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Author Topic: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread  (Read 30491 times)

hector13

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #360 on: January 27, 2024, 01:08:44 am »

That requires too many assumptions to be the simplest solution. At least this time one of your analogies is apt.

Also, as I said at the time, it isn’t a ridiculous leap in logic to think that the people dropping bombs from the sky are responsible for a bomb dropping from the sky.

US halts financing to UNRWA over Israeli accusations 12 employees were involved in October 7th attacks.

Funny how they still support Israel in spite of the four months of human rights violations, though.
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martinuzz

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #361 on: January 27, 2024, 01:57:40 am »

Israel can't realistically accept refugees from Gaza. It is a security nightmare...
True. Imagine te US or Europe taking in IS refugees. Not done. Don't import terrorists.
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martinuzz

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #362 on: January 27, 2024, 02:05:03 am »

Because they were helped home.
U wut mate? You lack historical knowledge.
Jews weren't helped home. Some jews in nazi occupied Europe were offered shelter during the war by brave individuals to escape deportation and extermination. They weren't helped home. After the war, European jews found their homes stolen, and European governments didn't help them at all with getting their homes back / getting home.
The survivors came back from Auschwitz and their shelters to find themselves unwanted and robbed. They didn't get their homes back. The government gave the rights to their homes to the thieves occupying them.
In the Netherlands, the government actually housed the surviving jews coming back from the destruction camps in Westerbork, the same fucking camp that the nazis used as jew storage before sending them to their deaths. The post-war dutch government also housed german occupiers there. It was a great time or those interred there for sure.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 02:28:09 am by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

King Zultan

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #363 on: January 27, 2024, 02:44:41 am »

I have been given the impression that a lot of the Jews that evacuated Germany at that time didn't want to go back even after the war because the potential for then to be killed for being Jewish.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #364 on: January 27, 2024, 03:21:34 am »

I have been given the impression that a lot of the Jews that evacuated Germany at that time didn't want to go back even after the war because the potential for then to be killed for being Jewish.
Well, you may have noticed that a lot of them didn't ever go back, so, yes, that seems to be a reasonable impression.

ETA: This is, of course... most of the reason we have an Israel thread in the first place, for one thing.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 03:38:53 am by Maximum Spin »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #365 on: January 27, 2024, 05:03:52 am »

Lel's not forget that Germans were not the only ones killing Jews in WW2. Every occupied country had many enthusiastic assistants. Let's not confuse heroes risking their lives to save Jews with the majority of Europeans who were either indifferent or outright assisted Germans. Jew-hatred is an old European tradition, Germans just refined it to "perfection".

One important thing to note is that many Jews fled (or were forcefully expelled) from Middle Eastern countries in 1950s\60s. Descendants of those are a huge chunk of the modern Israeli population and they have legitimate reasons to dislike Arabs (even if many of them are Arab-speaking to this day)
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scriver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #366 on: January 27, 2024, 06:15:57 am »

Also, as I said at the time, it isn’t a ridiculous leap in logic to think that the people dropping bombs from the sky are responsible for a bomb dropping from the sky.

That is true. The fault lies in the ignorance of the conflict showed by thinking Israel was the only people dropping bombs from the sky.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #367 on: January 27, 2024, 07:26:50 am »

Occam's Razor says the LEAST likely explanation would be Hamas opening fire on refugees to then blame it on the IDF.
The death toll from tank fire that hit a United Nations shelter in the Gaza Strip's main southern city of Khan Younis has risen to 12, a top U.N. aid official said Thursday.

UNRWA chief Philippe Lazzarini said in a post on social media that the bombardment showed a "blatant disregard of basic rules of war," noting that the compound had been clearly marked as a U.N. facility and its coordinates shared with Israeli authorities.
Coupled with them just openly doing it

pr1mezer0

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #368 on: January 27, 2024, 08:59:53 am »

For every approx 500 rockets fired since 2001 1 person has died, including palestinians. The rocket that hit the hospital carpark must have been one of those 'inverse' rockets. Taking the ratio to about 60-100 rockets per fatality, assuming 500 to 250 people killed at ahli.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 09:28:11 am by pr1mezer0 »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #369 on: January 27, 2024, 09:56:50 am »

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1751130327060246599

I am convinced now! Israeli snipers are killing random Palestinians for sport and fire at hospitals! Super reliable proof!  (500k followers... this world...)
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Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #370 on: January 27, 2024, 12:35:47 pm »

Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France [...]

It just feels completely pointless trying to explain why ethnic cleansing is bad. [...]

Israel: Voluntary migration.
Netherlands: Voluntary migration? Irresponsible!
UN and LW: Forced migration!? Genocide!

US halts financing to UNRWA over Israeli accusations 12 employees were involved in October 7th attacks.

Funny how they still support Israel in spite of the four months of human rights violations, though.

UNRWA wasn't receiving rocket fire before their staff assisted in a terrorist attack. Surely a difference in standards between a supposed humanitarian aid organization and a country at war isn't too unexpected?

Israel receives rockets while at "peace". That's why the US funds Israel's Iron Dome.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 12:47:43 pm by Bumber »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #371 on: January 27, 2024, 01:43:58 pm »

There is a very thin line between voluntary and forced migration and I have no doubts that a person like Ben Gvir will push that line as hard as he can but we have reached the point at which some people want to force the population of Gaza to stay in devastated Gaza even if they don't want to because it will help the cause of free Palestine. Perhaps. Few decades later... Meanwhile, ordinary Palestinians should suffer for someone else's political goals and agendas.

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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

hector13

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #372 on: January 27, 2024, 08:48:56 pm »

Also, as I said at the time, it isn’t a ridiculous leap in logic to think that the people dropping bombs from the sky are responsible for a bomb dropping from the sky.

That is true. The fault lies in the ignorance of the conflict showed by thinking Israel was the only people dropping bombs from the sky.

The fault lies in the 24-hour news cycle and the capitalist desire to break the news first. Gotta get those clicks before anyone else.

A falsehood can get around the world before the truth has got out of bed, and all that; clarification and verification takes time that the ones wanting the views don’t care about.

Kind of like what Strongpoint does, making unsupported claims while demanding evidence of claims other people make, or laughing off extensive citations as gibberish.



Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France [...]

It just feels completely pointless trying to explain why ethnic cleansing is bad. [...]

Israel: Voluntary migration.
Netherlands: Voluntary migration? Irresponsible!
UN and LW: Forced migration!? Genocide!

US halts financing to UNRWA over Israeli accusations 12 employees were involved in October 7th attacks.

Funny how they still support Israel in spite of the four months of human rights violations, though.

UNRWA wasn't receiving rocket fire before their staff assisted in a terrorist attack. Surely a difference in standards between a supposed humanitarian aid organization and a country at war isn't too unexpected?

Israel receives rockets while at "peace". That's why the US funds Israel's Iron Dome.

Oh the funding goes there, sure, but the stockpile of unguided bombs the US stores in Israel is also available to the IDF.

Quote
The report may be classified, but earlier this year an unusually candid description of the stockpile’s contents emerged when a former US military chief recalled in an op-ed touring the WRSA-I warehouse.

“The current stockpile is full of so-called dumb munitions [those without sophisticated guidance systems],” he said, including “thousands of ‘iron bombs’ that are simply dropped from aircraft so gravity can do its work”.

Quote
Defence analysts say there is little transparency about the categories and quantities of arms that the US is providing to Israel, but one transfer from WRSA-I emerged in October when Axios reported that the US would supply Israel with 155mm artillery shells. The unguided munitions, intended for Israel’s ground campaign in Gaza, were held in large volumes in WRSA-I.

The 155mm shells are particularly hazardous, according to Marc Garlasco, a former UN war crimes investigator, as each shell releases 2,000 lethal fragments, and “their accuracy degrades over distance, increasing the likelihood of civilians and civilian infrastructure getting hit by errant shells”.

Images published by Gaza police’s explosive ordnance disposal team last month appeared to show munition fragments of 155mm artillery shells being removed from buildings in Gaza. It is not known whether they were of US origin or from its stockpile.

The IDF and Israel’s defence ministry did not respond to requests for comment.

Quote
Former officials said that where transfers from WRSA-I can differ from regular arms sales between the US and another country was that the equipment can be drawn from the stockpile before the processes that account for the transferred equipment are fully completed.

“We sort of retroactively build a foreign military sales case, which may or may not need to be notified to Congress, depending on what they took and what quantities,” said Josh Paul, the former state department official.

Paul, who until October worked on the US’s foreign arms transfers, said he was concerned by the expedited process as it could bypass the state department’s pre-transfer controls. “There’s no review of human rights, there’s no review of regional balance, there’s none of the conventional arms transfer policy review that would normally happen,” he said. “Essentially, it’s take what you can and we’ll sort it out later.”

A Pentagon spokesperson acknowledged it was “using foreign military financing and sales authorities to expedite delivery of security assistance, where feasible”. They said the US was “leveraging several avenues and sources to provide Israel security assistance, to include stockpiles in Israel and the US.”

Arms control experts say the speed and opacity of these transfers make it difficult to understand what is leaving WRSA-I, the legal mechanisms used for drawdowns and the extent to which Congress is being made aware of what support the US is providing to Israel via the stockpile.

TL;dr: US stockpiles of unguided bombs and artillery in Israel are open to be used by the IDF before the paperwork to clear it is done, possibly beyond congressional oversight. These unguided weapons are then used in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, while Israel claims it’s doing its utmost to prevent civilian casualties in that area.

The difference in this instance is Israel - who has a long history of criticizing the UN and its agencies, particularly the UNRWA - has accused 12 employees of the UNRWA of supporting Hamas, who were then immediately fired and an investigation started, while Israel simultaneously violates the rights of the folks in Gaza by doing things like dropping bombs on areas they’ve told people to evacuate to, or blockading basic necessities from getting in.



There is a very thin line between voluntary and forced migration and I have no doubts that a person like Ben Gvir will push that line as hard as he can but we have reached the point at which some people want to force the population of Gaza to stay in devastated Gaza even if they don't want to because it will help the cause of free Palestine. Perhaps. Few decades later... Meanwhile, ordinary Palestinians should suffer for someone else's political goals and agendas.

What, ordinary Palestinians like the millions of refugees and their descendants that aren’t allowed back to their homeland by Israel despite international law saying they have that right? Meanwhile a foreign Jew who has never been to Israel is allowed to settle the West Bank and become an Israeli citizen.

I wonder what the political goal or agenda is in doing that, and how it relates to the way Israel is treating the Palestinians in Gaza now…
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Strongpoint

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #373 on: January 27, 2024, 09:14:20 pm »

UNRWA admits that they have 142 employees killed since the beginning of the war but refuses to tell their names. I guess it will be awkward if most of those are HAMAS members.

Of course, it is all slander, UNRWA employees are known to be good, peace-loving people

« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 09:21:36 pm by Strongpoint »
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

hector13

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #374 on: January 27, 2024, 09:53:00 pm »

UNRWA admits that they have 142 employees killed since the beginning of the war but refuses to tell their names. I guess it will be awkward if most of those are HAMAS members.

Citation needed.

Like, they’re so dedicated to keeping the names secret they read out the names of the dead.

Quote
Meanwhile, the UN Staff Union held a ceremony in the Secretariat lobby where the names of the deceased colleagues were read aloud.

Quote
Of course, it is all slander, UNRWA employees are known to be good, peace-loving people

UN Watch is a blatantly pro-Israel lobby group, emphasis mine:

Quote
Shortly after Goldstone's comments, UN Watch, a lobby group with strong ties to Israel, challenged the impartiality of one of the four members of the panel set up by the UN Human Rights Council on January 12.

UN Watch said it was formally seeking the withdrawal or disqualification of British law professor Christine Chinkin on the grounds that she had already publicly taken a stance accusing Israel of war crimes and violating human rights law during the Gaza offensive.

Its submission notably cited a letter published in The Sunday Times on January 11 that she jointly signed with other academics and lawyers.

The UN human rights office was unable to confirm immediately that the challenge had been filed or comment on its claims.

However, in that letter to the newspaper, Chinkin and the legal experts also took Hamas to task over suicide bombings and missiles fired into Israel, calling them war crimes.

They wanted her removed because she wasn’t impartial when she accused Israel of war crimes… even though she also accused Hamas of the same in the letter.

Equally so, UNRWA takes action when things like this are brought to their attention.

You claim the UN is corrupt and then post sources from pro-Israel organizations as though it’s supposed to mean anything.

I guess if we take this as an example of your position, does that mean if one Ukrainian soldier commits a war crime the entirety of the armed forces should be considered dishonorable war criminals?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.
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