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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 906079 times)

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3375 on: August 01, 2020, 04:11:06 pm »

Quote from: Mort Stroodle
So with intelligent undead, who have no emotion yet behave in many ways like regular members of the fort... is it all an act? Are they just "pretending" to be the person they once were? Are they operating entirely on habit? What are your thoughts on the philosophical implications of having motivated people with zero emotions at all?

This whole concept is extremely interesting to me, characters like Spock and Data in Star Trek always get me thinking hard about what exactly it is that motivates people, and how much of the human experience is directed by emotion.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8163868#msg8163868

Yeah, it's true we haven't thought much about the undead particulars, because the nature of things isn't at all established.  Emotions as they stand in DF are separated from thoughts, and are all reactive to them, and that's not very accurate.  The last thing I read put calm/agitated + positive/negative affects as the base and everything else as being entirely socially malleable (early on), including fear responses, and that would change a lot of things - so the rules depend on where the models end up going vs. how much we continue to adhere to a more traditional model for the sake of narrative.  But yeah, part of what Shonai_Dweller was referring to is the idea that the myth setup is going to define what, in a given universe, mind/soul/body/emotion/thought means, and undeath modes should end up more controlled by that.  There's a series of implicit rewrites here, and avoiding a lot of work up front will also be a consideration.  So who knows ha ha.

Quote from: Wieniawa
1. On some Steam version screenshots, some creatures seem to be multi-tile. Can we expect multi-tile creatures then?
2. If Steam version is going to expand upon overground farming, can we expect NPC farms?
3. Also re farming, can we expect to be able to dig stones from the ground and fill holes with dirt? So far when you’re farming above ground you end up with a lot of holes in the middle of the farm, if you happen to have stone tiles in the middle.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164160#msg8164160

I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell's reply.  Won't be a lot of time for new features, and those we do get will be specifically related to the heavier usability issues.

Quote from: Liamar
1. Will animal training ever extend to herding?
2. Will we ever have fences to keep livestock separated without a full wall?
3. Will we have dog breeds at some point? General domesticated breeds, selective breeding, explicit (dif name, sprite) or just trait-based? Sentient breeds, half-breeds?
4. Will fort mode ever receive a more real time clock with day-night cycle?

Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164758#msg8164758
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8164826#msg8164826

1/2. Herding is a bit of specialized tech work (I imagine, having never done it), but I'm all for happy dogs with jobs.  All for fences, but not sure when that'll happen, for both of these.

3. The work we did on gene pools etc. was aiming toward dog breeds, and in fact there's a breed object in the game that tracks genetic profiles, it just doesn't set it aside visually for the player in the ways you suggest, and it doesn't make new ones - at some point we hope to get further there.  I'm not sure what it'll end up focusing on at first.

PatrikLundell's reply on #4 covers it.

Quote from: Mort Stroodle
I know dwarf appearance varies by civ, but does it also vary by sex? Could a particular civ have, say, shaved heads being in fashion for women while braided hair is all the rage for men?

There's nothing like that currently.  I think it'll still vary e.g. eye color if only one of the castes has eyes, but I'm not even sure about that.

Quote from: KristoffPL
With new music coming to the Steam/itch.io release, will the 2 tracks already present in the current version of the game be remastered (re-recorded), removed from the game completely or left as is? I feel like a lot of people associate those particular tunes with Dwarf Fortress (myself included) and it would be a nice to be able to hear them in the new version of the game in some form

I don't feel comfortable re-recording them; the title music wasn't even composed, just played on the spot, and I've long since lost the main song, though I know people have written tab down for it.  We'd considered, for instance, playing the existing tracks in Legends mode and some other spots.  Due to the sound quality, they wouldn't fit in with the regular rotation as a default.  But it is possible they will find homes.

Quote from: Pillbo
When the 'randomness' slider is in effect for worlds, will that change the composition of Forgotten Beast & other procgen creatures?  As in- would a low random world severely limit body plan & materials, or a high random world incorporate even more potential body plans.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8166251#msg8166251

We haven't gotten very far into this, but that's come up the few times we've come up with examples or set up the mythgen stuff - we restricted ourselves to humanoids at the midrange settings, and then brought on the blobs and quadrupeds and others when it is cranked all the way up.  I expect that'll be how it works, for civilization races.  Forgotten beasts are a different kind of example, since their relative rarity and (usual) distance from civilized areas makes them able to adopt stranger forms at lower settings (including the default, where blobs and others seem just fine.)  Now, that doesn't mean that the rare critters can't be even odder at high settings -- energy beings, dual-planar beings, half-invisible beings, other oddities.  That also leaves room at whatever the top levels are for civilized beings to also be that odd.  We'll have to see how it all gets teased apart and then also matched up with what's ultimately playable.  Even civilized blobs and quadrupeds introduce the need for certain AI changes, as modders have discovered (esp. w/ fliers, etc.), and weirder beings might just not be feasible for civilized play on the first pass.

Quote from: Ggobs
I'm curious why monthly donations end in odd cents. I'm thinking exchange rates from foreign currencies?

LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8167088#msg8167088

Yeah, the fees from Paypal can make them odd.  The exchange rate on Paypal can make them odd.  The Patreon cut/fees can make them odd.  Also, some people give odd numbers as well.  13.37 is popular as you can imagine, and back when it was showing cents on the end of the Patreon number, somebody would very very often (like every few days, different person every time) change their amount so that the displayed total ended in 69 cents.  It wouldn't surprise me if the only reason Patreon removed the cents from the display was to curtail this practice, ha ha.  Changing the whole dollar amount to end in 69 is a heavier proposition.

Quote from: AliceRed
Do you think that the map rework or any future updates or changes will introduce a more dynamic and individualized way of generating buildings?

Reading through the comments that came before this question, the issue seemed to be the use of various prefabs vs. something more involved, perhaps using parameters in various algorithms and placing various metastructures over how they operate.  I'm not sure where we'll end up at this point.  We've mainly just experimented with bare-minimum algorithms, metadata, and parameters to this point, to finish whatever task was at hand, without giving much variability to a given creature/site/building, and it's quite a bit of work maintaining even those, compared to lists of text grids.

Overall, before we even get to buildings, we're committing to a higher level of variety when we get to the rewrites, and we'll see if some of that works in terms of defining processes for built structures.  Algorithms and parameters are preferable in that they let us hook up cultural/usage/change-over-time/etc. data over larger spaces more organically, but they are harder to maintain and harder to vary/control.  Both approaches can be used, but up to this point we've been stopped from using a large corpus of text map data in part because overarching changes tend to obliterate such files entirely (which makes them hard to maintain too, I guess, in that sense.  We have a lot of masters here, in terms of civ data, history, 3D landforms, and other issues, which can't be overlooked.)  If both things are more modular, which is part of what we'll be messing with, it'd all be a little more future proof, though modularity also sterilizes things.  It'll be fun, anyway.

Quote from: Pillbo
I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update.  What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168410#msg8168410
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168512#msg8168512

Yeah, I haven't particularly changed my mind on bundling some stuff in with the map rewrite.  I don't see a benefit to putting it up if it doesn't bring something new with it; I'm not even sure why players want it if it adds nothing by itself.  PatrikLundell's mention of testing is something at least, but weighing that against it being a ~year-long dud still leaves the addition of other features attractive to me.  That said, the intervening Steam release could also have an effect on how the Big Wait goes down (I have no idea what, but it seems possible.  The proposed fixer-upper branches are one part of it, but the sense of releases may change in whatever unknown way over that time.)

Quote from: squamous
1. Will the military update allow non-party adventure mode NPCs or fortress dwarves to ride mounts around? Would larger ones be able to have howdahs or an equivalent to support multiple riders? Mostly thinking of elephants here but maybe the amount of passengers could scale according to size, I dunno how it would work.
2. In the previous FOTF you outlined how in the far future different dimensions would work. How much could modders customize these other dimensions? For example, could I make a scifi mod where I make a different "dimension" to represent different planets and moons in the solar system (taking into account stone/minerals, flora and fauna, etc), and create civilizations for each? Or at least create civilizations in the dimensions that are added? Obviously that'd take a lot of processing power but I'm just speaking hypothetically.
3. What sort of raw data currently inaccessible to modders do you think will become available in the near future? Just off the top of my head, there's water, the weather descriptors, the color of the sky, stuff like that.
4. What exactly is the difference between armor levels 2 and 3 in regards to how entities decide use it? I know both correspond to melee units, representing chain and plate armor respectively  (with the exception of soldiers of a civilization, which can get level 2 or 3 chest and head gear), but I can't find much information one what causes a civilization or NPC to decide to/be able to equip one or the other.
5. In adventure mode I have seen NPCs in taverns wearing armor made from multiple materials that were exclusive to a single civilization. So it was wearing armor made from metal exclusive to Civ A, and also another piece made with metal exclusive to Civ B. I'm curious how that works. Do NPCs loot equipment or gain access to materials from particular civs by spending some time with them?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8168904#msg8168904
squamous (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169074#msg8169074
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169081#msg8169081
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169112#msg8169112
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8169410#msg8169410

1. Yeah, no idea if that's where we are headed with the military stuff that happens post-Steam at this point, in terms of random additions that surround the core stuff - mounted dwarves is never at the very top of any list.

2. However the generator can relate the planes, however that's modularly cut up, should be available to modders.  I don't currently know if that'll include things like x/y/z coordinates; it very well could, but I wouldn't commit to it.  For civs, there's the two-mode model that has come up a few times: time/civs/space as they occur in myth, and time/civs/space as they occur in current worldgen.  In the examples I've spoken about, the civ action in other planes always happened in mythgen, and then was essentially relegated to "hidden/lost/destroyed" by the time regular worldgen started.

However, some of the setups we've considered as core mythgen scenarios don't work this way.  For instance, having two 129x65 worlds that are paired to each other in whatever way takes about as many resources as running history on a single 129x129 world - they can share the cap or have two smaller caps or however.  Then we'd have full rich histories in two worlds, and they can be intermingled by portal travel or divine intervention or whatever.  For the infinite planes etc., we'd have to be much more careful, but it'd still be possible to have crucial places (travel/plane hubs, divine seats, capitals, etc.) have complete rich parallel histories, lessened only by the way that extraplanar things that touch them seem to disappear more or have less of a defined-yet-sprawling character (compared to worldgen farmland/etc.)  We should be able to get a long way like this though, in some senses as far as a lot of the works set in such multiverses which also focus almost entirely on the important bits.

In other mushier infinite setups, there might be nothing historical at all away from the core play zone, if there is even one of those.

3. In the near-term, before the rewrite?  Nothing particular comes to mind, though the Steam release itself is going to open up quite a bit of modding possibility (in Classic as well), just more on the interface/display side of inaccessible stuff.  After the rewrite, much more, but I'm not sure what - the generation parameters and whatever editors we get first will drive that.

4. It gets convoluted, so I'm not sure how this plays out now, but it looks like it chooses half the possible level 3s to be part of the uniform for invading soldiers, so that they have a mix of 2s and 3s.  Do humans, say, when they come to invade, wear the level 3 sections with any consistency, in a given civilization?  The code is so old and goes on such a walk now it'd be easier to just check an army to see if that happens.  It doesn't look like it's used anywhere else at this point.

5. Hmm, they don't do specific looting aside from artifacts.  And when it generates inventory items, it appears to use just one civilization.  There's a lot of code here, so it's not clear immediately if there's another path where it might use more than one.  It's also possible the civilizations themselves are picking up the materials through other means, though if they don't use the material elsewhere that's less likely.

Quote from: Prismatic
Hi Toady, I've got a modding question which I haven't been able to find an answer to. What purpose does "REQUIRED" serve in the COUNTER_TRIGGER syndrome effect, and are there any other arguments which can be used in its place? For instance, the example vampire interaction contains the following line:
Code: [Select]
[CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED]
On a similar note, the wiki details 8 counters for use with the COUNTER_TRIGGER effect, but does not reference a source for this information. As such, are there any other counters available besides those included in the following list?
Spoiler: counters (click to show/hide)

It looks like REQUIRED means that the effect can't proceed if the counter exists but does not lie within the range provided.  This looks like it is meant to catch some obscure case where you can have more than one of the same counter, but I'm not even sure what that situation was.  It doesn't seem possible now.  With COUNTER_TRIGGER, it always checks to see that the counter exists and is in the range provided, so it's redundant now, possibly.

Those are the only counters available.  The game has various others, but there's no interface for them.  They mostly relate to things like individual military training timing, animal training timing, hospital usage, etc.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
As Steam moves on to Villains and "stuff to do before the Big Wait" do you think you'll have another shot at cleaning up fortress unretirement? Or are the various bugs ("hostile" visitors who aren't, visitor number explosions, etc) caused by underlying issues that need save-breaking rewrites?

The issues I've seen there don't seem to be related to save issues, although sometimes that hides under the surface.  Certainly as fair to take a look at as any of the serious old bugs.

Quote from: Dragonslayerelf
Are there any plans for non-dwarven (or fort race) migrants that exist in your civ and mixed civs?

I've been wanting to play a fortress thats kinda like Dorwinion and has a dichotomy between two different species of sentient people working in harmony, but I'm wondering if mechanically that's something that's going to be in the works.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171854#msg8171854
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171872#msg8171872
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8171920#msg8171920

People mentioned the ways you can get some small number of other creatures in the fort.  We've been slowly working up to more integration - the main issue remains stuff like clothing, which isn't very satisfying with the permanent residents, I think.  Having a default fort be 50/50 (if the civ is) needs more work on that kind of mixed production to be a more regular situation.

Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are the icons sliders and other graphical parts of the interface that you're adding locked to the official tileset? I'm just wondering how the new interface will work for anyone who doesn't buy the Steam version. Or indeed in Steam's curses tileset, is that Curses plus graphical icons? Different icons to match the ASCII style? Presumably all the new rectangle drawing tools and such will be fully functional?
Quote from: DG
Are all new UI elements and any changes to current ones supporting keyboard only input?

They are locked, insofar as everything else is - it's set up currently as the creature graphics have been, where you link up images with text files and so forth, and the fancy image sets aren't going to be in DF Classic (which is likely what the Steam curses version will be, same as the free one.)  That does leave us the question of what DF Classic is, when we've been aiming for "no graphics but as many of the interface improvements as possible."  We'll very soon reach a point where the changes will require some sort of substitute.  Whether those are literal text buttons (with line outlines and ASCII symbols inside), or something else, is yet to be seen.  The way the interface currently works where it still respects the old grid somewhat (rather than the new graphical layer, which doesn't respect the old grid, other than being a grid at all) makes it much easier to handle ASCII parallel work on an ongoing basis.

Yeah, the continuing plan, which seems feasible thus far, is to maintain keyboard alternatives everywhere.  There are some questions here and there about how some nested widget might work, if various little tick boxes end up being convenient, and so forth, but having quick key/sequence methods is important.

Quote from: Buttery_Mess
You mentioned in the dev blog that we're now able to set designations during unpaused play. Does that accompany some control over the play speed during play? Everything happens awfully quickly at 100FPS and awfully slowly at 5 FPS, will we have some ability to set min/max FPS during play?

 I have to say that not having to pause the game to make any changes when things are running slow sounds like a great feature, I think I spend more time paused than running in older forts.

Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172217#msg8172217
Uthimienure: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172237#msg8172237

We haven't added any speed controls yet, and as Su writes, all we can do is make things go slower.  100FPS does have them zipping around a bit, and it feels slightly more uncontrolled now that the tiles are larger, so we may end up with a half speed option for people that want one.  And of course, pausing is still an option.

Quote from: Beag
In one of the recent dwarf fortress talks you mentioned a spell where the user sacrifices a bit of their flesh to bruise their target. Seeing a spell no one in their right mind would use made me wonder; in addition to the other myth generation configuration settings would how balanced magic is be another possible setting we could configure when generating the myth for a world? Like at one end is very underpowered the the other end is very over powered?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172337#msg8172337
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172364#msg8172364
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172477#msg8172477

Yeah, I agree that being able to balance all the world's magic would be quite tricky.  Point values are already in the prototype, and it balance costs somewhat around these (I didn't spend a lot of time on it there!), and that helps.  But even simple synergies and other 'exploits' people are quite good at finding would be trickier to find and attach values to.  But the general sense of power is much easier to deal with (even if that also slips up sometimes) and will assuredly have settings.  In the prototype, we did these on a sphere-wise basis, attaching weights to different effects to shift the types of magic.  That worked okay and can be built upon.

Quote from: pikachu17
Is the public going to get access to the Myth Generator program at some point? If not, why?
It seems like something you've already completed that doesn't seem to have much reason to not let people use, and it seems pretty cool and fun.

Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172723#msg8172723
pikachu17 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172726#msg8172726
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8172730#msg8172730

I don't have anything to add the quote Shonai_Dweller found.  It would/could create problems down the road.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3376 on: August 01, 2020, 05:05:42 pm »

Thanks for the replies Toady  :P

I was a bit late to help with the limequestion replies.


Edit - removed this bit, i had senior moment and forgot how brackets worked.

Quote from: squamous
4. What exactly is the difference between armor levels 2 and 3 in regards to how entities decide use it? I know both correspond to melee units, representing chain and plate armor respectively  (with the exception of soldiers of a civilization, which can get level 2 or 3 chest and head gear), but I can't find much information one what causes a civilization or NPC to decide to/be able to equip one or the other.
5. In adventure mode I have seen NPCs in taverns wearing armor made from multiple materials that were exclusive to a single civilization. So it was wearing armor made from metal exclusive to Civ A, and also another piece made with metal exclusive to Civ B. I'm curious how that works. Do NPCs loot equipment or gain access to materials from particular civs by spending some time with them?
4. It gets convoluted, so I'm not sure how this plays out now, but it looks like it chooses half the possible level 3s to be part of the uniform for invading soldiers, so that they have a mix of 2s and 3s.  Do humans, say, when they come to invade, wear the level 3 sections with any consistency, in a given civilization?  The code is so old and goes on such a walk now it'd be easier to just check an army to see if that happens.  It doesn't look like it's used anywhere else at this point.

5. Hmm, they don't do specific looting aside from artifacts.  And when it generates inventory items, it appears to use just one civilization.  There's a lot of code here, so it's not clear immediately if there's another path where it might use more than one.  It's also possible the civilizations themselves are picking up the materials through other means, though if they don't use the material elsewhere that's less likely.

Captain positions which make the mass infantry of sieges are actually very lowly ranked, hence recieve the worst equipment and training which might influence how effective the armor chosen is, in adventure mode there are no restrictions and other world-entities like recent mercenaries from odd bits of equipment out of what finance they have.

A) This means that often quality of materials siegers wear is not on par with adventure mode hearthguards, account exempt entities etc. You'll virtually never see leaders and important people in armor but they do wear often masterwork clothing.
 
B) Cycles of production may simply not keep up with demand, however through limited supply there may be odd amounts if everyone rushes to grab it of a certain grade.

The significant difference between hardcoded recruit grunts (which you can prove by pruning them to specific races, which solves all animal recruits & restricts all experiments) is most easily seen when you instigate a war against other dwarf civs and they'll still opt to send soldiers in the bare minimum of copper and some silver, despite the high amount of protection steel offers.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 06:35:40 pm by FantasticDorf »
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3377 on: August 01, 2020, 05:20:01 pm »

Thanks for the replies :D

Quote from: Mort Stroodle
I know dwarf appearance varies by civ, but does it also vary by sex? Could a particular civ have, say, shaved heads being in fashion for women while braided hair is all the rage for men?

There's nothing like that currently.  I think it'll still vary e.g. eye color if only one of the castes has eyes, but I'm not even sure about that.

I should probably interject that moustaches and facial hair are a hard-coded masculine facial feature, its not very... free to utilize but its there.

"hard-coded" = one set of square brackets in the raws away from being not the case  :P

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3378 on: August 01, 2020, 06:34:39 pm »

I should probably interject that moustaches and facial hair are a hard-coded masculine facial feature, its not very... free to utilize but its there.

"hard-coded" = one set of square brackets in the raws away from being not the case  :P

Yeah oops, i had to do a double take, i've been out of the modding scene for a little while and accrued rust.  :o
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Uthimienure

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3379 on: August 01, 2020, 07:48:15 pm »

Regarding different dimensions, does any of your inspiration come from Michael Moorcock's books, particularly The Knight, Queen, & King of the Swords trilogy and the Chronicles of Corum?  He uses the term "planes" rather than "dimensions", and many (if not most) of his other works use his concept of the multiverse of planes. His books have been favorites for me since the 80's. Yes, I deliberately didn't mention the Elric series because everyone must have read some of those.
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3380 on: August 01, 2020, 08:32:48 pm »

Regarding different dimensions, does any of your inspiration come from Michael Moorcock's books, particularly The Knight, Queen, & King of the Swords trilogy and the Chronicles of Corum?  He uses the term "planes" rather than "dimensions", and many (if not most) of his other works use his concept of the multiverse of planes. His books have been favorites for me since the 80's. Yes, I deliberately didn't mention the Elric series because everyone must have read some of those.

I'm curious as well, but it's worth noting he's mentioned the influence of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons before, and the original Deities and Demigods book not only drew heavily conceptually from Moorcock's work, but included (authorized, probably,) material directly referencing Michael Moorcock’s Elric of Melnibone, and HP Lovecraft’s Cthulhu Mythos, so it could be second hand influence. They are fantastic books, of course. Highly recommended. I'm sure there are fantasy series with "multiverses" that don't follow Moorcock's schema, but it's certainly been the standard for nearly half a century, and nearly as influential as Tolkien, for half the credit.

Source: Had the first print book as a child, and also https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/04/dd-retro-that-time-elric-of-melnibone-was-in-a-dd-book.html
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3381 on: August 01, 2020, 11:38:03 pm »

Would it be possible to include "infinite" procedurally generated planes? DF currently generates maps of a fixed size. Because DF procedurally generates history, it has to be confined to a finite area. But could DF grant players access to planes where no history occurs, just infinite pseudo-random wilderneness? Or what about an infinite plane where civilisation is just confined to the "middle"?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3382 on: August 01, 2020, 11:42:31 pm »

Would it be possible to include "infinite" procedurally generated planes? DF currently generates maps of a fixed size. Because DF procedurally generates history, it has to be confined to a finite area. But could DF grant players access to planes where no history occurs, just infinite pseudo-random wilderneness? Or what about an infinite plane where civilisation is just confined to the "middle"?
From Toady (about six posts above this one...)
Quote
For the infinite planes etc., we'd have to be much more careful, but it'd still be possible to have crucial places (travel/plane hubs, divine seats, capitals, etc.) have complete rich parallel histories, lessened only by the way that extraplanar things that touch them seem to disappear more or have less of a defined-yet-sprawling character (compared to worldgen farmland/etc.)  We should be able to get a long way like this though, in some senses as far as a lot of the works set in such multiverses which also focus almost entirely on the important bits.

In other mushier infinite setups, there might be nothing historical at all away from the core play zone, if there is even one of those.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 11:44:03 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Spriggans

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3383 on: August 03, 2020, 02:11:53 am »

Eventually, every items/buildings in the game will be textured, and not ASCII-ed.
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
2. Will this require a sprite/texture for the modded items/buildings or could we just give it an ASCII tile like today ?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 02:15:41 am by Spriggans »
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[ETHIC:MURDERING_DWARVES:UNTHINKABLE]
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3384 on: August 03, 2020, 03:07:44 am »

Eventually, every items/buildings in the game will be textured, and not ASCII-ed.
1. At this point, will we still be able to mod in new items/workshops by simply editing the raws ?
2. Will this require a sprite/texture for the modded items/buildings or could we just give it an ASCII tile like today ?

No, DF will allow for different tile sets, one of which is character based (the only one in Classic, the alternative one in Premium), however, I assume the separation of raws from tile sets means each "thing" will have to have some kind of identifier in the raws that has to be matched in the tile set(s) the mod supports. I assume you can specify a pre existing tile depicting one of the ASCII characters, one of the pre existing CP437 non ASCII characters, or a new one you come up with based on a character not present in CP437.
Thus, I assume it will use some default "tile missing" tile if the tile set used doesn't have a tile defined (and probably some error message), but the separation of text from tiles means all tile sets are just tiles to be loaded, with the image on those tiles being completely irrelevant to the code. However, I would expect Toady to try to make it easy to make tile set mods, in particular making it easy to reuse existing tile (e.g. the "S" tile for your modded in Spriggan creature, for instance).
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ArrowheadArcher

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3385 on: August 03, 2020, 12:31:47 pm »

Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3386 on: August 03, 2020, 12:47:09 pm »

Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?

I don't believe interests in devloping it like that way were discussed, but leaders already hold a significant amount of sway on how civs operate, for instance if a rival with a strong interest in religion and a few other mechanical gears like the villian intrigue encounter a rival sphere church they can use their influence to inter-site harrass its followers; to even start a holy war of the fire-worshipping nation upon the water worshipping one as they conflict.

Its much the way, a local family can maybe plot against a source of conflict such as a artifact claim, a count can get a number of actors and networks, while a king can mobilize the kingdom towards his goals, and often many villians are interested in climbing the ladder. Power obsessed and villiany-minded goblins overtaking leadership of human settlements and warping their behaviour with their views is not uncommon.



Also limegreen if a question please.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3387 on: August 03, 2020, 12:50:01 pm »

Can personality be tied to political beliefs? In the next version, will there be political beliefs and non-theism/anti-theism that will also develop much like personality?

Use lime green text when asking Toady questions, otherwise he won't see them. I've heard no indication of a politics rework coming soon, so no, not in the next version, neither if you mean "the Premium release" nor if you mean "the post-Premium pre-Big Wait release".

ArrowheadArcher

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3388 on: August 03, 2020, 05:22:24 pm »

Will the position tokens, currently unused in dwarf civs and only found on human gen civs, be expanded upon in later versions? Some suggestions might be an advisor (ADVISE_LEADERS) for leaders higher than expedition leader, a raid leader (ATTACK_ENEMIES) noble, a dedicated master architect (CONSTRUCTION_PERMITS) noble, and a return of the arsenal dwarf (EQUIPMENT_MANIFESTS and UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT, this might be rolled into militia commander instead).
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3389 on: August 04, 2020, 01:05:56 am »

Will the position tokens, currently unused in dwarf civs and only found on human gen civs, be expanded upon in later versions? Some suggestions might be an advisor (ADVISE_LEADERS) for leaders higher than expedition leader, a raid leader (ATTACK_ENEMIES) noble, a dedicated master architect (CONSTRUCTION_PERMITS) noble, and a return of the arsenal dwarf (EQUIPMENT_MANIFESTS and UPGRADE_SQUAD_EQUIPMENT, this might be rolled into militia commander instead).
Suggestions belong in the suggestions sub forum http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0.
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