I'm interested in playing mafia, but other than reading some tutorials and playing the real life version I have little experience. Do you think I'd still be able to do okay in this?
Plus it helps you get accrued to the particular "spirit" of this particular forum's mafia. It's a bit different from what I've seen.I believe there is no difference if there are some sorts of characteristics you see :P
In
Wooo for my first Mafia game! Please help me if I am utterly bad.
In
Wooo for my first Mafia game! Please help me if I am utterly bad.
You should really play a BM first kiddo.
Me too, please and please (only omg, how will I handle this and the other game too?.... but let me worry about that.... and I surely will... and find a way.... I really wanna!)I vouch for her.
Yeah, I definitely haven't played this Mafia before, but I've been following the current BM in the hope someone would drop out and I could play.Me too, please and please (only omg, how will I handle this and the other game too?.... but let me worry about that.... and I surely will... and find a way.... I really wanna!)I vouch for her.
But for Persus..unsure. I didn't see much on him :/
Regardless, It'll help if people read these.
Regardless, It'll help if people read these. They're fun no matter what.Thanks for the links, I just read through 1, and I plan on reading several more, other than the 70 page one (seemed too intimidating)
Supernatural 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106608.msg3165006#msg3165006)
Supernatural 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.msg2473824#msg2473824)
Supernatural 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74938.msg1875341#msg1875341)
Supernatural 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1436015#msg1436015)
Supernatural 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59269.msg1328001#msg1328001)
I can join this now that WC3 is over.Ditto, let's begin this!
I don't really want to play with beginners but it seems I have no choice.
I am utterly eager to play, but that's not likely to change and I'm also patient. If one or more experienced (and I really, really hope known to be active! I can't give this game experience that I lack, but I sure will give it involvement and interaction!) player(s) sign up, I volunteer to be the first newbie moved to the replacement list if that's what Mephansteras picks to do.
You know I'm just stupid enough to think this is a good idea, but Imp convinced me. I'm in if you want me.O_o
Lets see how many heads I can rack up in a single night, I have a high score to beat.
I am utterly eager to play, but that's not likely to change and I'm also patient. If one or more experienced (and I really, really hope known to be active! I can't give this game experience that I lack, but I sure will give it involvement and interaction!) player(s) sign up, I volunteer to be the first newbie moved to the replacement list if that's what Mephansteras picks to do.
The 9-player thing is a minimum not a maximum.
You know I'm just stupid enough to think this is a good idea, but Imp convinced me. I'm in if you want me.
Lets see how many heads I can rack up in a single night, I have a high score to beat.
I'm really wondering what you did backstage. That's some exceptional enthusiasm there! :DYou know I'm just stupid enough to think this is a good idea, but Imp convinced me. I'm in if you want me.
Lets see how many heads I can rack up in a single night, I have a high score to beat.
Oh wow! Now I'm going to get to read more of Max's play! *capers*
I do so solemnly admit I have not yet finished reading all of the previous Supernatural games. However I am working on them, in my own special way. I offer Max's reappearance as an odd form of proof that I'm still working on them and continue to do so!
I'm really wondering what you did backstage. That's some exceptional enthusiasm there! :DYou know I'm just stupid enough to think this is a good idea, but Imp convinced me. I'm in if you want me.
Lets see how many heads I can rack up in a single night, I have a high score to beat.
Oh wow! Now I'm going to get to read more of Max's play! *capers*
I do so solemnly admit I have not yet finished reading all of the previous Supernatural games. However I am working on them, in my own special way. I offer Max's reappearance as an odd form of proof that I'm still working on them and continue to do so!
Keep wondering. ;D He can tell you or not as he pleases. But I promise PMs from me to other players will stop once the game starts, unless I'm explicitly told I can PM other players ;p Now, backstage stuff.... Ehh. If it's in the rules and in my role, whatever.I kneeeeww it~~ :I
Not too sure if I should in, or seek redemption in another round of BM.
Sucking up doesn't get you better roles. :PAww pff :I :P
Sorry for the delay. Cold hit me harder than I'd expected. Should have the game started tomorrow.
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?I don't even know what most of them do, so you know, something good might be the best answer. I guess detects are always useful, if a little vanilla. I don't really see the point in playing supernatural so you can play a vanilla role.
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?Sorry I totally missed that one.
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?Rolefishing already? ;)
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?I am rational and inquisitive and I try to suspect all players. I do this regardless of my alignment when I care about the game.
Max White— What do you hope to learn from the question you just asked Tiruin?You know it is generally considered poor form to interject on peoples questions before they have been answered. It has the possibility to alter how they will answer, kind of defeating the point. Subtle form of buddying you see.
You know it is generally considered poor form to interject on peoples questions before they have been answered. It has the possibility to alter how they will answer, kind of defeating the point. Subtle form of buddying you see.It's perfectly fair to wait until after Tiruin has answered. On reasoning it through, you're quite right in that it was bad form of me to be impatient in this regard. So in fact, we can pick this up after her response. My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?
Very interesting that out of all the questions asked so far you specifically zoned in on the one directed at Tiruin. I'm left wondering why. We will get to that once I have my answers.
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?
It's perfectly fair to wait until after Tiruin has answered. On reasoning it through, you're quite right in that it was bad form of me to be impatient in this regard. So in fact, we can pick this up after her response. My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?Eh, its day 1, the most valid reason to lynch somebody is because they are acting like scum.
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?Well in the only Mafia game I've played on the forum I got Night killed D1 so being knight would be nice. That, thief, and Monster Hunter all seem like the most interesting types.
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?Town: Scumhunting everyone and worrying about whether I picked the guy who was actually scum.
Persus13— Which players are you most familiar with here?Imp and Kleril, as they are the only ones I've played with.
From what I'm told I'm the worst player to have in any mafia game ever.I'm sure you've won more games than me so you can't be the worst. There can only be one. Still, do you intend to follow up on any of the answers people have given to your catch-all question? Or are you going to save us all some time and admit that you're scum already?
Eh, its day 1, the most valid reason to lynch somebody is because they are acting like scum.You see 'acting like scum' is quite nebulous. The most concrete scummy behaviour in my eyes is shown in patterns of votes, interaction with confirmed scum, strength of cases and general game-engagement. All of which are hard to see clearly on the first day. There are, however, certain Day One actions that set off alarm bells for me.
So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?
Imp and Kleril, as they are the only ones I've played with.What impression do you have of Imp and Kleril's playstyles?
I've never actually played Mafia before.Oh! I'm sure you'll pick it up just fine. From any of the answers any of the other players have given to questions, does anything strike you as suspicious?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?
Caz: One of many new faces to me! Tell me, have you much experience with games of this nature that aren't as clear cut?
Caz— Do you cave easily under pressure?
You see 'acting like scum' is quite nebulous. The most concrete scummy behaviour in my eyes is shown in patterns of votes, interaction with confirmed scum, strength of cases and general game-engagement. All of which are hard to see clearly on the first day. There are, however, certain Day One actions that set off alarm bells for me.If scumtells are a little murky it is because scum tends to be pretty murky, especially when things like interactions with confirmed scum don't exist yet. Its day 1, if you want absolute and clear cut guild lines I have bad news for you, they don't actually exist. The best day 1 tells are the ones that work at the time. People make all sorts of mistakes, and then you press them on it and you see what they do.
What I should have said is that I don't think anyone's early game is particularly good, because of the paucity of information. Also, when I make a mistake of play I try to own up to it: it was wrong of me to question your questioning before the original respondent had responded and it was right of you to pick up on that. I've got my own ideas about this, but do you think there's such a thing as a good Day One scum-tell?
Nope! I have no idea what I'm doing. Played a few beginner mafias and enjoyed the #mafia irc. I read through the previous Supernatural games to get a feel, though. Any common newbie mistakes I should watch out for?Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?
Imp— There are a lot of players, do you intend to apply pressure to all of them?Oh, I really want to! In the ongoing BM I had trouble counting to 8, I needed to make notes and double check myself when I was trying to keep tabs on 'everyone'. That doesn't make me feel super confident that I can count to 11. In that BM I noticed that I have some trouble with simultaneous multiple followup; 2 seems to be my current comfort zone as far as time and mental dexterity goes and I've made careful forays into pressing 3 at once.
Cmega3— What's the biggest thing you've learned from your recent playing experience?I've never actually played Mafia before.
PersusImp can be really invested in Mafia and plays very intensely (and often posts huge walls of Text). I didn't get a read on him as much because when I played with him he was being attacked by multiple people and was either lashing out at who he thought responsible for buddying him or trying to defend himself.Imp and Kleril, as they are the only ones I've played with.What impression do you have of Imp and Kleril's playstyles?
Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum. What scum variety are you, by the way?
Oh, I really want to! In the ongoing BM I had trouble counting to 8, I needed to make notes and double check myself when I was trying to keep tabs on 'everyone'. That doesn't make me feel super confident that I can count to 11. In that BM I noticed that I have some trouble with simultaneous multiple followup; 2 seems to be my current comfort zone as far as time and mental dexterity goes and I've made careful forays into pressing 3 at once.Do you keep notes in a file on likely scum candidates? Would you share all of your findings with the rest of the town? If not, why?
Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?Probably survivor. They tend to be disliked by both town and scum and so don't live very long after the MC.
Caz: I haven't seen or heard of you before. You new like me or just haven't been in anything I've noticed?I'm pretty green, yeah. Do you have reads on anyone in the game yet? Who looks the most town to you so far?
A general question for all:
Supernatural 5 ended with the escape of Scum Webadict and a banishment/KOS declaration on him. The OP made mention that it could be an interesting backstory for a future Supernatural if one was needed. Do you think this game will prove to connect to that game in a way that includes that backstory?
notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.
It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum. What scum variety are you, by the way?Ok so tip 1 then: Nobody is so stupid that they will just admit to being scum. If you want to play effectively, try actually doing something that has the potential to get results rather than these useless questions to try and appear to be helpful.
Oh, I really want to! In the ongoing BM I had trouble counting to 8, I needed to make notes and double check myself when I was trying to keep tabs on 'everyone'. That doesn't make me feel super confident that I can count to 11. In that BM I noticed that I have some trouble with simultaneous multiple followup; 2 seems to be my current comfort zone as far as time and mental dexterity goes and I've made careful forays into pressing 3 at once.Do you keep notes in a file on likely scum candidates? Would you share all of your findings with the rest of the town? If not, why?
Looks like I'm going to have to get out a notebook. Keeping 10 names and suspicions is a bit difficult.
A general question for all:Hope so, just because back story is fun. Not likely, from the opening text, and Wubba ain't here to play the role (And it would have to be Wubba) but still, there is a hope.
Supernatural 5 ended with the escape of Scum Webadict and a banishment/KOS declaration on him. The OP made mention that it could be an interesting backstory for a future Supernatural if one was needed. Do you think this game will prove to connect to that game in a way that includes that backstory?
Whups, meant to ask a second general question too:Vampires have a history of being over somewhat over powered, so I guess that would be easy mode. Apart from that I only know one third party, and that was Toony the Devil. That looks like a somewhat tricky role now that one of them has won and people are unlikely to ever take a deal again.
Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?
Most of the time people tend to pose questions to specific people, sometimes backed up with a vote to pressure them into a response. It's just this thread has a ton of general questions to all.-snip-You are right, I just seemed to notice everyone was posting questions to all, while notquitethere posted specific questions to specific people. I thought that seemed kind of suspicious, and I just wanted to get a small test run at applying pressure. However, I'm canceling my vote for now until more evidence comes along.
How would you describe your own playstyle?
How would you characterise your playstyle?
There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.
How is this suspicious? Do you respond to questions via your scum secretary? What a weak argument.
@Imp: No, but that would be amusing if I had.
Or if it turns out to be a typographical error?-snip-What if he did it on purpose, and it's a red herring?
-snip-What if he did it on purpose, and it's a red herring?
Or if it turns out to be a typographical error?
-snip-What if he did it on purpose, and it's a red herring?
Then this is more of bastard mod than I'd understood from the reading of previous play, and especially the beginner friendly part. That makes me think he'd put in extra clues, not extra (or even any) red herrings.
No, I think it's an unlikely mistake (but I'll believe it if he says that's what it was and will drop this then pointless theory), or a huge clue - a repeated twice (you... 11 others; the 12) in an otherwise pretty short and to the point game opening post. Those coming from the current BM (or following it) would also be aware that the number of players in the game is something to pay attention too, that became an issue that remained an issue... right, no talking about currently played games outside of the currently played game.
None the less, if I was running a D&D game with players, I'd feel very confident that I'd dropped a 'reasonable to catch series of clues' even for newbie players - presuming the newbies did what I asked (and what several of them said they were doing).
Here's my concern, though: What if you're wrong, and we get no mod intervention to tell us whether or not we're completely off track? We'd end up with a waste of a day. I say we hold out on this train of thought until our glorious leader says something.Watch this, I know a magic trick.
So Jim: What was the most dangerous scumteam in your opinion?
All vets: Any tips for a Supernatural Newb?
I'll ask a general question:
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?
Jim Groovester: So here we are once again, it has been some time. How are you? Anyway as i recall it said somewhere that to keep this newby friendly we will have the same role selection as last game, do you think that means the same type of scum?
Jim Groovester— Are there any good town-tells?
From what I'm told I'm the worst player to have in any mafia game ever. That's according to Solifuge.
I've never actually played Mafia before.
Hmmm...
notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.
Imp - You die, and resurrect as a 3rd party (survivor). Do you claim your new role? Why/why not?
Vanilla Town, which in this game appears to me to closest translate as witch or sexton, I see those as having been before/having overall the potential to be the weakest Town roles.
Supernatural 5 ended with the escape of Scum Webadict and a banishment/KOS declaration on him. The OP made mention that it could be an interesting backstory for a future Supernatural if one was needed. Do you think this game will prove to connect to that game in a way that includes that backstory?
Whups, meant to ask a second general question too:
Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?
It's about flavor. I dare not quote our OP even in his thread posts, because the punishment is for quoting the mod is listed as for quoting the mod, not for quoting PMs from the mod. But I have to check this idea out.
Webadict
Here's my concern, though: What if you're wrong, and we get no mod intervention to tell us whether or not we're completely off track? We'd end up with a waste of a day. I say we hold out on this train of thought until our glorious leader says something.Watch this, I know a magic trick.
aStill, do you intend to follow up on any of the answers people have given to your catch-all question? Or are you going to save us all some time and admit that you're scum already?
Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?
So... kleril: How do you intent to hunt if you don't question people, either on random stuff to try and provoke a response or on their current behavior?
Probably.Well so be it, you have seen a lot more of these than me.
I don't even remember what the last scum team was. I suppose I could figure that out rather easily but I don't care enough to find out. Was it werewolves? Yes, I believe it was werewolves because I helped write the flavor for that game.
Werewolves are sort of the default scumteam in Supernatural, so if we're running the same type of setup it's probably them.
Also, welcome back.
I never said you shouldn't question people, just not using individual questioning as a starting point. That early in, half of the players hadn't even posted, thus had no behavior to question. Do you think it's fair to separately target players arbitrarily?Fuck yes I think choosing random people is fair, why wouldn't it be?
Well I'd say that the most helpful thing is to keep notes on everything IMPORTANT that people say and to write it down so that YOU will understand it in the future. That's what I do anyway. Also, never just ask "What...?" you must always ask "What... and why?" because it forces them to elaborate.I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role. It's because this is the first time I've ever saw one, to speak bluntly. That, and considering the prospect out of game terms, it really jives with how I view the Supernatural world Meph creates--who doesn't want to be an Exorcist. It's like Buffy all over again! (Yeah yeah monster hunter but you get my point :I) x3
I'll ask a general question:
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?I...post. And I...play. I am an amorphous creature. I change my playstyle every game. I love playing with psychology and philosophy, and generally play for fun rather than egoistical pleasure.
Tiruin: Good to see you! Assuming you were scum would you prefer offensive night powers to rush the town down or defensive powers to avoid detection?Interesting prospect, good sir.
Tiruin— How do you learn the most from Day One before there's been any kind of flip?Just as much as anyone learns-via observation. The flip only acts as a dead-end of sorts, to debase or debunk any relative or leading conclusions or notions. If deviations are to follow from said flip, then that is generally a note of suspicion. However I learn usually via observation, and primarily by questioning.
@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?I...post. And I...play. I am an amorphous creature. I change my playstyle every game. I love playing with psychology and philosophy, and generally play for fun rather than egoistical pleasure.
...So yeah. My playstyle is to post. To be pertinent in the post. And to have fun.
How would this generalistic point of view help you?
Here's my concern, though: What if you're wrong, and we get no mod intervention to tell us whether or not we're completely off track? We'd end up with a waste of a day. I say we hold out on this train of thought until our glorious leader says something.
Supernatural games are not bastard mafias. The only players playing are the ones in the players list.
One day you'll look back and feel very silly about this.
Imp - You die, and resurrect as a 3rd party (survivor). Do you claim your new role? Why/why not?
As best as I can recall, resurrection into 3rd party survivor isn't possible in the Supernatural games.
Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.
-snip-You are right, I just seemed to notice everyone was posting questions to all, while notquitethere posted specific questions to specific people. I thought that seemed kind of suspicious, and I just wanted to get a small test run at applying pressure. However, I'm canceling my vote for now until more evidence comes along.
General questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts.and his preference of not answering them?
We got to see the roleflip and PM of a monster hunter in S5, though we never got to see him try or succeed in using his kill, true. When you say 'more than 75%' sure, what sort of criteria do you use? What is a 75% range to you?Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?
We don't really know what a Monster Hunter does but if I had a town aligned NK I would go after whomever I thought was the most scummy. If I were more than 75% sure I would use it. Hope this helps.
Good, that was the effect I was going for.Caz— Do you cave easily under pressure?Yes. You've given me palpitations.
notquitethere - Do you think that policy-lynching lurkers is ever a good strategy? Do you see this strategy as scummy or town-orientated?In actual play I've only seen policy lynching lurkers put forward by scum players. However, players not being engaged with the game is pro-scum, so town have an incentive to pressure lurkers into participating more or replacing out. As such, sometimes the right thing to do is to vote lurkers. This should never be presented as a policy though, as often there'll be better lynch candidates.
If scumtells are a little murky it is because scum tends to be pretty murky, especially when things like interactions with confirmed scum don't exist yet. Its day 1, if you want absolute and clear cut guild lines I have bad news for you, they don't actually exist. The best day 1 tells are the ones that work at the time. People make all sorts of mistakes, and then you press them on it and you see what they do.No, it may not be absolute but I think there is definitely a pretty clear Day One tell. I'll reveal it after the RVS.
Why did you feel the need to bring it up?I was just giving context to my mistake. To give a bit more context: at my best, I carefully consider the impact of what I'm about to say and rewrite my posts several times. At my worst, or most enthusiastic, I work off a vague sense of the game's position and post responses without giving adequate consideration to their wording.
Tiruin: Good to see you! Assuming you were scum would you prefer offensive night powers to rush the town down or defensive powers to avoid detection?Interesting prospect, good sir.
Depending on the prospect (and perhaps hidden roles[?] - I'm unsure if roles not in the list are given to scum but I'm putting this perspective in view) then I'd be taking offensive night powers. Those because of the idea on..well, the notion of practicality and simplicity. A defensive power can be traced and made as an alibi, but an offensive power, in its full context or generally any context, may as well be used to its benefit-confusion and harassment, or as a power to eliminate threats.
Does anyone else think that Webadict might be our unspecified, but not unannounced 12th player?Let's see what future modposts state. I didn't think this was going to be that kind of game though.
I have some trouble with simultaneous multiple followup; 2 seems to be my current comfort zone as far as time and mental dexterity goes and I've made careful forays into pressing 3 at once.Do you feel more comfortable answering questions than pressing them?
Notquitethere Would you prefer to lead, follow, or (for a time) go unnoticed? Why?Only scum and third-parties want to go unnoticed. It doesn't matter if I present myself as a night target so long as I do my damnedest to root out scum. If you just follow then you will be lead and mislynched will happen. All town have to lead their own personal, intense inquisition.
A general question for all:Does the opening flavour for the game gel with the banishment/KOS declaration etc.?
Supernatural 5 ended with the escape of Scum Webadict and a banishment/KOS declaration on him. The OP made mention that it could be an interesting backstory for a future Supernatural if one was needed. Do you think this game will prove to connect to that game in a way that includes that backstory?
Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?Does Supernatural have a survivor role? Those are usually the hardest to win by because other roles you can win if your team mates survive after your death.
notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?
notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.It's fine to be suspicious but I'd be more suspicious of the opposite. By tailoring my questions to each individual person rather than asking mass questions, the respondents can't get clues on how to answer from the responses of others. Also, I get to start up an individual dialogue with each other player. I'm not going to find scum if I ignore half the players. Does that sound reasonable?
I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?
There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?You can see my reasoning in my response to Cmega above. In starting a specific dialogue with each player, I maximise the chance of interacting with scum. If I just asked a general question to everyone, it'd be harder to differentiate between the players.
I'm glad we're on the same page on the town tell thing. I see that you answered the questions directed to you reasonably effectively but you didn't deign to answer any in turn. You going to let all these new kids question themselves?Jim Groovester— Are there any good town-tells?Being active and aggressive and pursuing a list of targets is a town tell.
Is this the game, notquitethere? Is this the game where you'll finally win?
No I don't. It was a stupid question in retrospect and has given me little, if any, useful information.I'm glad you've seen the light. I look forward to seeing some real questions in your next substantial post.
You say deviations, but deviations from what? Do you think there is value in discussing the Day One flip on Day Two?Tiruin— How do you learn the most from Day One before there's been any kind of flip?Just as much as anyone learns-via observation. The flip only acts as a dead-end of sorts, to debase or debunk any relative or leading conclusions or notions. If deviations are to follow from said flip, then that is generally a note of suspicion. However I learn usually via observation, and primarily by questioning.
What use is asking my learning style, given how learning is such a general term? Would it help you understand me more, or is there any other reason you had in mind to inquire this?Perhaps I should have phrased my question more clearly. I didn't want to know your learning style. On Day One a lot of content is posted. There are ways of shaping discussions so that in future days we can learn things from the interactions. I wanted to see your perspective on this. To put things another way: how should you act on Day One. 'Observation' and 'questions' is so vague. What are observing? What kind of questions are you asking?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?The role that let's me win without having to do anything.
ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?No not usually. If you're right it's okay.
Vampires have a history of being over somewhat over powered, so I guess that would be easy mode. Apart from that I only know one third party, and that was Toony the Devil. That looks like a somewhat tricky role now that one of them has won and people are unlikely to ever take a deal again.That was Leafsnail the Devil.
Toonyman: Welcome in late to the party! If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?Jim, he's scary.
I have classes all day and two exams next week aaahGood luck!
I'll bear your response in mind as the game proceeds. Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?No not usually. If you're right it's okay.
Ok so tip 1 then: Nobody is so stupid that they will just admit to being scum. If you want to play effectively, try actually doing something that has the potential to get results rather than these useless questions to try and appear to be helpful.Noted. What have you learned from your own questions so far?
Caz: How many players are in this game, counting yourself?Should be 11 (Or is it 12? :) )
To answer you... carefully... because you're (sort of) asking about an ongoing game that I'm still alive in, and I understand that we're not supposed to discuss those until that changes, I have not as yet made a formal personal file; I made notepad notes to make a thread, and post it for all (Town and Scum, no way to show just Town) to see. My main assumption has been that I can't count on being here for the dawn of the next D; anything I take to the grave with me is lost; it might make sense to run with plans that need a real-life day or two to complete but I'd better not make any plans of any sort that go past the current D. This game could have revivals or speaking with the dead, but that's seriously iffy in many ways - I'm leaning towards not taking plans or information past the current D because that could be their/my expiration date.
You are right, I just seemed to notice everyone was posting questions to all, while notquitethere posted specific questions to specific people. I thought that seemed kind of suspicious, and I just wanted to get a small test run at applying pressure. However, I'm canceling my vote for now until more evidence comes along.
Do you really think this is a good strategy? Or are you trying to stay under the radar by avoiding conflict?How would you characterise your playstyle?
Speak when spoken to, and don't throw out too much fluff. Didn't serve me too well last game, though.
@Caz & Notquitethere:I was thinking along similar lines. Asking questions is not a scumtell.There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.
How is this suspicious? Do you respond to questions via your scum secretary? What a weak argument.
I see a limb. I'm going out on it.It's an interesting theory, except that this is supposed to be a beginner-friendly Supernatural. I.e not a bastard mod. More likely to be a zombie (if we have a necromancer), or just a typo. If we could get a confirmation from Meph that would be good.
Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Good, that was the effect I was going for.My insurance premiums thank you. Moving along...
In actual play I've only seen policy lynching lurkers put forward by scum players. However, players not being engaged with the game is pro-scum, so town have an incentive to pressure lurkers into participating more or replacing out. As such, sometimes the right thing to do is to vote lurkers. This should never be presented as a policy though, as often there'll be better lynch candidates.
Do you disagree and if so, why?
ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?No not usually. If you're right it's okay.
klerilI never said it was a good playstyle. I'm fairly dead weight, as far as I'm concerned. I do not wish to try flying under the radar, but I really don't want a repeat of last game. Getting lynched as town ain't fun.Do you really think this is a good strategy? Or are you trying to stay under the radar by avoiding conflict?How would you characterise your playstyle?
Speak when spoken to, and don't throw out too much fluff. Didn't serve me too well last game, though.
KlerilNo scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?
Fair enough, I suppose. The possibility of posing leading questions to specific players still worries me, though.There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?You can see my reasoning in my response to Cmega above. In starting a specific dialogue with each player, I maximise the chance of interacting with scum. If I just asked a general question to everyone, it'd be harder to differentiate between the players.
I'll ask a general question:
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
General questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts. Compare the response in a school setting when the teacher asks everyone a question, compared to the teacher asking a single person a question.
I'm going to wager you don't care about the answer so I'm not going to give one. It's a win-win for both of us!
From what I'm told I'm the worst player to have in any mafia game ever. That's according to Solifuge.
What do you think?
Nerjin
[. . .]
Why do you ask a general question and what/how would it help you?
NerjinWe got to see the roleflip and PM of a monster hunter in S5, though we never got to see him try or succeed in using his kill, true. When you say 'more than 75%' sure, what sort of criteria do you use? What is a 75% range to you?Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?
We don't really know what a Monster Hunter does but if I had a town aligned NK I would go after whomever I thought was the most scummy. If I were more than 75% sure I would use it. Hope this helps.
Pressuring lurkers into being active = Very yes.The issue here is that pressure has no force if it's not backed with the possibility of lynching. Also, it's hard to know whether someone genuinely is the most suspicious player, if a whole bunch of players haven't said anything. For the first day of the day, I'm pleased everyone has now posted, let's hope that keeps up.
Actually lynching lurkers = Usually there's a better candidate, and if you can't find one, town has bigger troubles than a few sleepy villagers.
No scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.That's fair! Is there anything you're looking out for this time? I mean, in concrete terms, how do you intend to improve your scum-hunting?
Fair enough, I suppose. The possibility of posing leading questions to specific players still worries me, though.Well if you see me or anyone else asking any leading questions or throwing obvious soft-balls, speak up.
I don't know if I like your condescending tone. What exactly do you know that's given you these two scoops of self-confidence in your raisin bran?Where was I condescending? Tone can be easily mistaken in forum-text, and I didn't intend it. I've got a bit of mafia-experience under my belt. I think I have the smarts, the muscle and the heart (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122540.msg4017280#msg4017280) to win this time! As for impossible wincons. The last five games:
More specifically though, and more seriously, if your win condition isn't impossible to get this time around then you must have a non-usual role right? Something that isn't vanilla town or vanilla scum win condition yes? Because the way I see it you stating that your win-condition is actually possible when I'm sure you usually play in games where your goal is simple "Kill the other team" would imply that you have a win-con that isn't "Kill the other team" and thus 3rd party. So please, explain your statement about having a "Possible Win-con".
KlerilNo scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.That's fair! Is there anything you're looking out for this time? I mean, in concrete terms, how do you intend to improve your scum-hunting?
Do you feel more comfortable answering questions than pressing them?Not yet. Approximately equal comfort on average.
Does the opening flavour for the game gel with the banishment/KOS declaration etc.?To me the opening flavor of this game seemed null tell to that connection. or its lack.
Does Supernatural have a survivor role?Yes. S3 had Org starting as a wererat, S5 had Dariush as one as well, both with a survivor wincon and no special powers.
If you ever thought up a good plan that required you to act beyond the current D, would you ignore the idea or go through with it?
@NQT:KlerilNo scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?
@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?
@Imp:
What's your next move, now that the almighty mod has clarified the 11 / 12 players issue?
Why are you asking these definites? Why are you asking my preference given that context?Given context is RVS, so expect a few random questions.
I was just giving context to my mistake. To give a bit more context: at my best, I carefully consider the impact of what I'm about to say and rewrite my posts several times. At my worst, or most enthusiastic, I work off a vague sense of the game's position and post responses without giving adequate consideration to their wording.That is a strangely worded question. Do you mean to ask what would be a tell that the day 1 lynch is going to flip town?
Day one most commonly ends in a town-player being lynched. Can you name a tell for a Day One Town Lynch?
Noted. What have you learned from your own questions so far?I learnt that talking to NQT is a rich and satisfying experience.
@Max White:Yea I would, and so would you. We all are right now. It is called 'Not giving out role information that although useful to town, is more useful to scum'
Would you ever intentionally mislead town in order to secure a town victory? Why?
@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?I'd probably choose scum as I haven't been on the scum-team yet. Sneaking seems more fun to do than searching as well.
ToonyManNo, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side. Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.Do you think that it's a viable scum strategy to remove a town player, even if it results in your own death? Why/why not?ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?No not usually. If you're right it's okay.
@ToonyMan:I'd prefer concise responses without appearing like you're hiding something. If you appear like you're hiding something or blather on about nonsense then I'd rather see you hang.
What do you think is the best way to provoke a lengthy, useful response from another player?
@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?What do you expect from this really? I think I've lost every time I was scum in Supernatural so I'd rather be town I guess.
I see that you answered the questions directed to you reasonably effectively but you didn't deign to answer any in turn. You going to let all these new kids question themselves?
Spoiler: Why I might just win this time (click to show/hide)
As for impossible wincons. The last five games:
- In Witches I had to kill all third parties before all the witches were killed, including killing ZU four times
- In Princess I had to survive a whole game where death was meted out by scum randomly
- In BM XLII I died N1 as the cop in a game fraught with participation issues
- In Toon I had to spend a night alone in a room with a boy in a game where not all the other players could be relied on to rationally play to their wincons
- In the Great Temple (though I also admit to lousy play here) I was pretty much the only player that didn't have a power in a game with dubious mechanics
No, this time I have a normal role (town, since you asked). Most of the other players in this game seem somewhat competent, I trust that the game set-up isn't completely broken, and it's at least not out of the realms of possibility that if I die tonight, I'll still win the game. You seem to be saying that scum and town wincons are impossible: what do you know that I don't?
Toonyman: Welcome in late to the party! If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?Jim, he's scary.
Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?
@Jim:
If you had to lynch all players but two (excepting yourself, of course), who would they be, and why?
At the time of asking it I did care. After a few people answered and I re-read the OP I realized I was being dumb and have since stated, in thread I believe, that the question was basically worthless.
Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?
Jim: You seem pretty annoyed by us newbs. Who do you think can be more dangerous, newb town or newb scum and are there any special ways to tell the difference.
@All - If you had to choose between [missing word(s)] scum & town, which one would you? Why?
Do you control your vote, or would you prefer that others control it? When someone tells you your argument is weak, does that mean your argument is actually weak?
Shame, vampires might be absolute unbalenced bullshit, but at least it is bullshit you can get drafted into. Vanilla mafia just boots you out of the game.
@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?
It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713558#msg4713558)he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4715280#msg4715280)his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?
This is the only thing you can think of to ask? What do you care whether Cmega3 unvotes notquitethere?
Here, I've got one for you. What do you make of this vote?
Persus13.
Persus13:I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game. During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it. There was no kill N1. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
I never said it was a good playstyle. I'm fairly dead weight, as far as I'm concerned. I do not wish to try flying under the radar, but I really don't want a repeat of last game. Getting lynched as town ain't fun.Why are you so concerned about being lynched? Is that your main priority in the game so far?
The issue here is that pressure has no force if it's not backed with the possibility of lynching. Also, it's hard to know whether someone genuinely is the most suspicious player, if a whole bunch of players haven't said anything. For the first day of the day, I'm pleased everyone has now posted, let's hope that keeps up.Yeah, hopefully we don't get any severe lurkers in this game. I get what you're saying about the pressure and how it's hard to tell if lurkers are scummy or not. General strategies are nice but we still have to base each lynch on a case-by-case basis.
You've probably been asked this already or before, but have you played much mafia before?I think someone asked me this earlier, yeah. I've played a few beginner mafias and had some fun on the mafia irc. Read through all of the previous Supernatural games on this board to get up to speed, though.
First, there are only 11 players, not 12.Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?
I learnt that talking to NQT is a rich and satisfying experience.So how does he feel to you? Does having a 'rich and satisfying experience' convince you that he is town?
@Caz - If you where scum, and saw a town player falsely say they are scum, what would you think of them? Would you consider the possibility they know something you don't know they could?
No, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side. Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.So you're saying that townies are more likely to attempt tunneling?
If I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?
Caz:
You seemed to ignore a good portion of my words to you here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4714663#msg4714663). I asked a question. It's not been answered yet, so I'm going to repeat it in the spoiler below, and ask for an explanation of why you didn't bother to answer it when you responded to my answer to you.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?I have no clue. Do what I'd normally do except scum-hunt those I know aren't scum. Other than Cmega, I'm probably the most newb player in the game (on par with Kleril)
Your wording is a confusing. You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct?No. I'd be interested in you explaining more about what's confusing about my wording, if you're willing to explain that further.
You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct? I guess I can agree with that.
For those of you who don't know what to do ... find scum, which is your primary goal.
And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.
If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.
...So be bold, and just do the best you can. You're going to play this by aggressively questioning everything you find odd or scummy. This is to get you in the habit of asking questions a lot, since that's how the game of mafia is played and won.
As for re: my new reply to Max White, there'd be no change to it. I was more curious in his answer to my question than actually receiving any help.
It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.
ImpFirst, there are only 11 players, not 12.Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?
Lets say that happens: your role started as Town, and a cult or other converter successfully changed your wincon, changed it so that you now have a diametrically opposed wincon (Maybe killing most of town; maybe being a specific Scum's guardian angel). Do you believe you'd feel any negative reaction to having your previous wincon and whatever work you'd already put into it taken from you? Do you believe you'd have trouble concealing your change in goals as you tried to achieve your new wincon?I'd be very happy with that, scum is fun. As for concealing a change in goals, that really depends on what was going on the day before. Sometimes the new information might make things a little awkward, but in general I think it would be fine.
So how does he feel to you? Does having a 'rich and satisfying experience' convince you that he is town?Not particularly. Why, you worried?
Persus13Well, no one seems scummy enough to warrant a lynch vote at the moment, and the reason I voted him was to have him answer a dumb question I asked. He answered my question satisfactorily and I hadn't unvoted him yet and getting home from school and seeing the vote tally made me sure to unvote him. SO my vote had served its purpose and I was unvoting while trying to think about who else could i question.
I just noticed that you dropped your pressure vote on NQT right after he got a third vote on him. Why do you think a non-vote was worth more than a pressure vote at that point?
And who else have you questioned?I've question a few players. This is my first time doing RVS, and so I'm not sure what questions are good to ask. My questions have mainly been aiming at getting advice from experienced players, then judging how true it seems to be. As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.
Not counting that query thrown at Jim in regards to why he was annoyed at all the inexperience, considering you never followed it up or anything.
Hey, Imp, I'm failing to see how this question helps you. It seems like a pretty specific scenario.Persus13:I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game. During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it. There was no kill N1. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
Persus13:From my understanding, you random vote someone and ask them a question in the opening of D1. This is a form of pressure vote to get them to answer the question and is usually taken off if the person satisfactorily answered the question. It's intended to mean that "I think this guy is scum and want to lynch him," but mean "Hey you! Answer my question! And here is some red color to ensure you answer it and notice it!"
Discuss your theory on the difference between 'pressure votes' and 'lynch votes'? Some of the stuff I'm wondering about, what's is that difference between them, what tells you when someone's vote is for pressure or when its for lynch? When and how does one become the other, and does that order reverse sometimes too?
On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged? Feeling successful? Feeling useful? Feeling clever?
Jim:
In general, how careful would you say you are to make sure that you are being accurate, particularly before you close off a route of inquiry or a line of thought? Does that level of care differ when it is your inquiry or line of thought, or another person's? Does your level of care change when the other person's inquiry or line of thought is being presented by an experienced player versus a newbie?
It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713558#msg4713558)he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4715280#msg4715280)his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.
Jim GroovesterIf I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?
As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.
Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed? I never use votes while questioning and haven't had a problem with it. I mean really, when has anybody just been ignored consistently for not using a vote? Also use red for actual voting only, not explaining your point, otherwise it is just annoying for all involved.I think I'm either getting Pers' statement or yours wrong, but he said it with quotation marks--emphasizing his point. Also there could be a way to put it in detail, say, the color maroon. (Ok I'm just pulling your leg here. :P) Joking aside, getting [really] back in game later.
Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?
None the less, if I was running a D&D game with players, I'd feel very confident that I'd dropped a 'reasonable to catch series of clues' even for newbie players - presuming the newbies did what I asked (and what several of them said they were doing).Haven't done a full read yet but this caught my eye (primarily because of the 15 posts per page format and your post was at the bottom. . .).
...I do hope that my posts aren't the main cause of gastrointestinal anomalies, because I really don't see how one of my first posts gets your gut in a tussle. What did you see wrong there? Is my shape coming off wrong or unconventional to you?@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?I...post. And I...play. I am an amorphous creature. I change my playstyle every game. I love playing with psychology and philosophy, and generally play for fun rather than egoistical pleasure.
...So yeah. My playstyle is to post. To be pertinent in the post. And to have fun.
How would this generalistic point of view help you?
It doesn't help immensely, but it does shape a picture of you. Some aspects of your post set off my gut in certain ways, but nothing more.
I was hoping your response would glean more about what to expect from you, but I guess it set the stage well enough.
Tiruin> Deviations - something amiss from the train of thought on the moment. The situation is vague or too general to put in exacts, so I tagged it with the most specific term I had at mind, a deviation of, or based on the flip and any preceding thoughts, and to compare pre and post-flip notes of each and every person.You say deviations, but deviations from what? Do you think there is value in discussing the Day One flip on Day Two?Tiruin— How do you learn the most from Day One before there's been any kind of flip?Just as much as anyone learns-via observation. The flip only acts as a dead-end of sorts, to debase or debunk any relative or leading conclusions or notions. If deviations are to follow from said flip, then that is generally a note of suspicion. However I learn usually via observation, and primarily by questioning.What use is asking my learning style, given how learning is such a general term? Would it help you understand me more, or is there any other reason you had in mind to inquire this?Perhaps I should have phrased my question more clearly. I didn't want to know your learning style. On Day One a lot of content is posted. There are ways of shaping discussions so that in future days we can learn things from the interactions. I wanted to see your perspective on this. To put things another way: how should you act on Day One. 'Observation' and 'questions' is so vague. What are observing? What kind of questions are you asking?
Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?Tiruin lowers the front of her hat in a way that it points towards you.
TiruinBut..but the new discussion left itself on a declarative sentence! D:Why are you asking these definites? Why are you asking my preference given that context?Given context is RVS, so expect a few random questions.
As for why that question in particular, apart from the fact that it is vague enough in terms of what would be seen as the 'correct' answer to make somebody think they might be making a mistake and get a little defensive, it could provide a little future insight... Maybe. People get paranoid and think more about what could end them rather than what they would end others with, so I guess if you wanted to tag answers then scum would be more worried about their own defense, and town would be more worried about the scum offense... But that hardly qualifies you as confirmed town, and you shouldn't really tag answers like that.
The question served its purpose in providing the potential for new discussion, that is why I'm asking your preferences in that context.
Ok, general query. Powers change by resurrections and stuff like that? Why would you get summarily lynched on being 'found out'? That's a whole slew of things to be if you're found-track/watch/inspect/bus(?)...Jim GroovesterIf I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?
Play a normal day game, but don't use any actions, otherwise you might get found out and summarily lynched.
Being passive is about the only viable strategy for resurrected anti-town third party.
But..but the new discussion left itself on a declarative sentence! D:You right, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I used the word 'you' figuratively, as in 'you shouldn't touch a hot stove', rather than referring to you personally. I'm not saying you were trying to make one answer scum and the other town, I'm just saying that binary thinking is bad in general.
Also, I feel like we're...misinterpreting(?) each other? I can't see how I'm tagging something (wherein tagging = exact labeling) other than giving my point there. Or..are you discussing how my actions would relate to being town and how it would stick out to the general public?
Most of that statement is subjective. Paranoia exists in a state wherein it is offset by a trigger--where the right combination of words in general would strike at them, usually in aggression. The mysterious-detective type comes to mind when I think in literature.
Buuut, point taken. Discussion, yes.
...Why did you put in the notion of qualifying as town or not?
I plan on improving by taking a more offensive stance, and not just sitting back while things happen around me. Last game nearly all of my replies were defensively replying to accusatory posts, and that didn't help much. Speaking up when I notice things, and when they don't sit right with my gut.There's this idea in chess (and other games) called momentum, if you're always reacting to the other player's move they've got momentum. You need to seize momentum by proactively asking questions and querying other player's behaviour. Has anything struck you as odd so far?
*realizes pressure vote is still on NQT*That's very nice of you but you could also answer the outstanding question:
Unvote on NQT.
notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?
That is a strangely worded question. Do you mean to ask what would be a tell that the day 1 lynch is going to flip town?That's what I meant, yes. Your answer then?
Anyway, so now we have context to your mistake. You did it because it is the early game and you're not good at early game, and by 'you' you apparently meant everybody, and for some reason you felt incline to clarify that you meant everybody and then go on to tell me how you personally do in the early game. So what am I expected to draw from this context? What difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?
@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?The point in asking questions at the beginning of the game is to set traps and to learn perspectives. What do you hope to gain from this? Let's say I'd prefer to be scum because then I'd get to have a fun secret chat and I've never got to do this on this forum before (in the dozen or so mafia games I've played here, I've never had a scumchat). Well, that tells you something of my overall preferences but I doubt it tells you anything of my actual alignment. Or do you disagree?
Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?
I'm just getting started.I'll be watching to see to what extent you get started. Do you think the influx of newplayers will hamper town's ability to scumhunt?
How is cop an impossible wincon? Or survivor? Just because you lost those games doesn't mean that they were unwinnable.Town cop isn't an unwinnable role, and I shouldn't have written things in a way that implies that it is. I've died twice on N1 as town cop in two BM's and then had the game go on to a town-loss: BM's on this subforum are heavily weighted towards scum, and obviously if I die after the first day there's very little I personally can do to help win them. Survivor probably isn't unwinnable, though I've never won as a survivor: it's just much much harder to win because most other alignments don't require living until the end, and there's very little to prevent scum from thinking you're a town-player and offing you in the night. I consider town and scum very winnable, and I was pleased to be regular town rather than a third party this game. I'll probably still lose because I'm cursed, but for now I'm optimistic.
It makes me really curious to know what you consider winnable when cop and survivor aren't. Might be something nasty.
I think someone asked me this earlier, yeah. I've played a few beginner mafias and had some fun on the mafia irc. Read through all of the previous Supernatural games on this board to get up to speed, though.So this isn't your first spin round the merry-go-round, good. Scum can win by getting by without too much scrutiny: who hasn't received enough pressure yet?
> Deviations - something amiss from the train of thought on the moment. The situation is vague or too general to put in exacts, so I tagged it with the most specific term I had at mind, a deviation of, or based on the flip and any preceding thoughts, and to compare pre and post-flip notes of each and every person.Okay, that makes sense.
> "Ouch. So you really don't want to know me? :("!" I'm more than happy to know you. Merely, that wasn't the purpose of my question at the time.
"Ok, that came off too mellow. I'm wearing an Inquisitorial hat for a reason! :I"
The point of observation is reasoning in itself. You observe. Right now, I stare at a bunch of figures and shapes termed letters at a screen and analyze upon a given basepoint--this is what is observing, in my idea. On the basis, I try to find how relevant or pertinent a person's mode of inquiry goes--that is the analysis. People are shooting off many questions around and so forth, yet I feel like some questions are being subtle in context. The queries I ask are what pertain to my suspicions. No more, no less.Okay, that's all very good as far as it goes. What I wanted to know is what specifically you were looking for. Is it deviations from some unstated norm?
Okay, that's all very good as far as it goes. What I wanted to know is what specifically you were looking for. Is it deviations from some unstated norm?...I ran out of synonyms to "what seems weird given how x is and what y claims or that z stated-..." so I went with the best term in my head. It's not a definite term so...yeah, I went with the nearest thing I found that matched what I thought.
So when somebody rolls a Priest in this game, they get to resurrect somebody of their choice, but the catch is that they have a hidden piety level that affects how the player comes back. This is to prevent people from becoming confirmed townies (which are lame)....But that's just like a new game of sorts. People don't know your role and can only infer such from later actions - you may be town, scum or some silly variant of death and destruction and chaos and argh. The difference is that everyone else probably has a heads-up on you via information while you lounged in the room of the dead and traversed the rotating door of mortality, meaning: you got extra notes from Meph.
If they're saintly, then the person they resurrect comes back as their original alignment. If they're not saintly, then they come back as something nasty, like a Devil or a Demon. Or a Lone Vampire. Or if there's a scum Priest, the person who gets resurrected can come back as a member of the scum team. (If you're not familiar with these roles I suggest browsing the end of game role list in previous Supernaturals.)
Resurrection is not hidden, and since the person being resurrected can come back as a myriad of potentially hostile alignments, it pays off for everybody else to be extremely watchful about the player.
E.G., if somebody gets resurrected on N2, and then there's an extra kill on N3 (keeping in mind that Meph does not disguise nightkill sources in day opening flavor) then it's obvious that the resurrected player came back as a Demon.
So what is a freshly resurrected player to do if he comes back as anything besides town? It depends on what he comes back as, but generally, do nothing, since any variation from your established role (which flipped on your first death, mind you) means you're some kind of nasty scum.
Toonyman:Ask them why that is or maybe vote them over it even.
If you asked someone a question and they didn't answer it, what would your next step be?
What if they answered a different, though similar question, but not what you asked, and their answer didn't include the information that prompted you to ask?By "information that I asked" do you mean the answer I was looking for? I would try to avoid single-minding yourself like that, but if their answer seemed unclear then yeah, I'm going to ask for clarity.
On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged? Feeling successful? Feeling useful? Feeling clever?Okay uh, 8/10 for all of those. I've never been particularly good at being a genius.
ToonyManIt's less of a sacrifice to do so, but I don't think it's a very good idea unless you know what you're doing.No, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side. Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.So you're saying that townies are more likely to attempt tunneling?
ToonyUnfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend. Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.
ToonyManIt's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
ToonyThey should know better.Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?
@Tiruin:You mean voting Webadict, seemingly missing the context in which she voted Webadict for (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713752#msg4713752), but in general who isn't actually playing?ToonyManIt's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
...There's a mistake in choosing a preferred faction including reasoning on it? Preferably expound, good sir.CmegaI disagree. One careless mistake in your answer to that question can help a lot later on.@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?The point in asking questions at the beginning of the game is to set traps and to learn perspectives. What do you hope to gain from this? Let's say I'd prefer to be scum because then I'd get to have a fun secret chat and I've never got to do this on this forum before (in the dozen or so mafia games I've played here, I've never had a scumchat). Well, that tells you something of my overall preferences but I doubt it tells you anything of my actual alignment. Or do you disagree?
| 1. | What do you hope to gain from this [question that you asked]? |
Tiruin: What's your take on Jim's opinion of general questions,...Jim's like that :vGeneral questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts.and his preference of not answering them?
For that matter, you answered most of the general questions, but not either of mine. Why not?
@Tiruin - You said you learn primarily by observation. What kind of things do you look out for? As town? As scum?I look out for both things > Check NQT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4719470#msg4719470)'s note here.
Your answer then?Oh hey Max, would kindly tell me what sort of behavior would make you reconsider a vote, so that hopefully if it looks like I'm facing a lynch I can start acting exactly as prescribed.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.Your going me invite to vote for you? If you are town chances are you are the only confirmed town you know of, and you are going to invite me to vote for somebody that should be confirmed town to you. You are asking me to vote for the only person you know is town... Unless you aren't actually town and that sort of passive aggressive bullshit is not going to fly.
No I mean EVERYBODY is bad!
No I mean I'm ESPECIALLY bad!Making up excuse after excuse, all the while I have been asking you why you felt the need to excuse yourself.
Town cop isn't an unwinnable role, and I shouldn't have written things in a way that implies that it is. I've died twice on N1 as town cop in two BM's and then had the game go on to a town-loss: BM's on this subforum are heavily weighted towards scum, and obviously if I die after the first day there's very little I personally can do to help win them. Survivor probably isn't unwinnable, though I've never won as a survivor: it's just much much harder to win because most other alignments don't require living until the end, and there's very little to prevent scum from thinking you're a town-player and offing you in the night. I consider town and scum very winnable, and I was pleased to be regular town rather than a third party this game. I'll probably still lose because I'm cursed, but for now I'm optimistic.I wish I had a bike that could peddle backwards.
I note that you seem to be voting or FoS'ing people who miss your questions? Something wrong with it?At this stage of the game, it's not unreasonable use of pressure, and sure, I get what your saying now.
[...]
Fixed that enough?
Oh hey Max, would kindly tell me what sort of behavior would make you reconsider a vote, so that hopefully if it looks like I'm facing a lynch I can start acting exactly as prescribed.I think you seriously misunderstand my reason for questioning. Day One almost always ends in a mislynch, and usually there are pretty obvious signs on retrospect. I just wondered if you knew what you should be looking out for. I'm not convinced you do, but I admire your high level of suspicion.
Really? I mean truly? No, there is your answer. If you want to know what you have to do to turn around and make yourself look less scummy, figure it out.
Your going me invite to vote for you? If you are town chances are you are the only confirmed town you know of, and you are going to invite me to vote for somebody that should be confirmed town to you. You are asking me to vote for the only person you know is town... Unless you aren't actually town and that sort of passive aggressive bullshit is not going to fly.I am confirmed town to me. Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town. I'm happy to offer rebuttals to your arguments against me. Talk about passive-aggressive: you were implying I was scum before without voting.
You are scum Notquitethere and I'll see you lynched.
Let me make myself clear. Your tell wasn't the bit where you jumped in on some random question. It was the bit where you got defensive about it, insisting that the mistake happened simply because it was a phase of the game you weren't very good at. When pressed about it, you just flopped around a bit and got even more defensive.As far as I can see, I was offering up an apology for making a mistake and giving a bit of context to why I made that mistake and also expanding on my related view that it is difficult to make informed choices on Day 1. I'm sorry, but what part of that screams 'scum' to you?
You asked me to clarify myself and I did.QuoteNo I mean EVERYBODY is bad!QuoteNo I mean I'm ESPECIALLY bad!Making up excuse after excuse, all the while I have been asking you why you felt the need to excuse yourself.
I get it, your early game etiquette could use some work, I don't care about that. I care about the fact that you seem to think that insisting you are oh sooo terrible at day 1 is justification for being damn scummy. It isn't.I don't even think I'm terrible at Day 1, you're exaggerating what I said. I don't even think I've been particularly scummy. You seem to be fabricating a case out of nowhere.
I wish I had a bike that could peddle backwards.I'm not a cop and this isn't a BM. I am town and I'm still quite optimistic about a win. I can see everything you said, but I don't see how any of it amounts to me being scum.
Seriously, you were NKed twice as town on the first night, and suddenly you are feeling optimistic?
No, after that wincon comment, you don't look like town buddy.
I think you seriously misunderstand my reason for questioning. Day One almost always ends in a mislynch, and usually there are pretty obvious signs on retrospect. I just wondered if you knew what you should be looking out for. I'm not convinced you do, but I admire your high level of suspicion.Ok, you don't think I know what I'm looking for, awesome! You can have your opinions. But how does an assessment of my competence in hunting affect your read on weather I'm scum or not? Why waste your time?
Talk about passive-aggressive: you were implying I was scum before without voting.In my opinion anybody I talk to could be scum, but I vote when I'm happy to lynch. If you are unhappy about feeling a little pressure before you are voted for, I have some bad news for you.
As far as I can see, I was offering up an apology for making a mistake and giving a bit of context to why I made that mistake and also expanding on my related view that it is difficult to make informed choices on Day 1. I'm sorry, but what part of that screams 'scum' to you?The bit where you somehow think the lack of ability to make a fully informed lynch choice on day 1 somehow relates to messing with peoples questions. Your logic doesn't check out, it is just a lame excuse you make up when you thought somebody had called you out.
You asked me to clarify myself and I did.No I haven't been asking you to clarify, I have been asking you why mention that you are bad at all. To provide context? Ok, now we have context. You make scummy mistakes because you aren't the best at this stage. So what? What does it matter if you are the greatest day 1 player ever or the worst? What does this context provide?
I'm not a copNow this is also scummy. You don't talk about your role day 1! Assuming you weren't scum then even saying what you are not gives the mafia information to make their kills. Actually claiming that you aren't a cop looks like scum willing to say anything to try and save their neck. Now if by some twist of fate you aren't scum, just really bad, then the mafia knows they have a better shot killing somebody else. But as scum you would care more about what ever will get my vote away from yourself than concealing that sort of information.
Why would you not hunt your scum-buddies? Do you really think that would be advantageous to your team?Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?I have no clue. Do what I'd normally do except scum-hunt those I know aren't scum. Other than Cmega, I'm probably the most newb player in the game (on par with Kleril)
Caz:Not sure how else to explain. Your wording is confusing. If you could explain it in simple terms I'd be happy to re-iterate my answer to the question you intended.Your wording is a confusing. You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct?No. I'd be interested in you explaining more about what's confusing about my wording, if you're willing to explain that further.
Okay, they're separate issues. How is this answering the question? If helping newbies is a separate issue from scumhunting, are you in favour of helping newbies or not?You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct? I guess I can agree with that.
No, I am not. Helping newbies (or even experienced players) be they Scum or Town is a completely separate issue from FINDING SCUM. Both can be done AT THE SAME TIME.
Does this help you understand why I was interested in your answer to Max White? I have no contention with your curiosity about his answer - but do you -still- wish to stand by your declaration of garbage in answer to his question?Yeah, I'm not going to go back on my answers just because you find some imaginary fault in them.
All you've proven is your ability to follow through on obscure theories that offer nothing to help in the game at hand. Defending your actions as "complexity of thought" as if you've done something to aid town... a simple question to the mod would have sufficed in lieu of the discussion you opened the theory, which did nothing but waste our time.Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?I say that your interpretation of the 'two and only two' possible explanations for my behavior and psychology is too narrow and does not include a correct interpretation.
I say that I have shown something of the range of Scumhunting I am willing to do, some of the complexity of thought that I'm willing and able to use in that Scumhunting, some of my attitude about taking risks with my Scumhunting, and some of my willingness to let a 'proved closed' trail go when it has been proved closed.
What do you say, about the BS you've been spewing?
Not particularly. Why, you worried?Not in the slightest. I will agree with you on that - town has less reason to be cautious, and usually only people looking for an easy lynch will back out of their opinions so easily. If they're not convinced in the first place, why did they say it, and if they were convinced, why did they back out?
He seems to think scum tells aren't scum tells if you can make up a reason for them and say sorry, and frankly that is bullshit.
Voting someone in order to get them to do something is pressure voting. Voting someone because you think/know their scum and want them to hang is lynch voting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are different.Pressure isn't pressure without the threat of a lynch. Why would they be worried if you're going to remove your vote after they answered your question? Did he answer so satisfactorily that you are now convinced he is town?
Play a normal day game, but don't use any actions, otherwise you might get found out and summarily lynched.Fair enough. Is there any strategy you would employ if you were under threat of being lynched? E.g falseclaiming, etc.
Being passive is about the only viable strategy for resurrected anti-town third party.
Interesting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?I was referring to how you only reacted to the questions posed to you rather than posing any questions of your own. Do you really think you'll get an accurate reading from only interacting with a small fraction of players in the game? Or are you just content to let everyone else pose questions while you sit back?
It's just a question. Why does it make you suspicious?Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?Tiruin lowers the front of her hat in a way that it points towards you.
"I am suspicious, sir."
This seems specific, and then moving to a general thought. What is your thinking behind the bolded part and why that exact proposition?
So this isn't your first spin round the merry-go-round, good. Scum can win by getting by without too much scrutiny: who hasn't received enough pressure yet?We've been doing fairly well at keeping the questions aimed at everyone in the game, I think. Jim seems to be in an undisturbed zen state, but that could be just because he's an experienced player that can run rings around us. (Ooh, compliment-buddying... Nope. Just stating the facts.)
It's less of a sacrifice to do so, but I don't think it's a very good idea unless you know what you're doing.Unfortunately it's usually the least-capable that are convinced of their own competency. Such is life.
3. I don't know.Uh oh. :)
I am confirmed town to me.Of course you are.
Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town.No it isn't. That's trying to start a bandwagon. People should be voting for who they think is scum, not for who someone else thinks is scum. You're not that dense.
Jim
Have we ever had a player come back town but with a different role? There was something about a lone vampire who pimped himself out to the town in exchange for a chance to full a survivor role, but that is still technically third party. Has anybody ever still been a townie, but with a new skill set?
Do you think the influx of newplayers will hamper town's ability to scumhunt?
...But that's just like a new game of sorts. People don't know your role and can only infer such from later actions - you may be town, scum or some silly variant of death and destruction and chaos and argh. The difference is that everyone else probably has a heads-up on you via information while you lounged in the room of the dead and traversed the rotating door of mortality, meaning: you got extra notes from Meph.
1. Hope to gain a bit more knowledge on you guys.
2. I think it would generally be on their point of view of each side.
3. I don't know.
You are scum Notquitethere and I'll see you lynched.
JimPlay a normal day game, but don't use any actions, otherwise you might get found out and summarily lynched.Fair enough. Is there any strategy you would employ if you were under threat of being lynched? E.g falseclaiming, etc.
Being passive is about the only viable strategy for resurrected anti-town third party.
Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town.No it isn't. That's trying to start a bandwagon. People should be voting for who they think is scum, not for who someone else thinks is scum. You're not that dense.
Ok, you don't think I know what I'm looking for, awesome! You can have your opinions. But how does an assessment of my competence in hunting affect your read on weather I'm scum or not? Why waste your time?You really don't get it. Good play is not just about hunting scum, but making sure that other players who may be town also do their job at hunting scum. I don't expect you to believe me, but I don't actually know the scum team, what with not actually being scum.
Are you hunting, or just doing other busy work to try and pass the time because you already know your scum team?
The bit where you somehow think the lack of ability to make a fully informed lynch choice on day 1 somehow relates to messing with peoples questions. Your logic doesn't check out, it is just a lame excuse you make up when you thought somebody had called you out.If you say Max. From my perspective, I was just expanding on the theme at the time.
No I haven't been asking you to clarify, I have been asking you why mention that you are bad at all. To provide context? Ok, now we have context. You make scummy mistakes because you aren't the best at this stage. So what? What does it matter if you are the greatest day 1 player ever or the worst? What does this context provide?Okay, now I'd like you to think for a moment what a town player would do when questioned on a point. Do they just roll over? Defensiveness is not a scumtell. That's exactly the same argument the scum team tried to use to get me lynched Day 1 in WC3.
Nothing really. It is just a shield you thought you had to raise when I called you out on a mistake. But it was raising that shield that was your give away. You got defensive, and you kept being defensive, and if anything got more defensive, and less consistent.
I can talk about my role any day I please. There's no Mafia Commandments that I have to follow. Hell, the games I've survived longest in are ones where I've claimed early. This as scum stuff is just baseless WIFOM and you know it.I'm not a copNow this is also scummy. You don't talk about your role day 1! Assuming you weren't scum then even saying what you are not gives the mafia information to make their kills. Actually claiming that you aren't a cop looks like scum willing to say anything to try and save their neck. Now if by some twist of fate you aren't scum, just really bad, then the mafia knows they have a better shot killing somebody else. But as scum you would care more about what ever will get my vote away from yourself than concealing that sort of information.
You have said yourself that townies often get lynched day 1, between you and I if it has to come to that, I would feel better about a not-cop than somebody else.
Do we still have that mafia forum bot? A list of posts posted by each player might do well to see who is trying to keep out of the way, though there hasn't been much lurking so far.Regularly checking the lurker tracker is pretty good for that. I'd noticed that Nerjin in particular has been a bit absent.
I agree entirely: you misunderstood what I wrote, but I could have phrased it better (I also misspelt "you're"). To rephrase: asking a person to vote for the target that that person finds suspicious is pro-town. The vote is the weapon of town and if we don't use it then we cannot win.Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town.No it isn't. That's trying to start a bandwagon. People should be voting for who they think is scum, not for who someone else thinks is scum. You're not that dense.
Okay, now I'd like you to think for a moment what a town player would do when questioned on a point. Do they just roll over? Defensiveness is not a scumtell. That's exactly the same argument the scum team tried to use to get me lynched Day 1 in WC3.Were you questioned on a theme?
I can talk about my role any day I please. There's no Mafia Commandments that I have to follow. Hell, the games I've survived longest in are ones where I've claimed early. This as scum stuff is just baseless WIFOM and you know it.And how did those games go for you? Did you win?
I'm not a copNow this is also scummy. You don't talk about your role day 1! Assuming you weren't scum then even saying what you are not gives the mafia information to make their kills. Actually claiming that you aren't a cop looks like scum willing to say anything to try and save their neck. Now if by some twist of fate you aren't scum, just really bad, then the mafia knows they have a better shot killing somebody else. But as scum you would care more about what ever will get my vote away from yourself than concealing that sort of information.
You have said yourself that townies often get lynched day 1, between you and I if it has to come to that, I would feel better about a not-cop than somebody else.
Quote from: NQTI can talk about my role any day I please. There's no Mafia Commandments that I have to follow. Hell, the games I've survived longest in are ones where I've claimed early. This as scum stuff is just baseless WIFOM and you know it.And how did those games go for you? Did you win?
Listen, if the scum know you aren't a cop then yes you won't get killed, but somebody useful will in your place. The life of a cop is worth more than yours, but you seem to only care about what will leave you surviving the longest with no regard for the town. Because you don't care about the town, do you? You just want to survive the longest, like all scum.
I agree entirely: you misunderstood what I wrote, but I could have phrased it better (I also misspelt "you're"). To rephrase: asking a person to vote for the target that that person finds suspicious is pro-town. The vote is the weapon of town and if we don't use it then we cannot win.
> ...Did you read my question right or are you just skimming over what I did? I posed my own questions there, and continued along that line--now, at this time, there were quite many other people posting posting posting questions questions questions. It isn't in the sheer quantity that makes it 'scumhunting', but in its essence. I sighed to myself and re-checked checked back to see if what I asked was asked before-so I did ask seeing as they were not asked before. Said queries which you seem to be apparently discarding without answering in lieu of the thought train despite missing the query which attempts to make sense of said train.Interesting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?I was referring to how you only reacted to the questions posed to you rather than posing any questions of your own. Do you really think you'll get an accurate reading from only interacting with a small fraction of players in the game? Or are you just content to let everyone else pose questions while you sit back?It's just a question. Why does it make you suspicious?Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?Tiruin lowers the front of her hat in a way that it points towards you.
"I am suspicious, sir."
This seems specific, and then moving to a general thought. What is your thinking behind the bolded part and why that exact proposition?
By how people play it, it sounds more like a policy rather than a theoretical problem to be pondered. You do say it is crude here, but is being crude the most efficient way? That's what I was challenging earlier on the notes of being resurrected. I get your point on playing it safe, but I don't see it when it comes to faction-based wincon following. You say you'll play a steady non-act game, and then saying its lame because...well, yeah, in a game with that, I figure 'lame' is not using everything at your disposal for survival but in the fear of using such, it hinders survival. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4719474#msg4719474) was (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4716791#msg4716791) the context of such and my query stands thus: As a third-party, you would be willing to act lone-wolf-idler given the pretense of being resurrected? Just the same as you would do if you were given a faction? Or would it be subjective given the matter of randomness and/or the situation at hand?...But that's just like a new game of sorts. People don't know your role and can only infer such from later actions - you may be town, scum or some silly variant of death and destruction and chaos and argh. The difference is that everyone else probably has a heads-up on you via information while you lounged in the room of the dead and traversed the rotating door of mortality, meaning: you got extra notes from Meph.
That's generally how people play it.
It would probably be smarter to just lynch any resurrected player, but that's a crude approach to the problem.
Max White I don't see how this is scummy and your recent attacks on NQT seem rather like McCarthyism to me.(Please explain either in the [/abbr] tag or something what those terms are...) What is McCarthyism?
I fail to see how this line of reasoning holds up. Are you trying to be an aggressive IC by chance because, otherwise, you're seeming awfully keen on knocking of NQT. Specifically though the ending seems more like "You're not doing it right! You are scum!" Every town player wants to survive. It's a simple fact that, as humans and players both, we want to be alive at the end of the day and start of the next. Town players know we shouldn't behave like that but we do anyway. I'm sorry, but you're just making things up it seems so my vote goes to you.Bolding for curious emphasis. You think Max is being an IC here? Why? Next, what do you have to say about Max' last posts because you seem to be intent on attacking him based on what he's saying to NQT--something which came off to me as but queries.
Tiruin...At this stage of the game, you seemed to me that you were just FoS'ing or voting people for attention to queries-giving off the sign that you seem more apt to query than to proceed with a line of interrogative statements and build a lead or case on that. Superficial strikes, to say bluntly.I note that you seem to be voting or FoS'ing people who miss your questions? Something wrong with it?At this stage of the game, it's not unreasonable use of pressure, and sure, I get what your saying now.
[...]
Fixed that enough?
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[...]
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[...]I wish I had a bike that could peddle backwards.I'm not a cop and this isn't a BM. I am town and I'm still quite optimistic about a win. I can see everything you said, but I don't see how any of it amounts to me being scum.
Seriously, you were NKed twice as town on the first night, and suddenly you are feeling optimistic?
No, after that wincon comment, you don't look like town buddy.
Chances are we only have so many people with inspects, most likely not many. The most people who claim to not be a cop, the more likely it is that a cop gets NKed. That is pretty basic statistics. Do you not understand how that works?Max
Max White: Would you say that you're tunneling notquitethere? When you are sure of a scumpick would you say that you stop hunting everyone else in favour of picking apart everything he says?Tunneling implies not watching others too. I'm keeping my eyes open, also still waiting to hear from Persus.
Coming from this, yeah, we (ok, most probably I, maybe, but its wording is...intriguing) don't understand how it works. Your basis is 'basic' statistics, though from this, it doesn't make much sense. What do you mean by basic statistics, anyway? What do you mean by 'if x claims not y, then y gets higher % of being NK'd' theory?Ok imagine we have ten townies. One of them is a cop, and the rest are not. When there is a night kill, there is a one in ten chance that it will kill the cop. If one of those ten chooses to claim as not-cop, it goes to one is nine. The more people claim as 'not a cop', the more likely it is an actual cop gets NKed. If it is actually a cop claiming as 'not a cop' that ruins any credibility that have later on in the game, and could be just as counter productive, if not more so. As such it is in the towns best interest to not reveal anything about their roles this early when it won't be helpful. It is, however, in scums best interest to say anything to stay alive.
Did you take in NQT's context there when you concluded? It was more of a tangent to the scenario before, as far as I see it (though..badly worded IMO, but it makes more sense on that point than him 'soft claiming non-cop').
Nerjin: Good of you to post, though the content is lacking. Is Max White's hounding of nqt really enough for him to deserve your vote? All you say is "I don't think this is scummy". In what world is softclaiming before anyone else a town action? Do you think it helps the town for people to reveal their roles before the mass claim?
NerjinMax White I don't see how this is scummy and your recent attacks on NQT seem rather like McCarthyism to me.(Please explain either in the [/abbr] tag or something what those terms are...) What is McCarthyism?
I fail to see how this line of reasoning holds up. Are you trying to be an aggressive IC by chance because, otherwise, you're seeming awfully keen on knocking of NQT. Specifically though the ending seems more like "You're not doing it right! You are scum!" Every town player wants to survive. It's a simple fact that, as humans and players both, we want to be alive at the end of the day and start of the next. Town players know we shouldn't behave like that but we do anyway. I'm sorry, but you're just making things up it seems so my vote goes to you.Bolding for curious emphasis. You think Max is being an IC here? Why? Next, what do you have to say about Max' last posts because you seem to be intent on attacking him based on what he's saying to NQT--something which came off to me as but queries.
Second bolded part...what. That seems more like a rule you're stating, but then 'it happens anyway so there' is what I got from it.
Third, what. I really can't get you--how is the 'you're making things up' make sense there? Max is giving his viewpoint. NQT is giving his viewpoint. Minor notes along side each, they both have their own behavior--why do you generalize instead of attack those specific points?
Ok imagine we have ten townies. One of them is a cop, and the rest are not. When there is a night kill, there is a one in ten chance that it will kill the cop. If one of those ten chooses to claim as not-cop, it goes to one is nine. The more people claim as 'not a cop', the more likely it is an actual cop gets NKed. If it is actually a cop claiming as 'not a cop' that ruins any credibility that have later on in the game, and could be just as counter productive, if not more so. As such it is in the towns best interest to not reveal anything about their roles this early when it won't be helpful. It is, however, in scums best interest to say anything to stay alive.
Were you questioned on a theme?
Please, quote the exact question you were expanding on.
So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?I answered your question and then expanded on the theme of day one mistakes.
I didn't question you, I pointed out you were doing the wrong thing, and from there you felt the need to expand on the point in an attempt to try and lessen the scum mistake you had made.You clearly did question me: there were question marks and everything. It's all quoted there. How is lessening a mistake a scum tell?!
And how did those games go for you? Did you win?Yep: the only game I've won (though only by mod-revisionism) is Witches where I was doggedly survival focused (and super effective at finding scum). I'm the only person I can trust to be town and play half way competently and I'm going to try to stay alive.
Listen, if the scum know you aren't a cop then yes you won't get killed, but somebody useful will in your place. The life of a cop is worth more than yours, but you seem to only care about what will leave you surviving the longest with no regard for the town. Because you don't care about the town, do you? You just want to survive the longest, like all scum.
Although come to think of it I don't see why it is relevant to NQTs sudden found confidence. In the two games he got NKed as a cop the first night the scum wouldn't have known he was the cop. He isn't more likely to be killed as a cop, so not being a cop shouldn't be relevant to thinking he is going to win. Claiming he isn't a cop was just an excuse for that comment about having some wincon that was somehow more winnable that all those other town wincons he had in the past.You obviously missed the post where I said that I didn't intend to imply that playing a town cop was unwinnable. However, being a cop makes me play more aggressively and talk on behalf of the town more and this sort of behavior gets me night killed. Maybe my confidence was misplaced, but it isn't due to me having a scum or third party role.
a. NQT asks me why I am asking Tiruin a question before I have an answer.A mistake I swiftly acknowledged and was happy to move on from.
Ok, that is fair enough, I explain why I am not going to give an answer yet, we both agree it was a mistake. This isn't really that scummy, but it is something scum might do and I point that out.
b. NQT goes on to apologize and blame the fact that he has nothing very solid in the first day. Because you know, not having had night actions or anybody lynched totally is good reason to make mistakes like that early game.You mistake my reasons, and I could have been clearer at the time: the very fact that we're worrying about ettiquette over questioning of essentially meaningless questions is a sympom of there being bugger all of real import to talk about Day One. Now do you see?
This is being a little defensive. Why does he need to give a reason for these mistakes? Is he that worried that everybody is going to jump on him for a single error that he needs a preemptive defense? I ask him why he feels the need to point this out
c. Instead of actually telling me why he thought to bring up his little defence, NQT decides everything will be better if he just clarifies that he actually meant everybody is bad at the early game. That doesn't answer my question at all. I point out that it still doesn't answer my question..
d. NQT decides that he was just providing context as to why this mistake happened. That is he is trying to convince me he was simply working off "a vague sense of the game's position and post responses without giving adequate consideration", but that still doesn't tell me why he would want to bring it up. I ask him what difference does it make if he is playing at the top of his game or not, should I read tells any differently?The 'sense of game positioning' response was an explanation of why my initial response wasn't as clear as it could have been. I wasn't telling you to read my posts any differently, I was giving an explanation which you asked for!
e. NQT goes back to his tactic of totally ignoring what I actually asked, in favor of deciding everything will be better if he just clarifies that he specifically is bad early game.Where are you even getting this from? You asked me questions, I gave you answers. It's okay not to like my answers but don't pretend I never gave them. You've convinced yourself I'm scum and are now working up further evidence for the case. It's just confirmation bias. Your case doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
At this stage of the game, you seemed to me that you were just FoS'ing or voting people for attention to queries-giving off the sign that you seem more apt to query than to proceed with a line of interrogative statements and build a lead or case on that. Superficial strikes, to say bluntly.When I made the post to which you refer it was still early in the day. Really there's very little to go on on day one. I'm making sure to follow up on various leads.
On that thing on Max, you're replying to what his context is, right--the BM, explicitly? Because that thing you say there like 'I'm not a cop' could translate to a soft claim or stuff like that--wherein the term cop could relate to a lot of things with the theme of 'inspect' here. Just to say in advance given the...dueling statements on that one part.Well quite, I was just saying I don't have a role that doesn't strictly exist in this game. I didn't intend to make any claims for or against having an inspect-role.
I disagree. One careless mistake in your answer to that question can help a lot later on.I doubt it. Look, why don't you tell me about what you think of Max's case. As far as I can see it's the only seriously lynch vote so far. So does he have a good argument or not?
*considers the question* I wasn't aware that you considered pretty specific scenario questions unhelpful.Hey, Imp, I'm failing to see how this question helps you. It seems like a pretty specific scenario.Persus13:I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game. During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it. There was no kill N1. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
There's many possible questions to ask, many possible ways to ask them. Toony's seemed to have little time to put into the game so far, I hoped to ask a question that could be quickly answered yet still give me a range of likely answers which might help me understand his thinking/see how utterly unwilling he was to distinguish answers.On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged? Feeling successful? Feeling useful? Feeling clever?On a scale from 1 to why is a numerical rating of ToonyMan's emotions relevant?
You stepped into a question from Caz to me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4714038#msg4714038), not to answer it, nor to (directly) say it shouldn't have been asked, but to volunteer related (and accidental) misinformation. Yours is a very confident tone and you are a strong speaker. I'd like to understand better what you think about how careful you (usually) are with facts and how quick you are to close off ideas before they have been investigated.Jim:...
In general, how careful would you say you are to make sure that you are being accurate, particularly before you close off a route of inquiry or a line of thought? Does that level of care differ when it is your inquiry or line of thought, or another person's? Does your level of care change when the other person's inquiry or line of thought is being presented by an experienced player versus a newbie?
What?
This is a complicated and annoyingly phrased question.
Wow.Okay, they're separate issues. How is this answering the question?You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct? I guess I can agree with that.
No, I am not. Helping newbies (or even experienced players) be they Scum or Town is a completely separate issue from FINDING SCUM. Both can be done AT THE SAME TIME.
are you in favour of helping newbies or not?I am in favor of helping, period. Newbies, experienced players, non players, the moderator. Note that what I mean by helping probably encompasses far more than what for you that word means.
It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.
Yeah, I'm not going to go back on my answers just because you find some imaginary fault in them.Going back on your answers, versus correcting a mistake (if you made one). Is that the same thing to you? You may think it's convincing to explain away my challenge against your words and the attitude they spring from as 'imaginary'. I'm not concerned with whether you're a jerk or not. I'm concerned with whether you're a Town or an anti-Town jerk. You're looking pretty anti-Town to me, but it does look like you're also trying to Scum hunt. I won't vote you for being an idiot or making mistakes; if it happens it'll be because of the probability I see in your being Scum.
Though I am glad you've given up on that train of thought, it does bother me that you want to keep going over it.Where'd you get that misperception from?
@Imp:Continue to play, completely content that I need give that closed path no more attention, other than the questions of others request that I do.
What's your next move, now that the almighty mod has clarified the 11 / 12 players issue?
ImpIf you'd prefer for me to ignore a question, do not bother to ask it. Any attempt you make to over exaggerate my answer or to attack me for having answered a question appears, as does you asking any questions that you do not want answered, to be you "just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion".First, there are only 11 players, not 12.Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?
CazYou might find a link (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/) helpful.Do we still have that mafia forum bot? A list of posts posted by each player might do well to see who is trying to keep out of the way, though there hasn't been much lurking so far.Regularly checking the lurker tracker is pretty good for that. I'd noticed that Nerjin in particular has been a bit absent.
ImpIf I remember information and perceive its correlation to the current situation, I include it in my analysis, yes. I am a gestalt thinker; a 'wholeistic' thinker (thinking in wholes, thinking of absolutely everything at as part of an entire whole). The more you know, the more you can know; period.None the less, if I was running a D&D game with players, I'd feel very confident that I'd dropped a 'reasonable to catch series of clues' even for newbie players - presuming the newbies did what I asked (and what several of them said they were doing).You use every kind of experience and method to analyze others?
Secondly, assuming you're town (vanilla), how would you judge a lynch on a person who you primarily think is town? What would you do-and if such, how will you further your goal of picking out the 'badguys'. Wait till next day, let the lynch off, or...?Judging, as in my thinking about those voting? I consider their votes on that target along with all the other factors I'm aware of.
KlerilI plan on improving by taking a more offensive stance, and not just sitting back while things happen around me. Last game nearly all of my replies were defensively replying to accusatory posts, and that didn't help much. Speaking up when I notice things, and when they don't sit right with my gut.There's this idea in chess (and other games) called momentum, if you're always reacting to the other player's move they've got momentum. You need to seize momentum by proactively asking questions and querying other player's behaviour.
How are you intending on using roleplay within this game?EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
Hmm...
I think either a monster hunter, or sexton. Both could have very interesting roleplaying implications, if used correctly.
For monster hunter, I imagine a weathered veteran with a war-axe slung over his back, and for sexton I imagine an old madman grave-digger with a crazy twinkle in his eye.
I'm out. I'm in no state to play, and I apologize.
JimNot to my recollection.
Have we ever had a player come back town but with a different role? There was something about a lone vampire who pimped himself out to the town in exchange for a chance to full a survivor role, but that is still technically third party. Has anybody ever still been a townie, but with a new skill set?
I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
@Max White:BS. I think you're too good a player to try to pull that one. What do you mean by 'working out' if you don't die within a week's time - Exactly 'what' is going to 'work out' 'how'? That's an entire two weeks of play you'd have mostly not been here for, with at least one player saying "I have no read on you what so ever".ToonyUnfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend. Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.
Mmmhrm.EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?The role that let's me win without having to do anything.
What about how 'games' like Aikido use momentum? Bullfighting, even... I enjoyed reading parts of WC3 (and in time I'll read it all). Do you see the way you create momentum in Mafia as being highly similar to how momentum works in a chess game?Aikido works as a metaphor for scum evasion: good scum will redirect their town opponents aggression and questioning back at them. Mafia is dissimilar to chess in that it is not strictly turn based. In fact, players often trap themselves into turn-like patterns of reactive answers, when they should be increasing their momentum by asking questions.
Nerjin:
You're one of the players with fewer posts than most. When I look over your last (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721136#msg4721136) two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721484#msg4721484) posts, they seem to have been devoted about 25-50% to the attack of Max White through pointing out flaws in his attack on notquitethere, and about 50-75% about defending notquitethere or yourself. Do you agree with my assessment, or can you present what you see in your posts instead?
Given your relatively low number of posts so far this game, can you explain how devoting 1/3 of them to this purpose serves the achievement of your wincon?
[hr] thing I said before? :3 Or just space out them paragraphs thanks?Max white, could you please calm down a bit?I'd implore you to address quite much everything directed to you as of late, because its pretty...curious how you've been acting.
You are acting rather weird.
Tiruin:Ah, the crucial parts. I love you Imp for these notes.ImpIf I remember information and perceive its correlation to the current situation, I include it in my analysis, yes. I am a gestalt thinker; a 'wholeistic' thinker (thinking in wholes, thinking of absolutely everything at as part of an entire whole). The more you know, the more you can know; period.None the less, if I was running a D&D game with players, I'd feel very confident that I'd dropped a 'reasonable to catch series of clues' even for newbie players - presuming the newbies did what I asked (and what several of them said they were doing).You use every kind of experience and method to analyze others?Secondly, assuming you're town (vanilla), how would you judge a lynch on a person who you primarily think is town? What would you do-and if such, how will you further your goal of picking out the 'badguys'. Wait till next day, let the lynch off, or...?Judging, as in my thinking about those voting? I consider their votes on that target along with all the other factors I'm aware of.
What would I do about it? Super situational dependent. Some of my more likely reactions: Openly compare that town-like target's scumminess to the scumminess of those I believe more likely to be scum; invite others to help convince me that the town-like target was indeed the better pick and why; understand their logic and agree with the information presented; understand their logic and disagree with the information presented, then present my new/continued concerns and explain why I was not convinced. Consider reactions, inter-reactions, and outcome(s).
With the way you use voting, what difference is there between a pressure vote and a lynch vote?
Tiruin has questioned everyone except Persus. Why the omission?I believe you believe I believe I track people by your manner? No, I don't.
Max has the only serious case in the game and yet he has yet to meaningfully question Cmega, Toony, Imp or Nerjin. What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?"Only." "Serious."
Imp...I love you people and your metaphors xD (Aikido isn't..well, the concepts in Aikido seem relevant but...wow, that's astounding to use it here)What about how 'games' like Aikido use momentum? Bullfighting, even... I enjoyed reading parts of WC3 (and in time I'll read it all). Do you see the way you create momentum in Mafia as being highly similar to how momentum works in a chess game?Aikido works as a metaphor for scum evasion: good scum will redirect their town opponents aggression and questioning back at them. Mafia is dissimilar to chess in that it is not strictly turn based. In fact, players often trap themselves into turn-like patterns of reactive answers, when they should be increasing their momentum by asking questions.
But look, this is all very nice and amicable but it's not scum-hunting. You never followed up on my answer to your accusation regarding my poor knowledge of Kleril's prior experience. You've since switched votes, but you never acknowledged my response. This makes me think you didn't really care.
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
...Whip town/himself? Err, what?Nerjin:
You're one of the players with fewer posts than most. When I look over your last (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721136#msg4721136) two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721484#msg4721484) posts, they seem to have been devoted about 25-50% to the attack of Max White through pointing out flaws in his attack on notquitethere, and about 50-75% about defending notquitethere or yourself. Do you agree with my assessment, or can you present what you see in your posts instead?
Given your relatively low number of posts so far this game, can you explain how devoting 1/3 of them to this purpose serves the achievement of your wincon?
Do I agree with your assessment? Yes. I do seem to have devoted my posts to doing just those things. How does devoting 1/3 of them to this purpose help me? Simple, that's what I think at the time I post. I suppose I could artificially inflate my post count giving detailed analysis of EVERYTHING everyone says as they say it but that would just be throwing a bunch of chaff out there that'd obscure my actual points. When I have something to say I'll say it.
Let me put it this way: Max's attacks on NQT could have happened to anyone and I would feel that he was simply trying to whip town, or perhaps just himself, into a fever pitch against the player with very little evidence. I'll admit I was taken in by it for a few minutes until I thought about it. NQT is playing dumb not scummy while Max is playing WAY too hard with WAY too little to justify it. That's my view in a nut-shell. If that makes sense.
I believe you believe I believe I track people by your manner? No, I don't.Rest assured, I'm certain that you do not take any kind of systematic notes. I found it an interesting omission: often scum will ignore one another or only throw one another softball questions.
Back to the point: It seems you only signify that one out of the 10+ people here have something tangible as of that post. Why? Do you not think anyone else has things to seriously say?My claim is that Max's vote is the most serious in the game, and by association, Nerjin's vote on Max is also serious. I may be mistaken, but it appears to me that everyone else's votes are just pressure votes, prodding people to be more active or explain some small matter.QuoteMax has the only serious case in the game and yet he has yet to meaningfully question Cmega, Toony, Imp or Nerjin. What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?"Only." "Serious."
I wonder what your line of thinking is there. Is it the notion of question-patterns which relate to alignment, perhaps? Or are you matching people up for reference later on? Explain, either way.My analysis of who has asked whom questions is a good indicator of which players appear to be trying to scumhunt and which players are not. Of particular interest to me are players that do not follow up their initial questions and players that only answer but do offer anything back.
Why are you asking Imp on the matter on 'who is right' NQT? It's like you've both already concluded there on each other and are looking to those around for their conclusion. Emphasis: Conclusion.Max has an argument against me, Nerjin disputes that argument. They both can't be right and both of them have backed up their positions with lynch-votes. The game has left the RVS and there is now substance to discuss. Can you understand why I'd want players to discuss matters of substance in the game? Is Max or Nerjin correct?
Tiruin>_> Ouch.I believe you believe I believe I track people by your manner? No, I don't.Rest assured, I'm certain that you do not take any kind of systematic notes.[...]
I found it an interesting omission: often scum will ignore one another or only throw one another softball questions.Agreeable. However, isn't this a bit too narrow sighted given your ideas earlier? People are people and are..too broad to consider the softballing. What is your take on the mindset in that scenario, dear sir? I think we're thinking along the same line here, but...
My claim is that Max's vote is the most serious in the game, and by association, Nerjin's vote on Max is also serious. I may be mistaken, but it appears to me that everyone else's votes are just pressure votes, prodding people to be more active or explain some small matter.But Nerjin's accusing Max based on how serious his vote (and context behind it) is. I'm asking what you're seeing about it considering the same usage of words. One seems to follow the other based on...and the other seems to follow back.
Max has an argument against me, Nerjin disputes that argument. They both can't be right and both of them have backed up their positions with lynch-votes. The game has left the RVS and there is now substance to discuss. Can you understand why I'd want players to discuss matters of substance in the game? Is Max or Nerjin correct?...I do understand, but then I'm wondering why you draw attraction to that one cause as if its a whole detail. Yes, I see it as such, and yeah there is substance, but you seem to be drawing the attraction towards instead of letting it flow freely by that. Or..just that you're stating something significant has happened, which is agreeable.
I may be mistaken, but it appears to me that everyone else's votes are just pressure votes, prodding people to be more active or explain some small matter.So what are pressure votes for you and what makes them a pressure vote?
My analysis of who has asked whom questions is a good indicator of which players appear to be trying to scumhunt and which players are not. Of particular interest to me are players that do not follow up their initial questions and players that only answer but do offer anything back.@Latter: Difference from being newbies?
I'm out. I'm in no state to play, and I apologize.
NerjinLet me put it this way: Max's attacks on NQT could have happened to anyone and I would feel that he was simply trying to whip town, or perhaps just himself, into a fever pitch against the player with very little evidence. I'll admit I was taken in by it for a few minutes until I thought about it. NQT is playing dumb not scummy while Max is playing WAY too hard with WAY too little to justify it. That's my view in a nut-shell. If that makes sense....Whip town/himself? Err, what?
NQT is playing dumb?...What?
Max is playing way too hard/too little...how? He seems to be the aggressive type as far as I see.
...Or in my lacking time, I'm just missing your point. I do agree that part of his substance on NQT (mainly that cop tangent) seems rather strange, but I can't see what you're saying straight there.
Nerjin— I can understand you not wanting to inflate your post count with chaff, but is there any reason why you've only seriously engaged with less than a third of the other players? Last I heard, scum don't just hunt themselves.
QuoteI found it an interesting omission: often scum will ignore one another or only throw one another softball questions.Agreeable.
However, isn't this a bit too narrow sighted given your ideas earlier? People are people and are..too broad to consider the softballing. What is your take on the mindset in that scenario, dear sir? I think we're thinking along the same line here, but...Are you saying that scum don't send easy questions to their scum mates? It definitely happens. What do you mean people are too 'broad' to consider it?
But Nerjin's accusing Max based on how serious his vote (and context behind it) is. I'm asking what you're seeing about it considering the same usage of words. One seems to follow the other based on...and the other seems to follow back.Let's be clear here: Max has clearly stated that he will see me lynched. No one else in the entire game has made a claim like that. It's not serious because there's a lot of words, it's serious because he claims to be certain that I am scum. No one else has displayed that much certainty.
That, or when you say serious, you mean putting up a lot of words explaining words.
...I do understand, but then I'm wondering why you draw attraction to that one cause as if its a whole detail. Yes, I see it as such, and yeah there is substance, but you seem to be drawing the attraction towards instead of letting it flow freely by that. Or..just that you're stating something significant has happened, which is agreeable.I'm attracting attention to it because it's the most significant thing to have happened in the game and I'd like to know people's takes on it. Scum often don't like to make strong reads on other players and forcing players to take a stance is a way of drawing out scum.
Each and either is correct in their own mind, but I'm wondering on the stability on what they stand on to base what is correct or not.Enough wishy-washy relativism. Each may believe themselves to be correct but as they are diametrically opposed only one can be correct. So which is it?
What I'm asking is why you're asking people to take sides /already/. What is your purview on them?I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.
So what are pressure votes for you and what makes them a pressure vote?A pressure vote is just a vote to get someone to post more or to explain themselves. A lynch vote is an active declaration that someone is scum.
Sure, Newbies can be lax in asking questions. That's why it's interesting to me that Nerjin, Jim and Toony (experienced players) have been so lax in scumhunting. At the moment, though I think he is very mistaken, I think Max is more likely town than Nerjin.QuoteMy analysis of who has asked whom questions is a good indicator of which players appear to be trying to scumhunt and which players are not. Of particular interest to me are players that do not follow up their initial questions and players that only answer but do offer anything back.@Latter: Difference from being newbies?
Nerjin did you miss my earlier question:
Nerjin— I can understand you not wanting to inflate your post count with chaff, but is there any reason why you've only seriously engaged with less than a third of the other players? Last I heard, scum don't just hunt themselves.
Also, I'm pretty sure you never followed up on my detailed response here:I guess you really didn't give a damn.Spoiler: Several Pages Back! (click to show/hide)
It's hard for me to keep track of so many players. I've got a decent feeling [so to speak] about Max. Everyone else is giving off a rather neutral vibe. You'll have to be more specific on your "Seriously engaged" comment though. What do you consider seriously engaged?I mean, you haven't actually directed any questions at most of the players in the game. Of course people are going to come off as neutral if you don't actually converse with them...
I didn't see that either. You gotta understand that I'm human and can miss things man. There's no need for this kind of anger.Uh— I wasn't angry and I'm sorry I came across like that (I don't ever get genuinely incensed about Mafia). Only, not engaging with most players and not following up on questions are both pretty big scum tells. I can understand that you can miss things, but the very fact that you're not chasing up questions is a pretty clear indicator that you don't have a genuine desire to find scum (or, at best, you're being quite lazy about it). I'm waiting to hear back from Persus, who appears to have disappeared off the planet, but as things stand I'd be quite happy to see you lynched today.
Nerjin:@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?
I agree that a vote was not the only way I could have tested my theory, and indeed I tested it with words and questions as well. Given that at the time you made this post four of us had not yet used their vote in any fashion - how was my action 'wasting' my vote?
It's hard for me to keep track of so many players.
Nerjin! I'm still hoping for an answer to this.Nerjin:@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?
I agree that a vote was not the only way I could have tested my theory, and indeed I tested it with words and questions as well. Given that at the time you made this post four of us had not yet used their vote in any fashion - how was my action 'wasting' my vote?
Because you were putting it on a player who wasn't even in the game. I guess in retrospect it's not that big of a deal but voting on someone who literally CAN'T be lynched is basically abstaining.Quote from: Same PostIt's hard for me to keep track of so many players.
Is it also hard for you to follow the thread as a whole?
No. I'm following rather well but forgive me if I don't pick up on everything.
> ...Did you read my question right or are you just skimming over what I did? I posed my own questions there, and continued along that line--now, at this time, there were quite many other people posting posting posting questions questions questions. It isn't in the sheer quantity that makes it 'scumhunting', but in its essence. I sighed to myself and re-checked checked back to see if what I asked was asked before-so I did ask seeing as they were not asked before. Said queries which you seem to be apparently discarding without answering in lieu of the thought train despite missing the query which attempts to make sense of said train.Okay. I just don't see where you're going with this.
> ...So if something is just a question, it is then suspicious? Yes. In the matter of how you word it and how the other person analyzes it. Is there a problem in finding suspicion on that question?I was continuing the conversation with Jim on the theme of 3rd party resurrection, that's the reason for the questions. I want to see if Jim's claimed reactions match up with what he's actually doing - that is the nature of the game, right?
Also you totally dodged my questions there bro. I'm not happy with that. Not a good thing. Please answer them, directly.
Max White I don't see how this is scummy and your recent attacks on NQT seem rather like McCarthyism to me.
I fail to see how this line of reasoning holds up. Are you trying to be an aggressive IC by chance because, otherwise, you're seeming awfully keen on knocking of NQT. Specifically though the ending seems more like "You're not doing it right! You are scum!" Every town player wants to survive. It's a simple fact that, as humans and players both, we want to be alive at the end of the day and start of the next. Town players know we shouldn't behave like that but we do anyway. I'm sorry, but you're just making things up it seems so my vote goes to you.
I post when I have something to say. Sorry that's just how it is. If I have nothing to say I won't put up a bunch of nothing to make myself look better. I believe so. At this point anyway. I view what NQT did as stupid, no offense to him, but I don't really view it as scum actions. I just think Max is being a little too zealous about it is all so it strikes a bit like McCarthyism to me.So NQT was being 'stupid', but Max is being scummy? How do you distinguish between the two? Would you say that McCarthyism exclusively a scum trait?
To your second point I was stating: The Ideal Town Player will NEVER focus on their own survival and will instead focus ONLY on scum-hunting; none of us are Ideal Town Player. As a general rule EVERY player will fight to stay alive because they view themselves as more useful to town than any other player [especially at the beginning where you only have yourself as confirmed town.]. I hope that makes a bit more sense.Scum are still more likely to defend themselves when threatened or panic under pressure. It's precisely why focusing on defending your arguments is a scumtell. Arguing that there's no "ideal" player is just irrelevant.
Let me propose a counter-argument though. 1 = Cop. 2 = Claimed Not-Cop. 3-9 = Regular townieExcept that no smart player would claim either cop or non-cop for the reasons you described. If they did, it's safe to assume they have no idea what they're doing and hence it would be to your advantage to keep them in the game.
1 has a 1/10 chance of being NK'ed [we assume 11 is also town and is Lynched] if no one claims right? Easy enough.
2 complicates this by claiming. Or do they? You assume that scum would trust someone who says they're not cop right? If I were scum I wouldn't trust a damn thing that came out of a townies mouth. Town power roles will lie just as much as mafia in early game to my experience. As scum the SECOND someone claimed non-cop this early I'd have them marked for death. Why you ask? Simple, wouldn't the cop try to distance himself from the role?
So as Scum I'd kill 2. Simply for the fact that he's my best lead to the cop. If he's not Cop [as 2 did] then I didn't waste a NK and everything is awesome for me anyway. If he IS a Cop then I lucked out!
That assumes scum thinks like me though. I'd say that on average claiming not-cop doesn't change the odds at all that 1 will die. If there even is a 1. Maybe 1 is an A instead. I just doubt that NQT's claim thing there really means anything towards a power-roles death assuming NQT is a townie.
Tunneling implies not watching others too. I'm keeping my eyes open, also still waiting to hear from Persus.
If I see something I think is questionable, I will question it, but right now I'm happy with NQT hanging.
I'm out. I'm in no state to play, and I apologize.Bah.
What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?Are you really defending yourself against defending yourself here? I find this hilarious.
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is useless. Please explain your argument beyond "acting rather weird".
You are acting rather weird.
I am in favor of helping, period. Newbies, experienced players, non players, the moderator. Note that what I mean by helping probably encompasses far more than what for you that word means.Fine.
Going back on your answers, versus correcting a mistake (if you made one). Is that the same thing to you? You may think it's convincing to explain away my challenge against your words and the attitude they spring from as 'imaginary'. I'm not concerned with whether you're a jerk or not. I'm concerned with whether you're a Town or an anti-Town jerk. You're looking pretty anti-Town to me, but it does look like you're also trying to Scum hunt. I won't vote you for being an idiot or making mistakes; if it happens it'll be because of the probability I see in your being Scum.You offered no real argument against my words except to claim that they were "bullshit". I saw no fault in them either. When you come up with something with more substance I'll take it more seriously.
Where'd you get that misperception from?Which? You're not still peddling the "Webadict is a zombie!" theory, right? How is this a misperception?
If you'd prefer for me to ignore a question, do not bother to ask it. Any attempt you make to over exaggerate my answer or to attack me for having answered a question appears, as does you asking any questions that you do not want answered, to be you "just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion".Why are you making assumptions of whether I want answers to the questions I ask or not? Of course I want answers. It looks more like you're trying to paint me as exaggerating your own answers so that you can ignore my questions.
You might find a link (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/) helpful.This is at least useful. Thanks.
It's hard for me to keep track of so many players.This seems like a weak excuse for just not bothering.
Yeah, I'll jump in. Going to catch up.Looking forward to your posts.
NerjinMax White I don't see how this is scummy and your recent attacks on NQT seem rather like McCarthyism to me.
I fail to see how this line of reasoning holds up. Are you trying to be an aggressive IC by chance because, otherwise, you're seeming awfully keen on knocking of NQT. Specifically though the ending seems more like "You're not doing it right! You are scum!" Every town player wants to survive. It's a simple fact that, as humans and players both, we want to be alive at the end of the day and start of the next. Town players know we shouldn't behave like that but we do anyway. I'm sorry, but you're just making things up it seems so my vote goes to you.
Who is looking for the easier lynch here? Is looking for mistakes in someone else's post considered "making things up"?
I post when I have something to say. Sorry that's just how it is. If I have nothing to say I won't put up a bunch of nothing to make myself look better. I believe so. At this point anyway. I view what NQT did as stupid, no offense to him, but I don't really view it as scum actions. I just think Max is being a little too zealous about it is all so it strikes a bit like McCarthyism to me.So NQT was being 'stupid', but Max is being scummy? How do you distinguish between the two? Would you say that McCarthyism exclusively a scum trait?
To your second point I was stating: The Ideal Town Player will NEVER focus on their own survival and will instead focus ONLY on scum-hunting; none of us are Ideal Town Player. As a general rule EVERY player will fight to stay alive because they view themselves as more useful to town than any other player [especially at the beginning where you only have yourself as confirmed town.]. I hope that makes a bit more sense.Scum are still more likely to defend themselves when threatened or panic under pressure. It's precisely why focusing on defending your arguments is a scumtell. Arguing that there's no "ideal" player is just irrelevant.
Let me propose a counter-argument though. 1 = Cop. 2 = Claimed Not-Cop. 3-9 = Regular townieExcept that no smart player would claim either cop or non-cop for the reasons you described. If they did, it's safe to assume they have no idea what they're doing and hence it would be to your advantage to keep them in the game.
1 has a 1/10 chance of being NK'ed [we assume 11 is also town and is Lynched] if no one claims right? Easy enough.
2 complicates this by claiming. Or do they? You assume that scum would trust someone who says they're not cop right? If I were scum I wouldn't trust a damn thing that came out of a townies mouth. Town power roles will lie just as much as mafia in early game to my experience. As scum the SECOND someone claimed non-cop this early I'd have them marked for death. Why you ask? Simple, wouldn't the cop try to distance himself from the role?
So as Scum I'd kill 2. Simply for the fact that he's my best lead to the cop. If he's not Cop [as 2 did] then I didn't waste a NK and everything is awesome for me anyway. If he IS a Cop then I lucked out!
That assumes scum thinks like me though. I'd say that on average claiming not-cop doesn't change the odds at all that 1 will die. If there even is a 1. Maybe 1 is an A instead. I just doubt that NQT's claim thing there really means anything towards a power-roles death assuming NQT is a townie.
Tunneling implies not watching others too. I'm keeping my eyes open, also still waiting to hear from Persus.
If I see something I think is questionable, I will question it, but right now I'm happy with NQT hanging.
I'm out. I'm in no state to play, and I apologize.Bah.
What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?Are you really defending yourself against defending yourself here? I find this hilarious.
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is useless. Please explain your argument beyond "acting rather weird".
You are acting rather weird.
I am in favor of helping, period. Newbies, experienced players, non players, the moderator. Note that what I mean by helping probably encompasses far more than what for you that word means.Fine.
Going back on your answers, versus correcting a mistake (if you made one). Is that the same thing to you? You may think it's convincing to explain away my challenge against your words and the attitude they spring from as 'imaginary'. I'm not concerned with whether you're a jerk or not. I'm concerned with whether you're a Town or an anti-Town jerk. You're looking pretty anti-Town to me, but it does look like you're also trying to Scum hunt. I won't vote you for being an idiot or making mistakes; if it happens it'll be because of the probability I see in your being Scum.You offered no real argument against my words except to claim that they were "bullshit". I saw no fault in them either. When you come up with something with more substance I'll take it more seriously.
Where'd you get that misperception from?Which? You're not still peddling the "Webadict is a zombie!" theory, right? How is this a misperception?
If you'd prefer for me to ignore a question, do not bother to ask it. Any attempt you make to over exaggerate my answer or to attack me for having answered a question appears, as does you asking any questions that you do not want answered, to be you "just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion".Why are you making assumptions of whether I want answers to the questions I ask or not? Of course I want answers. It looks more like you're trying to paint me as exaggerating your own answers so that you can ignore my questions.
You might find a link (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/) helpful.This is at least useful. Thanks.
It's hard for me to keep track of so many players.This seems like a weak excuse for just not bothering.
Yeah, I'll jump in. Going to catch up.Looking forward to your posts.
ToonyManYou don't vote players who aren't playing, frankly it doesn't really matter what the context of their reasoning was.@Tiruin:You mean voting Webadict, seemingly missing the context in which she voted Webadict for (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713752#msg4713752), but in general who isn't actually playing?ToonyManIt's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
I think you missed her reason there.
ToonyMan: Where are you~? What have you been doing? Why do you only have a few posts~?Hi.
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is a bandwagon vote.
You are acting rather weird.
If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
It should be less than a week, Friday is in only four days after all. I have two school exams I really don't want to do poorly in on Wednesday and Thursday so I've only really had time to make one mafia post a day usually.@Max White:BS. I think you're too good a player to try to pull that one. What do you mean by 'working out' if you don't die within a week's time - Exactly 'what' is going to 'work out' 'how'? That's an entire two weeks of play you'd have mostly not been here for, with at least one player saying "I have no read on you what so ever".ToonyUnfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend. Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.
You haven't offered much to go on, but I think I have a read on you.
MaxThis is outright misleading the town in the hopes they won't check the posts.Were you questioned on a theme?
Please, quote the exact question you were expanding on.So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?I answered your question and then expanded on the theme of day one mistakes.I didn't question you, I pointed out you were doing the wrong thing, and from there you felt the need to expand on the point in an attempt to try and lessen the scum mistake you had made.You clearly did question me: there were question marks and everything. It's all quoted there. How is lessening a mistake a scum tell?!
My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?This was reply number 64. Nobody asked you anything before this relevant to this reply, yet you still try and insist you were answering a question.
So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?This is reply number 66, and came after that comment.
Where are you even getting this from? You asked me questions, I gave you answers. It's okay not to like my answers but don't pretend I never gave them. You've convinced yourself I'm scum and are now working up further evidence for the case. It's just confirmation bias. Your case doesn't amount to a hill of beans.I asked you, very specifically, word for word
What difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?And your reply was
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.
Look, why don't you tell me about what you think of Max's case. As far as I can see it's the only seriously lynch vote so far. So does he have a good argument or not?
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
Max has an argument against me, Nerjin disputes that argument. They both can't be right and both of them have backed up their positions with lynch-votes. The game has left the RVS and there is now substance to discuss. Can you understand why I'd want players to discuss matters of substance in the game? Is Max or Nerjin correct?Oh look, now you are trying desperately to polarize the town. Seriously, we could technically both be wrong, yet you want people to vote based off the fact that somebody is making an argument they may or may not agree with? Technically we could both be right (Were not, but from an outside point of view) and I would be trying to bus you right now. This attitude that 'Either you agree with his argument or you lynch him!' is total scummy bullshit.
Max has the only serious case in the game and yet he has yet to meaningfully question Cmega, Toony, Imp or Nerjin. What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?I would say it works in degrees.
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?Please, elaborate on this case.
You are acting rather weird.
You identify a seriously scummy player fairly early D1. There's a few real life days before the scheduled nightfall. How important is it for you to further verify that your intended target is Scum during this time? How important is it for you to seek the other Scum during this time?It is important to seek other scum at all times. It is also important to verify suspicions, but to at least state them early enough that you aren't jumping in with fifteen minutes until the day ends with a great big case.
Let me put it this way: Max's attacks on NQT could have happened to anyone and I would feel that he was simply trying to whip town, or perhaps just himself, into a fever pitch against the player with very little evidence.What makes you say NQT has little experience? Isn't he IC in the current beginners game?
All vets: Any tips for a Supernatural Newb?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
We don't really know what a Monster Hunter does but if I had a town aligned NK I would go after whomever I thought was the most scummy. If I were more than 75% sure I would use it. Hope this helps.
@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?
I was saying he was trying to whip town into a frenzy. He was trying to drum up a lynch-mob so to speak. I also mentioned that he might just be trying to psych himself up to believe his accusations.
I'd most like to be an Illusionist as that's my favourite kind of magic. However, having looked at the last Supernatural, I'm pretty sure that that's a scum role in this, so maybe I'd pick Exorcist as I like dealing with the theme of ghosts. Does this tell you anything useful?
Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?Does Supernatural have a survivor role? Those are usually the hardest to win by because other roles you can win if your team mates survive after your death.
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
Back to the point: It seems you only signify that one out of the 10+ people here have something tangible as of that post. Why? Do you not think anyone else has things to seriously say?My claim is that Max's vote is the most serious in the game, and by association, Nerjin's vote on Max is also serious. I may be mistaken, but it appears to me that everyone else's votes are just pressure votes, prodding people to be more active or explain some small matter.QuoteMax has the only serious case in the game and yet he has yet to meaningfully question Cmega, Toony, Imp or Nerjin. What's a bigger scum-slip: being defensive, or not actually scum-hunting?"Only." "Serious."
notquitethere - Do you think that policy-lynching lurkers is ever a good strategy? Do you see this strategy as scummy or town-orientated?
notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?
You are acting rather weird.
In game 3, Mysteriousbluepuppet was raised as a zombie. He never appeared on the list of people who could be voted for, but he was slaying people through Toaster's commands. Was the only way to kill him to kill Toaster, who had raised him? Would that even have killed Mysteriousbluepuppet-the-zombie? It's HARD to figure out the one player who purposefully raised a zombie for SK purposes, but less difficult to figure out that kills suddenly started - and maybe the dead person has been raised a killer. What would have happened if a player had said VOTE Mysteriousbluepuppet? Would his name have then appeared on the vote lists? Could the town executioners have discovered his corpse and destroyed it if he'd been the lynch choice?
Toonyman: Welcome in late to the party! If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?
QuoteEVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role.
TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
NQT:
I note that you seem to be voting or FoS'ing people who miss your questions? Something wrong with it?
Max White I don't see how this is scummy and your recent attacks on NQT seem rather like McCarthyism to me.(Please explain either in the [/abbr] tag or something what those terms are...) What is McCarthyism?
Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.
I'm not a copNow this is also scummy. You don't talk about your role day 1!
Chances are we only have so many people with inspects, most likely not many. The most people who claim to not be a cop, the more likely it is that a cop gets NKed. That is pretty basic statistics. Do you not understand how that works?
Toaster
When you've caught up and read the thread could you tell us your initial reflections?
kleril/Toaster – newb, hasn't been that active, didn't seem that interested in scumhunting, but don't really have a read yet.
Caz:notquitethere - Do you think that policy-lynching lurkers is ever a good strategy? Do you see this strategy as scummy or town-orientated?I'm interested in hearing your opinion on the matter.
In actual play I've only seen policy lynching lurkers put forward by scum players. However, players not being engaged with the game is pro-scum, so town have an incentive to pressure lurkers into participating more or replacing out. As such, sometimes the right thing to do is to vote lurkers. This should never be presented as a policy though, as often there'll be better lynch candidates.
Do you disagree and if so, why?
I'd mostly agree with you there.
Pressuring lurkers into being active = Very yes.
Actually lynching lurkers = Usually there's a better candidate, and if you can't find one, town has bigger troubles than a few sleepy villagers.
Though the strategy doesn't detract from how much I loathe lurkers. Especially the ones that come in just before a prod and say "Hey guys! I'll make a post later!" just to disappear for another two days. If it spreads it can be game-breaking.
Ah, this was from my earlier thoughts on kleril. Sorry about that.kleril/Toaster – newb, hasn't been that active, didn't seem that interested in scumhunting, but don't really have a read yet.Nah, I'm no newb. Now Jim, yeah, he's a newbie.
Tiruin...How can you not see where you were going with this if you were the one who caused it in the first place!? What kind of handwave gesture is that?> ...Did you read my question right or are you just skimming over what I did? I posed my own questions there, and continued along that line--now, at this time, there were quite many other people posting posting posting questions questions questions. It isn't in the sheer quantity that makes it 'scumhunting', but in its essence. I sighed to myself and re-checked checked back to see if what I asked was asked before-so I did ask seeing as they were not asked before. Said queries which you seem to be apparently discarding without answering in lieu of the thought train despite missing the query which attempts to make sense of said train.Okay. I just don't see where you're going with this.> ...So if something is just a question, it is then suspicious? Yes. In the matter of how you word it and how the other person analyzes it. Is there a problem in finding suspicion on that question?I was continuing the conversation with Jim on the theme of 3rd party resurrection, that's the reason for the questions. I want to see if Jim's claimed reactions match up with what he's actually doing - that is the nature of the game, right?
Also you totally dodged my questions there bro. I'm not happy with that. Not a good thing. Please answer them, directly.
"But others asked questions!" isn't an excuse for avoiding making any effort of your own.
Nerjin – seems to like defending NQT. Gives a scummy excuse about it being difficult to scumhunt multiple people (difficult to keep track of so many)Want me to explain myself? If I had two votes, one would be you on the pretense of suspicion--check back and see for yourself and the other would be on Cmega because of the flippancy with how he acts, and the total ignorance he moves on with. Foremost being an intentional breach of logic given everything he said, with lacking address of those questioning him (and the implied rudeness.)
Jim Groovester – seems to be observing more than participating. Haven't found fault with his posts so far, though.
Tiruin – has done some fair scumhunting, but hands out votes like candy before moving onto another target, as if he doesn't really care who is lynched.
Persus13 – newb, but acted quite strangely telling Cmega3 to unvote his choice.
Cmega3 – noob. Votes without reason, erratic. Doesn't seem to believe his own arguments and seems to be looking for an easy lynch.
Imp – talks a lot with little substance. annoying, but seems more town than scum to me due to high activity.
ToonyMan – hasn't contributed much at this point. Leaning towards scummy.
notquitethere – notquitesure at this point. Made some stupid mistakes, but not completely convinced he is scum yet.
Caz – this is me.
Max White – has been very active in scumhunting, but could be exaggerating his arguments against NQT for an easy lynch.
kleril/Toaster – newb, hasn't been that active, didn't seem that interested in scumhunting, but don't really have a read yet.
Would you believe me either way? I'm saying that in humor..or something non-serious, and in the way that I answer the question. The appended part is for you to believe or not. Why I added that tag is because lots of people usually get the note on 'If I want role x, then I am role x'..which would deal with a lot of explaining in itself.QuoteEVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role.
Why did you feel the need to specify your non-exorcistness?
And this is an awfully casual poke on a vote for a seemingly passive-aggressive statement.TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
This is an awfully defensive vote.
Had my post mostly done but had to leave for classes.But she..what she said back then..
@Tiruin:ToonyManYou don't vote players who aren't playing, frankly it doesn't really matter what the context of their reasoning was.@Tiruin:You mean voting Webadict, seemingly missing the context in which she voted Webadict for (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713752#msg4713752), but in general who isn't actually playing?ToonyManIt's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
I think you missed her reason there.
NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least. I doubt both are scum of some sort....Wouldn't this be classified too much as a metatell? They could be good dicks bussing too early to separate each other. Though I'm not sure how one could be a dick when the other is busy calling everyone to look at who is tattling on who.
@Imp:...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
Stop confusing the newbies with pointing hands. :Ikleril/Toaster – newb, hasn't been that active, didn't seem that interested in scumhunting, but don't really have a read yet.
Nah, I'm no newb. Now Jim, yeah, he's a newbie.
Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.Erm..you don't put the note of saying 'ok I've missed [x, y, z or any other factors]' and then add an 'I'll scumhunt now' to make up for it...
Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.
Ah, this was from my earlier thoughts on kleril. Sorry about that.kleril/Toaster – newb, hasn't been that active, didn't seem that interested in scumhunting, but don't really have a read yet.Nah, I'm no newb. Now Jim, yeah, he's a newbie.
Would you believe me either way? I'm saying that in humor..or something non-serious, and in the way that I answer the question. The appended part is for you to believe or not. Why I added that tag is because lots of people usually get the note on 'If I want role x, then I am role x'..which would deal with a lot of explaining in itself.QuoteEVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role.
Why did you feel the need to specify your non-exorcistness?
QuoteAnd this is an awfully casual poke on a vote for a seemingly passive-aggressive statement.TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
This is an awfully defensive vote.
Why is that an awfully defensive vote?
Tiruin: First off, see right above.@Last: I first read that as casual. Bleh. Sleeps. (Though I think you do need to work on the reaction testing there given how...declarative the sentence is). How would a reaction do anything but give a basic read? The person may be emotional at the time being, to note.Would you believe me either way? I'm saying that in humor..or something non-serious, and in the way that I answer the question. The appended part is for you to believe or not. Why I added that tag is because lots of people usually get the note on 'If I want role x, then I am role x'..which would deal with a lot of explaining in itself.QuoteEVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role.
Why did you feel the need to specify your non-exorcistness?
That's one of those jokes you probably shouldn't make. I'm not NO FUN ALLOWED in Mafia, but that one is going to be taken at face value.QuoteAnd this is an awfully casual poke on a vote for a seemingly passive-aggressive statement.TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.
Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
This is an awfully defensive vote.
Why is that an awfully defensive vote?
It's causal because I wanted to see your reaction to the poke; said reaction allows me to check the nature of the vote in the first place and give me a starting point for building a read on you. Currently a fairly null read, for the record.
It's because it came (almost) entirely off his attack of you.
I checked your posts in the lurkertracker and they sorely miss out on the posts addressing you (your name is either highlighted in bold or just called out, followed by the respective query). The note on 'try to answer everything' only becomes apparent now that you answered it.Cmega3Max white, could you please calm down a bit?I'd implore you to address quite much everything directed to you as of late, because its pretty...curious how you've been acting.
You are acting rather weird.
Tiruin tilts her hat 45 degrees to the right and looks directly at you.
What's up, son? What do you understand about Mafia?
What do you mean? I've tried to answer everything that's been asked to me lately. What'd I miss?
Nothing's wrong. I saw Max White get very defensive too fast. I don't think it's normal for someone to do that. So, I was very suspicious of him.
I understand mafia is a game. There are two sides. One is town, the other Mafia ("scum").
The Mafia know who else is Mafia, but are less. The town are more, but don't know who else is Town. During the day, town can lynch someone. During the night, Mafia can kill people. That's basically how it works. Most of the game is taken up by arguments between town (and Mafia at night) about wether who to kill/lynch. Correct me if I'm wrong.
[...]
@Tiruin- Got some tips for a nebie? I know I'm doing some things wrong, but I'm trying. Never played anything like this before.
(Though I think you do need to work on the reaction testing there given how...declarative the sentence is).
Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed?Well, that's what people used it for in the BM I played and previous Supernatural games.
Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?
Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.QuotePerhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.Your going me invite to vote for you? If you are town chances are you are the only confirmed town you know of, and you are going to invite me to vote for somebody that should be confirmed town to you. You are asking me to vote for the only person you know is town... Unless you aren't actually town and that sort of passive aggressive bullshit is not going to fly.
You are scum Notquitethere and I'll see you lynched.
Yeah, but the fact is you're still tunneling NQT. Jim, Caz and Tiruin all made posts, yet you seem to have found nothing questionable about their posts, while every time NQT makes a post you seem to turn it into another nail of his coffin.Max White: Would you say that you're tunneling notquitethere? When you are sure of a scumpick would you say that you stop hunting everyone else in favour of picking apart everything he says?Tunneling implies not watching others too. I'm keeping my eyes open, also still waiting to hear from Persus.
If I see something I think is questionable, I will question it, but right now I'm happy with NQT hanging.
NerjinThat isn't WIFOM, Nerjin was making a counter-example to your WIFOM. Here's what he said:
Even if somebody were to swallow your wine, that doubt that such a claim makes exists for the town too when later they suddenly come out and say "Oh yea guys, I'm a cop now! You should lynch who I tell you to lynch when it is most vital!"
Nope, that is bullshit. Cop shouldn't claim non-cop, and as such neither should anybody else. The sort of WIFOM you are peddling right now is hardly productive.
So as Scum I'd kill 2. [...]Notice that he used I when he talked about scum and then his last paragraph he pointed out that this is only his view, and otherwise it is WIFOM.
That assumes scum thinks like me though. I'd say that on average claiming not-cop doesn't change the odds at all that 1 will die. If there even is a 1. Maybe 1 is an A instead. I just doubt that NQT's claim thing there really means anything towards a power-roles death assuming NQT is a townie.
Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713558#msg4713558)he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4715280#msg4715280)his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.
So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.
Do tell.
PersusI learned very little from your response but would have gotten a successful dialogue going if I hadn't messed up and forgot about your questions. So it's a slightly, but not completely wrong question.notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?
Persus131. Good point. Scum-hunting buddies slightly could be useful. But I don't really want to get into hypothetical scenarios that I'm not sure how they'd turn out.Why would you not hunt your scum-buddies? Do you really think that would be advantageous to your team?Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?I have no clue. Do what I'd normally do except scum-hunt those I know aren't scum. Other than Cmega, I'm probably the most newb player in the game (on par with Kleril)
Persus13Voting someone in order to get them to do something is pressure voting. Voting someone because you think/know their scum and want them to hang is lynch voting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are different.Pressure isn't pressure without the threat of a lynch. Why would they be worried if you're going to remove your vote after they answered your question? Did he answer so satisfactorily that you are now convinced he is town?
Persus13 – newb, but acted quite strangely telling Cmega3 to unvote his choice.If you had bothered to read my posts instead of Jim's, you would find that my question was because I saw a post from Cmega saying he was cancelling his vote but the most recent votecount (when I asked) still had him voting NQT (Both linked in my earlier explanation to Jim). If NQT is an important and got lynched accidentally because of that then there would be major problems.
Persus13:I asked you why because I think asking about hypothetical scenarios that's highly unlikely to happen is dumb unless their's an underlying motive.*considers the question* I wasn't aware that you considered pretty specific scenario questions unhelpful.Hey, Imp, I'm failing to see how this question helps you. It seems like a pretty specific scenario.Persus13:I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game. During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it. There was no kill N1. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
Specifically, I'd noticed that you'd asked Jim a question about his opinion of the most dangerous Scumteam (a question he'd been asked and had answered S5; his newest answer hasn't changed from then). That got me to wondering your overall absorption of the previous games, which was part of why I picked this question to go to you.
Would you say you mostly skimmed or remember little about each of the previous S games? Did you enjoy reading them, did they make sense? Which one was your favorite? Was there one you found the least interesting?
Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town.No it isn't. That's trying to start a bandwagon. People should be voting for who they think is scum, not for who someone else thinks is scum. You're not that dense.
Apparently you are though.
You're FoSing notquitethere for saying exactly what you're saying.
Persus13: Tiruin hands you a welcome to Mafia flyer. It is smooth in texture and glossy to the hand. On the paper is a detailed drawing of a human body, clothed in a rather dashing looking formal blacksuit along with a bowler hat. It is smoking a rather ornate pipe. In its right hand is a revolver, crossed along the chest and its other hand is pointing apparently at the viewer. There are no words on it.Most people seem to be town like, even Cmega3 is getting slightly better at playing. Max is confusing. He seems like scum but I've seen him do this before. Kleril/Toaster and Imp seem a lot quieter this game than normal, which makes me wonder if they're more scummy. The one person no one seems to be discussing or voting is Jim, who seems to be above the radar at the moment. I don't have good reads on most people, so I need to question more people. I also need to devote time to rereading NQT, because he seems very defensive but Max's attacks on him are throwing me off. I definitely think there are wrong questions to ask.
What have you learned as of late--who do you suspect, I want names--why aren't you asking questions? Do you think there are a certain subset of 'right' questions and 'wrong' questions to ask?
PPEPPE?Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.Erm..you don't put the note of saying 'ok I've missed [x, y, z or any other factors]' and then add an 'I'll scumhunt now' to make up for it...
What have you learned as of late, and do you have any reads on the general masses?
Also:
> Notify in the tab bar.
It sends you emails. Forever.
Unless you check your newbox everyday to see this thread with every update.
Persus:Thanks for the advice.Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.
(http://i.imgur.com/YbDfVIn.png)
That link is your friend.
Toony:When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions. I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody). Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.Since when is derping out a valid reason to vote someone?
I would be impressed if that were true. I don't believe it.NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least. I doubt both are scum of some sort....Wouldn't this be classified too much as a metatell? They could be good dicks bussing too early to separate each other. Though I'm not sure how one could be a dick when the other is busy calling everyone to look at who is tattling on who.
True enough, I can't recall seeing a player mistake a typical game for a bastard but it's probably happened. Although Imp is voting me now for some reason...?@Imp:...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
I could say the same for myself as I don't see myself as skilled at all given...my whole history on this board.
Oh pish-posh. I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there. You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.@Cmega3:The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is a bandwagon vote.
You are acting rather weird.
As a third-party, you would be willing to act lone-wolf-idler given the pretense of being resurrected? Just the same as you would do if you were given a faction? Or would it be subjective given the matter of randomness and/or the situation at hand?
If people were to suspect you, would you just point fingers at others or do something else?
Why does he need to give a reason for these mistakes?
My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?This was reply number 64. Nobody asked you anything before this relevant to this reply, yet you still try and insist you were answering a question.
There's many possible questions to ask, many possible ways to ask them. Toony's seemed to have little time to put into the game so far, I hoped to ask a question that could be quickly answered yet still give me a range of likely answers which might help me understand his thinking/see how utterly unwilling he was to distinguish answers.
You stepped into a question from Caz to me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4714038#msg4714038), not to answer it, nor to (directly) say it shouldn't have been asked, but to volunteer related (and accidental) misinformation. Yours is a very confident tone and you are a strong speaker. I'd like to understand better what you think about how careful you (usually) are with facts and how quick you are to close off ideas before they have been investigated.
I'd also like to know, roughly, how your 'fact checking'/'idea dismissal' reactions differ when you respond to these three classes: Yourself. Experienced players. New players.
'wholeistic'
Posting from work, this must be kept brief.
Jim has played very passively, mostly just responding to questions. He has yet to direct a question at Toony, Tiruin, Cmega (though he accused the latter of going through the motions but didn't take this accusation anywhere). He said he was just getting started with the questions, I've still yet to see it. What's your defence Jim?
Is Max or Nerjin correct?
I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.
@Cmega3:The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.Oh pish-posh. I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there. You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.
Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.
Jim:So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?
Anyone:Apparently you are though.
You're FoSing notquitethere for saying exactly what you're saying.
I'm sorry, can someone explain this argument to me? I can't follow where this is going.
Nah, I'm no newb. Now Jim, yeah, he's a newbie.
Why wasn't Tiruin scummy when she did it? Quote's earlier in my post.Well in retrospect she kind of was, but there are other things to take into account that make NQT more scummy. Tiruin mentioned it when in an answer that related to roles, NQT bought it up to try and justify having an especially good wincon. The intensive to just use it as a defense, rather than just a passing comment on an otherwise boring answer makes it more scummy. Also when questioned on it Tiruin gave an explanation of why she said it, while NQT lashed out in a display of "Screw anything you think is actually beneficial to the town"
]I can talk about my role any day I please. There's no Mafia Commandments that I have to follow.
Why are you so ready to believe that he's not a cop? In fact, your argument here is bass-ackwards. You're saying claiming non-cop is bad, because scum prefers to NK cops and therefore won't NK him. Ergo, he's scum. However, if he's scum, then he's not a town cop at all, completely negating the danger from him claiming that.I don't think he is a cop, I think he is scum who claimed to be cop.
I saw Max White get very defensive too fast. I don't think it's normal for someone to do that. So, I was very suspicious of him.Really? Interesting, what behavior do you think was defensive? Please go on. Evidence is always good.
Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.I hadn't even said I suspected him at that point, but he sure assumed I was saying he was scum. What do you think that sort of defensive paranoia is indicative of?
Yeah, but the fact is you're still tunneling NQT. Jim, Caz and Tiruin all made posts, yet you seem to have found nothing questionable about their posts, while every time NQT makes a post you seem to turn it into another nail of his coffin.Three people made posts, and because I didn't really go for the throat on any of them I'm just focused on one person? I think some people are having somewhat interesting lines of questions going and I don't really want to fuck with that, it can be counter productive. If I think a point is going unpressed I will go for it.
That isn't WIFOM, Nerjin was making a counter-example to your WIFOM.Please, that sort of "Oh, then people are actually the OPPOSITE of what ever they say they are!" is the embodiment of WIFOM. An analysis of the numbers behind why we don't claim what we are not (And also why vanilla townies should never claim) isn't.
Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.Ok I'm most likely doing myself a disservice here, but fuck it. These games are even more slower than I remember, with people sitting around until suddenly the day draws short and then everybody suddenly has time to shout "EXTEND!!!" but not provide any real content. My ability to give a fuck decreases by the hour, so if this gets my lynched then kudos to you I guess.
So you're suggesting that notquitethere should have just ignored the insinuations you made in the post he's responding to, because 'nobody asked him anything.'He is allowed to bring it up, and I'm allowed to question him on it, but if he wants to claim that he bought it up because I questioned him that is an outright lie. I'm suggesting that claiming that he initially bought up his defense because it was in a reply to a question I asked is a fabrication.
That's ludicrous. Ridiculous. Ridiculudicrous.
This isn't the only departure from logic I noticed but it's the only one I want to address right now.
This is outright misleading the town in the hopes they won't check the posts.I'm not trying to mislead anyone, we're just talking at cross-purposes here.
You said I'd made a mistake, I acknowledged the mistake and then made a comment about the early game in general. Still failing to see how this makes me scum...My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?This was reply number 64. Nobody asked you anything before this relevant to this reply, yet you still try and insist you were answering a question.
I think we have different standards as to what constitutes a 'question'. You queried my behaviour, I gave an explanation and expanded on it. Can we stop going round in circles now?So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?This is reply number 66, and came after that comment.
Unless you can tell the future in real life, there is no way that you were answering the question quoted. All I did was point out you made a mistake and then you got defensive from there, no questions asked about it until you got defensive. Once you had shown that tell I questioned you about it, but that came after.
I don't see anything wrong with my answer. Obviously I don't think you should ignore what you take to be scumtells and so I took that part of your question to be rhetorical. Did you actually want me to spell that out?QuoteWhere are you even getting this from? You asked me questions, I gave you answers. It's okay not to like my answers but don't pretend I never gave them. You've convinced yourself I'm scum and are now working up further evidence for the case. It's just confirmation bias. Your case doesn't amount to a hill of beans.I asked you, very specifically, word for wordWhat difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?And your reply was
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.That is totally evading the actual question. You never even tried to give me an answer, you thought you would just 'clarify' and everything would be forgotten.
Oh look, now you are trying desperately to polarize the town. Seriously, we could technically both be wrong, yet you want people to vote based off the fact that somebody is making an argument they may or may not agree with? Technically we could both be right (Were not, but from an outside point of view) and I would be trying to bus you right now. This attitude that 'Either you agree with his argument or you lynch him!' is total scummy bullshit.You mischaracterise what I'm doing. You explicitly stated that I am scum. I deny this. I fail to see how we can both be right about this! I'm trying to get town to appraise your arguments and make a decision. I don't think they should lynch you if they disagree with you: I think you're wrong about me but you're hardly the scummiest player.
NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least. I doubt both are scum of some sort.Unlike with me and Dariush in WC3, I don't even think Max is definitely scum. I just think he's mistaken.
Are you really defending yourself against defending yourself here? I find this hilarious.Amusing it may be, but offering up a defence when presented with arguments against you is a null-tell.
Max White – has been very active in scumhunting, but could be exaggerating his arguments against NQT for an easy lynch.I'd contest this point: he's been very active in pursuing a case against me, but had yet to converse with all players in the game as of yesterday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4722255#msg4722255).
Well I'm to say! Max's argument is that my behaviour conclusively shows me to be scum. He really is quite certain. I know that this is wrong. How can this admit ambiguity?Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?Who is to say they aren't both right or both wrong? You should know better that to set up something like that, NQT.
Why isn't your vote serious?It had the potential to turn into a lynching vote, but as was, it was just a bit of pressure. Normal early-game stuff.
You are scummy, Max is scummy, Cmega hasn't got a grasp on hunting scum yet. Toony and Nerjin are worth another look. Jim is quiet.'Scummy' is a bit nebulous. I don't think Max is particularly scummy, he's just pursuing the wrong case. Town do that all the time. You're right about Nerjin, and I'm looking forward to getting content when Toony is less busy.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Max is claiming that his argument shows that I am scum, Nerjin is saying that this is not the case. They both can't be right: A or ¬A, but not both. Scum don't actually like appraising arguments, reasoning things through and making definite decisions.Is Max or Nerjin correct?Why the dichotomy? It's possible (but unlikely) that they're both right. It's also possible that they're both wrong.
Did you forget about these possibilities (primarily the latter), or are you trying to force the issue between either of these two players?
I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.Yeah, I don't like you trying to bring attention to these two players.
Well? Is Max's argument a good argument? Does it definitively show that I am scum? Here it is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721546#msg4721546), what do you think?Each and either is correct in their own mind, but I'm wondering on the stability on what they stand on to base what is correct or not.Enough wishy-washy relativism. Each may believe themselves to be correct but as they are diametrically opposed only one can be correct. So which is it?
NQT is playing dumb not scummyTo Tiruin:
I don't think NQT is playing dumb. I think NQT is playing in a manner that isn't optimal. He's not playing well is what I mean but I don't think he's scum.To Caz:
BUT the mistakes, for they are there, that Max is claiming are irrefutable proof of NQT's scummyness don't prove anything at all and honestly just seem like bad play to me....It's human nature and what NQT has done, while dumb as hell, doesn't seem particularly scummy.
Because you were putting it on a player who wasn't even in the game. I guess in retrospect it's not that big of a deal but voting on someone who literally CAN'T be lynched is basically abstaining.
I wonder where you got your name..seeing the date of creation. It's rather fascinating speculating on it...I'm always thinking mischievous little cute imp
Tiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game. During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing! No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
ImpQuoteYou identify a seriously scummy player fairly early D1. There's a few real life days before the scheduled nightfall. How important is it for you to further verify that your intended target is Scum during this time? How important is it for you to seek the other Scum during this time?It is important to seek other scum at all times. It is also important to verify suspicions, but to at least state them early enough that you aren't jumping in with fifteen minutes until the day ends with a great big case.
NerjinDid you misread Nerjin's words of "very little evidence" as "very little experience"? If not, where did Nerjin say this? Here's the link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4722463#msg4722463) to the post you quoted if that helps you remember/find it.QuoteLet me put it this way: Max's attacks on NQT could have happened to anyone and I would feel that he was simply trying to whip town, or perhaps just himself, into a fever pitch against the player with very little evidence.What makes you say NQT has little experience? Isn't he IC in the current beginners game?
You offered no real argument against my words except to claim that they were "bullshit".
You'd asked about newbie mistakes to watch out for. He's said that he's not going to try and stop you from making those newbie mistakes - you answered with garbage: boldly stating that 'it's in his best interest for you to play effectively, unless he's Scum.'Spoiler: quotes placed here, for easy reference (click to show/hide)
First off, you're assuming that newbie mistakes replace and prevent effective play - instead both are likely to be present in a newbie's play, if that newbie's actually trying to actively play and achieve their wincon.
Secondly, you (appear to) assume that it's possible to turn you into an effective player by pointing out common newbie mistakes you should watch for. That's farcically incorrect.
Thirdly, you make the claim that it's in his best interests to invest time, effort, energy, and whatever else it takes, not into Scumhunting, but into making sure that -you- play effectively (or he's Scum). Do you really intend to state that?
To confirm your view: I'm an anti-Town jerk who scumhunts, right?Nope, I'm not sure yet if you're anti-Town or not. You seem more not-Town then Town to me, but I'm not convinced yet. You do appear to be trying to Scumhunt.
How does the former align with the latter in your view?Scum have to conceal themselves as not-Scum; appearing to Scumhunt seems to be a very commonly used and highly recommended method.
Do you even read what you write?Yep. Far more carefully than you read what I write, that seems very obvious.
Where'd you get that misperception from?Which? You're not still peddling the "Webadict is a zombie!" theory, right? How is this a misperception?
Though I am glad you've given up on that train of thought, it does bother me that you want to keep going over it.
Why are you making assumptions of whether I want answers to the questions I ask or not? Of course I want answers. It looks more like you're trying to paint me as exaggerating your own answers so that you can ignore my questions.You ask about a topic I say I won't talk about again unless asked about; you use my answer to make the claim that I want to keep going over what you ask about. One of several reasons I'm sure you're a jerk.
True enough, I can't recall seeing a player mistake a typical game for a bastard but it's probably happened. Although Imp is voting me now for some reason...?@Imp:...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
I could say the same for myself as I don't see myself as skilled at all given...my whole history on this board.
I can field a couple of those. The zombie was not voteable, but was actionable... if anyone knew the right person to action, when the only possible hint would come from a sexton (who can't do any action against the zombie.) IIRC the zombie goes if the necromancer goes.
Toonyman: Welcome in late to the party! If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?
This is a very specific question. Have you, perhaps, read Paranormal 11?
Your game this game is majorly different from the current BM going on. You seem less talkative and asking a lot fewer understandable questions then in BM (though this game may just be much more active) and have come up with a crazy theory for a GM mistake. Is this Scum Imp playing?No. Keeping in mind that one's apparently not supposed to discuss an ongoing game... at least you're dead in a game that lacks resurrection, so maybe you can talk more freely. I don't know. But I'll try to respond without saying 'too much'.
It's interesting that you view an aikido-like use of momentum as scum-style evasion. I don't necessarily, I think certain people play in an aikido-like way, and you are one of these people - which is not to say I am calling you Scum because of it; I'm still essentially undecided on my impression of your alignment. Your use of momentum appears to me to include a fair amount of evasion, grounding, circling, and indirect approaches.Mafia is textual sparring, and you show quite comprehensively that martial arts metaphors fit quite nicely.
I'm not sure how to respond to that charge. Far as I knew it was Scumhunting. I failed to follow up on your answer to my question about your question to Kleril because you brought up a very strong reason (seemed so to me) why I should not, which I bold here -That's fine, I'd rather have had some kind of response, but I'll drop the point.We should refrain from talking about current games though
As far as my aikido-esk question to you and my purpose in asking it, it's about understanding what you're willing and able to say about your strategy and comparing that answer to what your strategy itself shows me. That your words are so different from how your strategy appears to me to be is interesting and was unexpected. I'm still thinking that over.I don't see myself as deflecting attacks, which is why I resisted the aikido metaphor for town-play.
If you are Scum, I somewhat believe that's going to become more evident over time. If you happen to be the Cult Converter, you've got to die asap. Right now I have no idea if we have a cult, a not especially strong sense that you're scum, and a fairly strong expectation that if you live you're going to keep posting and interacting at a fairly high level - this will allow multiple chances to observe you both directly and indirectly and will allow more chances to get a stronger sense of your alignment.Well, I will certainly keep on posting and pressing cases as long as I survive in this game. What do you think would clue you in to there being a cult?
I note that this is not the only topic you're discussing, for all that you've presented it as a serious topic to the point of being near the edge of tacitly suggesting it's the most important issue in the game so far. I wonder if that reflects on how you are the target; I wonder at how I feel myself percieving a plea for help in your words, not just to myself but to each of those you personally ask.As far as I can tell, Max has pressed his case in stronger and more absolute terms than anyone else. Is there anything else more serious in the game? of course, I'm pursuing other things: we should be mindful of significant game-events but never focus on them exclusively. That gives the other players too easy a time!
Here is my take on the situation, as of right now, Max's side. Max is pushing you, and pushing you hard. He is not pushing anyone else as hard, right now or as yet. I believe he's trying to 'sound' you, to read your depths in your reactions, and to interpret them as best he can (for himself, honestly? For us, dishonestly? Either is possible, I'm listening for both and everything else I hear) while continuing to press with what I'd call 'great force'.I think he's doing more than sounding me out: Max has made a positive declaration to have me lynched.
You didn't ask for your side to be considered, you asked for Nerjin's. That's so aikido to me. Anyway, I think Nerjin's dead set to defend you. I can't tell what that means yet, if that means that Nerjin defends people and would defend anyone being 'hunted' as you currently are, or if it means anything else.Two obvious possibilities appear to me. 1. Nerjin is a nice chap, and I think his natural inclination is to question dodgy arguments with enthusiasm. 2. Often when playing a scum-type role in the past, I'd go out of my way to defend someone I knew to be town; defending a town player from attack (and implicitly attacking the attacker) is much easier do for scum than straight-forwardly attacking. They can marshall good and honest arguments in a defence, whereas if they attack a player head on then they have to resort to distortion and hyperbole.
[...]
He's 'ringing the not-Scum' bell for you really hard. Almost to the point I think he may not care -what- else he says, or if it contradicts what he's said before or may say next, as long as it might help get the message that you are not scum across. It seems seriously important to him that we all get that message, and as I bolded - he's either accidentally or intentionally willing to directly contradict himself, repeatedly and pretty freely. That's kinda neat. What does it mean? I'm still thinking that over.
Are you guessing, or actually maybe recalling correctly, that the zombie goes if the necromancer goes? That would have had to have been something you discussed with Meph in PMs - did you ask that then? How do you know that the zombie was not voteable - is that certain, or a guess? ... If I missed or misunderstood publicly available stuff that you remember, would you link it or at least provide clues for finding it myself?
A few questions for you: Jim is quiet. How concerned are you about that, and how (what direction(s)) are you concerned about?
What flavor of Scum or known Third party do you consider most dangerous to Town?
And I'd asked this question of Kleril, he never answered so I'll pass it to you now -
Imagine your role made you be a Devil in this game. If you had to pick right now, which other player would you first approach to deal with, and why would you choose that player?
Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.
Max White:Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed?Well, that's what people used it for in the BM I played and previous Supernatural games.
Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?
And I dropped it because I didn't need it anymore, and because I might use again not to pressure someone else. You're just disappointed because it meant NQT lost a vote.
Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.
@ToasterToony:When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions. I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody). Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.Since when is derping out a valid reason to vote someone?
NQT bought it up to try and justify having an especially good wincon.
I wish I had a bike that could peddle backwards.I'm not a cop and this isn't a BM. I am town and I'm still quite optimistic about a win. I can see everything you said, but I don't see how any of it amounts to me being scum.
Seriously, you were NKed twice as town on the first night, and suddenly you are feeling optimistic?
No, after that wincon comment, you don't look like town buddy.
QuoteWhy are you so ready to believe that he's not a cop? In fact, your argument here is bass-ackwards. You're saying claiming non-cop is bad, because scum prefers to NK cops and therefore won't NK him. Ergo, he's scum. However, if he's scum, then he's not a town cop at all, completely negating the danger from him claiming that.I don't think he is a cop, I think he is scum who claimed to be cop.
Claiming your role, even inverse claims, are bad and not something town should do, but it is something scum might be willing to do in their own defense.
If he was town then ok, sometimes mistakes happen. Not everybody just understand the maths involved without thinking about it or being told. Maybe town non-cop NQT really just did not understand what he was doing... Except then instead of admitting he had made this mistake like he said he likes to do, he lashed out and declared himself above town convention and that there are no mafia commandments to go by. There are lots of things best avoided by town, but apparently they don't apply when NQT has a defense to make.
In fact, what exactly is your case on him? Could I get it in a concise and neat package, because it's really murky.He laid it out in alphabetised points for Jim, about three pages back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4721546#msg4721546).
Nerjin— You're right about Max being wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not scum. As far as I can work out, you've only pressed questions on three players so far this game. This puts you on the same tier as two newbies and a player that has been mostly absent. You haven't been absent, and you're not a new player. It's okay to miss things from time to time, and your case on Max is understandable, but how can you be sure it's the best case you could be pursuing when you haven't even pressed the majority of your fellow players? Could you even give me a considered assessment of scumminess of all the other players?
Nerjin:
Bold is my emphasis:
To Imp:NQT is playing dumb not scummyTo Tiruin:I don't think NQT is playing dumb. I think NQT is playing in a manner that isn't optimal. He's not playing well is what I mean but I don't think he's scum.To Caz:BUT the mistakes, for they are there, that Max is claiming are irrefutable proof of NQT's scummyness don't prove anything at all and honestly just seem like bad play to me....It's human nature and what NQT has done, while dumb as hell, doesn't seem particularly scummy.
Umm.... what are you doing? It looks like you're flipping back and forth between saying NQT is playing/being dumb, saying he's not, then saying he is again. Are you actually doing that? Why are you doing this?
Also, to comment on your answer,Because you were putting it on a player who wasn't even in the game. I guess in retrospect it's not that big of a deal but voting on someone who literally CAN'T be lynched is basically abstaining.
I assure you, once I was certain that I was voting for someone who was not a threat to Town (and also could not be lynched, but my focus was the perceived threat to Town), I stopped having any interest in what may appear to you to be 'abstaining' from voting. My vote was not placed with any intention to do anything but to make the most use of it I could see any possible way to use. Had the typo not been there, or had I realized it was a typo and not an intentionally placed clue to go with a long series of other clues all seeming to me to point in a very clear and very threatening direction, my first use of my vote would not have been placed as it was.
[. . .] one of the less experienced players most likely... Caz or Persus, maybe Nerjin.
Are you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.I took a moment to consider it. And yes, I don't think it's unreasonable to at least make a stab at querying even just most of the other players. I agree that you should pursue the person you find most scummy, but how are you to ascertain who that person is if you haven't even seriously considered more than three targets? Also, what pro-town reason do you have for not revealing your reads? I suspect you don't have any reads because you haven't meaningfully engaged with more than a handful of players.
Oh look, now you are trying desperately to polarize the town. Seriously, we could technically both be wrong, yet you want people to vote based off the fact that somebody is making an argument they may or may not agree with? Technically we could both be right (Were not, but from an outside point of view) and I would be trying to bus you right now. This attitude that 'Either you agree with his argument or you lynch him!' is total scummy bullshit.You mischaracterise what I'm doing. You explicitly stated that I am scum. I deny this. I fail to see how we can both be right about this! I'm trying to get town to appraise your arguments and make a decision. I don't think they should lynch you if they disagree with you: I think you're wrong about me but you're hardly the scummiest player.
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
Max has an argument against me, Nerjin disputes that argument. They both can't be right and both of them have backed up their positions with lynch-votes. The game has left the RVS and there is now substance to discuss. Can you understand why I'd want players to discuss matters of substance in the game? Is Max or Nerjin correct?
ToasterWell I'm to say! Max's argument is that my behaviour conclusively shows me to be scum. He really is quite certain. I know that this is wrong. How can this admit ambiguity?Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?Who is to say they aren't both right or both wrong? You should know better that to set up something like that, NQT.
You are scummy, Max is scummy, Cmega hasn't got a grasp on hunting scum yet. Toony and Nerjin are worth another look. Jim is quiet.'Scummy' is a bit nebulous. I don't think Max is particularly scummy, he's just pursuing the wrong case. Town do that all the time. You're right about Nerjin, and I'm looking forward to getting content when Toony is less busy.
[. . .] one of the less experienced players most likely... Caz or Persus, maybe Nerjin.
... My feelings... You have hurt them.
Are you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.
I wasn't really trying to lynch Persus, I was just wanting him to explain himself. The vote was from the RVS and has only stayed there because he's been lax at responding to this thread.
He is allowed to bring it up, and I'm allowed to question him on it, but if he wants to claim that he bought it up because I questioned him that is an outright lie. I'm suggesting that claiming that he initially bought up his defense because it was in a reply to a question I asked is a fabrication.
4500 word wall of text
A few questions for you: Jim is quiet. How concerned are you about that, and how (what direction(s)) are you concerned about?
ToonyMan:No. I do not make RVS votes, you misinterpret and I am severely lacking the time and energy to be more coherent. I find Imp scummy for being verbose and misleading and try to figure out what they are even saying to me in this WoT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4724948#msg4724948). And in the very post you quote me giving reasons on other suspects like Tiruin or Nerjin who I would easily vote if I wasn't particular to Imp right now.@ToasterSo you put what amounts to an RVS vote on him and just stick it there with no backup reasoning other than "no one else is that scummy?" Really, Toony? That's the best you can do?Toony:When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions. I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody). Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.Since when is derping out a valid reason to vote someone?
[. . .]
Nerjin:
[. . .]Are you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.
So it's late D1, and you only have one suspect? Interesting, because that's pretty weaksauce. I'd like to see at least two more names of people you suspect.
NerjinAre you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.I took a moment to consider it. And yes, I don't think it's unreasonable to at least make a stab at querying even just most of the other players. I agree that you should pursue the person you find most scummy, but how are you to ascertain who that person is if you haven't even seriously considered more than three targets? Also, what pro-town reason do you have for not revealing your reads? I suspect you don't have any reads because you haven't meaningfully engaged with more than a handful of players.
What I'm asking isn't that unreasonable Nerjin: most of the players in the game have asked questions of most of the other players already. If you are town, then maybe I'm pushing you outside your usual comfort zone for playing. Do you usually limit your enquiries to a very small handful of players? Do you find tunnelling a particularly effective town-tactic?
A few questions for you: Jim is quiet. How concerned are you about that, and how (what direction(s)) are you concerned about?
Fuck you, pal. I am not quiet because I don't regularly shit out walls of text.
Toaster
When you've caught up and read the thread could you tell us your initial reflections?
You are scummy, Max is scummy, Cmega hasn't got a grasp on hunting scum yet. Toony and Nerjin are worth another look. Jim is quiet.
I suspect him but I'm not sure whether this behavior is normal for him or not. Is this normal behavior of Max? I believe you also ignored the section that says I'm not getting good reads on people.Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.
Do you suspect him or not?
If you do, then why aren't you voting him?
Yeah, you're scum. You want to look like you have targets but because you're new you lack the commitment to put your neck on the line and say for sure one way or the other. That's why you're doing this halfway statement with the blue text.
And it's not like your vote is on somebody else; you still haven't cast it.
I fail to see how that's a slip-up. Thanks for the tip though. By the same implication any insult thrown at me that I just ignore is true. And if I have a technical question I'm going to ask it and not care about how scummy I look.Jim:So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?
This isn't a denial that you and Cmega3 are scumbuddies. In recognizing that I was implying you are scum to get you angry and make a slipup, you made a slipup!
THE IRONY
THE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE IRONY
As for your question, it works sometimes, like it did just now. It's also a pretty standard tactic; you should get used to it happening a lot.
Thanks for the clear-up. I asked anyone because multiple people were involved, not just you.Anyone:Apparently you are though.
You're FoSing notquitethere for saying exactly what you're saying.
I'm sorry, can someone explain this argument to me? I can't follow where this is going.
What, is asking me out of the question? Am I really that scary?
notquitethere said something. Caz misread it, cast an FoS at notquitethere, and then said the exact same thing as if it were a correction to what NQT said. I called Caz dense for it.
End of story.
PersusWell when it seems like you doubt his story going on the defensive seems valid to me.Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.I hadn't even said I suspected him at that point, but he sure assumed I was saying he was scum. What do you think that sort of defensive paranoia is indicative of?
Okay, you were still tunneling. But that didn't mean you were ignoring people, just not pressuring them.QuoteYeah, but the fact is you're still tunneling NQT. Jim, Caz and Tiruin all made posts, yet you seem to have found nothing questionable about their posts, while every time NQT makes a post you seem to turn it into another nail of his coffin.Three people made posts, and because I didn't really go for the throat on any of them I'm just focused on one person? I think some people are having somewhat interesting lines of questions going and I don't really want to fuck with that, it can be counter productive. If I think a point is going unpressed I will go for it.
Yeah but your analysis had several flaws that Nerjin pointed out in the game. And that's ignoring the point that we don't have a cop in the game so him claiming not cop is like me claiming that I'm not a nuclear missile. It's true, and while there is an analogue to cop it's not as explicit.QuoteThat isn't WIFOM, Nerjin was making a counter-example to your WIFOM.Please, that sort of "Oh, then people are actually the OPPOSITE of what ever they say they are!" is the embodiment of WIFOM. An analysis of the numbers behind why we don't claim what we are not (And also why vanilla townies should never claim) isn't.
Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.Ok I'm most likely doing myself a disservice here, but fuck it. These games are even more slower than I remember, with people sitting around until suddenly the day draws short and then everybody suddenly has time to shout "EXTEND!!!" but not provide any real content. My ability to give a fuck decreases by the hour, so if this gets my lynched then kudos to you I guess.
Persus— I'm glad you're back. If you had to vote anyone now who would it be? Also, how are you going to get reads on people when you don't even ask them all questions?I'm glad I'm back too. At the moment I'd vote Max, but until someone answers my questions on playstyle I'm going to wait. I'm doing what I normally do, look for things I find confusing or wrong and ask questions on them or just point them out. This sometimes gives me good reads. Is being defensive, attacking someone defending you, and analyzing people asking questions normal for you?
Persus13:Well, I shouldn't have the question if I had known you were going to post a huge wall of text. It's just it seems that you are unusually wordy this game with not as much to say. As for my "confidence" level, the big difference this game is that I played this from the start and with people not as newbie as me. In BM I replaced in with an outsider's perspective, questions at the ready and had plenty of targets to pick and fire away at. Here I don't have a lot of previous experience with many of the players in Mafia. It's also more active. (Also, impressions? I offered them when I had them but they constantly changed.Your game this game is majorly different from the current BM going on. You seem less talkative and asking a lot fewer understandable questions then in BM (though this game may just be much more active) and have come up with a crazy theory for a GM mistake. Is this Scum Imp playing?No. Keeping in mind that one's apparently not supposed to discuss an ongoing game... at least you're dead in a game that lacks resurrection, so maybe you can talk more freely. I don't know. But I'll try to respond without saying 'too much'.
Other than this game having some differences from the ongoing BM, in roles, unknown role status, tone, the attitude and experience level of most of my fellow players, and a history connecting to some degree with previous incarnations of the game (roles to possibly expect if nothing else) - to me there's not much difference in how I'm playing here as there, and those differences are situational.
[.....]
There's a few differences in your play this game than in the BM too. Is Scum Persus13 playing now? In the BM you seemed to have in general more confidence. Once you replaced in, you really seemed to help get everyone talking with each other more, you asked about things (repeatedly when not quickly answered) including questions about how people were interacting with each other and what people meant when they said things, and you never seemed at a loss for questions to ask or impressions to offer.
Persus:Sorry, what?Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.
Really?
Well I assumed this was his usual playstyle. Does he normally play like this?Max White:Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed?Well, that's what people used it for in the BM I played and previous Supernatural games.
Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?
And I dropped it because I didn't need it anymore, and because I might use again not to pressure someone else. You're just disappointed because it meant NQT lost a vote.Why not vote Max here? What is your opinion of Max in terms of scummitude?
Herp derp you said why you didn't.Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.
To what extent can he get away with scummy play because of something that happened over two years ago (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.0)? This is a weak reason when it's applied against a recent game- trying to stick it to an old game when the person in question hasn't played in quite some time just doesn't hold water.
I think there is definitely a pretty clear Day One tell. I'll reveal it after the RVS.I may have missed this, but have you revealed this yet?
What do you think would clue you in to there being a cult?
These are two separate possibilities. You could be scum, AND Max could be overreacting to a minor tell. It is totally possible that both claims are correct- they are NOT mutually exclusive.
If Max is right for the wrong reasons, then again, both arguments can be correct. Don't try to set them up as opposites when they are not.A fair point given my specific wording. Not actually being scum, I had already discounted that possibility, but I can't expect you to take that on faith. A clearer way of formulating it is: Max claims that my actions thus far have been enough to mark me out as scum. I know this is incorrect, but I'd much rather players appraise his arguments and come to the rational conclusion on their own.
So why did you wait until now to change your vote if your vote on Persus13 was pretty much dead weight when you decided that the time was right to focus everybody's attention on Nerjin and Max White?Well I still wanted to hear Persus's response. Perhaps weak pressure voting is a bogus strategy and shouldn't be encouraged, still if I do have such a vote it doesn't do to undermine it by switching it before I even get a response. If Persus had evaded or given a more suspicious response I'd have kept the vote on him and pursued it further.
Why Nerjin, anyway? Suspecting him because he hasn't done his lip service to asking everybody questions strikes me as a weak reason for a vote.No it's more than that. I wouldn't care if he didn't ask random/hypothetical questions at the beginning of the game. Functionally, that stuff is mostly just to get people posting. No it's more than that, he hasn't actively engaged more than three people in the entire game. I counted. He's playing almost completely passively, answering questions and pursuing a single case. Also, as I will go on to explain to Nerjin below, this behaviour fits completely with his recent scum-meta and is completely contrary to his recent town-meta.
And in the very post you quote me giving reasons on other suspects like Tiruin or Nerjin who I would easily vote if I wasn't particular to Imp right now.I just don't buy your case against Imp. She mistakes the game for a Bastard and harmlessly pursues that line until she's proven mistaken and then she immediately switches to engaging everyone with questions and playing the game as normal. In what way is that a scum-tell?
Is it tunneling if I pursue the person who seems scummiest to me? Do I have to carry the whole game? Every other player is questioning everyone else. Me re-asking the same question would accomplish nothing more than inflating posts. Wall'o'texts aren't legible as a rule. I'm paying attention to everything everyone is saying and I do have a few suspicions and a moderately decent case for another player outside Max. But it's just that: Moderately decent. I don't feel that it's strong enough to merit mention. But as a whole: Yes, I do try to stick where I need to in order to not gum up the works of the game. No, tunneling [when it IS tunneling] is not helpful.I just don't believe you. I took a moment to reflect and I thought, maybe Nerjin is really just quite lazy about scumhunting. There are such players (*cough* Ottofar *cough*). So I looked back at some of your previous games.
I'm glad I'm back too. At the moment I'd vote Max, but until someone answers my questions on playstyle I'm going to wait. I'm doing what I normally do, look for things I find confusing or wrong and ask questions on them or just point them out. This sometimes gives me good reads. Is being defensive, attacking someone defending you, and analyzing people asking questions normal for you?I looked back and didn't spot a question on play-style, where did I miss it? Being defensive is very normal for me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.msg4480133#msg4480133); attacking players that are suspicious is good play and you should never be swayed by the fact that they're defending you: buddying is the oldest trick in the book of scum; analysis is mostly how I form reads: players rarely make fatal slips, but the shape of their over-all play can give them away. People don't tend to like my analysis and it's nowhere near as infallible as I'd like but I believe I hone in on more relevant factors with every game. Scum, third-parties and poor town players generally keep a low profile and don't press many cases, good town players genuinely suspect everyone and press a lot of cases. I was able to use this fact to 100% identify who was town (if not who was scum) in the recent Witches game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.msg4636858#msg4636858).
Chiefly what I was just saying, but more specifically, players who don't follow up on the answers to their Day 1 questions are often scum or third party just going through the motions. Hopefully, if I get the time, I'll try and chase up whether everyone chased up.I think there is definitely a pretty clear Day One tell. I'll reveal it after the RVS.I may have missed this, but have you revealed this yet?
Seeing someone's roleflip as a Cult-Scum type is the clearest clue I can imagine now.Detecting a cult is much easier if you're scum, because you can rule out your fellows and can more clearly watch for patterns of tacit collusion in voting (cult members typically won't bus each other and will tend to enable the lynching of non-cultists), but regardless of alignment, looking for teams in the voting over the course of the game is hard given the unstable/growing membership of a cult. I'll give it a bit more thought.
[...]
What are your thoughts on how to detect a Cult?
PersusI asked the same questions on playstyle in that very post, and I asked Toaster and Jim. Would you compare your analysis to sabremetrics in baseball? (Just I haven't really seen something like that before)I'm glad I'm back too. At the moment I'd vote Max, but until someone answers my questions on playstyle I'm going to wait. I'm doing what I normally do, look for things I find confusing or wrong and ask questions on them or just point them out. This sometimes gives me good reads. Is being defensive, attacking someone defending you, and analyzing people asking questions normal for you?I looked back and didn't spot a question on play-style, where did I miss it? Being defensive is very normal for me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.msg4480133#msg4480133); attacking players that are suspicious is good play and you should never be swayed by the fact that they're defending you: buddying is the oldest trick in the book of scum; analysis is mostly how I form reads: players rarely make fatal slips, but the shape of their over-all play can give them away. People don't tend to like my analysis and it's nowhere near as infallible as I'd like but I believe I hone in on more relevant factors with every game. Scum, third-parties and poor town players generally keep a low profile and don't press many cases, good town players genuinely suspect everyone and press a lot of cases. I was able to use this fact to 100% identify who was town (if not who was scum) in the recent Witches game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.msg4636858#msg4636858).
Toonyman:What?? What did I miss??I would appreciate an answer to my question instead of a dodge. None-the-less, I will discuss the garbage you dish out in lieu of an answer, this time.True enough, I can't recall seeing a player mistake a typical game for a bastard but it's probably happened. Although Imp is voting me now for some reason...?@Imp:...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
I could say the same for myself as I don't see myself as skilled at all given...my whole history on this board.
I do not lack self-esteem. Nor am I unable to analyze my own experiences. You have utterly failed to ask, or notice when it was previously mentioned, which it partially was in this thread. This is my second Mafia game in any format. My first is the currently unfinished Beginner's Mafia on this forum. The next closest game I've ever played to Mafia is 'heads up 7 up' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Up_(game)) which I last played around 30 years ago - it's a very distant cousin which has almost nothing in common with Mafia. I first noticed Mafia existed about three months ago, and did not start to try and learn its rules until the recent BM started, about a month ago.You don't post like a newbie player, at all...
You have no time for any Scumhunting, yet. This game has extension limits; the maximum possible D extension ends Thursday, the day before your 'best possible time' to actually be able to focus on the game.I realized that today. I should be okay Thursday evening but yeah that doesn't really give time since the day would be ending before then.
However, you see perfectly fit to pick a single detail, give a single reason, and park your vote. You ask no questions about my Scumminess, one of the few 'lessons' that was 'taught' in my not-yet-over first BM - you ask questions and actively scumhunt. Not you - to you I'm Scum because you (don't even bother to really) say so. You have no interest in verifying anything; you brush aside questions from multiple people (not myself) about your vote and its stated reason, one asking you repeatedly about your reasoning. When I ask you for the basis of your thinking, you refuse to give it, instead providing a two-part single sentence of drivel, one part flailing to attempt an attack at my self-esteem, the second part saying that your impressions make me seem competent or at least proactive.I was never attacking your self-esteem. I was wondering whether you'd admit to being inexperienced or admit to acting oddly (aka possible scum suspect), but instead I get...yeah acting oddly would be a good way to put it. Hence the vote!
Garbage. I -asked- for the basis of your belief that I was too skilled a player to make what you consider to be that sort of mistake.I've answered this!!
To my limited experience and understanding, your behavior looks quite textbook Scumlike. Will you waste more effort on defending yourself than you have so far on your incredibly absent Scumhunting? That would be rather textbook Scumlike too from what I've read.So you're drawing the inexperienced card now?
Why Nerjin, anyway? Suspecting him because he hasn't done his lip service to asking everybody questions strikes me as a weak reason for a vote.No it's more than that. I wouldn't care if he didn't ask random/hypothetical questions at the beginning of the game. Functionally, that stuff is mostly just to get people posting. No it's more than that, he hasn't actively engaged more than three people in the entire game. I counted. He's playing almost completely passively, answering questions and pursuing a single case. Also, as I will go on to explain to Nerjin below, this behaviour fits completely with his recent scum-meta and is completely contrary to his recent town-meta.
NerjinIs it tunneling if I pursue the person who seems scummiest to me? Do I have to carry the whole game? Every other player is questioning everyone else. Me re-asking the same question would accomplish nothing more than inflating posts. Wall'o'texts aren't legible as a rule. I'm paying attention to everything everyone is saying and I do have a few suspicions and a moderately decent case for another player outside Max. But it's just that: Moderately decent. I don't feel that it's strong enough to merit mention. But as a whole: Yes, I do try to stick where I need to in order to not gum up the works of the game. No, tunneling [when it IS tunneling] is not helpful.I just don't believe you. I took a moment to reflect and I thought, maybe Nerjin is really just quite lazy about scumhunting. There are such players (*cough* Ottofar *cough*). So I looked back at some of your previous games.
The last game you played town in (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4432424#msg4432424) you asked everyone questions in your first post. There were eight other players, and yet you have trouble when there are just two more? Well, thought I, what does Nerjin look like when he played scum, so I looked (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125058.msg4286878#msg4286878) and lo and behold, in your first post you passively answer the questions posed to you and then press a single question.
Okay, maybe that was just coincidence, thought I, so I looked at another recent game where you played town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4047104#msg4047104) and again there are eight other players and again you ask everyone questions. Hmm. Well, let's see how you play as scum in yet another game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=120520.msg3965870#msg3965870). Surprise surprise, your first post is passive answering of questions and the pressing of a single case.
This all isn't really very surprising: in general scum struggle to earnestly scumhunt and prefer to passively react. I've detailed all this elsewhere (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.0). Your whole play this game is screaming scum-Nerjin and the only way I'm going to be convinced otherwise is if you start upping your game and demonstrating that you've actually examined all the players and are genuinely hunting scum.
And yes, Nerjin, each town player does have to try to carry the game: they cannot rely on any one of their fellows doing it for them.
Could you even give me a considered assessment of scumminess of all the other players?As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.
Also, what pro-town reason do you have for not revealing your reads?
So it's late D1, and you only have one suspect? Interesting, because that's pretty weaksauce. I'd like to see at least two more names of people you suspect.It is pretty weak-sauce. I do have other suspects. One person, as mentioned, I have a moderately decent case on. Nothing to bring up because it's along the lines of "This seems scummy, but I also feel that it could just as easily be poor play." and the other is "Hm... I think something is up here."
I'll share their names when I have cases that bare sharing. If you MUST know the two are NQT and Imp. I won't go any further on them right now because, as I've said, my cases aren't particularly strong on them.
Perhaps, has it occured to you, I find dealing with so many people, people who are already active, redundant?
Nerjin, I'm confused and I hope you can help me understand better.
From what I understand of your case against Max White, he's attacking NQT and badly; specifically for the wrong reasons, also absolutely drilling on NQT, and primarily just attacking NQT. Is that the whole of your reasoning that he is likely Scum? If there are other factors in your case, would you please state them now if you haven't before? If you've stated them before, even unclearly, would you please point out the links? I've tried to find and understand and if it's more than what I've listed above, I missed it.
Could you even give me a considered assessment of scumminess of all the other players?As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.Also, what pro-town reason do you have for not revealing your reads?
I notice that you ignore that question in favor of responding to this:
Am I understanding right? You say to NQT that you won't answer about your other suspicions. He asks you for a pro-town reason why not, which you also don't answer, but when Toaster asks you for at least two more people you suspect, you do answer, naming two people... one of them being NQT who you have spent a lot of time defending - not attacking his attacker over bad attacks - but actually outright defending with a great many of your sentences and in conversations with multiple people, not just his drilling attacker.
Yet you still give no reasons. You say "One person, as mentioned, I have a moderately decent case on." Is that one person Max White? Or is it one of either NQT/Imp? It seems extremely easy to give names of people you say you are suspicious of when pressed, but seems much harder to give context supporting that suspicion, which you give unasked-for reasons for not providing,
I'm asking you to help me understand because it looks to me like you're kinda jerking all around, almost as if you were an ice cube flung into a deep fat frier. I'm hearing a lot of noise and seeing a lot of steam but I'm not understanding at all 'what's cooking', so to speak.
Why wouldn't you answer NQT's question about 'all players', even by saying 'I'll talk about two, but not all', instead saying "No. I think I'll keep that information to myself"? Why, a very short time later, when Toaster asks you to name at least two, do you indeed name two, while insisting (unasked) that you won't explain why? What happened to "No. I think I'll keep that information to myself"? Why are you changing your stance, intention, and answers so fluidly and self-contradictorily?
Your most current post looks like pure defense to me - you mock NQT, then say that Meta can change and has many factors, then state, very clearly and directly... err, no, with uncertainty and not one but two qualifiers, which I'm going to bold in this quote:Perhaps, has it occured to you, I find dealing with so many people, people who are already active, redundant?
Redundant means unnecessary, because it's already happening. If that's your reason, then you must be getting tons of useful information from watching others interact with others. That does sound possible to me. But if you were, then you'd have a very easy time answering questions like "Could you even give me a considered assessment of scumminess of all the other players?" and would indeed be able to pick out easily discussed things that would less or not need to be hidden for whatever reason you find to "No. I think I'll keep [the rest of] that information to myself." But you're not doing that. So, if that's not your reason, why not give your reason? Why give a 'perhaps' reason that 'perhaps' isn't true?
What are you doing? Can you help me understand you/your play/your reasoning?
@Jim Groovester - What do you think is suspicious about Persus asking me if I would unvote NQT? I'd not posted for a while, he could've thought I wasn't gonna unvote or was undesicive.Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?
I don't know how someone asking another person a question could be scumtell for both of them. Especially if it happened nine pages ago and nothing else particularly suspicious happened.
No. I do not make RVS votes, you misinterpret and I am severely lacking the time and energy to be more coherent. I find Imp scummy for being verbose and misleading and try to figure out what they are even saying to me in this WoT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4724948#msg4724948). And in the very post you quote me giving reasons on other suspects like Tiruin or Nerjin who I would easily vote if I wasn't particular to Imp right now.
It is pretty weak-sauce. I do have other suspects. One person, as mentioned, I have a moderately decent case on. Nothing to bring up because it's along the lines of "This seems scummy, but I also feel that it could just as easily be poor play." and the other is "Hm... I think something is up here."
I'll share their names when I have cases that bare sharing. If you MUST know the two are NQT and Imp. I won't go any further on them right now because, as I've said, my cases aren't particularly strong on them.
I'm going to take this part bit by bit to make it easier. I refuse to mention EVERYONE at this point or to elaborate on fetal stage cases. Toaster just asked me to point out who I'm most suspicious of. Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.
ToasterThese are two separate possibilities. You could be scum, AND Max could be overreacting to a minor tell. It is totally possible that both claims are correct- they are NOT mutually exclusive.If Max is right for the wrong reasons, then again, both arguments can be correct. Don't try to set them up as opposites when they are not.A fair point given my specific wording. Not actually being scum, I had already discounted that possibility, but I can't expect you to take that on faith. A clearer way of formulating it is: Max claims that my actions thus far have been enough to mark me out as scum. I know this is incorrect, but I'd much rather players appraise his arguments and come to the rational conclusion on their own.
You're voting Toony and I agree his case on Imp is weak. Do you think other people should follow your vote? (I only ask because Day one often ends with the vote split between half a dozen candidates, a situation that makes it easy for a mislynch to occur.)
...You're basing this on which part exactly? A holistic poke on Nerjin's actions?I'm going to take this part bit by bit to make it easier. I refuse to mention EVERYONE at this point or to elaborate on fetal stage cases. Toaster just asked me to point out who I'm most suspicious of. Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.
What if I say I don't believe that, and instead say you're pointing fingers with nothing to back it up? I think you're doing that, Nerjin.
Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.D: Calm down!
...Buddying suspicion + a vote? Buddying in this scenario is that much of a tell to place your vote on?@Jim Groovester - What do you think is suspicious about Persus asking me if I would unvote NQT? I'd not posted for a while, he could've thought I wasn't gonna unvote or was undesicive.Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?
I don't know how someone asking another person a question could be scumtell for both of them. Especially if it happened nine pages ago and nothing else particularly suspicious happened.
And for your information, looking back on statements after water's been under the bridge is a perfectly town thing to do. I believe Toaster's #1 is looking back on promises that weren't fulfilled. And scum have other ways to communicate.
NQT: Nerjin seems to be walking straight into your number 1 scumtell fully aware of that. That make you more or less sure of how scummy he is?
Woah! No editing posts!Why?
I had to post in a hurry, so I edited with more time.
Imp: Sorry if I misaddressed you or something along the lines of lacking respect! D:
...Errm, it's more of a cultural thing but I feel like..well, since I..get the idea that you're 30+ or such..I just don't want any disrespect to follow if I did something...It's really happy-ing to see that you look up to me as a mentor..
Totally off-Mafia.
You said I'd made a mistake, I acknowledged the mistake and then made a comment about the early game in general. Still failing to see how this makes me scum...I'm getting tired of this little strawman that you keep knocking down that I'm voting you because you made that single comment early game. Go see that multi point explanation I gave to Jim, I'm not calling you scum for that single reply, I'm calling you scum because when questioned on it you got less and less consistent in why you were providing this context (From you are bad to everybody is bad to you are bad), you decided that it was better to just clarify again rather than actually answer a question, and finally you assumed that I thought you were scum because of my questions, thus asking me to vote you (Paranoid behavior).
I don't see anything wrong with my answer. Obviously I don't think you should ignore what you take to be scumtells and so I took that part of your question to be rhetorical. Did you actually want me to spell that out?Yea, that is why I specifically asked it. Heck I even reworded it for you just in case.
You mischaracterise what I'm doing. You explicitly stated that I am scum. I deny this. I fail to see how we can both be right about this! I'm trying to get town to appraise your arguments and make a decision. I don't think they should lynch you if they disagree with you: I think you're wrong about me but you're hardly the scummiest player.Try rereading exactly what I said but instead of thinking 'we' means you and I, try to keep the context of the statement in mind and realize I was talking about Nerjin and myself. I pointed out that you were trying to make it seem like between us either I was correct or Nerjin was, and that 'we' (Nerjin and myself) could still both be wrong.
As well as myself, who else do you have a read on?To some degree everybody, with the exception of Toony who is somewhat inactive right now, but apparently for meta reasons. I really wish he was here, but things are what they are.
How much focus, over the last three days or so, would you say you have put into finding Scum other than notquitethere? You have said that he is Scum; can you explain your reasoning for your ongoing Scumhunting of him without compromising your purpose?I'm not sure how to answer that question... Does focus come in a finite supply?
Did you misread Nerjin's words of "very little evidence" as "very little experience"? If not, where did Nerjin say this?Yes, you are correct. I totally misread his comment.
What do you make of reply number 107? I would like it but I apparently am unable to link to specific posts right now..NQT bought it up to try and justify having an especially good wincon.
This is false.
He just said he was optimistic and that his wincon wasn't impossible. How is that "an especially good wincon?"He also listed several other wincons he had in the past claiming they were unwinnable, including a lot of town roles. If in a single post he is willing to say he has a winnable condition, and in the same post he lists several town roles, including some cop roles that are apparently unwinnable, it stands to reason he has a better wincon than then a town player, even one with a good ability.
I disagree. NQT has enough experience to know what he's getting in to by risking a "Not To Be Done" town maneuver. Sure, there are some terrible, terrible things to do (worst offender that comes to mind is a non-cop townie fakeclaiming a guilty inspect to push his agenda) but there are some lesser things (like this) that could be worth a risk. That said, I don't even see his claim as a bad thing in the first place.
Attacking him because he dares ignore the "norm" is a poor reason. In fact, what exactly is your case on him? Could I get it in a concise and neat package, because it's really murky.How concise do you want it?
Are you serious right now? How many players are there? Think about that for a second. Should I pursue the person I think is most scummy OR should I go after EVERYONE at once? I'm going to let you think about that for a while. As for wanting my assessment of the scumminess of all the other players... No. I think I'll keep that information to myself.And am I to assume that means me? Are you perusing? Are you questioning? Are you countering? Are you engaging in discussion?
Playing dumb is a colloquiallism for pretending not to know something "No officer, I never saw three men in hoodies outside my neighbors window." I was saying Playing Dumb as in: Playing like an idiot. I realized that after the first post, clarified that in the second post [right after that bold you put there], and then reiterated it in the third.So you think NQT is pretending to not know something as an act of dishonesty, and you don't question him?
You accused him of being scummy for jumping in to question you about your question to Tiruin. What should NQT have done in response to this?I pointed out that it was a scummy thing to do, for sure, but I didn't accuse him of being scum at that point.
I noticed you started debating your idea too strongly and fast for it to be just a simple argument, and fighting too much for it (at least, in my opinion). That is what I call "getting defensive".This is how I read your statement:
...
What do you think? Is this not enough evidence? Or is it weak?
I want to see your side.
On that note: your vote is on Toony. Several other players believe his vote on you is generally weak, but why does that make him more likely scum than any other player?
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?The role that let's me win without having to do anything.
@Max White:ToonyUnfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend. Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.
@Imp:If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
A lack of a read is not a scumtell or a towntell. You can say they're lurking I guess.
Oh right, if you expect anything better from me you would be good and extend.5) Either didn't bother to check the game's rules about extension limits (as he later indirectly claims) or just doesn't care. Just not caring could explain not bothering to check and isn't contradicted by any evident care or effort in any other part of his play this game. Toony's here to 'win easy, if he can', just like he said in his first post. Game can work around him, players can wait on him. This would be acceptable to me, if Toony had been saying 'I can't play yet, I can't give this game what it deserves yet'. Instead, he keeps his focus on being here to 'win easy, if he can' - thus his illusion of scumhunting.
Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.No follow up, no examination, nothing but a vote with a statement.
@Cmega3:Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is a bandwagon vote.
You are acting rather weird.
NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least. I doubt both are scum of some sort.To me each of these challenges barely qualify as scumhunting, especially without follow up, but I am trying to identify everything that even hints of Scumhunting in Toony's posts.
When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions. I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody). Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.This quick, weak, unsupported list of suspects looks thrown together in great haste to me. Grabbed helter skelter, to make it look like he's scumhunting, when a more true answer seems to be along the lines of "I don't have time for this, I haven't been following it; no chance I'll follow up on this either".
@Cmega3:This is kind of scum hunting. I'm not sure how much 'better' means. All better? It's not followed up on (yet), so apparently 'better' is good enough for now.Oh pish-posh. I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there. You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.@Cmega3:The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.Max white, could you please calm down a bit?This is a bandwagon vote.
You are acting rather weird.
You don't post like a newbie player, at all...
...
So you're drawing the inexperienced card now?
@Jim Groove:
Why are Cmega3 and Persus13 scum buddies again? Also you seem pretty relaxed, are you enjoying yourself?
ImpHow much focus, over the last three days or so, would you say you have put into finding Scum other than notquitethere? You have said that he is Scum; can you explain your reasoning for your ongoing Scumhunting of him without compromising your purpose?I'm not sure how to answer that question... Does focus come in a finite supply?
I think he is scum, my purpose is to lynch scum, as such as things are right now, my purpose is to lynch NQT.
Would you compare your analysis to sabremetrics in baseball? (Just I haven't really seen something like that before)That's not a bad comparison. I try to ascertain what behavioural indicators really are genuine scum or town indicators and then look for these in play. I also like to look at player interactions and patterns of voting. My analytical approach to mafia has paid dividends in the past, but I don't think it's been taken up by anyone else. What's your impression?
NQT: Nerjin seems to be walking straight into your number 1 scumtell fully aware of that. That make you more or less sure of how scummy he is?I don't believe Nerjin's excuses but he might just be lazy. If he comes out with some insightful reads and sound reasons for his lynch-pick then I'll have to reassess my opinion.
Oh no! Has NQT used his superior intellect to pierce my brilliant scheme!?Resorting to sarcasm. Noted.
Hark! I admit it! I am scum!NQT's Log, Day 1: Nerjin breaks down and claims scum. Could this be easier than anticipated?
Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it together. Tis a sad day for-... Wait a second. Meta can change and has many factors. It's been over a month since I last played mafia. So do you have an actual in-game reason or just old stuff? Perhaps, has it occured to you, I find dealing with so many people, people who are already active, redundant?The thing is, I'm not voting you for purely meta reasons, the meta reasons just rule out the possibility that you're incapable of questioning players when playing as town. My in-game reason is still the same: you're behaviour follows the model pattern of a scum-player (little active interaction with others, passive question answering, refusal to commit to making judgements on others). I'm not waiting for you to give me a knock-down counterargument, I'm waiting for you to start playing like town.
Also the mere fact that you say that puts me into a bad position doesn't it? If I continue doing what I've been doing you will say "Look! Nerjin is being lazy! HE'S SCUM!!!" If I do what you say you will say "Look! Nerjin only does work when told to! HE'S SCUM!!!"Hardly. Why would I want to trap another player, who may actually be town, into an undefendable position? You might still yet turn out to be lazy town. So, some well considered reflections on your fellow players would go along way to alleviating my suspicions.
Do you see a lack of people working on other players? I sure don't. If no one was talking to anyone else, as is not the case, I'd be more inclined to question everyone with my utmost skill. However it looks like others are being questioned well enough without me. We have 10 people posting very actively. Having me throw walls of text at people I'm not particularly focused on just throws out chaff.So you're convinced your fellow players are asking the right kinds of questions, huh? I have had zero indication from you that you've even formed a read on more than three players.
The one person is Notquitethere. As I just explained I won't give out fetal stage cases.I'm all ears: let's hear the accusation. You've had time enough to let the case gestate.
Just going to stop you right there for a second. @NQT, it'd appear I missed this question. My reason for not pointing out my cases at this time is that they are all too weak to be considered much of anything. If I tip my hand too early people will realize what I'm watching for and will go out of their way to avoid those things. People behave differently when they know they're being observed.Huh, maybe your cases wouldn't be so weak if you'd actually pressed people on matters that you find suspicious. I mean, there must have been such matters if you have fetal-stage cases. But you'd like players to continue making mistakes so you can swoop down on them when they've sufficiently incriminated themselves, right? So we can expect more full reads from you at the end of the day then?
Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.Also, you're not the Batman. Passive non-accusatory play isn't striking fear into anyone, it just makes you look like scum.
NQTUh... I think meant to direct this at Nerjin.Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.D: Calm down!
This was addressed to Toaster right? Why attack the person (I get it could be anger but I'm asking to be sure) instead of asking the reason behind the vote?
My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now. Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.Were you referring to your prior vote on Toony or your new vote on Nerjin?
I'm getting tired of this little strawman that you keep knocking down that I'm voting you because you made that single comment early game.We really do keep talking at cross-purposes! I know you're not voting me over my question about your question to Tiruin before she'd replied. Your voting me over my later responses. We're on the same page, I understand your case, I just think it doesn't hold up.
Now that I have finally got a reply from you, if you think it doesn't make any difference weather you are playing well or not, what sort of a defense if claiming you aren't playing well? Why make that claim if you yourself think it is irrelevant?Look Max, you'd have a very different sort of case if I'd have claimed that I was playing perfectly and your initial queries were completely unjustified. Thus, it's highly relevant that I admitted that I don't always play well. This doesn't mean I think you should let me off of scum-slips or what-have-you, but it does mean that I acknowledge my own poor play when I spot it.
'Everybody' huh. But who specifically. Could you even name three other players that have done a scummy thing?QuoteAs well as myself, who else do you have a read on?To some degree everybody, with the exception of Toony who is somewhat inactive right now, but apparently for meta reasons. I really wish he was here, but things are what they are.
What?? What did I miss??
I think Imp is too good a player to make that errorWhat are you basing this belief upon?
You don't post like a newbie player, at all...So? And? What about it? Have you ever met a newbie who was a mature adult? Any newbies who came to the game already having an understanding of logic and verbal sparring? Maybe any who have considerable experience working as a manager? How about newbies who already know a great deal about how to handle pressure, both receiving and giving? Maybe any who have had to deal with catching real life thieves or had to protect themselves and others from sexual predators? (don't think it relates? Talk about people motivated towards hiding intention and possessing hostile intent).
I was wondering whether you'd admit to being inexperienced or admit to acting oddly (aka possible scum suspect), but instead I get...yeah acting oddly would be a good way to put it. Hence the vote!
...
So you're drawing the inexperienced card now?
Also, I am scum-hunting. The best a person can when they have two mid-terms back to back in oh, under 24 hours at this point. I want to take the egotistical horse and go "be glad I'm even posting substance!".
[Lots of reasons Toony isn't town aligned]
Hark! I admit it! I am scum!NQT's Log, Day 1: Nerjin breaks down and claims scum. Could this be easier than anticipated?
...How can you not see where you were going with this if you were the one who caused it in the first place!? What kind of handwave gesture is that?
I can't even get where you gleaned the last statement. The questions I asked which you apparently intentionally skip over now become discarded for..something unconnected, and this quotation out of nowhere seems like something nice to append.
What. Caz.
On that mark, your list has a few curious bits in it for an 'overview'.Yes... that is how I see them. If I just put a list of names with "scum" or "town" next to them it would mean nothing. You have to have reasons behind your arguments.QuotelistWant me to explain myself? If I had two votes, one would be you on the pretense of suspicion--check back and see for yourself and the other would be on Cmega because of the flippancy with how he acts, and the total ignorance he moves on with. Foremost being an intentional breach of logic given everything he said, with lacking address of those questioning him (and the implied rudeness.)
An overview would contain your reads on people--I see just how you see them, but how you mark specific people as scum/town while the rest are with opinions and sidecommentary. What is your view on them?
Please note the bolded portions:re: @Tiruin - You've changed your vote at least 3 or 4 times, as soon as something looks suspicious to you. Just waiting to see if someone will join you on voting them. Heck, you voted for me when I called you out on being reactionary. I suspect you'll stop on whatever lynch is easiest.
@Me: Where is the shiftiness? Outline. Defend that accusation. ALSO I'M FEMALE IF YOU DIDN'T GET THE HINT.
@Persus: Expound on the strange action. Correlate.
@Cmega: Opinion of him. Relate that opinion to scumminess and your chosen vote-target.
@Imp: ...You just seem to be wanting to give a snide remark of her there. If High Activity is the only mark, why don't others surpassing your own post count get the same note? Is that the only thing which gives a town point?
@Max: Seemingly contradictory. How is exaggerating akin to actively scumhunting in that context? Reword if misunderstood.
Any particular reads you want to expound on? Because it mostly seems commentary there.
Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?That's surprisingly useless information. Do you think it was a good use of your time?
And I mainly learned you consider newbs a nuisance and would prefer it if we stuck to BM.
If NQT is an important and got lynched accidentally because of that then there would be major problems.Why are you so worried that NQT is important? Know something we don't?
Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?Too little, too late.
Hark! I admit it! I am scum! Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it togetherYeah, you're not threatened by what's happening at all. I was considering changing my vote to Persus, but I think I'll stick on you for now.
My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now. Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.We don't have much time left. Are you planning on presenting your case before the day's end?
Caz— you still about? Got some current cases? Day's drawing to a close.I am here! Should be able to respond a bit throughout today - was busy yesterday.
Trying to seem reasonable so people will think you're town? If he was making these arguments against someone else, would you be convinced and lynch yourself? (Assuming you weren't you, of course.)Max White – has been very active in scumhunting, but could be exaggerating his arguments against NQT for an easy lynch.I'd contest this point: he's been very active in pursuing a case against me, but had yet to converse with all players in the game as of yesterday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4722255#msg4722255).
4)"They're" lurking? Players who can't read Toony are lurking, according to Toony? Toony is so uncomfortable with his own behavior, so arrogant, so selfish, that he can't even answer "I'm lurking, I guess". Guess? Further evasion, deflection, deceit.I took this to mean "If you can't get a read on someone, it's usually because they're lurking." Not the other way around. I do find fault with Toony's lack of input so far, but lurking isn't enough to warrant a lynch D1, imo. Stick to who is scummy. If Toony fails to participate on D2 (as he promised), we can lynch him then.
Looks like Caz has requested another extension, I'll add my extend too. I don't overly care if we extend further or not, but if we get the time I expect we'll use it, and that seems better rather than worse to me.Er, I was supporting the first extend. Do we really need two at this point? If we get close to day's end with a nolynch, I'll support it.
Trying to seem reasonable so people will think you're town?What kind of question is that? I'm seeming reasonable because I am reasonable. What would you expect town to do?
If he was making these arguments against someone else, would you be convinced and lynch yourself? (Assuming you weren't you, of course.)No, as I don't consider defensiveness to be a scumtell. No one else appears convinced either. What do you think?
Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?
This is the only thing you can think of to ask? What do you care whether Cmega3 unvotes notquitethere?
Here, I've got one for you. What do you make of this vote?
Persus13.
I do not make RVS votes, you misinterpret and I am severely lacking the time and energy to be more coherent. I find Imp scummy for being verbose and misleading and try to figure out what they are even saying to me in this WoT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4724948#msg4724948). And in the very post you quote me giving reasons on other suspects like Tiruin or Nerjin who I would easily vote if I wasn't particular to Imp right now.For the most part he seems to legitimately believe that Imp is being too verbose to be town. I don’t agree with that BUT he also does seem rather strapped for time so I’m going to go with Null on him for now. I’m hoping he comes back soon though…
NerjinHark! I admit it! I am scum! Your vote resting upon me for purely meta reasons that CAN NEVER CHANGE are 100% accurate. I knew only your experience and intellect could piece it togetherYeah, you're not threatened by what's happening at all. I was considering changing my vote to Persus, but I think I'll stick on you for now.
@ToonyMan - Do you think Mafia pushing town to lynch another Mafia member a good idea if it can improve odds of success? If so, what ocations could it be used on?I don't think bussing is a very good idea. I remember an older game from this year where Toaster bussed I think and it just hurt the mafia team. I think the distancing you get from bussing isn't worth it unless you're pulling a big gamble.
Unlimited Words WorkYou know, with this amount of effort I have a harder time believing your mafia. Your suspect is wrong, but you seem genuine on your attack, the most convincing bit is probably here for me:
5) Either didn't bother to check the game's rules about extension limits (as he later indirectly claims) or just doesn't care. Just not caring could explain not bothering to check and isn't contradicted by any evident care or effort in any other part of his play this game. Toony's here to 'win easy, if he can', just like he said in his first post. Game can work around him, players can wait on him. This would be acceptable to me, if Toony had been saying 'I can't play yet, I can't give this game what it deserves yet'. Instead, he keeps his focus on being here to 'win easy, if he can' - thus his illusion of scumhunting.Which is tricky word play, but I should be more careful with what I say.
Toony— I know you're very busy right now, but could you briefly explain why Jim is a good target right now?He hasn't been pressured at all for most of the day. Since nobody had the incentive to I'll go into unexplored territory myself. He also seemed pushy on me attacking Cmega3 more, so I'd like to learn in further detail why him and Persus13 are scum buddies.
What kind of question is that? I'm seeming reasonable because I am reasonable. What would you expect town to do?It just seems like you'd be more genuinely annoyed with someone trying to convince others that you should be lynched. Yet you're defending his play as if you have no problems with it.
If he was making these arguments against someone else, would you be convinced and lynch yourself? (Assuming you weren't you, of course.)No, as I don't consider defensiveness to be a scumtell. No one else appears convinced either. What do you think?
Nerjin:Uhm... Not sure what to make of this.
Lazy lazy bastard. Doesn’t seem to have put as much effort into it as he could though I’m pretty sure he’s town. I lied a bit when I said I’d give out pieces of information on everyone. Make that everyone-1. Also apparently confuses BYOR12 with this game in which there is quite a bit less than twenty quadrillion players.
Makes me wonder something: Why were you considering changing your vote and is me not panicking really a good enough reason to keep it on myself?I want to make the best use of my vote. Persus was starting to look more scummy than you in the last few pages, but this sarcastic "You've found me out! I'm scum!" is enough to put the bead on you again. I find it a desperate joke to convince others of your towny-ness. "Hey look guys! I claimed scum! I'm obviously not, right? Ha ha!"
Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.
@Toaster: I'd like to apologize for what I said last night. There was no reason to lash out at someone who had nothing to do with the problem.
Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.Also, you're not the Batman. Passive non-accusatory play isn't striking fear into anyone, it just makes you look like scum.
ToasterWhat do you make of reply number 107? I would like it but I apparently am unable to link to specific posts right now..NQT bought it up to try and justify having an especially good wincon.
This is false.QuoteHe just said he was optimistic and that his wincon wasn't impossible. How is that "an especially good wincon?"He also listed several other wincons he had in the past claiming they were unwinnable, including a lot of town roles. If in a single post he is willing to say he has a winnable condition, and in the same post he lists several town roles, including some cop roles that are apparently unwinnable, it stands to reason he has a better wincon than then a town player, even one with a good ability.
Yes, he goes on to correct himself that those are actually winnable, but the implication that his is especially good, being better than the average ones, is still there.
Jim said we where scum buddies. I was affected too. What I meant is someone asking another person if they are to do something doesn't mean both are scum.True but if I flip town you can argue that since I flipped town we weren't scumbuddies and therefore the buddying was accidental. Meanwhile, you get an easy mislynch and an extra day.
PersusIt seemed pretty suspicious to me as the one getting buddied, particularly as I couldn't really think why Cmega3 would ask the question as he isn't the one being voted at the moment. And his question about busing right above his question to Jim seems suspicious in context. Cmega may be a newb, but he hasn't really behaved the way I'd expect him to as a newb. His reasons seem odd even for newb reasons. And his concern at my question seemed too interested for town.Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?...Buddying suspicion + a vote? Buddying in this scenario is that much of a tell to place your vote on?
Do you really think Cmega is buddying you?I loled at your two comments to Nerjin. Also, yes I think Cmega's buddying me.
NQT's Log, Day 1: Nerjin breaks down and claims scum. Could this be easier than anticipated?Not knowing what I'm looking at creates fear. Fear creates mistakes in people who have something to hide.Also, you're not the Batman. Passive non-accusatory play isn't striking fear into anyone, it just makes you look like scum.
I suspect him but I'm not sure whether this behavior is normal for him or not. Is this normal behavior of Max? I believe you also ignored the section that says I'm not getting good reads on people.
I fail to see how that's a slip-up. Thanks for the tip though. By the same implication any insult thrown at me that I just ignore is true. And if I have a technical question I'm going to ask it and not care about how scummy I look.
I'm glad I'm back too. At the moment I'd vote Max, but until someone answers my questions on playstyle I'm going to wait.
PersusIt seemed pretty suspicious to me as the one getting buddied, particularly as I couldn't really think why Cmega3 would ask the question as he isn't the one being voted at the moment. And his question about busing right above his question to Jim seems suspicious in context. Cmega may be a newb, but he hasn't really behaved the way I'd expect him to as a newb. His reasons seem odd even for newb reasons. And his concern at my question seemed too interested for town.Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?...Buddying suspicion + a vote? Buddying in this scenario is that much of a tell to place your vote on?
Now - Why does my saying and asking about the words 'Jim is quiet' rate a double dose of profanity from you, when the first time those words were posted you were... completely quiet... in reaction to them?
Nerjin's meta analysis
We have 10 people posting very actively. Having me throw walls of text at people I'm not particularly focused on just throws out chaff.
@Jim Groove:
Why are Cmega3 and Persus13 scum buddies again? Also you seem pretty relaxed, are you enjoying yourself?
I was trying to start to know you guys. Not only good for now, but for later games I may play in. I thought it was implicit.
@Jim Groovester - What do you think is suspicious about Persus asking me if I would unvote NQT? I'd not posted for a while, he could've thought I wasn't gonna unvote or was undesicive.
I don't know how someone asking another person a question could be scumtell for both of them. Especially if it happened nine pages ago and nothing else particularly suspicious happened.
Well I can't tell if Max is being poor town or scum. But I think if he was scum he'd be less obvious about it. And the discussion between then and now is making almost everyone look scummy, so I'm not sure I know anymore.I suspect him but I'm not sure whether this behavior is normal for him or not. Is this normal behavior of Max? I believe you also ignored the section that says I'm not getting good reads on people.
So what?
You're going to let yourself get stopped because you don't know Max White's meta? You're new; you're not going to know a lot of people's meta before a good long while. In fact, while you're new, this is going to happen more often than not.
You still have to vote somebody.
I thought your accusation was ridiculous and like a troll accusation meant to get some guy to angrily yell at you. Which was why I didn't deny that fact. And I do deny it.I fail to see how that's a slip-up. Thanks for the tip though. By the same implication any insult thrown at me that I just ignore is true. And if I have a technical question I'm going to ask it and not care about how scummy I look.
It's a horrible slipup. I called you and Cmega3 scumbuddies. You did not deny this.
Recognition of a tactic is not an invalidation of its content.
I agree. I would probably have voted Max today if it weren't for Cmega being scummy.I'm glad I'm back too. At the moment I'd vote Max, but until someone answers my questions on playstyle I'm going to wait.
And what if you never find out whether this is typical for Max White or not?
Are you just going to sit around, paralyzed by it?
You can't sit on your hands forever. At some point you're going to have to decide on you're own whether you really mean it or not.
I see you saying that I told Cmega3 to unvote NQT and this is part of the reason I'm scum and deserve lyncing and me and Cmega are scum buddies. Suddenly, at the end of one of Cmega's posts, he asks you questions about why my question looked so suspicious. Cmega appears to be defending me for a question I asked him that was pretty aggressive and made two people think I'm scummy. This to me appears to be buddying or getting too comfortable with another player who they should think of as a possible scum, not confirmed town. If Cmega was scum, he could realize that buddying me when I currently am already accused of buddying Cmega and being on his scumteam would cause people's alarm bells to go off and cause other players to vote me, resulting in my lynch. When I flip town, Cmega can argue that he is town too since I'm not town and one of the major reasons he looked scummy was because of buddying accusations about me and I flipped town, therefore he isn't scummy and is town. This whole lynching of me D1 distracts from other members of the scumteam that may be currently in danger of being lynched (not saying that parts true) and so gives scum extra time.PersusIt seemed pretty suspicious to me as the one getting buddied, particularly as I couldn't really think why Cmega3 would ask the question as he isn't the one being voted at the moment. And his question about busing right above his question to Jim seems suspicious in context. Cmega may be a newb, but he hasn't really behaved the way I'd expect him to as a newb. His reasons seem odd even for newb reasons. And his concern at my question seemed too interested for town.Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?...Buddying suspicion + a vote? Buddying in this scenario is that much of a tell to place your vote on?
I think you need to elaborate further on this.
How was his question buddying?
How is he not acting like you'd expect him to?
Broad, hand-wavy arguments aren't convincing and they make it seem like you have reasons when you really don't.
Oh, then I clearly placed more value in this part of your case from your last post then I should've.@Jim Groove:
Why are Cmega3 and Persus13 scum buddies again? Also you seem pretty relaxed, are you enjoying yourself?
I accused Persus13 of being buddies with Cmega3 because Persus13 clarified, or reminded, or whatevered, Cmega3 that his uncolored unvote of NQT early in the game was not valid. It looked visibly like Persus13 was looking out for Cmega3, which I found odd and notable and seemed like evidence of collusion. I accused them of being buddies mostly to get a reaction out of Persus13.
I don't find the tell very valid, and it's not a significant part of my case on Persus13. I'm more or less convinced that Persus13 is scum because he has yet to vote anybody despite suspecting Max White.
Relaxed? I'm halfway to full-on swear mode. This game is resembling homework more than a little and I am losing patience.
PersusAnd I would totally agree with you on that. However its better than nothing. And while I didn't know what type of questions were good, it does seem to have gotten a conversation going.Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?That's surprisingly useless information. Do you think it was a good use of your time?
And I mainly learned you consider newbs a nuisance and would prefer it if we stuck to BM.
That was hypothetical. Notice the key use of an if at the start of the sentence. But I think someone getting lynched by accident because the Mod missed an unvote is bad in general. You can't really undo a lynch and it could at worst stop the game. And if I see something I'm confused by I ask a question to get unconfused.If NQT is an important and got lynched accidentally because of that then there would be major problems.Why are you so worried that NQT is important? Know something we don't?
For what?Why are you buddying me Cmega3? Why should you care so much about a question I asked? It won't have much effect on you and will have a big impact on me. Are you scum that thinks buddying a newbie town will get him lynched?Too little, too late.
Looks like Caz has requested another extension, I'll add my extend too. I don't overly care if we extend further or not, but if we get the time I expect we'll use it, and that seems better rather than worse to me.Er, I was supporting the first extend. Do we really need two at this point? If we get close to day's end with a nolynch, I'll support it.
@Tiruin:ToonyManIt's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better....And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?
Your accusation seems primarily that I am a survivor though, which is not true (I am not anti-town of any sort). Do you think I'm mafia or third-party, exactly?
He hasn't been pressured at all for most of the day. Since nobody had the incentive to I'll go into unexplored territory myself. He also seemed pushy on me attacking Cmega3 more, so I'd like to learn in further detail why him and Persus13 are scum buddies.
Yeah alright. Unvote Jim.I find it amusing that you FOS Tiruin for changing her votes so much when you do so also. I don't think changing your mind is a scum-tell, do you?
@Cmega3:
Your vote on Max White was poor and Persus13 seems to have retaliated against you. This seems fishy. What's your read on Persus13?
@Tiruin (FoS for emphasis):
What do you think of Caz? Why are you switching your vote so much?
It just seems like you'd be more genuinely annoyed with someone trying to convince others that you should be lynched. Yet you're defending his play as if you have no problems with it.The thing is, Max is not succeeding in convincing anyone. I still think that in general he reads more town than scum and I'm waiting for him to realise he's chasing a dead-end. I know from experience that not everyone that attacks you is necessarily scum.
[..]
It's hard to tell at this point, but it looks a bit like townvtown interaction to me.
He also listed several other wincons he had in the past claiming they were unwinnable, including a lot of town roles.It's worth pointing out that I quickly clarified that I didn't mean to imply that town roles were unwinnable, as Max admits:
Yes, he goes on to correct himself that those are actually winnable, but the implication that his is especially good, being better than the average ones, is still there.I wasn't trying to imply anything, I was trying to concretely state that I didn't have a bullshit 3rd party role and the game set-up wasn't overwhelmingly stacked against me. Also, of course I'm more confident: it's a fact that I'm a better player now than I was before.
Is there a right way and a wrong way to lurk, or just one way?A player can be absent with varying degrees of legitimacy. Toony has presented a legitimate reason not to post as much. I still think what he has done is moderately suspicious, but his patchy participation isn't. I think we should see how he performs as time goes on.
I don't know what you mean by the 'perhaps' cthing.
Hark! I admit it! I am scum!
I refuse to mention EVERYONE at this point or to elaborate on fetal stage cases.
...
As I just explained I won't give out fetal stage cases.
Well I'm gonna have to double post since getting this out seems somewhat important. I'll have reads and the like on everyone here in a bit.
What if I say I don't believe that, and instead say you're pointing fingers with nothing to back it up? I think you're doing that, Nerjin.
...
My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now. Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.
Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.
What do you think of Cmega and Persus?
If Toony had said 'Right, I've got this issue and I can't really play for a bit' (he did) and then not played for a bit, that's honest. He could have logged on, caught up on posts as he had time, asked questions if he had any, let us know he was following the thread a little or a lot, that's honest too.
Instead he weakly and poorly 'Scumhunts'. Yes, his target is me, but he asks no questions. When questioned about his stance on me, he disregards the questions and reaffirms his 'certainty' until he starts to recieve votes for his behavior, then he backs down and throws his vote elsewhere. Now he takes the time to appear to be working much harder at Scumhunting, and maybe he truly is now, which is a total shame because this is probably the time he most needs to put into his studies.
But he didn't have to fake Scumhunting at any point - we're still well inside the time when he said he didn't have time - he could have said 'I don't have time yet' and not done so; instead he decided to say a version of 'I don't have time, but I am doing it anyway', but despite saying this he wasn't but he did try to make the illusion - he decided to mislead instead of be honest.
Nerjin:
Do me the hugest favor ever in this game and only say what you mean from now on, okay? That would go miles towards helping me understand you, your thinking, and your intentions - and it probably won't make it harder for anyone else to understand those either. You appear to me to be walking boldly towards being the D1 lynch, head up and eyes open. I'm fine with that if you're Scum. I'm going to be annoyed -with you- if you be a mislynch in the making because boy, you are effectively saying 'pick me! pick me!'.
There's another thing that you're doing which is driving me crazy. Not 'I can't stand it, stop it stop it stop it' crazy, but the sort of crazy you get when you're a newbie and your Scummy senses are starting to grow in or something and they start to pick stuff up.
Explain this, please - At 09:17:59 pm your post includesI refuse to mention EVERYONE at this point or to elaborate on fetal stage cases.
...
As I just explained I won't give out fetal stage cases.
And then you start doing what less than 13 hours earlier you'd said again... not for the first time in the thread, but again!... that you refused to do.Well I'm gonna have to double post since getting this out seems somewhat important. I'll have reads and the like on everyone here in a bit.
Wait. Full stop. You've repeatedly posted that you 'Would. Not. Do. This.' And now, half a day later, without a single reason given, you're suddenly doing what you said you refused to do.
Don't do that! If you're going to change your mind, your strongly held mind, your absolute and repeatedly stated, no chance it's a typo, no this is what you mean mind - explain yourself! How is the need to do that not obvious?
What if I say I don't believe that, and instead say you're pointing fingers with nothing to back it up? I think you're doing that, Nerjin.
...
My vote is more pressure than lynch right now, so I encourage people to do their own homework right now. Once I have something more solid and want to convince people, then I'll present a full case.
I don't know if he's doing this to mock you, to teach you, to talk to you in a language you might best understand (because you appear to be using similar) or what his reasoning is.
But wow do you jump to his.... I have to call it 'a gentle vote'. That's got to be the gentlest vote placement I've seen so far.Oh fuck off. This late in the day there is no such thing as a pressure vote. If you're not voting the person you think is scummiest you're wasting everyone's time.
Sure, there's also another conversational post from notquitethere (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4727681#msg4727681), but he's been having those exchanges with you for days now.... that one doesn't seem significantly different (funnier, but not different).
So what are you doing and why are you doing it? I need help understanding your motives and your reasoning - how is what you are doing (both before and now) serving your wincon, and if it's not - why are you wasting so much time (then or now) on non-wincon achieving behaviors?
I am not viewing Toony as anti-Town because of lurkiness. I am not viewing him as anti-Town because of things he has not done, or for not having time. I view what he -has- done as being dishonest and anti-Town. He could have attempted to lurk with need, but he attempted to create the illusion of Scumhunting instead. The first is necessary for him, the second is deceptive and it is the second he chose.I think you're misunderstanding. I didn't have time to read every post word for word, anything that caught my eye I would respond to, or at least put the effort into responding to. You seem to be reading my struggle to write posts as me attempting to "look" like I'm scum-hunting but that isn't true.
Oh, and in case it should be said(it was always true) - I hope you got/get high A's, Toony. Good luck man.Thanks, they're done now. I don't have another mid-term for like two weeks so it's a bit of a breather for me.
ToonySomewhat hypocritical I know, but I there's a particular instance here:He hasn't been pressured at all for most of the day. Since nobody had the incentive to I'll go into unexplored territory myself. He also seemed pushy on me attacking Cmega3 more, so I'd like to learn in further detail why him and Persus13 are scum buddies.Yeah alright. Unvote Jim.I find it amusing that you FOS Tiruin for changing her votes so much when you do so also. I don't think changing your mind is a scum-tell, do you?
@Cmega3:
Your vote on Max White was poor and Persus13 seems to have retaliated against you. This seems fishy. What's your read on Persus13?
@Tiruin (FoS for emphasis):
What do you think of Caz? Why are you switching your vote so much?
That I'd also want clarity on. Tiruin, I don't understand your case countering Toaster here.QuoteAnd this is an awfully casual poke on a vote for a seemingly passive-aggressive statement.This is an awfully defensive vote.TiruinInteresting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
Why is that an awfully defensive vote?
@Nerjin:
You think Max White and NQT are both scum? That would mean they were double bussing each other, and on Day 1? I don't believe it.
And Nerjin, NQT is voting you, and Max White is not. If I have to break the tie (because Cmega3 never shows up or something) it's going on you.
Nerjin— So, your scum picks are... the people other than yourself that have put the most effort into the game? (type this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713163#msg4713163) here (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/)). Do you really think the scum-team could be NQT/Max/Imp? We're scummier than, say, Cmega or Toony?
I'm also reading through it.Regardless, It'll help if people read these. They're fun no matter what.Thanks for the links, I just read through 1, and I plan on reading several more, other than the 70 page one (seemed too intimidating)
Supernatural 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106608.msg3165006#msg3165006)
Supernatural 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.msg2473824#msg2473824)
Supernatural 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74938.msg1875341#msg1875341)
Supernatural 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1436015#msg1436015)
Supernatural 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59269.msg1328001#msg1328001)
Anyways, if you really think I shouldn't begin with supernatural, I may go for a begginers' one and come back later. ;D
Max White:
Null-Lean-Scum
Notquitethere:
Null-lean-scum
Imp:
Null-lean-light-scum
Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today. (~7 hours)
You never tie up the vote this close to lynch time. There's like... 2 hours left man. Some information has to be gained.
I see you saying that I told Cmega3 to unvote NQT and this is part of the reason I'm scum and deserve lyncing and me and Cmega are scum buddies. Suddenly, at the end of one of Cmega's posts, he asks you questions about why my question looked so suspicious. Cmega appears to be defending me for a question I asked him that was pretty aggressive and made two people think I'm scummy. This to me appears to be buddying or getting too comfortable with another player who they should think of as a possible scum, not confirmed town. If Cmega was scum, he could realize that buddying me when I currently am already accused of buddying Cmega and being on his scumteam would cause people's alarm bells to go off and cause other players to vote me, resulting in my lynch. When I flip town, Cmega can argue that he is town too since I'm not town and one of the major reasons he looked scummy was because of buddying accusations about me and I flipped town, therefore he isn't scummy and is town. This whole lynching of me D1 distracts from other members of the scumteam that may be currently in danger of being lynched (not saying that parts true) and so gives scum extra time.
This is probably far-fetched and me being paranoid and seeing scummy traits in everyone, but I still think its odd.
If Toony had said 'Right, I've got this issue and I can't really play for a bit' (he did) and then not played for a bit, that's honest. He could have logged on, caught up on posts as he had time, asked questions if he had any, let us know he was following the thread a little or a lot, that's honest too.
Unvote
Yep.
Dude, it's 3:30 righ-... I have failed at time. Anyway solved that little issue for you.
I couldn't break the tie by unvoting at the time. We need a lynch. No-lynching doesn't help anyone and a tie would've led to just another day of "Oh well I guess we gotta pick one or the other.
... Please tell me how I'm supposed to get out of this? Anything else I say'll just run interference on later days. I'm fine with dieing tonight. I had nothing to give to the team anyways.
Try to follow along here, I'm going to speak slowly for you.
If I die I cannot even try to hunt scum. Therefore I need to avoid death to do that. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Why I, and everyone, should be voting Nerjin:
Nerjin.You two seem to be getting along well (joshing one another with silly ribs), what do you think of the other, exactly? Would you be surprised if the other flipped town or scum?
I have reasons but they're mostly reiteration of other people's points. Passive, defensive, reactionary, unwilling to take a stand, vote Cmega3 just to break the tie in his favor, etc.Voting to break yourself out of a tie I don't think really means anything. Since town will want to live just as well especially since they know they are town.
Voting to break yourself out of a tie I don't think really means anything. Since town will want to live just as well especially since they know they are town.
Nerjin if you're submitting to getting lynched, could you at least claim? Any valuable info to share? Simply unvoting and waiting to die isn't very productive.
I had the thought of there being a Toaster/Jim scum team and that was very scary to ponder.
@Toaster/Jim:Why I, and everyone, should be voting Nerjin:Nerjin.You two seem to be getting along well (joshing one another with silly ribs), what do you think of the other, exactly? Would you be surprised if the other flipped town or scum?
I learned that Caz likes to rolefish.
Nerjin: Are you still a dreamwalker?
Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?Nope.
Why I, and everyone, should be voting Nerjin:In hindsight how do you feel now? Are you going to vote Nerjin again?
I learned that Caz likes to rolefish.
@Toaster:Why I, and everyone, should be voting Nerjin:In hindsight how do you feel now? Are you going to vote Nerjin again?
I learned that Caz likes to rolefish.
Need to remember I can't edit posts here. I don't think asking people to give their relevant info is rolefishing as such. If we don't use what happened during the night to help us figure out who to lynch, it's just going to be a day of arguing over eachother's mismanaged sentences.
We're looking at a vampire cult, right? If we lynch wrong today, they'll start to outnumber us. We need any relevant info that can help, tbh. Jumping on "omg caz is rolefishing" is just the standard "look i'm a townie" action.
Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?
From what I can tell I'm still a Dreamwalker. I was told that I feel like myself but I'm not sure if that means I maintain my dream-walk powers. I'll have to get back to you on that.Nothing more to say? Nothing interesting to add?
We're looking at a vampire cult, right? If we lynch wrong today, they'll start to outnumber us. We need any relevant info that can help, tbh. Jumping on "omg caz is rolefishing" is just the standard "look i'm a townie" action.A vampire cult? Why do you think that?
Back to Persus13. Same reasons as yesterday.
I dunno.
Did you?
Ok, fun!
Firstly I think who ever resurrected Nerjin should claim. While I'm not a fan of giving out any sort of role info this early, this could be one of the times it is more beneficial.
If this pattern of no NKs and raising the dead continues it would become clear we have a necromancer, so having them already claimed makes life easy for the town.
If they claim priest and then then don't raise any more dead to try and look less obvious then they don't get more members, and it makes life easier for the town.
If they refuse to claim priest then it is pretty clear we actually do have a necromancer, and at least we know exactly what we are dealing with.
A vampire cult? Why do you think that?
Between having roles that have a protect and the possibility for the mafia to not have a kill, you choose the non-kill? Its only day 2, what pattern do you have?
All right, that's 9. I'll leave sign-ups through tomorrow, close them Tuesday, and we'll get started once I finish the roles and initial flavor.
As part of keeping this beginner friendly, I won't be changing any of the roles or rules from last time. So while you still won't know quite what to expect at the start, if you've read all the previous games you should be in decent shape.
I've decided to run another Supernatural Mafia, since it's been a while since I did one.
Min players will be 8, max is 16.
Players
- Dariush
ShakeragTown Priest- Darvi
- Urist Imiknorris
zombie urist- Town Fortune Teller- webadict
- Powder Miner
Toaster- Lone Vampire- NativeForeigner
- Jokerman-EXE
IronyOwl- Town WerebearOrangebottle- Werewolf PriestTiruin- Werewolf IllusionistToonyMan- Werewolf Knight
Surely it couldn't be that you are a vampire and actively trying to discourage discussion about your scumteam.
And how about you point out where you think Caz is so sure it's a vampire cult. I mean, the day just started. It should be easy to find.
We're looking at a vampire cult, right? If we lynch wrong today, they'll start to outnumber us.
Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?You referring to yesterday or to night actions? And I would disagree that we're back to D1. In the case that I got attacked by a third party and we have vampires it means the scum have added one to their ranks. It also means any Fortune Tellers or similar roles got a chance to look at people.
Surely it couldn't be that you are a vampire and actively trying to discourage discussion about your scumteam.Jim asks why is Max is trying to talk people out of a vampire scumteam. Max asks why Jim and Caz are so sure it's vampires. Jim says this means Max is a vampire. Hmmm. You both seem to be overconfident about the validity of your points.
And how about you point out where you think Caz is so sure it's a vampire cult. I mean, the day just started. It should be easy to find.
We're looking at a vampire cult, right? If we lynch wrong today, they'll start to outnumber us.
Well that was easy.
Now, once again, why does "Why are you sure there is a cult" = "No, there is no cult and don't talk about it" in your mind? Wouldn't questioning people saying there is a cult lead to more discussion of the topic?
I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).
Also, Jim, what we're your reasons for voting Nejin yesterday?
I dunno, man. Yeah, he looks sure. But I don't think he looks so sure.Not my job to prove how sure he is on the matter, I just asked him why he was sure.
You're going to have to clarify a lot more on that point.
Why would you ask such an obvious question like where's the evidence of a cult when there wasn't a kill last night?I didn't ask where is the evidence of a cult, I asked why he thought a cult was more likely than a protect. You sure like to misinterpret today Jim.
You even think it's likely there is a cult. I don't understand why you asked the question.
And when you ask where's the evidence of a vampire cult, it sure sounds like you want to challenge the idea of a vampire cult.
I'm just wondering why Caz is so sure it is a cult,
Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.I don't know. I believe in S2 the cult attacked and subdued their victims before dragging them off and killing them with magicy daggers. They didn't use vampire fangs.
Well, the PM said I sensed danger, so I hid in a corner and waited instead of sleeping and then after some time went by, a the lock burst and a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts) came in and looked for me. I attacked him and we fought until I wounded him and he ran away after distracting me. Then I blocked the door. That was all the description gave. It was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).
I can believe this if you were attacked by a monster hunter.
I can't really believe this if you were attacked by the scum team.
Describe your flavor more. Mephansteras does not disguise where kill sources came from, even in failed attempts. Please provide more detail.
Also, Tiruin and Cmega will likely need prods by tomorrow.Ugh. The day starts in my night, sir. It ended when I was away and unable to give my note.
I dreamed that I was dead... Because I was dead. Can't dream when dead it turns out.Ok HOW can you still speak. You're dead :x
I dreamed that I was dead... Because I was dead. Can't dream when dead it turns out.Ok HOW can you still speak. You're dead :x
Wait I'm blind didn't see this..
You awaken again in the circle. Eleven of you stand to find those who threaten your civilization.
Eleven? Yes...Nerjin stands amongst you once more. How odd.
And no others are missing, as you feared might be the case.
Many questions, and few answers at this point. Time to begin today's trial.
Day 2 has begun. It will go until ~5pm Pacific Wednesday.
Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?
a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
Or was that the plan?
I didn't ask where is the evidence of a cult, I asked why he thought a cult was more likely than a protect. You sure like to misinterpret today Jim.
A vampire cult? Why do you think that?
Between having roles that have a protect and the possibility for the mafia to not have a kill, you choose the non-kill? Its only day 2, what pattern do you have?
...General question: Is there any role associated with necrophilia? :X
It's perfectly fair to wait until after Tiruin has answered. On reasoning it through, you're quite right in that it was bad form of me to be impatient in this regard. So in fact, we can pick this up after her response. My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?
I am the Priest.
Happily.I am the Priest.
Would you please discuss the flavor of your resurrection?
Sacrificial cult - Nets
Devil - Presumably not with a sword
Is a third-party hunter compatible with the pre-existing supernatural game templates?
Jim— is Persus so suspicious that he'd be worth killing without investigating first?
People jumping on the first post they can, I would guess.Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?This question seems to have attracted a lot of ire. I'd like to know more about why - from both sides of the story.
Caz, do you have any information you'd like to add to the pile that's been provided? That is - why you asked this question, what value to Town you feel asking it/the answers you expected it to provide has for Town, and also, do you have information about the events of your last night that you were/are considering sharing? How open do you feel the Town should be about sharing their night experiences/other information each has at this point?
Extend sounds good, I think we've got a lot to discuss. I have some serious out of this game distractions right now too.
I have next to no time but there are a few things I really want to say and ask right now.Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?
This question seems to have attracted a lot of ire. I'd like to know more about why - from both sides of the story.
If the anti-Caz side (So far that's Toaster and Tiruin - but if more join it I want to hear your answers too please) is saying 'it's rolefishing, rolefishing is bad', I understand that much. Won't say I'm powerfully convinced by it alone. Is there more 'wrongness' than rolefishing in what Caz has said?
Caz, do you have any information you'd like to add to the pile that's been provided? That is - why you asked this question, what value to Town you feel asking it/the answers you expected it to provide has for Town, and also, do you have information about the events of your last night that you were/are considering sharing? How open do you feel the Town should be about sharing their night experiences/other information each has at this point?
About Nerjin, my read-throughs of previous S games completely support that you don't dream while dead. I urge anyone curious about 'how stuff works' (that's most of us, right?) to read back over the end of game posts for supernaturals 1-5. Every one shows all the night action posts, both the simple ones and the complex ones (where multiple people were affected by competing actions). I also support that it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to be a zombie. When a zombie was raised, it happened 'invisibly' (note my early concern about a player that didn't appear to be playing or vote-able - I reference the old game's zombie in that) He could be a good many other things though, from still Town Dreamwalker to Non-Town Dreamwalker to Non-Town Non-Dreamwalker.
I support the idea of the individual who raised Nerjin coming forward. So far all resurrection roles in previous S games have been one shots - there have been both Town and Scum priests though. The priest isn't proof of alignment, but I'd like to know who did it and why, please. Or can anyone explain to me why claiming this obvious action is going to make someone more obvious a target for Scum targeting or for Lynching, and thus would be a bad idea?
Nerjin, was there -anything- in your experiences last night that told you anything about -who- or -how- you were raised, other than that there was a candle? Where did you become alive again? Was it in the Circle with the rest of us, or somewhere else? if somewhere else, where and how did you get back to the Circle?
You quote the player list for the last game and follow that by saying "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."
I get the first quote of Meph, he says rules and roles won't change, that supports your sentence.
But the second quote, the player list - it has werewolves and a lone vampire (who died, not surviving to move on to another area as his role said he must to win). What do you see in that player list that supports "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."?
Persus13:a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
notquitethere, why Nerjin?We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game. If he keeps that up, even if he's a survivor third-party now, he'll be a town asset. Also, I might die or be converted on any given night so I thought it best to use my power on the first competent town player that died. Would you have left him dead?
Yes, I get that we can watch him and keep an eye out for any shenanigans, but that's not justification for raising him. What value does he bring back to the town, if he came back as town, and why is it worth potentially bringing in some nasty stuff into the game?
Devils are the ones who offer deals. Demons are the nasty ones you're thinking of.Devils can also get a one-shot kill.
OK Jim, please explain to me how night-killing town players is more productive.Jim— is Persus so suspicious that he'd be worth killing without investigating first?Investigate how? Oh, right, you think I'm a Monster Hunter.
The thing is, killing is investigating. You can either 1) learn somebody's alignment, or 2) remove somebody from the game and in the process learn their alignment. Option 2 is more productive.
Would you have left him dead?
OK Jim, please explain to me how night-killing town players is more productive.
ToonyMan Town Vampire Hunter
So do you disagree with my reasoning for bringing him back? Do you think town priests should always abstain from resurrecting?Would you have left him dead?Yeah, probably.
It sounds nice and Poirot but I just don't buy it Jim. If you eliminate town players you're helping scum win quicker, no?
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Hell, I admit I'm not always right about everything. Let's open these questions up to the floor.I believe that the monster hunter should investigate before acting on his suspicions at least N1. A town killer can be a double-edged sword or a loose cannon, case in point, would likely be Toonyman's vampire hunter from S1 who believed he was facing vampires because that was his role. There isn't much info on D1, but afterwards things start becoming clearer. However if you are very certain someone's scum, you may want to use your skill N2. But if we're facing vampires, then every town kill means that town kill is one step closer to success.
Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Caz. Your comment has so many assumptions that it doesn't make sense. First off, you are assuming that a monster hunter attacked me and said monster hunter was Jim. Both of which aren't known yet. Of course this could also mean you and Jim are cult trying to pass off your botched killing of me as a town monster hunter, removing suspicion of the two of you and you just slipped up.It sounds nice and Poirot but I just don't buy it Jim. If you eliminate town players you're helping scum win quicker, no?
This line of thought only makes sense if Jim was targeting confirmed town. Which he didn't.
Vigilantes eliminates suspects. Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.not as you claim Jim's (assuming he is a Monster Hunter and I wasn't attacked by scum or a third-party) attack on me.
It's similar reasoning to the lynch; it removes a player from the game, but arguably more importantly, it also serves to help the town investigate the remaining players.
Caz. Your comment has so many assumptions that it doesn't make sense. First off, you are assuming that a monster hunter attacked me and said monster hunter was Jim. Both of which aren't known yet. Of course this could also mean you and Jim are cult trying to pass off your botched killing of me as a town monster hunter, removing suspicion of the two of you and you just slipped up.
Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?
Wait, that was a bandwagon vote? *quick looks through the thread*. Oh, I forgot Toaster RVSed you at the start.Caz. Your comment has so many assumptions that it doesn't make sense. First off, you are assuming that a monster hunter attacked me and said monster hunter was Jim. Both of which aren't known yet. Of course this could also mean you and Jim are cult trying to pass off your botched killing of me as a town monster hunter, removing suspicion of the two of you and you just slipped up.
That's the scenario we were discussing, yeah. Nice bandwagon jump btw. Nothing I said was untrue. You're not confirmed town, even though you'd like to be. Claiming knight doesn't clear you of anything.Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?
Not really. You're still the lead runner, since Nerjin was proved town. You jumping on the third vote (the most common bandwagoning-scum vote) with little more than "you're jumping to conclusions!" when you misunderstood the scenario being discussed just makes it easier. Persus13. Yeah, this may be construed as an omgoose vote. I'll reconsider it when you explain to me why you're so sure it's not a monster hunter. Do vampires and werewolves make regular use of swords?
Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?I'd like to ask this to everyone, especially Max who seems to have given up his tunneling of NQT. It's been a few days (real-time), giving us a slight break to think things over.
Yeah, this may be construed as an omgoose vote.
Saying we're back to Day 1 again is wrong. In general I would say that was a pretty iffy thing to start the next day with.Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?Is there more 'wrongness' than rolefishing in what Caz has said?
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?I would probably investigate first. I haven't had a vig role in awhile though.
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
-snip-So you think Toaster and Tiruin are scum? Is this solely because the two are trying to lynch Caz or do you you think other actions by them are scummy?
It sounds nice and Poirot but I just don't buy it Jim. If you eliminate town players you're helping scum win quicker, no?
This certainly isn't how Toony played the role:
So do you disagree with my reasoning for bringing him back? Do you think town priests should always abstain from resurrecting?
Hell, I admit I'm not always right about everything. Let's open these questions up to the floor.
Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?I'd like to ask this to everyone, especially Max who seems to have given up his tunneling of NQT. It's been a few days (real-time), giving us a slight break to think things over.
There are instances where resurrecting somebody could prove valuable. Resurrecting Nerjin, who did not have a powerful role or any valuable information to bring back to the town, was not such an instance.Out of curiosity, what role would you consider powerful. Doesn't Dreamwalker allow you to view the PMs of other players? I'd consider that a powerful role.
I'm able to see an action thathappened though not who was involved. As far as I can tell.Oh, then that isn't as powerful as I thought it would be. Unless someone fake-claimed a power.
There are instances where resurrecting somebody could prove valuable. Resurrecting Nerjin, who did not have a powerful role or any valuable information to bring back to the town, was not such an instance.Out of curiosity, what role would you consider powerful.
Devils are the ones who offer deals. Demons are the nasty ones you're thinking of.Devils can also get a one-shot kill.
We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game.
We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game. Also, I might die or be converted on any given night so I thought it best to use my power on the first competent town player. Would you have left him dead?
While I feel bad that you're calling me a bad town player, I'm glad your keeping the options open.There are instances where resurrecting somebody could prove valuable. Resurrecting Nerjin, who did not have a powerful role or any valuable information to bring back to the town, was not such an instance.Out of curiosity, what role would you consider powerful.
Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves what kind of noob scumteam there is that would kill Persus13 first, which arguably would help scum. You kill the good players first, not the bad. Since no one likes the idea of a monster hunter, let's roll with that. Then there's also the possibility that Persus13 is making it all up to stop us considering a cult scumteam.
While I feel bad that you're calling me a bad town player, I'm glad your keeping the options open.
Also, are you referring to vampires when you say cult?
Also, are you referring to vampires when you say cult?
@NQT:
I agree with Imp here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743064#msg4743064). Your excuse for resurrecting Nerjin isn't very convincing unless you were taking any chance you could get. Which sounds overeager and possibly scummy. You're also attacking a player with what I can only assume a case that proves they're town?
Attacking NQT saying Nerjin not playing yesterdayI'd say that Nerjin was showing a few signs of actually playing. His long post analyzing all of Cmega3's posts and few of various townies both seemed useful pieces of scumhunting. Although he had promise he has failed to use it today
Actually it's because I don't see the point. There's not enough time or information for me to make a proper go at things.
You can ask him why he thinks there's a cult when there are other explanations for why there was no kill. But when you ask him for a pattern, you're asking for something stronger than just opinion.I thought maybe he could see something I couldn't. After all he was replying to somebody else, perhaps they both saw reason for a cult over a protect?
Now that it's been sufficiently established, I'll ask again: Why did you ask him why he thought there was a vampire cult, and more to the point, why did you ask him for a pattern?
The other option is Persus is lying, perhaps to discourage night kills.Or to further cast doubt over the nature of the scum team. He could very well be the cultist leader, but claiming he got attacked to make himself look more innocent while leaving us to figure out what sort of attack it was. Is there anything more generic than a guy in a mask with a sword?
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?I would use an investigate. It also helps clear suspects, but doesn't run the risk of killing townies. The problem with killing everybody off is that every townie you kill, not only do you bring the town a step closer to loosing, but there are less people for the scum to target, meaning that you become more and more likely to be the target of their night actions.
Should a priest use their resurrect power?No they shouldn't!
We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game. If he keeps that up, even if he's a survivor third-party now, he'll be a town asset.Oh, was he? If you think he was starting to straighten up and fly right then why were you voting for him yesterday? How did he go from lynch worthy to a town asset, even as third party?
@Tiruin (FoS for emphasis):Now I had this thing saved for days, and I love how you link back to it WITHOUT CHECKING THE CONTEXT. Let me round that FoS to you, handsome.
What do you think of Caz? Why are you switching your vote so much?
If the anti-Caz side (So far that's Toaster and Tiruin - but if more join it I want to hear your answers too please) is saying 'it's rolefishing, rolefishing is bad', I understand that much. Won't say I'm powerfully convinced by it alone. Is there more 'wrongness' than rolefishing in what Caz has said?@Imp: It's more of an 'I see what you did there and really want to punch you for it but I can't so my vote will suffice' note.
I'd love if I could see input from Toaster and Tiruin and Cmega3....You're voting Toaster, why, instead of the other two on this inferably suspicion-list?
Huh... I hadn't even considered that possibility. I'm going to have to apologize though and hold off on posting until at least tomorrow. I'm just not in the mood for this particular game for some reason.Maybe because someone revived you, huh. :I
Persus13That isn't my suspicion list, that's the who-I-want-to-post list.I'd love if I could see input from Toaster and Tiruin and Cmega3....You're voting Toaster, why, instead of the other two on this inferably suspicion-list?
This line of thought only makes sense if Jim was targeting confirmed town. Which he didn't.Most players are town and if you have the option of confirming alignment before using you could eliminate the chance of mistakenly killing townies, a possibility that seems very likely.
I would probably kill someone who I thought to be scum, to be honest. Having a kill is like having a lynch, except you don't need to convince everyone else with it.But having to convince other people shows the strength of your case. It's very easy for a single person to be mistaken.
Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves what kind of noob scumteam there is that would kill Persus13 first, which arguably would help scum. You kill the good players first, not the bad. Since no one likes the idea of a monster hunter, let's roll with that. Then there's also the possibility that Persus13 is making it all up to stop us considering a cult scumteam.Bit WIFOM-ish but you might have a point here. Hmm.
You heard it here, folks! Only town players die from vigkills!Sarcasm does you a disservice. Obviously scum can be killed with a vigilante kill. You said it was valuable even if you did kill town players:
Scum dying from vigkills is such an alien possibility that it's not even worth considering when asking questions about how to utilize vigkills to their full advantage!
Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.
I want to know whether you're reasoning is pro-scum and I'm willing to admit that my intuitions might be wrong. I talk to everyone in the game anyway. Investigating your way of thinking is scum-hunting. I'm not stopping anyone following up their own inquiries.Hell, I admit I'm not always right about everything. Let's open these questions up to the floor.How is this an important issue to ask everybody about?
This is a distraction from finding scum.
I have a question. What the fuck are you even voting me over?You gave an argument that seemed to me to be in favour of acting in a way likely to endanger town's chances of winning. Only you and Caz seem to think this way so far. You guys might just be loose cannons but your continued attitude seems very hostile which raises my suspicions somewhat.
@NQT:Not sure how wanting to resurrect a confirmed town player is scummy. I was concerned about being night killed before I got the chance to use my power. I find Jim suspicious because he advocates a way of playing a role that seems to me (and at least three other players) to be anti-town. Even if I do think he's a monster hunter (Persus might be lying and there might not even be a monster hunter in the game) he might be third-party. There was a third-party ghoul with a killing power in a previous game, right? So why not a third-party hunter? Anyway, this is all very speculative and I'd like to push a much stronger case once I've given the game a proper reassessment..
I agree with Imp here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743064#msg4743064). Your excuse for resurrecting Nerjin isn't very convincing unless you were taking any chance you could get. Which sounds overeager and possibly scummy. You're also attacking a player with what I can only assume a case that proves they're town?
I don't remember seeing any of the several devils from past games have a kill to use, they have a kill (and other things) to offer others. There's a deal for a soul, and some things (guardian angel) cannot be dealt with, autofail reasons.I reread the devil description and you're right, I was mistaken about them having a kill.
Excuse me, but I was very involved during his 'at death's door/end of D1' questioning. I did not see anything that made me think he was starting to get his anything together, and I was rather ardent about trying to evoke that from him.I was thinking of the posts immediately before you quoted, like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4730791#msg4730791). He obviously went and reread parts of the thread and seemed to putting in some effort.
Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Oh, was he? If you think he was starting to straighten up and fly right then why were you voting for him yesterday? How did he go from lynch worthy to a town asset, even as third party?Max this is baseless speculation. Nerjin was so borderline. I didn't know whether he was just appearing to give an effort just because I gave an ultimatum and I knew I could resurrect him if I was wrong. I probably would have unvoted him if his scum-pick breakdown had made much sense.
Seems to me like you are trying to set him up, knowing that if there is an inspect in town it is heading straight for him.
I will be honest. I was kinda upset that I was revived. I'm having much more fun in the other thread because I haven't let it get away from me. I let this one do that, and when killed I was thinking "Awesome! Now I can just enjoy the fire-works and not have to pay too much attention." But now I do...Oh Nerjin, I hope you are still town.
..And I believe you're deriving your case from Caz because he was the first who mentioned my switchiness. Is that true, Toony? Or are you just being lazy?It was Toaster actually, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4723215#msg4723215). Second quote below your name.
NerjinYou can never tell! It's scary!I will be honest. I was kinda upset that I was revived. I'm having much more fun in the other thread because I haven't let it get away from me. I let this one do that, and when killed I was thinking "Awesome! Now I can just enjoy the fire-works and not have to pay too much attention." But now I do...Oh Nerjin, I hope you are still town.
Hey Toaster, does that fact that you voted Nerjin in the middle of the bandwagon look scummy to you? It seems perfect for a scum picking an easy lynch to me.
Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.I don't know. I believe in S2 the cult attacked and subdued their victims before dragging them off and killing them with magicy daggers. They didn't use vampire fangs.
Devils are the ones who offer deals. Demons are the nasty ones you're thinking of.Devils can also get a one-shot kill.
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves what kind of noob scumteam there is that would kill Persus13 first, which arguably would help scum. You kill the good players first, not the bad. Since no one likes the idea of a monster hunter, let's roll with that. Then there's also the possibility that Persus13 is making it all up to stop us considering a cult scumteam.
Could you answer my questions now you've thought about things some?
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
@Tiruin:...I'm calling Caz a lot more context than a superficial case of defensive. Me? Sure, I guess defensive is a term for my action. Being grumpy as well as directly attacking the guy is also a good idea. Assertive counts as a synonym. Grumpy is a blunt term...And I believe you're deriving your case from Caz because he was the first who mentioned my switchiness. Is that true, Toony? Or are you just being lazy?It was Toaster actually, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4723215#msg4723215). Second quote below your name.
You are calling Caz defensive, and while his actions at day start were odd, you weren't even here...and now...you don't think you're acting defensive?
[...]switching your vote so muchI did answer Toaster.
Tiruin, Toaster, Nerjin, Cmega
Still waiting on this:Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster...Err, I have no idea what a Monster Hunter does other than guess he can kill, because hunters do that. Or..track, perhaps?
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Anyway. If they can do such both in the same night - as in investigate and kill - sure. But I suspect you mean its an conjunction question you're saying (I mean, investigate someone then kill them? Dear me, a waste of an investigate unless there are no roleflips...which somehow makes sense here.)
...
So yeah. I do think the above case follows. Or if they can only use one on a separate target, then I'd prefer investigation first, unless they're REALLY REALLY sure the target is scum, then they can unleash their kill while investigating the other dude.
On your last question...eh? That's like asking 'should a white mage heal the wounded'? In truth, that makes me think. Given that you claimed a priest, are you sure of your piety? As in, do you EXACTLY know how pious you are, and how the God(s) favor you? Any other interfering stuff with your holiness and all?
Otherwise, if only a generality is known, then yeah, I still think a priest should use his resurrect, and then use his scumhunting and prior notes on said person to check (as well as the night actions and process of elimination and all).
Either way, unless the priest suspects stuff happened to him or that he's...lacking? I think he should use his resurrect. Why're you asking me this? I ain't a priest, father NQT.
Proceeding query: Based on Max' (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743537#msg4743537) response of Priests...Huh. It makes it seem more like the priest role is a sentient mystery box. Sometimes bad, sometimes good. All depending on the context.
Why did you resurrect Nerjin? If already answered, why did you resurrect Nerjin now instead of later then?
Persus13Ok wow....Masked guy with sword = cult scumteam?
Hi guys, so before we get into discussion of a vampire cult, I'd like to mention something.
I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).
From where are you getting that notion (other than looking back). I mean, out of context, that thing looks eerily specific when you judge 'guy with sword'. Couldn't that be flavor for any kind of person (I'm thinking scum knight perhaps?)
...But based onThough now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.
My question still stands to you Persus, becauseIt was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.this proceeding thought on the matter specifies.
...Ok, catching up on the confluzzle the happened near D1 end so I'm poking at points from recent time until I get my full bearings.
..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.
Cmega3: Where are you. What have you been doing, and what are your concise thoughts on everyone at the moment?
Tiruin, Toaster, Nerjin, Cmega...Err, I have no idea what a Monster Hunter does other than guess he can kill, because hunters do that. Or..track, perhaps?
Still waiting on this:Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Ok wow....Masked guy with sword = cult scumteam?
Hi guys, so before we get into discussion of a vampire cult, I'd like to mention something.
I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).
Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.
It was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.this proceeding thought on the matter specifies.
There are instances where resurrecting somebody could prove valuable. Resurrecting Nerjin, who did not have a powerful role or any valuable information to bring back to the town, was not such an instance.Out of curiosity, what role would you consider powerful. Doesn't Dreamwalker allow you to view the PMs of other players? I'd consider that a powerful role.
Sarcasm does you a disservice. Obviously scum can be killed with a vigilante kill. You said it was valuable even if you did kill town players:Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.
Vigilantes eliminates suspects. Even if they happen to be town, this is still valuable.
It's similar reasoning to the lynch; it removes a player from the game, but arguably more importantly, it also serves to help the town investigate the remaining players.
How is this an important issue to ask everybody about?I want to know whether you're reasoning is pro-scum and I'm willing to admit that my intuitions might be wrong. I talk to everyone in the game anyway. Investigating your way of thinking is scum-hunting. I'm not stopping anyone following up their own inquiries.
This is a distraction from finding scum.
You gave an argument that seemed to me to be in favour of acting in a way likely to endanger town's chances of winning. Only you and Caz seem to think this way so far. You guys might just be loose cannons but your continued attitude seems very hostile which raises my suspicions somewhat.
I want to give the game the game a proper look over before I push a Day 2 case in earnest, so unvote for now, but I might be back.
I find Jim suspicious because he advocates a way of playing a role that seems to me (and at least three other players) to be anti-town. Even if I do think he's a monster hunter (Persus might be lying and there might not even be a monster hunter in the game) he might be third-party. There was a third-party ghoul with a killing power in a previous game, right? So why not a third-party hunter? Anyway, this is all very speculative and I'd like to push a much stronger case once I've given the game a proper reassessment.
Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor?
..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.
So in the scenario where one attacks with a sword and a mask, we can safely assume it was not a werebear, nor a supernatural entity. Probably anyone from the list in the OP, and..a cult, right?Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor?
No, it's faction flavor. There may be some variance based on role in the attacker's role PM, but it won't be obvious what that is from the victim's PM...And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.
Because even though the setups are closed they are pretty regular. A lot of clues can be gathered this way, by comparing it to previous games.
Stands at:You know I just realized I don't like what you are doing here.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Nerjin was so borderline. I didn't know whether he was just appearing to give an effort just because I gave an ultimatum and I knew I could resurrect him if I was wrong. I probably would have unvoted him if his scum-pick breakdown had made much sense."Oh I'll just lynch the borderline player and bring him back if he is town, what could go wrong?"
Blah blah reasons blah blah text wallThat... Is actually a good point.
A cult is... possible. But I think it's unlikely given the choice of target.Can we agree on using different terms for a cult flavored mafia and a vampire flavored cult?
[[Bah post]]
From what I can tell I'm still a Dreamwalker. I was told that I feel like myself but I'm not sure if that means I maintain my dream-walk powers. I'll have to get back to you on that.
Nerjin, was there -anything- in your experiences last night that told you anything about -who- or -how- you were raised, other than that there was a candle? Where did you become alive again? Was it in the Circle with the rest of us, or somewhere else? if somewhere else, where and how did you get back to the Circle?
You quote the player list for the last game and follow that by saying "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."
I get the first quote of Meph, he says rules and roles won't change, that supports your sentence.
But the second quote, the player list - it has werewolves and a lone vampire (who died, not surviving to move on to another area as his role said he must to win). What do you see in that player list that supports "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."?
Back to Persus13. Same reasons as yesterday.
I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.
Yeah, I don't like you trying to bring attention to these two players.
Meanwhile, your vote is on Persus13.
Why are you trying to draw attention to Max White and Nerjin instead of the player you're supposedly trying to lynch?
Ah, I see. What game was it that had a necromancer then?
Persus13:a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?I'd like to ask this to everyone, especially Max who seems to have given up his tunneling of NQT. It's been a few days (real-time), giving us a slight break to think things over.
Imp and Toonyman haven't really done much besides attack NQT
And then your attacking Nerjin for not scumhunting, when he seems to have given all he had. And he also said this.Actually it's because I don't see the point. There's not enough time or information for me to make a proper go at things.
Not everyone can churn out walls of text like you can in a short amount of time. And churning out lots of information isn't guaranteed to help town like you seem to think it is.
@NQT:If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?I would probably investigate first. I haven't had a vig role in awhile though.
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Hunters can investigate as well as kill.
Toaster (town)
This world is full of evil. Vampires, Werewolves, Cultists. Demons, Devils. Monsters of all types. And it falls to you, Monster Hunter, to seek them out and slay them. Each night you may choose to attack and Kill another player that you suspect is evil. But choose wisely, for your skills are deadly to good and evil alike.
ToonyMan (town)
You are a mighty Vampire Hunter. You are a master of combat, able to slay even the most powerful monsters. But your specialty lies in hunting Vampires. You know how to protect yourself from being turned into one, and have learned to identify them. Each night you may choose to either Inspect a person to see if they are a Vampire or Not, or to Kill someone that you know or suspect is a threat to the town.
I'm at work now so only have time to do these responses but I intend to do some proper analysis, hopefully tonight, before pressing my next round of cases.
Stands at:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
MaxOh, was he? If you think he was starting to straighten up and fly right then why were you voting for him yesterday? How did he go from lynch worthy to a town asset, even as third party?Nerjin was so borderline. I didn't know whether he was just appearing to give an effort just because I gave an ultimatum and I knew I could resurrect him if I was wrong. I probably would have unvoted him if his scum-pick breakdown had made much sense.
notquitethere, why Nerjin?We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game. If he keeps that up, even if he's a survivor third-party now, he'll be a town asset. Also, I might die or be converted on any given night so I thought it best to use my power on the first competent town player that died.
MaxIf you think he was starting to straighten up and fly right then why were you voting for him yesterday? How did he go from lynch worthy to a town asset, even as third party?Max this is baseless speculation.
Seems to me like you are trying to set him up, knowing that if there is an inspect in town it is heading straight for him.
Tiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game. During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing! No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance. Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?
If Nerjin doesn't give us accurate dreamwalker results tomorrow, then he's next to hang.
You know what's not on this list?
Your argument for me being scum. If you think there's a vampire scumteam then you cannot be fucking around voting anti-town people and third parties, no matter how dangerous and loose-cannony you think they are.
Also, have your opinions on who is scummy changed at all today?
Not really. You're still the lead runner, since Nerjin was proved town. You jumping on the third vote (the most common bandwagoning-scum vote) with little more than "you're jumping to conclusions!" when you misunderstood the scenario being discussed just makes it easier. Persus13. Yeah, this may be construed as an omgoose vote. I'll reconsider it when you explain to me why you're so sure it's not a monster hunter. Do vampires and werewolves make regular use of swords?
I'm worried about Toaster though
I had the thought of there being a Toaster/Jim scum team and that was very scary to ponder.
I totally get that some players are cool and get to do things that other players are clearly uncool for trying, but other than long, drawn out pressure and a 'place' for your vote, what are you doing with your Persus13 vote?
Sort of. I'm swimming as hard as I can to keep up with the flood of real life and 3 simultaneous Mafia games. I think I'm in the process of becoming a better swimmer *gasps for breath*. I need a chance to best immerse myself in this thread again.
My thoughts about Nerjin:
I think he's a prime conversion target (if there are conversions happening). If the Scum didn't resurrect him then there's a 50% chance he came back as something that's probably more useful to the Scum than a dreamwalker would be (not that a dreamwalker's useless to Scum or Town if they get a lucky inspect target). I do agree with NQT's assertion that if Nerjin comes back changed (and if he was not raised by Scum), he's going to be an issue for the Scum as well as Town and especially if they can convert, I have trouble thinking of any reason NOT to take him as a high priority conversion target.
Nerjin, your[[Bah post]]
came barely more than a minute before Meph posted start of day. I know that bah posts are not supposed to contain any meaningful content, but I still have to ask - bahing having died, being alive again, or both?
Told you feel like yourself? Are you paraphrasing/reinterpreting what your PM said, or is that pretty much the actual wording? I understand you must not quote it.
Also - You likely missed these questions, I forgot to bold your name in the post where I ask them.Nerjin, was there -anything- in your experiences last night that told you anything about -who- or -how- you were raised, other than that there was a candle? Where did you become alive again? Was it in the Circle with the rest of us, or somewhere else? if somewhere else, where and how did you get back to the Circle?
You quote the player list for the last game and follow that by saying "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."
I get the first quote of Meph, he says rules and roles won't change, that supports your sentence.
But the second quote, the player list - it has werewolves and a lone vampire (who died, not surviving to move on to another area as his role said he must to win). What do you see in that player list that supports "It's entirely likely that there be a Vampire Cult."?
Meph: Considering the known converting role (Vampire Lord), are non-human targets valid? Are non-town targets valid?There are specific rules for the various 3rd party roles when it comes to conversions.
On that note, by the fact that you aren't--or not currently--addressing my other points mean that either you are evading the case, or all I say is true about you. Am I correct to infer such?I didn't have anything to say to anything else. I'm not really denying or accepting, but I can't take your word that Caz is a liar just because you say he is.
Toonyman:I was given a really bad hand in S1. There wasn't any way for me to know my inspect was useless. I still would at least try using my inspect, since shooting blindly on N1 sounds like a good way to screw the town in the long run.@NQT:Does it matter to you what sort of investigate power you have? Reminded that you had a hunter in S1, who could detect vampires in a vampire-free game (there were two priests, but both were defined as pious, so no chance of them creating a vampire), do you think you'd probably still use your inspect, whatever that inspect was?If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?I would probably investigate first. I haven't had a vig role in awhile though.
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
Toony:No, why do you care?I'm worried about Toaster thoughAre you a lyncher to me or something? You keep pointing a finger at me without backing it up with any solid facts or reasoning. See also:I had the thought of there being a Toaster/Jim scum team and that was very scary to ponder.
You seem to be twisting NQT's argument here (he unvoted Jim too remember) while sticking with your target from last time (a safer vote) while riding on Jim's steam.Blah blah reasons blah blah text wallThat... Is actually a good point.
NQT was attacking somebody who seems to be the most likely suspect for as monster hunter for their night action preferences, rather than being scummy.
Persus13When I saw I'd been attacked I wondered what had attacked me. It definitely wasn't something supernatural so offhand that meant only two possibilities, a monster hunter, or the not supernatural cult from S2. What I didn't realize when I first posted was that the cult had supernatural sneaking skills (I reread the S2 flavor later on after people questioned me on it), so now I'm leading towards monster hunter. I don't think individual roles make a difference like you described, at least, that's what I've seen and have assumed. Also, someone (possibly Caz) posted a list of weapons used by different kill roles. Flavor can tell you a lot about a scumteam.Ok wow....Masked guy with sword = cult scumteam?
Hi guys, so before we get into discussion of a vampire cult, I'd like to mention something.
I am a Knight, and last night a masked guy with a sword attacked me. Unless some sort of monster hunter or SK attacked me (which didn't fit the flavor and I have a higher opinion of you guys if you're a town-aligned monster hunter) I think we're dealing with a repeat of the cult scumteam from S2 (which was a normal mafia scumteam).
From where are you getting that notion (other than looking back). I mean, out of context, that thing looks eerily specific when you judge 'guy with sword'. Couldn't that be flavor for any kind of person (I'm thinking scum knight perhaps?)
...But based onThough now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.
My question still stands to you Persus, becauseIt was clearly a man, and there wasn't anything seemingly supernatural or demonic about him. That's why I was leaning toward cultists (as in S2) or a monster hunter.this proceeding thought on the matter specifies.
@Tiruin:I'd like an answer to this too.
Explain concisely, why is Caz a liar.
I agree with that. NQT, if you're going to data mine, use it in a way that helps find scum.Stands at:This sort of data mining provides nothing useful as far as finding scum, but is a subtle form of role fishing.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I also agree with you on this. I tend to refer to the former as S2 cult, and the latter as vampires or vamps.A cult is... possible. But I think it's unlikely given the choice of target.Can we agree on using different terms for a cult flavored mafia and a vampire flavored cult?
Persus, would you answer this question please?That described the masked swordsman.Persus13:a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
Then you and I disagree on the use of the verb attack. If you hunt a deer by shooting it with a bow, your attacking a deer. You're also basically saying the NQT made the wrong call when he rezzed Nerjin and that he shouldn't have done it while at the same time insulting Nerjin by calling him an incompetent town player. And before that you pressed him on the devil slipup that had already been pointed out to him (either by Toaster or Tiruin) and then wrote a paragraph about it and asked him about it when it seemed obvious he had merely slipped up.Imp and Toonyman haven't really done much besides attack NQT
I disagree with your assessment that I was 'attacking' NQT.
My intention was to discuss some things I was concerned about with NQT and receive his answers and reactions to my concern and questions.I can't read tone on a forum, and I read it like you were ripping into him for these things, not a normal discussion.
Do you agree with me about the difference between attacking and Scumhunting? If not, could you help me understand how I was attacking notquitethere?
Yes, but part of scumhunting is interaction. If I guy is going to be hanged in an hour, he can't exactly have a conversation through letters with someone else. He gave some useful information and that was all he could give. Follow-up is also important. He wasn't able to scumhunt, and so he gave some analysis.And then your attacking Nerjin for not scumhunting, when he seems to have given all he had. And he also said this.Actually it's because I don't see the point. There's not enough time or information for me to make a proper go at things.
Not everyone can churn out walls of text like you can in a short amount of time. And churning out lots of information isn't guaranteed to help town like you seem to think it is.
You are seriously confusing either 'the difference between Scumhunting and analysis' or my motives, or both. Scumhunting isn't analysis - it can use analysis, but it is the action of gaining more information that can be used to determine the intentions and thinking of those you play with.
That's why RVS questions - or even just a naked voted name thrown alone into a post - is considered a type of Scumhunting. You press for a reaction. It's great (and necessary) at some point for someone to analyze the behaviour that ensues - both the asker and the asked - BOTH are providing information about their intentions and thought patterns for all the players to consider.
Same point to Max.Yes he unvoted when his little "Bad vig should be lynched" argument didn't exactly catch on, but he still tried it. If we excused every scum tell just because they decided to redact it later we would never get that far, would we?
You seem to be twisting NQT's argument here (he unvoted Jim too remember) while sticking with your target from last time (a safer vote) while riding on Jim's steam.If I am somehow misrepresenting his argument, I don't see why he needs you to defend him, he can explain for himself.
I think he should use his resurrect. Why're you asking me this? I ain't a priest, father NQT.I want to know whether my intuitions about how roles should be played cohere with those of others (I want to know whether my finding someone suspicious is justified or whether it's just a personal disagreement). You not being a priest doesn't mean you can't weigh in on how to play one.
Why did you resurrect Nerjin? If already answered, why did you resurrect Nerjin now instead of later then?I was concerned about being killed or converted before I get to use the power for good. The same reason I always use my one-shot powers on the first night (like the Lovers power in Magic Mafia).
I think I'm missing a crucial note here. Everyone: NKs are tied with the flavor of the role who did it, yes? Not the general faction flavor? Swords seem...common in these parts, and connecting my thoughts with Toaster's Roguelike Mafia--I used any kind of weapon (bow/sword) when i was a scum Ranger. What I'm saying is, I bet anyone could use any kind of weapon at hand given the context there, but I'm not denouncing this idea that there are specific subsets which prefer to use x kind of weapon over a general y commonly seen around.Werewolves attack as wolves...
..And I'm really confused why we're all basing our knowledge on past games. As in, basing it until the point where it becomes metaknowledge against our fellow Meph GM here.Meph explicitly stated that he wasn't making anything new up for this game. Hence this is only a semi-closed set-up: we know all the possible roles.
This obviously wasn't an admission, and why do you list voting Cmega to tie the vote when he clearly unvoted before day's end in the section you quoted?Unvote
Yep.
Is this an admission?
Well, whatever. Have it your way.
Unvote, Nerjin.
I have reasons but they're mostly reiteration of other people's points. Passive, defensive, reactionary, unwilling to take a stand, vote Cmega3 just to break the tie in his favor, etc.
Here, I'll even elaborate a bit. Frequently the majority of the town's suspicions reside in a few people. Elimination of these people, by whatever means, forces the town to move on to other targets. This is the most important function of the lynch, and vigkills can serve a similar purpose.I think this is bullshit but I don't think it's scum bullshit. I think we just have a very different view on how to effectively play this game. We can drop the point about how best to use vig-kills and lynches and take it up in the theory thread after the game.
What do you have to go back to?At the time of writing I hadn't started my voting analysis so it was an open question whether I'd have a case to go back to.
On one hand, you're arguing that I could be a third party Monster Hunter. The pattern in Supernatural games is to have third parties and the scum team be supernatural entities, and this has been extremely consistent throughout all Supernatural games. Now go look at what Persus13 said; he said there was nothing demonic or supernatural about the guy that attacked him. Whoever attacked him was town.
On the other hand, you're also voting me because I think vigilantes should be extremely aggressive in their choice of targets. This is not an opinion I change based on my alignment. It has no bearing on whether I am town or scum.
You have no case and you had no reason for voting me. There will be no coming back to your case at all since you do not have one.
You know what's not on this list?Riiiight, but I'm not voting you am I?
Your argument for me being scum. If you think there's a vampire scumteam then you cannot be fucking around voting anti-town people and third parties, no matter how dangerous and loose-cannony you think they are.
Unvote, notquitethere made an enormous misstep and I don't feel like letting him get away with it.
Nerjin is either scum or just a player unable to stand, being tossed helplessly around by the requests of each player interacting with him. In a sense I see him as almost being in Cmega3's boat - the same playing choices that seem so Scummy, I don't see him as being able to play out of the situation he is in (honestly or dishonestly - be he Town playing like this or Scum playing like this).
While I wouldn't mind either player having more time so I could get a stronger feel of their evolving play, I do view Nerjin as the scummiest, and of the three likely lynch targets today, he's my pick.
Okay, I didn't realise this. I've dropped the hunter issue anyhow but this changes things somewhat.Hunters can investigate as well as kill.This is not actually true - at least it is not actually always true.
[proof]
So only 50% of the Hunters this game has seen have had an inspect, and no hunter who has possessed an inspect yet could have gotten a positive result no matter how it was used.
Your second question is inaccurately reported: You ask us if a priest should use their resurrection power, and you report the answers as Yes/No Nerjin.You're quite right. In the spoilered section I just copied over my personal notes. I guess I was really interested in whether they thought my bringing Nerjin back was a good idea, but obviously wasn't the question I actually asked.
Finally, I would really like for you to explain your reasoning about this more clearly.I don't see the contradiction. Nerjin came to be town and I thought he would get his act into gear if he resurrected as town, and I had a strong incentive to use the power N1 before I get mislynched or night killed.
[snip]
If what I quote you as saying is your actual thinking, how do you correlated that to your stated decision to resurrect him given that you also said:
[snip]
The baseless speculation is about the inspect only, or do you refer to the question as well?Me apparently setting Nerjin up to be inspected to draw the heat away from me is a wild leap of the imagination that has no grounding.
You know I just realized I don't like what you are doing here.Figuring out whether my intuitions about how a town player would play a Vigilante Cop helped me see whether my suspicions were justifiable. Not wilfully mislynching people is an important component to playing this game effectively.
Scum want to kill important roles such as people with inspects and vig kills. If last night was a kill happy monster hunter, we know they would choose to kill before inspect, so making lists like this just helps scum find them faster. In the same vein people with inspects would generally prefer priests to save their power to use on them, so they can share their info if they get killed.
This sort of data mining provides nothing useful as far as finding scum, but is a subtle form of role fishing.
"Oh I'll just lynch the borderline player and bring him back if he is town, what could go wrong?"He began to play better. It's fine to disagree with me on this, but I thought it pro-town to take a chance at bringing back a town-player.
So was he playing well or now? Please, a little consistency.
Do you actually think I'm scum? I thought Jim might possibly be a town monster hunter but then he said something that I didn't expect any town-player to say, which seemed to rule him out as a town monster hunter but not as scum. I then thought to take some time to reflect on the game and so unvoted, and now I'm of the opinion that he may or may not be scum but he's certainly a loose cannon with some questionable ideas about how to play effectively (which is not something to vote someone for as it's independent of his alignment).Blah blah reasons blah blah text wallThat... Is actually a good point.
NQT was attacking somebody who seems to be the most likely suspect for as monster hunter for their night action preferences, rather than being scummy.
Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.
Back to Persus: Why assume a cult in the first place? Same for Caz.No night kill = cult. Though since Persus has claimed he was attacked, that's in doubt. Either A) There's a cult, B) Persus is lying (and thus scum) or C) Something strange has happened/a possibility I've missed. What do you think is going on, Tiruin?
That bugs me, Caz.Yeah, I was mislead there. I thought dreamwalkers could choose who to inspect. If it's just random, then there's no real way for us to figure out if he's still town or not. Annoying, but maybe we'll get lucky.
Dreamwalkers can't pick who to investigate, and we may have players who are not taking a night action or having any nocturnal experiences on that given night. For a dreamwalker, 'random and meaningless dreams', the result from an inspection on a player who received no PMs - that's always a possible result.
If he gives us that result we cannot verify his story - he won't even be able to tell us who had a peaceful night. And that doesn't prove anything about his honesty or role after resurrection.
If it's true that Persus is "still the lead runner," why wait until now to vote him?Votes don't matter until the day closes. Do you think it's the right strategy to vote as soon as you have someone who looks most likely to be scum, before the day's discussions have gone underway? I don't see the benefit.
Caz has continually referred to vampires as cult. I don't know why, but his posts only make sense if you make cult mean vampire so that's what I've been doing.There has been a vampire cult and a werewolf cult in Supernatural so far. The only non-cult vampire I've seen was the "Lone Vampire (survivor)". I guess there could be other flavours of cults too, but vampires are the ones that turn victims without actually having a kill. The werewolf cult had a kill on lynch iirc.
Why are you trying to eliminate a possibility out of hand? You're awfully eager to discourage discussion on that topic.We can still consider it, I was just leaving it to the side for the discussion at hand.
Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?
NQT: You're saying that you lynched Nerjin because you could bring him back if he was town? Don't you think it's a risky strategy? If you thought he could be town, why did you want to lynch him? Do you think Nerjin is still town now, or has his playstyle changed? From what I see, he's claiming to be lurky because he thought he was going to be dead and could focus on other games. What do you say to the possibility that he's lurking to keep out of what's happening here, and avoid suspicion?Risky? Yeah maybe. I thought he could be town or scum but was erring to scum, and I wasn't there for the hectic last six hours, if I was I might have changed my mind. I think Nerjin isn't convincing me that he is town.
Aha! Thanks, I'd accepted your silence as your answer. Here's the question again.I knew I missed it T_TTiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game. During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing! No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance.
Sexton - Charged with caring for the graveyard, he has much to do lately.I check back on
jakeread1 (town)So I'm a passive watcher-type.
You are a Sexton, responsible for the care taking of the town’s graveyard. A solemn job, but one you generally enjoy. And, if any of the graves are disturbed, you’ll be the first to know about it.
Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2? Why or why not?Yes! I would debate in the entirety of it with my cultmates and then, upon the decision of all, or at least the majority decision, will then announce my thoughts on the matter and ultimately lead to the reveal of my role.
@Tiruin:...And you say my vote on Caz is bogus? Wat.On that note, by the fact that you aren't--or not currently--addressing my other points mean that either you are evading the case, or all I say is true about you. Am I correct to infer such?I didn't have anything to say to anything else. I'm not really denying or accepting, but I can't take your word that Caz is a liar just because you say he is.
Explain concisely, why is Caz a liar (well either way, your vote on Caz is bogus)? I was mainly voting you because your vote in response to his question looked jumpy and now you seem to going down Caz's throat for uh, making a case on you?
@Toaster:You feel threatened by this? What's wrong with him caring?Toony:No, why do you care?I'm worried about Toaster thoughAre you a lyncher to me or something? You keep pointing a finger at me without backing it up with any solid facts or reasoning. See also:I had the thought of there being a Toaster/Jim scum team and that was very scary to ponder.
How shallow is your advance, sir. It's an FoS for a reason. "I suspect you, and I want you to know that". Not detailing it will also carry the same example given that the suspicion is visible ALWAYS in the pointer's eye, but visible only to others in tone and moreso in blue.Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.
Vote tracker doesn't show FoSes. You were jumping around to whoever was being pressured the most. It didn't look like you believed your own arguments because as soon as an easier target came along, you gave up your attack and jumped on the new one.
That someone attacked Persus and is neither a werewolf (or some kind of funny werewolf role that has to shift because werewolf and mythological full moon >.>), or the attacker is scum.Back to Persus: Why assume a cult in the first place? Same for Caz.No night kill = cult. Though since Persus has claimed he was attacked, that's in doubt. Either A) There's a cult, B) Persus is lying (and thus scum) or C) Something strange has happened/a possibility I've missed. What do you think is going on, Tiruin?
I skimmed that line while writing.Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.
Vote tracker doesn't show FoSes. You were jumping around to whoever was being pressured the most. It didn't look like you believed your own arguments because as soon as an easier target came along, you gave up your attack and jumped on the new one.
EBWOPI skimmed that line while writing.Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.
Vote tracker doesn't show FoSes. You were jumping around to whoever was being pressured the most. It didn't look like you believed your own arguments because as soon as an easier target came along, you gave up your attack and jumped on the new one.
I would LOVE to see you back that bolded part up with links and quotes, dear sir. Especially how the 'PRESSURED THE MOST' part relates.
Figuring out whether my intuitions about how a town player would play a Vigilante Cop helped me see whether my suspicions were justifiable.Well that runs counter intuitive to anything resembling logic.
He began to play better. It's fine to disagree with me on this, but I thought it pro-town to take a chance at bringing back a town-player.Not if you are a scum priest looking to boost your membership numbers. In such a situation it is very anti-town. Just because somebody was a town player doesn't mean they will be when they resurrect, so this argument that it is pro-town to bring any old town player back is bullshit.
Do you actually think I'm scum? I thought Jim might possibly be a town monster hunter but then he said something that I didn't expect any town-player to say, which seemed to rule him out as a town monster hunter but not as scum. I then thought to take some time to reflect on the game and so unvoted, and now I'm of the opinion that he may or may not be scum but he's certainly a loose cannon with some questionable ideas about how to play effectively (which is not something to vote someone for as it's independent of his alignment).Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...
I am vanilla town.to protect yourself.
PPE: NQT!I didn't bold this.
...Oh wow. I haven't been able to check on the full scope but..that's interesting.
Your basis for suspicion is on a vote pattern? Tunneling (did you check the context?) or the reasons behind the votes?
..In which I won't say I'm cult, of course. Just say I'm a Sexton, and that the general disappearance has left...a very suspicious trail. Probably peg it to scum. Probably peg it to third-party. All in all, I'm leaning on leaning to reveal my role-as whoever did it would be third-party or town. More chaos. More fun, as I'm a cultist.What am I reading?
Why cult instead of scum Sexton?
PFPAha! Thanks, I'd accepted your silence as your answer. Here's the question again.I think you messed up reading instead.Tiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game. During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing! No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance.
No night kill = cult.First off, can you please STOP USING CULT AMBIGUOUSLY. Cult can mean two vastly different things in a Supernatural.
Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...One problem with this argument. Vampire Lord has no other role. And last supernatural the second guy was a Vampire Slave which was essentially Vanilla Scum. So unless we're facing a non-Vamp scum-team, NQT couldn't be scum if he is a priest.
...So what cult are we all talking about?!No night kill = cult.First off, can you please STOP USING CULT AMBIGUOUSLY. Cult can mean two vastly different things in a Supernatural.
Secondly, allow me to fix your statement "No night kill = cult." It should mean "No night kill = cult (unless Persus was attacked by scum, or scum couldn'n't NK because of a guard."
Well that seems true for the last game, is it universally true for all supernaturals with vampires?Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...One problem with this argument. Vampire Lord has no other role. And last supernatural the second guy was a Vampire Slave which was essentially Vanilla Scum. So unless we're facing a non-Vamp scum-team, NQT couldn't be scum if he is a priest.
So what cult are we all talking about?!It depends on who is talking.
cult flavored mafia and a vampire flavored cult
Caz's day end lynch vote on Nerjin was an RVS vote!You're voting me because I ended up going for the same person I RVS'd? O_o How do you come to this conclusion?
Risky? Yeah maybe. I thought he could be town or scum but was erring to scum, and I wasn't there for the hectic last six hours, if I was I might have changed my mind. I think Nerjin isn't convincing me that he is town.So you voted just to break the tie?
There is no (very little at best) chance that we're facing a full blown cult here given SAID ATTACK, and the context behind cults.Could be 3rd party with a kill. Why are you so against the idea of a cult? Do you think it'd be better to lynch a 3rd party SK, or kill a cult member?
You say jumping. You lack linking. You lack poking at whatever I did say instead of the superficial note on what I generally seem to have said.
You also appropriately change your story just like ToonyMan. First, you say VOTE. Now, you just say 'jump to whoever'.
Evade more, scumbag.
And now that NQT brings on further evidence: Since when has your vote decided to stick on Nerjin given that point?
I can't even follow your arguments at this point. GG you glorious mentalist.Primitive defensive mechanism detected: Denial (Subversive).
I'm against the idea of a cult because someone did an attack and someone confirmed it. It's circumstantial evidence. Indirect proof given that-with general knowledge of cult-types lacking a factional NK-the attack was a scum-strike. Evil-but-not-demonic third party, perhaps. Or an overeager Town/possible Third-party(?) hunter as said before. Or probably a new role like an assassin (though it'd be weird that it isn't unblockable).There is no (very little at best) chance that we're facing a full blown cult here given SAID ATTACK, and the context behind cults.Could be 3rd party with a kill. Why are you so against the idea of a cult? Do you think it'd be better to lynch a 3rd party SK, or kill a cult member?
And now that NQT brings on further evidence: Since when has your vote decided to stick on Nerjin given that point?
I'll annoyingly cut in for him: You really, really, didn't change your vote, ever.Caz's day end lynch vote on Nerjin was an RVS vote!You're voting me because I ended up going for the same person I RVS'd? O_o How do you come to this conclusion?
No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.Err..Persus, what're you doing?
Oh no guys sorry.Please do so D: I've checked the lurkertracker and..well, I see very little effort from you. Wait, sounding too authoritarian. Restating.
Been extremely busy and up 'til now haven't had much rest.
In fact, I'll have few tim to post over the weekend but I'll try to make up for this as soon as I can.
What? Since I had the time and opportunity to try and pressure Cmega3 into posting instead of voting my scum pick I took that opportunity and it worked, hopefully. I'll switch my vote back to Caz when Cmega3 posts, hopefully.No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
[...]Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.Err..Persus, what're you doing?
So to paraphrase, my post convinced you that x is scum, which matches your reads on the populace? Or do you have other suspects prior to my post?Ahem.
post where I've listed some of my suspects.
I've recorded the reasons behind each vote. I know from my wider research that scum general vote for a lower proportion of the players. Caz has only had two votes in the game, and one was a RVS that he kept on to lynch. Nerjin. Max is also very scummy and has been tunnelling throughout the entirety of the game. I'm still deciding which of the two is scummier by this metric.
...Oh wow. I haven't been able to check on the full scope but..that's interesting.
Your basis for suspicion is on a vote pattern? Tunneling (did you check the context?) or the reasons behind the votes?
Also..NQT. Really. Do not link to other parts of the forum unless they're directly attached to how you suspect people--if so, its best to say it in your own words. Why do you do that? :/Why? It's only against the rules to refer to ongoing games. I like to link to things when I want to show that I'm not just making things up.
For a start, it's not about how to play a vigilante, Jim mischaracterised what I was asking: it's about how to play a Vig-Cop, which is quite different. Second, there can be reasonable differences about how to play a role and unreasonable claims (if someone claimed town jailkeepers should never act just in case they hit a cop or something of the like I'd be equally suspicious), and I wanted to clear up how reasonable it was. I discovered that most players disagree with Jim on how to play a vigilante-cop, but I've also discovered that the monster hunter's inspect isn't anywhere near as universally useful as I'd thought. I've dropped it as an issue.
Well that runs counter intuitive to anything resembling logic.
If you accept that your intuitions about how a town player might play vig is different from standard, then you have to cede that other peoples intuitions about the best way to play vig might also differ, so you can't claim that somebodies choice of how to play the role justifies any sort of suspicion.
That's cute Max, but that exactly what I didn't do. I haven't pressed a related lynch though there was potential support (almost no one agreed with Jim). Town hunting is important too so I don't see what your rolefishing accusation amounts to.
All you could hope to achieve from your census is to either gauge how much popular support you might get from a lynch before forcing your case, or some good old fashion role fishing.
Okay, so it's not impossible that a scum priest would resurrect Nerjin (I think it unlikely) but this possibility says nothing about my actual alignment.
Not if you are a scum priest looking to boost your membership numbers. In such a situation it is very anti-town. Just because somebody was a town player doesn't mean they will be when they resurrect, so this argument that it is pro-town to bring any old town player back is bullshit.
Then you're a lot more dense than I gave you credit! Actually, that's not fair. You're probably scum or third-party put in the unenviable position of having to invent bullshit cases. My condolences! I'm glad you think I'm such a mafia mastermind that if I were a vampire lord I'd have the raw cunning to bread-crumb priest in my second post of the game. I often breadcrumb my roles: I did the same as the pro-town cop in WC3. They're not cryptic clues, but rather confirmation that I'm not just making stuff up as it comes to me later on in the game. The reason I want people to see me as a vanilla townie is, now I've use my one-shot, I am a vanilla townie. That so hard to comprehend?
Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...
I am vanilla town.
to protect yourself.
I think there's a lot of dumb ideas about how to play that float around. A lot of things that get called scumtells but really aren't. Jim may be a loose cannon, but I'm a maverick. It's not surprising that there's legitimate disagreement on how best to play.
As for Jims opinion on monster hunters, I might not agree with him, but he is one of the more senior players here, and you are going to say he has "some questionable ideas about how to play effectively"? Interesting...
Well that seems true for the last game, is it universally true for all supernaturals with vampires?Do you not for a moment think that the considerable unlikeliness amounts to anything? 1/3rd of the players might be hyper-cautious ghouls. Is it likely? No.
Also there is still the possibility that there is a normal mafia with a night kill (cultist). There are still too many possibilities to rule him out.
You're voting me because I ended up going for the same person I RVS'd? O_o How do you come to this conclusion?Your voting pattern was very suspicious. You parked your RVS vote and never bothered to press anyone else with the threat of a lynch. At what stage did Nerjin shift from a weightless RVS vote to a lynch vote?
So you voted just to break the tie?My vote on Nerjin was there for quite a few days before the end of the day: I voted him for his lack of visible scum hunting.
Probably won't be able to get a post in early tomorrow, but I hope so. I guess I'm the pick of the day or something. It's probably the best for town seeing as I don't have many useful abilities and am kind of on the weak side of figuring out who's who. It's been fun though, peace and coconuts etc.What the duck?! Don't just roll over. If you're town then make us reconsider and present a stronger case. If you want town to win this you can't let mislynches just happen. You impressed me with your engagedness on Day 1. Do you really think Persus is scum? Convince me
Due to the Forum basically being down all day, I'm Extending the day to ~5pm Pacific MondayThank god. I'll try to do a post this weekend.
The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum. However S3 started with a Vampire Warlock. Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.Well that seems true for the last game, is it universally true for all supernaturals with vampires?Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...One problem with this argument. Vampire Lord has no other role. And last supernatural the second guy was a Vampire Slave which was essentially Vanilla Scum. So unless we're facing a non-Vamp scum-team, NQT couldn't be scum if he is a priest.
Also there is still the possibility that there is a normal mafia with a night kill (cultist). There are still too many possibilities to rule him out.
Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.
The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum.
ImpPersus, would you answer this question please?That described the masked swordsman.Persus13:a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?
1. First of, if NQT was town, claiming priest when he isn't one makes no sense to me at all. Secondly, if NQT was scum, fake-claiming as priest who rezzed Nerjin seems extremely dangerous. So I think that NQT's claim of priest is true.Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.
I'll be posting more later, but this caught my eye (again) and I wanted to ask about it.
What makes it certain that NQT could not be a vampire lord, or could not be any other role? Are you taking his claim of priest given Nerjin's resurrection and the absence of a counterclaim as absolute proof that NQT is priest (and that Leaders don't have other roles?)
So I was wrong about S2 and S5. My bad, thanks for clarifying. S1, Werewolf Leader wasn't a town role, so my argument still stands there. In the majority of Supernatural games and in all of the vampire ones, leaders have not had town roles. NQT could be a scum priest, but it's far more likely he's a non-vampire scum priest than a vampire priest.The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum.
That is incorrect. The only Leaders the other S games have seen that lacked a 'special power' were the Vampire lords of S3 and S4 - who did have a special power, conversion. All of the other Leaders had special powers and two of them had a town role type power.
To clarify on my attack. I hid in a corner, the guy broke into the room, I attacked before he spotted me, but it said he had good instincts and blocked. Then we fought for a while.Hmm, now that this is in view, perhaps 'good instincts' meant 'able to find someone hiding after a few seconds in order to cause surprise or disbelief and the victim to assume the person is trained to attack or had the intention to kill rather than an accidental entry'?
But he unvoted you. He explained his reasons and acted on it. Where are you going with this now?
This obviously wasn't an admission, and why do you list voting Cmega to tie the vote when he clearly unvoted before day's end in the section you quoted?
Riiiight, but I'm not voting you am I?
I then thought to take some time to reflect on the game and so unvoted, and now I'm of the opinion that he may or may not be scum but he's certainly a loose cannon with some questionable ideas about how to play effectively (which is not something to vote someone for as it's independent of his alignment).
NQT: What do you hope to gain from your "kill versus inspect" questioning? Same for the "res y/n?"
In general, I'd like to see where you are going next.
Max and Caz did well on the questioning test but have only pressed one lynch case on one person in the entire game. This clear lack of genuine suspicion and reluctance to draw negative attention is not a town trait.
No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
Everyone (and especially Jim, who I know won't answer unless asked directly) I see something odd about Persus13's recounting of his attack. It's a detail that makes me believe it happened, because it's downright weird - and I'd like to get people's opinions on that weirdness and what it might mean.
He says that his attacker was described as having great instincts.
To clarify on my attack. I hid in a corner, the guy broke into the room, I attacked before he spotted me, but it said he had good instincts and blocked. Then we fought for a while.
The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum. However S3 started with a Vampire Warlock. Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.
Because of this, it is possible for NQT to be vampire, and Leader, and have a Scum teammate who is a priest -which would allow him to 'breadcrumb' priest with complete confidence and an ability to 'prove it' as long as his priest doesn't die before he or she can res someone.Oh not you as well. Do you really think it's plausible that I could learn of a team mate having a priest role and decide to collude with them in bread-crumbing it all in the first hour of playing the game? It's not logically impossible, but it's not very plausible either.
Everyone (and especially Jim, who I know won't answer unless asked directly) I see something odd about Persus13's recounting of his attack. It's a detail that makes me believe it happened, because it's downright weird - and I'd like to get people's opinions on that weirdness and what it might mean.That's not odd at all. It's just sounds like Meph's way of explaining how the attacker got away. Small details like that make the claim more believable.
He says that his attacker was described as having great instincts.
If it's to my case in general: He cast a vote for weak reasons, and then withdrew it. The latter does not excuse the former. Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him? He says he likes to base cases on genuine reads n' shit but voting for me because I disagree with him about how a vigilante should operate seems to contradict that.Jim you're super over-reacting. It was an early Day 2 vote, you said something suspicious, I voted you to press it a bit more then later unvoted in favour of doing more comprehensive reads. Now you're just making shit up: I unvoted you before you voted me. Your behaviour since has only made you come across as scummier. On a lynch-all-liars basis, my vote is going back to you: Jim.
How many times do I have to explain? I thought what you said was pro-scum, I talked to the other players about it and realised it was something a loose-cannon-type town player might say. I also wanted to get a better read on the game. Now you've actually stooped to lying to support your case I can't in earnest vote anyone else.I then thought to take some time to reflect on the game and so unvoted, and now I'm of the opinion that he may or may not be scum but he's certainly a loose cannon with some questionable ideas about how to play effectively (which is not something to vote someone for as it's independent of his alignment).How come you didn't recognize this when you cast your vote?
Also, you never answered this question from Toaster. I only ask because I'm interested in the same information.Sorry I missed this Toaster: from the kill vs. inspect question I wanted to know whether Jim's suggested way of playing a Hunter was a pro-scum thing to say. It turned out that the Hunter inspect is a lot less useful than I previously thought, undermining the value of the question. I wanted to know whether I'd done the right thing in resurrecting Nerjin. Most people thought not, though many didn't thing the Priest should never resurrect. From there I proceeded to do my normal vote analysis, from which I found Caz and Max the most suspicious. And then Jim openly lied about our interactions so I put my vote back on him (as lying about your lynch target is a more concrete scum act than general patterns of voting).NQT: What do you hope to gain from your "kill versus inspect" questioning? Same for the "res y/n?"
In general, I'd like to see where you are going next.
I can get asking other people for their opinions. What I don't get is the tabulation of their responses either in favor of or against. The only reason you would do that is if you were trying to prove something. I can only assume it was about your case on me, because what else could it have been about.I clearly didn't use the tabulation to build a case against you. I tabulated so people could have access to the same information I was working with. Let's be clear now as well: my current case against you is not anything to do with how you'd play a Hunter, it's because you lied to Tiruin about your vote on me and town never have a good reason to lie to press a lynch.
This is, like, so dumb. It emphasizes quantity over quality.As I explained in my analytical post, I thought Max was town on Day1 because he questioned a lot of people in the game and appeared quite engaged. Later when I did my full vote analysis, I realised that he'd only ever pressed one lynch case. At the moment, I'm pretty sure you're both some variant of scum or third-party.
I make no statement of the quality of their cases, but I point out that yesterday you believed Max White was town for pushing his single case. Now you FoS him.
What gives, brometheus?
Anyways, if the scumteam really is Vampires, then the most effective strategy to find him is to role confirm as many people as not Vampire Lords as possible, and then work within this narrowed-down list.So you admit that I can't be a Vampire Lord, and then say the best strategy is to vote a narrowed-down list of of not_vampire Lords, and still decide to try to lynch me anyway? Just hedging your bets that it isn't vampires? Or is because you already know who the scum team is, so why bother trying to actually hunt scum?
ToonyMan: Read back on Caz. Report back. What is your read. What has been your read on me and him.Yeah yeah, I see now. Caz accusing you of vote-hopping wasn't true (which is scummy). However your reaction to their vote and how you're reacting now screams THEY'RE WRONG THEY'RE WRONG I MUST PROVE THEY'RE WRONG TO SURVIVE which I find pretty desperate.
Why or how couldn't you relate what you just said earlier. Like, in my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743941#msg4743941)
Wait hold on did NQT really unvote before Jim said that? I don't really have time to check...
I want to give the game the game a proper look over before I push a Day 2 case in earnest, so unvote for now, but I might be back.
Unvote, notquitethere made an enormous misstep and I don't feel like letting him get away with it.
If it's to my case in general: He cast a vote for weak reasons, and then withdrew it. The latter does not excuse the former. Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him?
@Toaster:Toony:No, why do you care?I'm worried about Toaster thoughAre you a lyncher to me or something? You keep pointing a finger at me without backing it up with any solid facts or reasoning. See also:I had the thought of there being a Toaster/Jim scum team and that was very scary to ponder.
If it's true that Persus is "still the lead runner," why wait until now to vote him?Votes don't matter until the day closes. Do you think it's the right strategy to vote as soon as you have someone who looks most likely to be scum, before the day's discussions have gone underway? I don't see the benefit.
Caz's day end lynch vote on Nerjin was an RVS vote!You're voting me because I ended up going for the same person I RVS'd? O_o How do you come to this conclusion?
Figuring out whether my intuitions about how a town player would play a Vigilante Cop helped me see whether my suspicions were justifiable. Not wilfully mislynching people is an important component to playing this game effectively.
I'm a maverick.
Toaster: from the kill vs. inspect question I wanted to know whether Jim's suggested way of playing a Hunter was a pro-scum thing to say. It turned out that the Hunter inspect is a lot less useful than I previously thought, undermining the value of the question. I wanted to know whether I'd done the right thing in resurrecting Nerjin. Most people thought not, though many didn't thing the Priest should never resurrect. From there I proceeded to do my normal vote analysis, from which I found Caz and Max the most suspicious. And then Jim openly lied about our interactions so I put my vote back on him (as lying about your lynch target is a more concrete scum act than general patterns of voting).
Everyone (and especially Jim, who I know won't answer unless asked directly) I see something odd about Persus13's recounting of his attack. It's a detail that makes me believe it happened, because it's downright weird - and I'd like to get people's opinions on that weirdness and what it might mean.
He says that his attacker was described as having great instincts.
Guys, I may have to leave. Sorry. I just can't seem to keep up with this.
:'(
@Tiruin:What do you do when you see someone attempting, or in the least, erring when addressing you and seemingly provoking you passive-aggressively? Meaning: Denouncing you and your work?ToonyMan: Read back on Caz. Report back. What is your read. What has been your read on me and him.Yeah yeah, I see now. Caz accusing you of vote-hopping wasn't true (which is scummy). However your reaction to their vote and how you're reacting now screams THEY'RE WRONG THEY'RE WRONG I MUST PROVE THEY'RE WRONG TO SURVIVE which I find pretty desperate.
Why or how couldn't you relate what you just said earlier. Like, in my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743941#msg4743941)
Tiruin, you yap at Caz for not following your case....Wow, when I asked for insight, I never knew I'd be hurt this bad.
I can't follow it either.
I sort of get that it's because he said you hopped targets when you really hadn't. Is that the gist of it?
D'aw, fish. :IGuys, I may have to leave. Sorry. I just can't seem to keep up with this.
:'(
That's unfortunate. I'd rather see you try to catch up and keep playing, but we can see about getting a replacement for you.
A masked man with a sword is most likely a hunter. Hunters can investigate as well as kill. So, if we believe Persus, we have a monster hunter that's trigger-happy enough to kill someone without investigating them first. If they're town, they'd be someone that genuinely thought Persus is scum and the only person that fits that description is Jim.
A scum monster-hunter wouldn't be completely out of the question but I'm struggling to think which scum-team it would fit with. Is a third-party hunter compatible with the pre-existing supernatural game templates? The other option is Persus is lying, perhaps to discourage night kills.
Jim— is Persus so suspicious that he'd be worth killing without investigating first?
JimIf it's to my case in general: He cast a vote for weak reasons, and then withdrew it. The latter does not excuse the former. Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him? He says he likes to base cases on genuine reads n' shit but voting for me because I disagree with him about how a vigilante should operate seems to contradict that.Jim you're super over-reacting. It was an early Day 2 vote, you said something suspicious, I voted you to press it a bit more then later unvoted in favour of doing more comprehensive reads. Now you're just making shit up: I unvoted you before you voted me. Your behaviour since has only made you come across as scummier. On a lynch-all-liars basis, my vote is going back to you: Jim.
Sorry I missed this Toaster: from the kill vs. inspect question I wanted to know whether Jim's suggested way of playing a Hunter was a pro-scum thing to say. It turned out that the Hunter inspect is a lot less useful than I previously thought, undermining the value of the question. I wanted to know whether I'd done the right thing in resurrecting Nerjin. Most people thought not, though many didn't thing the Priest should never resurrect. From there I proceeded to do my normal vote analysis, from which I found Caz and Max the most suspicious. And then Jim openly lied about our interactions so I put my vote back on him (as lying about your lynch target is a more concrete scum act than general patterns of voting).
I clearly didn't use the tabulation to build a case against you. I tabulated so people could have access to the same information I was working with. Let's be clear now as well: my current case against you is not anything to do with how you'd play a Hunter, it's because you lied to Tiruin about your vote on me and town never have a good reason to lie to press a lynch.
So you admit that I can't be a Vampire Lord, and then say the best strategy is to vote a narrowed-down list of of not_vampire Lords, and still decide to try to lynch me anyway? Just hedging your bets that it isn't vampires? Or is because you already know who the scum team is, so why bother trying to actually hunt scum?
...Wow, when I asked for insight, I never knew I'd be hurt this bad.
No its ok its just me and...my stuffs. Sorry about that.....Wow, when I asked for insight, I never knew I'd be hurt this bad.
I meant no offense or harm. I'm sorry if I caused either.
Hardly: if you look at the stats most people agreed with me about how to play the hunter, and that doesn't even figure into my current case.Figuring out whether my intuitions about how a town player would play a Vigilante Cop helped me see whether my suspicions were justifiable. Not wilfully mislynching people is an important component to playing this game effectively.See, no, I don't buy that. It looks a heck of a lot more like you're trying to make sure your argument is popular before committing to it- especially since you backed off it when it started looking unpopular.
Spoiler: ? (click to show/hide)
This doesn't really help your argument. However, that's quite the interesting catch. I'd like to hear Jim clarify that one.What doesn't help what argument? Let's be clear here: I no longer give a monkey's about Jim's stance on vigilante cops. I'd stopped voting him and moved on to what I thought a more likely target. Then Jim proceeded to lie about our interaction, which I take it we agree is a reasonable cause for concern.
I wonder if I should just replace out for someone better in this modus of language here.Don't be absurd, you're fine Tiruin: you're usually one of the better players on the forum. You're very focused on Caz right now but if you had to rank all the players in order of scumminess, what would that look like?
notquitethere, it just occurred to me that you were doing some heinous rolefishing.I was only stating what should be obvious to everyone. Also, figuring out who is most likely town is very useful in scumhunting. Like I'd expect a hunter to come out and claim? I wouldn't want that to happen at this stage of the game and I wasn't looking for that to happen. I was openly speculating on the possibilities inherent in Persus' claim. Trying to make sense of it, working out whether it was plausible.
If you were town, why on earth would you think it was a good idea to out the person you thought was the Monster Hunter? Because you didn't know for sure and wanted confirmation so you'd know who to kill/convert.
It's not a lie, it's a stupid mistake. Clearly you would back off before being voted since that's what happened and I was in error, but voting me because of my opinion on how to play vigilante is still junk and something you should not have done.Okay, I admit I should have merely FOS'd you: I thought it was suspicious, I asked others about it and reflected some and unvoted. Jim this whole game is about forming suspicions that might be incorrect and it takes a good town player to admit their mistakes and change their votes. Voting me for what I've since recanted is absurd. So I'm not allowed to make a mistake and take it back but you're allowed to make a 'stupid mistake' and it's all rosy? You're not just a liar, you're a hypocrite too. Tell me, why did you say that to Toaster? Why did you invent details to reinforce your faith in my lynch?
This seems perfectly reasonable. I, too, consult popular opinion whenever I make an accusation that could be considered controversial. I, too, also expect everyone to let it blow over, since scumhunting by democracy is a perfectly reasonable approach.Well I'm glad we're on the same page here: so why the paranoid OMGUS on me?
Clearly clearly obviously clearly clearly. You say clearly when it's not really the case.Most other players are lazier about looking at information. Also, I was signalling that I gave a damn about the responses and wasn't just asking questions for kicks. I clearly didn't use the information to build a case against you and I'm not sure why you're continuing to suggest otherwise.
The information about who agreed/disagreed is already available since people can read the thread. This doesn't answer my question why you would tabulate the responses.
Apparently you missed the part where I'm voting you for lack of a better target.Uh huh, and do you expect to find a better target? Look, I think we both agree in the value of scumhunting by diplomacy, so why not tell me your current scum-ranking of the other players?
Whether or not the scumteam is Vampires, lynching scum is still a necessary task, so the vote is not wasted just because you're not the Vampire Lord.
Yep, I thought the day was about to end and at that point in time was more willing to see Caz lynched than NQT or a no lynch. Sortof like you and several others did with Nerjin. It was also the only I could access the Mafia forum that day even if Bay12 hadn't gone down.No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
This is a bandwagon vote.
That you quickly reversed.
But still a bandwagon.
I'm sorry, but how does me providing previous knowledge on Vampires mean I'm town or at least, not scum?The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum. However S3 started with a Vampire Warlock. Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.
Argh, dammit. This is true. If Vampires are our scum team then finding the Vampire Lord is top priority.
For lack of a better target I'm going to continue voting notquitethere, until as such time the existence of a Vampire scumteam is more or less proven, or a more likely target appears, whichever comes first.
This also rules out Persus13. sigh I'm just SOL on all my targets.
Everyone else, Jim has clearly lied in his response to Toaster to back up his weak case: he just said that "Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him?" when in fact I had already unvoted when he voted me. Why would a town player need to lie to support their lynch target? Jim is scum and must die tonight.Your basing your case on Jim on one sentence that could be a mistake? I've messed up at least twice this game and no one except Caz thinks I'm scum at the moment. I think you're overreacting to his point.
(why vote Caz certain he's scum and then immediately vote someone else?)Here's a hint.
No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.When I get back several hours later. I find this.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
Due to the Forum basically being down all day, I'm Extending the day to ~5pm Pacific MondayI realize I have extra time and so do this.
Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.
TiruinNyeh, tunneling looks like the best word, sans the malice intended, because:I wonder if I should just replace out for someone better in this modus of language here.Don't be absurd, you're fine Tiruin: you're usually one of the better players on the forum. You're very focused on Caz right now but if you had to rank all the players in order of scumminess, what would that look like?
Caz-overconfident and has made lots of assumptions from thin air (almost as if he has information that we don't). Pursuing a case against Tiruin based on said assumptions (lies, whatever). Posts haven't made sense despite some efforts to clear up. Attacked various others also based on assumptions. Voted strange D1. Has dropped of the face of the earth.
Cmega3-erratic voting and buddying of me D1
Toaster-Kleril acting oddly opening of D1. Kleril also buddied Cmega. Toaster jumped onto the Nerjin bandwagon at the perfect time and provided the momentum to get others to vote him. Voted Caz but attacking other people.
NQT-Rolefishing slightly. A little overly defensive, although that may be because three people are attacking him.
Imp-Lurking and hasn't really contributed a lot to the game besides several outside the box ideas.
Max-Has voted a grand total of one person the entire game. without a single FOS.
Toonyman-Not sure
Nerjin-majorly lurking
Jim-NQT has a point but seems town to me.
Tiruin-also unsure.
Perses-Knight, poor town if attacked by monster hunter.
People I'd love to hear from (aka Lurkers):
Nerjin
Caz
Imp
Now you want my scum picks (these are sort of greatest to least)
Caz-overconfident and has made lots of assumptions from thin air (almost as if he has information that we don't). Pursuing a case against Tiruin based on said assumptions (lies, whatever). Posts haven't made sense despite some efforts to clear up. Attacked various others also based on assumptions. Voted strange D1. Has dropped of the face of the earth.Where and what do you see @bolded portion?
Jim:What about now-this-time compared to that point in time? Has the idea still stuck?Yep, I thought the day was about to end and at that point in time was more willing to see Caz lynched than NQT or a no lynch. Sortof like you and several others did with Nerjin. It was also the only I could access the Mafia forum that day even if Bay12 hadn't gone down.No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
This is a bandwagon vote.
That you quickly reversed.
But still a bandwagon.
The Scribe's Tally Sheet...*day ends when I sleep~~
Caz: Toaster, Persus13, Tiruin
Jim Groovester: notquitethere
Toaster: ToonyMan
notquitethere: Jim Groovester, Max White
Persus13: Caz
Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (~8 hours)
Your basing your case on Jim on one sentence that could be a mistake? I've messed up at least twice this game and no one except Caz thinks I'm scum at the moment. I think you're overreacting to his point.It seems like pretty flagrant misrepresentation to me. Even if we take his 'mistake' at face value, what he says is bloody dubious: he admits to voting me to get me to back off: i.e. not because he genuinely thinks I'm scum (he's since admitted I'm a vote for wont of a better target) but because I was pressuring him. He essentially admits to OMGUSing. I don't think I'm particularly prone to over-reacting (I wasn't that bothered in the short-run that he'd voted me: we should all suspect each other) but the fact that he can't even get his basic facts straight. Let us also not forget that when he voted me he said he didn't feel like letting me 'get away with' my mistake, but now he's upset that I'm pulling him up on a supposed mistake. Not strike you as a little bit suspicious?
Day was supposed to end November 8 at 5 PM Mod TimeAh okay, the nearly-end-of-day thing makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the scum picks. I think... I hope everyone get their's in before the end of the game.
This post was an hour before day end and the first and last time I could get on the computer before day end on that day because I went to see my school's play. At that point in time the two lynch candidates were you and Caz. At that point in time I had no read on you and thought Caz was scum for multiple reasons.
So I'm..having a narrow vision at best, but I've scummies there - people I'm MAKING SURE OF. Checking back though, as my thoughts are...confuddled by the recent events (discussion on cults in relation to the attacker on Persus--I do believe Persus is INNOCENT though, and that he got the NK is the best idea in my mind at the momentInteresting that you're seemingly so sure about Persus' innocence. Generally, scum are the most sure in declaring their fellows as definitely innocent, as, after all, they already know it to be true.
also vampire cults and vampires...I really doubt Supernatural 6 would be 'just a recycled game state'. Meph is creative.)
Though I'm curious, NQT. You sound a bit jumpy in regard to people err'ing in their posts. Why so? Also on that list, is it for a base-line for future actions or perhaps something else?I don't think I'm particularly jumpy. Jim's vote is on me, making me a prime lynch candidate all day. Instead of fairly assessing what I'm saying, he invents things (he can call it a 'mistake' but why hasn't he moved his vote?) and complains about me not backing off (as if that's what town players should do!). Don't you think that that's a little bit suspicious?
TiruinAnd it is interesting how you miss how I debate Persus' innocence--is there anything wrong with how I see him and give the situation? The lack of a NK-therein pops in a claimant who is a Knight, of all people (t'would be a riskier notion of its a wizard or whatever, but a knight) along with details on the attack (attacker is human. Not a vampire [I did not read in the vampire stuff in that SP game] judging by how he's armed with a sword and obviously masked [Oh sure let's get on with identity.]), I say that he's believable.So I'm..having a narrow vision at best, but I've scummies there - people I'm MAKING SURE OF. Checking back though, as my thoughts are...confuddled by the recent events (discussion on cults in relation to the attacker on Persus--I do believe Persus is INNOCENT though, and that he got the NK is the best idea in my mind at the momentInteresting that you're seemingly so sure about Persus' innocence. Generally, scum are the most sure in declaring their fellows as definitely innocent, as, after all, they already know it to be true.
also vampire cults and vampires...I really doubt Supernatural 6 would be 'just a recycled game state'. Meph is creative.)
Generally, scum are the most sure in declaring their fellows as definitely innocent, as, after all, they already know it to be true....Or said person uses logic, yeah. All logicians declare with the purpose of knowledge, and scum know more knowledge than most, therefore all logicians are scum.
I don't think I'm particularly jumpy. Jim's vote is on me, making me a prime lynch candidate all day. Instead of fairly assessing what I'm saying, he invents things (he can call it a 'mistake' but why hasn't he moved his vote?) and complains about me not backing off (as if that's what town players should do!). Don't you think that that's a little bit suspicious?I'd regard it with suspicion, obviously. However I'd poke more on him and argue the matter with him instead of being a tattle-tale. Nobody likes a tattle-tale. In the means of how you're being such, though, is what's attracting my attention--will read up more on it given its..particular effect.
Are you saying by their omission in your list that you have no read at all on Imp or Nerjin despite the fact that they've not voted at all all day and we're nearly at the end (and they've been active in other games)? Interesting.
CAZ Are you really going to lie over or are you going to get in here and post? You better not be town because if you are I'll be seriously disappointed in you.I'd love to hear what you think of him, by the way. Given our spirited duel and the partaking of masks and feints, how do you see me as in regard to him [and vice versa], and him in regard to his actions?
I'm going to throw an extend out there if we have them left: I want to hear everyone's scum picks before we go to the lynch.
@Tiruin:Good point, however if I did put that label on your case as superficial, it would amount to quite everything thus far you've said towards me, wouldn't it?
You shouldn't be wasting so much time counter arguing me if my case is superficial.
I'm going to throw an extend out there if we have them left: I want to hear everyone's scum picks before we go to the lynch.
Thanks for sealing in my doubts. Instead of asking to restate or inquire on what exact portion is confusing you, you fall back on one of the less obvious, yet still apparent, methods of denial. I am open for all queries regarding my accusations of you, and all I get is a backhand and a discarding handwave.
The others I'm suspicious of are Cmega and Caz. ... Caz hasn't been making much sense today so he seems scummy. He also seems to be overconfident and making two many assumptions, almost like he knows things about other people for certain.
Waste of time. We should be asking ourselves
Vote tracker doesn't show FoSes. You were jumping around to whoever was being pressured the most. It didn't look like you believed your own arguments because as soon as an easier target came along, you gave up your attack and jumped on the new one.
NQT: You're saying that you lynched Nerjin because you could bring him back if he was town? Don't you think it's a risky strategy? If you thought he could be town, why did you want to lynch him? Do you think Nerjin is still town now, or has his playstyle changed? From what I see, he's claiming to be lurky because he thought he was going to be dead and could focus on other games. What do you say to the possibility that he's lurking to keep out of what's happening here, and avoid suspicion?
"Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."
Imp
Oh not you as well. Do you really think it's plausible that I could learn of a team mate having a priest role and decide to collude with them in bread-crumbing it all in the first hour of playing the game? It's not logically impossible, but it's not very plausible either.
Medium lean Scum - but seems to be trying to offer self as target - if so, protecting who and why? Caz seems likeliest target to protect.Why would I try to protect Caz? I thought he was most likely scum. And before you ask, I also thought Jim was most likely scum too and that's why my vote was on him.
Your argument has been wholly refuted by the end of day 2: I had withdrawn my initial suspicions because I had come to the conclusion that Jim's position wasn't necessarily indicative of him being scum.Blah blah reasons blah blah text wallThat... Is actually a good point.
NQT was attacking somebody who seems to be the most likely suspect for as monster hunter for their night action preferences, rather than being scummy.
Imp— you presented no cases yesterday and then voted the vote-leader when there was no possible other alternative....She did so in her closing post. She rationalized several cases-and my own (which does confirm I was being silly confusing) and then remarked on how the focus dwindled until she felt satisfied to hit the vote button down.
Jim— Do you think the scum team had two priests on it?...And you're FoS'ing Jim along with asking him a pertinent question? Isn't that counterproductive?[/transparency]
Toaster and Tiruin for their very longstanding cases against Caz get many town points in my eyes. There's no good reason why they'd have pursued those cases for so long (yeah, yeah, to seem town, but really that kind of early-form bussing is usually counterproductive). Persus hopped on and off the Caz-wagon, but I'm not sure I'd draw any strong conclusions either way from that.While I'd LOOOOVE to say..well, keep silent and let this slide and be happy at myself, I'd point something out that I'd do the same as scum if scum, and town if town--meaning: If someone does such an act as doing a really technical error at me, then I'd hunt 'em out regardless.
Max— You sheeped Jim's vote and left it there with this as your argument:Your argument has been wholly refuted by the end of day 2: I had withdrawn my initial suspicions because I had come to the conclusion that Jim's position wasn't necessarily indicative of him being scum.Blah blah reasons blah blah text wallThat... Is actually a good point.
NQT was attacking somebody who seems to be the most likely suspect for as monster hunter for their night action preferences, rather than being scummy.
Well my turn to claim today. I'm a Seer, capable of detecting if a player is benign or malevolent. I'm not exactly sure how that works for third parties though......Malevolent? That means he's evil, right? Or you're detecting their intent?
Last night I found Persus13 to be malevolent.
For those wondering night 1 I did inspect NQT and found him benign. It was enough to convince me to rethink my stance, at least in regards to his day 1 play, but then he started role fishing and wanting to lynch somebody for being a Monster Hunter, and apparently inspects come before converts making him as potentially scum as anybody else... Then Caz flipped cult instead of vampire and it kind of settled that.Could'ja expound on how the detection works, Max? And the bolded part settles..what? Caz discussed vampire cult as far as I remember back in D2.
Illusionist - A mage whose mastery of light and shadow can use misdirection to help or harm.Does the illusion work on everything?
Jim— Do you think the scum team had two priests on it?
EBWOP: I may be ocnfusing the OP but Seer = Sage, right?
Mystic - Mystics can pierce the veil of reality to discover hidden truths. Seer, Oracles, and Fortune Tellers are all varieties of Mystic.Eh, I'm blind.
And each night I can check if a player is town or scum, excluding third parties, but the way it works is that I get to find out what they started the night as, not what they ended the night as, meaning if somebody was converted on the same night I inspect them I read them as town due to night action order, but that was only relevant until Caz flipped and revealed there is no conversion so NQT would still be town... Just crappy town....How did you get the bolded part? The flavor dictates that he died as a priest. Meaning he could either resurrect, or..convert instead(?), given the dying words. Any flavor of your sight on Persus?
And no, seer is not sage, seer is a type of mystic. I'm the supernatural version of a cop.
Nice to see that my analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4748725#msg4748725) was vindicated— I said Caz was scum and he was.NOW I'm sure I'm getting something but I'm..skeptical.
Caz seemed to have given up, but it's interesting that his final vote was on Persus, Jim's Day 1 target.
It's apparent now that there are two killing roles in the game: can cult's kill as well as convert? A monsterhunter probably offed Nerjin, which is legitimate given his non-existent Day 2 play. Or possibly a hunter killed Cmega as was nonparticipating too much to be valuable to town and scum killed Nerjin, afraid of the possible third-party threat and figuring, worst case, they kill a townie. Just speculation though as there's too many possibilities, especially now Meph has confirmed there's a mystery role.
But I'm reading up on why people would mention a cult in the first place. Is this..some kind of foreshadowing or just guessing out? WIFOM territory, perhaps, but I'm looking back into the game to check on where the roots come from.A lot of previous Supernatural games have had cults so it was probably a reasonable thing to discuss. It'd be interesting to see who mentioned it first. Get back to us on this Tiruin.
She did so in her closing post. She rationalized several cases-and my own (which does confirm I was being silly confusing) and then remarked on how the focus dwindled until she felt satisfied to hit the vote button down.Yes: she made her vote in The Closing Post. Well after it could have had any possible effect. She had no votes all day and then suddenly kicked Caz in after he already had enough votes to die and no other lynch candidate was viable.
...I mean, she did get where I was going-and I had thought that the case of 'if you accuse someone of lying then its quite an accusation' was apparent until..well, checking it out.
And you're FoS'ing Jim along with asking him a pertinent question? Isn't that counterproductive?[/transparency]Jim had a bogus case on me yesterday. Part of his case was that he claimed to think I was scum. Given that I am a Priest and the scum Priest Caz has now flipped, I wanted to know whether he thought that it was in any way plausible that the scum team would have two Priests. Now that I've pondered it a bit more, he might well think that I'm not a Priest and claimed because I knew Caz was a Priest (it'd be very clever of me to do this from my second post of the game, but I am capable of leaps of cleverness). I'd like to hear his perspective on this in any case.
Why're you asking Jim this and what brought it about? Specifically what you're thinking about priests and all that.
While I'd LOOOOVE to say..well, keep silent and let this slide and be happy at myself, I'd point something out that I'd do the same as scum if scum, and town if town--meaning: If someone does such an act as doing a really technical error at me, then I'd hunt 'em out regardless.You're right to be suspicious. We should all be suspicious of each other. Still, it strikes me as a pretty counterproductive scum-strategy to endlessly tunnel then bus your team-mate all day when you could easily have pushed an alternative lynch.
It seems you're basing your townie points on me because my case is long, yes? Why so. That's quite an easy leap there. What're you following here. Vote pattern or...something else.
Well my turn to claim today. I'm a Seer, capable of detecting if a player is benign or malevolent. I'm not exactly sure how that works for third parties though...Well this changes things a bit. If Persus flips malevolent 3rd party I won't consider you cleared, but if he's scum then I guess you're not. Still, part of me thinks that you're scum willing to sacrifice yourself for a mislynch today. You'd kill the Knight and get another nightkill in before being lynched the next day. Persus appears a lot more town than you. Tell us more about your investigation PM descriptions.
Last night I found Persus13 to be malevolent.
For those wondering night 1 I did inspect NQT and found him benign. It was enough to convince me to rethink my stance, at least in regards to his day 1 play, but then he started role fishing and wanting to lynch somebody for being a Monster Hunter, and apparently inspects come before converts making him as potentially scum as anybody else... Then Caz flipped cult instead of vampire and it kind of settled that.
Thats bullshit and you know it. Don't pretend my entire case rested on that single point, you were role fishing. You might be so exceptionally bad that you don't even realize that you were committing a subtle form of it, but you were and I pointed that up long before Jim.Now you know I'm not scum, how could I have been rolefishing? I merely acted in a way that you misinterpreted as rolefishing. Rolefishing is a deliberate attempt to discover the roles of others (implied for malicious purposes) how could someone do that without realising it?
Probably not. But I don't like how quickly you bring this up in your own defense. Why, you didn't even know if I was going to continue my case today or not.I wanted to see where you were at Day 3. I undermine the No-Double-Priest theory as a defence in reply to Tiruin above.
But whether I like it or not doesn't change that I don't think you were on a team with Caz.
I wanted to see where you were at Day 3. I undermine the No-Double-Priest theory as a defence in reply to Tiruin above.
Now that I've pondered it a bit more, he might well think that I'm not a Priest and claimed because I knew Caz was a Priest (it'd be very clever of me to do this from my second post of the game, but I am capable of leaps of cleverness). I'd like to hear his perspective on this in any case.
Caz. Your comment has so many assumptions that it doesn't make sense. First off, you are assuming that a monster hunter attacked me and said monster hunter was Jim. Both of which aren't known yet. Of course this could also mean you and Jim are cult trying to pass off your botched killing of me as a town monster hunter, removing suspicion of the two of you and you just slipped up.
I'll reconsider it when you explain to me why you're so sure it's not a monster hunter. Do vampires and werewolves make regular use of swords?
I can believe this if you were attacked by a monster hunter.
I can't really believe this if you were attacked by the scum team.
Though now Persus has claimed to have been attacked in the night, it might not be true after all. What kind of scum uses swords? Cult would use vampire fangs or daggers, demons would leave a bloody lump of meat, and werewolves usually rip their prey to shreds as well.
When I wrote that I was wondering if maybe NQT was scum. Now I'm fairly confident he's town. I highly doubt he would have rezzed a townie, voted Caz and been attacked by Max and Caz and still be town.QuoteCaz-overconfident and has made lots of assumptions from thin air (almost as if he has information that we don't). Pursuing a case against Tiruin based on said assumptions (lies, whatever). Posts haven't made sense despite some efforts to clear up. Attacked various others also based on assumptions. Voted strange D1. Has dropped of the face of the earth.Where and what do you see @bolded portion?
Second bolded portion: Which posts exactly?Jim:What about now-this-time compared to that point in time? Has the idea still stuck?Yep, I thought the day was about to end and at that point in time was more willing to see Caz lynched than NQT or a no lynch. Sortof like you and several others did with Nerjin. It was also the only I could access the Mafia forum that day even if Bay12 hadn't gone down.No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.
Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.
This is a bandwagon vote.
That you quickly reversed.
But still a bandwagon.
Toony— Do you still think Toaster is scum?Nope not really.
Most likely town? Now when did I say that?You said you'd inspected me and I came up good, so that makes me most likely town given your reported uncertainty over the possibility of conversions.
Anyway as far as flavor I look into basin of water, see an image of you and can tell your aligment from your aurora. There isn't much more to it.I think you mean 'aura'. An interesting mistake to make— makes me think you've not actually just reread a PM.
You are right, tonight chances are unless we get a lucky redirect or have a protect, and I sure hope we do, then I die, but that doesn't mean just lynching me is the best way to test that claim. There is still the chance to survive the night and come back with another inspect.Only if you're a town seer. If you're scum seer we know straight away and we won't have killed a knight.
If you lynch me today then the town spends two days lynching for us both, while lynching Persus results in one lynch for us both either way.
Right now a fake claim doesn't make sense in regards to numbers. Assuming we had three scum players, the standard for an eleven person game, that would leave 2 to 6 right now. A fake claim brings that down to 1 to 5, and with a vig out there that is pretty bad odds for scum.Not quite: if we lynched Persus and you're scum, you'd still have the night kill which would take it down to 1:4. Which admittedly isn't great either, but the scum party would only need one more mislynch to bring things down to lylo (assuming no third party kills). Bit of a gamble but maybe they know something I don't.
Also if I were scum, why would I want to lynch the one player who wouldn't have a night action against me? There are plenty of other players that might have useful abilities, but if they know Persus is a knight the ability is useless as they won't attack him. If he were a town knight he was the second worthless ability in the game after yours.A fair point.
Look, I'm not going to debate too much on this role fishing when I have bigger fish to fry now, nothing productive will come from it. Just know that at least if I thought you were role fishing I acted on it in the correct way, did I not? From my point of view that is what you were doing, and you can expect somebody to act on that.We can drop this, sure.
Yes, please do!Now that I've pondered it a bit more, he might well think that I'm not a Priest and claimed because I knew Caz was a Priest (it'd be very clever of me to do this from my second post of the game, but I am capable of leaps of cleverness). I'd like to hear his perspective on this in any case.Do you want me to find reasons to attack you?
I totally can if that's what you really want.
No, really, what the fuck are you doing.I'm goading the potential scum-Jim into making more weak cases to reveal his inherent scuminess. You going to bite?
Meph:I don't think anything in Supernatural works on everything, but the illusions work on most roles.QuoteIllusionist - A mage whose mastery of light and shadow can use misdirection to help or harm.Does the illusion work on everything?
Meph: Whose voice did this one belong to? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4713163#msg4713163)A god, perhaps? You're not actually sure.
Meph, do we know how Cmega3 and Nerjin were killed?Hmm...good point. I was tired when I started the day last night and forgot to include that part.
That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum
Imp— you presented no cases yesterday and then voted the vote-leader when there was no possible other alternative.Medium lean Scum - but seems to be trying to offer self as target - if so, protecting who and why? Caz seems likeliest target to protect.Why would I try to protect Caz? I thought he was most likely scum. And before you ask, I also thought Jim was most likely scum too and that's why my vote was on him.
Nice to see that my analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4748725#msg4748725) was vindicated— I said Caz was scum and he was.
CAZ Are you really going to lie over or are you going to get in here and post? You better not be town because if you are I'll be seriously disappointed in you.
SCUM
Jim - was previously very townish but now pursuing a case that he has twice undermined with his own lies and hypocrisy
Max - Tunnelling the same player two days in a row, the second time sheeping someone else's weak case
Caz - Parking his RVS vote on Nerjin leading to the latter's lynch
Nerjin - Doing nothing all day 2 after being resurrected as a possible bad dude
Tiruin - Has tunneled Caz almost the entire game. Has she no other suspicions?
Imp - Has yet to press a lynch case as we're nearing the end of the day despite being generally active
Cmega - Mostly comes across as inexperienced but has done nothing all day
Persus - Wishy-washy with his use of the vote (why vote Caz certain he's scum and then immediately vote someone else?)
Toony - Low early-game engagement (probably excusable due to time commitments), but fair engagement since
Toaster - Pretty reasonable play so far, though Kleril said some dubious things
NQT - The Raddest Priest In Town
TOWN
Imp— you've paid attention to previous Supernatural games. What scenario best fits given that we know there's a cult?I need to think that over more. I will be, as time allows.
Imp: NQT did claim Priest here. I don't think Priests can protect (basing on the quote he's quoting of you).
Meph Wait - do we KNOW Cmega3 is dead? Or just 'disappeared'?
Meph Wait - do we KNOW Cmega3 is dead? Or just 'disappeared'?
He's dead. Supernatural doesn't have any abduction roles.
Meph Wait - do we KNOW Cmega3 is dead? Or just 'disappeared'?
He's dead. Supernatural doesn't have any abduction roles.
Meph: Did you mod-kill Cmega3?
Toony— it's not impossible that Max is town and Persus is third-party, but that doesn't strike me as likely from the vote patterns. When you've got time so proper input on this would be good.Unless Max can explain himself with Imp's claim now I think it's Max that's lying. He has two claims against his one. That would be probably the entire scum team outing themselves if that were true.
What do witches do again in this exactly? The OP is vague.
Archangel (town)
You are a Lone Witch, the last practitioner of an ancient religion. Though you are not evil, you are forced to practice your arts in secret. But despite their superstitious distrust, you will still fight to save the town.
Once per game you can go to someone’s house and place a Watchful Ward upon then. This Ward will tell you who visits that house and if the owner leaves (and returns), though not where they go. The Ward will persist for the entire game.
Once the ward is placed, you can scry them without leaving your house.
----------
Coven of the Ancient Ways
----------
Pandarsenic, Vector: The two of you are the last of an ancient religion. You meet secretly to practice this religion, and you provide support and aid to one another. Right now, you’re the only two townsfolk who can truly trust one another. While your religion contains many rites for fertility and general health, it has little to aid against creatures of the night. You’ll have to rely on your wits to help the town.
However, you do have one weapon in your arsenal. You have a coded language and set of gestures that you can use to speak privately with one another (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/dMhtvXk57htJa).
------------------
Coven
----------------
The two of you practice an ancient and forbidden religion. While it gives you no special powers, you do have a secret language (http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/WejBERDCZsVYA) that allows the two of you to communicate with one another without others being able to notice.
Urist Imiknorris (town)
Coven Witch
NativeForeigner (town)
Coven Witch
Notquitethere - Max White has a benign read on him and he led a case on Caz who was scum (if it's a NQT and Max team I'd have to tip my hat at this ridiculous ploy)
Caz— Do you cave easily under pressure?Yes. You've given me palpitations.
Caz's day end lynch vote on Nerjin was an RVS vote!
As you debate, the guard captain comes in.
"We investigated Nerjin and Cmega3's houses last night. Nerjin we found dead in his room, a long slash going down his entire back the obvious cause of death. Of Cmega3 there was no sign, although his door was unlocked."
As you debate, the guard captain comes in.
"We investigated Nerjin and Cmega3's houses last night. Nerjin we found dead in his room, a long slash going down his entire back the obvious cause of death. Of Cmega3 there was no sign, although his door was unlocked."
Meph:
As we debate, is it possible to ask for the guards to search around all of our houses/in them for Cmega's body? If Cmega didn't die at home, he died somewhere else, if his body's not at his home it may be in or around another player's home. I'd love to know if that body's close to someone's house and what condition it is in if that is a reasonable request. (if it's not - hey, we all know Imp loves to go out on limbs in this game).
Can cult's kill as well as convert?No. In S2 they were basic Mafia.
Cmega might have been a Lone Witch, but more likely he has a covenbuddy who may or may not be scum. Anyone want to come forward? My bet, from the vote record, is it's Imp or Jim.Hmm. This would explain Jim's suspicions of me D1.
But I'm reading up on why people would mention a cult in the first place. Is this..some kind of foreshadowing or just guessing out? WIFOM territory, perhaps, but I'm looking back into the game to check on where the roots come from.I believe I was one of the first to discuss it as a possibility for the attack on me. Also, cult isn't exactly surprising to me since unlike werewolves and vampires it has only appeared in a game once.
Well my turn to claim today. I'm a Seer, capable of detecting if a player is benign or malevolent. I'm not exactly sure how that works for third parties though...I love the fact that you're fakeclaiming to kill the one guy you can't NK. That's a very neat scum strategy.
Last night I found Persus13 to be malevolent.
Persus: Details.On what?
What I do know is that he inspected as scum. If you want to know his actual role, the easiest way is with a vote.Max-Persus is scum! What? People aren't voting Persus! I know! Have you ever wanted to know Persus's role? Well, vote him to find out!
Anyway as far as flavor I look into basin of water, see an image of you and can tell your aligment from your aurora. There isn't much more to it.Okay, that was a really dumb slip-up. The correct term is aura. Aurora refers to Aurora Borealis or the Northern Lights. Now, I don't know about you, but when I gave details on my Role PM I had it open in a separate tab and was reading it thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss anything from the flavor. THis makes it sound like you didn't do that. Maybe because you didn't get a PM?
You are right, tonight chances are unless we get a lucky redirect or have a protect, and I sure hope we do, then I die, but that doesn't mean just lynching me is the best way to test that claim. There is still the chance to survive the night and come back with another inspect.This makes 0 sense.
If you lynch me today then the town spends two days lynching for us both, while lynching Persus results in one lynch for us both either way.
Right now a fake claim doesn't make sense in regards to numbers. Assuming we had three scum players, the standard for an eleven person game, that would leave 2 to 6 right now. A fake claim brings that down to 1 to 5, and with a vig out there that is pretty bad odds for scum.But vig killing town makes it easier for you.
Also if I were scum, why would I want to lynch the one player who wouldn't have a night action against me? There are plenty of other players that might have useful abilities, but if they know Persus is a knight the ability is useless as they won't attack him. If he were a town knight he was the second worthless ability in the game after yours.Because you know I'm town and unless I'm lying, which I have no concievable reason to do so unless I wasn't town, then I can't be night-killed.
Persus what'll you do if Max flips seer? Thinking about it a bit more there's not really a good reason for him to sacrifice himself over this, so... do you want to come clean? If your goals don't contradict town's there's no particular reason to lynch you when there are stronger targets.I'll come clean, here I'll confess my role and team:
Imp— you've paid attention to previous Supernatural games. What scenario best fits given that we know there's a cult?Mind if I cut in on this?
We had two night kills last night. Neither are kills of high powered active people. Is there any chance we're dealing with a conversion cult? I... I don't think so. But just in case, I lean towards lynching notquitethere first at this point. There's something -weird- about this set up and especially weird about notquitethere's behavior. I'm going to think more about it and I'm talking about it so everyone else can think about it too. I don't think notquitethere 'usually' makes this many contradictions in his play and I'm burning my mind trying to understand why he is now.Please tell us what's wrong with NQT's behavior, and why you suspect him to be scum.
I slightly suspect Cmega was the lone variety.Can you elaborate?
Really, there's nothing stopping you being a scum seer that is telling the truth about Persus being malicious. You're right that it wouldn't make much sense to sacrifice yourself just to kill a knight, but maybe there's something going on here. It makes most sense if Persus is genuinely malicious. What malicious third parties are there? I'll have to look at Persus and Caz's interactions now.
JanusTwoface (town)
You are a renowned Seer, graced by the gods with the ability to see into the souls of men. Each night you can cast your Sight onto another player to see if they are Benign or Malevolent.
You need not leave your house to use this power.
Powder Miner (town)
You are blessed by the gods with the powers of a Seer. Each Night you can look into the soul of another and see if they are Benign or Malevolent towards you and the good people of the town.
What malicious third parties are there?
You're saying that NQT has lead a case on Caz? Where? I need quotes. I can't find this. Even if you realize you misunderstood something, I want to see your train of thought: what you looked at, what you thought, what you looked at next, what you thought next. This is what I see regarding 'leading a case on Caz' from NQT:Okay, has generally been suspicious of Caz, enough to to be in their top 3 scum picks.
I slightly suspect Cmega was the lone variety.Can you elaborate?
If Cmega3 didn't use his one-shot power N1 (why not? I have no idea) then he might have used it N2. He would have had to go outside to place the ward (his door would be unlocked until he got back home) and since his door was unlocked and his home undisturbed, he may have died outside of his home, with that as a reason why he was outside his home.
S3's lone witch is the only lone witch we've seen yet - it is not clear if that ward is the only power a lone witch might have, or if all lone witches must go outside to use a power.
Looking around you, you notice that Mr.Person has not joined you. So, once again, you head off to inspect his house.
You find it empty. The door is locked, but opened in a fairly simple if destructive manner. Inside you find sparse furnishing. The only ornate object is a medal hanging from a peg near the wall, showing that Mr.Person had served long as one of the town’s Guards.
Those of you who are left gather in the square again. JanusTwoFace, however, is not among you.
Concerned, you head off to his house. You find his front door open, and his hat lying in the dirt. It seems he, like the others, is simply gone.
You gather again. Few of you left, now. And IronyOwl is not among you.
With grim looks at one another you head off to his house. The door is open, but there is no sign of him. Inside his study you find his chair knocked over and scrolls scattered about. A struggle, perhaps? Or a hurried exit.
<3 Imp.
As you debate, the guard captain comes in.
"We investigated Nerjin and Cmega3's houses last night. Nerjin we found dead in his room, a long slash going down his entire back the obvious cause of death. Of Cmega3 there was no sign, although his door was unlocked."
Meph:
As we debate, is it possible to ask for the guards to search around all of our houses/in them for Cmega's body? If Cmega didn't die at home, he died somewhere else, if his body's not at his home it may be in or around another player's home. I'd love to know if that body's close to someone's house and what condition it is in if that is a reasonable request. (if it's not - hey, we all know Imp loves to go out on limbs in this game).
You have been given all the information that will be given.
One word: Illusionist.Persus what'll you do if Max flips seer? Thinking about it a bit more there's not really a good reason for him to sacrifice himself over this, so... do you want to come clean? If your goals don't contradict town's there's no particular reason to lynch you when there are stronger targets.I'll come clean, here I'll confess my role and team:
I am a Knight, sworn to protect town, and willing to die to protect town.
I don't care if Max flips seer, if he flips scum or not is what I care about. And I don't think there is a concievable reason why Town Max would fakeclaim to kill me.
It makes sense given that there's a sure inspector.You are right, tonight chances are unless we get a lucky redirect or have a protect, and I sure hope we do, then I die, but that doesn't mean just lynching me is the best way to test that claim. There is still the chance to survive the night and come back with another inspect.This makes 0 sense.
If you lynch me today then the town spends two days lynching for us both, while lynching Persus results in one lynch for us both either way.
Okay, that was a really dumb slip-up. The correct term is aura. Aurora refers to Aurora Borealis or the Northern Lights. Now, I don't know about you, but when I gave details on my Role PM I had it open in a separate tab and was reading it thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss anything from the flavor. THis makes it sound like you didn't do that. Maybe because you didn't get a PM?Not to be defending Max here, but seeing how it was worded..it looks more like an 'I'm pulling this out of memory-slip' rather than a slip-up. Aura/Aurora is a pretty nice slip up, if given the case, but an improbable one to be a slip-up. My two cents, given how such things mostly get confused.
This does not answer the question on what'll you do. It sounds more like someone diverting the reasoning and standing upon his claim earlier-while, though true for whatever reason there may be--is clouded by the accusation that is leveled against you. I do believe you'd remember that? You don't even give that kind of idea when being attacked, just shooting back and returning fire at Max.Persus what'll you do if Max flips seer? Thinking about it a bit more there's not really a good reason for him to sacrifice himself over this, so... do you want to come clean? If your goals don't contradict town's there's no particular reason to lynch you when there are stronger targets.I'll come clean, here I'll confess my role and team:
I am a Knight, sworn to protect town, and willing to die to protect town.
I don't care if Max flips seer, if he flips scum or not is what I care about. And I don't think there is a concievable reason why Town Max would fakeclaim to kill me.
Survivor seems more reflective of scum to me. Scum want to survive to the end of the game and be the only ones remaining.*looks at Caz*
S5 had... no Seer inspect N1 (Why!) and a Town priest inspect N2 (benign). N3 is interesting! Inspect on an (other) Wererat - he came out benign....Can someone check if a were-anything can do kills, or just acts like a one-shot PGO which kills an attacker and dies with him? (Remembering Irony~)
Max White - two cases against him, unless he can explain himself I don't mind seeing him lynchedAnd where do you stand? Eager to just sit by and let people rationalize it away? Pretty intriguing.
> NQT has claimed Priest.
> Caz is a scum (or..cult-cult) priest.
> Imp claimed Mystic - Fortune Teller [...I have no idea*]
> Max claimed Mystic - Seer [Benevolent/Malevolent]
1. Should we massclaim?
* - Given how Imp did in Caz the first night--and what she got from it, I'm really really wondering how she didn't get a scum inspect from the details [May be a Role-Inspector instead(?)]. Checking here.
Persus: IF Max flips town, and town Mystic to be exact, what're you going to do, and how will you rationalize the previous scenario pre-flip?Note that no one has ever flipped 'Mystic' - they have flipped Seer, Fortune Teller, or whatever they specifically were.
I wonder why a Mystic isn't a Watcher.
Imp: Why did you claim, given your results?
Also I'm pretty sure being a Town Witch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763416#msg4763416) instead of a Lone Witch (who was an angel) is a notable difference.
Archangel (town)
You are a Lone Witch, the last practitioner of an ancient religion. Though you are not evil, you are forced to practice your arts in secret. But despite their superstitious distrust, you will still fight to save the town.
Once per game you can go to someone’s house and place a Watchful Ward upon then. This Ward will tell you who visits that house and if the owner leaves (and returns), though not where they go. The Ward will persist for the entire game.
Once the ward is placed, you can scry them without leaving your house.
...Can someone check if a were-anything can do kills, or just acts like a one-shot PGO which kills an attacker and dies with him? (Remembering Irony~)
Nice to see that my analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4748725#msg4748725) was vindicated— I said Caz was scum and he was.
Cmega might have been a Lone Witch, but more likely he has a covenbuddy who may or may not be scum. Anyone want to come forward? My bet, from the vote record, is it's Imp or Jim.
Is it correct to assume there's three scum?
I'm goading the potential scum-Jim into making more weak cases to reveal his inherent scuminess. You going to bite?
Persus or Max? Who do you find more plausible at this stage?
Guess who the two people who tried to downplay my findings D2 were. They were Caz and Jim.
Toony— it's not impossible that Max is town and Persus is third-party, but that doesn't strike me as likely from the vote patterns. When you've got time so proper input on this would be good.Unless Max can explain himself with Imp's claim now I think it's Max that's lying. He has two claims against his one. That would be probably the entire scum team outing themselves if that were true.
So vote Max White for now.
I spent a LOT of time wondering this, because in past games the flavor of results have often been tuned towards the alignment of the target. Harmless often looks harmless, malevolent often looks malevolent. Those nature symbols look pretty peaceful to me - unless we have some sort of evil nature religion.
Watcher- Seer (confirmed S3, N1 inspection, nativeforeigner checked JanusTwoface), Sexton (confirmed S4, N4 inspection, Max White checked Azure/replacement of jakeread1)
1. Should we massclaim?
Toony: ...Brevity (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763549#msg4763549) ahoy?That's a comparative list which could be misleading. Toaster isn't "squeaky clean" as much as "not as scummy as other people". The area from Tiruin to Imp I would label as the most vague too.
Judging by rank and contradiction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763329#msg4763329) - Toaster comes off squeaky despite the notion of continuous psychology? Meaning: Your knowledge on him affecting your idea of him, now? The bus-thing.
Where do I stand? I want to see Max explain himself. I can't make up answers for him.QuoteMax White - two cases against him, unless he can explain himself I don't mind seeing him lynchedAnd where do you stand? Eager to just sit by and let people rationalize it away? Pretty intriguing.
1. Should we massclaim?Don't. Monster Hunter needs to stick around.
1. Who was the one who attacked Persus? If it was a Hunter, then I'd love for him to claim now-and why he attacked either Cmega or Nerjin--if Cmega, why displace him from his house? That's unconventional, unless said hunter is our unconventional role.I'm pretty sure it is the hunter given the difference in flavor from S2.
If the hunter will claim-why did you not claim earlier?
Persus: IF Max flips town, and town Mystic to be exact, what're you going to do, and how will you rationalize the previous scenario pre-flip?In that case I'd try and lay out a case on who I think is scum and why so that after my almost inevitable lynch I would still have something to contribute.
3. If the sword-hunter is true, then Persus was attacked by him, and thus being a Knight is a trueclaim. Thus, it is right to assume that if their kill has been blocked (via Guard) or protected against..err, well I've to point back to the query in #1. Massclaim time?Monster Hunter: Please don't claim, you're more valuable alive to town then I am.
Except when people get targeted by an Illusionist they are aware that that happened. Have you read any previous Supernatural games?One word: Illusionist.Persus what'll you do if Max flips seer? Thinking about it a bit more there's not really a good reason for him to sacrifice himself over this, so... do you want to come clean? If your goals don't contradict town's there's no particular reason to lynch you when there are stronger targets.I'll come clean, here I'll confess my role and team:
I am a Knight, sworn to protect town, and willing to die to protect town.
I don't care if Max flips seer, if he flips scum or not is what I care about. And I don't think there is a concievable reason why Town Max would fakeclaim to kill me.
Either the scumteam has an illusionist and Max got his fishies in a flopping box which was redirected upon scrying or he really targeted you.
PersusIt was more about the second paragraph. Max seems to be saying we both get lynched the next two days.It makes sense given that there's a sure inspector.You are right, tonight chances are unless we get a lucky redirect or have a protect, and I sure hope we do, then I die, but that doesn't mean just lynching me is the best way to test that claim. There is still the chance to survive the night and come back with another inspect.This makes 0 sense.
If you lynch me today then the town spends two days lynching for us both, while lynching Persus results in one lynch for us both either way.
Yeah, I think that's a sloppy method as he could slip-up in worse ways.QuoteOkay, that was a really dumb slip-up. The correct term is aura. Aurora refers to Aurora Borealis or the Northern Lights. Now, I don't know about you, but when I gave details on my Role PM I had it open in a separate tab and was reading it thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss anything from the flavor. THis makes it sound like you didn't do that. Maybe because you didn't get a PM?Not to be defending Max here, but seeing how it was worded..it looks more like an 'I'm pulling this out of memory-slip' rather than a slip-up. Aura/Aurora is a pretty nice slip up, if given the case, but an improbable one to be a slip-up. My two cents, given how such things mostly get confused.
I was poking fun at NQT's wanna come clean question. Was he really expecting me to answer it?This does not answer the question on what'll you do. It sounds more like someone diverting the reasoning and standing upon his claim earlier-while, though true for whatever reason there may be--is clouded by the accusation that is leveled against you. I do believe you'd remember that? You don't even give that kind of idea when being attacked, just shooting back and returning fire at Max.Persus what'll you do if Max flips seer? Thinking about it a bit more there's not really a good reason for him to sacrifice himself over this, so... do you want to come clean? If your goals don't contradict town's there's no particular reason to lynch you when there are stronger targets.I'll come clean, here I'll confess my role and team:
I am a Knight, sworn to protect town, and willing to die to protect town.
I don't care if Max flips seer, if he flips scum or not is what I care about. And I don't think there is a concievable reason why Town Max would fakeclaim to kill me.
That's why I consider Fortune Teller a fairly useless role, as the information it gives is extremely general and not as useful as other roles.QuoteSurvivor seems more reflective of scum to me. Scum want to survive to the end of the game and be the only ones remaining.*looks at Caz*
Explain the difference. You're narrowing quite a lot in favor of your point given Imp's craftiness. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763525#msg4763525) Plus, Town want to survive, sir. That's pretty much a point there, though I wonder why a Mystic isn't a Watcher.
Sorry, I thought you were scum earlier because I wasn't aware of the kill flavor of last night and I got overconfident after we lynched scum. I doubt you are scum, and I think that the last scum is still out there.[/quote]Guess who the two people who tried to downplay my findings D2 were. They were Caz and Jim.
So you suspect me because I said that a Monster Hunter attacked you instead of Cultists, when, in fact, a Monster Hunter did attack you instead of Cultists.
I don't follow.
Most likely town? Now when did I say that?You said you'd inspected me and I came up good, so that makes me most likely town given your reported uncertainty over the possibility of conversions.
Why the change?See above.
Also, I'm not seeing much suspicion of Persus D2. While why you wouldn't investigate NQT again is pretty obvious, why Persus?
I got the result of survivor for him, with the symbols Cup, Bread, and Cloth. My character did not lean back and ponder this - this one was simple to her. These are simple things, Max White (refered to as a he in my PM) must be a survivor.Now this is interesting. I can see two possibilities, either your lying for some reason (Poor scum play or a third party that needs me dead) or the inspect was disrupted somehow.
-Well done, you lynched scum, one left.
I can see two possibilities, either your lying for some reason (Poor scum play or a third party that needs me dead) or the inspect was disrupted somehow.
Given that Meph said that there was a role that he accidentally let in that hadn't been seen before, you might be a lyncher and this the chance you have been waiting for. I'm not going to say for sure but it is possible. The other possibility is that there is a role that changes the outcomes of inspects and either the target (Myself) or the inspector (you) got hit with it last night.
Still, both these possibilities depend on the unknown new role...
Toaster (cult)
You are an Illusionist, able to bend light, sound, and shadow to your will. Each night you can redirect another player, sending them where you will.
Archangel (town)
You are an Illusionist, able to bend light, sound, and shadow to your will. Each night you can redirect another player, sending them where you will.
Archangel Town Illusionist Send Lonewolf to Mr.Person Casts Illusion
You move carefully across town, sliding from shadowed ally to shadowed ally until you reach Lonewolf’s house. There you construct an elaborate illusion to send him off to Mr.Person’s house instead of any other place he would go should he step outside.
Toaster Cult Illusionist Send Eduren to Mr.Person Illusion, confused
You move carefully across town, sliding from shadowed ally to shadowed ally until you reach Eduren’s house. There you construct an elaborate illusion to send him off to Mr.Person’s house instead of any other place he would go should he step outside.
Toaster Cult Illusionist Redirect Archangel to Jokerman Redirects
As the sun sets you head out over to Archangel’s house to set up your illusion. You take your time with it, carefully crafting the illusion so that he won’t even realize that he’s at Jokerman-EXE’s until it is too late.
I don't even think I've been particularly scummy. You seem to be fabricating a case out of nowhere.
...
I can see everything you said, but I don't see how any of it amounts to me being scum.
Okay, now I'd like you to think for a moment what a town player would do when questioned on a point. Do they just roll over? Defensiveness is not a scumtell.
You clearly did question me: there were question marks and everything. It's all quoted there. How is lessening a mistake a scum tell?!
...
You obviously missed the post where I said that I didn't intend to imply that playing a town cop was unwinnable. However, being a cop makes me play more aggressively and talk on behalf of the town more and this sort of behavior gets me night killed. Maybe my confidence was misplaced, but it isn't due to me having a scum or third party role.
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You mistake my reasons, and I could have been clearer at the time: the very fact that we're worrying about ettiquette over questioning of essentially meaningless questions is a sympom of there being bugger all of real import to talk about Day One. Now do you see?
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Where are you even getting this from? You asked me questions, I gave you answers.
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I'm not trying to mislead anyone, we're just talking at cross-purposes here.
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You said I'd made a mistake, I acknowledged the mistake and then made a comment about the early game in general. Still failing to see how this makes me scum...
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I think we have different standards as to what constitutes a 'question'. You queried my behaviour, I gave an explanation and expanded on it. Can we stop going round in circles now?
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Obviously I don't think you should ignore what you take to be scumtells and so I took that part of your question to be rhetorical. Did you actually want me to spell that out?
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You mischaracterise what I'm doing. You explicitly stated that I am scum. I deny this. I fail to see how we can both be right about this! I'm trying to get town to appraise your arguments and make a decision. I don't think they should lynch you if they disagree with you: I think you're wrong about me but you're hardly the scummiest player.
Uh posting from phone right now so can't quote etc. but thought I should quickly nip this nonsense in the bud, Imp. I did my vote analysis and came to the conclusion that Caz was top scum pick. He'd have been my Day 2 pick were it not for two things: Jim appeared to openly lie about me, which I couldn't in good faith ignore, and I realised that Caz's Nerjin vote was later backed up with some (weak) arguments, meaning he'd voted two targets, which made Max more scummy by this metric. End of Day 2 I pegged the scumteam as Caz-Max-Jim. A lot of new information has come to light and I still need to process it all before making fresh conclusions. We clear now? I'm not behaving weirdly or asking to be lynched and you setting me up as a later lynch is incredibly suspicious.
Jim you're super over-reacting. It was an early Day 2 vote, you said something suspicious, I voted you to press it a bit more then later unvoted in favour of doing more comprehensive reads. Now you're just making shit up: I unvoted you before you voted me. Your behaviour since has only made you come across as scummier. On a lynch-all-liars basis, my vote is going back to you: Jim.
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
Max has an argument against me, Nerjin disputes that argument. They both can't be right and both of them have backed up their positions with lynch-votes. The game has left the RVS and there is now substance to discuss. Can you understand why I'd want players to discuss matters of substance in the game? Is Max or Nerjin correct?
For those wondering night 1 I did inspect NQT and found him benign. It was enough to convince me to rethink my stance, at least in regards to his day 1 play, but then he started role fishing and wanting to lynch somebody for being a Monster Hunter, and apparently inspects come before converts making him as potentially scum as anybody else... Then Caz flipped cult instead of vampire and it kind of settled that.
Hell, I admit I'm not always right about everything. Let's open these questions up to the floor.
Nerjin, Tiruin, Persus13, Cmega3, Imp, ToonyMan, Caz, Max White, Toaster
If a town monster hunter has an investigate and a kill ability, should they investigate their targets before killing them?
Should a priest use their resurrect power?
We knew he was town and by the end of Day 1 it looked like he was getting his act together and finally starting to think critically about the game.
Not sure how wanting to resurrect a confirmed town player is scummy. I was concerned about being night killed before I got the chance to use my power.
I was thinking of the posts immediately before you quoted, like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4730791#msg4730791). He obviously went and reread parts of the thread and seemed to putting in some effort.
Max this is baseless speculation. Nerjin was so borderline. I didn't know whether he was just appearing to give an effort just because I gave an ultimatum and I knew I could resurrect him if I was wrong. I probably would have unvoted him if his scum-pick breakdown had made much sense.
I don't see the contradiction. Nerjin came to be town and I thought he would get his act into gear if he resurrected as town, and I had a strong incentive to use the power N1 before I get mislynched or night killed.
Everyone else, Jim has clearly lied in his response to Toaster to back up his weak case: he just said that "Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him?" when in fact I had already unvoted when he voted me. Why would a town player need to lie to support their lynch target? Jim is scum and must die tonight.
I clearly didn't use the tabulation to build a case against you. I tabulated so people could have access to the same information I was working with. Let's be clear now as well: my current case against you is not anything to do with how you'd play a Hunter, it's because you lied to Tiruin about your vote on me and town never have a good reason to lie to press a lynch.
In what world is unvoting not backing off? Jim casts his votes as trying to get me to back off, which is dubious in and of itself, but his claim that I wouldn't back off if he didn't vote me is an outright lie.
ImpBecause of this, it is possible for NQT to be vampire, and Leader, and have a Scum teammate who is a priest -which would allow him to 'breadcrumb' priest with complete confidence and an ability to 'prove it' as long as his priest doesn't die before he or she can res someone.Oh not you as well. Do you really think it's plausible that I could learn of a team mate having a priest role and decide to collude with them in bread-crumbing it all in the first hour of playing the game? It's not logically impossible, but it's not very plausible either.
And you were so right your vote ended up on him at the end of the day.Been through all this. I had good reason to think you were scum too.
Oh, wait.
Hmm... that changes things a bit.Is it correct to assume there's three scum?From 9p to 11p there are typically two scum, and then once it gets to 12p it gets bumped up to three
Unless Max can explain himself with Imp's claim now I think it's Max that's lying. He has two claims against his one. That would be probably the entire scum team outing themselves if that were true.It's possible that either Imp or Persus are a 3rd party. Hmm... none of this seems to stack up.
Role Analysis...How or where do you know what a Sorcerer does and where did you hear it and where was it originated from?
If Max is town then Imp and Persus are malicious, unless we think someone could have been redirected? If we have a town illusionist who's responsible for shenanigans here, maybe they should think of saying something.
A sorcerer looks like a commuter, or whatever-it's-called. The one that goes elsewhere and so can't be affected by any night actions. If so, that's probably why there was no Day 1 NK: hunter hit a knight and the cult hit the sorcerer. Guess we'll find out at game end.
If Max is a Seer (good or bad) then either Persus is malicious (scum or 3rd party) or Max was redirected. Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer (if he's scum then it'd spell doom for him on a false Persus-flip. Town wouldn't fakeclaim). So Max is a seer. If Max is a seer and Imp can't be redirected, then Imp is scum. Max is Seer so Imp is scum. As we have reason to believe that there is only one scum member left, if Imp is scum then Persus is not scum (and instead a malicious 3rd party). By this logic we should lynch Imp and win the game.
Or have I made a false assumption somewhere along the line?
Meph could you tell us whether fortune-tellers can be redirected?
...How or where do you know what a Sorcerer does and where did you hear it and where was it originated from?Here:
Sounds like they're a sort of self-jailkeeper— they might have a one-or-multi-shot coward move where they make themselves immune to everything at night.
- Sorcerer - A powerful mage, the sorcerer likes to keep to himself and has the power to enforce his seclusion.
I'm making a post but that's after other games post. All these..talk. Imp talks the most sense upon a skim but..yeah, re-reading.Do you think her insistence that I might be a converter in a cult game has any merit?
Counter argument, hypothetical @NQT: If Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer, then why is Imp falling alongside Persus in the counter-attack if she's scum?A good question. Why would a rational scum-Imp want to discredit Max? Seer is the role the scum most want to remove from the game. If there are in fact two scum, Persus might also be scum. Or if there are two scum then maybe Max is scum (and Persus malicious 3rd party) and this is some weird bus to make Imp seem unimpeachable after the lynch. Can you see a logical reason for Max to fakeclaim seer? It's so easy to check!
@Bolded part: We only lynched 1 scum out, leaving 2 left given the number of people total and the given count (and yeah, I fairly doubt that the cult is a full-blown cult.Jim says that if there's 11 players, the game'll have only two scum players. Thinking about it though, Meph might have put in three scum players if there's a really strong town (knight, priest, possible-seer, sorcerer?, hunter).
NQT: Nice OMGUS vote you got there.Voting for someone who has voted you is not an 'OMGUS' if you have good reasons for voting them.
And you're logic is flawed because it fails to keep the options open. Which to me is scummy.What does that even mean? I laid out an argument with very clear premises. Please demonstrate why one or more of the premises is false.
Toaster, you going to weigh down on either side here?
Massive four-post text wall
Anyway, the mechanics here remain pretty simple, you just have to go other the possibilities:
If you lynch Persus and he is scum
-Well done, you lynched scum, one left.
If you lynch Persus and he is not scum
-You can conclude I was lying and therefor scum
-I get killed tonight by a sword wielding monster hunter
-The scum get one kill before business as normal
Either way a scum player is dead before day 4.
If you lynch me and I'm scum
-Well done, you lynched scum, one left.
If you lynch me and I'm not scum
-You just lynched the cop
-You can conclude I was correct and therefor Persus is scum
-The monster hunter can't kill a knight and you have to wait until tomorrow to lynch him
-The scum get today and tomorrows kills before business as normal, essentially costing you a townie you didn't need to loose
You are running a risk you don't have to take. If I'm scum, how am I going to live either way? Better to test the claim without killing me during the day for the possibility that I'm right. If you lynch Persus, you have a lot more to gain than loose.
If Max is a Seer (good or bad) then either Persus is malicious (scum or 3rd party) or Max was redirected. Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer (if he's scum then it'd spell doom for him on a false Persus-flip. Town wouldn't fakeclaim). So Max is a seer. If Max is a seer and Imp can't be redirected, then Imp is scum. Max is Seer so Imp is scum. As we have reason to believe that there is only one scum member left, if Imp is scum then Persus is not scum (and instead a malicious 3rd party). By this logic we should lynch Imp and win the game.
Err... I don't follow. Let's assume for a second we do lynch Imp. What do we do if he flips town? Mafia? Third party? Why not lynch Max and be done with it? What do you think of Max's idea to lynch Persus and hope Max gets vigged if Persus flips town?If she flips town (which, she shouldn't if my reasoning is correct) then we'd know Max is scum and someone can night kill him or we lynch him. Hell, if we lynch any of Persus, Max or Imp we learn whether the others are lying.
Okay, so you're saying you believe Max's role, if not his alignment. That was what I missed.That's right. I'm agnostic about whether Max is town. I think he may well be scum (hence why Imp is so eager not to vote him and vote for me instead if only there were a consensus) but he might be town or third-party.
wall o text
Or have I made a false assumption somewhere along the line?
Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer
Jim: What is your read on NQT? You give him a lot of flak but don't particularly seem to be accusing him of anything.
Meph//Guard Captain: State of the lock of the door of Cmega's house? Broken? Picked?The door seems to have been forced.
Meph, how many members did the scum team start with?That is not known at this time.
Still, both these possibilities depend on the unknown new role...It is a role that could have been in past games (It's always been in my script) but not necessarily one on the front page.
Meph: Does the previously unseen role have to be on the front page, being something that could have been in past games, or is it possible it is totally unseen?
Meph could you tell us whether fortune-tellers can be redirected?Most roles (that have a target) can be redirected.
If Max is a Seer (good or bad) then either Persus is malicious (scum or 3rd party) or Max was redirected. Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer (if he's scum then it'd spell doom for him on a false Persus-flip. Town wouldn't fakeclaim). So Max is a seer. If Max is a seer and Imp can't be redirected, then Imp is scum. Max is Seer so Imp is scum. As we have reason to believe that there is only one scum member left, if Imp is scum then Persus is not scum (and instead a malicious 3rd party). By this logic we should lynch Imp and win the game.
Or have I made a false assumption somewhere along the line?
Imp:Massive four-post text wall
Can I get a TL;DR of that? Specifically, a summary of your evidence on NQT (but your other points as well.)
Imp: But if Imp rezzed Nerjin, and Nerjin turned out town. Do you have an explanation for that?
You set out once again to grow your pack from the ranks of the dead, hoping that this time you will find a body to perform the Rite of Resurrection on.
ToonyMan’s flesh heals, and his body grows in size and form and musculature and his face transforms from that of a human to that of a wolf, and you know that your request has been granted.
ToonyMan’s first sight on returning to mortality is that of your smiling face as a human, but it is time to welcome him to your pack as a wolf.
You wake up. You’re lying in the graveyard, next to your grave. You look at your hands and find the motion unusual. With less color than you’re used to, you see sharp claws attached to a furred paw. You see a figure standing above you. With a sniff, you recognize him as Orangebottle.
You have come back to life as a Werewolf. You retain all the knowledge you had before you died. Your goal is now that of the pack’s: to break the strength of the few remaining members of this town and take the Duchy as your own.
You have a special ability to speak with one another in secret. Use it wisely (http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/ZQmxLwFRMfsmF)
Why do you care about Vampires and notquitethere being a Vampire Lord when our scumteam is Cultists?
Would a scum priest resurrect a dead town player and bring him back as town? Because some priest out there brought Nerjin back as his original alignment.
Imp
If Persus is a malicious 3rd party, scum-seer-Max would gain cache with the town in successfully outing him. Then, on the next day when they miraculously survive they can say their scum mate is good and then if believed they waltz home to victory. We clear now?
Why would Max fakeclaim seer just to get Persus lynched, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
Also, I'm confirmed town priest: Nerjin wouldn't have been brought back as town by a scum priest, you know that.
Orangebottle (werewolf)
Once a devout holy man, you are now a Priest of the Lupine Cult. Once during the game you can attempt to resurrect a dead player. However, there is no guarantee that it will work properly. But if it does, you could gain a new ally, one loyal to the Wolf God.
Meph: Are Scum priests 100% successful in resurrecting others to the Scum side?
If Max is a Seer (good or bad)
(@first paragraph: I'm checking back. But you claimed Priest. Given the # of scum and the possible converter thingy (of which is detailed below) I..doubt it. If one claims priest and counterclaims..ugh. Thinking later.I'm making a post but that's after other games post. All these..talk. Imp talks the most sense upon a skim but..yeah, re-reading.Do you think her insistence that I might be a converter in a cult game has any merit?Counter argument, hypothetical @NQT: If Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer, then why is Imp falling alongside Persus in the counter-attack if she's scum?A good question. Why would a rational scum-Imp want to discredit Max? Seer is the role the scum most want to remove from the game. If there are in fact two scum, Persus might also be scum. Or if there are two scum then maybe Max is scum (and Persus malicious 3rd party) and this is some weird bus to make Imp seem unimpeachable after the lynch. Can you see a logical reason for Max to fakeclaim seer? It's so easy to check!@Bolded part: We only lynched 1 scum out, leaving 2 left given the number of people total and the given count (and yeah, I fairly doubt that the cult is a full-blown cult.Jim says that if there's 11 players, the game'll have only two scum players. Thinking about it though, Meph might have put in three scum players if there's a really strong town (knight, priest, possible-seer, sorcerer?, hunter).
Max: Paraphrase that N2. Same with your N1 account.
Contrast this idea I got as I decided to head back to sleep or not and think about Mafia instead: If Max is scum, he's trying to kill the one thing that either their team (scum-hunter? Probable, but I don't think that's a reasonable idea given the basis at hand. If they converted the hunter...either way, I'm looking into who said what, and why given the thoughts of everyone else). // In the least I can glean that Imp and Max aren't aligned (that'd be a Hel of a bus), and a huge misfactor is that the scumteam - considering they are a cult (though I doubt a full-blown cult instead of a ...well, thanks to the edit above (as in, 'think Supernatural!') scumteam) cannot logically waste their people..well, bussing at this point seems too detrimental, is the core concept.Finished the note in parenthesis and added the barrier where I missed my formatting. The double // signifies that everything after it is under knowledge of the thing in 'edit' while the one before it was pre-Edit.
Why would Max fakeclaim seer just to get Persus lynched, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.You're right, there is no reason. I don't think that means it can't happen though.
I'm not claiming my role by the way. Given how I'm still damn unsure about things. No I'm not claiming until massclaim. I'm not the Hunter."I'm not claiming but I'm not the hunter." Do you realize you're completely defeating the purpose of not mass-claiming in this case? The hunter doesn't want to be known because the mafia can kill him. If you claim not to be the hunter then you've easily narrowed their possibilities.
@Tiruin:Think of it from scumshoes. Many people have claimed, and it would be interesting to note if those people are scumI'm not claiming my role by the way. Given how I'm still damn unsure about things. No I'm not claiming until massclaim. I'm not the Hunter."I'm not claiming but I'm not the hunter." Do you realize you're completely defeating the purpose of not mass-claiming in this case? The hunter doesn't want to be known because the mafia can kill him. If you claim not to be the hunter then you've easily narrowed their possibilities.
Also, why are people extending? We have the entire weekend and most of Monday with an already clear lynch candidate.I am the people now? Ehh, my mind was fuzzy back then to check on time. It's mostly always like that in regard to time.
Imp: What makes you think this 'cult' can convert?
And it spoke back. Promising power beyond your wildest dreams, if you only you would set it free.
And so, for the past few years, you have begun learning what is needed to set it free. And now you are ready. All you need is blood. A simple thing, and in plentiful supply here, as long as you can remain uncaught.
Each night one of you will go out and capture a victim to sacrifice.
Meph - Is it possible for the Scum team in this game to have a 'night action' that could kill or convert, instead of always only killing or always only converting?It is possible. Although such an ability would have to have constraints on it or some other balancing factor to keep the game fair.
Tiruin:I'll read the explanation later--what's the sample population here where you draw the percentages from?Imp: What makes you think this 'cult' can convert?
I believe this game's Scum team has around a 2% chance of being able to convert, that might be conservatively high, I'm guessing about some stuff that hasn't been proven or disproven in any previous game.
But I wasn't joking when I told Jim that to me 'impossible' is pretty much a 0.0% chance of something.
So let me clarify - I think it is unlikely, but not impossible, that this game has a Scum converter (~2% chance). I also think it is possible, but extremely unlikely (~0.3%) that the game has a third party converter.
However, there's still the 'why' of the missing 'second N1 kill' - even D1 we suspected that the sword wielder was not Scum.Eh? There was no N0 or anystuff like that. And we've been speculating so far that there's a hunter--for who would've done the second kill in N2?
This either will attract the scumkill/actions to me, or not. Either way, I will drink a toast and be merry. I can be a knight. I can be the hunter. I can be whatever they want me to believe, but I ain't claiming until everyone claims.Are you admitting to lying then? If you really are the hunter then you're town (or a third-party I guess) that is lying.
Target me scum, I want you to~
..Also still waiting on that long list I asked you before Toony.What list? Also I hope I don't have to write anything long...
Somebody (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763150#msg4763150) has extended before you, don't be so selfish.QuoteAlso, why are people extending? We have the entire weekend and most of Monday with an already clear lynch candidate.I am the people now? Ehh, my mind was fuzzy back then to check on time. It's mostly always like that in regard to time.
The only conversions we've seen so far have been Vampric. I'm not sure if human Cultists -could- convert or not. I'm not scared of Vampires specifically - I'm scared of Converters (if there's any chance we have one - and I hope not but I'm not convinced it is ruled out - I do think that we 'probably' don't have a converter - but I don't rule things out until they are very close to 0.0% probability).
Important! Cults in Supernatural CAN NOT CONVERT. Imp, you should know this. CULT DOES NOT equal Vampire. Cmega3's death perfectly fits the flavor of Cult in Supernatural 2.
Please read Supernatural 2's flavor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1532494#msg1532494) at least.
A sorcerer looks like a commuter, or whatever-it's-called. The one that goes elsewhere and so can't be affected by any night actions. If so, that's probably why there was no Day 1 NK: hunter hit a knight and the cult hit the sorcerer. Guess we'll find out at game end.Hmm, I thought of the sorcerer as like the Paranormal War Vet.
Seer is the role the scum most want to remove from the game.Assumption. And lynching a seer is not really the best way to go about killing him. [sarcasm] But after all, it's not as if the scum could kill a seer a different way, right? [/sarcasm] Scum could be more interested in lynching the hunter, or maybe even something they can't night-kill, like a knight or a sorcerer.
If there are in fact two scum, Persus might also be scum.So suddenly I'm not scum, despite your assertion that Max couldn't possibly have fakeclaimed?
Jim said it best:And you're logic is flawed because it fails to keep the options open. Which to me is scummy.What does that even mean? I laid out an argument with very clear premises. Please demonstrate why one or more of the premises is false.
Or have I made a false assumption somewhere along the line?
Yeah:Max has no rational reason to fakeclaim Seer
You assume he's acting rationally.
Experience has taught me that this isn't something you can always expect Max White to do.
I think we should lynch Imp because it would be illogical, regardless of his alignment, for Max to fakeclaim seer. As she's said Max is not a Seer then she must be lying. Where've I gone wrong here?And because it's illogical for him to fakeclaim Seer, Imp must be lynched despite the fact that he's (Max, Imp is a she) accusing me of being malevolent. What?
If Persus is a malicious 3rd party, scum-seer-Max would gain cache with the town in successfully outing him.Ah.
Why would Max fakeclaim seer just to get Persus lynched, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.Maybe because I can't be NKed?
Also, I'm confirmed town priest: Nerjin wouldn't have been brought back as town by a scum priest, you know that.Further assumptions.
The Scribe's Tally SheetI don't know why, but something tells me Max is getting lynched today.
Imp: notquitethere
Max White: Imp, Jim Groovester, Toaster, Persus13, ToonyMan
Persus13: Max White
Persus13:Thanks for the response, and I meant NQT. However this brings up a point. Do you believe Caz rezzed Nerjin and NQT claimed that he did and that's why you think he's a converter?Imp: But if Imp rezzed Nerjin, and Nerjin turned out town. Do you have an explanation for that?
I know Imp didn't res Nerjin - do you mean if Caz did?
I guessed you would have, it was a general statement.PSA
*blink* I have, repeatedly.
Maybe you misunderstand - I think you're Scum, notquitethere.And this is Persus13 not NQT who posted. However, I'd love to know what your basis in thinking NQT is a converter is from. Is it because he's a priest?
That's totally separate from my worry that you could be a converter. That worry is the only reason I'd rather lynch you today, because -any- chance of a converter's more than I like, and I worry (not think, not believe, I worry) that you could be one.
Because..err, the latest posts dictate an 'I want THIS GUY dead.' vibe instead of a 'convince me or persuade me' neutral vibe.Max's sole argument against me is that he's a seer. I can't counter that, except state how scummy Max has seemed this game.
EDIT: Or we're just fooling ourselves that there is a cult at all given how THERE WAS A CULT BEFORE with the same format as how our cult is now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1532494#msg1532494) (missing a prefix//normal scumteam). Though this does leave the 'special role' out and that game did have 12 players..ugh. [Did anyone link this before?!]I've mentioned Supernatural 2 at least once before and have recommended reading it.
what's the sample population here where you draw the percentages from?Can't be answered. I'm basing it on the past S games, the events of this game, and guesses about probability. It's a measure, tuned to fine detail, of how likely I believe those outcomes are based on everything I'm aware of, both factors that increase and decrease likelihood in my opinion - but there is no sample population. If I was a bookie, that's what I'd use for offering betting percentages and payouts.
Meph - Is it possible for the Scum team in this game to have a 'night action' that could kill or convert, instead of always only killing or always only converting?It is possible. Although such an ability would have to have constraints on it or some other balancing factor to keep the game fair.
The only conversions we've seen so far have been Vampric. I'm not sure if human Cultists -could- convert or not. I'm not scared of Vampires specifically - I'm scared of Converters (if there's any chance we have one - and I hope not but I'm not convinced it is ruled out - I do think that we 'probably' don't have a converter - but I don't rule things out until they are very close to 0.0% probability).
Why are you suggesting we lynch notquitethere just in case he's a converter when you believe that that possibility is a distant one?
If you believe it's a stretch why are you even bothering trying to use that to motivate a lynch on your choice of target?
And if you think notquitethere is a much better target, why do you lack the commitment to cast your vote the way you really want it to?
Also, Cult can only kill, and is a NORMAL SCUMTEAM.
Persus:Because the flavor seems to clearly indicate a lack of "hidden conversions". It clearly states that blood and some form of sacrificial killing is required to summon Cult's old gods.Also, Cult can only kill, and is a NORMAL SCUMTEAM.
We have only seen Cult priests resurrect to Cult in previous games - yet Meph has told us that resurrection is never certain, and the role PM for known Scum priests warns that it may not work as expected. Despite this - several players (including notquitethere) very firmly challenged that even Imp knows that Scum resurrect players as Scum, period. I'm not convinced by people telling me, however firmly, that something is impossible when there is, in fact, a chance that it is possible.
What if all 5 cult kills S2 only 'happened' to be kills - that there was a hidden roll and 'conversion' could have occurred instead?
What if the 'unseen' role this game is a shared Scum team role, very similar to S2's cult, only they do have a form of convert-or-kill, and they were so similar otherwise to the S2 cult that Meph remembered them as the same?
Questions such as these make me wonder if we -could- have conversions, at least rarely, this game. That alone makes me care which Scum is lynched first. Otherwise - it doesn't matter. But if it matters - it matters a lot. Because of the cost of 'if it's true', I care.
Important! Cults in Supernatural CAN NOT CONVERT. Imp, you should know this. CULT DOES NOT equal Vampire. Cmega3's death perfectly fits the flavor of Cult in Supernatural 2.
Please read Supernatural 2's flavor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1532494#msg1532494) at least.
Also, Cult can only kill, and is a NORMAL SCUMTEAM.
Meph - Is it possible for the Scum team in this game to have a 'night action' that could kill or convert, instead of always only killing or always only converting?It is possible. Although such an ability would have to have constraints on it or some other balancing factor to keep the game fair.
And this is Persus13 not NQT who posted. However, I'd love to know what your basis in thinking NQT is a converter is from. Is it because he's a priest?
If NQT is Scum and priest (and I do believe he is),
If NQT is Scum (and I do believe he is) and a priest
Max White - Why are you so sure that there are two Scum?1. Because that is how many you would expect in an eleven person game.
Why are you so sure that the other kill is a monster hunter, and that the other killer is on Town's side?
We have no proof that the sword-wielding killer is anti-Town - but we also have no proof that the sword wielder is Town either, do we?
Gee, you make me wonder. When you talk about 'the mechanics' of what happens when either you or Persus is lynched, you're willing to discuss the possibility that you might be Scum.Because if you are trying to make me figure out why your inspect is wrong, I know what I am. When trying to present the possible outcomes to the town I accept that you don't know what I am for sure, so I will look at things from your point of view.
But just a couple lines above that, the only two possibilities that exist to you are that I'm lying or that I've been tricked - the possibility that you might be Scum doesn't cross your fingertips there.
Schrödinger's Box, perhaps? Nah, whatever it is, I suspect Occam's Razor can solve it. The simplest answer, would that be that there's a new role that requires me to lynch you? Or one that makes me get a false inspect result on you? Or that Persus13 and I are lying? Or that you are lying?
Surely one of those is true. I wonder if it's the one that Occam's Razor suggests.
Max— it doesn't look like fortune-tellers can be redirected, but there can be scum-fortune tellers. I guess you anticipated people following you in a Persus lynch, right?Well you know, you see the little [1] next to your messages, and it builds a little anticipation, and then you read that you actually hit scum and it is a pretty good feeling, so yea, I did rush in with the feeling of being the hero today and it didn't exactly go that way... But I guess I can live with that. Persus gets lynched tomorrow, Imp gets stabbed tonight, there is a good chance we actually win on day 4, so if I am to be lynched then ok.
Max: Meph's "New Role" is one of the roles in the OP, not a newly created role.Oh, really? Because you know a few posts after he very specifically says otherwise. What do you know about the new role that we don't?
Experience has taught me that this isn't something you can always expect Max White to do.<3 U 2 Jimmy-kun.
*sits down* *raises hand* *speaks in a calmer voice* Guys? Can we -please- lynch this man first? Just in case he is a converter of some sort? You do all hear the level of BS he is throwing, right?Look your logic makes no sense at all.
I've mentioned Supernatural 2 at least once before and have recommended reading it.My pride states that you haven't stated it with a bigger signboard. But in reality, I missed it.
.. ::)This either will attract the scumkill/actions to me, or not. Either way, I will drink a toast and be merry. I can be a knight. I can be the hunter. I can be whatever they want me to believe, but I ain't claiming until everyone claims.Are you admitting to lying then? If you really are the hunter then you're town (or a third-party I guess) that is lying.
Target me scum, I want you to~..Also still waiting on that long list I asked you before Toony.What list? Also I hope I don't have to write anything long...Somebody (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4763150#msg4763150) has extended before you, don't be so selfish.QuoteAlso, why are people extending? We have the entire weekend and most of Monday with an already clear lynch candidate.I am the people now? Ehh, my mind was fuzzy back then to check on time. It's mostly always like that in regard to time.
Wait a second...now that I think about it. Why wouldn't Caz res Nerjin on Night 1? It would be perfect.Perfect how?
MOD:
How do stacked resurrects work? I think you mentioned you flip a coin but I don't remember.
...Ghoul? I thought those things were only in The Great Temple (the one with 4 orbs and such and such and the werewolf and ghoul won a mutual victory mafia?).Max White - Why are you so sure that there are two Scum?1. Because that is how many you would expect in an eleven person game.
Why are you so sure that the other kill is a monster hunter, and that the other killer is on Town's side?
We have no proof that the sword-wielding killer is anti-Town - but we also have no proof that the sword wielder is Town either, do we?
2. Because ghouls tend to eat people rather than slash at them with swords.
It does? Really? O_oMax: Meph's "New Role" is one of the roles in the OP, not a newly created role.Oh, really? Because you know a few posts after he very specifically says otherwise. What do you know about the new role that we don't?
Oh Bleh, I messed up on reading this:It does? Really? O_oMax: Meph's "New Role" is one of the roles in the OP, not a newly created role.Oh, really? Because you know a few posts after he very specifically says otherwise. What do you know about the new role that we don't?
Persus: Where and what is your reference. I sincerely doubt you there. As in, really.
Also, I find I must apologize to you. It seems that one of the roles in this game has, in fact, not appeared before. I thought it had, and it's been in the possible role set for quite a while but...apparently I was mistaken. But all of the others have shown up before.I thought that the possible role set meant the OP Town Role List at the time and said as such.
PFPIgnore it probably? If they aren't actually attacking me then why do I care? I could just use that as leverage to vote them with my own attack.
Toony~@Tiruin:What do you do when you see someone attempting, or in the least, erring when addressing you and seemingly provoking you passive-aggressively? Meaning: Denouncing you and your work?ToonyMan: Read back on Caz. Report back. What is your read. What has been your read on me and him.Yeah yeah, I see now. Caz accusing you of vote-hopping wasn't true (which is scummy). However your reaction to their vote and how you're reacting now screams THEY'RE WRONG THEY'RE WRONG I MUST PROVE THEY'RE WRONG TO SURVIVE which I find pretty desperate.
Why or how couldn't you relate what you just said earlier. Like, in my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743941#msg4743941)
You? You scream scum in the same way as Caz is doing here. Trivial error, which you denounce without addressing my posts toward you as a whole.I admitted that I was wrong and Caz was lying, and look, he's scum! I just sort of feel your defense to prove that you definitely aren't reacting and totally shouldn't be voted is odd. The fact you're almost forcing me to even respond to this list is telling enough, but I generally find you town with the Caz thing and also:
'Omg I see nao! But your reaction!'
Really? Is what my perceived reaction of great importance to you that you miss the trigger of the action-or may I say, whether or not the person holding said reaction was acting out a pressure attack? Because a pressurized attack was what I was mostly leaning on at the time. Do note, since you read back, that I was never truly sure.
So I went and took out my blade and flourished it with a nice speech. See the results? I bet you do.You keep dropping hints that you're a damn Hunter! I get it, a Hunter can't be cult either so you are totally not scum and shouldn't die. But your little implications and hints are annoying, because if you really are the Hunter you're lighting yourself like a match (and also lying to the town).
However, the bolded portion up there. I never had the intent of 'IF YOU'RE WRONG THEN I HIT YOU TO SURVIVE'. I don't practically care if I die or not, as my use is pretty much. . .ah, let's say, some sort of passivity in this lot of people. Survival is the least of my concerns, sir, and if you're looking more onto that notion, then I have due right to suspect you.
Mostly for quite everything you've said to me thus far has been lacking. Desperation? Quite a superficial note to focus on, too.
Could you explain your thought process in detail about this? I know that exams pretty much suck up your thinking and/or sleep deprivation affects judgement (null), but WHEN you do post, I would LOVE to see a concise explanation from you.Thought process on WHAT? Voting you?? I'm already done with this, I have no intentions to vote somebody right now who was right about Caz and is likely our fucking hunter.
Because you're my #2. Right after Caz.I see you haven't placed your vote.
Imagine your scum team has a priest, town lynches one of their own on Day 1. If you res them and it succeeds then that's another partner to your cause, if you fail and they're still the same alignment, town has to waste a day debating whether to lynch them again or not (if they do lynch him then they wasted a lynch and if they don't he can always have suspicion drawn to him as "the resurrected guy" especially after we lynched an actual scum priest). Why wouldn't Caz use their resurrect on Night 1?Wait a second...now that I think about it. Why wouldn't Caz res Nerjin on Night 1? It would be perfect.Perfect how?
MOD:
How do stacked resurrects work? I think you mentioned you flip a coin but I don't remember.
Meph - Did you miss me asking about THIS GAME when you answered the question : "Is it possible for the Scum team in this game to have a 'night action' that could kill or convert, instead of always only killing or always only converting?"I noticed. There is an unaccounted for role this game that has not been seen before. Therefore, for that particular role, just about anything is possible. But I will state that the Scum team for this game, as a team power, has not changed from previous games.
MOD:It is decided randomly, yes.
How do stacked resurrects work? I think you mentioned you flip a coin but I don't remember.
Cmega3-erratic voting and buddying of me D1
Toaster-Kleril acting oddly opening of D1. Kleril also buddied Cmega. Toaster jumped onto the Nerjin bandwagon at the perfect time and provided the momentum to get others to vote him. Voted Caz but attacking other people.
NQT-Rolefishing slightly. A little overly defensive, although that may be because three people are attacking him.
Imp-Lurking and hasn't really contributed a lot to the game besides several outside the box ideas.
Max-Has voted a grand total of one person the entire game. without a single FOS.
Toonyman-Not sure
Nerjin-majorly lurking
Jim-NQT has a point but seems town to me.
Tiruin-also unsure.
Perses-Knight, poor town if attacked by monster hunter.
...Ghoul? I thought those things were only in The Great Temple (the one with 4 orbs and such and such and the werewolf and ghoul won a mutual victory mafia?).Max White - Why are you so sure that there are two Scum?1. Because that is how many you would expect in an eleven person game.
Why are you so sure that the other kill is a monster hunter, and that the other killer is on Town's side?
We have no proof that the sword-wielding killer is anti-Town - but we also have no proof that the sword wielder is Town either, do we?
2. Because ghouls tend to eat people rather than slash at them with swords.
Anyway, where are you talking about ghouls now? Where's that tangent I missed?
Pandarsenic (other)
You are a Ghoul. A strange, twisted being that exists on the border between life and death. Your mind has been warped by the constant pull of these forces, and you only find release in the death of others.
Each night you may either choose to Kill another player or Consume a dead player. If you Consume a dead player your next Night Kill will be powered by dark magic, and you will be unstoppable.
You win when all other players are dead.
Imp: I am curious. Could you summarize your case on NQT compared to those you've action'd? As in, Max? What makes NQT worse than that dude your action calls out on? Survivor > Watcher = lynch NQT first?
It doesn't follow as I see it.
S1 saw a ghoul. Didn't see much of him, he was the Scum kill N1. His role PM:AH, Good! Perhaps I can expound on how Ghouls kill, given how I was one before and did it with many humans. (<3 Bookthras)Pandarsenic (other)
You are a Ghoul. A strange, twisted being that exists on the border between life and death. Your mind has been warped by the constant pull of these forces, and you only find release in the death of others.
Each night you may either choose to Kill another player or Consume a dead player. If you Consume a dead player your next Night Kill will be powered by dark magic, and you will be unstoppable.
You win when all other players are dead.
His N1 action (which happened before the kill did) was to eat the D1 lynch corpse. We have no ghoul-kill flavors to read, but it is extremely unlikely that ghouls kill with swords, I agree.
I swear to god if you're the hunter Tiruin I am going to strangle you after the game is over for making me read your vague bread-crumbing.I will facepalm and point out to you to sense what I'm trying to say in betwix the lines. I don't make my lies that apparent.
But..but denouncing someone is attacking them. Erm, did I see it wrong, or are you saying that you'd only take direct attacks and not pay attention to subtlety? I doubt that you'd do but..maybe my reading is just messy.PFPIgnore it probably? If they aren't actually attacking me then why do I care? I could just use that as leverage to vote them with my own attack.
Toony~@Tiruin:What do you do when you see someone attempting, or in the least, erring when addressing you and seemingly provoking you passive-aggressively? Meaning: Denouncing you and your work?ToonyMan: Read back on Caz. Report back. What is your read. What has been your read on me and him.Yeah yeah, I see now. Caz accusing you of vote-hopping wasn't true (which is scummy). However your reaction to their vote and how you're reacting now screams THEY'RE WRONG THEY'RE WRONG I MUST PROVE THEY'RE WRONG TO SURVIVE which I find pretty desperate.
Why or how couldn't you relate what you just said earlier. Like, in my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4743941#msg4743941)
Bwuh? I'm asking -not forcing- you to respond to the list because I attached your response + FoS given how it was directly connected to what Caz was saying (ie Switching votes accusation).You? You scream scum in the same way as Caz is doing here. Trivial error, which you denounce without addressing my posts toward you as a whole.I admitted that I was wrong and Caz was lying, and look, he's scum! I just sort of feel your defense to prove that you definitely aren't reacting and totally shouldn't be voted is odd. The fact you're almost forcing me to even respond to this list is telling enough, but I generally find you town with the Caz thing and also:
'Omg I see nao! But your reaction!'
Really? Is what my perceived reaction of great importance to you that you miss the trigger of the action-or may I say, whether or not the person holding said reaction was acting out a pressure attack? Because a pressurized attack was what I was mostly leaning on at the time. Do note, since you read back, that I was never truly sure.
In which Tiruin's though process is revealed.Because you're my #2. Right after Caz.I see you haven't placed your vote.
[/quote]wut. Noooo. I already saw your thing on voting me or whatever (somehow made its way from Toaster's post and all + the note on being vote switchy).Could you explain your thought process in detail about this? I know that exams pretty much suck up your thinking and/or sleep deprivation affects judgement (null), but WHEN you do post, I would LOVE to see a concise explanation from you.Thought process on WHAT? Voting you?? I'm already done with this, I have no intentions to vote somebody right now who was right about Caz and is likely our fucking hunter.
PersBecause it was a list in order of scummitude of everyone. I'm not the only one who's been doing that.eus:Cmega3-erratic voting and buddying of me D1
Toaster-Kleril acting oddly opening of D1. Kleril also buddied Cmega. Toaster jumped onto the Nerjin bandwagon at the perfect time and provided the momentum to get others to vote him. Voted Caz but attacking other people.
NQT-Rolefishing slightly. A little overly defensive, although that may be because three people are attacking him.
Imp-Lurking and hasn't really contributed a lot to the game besides several outside the box ideas.
Max-Has voted a grand total of one person the entire game. without a single FOS.
Toonyman-Not sure
Nerjin-majorly lurking
Jim-NQT has a point but seems town to me.
Tiruin-also unsure.
Perses-Knight, poor town if attacked by monster hunter.
Oh yeah! I meant to ask you this earlier, but kept forgetting.
Why'd you include yourself in your suspicions list, and why'd you misspell your name when you did so?
S1 saw a ghoul. Didn't see much of him, he was the Scum kill N1. His role PM:That was S2, not S1.
Hrm. NQT, when you say:Town or Cult or Third Party. I'm agnostic about what Max is, but either he's irrational or he's telling the truth about being a seer and Persus is anti-town. With your sudden strange fixation on me being scum when there exists other more likely targets (you claim to have caught Max out in a lie and yet say you'd much rather lynch me?!), I'm not inclined to take your read on Max at face value.If Max is a Seer (good or bad)
What do you mean by (good or bad)? Do you actually mean Town or Scum, or are you talking about something like sane/insane (like cops can have in some games) or more specifically like a piety rating of sorts, that could give a Seer unpredictable results like resurrections can have?
After Max White, you are my next Scumpick, by a vast margin.See, I know you're capable of looking critically at a game. That you could get things so wrong here lends credence to my suspicions.
NQT: I want to see your main reasons behind why Imp > Max seems better in a list including any pros or cons - if there are situational things you want to add, put them in a different section. Address the matter at hand given how easy it is to branch out to speculation.I have already given my case in the form of a clear and concise argument. But if you want it in a pro-con list:
Assumption. And lynching a seer is not really the best way to go about killing him. [sarcasm] But after all, it's not as if the scum could kill a seer a different way, right? [/sarcasm] Scum could be more interested in lynching the hunter, or maybe even something they can't night-kill, like a knight or a sorcerer.I only mean to say that a non-scum seer is a more powerful ant-scum role than Knight and so higher up the kill list. But sure, I take your point about the means.
There's an ambiguity about the word 'scum'. I think either Max is irrational or you are a malicious role (either cult or a third-party) or Max is rational and you may be good but Max was redirected.If there are in fact two scum, Persus might also be scum.So suddenly I'm not scum, despite your assertion that Max couldn't possibly have fakeclaimed?
And because it's illogical for him to fakeclaim Seer, Imp must be lynched despite the fact that he's (Max, Imp is a she) accusing me of being malevolent. What?Malevolent doesn't necessarily mean cult. Our first duty is to kill the cult.
You know, if you weren't so doggedly defending Max and making assumptions, I'd still think you were town.I just try to go with what makes sense. I'm not looking to defend Max just for the sake of it. I think he's dodgy as anything with his incessant tunnelling for most of the game, but him fakeclaiming just didn't make sense to me. If something doesn't make sense to you, you shouldn't just follow everyone else.
Post coming up. Max as of now. Detailing in an hour or so.What wasn't given by Max are the details on his N1/2 counts. Given the situation wherein we've a normal scumteam (ie 2 scum and all), there is a common factor on 'why would x risk y'. The idea goes out to Persus, too. However:
@Tiruin:...I don't even get you at times. How would I be concerned about my own safety back then in that context? Why would I be concerned of my own safety, too?
My thought process was, "maybe Tiruin is scum because they seemed concerned about their own safety". I'm starting to repeat myself enough on a point I don't even believe anymore that I want to believe it again.
...First, second or third door. What do you mean? What do you think of Max and what'll he flip as? That's a confusing train of thought Persus.I think Max is scum, as he's stating a false accusation, but I'm not 100% sure about that. But as usual when I'm playing a mafia game, I'm nervous that he's not going to turn out to be scum at the end of the day, and I lynched town by accident. I've gotten that nervous fear every time I've helped lynch someone.
If Max flips scum, and our monster hunter doesn't kill NQT, he's likely to be our lynch tomorrow.Just a note to any monster hunter that's reading: I never made the claim that Max isn't scum, I just think it's more likely that he's a seer than it is that Imp is telling the truth. If anyone doesn't know my role and alignment by now then they haven't been paying attention. (I'm a town priest, I rezzed Nerjin as town, a scum priest couldn't do this: unless I've misunderstood how this works, Nerjin would have ended up either cult or 3rd party if resurrected by Caz, right?)
Despite Imp's arguments that that might not necessarily be true?If Max flips scum, and our monster hunter doesn't kill NQT, he's likely to be our lynch tomorrow.Just a note to any monster hunter that's reading: I never made the claim that Max isn't scum, I just think it's more likely that he's a seer than it is that Imp is telling the truth. If anyone doesn't know my role and alignment by now then they haven't been paying attention. (I'm a town priest, I rezzed Nerjin as town, a scum priest couldn't do this: unless I've misunderstood how this works, Nerjin would have ended up either cult or 3rd party if resurrected by Caz, right?)
There's an ambiguity about the word 'scum'. I think either Max is irrational or you are a malicious role (either cult or a third-party) or Max is rational and you may be good but Max was redirected.
Max might yet be irrational, or one or more players could have been redirected.
Cons
- There might be some factor that I haven't taken into account. Imp might have been redirected to someone else. Hell, Max might have been redirected when targeting Persus. There's a lot of potential unknown unknowns.
The day isn't going to end any other way and we've all voted now, so...
Shorten
Unless there are any tangents anyone else wants to propose?
Whereby I ask [Toony] to expound [his] case.
If Max flips scum, and our monster hunter doesn't kill NQT, he's likely to be our lynch tomorrow.Just a note to any monster hunter that's reading: I never made the claim that Max isn't scum, I just think it's more likely that he's a seer than it is that Imp is telling the truth. If anyone doesn't know my role and alignment by now then they haven't been paying attention. (I'm a town priest, I rezzed Nerjin as town, a scum priest couldn't do this: unless I've misunderstood how this works, Nerjin would have ended up either cult or 3rd party if resurrected by Caz, right?)
Meph: Are Scum priests 100% successful in resurrecting others to the Scum side?
Resurrection is never a sure thing.
Toaster: Where did Caz rolefish again? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4740606#msg4740606)
Well, we're back to Day 1 again. Did anyone learn anything useful?
I too want to hear more from Toony. We may just have 2 baddies (with Max probably being the second), but we could have 3 (and the other isn't NQT despite my suspicions), and we could have 4. Toony is my next Scumpick after NQT (he's not even close to NQT, but a big part of that gap could be because Toony has said so -little- - Toony giving me more to read might make Toony appear very much more Town - I don't know because Toony isn't posting much)Hm. I believe that empirical evidence points to Max, but I'm curious about you and your case. What if it doesn't end if (I notice Max has..quieted. He must post however, extend.) he flips scum.
If Max was redirected when targeting Perses, then Max is still a Seer, his claim is true (even if his N2 are wrong because of the redirect) and thus I am lying - thus I am certain Scum. If he was redirected from Perses, then his result for Perses is either false or true (he could have been redirected to someone -else- who would give the same result as if Max had not been redirected.The prospect is, why would you lie given a sure case such as MALEVOLENT//BENEVOLENT? There are other factors, but the ideas are clear given the preceeding statements.
Meph: Do we know how many scum are there?
Meph, how many members did the scum team start with?That is not known at this time.
Imp:QuoteI too want to hear more from Toony. We may just have 2 baddies (with Max probably being the second), but we could have 3 (and the other isn't NQT despite my suspicions), and we could have 4. Toony is my next Scumpick after NQT (he's not even close to NQT, but a big part of that gap could be because Toony has said so -little- - Toony giving me more to read might make Toony appear very much more Town - I don't know because Toony isn't posting much)Hm. I believe that empirical evidence points to Max, but I'm curious about you and your case. What if it doesn't end if (I notice Max has..quieted. He must post however, extend.) he flips scum.
QuoteIf Max was redirected when targeting Perses, then Max is still a Seer, his claim is true (even if his N2 are wrong because of the redirect) and thus I am lying - thus I am certain Scum. If he was redirected from Perses, then his result for Perses is either false or true (he could have been redirected to someone -else- who would give the same result as if Max had not been redirected.The prospect is, why would you lie given a sure case such as MALEVOLENT//BENEVOLENT? There are other factors, but the ideas are clear given the preceeding statements.
Why is this a logical track of reasoning?
The prospect is, why would you lie given a sure case such as MALEVOLENT//BENEVOLENT? There are other factors, but the ideas are clear given the preceeding statements.
Why is this a logical track of reasoning?
If Max flips scum, and our monster hunter doesn't kill NQT, he's likely to be our lynch tomorrow.Just a note to any monster hunter that's reading: I never made the claim that Max isn't scum, I just think it's more likely that he's a seer than it is that Imp is telling the truth. If anyone doesn't know my role and alignment by now then they haven't been paying attention. (I'm a town priest, I rezzed Nerjin as town, a scum priest couldn't do this: unless I've misunderstood how this works, Nerjin would have ended up either cult or 3rd party if resurrected by Caz, right?)
Despite Imp's arguments that that might not necessarily be true?Well, I might turn out to be mistaken on this point (but my knowledge of the inner-workings of Meph isn't an indicator of my alignment).
See, if Max is lying about being a Seer - then what he said about both nqt and Perses is made up and should be discarded when you consider lines of thought that consider Max as lying about being a Seer. NQT is mixing those concepts (even as a liar, what Max claimed as his results are still valid), and NQT has done so repeatedly, not just this time- which I think is crazy and not a 'reasonable' mistake to make.I think I need a map to get to the sense of these sentences. You're the next Tiruin!
With LOGIC: If Max is lying about being a Seer: What Max said about both NQT and Perses was made up, and says nothing about the truth of either of them.OK. If Max is proved to have been lying, then we shouldn't trust things he said earlier, sure.
Thus - NQT and Perses could be benign or malicious, no 'proof' of any sort has been provided either way.
From my observation: NQT often appears to consider things deeply and from many sides, and his posts include many details to explain his thinking and own observations.You're very kind. I think you show a lot of promise and I really like how you look at things in depth and appear to try to get to the truth of things. I do like to think things through but sometimes it takes a while for me to look at all the angles.
Thus - NQT is making a very odd set of mental choices regarding the 'details' he is and is not including in his posts, and these include some -big- logic failures.OK. I'm all ears. I don't always get everything right.
Other 'nqt ignored' possibilities:You seem to be conflating two possibilities here. Sure, either one of you could have been redirected. It's possible (but it strikes me as quite unlikely) that you were both redirected on N2. If there was a town Illusionist to blame they would have claimed by now and there's obviously not going to be two scum illusionists (even if there were they both couldn't have acted last night as there was a night kill).
1) If I am lying, Max could also have been redirected when he investigated Perses (assuming a role that can redirect those who do not leave their houses to take actions exists in play - I believe this would be a never-before-seen role, as Illusionists appear to cause -physical- redirections only from what's been said in their PMs in the past - though this is unconfirmed because no illusionist has as yet ever targeted a 'stay home' role that was trying an action). NQT appears to be thinking about some, but only some, ways a possible redirect could be used - and doesn't appear to consider the 'both' perspective. I explain below why this 'failure to consider this point' is so interesting to me
2) If I was redirected N2, there is some possibility that there are -two- redirective roles in play. Max could -also- have been redirected, we could both be telling the truth and both be innocently wrong (I think this is incredibly unlikely).So we agree here. I'd go on to say that due to the set-up it's almost impossible for this to be the case.
It would be absolutely irrational for me to be Scum and roleclaim to attempt to get Max lynched. If Perses is telling the truth about being a knight, the only way to get rid of him is to lynch him. If he's lying about being a knight, my Scum-perspective would probably be 'yay, Seer revealed, we're getting rid of a competitive and dangerous third party today, and maybe that Seer tonight - if not, we're definitely getting rid of someone else tonight! - I have NO reason to prefer a lynch of Max to a lynch of Perses.OK. I've given it some more thought, and you know what, I think that you're right. It would be pretty irrational of you to fakeclaim a fortuneteller result just to have Max lynched (though he potentially is the cop) unless it was part of some weird gambit. OK. Unvote.
So despite Meph saying that it's never a sure thing, -you- are certain that Scum priests -cannot- resurrect someone as Town.My understanding was that town priests could resurrect a player to town or to third party (50/50 chance) and scum priests could resurrect a player to scum or third party (50/50 chance). So it's never a sure thing whether they'll resurrect as what you wanted, but you're not going to resurrect them to a whole other team. I could be wrong!
(I'm a town priest, I rezzed Nerjin as town, a scum priest couldn't do this: unless I've misunderstood how this works, Nerjin would have ended up either cult or 3rd party if resurrected by Caz, right?)Liar, scum priest can fail a resurrect and bring them back as town.
Well, I might turn out to be mistaken on this point (but my knowledge of the inner-workings of Meph isn't an indicator of my alignment).Ohoho, but using misinformation to make your alignment more town is okay?
Liar, scum priest can fail a resurrect and bring them back as town.I obviously didn't lie: it's unclear at this stage. I recall reading in one of the previous games Meph saying the piety check was 50/50 (which would rule out three resurrection options for the scum alignment), but I might have got that wrong.
I think Imp is probably town. I don't know why NQT is trying to do a lynch on Persus now so I'm going to avoid doing that.As I explained, I don't think it would make sense for either Max or Imp to fakeclaim. I find them both incredibly dodgy and my analysis leads to the conclusion that Max is most likely scum however I don't think either of them are idiots. Thinking it through further, the only situation that seems any way plausible to me at this stage is that Imp was redirected and Max is telling the truth (though he might still be scum trying to dob in a third-party). I find it suspicious that everyone is unanimous against Max given my (admittedly contested) suspicion that there's more than one remaining cultist. A bus isn't completely out the question, but the only player that has tried to lead any other lynch other than Max was Imp (which raises more suspicions). At this stage it's more of a protest vote than anything. I seriously doubt I'll be able to persuade anyone else.
Meph: Is it possible for a Scum priest to resurrect a player as Town?It is possible, yes.
Meph: Do we know how many scum are there?No.
Meph: Is it possible for a Scum priest to resurrect a player as Town?It is possible, yes.
Right, yes that makes a lot of sense. In that case I know it was definitely me. Those incense and candles in the temple of death didn't light themselves.But aren't we just taking your word for it? I know Max has a benign reading on you, but I am very worried you'll become "confirmed town" if we lynch Perseus instead and they flip scum...although that means you really are town or Max is lying for some reason....
ToonyLiar, scum priest can fail a resurrect and bring them back as town.I obviously didn't lie: it's unclear at this stage. I recall reading in one of the previous games Meph saying the piety check was 50/50 (which would rule out three resurrection options for the scum alignment), but I might have got that wrong.
In any case, I think I'm going to switch my vote to Persus. Seer is a powerful role and can't see why he would lie, it's true. I mainly had my vote towards Max because Imp backed up Persus, but that's about it. There could easily be some form of manipulation and I do not like this feeling. Max's actions after inspecting NQT make sense too.I put up the idea that scum didn't kill N1 to check for other people who can kill (yeah, pretty improbable but its a possibility that hadn't been considered...or discussed at all last [and the only time it was] mentioned.)
Meanwhile there was no mafia-kill N1 (if we assume Persus' attacker was a hunter) which means could it be that Persus is scum knight? This is my conclusion anyway. It feels more right.
Hey, tell me, is Max White acting more like town who got a guilty result on somebody, or scum who got counterclaimed hard?...I'm putting his absence more to internet dislocation than not. Though if the extend pushes through, I'm very interested in what he has to say. Either there's a lot of time for him to scheme up, or not, the latter seems like a more valid prospect to me.
He's basically clammed up since Imp's counterclaim.
Max: Why are you missing my request on you paraphrasing/expounding on your N1/2 results? Why are you ignoring me like Caz? Because that's how I feel.Because pages and pages of text and it is easy to forget something so worthless to reply to.
Really? Do you?It does? Really? O_oMax: Meph's "New Role" is one of the roles in the OP, not a newly created role.Oh, really? Because you know a few posts after he very specifically says otherwise. What do you know about the new role that we don't?
Well that settles that then.Still, both these possibilities depend on the unknown new role...It is a role that could have been in past games (It's always been in my script) but not necessarily one on the front page.
Meph: Does the previously unseen role have to be on the front page, being something that could have been in past games, or is it possible it is totally unseen?
He's basically clammed up since Imp's counterclaim.Honestly?
@Imp:
I'll be repeating Jim here but if you want to lynch NQT why aren't you voting him? Why are you staying on Max?
@Imp:
Why are you staying on Max?
You guys can bandy all your theories about until you're blue in the face, but keep in mind that while you're doing this you're also ignoring the people involved.
If Max survives we can use his Seer ability
I mainly had my vote towards Max because Imp backed up Persus, but that's about it. There could easily be some form of manipulation and I do not like this feeling. Max's actions after inspecting NQT make sense too.
Meanwhile there was no mafia-kill N1 (if we assume Persus' attacker was a hunter) which means could it be that Persus is scum knight? This is my conclusion anyway. It feels more right.
And really, what has there been for me to reply to over the last few pages? It has just been people trying to spin something about a redirect when I'm a type of mystic and don't get redirected. That isn't a thing that happens. The only possibility is that the new role can mess with inspects, but that couldn't happen to both myself and Imp in the same night.this is a fact.
I've explained the logic of how this works, but if you guys suck then what does it really matter to me? Either way my game is over, the priest already decided to blow his load all over the first pretty body he came across.
I have been caring a lot less about this game since claiming, best I can expect to do is live until tonight to absorb the night kill. You guys have my inspect results, if you can't lynch scum from that you have to suck pretty bad.*ahem*
Meph: Can role 'Illusionist' players redirect actions which do not involve their target 'leaving the house' to make the target's action happen?Illusionists are very powerful. Only a select few roles can ignore their magic.
Honestly?
I have been caring a lot less about this game since claimingQuoted out of context.
Tiruin: What does PPE mean? YOu've used it a lot and I don't understand what it means.Please read BM abbreviations. :'(
Okay, thanks.Tiruin: What does PPE mean? YOu've used it a lot and I don't understand what it means.Please read BM abbreviations. :'(
*sniff* *sniff* *sob*
But EBWOP isn't defined there - edit by way of post
I don't go outside at night, seems to me I'm just as immune to redirects as the other types of mystics.Being a scum knight would be perfect. You'd frickin' lie, being oh~ a "SURVIVOR" (quote Imp) which generally pokes on those who wish to survive rather than any ability they can do (which I believe a Knight would follow out as..), and then be immune to attack during the night.
Seriously, why do you think those roles are even bunched up together under a single banner if they don't have a few things in common? Why is it so easy to accept that every other mystic works a certain way, but in my case I must have been redirected, and lying, and also just a bad person in general?
But no, it makes more sense to you that I'm a knight, and therefor also a savior? Because that makes perfect fucking sense. The knight is most likely a survivor, protector at a stretch, but saving other people isn't in the job description, yet we can just overlook that.
What is up is spending most of the game either waiting for people to post, or being unable to post myself, therefor loosing all possible investment in it, and now I simply do not give a single fuck. The game has been going on for a while, it was a lot less satisfying than I recall, can we end this shit? Either lynch Persus so that I get killed tonight, or lynch me and do something productive tomorrow.
Seems like you thought of something new?I got the result of survivor for him, with the symbols Cup, Bread, and Cloth. My character did not lean back and ponder this - this one was simple to her. These are simple things, Max White (refered to as a he in my PM) must be a survivor.Now this is interesting. I can see two possibilities, either your lying for some reason (Poor scum play or a third party that needs me dead) or the inspect was disrupted somehow.
Given that Meph said that there was a role that he accidentally let in that hadn't been seen before, you might be a lyncher and this the chance you have been waiting for. I'm not going to say for sure but it is possible. The other possibility is that there is a role that changes the outcomes of inspects and either the target (Myself) or the inspector (you) got hit with it last night.
I don't go outside at night, seems to me I'm just as immune to redirects as the other types of mystics.
Lonewolf I (town)
You are a Warlock. You have trained long in magic that skirts the boundaries between life and death. In your studies you have learned how to speak with the dead. Each night you may visit a grave and speak freely with the one buried there. Because of your skill in magic, you cannot be blocked or redirected from this action.
Leafsnail (town)
You are a Warlock, a practitioner of secret magic. Using this magic, you have learned to pierce the veil between life and death, and can speak with the dead. To do so, you must visit the grave of the dead person during the night. You well then be able to PM freely with the deceased until the morning light sends the shades back to the underworld.
Ok, maybe it was omitted by mistake - err maybe not, as S3 and S4 also had a warlock, and neither had a PM that mentioned immunity - but again, there was no illusionist in either of those games.
Mr.Person (vampire)
You are a Warlock, a seeker of dark arcane knowledge. Each night you may visit the grave of a deceased player and speak with them. Note that you can only speak with them during the night phase of the game, and only for that night.
CrownOfFire (town)
You are a Warlock, able to use ancient magic to speak with the dead. Each night you may, if you wish, visit the grave of a dead player. You may then PM freely with that player until the next day starts.
expression of pain and anger
I have defended the claim. I pointed out how t was actually better to lynch Persus for all outcomes, but it was pretty much ignored in favor of stupid speculation that doesn't make a lot of sense. I have detailed my thoughts, they are there to read. Do you want me to repeat everything I have said today and call it productive? I gave my case, it was pretty much ignored, now you can all enjoy the same favor.
Meph: Does the Illusionist also..illusionify (heh, ok. Affect) the player as a player and not the house? As in, it affects the player..holistically? And not the darn house?Meph: Can role 'Illusionist' players redirect actions which do not involve their target 'leaving the house' to make the target's action happen?Illusionists are very powerful. Only a select few roles can ignore their magic.
I had fun.R + select ; R + start. Save frame, load game. Or just hope where you're landing is one of those off-screen platforms.
I hope you don't take my posts as anger, I'm just at this point waiting for the end of the day when I stop playing for one reason or another. There is nothing left here to do. It is like playing mario and pausing right before you fall down a hole, you know it will happen sooner or later.
All of this 'Oh look! he must be scum for virtue of not picking apart every post!' is actually pretty funny, from the perspective of the guy who seem to make it his business to end games.
The Illusionist targets the player in question. Anything else is simply flavor.Meph: Does the Illusionist also..illusionify (heh, ok. Affect) the player as a player and not the house? As in, it affects the player..holistically? And not the darn house?Meph: Can role 'Illusionist' players redirect actions which do not involve their target 'leaving the house' to make the target's action happen?Illusionists are very powerful. Only a select few roles can ignore their magic.
OK, so..it does work against mystics. :vThe Illusionist targets the player in question. Anything else is simply flavor.Meph: Does the Illusionist also..illusionify (heh, ok. Affect) the player as a player and not the house? As in, it affects the player..holistically? And not the darn house?Meph: Can role 'Illusionist' players redirect actions which do not involve their target 'leaving the house' to make the target's action happen?Illusionists are very powerful. Only a select few roles can ignore their magic.
...And no the bolded part isn't what I'm irked about. I'm irked that you..played something else, and then..well, missed a contradiction to yer point which is a HUGE accusation. ie Imp's mystic-ness and your mystic-ness.Played something else? Do you even know what you are talking about?
...So Imp was redirected then?...And no the bolded part isn't what I'm irked about. I'm irked that you..played something else, and then..well, missed a contradiction to yer point which is a HUGE accusation. ie Imp's mystic-ness and your mystic-ness.Played something else? Do you even know what you are talking about?
At the very least if I were redirected, I would see somebody elses face.
Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (~1.5 hours)Bloody hell. >_<
I don't know if anybody was redirected! Maybe? Maybe Imp is lying. Maybe there is a different role messing up inspects. Maybe something else.Yes..I'm..sorry DX It's just..argghghghh. The whole talk and the debate and the linking.
Also, seriously, your annoyed because I've been playing a game other than the one I am essentially already dead in? Really Tiruin? I'm only human.
My action PM told me specifically that I cast the runes for Max White. There was nothing in this result PM that suggested anything about my character having any odd experiences, difficulty, or confusion - just like his runes being simple things, Cup Bread Cloth - he must be a survivor.Specifically, survivor? Or you just hinted it?
I don't see faces, but I don't see anything in my PM that I can interpret as being aware of any sense of misdirection or my mind wandering to a different target.
he must be a survivor.Oh come on, you scumlord!
My action PM told me specifically that I cast the runes for Max White. There was nothing in this result PM that suggested anything about my character having any odd experiences, difficulty, or confusion - just like his runes being simple things, Cup Bread Cloth - he must be a survivor.Specifically, survivor? Or you just hinted it?
I don't see faces, but I don't see anything in my PM that I can interpret as being aware of any sense of misdirection or my mind wandering to a different target.
... >.<
This is all my stress talking.
he must be a survivor.Oh come on, you scumlord!
"He is a savior!"
Later on, when you realize that survivor fits your need a little better because then you can say I'm a knight or something.
"He is a survivor!"
Night two I investigated Max White. I picked him for similar reasons to Caz - I'm not suspicious of him, I'm having trouble reading him, and his play's middle ground... Maybe that DOESN'T mean someone's likely to be around to end game, but I still expect that trend.
I got the result of survivor for him, with the symbols Cup, Bread, and Cloth. My character did not lean back and ponder this - this one was simple to her. These are simple things, Max White (refered to as a he in my PM) must be a survivor.
My initial analysis of these results were that he was not-Scum (maybe 3rd party), because I was looking for -nature- flavor to Scum. His three runes are all man made objects. I had no intentions from that result to claim.
But now Max White has claimed an investigator role - and the 'best' one there is (in my opinion) - the one that gives the clearest results possible. I do not see how he could possibly have given me the result survivor while having an investigative role. This has convinced me that my time to claim is now.
This is just insulting. With less time left for people to actually see what you are doing, suddenly the story changes from savior to survivor.
Are you just doing this because there isn't enough time left to stop you? Is that it? It is a 'Screw you, I lynched the cop!' dance before oblivion tomorrow?
Jim: You're...giving up on Max this late? Just like that?
Wait, you actually did claim survivor. I'm sorry, somewhere I got the idea you claimed I was a savior... So where did I get that idea from, I think somebody mentioned it somewhere.
Eh, I'm sure if somebody rereads the thread it will come up, but meh.
But no, it makes more sense to you that I'm a knight, and therefor also a savior? Because that makes perfect fucking sense. The knight is most likely a survivor, protector at a stretch, but saving other people isn't in the job description, yet we can just overlook that.
Toony: ...I'm really unsure if you're too busy to answer my query or..that you're posting to the seemingly more relevant matter at hand.Let me make this clear. I am done with that case. I am through trying to explain to you. I will just assume you're town and not trying to annoy me.
Note. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4770417#msg4770417) :S
If Max survives we can use his Seer ability
Full stop. Toonyman, how much do you believe what you just typed? In order to believe that statement you have to believe that Max truly is a Seer, that Max did not lie. Is that what you intend to say?
@Imp:
You are crazy. I don't know what to respond to but speculating that there may even be another scum team is nonsense (some third-party sure, but another scum team?). I don't have the time to waste the rest of the night responding to your inquires. The day will be over before I could even hit post.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
NQT narrowed his eyes. Just as he'd long believed. Words are wind. Only logical appraisal of the vote record can show us the light.
Once again my analysis was vindicated but my vote choice wasn't: the players who I though were scum from their actions were (Caz and Max, my top picks!) But both Days I chose to follow what people said and play games of psychology. I though Jim was guilty for lying, but he wasn't. And I thought Max was innocent because otherwise he'd be an idiot, but he was an idiot. I feel like a tragic hero that ignored the prophecies to his peril. No longer! I will put faith in my scumetrics. Be right back: there's analysis to be done.
Once again my analysis was vindicated but my vote choice wasn't: the players who I though were scum from their actions were (Caz and Max, my top picks!)
But both Days I chose to follow what people said and play games of psychology.
I feel like a tragic hero that ignored the prophecies to his peril.
I'm still going to reveal your lies. I'm just going to do it much more nicely and without the sarcasm.I appreciate the goodwill and I am confident that you will find no lies.
You've 'analyzed' a lot more than Caz and Max to be your top Scum picks. If what you said were true, you'd have listed Caz and Max consistently as your top picks, and really only them as those picks. But you didn't.
Caz and max were NOT your top picks, unless you call your top picks approximately a third to half of the total list of players. Jim, Persus13, and Imp also have topped your stated lists.
[speculation]You've given a very good explanation of why a scum-NQT would have behaved like I did. All I can say is that these were not my motivations. My vote-analysis showed that Caz and Max were the scummiest but I second-guessed myself and switched my votes to other targets each time. I thought I had good reasons at the time but I was focusing on the wrong things. This makes me look bad, but I'm not sure it's an especially good scum-tactic.
I assume you did this because you were already pretty strongly identified as Scum - that you didn't think actual innocent-looking behavior would fool anyone - that the only hope there was for your Wincon was to get votes somehow off of Max and onto -anyone- (ideally Persus) else.
That's very imaginative. If you are town then you're in for a shock when I flip!QuoteI feel like a tragic hero that ignored the prophecies to his peril.This. Now this I believe.
Scum is a team. Scum is a group. And I bet not all of these plans were yours, NQT. I bet there were prophecies of peril, and I bet you made several of them, but they were ignored. And maybe -you- had to ignore your own prophecies too, because you're part of a team that charged headlong into a dangerous strategy.
Or maybe the plan was yours. Either way, Yeah. I feel sorry for you. Not as sorry as I feel for Max, who was so much a gentleman in his play that I believe he -refused- to really try and save himself because it required taking actions he felt inappropriate to take against a newbie whose comments and questions had rekindled his interest in S Mafia games. I think he saw the ugliness of play required, maybe saw the ugliness I'd faced elsewhere so recently, and decided 'no, I won't go there'. Thanks, Max. I'm sorry I'm not a gentlewoman, and that I would rather chase my win than preserve your playtime. You are the very best of Scum, possibly the very best that Scum could be.Max made an ill-judged gambit. I think he's a nice guy and all, but I don't think he should be praised as a good scum-player.
Adding my own matter into this, NQT. You sounded more like a debater than a psychologist/tester. A debater wherein you defend your stand despite anything, existing otherwise or not.But both Days I chose to follow what people said and play games of psychology.
'Games of psychology', considering you didn't define those games at the time, that's hard to prove or disprove.
I though Jim was guilty for lying, but he wasn'tWhere and what, exactly? As far as I recall, it pertains to one post where you caught him, and proceedingly blew up the case with the add-on of a silencer. It was subtle at the time due to our focus being on other things, but subtleties are seen once people look back.
But it's vital that we stop at least one of the night kills. If NQT is not Scum, or *shiver* if he's not the final Scum - we've pretty much lost, right? Especially if our non-Scum killer is a Serial Killer.I believe it is best for the hunter to claim now given this scenario. Persus, for me, is 99% confirmed town [unless he was DARN WELL BUSSED], which, given the context of Max flippin' scum, at least gives me some solace in my many-tailed theory back there [IE: Max claiming Seer on Knight. Flashback; Knight gets attacked by SWORD-WIELDING HUMAN. It is logical to believe, though up for debate as always, that Persus is a Knight AND unNKillable.]
What do people think about the wisdom of massclaiming at this point?I favor such. However, there is..well, nothing to gain from my role. I will detail such in my next post.
Persus: Reads//Suspicions. Did you learn anything in the night?No. Well my plan for today was to decide on whether or not NQT or Toonyman was our scumpick for the day. And Toony's dead. NQT seemed to be trying to stop Max being lynched and get me lynched instead.
No. Well my plan for today was to decide on whether or not NQT or Toonyman was our scumpick for the day. And Toony's dead. NQT seemed to be trying to stop Max being lynched and get me lynched instead.Okay, if you're town I can understand why you'd be sore about this but I honestly didn't think Max would fakeclaim such an obviously testable role. A hasty mislynch today will cost us the game. You said I OMGUSed today and yet your tentative scumpicks are merely the people that suspected you. Bear in mind that town suspect town.
Adding my own matter into this, NQT. You sounded more like a debater than a psychologist/tester. A debater wherein you defend your stand despite anything, existing otherwise or not.What I meant was, I was focusing on player's potential motivations for why they made assertions (like Jim saying I wouldn't have backed off unless he voted me, and Max claiming he was a seer) rather than their overall game-behaviour. It's very easy to make a mistake or to come up with a last-minute gambit, but it's difficult for scum to play a whole game as-if-they-were-town.
Me? I've played my own game of psychology and its called the response mechanism. How would one respond if I angle the tone a bit. Use some words which would superficially lead to a point. Trail off into the subconscious that, in certain circumstances, the target will more focus on given certain accusations--ie what I said to Caz as him being a liar (though I didn't notice it at the time, I guess this was my driving force..my consciousness works weirdly with my subconscious OR my ability to explain it afterwards).Well, I look forward to seeing whether your method bears fruit today if you do turn out to be town.
Anyhow, let me poke at certain...illnesses with your post, NQT.I'm not sure what you mean by 'with the add-on of a silencer', but on Day 2 I made very clear my case on Jim and my own misgivings with it:QuoteI thought Jim was guilty for lying, but he wasn'tWhere and what, exactly? As far as I recall, it pertains to one post where you caught him, and proceedingly blew up the case with the add-on of a silencer. It was subtle at the time due to our focus being on other things, but subtleties are seen once people look back.
SCUM
Jim - was previously very townish but now pursuing a case that he has twice undermined with his own lies and hypocrisy
Noted here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4754983;topicseen#msg4754983) Second paragraph to the response to Jim [wherein the link can follow via the quoteboxes]. Now checking it..it seems that in that same post [unless there is suitable context to where Jim lied == Jim scum], the allegation of lying = lynch (in that context) is watered down. Diluted. Then added a bit on the top proceeding it.By Day 3, I came to realise that Jim mischaracterisation of our interaction was probably an honest mistake rather than a deliberate deception. You might have noticed by now that I'm not afraid to change my mind.
So what's up there with Jim = lie?
Imp: You didn't inspect NQT?
One thing I'm not talking about yet is my inspection results from last night. I did inspect someone, I did get results. I see reason not to reveal my results yet - I'm going to tentatively assume most of us would prefer to see me verify another's claim rather than have someone verify my claim at this point. But maybe it's best for everyone to not claim (I believe I think it is time for a mass claim, but I'm not sure and I've never been present for one - I'm not sure how to tell when it's time), and if not it might be best for me to not reveal my results either.
...And this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4765254#msg4765254) I skimmed over it to only register the lowermost paragraph in my mind that 'Imp wants NQT dead'.
I believe it is best for the hunter to claim now given this scenario.Only the hunter?
I'm checking back on you and the rest. It is believable, on your case at NQT, but it is also a factor which I didn't check enough that you may be bussing Max. Given your claim as a Fortune Teller, what did you find yesterday?
In my next analytical post (coming very soon!) I will look at the cases and interactions-with known-scum of each player.
Imp— if you inspected me then you know I'm whatever Priest comes up as, right?
I'm especially interested in what you have to say about your interactions with these known Scum, starting from your first post in the game.If you're so convinced I'm scum I'm not sure what you hope to gain from me looking at myself. I will anyway, of course, but why don't you also take an honest look at everyone (temporarily suspending your current suspicions) and tell us what you find?
My first post of my Case on you included a broad comparison of your interactions, -especially- with Max but slightly also with Caz - were different, and -how- they were different, from your interactions with every other player.I addressed your argument about the supposed differences in how I spoke to Max here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4764747#msg4764747). Only you think that there's anything of substance in this line of enquiry.
You didn't have anything to say about that yet. If you do now, I'm interested, especially if you can actually explain your glaringly different behavior in interaction with especially Max (but also Caz) when that behavior is compared to how you interacted with everyone else in the game.
[reasons why you didn't investigate me]So basically, you're so convinced I'm scum you decided to hunt for the hunter instead. The only role that, if you succeed in mislynching me, could save the game for town. Okay.
Eagerly awaiting your follow-up Tiruin. Namely, who did you redirect last night?
Also, that means that Toaster is the only player yet to claim. If everyone has been telling the truth up until now then we know what you're going to say but it will be interesting either way.
Everyone: Post coming up. Net problems. I haven't read every post after Persus' one despite seeing them here because I'm busy fleshing out what I'm saying in MS Word, and quite annoyed at my net for killing off a nice post.
So brevity. If it permits me in the following minutes (yeah, on-off..for extended amounts of time :s)
I am an Illusionist.
N1 - I didn't act. Yes, let me detail this. In brief: I figured the combination of everyone + the prospect of [if I redirect a kill and x dies...] fell between me choosing to act, and me choosing NOT to act. Concluded with not doing anything, and everything proceeding swell--if in case there was another illusionist, then I'd may as well sit back, and check the lines later on. Expounding later.
N2 - Persus to Toony - explanation for what I said D3 will follow.
N3 - Explanation continued from N2 follows. Notes drop down to Toony > Persus. Basically, a reconfiguration of suspicion/action due to proof being proven down on N2.
I think Imp is probably town. I don't know why NQT is trying to do a lynch on Persus now so I'm going to avoid doing that.
I'm being particularly wary of NQT because of his position, but I think he's probably town. There's just that unfortunate possibility that Caz and him are in cahoots. Otherwise (this is how I felt at the beginning of Day 2) I'm pretty confident there would not be two cult priests in a game and NQT's res was successful, as he claims (though I don't think he claimed exactly so until recently...?). Hold your suspicions in moderation.
In any case, I think I'm going to switch my vote to Persus. Seer is a powerful role and can't see why he would lie, it's true. I mainly had my vote towards Max because Imp backed up Persus, but that's about it. There could easily be some form of manipulation and I do not like this feeling. Max's actions after inspecting NQT make sense too.
N3 - Explanation continued from N2 follows. Notes drop down to Toony > Persus. Basically, a reconfiguration of suspicion/action due to proof being proven down on N2.[/b]I've talked to you before about the confusing way you use the word 'note'. So you're saying you redirected Toony to Persus on N3. Do you believe Persus' claim of being a knight?
[claim]As no one has counterclaimed, your claim has a lot of weight to it. I'll think more on this.
Tiruin:I'm looking back at that time, thanks. I'm more along your side as town on the matter, though--yet on due reason because of what I said above and much less on how you and NQT performed....And this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4765254#msg4765254) I skimmed over it to only register the lowermost paragraph in my mind that 'Imp wants NQT dead'.
Huh. Shame that. Least you read more now. What do you understand of my words there now? Do you agree, disagree? Is the entire meaning you get still that 'Imp wants NQT dead.', nothing else of meaning in that pretty short post?
Only the hunter?...He's the only one else who didn't claim other than what we know of today:
In virtue of having the lowest number of suspicions, Tiruin is the top candidate. She was the last on the Max lynch but the first on the Caz lynch. In my next analytical post (coming very soon!) I will look at the cases and interactions-with known-scum of each player.And this does not take in what I said as of yesterday? Interesting how your viewpoint is. Is it judging by superficial examination or have you gone in depth and seen something which I have not, in myself?
As we have either have a serial killer or a monster hunter with terrible judgement (I have a theory as to who it is but I might well be wrong), this is probably LYLO right now. As such we should be even more cautious than normal about who we lynch. Not right now, but before the end of the day we should all share our top scum picks in ranked order: this often works out quite well.I fathom to how or why the former @ bolded portion. And what would lead you to conclude the adjective of the latter.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'with the add-on of a silencer', but on Day 2 I made very clear my case on Jim and my own misgivings with it:..Err, as in it wasn't made that obvious to the general audience--how everyone else swayed, to give a metaphor.
Well, I look forward to seeing whether your method bears fruit today if you do turn out to be town....Meaning whatnow? Pertaining to my method or..?
By Day 3, I came to realise that Jim mischaracterisation of our interaction was probably an honest mistake rather than a deliberate deception. You might have noticed by now that I'm not afraid to change my mind.And the shift from Jim to the current voted at that time came..when? You realized it was an honest mistake based on what precise statement? What was the influencing note?
@Orange: What persuaded you to kill him based on this buying of actions? Is it relevant with the purple?
N3 I didn't buy Toony's sudden switch from Max to Persus. Prior to NQT changing his vote, Toony was content with the Max lynch and had moved on to questioning others. When NQT switched to Persus, though...
PPE: Four. Hi Tiruin!o/
N2 I was worried about Nerjin's res, and the fact he did absolutely nothing relevant D2 gave me a strong "new third party trying to lay low" feeling.Disregard my query on Nerjin.
Guess who voted Persus? ToonyMan! One of my previous targets and suspects. Joyous be I, for whom speaks his words in my intrigue is he who is first to catch the snare!Do note that Toony wasn't the first to vote Persus [Lookin' at you, Max]. The last sentence is of reference to how expressions are made for emphasis.
My analysis correctly judged Max and Caz to be scum. The same analysis now points to you as being scum. I'm now going back over the specific cases that people have made to see which ones had lynch-weight to them.QuoteIn virtue of having the lowest number of suspicions, Tiruin is the top candidate. She was the last on the Max lynch but the first on the Caz lynch. In my next analytical post (coming very soon!) I will look at the cases and interactions-with known-scum of each player.And this does not take in what I said as of yesterday? Interesting how your viewpoint is. Is it judging by superficial examination or have you gone in depth and seen something which I have not, in myself?
There have been two kills every night since night two: so we know there are two people with kills (i.e. a hunter or serial killer). Toaster has murdered three town players: if he is a town hunter he has terrible judgement.QuoteAs we have either have a serial killer or a monster hunter with terrible judgement (I have a theory as to who it is but I might well be wrong), this is probably LYLO right now. As such we should be even more cautious than normal about who we lynch. Not right now, but before the end of the day we should all share our top scum picks in ranked order: this often works out quite well.I fathom to how or why the former @ bolded portion. And what would lead you to conclude the adjective of the latter.
So let me ask: Why, on both counts?
I recall mentioning on D3 that players I thought were town didn't think Jim's action was a big deal.QuoteI'm not sure what you mean by 'with the add-on of a silencer', but on Day 2 I made very clear my case on Jim and my own misgivings with it:..Err, as in it wasn't made that obvious to the general audience--how everyone else swayed, to give a metaphor.
I'm looking forward to seeing your insightful psychological method find the final cult player. (Well, I rather suspect that the final cult player is you yourself, but I look forward to seeing how you pursue cases today).QuoteWell, I look forward to seeing whether your method bears fruit today if you do turn out to be town....Meaning whatnow? Pertaining to my method or..?
And the shift from Jim to the current voted at that time came..when? You realized it was an honest mistake based on what precise statement? What was the influencing note?In between night 2 and day 3 I reflected on the matter, hence why I didn't follow up on Jim the next day. I poked him a bit at the beginning of Day 3 and he didn't do anything else scummy and then Max claimed and I got caught up with that.
Adding @NQT:I said it all on Day 2. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4742292#msg4742292)
Could you detail this bit on the Temple of Death? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4771851#msg4771851)
ToasterQuote@Orange: What persuaded you to kill him based on this buying of actions? Is it relevant with the purple?
N3 I didn't buy Toony's sudden switch from Max to Persus. Prior to NQT changing his vote, Toony was content with the Max lynch and had moved on to questioning others. When NQT switched to Persus, though...
@Purple: ...And this caused you to kill him..why? It was scummy..how?
Buying such to save a buddy..how?
First off, before I do anything else, Tiruin. No one has counterclaimed Toaster and he's confirmed what Persus said. Thus it's either Tiruin or Imp at this stage, my vote-analysis says Tiruin is guilty and the law of post counts says Imp is not scum (she has the most posts in the game and she's least suspicious by way of vote counts). My vote analysis was right for the rest of the game, so I'm trusting it for now while further analysis is ongoing.
Toaster has murdered three town players: if he is a town hunter he has terrible judgement.
A hasty mislynch today will cost us the game.
So... process of elimination? Do you trust your meta-tells enough to lynch over them at this point?Almost. They were so right for everyone else. I'm still going to go over things and double check everyone and ask questions because there's time to do so and I want us to get this right.
Sorry, I should have said 'attempted to murder'.Toaster has murdered three town players: if he is a town hunter he has terrible judgement.Two. Also, I love you too.
I was assuming the hunter (now confirmed to be you) would follow their track record and kill another town, but yeah it's possible we might still win this if there's a mislynch.A hasty mislynch today will cost us the game.Oh really, now? Just how many anti-town do you suspect are still out there?
First off, before I do anything else, Tiruin. No one has counterclaimed Toaster and he's confirmed what Persus said. Thus it's either Tiruin or Imp at this stage, my vote-analysis says Tiruin is guilty and the law of post counts says Imp is not scum (she has the most posts in the game and she's least suspicious by way of vote counts). My vote analysis was right for the rest of the game, so I'm trusting it for now while further analysis is ongoing....Which means? Your vote analysis isn't expounded/ing despite what you say here. A vote analysis wherein you seem so sure, yes decide to vote me without putting down details.
My analysis correctly judged Max and Caz to be scum. The same analysis now points to you as being scum. I'm now going back over the specific cases that people have made to see which ones had lynch-weight to them.Your analysis is a generality--considering that it includes the prospect of Max//Caz to be scum, instead of directly judging them SPECIFICALLY. ie FoS'ing suspects.
I recall mentioning on D3 that players I thought were town didn't think Jim's action was a big deal.Calling it a lie then making it part of a logical reasoning--when said reasoning is discarded as you said yourself--seems like a big deal here.
*might*?I was assuming the hunter (now confirmed to be you) would follow their track record and kill another town, but yeah it's possible we might still win this if there's a mislynch.A hasty mislynch today will cost us the game.Oh really, now? Just how many anti-town do you suspect are still out there?
Analysis 4@bolded part: 'Know'?
In my previous (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4748725#msg4748725)two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4762504#msg4762504) analytical posts, I successfully predicted the scum-status of Max and Caz. Let's repeat the same procedures and see what we get.Spoiler: # People Voted Day 3 (click to show/hide)
Day 3's vote-count results aren't that interesting on their own: Max claimed early and all votes were either for him or the counter-claimants, Persus and Imp. I know that one of the scum must have bussed Max so I'll be looking over at the timings and reasons for each of the votes on him. But first, let's look at the global results for all four days so far (-1 for Persus if you just want Days 1-3)
ToasterLogic dictates that you leave a vote on me without sustainable evidence, then? Or are you just signalling what 'the vote analysis' leaves?So... process of elimination? Do you trust your meta-tells enough to lynch over them at this point?Almost. They were so right for everyone else. I'm still going to go over things and double check everyone and ask questions because there's time to do so and I want us to get this right.
Here is why I did not immediately claim my results this D:Reasons behind Toony's note? You could just say it given that I compiled the links to his posts.
I too was suspicious of Toony. I trusted -if- he wasn't the killer, and -if- the killer wasn't Town, Toony was a very good pro-Town kill choice in my thinking.
To me, I know I'm Town but I can accept that I may be borderline to the rest of you thus possibly actually Scum (if so, I've sure been a bold bold Scum, and my partner Max took my wiping him off the board, in preference to someone claiming to be a knight super calmly... Max must REALLY want to play a different game instead (that rain one maybe) and didn't want to replace, eh? - That insult applies only if I'm Scum - and Max knows if I am or not. Thank you again, Max, for being very much a gentleman. I'd love to play again in the same game with you - for me especially your playstyle has a great calming effect, and I feel like I can trust you the player even if I cannot trust your role - You would be a PERFECT IC for BMs I think, if you wanted to do that)I'm a silly skeptic so I'll forward the idea (rather than a night plan) of really checking who to lynch today. Sure, guessing that those voting Max may be bussing him instead given the quality of cases against him, and a point is taken on caution in how bussing happens here.
Because the killer claimed, -and- because that killer is Toaster, who I think is very, very experienced, calm, and the sort who thinks far ahead, I'm pretty sure Toaster is Town Hunter. Toaster's best chance of a win as SK would be to claim anything else (werebear, the PGO, is a known claim that could 'hide' a killer from a fortune teller as another type of killer and probably the best false claim for this circumstance).
So I'm a darn happy player.
I think Toaster, Tiruin, and Perses are all Town, I know I am Town, and I trust that we have two chances to kill NQT, who I'm so very very sure is Scum. Since I'm this sure that Toaster, Tiruin, and Perses are all Town, I'm even perfectly happy to die today if I am so borderline that most of you, especially Toaster, think I'm likely to be Scum/more likely to be Scum than NQT.
If the decision is to lynch me, my only request is - Toaster - when you see me flip Town Fortune Teller - kill NQT tonight.
Tiruin and Perses - if I flip Town Fortune Teller, there's only one kill N4 and that kill is the disappearance of Toaster (meaning Toaster died before he could kill his target) - lynch NQT.
I think this game is solved, and solved for a Town win.
Full thoughts on the 'track record' thing, please? By due observation, we see that there're only 2 other roles unclaimed during D4 start.I was assuming the hunter (now confirmed to be you) would follow their track record and kill another town, but yeah it's possible we might still win this if there's a mislynch.A hasty mislynch today will cost us the game.Oh really, now? Just how many anti-town do you suspect are still out there?
How did you see yourself being a lynch candidate?I'm perfectly happy to talk through the day. To use both extensions.
How did you see yourself being a lynch candidate?
Tiruin- She is the second most scummy at the moment, as Illusionist seems like an easy role to fake-claim right now. However, she tunneled Caz fairly strongly for two days straight and helped to lynch him. Other a single vote on Cmega, she's voted confirmed scum. So she seems town.
Well, S2 didn't have a third-party until a guy got rezzed as a demon, so games have started with no third-parties before.
Pandarsenic (other)
You are a Ghoul. A strange, twisted being that exists on the border between life and death. Your mind has been warped by the constant pull of these forces, and you only find release in the death of others.
Each night you may either choose to Kill another player or Consume a dead player. If you Consume a dead player your next Night Kill will be powered by dark magic, and you will be unstoppable.
You win when all other players are dead.
S4 however, did start with no third parties.Well, S2 didn't have a third-party until a guy got rezzed as a demon, so games have started with no third-parties before.
I disagree.Pandarsenic (other)
You are a Ghoul. A strange, twisted being that exists on the border between life and death. Your mind has been warped by the constant pull of these forces, and you only find release in the death of others.
Each night you may either choose to Kill another player or Consume a dead player. If you Consume a dead player your next Night Kill will be powered by dark magic, and you will be unstoppable.
You win when all other players are dead.
He's easy to miss - he died N1 to the Cult.
S4 however, did start with no third parties.Well, S2 didn't have a third-party until a guy got rezzed as a demon, so games have started with no third-parties before.
I disagree.Pandarsenic (other)
You are a Ghoul. A strange, twisted being that exists on the border between life and death. Your mind has been warped by the constant pull of these forces, and you only find release in the death of others.
Each night you may either choose to Kill another player or Consume a dead player. If you Consume a dead player your next Night Kill will be powered by dark magic, and you will be unstoppable.
You win when all other players are dead.
He's easy to miss - he died N1 to the Cult.
lordnincompoop (other)
You are a Guardian Angel, sent to earth to protect Pandarsenic. Your one and only goal is to ensure that he lives to see the end of this nightmare. The heavens have plans for him in the future.
Each night you may choose to use a protection charm on your ward. You may choose from the following: Protection from Night Kills, Protection from Conversion, Protection from Investigation, Protection from Judgement (the next day your ward will require 1 more vote to lynch than usual)
Leafsnail (other)
You are a Devil, here to seduce the folk of this town into surrendering their souls for power. Each night you may select a player to Offer Power to. You may offer them one of the following powers:
o One-shot Night Kill (or an unblockable night kill if they have a normal one)
o One-shot Protection
o One-shot Role-block
o One-shot Investigation of a player's Role and Faction
o One-shot Redirection
How you wish to phrase the offer is entirely up to you (all, some, or only one of the options). You can grant any of those powers, although only one per person. If the player accepts, then you gain their soul and they gain the power.
The offer is made through me, in order to hide your identity.
Once you have 3 souls you win, taking all of those who souls you took with you back to the hells.
Ok wow, that was a typo. I meant S5 not S4. S4 clearly had third-parties, I just hit the wrong button by mistake.
Dariush (other)
You have lived in this town a long, long time. As a b]Wererat[/b], your focus has always been on maintaining your anonymity and Surviving. Werecreatures have a bit of a bad rap, even those that don’t have it out for the town. With the recent murders, you’re going to have to work extra hard to keep people from finding out what you are and lynching you.
Okay, wow, I fail at quick reading. I could have sworn one of the Supernaturals started without a third-party role. And I missed Dariush because his role wasn't bolded. But I'm not a third party.
I'd like to hear more from Tiruin and Toaster.
Out of curiousity, is Exorcist the new role Meph mentioned?
Out of curiousity, is Exorcist the new role Meph mentioned?
Jokerman-EXE (town)
You are an Exorcist, trained in ancient magics to drive off Demons and Devils from this world. You wander the lands, seeking out the taint of evil and banishing it back to the hells. Once during the game you may perform an Exorcism on another player during the Night. If that player is a Demon or Devil, the malevolent spirit will be banished. If they are pure, they have nothing to fear.
Then what is the new role?Out of curiousity, is Exorcist the new role Meph mentioned?
Oh, and it can't be. From S5 again -Jokerman-EXE (town)
You are an Exorcist, trained in ancient magics to drive off Demons and Devils from this world. You wander the lands, seeking out the taint of evil and banishing it back to the hells. Once during the game you may perform an Exorcism on another player during the Night. If that player is a Demon or Devil, the malevolent spirit will be banished. If they are pure, they have nothing to fear.
Yeah, but it seems like both sides were given pretty strong roles.Then what is the new role?Out of curiousity, is Exorcist the new role Meph mentioned?
Oh, and it can't be. From S5 again -Jokerman-EXE (town)
You are an Exorcist, trained in ancient magics to drive off Demons and Devils from this world. You wander the lands, seeking out the taint of evil and banishing it back to the hells. Once during the game you may perform an Exorcism on another player during the Night. If that player is a Demon or Devil, the malevolent spirit will be banished. If they are pure, they have nothing to fear.
Eeyeah, that is what caused my confusion--it wasn't noted before, but then I didn't check that rolelist. Only when checking that rolelist did I see the Exorcist (and thus my shame).Out of curiousity, is Exorcist the new role Meph mentioned?
Oh, and it can't be. From S5 again -Jokerman-EXE (town)
You are an Exorcist, trained in ancient magics to drive off Demons and Devils from this world. You wander the lands, seeking out the taint of evil and banishing it back to the hells. Once during the game you may perform an Exorcism on another player during the Night. If that player is a Demon or Devil, the malevolent spirit will be banished. If they are pure, they have nothing to fear.
The fact that Max made a potentially suicidal fakeclaim is very strong evidence that there is one more cultist out there.What makes you think there is one other out there? As in, what are your - and your own - thoughts on that matter? I'll give my reasoning, and it doesn't primarily base itself on the quoted statement here.
Tiruin: Claimed illusionist. Reasonable target choice, but no confirmation. Claim strength: 4/10 due to lack of confirmation....*shakes fist at illusionist role*
ToasterQuote@Orange: What persuaded you to kill him based on this buying of actions? Is it relevant with the purple?
N3 I didn't buy Toony's sudden switch from Max to Persus. Prior to NQT changing his vote, Toony was content with the Max lynch and had moved on to questioning others. When NQT switched to Persus, though...
@Purple: ...And this caused you to kill him..why? It was scummy..how?
Buying such to save a buddy..how?
Verdict: I need to go over all of NQT and Tiruin's posts again. I still doubt it's Imp or Persus.'Or'? So there are levels of suspicion on each? [ALSO IMP IS FEMALE D:<]
Kills use human-style weaponry flavor, which is consisted with Super1 vampire hunter.Partly out of mafia context but: We're still going on this style of concluding? Nobody counterclaimed you, and by valid reasoning--you're a hunter (or someone else is hiding it but I see no reason not to claim//counterclaim at this point in time).
You're my second scumpick because Imp and Toaster both seem strongly Town, or at least, not-scum, and NQT seems majorly scummy. Also because it would be easier to fake-claim your role, yes....Yes, I get the declarative. I mean why. Any role could be fakeclaimed, and as such, I'm checking back on those posts on whether the probability of a bus is more rational or logical than not--something you don't seem to be doing.
So, you suggesting we have a Survivor third-party?
I've to note that, even in your analysis, Your analysis is a generality--considering that it includes the prospect of Max//Caz to be scum, instead of directly judging them SPECIFICALLY. ie FoS'ing suspects.This is a new kind of scumhunting. I'm saying the meta-data (voting patterns, post counts etc.) correctly showed Max and Caz to be the scummiest players and so I have good reason for suspecting you too as you're the next scummiest by this metric.
I believe the same analysis, on observation, includes me as 'scummy' instead--or are you trying to twist something there? Because that's what I'm feeling on how the direct hop is going. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4762504#msg4762504)
You didn't read my posts, did you?Of course I read your posts. But I put more faith in people's actions than what they say. If, after completing my next round of analysis, I still find you guilty I'll present further reasons for that being the case. For now, I'm trusting the voting patterns.
Reasons and case-basis on me, NQT. I'd love to read them.
Calling it a lie then making it part of a logical reasoning--when said reasoning is discarded as you said yourself--seems like a big deal here.Not really. I often change my mind when new information comes to light or when I gain a fresh perspective on old information.
*might*?I was assuming the hunter was going to kill another townplayer in the night, but apparently Toaster has decided to show restraint.
Ello, there is 1 scum and 4 town. Mislynch 1, 3 town. NK 1, 2 town. With a Persus being there as honorable proof.
NQT..how or why does your analysis reflect differently from...the lynch vote count here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4772719#msg4772719)?Have you not being paying any attention whatsoever?! I count the number of separate individuals a person has voted for during the day, not just who they happened to be voting at the end of the day. In fact, I track everyone's vote and their reasons for the vote in a spreadsheet.
The only people not voting Max were a now-confirmed townie and myself, so of course I know scum bussed Max! The numbers next to people's names in my analysis are the number of people those players have actively suspected in the day. Of the five players left alive, you've actively suspected the least number of players. Keeping a low-profile is the greatest scum-tell.I know that one of the scum must have bussed Max@bolded part: 'Know'?
..Wait, erk. It was interesting though, how that was worded (..you're the only other voting for Persus) but..bleh. Anyway.
What's with how you format that list anyway? Toony is in a separate box. You are in a separate box.
Logic dictates that you leave a vote on me without sustainable evidence, then? Or are you just signalling what 'the vote analysis' leaves?Basically, I'm signalling that you are the number one suspect but I might change my mind if further investigation shows this to be untenable.
Also that means you saw him breathing..which means he was alive due to respiratory function. Which generally leads to the everything-else-function like circulation . . .Bleh. Putting it aside but..it strikes me as weird how that happened (most @Meph but :P I've got Priest notes on the before-time)I saw proof that he was definitely alive. I'd be a pretty rubbish resurrection if I'd just left him there without seeing if he was really alive.
..Though I haven't read anything on 'visually seeing him [RESPIRE]' anywhoo.
"Track record"? And "Kill another Town"?'Track record' is an idiom (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+track+record)basically meaning 'collective accomplishments and failings'. I was saying that Toaster has consistently targeted town players to kill in the night and so I have little faith that he'd successfully pick scum on the last night.
Clarify.
Imp- I'm pretty sure Imp's town. If Imp hadn't roleclaimed, I would have been the one to swing yesterday, as 3 players voted me, one said he would have if Imp hadn't claimed, and scum Imp would have voted me as well, which would have been enough to hang me.This makes a lot of sense but I'm going to go over Day 3 again to double-check how things went down.
Tiruin- She is the second most scummy at the moment, as Illusionist seems like an easy role to fake-claim right now. However, she tunneled Caz fairly strongly for two days straight and helped to lynch him. Other a single vote on Cmega, she's voted confirmed scum. So she seems town.Yeah this how I thought at first. But then... tunnelling your team mates (as unproductive as it looks) is definitely a way to avoid general suspicion as you look active and productive withotu risking drawing the unwanted attention of genuine town. I'm going to be looking into it today.
NQT-NQT has seemed scummy to me, mainly for the "no rational reason why Max could fake-claim" business. Max had the opportunity to get away with it, especially as he didn't have to fear the Monster Hunter. He accuses me of voting him for voting me, and he would be exactly right. NQT did everything he could to try and get me or Imp lynched instead of Max lynched, and if he had convinced more than Toonyman, he would have succeeded. I highly doubt that at this stage of the game someone would do an elaborate bus of Max when his lynch of me would have succeeded if it hadn't been for Imp. In addition, the fact that his primary means of voting someone has consistently shown him on top and thus, ultra-town is also suspicious. Another thing that seems suspicious to me is the flavor of NQT's resurrection. The Temple of Death seems something different and separate then normal resurrections, which usually happen in a graveyard. NQT prays to the gods. This gives me a very pagan feel to it. He also said he prayed to the gods. I may be assuming something here (I'm a Christian), but I assumed the priests in this were monotheistic. Finally there's NQT's interactions with scum. D1 he and Max have a huge battle, that then turns into them and Caz ganging up on Nerjin when he took NQT's side. D2 he voted Caz, then switched to Jim. D3 he voted Max, then switched to me. That seems like a guy trying to appear town by voting scum, but avoiding actually following through.So at the time I couldn't fathom why a rational Max would fakeclaim seer. Now I know he was a knight and was hoping to draw the attention of the hunter, I can kind of see why he did it. But at the time!
Verdict: I need to go over all of NQT and Tiruin's posts again. I still doubt it's Imp or Persus.Whoever is scum, scum have voted scum in this game. Tiruin on Caz, Imp on Max, Max on me and Persus etc. We've got to work out which bus was most likely.
There's nothing else possible, right?Well, Meph did say words on that special role--as far, nobody has claimed it so the thought borders on it being scum or at least, non-town aligned (benevolent/malevolent thirdparty). Since nobody claimed it prior to our debate now, it is safe to say that either the wincon is not compatible with town and its hiding out, or it is scum and fakeclaimed (early or late).
Have you not being paying any attention whatsoever?! I count the number of separate individuals a person has voted for during the day, not just who they happened to be voting at the end of the day. In fact, I track everyone's vote and their reasons for the vote in a spreadsheet.Oh, I have, NQT. I just have one sharp point prodding my shoulder.
This is a new kind of scumhunting. I'm saying the meta-data (voting patterns, post counts etc.) correctly showed Max and Caz to be the scummiest players and so I have good reason for suspecting you too as you're the next scummiest by this metric.What exactly is that metric?
The only people not voting Max were a now-confirmed townie and myself, so of course I know scum bussed Max! The numbers next to people's names in my analysis are the number of people those players have actively suspected in the day. Of the five players left alive, you've actively suspected the least number of players. Keeping a low-profile is the greatest scum-tell.(By obvious logic, if you didn't know scum bussed Max, then there's only one culprit.)
I guess it should have been more immediately obvious, but Max's plan must have been to get Persus mislynched in order to have the hunter target him at night. As he was a knight, the attack wouldn't have worked. Perhaps they were afraid of town lynching scum during the day and the hunter getting the final scum at night.When or where did you get this idea?
Continued query: On your advance to ToonyMan, why him instead of the other person - like NQT, who was of reasonable suspicion?Fix'd.
I said I thought Toaster wasn't scum. I believe he is some sort of killer role because of a lack of a counterclaim, and because why wouldn't he fake-claim. Some had to claim hunter, and his reasons for attacking people sound legitimate. Imp almost singlehandedly caused Max's lynch. I think that is reason enough to declare her town. While a bus is possible, I see other people as much more scummy than Imp. Your role has had no effect on the game and so is easier to fake-claim, as you could claim several ineffective roles. And I'd like to say that when I say you're my second scumpick you still seem very town-like to me.It only clicked in my mind recently.
Imp you going to place vote?
Imp - Has yet to press a lynch case as we're nearing the end of the day despite being generally active
about Max White:So, rather than kill Max or even Persus she thinks that they should lynch... NQT! She labels her section 'about Max' but really it's all about killing NQT. But she doesn't vote yet.
He has claimed to inspect notquitethere and get benign, to inspect Persus13 and get malevolent.
Notquitethere has opened the day with a vote on Max White, for reasons he stated near the end of D2.
If we lynch Persus13 D3 and get a Town result, then we obviously lynch Max D4 - I assume we get a Scum result?
Then we decide if we want to lynch notquitethere or not. It's already D5 at that point.
We had two night kills last night. Neither are kills of high powered active people. Is there any chance we're dealing with a conversion cult? I... I don't think so. But just in case, I lean towards lynching notquitethere first at this point. There's something -weird- about this set up and especially weird about notquitethere's behavior. I'm going to think more about it and I'm talking about it so everyone else can think about it too. I don't think notquitethere 'usually' makes this many contradictions in his play and I'm burning my mind trying to understand why he is now.
That said, I bet most all of you still want Max White lynched first. I'm willing - but I'm serious about being scared about it. If NQT -is- a converter - we're probably in deep trouble if we don't kill him first. So I'll support the Max White lynch, totally - but I'll switch faster than fast to NQT if people agree he's the better D3 lynch - if we have a converter, we have NO time to waste. If we don't have a converter, order doesn't matter at all.
I want to give the game the game a proper look over before I push a Day 2 case in earnest, so unvote for now, but I might be back.
Max and Caz did well on the questioning test but have only pressed one lynch case on one person in the entire game. This clear lack of genuine suspicion and reluctance to draw negative attention is not a town trait.
Caz's day end lynch vote on Nerjin was an RVS vote!
The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Caz: Toaster, Tiruin
Toaster: Persus13
notquitethere: Jim Groovester, Max White
Persus13: Caz
Tiruin: ToonyMan
Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Friday. There will be no more extensions this day.
Cmega3Max white, could you please calm down a bit?I'd implore you to address quite much everything directed to you as of late, because its pretty...curious how you've been acting.
You are acting rather weird.
Tiruin tilts her hat 45 degrees to the right and looks directly at you.
What's up, son? What do you understand about Mafia?
QuoteThis is a new kind of scumhunting. I'm saying the meta-data (voting patterns, post counts etc.) correctly showed Max and Caz to be the scummiest players and so I have good reason for suspecting you too as you're the next scummiest by this metric.What exactly is that metric?
I'd love for you to expound on the bolded part - who do you see I've suspected that makes you say such things? How it makes me scum in regard to what I've said, please.During the Witches game I discovered that measuring the number of people that separate players votes for is a great way of finding town players, as town tend to vote for a wider range of suspects than scum. Of the players left alive, you've voted for the fewest number of suspects. On this measure, you look the least town. I've since gone and looked at all your votes and your lack of suspects is really due to focusing on Caz all of Day 2 and then following the crowd and lynching Max on Day 3. I'm conflicted as to whether you're just amazing at distancing/bussing or you're just very single-focused in this game.
@underlined: Expound then compare to your target. I see your vote more like a marker than not given that I've a good feeling we can debate the face of the earth away today and end up more than not, probably safe tomorrow.I'm very unclear as to what you're trying to say here.
It's the only thing that makes sense given that Max fakeclaimed a seer while he was in fact a knight. Do you have an alternative explanation?QuoteI guess it should have been more immediately obvious, but Max's plan must have been to get Persus mislynched in order to have the hunter target him at night. As he was a knight, the attack wouldn't have worked. Perhaps they were afraid of town lynching scum during the day and the hunter getting the final scum at night.When or where did you get this idea?
Tiruin was on Caz on Day 1 and returns to have him lynched on Day 2 (despite the fact that she would have gained little suspicion for continuing to vote Cmega on Day 2)....
They'd lynch Max for fakeclaiming and in the night they'd kill another town player.Precluding my presence somehow? I can disrupt attacks, and by D3 I was more than enough convinced about Persus' Persus-ness.
The 3rd scum would have previously distanced themselves heavily from Max as they know he's going to be lynched eventually....Why? What is there to gain from distancing themselves from a scummy target?
But they'd need a fall guy for the hunter to kill or town to lynch after Max's death. How would a fake seer set up a fall guy? By claiming he's innocent and trying to get him on side. In the words of Lee Harvey Oswald, "I'm a patsy!"I can't see how the 'but' connects this with the statement quoted above..(also, fall guy? New term :D)
My lynch analysis says Tiruin is scum and it was dead on right for Max and Caz.Uh huh. On what basis?! I don't see how your lynch analysis directly says people are scum. It gives who may be scum based on action, but not what is direct given how the word 'says' is there. I stand by my principle that the analysis should also bring in--or better yet, how the player using said analysis interprets--by the essence of how the player's action is and not primarily by...superficial observing.
And she finally voted for Caz when her vote would have no impact and there was no possibility of lynching anyone else.Do you not think that she'd rather show her intent than stay silent? Since you've browsed far back there, I'd like to hear what you thought of her choices in the expenditures of her vote.
So, rather than kill Max or even Persus she thinks that they should lynch... NQT! She labels her section 'about Max' but really it's all about killing NQT. But she doesn't vote yet.You do note that she also suspected an illusionist, yes? As in, someone who would contend with:
The chances of a Max lynch look increasingly certain, and Imp redoubles her efforts to get NQT lynched instead, before eventually voting Max when it looked like a certain thing[...]What are your thoughts on Max at the time?
...NQT: I really don't like how you state as a general conclusion rather than poke on why the person did their vote and any suceeding explanations on it.It doesn't really matter why people make their votes most of the time as most town player's votes are for people that don't turn out to be scum. I don't care if you don't like the way I scum hunt: as the record shows it's a lot more reliable than regular methods.
You seem to be scumhunting only in pattern. A very fallible method of scumhunting (though the method you propose does have merit in eliminating suspects via their interaction, how you go through with it has error).What does this even mean? I looked at the players patterns of voting. Due to the obvious reason that it is very easy for scum to invent reasons to vote players, while obviously dodgy vote-reasons should be questioned, in general looking at a person's overall pattern of voting is most effective.
Precluding my presence somehow? I can disrupt attacks, and by D3 I was more than enough convinced about Persus' Persus-ness.Right, so you're saying that the scumteam would know about your abilities when making plans on Day 3. What are you trying to tell us, Tiruin?
Obviously it makes sense for scum to distance themselves from fellow-scum that they know are going to be lynched.QuoteThe 3rd scum would have previously distanced themselves heavily from Max as they know he's going to be lynched eventually....Why? What is there to gain from distancing themselves from a scummy target?
Read the word 'but' as 'and'. A fall guy is someone that is innocent but takes the blame. The scapegoat. The patsy. That's me. I'm saying I'm the fall guy. Their plan was always to have Max lynched and me look scummy while they did it, to set me up for a mislynch.QuoteBut they'd need a fall guy for the hunter to kill or town to lynch after Max's death. How would a fake seer set up a fall guy? By claiming he's innocent and trying to get him on side. In the words of Lee Harvey Oswald, "I'm a patsy!"I can't see how the 'but' connects this with the statement quoted above..(also, fall guy? New term :D)
Also..who is this fall guy here? The hunter can't kill Persus (as proven) so..ehh? You vote Imp, and then state this. Bolded the word for emphasis.
The analysis ranks the players in order of scumminess. It's better at predicting who's most likely to be town. My vote is on Imp at the moment because I don't think it's impossible for the analysis to be wrong here, but it heavily suggests that you're the remaining scum. I've gone back and looked at the reasons why you had so few targets, and the reason seems to be you were quite effectively hunting scum, and that's part of the reason why I've switched my vote to Imp. My suspicions of you are meta-tell suspicions.QuoteMy lynch analysis says Tiruin is scum and it was dead on right for Max and Caz.Uh huh. On what basis?! I don't see how your lynch analysis directly says people are scum. It gives who may be scum based on action, but not what is direct given how the word 'says' is there. I stand by my principle that the analysis should also bring in--or better yet, how the player using said analysis interprets--by the essence of how the player's action is and not primarily by...superficial observing.
I mean all this, and I have yet to see you poke directly at my posts and why/how I voted what I voted. I did explain myself--I don't see you delving into that part.
Query on your case on Imp:I'd rather she voted during the actual day rather than in the last post of the day! Day 1 she did no voting then tied the vote nearly at the last moment. Day 2 she did no voting before using her vote in a token way. Day 3 she begrudgingly votes for Max despite the fact she apparently called him out on a false vote. It doesn't matter who she voted for, the way she voted was scummy.QuoteAnd she finally voted for Caz when her vote would have no impact and there was no possibility of lynching anyone else.Do you not think that she'd rather show her intent than stay silent? Since you've browsed far back there, I'd like to hear what you thought of her choices in the expenditures of her vote.
How do you interpret it? (and by interpret I don't mean in a statistical way, I mean how do you view it, descriptively)
She thought she should lynch you due to your actions. Have you any say on those?She had a bizarre case based on me being a converter when that wasn't even a possibility. It looked very much like she was clutching at reasons to vote me.
While I do get the details of someone hopping off the bandwagon so late in time, I throw caution to where I see and have to poke at one thing.As I said at the time, I wasn't too upset that Max was being lynched because I thought he was really scummy, but I couldn't (at the time) work out why he'd fake claim seer so it appeared to me that Imp must be lying. I think Imp was acting bizarrely and it was clear that neither Toony nor Jim thought her case had any merit. The vote on Max wasn't unreasonable given the counterclaim, I just had doubts about Max's sanity if he was fakeclaiming. I now see why he may have fakeclaimed and it makes a bit more sense. Recall that at the time I wasn't arguing that Max was town, only that I didn't think he was fakeclaiming. I didn't take into account the possibility of him being a knight and trying to draw a hunter attack.QuoteThe chances of a Max lynch look increasingly certain, and Imp redoubles her efforts to get NQT lynched instead, before eventually voting Max when it looked like a certain thing[...]What are your thoughts on Max at the time?
What did you think of Imp's efforts against you at the time, compared to how the status quo were acting?
How do you interpret the vote on Max?
PFP
ToasterQuoteThe fact that Max made a potentially suicidal fakeclaim is very strong evidence that there is one more cultist out there.What makes you think there is one other out there? As in, what are your - and your own - thoughts on that matter? I'll give my reasoning, and it doesn't primarily base itself on the quoted statement here.
Continued query: On your advance to ToonyMan, why him instead of the otQuoteThis makes sense, however I've to wonder if you considered Imp's behavior (in which I've to ask what were your reads - preferably in a list - on everyone @D3) a note on NQT.ToasterQuote@Orange: What persuaded you to kill him based on this buying of actions? Is it relevant with the purple?
N3 I didn't buy Toony's sudden switch from Max to Persus. Prior to NQT changing his vote, Toony was content with the Max lynch and had moved on to questioning others. When NQT switched to Persus, though...
@Purple: ...And this caused you to kill him..why? It was scummy..how?
Buying such to save a buddy..how?
I thought he was reasonably likely to be scum, so I was willing to off him. His change seemed a bit sudden, forced, and contradictory. Yes, the two things you colored are linked. Since he had moved on, that signaled that he was thinking "Okay, Max is lynched. Let's start working on the next target for the next day." This is a reasonable and townlike behavior. When NQT switched, though, suddenly he's waffling and going back on what he said. This is not townlike behavior.
QuoteVerdict: I need to go over all of NQT and Tiruin's posts again. I still doubt it's Imp or Persus.'Or'? So there are levels of suspicion on each? [ALSO IMP IS FEMALE D:<]
Point being, if we take everything at first glance, nothing points to a straight answer (we're all mentioning 'someone bussed' wherein the only notable candidate between us all for majority town-ship ness is Persus).
QuoteKills use human-style weaponry flavor, which is consisted with Super1 vampire hunter.Partly out of mafia context but: We're still going on this style of concluding? Nobody counterclaimed you, and by valid reasoning--you're a hunter (or someone else is hiding it but I see no reason not to claim//counterclaim at this point in time).
..Or just emphasizing yourself. Egoistical much?
It probably can or can't be Imp
Toaster:Continued query: On your advance to ToonyMan, why him instead of the other person - like NQT, who was of reasonable suspicion?Fix'd.
Also, do you have any kind of modification to your role as a hunter? We haven't seen any kind of monster or otherwise--and I believe that the Exorcist (Jim) covered the ground of moral-aligned (where does one classify demons/devils?) enemies.
First off, before I do anything else, Tiruin. No one has counterclaimed Toaster and he's confirmed what Persus said. Thus it's either Tiruin or Imp at this stage, my vote-analysis says Tiruin is guilty and the law of post counts says Imp is not scum (she has the most posts in the game and she's least suspicious by way of vote counts). My vote analysis was right for the rest of the game, so I'm trusting it for now while further analysis is ongoing.
My lynch analysis says Tiruin is scum and it was dead on right for Max and Caz. Should I follow it to the end and vote Tiruin, or should I follow what the Vote Stories seem to be saying and push for an Imp lynch...? Right now, I'm leaning Imp, but next I'm going to look at scum interactions with Tiruin and Imp before the end of the day tomorrow.
# people voted not counting RVS & FOS:
1. Caz
2. Cmega Max
3. Nerjin Tiruin
4. Jim Toaster
5. Persus, Imp, Toony
7. NQT
It would be absolutely irrational for me to be Scum and roleclaim to attempt to get Max lynched. If Perses is telling the truth about being a knight, the only way to get rid of him is to lynch him. If he's lying about being a knight, my Scum-perspective would probably be 'yay, Seer revealed, we're getting rid of a competitive and dangerous third party today, and maybe that Seer tonight - if not, we're definitely getting rid of someone else tonight! - I have NO reason to prefer a lynch of Max to a lynch of Perses.OK. I've given it some more thought, and you know what, I think that you're right. It would be pretty irrational of you to fakeclaim a fortuneteller result just to have Max lynched (though he potentially is the cop) unless it was part of some weird gambit. OK. Unvote.
It's completely irrational for either of you to fakeclaim your inspect roles as they're so easy to confirm. If I assume that both of you are telling the truth then one of you must have been redirected (I don't think it's possible for you both to have been redirected given that no illusionist has claimed). If both of you are telling the truth, then you must have been the one to be redirected. The scum or third-party illusionist would then be keeping quiet with the hope of getting both you and Max lynched. If that's the case then Persus really is malicious.
Max— You sheeped Jim's vote and left it there with this as your argument:
...
Toaster and Tiruin for their very longstanding cases against Caz get many town points in my eyes. There's no good reason why they'd have pursued those cases for so long (yeah, yeah, to seem town, but really that kind of early-form bussing is usually counterproductive). Persus hopped on and off the Caz-wagon, but I'm not sure I'd draw any strong conclusions either way from that.
It doesn't really matter why people make their votes most of the time as most town player's votes are for people that don't turn out to be scum.
It looked very much like she was clutching at reasons to vote me.
[...]Right now, I'm leaning Imp, but next I'm going to look at scum interactions with Tiruin and Imp before the end of the day tomorrow...."Before the end of day tomorrow?"
Tiruin...Do you think that me voting the least # of people is directly proportional to how I regard those people as scum or not despite me stating my notes and the psychological imperative of an apparent publicly show instead of lightly concealing the assertive suspicion in your tone/words?QuoteThis is a new kind of scumhunting. I'm saying the meta-data (voting patterns, post counts etc.) correctly showed Max and Caz to be the scummiest players and so I have good reason for suspecting you too as you're the next scummiest by this metric.What exactly is that metric?I'd love for you to expound on the bolded part - who do you see I've suspected that makes you say such things? How it makes me scum in regard to what I've said, please.During the Witches game I discovered that measuring the number of people that separate players votes for is a great way of finding town players, as town tend to vote for a wider range of suspects than scum. Of the players left alive, you've voted for the fewest number of suspects. On this measure, you look the least town. I've since gone and looked at all your votes and your lack of suspects is really due to focusing on Caz all of Day 2 and then following the crowd and lynching Max on Day 3. I'm conflicted as to whether you're just amazing at distancing/bussing or you're just very single-focused in this game.
I'm conflicted as to whether you're just amazing at distancing/bussing or you're just very single-focused in this game.I pay attention to detail and have to ask, did you see where I say why I do what I do? As in, that one post wherein I do admit my thing on Caz, and why I do such?
It doesn't really matter why people make their votes most of the time as most town player's votes are for people that don't turn out to be scum. I don't care if you don't like the way I scum hunt: as the record shows it's a lot more reliable than regular methods.Wat.
Right, so you're saying that the scumteam would know about your abilities when making plans on Day 3. What are you trying to tell us, Tiruin?...That's a really nice FoS! is what I'm saying :v
Obviously it makes sense for scum to distance themselves from fellow-scum that they know are going to be lynched.*ahem* T'ain't obvious t' me, sir. Hence why'm askin'.
Read the word 'but' as 'and'. A fall guy is someone that is innocent but takes the blame. The scapegoat. The patsy. That's me. I'm saying I'm the fall guy. Their plan was always to have Max lynched and me look scummy while they did it, to set me up for a mislynch....But..but-...what?
The analysis ranks the players in order of scumminess. It's better at predicting who's most likely to be town. My vote is on Imp at the moment because I don't think it's impossible for the analysis to be wrong here, but it heavily suggests that you're the remaining scum. I've gone back and looked at the reasons why you had so few targets, and the reason seems to be you were quite effectively hunting scum, and that's part of the reason why I've switched my vote to Imp. My suspicions of you are meta-tell suspicions.Yeah, HOW @bolded part. What is the basis of scumminess that it ranks people by? I can see the likelyness, yeah, but in how you interpret it, it seems like you're missing crucial notes which are PERTINENT to how the analysis works! I agree that the analysis may be near infallible (ie It is a good a tool as a lurkertracker in theory) but in how results are interpreted are what I'm attacking here.
I'd rather she voted during the actual day rather than in the last post of the day! Day 1 she did no voting then tied the vote nearly at the last moment. Day 2 she did no voting before using her vote in a token way. Day 3 she begrudgingly votes for Max despite the fact she apparently called him out on a false vote. It doesn't matter who she voted for, the way she voted was scummy.See: Above. I checked back on the voting (the suspicion was in her context).
She had a bizarre case based on me being a converter when that wasn't even a possibility. It looked very much like she was clutching at reasons to vote me.
I said this. Let's assume Max was the last cultist. He fakeclaimed to get Persus lynched. Assuming that he had been successful, we'd be lynching him today post-haste, and that'd be it for Team Cult. Ergo, there must be one more cultist.Ah. Thanks.
I don't understand what you're asking here.I..noticed the list + scoreboard of people. Disregard that.
Yes- a planned bus for either Imp or Persus with Max is within the realm of possibility. I doubt it, though....Because I targeted Persus on N2? That, and evidence prior to today really orients my sight on Persus==Town. Sure, Max could've done the kill (given him being Knight), but comparing the facts..well. Try to reason why the scumteam has TWO Knights (technical aspect) AND the Hunter-Sword thing back then (proof of knight) + Persus' words and posts (including him believing that Imp is a saving grace vs Max' ability due to Seer having... quite an attractable reputation, as my guess on why he rationalized that)
Why Persus more than Imp?
Specific!I am unsure if what Imp did is a bus, she reads minor Town to me, with intervals coming greater towards the green side given how NQT is posting.
NQT: I think you're framing your actions to make them look good in your own meta-tell.Yeah I knew people would say that. I'm damned either way. As you'll see in my analyses, I had about the same number of suspicions as anyone else in the early-to-mid-game.
You've got two of your own meta-tells here giving you conflicting results.Not really. Tiruin looks most scummy due her low number of suspicions, but those low number of suspicions look particularly justifiable. Imp is very town with her suspicions and she has the highest post count, but the way she used her vote and the cases that she's making have been pretty scummy. Basically, my scumetrics say Tiruin is scum and Imp is town, whereas traditional scumhunting says Imp is scum and Tiruin is town. I'm torn.
What's noteworthy is you decide Imp must be telling the truth, so you go to... Persus? Why not Max? All redirections in the past have been obvious to the redirected party, and no one claims this. Thinking back on this, I really don't see the logical leap.I didn't know redirections were obvious to the redirected party. If I'd have known that then I probably would have voted Max again.
I think you're votejumping and throwing around to see where it will stick. Trying to see who you can drive a mislynch on, NQT?Nope. I'm willing to change my mind and not give a damn how that makes me look. Changing your mind is not a scumtell. You really think my interactions with Max and Caz are indicative of scumbuddies? Toony and Jim certainly didn't think so.
...Again, praising an activity as townlike while doing it yourself to reinforce the point. You've put a lot of work into reinforcing a barrier around yourself. Your breadcrumbing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4742274#msg4742274) is another example of you building a giant town facade around yourself. You've done well disguising it, but I can see through it now.Or... I'm not building a town façade around me because I actually am town.
Do you think there's any worth looking at why Toony voted Jim wooly voting or you voted Cmega for acting defensive? Like I said, we should definitely question people over weak votes, but it's worth bearing in mind that often (especially in the early game) scum can fabricate perfectly reasonable sounding reasons to vote for people.It doesn't really matter why people make their votes most of the time as most town player's votes are for people that don't turn out to be scum.wat
You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Admittedly, I could have been clearer.It looked very much like she was clutching at reasons to vote me.But that doesn't matter, right?
PPE Tiruin: get to you in a moment.Aw fish.
Not really. Tiruin looks most scummy due her low number of suspicions, but those low number of suspicions look particularly justifiable. Imp is very town with her suspicions and she has the highest post count, but the way she used her vote and the cases that she's making have been pretty scummy. Basically, my scumetrics say Tiruin is scum and Imp is town, whereas traditional scumhunting says Imp is scum and Tiruin is town. I'm torn.I'd really love to derail, rerail, and weld shut the tangent on..the suspicion by observation instead of a suspicion by analysis point :S I really don't see this going anywhere conclusive (other than..give the notion that you're sticking to your analysis. I get that.)
Do you think there's any worth looking at why Toony voted Jim wooly voting or you voted Cmega for acting defensive? Like I said, we should definitely question people over weak votes, but it's worth bearing in mind that often (especially in the early game) scum can fabricate perfectly reasonable sounding reasons to vote for people.Err, illogical voting is a towntell then?
"Track record"? And "Kill another Town"?'Track record' is an idiom (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+track+record)basically meaning 'collective accomplishments and failings'. I was saying that Toaster has consistently targeted town players to kill in the night and so I have little faith that he'd successfully pick scum on the last night.
Clarify.
Day 1, Imp doesn't place a vote until right at the very end. I pressed her on this:
Imp— I agree that Toony's play has been subpar but a lot of what you point out could be indicative of a selfish personality rather than role. Right now though he's my second choice for scum. He at least has made an excuse that he's been too busy to participate. Nerjin on the other hand has been quite active and intolerably passive. Speaking of which...
But here..I really see you as trying to undermine me. I focused on Caz, HOWEVER I fail to see you note my OTHER suspicions. Remember ToonyMan? Or perhaps you don't, because you killed him and feel guilty about it. Remember Cmega? Remember how I said I discarded my suspicion on him due to his utter lack of responses (+ newbie card-benefit of doubt) [aaand he requested replacement. Something which confirmed my suspicion that his play was more of a...RL thing given how I couldn't glean much from his posts]
Toaster
Imp is very town with her suspicions and she has the highest post count, but the way she used her vote and the cases that she's making have been pretty scummy.
What's noteworthy is you decide Imp must be telling the truth, so you go to... Persus? Why not Max? All redirections in the past have been obvious to the redirected party, and no one claims this. Thinking back on this, I really don't see the logical leap.I didn't know redirections were obvious to the redirected party. If I'd have known that then I probably would have voted Max again.
I think you're votejumping and throwing around to see where it will stick. Trying to see who you can drive a mislynch on, NQT?Nope. I'm willing to change my mind and not give a damn how that makes me look. Changing your mind is not a scumtell. You really think my interactions with Max and Caz are indicative of scumbuddies? Toony and Jim certainly didn't think so.
Toaster...You do know that scum could also not kill, and then things will get tangled if that happens, right.
I know you said you wouldn't but don't night kill. This is very important.
[...]
If Toaster is nightkilled then Tiruin is scum. As the illusionist she should have been able to redirect scum at you.
@Rant: Dude! D:Spoiler: Cathartic Rant (click to show/hide)
I'm going to put my faith in my analytics as it has yet to fail me, despite me repeatedly failing it, and put my vote back on Tiruin. I don't expect any of you to follow me in this vote, I just want it known on record that I didn't turn my back on my own reasoning for a third time in a row.While I agree with your analytics, I will denounce how you interpreted them and marked me out (as compared to prior when in all other analytics I am absent). Compare 4 to 3.
Tiruin: Your role hasn't really affected the game, and so I can't tell if you're fake-claiming except by your town appearance. Imp's claim yesterday affected the game, and Toaster's clearly affected the game, so I have evidence to cause me to believe their claims. Toaster more than Imp.You can tell if I'm fake claiming by every method possible except staring at my claim and agreeing with it. Check back.
There's been like 5000 WOTs since last night, so if anyone had other questions for me could you repost them?
I wouldn't mind a shorten, unless someone's going to change their vote.
Persus
Scum are probably going to kill Toaster in the night. It'll be you, Imp and Tiruin at LYLO. Now read this carefully because this is going to win us the game if you all play your roles right:
If Toaster is nightkilled then Tiruin is scum. As the illusionist she should have been able to redirect scum at you.
If Tiruin is nightkilled, then obviously just lynch Imp.
If Imp is nightkilled and Toaster promises he didn't do it, then lynch Tiruin.
If there is no nightkill (whether or not you received an attack in the night) then hear what Imp has claimed and lynch Tiruin. If Tiruin wasn't scum, then let Toaster nightkill Imp. It's important that you do it this way, as a scum-Tiruin could redirect Toaster.
QuoteYes- a planned bus for either Imp or Persus with Max is within the realm of possibility. I doubt it, though....Because I targeted Persus on N2? That, and evidence prior to today really orients my sight on Persus==Town. Sure, Max could've done the kill (given him being Knight), but comparing the facts..well. Try to reason why the scumteam has TWO Knights (technical aspect) AND the Hunter-Sword thing back then (proof of knight) + Persus' words and posts (including him believing that Imp is a saving grace vs Max' ability due to Seer having... quite an attractable reputation, as my guess on why he rationalized that)
Why Persus more than Imp?
Tiruin: My single choice for scum wasn't due to roles. It was due to NQT's behavior yesterday. I also looked at how people voted and how they've seemed to me overall....Dude, I just redirected you to Toony. The fact that he didn't get snuffed D3 means that I did something really important. Do you detect me flaking any suspicion (in malice) towards you back then?
At this point someone is scum, and lying about their role is an easy way to be under the radar. One scum has to kill people and not spend their actions. You claimed illusionist and and claimed to redirect a dead person and someone who according to pretty much everyone now, is a townie with no actions, doing nothing except reinforcing your belief that I'm town. I think its a long shot, but it could be that you know I'm town because you're cult and you were knocking out and sacrificing people. Imp could also have lied about her role, but the way and use of her roleclaim makes me think she's town. NQT I'm not sure if he's the priest as he claimed, and I don't think that makes a difference on my opinion of whether or not he's scum.
Oh, right. Kill Tiruin is my action.However, I redirect NQT to Persus.
Everyone: Thoughts today? What is your output on a No Lynch?Oh, gods not no-lynch. I highly suspect NQT of being Scum and I really don't suspect anyone else of being Scum. I have to wonder and worry about a possible 4th Scum and/or a possible hostile 3rd party, but that's just because I want to win so very very badly, and my interpretation of my Wincon -requires- me to attempt such mental gymnastics because the exact current circumstances are what they are.
Tiruin wants a no lynch- what does that tell you?
What is your output on a No Lynch? I'm ambivalent (leaning on lynching)
You're all so blinkered that you're hardly even questioning one another.
Imp, after this game we will talk about what is and is not a scumtell because you have a lot to learn. People disagreeing with you or finding your actions suspicious, even when you're town, is not a scumtell. (If it was, you'd all be scum!)
I learnt that talking to NQT is a rich and satisfying experience.
Tiruin, you going to tell everyone about the flavour you received when redirecting people? Persus and Imp and me all gave reasonable descriptions of what happened to us at night.
And I think, wait, Tiruin didn't say she wants a no lynch...I someone brings something up and says they're ambivalent about it, then they want other people to think of the idea and maybe push for it. By proffering a mild disinclination for the idea, it appears more attractive for other people to take up. Or maybe she just wanted to discuss something she was unsure about? Who knows?
Then I go reread what she said:
So I don't know what to think. I feel kinda mocked by your words, I feel kinda tricked, maybe manipulated. I feel kinda sorry for you too. But outside of this game, I've felt huge respect for you, admiration for your play, and enjoyment of reading your posts.I don't recall mocking you. Unless you're scum and you took my words directed at scum to heart? I've certainly not intended to trick or manipulate anyone. I've been very open about my methods and my reasons for acting.
Maybe once we can talk person to person, outside of a Mafia game, maybe then you can straighten me out. You clearly make it sound like I, specifically me among all the other newbies around, really need straightening out.Nah, I think the others are all terrible at this game too ;)
What if scum doesn't kill and instead does their job?If you're all alive tomorrow then kill Tiruin and then if she doesn't flip scum have Toaster NK Imp. Simple.
PersusWhat if scum doesn't kill and instead does their job?If you're all alive tomorrow then kill Tiruin and then if she doesn't flip scum have Toaster NK Imp. Simple.
Here's how I see this playing out.
Oh yeah! Reminds me. I never chased Tiruin or Toaster for their flavor. Thing was, I couldn't think of anything that might be in their flavor or not that might give me any clues at this point as to if my Wincon needs them dead or not (earlier in play that would -not- be the case) - and hopefully we're really close to the end of the game so we're about to see everyone's actual PMs. So for anyone wondering, that's why I didn't chase that - I do chase flavor as a rule.
Oh yeah! Reminds me. I never chased Tiruin or Toaster for their flavor....My flavor is actually lacking. I tell you the truth here.
This plan doesn't test me - and I don't see any way it could - as I have no way to 'control outcomes'But it does. That scenario leaves out if you are scum. If you are scum, you can stabbity stab Toaster and frame someone else, though I'm preferably sure that if I'm following those lines--I can't redirect Toaster on the path to his own house..
It's pretty short- I come from a long line of monster hunters, and was trained by my father as he was trained by his, etc etc. I know how each kind of monster fights and the proper way to take out each one.Y'know, this can pertain to the RL thing here. You were a monster hunter in Supernaturals prior. :P
more than welcome to look at my complete spreadsheet of all the cases in the game so far (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXXlDtQTjavdHJucTV6enZMN1UteDF2RVNyMThpZ1E&usp=sharing)Google.
Imp - Something I note in your plan. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4779247#msg4779247)QuoteThis plan doesn't test me - and I don't see any way it could - as I have no way to 'control outcomes'But it does. That scenario leaves out if you are scum. If you are scum, you can stabbity stab Toaster and frame someone else, though I'm preferably sure that if I'm following those lines--I can't redirect Toaster on the path to his own house..
more than welcome to look at my complete spreadsheet of all the cases in the game so far (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXXlDtQTjavdHJucTV6enZMN1UteDF2RVNyMThpZ1E&usp=sharing)Google.
*seethes*
Why do you make me pull up my years-old account. :I
Now I'm wavering on wondering to wish to see whats in it or register a new one!
*shakes fist and pouts*
So far we have never seen scum raise a dead player as town, so it seems most likely that scum priests only raise scum or third parties... For NQT to not be the priest you would have to believe a scum priest bought back a town player.
So! Meph. Is it time for a rematch yet? I'm ready to sign up for S7, and I can hardly wait.
Nice job Tiruin and Toaster. Looks like NQT was right. I was wondering why Tiruin was being so defensive about me thinking she wasn't an illusionist.
So far, there's two possible 'real Scum tells' to my perception - 'Middle of the line player', and 'I actually don't want to interact with you'.That sounds pretty good, go with that.
Toaster/Tiruin, why'd you lynch Caz?Wonderful question.
4 scum out of 11 players is way too many, particularly if the converted player can bring an extra kill with them.
Supernatural doesn't have a dead chat. All I learned is that Nerjin's attacker was wearing boots (his dream-watching didn't yield anything). The only other dead town player at the time was Cmega but they didn't have anything.Yeah, one thing I learned from this game is that NQT's methods can work.
EDIT:
If you guys vote-swapped after I voted Persus with NQT that would have been hilarious. :( Hilariously broken.
NQT was exactly right about Tiruin.
Eh, if you shift methods enough then sure it will eventually find scum and you can claim it works.Well Imp had the largest post count and was town. All of his vote analysis picks were scum.
He method failed him in regards to Nenjin, Jim and Imp who were actually townies.
I think this and S3 are the two most unbalanced Supernaturals ever. Town's record is 1 for 3 now right?
So far, there's two possible 'real Scum tells' to my perception - 'Middle of the line player', and 'I actually don't want to interact with you'.That sounds pretty good, go with that.
Still, you guys had a warlock! Hoo boy! That sure gave us a run for our money!
*Tiruin hugs Imp and NQT..
and Max and Caz...
and then everyone else.
Hi?
So explain what you believe what 'gave you a run for your money' by us having a Warlock?It was a joke. :P
*Tiruin hugs Imp and NQT..*Hugs back
and Max and Caz...
and then everyone else.
Hi?
NQT was exactly right about Tiruin.It was in the procedure where it was wrong! D:[/Imaybedefendingmyego?]
...Yeah but..but I think I ranted too much in scumchat about the convert and felt how the Town was being misled (on another hand, my skeptical side was going 'HAH, that's what you get for basing everything on past games :P' and being all evil and stuff) and...and..*Tiruin hugs Imp and NQT..
and Max and Caz...
and then everyone else.
Hi?
Hi awesome! You played great. You ok? *hugs back*
Toaster/Tiruin, why'd you lynch Caz?*ahem*
Toaster and Tiruin for their very longstanding cases against Caz get many town points in my eyes. There's no good reason why they'd have pursued those cases for so long (yeah, yeah, to seem town, but really that kind of early-form bussing is usually counterproductive). Persus hopped on and off the Caz-wagon, but I'm not sure I'd draw any strong conclusions either way from that.While I'd LOOOOVE to say..well, keep silent and let this slide and be happy at myself, I'd point something out that I'd do the same as scum if scum, and town if town--meaning: If someone does such an act as doing a really technical error at me, then I'd hunt 'em out regardless.
It seems you're basing your townie points on me because my case is long, yes? Why so. That's quite an easy leap there. What're you following here. Vote pattern or...something else.
...Would it pain you that I thought there was a deadchat sincerely? :SSo explain what you believe what 'gave you a run for your money' by us having a Warlock?It was a joke. :P
The Warlock happened to be the least threatening thing that entire game. As scum we worry a lot about knights, werebears, wizards and guards, so it strikes my funny bone seeing these warlocks and dreamwalkers.
I believe nobody's reading what I said in scumchat? >.>I sure hope so, they would know we are actually scum.
...Would it pain you that I thought there was a deadchat sincerely? :S:P Not as painful as getting called out on a fake claim. Now that is like being hit with a hammer.
Tiruin:Also a common thing I do is ask unrelated questions (y'know, general-ish questions about the person that I subtly am too shy to ask out of game because..erm, I dunno..) then append the Mafia question afterwards in RVS.I wonder where you got your name..seeing the date of creation. It's rather fascinating speculating on it...I'm always thinking mischievous little cute imp
Such pleasant topics perhaps should wait for calmer times, or at least less time-pressed and purpose-driven forum topics. Otherwise I'm glad to chat about it. I have curiousity about your curiousity, but I don't see how to connect that to scumhunting, alas.
I don't think I want to play mafia ever again.DX
I wonder where you got your name..seeing the date of creation. It's rather fascinating speculating on it...I'm always thinking mischievous little cute imp...May I know Imp? :))
I don't think I want to play mafia ever again.notquitethere, I am desperately sorry for my part in that. I hope your feelings about that change.
Tiruin why did you just claim sexton?
Whhhhyyyyyy? What are you doing? I don't even...
EDIT:
Tiruin why did you just claim cultist?!?!?
Ok look I have to ping on that. No choice.
Also, NQT's analysis post in reply #406 lists the entire original scum team in the lower-vote count category. For some reason he hits on Imp instead of Tiruin, though- but if Imp turns up third party, NQT deserves a medal.
...NQT, you don't know how much I'd like to hug you and tell you you're right. You're right for the right reasons, and on the wrong team.
Oh h-
I just noticed Imp did the scumteam..and can't make it out!
Nononononooo I mean that's what I was..well...I...QuoteOh h-
I just noticed Imp did the scumteam..and can't make it out!
Tiruin. Shame on you.
Explain to me, given the results of Survivor, from cup bread cloth... and Converter, from leaf wind rain
wtf. Explain how you read -Scum- from that. Explain to me, oh goddess, how -you- would have gotten those results and made it out to mean Scum.
Factional kill or one-shot conversion. We totally couldn't do both in the same night, if it is any consolation, and it isn't really.
Once during the game you may choose to attempt to convert the target rather than sacrifice them.
Actually there is one other thing that this game has shown. At this point monster hunters are pretty much confirmed town, because we all know the flavor and they aren't going to be scum, so another type of role that has similar flavor text for their kills would at least make the town have to work for it.
Perhaps a third party Anti-Mage, whos wincon is to kill a player with a specific role (Such as killing the town mystic to win) and uses the same weaponry as Hunters?
QuoteOnce during the game you may choose to attempt to convert the target rather than sacrifice them.
A kill and convert in a single night would have been ungodly...
I really think it was listed as a (Mafiakill) action, on my convert.QuoteOnce during the game you may choose to attempt to convert the target rather than sacrifice them.
A kill and convert in a single night would have been ungodly...
Alright, back to panic case. Imp is certainly our wallflower (if I get the metaphor right, it means weak link), and is our downfall is she inspects me. Otherwise, I can easily claim Wizard/Illusionist/Thief in order of preferability in order to explain our (the) lack of kill N1.
spoiler=Role PMs]
-----------------------
------- Cult ----------
Culture shifts over time. Views change, customs shift. Even religion becomes twisted from its original form. So it was with the religion of this land. A younger god rose to prominence, and the elder fell into disgrace. His name besmirched, his rites no longer practised. For far too long has this being tolerated such disrespect. But no longer. The three of you can feel his power, his anger. It is up to you to set things right.
And to do that, you must shed blood. Each night you must attempt to capture and sacrifice one of the townsfolk that stand against you. When the power of this new order is shattered, then shall the old arise again. And you shall reap the benefits of being his true followers.
Tiruin - You are a Charismatic Cultist, and the one who drew the others into your confidence. You who dusted off the ancient tomes, and spoke the forgotten truths of your faith. Once during the game you may choose to attempt to convert the target rather than sacrifice them. Note that you must be the one to approach them for this to work. With the ancient power behind you, there are few who could possibly resist such an offer.
Caz - You are a Priest whose eyes have been opened to the perversion of your faith over the years. It is just and right that this ancient being be brought once again to the forefront of the pantheon. By virtue of these ancient powers, you may attempt to resurrect a dead player once during this game. There is no guarantee that it will work, but if it does you could gain a new ally. One properly loyal to your cause.
Max White - You are a Knight. Long fed up with the weakness you see in society, you've longed for a way to return your people to their former strength. You see this return of the old god as the perfect way to regain your old strength, and with it perhaps new glory. You are strong and well-trained in combat. You cannot be night-killed by any normal foe.
In addition, the three of you have a secret form of communication (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/rxVCpEZv9Rzw) that allows you to speak in safety away from the prying eyes and ears of others.
Looking at what you suggested, Max, that's 'just another anti-Town role'. While the game may genuinely have a 'need' for monster hunter kills to be confusable (huh? Why do we need that?) I'm feeling a bit pressed right now at the idea of suggestions that simultaneously make it harder for Town to win (investigators make it harder for Scum... so a third party role who's only goal is to kill Town investigator is.... a good suggestion?)While in this game the town was out gunned, that isn't true of all games, especially when in the future Monster Hunters will be assured town. A Hunter flavored kill shows up, you claim, and bam you are confirmed town. Nobody else really gets that sort of privilege, inspects can be fake claimed and priests can be either role and so on. There is normally that little bit of doubt, just to keep it sporting. You can't fake claim a kill, it shows up in the morning.
I don't think I want to play mafia ever again.If it's any compliment you played a pretty good town game. If there wasn't that suspicion about your position in Night 1 I had you pegged as town.
Is that why you're asking about the date I joined, you were surprised that name was free for me to use at that time too?I...really loved that story that you don't even know.
Hrm. Feels like the right time to share a song - this is what Mafia games are to me. I rather thought... before and slightly after this game ended, that I was wrong, and only -some- Mafia games felt like this. But nope, this is Mafia to me.I..I hope NQT is ok though. I sent him a PM and he hasn't replied and I'm getting to conclusions. Really worry-d conclusions. :S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsKQOm_iJug
If it's any compliment you played a pretty good town game. If there wasn't that suspicion about your position in Night 1 I had you pegged as town.We also had the roles to bus.
I can remember at one point claiming Toaster and Tiruin were definitely scum, but I never ended up staying with that...I thought at least one of them was bussing, who would have thought it was both.
Mafia had enough members and kills to bus and be totally fine.
>.>
<.<
Well you could've noticed that one thing on Imp..but the thing that /did/ irk me was that you..played something else away :s
And didn't notice that thing on Imp..much.
Town me would see that as a throwaway..
Sorry!! DX
I really think it was listed as a (Mafiakill) action, on my convert.QuoteOnce during the game you may choose to attempt to convert the target rather than sacrifice them.
A kill and convert in a single night would have been ungodly...
Wait, I'll edit it in, checking back.
Here it is, + my PMs.Spoiler: In Order (click to show/hide)
What's the one thing on Imp?I think that was in relation to the previous posts there and that we totally didn't expect your claim to completely unhinge Max.
Why were you guys so interested in that other Witch?Well..we knew every role except TOony or Jim so...
Why were you guys so interested in that other Witch?Because once again, somebody with the powers of a vanilla townie is still safer to attack than an unknown who could be a werebear or some other nasty. We have some good roles, and we expected town to have equally good roles, so the prospect of a werebear was looming over our heads every night, and a witch ain't that. In a game with unknown roles, vanilla townies become targets.
Toaster/Tiruin, why'd you lynch Caz?
I don't think I want to play mafia ever again.
I..I hope NQT is ok though. I sent him a PM and he hasn't replied and I'm getting to conclusions. Really worry-d conclusions. :S
Why were you guys so interested in that other Witch?
Why were you guys so interested in that other Witch?Because once again, somebody with the powers of a vanilla townie is still safer to attack than an unknown who could be a werebear or some other nasty. We have some good roles, and we expected town to have equally good roles, so the prospect of a werebear was looming over our heads every night, and a witch ain't that. In a game with unknown roles, vanilla townies become targets.
Also, scum killing replacement-needing players is a meta tell that you have a nice scumteam that wants a fun game.Has there ever not been a nice scum team?
Because they could claim, not get counterclaimed, and be almost certainly town. It would have been a safe claim for Tiruin.
...Imp, you'll be really shocked NQT is town. Please don't think lesser of him for that. :S
Huh, I recall thinking about the wallflower (..or context-clues?) that it weakens the integrity of the wall and if anything happens to it, then the whole thing is compromised.
...The more you know :D
I think that's me..
Also, scum killing replacement-needing players is a meta tell that you have a nice scumteam that wants a fun game.Has there ever not been a nice scum team?
When you aren't feeling all frustrated at having to build a case and make it actually work out, and can instead just view the game from above, it is a lot more relaxing.
Another role that might be useful for town, though, might be a Squire, who can choose to protect somebody that night with their own life. So less powerful than a wizard, but still useful if Meph wants to give the town a little more defensive measures without anything too powerful.
Tiruin:D:Quote...Imp, you'll be really shocked NQT is town. Please don't think lesser of him for that. :S
I. Don't anymore. Now I think lesser of myself.
Expect a fuller breakdown of my reflections on this game in about 12 hours time. It's nice to see that my scum hunting technique works, this was just more of a closed set up than I'd been led to believe. A game where the town's possible roles are all known but the scum's are secret is like trying to play a boardgame with someone who doesn't allow you to look at all the rules and thinks they're clever when they win.
NQT: What was that bit about the last laugh? :P I'm sorry buddy, I did try to get you lynched day 1 just so that we could bring you back to life as scum and roll to victory, but best laid plans and all. Although seriously, don't give out early role information! Speaking as scum, we do use that sort of information, your early claim was very useful to us.Yeah yeah. If I'd have know that a three-person scum team with a choice of convert or kill was a possibility I'd have lynched the lot of you.
Oh. And NQT. A rather humbled Imp's interested in listening to that talk whenever you'd like to start it.Basically: whatever you thought was a scum tell for me, is definitely not a scum tell. As you can see from my spreadsheet, scum tend to have the fewest genuine targets for suspicion. If a player seems Hamlet-like in indecision and appears to frequently reassess their views, then they're probably not scum. If a player is willing to put significant effort into assessing people's actions throughout the the game, then they're probably not scum.
Nice job Tiruin and Toaster. Looks like NQT was right. I was wondering why Tiruin was being so defensive about me thinking she wasn't an illusionist.Rule #27 of B12 Mafia: Tiruin is never town.
4 scum out of 11 players is way too many, particularly if the converted player can bring an extra kill with them.It was a game that I was playing in, thus it was impossible that I'd actually be able to win.
Exactly this: every time I tried to reason through how people were acting I voted town, but both my analytical tools infallible showed who was scum. I think I might have cracked this game.Eh, if you shift methods enough then sure it will eventually find scum and you can claim it works.Well Imp had the largest post count and was town. All of his vote analysis picks were scum.
He method failed him in regards to Nenjin, Jim and Imp who were actually townies.
Cheers. I think I will probably play again, I snap back quickly out of despondency.I don't think I want to play mafia ever again.And I was complimenting your play in scum chat!
NQT is a logical player that brings a very novel (and reasonably effective) approach to scumhunting, and he makes games interesting simply for doing things differently than everyone else. He just has a bit of trouble looking outside his methodology- and it all breaks down in situations like this one. Vote records are pretty bad for tracking down a conversion.Thanks for the compliment! I think if I'd have known a one-shot conversion was possible, I might have been able to see it in change of voting patterns. Maybe. I guess I prefer games where I have full knowledge of the possible mechanics while I'm actually playing.
...NQT, you don't know how much I'd like to hug you and tell you you're right. You're right for the right reasons, and on the wrong team.Aw, well that's nice. Makes me want to play another game and damn well win for once.
MaxNot the game, but a crucial mindset which I see many scum-players subconsciously keep in mind. Do note that the team-value seems more set in; the short term value, than the long-term one.Exactly this: every time I tried to reason through how people were acting I voted town, but both my analytical tools infallible showed who was scum. I think I might have cracked this game.Eh, if you shift methods enough then sure it will eventually find scum and you can claim it works.Well Imp had the largest post count and was town. All of his vote analysis picks were scum.
He method failed him in regards to Nenjin, Jim and Imp who were actually townies.
Persus:INice job Tiruin and Toaster. Looks like NQT was right. I was wondering why Tiruin was being so defensive about me thinking she wasn't an illusionist.Rule #27 of B12 Mafia: Tiruin is never town.
You're doing it again.That isn't even long! D:
I vote you for voting Caz weirdly. That's all I needed as a reason for my vote...Your reason back then was akin to Caz' reason. Shifting votes. You redacted that and did not state the weird part. :S
What I get instead is you shoving down why why why would I do that or where where where was my reasoning to do so.It didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, it got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw it as going along Caz' reason at the time.
It didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, it got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw it as going along Caz' reason at the time.I think it's paragraphs like this that are the problem. I can't really work out what 'it' is meant to be here. Toony's case? Should I parse what you're saying like this:
Your case didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, your case got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw your case as going along Caz' reason at the time.Okay, then what does "attached to Toaster's post" mean? And how was his case "going along Caz' reasoning"? Do you mean he was following Caz and Toaster's cases in his case against you? And if so what was wrong with that? It's all very unclear.
MaxNQT: What was that bit about the last laugh? :P I'm sorry buddy, I did try to get you lynched day 1 just so that we could bring you back to life as scum and roll to victory, but best laid plans and all. Although seriously, don't give out early role information! Speaking as scum, we do use that sort of information, your early claim was very useful to us.Yeah yeah. If I'd have know that a three-person scum team with a choice of convert or kill was a possibility I'd have lynched the lot of you.Quote from: toaster in scum chatNQT is a logical player that brings a very novel (and reasonably effective) approach to scumhunting, and he makes games interesting simply for doing things differently than everyone else. He just has a bit of trouble looking outside his methodology- and it all breaks down in situations like this one. Vote records are pretty bad for tracking down a conversion.Thanks for the compliment! I think if I'd have known a one-shot conversion was possible, I might have been able to see it in change of voting patterns. Maybe. I guess I prefer games where I have full knowledge of the possible mechanics while I'm actually playing.
Supernatural may simply not be the best game type for you.Yeah maybe, it was just that you'd said that there was nothing new in this one (though, sure, you took that back later on) so we were primed not to expect anything that game-changing.
You're doing it again.That isn't even long! D:QuoteI vote you for voting Caz weirdly. That's all I needed as a reason for my vote...Your reason back then was akin to Caz' reason. Shifting votes. You redacted that and did not state the weird part. :SQuoteWhat I get instead is you shoving down why why why would I do that or where where where was my reasoning to do so.It didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, it got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw it as going along Caz' reason at the time.
MaxNQT: What was that bit about the last laugh? :P I'm sorry buddy, I did try to get you lynched day 1 just so that we could bring you back to life as scum and roll to victory, but best laid plans and all. Although seriously, don't give out early role information! Speaking as scum, we do use that sort of information, your early claim was very useful to us.Yeah yeah. If I'd have know that a three-person scum team with a choice of convert or kill was a possibility I'd have lynched the lot of you.Quote from: toaster in scum chatNQT is a logical player that brings a very novel (and reasonably effective) approach to scumhunting, and he makes games interesting simply for doing things differently than everyone else. He just has a bit of trouble looking outside his methodology- and it all breaks down in situations like this one. Vote records are pretty bad for tracking down a conversion.Thanks for the compliment! I think if I'd have known a one-shot conversion was possible, I might have been able to see it in change of voting patterns. Maybe. I guess I prefer games where I have full knowledge of the possible mechanics while I'm actually playing.
To a large extent, that sort of this is exactly what makes Supernatural different from Paranormal. Paranormal got to the point where there was lots of meta play based on knowledge of what was possible. There isn't anything wrong with that, of course, but I wanted my next game type to avoid that.
Supernatural is specifically designed to avoid that sort of thing. Just about anything is possible and while most things stay fairly consistent from game to game there are supposed to be constant small shifts that shake things up. I didn't specifically try to do that this time, but it happened anyway.
Supernatural may simply not be the best game type for you.
Supernatural may simply not be the best game type for you.Yeah maybe, it was just that you'd said that there was nothing new in this one (though, sure, you took that back later on) so we were primed not to expect anything that game-changing.
It's really about expectations. I don't mind completely closed games (like BYOR) where everyone has powers and you can formulate as best a plan that you can but you know full well that some unknown factor might well interfere with what you want to do. I didn't think this was going to be like that.
My typical experience with a lot of these mafia games is: slog away trying your best, get near the end and think you're on track for victory, something comes completely out of left-field and makes you lose the game. Is this the kind of game experience we want to people to have?
Sure, but this was effectively started as a semi-open set up when really it was semi-closed. If I'd have known from the beginning 'scum might have some powers we haven't seen before' then I would have played differently, especially at LYLO.
As part of keeping this beginner friendly, I won't be changing any of the roles or rules from last time. So while you still won't know quite what to expect at the start, if you've read all the previous games you should be in decent shape.
I wouldn't go as far as to say 'disturbing'. Also, people always talk differently in different settings. In a scumchat you're typically not trying to defend yourself or develop complex counterarguments.
Having recognized a 'Non-Town-Tell' in myself (and I felt darn Scummy in BYOR12, for all I wasn't Scum) - Should I just relax and know that what's a probable Scum tell in me isn't likely to be a Scum tell in anyone else, and hey, people probably won't even notice when I do it?Look, I was probably talking differently to Max because he was the only one (in the beginning at least) who was attacking me, so I took on a more cautious and defensive tone. (Also, one of the posts to him was deliberately wordy just so I could fit my breadcrumbing in.) So, addressing people in different ways definitely can be significant, but it's not necessarily significant of what you think it is.
MaxYea, yea. You can claim what ever you like to justify a kind of mafia high ground and that you are beyond being given advice, but we were the benefactors of a misplay that had nothing to do with the number of scum or their powers.NQT: What was that bit about the last laugh? :P I'm sorry buddy, I did try to get you lynched day 1 just so that we could bring you back to life as scum and roll to victory, but best laid plans and all. Although seriously, don't give out early role information! Speaking as scum, we do use that sort of information, your early claim was very useful to us.Yeah yeah. If I'd have know that a three-person scum team with a choice of convert or kill was a possibility I'd have lynched the lot of you.
Yea, yea. You can claim what ever you like to justify a kind of mafia high ground and that you are beyond being given advice, but we were the benefactors of a misplay that had nothing to do with the number of scum or their powers.Hah, perhaps my tone wasn't clear. I'm not that sore about it. I think you all played well and I'm always open to advice. I appreciate your faith in my powers that you'd go out of your way to get me on side (we now know if you'd resurrected me I'd have been a 3rd party).
Still, I did what I could to go out of my way and get you lynched with the simple hope that you would come back to life as scum and help you in your first legitimate win, no need to be sore and go on about you would have lynched us all and been a super hero and everybody would love you and you would finally get the money to pay for little Lucy's operation.
As part of keeping this beginner friendly, I won't be changing any of the roles or rules from last time. So while you still won't know quite what to expect at the start, if you've read all the previous games you should be in decent shape.
That to me is a double-finger point to look extra close at the 'last time', which is S5. S5 is the sole game that's had a surviving and escaping Scum team member.
Given what we now know about how the game played out, if instead the Scum team did include Webadict-returned in some fashion, if there was an unnamed 12th player, would that have been 'more bastard or less bastard' than what we actually faced in play?
Does it seem reasonable for us as players to 'ever' rule anything out in a Supernatural game, regardless of if we have never seen it before, or if we've seen something similar or not?
Noted. I guess I wanted to make myself appear confirmed town but with a power that made me not worth killing me over.
As part of keeping this beginner friendly, I won't be changing any of the roles or rules from last time. So while you still won't know quite what to expect at the start, if you've read all the previous games you should be in decent shape.
That to me is a double-finger point to look extra close at the 'last time', which is S5. S5 is the sole game that's had a surviving and escaping Scum team member.
Given what we now know about how the game played out, if instead the Scum team did include Webadict-returned in some fashion, if there was an unnamed 12th player, would that have been 'more bastard or less bastard' than what we actually faced in play?
Does it seem reasonable for us as players to 'ever' rule anything out in a Supernatural game, regardless of if we have never seen it before, or if we've seen something similar or not?
Well, last game was meant more in the sense that if I'd changed any rules between games that S5 would have the rule set we were using.
Adding a hidden player is pretty much full bastard game material. Supernatural messes with Roles and Role Powers, but all the core Mafia rules are always in place.
Not a bad thought, truly, but a bit far afield for a game that isn't listed as a Bastard/Semi-bastard up from.
My 2 cents on this - Tiruin you seem to tend, these days at least, to speak very obliquely in game threads, however you are tending to speak far more directly in the Scum chat.I don't even get how the differences lie. I do the same thing in scumchat, and the same thing in game. If anyone tries to interpret my 'WoTs' as an evasive maneuver, then THEY SHOULD DARN WELL SAY SO other than hate me for it like I'm being a manipulative jerk!
It's disconcerting to note the great differences, it makes it look like you -do- have control over how directly you speak, and that you are purposefully choosing to not speak clearly when you don't, and choosing to actually speak clearly when you do.
That's disturbing, especially after the game's over - but there's nothing 'actually' wrong with it (it's not rape/murder/theft or actually breaking any rules or anything). But it is disturbing.
I wouldn't go as far as to say 'disturbing'. Also, people always talk differently in different settings. In a scumchat you're typically not trying to defend yourself or develop complex counterarguments.And so what I do is wholly disturbing to everyone! Woohoo!
Let me link it. Whatever.It didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, it got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw it as going along Caz' reason at the time.I think it's paragraphs like this that are the problem. I can't really work out what 'it' is meant to be here. Toony's case? Should I parse what you're saying like this:Quote from: Tiruin TranslatedYour case didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, your case got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw your case as going along Caz' reason at the time.Okay, then what does "attached to Toaster's post" mean? And how was his case "going along Caz' reasoning"? Do you mean he was following Caz and Toaster's cases in his case against you? And if so what was wrong with that? It's all very unclear.
If I'm caught voting for Caz weirdly (which nobody even tries to explain or elaborate on how, even on a re-search back in-thread), then where the heck is it?! I take the 'voting for Caz weirdly meaning it pertains to my vote and how it relates. Nobody makes note of it, which means that it may be clear to everyone else but me. I don't see it at all given Toony's posts against me. Think's lurker-vote tracker dictates the reason on Toony's vote. Which I don't even see having the reason stated above. (http://Think's lurker-vote tracker dictates the reason on Toony's vote. Which I don't even see having the reason stated above.) Perhaps someone gets it given by what NQT is saying but then it still plays out that I'm unclear. Perhaps the differences lie that my memory is directly tied to it given that I'm remembering how Toony hit me then, and how I approached it. I (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4740563#msg4740563) was voted twice (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4740563#msg4740563) with nothing along those lines of 'you're suspicious because of your vote on Caz.'You're doing it again.That isn't even long! D:QuoteI vote you for voting Caz weirdly. That's all I needed as a reason for my vote...Your reason back then was akin to Caz' reason. Shifting votes. You redacted that and did not state the weird part. :SQuoteWhat I get instead is you shoving down why why why would I do that or where where where was my reasoning to do so.It didn't make sense how you did it if you had read back. Instead, it got attached to Toaster's..post. Somehow. I saw it as going along Caz' reason at the time.
I wonder if I should just [Wherein I mean English. Because I made Toony Hate me (or my playstyle. Whatever. It's the same thing on how I communicate.) Whoop-de-frickin'-doo.replace out] quit the player slot or not join at all [...] because of how I speak and how it seems to cause tremendous headaches for everyone else.
Noted. I guess I wanted to make myself appear confirmed town but with a power that made me not worth killing me over.I believe the only problem was that there was Caz' role :P
Eh, to be honest I just skipped over reading most of the walls of text in this game from everybody, and there were a lot of them...Facerolling? Mafia equivalent?
When you already know that peoples speculation is wrong, it makes for less compelling reading. So yea, the game was a lot of fun, but I spent pretty much all of it in the mafia equivalent of facerolling.
...Meph: Isn't the theory of 'dual-roles on the same scumteam = no' equal a town tell for anyone else? Like NQT. It would be a glaring error to have 2 priests on a scumteam, so I guessed the best explanation is that there's a fakeclaim.
Um... in case you didn't notice, I was actually defending you. I don't think you're disturbing. (I think you overreact a bit sometimes but you're a teenager and so that's somewhat understandable.)I wouldn't go as far as to say 'disturbing'. Also, people always talk differently in different settings. In a scumchat you're typically not trying to defend yourself or develop complex counterarguments.And so what I do is wholly disturbing to everyone! Woohoo!
...Meph: Isn't the theory of 'dual-roles on the same scumteam = no' equal a town tell for anyone else? Like NQT. It would be a glaring error to have 2 priests on a scumteam, so I guessed the best explanation is that there's a fakeclaim.
Precisely the reason I use a script for stuff like that. It balances stuff out, so if you managed to have, say, two Fortune Tellers on the same Scumteam it'd require a very powerful town to counter it. But it's quite possible. The script only restricts specific roles (like only 1 Vampire Lord total).
Two priests would be...risky for scum to use, since the chances of having two scum priests that would both res someone the way scum wants is very low. Still possible, though, depending on how everything else balances out.
TiruinI did notice ;_; And then I made it worse!Um... in case you didn't notice, I was actually defending you.I wouldn't go as far as to say 'disturbing'. Also, people always talk differently in different settings. In a scumchat you're typically not trying to defend yourself or develop complex counterarguments.And so what I do is wholly disturbing to everyone! Woohoo!
(I think you overreact a bit sometimes but you're a teenager and so that's somewhat understandable.)Buh? People say I'm very mature for my age so...I think the overreacting bit there is due to either past emotional/mental trauma or something bad that it provokes me assuming something which may or may not exist in the first place.
I think Toony's point is that often it's not immediately clear what you're trying to say and so it makes it a tad more effort to argue against you.Y'know, half of this argument would be nonexistent if he said the bolded part in the first place without appending the note of hate on it. Then it would be easier, because we'd be going the diplomatic route. "[quotes] This I don't fully understand. Reword please?" I got none of that. At all.
I'm sure you have difficulties understanding what I have to say sometimes (like with the the idioms and Britishisms I use), so it goes both ways.
Pretty much anything is possible with resurrections. Scum can't come back as Town (for obvious reasons) but other than that I have situations for about everything else.Yep! Like how Meph detailed a scenario if a post-dead scum revives as anything else but scum, the scumchat is taken away from him (and I really think he'll end-up third-party at best)
Eh, to be honest I just skipped over reading most of the walls of text in this game from everybody, and there were a lot of them...I did the same towards the end. I figured the game was going to end if NQT wasn't scum and there wasn't anything I could do in the night.
When you already know that peoples speculation is wrong, it makes for less compelling reading. So yea, the game was a lot of fun, but I spent pretty much all of it in the mafia equivalent of facerolling.
Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.*hugs*
Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.Mostly your inability to not look scummy...
Also I actually managed to convince you to not vote for me on day three, that didn't help. I'm amazed anybody actually voted Persus. Heck I would have lynched me in a second as soon as Imp counter claimed!We were all dumbfounded when Imp intervened :P
And I don't know what to say to the bolded portion...what can I improve on?
Most recent pertinent posts of mine precluding those above:
ToonyMan@Tiruin (FoS for emphasis):Now I had this thing saved for days, and I love how you link back to it WITHOUT CHECKING THE CONTEXT. Let me round that FoS to you, handsome.
What do you think of Caz? Why are you switching your vote so much?
Caz is a LIAR. Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.
Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.Mostly your inability to not look scummy...
Really when you specifically act in a certain way, and then make reviews that place you as the most townie player because of that, such as moving your vote around the most, people are smart enough to realize that you could very easily be scum making up a criteria to suit yourself rather than do anything productive.
Also I actually managed to convince you to not vote for me on day three, that didn't help. I'm amazed anybody actually voted Persus. Heck I would have lynched me in a second as soon as Imp counter claimed!
You're "Talking like a Tarot Deck" - you're speaking so ambiguously that you are almost forcing those interacting with you to try and guess at what you mean - like someone can 'get a reading from the Tarot cards' because that person 'makes a story up' from the vague symbols presented.:'(
ImpOh. And NQT. A rather humbled Imp's interested in listening to that talk whenever you'd like to start it.Basically: whatever you thought was a scum tell for me, is definitely not a scum tell. As you can see from my spreadsheet, scum tend to have the fewest genuine targets for suspicion. If a player seems Hamlet-like in indecision and appears to frequently reassess their views, then they're probably not scum. If a player is willing to put significant effort into assessing people's actions throughout the the game, then they're probably not scum.
Yeah, but we did miss some obvious clues. Like the fact that Tiruin said she got a no action flavor, something that doesn't normally happen, and that she was getting defensive about being an illusionist.
I was talking about the fact that she gave flavor for a non-action night.
I was talking about the fact that she gave flavor for a non-action night.
NQT, I think you may be mad at the balance of the game and/or how the game played out. But you are freaking not innocent and blameless in the fact that Town didn't win. And Town didn't lose just because you had such terrible allies. You weren't exactly perfect yourself.Yeah for sure, I take responsibility too. Anywho, no use self-flagellating over it. I'll just learn the lessons and try and win the next game.
Also I wasn't able to post because I was at school, but NQT's spreadsheet seemed like a very town thing to have.It's a double-sided sword, because now I have to do that sort of thing even when I'm not town.
I can just imagine asking for flavor as a knight...
You sit at home tonight, slowly nursing a jug of ale. You don't like to go out much anymore, not since your wife left you and took your pet rooster, Jules, with her. By the old gods you miss that rooster, it just hasn't been the same since. You sit, watching the fireplace and wonder how did it ever came to this. "Your getting too far into this cult!" she would say. In retrospect if you had just spent a little more time with her and a little less with the other disciples maybe you would still be happy, and not set on killing everybody. Well the past is the past, time to live with the choices you made.
Nobody visits you, they rarely do. They all talk about you behind your back and you know it. You are getting older, and they know it. They even had the nerve to hire a new trainee to act as the town knight. The bastard wouldn't know a broadsword from a barn! Not much you can do about it though. You take another drink from your ale. You wish you had somebody to talk to, maybe that charming one that has assumed the role of cult leader. Sadly she is too busy tonight, talking to some monster hunter. Great, another guy with a sword more qualified than yourself. The priest is also out tonight in the temple of the dead, hoping to bring another member into the fold, and from the dead no less! But you are stuck at home, not helping anybody really. Best get used to it. This cult is really going places you know. You should be happy about your position! Yet somehow you just can't seem to muster the will. Maybe tomorrows lynch will cheer you up...