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Author Topic: Goblin camp  (Read 30239 times)

kuribo

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2010, 01:06:48 pm »


Creating a new racing league because the current racing league is too burdened by rules that counter its initial purpose:  good excuse to "not like the direction it's going"

Noisily splitting from a racing league you're in because you don't like cars and motorcycles after all: retarded.


I wouldn't consider it "noisily."

And, further, your analogy is ridiculous. No one is splitting from a racing league because they don't like cars or motorcycles.

It's more like if the guy saw a racing league, and says, "Hey, I think I'd like to try my hand at that, and see what I can improve." So, he makes himself a racing league that races rocket cars instead of regular cars. Or tricycles. Different, but still kind of the same. So, he posts pictures of the site where he's going to build his new racetrack, and all of a sudden a bunch of fans of the first league start decrying it as horrible. "This track doesn't even have cars yet! Ptah!" "I like the old tracks better!" But it's kind of ridiculous--- since he's still building the track.

No one is, or ever will make you choose either or. You're allowed to watch both. And so what if he doesn't like the direction DF is going in? Lots of people don't. It's not my fault if the frothing, manic people that post here can't understand the fact that the military is next to useless. That being attacked by indestructible dwarf-eating monsters made of skin isn't "fun." That no matter how many times you ask for it, dealing with sewage will be a terrible idea. And, for the record, I happen to enjoy Dwarf Fortress. I will probably play Goblin Camp, as well. You see, just because you like Command and Conquer doesn't mean you can't play StarCraft, too.
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I OFTEN BURN WHITE HOT AND DRIFT LAZILY ACROSS THE STRATOSPHERE EMITTING PIERCING SCREAMS JUST LIKE THE REAL SUN

Beran Senae

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2010, 01:38:18 pm »

What people take issue with is the way Aryon is flamebaiting DF fans.  His marketing (if we're going to call it that - the game is likely to be freeware) is decidedly anti-DF, pandering to this "hurrr DF is too hard and complex, Toady needs to make his games consoletard-friendly" mentality that riles up the smart guys.

Has he even posted here? Or done any sort of marketing beyond "here, I'm making something like DF, this is my UI. It will be different"?
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2010, 01:43:25 pm »


What people take issue with is the way Aryon is flamebaiting DF fans.  His marketing (if we're going to call it that - the game is likely to be freeware) is decidedly anti-DF, pandering to this "hurrr DF is too hard and complex, Toady needs to make his games consoletard-friendly" mentality that riles up the smart guys.

Wait what? Where? When? Aryon has been excessively polite so far (and I'm following the SA thread, yes). What's your problem people?
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Mfbrew

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2010, 02:15:51 pm »

If you read the thread from the other site, it's a bunch of people bitching about how DF is too confusing for them now, and then Aryon (whose words are very polite, yes) jumping in like "it just so happens my game solves all your worries... I too am upset with the direction DF has taken."

Lame move, really.  While he is being very civil on the surface, he's using anti-DF bitterness to further his cause.  The whole "I have a small pet too" thing is kinda creepy on top of that.  You have to read between the lines a bit to see how the guy is trying to position himself.  Some of you are going to be too young to "get this" but it's a powerplay.   

I'm still interested to see how the game pans out.  I don't really see it cannibalizing any of DF's success since it's not the same kind of game.

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Jiri Petru

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2010, 02:21:55 pm »

Lame move, really.  While he is being very civil on the surface, he's using anti-DF bitterness to further his cause.  The whole "I have a small pet too" thing is kinda creepy on top of that.  You have to read between the lines a bit to see how the guy is trying to position himself.  Some of you are going to be too young to "get this" but it's a powerplay.   

This is maybe the problem.
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sweitx

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2010, 02:32:36 pm »

Lame move, really.  While he is being very civil on the surface, he's using anti-DF bitterness to further his cause.  The whole "I have a small pet too" thing is kinda creepy on top of that.  You have to read between the lines a bit to see how the guy is trying to position himself.  Some of you are going to be too young to "get this" but it's a powerplay.   

This is maybe the problem.

In all seriousness, the "read between a line" is a valid point to make.  If he were just to say that he wants to make a DF-inspired game that would be fine.  But it is his comments surrounding the creation of the game (disparaging DF, making veiled connection that he's just like Toady, etc) that makes it creepy.

EDIT: Case in point, how does suddenly mentioning a german shepherd puppy has anything to do with the rest of his comment?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 02:34:28 pm by sweitx »
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One of the toads decided to go for a swim in the moat - presumably because he could path through the moat to my dwarves. He is not charging in, just loitering in the moat.

The toad is having a nice relaxing swim.
The goblin mounted on his back, however, is drowning.

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2010, 02:38:11 pm »

This is just my opinion, of course, since apparently nowadays that needs a disclaimer around here...

Aryon's posts come across as a passive-aggressive douche that isn't directly insulting Toady, but is a coder doing what Toady doesn't want that has resulted from Aryon capitalizing from/in DF players' (and wannabe players) love/hate relationship with the UI. Maybe later it'll grow into a different game. I don't find that his attitude is helping things, as he's certainly not making an effort to quell the flames.

And before all the new SA trolls come screaming in about fanboyism, I've made it known where I think DF could use improvements - I've made an honest contribution to help through bug-reporting, voicing frustrations with such, donating.

Snarky comments that are basically "oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game" and "I have a puppy instead", which while maintaining a polite tone, is quiet, calculating character assassination against Toady - who does in fact listen and has listened to us. Do some of you not see it as such, backstabbing?

Sorry, as a guy who prides himself on being able to read intentions somewhat decently, I just see someone stroking his own ego as, "look at me I'm just like that guy but better - play my game".

Nothing personal against Aryon, since dorf games are serious business. I won't be playing it unless he adopts an attitude adjustment.

And the anti-DF/Toady crowd expressing hopes that it puts Toady out of business. Nice.

Footkerchief

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2010, 02:43:16 pm »

EDIT: Case in point, how does suddenly mentioning a german shepherd puppy has anything to do with the rest of his comment?
"I have a puppy instead", which while maintaining a polite tone, is quiet, calculating character assassination against Toady

It was a joking answer to a quoted joking question, which for some reason was omitted from the copy-paste.  You guys are pretty clearly arguing in bad faith if that's all the effort you're making to understand Aryoc.

"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"

It's amazing how evil you can make someone sound when you put words in their mouth.

He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
His "Demo" makes a big point of showing off his UI.
He didn't talk about anything else the game has. It's just a fancy UI, and that made because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.

Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it.

I still don't get this.  How is he asking for it?  One of the things he doesn't like about DF's current direction is the lack of UI, so he's showing off a better UI.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 02:48:53 pm by Footkerchief »
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systema

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2010, 02:47:42 pm »

Sorry bros but the only reason he even mentioned an animal was because someone else in the thread specifically asked him about it.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2010, 03:00:23 pm »

It was a joking answer to a quoted joking question, which for some reason was omitted from the copy-paste.  You guys are pretty clearly arguing in bad faith if that's all the effort you're making to understand Aryoc.

"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"

It's amazing how evil you can make someone sound when you put words in their mouth.

Sorry, I'm putting words in his mouth when it's clearly what he's doing. Well, you decide for yourself. I've decided.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3293395&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=86

Quote from: Aryoc
The Cheshire Cat posted:
Quote
Make sure to add in PROPER graphical support though, not the "tileset" support that DF has where sometimes you end up with letters in actual text being replaced by graphics, because that character is used to represent something in the game world as well. There's nothing wrong with placeholder graphics, you just don't want to code yourself into a corner where it gets extremely difficult to replace said placeholder graphics.

Yeah don't worry, I'll implement tileset support, not "replace the font with sprites and hope for the best".

Quote from: Aryoc
No worries, I know what happens when you want to put in everything possible in your game, it just turns into an enormous pile of half-done and half-planned features. I'm doing my best to keep things in focus, and work on the things that really matter playability-wise. Especially now that people are interested in GC I'm working to get a playable version out, but I also don't want to release anything too unfinished. Also before anyone says it, I'm not rushing things and coding poorly just to get something out the door.

Quote from: Aryoc
I'm doing my best to get a version out for people to try, feedback is really important. Of course I have my own vision for what I want, but I also want to hear peoples ideas. For example some dude on the bay12 forums mentioned someone else's UI idea that had a scrolling announcements box, so I just implemented that 5 minutes ago. It's a better idea than just seeing one at a time, and I don't know why I didn't think of it too. Just goes to show that sometimes listening to others is a good idea.

Quote from: Aryoc
It'd be a project in itself to make some kind of overlay utility for DF, I really don't see any point. DF really needs a lot more than just some utilities.

Quote from: Aryoc
Funny you should mention both of these things. I have items / constructions / creatures defined in XML files exactly for the ease of modification and addition, and I also have pathfinding done in it's own thread to use multiple cores, which most people have these days.

Quote from: Aryoc
I definitely want this to be it's own game and not just a clone. I'm going to go in a different direction, but the basics are going to be pretty similar.

I'm making a similar game to DF. DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.

Sorry Foot, I disagree with you there.

It's the exact same shit Impaler used to pull and oh, how convenient. He posted about his little DF-clone project there on the DF thread right after Goblin Camp was mentioned.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 03:07:13 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2010, 03:05:19 pm »

Sorry, I'm putting words in his mouth when it's clearly what he's doing. Well, you decide for yourself. I've decided.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3293395&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=86

You really think that criticizing someone's work amounts to "character assassination"?  Are you angry about his criticisms, or about the fact that he's building them into a game?

I'm making a similar game to DF. DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.

You're putting words in his mouth again.  In particular, I have no idea who you're attributing the "DF is-too-hard" sentiment to, or what bearing it has on anything.  If you find yourself making up quotes to characterize someone else's position, that's a good indication that you should take a moment to calm down.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 03:09:53 pm by Footkerchief »
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2010, 03:09:21 pm »

I'm not angry about it. Like I said it's nothing personal.

Are we in agreement that you can make criticism of a game without the thinly disguised "I'm making a panacea to solve all your problems (unlike that guy), here play my game".

See what I posted about Impaler. Same shit, different person.

It's cute really.

Foot: How do you say I'm making up quotes? That's what he said. Like I said, other people can decide.

In fact, reading all the in between makes it seem more like character assassination.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 03:13:09 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2010, 03:10:43 pm »

I can't recall any English saying that goes for this but we have a nice one here in Czech Republic: "If you really want to beat the dog, you'll always find a stick".
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redhalo

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2010, 03:12:39 pm »

I'm not angry about it. Like I said it's nothing personal.

Are we in agreement that you can make criticism of a game without the thinly disguised "I'm making a panacea to solve all your problems (unlike that guy), here play my game".

See what I posted about Impaler. Same shit, different person.

How would you have preferred him to have answered the questions without stating what he would do different?
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Beran Senae

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Re: Goblin camp
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2010, 03:15:50 pm »

Snarky comments that are basically "oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game" and "I have a puppy instead", which while maintaining a polite tone, is quiet, calculating character assassination against Toady - who does in fact listen and has listened to us. Do some of you not see it as such, backstabbing?

Oh, so you're a crazy person then. I'd go get that checked out, they have medication for people that see threats where there aren't any.


Quote from: Aryoc
Yeah don't worry, I'll implement tileset support, not "replace the font with sprites and hope for the best".

He's describing exactly what Toady (I'd hope) is planning on. He's just saying he'll use a different source for text graphics and character graphics.

Quote from: Aryoc
No worries, I know what happens when you want to put in everything possible in your game, it just turns into an enormous pile of half-done and half-planned features. I'm doing my best to keep things in focus, and work on the things that really matter playability-wise. Especially now that people are interested in GC I'm working to get a playable version out, but I also don't want to release anything too unfinished. Also before anyone says it, I'm not rushing things and coding poorly just to get something out the door.

Any programmer worth his salt will tell you the same thing. I'd like to point out that DF is filled with a ton of half finished and half planned features. It's still fun, but that's the truth.

Quote from: Aryoc
I'm doing my best to get a version out for people to try, feedback is really important. Of course I have my own vision for what I want, but I also want to hear peoples ideas. For example some dude on the bay12 forums mentioned someone else's UI idea that had a scrolling announcements box, so I just implemented that 5 minutes ago. It's a better idea than just seeing one at a time, and I don't know why I didn't think of it too. Just goes to show that sometimes listening to others is a good idea.

So, saying that he's learned listening to people is a good thing sometimes is bad? Again, he's not saying that Toady doesn't-in fact, Toady keeps a pretty clear line of communication with his fans-so maybe you're projecting?


Quote from: Aryoc
It'd be a project in itself to make some kind of overlay utility for DF, I really don't see any point. DF really needs a lot more than just some utilities.

Way to quote out of context, he's just saying that he wouldn't be able to port his UI directly into DF without having access to the source. Again, common sense.

Quote from: Aryoc
Funny you should mention both of these things. I have items / constructions / creatures defined in XML files exactly for the ease of modification and addition, and I also have pathfinding done in it's own thread to use multiple cores, which most people have these days.

PEOPLE WERE ASKING HIM HOW IT WAS CODED. THIS IS AN ANSWER TO A QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED.

Quote from: KaelGotDwarves, not Aryoc
I'm making a similar game to DF. DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.

So... saying he does things like a competent coder is an attack on Toady to you?

Wow, with fans like you, he doesn't need trolls. (Also one of the common complaints at SA is that behind the bugs the game is too easy.)

Edit: Well, that's what I get for not using preview!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 03:26:38 pm by Beran Senae »
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