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[MrRoboto75]

It's the same story with comic books. They were less popular among women at the time they were created. Likewise, steps were taken to increase female participation by creating actual female characters, many of which were just derivative versions of their male counterparts. (She-Hulk for example, Super Girl, but in to the 90s plenty of unique badass superheroines as well.) Recently there has been the push to equally represent women using classic characters, and some studios went that route. It's their IP. But I think it's telling which ones they DIDN'T allow to become female. They didn't make Captain America a female. They didn't make Iron Man a woman. They didn't make Wolverine a woman.

As pointed out, they did. Which sometimes strikes me as very odd. I don't have anything against women replacing traditionally male characters in capestuff, but I feel like it should make sense and not be forced just due to a weird trend that's caused by this push to shove women everywhere as a rule. I don't follow comics a lot, but when I sometimes read up for the sake of some argument or something, it's really odd to me that suddenly nearly all important heroes are replaced by female counterparts.

Comics do kinda need it sometimes.  Seriously, name a DC character that isn't white.

Problem is, creating 100% new comic book characters almost never works.  If it isn't an A-list character or derived from it the book will not sell.  There's been plenty of pushed hard new characters or c-list characters with recurring series that just get made and cancelled over and over again.  While the sensible thing for diversity would be to make entirely new characters who happen to fulfill diversity, it won't sell.  But just making say Thor a female might just.

But yeah, the list of successful comic book characters that aren't say 20+ years old as a concept is really short.

[Kot]

Comics do kinda need it sometimes.  Seriously, name a DC character that isn't white.

I know little and care even less about DC, but Martian Manhunter is non-white. Aliens aside, the only one I could name from the top of my head is Cyborg, but I think that's somewhat modern character.

[ArchAIngel]

Well, if nothing else, this is reminding me of why I like the more egalitarian xenos factions.

I don't think there are many (I'd say any, but I guess some one-liners from the bottom of some Codex can be), but I'm somewhat confused at what's occurring here.

Given his comment, I believe he's saying that he likes Orkish society.


Which isn't wrong, so long as you truly believe that standing on the biggest hill of corpses with the biggest gun and biggest choppa is the best option. For Orks, it works, because they're not human. Humans have empathy, and the ability to hold grudges.

[LordBaal]

You bunch of heretics! Look what you have done to His most sacred thread! Be warned the Emprah is watching and judging in silence... just like a cat.

I'm just happy we migth have a 40k tv show and that I migth live to see it. Hoping it doesn't suck and is not streamlined so far or twisted by the catchy trend of the moment as not being 40k anymore. As long as Brad Pitt is not producing it, things will be fine I guess.

[spazyak]

I imagine a michael Bay directed space marine movie would be good though, big dumb and full of bolter fire and explosions.

[nenjin]

If people want to get angry that many guys like guy stuff and many women like woman stuff, fine. Them being angry about it doesn't change objective reality, or invalidate things that fly in the face of that example. People seriously need to knock off the "you can't like this thing" bullshit. As though entertainment is a finite resource and we all have to agree on one format for the way things have to be. I've known women who like 40k for what it is, I know guys who like things I personally will never get in to because I don't find stories about teen girls and their social circles interesting. That's fine. The idea that creative works need to change to fit someone else's paradigm is stupid though, and undercuts the individuality and uniqueness of the effort. F.A.T.A.L may be the most face palming, awkward RPG ever made, but I'm not going to be like "It shouldn't exist!" or "It needs to get rid of anal circumference to make me happy!"

As for the meta reasons why 40k is the way it is, they may be less interesting but I think they're more truthful than in-universe explanations. It's easy to use lore to cover for a business decision. For example, the Tau.

[Kot]

Given his comment, I believe he's saying that he likes Orkish society.


Which isn't wrong, so long as you truly believe that standing on the biggest hill of corpses with the biggest gun and biggest choppa is the best option. For Orks, it works, because they're not human. Humans have empathy, and the ability to hold grudges.

It actually is wrong. Orks are very much non-egalitarian. I mean, come on, their whole society is built upon the exploitation of weaker Orks and Orkoids to the point of slavery and sentient livestock, there is a lot of killing and otherwise mutilating the weaker ones over no real reason except that they were in wrong place at the wrong time (and Orks do certainly hold grudges against each other). If you're unlucky Ork some Nob will kick your teeth in and thus deprive you of money just because he's bigger, and so on, and so on. Your birth determines even more in Ork society than it does in Tau society, Ork society puts even more focus on the cult of personality than Imperium does, while also being even more focused on personal strength and ability to dominate others than Chaos is, combined with truly Eldar level feeling of superiority, hatred for everything else rivaling Necrons, and the capability to inflict such torture on even their own kind that it makes Dark Eldar aroused. Orks are anything but egalitarian, they're a society of literally high school bullies taken to the extreme. It has became popular to just focus on the "ha-ha funny space joke guys made for fightin'", but they're hardly positive in any way.

[ArchAIngel]

Given his comment, I believe he's saying that he likes Orkish society.


Which isn't wrong, so long as you truly believe that standing on the biggest hill of corpses with the biggest gun and biggest choppa is the best option. For Orks, it works, because they're not human. Humans have empathy, and the ability to hold grudges.

It actually is wrong. Orks are very much non-egalitarian. I mean, come on, their whole society is built upon the exploitation of weaker Orks and Orkoids to the point of slavery and sentient livestock, there is a lot of killing and otherwise mutilating the weaker ones over no real reason except that they were in wrong place at the wrong time (and Orks do certainly hold grudges against each other). If you're unlucky Ork some Nob will kick your teeth in and thus deprive you of money just because he's bigger, and so on, and so on. Your birth determines even more in Ork society than it does in Tau society, Ork society puts even more focus on the cult of personality than Imperium does, while also being even more focused on personal strength and ability to dominate others than Chaos is, combined with truly Eldar level feeling of superiority, hatred for everything else rivaling Necrons, and the capability to inflict such torture on even their own kind that it makes Dark Eldar aroused. Orks are anything but egalitarian, they're a society of literally high school bullies taken to the extreme. It has became popular to just focus on the "ha-ha funny space joke guys made for fightin'", but they're hardly positive in any way.

While mostly I'd agree, this is somewhat wrong.


Orks don't do birth status, every Warboss or Nob is grown from a Yoof, who fought their way up. If you want to be the Boss, beat the Boss up. It's not FAIR, but any Ork can be a Warboss.


And yes, for humans they're awful, but Orks don't generally care. Evil Sun Rising comes to mind, where 2 Meks are fighting in their Stompas and ripping up the camp, throwing tanks at one another, and when one wins, everyone goes to congratulate the winner and mock the loser. Nobody cares that they were fighting, or that lots of other Orks died. To everyone else they're monsters, but to them it's all one big, messy game. Other depictions do exist, I grant, but I generally prefer how alien that is. That so long as fun is had, then it's fine that you die in huge numbers.


Otherwise, quite right. Big ego, enormous focus on personal power, no real HATRED I can remember Orks showing though beyond the most petty.

[Digital Hellhound]

I know it's mostly lore people here, but on my second day of obsessing over tiny plastic dudes, I've gone on a mad kitbashing spree. I'm basically putting together Feudal World Guardsmen, and was wondering if you had tips for good models/kits to use for this.

I've got this guy, who I call Captain Hogan for his similarity to Hulk Hogan. I see him as an old hunter who got his own specialist unit, devoted to his king, whose proclamation he carries on his back. He lost one arm in battle, but it was replaced by the regiment's finest blacksmiths with an arm of iron.

He's made up of a pair of Cadian Shock Troop legs, a Fantasy torso from some Empire kit, one musket from the same kit with a lasgun head replacing the musket head and a Space Marine Command Squad scope on top, one armored arm (a crude augmetic), an Empire head with a Cadian helmet on it, and a Space Marine something on his back. Might add a pouch or something still.

Spoiler: Pics (click to show/hide)

He's got obvious problems - his legs and torso don't match, his lasmusket scope prevents one arm from fitting, his head is out of position, and some of my cutting looks pretty bad. Still, I like the way he's shaping up. I can fix most of these when I get my hands on some putty.

So, any tips? Ideas for characters? Other comments?

[sprinkled chariot]

I know it's mostly lore people here, but on my second day of obsessing over tiny plastic dudes, I've gone on a mad kitbashing spree. I'm basically putting together Feudal World Guardsmen, and was wondering if you had tips for good models/kits to use for this.

I've got this guy, who I call Captain Hogan for his similarity to Hulk Hogan. I see him as an old hunter who got his own specialist unit, devoted to his king, whose proclamation he carries on his back. He lost one arm in battle, but it was replaced by the regiment's finest blacksmiths with an arm of iron.

He's made up of a pair of Cadian Shock Troop legs, a Fantasy torso from some Empire kit, one musket from the same kit with a lasgun head replacing the musket head and a Space Marine Command Squad scope on top, one armored arm (a crude augmetic), an Empire head with a Cadian helmet on it, and a Space Marine something on his back. Might add a pouch or something still.

Spoiler: Pics (click to show/hide)

He's got obvious problems - his legs and torso don't match, his lasmusket scope prevents one arm from fitting, his head is out of position, and some of my cutting looks pretty bad. Still, I like the way he's shaping up. I can fix most of these when I get my hands on some putty.

So, any tips? Ideas for characters? Other comments?

admech skitarii rangers box has lots of awesome baroque looking guns and vanguard helmet(which are really really sallet helmet design inspired)
This is personal opinion, but cadian helmet sort of unmakes whole feudal worlder thing, especially if there is access to fantasy battles empire set.

[Trekkin]

they're hardly positive in any way.

And it's this that I like most about them: everyone agrees they're universally and irredeemably horrible, so nobody gets defensive trying to bend over backwards justifying them as the best of series of bad alternatives or somehow tragic or something. They're similar to Tyranids and old-style Necrons in that regard, but not quite so alien that trying to tell stories with them feels weird. And, you know, they're funny in a way that reminds me of old 40k.

That's mostly what I do with 40k, by the by: I run pnpRPGs in it. Orks, in this regard, have the inestimable advantage of being quintessentially WYSIWYG: I can ask if people want to play horrible fungus monsters that fight everything they can reach and nothing anybody's going to find in 40k lore is going to meaningfully disagree with that characterization, outside of that one Eldar philsopher. That every Ork barring Oddboyz is born (sprouted?) with the same total lack of rights in Orkish society and the same opportunities (take whatever you can grab, hold whatever you can defend, boss around whoever can't fight back and win) is handy as well from a gameplay perspective, and nobody tries to argue that that's in any way as it should be.

[Kot]

While mostly I'd agree, this is somewhat wrong.


Orks don't do birth status, every Warboss or Nob is grown from a Yoof, who fought their way up. If you want to be the Boss, beat the Boss up. It's not FAIR, but any Ork can be a Warboss.

Of course they do. Gretchin and Snotlings (and Squids for that matter) are still Orkoids and despite being born from exact same spores they are treated as slaves and/or aforementioned sentient food. That's way more extreme than Tau Castes.

And yes, for humans they're awful, but Orks don't generally care. Evil Sun Rising comes to mind, where 2 Meks are fighting in their Stompas and ripping up the camp, throwing tanks at one another, and when one wins, everyone goes to congratulate the winner and mock the loser. Nobody cares that they were fighting, or that lots of other Orks died. To everyone else they're monsters, but to them it's all one big, messy game. Other depictions do exist, I grant, but I generally prefer how alien that is. That so long as fun is had, then it's fine that you die in huge numbers.

The loser cares. Also, they're not only awful to each other, they're awful to literally everyone else. Fucking Chaos Space Marines were disgusted at Prax with the Ork cruel treatment of human cattle (I agree this is not really accurate for most Orks, since War of The Beast was somewhat unique). Black Templars and Iron Warriors fought together against Orks, that has to say something (they promptly started shooting each other soon after, but oh well).

Otherwise, quite right. Big ego, enormous focus on personal power, no real HATRED I can remember Orks showing though beyond the most petty.

Of course there is hatred. Have you ever seen a portrayal of Ork going against humans, especially unarmed? They don't just kill because they find killing funny, they find cruelty funny.

And it's this that I like most about them: everyone agrees they're universally and irredeemably horrible, so nobody gets defensive trying to bend over backwards justifying them as the best of series of bad alternatives or somehow tragic or something. They're similar to Tyranids and old-style Necrons in that regard, but not quite so alien that trying to tell stories with them feels weird. And, you know, they're funny in a way that reminds me of old 40k.

Someone just called them egalitarian, and unless I am reading it wrong, it was basically a remark how they're somehow better than Imperium is. "That one Eldar philosopher" seems to be required reading for humanity detractors these days.

That's mostly what I do with 40k, by the by: I run pnpRPGs in it. Orks, in this regard, have the inestimable advantage of being quintessentially WYSIWYG: I can ask if people want to play horrible fungus monsters that fight everything they can reach and nothing anybody's going to find in 40k lore is going to meaningfully disagree with that characterization, outside of that one Eldar philsopher. That every Ork barring Oddboyz is born (sprouted?) with the same total lack of rights in Orkish society and the same opportunities (take whatever you can grab, hold whatever you can defend, boss around whoever can't fight back and win) is handy as well from a gameplay perspective, and nobody tries to argue that that's in any way as it should be.

Unless you are born as one of the lesser Orkoids, and as you said, since Oddboyz are not something that any regular Ork can achieve, they do not have the same opportunities, and even with that exception, various Ork clan affiliations seem to be coded into them the same way as being an Oddboy is. Unless you're going to argue that one Ork having a giant hard-on for going fast while the other liking going sneaky is an effect of... upbringing, or something.

[Tack]

In other news, I'm trying painting again after... seven years?

Spoiler: Pics (click to show/hide)

Nice painting dude.

[LordBaal]

Stuff you said

But Orks per se aren't bound by birth beyond perhaps the weirdboys and maybe meks. As for the other creatures, while orkoid aren't proper orks. Is like saying mammals are constrained by birth, but making a comparison between a human and a horse, we do have mammal cattle and "slaves". Unless there's also a dna trait that defines ork leaders.

Also while malice is indeed a trait hate not so much, they are just that way and the only hate they migth show to you is if you die too soon or don't present a proper fighting.

We could prolong this as a lengthy conversation about ethics, sentience and what not, but you and I know that the only study orks are better is how to kill them in His name.

[Kot]

But Orks per se aren't bound by birth beyond perhaps the weirdboys and maybe meks. As for the other creatures, while orkoid aren't proper orks. Is like saying mammals are constrained by birth, but making a comparison between a human and a horse, we do have mammal cattle and "slaves". Unless there's also a dna trait that defines ork leaders.

Horses aren't sentient, and they aren't born from the same mother that a human child is. All Orkoids are for all intents and purposes the same species, just with different races. Humanity generally stopping to have cattle and slaves of different races (not species) was a big thing a while ago, I recall. Even if you do consider them different species, they're still sentient livestock. Imperium doesn't do that, Dark Eldar don't really do that (they keep slaves for pain, and while I guess serving man is not exactly off the table, so to speak, they don't do it on industrial scale), heck, even the despicable Tau pretty much try to not do that.
Also, is there a DNA trait that defines Ork leaders? Maybe. I don't really know. It might be something related to insane Waagh psychology, considering Margaret Thatcher used to be completely unimportant until he got half his brain vaporized and thus started believing really hard he's the most important Ork, and I wouldn't rule out "predisposition to believing in self-importance" being one of traits they get programmed into them, considering a case could be made for a lot of similarly psychological traits being a genetic trait, like aforementioned predispositions towards going fast.

Also while malice is indeed a trait hate not so much, they are just that way and the only hate they migth show to you is if you die too soon or don't present a proper fighting.

Which is about everyone (except Yarrick, apparently, but he has a very weird relationship with Ghazkull and it's better to not get into details). It really seems to come down to interpretation and what portrayal is in question, but considering how Orks are also extremely sure of being the best ones around, and whatnot, they do really hate "inferior" races. Just because they're laughing and taking pleasure from murdering people, doesn't mean they don't hate the people they're murdering.

We could prolong this as a lengthy conversation about ethics, sentience and what not, but you and I know that the only study orks are better is how to kill them in His name.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)