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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 823792 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3225 on: April 30, 2020, 06:18:31 pm »

I'd been joking before that in the worst case scenario meph and mayday are a little slow and toady has more time to spent on fixing bugs and polishing... Oh the horror. ;)

So that's what he is doing at the moment!

(Or maybe if meph and mayday are a little slow he'll call whatever the current arc is 'good' and move on to the long awaited - but only just thought of - Procgen Beard Arc.  I hope so.  :-*)


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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3226 on: May 02, 2020, 12:15:21 am »

Quote from: therahedwig
What does it mean when a villain confesses to following a plot under the influence of an unidentified creature?

Like, I know it has to do with the master of a villain, but I am wondering why it is saying 'unidentified creature', I don't have culling of histfigs, so I am wondering, is this a bug or just me not understanding game mechanics?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120819#msg8120819
therahedwig (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120820#msg8120820
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8120893#msg8120893

It doesn't use skill for that bit yet, as I recollect.  It says unidentified creature sometimes because the interrogation subject simply doesn't know.  This can happen if they've been handled - they can give up the identity they know for the handler but not the master, and there might be other situations.  Of course, it could also be bugged, but I saw it a few times during testing where it made sense, though it could certainly be phrased in a less confusing fashion even then.

Quote from: Lenin0Grib
Will be possible in steam version build dirt,glay,sand construction(fully terraforming)? I mean make hill from dirt or sand or rock and it not be constuction like stone wall or wood ramp.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121417#msg8121417
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121670#msg8121670
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8121903#msg8121903

No plans for this for the steam/itch version at this point.  It does make sense to be able to pile dirt, to some extent at least, but it doesn't even leave a trace when you dig right now, so there'd need to be other changes.

Quote from: MalroktheIII
1 Will we actually be able to domesticate animals on a civilization wide level?

2 If we can, will enemy exotic mounts and war animals be more common?

3 Will our dwarves be able to use mounts?

4 Going a bit further ahead, will magical procgen tamable animals and mounts exist with the magic update?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123146#msg8123146
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123172#msg8123172
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123220#msg8123220
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123226#msg8123226

I think the responses cover everything.  We'd planned to do #1, but it was difficult and requires some heavy work on the underlying structures.  Hard to say what'll be in on the first magic update; certainly magical critters are important generally.  And dwarves w/ mounts would be some work, yeah, and we'd leaned against it somewhat early on, for whatever reason, but media properties have them ride goats or pigs now, and they've been 'resplendent on their war donkeys' in several ThreeToe rewards.

Quote from: therahedwig
- Right now infiltrators have a very easy time flipping dwarves. In legends mode I often see that friends try to prevent position holders from becoming corrupt. Do you think the easy flipping is because dwarves are really bad at making friends still, or is it because of missing features?
- Will the digging invaders (if they get in) be on all armies like climbing is?
- Given the map rewrite is going to lead to various bits of DF understanding 3d better, do you think flier pathing is also going to improve?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8123227#msg8123227

The friends/access/etc. stuff was all put off.  Villains have an easier time in post w.g. currently because the defensive networks don't function.

Hard to say exactly where digging will go, but yeah, I imagine sometimes they won't be able to dig through solid stone.  That should be fine, especially if we go through with some of the adjacent additions like them messing with your surface in various ways if you wall yourself up.

Not sure about flier pathing - it's a buffer/FPS problem that I don't think the map rewrite fundamentally helps with.  We have the connected component calculation for walkers because most regular creatures are walkers.  Getting away from that entirely is difficult (we do it now locally in combat/escape situations which is why climbers etc. work, but that doesn't work globally), and doing multiple connected component types is slow/memheavy.

Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Is there a reason for the absence (if the DF wiki is to be believed) of giant and animal people versions of the domestic creatures (chickens, ducks, goats, geese, etc.)? And if so, is that reason one of design (so they won't be added later), or of convenience (there was some difficulty, but they will be added at some (presumably unspecified) later date)? I know it's a bit of a silly question, but I was listening to old DF talks and in episode 10, you talk about the addition of chickens and how there must be giant chickens as well at that point.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124138#msg8124138
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124165#msg8124165
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124167#msg8124167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124178#msg8124178
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124267#msg8124267
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124278#msg8124278
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124291#msg8124291
Whatsifsowhatsit (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8124352#msg8124352

Oversight in some cases, lack of biome in others (depending on wherever you think they come from.)  Since animal people origins are part of the myth generator prototype already, it's possible the origin question may determine how it is supposed to work - it would be possible to figure out how to apply the animal person variation at later stages of the game, provided the raw file in question was tagged/known to be compatible.  Then we can do it case by case with some extra work, and get giant person-person bugs along the way.

Quote from: Uthimienure
I think just about all of us use stairwells. And our dwarfs happily push wheelbarrows up and down them. I've tried this in real life and it's not quite as easy as it is for the dwarfs!  Any plan to encourage the use of ramps by making stairs very difficult for wheelbarrows?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129427#msg8129427

This came up at the time.  Not sure if it was an issue with setting up the pathing costs or something else, but it didn't happen.

Quote from: Iä! RIAKTOR!
What exotic pets may be pack animals? Why they don't in current version?

It uses the PACK_ANIMAL tag.  I'm not sure which ones have it - probably not (m)any of them, since it doesn't come up much and I overlooked it.  But theoretically I should add the tag to more of them so e.g. the elves can use them to trade.

Quote from: King Mir
Where will the signs be for non-rectangle stockpiles? Will discontinuous stockpiles have more than one sign? Will stockpiles with sections removed still have a fence around the new perimeter? Will adjacent stockpiles have zero, one, or two fences between them? How will it look if I checker my stockpiles? (this is useful to get around the wheelbarrow limit for rock stockpiles).

We're still trying different things for disconnected piles.  Some of the tree/water boundary fences look silly, but others don't.  Sign will probably be on the top left, though I don't recall if it hits top or left first if the pile is an odd shape.  Right now the simple thing for adjacent stockpiles was two fences, since it goes tile by tile.  That might change.

Quote from: MaxTheFox
Can we expect sentient wild populations (like animal-people and satyrs) to be more fleshed-out later in the development cycle?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129341#msg8129341

Yeah, I expect the myth release will force at least some change here, since they'll be given their origins and more of a situation.  But also yeah, the entity rewrites will also be needed to really get it properly managed.

Quote from: MCipher
What are the chances that there will be features pertaining to the end of the world in the Myth release? For instance, say the creation myth foretells of a time when a legendary monster consumes the world, or in a world that’s an un-hatched cosmic egg, a certain condition causes the egg to hatch, ending the world as we know it? And, as an extension of this question, would this post-end world be playable, a la FF6, or would it force the world into a ‘legends-only’ situation?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129342#msg8129342

Yeah, it's part of the deal.  It's not really the end of the world if you can play afterward, depending on what you mean, but both types may be available.  Like the demon timer we got rid of, it could be that an actual world end is just too annoying for players, but the current plan is to go ahead and just put a bow on the world if it actually comes to nothing.  Certainly there should be sufficient warning etc. so the game doesn't just essentially boot you to desktop for no apparent reason.  On the other hand, if the world just comes to a fiery ruin with a few people left, then you should be able to play one.

Quote from: TheSteppeWolf
How long is the development expected to last, and will it continue developing once it reaches full version?

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129421#msg8129421
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129423#msg8129423
TheSteppeWolf (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129424#msg8129424
MaxTheFox: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129425#msg8129425
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8129426#msg8129426

I think the replies cover it well enough.  Just going to keep working.

Quote from: Inarius
In Arena mode, you can select your world. But i don't think it changes anything. Why is this option existing ?
 Another question (i hope it's not too suggestive), in Arena, too, we can create every type of creatures except the FB/Titans. I know it can be done otherwise by tweaking some options, but is it the way you wanted it, do you plan to change this ?

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130542#msg8130542
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130543#msg8130543
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130799#msg8130799
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130830#msg8130830
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130833#msg8130833
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8130899#msg8130899
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131114#msg8131114
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131132#msg8131132

Each save up to this point has held its own raw files, and sometimes people use different mods and so forth - we weren't sure where that was going to go way back when, so we let you pick ones you use in the arena.  But it's mostly pointless, the way it works now.

Similarly, way back when, FBs were supposed to be kind of a surprise!  So you can't make them in the arena.  Same reason for the [ARENA_RESTRICTED] tag on the 'new' subterranean creatures, which are only X number of years old now.  The game is slowly becoming whatever it is, and once there are editors and all of whatever, that'll seem like a strange priority indeed, even broken.  But it made enough sense back whenever.

Quote from: Ziusudra
With the UI update has any consideration been given to limiting the line length of text? Perhaps with an init.txt option?

What is the context here?  Before, aside from the many screens stuck at 80 because they weren't updated, everything was on the same grid and so it doesn't seem to matter much.  Or are you talking about making it less than the width of the grid for some reason?  I don't know yet what's going to happen more broadly yet.

Quote from: squamous
1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?

2. In the past, there was talk about implementing adventurers commanding armies and a general military update prior to the Big Wait but probably after the last of the villains stuff and the steam release. Is that on the table and if so what sort of features can we expect, if any? I for one am interested in the idea of the world as a whole having more cohesion in its military shenanigans. Being able to play a simple hunter in a city as two NPC generals fight over it seems like it'd be a great survival adventure.

MaxTheFox: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8131990#msg8131990
squamous (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132009#msg8132009
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132013#msg8132013
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132016#msg8132016
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132082#msg8132082
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132104#msg8132104
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132136#msg8132136
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132142#msg8132142
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132333#msg8132333
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132382#msg8132382
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132691#msg8132691
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132706#msg8132706
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133152#msg8133152
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133161#msg8133161
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133167#msg8133167
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133310#msg8133310
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133649#msg8133649

We didn't change night trolls when we did the graphics for them - certain details are simply not depicted.  I'm not sure any future additions will need to be limited.  Certainly it's more work and there needs to be more coordination.

The dev page has our plans for armies to the extent we've mentioned them, pretty much.  It's still the plan.  Steam/itch -> finish villains/armies/adv-medical/etc. -> myth/magic/map rewrite.

Quote from: Beag
1. Since you will be adding a tutorial to fortress mode to help new players in the steam release will adventure mode also be getting a tutorial?
2. Currently the divination dice generate as practices of certain religions, eventually will our player adventurers be able to see the practices of their religion that they know about in the Q(info) screen?
3. Since in the steam release objects are now going to represented graphically how will statues and figurines be handled? Statues and figurines of certain things seem simple enough but what about ones depicting complicated scenes like historical events?
4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132552#msg8132552
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132606#msg8132606
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8132626#msg8132626

1. It's too early to commit to any specifics on this, since there are a few stages beforehand that will determine where it goes.
2. It's reasonable to add more information there, but it all takes time.  Not sure what will be next.
3. We have one tile for each now, could end up with a few more.  We likely won't try to depict the exact scenes right now.
4. We haven't planned to do more than they currently do.  As Bumber states, there are a lot of creatures, and animating all their dances isn't feasible.

Quote from: Dorfthefort123
Will Events that depict battles in carvings be biased at all? Like a leader that died pathetically to a Beak dog. Will be told to have died to a Beak dog protecting his friends from the evil demon lord?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8133817#msg8133817

Yeah, it's a reasonable suggestion.  We're just getting started with what little dishonesties and mistakes our villains and spies can manage, and expanding out from that, it's always tricky storing that extra layer of information.
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Ziusudra

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3227 on: May 02, 2020, 12:35:44 am »

Quote from: Ziusudra
With the UI update has any consideration been given to limiting the line length of text? Perhaps with an init.txt option?

What is the context here?  Before, aside from the many screens stuck at 80 because they weren't updated, everything was on the same grid and so it doesn't seem to matter much.  Or are you talking about making it less than the width of the grid for some reason?  I don't know yet what's going to happen more broadly yet.
Yes, less than the width. With widescreen being the default and ever increasing resolutions the game can have lines of text that are a few times longer than is comfortable to read. Even the default of 80 is difficult when there is a lot of it. And the current zoom functionality doesn't adjust on the fly at all well.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 01:02:48 am by Ziusudra »
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3228 on: May 02, 2020, 06:41:48 am »

Thanks for the answers Toady.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3229 on: May 02, 2020, 06:43:23 am »

Thanks for the answers! Ah, if there's no real defence system for villains at all, I do feel a little better about not having the tavern open...
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3230 on: May 02, 2020, 07:32:03 am »

Thanks for the answers! Ah, if there's no real defence system for villains at all, I do feel a little better about not having the tavern open...
The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege (or just picking a losing fight with local wildlife, which happened to me, and the bugger was queen as well, so I immediately got saddled with a monarch). At least official civ members ought to be allowed in the tavern regardless of settings.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3231 on: May 02, 2020, 10:31:38 am »

Really? Mine just mills around the nobles' quarters. But I wouldn't say no to more granularity in visitor settings, we might need to take that to the suggestion forums, though :)

The other thing that makes not having a tavern open annoying is when inexplicably all your migrants have skill with an instrument you can't make or trade for :D
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3232 on: May 02, 2020, 11:06:53 am »

Really? Mine just mills around the nobles' quarters. But I wouldn't say no to more granularity in visitor settings, we might need to take that to the suggestion forums, though :)

The other thing that makes not having a tavern open annoying is when inexplicably all your migrants have skill with an instrument you can't make or trade for :D
I could have had bad luck so the trade liaison happened to catch the expedition leader outside and then remained there. The expedition leaders generally don't get offices in my fortresses as they're not required.
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3233 on: May 02, 2020, 03:30:13 pm »

How is UX design been going?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3234 on: May 02, 2020, 04:18:40 pm »

How is UX design been going?
If you intended the question for Toady you should attract his attention by marking it in (lime) green.

Otherwise, he's still busy with the graphics, and so hasn't started on the UI side yet, although I've seen no reports on what conclusions Threetoe has drawn. I'd guess they've made a huge list of work candidates, though.
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Su

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3235 on: May 02, 2020, 08:23:31 pm »

Procgen Beard Arc

that's already in, isn't it? =]
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3236 on: May 03, 2020, 03:06:20 am »

Procgen Beard Arc

that's already in, isn't it? =]
No. It doesn't specify the type of braiding used, the color of beads and cord (nor their placement), or the types and materials of the various tools used to cut and groom the beards :P
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3237 on: May 03, 2020, 08:18:16 am »

The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...
What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!

For Toady, so far regarding the steam version, have you been forced or for practicality sake's have to make a compromise in the dwarf fortress development, feature wise I mean?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 08:22:04 am by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3238 on: May 03, 2020, 08:45:09 am »

The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...
What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!

For Toady, so far regarding the steam version, have you been forced or for practicality sake's have to make a compromise in the dwarf fortress development, feature wise I mean?
Officially Kitfox gave him complete control. The 30-40 year timeline hasn't changed (but UI improvements and graphics and stuff were brought forwards).

Unofficially, well, who knows, not likely to just announce it here though, is he?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3239 on: May 03, 2020, 05:26:02 pm »

The problem with not having the tavern open is that the Outpost Liaison then hangs around the embark wagon to be slaughtered by the next siege...
What kind of men doesn't disband the wagon to make a distillery right away?!
:
Wyy bother disassembling the wagon when a tree will have been felled by the time the wagon has been pulled apart? It's just wasted effort better spent elsewhere (e.g. collecting plants that can then be brewed in a still made from tree wood), unless you've got a treeless embark. Eventually the gobbo invaders (or necro experiments) will free the wagon logs, though.
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