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[Leafsnail]

That's the entire point of this game, Solarn.

[Solarn]

Yes, but people in this thread are talking about the concepts of Liberalism and Communism in real life as if they were occupying the same end of a linear spectrum!

And people all across America actually believe that! Even though with a bit of thinking, even Joe Average Sixpack Hockeymom could understand how wrong it is!

[Leafsnail]

Yes, it's not like there are posters and placards proclaiming Obama as a socialist and communist all over the place...

From the Conservatives' point of view (and a CCS game would be created from their point of view) commies and liberals are the same thing.

[Solarn]

But that's stupid. American Conservatives can't all be stupid. I have several Conservative friends (granted, we're nowhere near America) and they are actually quite intelligent.

[Leafsnail]

But this game is supposed to be satirizing massive over generalizations.  I mean, are all scientists and police officers really conservative, or is this supposed to be part of the satire?

[Granite26]

But that's stupid. American Conservatives can't all be stupid. I have several Conservative friends (granted, we're nowhere near America) and they are actually quite intelligent.

viewing what's going on with the health care system and the financial system as socializing those areas of the economy is stupid?


Actually, if we're going crazy with this, that's a good idea... going around to different businesses, all of which want their share of the government teat, and convincing them they need to wean themselves off...  To a certain extent, shouldn't conservative (business) objective be to roll back laws?

Anywho, you do your wander in, and you're not trying to destroy the capitalist regime, you're trying to destroy the machinery of state dominance, and convince them that their reliance on the government to help and fund them is holding back their success.

[Solarn]

But that's stupid. American Conservatives can't all be stupid. I have several Conservative friends (granted, we're nowhere near America) and they are actually quite intelligent.

viewing what's going on with the health care system and the financial system as socializing those areas of the economy is stupid?

Yes. While government takeover of lethally wounded services is, by definition, socializing them, you get to keep your incompetent private health care and banks too, there will simply be a government option. Also, socializing certain areas of the economy /= socialism.

I LIVE IN A FORMER SOCIALIST BLOC COUNTRY, FUCKHEAD! DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME WHAT SOCIALISM IS AND ISN'T!

[Aldaris]

But that's stupid. American Conservatives can't all be stupid. I have several Conservative friends (granted, we're nowhere near America) and they are actually quite intelligent.

viewing what's going on with the health care system and the financial system as socializing those areas of the economy is stupid?

Yes. While government takeover of lethally wounded services is, by definition, socializing them, you get to keep your incompetent private health care and banks too, there will simply be a government option. Also, socializing certain areas of the economy /= socialism.

I LIVE IN A FORMER SOCIALIST BLOC COUNTRY, FUCKHEAD! DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME WHAT SOCIALISM IS AND ISN'T!

Angry Commie Internet Man!
Quick! Kill it!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[/joke]

[E. Albright]

viewing what's going on with the health care system and the financial system as socializing those areas of the economy is stupid?

I'd not say stupid, I'd say naive or ill-informed. The financial bailout imbroglio last year was a massive handout (with few strings attached) to private entities responsible for the mess. They were "too big to fail", but the logical conclusion of "if they're too important to be let fail, they should be publicly owned, so as to socialize both risk and gain" was instead replaced with "if they're too important to be let fail, the public should briefly interrupt their hands-off stance for long enough to prop them up financially before butting back out, so as to socialize only risk". In health care reform, socialized medicine was never on the table - it wasn't even in the room. Socialized health insurance is a scared, beaten figure hiding in a shadowy corner of the room. The current health care socialist bugaboo is, what, a means-tested public option to be allowed to compete with private insurers for customers the insurers don't really want?

The point upthread about a CCS needing to go around trying to convince corporations to wean themselves off of welfare provided by the corporatist state is, alas, not without a point.


Oops, forgot the earlier "point" I was going to make. Liberal = commie-socialist because commies want to take your stuff (by socializing the means of production), and liberals want to take your stuff (by having non-minimalistic taxes). Likewise, commies want to give your stuff to undeserving loafers ("from each as they can, to each as they need", etc., at least in principle) and liberals want to give your stuff to undeserving loafers (by providing some sort of social safety net). See? Exactly the same thing, so long as you ignore all the differences... which are pretty trivial when you think about it. I mean, seriously: how much of a difference is there really between regulating private enterprise and abolishing it?!?

[Granite26]

I'm not trying to aggravate this, but

  I've always heard communist bloc, and to me they are two seperate things.  In my mind, it's possible to be socialist(state controls stuff) and democratic(people decide en-masse what the state does) at the same time, while communist(as implimented in Eastern Europe and implying totalarianism) and democratic aren't as likely.

  According to the political theory that I am familiar with, most of Europe is now considered to be highly socialist (heavy government involvement in most facets of peoples lives), but is still very democratic and thus free.

  An example I'm dealing with at work is the inability of my company to publish an org chart because of business rules in Europe.


Which leads me to Albright:  Your facts are 100% right.  The only argument I have is that it's a slippery slope.  (On a personal level, I agree with you... either you're hands off or you're hands on, and if you say 'too big to fail', the government has a moral obligation to regulate... It's the 'too big to fail' that bugs me)  Claims of socialism are 50% strawman exagerations and 50% cardinal directions ('It's socialism of here' in a manner similar to 'It's East of here'), but given the slippery slope (do we want to start down that path?) I don't think they are... too far wrong.

[Servant Corps]

The slippery slope is a fallacy. (EDIT: I am not saying it's wrong, prehaps you can go down that path...but at any moment, you can stop going down the slippery slope. It's a fallicious argument, and you need to use a better argument against welfare liberalism.)

I mean, are all scientists and police officers really conservative, or is this supposed to be part of the satire?

On that point. Scientists support evolution and the theory of global warming, yet support animal research and nuclear power. It would make sense for them to be classifed as moderates, but instead they are classifed as conservatives. Why?

[Solarn]

I'm not trying to aggravate this, but

  I've always heard communist bloc, and to me they are two seperate things.  In my mind, it's possible to be socialist(state controls stuff) and democratic(people decide en-masse what the state does) at the same time, while communist(as implimented in Eastern Europe and implying totalarianism) and democratic aren't as likely.

  According to the political theory that I am familiar with, most of Europe is now considered to be highly socialist (heavy government involvement in most facets of peoples lives), but is still very democratic and thus free.

  An example I'm dealing with at work is the inability of my company to publish an org chart because of business rules in Europe.

First of all, sorry for the outburst. It's kind of a berserk button with me.

Secondly, while what you are saying is true, we've always referred to our past selves as "socialist bloc" because when it was here, it called itself socialism, by a sort of twisted Marxist-Leninist doctrine that holds socialism (state controlled economy and commerce, planned production, forced equality, basically a "workers' dictatorship" with democratic trappings) as the immediate predecessor of communism (communally owned everything, no outwards commerce, production to meet needs, true equality, happy fun land) and then turned it on its head (the "workers' dictatorship" was controlled by a self-destroying elite of indoctrinated Communist intelligentsia, Party members were culled by the hundreds in petty power struggles and the planned economy were a joke).

And I stand by my point that while socialism involves socializing economy and services, partly socializing a few key areas of those is nowhere near socialism.

And really, Europe as socialist? While I guess socializing parts of our economy and services is much more common here than in GLORIOUS CAPITALISTIC FREE-MARKET AMERICA, socially we're nowhere near socialism. In fact, most current European leaders got to their posts on platforms of heavy nationalism and thinly-veiled intolerance.

Also, man, that's a lot of words beginning with social- in a few sentences.

[Leafsnail]

On that point. Scientists support evolution and the theory of global warming, yet support animal research and nuclear power. It would make sense for them to be classifed as moderates, but instead they are classifed as conservatives. Why?

Simple.  The LCS regards scientist as evil corporate whores who will torture animals and destroy the planet just for their own bank balances, so that's how they are portrayed in-game.  Same for police officers.

[Granite26]

On that point. Scientists support evolution and the theory of global warming, yet support animal research and nuclear power. It would make sense for them to be classifed as moderates, but instead they are classifed as conservatives. Why?

Game is from the PoV of the LCS, where the great can be the enemy of the good.  In CCS, the global warming and evolution would be sufficient to mark scientists as Liberal.  Technically most scientists tend to be... Democrats, if not liberal.  (Personally, I think this has to do with government teats and who funds science, but that's opinion)

First of all, sorry for the outburst. It's kind of a berserk button with me.

And I stand by my point that while socialism involves socializing economy and services, partly socializing a few key areas of those is nowhere near socialism.

And really, Europe as socialist? While I guess socializing parts of our economy and services is much more common here than in GLORIOUS CAPITALISTIC FREE-MARKET AMERICA, socially we're nowhere near socialism. In fact, most current European leaders got to their posts on platforms of heavy nationalism and thinly-veiled intolerance.

1. No worries...

2.  It's a cardinal direction thing.  I'm crazy libertarian man, so rather than looking at the world on a Democratic/Republican line, everything looks like it's skewed towards socialism for me.  Socialist isn't intended as an insult, nor, really meant as a type of government.  It's just equivilent to saying that governments are liberal or conservative.  I understand that you're standing in the middle of your political universe, and from where you're standing, socialism is even further in that direction.

[Capital Fish]

On that point. Scientists support evolution and the theory of global warming, yet support animal research and nuclear power. It would make sense for them to be classifed as moderates, but instead they are classifed as conservatives. Why?

Simple.  The LCS regards scientist as evil corporate whores who will torture animals and destroy the planet just for their own bank balances, so that's how they are portrayed in-game.  Same for police officers.

A little off topic, but what would stem-cell researchers be regarded as? In game, of course...