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Author Topic: Ulitmate Melee Dwarf Guide - Understand Sparring, Demonstration and More!  (Read 39446 times)

TheFlame52

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I tried to give each of my squads 2 months of training and the other 10 months off, using your system. However, everyone is training all year 'round. any idea why?
I don't see how this is a problem.

bennerman

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because eventually everyone would starve? I prefer to conscript EVERY adult, but I can't have every adult training all the time. Also, they were all fresh recruits, so no discipline
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Shonai_Dweller

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Training Dwarves won't starve themselves even when they're actually scheduled to train, unless you've found a serious bug. Your recruits probably don't have anything better to do. Haul rocks, or practise my axe swing? Hmmm...
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bennerman

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the problem is, if EVERYONE is training, no one is growing or fishing or hunting
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milo christiansen

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If someone is idle they will go to the barracks and do individual training, that is (probably) what is happening in your case.
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bennerman

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maybe. I'll check it out on my next fort
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Friti

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I tend to avoid most attachment issues by having a couple squads rotate on/off duty when training up and taking off their gear when not on active-duty.  Tends to shuffle the gear around every couple months between dwarves so attachment usually isn't an issue.

Reason I bring up bucklers is I think (unconfirmed) the order of prescedence for attacks on a dwarf is:

Shield Block  >  Weapon Parry  >  Dodge  >  Armor Check  >  Fleshy/Squishy Dwarf 
From what I've seen, missing from dodge skill comes before any of that.

That wouldn't surprise me - I wrote that up pretty quick, but there definitely is an order of precedence regarding how hits are resolved.  The point I was trying to get across is that bucklers are smaller and have a potential to block attacks during training less often, forcing checks further down the priority list.  IE: Weapon Parry/Skill

I tend to like this for a couple reasons.
  • A weapon parry raises the attack skill, meaning the dwarf becomes more skilled with his blade faster, and more effective quicker parrying with it.
  • Bucklers I believe are smaller and weigh less than their larger shield counterparts.  Weight plays into encumbrance, which will directly affect how quickly your dwarf moves and fights.  A dwarf that's encumbered will fight and train slower.


Personally, I like dwarves that are quick, well skilled, and get in one or more devastating hits before they get attacked themselves.  Training certain skills in a weighted fashion earlier increases their ability to get that important first-strike(s) in before an enemy can respond... and their ability to dodge and close quickly minimizes the time they spend getting picked off by ranged attacks (IE: Arrows).  Otherwise using the traditional method they block with the shield alot(not so bad), they're much slower (BAD) and tend to get wailed on alot (Very Bad) more and respond with their own attacks less.  I prefer not to give those pesky elves and goblins more opportunities to hit my dwarves.  Even if they're armored up like a tank and 8 out of 10 attacks don't get through, all it takes is a bad roll for a dwarf to become skewered.  I'd rather my dwarves be a bit more nimble and able to get their attacks in on the enemy quicker for more opportunities to disable them first.  That's why I favor this method.  This mirrors the mentality 'the best defense is a good offense.'.  There are exceptions to this (titans, firebreathing, webs, etc) in which full armor/shields are preferable, but hopefully by that point your dwarves will be veterans and deserving of the better armor, and able to mitigate the consequences of the increased weight the same.

To put it into common RPG terms... I'm favoring better Initative and increased number of attacks over increased AC early on to get more effective rookie dwarves.  This ties in well with NCommander's excellent guide, just refining it a bit to further weight certain skills being trained over others early on.

To further expand, I've been training my rookie dwarves with leather/bone armor... sometimes with a Mail shirt over the leather armor for a bit more resiliency.  I don't give them a metal breastplate till they hit at least level 6 and they don't earn plate armor elsewhere till level 8 or 10 or so, usually starting with gauntlets and going from there.  This is usually as an average for a squad (Dwarf Therapist glance at all squad members) so I don't have to micromanage each dwarf individually.  They succeed and fail as a cohesive unit afterall.  ... and as a side-benefit, your medics get a bit of training on your rookies as they train and handle small stuff (hunting, minor beasts from caverns, small goblin attacks, elven caravans, etc.) so that when real trouble shows up they're world-class surgeons... assuming they're not completely drunk off their asses again.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 03:39:21 pm by Friti »
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taptap

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I like skullsploders idea - so I made me some pillar barracks with only a single z-level drop, wooden walls and pillars, flat floor and a single ramp to get back in the lower level and about 5 water. In this setup with the normal kind of armour I use, I had no serious injuries in several seasons, one upper lip messed up, but it healed before I noticed, and one or two bruises. In one case I had a hit against an eye deflected by the cloak - so I am not sure this will remain without injuries. It nicely spreads some swimming experience, I didn't notice any significant armour user gains and believe it slows down training by sparring (i.e. sparring stops after a drop) while giving full or slightly increased demonstration gains. (40.19)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 01:19:37 pm by taptap »
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Ravendarksky

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I like skullsploders idea - so I made me some pillar barracks with only a single z-level drop, wooden walls and pillars, flat floor and a single ramp to get back in the lower level and about 5 water. In this setup with the normal kind of armour I use, I had no serious injuries in several seasons, one upper lip messed up, but it healed before I noticed, and one or two bruises. In one case I had a hit against an eye deflected by the cloak - so I am not sure this will remain without injuries. It nicely spreads some swimming experience, I didn't notice any significant armour user gains and believe it slows down training by sparring (i.e. sparring stops after a drop) while giving full or slightly increased demonstration gains. (40.19)

I've used this a lot now and I've decided I don't like it. It really slows down sparring for negligible gains in swimming and armour. I've decided it's better to have dedicated separate set-up for these skills... UNLESS dwarfs are fully trained in weapon skills already, in which case it's a good way of improving already good warrior dwarfs.

It can definitely kill dwarfs too, I've had two fatal injuries so far (broken necks). My setup is a 5x5 checkerboard room with 2 z level drop onto featherwood floors.

Best way to train swimming is to have anyone entering the barracks dropped into a 10x1 long corridor of 5/7 depth water which they have to path through to get to the training zone. This is plenty for getting your dwarfs that first important level in swimming.

I'm experimenting with armour training still but my current idea is to have dwarfs flushed down a series of 1 z level falls in full platemail. I'll report back when I eventually get time to set it up.
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Cheedows

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Just started reading this thread again, and thought it might be helpful to look at this thread I made awhile ago.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150749.msg6230629#msg6230629

Basically it's some very light research that shows hitting things using shields, with armour on can rapidly improve armour user skills.
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Borge

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the problem is, if EVERYONE is training, no one is growing or fishing or hunting

Set the barracks to squad training only without individual training. That way they will only train as a group. Hopefully should work.
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Albedo

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Several minor Q's -

1) Any reason to make the (tops of the) "pillars" themselves out of wood? Being knocked on your butt dangerous at all?  (if it even happens?)


2) I have ~some~ feather tree wood. A 7x7 design such as Skullsploder's would take 24 logs to floor the bottom. Is FT significantly better than, say, willow for this purpose, or is ~any~ (average) wood such a vast improvement over soil/stone (< 1/4 the density - see spoiler, below) that it's just gilding the lily?

(For reference, comparison of feather tree, willow, generic wood and "stone")
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


(And, b/c it's easy to copy/paste, a full list of "light(er) weight" woods, and heavier...)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


3) Does the material of a floor matter beneath water?

I've heard anecdotally that deeper water (multiple z-levels) reduces the chance of being stunned/hurt when landing after a long(er) fall, so was wondering what the "falling into water with a floor below that" mechanics were.


I have just bought an entire forests' worth of dead animal from the dwarven caravan (a couple hundred bins) so I'll report back later on the injuries sustained with leather robes covering the remaining skin. It should convert those otherwise-useless hits to the fingers into meaningful armour user gain.

Any results worth reporting on this side-project?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 12:48:36 pm by Albedo »
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ldog

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On the shields vs bucklers thing:
item_shield

[OBJECT:ITEM]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_SHIELD]
[NAME:shield:shields]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[BLOCKCHANCE:20]
[UPSTEP:2]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_BUCKLER]
[NAME:buckler:bucklers]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[BLOCKCHANCE:10]
[UPSTEP:1]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]

So a buckler is half the size (and therefore weight) but has half the base block chance and lower armor level.
A willow shield has a weight of <1, I don't have any heavier wooden shields available ATM, but I imagine they aren't going to weigh much more.
So not worth using bucklers over shields.

Also have to say not a fan of leather/no armor. Sticking even the raw recruits in full steel doesn't seem to hamper their training, and I would much rather them be gaining armor/shield skill while sparring. On a side note, and I brought this up in the marksdwarf thread, but I haven't been able to get my marksdwarves to gain any armor/shield skill. They have training sessions in between archery range but never spar. I don't seem to recall them not gaining armor skill prior to 40.24. I suppose I could equip them with hammers as well, but wondering if anyone has found any other solution.

Here's something possibly worth mentioning in this guide: Much as it seemed a good idea to give all my soldiers gold flasks (I'm swimming in gold current embark) they weigh 19 empty, as opposed to a waterskin which weighs less than 1...
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Ravendarksky

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Ideal barracks size

Are there any drawbacks/advantages to having a barracks of a certain size? Also is there any reason to not have multiple squads training in the one barracks?

Are there any drawbacks to having every single one of my squads training in a 2x1 barracks containing only a candy armour stand?
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Galena

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Advice from my last fortress: Do not put your barracks next to chasms. Dwarves can phase through walls rarely while sparring.
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