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Author Topic: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19: Lurking Omni-Flu Edition  (Read 423937 times)

wierd

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Well, Given this recent news headline, and my country's absolutely batshit response to this crisis...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/health/children-coronavirus-viral-load-transmission-study-wellness/index.html


The USA is well and truly fucked.

Why? Because Betsy DeVoss is in denial about the need to not have in-class schooling for another year, coupled with this new bit of fun, about children carrying high viral loads. 


(Sarcasm at maximal, "Peels paint, withers flowers, and curdles milk on contact" levels)

Putting large numbers of children together in close proximity, that have been collected from a geographically large area, for many many hours for 5 days of every week during what is expected to be the height of the corona virus season this year, sounds like a fantastic, fully rational thing to do. I am sure that some spray sanitizer will be more than sufficient to prevent any transmission from shared classroom resources (like desks, water fountains, cafeteria tables, door handles, PE equipment, et al), and this is naturally a fully endorseable and desirable end-goal during this global emergency.

(/sarcasm)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:37:41 pm by wierd »
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McTraveller

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Yeah keep those kids home. While both parents are working?  Or are you going to force people to quit so they can stay home and watch their kids do school from home?  I mean I guess if you think everyone is unemployed anyway it doesn't matter, eh?

Are you going to watch my kids and make sure they do their schooling?

Like anything else, this is not as simple as merely "close all the schools."  Do you understand how much our society relies on the "childcare" aspect of public schools?  I wish we could change this "overnight", but I just don't see how that's possible.

I mean personally I guess if we had a hard lockdown for August, and we get our active cases per capita* down, we can get back to a somewhat normal school program.

I mean seriously - this is almost advocating for intentionally cancelling public education. Do we really want a generation of uneducated people?  We complain about how bad things are now, how bad will they be when we have even worse education?

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)
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MetalSlimeHunt

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That's hardly a good faith criticism. We all know the place that schools have in childcare as well as actual education, broken as that may be in the US.

That's why it was the government's responsibility to at the very least prepare an alternative which most people could follow instead of denying the need for months, bringing us to where we are now. Some of the states are trying, though that's pretty fucking hard with DeVoss up there trying to lie and threaten them into "back to normal" instead of offering any support. Though frankly, I think even leaving kids home alone is a better idea than doing nothing.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Bumber

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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

wierd

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I am very hesitant to accept that finding:

1) There is an implicit assumption that the vector is small because of innate qualities of the children, rather than because the children have been isolated to avoid contagion.  That remains to be seen, especially in light of the "Children under 5 have 100 times the viral load" study that was also recently published.

2) Reopening schools is a very political topic, and I am hesitant to be gung-ho on that. (acknowledging my bias)



I will patiently wait and see, but my internal doom-o-meter says this is a recipe ripe for disaster, because the close clustering of children is a massive magnification of transmission vector.   



Oh, Looks like the country that has their shit together conducted a study.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html

Quote
Older Children Spread the Coronavirus Just as Much as Adults, Large Study Finds

The study of nearly 65,000 people in South Korea suggests that school reopenings will trigger more outbreaks.

And in recognition of point 1 I just made, these folks rightly point out that the jury is still out on that.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/what-do-we-know-about-children-and-coronavirus-transmission/




« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 04:04:51 pm by wierd »
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Doomblade187

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Yeah keep those kids home. While both parents are working?  Or are you going to force people to quit so they can stay home and watch their kids do school from home?  I mean I guess if you think everyone is unemployed anyway it doesn't matter, eh?

Are you going to watch my kids and make sure they do their schooling?

Like anything else, this is not as simple as merely "close all the schools."  Do you understand how much our society relies on the "childcare" aspect of public schools?  I wish we could change this "overnight", but I just don't see how that's possible.

I mean personally I guess if we had a hard lockdown for August, and we get our active cases per capita* down, we can get back to a somewhat normal school program.

I mean seriously - this is almost advocating for intentionally cancelling public education. Do we really want a generation of uneducated people?  We complain about how bad things are now, how bad will they be when we have even worse education?

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)
The simple solution to the childcare aspect of schools is "Pay people to stay home."

While I understand that some families are comprised entirely of essential workers making minimum wage, stipend for parents to stay home for the kids (easy to tell via tax returns, btw) would allow one or both to quit work to perform childcare, and replace missing work income.
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Frumple

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Mind you, while it's not actually quite that simple -- disrupted work, even if it's compensated, can cause a long term decrease in income by screwing with advancement/promotion/work history/etc. -- it would certainly be a good start.

... or would have been a good start several months ago, along with not having a staggeringly fucked up response on the education/child care front. Staggeringly fucking everything up was probably the only possible results with a murderous piece of shit like devos at the highest levels of educational decision making, though :-\
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misko27

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Oh shit my mother may have SLE (Lupus). She was found (when she finally got to her checkup after lockdown) to have had an oppurtunistic fungal infection in the esophagus, which is almost entirely associated with AIDs or Hepatitis C. So when she tested negative for everything reasonable... and the last test result to come in was the ANA (anti-nuclear antibodies), which she tested positive for (what the fuck is a cytoplasmic and speckled pattern at 1:320? Google has given me details yet what it means has not been forthcoming).

This is a long way of saying that if it turns out she's going to need fucking hydroxychloroquine now and we have to wrestle Stella Immanuel's disciples for it I'm gonna be unbelievably pissed.
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Reelya

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Does it have adverse effects on females? Or have there only been studies on males?

Medical studies are usually exclusively or predominately males. Which is also related to unreliable dosage and side-effect information for women. I'm sure there's a reason, and I'm sure they didn't compare ti to the downsides.

I've read historic accounts about that, but I kind of doubt that statement, that this is the case right now. One argument is that the articles bemoaning about it always reference historical accounts rather than current statistics. They wouldn't write the articles like that if your statement was correct.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/13/the-female-problem-male-bias-in-medical-trials

1993 was the year that congress mandated into law female representation in medical studies. Sure, that's not ancient history but it is almost 30 years now, that this has been a legal mandate, and it was a thing people were aware about before that, so it's not like nobody was including women in studies before that. So it's a stretch to use the word "are" in that sentence of yours. It is correct that they tend to use male animals in the more theoretical lab studies, but those are not human studies. Saying you need female rabbits to represent human women is more questionable.

But there's a reason that advocates focus on those non-human theoretical studies, it's because for actual human clinical trial of drugs, they definitely include a proportionate amount of women. That's why for the recent stuff in that article they're all focusing on theoretical animal studies rather than saying they have any evidence that human women are being under-represented in trials of drugs intended for actual human use. Note that they almost exclusively talk about the problem of "male animals" in that article, not the lack of female human test subjects. The human testing thing was mandated decades ago. So they're left with complaining that they predominantly use male mice in experiments, and this is somehow an anti-female thing. I'd argue that it's actually a practicality thing. The female mice make more mice, so the male mice are the expendable ones for the experiments. There's no gender superiority or male-bias in using the male animals for experiments, just practical considerations.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 08:08:31 pm by Reelya »
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Starver

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Misko: On the plus side, your mother gets to transform into a wolf-beast every full moon, which is probably pretty cool once she tames the animal within and uses her powers for good.

No, wait, that's lyncanthropy, not lupus. For some reason I always get the two mixed up.

(Srsly, though, all the best.)
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ChairmanPoo

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Oh shit my mother may have SLE (Lupus). She was found (when she finally got to her checkup after lockdown) to have had an oppurtunistic fungal infection in the esophagus, which is almost entirely associated with AIDs or Hepatitis C. So when she tested negative for everything reasonable... and the last test result to come in was the ANA (anti-nuclear antibodies), which she tested positive for (what the fuck is a cytoplasmic and speckled pattern at 1:320? Google has given me details yet what it means has not been forthcoming).

Thatīs two separate things. The first one is where the antinuclear antibody is sticking. The second is the antibody titer. You dillute the sample until it stops being positive. 1:320 is pretty high TBH


Quote
This is a long way of saying that if it turns out she's going to need fucking hydroxychloroquine now and we have to wrestle Stella Immanuel's disciples for it I'm gonna be unbelievably pissed.
This is not really my field, but itīs not necessarily lupus (there are a number of ANA+ autoimmune conditions. Itīs not specific) and the treatment is not necessarily HCQ. Dont rush to conclusions. Wait until you talk with the rheuma guy
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Eschar

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"if"

- misko (emphasis mine)
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martinuzz

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There's still some hope for Brasil.  Bolsonaro's wife now has contracted Covid.  If she dies, Bolsonaro might change his stance on Covid being just a minor flu.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

feelotraveller

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In another sign that Friday must have come and gone-

WHO reports another record for global increase in new case, 292,527 on 31 July.
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Starver

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Too much testing!  #MEGA
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