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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1008516 times)

jipehog

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11760 on: March 15, 2023, 08:57:34 pm »

and lower retirement age as well.

Most nuclear power plants do not have a long enough lifespan to make cheap fuel worth the investment. Not to mention that running a nuclear plant requires more than just the fuel. Skilled staff, high security, just to mention a few. Nuclear power is expensive power.

Also a Russian company control much (most? over 50% iirc) of the nuclear fuel market, so if you push to phase out gas to reduced dependence on Russia it's a catch 22
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11761 on: March 16, 2023, 07:07:28 am »

Even the BBC has pictures of tractors and upside down dutch flags (the recently adopted protest symbol by farmers, alt righters and conspiracy nutters alike)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64967513
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da_nang

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11762 on: March 17, 2023, 03:33:04 am »

France’s Macron risks his government to raise retirement age

He has decided to bypass the French Parliament by using Article 49.3 of the French Constitution. Retirement age has now been raised without a vote in Parliament.

How courageous[1]. Protests are flaring up nationwide.
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voliol

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11763 on: March 17, 2023, 04:09:40 am »

What's the point of having a good economy if you don't have the free time to enjoy it? But I guess for Macron this is a good deal - he might get an early retirement! What a doofus.

jipehog

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11764 on: March 17, 2023, 05:05:24 am »

What is a measure of a good economy? Some French populist suggested lowering retirement age, maybe they should do that.

Personally, I see some similarities between the Dutch tractor bandwagon and here.
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11765 on: March 17, 2023, 06:42:35 am »

We should *all* lower retirement age. That's one of the benefits of productivity the employee classes has been denied for ~50 years now.

Lower retirement ages, shorter work weeks and days. That's what a people's prosperity is measured in.
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voliol

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11766 on: March 17, 2023, 07:10:27 am »

Good economy as in the argument for raising the retirement age being to improve the economy. The point of having a good economy (which is some abstraction of money, resources) should be to uphold the living standards of the people. This point is half made in the BBC article, presumably coming from Macron;
"Raising the retirement age will make workers put more money into the system, which the government says is on course to run a deficit.". Governments obviously need money to fund hospitals, schools, and whatever other welfare, so that living standard may be threatened. At the same time, raising the retirement age also obviously diminishes the living standard of people, since they get less free time. It is an trade-off, which should be decided democratically. And sure, that applies to the suggestion of lowering the retirement age as well. If people want fewer work hours, then they can vote for it. There's of course a problem with populists who don't back up the hows and pretend there is no trade-off, but the suggestion is not wrong by itself.
The problem is Macron side-stepping the democratic process.

The difference between this and the nitrogen emission is that emissions makes life worse for everybody for the foreseeable future, while fewer people working in France predominantly strikes against the French themselves, and only as long as they have the same work hours.

MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11767 on: March 17, 2023, 05:21:17 pm »

Although putting it to an honest vote would be laying out the choices as:
* Mandatory baby making.
* Raise the retirement age.
* Massively increase immigration rates.
* Legalize Euthanasia for the elderly.
* Let it all burn the fuck down.

The issue being faced by pretty much every country outside of Africa recently is that modern economics doesn't seem to have anything to handle a birth rate below replacement rate and we're approaching that point of the population curve.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 05:24:58 pm by MorleyDev »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11768 on: March 17, 2023, 06:04:19 pm »

Although putting it to an honest vote would be laying out the choices as:
* Mandatory baby making.
* Raise the retirement age.
* Massively increase immigration rates.
* Legalize Euthanasia for the elderly.
* Let it all burn the fuck down.

The issue being faced by pretty much every country outside of Africa recently is that modern economics doesn't seem to have anything to handle a birth rate below replacement rate and we're approaching that point of the population curve.
This is melodramatic. The risk isn't the system burning down or the elderly needing to be euthanized en masse - it's just a decline in the standard of living for both the elderly and their carers. That's going to happen one way or the other regardless, but it's not something "modern economics can't handle", it's a pretty standard resource allocation problem no different from the ones modern economics handles millions of times daily. We're not staring at some kind of productivity cliff where Europe can't support its population anymore - everything's stable on that front for decades at least. However, people who can't work productively are going to have less stuff, due to there no longer being enough stuff to go around at current rates.

(And a little math shows that massively increasing immigration leads to more strain on resources, not less. That would actually make it worse.)
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MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11769 on: March 17, 2023, 06:33:16 pm »

I was being a tad facetious with the "burn it all down" comment, yes :) But the issue isn't resource allocation, it's a drop in resource output from population decline that concerns governments and some economicists. (Plus a drop in QoL is generally assumed to lead to civil unrest, and people are dumb so that has a risk of leading to the Very Bad Things).

Using immigration to drain excess population from other countries, raising the retirement age, and making more babies are ways to maintain output (in the short-term at least), whilst reduction of the cared-for population would reduce the burden on what is being output to try and balance out the reduction from population decline*. Western countries have been relying on the former for a few decades now, but that well is drying up. The "Middle World" is joining the "below 2.1" club this decade, quite a few of them already have, and Africa is predicted to do so next decade.

By modern economics I meant the whole "globalised assumption of continued exponential growth of GDP over time". From the theorizing I've seen, population shrinkage is assumed to lead to GDP reduction, which leads to "everybody panic aaaah fire burn it down mad max time! oh wait that didn't happen? huh...oh no it's happening again aaaah!".

The potential "End of Global Economic Growth" is touted as being the next "The Bad Thing" to deal with, so Governments are trying to find ways to put that off for some future lot to deal with.

(* Also never said mandatory euthanasia, the (somewhat weird) argument I've seen from the people concerned about the "cliff edge" is that legalized voluntary euthanasia for general quality of life reasons rather than only terminal illness would be 'enough')
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 07:20:56 pm by MorleyDev »
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voliol

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11770 on: March 18, 2023, 03:08:17 am »

Two points I wonder about, hopefully not too naïvely:

Why are the French (and Italians who are already at the numbers feared) not having children? Are they overworked like the Japanese who can't focus on family-making, or does having children put a strain on their private economy or freedom that they can't handle? Do they worry their children won't have good lives? Or do people don't like children as much these days (this seems very unlikely to me)? It seems weird to me to focus on choosing the symptoms, instead of eliminating the causes.

What happened to the economic growth, which ought to be a constant (as in, always there) in capitalist economies? I remember it being big news when corona caused the GDP to decrease in places, since normally it only goes up by varying amounts. Is it made null by an equal population growth? Or does it only happen when a population is predominantly young people?
The economic growth should also coincide with the development of technology. If people's worries about being replaced by computerized systems (e.g. automized checkouts) and AI are in any way real, shouldn't we be expecting a higher productivity?  Or is the economic growth funneled somewhere else, instead of the welfare of the population? I.e. is capitalism working its wheels - has French wealth inequality increased over the last decennia? 

scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11771 on: March 18, 2023, 04:05:30 am »

The Italians is still living with their mothers
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11772 on: March 18, 2023, 04:46:53 am »

Two points I wonder about, hopefully not too naïvely:

Why are the French (and Italians who are already at the numbers feared) not having children? Are they overworked like the Japanese who can't focus on family-making, or does having children put a strain on their private economy or freedom that they can't handle? Do they worry their children won't have good lives? Or do people don't like children as much these days (this seems very unlikely to me)? It seems weird to me to focus on choosing the symptoms, instead of eliminating the causes.
Nobody really knows for sure and the answer is disputed, but I will tell you one thing: it's certainly far beyond just the French and Italians. If I'm not mistaken, the French have the highest fertility rate in Europe, although it seems a demographic breakdown shows that the "native" French are also below 2, and the national rate is pulled up by immigrants. Just about every other country in, essentially, the entire "first world" is under 2 (which is the replacement rate - two children to replace two parents so the population is stable).

As for why? No two people agree. But it seems to me like a rational prediction of the logistic curve. There are an awful lot of people already and they're not making any more space, at least not counting tiny land reclamation projects here and there that are, sorry, a drop in the ocean. Given that, should you expect that people would just reproduce infinitely to a Malthusian maximum? Would you want to?
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What happened to the economic growth, which ought to be a constant (as in, always there) in capitalist economies? I remember it being big news when corona caused the GDP to decrease in places, since normally it only goes up by varying amounts. Is it made null by an equal population growth? Or does it only happen when a population is predominantly young people?
The economic growth should also coincide with the development of technology. If people's worries about being replaced by computerized systems (e.g. automized checkouts) and AI are in any way real, shouldn't we be expecting a higher productivity?  Or is the economic growth funneled somewhere else, instead of the welfare of the population? I.e. is capitalism working its wheels - has French wealth inequality increased over the last decennia?
Now this part I could write a book about. Maybe I should. Let me start here.
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What happened to the economic growth, which ought to be a constant (as in, always there) in capitalist economies?
Why ought it to be? How could it be?
In order to understand where economic growth comes from and where it goes, first we have to answer the question... what do we actually mean by "economic growth" anyway? It's not a number on a chart. I can write any number on a chart and it won't make anyone feel any better. The number has to mean something for real people. But when we speak of "economic growth", it's too easy to, and too many people do, get distracted by the abstraction and/or abstracted by the distraction and treat it like a number with no consequences and no rules besides math operations.

For me, the definition is simple, but it may require a little background. You see, we can talk about "embodied energy", which is simply the amount of energy that went into doing something. So, as a simple example, the embodied energy of a nugget of iron ore in your hand is greater than that same nugget in the ground, because it took effort to mine it out; smelt it into iron, refine it into steel, shape it into a knife, and the embodied energy goes up at every step.
Embodied energy in and of itself is not a great metric for economic growth, though, because energy can just be wasted in lots of ways. So to me, economic growth is best understood as the increase in embodied energy of resources in ways that improve someone's standard of living. In other words, loosely speaking, the production of more and better goods that someone out there wants.

The problem here should be obvious: no economists, governments, or really anyone use that definition of economic growth in any formal context. The standard is just to talk about GDP, or GDP per capita if you're lucky. But these are both meaningless numbers - if you and I each have a delicious carrot, the economy is unchanged; but if I pay you $50 for your carrot and you pay me $50 for mine, GDP goes up $100. I hope it's clear, then, that the definition I gave above is the kind of economic growth that people really want and work for. I hope it's also clear that that kind of growth cannot just keep going up. There are only so many resources and there is only so much energy that can be used to extract and refine them; and on top of that, there is only so much degree to which you can really improve someone's living standard and expect him to notice. Now you may reasonably say that there is still a lot of "want" left in the world, a lot of room to improve standards of living for a lot of people, and that's true, but there's less now than likely ever before in history, especially in the developed world, and there are real diminishing returns, and the world is looking with increasing diffidence at those absolute resource limits... and as standards of living do rise, miners and smelters want those new and better goods too, which means you have to give them more things to convince them to be miners and smelters or else they will try to find some other way to get them, and so costs rise everywhere in the system just to stay in the same place.
So, even in an ideal resource allocation scenario, growth in real meaningful terms must get harder and slow down over time. The only thing that's even kept it afloat as far as it has is technology, as people learn ways to use less energy to get the same goods — and this has clear theoretical limits. There's no such thing as a post-scarcity future, ever; and if there was, people would breed up to the point where things start becoming scarce again. Which, of course, has happened many times in the history of the settlement of new lands.

You'll note that I did not define growth so as to exclude wealth inequality - making life better for one guy counts just as much as making life better for everyone - and that's because growth in real terms inevitably slows down for everyone. In fact, because of the diminishing returns on standard of living, it slows down even faster "at the top". Even when wealth inequality increases, this doesn't on its own "funnel away economic growth" in the sense I'm using - most wealth exists on paper, and the rich are not actually taking more than a trivial excess of real physical goods over anyone else. This hasn't always been true; certainly in feudal Europe, the wealthy got that way by actively lowering everyone else's standard of living in the form of literally taking their stuff. But for now, wealth inequality cannot explain much of the growth problem. Even when some rich guy buys up a company and fires a bunch of people, it's just not really making a dent overall.

Okay, so why is GDP also stumbling, given that it has been decoupled from real human-meaningful productivity for decades? Well, I could write a lot more about this but I feel like I might be running into some post length limits any time soon, so I'll just say this: GDP can be inflated by purely paper transactions that don't affect anyone's real life, but real standard of living improvements are still what people want and work for. That parasitic paper economy still needs a working foundation to live off, or else people stop taking your Papiermarks anymore. When that foundation shrinks, and the paper gets more self-incestuously leveraged, the numbers get swingier and you start to see busts that can make whole filing cabinets full of paper worthless in minutes. GDP no longer tracks production, but it's still sensitive to it because production is still the motivation people have for wanting money in the first place.

So to really put the fine point to your question, if you had a million dollars (if you had a million dollars), where would you invest it and expect a return? Would you build a factory, producing what, staffed by whom, where? If you expect growth, where would it come from?
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jipehog

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11773 on: March 18, 2023, 05:01:53 am »

Why are the French (and Italians who are already at the numbers feared) not having children?
The why is a very difficult question, some of the underlying causes here are in the realm of wicked problems, but concerning Macron proposal population aging in France is a fact. Which is affected by ever increasing life expectancy and decrease in fertility. For perspective in 1950, four workers were financing one pensioner, today this halved and by 2040 this is expected to fall to 1.3 workers per one pensioner.

Overall France has the lowest retirement age in OCED, with 14% of its public spending goes toward its pension (the highest of any except Greece and Italy), economy wise they are in the EU's "global south", with multiple economic challenges ahead including but not limited to the unexpected Putin's war, which put an end to Europe's peace dividend for starters. Overall, I think the decision to raise retirement age has merit.

The difference between this and the nitrogen emission is that emissions makes life worse for everybody for the foreseeable future.

I am not sure I agree with this framing. You can similarly side step the issue in France saying that impending deficit will make life worse for everybody, and focus on tradeoffs regarding Netherlands government decision to halve the country's livestock in few years which its proponents argue will threaten the economic, social and cultural viability of rural Netherlands.

Regardless the similarity I was referring to meta wise, concerning how the populist seem to be exploiting these incidents for broader antigovernmental protest bashing on these piñatas for all their electoral worth for the long run.

The problem is Macron side-stepping the democratic process.

I am not sure it is undemocratic. From what I skimmed it seem like part of the democratic game (to date it have seen the most use by a Socialist PM who passed minimum social assistance welfare program) and has a built in no-confidence vote, and failing that the decision could be overturned next time.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 05:03:35 am by jipehog »
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MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #11774 on: March 18, 2023, 12:45:31 pm »

The tldr of my opinion is what is actually democractic is not as simple as "People vote and what the majority vote for is what happens". Because following that idea of democracy makes direct democracy tyranny of the majority the ideal, and a pure majority-decides unrestricted Direct Democracy would be closer to Nazi Germany than anything resembling a fair and liberal society. Life for the minority would quickly work out 'nasty, brutish, and short'.

The whole idea behind having a "political class" and constitutions and "unelected" judical branch is to prevent certain things from happening even if elected officials or a majority of people voted for it, and allow certain things to happen even if it goes against majority opinion, and allowing for that to happen in a managed way must be a part of the democractic process.

So the debate if this counts as a legitimate use of that power to keep the wheels actually turning, or a loophole within that neccesary power being used. But the power itself is still fitting and needed into the practical workings of a democracy and vital to the maintainence of it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 07:52:20 pm by MorleyDev »
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