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[Grim Portent]

Also @Grim portent
FAQdrafts are coming out, apparently if raiders jink all the occupants snap fire now.
Makes them less great.

I've seen that, major sadface for DE    but since Webway Portals are a thing I'll probably go for a very deep strikey and assaulty force.

I'm thinking a lot of Covens formations deepstriking in with Haemonculi, a pain bomb done using a Harlequin formation and some Archons and whatever else I absolutely need to get my Deep Strikers in Raiders/Venoms with the plan of just rushing forward to jump out. Maybe some Scalpel Squadron formations as well for some turn 1 deep striking.

When I first looked into DE several years back (towards the end of 5th edition I think) I was wanting to do a Kabalite force with lots of Raiders and Scourges, but these days I rather like the Coven aesthetic, and it suits my preferred methods of killing since Covens focus on close combat.

[LordBaal]

In Dead on the Water of Ciaphas Cain there's something that resembles a pt43 (at least it's description sounds like one). Dunno if is standard issue for the IG or was something designed on the planet.

[GiglameshDespair]

One of the deff skwadron stories is about them sinking the Grimlug, a giant battleship.
Orks, obviously.

[Tack]

When I first looked into DE several years back (towards the end of 5th edition I think) I was wanting to do a Kabalite force with lots of Raiders and Scourges, but these days I rather like the Coven aesthetic, and it suits my preferred methods of killing since Covens focus on close combat.

Yeah, last I played against DE was the MC formation, and it was kind of scary. The pain engines did work, although you never know how any force will go in the new knight-y meta.
Spam those darklances.

[pisskop]

here i am lying in bed, with moist bits and lazy that, and a question about ai pops up through a thought train about self repair robots.



Ive got a basic overview grasp on 40k lore by now, but names, dates, locations etc are meh.


So if belief spawns demons and people by the literal billions believe in a machine spirit, why no machine spirit demon?

i understand that the machine spirit is a unique entity within each weapon, per se, but all that worship?  Titans gets buttloads of worship, shoupd not their machine spirit exist as a demon?

if machine spirits have demon analogues,  than what about emperor Midas? where is his worship going.  who is it feeding?

on that line, what is the religious perview of the tau?  i dont kniw if that greater good is communistic enough to enough preclude religion...

[Rolan7]

I am far from an expert, really just a dabbler, but I feel like contributing my limited, possibly inaccurate understanding:
The Imperial machine cult worships the Omnissiah, the Machine God (not to be confused with the God Machine).  It might actually be a C'tan (Necron god) living inside Mars.  Or maybe it's forming into an unchaotic warp god like the Emperor might.  (Probably far less fond of humanity, though).

If that sounds like heresy, it really is.  But the Mechanicus is so useful that there's an ancient treaty allowing them to worship the Omnissiah, because the alternative would have been devastating war with Mars.  I think the Emperor himself negotiated that.

The machine spirits might not manifest as demons because they're already "alive" as thinking machines.  Even though AI "Abominable Intelligence" is absolutely forbidden, it's obviously happening to some degree.  They just write it off as the "machine spirit".

Those AIs would be in a similar boat to Tau, who practically don't have souls.  Too young.  That's why the Tau are mostly immune to chaos corruption, and possibly why they have to use shitty realspace travel instead of the warp.  Though the Ethereals might have some kind of psychic power, they're weird.  Might not be warp related.

[GiglameshDespair]

It's not actually clear what machine spirits are, to how much extent they exist, whether they're messes of scrap code left over from the Horus Heresy etc, so the answer is who knows? It's not really "get worshipped and turn into a demon" quite as much as you might be thinking, either. Machine spirits are venerated - as machine spirits.

Who do you mean, Emperor Midas? Do you just mean the Emperor? Because worshipping him would give him the worship. It's possible when/if he dies he'll turn into a god of order, rather than chaos. He might already have his own demon equivalents - the legion of the damned, living saints, etc.

The Tau Ethereals teach secular beliefs. They are aware of the existence of Choas, but much like the Emperor did they lie to their followers. It's not quite bit them in the ass as much, because Tau are bland and uninteresting (as well as to Chaos), but most Tau would neither know of nor believe in the various deities and spirits existing in 40k.

[KingofstarrySkies]

It's hinted at that the Ethereals somehow got that weird psychic shit from something Eldar related, I think.

[Tack]

Yeah the Omnissah is specifically only allowed to be worshipped as a facet of the emperor, by the way, much like the Fenrisians and Space Wolves actually worship the 'All-Father'. If they ever diverge from calling him the Omnissah, then there's possible heretical infiltration, and then they clear it out. (Sauce, Soul Drinkers omnibi)

It's the same principle the Inquisition uses for most feudal and primitive worlds - they usually won't be spot-on to the imperial cult, and to do so would involve them learning too much about technology and science, so they allow the primitive secular worship to continue, and monitor it for any chaos-y influence.

[Rolepgeek]

Those AIs would be in a similar boat to Tau, who practically don't have souls.  Too young.  That's why the Tau are mostly immune to chaos corruption, and possibly why they have to use shitty realspace travel instead of the warp.  Though the Ethereals might have some kind of psychic power, they're weird.  Might not be warp related.

It is just pure inspiration, comrade

Do you not believe in the True Message of the Ethereals? That is okay. We all doubt sometimes. The Enthusiasm Assistance Centers are just down the street, just say Aun'nel Trustbound sent you. They'll fix you right up.

The Tau Ethereals teach secular beliefs. They are aware of the existence of Choas, but much like the Emperor did they lie to their followers. It's not quite bit them in the ass as much, because Tau are bland and uninteresting (as well as to Chaos), but most Tau would neither know of nor believe in the various deities and spirits existing in 40k.

Far as I know they mostly lie by omission. They're sensible enough to give a rundown to the people who'll be fighting it. Warp is very obviously a thing, so's psychic powers. They've incorporated several psychic races, and had to fight Chaos on a few occasions. Mind, they lie about the scale of it, certainly, much like they do about the scale of the Imperium. If the average citizen were to realize just how big of a beast they were prodding at, they might be less...supportive, of the current war efforts.

But yeah Tau are indeed Great Crusade 2.0: Xenos Edition

[Kot]

It's the same principle the Inquisition uses for most feudal and primitive worlds - they usually won't be spot-on to the imperial cult, and to do so would involve them learning too much about technology and science, so they allow the primitive secular worship to continue, and monitor it for any chaos-y influence.

Everyone on Backwater IV knows that  the almighty Gott Emperor got shanked by His son, Primal Horse. This event is known as Horse Hairesy.
*insert image of a horse with very spiky hair that is held up in air by rage and teenage frustration*

[LoSboccacc]

The machine spirits might not manifest as demons because they're already "alive" as thinking machines.  Even though AI "Abominable Intelligence" is absolutely forbidden, it's obviously happening to some degree.  They just write it off as the "machine spirit".

eh I initially thought hogwash from the uneducated as well but then the machine spirit might actually be c'tan shards from under mars so there's that.

[Andres]

Alright, seeing as how you uneducated swine are clearly in need of some enlightenment, I'm going to take some time out of my busy day to hammer in some knowledge so that you'll all be slightly less of an embarrassment to yourselves.

So if belief spawns demons and people by the literal billions believe in a machine spirit, why no machine spirit demon?

First, let's start with daemons. Daemons are not technically spawned by belief. Daemons are shards of the Chaos Gods much like how living cells make up an organism. Said Chaos Gods are formed from the collective emotions of every living thing that has a soul and are empowered but not created by belief.

Everything in the material world is reflected in the Warp. The reflection of a human is called a soul. The reflection of a machine is called a machine spirit. Machine spirits thus differ from daemons as daemons are an inherently different thing - an incarnation of emotion rather than an immaterial reflection of a material object.

Machine spirits also differ from souls in that souls are born from living things inherently capable of emotion while machine spirits only gain things such as personality, power, and free will from complexity and being psychically imprinted on by souls. Said imprinting is done through many ways. Devotion and prayer is a common one, but simply being used by a soulful being is another. A power sword wielded by someone who hates aliens and is used to kill many aliens will be imprinted on by the wielder, making it hate aliens and increasing its power against them even if the wielder does not pray and thank the machine spirit.

Common myths about machine spirits:
1. Machine spirits are actually extensions of/created by a C'tan. FALSE. As explained, machine spirits are created by the psychic imprinting of those around them, not a star god.
2. Machine spirits are artificial intelligence. FALSE. AI is a machine with will while a machine spirit can be considered to be the will of the machine. Similar-sounding ideas but they go in completely different directions which is why AI is abhorrent while machine spirits are holy.
3. Machine spirits are shards of artificial intelligence. FALSE. A shard of artificial intelligence is nothing but a few lines of programming, as significant as a chunk of splattered brain matter and kept out of machine by simply not intentionally including them. Machine spirits are their own thing created by psychic imprinting and are spiritual rather than material programming.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Don't listen to this drivel. The Cult of Mars has been plotting against the Imperium from within ever since the Great Crusade. Even being shown the Emperor's hand in friendship could not turn these abomination lovers from their path of esoteria and desecration of the holy human form.

FACT: The Cult of Mars secretly worships the Void Dragon, in betrayal of our Emperor.
FACT: They hold no loyalty to the Imperium and place it underfoot for the sake of their false god every single day.
FACT: Machine Spirits are the daemons of the Void Dragon and are poised to turn against humanity at any moment.
FACT: Mechanicus tech-slaves are no longer human, but nightmarish contraptions of metal fused to rotting corpses of once proud men.

Tear down these traitors! Let Mars burn in the fire of the Emperor's wrath!

[LoSboccacc]

FALSE. FALSE. FALSE.

that's like, your opinion, maaaaaan


edit: on a different note, anyone that works on a computer daily knows pretty well the machine spirit is real and hates you.