blaming the militant group for breaking the cease-fire.
Are you thinking there's gonna be enough wars going on to need a general war thread?
Are you thinking there's gonna be enough wars going on to need a general war thread?I mean, we maybe we can use it to discuss past or theoretical wars in peacetime.
Are you thinking there's gonna be enough wars going on to need a general war thread?
Note that there is a non-zero chance of a Venezuelan-Brazilian war starting on SundayWhat's going on there to make you think that?
What's going on there to make you think that?
I've got a bad feeling that most of the hostages are dead already and that's part of the reason they broke the ceasefire.Especially those who were kidnapped not by relatively disciplined HAMAS but by minor factions or even individuals
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/09/1211571220/israel-gaza-damage-map-satellite-imagery
Half of all buildings in the north destroyed, many more in the south.
How anyone can think Israel is carefully taking out terrorists is beyond me...
Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.Turns out that Isreal knew about the attack being planned for a whole year but were too idiotic to actually believe it was possible so they just ignored it.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.htmlQuoteIsraeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.Turns out that Isreal knew about the attack being planned for a whole year but were too idiotic to actually believe it was possible so they just ignored it.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
Honestly, why wouldn't he do it?
Strange then, if the IDF, one of the most capable militaries in the world, is somehow facing such a dire existential threat from some massive, well-equipped and resourceful opponent
And even having taken the threat seriously, unless the IDF was going to launch a pre-emptive strike in Gaza (which I'm sure you'd've loved,) it would've had to be countered as it happened, which was an uncertain date a year later.
The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.They knew Hamas's plan of attack, even if they didn't know the exact date increasing security at those locations would have been trivial, albeit expensive.
Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
As time goes on and more is revealed it seems more and more likely Bibi deliberately allowed the attack to happen to facilitate his other goals. I mean, put yourself in Bibi's position. Bibi just received this report. Bibi was deeply unpopular with his people. Bibi was under investigation for corruption. Bibi knows what kind of a boost wartime leaders usually get. And Bibi has no limits or qualms to what he would do to stay in power. Imagine how easy it would be for this report to just slip off the table, saying it's not feasible. So simple.
Honestly, why wouldn't he do it?
Malice in the context of the quote just means intentional shittyness, so if he let it happen on purpose it would totally count.And even having taken the threat seriously, unless the IDF was going to launch a pre-emptive strike in Gaza (which I'm sure you'd've loved,) it would've had to be countered as it happened, which was an uncertain date a year later.QuoteThe translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.They knew Hamas's plan of attack, even if they didn't know the exact date increasing security at those locations would have been trivial, albeit expensive.
Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
They could have also sent their spies to try to figure out the date so they would have been ready.
Despite the existence of the embargo, Cuba can, and does, conduct international trade with many countries, including many US allies; however, US-based companies, and companies that do business with the US, which trade in Cuba do so at the risk of US sanctions.[11] Cuba has been a member of the World Trade Organization since 1995.[12] The European Union is Cuba's largest trading partner, and the United States is the fifth-largest exporter to Cuba (6.6% of Cuba's imports come from the US).[13] The Cuban government must, however, pay cash for all food imports from the United States, as credit is not allowed.[14]
As time goes on and more is revealed it seems more and more likely Bibi deliberately allowed the attack to happen to facilitate his other goals. I mean, put yourself in Bibi's position. Bibi just received this report. Bibi was deeply unpopular with his people. Bibi was under investigation for corruption. Bibi knows what kind of a boost wartime leaders usually get. And Bibi has no limits or qualms to what he would do to stay in power. Imagine how easy it would be for this report to just slip off the table, saying it's not feasible. So simple.
Honestly, why wouldn't he do it?
Because that would be quite an evil thing to do. That goes way beyond corruption to allow the death of 100s of your own people. And I don't think someone in his position would be that evil.
Gaza is not a “de facto” country, don’t be absurdIn my books, a country is an area with clearly defined borders that has an independent government. And independent here is not controlled or ruled by anyone else (not one who needs no assistance or who is not influenced by others, those are different kinds of independence) . Gaza has clearly defined borders, HAMAS rules in Gaza, and HAMAS is independent. It makes it a de facto country. And there is nothing absurd in it. The only reason why it is not just a country - lack of international recognition or even desire for such recognition.
We already went over the surveys in which a majority of Palestinians don’t like HamasSince when do people disliking the government stops it from being a government?
Also, Latvia has modern military equipment, some of which they even donated to Ukraine.And yet I consider HAMAS far more deadly force than the Latvian army. It is larger, more professional, better trained...
Since when do people disliking the government stops it from being a government
And yet I consider HAMAS far more deadly force than the Latvian army. It is larger, more professional, better trained...
Israel was able to completely blockade Gaza, so never mind de-facto or de-jure independence*rolls eyes* It only proves a hostile action of Israel against Gaza it doesn't change the fact that Gaza is a de-facto country. I gave a rather detailed explanation of how I define a country
Technicalities of whether Gaza is a country are secondary
the nature of the war is equivalent to a war between countries.
...In a stretched version of the "Israeli" perspective, I do believe this. The Hamas network is going to be very disbursed and their tunnel network will not be interconnected. There would be numerous caches and secondary tunnel exits, and the best places for those exits are in/near crowded buildings, where cargo could leave one tunnel system, travel under cover (within a building), and then enter another tunnel system or be deposited in a cache. And who in Gaza wants to inform the Israeli about their neighbor's odd foot traffic after the years of harms done? How many would actively support camouflaging suspicious activity even if they are not willing to fight? You know those fierce Ukrainian babushkas? You can bet there are Palestinian babushkas also. Some not-quite-Hamas haulers sleep with their family, some not-quite-Hamas supplies are stashed over here, this business owner leaves food packages out for someone he never met or talked to, etc. If it isn't happening in this building, it is happening in the next building, even if what is happening doesn't involve a tunnel or weapons.
Do you seriously believe that HALF of all residential buildings in Gaza are terrorist bases?
...
Let us presume Bibi was not evil enough to do this... Did you notice that when he lost voter support due to corruption charges, that he accepted voter support from the far right groups (those people "who want someone to give them the authority to hurt others")? He gave them jobs within the administration that include the authority to exert control and make decisions, including to delay, discredit, or ignore the intelligence reports that the IDF was presenting to the government, and to influence what is happening in the West Bank. These "religious nationalists" believe that no one except their ideological herd is "clean before god", meaning that they would have considered it perfectly okay to warn their friends and family in the Hamas-targeted areas and to let the rest suffer from the Oct 7th attack, because it would be "for a good cause", or "god's will", etc.As time goes on and more is revealed it seems more and more likely Bibi deliberately allowed the attack to happen to facilitate his other goals. I mean, put yourself in Bibi's position. Bibi just received this report. Bibi was deeply unpopular with his people. Bibi was under investigation for corruption. Bibi knows what kind of a boost wartime leaders usually get. And Bibi has no limits or qualms to what he would do to stay in power. Imagine how easy it would be for this report to just slip off the table, saying it's not feasible. So simple.
Honestly, why wouldn't he do it?
Because that would be quite an evil thing to do. That goes way beyond corruption to allow the death of 100s of your own people. And I don't think someone in his position would be that evil.
I think it's more likely that he receives many such intelligence reports, and most do not come to fruition, so he had no way of telling that this would be the one they went with. Especially given the ambitious scope of it. No one can prepare for everything. Incompetence seems the most likely explanation.
They knew Hamas's plan of attack, even if they didn't know the exact date increasing security at those locations would have been trivial, albeit expensive.
They could have also sent their spies to try to figure out the date so they would have been ready.
They knew Hamas's plan of attack, even if they didn't know the exact date increasing security at those locations would have been trivial, albeit expensive.
Perhaps they thought their security was already adequate to respond to any such attack? Hubris is a form of incompetence. And would increasing security at those locations for 365 days a year not just cause Hamas to select a different target location?
Sounds like this war is gonna turn into an urban version of Vietnam, where they're going to be poking every hole in the ground looking for HAMAS.I doubt that the urban version of Vietnam is what gonna happen. There are solutions to tunnel networks, including a simple (and quite ecologically damaging) option of pumping seawater in the tunnel network. Sure, some kind of guerilla attacks on occupying IDF force is guaranteed but I don't expect anything major.
Also did that war in Venezuela happen or is it still imminent?
https://twitter.com/MustafaBarghou1/status/1732792133147303943
https://twitter.com/MustafaBarghou1/status/1732792133147303943
I see POWs stripped to avoid an unexpected Allah akBOOM from a hidden suicide vest, a common thing among those guys.
The claim of "arrested all the men and children above the age of 15" is just that, a claim with no evidence attached.
A much better way to kill them all off would have been to make them all get 30 years of education and given them all smartphones and social media instead.
https://twitter.com/MustafaBarghou1/status/1732792133147303943God damn man
Of course! Homeless people aren't starving, freezing and suffering, they have smartphones. That's a great metric for how well-off someone is. As is GDP, it's not like GDP fails as a measure of economic health. I'm living in a country that has a really high GDP. I mean we have a GDP per capita of around 100,000 USD here! We're so wealthy! Which is why I'm a 30-year-old man living with my parents and my younger brother because we can't afford (despite decent jobs) places of our own.QuoteA much better way to kill them all off would have been to make them all get 30 years of education and given them all smartphones and social media instead.
They have(had) smartphones and social media and universities and stuff. By no means rich, with all international aid, they lived decent lives economically speaking. Their GDP per capita was close to other countries of the region like Egypt or Lebanon and better than most countries in Africa. By no means, Gaza was a dirt-poor open-air concentration camp living in terrible conditions.
What you need to make some countries produce fewer babies... - to give women the right to control their reproduction.
And what human alive would tolerate being treated like Jews were treated on Oct 7? Sorry, some restrained topless men don't impress me after all the footage I have seen both from Israel and Ukraine. It is A WAR. Don't apply peacetime logic and morals to it.???
Well, 2 years of a brutal war in your country tend to do that to a person... You can't even imagine how unhinged I am by the standards of people living in safe peaceful places and making moral judgments for people who do not.And what human alive would tolerate being treated like Jews were treated on Oct 7? Sorry, some restrained topless men don't impress me after all the footage I have seen both from Israel and Ukraine. It is A WAR. Don't apply peacetime logic and morals to it.???
You seem pretty unhinged m8 ngl
Well, 2 years of a brutal war in your country tend to do that to a person... You can't even imagine how unhinged I am by the standards of people living in safe peaceful places and making moral judgments for people who do not.Ah okay so you have just lost it then
Even if I accept the claim that Israel is just randomly detaining all men of fighting age (but then why we haven't seen such photos from the beginning?)Because they keep shooting journalists and every time someone posts a link to the UN or Amnesty or a journalist reporting just that you don't read it, don't see it, then call them terrorists anyways. Like some of these vids come from the IDF themselves. They just don't give a fuck
it is a justified military tactic in a hostile urban environment - detain all men who may be combatants until proven otherwise. And those men aren't beaten, aren't tortured, aren't raped. Like, I dunno, Ukrainians on occupied territories. But somehow this mild, by standards of war, treatment is something "impossible to tolerate".Imagine you are a Palestinian from Gaza. You are born into siege; your mother has no pain killers for your birth. Your mother was forced at gunpoint to leave her house. Her house now belongs to settlers. You have no clean water, no power, no electricity. If you get ill and develop asthma from breathing in white phosphorous, good fucking luck getting medicine. You live under the reign of a terrorist regime the Israeli government propped up to stop civil government forming. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) You cannot leave by sea or air, you have no future, everywhere you go is controlled by checkpoints. Your house is destroyed in 2008. You can't rebuild it, you don't even have the concrete for it. (https://web.archive.org/web/20130920041254/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/37F43DF70A64244A85257A8300515BE3) Every year you are bombed, monitored, your friends imprisoned and detained without cause, sniped without redress, attacked and killed by settlers... And it's always your fault. You reach the age of 18 in time to finally have your newest home destroyed, just so you can be treated as a military target for the crime of... Being a potential military aged male. You do not know if you will see freedom again, you are stripped naked and brought to a detention camp even though you're not a prisoner of war or a criminal suspect. You have no legal protection, no legal recourse, and you do not know what torture and humiliation you will undergo. (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/) When you will be freed. Or when you will be able to return to see if someone else is going to tell you your home isn't your home again
Just by laws of probability, many of those partially naked men, directly or indirectly participated in an act of utter barbarity on Oct 7th and face the consequences of their EVIL actions. And yes, not all of them participated in it but it is how social species work - if part of your "tribe" does stuff, you'll face consequences, too.I feel dumb. All this time I've been trying to get through to you and you just go up and endorse war crimes against a race because of a terror attack. This has been a total stupid waste of time. You are no different to the boomers I've met who said we should turn Iraq to glass because of 9/11. You're so drunk on revenge you no longer have a sense of right and wrong; no amount of suffering or blood shed will ever be wrong, as long as it's done to the "bad guys." No amount of wrong can be done by the "good guys." You see some horrible shit done and you're all just "haha that supposed to impress me? Are you gonna cry because we took everything from you?"
Also, I just realized that should tides somehow change and Ukraine will start retaking our urban armies, using tactics similar to the ones used by Israel in Gaza City we will be soooo demonized.And this surprises you?
Like look at this video of an IDF soldier grenading a mosque in West Bank. It's a Mosque. In a territory that has no Hamas fighters. And the soldiers are filming themselves to brag about it on social media.
Imagine you are a Palestinian from Gaza...It sucks. But he should think about why this happened to him and what to do for something similar not to happen again. We are absolutely innocent victims, Israel is pure evil and I should conquer it all are not great answers. And... there are Syrians, Ukrainians, Yemenis, etc who suffer(ed) way more
You're so drunk on revenge you no longer have a sense of right and wrong; no amount of suffering or blood shed will ever be wrong, as long as it's done to the "bad guys." No amount of wrong can be done by the "good guys." You see some horrible shit done and you're all just "haha that supposed to impress me? Are you gonna cry because we took everything from you?"
And this surprises you?Actually, yes. It surprises me when armies are demonized for merely waging a war in which enemy civilians die\suffer as if there ways to wage war to avoid it. When everyone is accused of war crimes, actual war crimes lose their meaning.
"At least some of those civilians might have participated in combat so we should keep all of them prisoner" isn't a great argument to be perfectly honest.When It saves the lives of YOUR soldiers it feels like a way better argument. Also, we are looking at the detaining part, keeping for a prolonged time is another topic entirely.
Disgusting, hate-inducing, unnecessary, unprofessional, zero military necessity. IDF seems to think so too. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-suspends-soldier-who-threw-stun-grenade-into-west-bank-mosque/) I failed to google if he (and his superiors) got more serious punishment than suspension. I hope they do. (BTW, I expected an actual grenade, not a flashbang)WITH OVER A HUNDRED MORE CHILDREN KILLED IN WEST BANK BY SOLDIERS AND SETTLERS (https://www.savethechildren.net/news/least-101-children-killed-west-bank-year) LED BY A RACIST GOVERNMENT MINISTER SETTLER WHO SAYS SORRY MOHAMMAD YOUR RIGHTS DON'T MATTER (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-24/ty-article/.premium/sorry-mohammad-ben-gvir-goes-viral-on-the-left/0000018a-2728-d895-abce-efe9d96d0000)
Also, are you actually trying to whatabout the massacre of October 7th with THIS?Ben Shapiro?
You're the only one trying to 9/11 every discussion about whether we should be cleansing innocent people from the face of the earth for shit they didn't do, just to appease your BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD desire for tribal retribution. How much bloodshed is enough? How much torture finally impresses you? When the Palestinians have finally been evicted from even this refugee camp, and they are like native americans smote to the wind, will you finally say "hmmm perhaps what we did was wrong" as you lie on your deathbed dreaming about how you were big boss because only you were hardcore enough to understand why genociding civilians was totally necessary, source: trust me bro I'm big bossAnd what human alive would tolerate being treated like Jews were treated on Oct 7? Sorry, some restrained topless men don't impress me after all the footage I have seen both from Israel and Ukraine. It is A WAR. Don't apply peacetime logic and morals to it.https://twitter.com/MustafaBarghou1/status/1732792133147303943God damn man
What human alive would tolerate being treated like a Palestinian
journalist stuff - I am too lazy to go through that. Israel, most likely, eliminated some hostileHey there my clever friend you are supporting war crimes again.propagondistsjournalists on purpose (not that there is reliable evidence of that), but most are just victims of war or even combatants.
Palestinians actively use the status of journalists in their war tactics and many of those are just not journalists at all. Foreign journalists just LOVE that place, and when there are many people of a certain category in a dangerous place, a high number of them will die.Yeah especially if you target them. Where does the IDF train its snipers, its spotters? Did they go to the school of USS Liberty or something? Sheesh
It sucks. But he should think about why this happened to him and what to do for something similar not to happen again.A father digs through the ruins of his house to try and find his daughter. (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fQYi_nI2j34)
We are absolutely innocent victims, Israel is pure evil and I should conquer it all are not great answers. And... there are Syrians, Ukrainians, Yemenis, etc who suffer(ed) way morewHatAbOuTIsM
Actually... Nope. Not at all. If some Ukrainians will go and violently kill and rape some random Russian civilians I won't celebrate them as freaking heroes. I have moral clarity and know that such barbarity is never justifiable. And, believe it or not, if I see Israeli going door-to-door killing and raping, I won't be supporting that.Nice to know you have such high moral standards
He responded that in the interests of maintaining warriors' morale and fighting fitness during armed conflict, it was permitted to "satisfy the evil inclination by lying with attractive Gentile women against their will".Karim is the current serving Rabbi for the IDF operation in Gaza and West Bank
His nomination on Monday as the military's head rabbi by its chief of staff revived public debate over Karim.
Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel's best-selling newspaper, weighed in with a front-page headline that read: "New chief military rabbi: rape is permissible in a war".
Reports of torture as a means of extracting confessions arguably began early in the occupation, on evidence for the first decade. In June 1977 the Sunday Times claimed torture was used against the Arab population of the occupied territories. In early 1978 an employee of the US Consulate in East Jerusalem, Alexandra Johnson, sent two cables detailing evidence Israeli authorities were systematically using torture on West Bank suspects in Nablus, Ramallah, Hebron and the Russian compound of Jerusalem. Early reports indicated detainees were stripped naked and subject for long periods to cold showers or cold air ventilation. People were hung from meat hooks in Hebron and Ramallah. She concluded torture was applied at three rising levels of maltreatment, (a) level one: daily beatings with fists and sticks; (b) level two: alternate immersions of the victim in hot and cold water, beating of genitals and interrogation about twice daily over several hours; (c) level three: rotating teams of interrogators working on a nude person under detention by applying electrical devices, high frequency sonic noise, refrigeration, prolonged hanging by the hands or feet, and inserting objects into their penises or rectums. This last level was used on those who refused at earlier levels to denounce other Palestinians. 78% of a sample of 40 detainees in 1985 said they had been sexually molested, and 67% stated they had been humiliated on religious grounds. Former inmates of the secret detention centre Camp 1391, whose existence is not even officially acknowledged, claim sexual harassment, even rape, forms part of the interrogation techniques. The first important study was conducted by the first Palestinian NGO, al-Haq, in 1986, which focused on practices at the Al Fara'a Detention Centre.It's a good thing journalists have only managed to survive filming IDF destroying their homes, killing their children, attacking their religious sites and hospitals, telling them to evacuate into convoys (only to blow up them up (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-continues-bombarding-gaza-including-places-it-told-palestinians-to-evacuate-to)), cut off their water and power. Because otherwise you might have to start thinking
Also, why exactly would I want revenge on Palestinians? because they are pro-Russian? Not that much and them being pro-Russian doesn't influence the Ukrainian-Russian war much if at all. Israel is also somewhat pro-Russian because of many Russian Jew voters. Israeli politicians have to take them into account. And it influences our war to some degree. By your logic, on Oct 7, I should have been like "Those Jews are getting what they deserve for their friendship with Russia! Hope Bibi is happy about his dealings with Putin!"You tell me. You don't have any basis for anything you support here, you just show up and throw mud at everything and everyone without ever once trying to justify your own position. It's just "there is no evidence IDF does anything wrong, but if there is evidence, the journalists are propagandists, and even if they weren't terrorists, the truth is it was an accident, but even if it wasn't an accident it was justified and you're just peace-afflicted civvies who don't understand my enlightened warrior sage kung fu which definitely excuses murder"
Actually, yes. It surprises me when armies are demonized for merely waging a war in which enemy civilians die\suffer as if there ways to wage war to avoid it. When everyone is accused of war crimes, actual war crimes lose their meaning.Okay boss maybe you shouldn't support targeting civilians and journalists because:
it is a justified military tactic in a hostile urban environment - detain all men who may be combatants until proven otherwise. And those men aren't beaten, aren't tortured, aren't raped.Targeting civilians until they're proven civilians (lmao what) is a war crime boss, as is beating them, torturing them and raping them.
Just by laws of probability, many of those partially naked men, directly or indirectly participated in an act of utter barbarity on Oct 7th and face the consequences of their EVIL actions. And yes, not all of them participated in it but it is how social species work - if part of your "tribe" does stuff, you'll face consequences, too.Targeting civilians because they share the same race as a terrorist group is a war crime boss. Like imagine if the British treated the Irish the same way the Israelis treated Palestinians. IRA nearly killed our head of state. What was the response? Turn Ireland into glass? Pft, no. Police investigation. Imagine if everyone thought like you
When It saves the lives of YOUR soldiers it feels like a way better argument. Also, we are looking at the detaining part, keeping for a prolonged time is another topic entirely."Why did you war crimes?"
Haaretz published an analysis by Yagil Levy, a sociology professor at the Open University of Israel, which found that in three earlier campaigns in Gaza, in the period from 2012-22, the ratio of civilian deaths to the total of those killed in airstrikes hovered at about 40%. That ratio declined to 33% in a bombing campaign earlier this year, called Operation Shield and Arrow.Mission accomplished boys. We did it. We finally killed terrorism
In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world during the 20th century, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.
“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”
And that includes doing things like trying your damndest to not killing the people that your enemies are taking hostage, just because those hostages happen to be their own citizens. And that's what Hamas do when they put their operations under a school, and what Russia do when they encourage their citizens to move into the occupied Ukrainian cities: They're taking those civilians hostage. So do try not to kill the hostages.How romanticized. I don't recall the West ever imposing a duty to die a stupid death on their soldiers, let alone conscripts. They certainly wouldn't need to add "beyond the call of duty" to their posthumous award ceremonies.
Does that mean we expect you to take actions in a manner that increases the risk to your soldiers lives, but protects 'enemy' civilians? Yes. The life of a soldier is worth less than the life of a civilian, flags be damned. That's the sacrifice a soldier makes when they become a soldier. That's what makes soldiers worthy of respect.
How romanticized. I don't recall the West ever imposing a duty to die a stupid death on their soldiers, let alone conscripts. They certainly wouldn't need to add "beyond the call of duty" to their posthumous award ceremonies.
"Hey, guys. Have fun in your war. Please, don't bother normal part of humanity. Refugees who want to get away from this insanity are welcome."
How romanticized. I don't recall the West ever imposing a duty to die a stupid death on their soldiers, let alone conscripts. They certainly wouldn't need to add "beyond the call of duty" to their posthumous award ceremonies.
I'm not calling for a complete abjucation of reducing all risk to soldiers, I'm saying that when people let "neccesary" become the absolution for "evil" in the "neccesary evil", then "evil" becomes the default course of action. There has to be a balance, it cannot become victory at all costs.
The PLO recognized Israel as part of the 1993 Oslo Accords, but Hamas has refused to recognize the Jewish state. Just a few years ago, it released an updated policy document with amended political rhetoric, although the terror group still views the destruction of Israel as one of its major objectives.
[I really-really liked what I heard - Demilitarization (read long-term occupation), deradicalization, education reform, Marshal plan style reconstruction with the help of moderate Arab countries, kicking UNRWA out... It is what I would done. Any diplomatic process is possible only after deradicalization is done. Because right now, a two-state solution is, indeed, not a possibility.
The lack of a Ukrainian attack on Russia prior to the war is a pretty critical thing missing in that comparison. Maybe some Ukrainians throwing rocks at Russian officers, at least?
This is what happens in a world where people no longer even trust "universal" gestures of surrender like white flag - because people use that symbol as a ruse.Aye there's a reason why Geneva conventions and standard rules of engagement have warships fight under their own country's flag and their soldiers fight in their own country's uniforms to be afforded wartime protections regarding POWs and surrenders. False surrenders and using unarmed ambulances as troop transports, using the enemy's uniforms e.t.c. void wartime protections (WWII commandos wore their own uniforms behind enemy lines, so in theory should have had their surrenders accepted, whilst a saboteur or spy in plain clothes or enemy uniform would not). Even irregular forces who don't have a uniform are expected to wear some marking, e.g. an armband or headband, marking them as belonging to a combat unit.
While I would default to "trust but verify", I can totally understand why people no longer just take such gestures at their face value.The IDF report basically lays the blame on two things:
Again, this is why war sucks - it just eliminates any semblance of civility from human interaction.
So what will this war buy with the blood of the all dead? Not an end to the conflict but a period of calm for Israelis that will end again, necessarily, because the underlying conflict still exists. Politically, perhaps, it will guarantee that the febrile rightwing coalition of Netanyahu lasts another year or longer with him at its helm.It's amusing that this article from 2014 talking about Netanyahu riding this war with no win state to another year in power (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/gaza-war-futile-neither-side-can-win) and this article from 2023 describing the exact same thing with the exact same person (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/netanyahu-putting-political-future-ahead-good-israel-rcna130000) shows how little has changed with Netanyahu at the helm.
And it will end as the last two Gazan conflicts have ended. Egypt, a historic broker of ceasefires in Gaza, will calculate a point when Hamas has been hurt enough and public opinion over its inaction is beginning to become damaging. It will step in with a deal that will see it talk once again, albeit in a limited fashion, to Israel – and at last to regulate a situation it does not want to see spiral out of control.
Then this stupidest of wars will stop.
Israel's tanks will pull back to their bases. The Gazan rocket teams will lick their wounds, rebuild their arsenals in the metal shops and commission new murals for the walls to sanctify their fallen dead in the public memory.
And the civilian dead will stay dead, discarded pieces in a pointless game of chess.
Given his weak political position and the widespread expectation that he could be sidelined once the fighting ends in Gaza, they said, Netanyahu has a strong motive to prolong the military offensive.
“He has every incentive to keep the war going, to ensure his political survival,” one U.S. lawmaker who asked not to be named told NBC News.
At the same time, Israel is increasingly isolated internationally as the Palestinian death toll in the conflict has reached 18,700, with 70% of them women and children, according to Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry. The vast majority of the territory's 2.2 million people are displaced, and half of them are estimated to face starvation, according to the U.N.
A current Israeli official said that Netanyahu is pivoting to the right as the domestic political cost of his government’s failure to prevent the Oct. 7 attack looms. The attack, which resulted in the deaths of 1,200 people and the kidnapping of about 240, was the worst terrorist strike in Israeli history.
Her relatives and the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem say a mother and daughter were killed inside the Holy Family Church complex on Saturday by sniper fire.
The BBC has asked the IDF for comment.
The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said two Christian women - named as Nahida and her daughter Samar - were shot and killed while walking to a building in the church complex known as the Sister's Convent.
"One was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety," a statement said. Seven more people were shot and wounded as they "tried to protect others inside the church compound" on Saturday.
The patriarchate said no warning had been given and added: "They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the parish, where there are no belligerents."
The patriarchate said that earlier on Saturday an Israeli tank fired on part of the church compound with 54 disabled people inside. It caused a fire that destroyed the building's generator, the only source of electricity, and some of the disabled people can no longer use their respirators, the statement said.
Now consider if they were Palestinians, and whether Israel would've published anything in that case.You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66682821) and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published report
https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamasEh, it's poll in the NY Post.
Well... the US will have... interesting foreign policy in a few decades.
Support Israel. It's the only real winning move in America.I generally agree that it is the only financially-winning move if one is entering a professional or corporate career... but not all of the current protesters would have that choice. Wouldn't a Palestinian-American be discriminated against regardless, because of Oct 7th? And once Palestinian-Americans have been blacklisted, what is the next group that would be blacklisted? I'm paraphrasing Martin Niemöller here, but the truth might be closer to "they can get still get decent professional/corporate work if they stick with the communities they were supporting and continue to fight the discrimination" and "pointing out unjust behavior and violent behavior is never wrong, but it can be poorly timed and poorly done".
https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas
Well... the US will have... interesting foreign policy in a few decades.
Now consider if they were Palestinians, and whether Israel would've published anything in that case.You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66682821) and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published report
Those who support Israel will be rewarded and become more powerful.
Those who oppose Israel will find opportunities for advancement denied to them, and can have fun dying in a gutter, utterly powerless and with no voice.
The internet is a horrible thing... now I've seen a video of an Israeli soldier pooping in a prayer rug because there was no running water in Gaza.(true, false, unsure...)
But, but, but, October 7th was entirely unprovoked. (Sarcasm fully intended.)
The tally as of 4th October was 248 Palestinians killed by Israelis this year, and 35 Israelis by Palestinians. Every week there were more killings, the vast majority unjustifiable like this one. We had an ongoing conversation around my household about how long it would be before it all blew up. It triggered again every week (often daily) when more were murdered. My prediction was 12 months but it came a bit sooner.
Er...no. At least not in the Ivys and Ivy-adjacent.Those who support Israel will be rewarded and become more powerful.
Those who oppose Israel will find opportunities for advancement denied to them, and can have fun dying in a gutter, utterly powerless and with no voice.
Unless you're in academia. Then you should be anti-Israel, anti-capitalist, pro-segregationRacial Affinity Group Caucusing, and probably anti-natalist. (You can't quite call pedophiles "M.A.P.s" yet, though.)
{snip} But this cannot ever justify attacking anyone other than those directly conducting or supporting violence. {snip}
It wasn't unprovoked, but if your neighborhood is being attacked by corrupt law enforcement you don't respond by attacking the random people that live in the neighborhoods where that law enforcement is from. You attack the law enforcement itself.
Sure there are basically portions of Israel that are essentially corrupt law enforcement, or gangs that are allowed to operate because of "law enforcement's" blind eye. But this cannot ever justify attacking anyone other than those directly conducting or supporting violence. That is, attack should be in proportion to violation. Sure yes the general Israeli population is somewhat culpable, if for no other reason that they don't stand up against violence committed "in the name of Israel", same as some of the residents of Gaza are culpable for not standing up against violence committed "in the name of Palestine." But is silence or indifference really the same as active participation? If so, then we all deserve ultimate violence, because there is no meaningful distinction of degrees of culpability.
EDIT: is it possible, by definition, for a State to conduct terrorism? Isn't it simply acts of war or (war) crimes? Honest question here, I thought terrorism has a more narrow definition. Otherwise it seems like the term just gets watered down, and absolutely "anything" can be labeled terrorism.
Have they changed the numbers recently? I thought the number of murdered by Hamas was 1200, plus the 250 hostages.
Er...no. At least not in the Ivys and Ivy-adjacent.
Their University leadership is getting chewed up over their pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel statements.
The Pope has gone on record (again) accusing Israel of 'terrorism' after a woman and her daughter were murdered by an IDF sniper on church grounds.
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/)
After the hostages being mowed down like cattle by IDF soldiers while shirtless and carrying white flags it is entirely clear to me that this whole time the IDF has been just roving around like bandits doing endless massacres in the Gaza Strip. Whether this is direct targeting or absolutely mind-blowing, utter, and casual disregard for human life doesn't matter. It's malice either way.Terrorist until proven posthumously innocent. Civilians targeted on purpose, civilian infrastructure targeted on purpose, civilian housing targeted on purpose, hospitals raided, mosques and churches bombed - what the actual fuck is going through their heads
The killing of hostages was a mistake, but only because they should've been Palestinians.
Have they changed the numbers recently? I thought the number of murdered by Hamas was 1200, plus the 250 hostages.
700-800 civilians. Notably there were well over 300 IDF/Police personnel in the ~1200 (331 comes to mind but I haven't checked recently).
If you carefully check the 1200 figure (it was originally plastered everywhere as 1400 but Israel was counting about 200 Hamas fighter deaths amongst the toll of those killed by Hamas ::) ) commonly cited in the media you'll notice that it is always 'mostly civilians' or 'mainly civilians'. No one talks about the military deaths, which have some credence as being legitimate (military) targets. Take off also the 60 odd unconfirmed (could well be Hamas, or data error, etc.) and whatever the non-zero number of friendly-fire deaths that the IDF were responsible for. They definitely killed some, it's a vexed question how many since we only have a handful of personal testimonies to go on (eg. the IDF calling down bombs on an IDF military facility which contained sheltering Israeli citizens as well as occupying Hamas militants, reports of the IDF helicopters firing indiscriminately, a report which I can't find again of an off-duty Israeli policeman being shot in cold blood even though he had his hands in the air and was shouting in Hebrew that he was an Israeli - there may be others). That gets me to no more than 800, maybe somewhat less.
Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.
Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.
And...?
Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
So, an anti-Houtis naval task force is forced. I am really curious if it will be 1) Waste millions worth of expensive SAM to shoot down cheap drones. or 2) Actually use the power of modern warships and retaliate by flattening pirate basesTrust, it's much cheaper to $2 million per drone than it is to launch a campaign against the houthis without thinking this through. Saudis have been blockading and bombing Yemen with US and UK support, Houthis still managed to grow stronger and acquire ballistic missiles & drones capable of striking gas and oil facilities in saudi arabia. This academic Yadav suggests they're doing this to rally Yemenis who otherwise don't care for the Houthi's political ambitions. (https://time.com/6548183/yemen-houthi-rebels-red-sea-attacks-impact/) Yemen's situation is pretty miserable; humanitarian crises, blockade, rampant inflation, insecurity and war still ravages the country. Leave the country alone and the people are going to look for alternatives to the Houthis. Attack it and the people will rally behind them. It's why even after 7 years of campaigning, proxy warfare and 150,000 people killed from violence later, Houthis are still doing great.
Military personnel are valid targets for fighting, but the torture, mutilation, and desecration of their corpses are still war crimes.
And...?
Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
Yes.
What about that what-aboutism?
If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.
And...?
Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
You made clear that you think them being military and police, as opposed to "relatively innocent" civillians, justified what happened to them. I pointed out that civilian deaths weren't the only thing that was wrong that day. That is my point.If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.And...?
Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
Sure yes the general Israeli population is somewhat culpable, if for no other reason that they don't stand up against violence committed "in the name of Israel", same as some of the residents of Gaza are culpable for not standing up against violence committed "in the name of Palestine."
You made clear that you think them being military and police, as opposed to "relatively innocent" civillians, justified what happened to them. I pointed out that civilian deaths weren't the only thing that was wrong that day. That is my point.If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.And...?
Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?
Dude, neither of those comments were from the post you cited but rather from a previous post.
If you had bothered to follow the conversation you would have perhaps been able to follow why certain comments were being made.
Terrorist until proven posthumously innocent. Civilians targeted on purpose, civilian infrastructure targeted on purpose, civilian housing targeted on purpose, hospitals raided, mosques and churches bombed - what the actual fuck is going through their heads
What could they possibly be thinking? (https://www2.cbn.com/news/israel/gaza-bishop-hamas-used-church-fire-rockets)That's from 2014
When rockets are launched from churches, those same churches tend to get bombed.
The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem expresses its strongest condemnation of the Israeli airstrike that have struck its church compound in the city of Gaza.
The Patriarchate emphasizes that targeting churches and their institutions, along with the shelters they provide to protect innocent citizens, especially children and women who have lost their homes due to Israeli airstrikes on residential areas over the past thirteen days, constitutes a war crime that cannot be ignored.
Despite the evident targeting of the facilities and shelters of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and other churches – including the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem Hospital, other schools, and social institutions – the Patriarchate, along with the other churches, remain committed to fulfilling its religious and moral duty in providing assistance, support, and refuge to those in need, amidst continuous Israeli demands to evacuate these institutions of civilians and the pressures exerted on the churches in this regard.
The Patriarchate stresses that it will not abandon its religious and humanitarian duty, rooted in its Christian values, to provide all that is necessary in times of war and peace alike.
On Saturday, Vatican News reported that the IDF had entered the compound, shooting at anyone leaving the church. “The victims are an elderly woman and her daughter who rushed out of the building to rescue her mother. Israel has justified the attack, claiming the presence of a missile launcher in the parish,” it reported.
In a statement quoted by the BBC on Sunday, the IDF said: “During the dialogue between the IDF and representatives of the community, no reports of a hit on the church, nor civilians being injured or killed, were raised. A review of the IDF’s operational findings support this.”
At the Angelus on Sunday, Pope Francis condemned the attack on the compound, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns . . . Some say, ‘This is terrorism. This is war.’ Yes, it is war. It is terrorism.”
Writing on social media on Saturday, Hammam Farah, a psychotherapist based in Canada, described the two women as “family friends”. They had been walking to the convent to use the only bathroom, he wrote. “Their bodies remain strewn across the church courtyard. . . The Christian community in Gaza is on the verge of extinction.” His own family members remained in the compound.
According to the Patriarchate, earlier in the morning “a rocket from an IDF tank targeted the convent.” The building’s generator — its only source of electricity — and “fuel resources” had been destroyed. “The house was damaged by the resulting explosion and massive fire. Two more rockets, fired by an IDF tank, targeted the same Convent and rendered the home uninhabitable. The 54 disabled persons are currently displaced and without access to the respirators that some of them need to survive.”
The statement continued that, on Friday night, three people had been wounded inside the church compound as the result of “heavy bombing” in the area. Solar panels and water tanks — “indispensable for the survival of the community” — had been destroyed. The Patriarchate was “at a loss to comprehend how such an attack could be carried out, even more so as the whole Church prepares for Christmas”.
n addition, under the ICC Rome Statute, in non-international armed conflicts, it is war crime to intentionally direct attacks against protected objects, namely buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected. To benefit from this protection from all forms of attack, the protected objects must not be used by a party to a conflict for acts harmful to the enemy.I'm sure the Pope is just lying though and it is both moral and productive to bomb churches because they're harbouring terrorists until they prove they're not. And I may as well trust police who swear the black man they just killed reached for a gun. Can't wait for the next episode of "we didn't kill you, Hamas did. But if we did kill you, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, you can't prove you didn't have a rocket launcher."
If they were firing rockets from churches in 2014 what makes you think they wouldn't be doing it now?The lack of evidence?
Also, the lack of remaining churchesCan't be a potential military site if there are no religious sites. Can't be an enemy if there are no military aged males. 300 IQ art of war
“Yesterday night, about 8:00, the Israeli army hit the building of the Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza – Saint Porphyrius.
“This building it is the offices of the church and it was inside the building, about 150 persons. So they hit it and they killed too many people. So in the ruins we try now to take out the killed people.
“We have a question.
“What for… what for they killed innocent people, children, babies, old people, sick people, who had come in the church to have the protection?”
Reminds me of this one dude who tried to convince me the way to solve the syrian refugee crisis was to nuclear bomb ethiopia. It was so fucking confusing on so many levels
You're just too short-sighted to see the advantages of creating so many brand new jobs in the worldwide radiological-handling industry. Move fast, break stuff!Don't forget about all the people needed to build all the bunkers that will be wanted in case the nukes continue to fly!
Broken window theory school of diplomacyYou're just too short-sighted to see the advantages of creating so many brand new jobs in the worldwide radiological-handling industry. Move fast, break stuff!Don't forget about all the people needed to build all the bunkers that will be wanted in case the nukes continue to fly!
About 1% of Gaza dead in two months.With half a million starving :/ (https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/with-20000-deaths-israel-wipes-out-about-1-of-gazas-pre-war-population-16356722)
https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/gaza-hospital-chief-admits-to-being-hamas-commander/
Al Jazeera vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnPkkiEY8z0)Violating peace treaties in the name of security -_-
So, Israel says it should control the Philadelphi Strip... I think this is pre-planning for their withdrawal out of Gaza. They want to convince some other idiots to be "peacekeepers" in Gaza, but they still want a place where they can set up sensors and surveillance for tunnels, and do facial recognition on everyone passing through (and make arrests, etc).
I needed to Google the Philadelphi Strip to make sure it was what I assumed was the Egyptian-Gaza border, and this is what Google decided I needed:Bibi to open his own hunky Gaza strip club?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
But anyway yeah cake and eat it too
and this is what Google decided I needed:Never let it be said that Uncle Google doesn't try to be accomodating...
Al Jazeera vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnPkkiEY8z0)
So, Israel says it should control the Philadelphi Strip... I think this is pre-planning for their withdrawal out of Gaza. They want to convince some other idiots to be "peacekeepers" in Gaza, but they still want a place where they can set up sensors and surveillance for tunnels, and do facial recognition on everyone passing through (and make arrests, etc).
More cynically, if they achieve their stated "war goal" of destroying Hamas then control over the strip will be unnecessary and if they don't then what has the war and the tens of thousands civilian casualties been all about...
If the USA will achieve their stated "war goal" of destroying Nazi party then control over the large part of Germany will be unnecessary and if they don't then what has the war and the hundreds of thousands civilian casualties been all about...Gazans don't even control their own water, how tf do they control Hamas?
Of course, Israel must occupy Gaza and establish control until Palestinians (or at least Gazans) will admit that they followed a monstrous ideology, apologize for their vile crimes and build a political system that would make new Hamas impossible.
If Germans, past WW2, opted for the route of declaring themselves innocent victims, continued practicing Nazi ideology in the underground and waged armed resistance against occupiers - USA would stat in Germany for far longer...
A real estate company has swooped in on a stretch of beachfront in Gaza in a bid to build luxury homes on land reduced to rubble. Harey Zahav, a leading real estate company in Israel, is advertising building beach homes in Gush Katif, as war rages on between Israel and Hamas.
The region, inside Gaza, was part of 17 Israeli settlements inside the strip until August 2005 when the Israeli army forcibly removed Jewish residents from their homes after Israel "unilaterally disengaged" from the region. In a string of posts to Harey Zahav's Instagram account, the company shares its intentions to build the condos on the beachfront, with videos showing workers talking about plans on-site, as well as other graphics showing what appear to be housing layout and even the opportunity to buy at presale.
"We at Harey Zahav are working to prepare the ground for a return to Gush Katif," a translation seen by Express.co.uk reads. "A number of our employers have started working on the reclamation of the area, the removal of waste and the expulsion of invaders."
Multiple posts on social media appear to show that the company is in Gaza and already carrying out work.
One video shows Shalom Warmstein, described as a 'business associate' on Harey Zahav's website, dressed in military fatigues and allegedly in Gaza.
To the sound of construction works in the background, he says: "What's up, wow, I miss you. We are here in the heart of Gaza doing what we do. Good luck to you, I love you, bye bye," according to translation software used by Express.co.uk.
In another post, a CAT excavator can be seen cleaning the ground, with a vast ocean in the background.
A separate image shows three men holding a yellow and blue Israel flag that reads: "Another brick is being built — we will remember and come back."
More detailed real estate plans show a graphic of the Gaza Strip with dots pointing towards proposed units and their planned locations, with new names for settlements, and a caption that reads: "Now at presale prices."
It is unclear if Harey Zahav has started accepting payments for its properties. The company did not respond to a request for comment.
Karim Ali, international coordinator and co-founder of paracycling team the Gaza Sunbirds, told Express.co.uk that the activities "didn't surprise" him.
He said: "We were seeing early designs coming out from these agencies, and ultimately speaking, I think this just prequalifies what we've been saying along, that this war has nothing to do with Hamas or what happened on October 7. It's being motivated by profits, as war often is. It is a war of conquest.
"These houses that are being built, in my opinion, are nothing short of colonial settlements being built on stolen land — not land from Palestine but land from Palestinians.
"It's speaking about what is to come, and I think the world should treat this as a late-stage warning signal of the true extent of their horrible intent for Gaza."
The United Nations has called on Israel to end “unlawful killings” and settler violence in the occupied West Bank, warning of a rapidly deteriorating human rights situation during intensified Israeli raids.
In a report published on Thursday, the UN Human Rights Office detailed a “sharp increase” in air strikes and military incursions into densely populated refugee camps, resulting in deaths, injuries and widespread damage to civilian infrastructure in the occupied territory.
“The use of military tactics means and weapons in law enforcement contexts, the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force, and the enforcement of broad, arbitrary and discriminatory movement restrictions that affect Palestinians are extremely troubling,” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk said in a statement.
Since then, the UN has verified the deaths of at least 300 Palestinians in the West Bank, including 79 children, the report said. Of these, 291 were killed by Israeli forces, eight by settlers and one was killed by either soldiers or settlers.
Nearly 4,800 Palestinians have been arrested since the war on Gaza began.
Since October 7, the UN has documented a “sharp rise in settler attacks”, including “shootings, burning of homes and vehicles, and uprooting of trees”.
...the occupation army targeted and destroyed more than 200 archaeological and heritage sites out of 325 sites in the Gaza Strip, including ancient mosques, churches, schools, museums, ancient houses, and various heritage sites.
...Truth...
Can't think of a scenario more dangerous to the zionist project than friendly Israeli-Palestinian relations where rule of law & diplomatic relations and not military force set the stage.
...
The equation of Palestine with WWII-era Germany, and Hamas with the Nazi party is hilarious.
- Alright, we gotta incentivise the population to boot those genocidal bastards outta power. Let us commence wholesale infanticide. Seems like the only way.
- Yes sir! -- Sir, we appear to have failed to enact political change yet.
- Have you been bombing the children?
- Yes sir!
- Well then, have they mentioned why they persist in their evil ways?
- They say their hearts were steeled after seeing all those dead children we bombed.
- How odd. Seems we haven't bombed enough children. After all, what else can you do.
- ... Sir, I was thinking. Isn't it a bit wrong to be bombing all those children?
- Hmm. Yes, I see what you're saying. But look, the government is genocidal and some of their parents did elect those bastards before they were born. And that makes them as complicit as any.
- Yes sir. Of course sir. You've made me feel very naive.
- Indeed. Besides, if you think about it, they're bound to grow up into genocidal maniacs themselves after witnessing all that slaughter we're doing.
- Carry on then?
- Carry on. I'm sure a few thousand more is all it takes.
I guess Germans and Japanese were so wrong to meekly accept the occupation of evil Americans after all the children killed by carpet bombing AND nuclear bombs. They should have met the occupation with armed resistance and wrapped all of their culture around the revenge and idea of genociding all Americans. Like Palestinians (the most virtuous ethnic group on the Earth according to the UN and many others), did and keep doing after each next war THEY start.No one has ever claimed Palestinians as the most virtuous ethnic group on earth, I doubt even the most utterly unhinged and extremist hamas member (and they can get pretty unhinged) would claim that. You're mistaking people seeing them as undeserving of genocide as people seeing them as virtuous. As it happens the bar for being undeserving of genocide is pretty damn low in my opinion. They just have to exist.
It is a predictable cycle of violence and you seem to only call for punishment for Palestinians and not for anything that would genuinely fix things.QuoteNo. I don't call for punishments. I merely recognize that what Gaza is receiving is not something unjust but a direct consequence of their own choices, including the sheer barbarity of October 7th. Israel had done and is doing many unjust things. But war against HAMAS-run Gaza is no more unjust than the Soviet war against Nazi-run Third Reich (and the USSR being bad guys changes nothing)
And I have suggestions of what needs to be done - the very same thing that was done with Germany post-WW2. American-style occupation is better than Soviet style of occupation and I have very reasonable assumptions that Israeli occupation won't be too fair and too benevolent... but any occupation is better than occupation by Hamas.
IMO, The best theoretical option is having occupation done by peacekeepers from Arabian countries with their oil money being used for rebuilding but the chance for that is slim.
Note that there is no sure way to change Palestinian culture, even if we'll remove the current shit in charge of Israel with the best politicians imaginable, in the end, it all comes to the decisions of the Palestinian people. World and Israel can nudge them in one direction or another but they have their own agency, they make decisions about what to embrace and what not to embrace.
Israel had done and is doing many unjust things. But war against HAMAS-run Gaza is no more unjust than the Soviet war against Nazi-run Third Reich (and the USSR being bad guys changes nothing)
And the Eastern Berlin occupation of Nazi Germany was something nobody should have protested against, called for international condemnation of, or otherwise done anything but nod and go "well better than the Nazis at least"?In 1945? After USSR got the pre-agreed occupation zone (more or less)? No. Not really. You would be laughed at. Years later, when Eastern Germany was not Nazi in any way, yes.
You know what, let's go to a different moral/philosophical question to get at the fundementals: If Ukraine drone striked a school in Russia because they knew a key Russian General was picking up their child there, would that be acceptable collatoral?In a hypothetical, when there is no other possible way to get that general - yes. Borderline yes but yes nevertheless.
partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees
partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees
this
is
genocide
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
[/b]
Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
NYT investigation finds Israel dropped 2,000lb bombs on areas it told civilians to go to (https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1738347980032295218)
A recent article points to the depth of the attempt to erase the palestinian heritage in the gaza strip.
https://english.palinfo.com/Palestinian-Heritage/2023/12/30/311988/ (https://english.palinfo.com/Palestinian-Heritage/2023/12/30/311988/)Quote...the occupation army targeted and destroyed more than 200 archaeological and heritage sites out of 325 sites in the Gaza Strip, including ancient mosques, churches, schools, museums, ancient houses, and various heritage sites.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
NYT investigation finds Israel dropped 2,000lb bombs on areas it told civilians to go toDid Israel ever claim that places they redirect civilians to will be 100% safe? Did Hamas remove all (or any) military assets from those areas?
Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the ConventionNot deliberately targeted. Israel didn't start the war to murder people because them being members of the group. They are waging a defensive war, retaliating to an attack. If this war is a genocide, then most wars are mutual genocides (or one-sided when one size is way stronger)
...the occupation army targeted and destroyed more than 200 archaeological and heritage sites out of 325 sites in the Gaza Strip, including ancient mosques, churches, schools, museums, ancient houses, and various heritage sites.Hamas firing positions may have something to do with that destruction... Even assuming no Hamas there, it is a different war crime, not a genocide.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the groupAgain, by your stretched definition, every war is a genocide. It is impossible to wage a war without causing, at the very least, mental harm to civilians.
With the seemingly constant changing of the definition of genocide it really has lost a lot of meaning over the years, it also doesn't help that people are constantly throwing the word around like a ball in a playground.
^ this guy trollin
According to Lemkin, Ukraine was "perhaps the classic example of Soviet genocide, its longest and broadest experiment in Russification – the destruction of the Ukrainian nation". Lemkin stated that, because Ukrainians were very sensitive to the racial murder of its people and way too populous, the Soviet regime could not follow a pattern of total extermination (as in the Holocaust). Instead the genocidal effort consisted of four steps: 1) extermination of the Ukrainian national elite, 2) liquidation of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 3) extermination of a significant part of the Ukrainian peasantry as "custodians of traditions, folklore and music, national language and literature", and 4) populating the territory with other nationalities with intent of mixing Ukrainians with them, which would eventually lead to the dissolution of the Ukrainian nation.[147][148] The "rediscovery" of Lemkin's 1953 address about the Holodomor has influenced Holodomor scholars, especially his view of genocide as a complex process targeting institutions, culture, and economic existence of a group and not necessarily meaning its "immediate destruction".
here's an idea
- Sir, they've taken hostages!here's an idea
don't use civilians as shields
don't use heritage sites to launch rockets
With the seemingly constant changing of the definition of genocide it really has lost a lot of meaning over the years, it also doesn't help that people are constantly throwing the word around like a ball in a playground.
here's an idea
don't use civilians as shields
don't use heritage sites to launch rockets
here's an idea
don't use civilians as shields
don't use heritage sites to launch rockets
It is pointless. You are quoting a person who declares that warning civilians is proof of genocide.
I'm talking about they dropped bombs on civilians.
QuoteYou know what, let's go to a different moral/philosophical question to get at the fundementals: If Ukraine drone striked a school in Russia because they knew a key Russian General was picking up their child there, would that be acceptable collatoral?In a hypothetical, when there is no other possible way to get that general - yes. Borderline yes but yes nevertheless.
- Sir, they've taken hostages!here's an idea
don't use civilians as shields
don't use heritage sites to launch rockets
- Alright, let's bomb them.
- But, sir, the hostages.
- I know. It's ok, though, because they've taken hostages.
- What?
- What?
Strongpoint has thus stated they find an 'acceptable' method for waging war.If there is no alternative and no reasonable way to avoid the collateral. You missed that part. You are also ignoring the enemy because believe it or not, what the enemy does changes what becomes acceptable. Also, in your example it was a drone not flattening a district with bombs.
The alternative for Israel is using soldiers to clear things out slowly and procedurallyAka increasing the number of killed Israeli soldiers by an order of magnitude or two. You are demanding saving enemy civilians for the cost of your own soldiers against the enemy who will never return the favor.
No, there are lines that are not to be crossed no-matter the opposition those civilians happen to live under.Rules of war have a purpose to make war less horrible. The idea of them is that both countries agree to make their armed forces less effective to reduce overall suffering. If only one side follows the rules it equals to aiding your enemy at the expense of the lives of your soldiers AND civilians. A nation may choose to do so and it is a noble thing to do. But in no way shape or form it is something mandatory, especially when we are talking about Ukraine fighting a war of survival. USA or Israel when fighting a technologically inferior enemy have the luxury of being more picky.
So... I think I've lost the thread here.
What's the benefit of this discussion? Is it just for folks to vent and lament?
Nobody here is going to change any opinions.
it was your words to call israel/gaza a defensive war
again, what happens when israel is done? they just give the land back? un-explode ancient mosques and schools? would palestine start anew as a palestinian state?I am not a seer... There are good scenarios, there are bad scenarios.
I've seen a few articles saying Israel is using AI for target selection and for logistics...
More amusing... it is named "The Gospel".I've seen a few articles saying Israel is using AI for target selection and for logistics...
Wtf is the AI? Skynet?
There's two "main" definitions of genocide, which both origins with Raphael Lemkin, the author and activist who made it his life's work to cement it as a concept in law and morality:
1. The UN Genocide resolution definition; which is a limited vision of Lemkin's ideas mainly encompassing actions with murderous intent. This is also the internationally acknowledged legal definition of genocide as a crime.
2. Lemkin's full vision of what encompassed genocide, which aside from mass murder of people and similar also included cultural side of genocide, the targeting of "national identity cornerstones, the oppression of languages, and similar. The part that makes genocide a murder of the genos, the concept of a people, as opposed to a straight mass murder of persons. Lemkin felt that the UN had failed to take this part seriously and often cited the Holodomor as a genocide that went beyond simply the killing of Ukrainians but a direct attack on the Ukrainian identity, the Ukrainian genos, and the ability of the Ukrainian people to continue being Ukrainian. To directly quote the wikipedia article on the Holodomor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) rather than blather on myself:QuoteAccording to Lemkin, Ukraine was "perhaps the classic example of Soviet genocide, its longest and broadest experiment in Russification – the destruction of the Ukrainian nation". Lemkin stated that, because Ukrainians were very sensitive to the racial murder of its people and way too populous, the Soviet regime could not follow a pattern of total extermination (as in the Holocaust). Instead the genocidal effort consisted of four steps: 1) extermination of the Ukrainian national elite, 2) liquidation of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 3) extermination of a significant part of the Ukrainian peasantry as "custodians of traditions, folklore and music, national language and literature", and 4) populating the territory with other nationalities with intent of mixing Ukrainians with them, which would eventually lead to the dissolution of the Ukrainian nation.[147][148] The "rediscovery" of Lemkin's 1953 address about the Holodomor has influenced Holodomor scholars, especially his view of genocide as a complex process targeting institutions, culture, and economic existence of a group and not necessarily meaning its "immediate destruction".
It is likely that you can sense from how much more I lingered on it that, yes, I feel definition 2 and Lemkin's full design to be the most complete definition of the term.
"Ethnical cleansing" through deportation or coerced eviction, is not an outright part of definition 1, but it is part of definition 2. In my mind, Israel's settlement policies is a case of ethnical cleansing, and thus genocide.
When it comes to the deliberate targeting of the places they told civillians to go, I so find this to be a breach of even definition 1, however (Disclaimer: I only read the headlines of the article). In my mind, this is even more a case of definition 1 than it would have been if they had not told people to go there and then killed the same people or even more civillians in their bombing of the places they came from, specifically because the order of civillians to seek shelter in these places.
I mean...I don't think it matters whose side its on (or the reason), whether its gaza, israel, ukraine or russia...bombing civilian areas is just desperation and disgusting.
When russia does it, its still just as bad if ukraine does it. If gaza does it, its still just as bad if israel does it
If US does it, it doesn't change its the US doing it suddenly makes it good (baghad probably being a good example for me, that was pretty disgusting). Its still just as disgusting and bad
I agree with all of these additions, as pretty much all of those have been used to the point of becoming meaningless.With the seemingly constant changing of the definition of genocide it really has lost a lot of meaning over the years, it also doesn't help that people are constantly throwing the word around like a ball in a playground.
The same goes for Nazi, racist, bigot, dictactor, threat to democracy, weaponized, etc. Like the boy who cried wolf too many times, people just start to ignore it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/04/stakes-high-as-south-africa-brings-claim-of-genocidal-intent-against-israel
Speaking about genocide definitions, this court will be really interesting and important
(and while I am not a fan of a UN-elected structure with Russian and Chinese judges in it, it is not like we have better international justice)
I agree with all of these additions, as pretty much all of those have been used to the point of becoming meaningless.With the seemingly constant changing of the definition of genocide it really has lost a lot of meaning over the years, it also doesn't help that people are constantly throwing the word around like a ball in a playground.
The same goes for Nazi, racist, bigot, dictactor, threat to democracy, weaponized, etc. Like the boy who cried wolf too many times, people just start to ignore it.
Reminds me of the time someone told be they were basically being genocided because people didn't agree with them and that they were being treated like the people in Auschwitz, just because no one agreed with their opinion.
I agree with all of these additions, as pretty much all of those have been used to the point of becoming meaningless.With the seemingly constant changing of the definition of genocide it really has lost a lot of meaning over the years, it also doesn't help that people are constantly throwing the word around like a ball in a playground.
The same goes for Nazi, racist, bigot, dictactor, threat to democracy, weaponized, etc. Like the boy who cried wolf too many times, people just start to ignore it.
Reminds me of the time someone told be they were basically being genocided because people didn't agree with them and that they were being treated like the people in Auschwitz, just because no one agreed with their opinion.
Hey Zultan, why agree with this bullshit? Shitposting not enough?
And the more we talk, the more likely it is (due to Hitler's Law) that someone will try to argue their point by bringing up Mike Godwin...You sound like Hitler, mate.
While no sane person would deny what the government of Israel does in Palestine is genocide,
Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza) and excerpt:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hey Zultan, why agree with this bullshit? Shitposting not enough?Because I'm constantly seeing people use those words to describe people who don't agree with them.
I hope Israel will be firm enough to prevent any UN activity in Israel or Palestine in the future (https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/)Are you making an argument here? Because if you do, it looks awfully like this: a UN organisation employs local teachers. Some of them turn out to be full-on Hamas supporters. Therefore UN supports Hamas (at best unwittingly).
Then say that instead of parroting something that helps bigots in the instances where such descriptions are actually accurate and well-deserved. I don't disagree with your latter statement quoted here, but the original one was parroting a statement laid out for you in an attempt to shield bigotry. In addition you would need to put some effort into being able to distinguish it, and what you had previously done by lumping all these things into the "to be discredited" category was simply making a lazy declaration of confusion by failing to apply rational thought to the given individual cicumstance and instead applying a vulgar opinion that appears to be one promulgated by some of the most revolting people imaginable; no offense intended to you Zultan (https://calvinandhobbes.fandom.com/wiki/Building_character).Hey Zultan, why agree with this bullshit? Shitposting not enough?Because I'm constantly seeing people use those words to describe people who don't agree with them.
I hope Israel will be firm enough to prevent any UN activity in Israel or Palestine in the future (https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/)
UN Watch was founded in 1993 under the chairmanship of Morris B. Abram. Abram served as the Chairman of the United Negro College Fund and President of Brandeis University. Abram was active in community affairs as President of the American Jewish Committee (1963–1968); Chairman of the National Coalition Supporting Soviet Jewry (1983–1988); and Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations (1986–1989).[4]
Abram supported the UN as an institution. In 1999, Abram delivered a speech to the U.S. Congress on the subject of the treatment of Israel by the United Nations in which he said "UN Watch categorically supports the UN as an indispensable institution. The US should pay its past dues to the UN as a matter of national honor and in recognition of the UN's importance. In spite of the UN's flaws, it is inconceivable that the US withhold support from the only truly global organization in such an interdependent world."[12][13]
After Abram died in 2000, David A. Harris, Executive Director of the American Jewish Committee, was elected Chairman of UN Watch.[14]
In 2001, Harris announced that UN Watch had become a wholly owned subsidiary of the American Jewish Committee. According to a press release at the time, “UN Watch was established with the generous assistance of Edgar Bronfman, President of the World Jewish Congress. Eighteen months ago, the American Jewish Committee and the World Jewish Congress reached an agreement, approved by the international board of UN Watch, to transfer full control of the organization to AJC, an agreement that went into effect on January 1, 2001.”[14]
Ian Williams, a journalist covering the UN for many years and former president of the United Nations Correspondents Association, summarizes UN Watch's role:
UN Watch is an organisation whose main purpose is to attack the United Nations in general, and its human rights council in particular, for alleged bias against Israel.
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using an appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports, and omit information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.Oh, that's not good.
UNRWA teacher Abdallah Mehjez does Hamas’ work by urging Gaza civilians not to heed warnings to move out of harm’s way, and instead to serve as human shields. Before UNRWA, this terrorist accomplice worked for the BBC.Which is pretty much verbatim of what Hillel Neuer says in their twitter posthttps://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1744907361402188202 (https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1744907361402188202). However part of the accompanying screenshot of the accused telegram actually says this:
If you feel in direct danger as a result of the occupation raids, you can move to an alternative home or go to the nearest shelter center from your place of residence until the disappearance of the Danger.
I hope Israel will be firm enough to prevent any UN activity in Israel or Palestine in the future (https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/)Are you making an argument here? Because if you do, it looks awfully like this: a UN organisation employs local teachers. Some of them turn out to be full-on Hamas supporters. Therefore UN supports Hamas (at best unwittingly).
And therefore... UN should stay out of Palestine because that's Israel's business? Not intervene? Not criticise? Pull back its humanitarian aid? All of the above?
What's the point you're making?
[...]UNRWA is full of hateful and/or corrupt people who use humanitarian aid money to spread an ideology of hate, fuel the war effort against Israel and make Hamas leaders rich.
[...]UNRWA is full of hateful and/or corrupt people who use humanitarian aid money to spread an ideology of hate, fuel the war effort against Israel and make Hamas leaders rich.
Where is your evidence for this strong claim? Without decent evidence the UN have nothing to acknowledge.
As in all Fields, in UNRWA Gaza the host country curriculum is used and the UNRWA Curriculum Framework helps teachers to promote learning as emphasized and to support the review of materials in relation to key skills and competencies, UN values, and the Palestinian identity. With regards to any new textbooks introduced by the host authority and in addition to the regular reviews, a Rapid Review of textbooks is undertaken; this involves analyzing the textbooks for any issues of neutrality, gender equality, and age-appropriateness. In 2020/2021, education programme in Gaza has been adopting the Self-learning programme (SLP) as a response to the emergency created by COVID19 pandemic. The ultimate purpose is to secure valid, well-developed learning materials accessible during emergencies to ensure continuity of learning and during regular schooling to ensure ongoing support to the learners. Development of the self-learning materials (SLMs) is basically a collaborative involvement of both the field, the HQ, and the neutrality team. At the field level, the professional development and curriculum team worked collaboratively with the subject committees to review the self-learning cards (SLCs) components including the worksheets, the explainer videos and the electronic assessment sheets using the curriculum framework competencies, and the UN values and principles. The cards, then, are exposed to a Rapid Review that is attributed at two levels: field and agency. Once finalized, the card is cleared by the neutrality team and directly uploaded to become visible on UNRWA Digital Platform. In 2020/2021, the number of self-learning materials reviewed using UNRWA framework or Rapid Review was 4,016.
Results are evidence of that, where do funds go if Palestinians stay poor despite an absurd amount of money going mostly through the UN?Rebuilding their houses after they're bombed?
Why Hamas leaders are so rich?
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Why do they have funds for building tunnels and missiles, and procuring weapons?
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
But no I don't have a solid proof of them giving money to Hamas in exchange for some cashback. You are free to think that it is a coincidence. But I think that is a very reasonable assumption based on results and methods and a keen interest in keeping status quo in Palestine>Be Israeli government
In that 103-page document, UNRWA is mentioned a grand total of one time.
From their website, emphasis mine:QuoteAs in all Fields, in UNRWA Gaza the host country curriculum is used and the UNRWA Curriculum Framework helps teachers to promote learning as emphasized and to support the review of materials in relation to key skills and competencies, UN values, and the Palestinian identity. With regards to any new textbooks introduced by the host authority and in addition to the regular reviews, a Rapid Review of textbooks is undertaken; this involves analyzing the textbooks for any issues of neutrality, gender equality, and age-appropriateness. In 2020/2021, education programme in Gaza has been adopting the Self-learning programme (SLP) as a response to the emergency created by COVID19 pandemic. The ultimate purpose is to secure valid, well-developed learning materials accessible during emergencies to ensure continuity of learning and during regular schooling to ensure ongoing support to the learners. Development of the self-learning materials (SLMs) is basically a collaborative involvement of both the field, the HQ, and the neutrality team. At the field level, the professional development and curriculum team worked collaboratively with the subject committees to review the self-learning cards (SLCs) components including the worksheets, the explainer videos and the electronic assessment sheets using the curriculum framework competencies, and the UN values and principles. The cards, then, are exposed to a Rapid Review that is attributed at two levels: field and agency. Once finalized, the card is cleared by the neutrality team and directly uploaded to become visible on UNRWA Digital Platform. In 2020/2021, the number of self-learning materials reviewed using UNRWA framework or Rapid Review was 4,016.
The textbooks aren’t UNRWA’s fault, and they work to make sure the textbooks are appropriate.
Try again, son.
GENEVA, Nov 10 (Reuters) - More than 100 United Nations employees have been killed since the Israel-Hamas war began in Gaza, the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency (UNRWA) said on Friday, making it the deadliest conflict ever for the U.N. in such a short period of time.These aid workers killed while queuing for bread can no longer defend themselves (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-mourns-record-death-toll-war-with-over-100-employees-killed-gaza-2023-11-10/)
Some were killed queuing for bread; others died along with their families in their homes, UNRWA told Reuters, as Israel's devastating aerial and ground war against Hamas in densely populated Gaza continued in response to the Oct. 7 cross-border assault on Israeli communities by the Islamist group.
"Devastated. Over 100 UNRWA colleagues confirmed killed in 1 month. Parents, teachers, nurses, doctors, support staff. UNRWA is mourning, Palestinians mourning, Israelis mourning," Philippe Lazzarini said on social media platform X. The agency later said it was mourning 101 colleagues.
"They represent what is happening to the people of Gaza. They happen to work for the UN," said Juliette Touma, Director of Communications at UNRWA. "They and every other civilian in the Gaza Strip...should never have been killed."
The US and UK air forces, with support from Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and Bahrein have conducted airstrikes on Houthi positions in Jemen, to protect commercial ships from Houthi attacks.Russia already calling a UN security council meeting about the yemen strikes, despite abstaining from the vote by the UN security council to demand immediate end to Houthi naval strikes
Seems things are escalating, hope peace in the end can prevail.Saudis already back to asking UK and USA to chill, Houthis saying they will launch a massive retaliation, the rubicon has been crossed so only time will tell
Strange times for all these nations to cause conflict during a huge post-covid economic recovery. Its USUALLY (not always) small conflicts due to economic issues...you know...war economy and all. But most economies are doing better than during the lockdowns.
A dumb theory, these fascists nations want biden to look bad to get their "man" trump back in charge...but like I said, dumb theory but who knows.
Ehh, not sure how much of a "rubicon" it is. The US has bombed the houthi rebels before, and they survived it just fine, as they will survive this. Its unlikely anyone else is going to get involved to help them destroy international trade, so its not like this particular fight is in real danger of spreading.Seems things are escalating, hope peace in the end can prevail.Saudis already back to asking UK and USA to chill, Houthis saying they will launch a massive retaliation, the rubicon has been crossed so only time will tell
Strange times for all these nations to cause conflict during a huge post-covid economic recovery. Its USUALLY (not always) small conflicts due to economic issues...you know...war economy and all. But most economies are doing better than during the lockdowns.
A dumb theory, these fascists nations want biden to look bad to get their "man" trump back in charge...but like I said, dumb theory but who knows.
Ehh, not sure how much of a "rubicon" it is.When you jump feet first into a puddle you're hoping it's just skin deep but pack wellingtons just in case you're up to your neck in water
The US has bombed the houthi rebels before, and they survived it just fine, as they will survive this. Its unlikely anyone else is going to get involved to help them destroy international trade, so its not like this particular fight is in real danger of spreading.Doesn't have to be to cause massive damage to saudis
Similarly I'm highly skeptical their "massive retaliation" is going to actually matter or be significant.
“The Saudis have a lot of sophisticated air defense equipment. Given their general conduct of operations in Yemen, it is highly unlikely that their soldiers know how to use it,” Watling said. He added that the kingdom’s forces have “low readiness, low competence, and are largely inattentive.”From 2019. Saudis got nice kit but the army is still reliant on Western advisors to really function
“So if you’re a battery commander protecting against an oilfield which you never believed was going to come under attack, how carefully are you watching your radar? I’d be surprised if they’d even turned their radar on.”
That of course doesn't mean that there won't be any negative consequences, bombing them is likely to increase their domestic approval rating, which means that there is a good chance that they come out of this stronger then they went in.Funnily enough, I would argue that's the one thing that won't change. Houthis attacking ships might increase their popularity, but air strikes on radar sites, airfields and drone bases conducted at night using precision munitions are about as optimal as you can get for minimal civilian casualty risk without just calling the local police up for a friendly chat. Especially since you're unlikely to change the opinions of those relatives of the 15,000 dead civilians (https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/the-war-on-yemens-civilians/), 7,000 of which were from air strikes done with UK technical guidance & weapons (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/why-saudi-arabia-in-yemen-what-does-it-mean-for-britain), whilst Houthis themselves are known for indiscriminately shelling/bombarding civilian areas (https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/20/yemen-houthis-shell-civilians-southern-city).
Heh, quotation marks in proper places matter.To add, Iraqi gov telling USA to leave... "If you'd like to, because we'd like you to leave" like politely trying to shoo away a guest who's overstayed their welcome but is armed to the teeth (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iraq-seeks-quick-exit-us-forces-no-deadline-set-pm-says-2024-01-10/). American response "no lol"
Also, https://twitter.com/JokermanIntel/status/1747003091873071571 - we may need to rename this thread into something like the Middle Eastern War 2024 edition.
Heh, quotation marks in proper places matter.
Also, https://twitter.com/JokermanIntel/status/1747003091873071571 - we may need to rename this thread into something like the Middle Eastern War 2024 edition.
Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) claimed responsibility for an attack on what it called an Israeli spy base in Iraq as large explosions were reported in the city of Erbil on Tuesday morning.
[...]
White House national security council spokesperson Adrienne Watson. “No US personnel or facilities were targeted."
[...]
Washington is not reporting any injuries or damage to infrastructure at any American bases, according to the defense official.
Seems like this place is starting to turn into a generic war thread, guess Strongpoint was right that we might need a generic war thread.
Fortune has nothing to do with it. When you don't punish evil it grows stronger and bolder. World decided to ignore the massacre in Syria and other similar events to prevent "escalation" and now we reap the results.We are the good guys, they are the bad guys. Whatever we do must be good, because we're good, and whatever you do to them can't be bad, because they're the bad guys. We need to punish the bad guys, otherwise the bad guys will win. So when we blow up Libya that's good, because we punished the bad guys. But now Libya has open air slave markets and LOADS of bad guys, but I don't understand how? I thought we killed the bad guys, so how come there are more bad guys than before?
Even this war in Gaza and all the deaths are the result of... Israel tolerating evil. They should have started destroying Hamas a decade ago, price would be far smaller. For everyone, including Palestinians.
To carry on your analogy, one wonders why blowing shit up is the most common treatment for EvilTM when there is ample evidence it doesn’t really work that well.
Just remember that if a world war starts never side with Germany since they've lost both the previous ones, and they might be going for a third loss, gotta keep that streak going!
Yeah, but the last couple times the sun would never set on their empire. These days, a mid-sized cloud is all it takes to hide their dominion.Britain in 19th century: doom music
Slippers and PJs, the new Hamas uniform. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126)bruh
...hmmm. I picked Italy in that sweepstake. So where does that leave me?Start on one side then flip to another partway through the war?
Slippers and PJs, the new Hamas uniform. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126)bruh
in west bank
>we must destroy hamas who control gaza
>air strike civilians in west bank
I'll tell you more, it is very likely that Israel will be "destroying Hamas" not only in the West Bank but also in Lebanon, Syria and other places.>We will destroy Hamas everywhere
Israel is in a war mode and will stay there until Israeli society will feel relatively safe. For years, if necessary. It will kill whoever they see as a threat everywhere. And yes, there will be cases of misidentification and even callous indifference.I too kill everyone I think could be a threat to me
Destroying Hamas is a minimum goal and Hamas is most definitely present in the West Bank and Lebanon. And Hamas have minor militant groups that are their allies. Even if that strike, almost certainly, killed randoms, it is just an episode in the war against Hamas and their allies. Some can believe it is a mistake Israel won't admit, others - an excuse for the intentional murder of random Palestinians...Bruh this aint an episode this is season ten of "we targeted civilians again." Otherwise we got a long pattern of snipers who mistakenly target civilians, air force controllers who mistakenly target churches, officers who mistakenly tell civilians to flee into buildings they drop 2,000 lb bombs on, soldiers who mistakenly shoot civilians in the head, soldiers who mistakenly shoot israelis because they think they're palestinians et cetera et cetera
Also, my previous message is not about the morality of Israeli actions but about their motivation. I am confident that Israel won't stop until they feel relatively safe or until they are militarily defeated. Some protests in faraway countries, boycotts or even sanctions won't change that.It's one of those things that's a description but not an explanation. You can't just have a rogue nuclear armed state flagrantly violating basic moral and legal principles like people should be able to exist without fearing someone murdering them in a war of conquest
The decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he declared during the primetime appearance at the Kirya military base in Tel Aviv, are “not about the absence of a state, a Palestinian state, but rather about the existence of a state, a Jewish state.Realistically all that needs to change is just the USA dropping its support for Israel and allowing the UN to pass a binding resolution
“All territory we evacuate, we get terror, terrible terror against us,” he said, citing Gaza, southern Lebanon and parts of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Therefore, “in any future arrangement, or in the absence of an arrangement,” he said, Israel must maintain “security control” of all territory west of the Jordan River — meaning, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. “That is a vital condition.”
He acknowledged that this “contradicts the idea of sovereignty [for the Palestinians]. What can you do? I tell this truth to our American friends.”
War of conquest? Wait a minute... Isn't all of Palestine is already occupied and neither Gaza nor the West Bank have political autonomy?Russian invasion of Ukraine isn't a war of conquest because they already occupied Crimea and Donbas then
It's just a circular logic of "our war crimes justify continued war crimes." Israeli governments support Hamas. Hamas stops Palestinians in Gaza from governing themselves. This divides them from Palestinians in the West bank. End result; neither side can resist land annexations and cleansing. Can't think of a scenario more dangerous to the zionist project than friendly Israeli-Palestinian relations where rule of law & diplomatic relations and not military force set the stage. Like fuck man, how am I supposed to reconcile the cognitive dissonance between palestinians must be punished collectively (war crime) over a Hamas they didn't support, whilst I am supposed to support the government coalition with the Jewish Power party that openly endorses racism and terrorism? White Power parties aren't even legal to have in most European countriesQuote from: https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1846727/israel-real-estate-company-gaza-beach-sptA real estate company has swooped in on a stretch of beachfront in Gaza in a bid to build luxury homes on land reduced to rubble. Harey Zahav, a leading real estate company in Israel, is advertising building beach homes in Gush Katif, as war rages on between Israel and Hamas.
The region, inside Gaza, was part of 17 Israeli settlements inside the strip until August 2005 when the Israeli army forcibly removed Jewish residents from their homes after Israel "unilaterally disengaged" from the region. In a string of posts to Harey Zahav's Instagram account, the company shares its intentions to build the condos on the beachfront, with videos showing workers talking about plans on-site, as well as other graphics showing what appear to be housing layout and even the opportunity to buy at presale.
"We at Harey Zahav are working to prepare the ground for a return to Gush Katif," a translation seen by Express.co.uk reads. "A number of our employers have started working on the reclamation of the area, the removal of waste and the expulsion of invaders."
Multiple posts on social media appear to show that the company is in Gaza and already carrying out work.
One video shows Shalom Warmstein, described as a 'business associate' on Harey Zahav's website, dressed in military fatigues and allegedly in Gaza.
To the sound of construction works in the background, he says: "What's up, wow, I miss you. We are here in the heart of Gaza doing what we do. Good luck to you, I love you, bye bye," according to translation software used by Express.co.uk.
In another post, a CAT excavator can be seen cleaning the ground, with a vast ocean in the background.
A separate image shows three men holding a yellow and blue Israel flag that reads: "Another brick is being built — we will remember and come back."
More detailed real estate plans show a graphic of the Gaza Strip with dots pointing towards proposed units and their planned locations, with new names for settlements, and a caption that reads: "Now at presale prices."
It is unclear if Harey Zahav has started accepting payments for its properties. The company did not respond to a request for comment.
Karim Ali, international coordinator and co-founder of paracycling team the Gaza Sunbirds, told Express.co.uk that the activities "didn't surprise" him.
He said: "We were seeing early designs coming out from these agencies, and ultimately speaking, I think this just prequalifies what we've been saying along, that this war has nothing to do with Hamas or what happened on October 7. It's being motivated by profits, as war often is. It is a war of conquest.
"These houses that are being built, in my opinion, are nothing short of colonial settlements being built on stolen land — not land from Palestine but land from Palestinians.
"It's speaking about what is to come, and I think the world should treat this as a late-stage warning signal of the true extent of their horrible intent for Gaza."Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees
this
is
genocide
That Netanyahu quote above is factually true. There are many bad things to quote from Netanyahu but this isn't one. As soon as Palestinians get any partial autonomy they use it to... attack Israel with terror. More autonomy results only in more terror. Isn't it just true? Isn't it a natural response to this is to take more (or all) of that autonomy away? Until... Until something change in the mentality of Palestinians"You are stealing my house"
Also, I totally expect that Israel will just say FU to a binding USCN resolution that will demand their surrender in a winning war.It's not surrender mate people just want the ethnic cleansing to stop -_-
Who will make them obey? American invasion? Also, I'd want to see that.1. Breh no one is suggesting turning Israel into a vassal state of the USA
I am eagerly awaiting the collapse of the UN. Israel leaving it would be a good start.I look forward to a world in which the weak should fear the strong, and every time the French argue with us over scallop fishing rights we pre-emptively nuclear bomb Belgium to send a message. And if the USA tells us we're out of line, we join the ranks of free nations who understand how the world works, like Iran and North Korea, who know that the United Nations is fucking lame and we should just be allowed to launch crusades wherever we want, because crusades were cool and law is cringe
Do you actually believe there's no Hamas in the West Bank? You're gonna have to back that up with something.Hey scriver can you prove to me you're not Hamas?
As for "war of conquest"... No, mate. Hamas started this war. If it ends with a reoccupied Gaza, sure. Until then, keep a lid om that ridiculous propaganda.
In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.
“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”
The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, which found Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope people would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration, which is facing global criticism and isolation for vetoing a UN security council vote for a ceasefire on Friday.
Russian invasion of Ukraine isn't a war of conquest because they already occupied Crimea and Donbas thenNo-no-no. Ukrainians didn't claim full and total occupation of all of Ukraine like (pro-)Palestinians claimed about Gaza and West Bank. I was attacked on this very forum for claiming that Gaza was a de-facto independent country.
Cos nothing says "WE ARE FIGHTING A WAR FOR SURVIVAL" than air striking civilians in a refugee camp or wiping out a block of civilians where you told them to go and then buildingTo my knowledge, Israel never claimed that not a single bomb would fall on the areas they say are safer for civilians. They never promised - hey, Hamas, you can do whatever you want in those areas. If I am wrong, please provide me with a link.
"You are stealing my house"Oh, I remember this one and what it caused...
"Why you mad though?"
"You are stealing my house"
"Okay but why don't we also take away your autonomy until your attitude improves"
And in other news, one fifth of Israeli soldiers killed in this offensive have been killed by Israeli soldiers.It is not that high, actually. WW2 average is estimated around 10-15%. American losses in Vietnam are around the same. With one side being way stronger than the other this rate will naturally go up.
I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
scriver, Strongpoint has argued that “partial ethnic cleansing” isn’t genocide, in the face of Israeli government ministers saying they want the Palestinians because Israelis will do better with the land, and the blockade.Because it isn't. Words have meanings. It is a different, lesser crime. Deportations, (not done in a way to cause mass deaths in transit or on arrival), are not genocides. Not that Israel has started any deportations yet even if Bibi and friends said a few times that they intend to "motivate" Palestinians to move to other countries.
I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
scriver, Strongpoint has argued that “partial ethnic cleansing” isn’t genocide, in the face of Israeli government ministers saying they want the Palestinians because Israelis will do better with the land, and the blockade.
Also, Hamas didn’t “start this”, it’s a conflict that’s been going on for decades and decades, Israel has just decided to do what they usually do in response to Hamas attacks harder and longer.
Did Israel stop Hamas the last time they dropped bombs on Gaza? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that?
Regardless, LW wasn’t claiming there was no Hamas in West Bank, he was calling into question Israel’s stated goal of destroying Hamas, because they dropped, and continue to drop, bombs on civilians who have nothing to do with militants, Hamas or otherwise.
So are we operating on a falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus basis here? Because he was wrong/erroneous/lying in one thing that everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant?
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
No, LW was literally claiming there is no hamas in the West Bank, and he's done it previously in this thread as well.Okay let's look where I claimed that. Here are every single instance I mention West Bank, Hamas, or Hamas not being in an area
Slippers and PJs, the new Hamas uniform. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126)bruh
in west bank
>we must destroy hamas who control gaza
>air strike civilians in west bank
The BBC has spoken to relatives of the men killed, witnesses in the area at the time, and a paramedic at the scene. All provided strong evidence that the men were not members of armed militant groups, and that no clashes with Israeli forces were taking place in the location at the time.
Khalid al-Ahmad, the first paramedic to arrive that morning, is convinced the men were doing nothing wrong.
"One of them was wearing slippers and pyjamas," he told the BBC. "Don't you think that someone who wants to resist [the Israeli occupation] would at least wear proper shoes?"
The IDF directed us to a statement it released at the time, which said that "during the operation, an aircraft struck a terrorist squad that hurled explosives at the forces operating in the area".
Footage from both the IDF and a nearby CCTV camera does not show any clear evidence of confrontations with Palestinians in al-Shuhada at the time of the strike.
The four brothers - Alaa, Hazza, Ahmad, and Rami Darweesh - were aged between 22 and 29 years old. They were Palestinian emigrants who had returned from Jordan a few years earlier with their mother and five siblings.
They had Israeli permits, allowing them to cross into Israel for agricultural work each day. These permits are often difficult to obtain and are rapidly withdrawn from anyone Israel sees as a security threat - or as linked to someone who is.
The three men killed with them were members of their extended family.
Permits for two of the brothers, seen by the BBC, were issued in September 2023 and valid for several months. The borders with Israel have been closed to Palestinian workers since the Hamas attacks in October.
The paramedic, Khalid al-Ahmad, said that after 20 years working in Jenin, he was used to scanning trauma sites for weapons or explosives, as a basic safety routine.
"I would tell you if there were weapons there," he said. "Honestly, these were civilians. There was nothing relating to the resistance - no bullets, no weapons. And there was no Israeli presence at all."
Armed Palestinian groups - usually quick to claim any members killed by Israeli forces - have been silent about these seven men, with no statement describing any of them as "martyrs" for their cause.
Night-vision drone footage provided by the IDF shows small flashes followed by an explosion as vehicles pass along the road - a heat pattern that could be produced by a petrol bomb. The video does not have a date-stamp or time-stamp.
The army also provided similar footage of its air strike on the location - but the two pieces of video are cut and edited together, making it impossible to tell how much time passed between them.
We asked the IDF to clarify the timings of both events. It replied that it would not be providing any more comment or information.
The timing is important, because of the circumstances needed under international law to justify using lethal force.
The UN's human rights body described the situation in the West Bank at the end of last year as "alarming and urgent".
"Israeli forces have increasingly used military tactics and weapons in law enforcement operations," a statement from its spokesperson said in November. "Law enforcement is governed by international human rights law, which prohibits the intentional use of lethal force except when strictly necessary to protect life."
Ibtesam Asous, the men's mother, said she had seen a change in the methods used by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October.
"They are acting just as they used to," she said. "The only thing that changed is that, before, the army would shoot a guy in his leg. But now it's bigger - now they are bombing with rockets and killing as many people as they can."
According to UN figures, last year was the bloodiest on record in the West Bank: 492 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces - 300 of them since the Hamas attacks in October, including 80 children.
Almost all were killed with live ammunition.
Yeah see, sorry for the confusion again. Although I wrote "There is no Hamas in Israeli occupied West Bank; there is no Hamas gov in West Bank at all." I meant to write "the Israeli government in its merciful competence allow Hamas to proliferate under military supervision, except wherever the Palestinian government exists, because in those places not even a single molecule of Hamas exists."Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/28/end-unlawful-killings-in-occupied-west-bank-un-tells-israel-2The United Nations has called on Israel to end “unlawful killings” and settler violence in the occupied West Bank, warning of a rapidly deteriorating human rights situation during intensified Israeli raids.
In a report published on Thursday, the UN Human Rights Office detailed a “sharp increase” in air strikes and military incursions into densely populated refugee camps, resulting in deaths, injuries and widespread damage to civilian infrastructure in the occupied territory.
“The use of military tactics means and weapons in law enforcement contexts, the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force, and the enforcement of broad, arbitrary and discriminatory movement restrictions that affect Palestinians are extremely troubling,” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk said in a statement.
Since then, the UN has verified the deaths of at least 300 Palestinians in the West Bank, including 79 children, the report said. Of these, 291 were killed by Israeli forces, eight by settlers and one was killed by either soldiers or settlers.
Nearly 4,800 Palestinians have been arrested since the war on Gaza began.
Since October 7, the UN has documented a “sharp rise in settler attacks”, including “shootings, burning of homes and vehicles, and uprooting of trees”.
There is no Hamas in Israeli occupied West Bank; there is no Hamas gov in West Bank at all. Yet the IDF continues to show it's brave stance in opposing military grade olive trees and protecting Israeli settlers who are just defending Israel from a potential invasion by invading Palestinian houses. And why not air strike a refugee camp. I can't think of any reasons not too -_-
This whole "Palestinians are all nazis and we must denazify them" really falls apart when you're just taking their land. Got more in common with conquistadors civilising the natives and teaching them to celebrate their own conquest
Here's where I foolishly made the mistake of reviewing the evidence and not concluding the churches weren't full of Hamas. I now know the Pope is a liar and probably the antichrist too. I should have written "it now falls on dead Christians to prove there is literally no Hamas inside their church or in the west bank, where there is literally no Hamas too."Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is what his church looks like now. The world's 3rd oldest church. The common evangelical W
The archbishop in that 2014 interview has reportedly survived this bombing though I haven't found any interviews with him post-bombing. Maybe he's still recovering or cat's got his tongue. This is what his church had to say:Quote from: https://en.jerusalem-patriarchate.info/blog/2023/10/20/the-patriarchate-of-jerusalem-condemns-israeli-airstrikes-targeting-humanitarian-institutions-in-gaza/The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem expresses its strongest condemnation of the Israeli airstrike that have struck its church compound in the city of Gaza.
The Patriarchate emphasizes that targeting churches and their institutions, along with the shelters they provide to protect innocent citizens, especially children and women who have lost their homes due to Israeli airstrikes on residential areas over the past thirteen days, constitutes a war crime that cannot be ignored.
Despite the evident targeting of the facilities and shelters of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and other churches – including the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem Hospital, other schools, and social institutions – the Patriarchate, along with the other churches, remain committed to fulfilling its religious and moral duty in providing assistance, support, and refuge to those in need, amidst continuous Israeli demands to evacuate these institutions of civilians and the pressures exerted on the churches in this regard.
The Patriarchate stresses that it will not abandon its religious and humanitarian duty, rooted in its Christian values, to provide all that is necessary in times of war and peace alike.
The IDF has not reported any evidence or reasoning as to why they did this. So it once again falls upon the dead Christians to prove they weren't terrorists supporting Hamas
This is not to be confused with Latin Catholic ChurchQuote from: https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/22-december/news/world/pope-condemns-assault-on-gaza-church-after-idf-snipers-kill-two-womenOn Saturday, Vatican News reported that the IDF had entered the compound, shooting at anyone leaving the church. “The victims are an elderly woman and her daughter who rushed out of the building to rescue her mother. Israel has justified the attack, claiming the presence of a missile launcher in the parish,” it reported.
In a statement quoted by the BBC on Sunday, the IDF said: “During the dialogue between the IDF and representatives of the community, no reports of a hit on the church, nor civilians being injured or killed, were raised. A review of the IDF’s operational findings support this.”
At the Angelus on Sunday, Pope Francis condemned the attack on the compound, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns . . . Some say, ‘This is terrorism. This is war.’ Yes, it is war. It is terrorism.”
Writing on social media on Saturday, Hammam Farah, a psychotherapist based in Canada, described the two women as “family friends”. They had been walking to the convent to use the only bathroom, he wrote. “Their bodies remain strewn across the church courtyard. . . The Christian community in Gaza is on the verge of extinction.” His own family members remained in the compound.
According to the Patriarchate, earlier in the morning “a rocket from an IDF tank targeted the convent.” The building’s generator — its only source of electricity — and “fuel resources” had been destroyed. “The house was damaged by the resulting explosion and massive fire. Two more rockets, fired by an IDF tank, targeted the same Convent and rendered the home uninhabitable. The 54 disabled persons are currently displaced and without access to the respirators that some of them need to survive.”
The statement continued that, on Friday night, three people had been wounded inside the church compound as the result of “heavy bombing” in the area. Solar panels and water tanks — “indispensable for the survival of the community” — had been destroyed. The Patriarchate was “at a loss to comprehend how such an attack could be carried out, even more so as the whole Church prepares for Christmas”.Quote from: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/CF/Mapping2003-2015/Factsheet9-EN.pdfn addition, under the ICC Rome Statute, in non-international armed conflicts, it is war crime to intentionally direct attacks against protected objects, namely buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected. To benefit from this protection from all forms of attack, the protected objects must not be used by a party to a conflict for acts harmful to the enemy.I'm sure the Pope is just lying though and it is both moral and productive to bomb churches because they're harbouring terrorists until they prove they're not. And I may as well trust police who swear the black man they just killed reached for a gun. Can't wait for the next episode of "we didn't kill you, Hamas did. But if we did kill you, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, you can't prove you didn't have a rocket launcher."
Just glad the IDF no longer has to fear ancient churches and disabled refugees threatening their operations. Maybe the sniper should target himself the next time he guns down a family.
You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66682821) and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published reportI know here I was referring to a linked article where there was no Hamas presence and the IDF were filmed shooting an unarmed civilian in the back of the head whilst he fled for his life, but I erred; I didn't make it clearer I was actually saying there is literally no Hamas presence in the west bank.
I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.I've been admonished, and rightfully so. I apologise for dishonestly engaging with everyone by making carefully cited arguments. I should have stooped to the levels of the honest and upright people I was debating with. Instead of having sources for everything and carefully wording my arguments making it absolutely clear that I was disturbed the investigations showed civilians being deliberately targeted, I should have been defending you scriver, because I also forgot to say "scriver is literally not hamas." And I know you're one of the good ones, who would never ask someone to defend a claim they never made. But you should be careful; if someone asked me to prove you're not Hamas... All I'm saying is it's not what I'd have to defend, it's what I'd have the evidence to believe. And I don't have any evidence to believe you're not secretly Hamas, it's just good faith I believe you're a fine dancer
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
Really, I should have just done the morally brave thing and claim the UNRWA support Hamas without evidence[...]UNRWA is full of hateful and/or corrupt people who use humanitarian aid money to spread an ideology of hate, fuel the war effort against Israel and make Hamas leaders rich.
Where is your evidence for this strong claim? Without decent evidence the UN have nothing to acknowledge.
If they were firing rockets from churches in 2014 what makes you think they wouldn't be doing it now?I should have done the hard work to claim rockets were fired from churches without evidence
journalist stuff - I am too lazy to go through that. Israel, most likely, eliminated some hostileI should have really just thought about my life and claimed all the journalists the IDF killed were propagandists and militants without evidencepropagondistsjournalists on purpose (not that there is reliable evidence of that), but most are just victims of war or even combatants. Palestinians actively use the status of journalists in their war tactics and many of those are just not journalists at all. Foreign journalists just LOVE that place, and when there are many people of a certain category in a dangerous place, a high number of them will die.
And actions of Palestinians (no, not HAMAS, civilians actively participated in the 7th October's "fun") go beyond cold terrorism. I think calling them terrorists is generous. Monsters or maniacs fit way better. They murdered not to induce fear and force Israelis to do something. They murdered with pure sadistic glee, with genocidal intention, they did it because they enjoyed the process. They also screamed Allahu Akbar while doing so sincerely believing that they are doing something holyWHY DIDN'T I JUST CLAIM Palestinian civilians participated in the 7th of October terrorist attack without evidence
This de facto country received serious international support from the West (various charities that did help HAMAS) and from Iran\Russia\Qatar\etc who provided more direct support to boost their military strength.I should have just claimed the West and various charities helped Hamas without evidence
In the end, by 2023, Gaza was stronger militarily than most other countries of a similar size. If you pit the army of Gaza against the army of Latvia - Latvians would be steamrolled.
Even if I accept the claim that Israel is just randomly detaining all men of fighting age (but then why we haven't seen such photos from the beginning?) it is a justified military tactic in a hostile urban environment - detain all men who may be combatants until proven otherwise. And those men aren't beaten, aren't tortured, aren't raped. Like, I dunno, Ukrainians on occupied territories. But somehow this mild, by standards of war, treatment is something "impossible to tolerate".That I should just support treating everyone as combatants until proven otherwise and that they should pay the consequences for sharing the same race as terrorists... I'm so ashamed of the way I have acted
Just by laws of probability, many of those partially naked men, directly or indirectly participated in an act of utter barbarity on Oct 7th and face the consequences of their EVIL actions. And yes, not all of them participated in it but it is how social species work - if part of your "tribe" does stuff, you'll face consequences, too.
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
Yes, i daid that. Because of how he responded to me. Your point?
Guys, are you seriously trying to counter my words by giving links to protests that were much smaller in scale? OK, I should have been more precise with my wording but do you really think I am stupid enough to think that a city of the size of London with such a diverse population didn't produce some protests for nearly everything?
Now the "It is because the British government is pro-Israeli" part. It is a more valid explanation but the problem with this assumption is that Britain is not the only country with that kind of protests and it doesn't seem to be directly proportional to the level of support to Israel.
___________
Now the children part... Using Al Jazeera as a news source for this war is a questionable idea. They take their numbers directly from the Gazan Health Ministry.
Also, a lot of those children may actually be combatants. We are talking about the side which is not shy of using child soldiers.
And, as I stated it earlier, considering HAMAS human shield tactics, the density of population, and the intensity of the war - Those numbers are very low. It is a pity that innocents die in wars but it is beyond simplistic to call for a ceasefire based only on that.
(looking at how it works in Gaza I feel that Ukraine is idiotic in informational warfare, we should also use estimates we can't prove as proven numbers and "count" victims instantly. I am already seeing tons of "there are more children killed in Gaza in a month than in two years of Ukrainian war" takes and this is a direct result of our idiocy.)
PPE: never mind, LW has more stamina for nonsense than I do apparently.I don't get why that of all things was the most important thing for scriver to pick up on either. It's like the areas where Israel told civilians to go, and then dropped 2,000 lb bombs on, or the striking of refugee convoys... That all happened in gaza, where there IS an extensive network of hamas tunnels, hamas fighters, hamas weapons.
Actual edit: you forgot the post in which he said a lot of the children killed in Gaza might be soldiers without evidence too:Jesus, completely skimmed that. But if I ended up posting every hot take it'd hit the character limit -_-Guys, are you seriously trying to counter my words by giving links to protests that were much smaller in scale? OK, I should have been more precise with my wording but do you really think I am stupid enough to think that a city of the size of London with such a diverse population didn't produce some protests for nearly everything?
Now the "It is because the British government is pro-Israeli" part. It is a more valid explanation but the problem with this assumption is that Britain is not the only country with that kind of protests and it doesn't seem to be directly proportional to the level of support to Israel.
___________
Now the children part... Using Al Jazeera as a news source for this war is a questionable idea. They take their numbers directly from the Gazan Health Ministry.
Also, a lot of those children may actually be combatants. We are talking about the side which is not shy of using child soldiers.
And, as I stated it earlier, considering HAMAS human shield tactics, the density of population, and the intensity of the war - Those numbers are very low. It is a pity that innocents die in wars but it is beyond simplistic to call for a ceasefire based only on that.
(looking at how it works in Gaza I feel that Ukraine is idiotic in informational warfare, we should also use estimates we can't prove as proven numbers and "count" victims instantly. I am already seeing tons of "there are more children killed in Gaza in a month than in two years of Ukrainian war" takes and this is a direct result of our idiocy.)
But I suppose you made your point without that.
It cannot be understated just how much damage I think this has done to the human race, Palestinian, Israeli, Arab, Jew, Christian, Muslim Atheist or cosmopolitan. Even from the most ardently indifferent to Palestinian objectives and the most fervently nationalistic Israeli perspective, I cannot help but look at this and think "how does any of this benefit Israel?"QuoteSo what will this war buy with the blood of the all dead? Not an end to the conflict but a period of calm for Israelis that will end again, necessarily, because the underlying conflict still exists. Politically, perhaps, it will guarantee that the febrile rightwing coalition of Netanyahu lasts another year or longer with him at its helm.It's amusing that this article from 2014 talking about Netanyahu riding this war with no win state to another year in power (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/gaza-war-futile-neither-side-can-win) and this article from 2023 describing the exact same thing with the exact same person (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/netanyahu-putting-political-future-ahead-good-israel-rcna130000) shows how little has changed with Netanyahu at the helm.
And it will end as the last two Gazan conflicts have ended. Egypt, a historic broker of ceasefires in Gaza, will calculate a point when Hamas has been hurt enough and public opinion over its inaction is beginning to become damaging. It will step in with a deal that will see it talk once again, albeit in a limited fashion, to Israel – and at last to regulate a situation it does not want to see spiral out of control.
Then this stupidest of wars will stop.
Israel's tanks will pull back to their bases. The Gazan rocket teams will lick their wounds, rebuild their arsenals in the metal shops and commission new murals for the walls to sanctify their fallen dead in the public memory.
And the civilian dead will stay dead, discarded pieces in a pointless game of chess.QuoteGiven his weak political position and the widespread expectation that he could be sidelined once the fighting ends in Gaza, they said, Netanyahu has a strong motive to prolong the military offensive.
“He has every incentive to keep the war going, to ensure his political survival,” one U.S. lawmaker who asked not to be named told NBC News.
At the same time, Israel is increasingly isolated internationally as the Palestinian death toll in the conflict has reached 18,700, with 70% of them women and children, according to Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry. The vast majority of the territory's 2.2 million people are displaced, and half of them are estimated to face starvation, according to the U.N.
A current Israeli official said that Netanyahu is pivoting to the right as the domestic political cost of his government’s failure to prevent the Oct. 7 attack looms. The attack, which resulted in the deaths of 1,200 people and the kidnapping of about 240, was the worst terrorist strike in Israeli history.
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
Yes, i daid that. Because of how he responded to me. Your point?
You’re wrong about how you’re interpeting what LW is saying, as previously stated.
I mean, we can go around in circles arguing about it if you want, or you can just read the last three posts or so on a loop for a bit until you feel it’s enough.
PPE: never mind, LW has more stamina for nonsense than I do apparently.
The civilian proportion of deaths is unprecedented, with 61% being civilians.
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.This is exactly the way to react to Gish Gallop. No one stops LW from presenting a few strong arguments and defending them.
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.Such is life in the bone zone. It's kinda funny how after all this time Strongpoint still only has one response: you're all just israel haters. Human rights watch, Palestinians, Western academics, Orthodox Jews, Western Jews, Associated Press, the fucking United Nations, everyone's all just Israel haters.
This is the second time you’ve also been too much of a coward too outright call someone an anti-Semite, Strongpoint.
It doesn’t matter that they’re Jews, it doesn’t even matter that they’re Israeli, what matters is that civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas are being killed up and down Gaza, in refugee camps and hospitals and IDF-designated safe areas. They’e even being killed outside of Gaza, which is where the supposed war goals are.
You’ve made unsupported ridiculous claim after unsupported ridiculous claim after unsupported ridiculous claim for the last four months, and you have the audacity to suggest LW citing his positions with evidence is worthy of ridicule? Get a grip son.
And yep, it is worth ridicule when someone claims something as ridiculous as that there is no precedent of a war with 61%+ civilian casualties.Yeah Genghis Khan would agree, that boy was good at war.
Levy: In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza... The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy. The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”Quote from: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-studyIn the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.
“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”
The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, which found Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope people would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration, which is facing global criticism and isolation for vetoing a UN security council vote for a ceasefire on Friday.
And in other news, one fifth of Israeli soldiers killed in this offensive have been killed by Israeli soldiers (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nearly-15-israeli-soldiers-killed-gaza-died-due-friendly-fire-accident-rcna129285).
Never has there been a finer mob of well-disciplined soldiers
It is saying something that contradicts basic knowledge about the topic (modern warfare)
just because he needs to fit his narrative of Israel being the worst. It is what creationists and flat-earthers do.Proof?
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
You're having fantasy arguments with people who only exist inside your own head.
Nobody is saying Israel is the worst, they’re saying what Israel is doing is wholly unreasonable, and providing evidence thereof. Even retired military leaders on the Israeli war council say destroying Hamas isn’t the goal of this conflict. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68035744)
What he’s doing isn’t Gish gallop because it’s all relevant to the current discussion. All the things he points out are facts, supported by the links he provided. Gosh gallop is when false or irrelevant information is provided as evidence.And it's easy too. Don't need to justify shit if you just act like a Taylor Swift fan. "Nah they don't dislike her songs, they just jealous"
Just because you can’t be bothered engaging with it doesn’t make it Gish gallop. Just because you’re happy providing zero evidence of your positions does not mean everybody is, like when you pick one thing out of the “Gish gallop” and provide zero evidence for why it’s wrong.
I don’t understand why you keep trying to insinuate people are anti-Semites when the reason the IDF and Israeli government are being called evil isn’t because they’re Israeli, or because they’re Jewish, it’s because of the horrible things they’re doing to their fellow human beings.
A recent opinion poll published in the Times showed that Joe Biden's handling of the Gaza war has been met with solid disapproval among Americans, particularly younger Democrats. The poll reported that 57 percent of voters exhibited dissatisfaction with Biden's approach, and 33 percent supported it, while among younger voters, almost three-quarters expressed dissatisfaction with Biden's approach to the war.It's going to come way too late for the current generation of Palestinians, but when the boomers die, that 57% is gonna go way up if <75% of youngsters kinda hate the war crimes colonise grindset
When I went to school, we had people from everywhere, man. Some of my friends, right? One of them, his grandfather was French. The other's was Algerian. Their grandfathers were not just enemies - they were vicious enemies. And when they saw their grandkids were best friends they broke down in tears and became friends too. We had jewish students too of every stripe; secular, diaspora, sephardi, mizrahi, ashkenazi, jews who observed diligently and jews who ate bacon, and they were all unique people with their own voices and opinions. Real human beans. If you asked them what they thought about this whole shit each of them would have something different to say. And we also had palestinians - who still have, or maybe no longer given recent events, had family in Palestine & Israel. So I'm laughing when I read all this shit about how Palestinians need to be sent to re-education camps or cleansed from the earth like they are some kind of race of rabid zombies; this is just a repeat of the cleaning of native Americans, and how they were portrayed as evolutionary degenerates and scalping barbarians even as they were cleansed from their land.My best friend invited me to his bar-mitzvah, I was one of only three gentiles there, and it was fucking unforgettable being spun around in a wild circle by some tall Jewish uncle with the sick hair and wild flair. And there were these debate clubs - every time I was usually the sole audience member, because they gave all this free food and drinks. There were only three times there was a big audience. Once, it was the girls vs boys. The girls had to argue women had to argue against gender equality laws, the boys had to argue pro gender equality laws.
Diego: yes peace, but your family not lost their home, they have stolen it
seron: We all have stolen from God and our neighbor, everything that we have belongs to Him. You're just a sojourner in this world nothing more. We should try to act like it more.
Asasssssin: Have you tried NOT to attack the Israelis so as not to lose your home?
seron: [I cut out a lot here detailing his family background] Also please read my response after. All of this is meaningless, just pray (*3*) I love you. BTW we are one big family. Last question, do you like anime?
"I pray not for vengeance nor for forgiveness. I pray only that mercy be given to those who have taken from me. We are all just guests in this transient world loaned to us by the creator. Do you like anime?"
The Israel Defense Forces' detonation of more than 300 mines planted at Israa University in Gaza on Wednesday provided the latest evidence that Israel's objective in its bombardment of the enclave is not self-defense, rights advocates said.
"This is not self-defense," said Chris Hazzard, an Irish member of the United Kingdom's Parliament. "This is not counter-insurgency. This is ethnic-cleansing."
The International Middle East Media Center (IMEMC) called the destruction of Israa University Israel's latest attempt to carry out a "cultural genocide" along with the slaughter of at least 24,620 people in just over three months—people who Israeli officials have claimed are legitimate military targets despite the fact that roughly half of those killed have been children.
The wiping out of cultural landmarks was included in South Africa's International Court of Justice case accusing Israel of genocidal acts in Gaza last week, with the complaint noting that "Israel has damaged and destroyed numerous centers of Palestinian learning and culture," including libraries, one of the world's oldest Christian monasteries, and the Great Omari Mosque, where an ancient collection of manuscripts was kept before the building was destroyed in an airstrike last month.
"The crime of targeting and destroying archaeological sites should spur the world and UNESCO into action to preserve this great civilizational and cultural heritage," Gaza's Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities said after the mosque was bombed.
Now, international relations professor Nicola Perugini of the University of Edinburgh said, "all the universities in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed."
Why the Global South Supports Pretoria’s ICJ Genocide CaseWhy does Netanyahu speak like a fucking villain caricature lmao (https://youtu.be/wZwQvGvZ86k), I'm laughing outside but crying inside
Namibia and Bangladesh are the most vocal of many countries backing South Africa’s legal challenge to Israel.
Namibia has issued a statement in support of South Africa’s genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ), including a scathing criticism of Germany’s decision to intervene in defense of Israel.
Namibian President Hage Geingob said on Saturday that Germany could not “morally express commitment to the United Nations Convention against genocide, including atonement for the genocide in Namibia, whilst supporting the equivalent of a holocaust and genocide in Gaza.” Berlin has not responded yet.
The German government said on Jan. 12 that the accusation of genocide against Israel had “no basis” and amounted to a “political instrumentalization” of the convention. “In view of Germany’s history and the crime against humanity of the [Holocaust], the Federal Government sees itself as particularly committed to the Convention against Genocide,” it said.
The Namibian presidency said in response that “no peace-loving human being can ignore the carnage waged against Palestinians in Gaza” and slammed Germany’s “inability to draw lessons from its horrific history.”
About 80 percent of the Herero population and 50 percent of the Nama population in German South West Africa, now Namibia, were killed between 1904 and 1908 after German soldiers drove them into the desert and sealed off watering holes to stop survivors from returning. The majority died in concentration camps that were a precursor to the methods used in the Holocaust.
In what historians describe as the first genocide of the 20th century, Namibians resisting colonization were placed in concentration camps and a death camp known as Shark Island—a prototype for Auschwitz—in which Indigenous people and children born from the rape of imprisoned women by German soldiers were gruesomely experimented on to prove racial inferiority. About 65,000 Herero and 10,000 Nama were massacred. The severed heads of Namibian prisoners were sent back to Germany for research, and native Africans were put on display in human zoos. Hermann Wilhelm Göring, the son of the colony’s governor, Heinrich Göring, became one of Adolf Hitler’s most notorious military leaders.
Beyond Africa, Bangladesh—another nation born amid genocidal violence—said in a statement released Sunday that it would intervene as a third party in defense of South Africa’s case. It is the only nation so far to announce it will do so. Bangladesh’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said it “stands in support of South Africa’s application” against Israel’s “blatant disregard for and violation of international law” and “welcomes the opportunity to file a declaration of intervention in the proceedings in due course.”
The fact that South Africa has brought the case—and that the United States has reflexively opposed it—has further diminished U.S. credibility among Africans and shattered the notion that Washington stands for a rules-based order. Many nations in the so-called global south perceive blatant hypocrisy in Europe and the United States’ condemnation of an illegal occupation in Ukraine while continuing to staunchly back Israel despite the rising death toll in Gaza and settler violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. “When you are on the wrong side of the U.N. secretary-general … you are dismantling your house with the very tools that built it,” wrote Nesrine Malik in the Guardian.
South Africa has asked the ICJ to take provisional emergency measures to immediately suspend Israel’s military operations in Gaza and “take all reasonable measures” to prevent genocide. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has remained defiant. “No one will stop us, not The Hague, not the [Iranian-led] axis of evil and not anyone else,” he said Saturday.
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
You're having fantasy arguments with people who only exist inside your own head.
I would have thought gaslighting to be above you, but I guess I was wrong.
You misinterpreted - willfully or otherwise - an argument LW made(no Hamas in West Bank) and then demanded he provide evidence for that misinterpretation, and then said he had made the argument multiple times previously.
When LW goes back and clarifies every time he brought it up - presumably, I’m not the one making the accusation so I’m not going to check the completion percentage - you then said he was the one bringing nonsense to the thread when I expressed support.
It’s a pretty clear-cut case of sealioning, really.
More fool me really since I’m the one falling for it.
So are we operating on a falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus basis here? Because he was wrong/erroneous/lying in one thing that everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant?
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
That’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
You're having fantasy arguments with people who only exist inside your own head.
I would have thought gaslighting to be above you, but I guess I was wrong.
You misinterpreted - willfully or otherwise - an argument LW made(no Hamas in West Bank) and then demanded he provide evidence for that misinterpretation, and then said he had made the argument multiple times previously.
When LW goes back and clarifies every time he brought it up - presumably, I’m not the one making the accusation so I’m not going to check the completion percentage - you then said he was the one bringing nonsense to the thread when I expressed support.
It’s a pretty clear-cut case of sealioning, really.
More fool me really since I’m the one falling for it.
"Misinterpreted" his literal words and repeated opinion. Don't throw words like "gaslighting" at me when you're the one pretending he literally didn't say what he just requoted a few posts ago in that heap of sarcasms directed at me. He clearly believes that because hamas isn't in charge of the West Bank, hamas are not active in the West Bank.
Meanwhile you make statements like this:So are we operating on a falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus basis here? Because he was wrong/erroneous/lying in one thing that everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant?
and the bit I just responded toThat’s why LW is posting like this guys, you’ve both cherry-picked the part you think is the easiest to take apart as an argument, and ignored the rest, citations and all.
Makes it clear that you're not talking to me, because I weren't claiming that everything "everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant". I wasn't "cherry-picking the part I think is easiest to take apart", I was responding to the two things in the previous back and forth between LW and Strongpoint that I disagreed with him about. The rest is you projecting onto me.
Sure thing. You’re right, I’m wrong, well done.They got that Adam Savage "I reject your reality and substitute my own" mindset
Pro-tip: you want to be treated with respect? Show it first.
At first I thought that killing so many Gazans would have to lead to their surviving relatives taking up arms later on to avenge their loss, in a perpetual cycle of violence. But while I think everyone can understand how someone in their situation would respond that way, it doesn't appear to necessarily be the case. At least I haven't heard of any German or Japanese hostilities persisting long after WW2. And the indiscriminate bombing their civilians were subjected to was arguably worse. So it's not impossible that this war too might lead to peace between those involved. I'm sure that during WW2, the Americans, Germans and Japanese would have found it just as impossible to imagine everyone getting along as it seems the Israelis and Palestinians see things today. It wasn't by chance though, the significant and deliberate post war period of rebuilding played a large role in how things turned out. If only there was some way to skip all the horrors of war in the middle and just go directly to the peace part of things...A good start would be peace, and a good continuation would be peace everlasting. Just as killing has a good way of begetting more killing, peace begets peace
AHA! THE CONTEXT HAS IRREVOCABLY BEEN CHANGED. THERE WERE PROBABLY HIGHER CIVILIAN DEATHS IN THE PARAGUAYAN WAR, THOSE 10,000 DEAD CHILDREN ARE EVEN MORE JUSTIFIED NOW"
It's hard to believe it's as low as 61% civilians, considering 70% of casualties are women and children. Even if all men are hamas.
A study in The Lancet estimated at least 68.1% of casualties were civilians, while an analysis by Israeli professor Yagil Levy estimated at least 61% of the casualties were civilian. Both studies came up with this conservative estimate by considering only women, children and elderly as civilians (i.e. classifying all adult men as combatants). Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor estimated that 90% of the casualties were civilians.
I do think if Palestinians didn't live under constant violence year in year out the Israelis would find them to make nice neighbours
But there is another, more important, dimension of this war. So often ignored. RELIGION. Israel occupies zero % of Lebanon and yet there is a war with Hezbollah. And reducing violence will do absolutely nothing to stop religious fanatics from waging their war. Israel has some noticeable problems with its religious fanatics (including in the current ruling coalition), but, at its core, it is still a multi-religion secular democratic country. The other side are people who believe that only their brand of Muslims should have full rights in this part of the world, against people who are obsessed with the damned piece of architecture called Al-Aqsa valuing it far more than human lives, against people who say that they value death more than life.How exactly do you propose solving this problem of religion?
It is impossible to defeat this by diplomacy and deescalation.How about we try it first? And not performative diplomacy either. Actually sitting down at a table and listening to both Palestinian and Israeli complaints. Actual diplomacy. I was alive just south of the border with the north in the waning of the troubles. Many people thought that that conflict was one that could never be de-escalated. It was a conflict tied into both religion and old and deep wounds. But genuine diplomacy and de-escalation worked.
Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 proved it. The deescalatory step of removing Jewish settlers and occupying force resulted in more violence not less.It's strange, I gave the man I have locked in my basement more freedom to move about down there and he just used it to pry out a loose brick and throw it at my head. You know I think the solution to our disagreement is to add more chains until he's more agreeable. Giving him things just results in violence.
some fair legal evaluation of who is more criminal would be nice.
But there is another, more important, dimension of this war. So often ignored. RELIGION. Israel occupies zero % of Lebanon and yet there is a war with Hezbollah.Isreal and Lebanon have a harsh history together, including supporting religious militias, mutual invasions, and being complicit in massacres. There was never any proper reconciliation, just repeated bouts of violence. We could spend another dozen pages or so talking about how big a part does the religious fanaticism play in this conflict. But I think bringing up religion at all here is not useful. Whenever it's brought up, it's never to steer the discussion towards solutions, but rather to justify staying the course. To convince others you can't reason with >these people<. And when you can't reason with them, violence is the only option.
How exactly do you propose solving this problem of religion?
Forced conversion at rifle point?
I'm Irish, I know perfectly well how the British attempts to forcefully convert the Irish to be Protestant went. It backfired horribly. The more they tried and the harshier measures they enforced the more fanatical the Irish Catholics became.This is why we need to talk about deradicalization and secularisation not criminal forced conversion to Judaism or Atheism. I don't believe in any long-term peaceful solution in Palestine that doesn't involve moderate Islam
The issue here is the Muslim fanatics, and fanaticism is not something you can ever fix with soldiers. You can only intensify it. They fixed it in Germany and Japan not with soldiers but with endless convoys full of food, medicine, and fuel.Note that the Soviet-occupied part of Germany were't that lucky, they were not treated with respect to their sovereignty, but Nazism still went away. Also, soldiers and tribunals were the first steps of fixing it. Without soldiers sending convoys would do nothing.
The Palastinians have to try and reconcile the image that Hamas preaches of 'Evil Jews out wipe us out and they can only be safe when all the evil Jews are gone' with the constant blockade, poor access to water frequent seemingly random bombing into one of the densest urban environments on earth with no thought for collateral damage and now full on ethnic cleansing.There was no full blockade, many Gazans worked in Israel and had numerous chances to see who Jews really are. Also, Gazans are not small children, they should understand that when some of you cheer and scream "Allahu Akbar" when rockets are flying to Israel, there will be "seemingly random" retaliation. Also, there is no full-on ethnic cleansing in Gaza yet, only mixed signals suggesting some "soft" forms of it possible after the war. No, wartime relocations are not ethnic cleansing. They become such if they are maintained after the war.
How about we try it first?It is like trying peace talks with Hitler in 1943. It is impossible before the Gaza war is over and Hamas will be stripped of political control over it.
My old headmaster once made a colossal gaffa "we are the most diverse school in all of London. And yet we still succeed." He did not mean to add the "yet" and we gave him a standing ovation for it.Well, it might not have been quite the blunder (as in unintended, perhaps freudian, slip) that you ascribe him the 'credit' for.
I'm surprised they haven't advanced the doomsday clock. At least I haven't seen any news about it.
The 2024 Doomsday Clock announcementSoon
Watch the Clock unveiling live on January 23 at 10 a.m. EST.
Iran bombs everyone but... Israel they swear to destroy. Isn't it cute?You think the nearly 1000km between their borders has nothing to do with it?
This happens when you know that there will be a massive response from Israel but expect nothing substantial from others. Being strong works when dealing with predators, "deescalation" doesn't.
Iran bombs everyone but... Israel they swear to destroy. Isn't it cute?You think the nearly 1000km between their borders has nothing to do with it?
This happens when you know that there will be a massive response from Israel but expect nothing substantial from others. Being strong works when dealing with predators, "deescalation" doesn't.
Yes, this is horrible
But what is your solution? Do you propose to not engage with Hamas in hospitals giving them an absolutely safe area to strike from?
I suppose in retrospect, you could have made Israel state-sponsored hospitals, or set up alternative ones, to provide "secure" medical services before bombing the other buildings.Do you mean pre-war? It is impossible. You can't put them in Gaza because it requires occupation or else doctors would be killed on the spot. Having backup hospitals on the border with Gaza is unfeasible, you can't have fully staffed hospitals just in case you need to treat Gazans in a war.
Even simpler, just have a force sweep through the hospital building to secure it, and only if that force gets attacked would you consider bombing the structure.More or less what Israel is doing. They are not bombing hospitals indiscriminately. Here totally not pro-Israeli source (rather outdated but we are getting more of the same) - https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/destruction-of-medical-infrastructure-in-gaza - it includes only two direct strikes, most hospitals are taken in ground combat. This approach still damages hospitals and\or makes them inoperable.
Strongpoint believes that the ceasefire was trading Israeli soldiers lives for those of the hostages,It was. Mathematics of war is horrible. Lose-lose situations are common.
he’s not going to think trading Israeli soldiers lives for people he believes are responsible for harboring Hamas are worth that either.Not true. I am all for reasonable effort to limit collateral damage even if it means more dead soldiers in your army. It is basic humanism. Keyword - reasonable. What is demanded from the Israeli Army is usually unreasonable.
Yes, this is horrible
But what is your solution? Do you propose to not engage with Hamas in hospitals giving them an absolutely safe area to strike from?
I suppose in retrospect, you could have made Israel state-sponsored hospitals, or set up alternative ones, to provide "secure" medical services before bombing the other buildings.
Even simpler, just have a force sweep through the hospital building to secure it, and only if that force gets attacked would you consider bombing the structure. I think honest medical professionals would be annoyed by having soldiers running around the facility but they aren't going to shoot back.
There are lots of alternatives there.
Yes, this is horrible
But what is your solution? Do you propose to not engage with Hamas in hospitals giving them an absolutely safe area to strike from?
I suppose in retrospect, you could have made Israel state-sponsored hospitals, or set up alternative ones, to provide "secure" medical services before bombing the other buildings.
Even simpler, just have a force sweep through the hospital building to secure it, and only if that force gets attacked would you consider bombing the structure. I think honest medical professionals would be annoyed by having soldiers running around the facility but they aren't going to shoot back.
There are lots of alternatives there.
Yes, the magic "What if war wasn't war" alternatives. Entire world of things Israel could have done in that reality.
An economic blockade put in place to stop Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza that has proven to have failed many times over.
If it isn’t hurting your enemy, who is it hurting?
An economic blockade put in place to stop Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza that has proven to have failed many times over.
If it isn’t hurting your enemy, who is it hurting?
I wouldn't say that it is not hurting Hamas just because they found ways around it. It surely hurts everyone. But I imagine that without any blockade whatsoever, Hamas would have been able to easily acquire significantly more weapons. Slowing down their ability to engage in terrorism is helpful, even though stopping it entirely would be preferable.
It’s not been helpful though, it’s been quite ineffective, and punishing everybody else for the crimes of Hamas and other militant groups is grossly disproportional, and quite illegal.
AP: Israeli bombing deadlier than the razing of Aleppo, Mariupol, or Allied bombing raids on Germany. (https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796#:~:text=In%20just%20over%20two%20months,Germany%20in%20World%20War%20II.)
"You haven't seen me thank Qatar, have you noticed? I haven't thanked Qatar. Why? Because Qatar, to me, is no different in essence from the U.N., from the Red Cross and in a way it's even more problematic. However, I'm willing to use any mediator now who can help me bring them (the hostages) home."Fresh Bibi
Ynet also reported that Netanyahu’s efforts to respond to the hostages and relatives were met with tense and angry remarks.If you kill your own hostages and insult your mediators, you don't have to negotiate. 300 IQ art of war
A female abductee freed with her children – but without her husband, who remains in captivity – is heard on one recording saying: “The feeling we had there was that no one was doing anything for us. The fact is that I was in a hiding place that was shelled and we had to be smuggled out and we were wounded. That’s besides the helicopter that shot at us on the way to Gaza.”
Neither Keir Starner nor Rishi Sunak able to say killing a civilian walking under a white flag is a war crime (https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-24/pm-questioned-over-itv-news-footage-of-man-with-white-flag-shot-dead-in-gaza)
From a purely political standpoint it's also a bit of a gaffa in making the labour position identical to the tory position, of being surprisingly pro war crimes. Like the time where he said he was pro no water for Gazans (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5HQYfsUAf3s) and then spent the next 10 days managing the fallout as labour party members resigned and labour spokesmen insisted he did not mean he was pro collective punishment (https://labourlist.org/2023/10/keir-starmer-israel-palestine-gaza-conflict-councillor-resignations-lbc-interview/). Mega gift to the liberal democrats and the SNP who both adopted pro-ceasefire stance, especially since the only British-Palestinian MP is libdem. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-67433621) Sad though, she's British-Palestinian from the Palestininan Christians, and her family were the ones who were held under siege in one of the Churches where already one of her family members have died. Just not a good look for the reds and blues. Ppl still asked if she condemned Hamas, Russia and Saudi Arabia ???Neither Keir Starner nor Rishi Sunak able to say killing a civilian walking under a white flag is a war crime (https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-24/pm-questioned-over-itv-news-footage-of-man-with-white-flag-shot-dead-in-gaza)Ah, Keir, how long it takes to build a reputation for standing up for human rights, and how quickly someone can lose it.
JOHANNESBURG, Jan 26 (Reuters) - South Africa hailed what it called a "decisive victory" for international rule of law on Friday, after the International Court of Justice ruled in favour of its request to impose emergency measures against Israel over its military operations in Gaza.
The court ordered Israel to prevent acts of genocide against the Palestinians and do more to help civilians, as it wages war against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip.
It has not yet ruled on the core of the case brought by South Africa - whether genocide has occurred in Gaza.
Israel has called South Africa's allegations false and "grossly distorted", and said it makes the utmost efforts to avoid civilian casualties.
"Today marks a decisive victory for the international rule of law and a significant milestone in the search for justice for the Palestinian people," South Africa's department of international relations and cooperation said in a statement.
"South Africa sincerely hopes that Israel will not act to frustrate the application of this Order, as it has publicly threatened to do, but that it will instead act to comply with it fully, as it is bound to do."
It said South Africa would continue to act within the institutions of global governance to protect the rights of Palestinians in Gaza.
THE HAGUE, Jan 26 (Reuters) - The World Court on Friday ordered Israel to take action to prevent acts of genocide as it wages war against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, but it stopped short of calling for an immediate ceasefire.
Ruling on a case brought by South Africa, the court said Israel must ensure its forces did not commit genocide and take measures to improve the humanitarian situation for Palestinian civilians in the enclave.
In the ruling, 15 of the 17 judges on the International Court of Justice (ICJ) panel voted for emergency measures which covered most of what South Africa asked for, with the notable exception of ordering a halt to Israeli military action in Gaza.
Israel's military operation has laid waste to much of the densely populated enclave and killed more than 25,000 Palestinians in nearly four months, according to Gaza health authorities.
Israel unleashed its assault after a cross-border rampage on Oct. 7 by Hamas militants. Israeli officials said 1,200 people were killed, mostly civilians, and 240 taken hostage.
The court said it was "gravely concerned" about the fate of the hostages in Gaza and called on Hamas and other armed groups to immediately release them without conditions.
But the ruling, welcomed by Palestinians, will still be an embarrassment for Israel and its closest allies, including the United States.
Israel had asked the court to reject the case outright, saying it respects international law and has a right to defend itself.
"The state of Israel shall...take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of the Genocide convention," the court said.
Israel must report back to it on what steps it was taking in a month's time, it said.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the charge of genocide leveled against Israel was "outrageous" and said it would do whatever is necessary to defend itself.
For provisional measures to be enacted, it is not necessary to prove conduct amounting to genocide but that at least some of the alleged acts are capable of falling within the convention.
In court, the South African lawyer Adila Hassim alleged that genocidal acts committed by Israel included the mass killing of Palestinians, causing serious mental and bodily harm to Palestinians, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Gaza in whole or in part, and Israel’s military assault on Gaza’s healthcare system.
She told the court: “Nothing will stop this suffering, except an order from this court. Without an indication of provisional measures, the atrocities will continue; with the Israel Defense Forces indicating that they intend pursuing this course of action for at least a year.”
As well as an immediate ceasefire, South Africa also asked the court to order measures prohibiting the deprivation of access to adequate food and water, humanitarian assistance and medical supplies and assistance.
Cindy McCain, the executive director of the UN World Food Programme, said: “Supplies of food and water are practically nonexistent in Gaza, and only a fraction of what is needed is arriving through the borders. Civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation.”
The World Health Organization said it was “extremely concerned about the spread of disease when the winter season arrives” with diarrhoea and respiratory infections rising faster than expected in crowded shelters.
I'm still fuzzy on this - can civilians really, physically, not leave the area? Not "oh it's difficult to leave, but possible" but really "no sorry literally if you try to leave we'll kill you anyway, and if you stay in there you're probably going to die anyway"?
I understand it's millions of people. But did that population grow its own food to begin with, or was it all imported? (Wasn't it a massively urban area?) So if the population moved, shouldn't they still be able to get the supplies they were getting, just imported into that new location instead of the now-razed cities?
I'm not talking about the politics of this, I'm just talking about the pure physical logistics. Like, could it be done if there was the will to do it.
The Gaza Strip is somewhere upwards of 50% urban terrain I think, a few cities of various sizes along a major road with some stretches of empty-ish land in between, there's not much space for farms, so it's entirely dependant on food from outside sources. It's a bit like if New York City tried to feed itself with an area of farmland smaller than New York City itself, it's just not workable. They have a coastline, so they might get some fish to supplement what farms and livestock they have, but I don't know what if any fishing rights they have or how territorial waters work around there. I think the bulk of their supplies come in through a few Israeli checkpoints.Fishing was a hazardous activity even before operation iron swords, since the Israeli Navy has a long history of shooting them (https://imemc.org/article/israeli-navy-attacks-fishing-boats-in-gaza-9/)
In theory the populace could flee to Egypt or Israel proper, both are accessible albeit unwilling, but in the Gaza Strip itself there's not really anywhere to go.
How are they supposed to leave though?
Israel has form for not letting Palestinian refugees return to the territory so… I find it challenging to believe that they want to leave if the they have no guarantee of ever being able to return home.
That’s also why folk won’t accept Palestinian refugees, too.
Israel has form for not letting Palestinian refugees return to the territory so… I find it challenging to believe that they want to leave if the they have no guarantee of ever being able to return home.
That’s also why folk won’t accept Palestinian refugees, too.
Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France
It’s not up to Israel to decide where Palestinians should live: France
France condemned remarks by Israeli officials pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population, saying Israel has no right to decide the fate of people in Gaza.
"France condemns the remarks by Israeli Finance Minister Bazalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, calling for the emigration of the Gazan population as well as the re-establishment of (Jewish) colonies and occupation of the land (Gaza)," the French Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Urging Israel to refrain from such provocative remarks, saying they only serve to fuel tensions, the ministry said any forced population transfer would constitute a serious violation of international law according to the Geneva Convention and Rome Statute.
"It is not up to Israeli government to decide where Palestinians should live," it said. "The future of the Gaza Strip and its inhabitants will lie in a unified Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel."
Gazans 'should not be subject' to forcible relocation: UK
Britain "firmly rejects any suggestion of the resettlement of Palestinians outside of Gaza," said a statement from Britain’s Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.
"Gaza is Occupied Palestinian Territory and will be part of a future Palestinian state," it said, adding that it rejects suggestions from Israeli officials pushing for the resettlement of Palestinians outside of Gaza.
"We share the concerns of our allies and partners that Gazans should not be subject to forcible displacement or relocation from Gaza," the office added.
Rejection of Gazans displacement in 'strongest possible way': Germany
The German Foreign Ministry also underlined its opposition to the dislocation of the Palestinian population in Gaza, saying: "We reject the statements made by the two ministers in the strongest possible way."
Ministry spokesperson Sebastian Fischer said the issue was discussed during the G7 Foreign Ministers Meeting in Tokyo last November.
Fischer added: "The forced removal of Palestinians from Gaza and the reduction of the territory of the Gaza Strip should not be out of the question."
Displacing population would violate international law: Spain
Spain, one European country that has been outspoken in defending Palestinians, joined countries condemning the Israeli officials pushing the forced relocation of the population in Gaza.
"The Government of Spain rejects recent statements by members of the Government of Israel evoking population movements in Gaza that would be contrary to international law," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
"Spain reiterates the urgent need to respect international law, international humanitarian law and to guarantee the protection of the civilian population," it added.
Displacement calls 'do not fit' future two-state solution: Netherlands
The Netherlands called the Israeli officials' proposal for the voluntary migration of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip "irresponsible."
Amsterdam supports a two-state solution, the Dutch Foreign Ministry underlined in a statement.
"The Netherlands rejects any calls for Palestinian displacement from Gaza or reduction of Palestinian territory," it said. "This does not fit a future two-state solution, with a viable Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel.”
Mass emigration of Palestinians is against international law: Slovenia
Slovenia also rejected the idea of the mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza.
"Slovenia rejects the recent statements of members of the Israeli government who proposed mass emigration of Palestinians from Gaza," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Warning that any emigration of the Palestinian population from Gaza is against international law, the ministry stressed that it would further threaten the prospects for a sustainable two-state solution.
"We once again call for respect for international law and international humanitarian law and the protection of the civilian population in Gaza," it added.
Israeli officials’ proposal 'inflammatory, irresponsible': EU
Although only a handful of European countries condemned the Israeli officials’ call individually, a top official of the 27-member EU bloc slammed the call for the displacement of people from the Gaza Strip.
"I strongly condemn the inflammatory and irresponsible statements by Israeli ministers Ben Gvir & Smotrich slandering the Palestinian population of Gaza and calling for a plan for their emigration," EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said on X.
He also stressed: "Forced displacements are strictly prohibited as a grave violation of IHL (international humanitarian law), and words matter."
"In general, this is just a hugely profound moment looking at the history of both Israel's support for the apartheid government in South Africa and the ongoing solidarity between anti-apartheid movements globally for South Africa and for Palestine," says Jo Bluen, an international relations scholar and organiser at South African Jews for a Free Palestine.
South African Jews for a Free Palestine have been at the forefront of Johannesburg's protests decrying Israel's actions in Gaza.
Professor Salim Vally, director for the Centre for Education Rights and Transformation at the University of Johannesburg, says: "Most South Africans also recognise Israel's complicity in our own oppression.
"For example, Israel was an important arms supplier to apartheid South Africa, despite the international arms embargo. As late as 1980, 35% of Israel's arms exports were destined for our country."
"When the global anti-apartheid movement forced countries to impose sanctions on the apartheid regime, Israel imported South African goods and re-exported them to the world as a form of inter-racist solidarity," he adds.
"Israel was loyal to the apartheid state and clung to this friendship when almost all other relationships dissolved."
November 1, 1983, South Africa Arms Industry
South African officials, however, have frequently expressed a preference for US military equipment, especially high-technology items. Continued acquisi- tion by Armscor of US military technology either through international arms dealers or through the cooperation of close US allies such as Israel will create periodic problems for the United States. The Soviets can be expected, for example, to cite South Africa's ease in circumventing the UN arms embargo to bolster their claims that Washington is colluding with Pretoria against black Africa.
But alas. Everyone stfu. Strongpoint has another big brain take. The world shouldn't have worked together to end South Africa apartheid. The world should have just cleansed South Africa of its black populace to help maintain a white majorityIf you helped Jews flee from German-occupied countries you didn't help to cleanse Europe from Jews, you did something very different. It is not me who calls Israeli actions in Gaza genocide.
If you helped Jews flee from German-occupied countries you didn't help to cleanse Europe from Jews, you did something very different. It is not me who calls Israeli actions in Gaza genocide.Because they were helped home. What you're advocating for is the fucking Madagascar solution
Also, what if a Palestinian wants to leave Palestine and seek a better life elsewhere? Should they be prohibited from doing so because by doing so they help the ethnic cleansing of their own country and their personal rights don't matter?It is because their personal rights matter that Israel shouldn't be the one to decide for them
The UN? UN facilities have been getting damaged and destroyed in air strikes for the entirety of the current conflict, why would they put people at risk just for bureaucracy’s sake in an active war zone?Israel just attacked another U.N. shelter with tanks, killing 12 whilst the UN was distributing aid. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-unrwa-shelter-khan-younis-hospitals-under-siege/) In a roundabout where civilians gathered to wait for aid, Israeli infantry opened fire, killing 20. (https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idRW516725012024RP1/?chan=world-news).
In a roundabout where civilians gathered to wait for aid, Israeli infantry opened fire, killing 20..
Occam's Razor says the LEAST likely explanation would be Hamas opening fire on refugees to then blame it on the IDF.
Israel can't realistically accept refugees from Gaza. It is a security nightmare...True. Imagine te US or Europe taking in IS refugees. Not done. Don't import terrorists.
Because they were helped home.U wut mate? You lack historical knowledge.
I have been given the impression that a lot of the Jews that evacuated Germany at that time didn't want to go back even after the war because the potential for then to be killed for being Jewish.Well, you may have noticed that a lot of them didn't ever go back, so, yes, that seems to be a reasonable impression.
Also, as I said at the time, it isn’t a ridiculous leap in logic to think that the people dropping bombs from the sky are responsible for a bomb dropping from the sky.
Occam's Razor says the LEAST likely explanation would be Hamas opening fire on refugees to then blame it on the IDF.
The death toll from tank fire that hit a United Nations shelter in the Gaza Strip's main southern city of Khan Younis has risen to 12, a top U.N. aid official said Thursday.Coupled with them just openly doing it
UNRWA chief Philippe Lazzarini said in a post on social media that the bombardment showed a "blatant disregard of basic rules of war," noting that the compound had been clearly marked as a U.N. facility and its coordinates shared with Israeli authorities.
Quote from: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/european-countries-oppose-israeli-idea-of-gaza-populations-forced-relocation/3101970Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France [...]
It just feels completely pointless trying to explain why ethnic cleansing is bad. [...]
US halts financing to UNRWA over Israeli accusations 12 employees were involved in October 7th attacks. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203)
Funny how they still support Israel in spite of the four months of human rights violations, though.
Also, as I said at the time, it isn’t a ridiculous leap in logic to think that the people dropping bombs from the sky are responsible for a bomb dropping from the sky.
That is true. The fault lies in the ignorance of the conflict showed by thinking Israel was the only people dropping bombs from the sky.
Quote from: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/european-countries-oppose-israeli-idea-of-gaza-populations-forced-relocation/3101970Recently, the idea of pushing for the displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population was given voice by Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in what they called "voluntary migration," urging countries to take displaced Palestinians in.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich’s remarks received immediate and international condemnation, including from the UK, Germany and France [...]
It just feels completely pointless trying to explain why ethnic cleansing is bad. [...]
Israel: Voluntary migration.
Netherlands: Voluntary migration? Irresponsible!
UN and LW: Forced migration!? Genocide!US halts financing to UNRWA over Israeli accusations 12 employees were involved in October 7th attacks. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203)
Funny how they still support Israel in spite of the four months of human rights violations, though.
UNRWA wasn't receiving rocket fire before their staff assisted in a terrorist attack. Surely a difference in standards between a supposed humanitarian aid organization and a country at war isn't too unexpected?
Israel receives rockets while at "peace". That's why the US funds Israel's Iron Dome.
The report may be classified, but earlier this year an unusually candid description of the stockpile’s contents emerged when a former US military chief recalled in an op-ed (https://jinsa.org/sending-dumb-weapons-from-israel-to-ukraine/) touring the WRSA-I warehouse.
“The current stockpile is full of so-called dumb munitions [those without sophisticated guidance systems],” he said, including “thousands of ‘iron bombs’ that are simply dropped from aircraft so gravity can do its work”.
Defence analysts say there is little transparency about the categories and quantities of arms that the US is providing to Israel, but one transfer from WRSA-I emerged in October when Axios reported (https://www.axios.com/2023/10/19/us-israel-artillery-shells-ukraine-weapons-gaza) that the US would supply Israel with 155mm artillery shells. The unguided munitions, intended for Israel’s ground campaign in Gaza, were held in large volumes in WRSA-I.
The 155mm shells are particularly hazardous, according to Marc Garlasco, a former UN war crimes investigator, as each shell releases 2,000 lethal fragments, and “their accuracy degrades over distance, increasing the likelihood of civilians and civilian infrastructure getting hit by errant shells”.
Images published by Gaza police’s explosive ordnance disposal team last month appeared to show munition fragments of 155mm artillery shells being removed from buildings in Gaza. It is not known whether they were of US origin or from its stockpile.
The IDF and Israel’s defence ministry did not respond to requests for comment.
Former officials said that where transfers from WRSA-I can differ from regular arms sales between the US and another country was that the equipment can be drawn from the stockpile before the processes that account for the transferred equipment are fully completed.
“We sort of retroactively build a foreign military sales case, which may or may not need to be notified to Congress, depending on what they took and what quantities,” said Josh Paul, the former state department official.
Paul, who until October worked on the US’s foreign arms transfers, said he was concerned by the expedited process as it could bypass the state department’s pre-transfer controls. “There’s no review of human rights, there’s no review of regional balance, there’s none of the conventional arms transfer policy review that would normally happen,” he said. “Essentially, it’s take what you can and we’ll sort it out later.”
A Pentagon spokesperson acknowledged it was “using foreign military financing and sales authorities to expedite delivery of security assistance, where feasible”. They said the US was “leveraging several avenues and sources to provide Israel security assistance, to include stockpiles in Israel and the US.”
Arms control experts say the speed and opacity of these transfers make it difficult to understand what is leaving WRSA-I, the legal mechanisms used for drawdowns and the extent to which Congress is being made aware of what support the US is providing to Israel via the stockpile.
There is a very thin line between voluntary and forced migration and I have no doubts that a person like Ben Gvir will push that line as hard as he can but we have reached the point at which some people want to force the population of Gaza to stay in devastated Gaza even if they don't want to because it will help the cause of free Palestine. Perhaps. Few decades later... Meanwhile, ordinary Palestinians should suffer for someone else's political goals and agendas.
UNRWA admits that they have 142 employees killed since the beginning of the war but refuses to tell their names. I guess it will be awkward if most of those are HAMAS members.
Meanwhile, the UN Staff Union held a ceremony in the Secretariat lobby where the names of the deceased colleagues were read aloud.
Of course, it is all slander, UNRWA employees are known to be good, peace-loving people (https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1547951749918429189)
Shortly after Goldstone's comments, UN Watch, a lobby group with strong ties to Israel, challenged the impartiality of one of the four members of the panel set up by the UN Human Rights Council on January 12.
UN Watch said it was formally seeking the withdrawal or disqualification of British law professor Christine Chinkin on the grounds that she had already publicly taken a stance accusing Israel of war crimes and violating human rights law during the Gaza offensive.
Its submission notably cited a letter published in The Sunday Times on January 11 that she jointly signed with other academics and lawyers.
The UN human rights office was unable to confirm immediately that the challenge had been filed or comment on its claims.
However, in that letter to the newspaper, Chinkin and the legal experts also took Hamas to task over suicide bombings and missiles fired into Israel, calling them war crimes.
I guess if we take this as an example of your position, does that mean if one Ukrainian soldier commits a war crime the entirety of the armed forces should be considered dishonorable war criminals?Well, It is your standards for the IDF...
QuoteI guess if we take this as an example of your position, does that mean if one Ukrainian soldier commits a war crime the entirety of the armed forces should be considered dishonorable war criminals?Well, It is your standards for the IDF...
But it is a wrong analogy. A proper analogy would be more like - should the US halt funding of Ukraine should they find that a significant part of this funding goes to groups hostile to the US and\or its allies? And my answer here is yes.
They wanted her removed because she wasn’t impartial when she accused Israel of war crimes… even though she also accused Hamas of the same in the letter.
A declaration of war on Iran is about time though, before they are armed with nuclear weapons by Russia. Same goes for NK.
North Korea possibly already got Russian ICBMs with the secret secret Russian transports that were spotted
… mission chief Richard Goldstone and UN rights officials had it broadened to consider all sides.
I don’t know why I bother posting links if nobody reads them before responding to them.Notwithstanding that mistake, I gotta side with Bumber overall here, hector: both sides (or however many the case comes to encompass) deserve the chance to make their case to a judge who hasn't already committed to a predetermined answer outside of a courtroom. Her having prejudged against both sides doesn't make her unbiased, it just means both sides should want her out. In the US and most civilized jurisdictions, not making public statements that could prejudice a future case is a basic part of the decorum expected from all judges, and judges have gotten in some pretty big trouble for not following it, at times.Quote… mission chief Richard Goldstone and UN rights officials had it broadened to consider all sides.
I'd like to stop in for a moment and remind everyone to stop, take a look around, and just remind yourself how badly the modern international right wing screws up anything important. Thanks!What even is the "international right wing" in this context? Palestine, because it's allied with Iran and Russia?
I'd like to stop in for a moment and remind everyone to stop, take a look around, and just remind yourself how badly the modern international right wing screws up anything important. Thanks!
September 11th 2001 was quite a day.
The US has bombed 85 targets in Syria and Iraq, targeting the Iranian Revolutionairy guard and groups allied with Iran.The US should really be going after the Drone Factories in Iran. This might be the test run to see if they can get away with it.
16 people were killed in Iraq, 23 in Syria.
According to US defense minister Lloyd Austin, this is only the beginning of the US reaction. He says that attacks on US troops cannot be tolerated.
September 11th 2001 was quite a day.
And of course it can never be forgotten, the release of Portal Runner for the PS2. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XJAXhoplnI&ab_channel=GameAtlantis)
Lest we forget.
I'm not sure juggling the numbers to end up with 'less horrid than Russia' is how one should clear the morally justifiable bar.
I'm not sure juggling the numbers to end up with 'less horrid than Russia' is how one should clear the morally justifiable bar.
On one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head.These war crimes are very disturbing. It's unfortunate to read about.
These war crimes are very disturbing.
so the article open citing unquestioning hamas ownh number for casualties,If you are referring to the LA Times article, there is no mention of the word Hamas once throughout the article.
While I am not saying that Israeli army may not have a maniac who would snipe children while sparing their adult parents, I find it... dubiousI disagree, I believe the war crimes are real. Snipers are an unfortunate part of reality.
What I fail to understand is why would anyone bother bringing a dead child with a large hole in the head (if not half of the head missing if it is 12mm caliber) to the hospital. If a sniper shoots you in the head - you die.
Lies should be believable.
An Israeli military sniper shot and killed two women inside the Holy Family Parish in Gaza on Saturday, according to the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem.https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/idf-sniper-gaza-church-deaths-intl-hnk
so the article open citing unquestioning hamas ownh number for casualties,If you are referring to the LA Times article, there is no mention of the word Hamas once throughout the article.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children
The point being, it's extraordinary only when viewed through your personal preconceptions. I, for one, don't see it as a particularly contentious claim. So if you want to convince people like me it's bunkum, saying that you don't feel like it's plausible is not particularly convincing.
Do you believe that a child can receive a sniper bullet in the head and keep breathing long enough to be brought to the hospital? Yes or no?
And this kind of miracle happened not once... The article claims that it happened to a handful of children.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health's figures have historically been reliable. They have only ever, to the best of my knowlege, provided total death figures for the current conflict. Figures which Israel has repeatedly said are 'generally correct'. Nor was it even claimed by Israel to be a Hamas missile but rather one they said was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The incident continues to be disputed both as to origin of the missile and total casualty figues. But I guess you know all this, right?
Thank you feelotraveller for mentioning how Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a possible culprit for the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. It helped me find the wikipedia page for the event:Do you believe that a child can receive a sniper bullet in the head and keep breathing long enough to be brought to the hospital? Yes or no?
And this kind of miracle happened not once... The article claims that it happened to a handful of children.
Yes I believe it is possible. But it is beside the point because...
The article does not claim that any of the children were alive when they reached the hospital. It does clearly state that none of them survived.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health's figures have historically been reliable. They have only ever, to the best of my knowlege, provided total death figures for the current conflict. Figures which Israel has repeatedly said are 'generally correct'. Nor was it even claimed by Israel to be a Hamas missile but rather one they said was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The incident continues to be disputed both as to origin of the missile and total casualty figues. But I guess you know all this, right?
so the article open citing unquestioning hamas ownh number for casualties, which we already know are inflate like that time one of their own rocket hit a parking lot and there were "thousands deaths at an hospital", then goes on with that story of parent with children executed from unknown sources providing absolutely zero chain of trust, neither from the parent nor from the hospital, and we're just supposed to take all of that at face value, from people that made a point to use every bit of truth they can get their hand on as propaganda?QuoteThese war crimes are very disturbing.
they would be indeed.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health's figures have historically been reliable.
The health ministry's numbers have historically been considered reliable by the United Nations, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch, and the United States Department of State.
Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance.The authors correctly point out the harm of not believing in the current death toll of Gaza. I believe it is possible that you LoSboccacc have been consumed by misinformation. The US government and non-governmental organizations like the UN have recognized the accuracy of historic Gaza Ministry of Health reporting. The above The Lancet piece has found no evidence of inflation as well.
The whole plot of the story:Response to Strongpoint
1) A group of people just wanted to get home
2) But evil Israeli genocidial snipers ambused them and shot their small children like game, going for headshots
3) Desperate parents rushed their mortally wounded children to the hospital
4) Heroic doctors tried to save them but having no supplies failed to do so
Is a piece of literature designed to provoke an emotional reaction to a tragedy. It is also absolutely unplausable on many levels.
Just telling the truth is boring and innefective. Instead of reporting the sad reality like children with head wounds are being brought to the hospitals or real children being caught in firefights and dying, propaganda produces such emotionally charged pieces.
An Israeli military sniper shot and killed two women inside the Holy Family Parish in Gaza on Saturday, according to the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem.https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/idf-sniper-gaza-church-deaths-intl-hnk
An Israeli sniper then opened fire on them, killing Shamriz and Talalka and wounding Haim.Yotam Haim was soon killed when
a soldier acting against the battalion commander's order shot and killed him.
This intent is evident from Israel’s conduct in:
(1) specially targeting Palestinians living in Gaza;
(2) using weaponry that causes large-scale homicidal destruction, as well as targeted sniping of
civilians;
Israeli snipers were conducting a field execution in Al-Shatie Refugee Camp in Gaza, in which they killed multiple Palestinian civilians, including a Palestinian father and daughter who were trying to find shelter.
Perhaps it wasn't a sniper round. Perhaps it clipped their head. Perhaps the parents wanted to try to save their child anyway. There's many reasons why this is plausible.
A Palestinian father and daughter were killed by Israeli snipers in Gaza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6__JTz_1iso&rco=1
Perhaps it wasn't a sniper round. Perhaps it clipped their head. Perhaps the parents wanted to try to save their child anyway. There's many reasons why this is plausible.
You are looking for explanations as to why the story you like is true instead of examining it critically.
In further comments to the UK's Channel 4 News, IDF spokesman Lt Col Peter Lerner said a "mob stormed the convoy bringing it at some stage to a halt.
"The tanks that were there to secure the convoy see the Gazans being trampled and cautiously tries to disperse the mob with a few warning shots."
In a video statement posted on X at 20:35 GMT - 22:35 in Gaza and Israel - the IDF's Daniel Hagari claimed: "Hundreds became thousands and things got out of hand."
He said the tank commander decided to retreat to avoid harming civilians and "they were backing up securely, not shooting at the mob".
BBC article on the convoy massacre (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68445973).You... you can back up and fire into the air at the same time.
They can’t even get their story straight on it:QuoteIn further comments to the UK's Channel 4 News, IDF spokesman Lt Col Peter Lerner said a "mob stormed the convoy bringing it at some stage to a halt.
"The tanks that were there to secure the convoy see the Gazans being trampled and cautiously tries to disperse the mob with a few warning shots."
In a video statement posted on X at 20:35 GMT - 22:35 in Gaza and Israel - the IDF's Daniel Hagari claimed: "Hundreds became thousands and things got out of hand."
He said the tank commander decided to retreat to avoid harming civilians and "they were backing up securely, not shooting at the mob".
Which is it? Firing shots to calm civilians - never mind considering why they think that is step one in trying to de-escalate a situation - or retreating to get out the way?
In what way is it knee-jerk? Just read the article.You said:
Israeli spokespeople say most of the casualties were from stampeding and trampling and the aid vehicles leaving, while a hospital says that of the 176 patients they saw, 142 had bullet wounds. That falls into question “warning shots while leaving” narrative.
Even from the quotes I put in, the spokespeople seem very surprised that starving people are desperate for food.
They can’t even get their story straight on it: [...] Which is it? Firing shots to calm civilians - never mind considering why they think that is step one in trying to de-escalate a situation - or retreating to get out the way?but there's no conflict or contradiction between those two statements. Firing warning shots isn't shooting at the mob. If you believe the statements are false, that's another story, but to scoff that "they can't even get their story straight" when the two things are completely compatible is just a knee-jerk, poorly-thought-through reaction.
I will refrain from posting when I’m concentrating on other things in future then :pWell, you know me, I can only speak to what you said, not what you meant. :P
Eurgh can you not just try to be psychic or something? /sI will refrain from posting when I’m concentrating on other things in future then :pWell, you know me, I can only speak to what you said, not what you meant. :P
Eurgh can you not just try to be psychic or something? /sI only do that during mafia. It would be a waste to use it any other time.
Why is it so unreasonable to think Israel shot some more civilians, again, and lied about it, again?This question, the core part of your large message, is rather irrelevant.
Or, you know, the Saudis that drove the Houthi to rebell with their genocidal Wahhabism...Uh, that's not really how it went down in the slightest. Completely inaccurate.
...Or why not both.
The conflict originate from Saudi-influenced salafist imams drumming up hatred against the Shia minority, and the Shia followers taking up arms to combat their persecution.Sorry, but... that's pretty propagandized.
This is very much the consequences of Saudis Arabia attempting to genocide minorities as a tool to further/cement their own influence in the region.
When someone is a result of resistance to someone, that someone usually plays some role in symbolism. They would have something like - "Death to Salafists" or "Death to Saudi Arabia" at the center of their ideology.
Instead, they have the following on their flag:
"God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam."
They rebelled not because of some persecution (even if they say so, scriver is merely retranslating Houthis here) but because they are hateful religious fanatics and taking power is what such groups do as soon as the state is weak enough.
at this point, isn't it...and I dont take this word lightly mind you, but isnt it genocide to starve (or even attempt to) an entire nation of people? No matter what side you are on or what the other side did, thats very wrong.Well, it might be, but that isn't happening, so I guess it's moot.
I facepalm so hard when I hear the claims of famine in Gaza.
Sure, there are, undeniably, food shortages in some areas but it is not a famine. When there is a famine people don't make videos complaining that MREs from the skies are not tasty enough. They also don't post videos about how stray cats refuse to eat food from aid (because there are no stray cats.)
And there should be photos of malnourished people. A LOT of those. We see none if we don't count sick children, bad AI-generated stuff, and photos from Yemen\Sudan that do have famines.
Stuff like inventing non-existing famines diminishes the sufferings of people who actually desperately try to live through famines.
Or, you know, the Saudis that drove the Houthi to rebell with their genocidal Wahhabism...
...Or why not both.
The conflict originate from Saudi-influenced salafist imams drumming up hatred against the Shia minority, and the Shia followers taking up arms to combat their persecution.
This is very much the consequences of Saudis Arabia attempting to genocide minorities as a tool to further/cement their own influence in the region.
I facepalm so hard when I hear the claims of famine in Gaza.
Sure, there are, undeniably, food shortages in some areas but it is not a famine. When there is a famine people don't make videos complaining that MREs from the skies are not tasty enough. They also don't post videos about how stray cats refuse to eat food from aid (because there are no stray cats.)
And there should be photos of malnourished people. A LOT of those. We see none if we don't count sick children, bad AI-generated stuff, and photos from Yemen\Sudan that do have famines.
Stuff like inventing non-existing famines diminishes the sufferings of people who actually desperately try to live through famines.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
(https://tablet-mag-images.b-cdn.net/production/a1cf90b186532a36262d37125df7198c29dde9c7-1501x1102.jpg)
Total Gazan deaths per day (Oct 26 - Nov 10, 2023) according to Gaza Health Ministry figures.
If such funds are usually seen as ATMs for various Israeli organizations, without a clear agenda, the Tikvah Fund and the organizations it chooses to assist are backed by a vision, a strategy and an orderly plan: To have ideas and worldviews associated with the American Republican Party, particularly its more economically right-wing factions, take root in the Israeli public. “Tikvah is politically Zionist, economically free-market oriented, (and) culturally traditional,” the website declares.
Smotrich’s plan was released September 6 in an 8,600-word lead essay, “The Decision Plan” (Tochnit Ha-Hachra’ah), in the fall issue of the Hebrew-language bimonthly Hashiloach, a conservative journal of ideas published by the New York-based Tikvah Fund.
That’s right — this plan’s institutional backing includes one of the most distinguished philanthropies in Diaspora Jewry. Tikvah is one of several conservative foundations endowed by the estate of the late investment fund manager Zalman-Sanford Bernstein. It is largely controlled by his widow, the philanthropist Elaine Mem Bernstein, and Tikvah’s board of directors includes some of the most prominent names in Jewish neoconservatism, among them William Kristol and Elliott Abrams.
In addition to Hashiloach, launched a year ago, Tikvah has a number of other publications, including the English-language journals Mosaic, Jewish Review of Books and the Library of Jewish Ideas, a book series published jointly with Princeton University Press. Another Bernstein foundation, Keren Keshet-The Rainbow Fund, publishes Nextbook and Tablet magazine. A third, the Avi Chai Foundation, is a major force in Jewish education reform.
at this point, isn't it...and I dont take this word lightly mind you, but isnt it genocide to starve (or even attempt to) an entire nation of people? No matter what side you are on or what the other side did, thats very wrong.
There is always propoganda (every which way, as seen above). I acknowledged 'top-slicing' of aid (whoever by, to the detriment of the less able/connected).at this point, isn't it...and I dont take this word lightly mind you, but isnt it genocide to starve (or even attempt to) an entire nation of people? No matter what side you are on or what the other side did, thats very wrong.
Look, I am merely annoyed that the problem is exaggerated in propaganda. There is no famine in Gaza.
As for Israel deliberately starving Gazan population... It is another propaganda exaggeration. The problem of Gaza is not the unavailability of food = more than enough trucks are going in. The problem is that Hamas and other armed groups taking the lion's share of the aid to themselves. Sure, this chaos is caused by Israel but it is what wars do.
That genuinely is an unrealistically low level of variation in the context of combat deaths, and you are now arguing that self-described Jewish sources are inherently untrustworthy because of their presumptively compromised loyalties.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality dataI never got this argument. It boils down to - "In the past, when Gaza was full of journalists and officials who could easily check it, MoH didn't lie. It means that now, in the fog of war, being almost the only source of information, there is no way MoH started lying."
-snip-
Really more interested in the graph, TBH. The X and Y-axes are linear, so they didn't do anything weird there. If the points on the chart match the actual given data, then this obviously a scatter plot with a strong linear correlation. Deaths just continue to slowly ramp up at a constant rate per day, with very little deviation from the line...I'd ask why they highlit just 27/Oct[1] to 10/Nov.
...I'd ask why they highlit just 27/Oct[1] to 10/Nov.
(It's even entirely possible that this particular fortnight of data-collection were so disrupted by conditions on the ground that exact timings were impossible to establish for otherwise confirmed counts submitted at intervals less frequently than daily, so the compilers made best-guesses that intentionally or unintentionally smoothed the contrast across these few days'-worth of cumulated detail. Not an issue, if it still builds up to the right total in the larger trend until some nitpick went selectively looking for "something" by p-hacking the data, and found this artefact that nonetheless represents.)
Maybe they did say that. Maybe there were a whole lot of caveats about how they have to deal with minor difficulties of compiling the data, all understandable and none of them changing the long-term accuracy. The graph-makers may have decided to not pass on the caveats (especially if it was contrary to their intended interpretation...).(It's even entirely possible that this particular fortnight of data-collection were so disrupted by conditions on the ground that exact timings were impossible to establish for otherwise confirmed counts submitted at intervals less frequently than daily, so the compilers made best-guesses that intentionally or unintentionally smoothed the contrast across these few days'-worth of cumulated detail. Not an issue, if it still builds up to the right total in the larger trend until some nitpick went selectively looking for "something" by p-hacking the data, and found this artefact that nonetheless represents.)
Probably should say they're doing that, if that's what happened. Those limitations are noted for other periods.
seemingly aware of common 'graphing tricks' like non-linear axes that might mean either an objection is raised or that you whould raise one yourself (although, in the right circumstances, something like a log-normal or log-log layout showing a linear trend is exactly what you'd expect from perfect data) but missing all kinds of other issues that were at least a problem with the view being presented.Just as an aside, I'd be happy if I could never hear this dumb take again as long as I live. Non-linear axes are not a "graphing trick". There are no "graphing tricks". When people complain about "misleading graphs", it is usually because they did not understand what the graph was trying to convey.
BTW, there weren't. UNRWA claimed it for more fundonhgAre we really debating whether or not people are starving and/or dying in the Gaza strip?
More like debating how accurate casualty numbers are and how severe food shortages are.
I don't have a strong opinion on the losses in Gaza. I have zero Trust in Hamas sources but for a war of this scale 30K is plausible. Even 50K or 100K would be plausible especially if you count indirect civilian losses from the lack of proper medical care, war-zone banditism and similar stuff.
What I am more interested in is the combatants to non-combatants ratio.
But I firmly believe that "starvation" or "imminent starvation" is pro-Palestinian propaganda BS.
Indeed, if the grapher isn't completely disingenuous (or incompetant), you can probably work out what reality is. Though the unwary or willingly misled can find themselves drawn to wrong conclusions, and others might cynically allow that to happen, one way or another (https://xkcd.com/2023/). The exact choice of graph format can be a bonus or a problem, for each party. It may be what you don't include, as much as what you do.No, this is a campaign to reduce data literacy while making people feel like they're smart.
Everyone tends to use advantageous representations of data,That's called "effective communication".
Malcolm Tucker would call it that, certainly.Everyone tends to use advantageous representations of data,That's called "effective communication".
Looking at the new graph, you can see that the decision of the (...briefly checks link...) March 7th article to highlight a two week period of data originating from nigh-on half a year ago was clearly being selective for a 'notable' artefact, as I thought. All else aside (yes, the new graph quotes various missing/vague periods[1], but need not be exhaustive of all passing issues), that doesn't look like a particularly manipulated set of data anywhere like the original complaint alleged (and carefully contrived its window on the data to 'prove').
And now I would like to interrupt this debate with some actual news!
US calls for vote Friday on UN resolution declaring that immediate Gaza cease-fire is `imperative’ (https://apnews.com/article/us-un-gaza-resolution-vote-ceasefire-civilians-cce778b676cb52210dcc46630bd94060)
Now to see if the Americans stick to their guns, or reverse position again.
How come a veto can't be used to cancel a veto? Like in some games, where you can cancel a cancel?https://xkcd.com/1086/ ?
For those saying the food situation is OK and acceptable in Gaza and "not real starvation like elsewhere":
Four out of five starving people in the world are in Gaza -- World Food Program. (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/gaza-is-starving)
If you look globally, worldwide, right now, there are about a hundred and twenty-nine thousand people who are in I.P.C. Phase 5, meaning a catastrophic type of hunger. A hundred and twenty-nine thousand. In Gaza, there are five hundred and seventy-seven thousand. If you add these two numbers together, you can say that you have about seven hundred thousand people in the world who are in I.P.C. Phase 5, of which five hundred and seventy-seven thousand are in Gaza. That means that eighty per cent of the people, or four out of five people, in famine or a catastrophic type of hunger are in Gaza right now.
Edit: better yet, when you were advocating for war crimes:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
A lot of Geneva Convention stuff makes sense ONLY if both sides follow it.
This war would be less horrible if both sides agreed to not do this (and it is what Geneva and other conventions are all about) but they don't.
Edit: better yet, when you were advocating for war crimes:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Protip: When gaslighting, don't include exact words and context.QuoteA lot of Geneva Convention stuff makes sense ONLY if both sides follow it.QuoteThis war would be less horrible if both sides agreed to not do this (and it is what Geneva and other conventions are all about) but they don't.
Calling for a level playing field on something you've called horrible isn't advocation. It's just pragmatic.
gaslight
2 of 2
verb
gaslighted or gaslit; gaslighting; gaslights
transitive verb
1
: to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability : to subject (someone) to gaslighting
Yeah, I can repeat. If one side gives no Fs about arbitrary rules in a war but you follow each and every one - then you are not a good guy. You are a moron not deserving survival.
It doesn't mean that rape, genocide, torture and so on are fine, just as I said in the quoted post.
The stuff of me treating groups as groups is so old that I don't even want to repeat it all. A group, Gazans, did a horrible act of barbarity and now they face the consequences of the war they called on themselves. It is how groups and being a part of the group works. I have a small chance of getting Russian missile hitting my head in few minutes, in part, because of collective actions and decisions done by all Ukrainians (of which I am damn proud).
Note that Gazans are also proud of the October 7th attack (and decades of terrorist attacks on random civilians), you can't be proud of something your people did and claim no responsibility for it.
And yes, happy well-fed faces of people who complain about the low quality of MRE from people while claiming famine are annoying and disgusting. My nation has a history of a horrible man-made famine and this is a sensitive topic for me. My grandmother would kick my ass for throwing away anything remotely edible because she survived a real famine, people who knew hunger treat food in a rather special way.
And you know the main thing? My moral code may be disgusting and wrong but it has something yours lack - It is consistent. I judge all people of all ideologies by the same damned metric.
What you don’t understand is nuance. My criticism of one side does not mean I support the other side, whether wholeheartedly, half-heartedly, or a teeny tiny bawhair, and it does not mean I don’t support the side I’m criticizing. It’s utterly moronic that you have thought this the entire time we’ve been posting here to the point you think I’m anti-Semitic.
The fourth paragraph is an addendum to the previous commentar, suggesting that there are war crimes you can’t justify - again, implying there are those you can justify, if the most pressing of which is “they did it first!”
I like how you provided an example of gaslighting by gaslighting me in your remonstration.
QuoteWhat you don’t understand is nuance. My criticism of one side does not mean I support the other side, whether wholeheartedly, half-heartedly, or a teeny tiny bawhair, and it does not mean I don’t support the side I’m criticizing. It’s utterly moronic that you have thought this the entire time we’ve been posting here to the point you think I’m anti-Semitic.
When criticism of side A in a conflict is disproportional to criticism of side B, it does mean that you are on side B and anti-side A.
Also, If I would say something like "I do not condone the ISIS attack on the Moscow Concert Hall, BUT, you know, Russia has been colonizing Muslim lands for centuries, murdered scores of Muslims in Syria, kills Russian Muslim by disproportionally mobilizing them to war, is largely xenophobic to... yada, yada, yada" I would, in fact, condone the attack on that Concert Hall with the brutal murder of random civilians.
Despite all my "love" towards Russians and my high tolerance for various tactics of violent resistance, It would be hypocritical and against the very basics of my morality. Note that the analogy is imperfect because most Muslims of Russia see this attack as a disgusting act of barbarity, while (pro-)Palestinians have somewhat different opinions on the October 7 (and similar, smaller-scale acts) while claiming the moral high ground.
PS. Good job calling Ukrainian soldiers who defend their land with effective tactics disgusting just because they don't follow some minor rules of the Geneva Conventions which are completely ignored by Russia. They dare to wage war how people waged those wars for centuries.
The fourth paragraph is an addendum to the previous commentar, suggesting that there are war crimes you can’t justify - again, implying there are those you can justify, if the most pressing of which is “they did it first!”
Helping win the war is a justification, considering the cost of losing. Targeting medics is banned because it increases the casualties of war disproportionate to its benefit (i.e., the number of wounded that will return to battle.) However, if the other side has decided to kill your medics and inflict maximum casualties? Then they should absolutely not be afforded any such courtesy. Reducing one side's casualties at the expense of the other is a farce.
Maybe a parent or teacher will stop the mean Russians by putting them in a time-out? Just don't shoot their medics! That's as bad as Russia's targeting of schools!
(And as to Israel, there's a clear distinction between bombing an area after attempting to warn the residents, versus firing rockets off randomly without any care as to where they're going to come down.)
No, targeting medics is verboten because they’re non-combatants, as likely are the wounded (or dead) they are transporting.
Where do you draw the line with “helping win the war”?
It’s almost as though the Geneva Convention and its like were brought to bear in order to prevent the victor of every war essentially being decided in a race to the bottom to see which side can out atrocity the other(s).
I don’t think I equated them? I mean sure they’d both be branded war criminals, but Stephen Bradbury is a gold medal Olympian, not really on the same level as… pfft, let’s say Michael Phelps, is he?
Ah, did they give the same warning to the three Israeli hostages they shot, who they were there ostensibly to rescue? You know, the ones that came out shirtless with a white flag (surely I don’t have to remind you what the international symbol of surrender is?) with Hebrew writing on it while also shouting in Hebrew? Avoiding shit like this is why things like perfidy and not shooting on medics are war crimes.
No, targeting medics is verboten because they’re non-combatants, as likely are the wounded (or dead) they are transporting.
Yet both were deployed into a war zone to assist the war effort. They aren't strictly civilians, being in uniform. They're even given weapons that, if wielded, removes their protected status.Where do you draw the line with “helping win the war”?
The Geneva Convention is a good guideline. However, if you're shooting at medics, your side clearly doesn't draw the line there. Why would your own medics be different? You're sending them into combat while loudly proclaiming that medics are to be shot. It's understood that your medics are effectively considered soldiers.
Certain lines tend to be a bit more obvious. Mistreating POWs actually does the opposite of helping you win, for example. Not only were they already out of the fight and useful as a bargaining chip; now your enemy is less likely to surrender.
Crimes against humanity is a very clear distinction. The Geneva Convention already separates these above war crimes.
It’s almost as though the Geneva Convention and its like were brought to bear in order to prevent the victor of every war essentially being decided in a race to the bottom to see which side can out atrocity the other(s).
Written by the victors, of course, who were willing to engage in much of the same until the war ended in their favor.
I don’t think I equated them? I mean sure they’d both be branded war criminals, but Stephen Bradbury is a gold medal Olympian, not really on the same level as… pfft, let’s say Michael Phelps, is he?
And some war crimes are more justifiable than others. (Provided the Rubicon has been crossed, they're still crimes, etc.)
Ah, did they give the same warning to the three Israeli hostages they shot, who they were there ostensibly to rescue? You know, the ones that came out shirtless with a white flag (surely I don’t have to remind you what the international symbol of surrender is?) with Hebrew writing on it while also shouting in Hebrew? Avoiding shit like this is why things like perfidy and not shooting on medics are war crimes.
Is that Israel's policy towards hostages, or did a group of IDF soldiers get trigger happy after Hamas kept using recordings of hostages to do that perfidy thing and lure IDF into ambushes?
on the one hand solidly claim you’re cool with Ukrainians committing war crimes (so long as Russia does them too)
It is exactly why I am not on the Palestinian side in this war, they commit way more horrendous war crimes than Israel....how many points are you allocating for various acts? I wouldn't even know how to add up the relative culpabilities (and when to starting counting[1]), but suspect it's nowhere near "way more", but a quite strong tally 'earned' both ways. (Gleeful support of both sides' extremes, andvdefinite "no <foo> left alive in 'our' territory" attitudes.)
Indeed, what do you do if your enemy goes over the line? You’ve already justified that it’s okay to commit light war crimes, what’s taking an extra step going to change really? Or when you commit a light war crime because you were told your enemy did and later find out they didn’t?
As to the rest though, fighting to the death isn’t the only option. You don’t even need to kill someone to take them out of the fight, or even do a job of psychological warfare without firing a shot. People desert in the face of an enemy that will either kill you, or capture you, torture you, then kill you. That works even better than killing them because they’re still alive to tell everyone why they ran away, and you can paint your enemy as cowards for it.
Justifying war crimes because they have been the committed against you can just as easily be justified because they might be committed against you.
So, to answer the question I imagine you thought was really clever, despite rescuing the hostages being one of the reasons they went to war in the first place, they apparently didn’t have a policy in place for dealing with encountering hostages in the field.
I guess it’s better to look incompetent than murderous, huh?
Things may become 'messy', in wartime, but there are hard and fast obligations to punish grave violations (which go well beyond accidents, carelessness or misunderstandings).
If targetting civilians because some of the civilians celebrated war crimes but are not active combatants is justified, then Russia targetting Ukrainian Civilians since there are those who would celebrate Ukrainian War Crimes is justified.
Their personal beliefs or politics don't matter, a civilian is a civilian. To believe otherwise is to make the meaning of civilian and combatant a meaningless distinction.
ACTUAL war crimes which are crimes according to basic humanist morality: torture, rape, genocide, using civilians as meatshields, and any other actions that bring unnecessary or excessive suffering. With stuff that would be widely considered criminal even by people of medieval ages and before. Those are not fine because the other side does it. BTW, the losing side usually doesn't have many opportunities to commit most of those.
To argue about "light war crimes" (for "military necessity") in this context is also a complete red herring here, because Israel is committing those along with the pretty big kinda inexcusable ones
To argue about "light war crimes" (for "military necessity") in this context is also a complete red herring here, because Israel is committing those along with the pretty big kinda inexcusable ones
You assert.
Just to address the starvation one, could Israel really stop a UN food convoy that was determined to get through? Are they going to start a war against the UN to prevent it? Seems like there's more than just an IDF checkpoint standing in the way of food relief.
I'm sorry, this is insane -- are you faulting the UN for not barging food trucks through Israeli checkpoints like the Fast and the Furious so they can get shot to death?
Bumber, I don’t know why you feel the need to move the goalposts by reframing questions and ignoring points, and I’m unwilling to speculate.
Your initial support of Strongpoint was predicated on his assertion that light war crimes are effective means of winning a war and thus justifiable, even if you want to draw a line at committing “more serious” war crimes. However, you can’t then suggest that an enemy doing worse things is less justifiable because they are also, presumably as an active participant, trying to win the war.
You can’t commit crimes then get upset someone else is committing crimes to the same end.
There is no "war against the UN" that can happen and Israel already routinely ignores what the UN says. If the UN said that and tried anything, Israel would simply shoot at food trucks trying to force their way through the checkpoints, and then certain people would say that it's completely justified, because they tried to force themselves through the checkpoints. Tell me you wouldn't be saying exactly that, Bumber.
Yeah, exactly. So don't commit war crimes and don't get war crimed.
Yeah, exactly. So don't commit war crimes and don't get war crimed.
He says, while justifying war crimes…
We’re just going round in circles son.
This war would be less horrible if both sides agreed to not do this (and it is what Geneva and other conventions are all about) but they don't.
PS. Good job calling Ukrainian soldiers who defend their land with effective tactics disgusting just because they don't follow some minor rules of the Geneva Conventions which are completely ignored by Russia. They dare to wage war how people waged those wars for centuries.
Advocate is a strong match synonym, soooo…
Advocate is a strong match synonym, soooo…
Yet "argue for" is a weak match, for some reason. Strongpoint is clearly rationalizing more than campaigning or championing.
I mean if you want to argue semantics we’ve got condone, defend, favour, support, validate, and warrant as other strong matches alongside rationalise.
This is getting boring though, the going in circles.
Whataboutism.Things may become 'messy', in wartime, but there are hard and fast obligations to punish grave violations (which go well beyond accidents, carelessness or misunderstandings).Tell us more about how Russia is being punished hard and fast for its violations.
If they haven't always been, this is a failing of those charged to uphold and comply with the Convention, not any wishy-washiness of its own.
No, the UN can tell Israel that they will be letting the trucks through. It's just, maybe they're slightly concerned that the truck is going to be hit by artillery shells, etc., in an active war zone. Or raided by Hamas. (You know, that other participant in the war.)
4) While there is certain excessive hate in Ukrainian society I hope to never live to see a day when Ukrainians will drag a half-naked body of a likely raped to death Russian woman over the streets of some Ukrainian city with crowds celebrating a bloody raid into a Russian city. If I do, I'll consider a different self-identification. Don't compare my nation to... those people with a culture of institutionalized hate.
4) While there is certain excessive hate in Ukrainian society I hope to never live to see a day when Ukrainians will drag a half-naked body of a likely raped to death Russian woman over the streets of some Ukrainian city with crowds celebrating a bloody raid into a Russian city. If I do, I'll consider a different self-identification. Don't compare my nation to... those people with a culture of institutionalized hate.
Uh-huh, and if Ukrainians were like Hamas or Israel in tactics against Russian cities, I'd be advocating only providing humanitarian aid and not military aid. Guess what my stance on Israel/Gaza is?
Both sides deserve humanitarian aid, neither side is deserving of military aid. Hamas may be worse than Israel in many ways, but they already don't get military aid from the West. Israel do get military aid from the West. That's the issue I take. That innocent families and innocent medics are killed (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286) with Western-supplied bullets.
Seems like every time I leave this forum for the weekend this thread blows up into a massive shit fest of arguing.ikr, I've been abstaining from discussing this conflict (everywhere, not just on Bay12, though overall I mostly support Palestine) but I still read this thread out of morbid curiosity.
I'm still reading the thread partly because of curiosity and partly because the unnotify button doesn't work.Seems like every time I leave this forum for the weekend this thread blows up into a massive shit fest of arguing.ikr, I've been abstaining from discussing this conflict (everywhere, not just on Bay12, though overall I mostly support Palestine) but I still read this thread out of morbid curiosity.
1) Israel is a democratic, multiethnic, multireligious, almost secular, LGBT-tolerant, West-aligned country with a sizeable opposition that wishes to make the country more liberal, a military ally of the US in the region.I'm not going to deny that (from my natural perspective/world-view) Israel is a diamond in the rough, regionally. As far as my subscribed-to ideas of culture, it is far less 'foreign' in all kinds of ways, but looking not as a local comparison (however well I could do that) and instead being critical in terms of the world that I (we) might know best:
2) Their enemies are fascist militarists, a theocracy with a culture dreaming of genocide, strictly monoethnic, they execute LGBT people on the spot, hate America and "the West" almost as much as Israel, and have no meaningful opposition that is remotely democratic.
"fascist militarists, a theocracy with a culture dreaming of genocide, strictly monoethnic, they execute LGBT people on the spot, hate America and "the West" almost as much as ["they hate", sic] Israel, and have no meaningful opposition that is remotely democratic"I'm not going to say that there's not substantial truth in that applying to their regional opponents (neighbours and beyond), albeit that you might tar some undeserving areas of life with an overwide and simplistic brush. I'm not here to categorise the whole of the Middle East, so instead:
"The world is wide," she says. "Africa is big. Canada is big. The world will absorb the people of Gaza. How we do it? We encourage it. Palestinians in Gaza, the good ones, will be enabled. I'm not saying forced, I say enabled because they want to go."
Whataboutism.
And already allowed for in the very next sentence that you cut off, even if I hadn't actually considered this point would even be raised:If they haven't always been, this is a failing of those charged to uphold and comply with the Convention, not any wishy-washiness of its own.
It's not like due process (https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and) hasn't been attempted for (some) Russian war crimes.
...not that I imagine you're satisfied with any of that.
Both sides deserve humanitarian aid, neither side is deserving of military aid. Hamas may be worse than Israel in many ways, but they already don't get military aid from the West. Israel do get military aid from the West. That's the issue I take. That innocent families and innocent medics are killed (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286) with Western-supplied bullets.
What good is any of that? Putin isn't going to be prosecuted because he has nukes. The UN will write him a strongly-worded letter as he continues to commit war crimes. Ukraine will be expected to be constrained and fight fair.You basically asked why nobody was doing anything about Russia.
You basically asked why nobody was doing anything about Russia.
Israel directly strikes three trucks carrying food aid from World Central Kitchen separated by several kilometers, clearly marked, coordinated with the Israeli military, in three separate precision strikes, all at the same time. (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/)
Is there something more blatant? Shit, there are Western media outlets and investigative journalists all saying this. Waiting to hear the apologists to come marching back into this thread to say how Bellingcat along with World Central Kitchen are Hamas information agents.
Even if it's not something the higher ups authorised, it's possible that someone further down the chain decided to make an executive decision and perform the strikes for that reason. I can't say I think that'd be likely, but it's possible.
Waiting to hear the apologists to come marching back into this thread to say how Bellingcat along with World Central Kitchen are Hamas information agents.I feel bad for you, honestly.
Earlier reports (I forget about how long ago[1]) were that the IDF were convinced that a particular Hamas target was on board the convoy. That same report said that he absolutely wasn't there, after all, but someone was clearly more convinced that he was than of the sancity of those "he was riding with". I wasn't aware, until now that the vehicles were so separated, so sounds like they also thought it was a "shell game" and were happy enough to strike all three targets knowing that two were not even "accidental collateral damage" but total misses which would include purely innocent victims.
Not saying I approve (definitely not, and yet another nasty own-goal for their reputation), but sounds like someone really ranked the guy they apparently ended up missing anyway. I just wonder if they still think it was worth the try/are still looking for another window of opportunity...
(And I might be outdated even on the above report.)
[1] Wasn't this all yesterday? The bodies had already been recovered and brought out, a while ago now. I almost posted to break this myself, but the forum seemed very quiet, maybe you were all asleep? (Late nights + early mornings and a rather convoluted day very much not paying attention to anything as mundane as news, so far, has distorted my impressions of time a bit, even whether I slept since.)
Really though the only difference in this particular strike is that Westerners died so the international uproar is a bit louder.
Do you have any links about reports of Hamas being present (or not)? I’d like to read about it. Apparently not enough to try looking for it myself, it still.I've gone back through my browsing history, and even scanned the relevent news-site's timelines. Inbetween all the mountains of related/unrelated information I can't find the text I remember, in that it was a report from a regional newspaper, and now I know I was reading this yesterday so it would have been a Tuesday-AM publication hot on the heels of Monday's incident. Might have been an early news report and not a web-page.
Haaretz quoted one Israeli defense source as saying that "the units in the field decide to launch attacks without any preparation, in cases that have nothing to do with protecting our forces."[3] Further citing Israeli defense sources, Haaretz reported that the destroyed cars "were clearly marked on the roof and sides" as belonging to the World Central Kitchen, and had "travelled along a route preapproved and coordinated with the IDF", but "the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route ordered the drone operators to attack", due to "suspicion that a terrorist was travelling with the convoy"; the supposed terrorist was "an armed man" in the aid truck being escorted by the cars to a food warehouse in Deir al-Balah; the cars had left the aid truck behind at the warehouse, and the "armed man did not leave the warehouse", but Israeli strikes from an Elbit Hermes 450 drone were still ordered on the cars.[3]
Meh. Gaza was already receiving aid before the war. The bombing certainly has them worse off.
The issue is that Palestinians suffering is a positive for Hamas, as it helps them radicalize. And Hamas has its own supply lines (stemming from Iran.) Intercepted aid is just gravy.
The most valuable thing to Hamas is the ceasefire. They get more freedom to move around, all while Israel frees their imprisoned operatives.
edit: this is @Strongpoint (see end 'PPE' for my slightly surprising response to Bumber!) ...the problem with that (the absolute shunning of Gazans) is that you're assuming that the whole of the Gazan population is a "Warrior Race", equally culpable and every man-jack (and woman-jill, and child-jojo) determined to fight, fight, fight as part of an genetically ingrained martial philosophy that goes against all 'civilised' reason.Have you looked at polling from Gaza?
Actual scarcity would not be beneficial to Hamas. They need food and, especially, fuel, too. They also need people under their rule not to be desperate enough to riot against their rule and demand surrender.Well, the Hamas leadership is living safely in comfort in Qatar and seem to care as little about their rank-and-file as they do about their civilians, who barely rank above Israelis.
Note that I am very unhappy with what Israel is doing, too. They should have established a proper occupation of what they managed to capture and start normalizing people's lives there. What Israel is actually doing is like leaving Germany in 1945 in a state of anarchy with some limited military presence that would hunt the remaining Nazi and random Germans of fighting age who could be Nazi.This goes to what I mean when I say that the "international community" want this conflict to fester. It's clear that HAMAS is a terrorist organization that must be dismantled if there is ever to be peace. It's also clear that, due to decades of built-up resentment over the Gazan popular support for HAMAS attacks on Israeli civilians, Israel cannot be trusted to do this. We, as in the west and particularly NATO, have a long history of intervention in situations just like this; it would even be a perfect case for a UN peacekeeping force. But there's no will to actually solve it.
Then again, I doubt that any deradicalization of Gaza is possible if a huge chunk of the world has the opinion of "No, you are not radicals, your views are not evil, you are victims and oppressed people." Imagine Germans hearing that post WW2. Palestinian national ideas won't improve anytime soon.
Actual scarcity would not be beneficial to Hamas. They need food and, especially, fuel, too. They also need people under their rule not to be desperate enough to riot against their rule and demand surrender.Hamas may be effectively unopposed because they've become good at deflecting local opposition. Put yourself in someone else's sandals. Why would anyone riot against Hamas, if they're mostly seeing their suffering as being at the hands of Israel/etc? Or, if they're even a bit more informed, too busy just trying to survive? And between the totalitarian regime directly in your face with a smattering of armed men vs. the everpresent threat of being bombed from above if you even look like being an organised armed group (regardless of who you are arming against), what chance do you have?
If you mean in terms of 'general support for Hamas's position', I've dealt with that (actually, just done it more explicitly, above, but you won't have read that until just now). Because you can't be somehow saying that polls reveal that Gazans are, from birth, Klingons/Tyranids/Magog-and-slash-or-Nietzscheans and irredemably martial in nature.edit: this is @Strongpoint (see end 'PPE' for my slightly surprising response to Bumber!) ...the problem with that (the absolute shunning of Gazans) is that you're assuming that the whole of the Gazan population is a "Warrior Race", equally culpable and every man-jack (and woman-jill, and child-jojo) determined to fight, fight, fight as part of an genetically ingrained martial philosophy that goes against all 'civilised' reason.Have you looked at polling from Gaza?
PPE:I assumed that "genetically ingrained" was obviously retarded hyperbole. It doesn't matter whether it is from birth or not.If you mean in terms of 'general support for Hamas's position', I've dealt with that (actually, just done it more explicitly, above, but you won't have read that until just now). Because you can't be somehow saying that polls reveal that Gazans are, from birth, Klingons/Tyranids/Magog-and-slash-or-Nietzscheans and irredemably martial in nature.edit: this is @Strongpoint (see end 'PPE' for my slightly surprising response to Bumber!) ...the problem with that (the absolute shunning of Gazans) is that you're assuming that the whole of the Gazan population is a "Warrior Race", equally culpable and every man-jack (and woman-jill, and child-jojo) determined to fight, fight, fight as part of an genetically ingrained martial philosophy that goes against all 'civilised' reason.Have you looked at polling from Gaza?
Hamas may be effectively unopposed because they've become good at deflecting local opposition. Put yourself in someone else's sandals. Why would anyone riot against Hamas, if they're mostly seeing their suffering as being at the hands of Israel/etc? Or, if they're even a bit more informed, too busy just trying to survive? And between the totalitarian regime directly in your face with a smattering of armed men vs. the everpresent threat of being bombed from above if you even look like being an organised armed group (regardless of who you are arming against), what chance do you have?
You are separating HAMAS fighters from the population while they are a part of it.Conversely, you're painting everyone within spitting distance of Hamas as entirely being them.
I assumed that "genetically ingrained" was obviously retarded hyperbole. It doesn't matter whether it is from birth or not.Well, from me it would be, but from some people I don't at all know that it is.
What matters is that, even though HAMAS as an administrator is actually fairly unpopular [...]...ah, I thought you were saying "Had I seen the polls in which Hamas were actually popular, right now...", or similar. (I hadn't, but if you ask the right questions, or compare with the right alternative... Thr equivalent to asking whether you'd prefer Biden or Trump, and even those that find neither at all attractive as an option might still have a very definite opinion which they'd prefer.)
People there aren't blaming Israel for their suffering, they just hate Jews.How much do they hate Jews because of their suffering? Because they know what the IDF is currently doing, because they have been told what the IDF did before they were born, because they get taught what the founding of the state of Israel did to their ancestors, why they're here now.
Given that all the evidence is that they don't strongly blame Israel for their suffering, that's probably not it. It's impossible to say for sure (nobody just asks "why do you hate Jews?"), but it looks a lot more like they hate Jews for the same ethnoreligious reasons their ancestors did when those ancestors refused the UN two-state solution and declared war on Israel in the first place, then lost, leading to the present situation.QuotePeople there aren't blaming Israel for their suffering, they just hate Jews.How much do they hate Jews because of their suffering?
And of course, the supply of important war material like food, fuel, and medical supplies didn't stop. There only were calls for MORE aid to that side of the war. It is the main reason why HAMAS's rule didn't collapse yet.
How much do they hate Jews because of their suffering? Because they know what the IDF is currently doing, because they have been told what the IDF did before they were born, because they get taught what the founding of the state of Israel did to their ancestors, why they're here now.
They probably aren't told how their apparent oppressors were originally themselves refugees and escapees from a different kind of genocide. Or they disregard it and say that just know what their 'own' particular form of genocide feels like.
Yes, the reason Hamas is in power is that not enough people have been starved to death, not enough hospitals have been bombed, and not enough homes and shops have been razed and looted. Perhaps the IDF should rape and torture the whole lot of them so we can teach these Palestinian animals their "lesson," right?
Yes, the reason Hamas is in power is that not enough people have been starved to death, not enough hospitals have been bombed, and not enough homes and shops have been razed and looted. Perhaps the IDF should rape and torture the whole lot of them so we can teach these Palestinian animals their "lesson," right?What broke the fighting will of Japan or Germany in WWII? What broke the Southern fighting spirit in the American Civil War? What broke the spirit of the Tsarists in the Russian Civil War?
"I don't like when Nazi Germany razes cities, mass murders Jews, and employs slave labor."I really do feel bad for you.
"Why are you speaking in SLOGANS?"
Yes, the reason Hamas is in power is that not enough people have been starved to death, not enough hospitals have been bombed, and not enough homes and shops have been razed and looted. Perhaps the IDF should rape and torture the whole lot of them so we can teach these Palestinian animals their "lesson," right?What broke the fighting will of Japan or Germany in WWII? What broke the Southern fighting spirit in the American Civil War? What broke the spirit of the Tsarists in the Russian Civil War?
I'm starting to think the way to end most wars is to simply mandate that the actual soldiers from each side share a meal with each other and just, you know, get to know each other as people.That's incredibly naive.
The only way people can live with themselves after killing others is to convince themselves the "other" is not a person.
If you rely on one side simply beating the other into submission so they can no longer put up a retaliation so they sue for peace... you haven't really solved any problem.
"I don't like when Nazi Germany razes cities, mass murders Jews, and employs slave labor."Let me elaborate on this.
"Why are you speaking in SLOGANS?"
Your chosen reply to the concept of starving, raping, and looting in war is "terrorism is sometimes necessary"?Yes. All those things happen in war. Actually, you didn't mention raping at all, but that happens in war too, although it's usually more of a side consequence of the fact that soldiers aren't robots and you can never control them completely.
"I don't like when Nazi Germany razes cities, mass murders Jews, and employs slave labor."
"Why are you speaking in SLOGANS?"
I'm starting to think the way to end most wars is to simply mandate that the actual soldiers from each side share a meal with each other and just, you know, get to know each other as people.
Max forgets to mention that the Nazis in his hypothetical are also building settlements in lands claimed by the Jews, expanding them by confiscating land and resources from the Jews and fragmenting Jewish communities by building Nazi only roads, subjecting Jewish citizens to military law while the Nazis living among them live under Nazi civil law. All of this is in violation of international law - including the Geneva Convention - but the Nazis claim otherwise, even when the highest courts in Naziland also say they’re illegal.Since we're talking about Gaza, I didn't go into detail on the West Bank, no. Sure, the situation in the West Bank is far from ideal in many ways, but it's certainly fundamentally different from Gaza, and no worse than many other circumstances the western countries routinely tolerate around the world, including, for example, the Donbass, where Russian separatists considered themselves to be under Ukrainian occupation.
Consider two fathers, probably both just looking to make sure their kids are going to be OK, taught that the other guy is out to get them, when in reality they probably really are just like "wait, you're only 'trying to get me' because you think I'm 'trying to get you'? No man, really I just want to go to work and make sure my kid ends up better than I do!"Yeah, the truth is, the western liberalism that produces this way of thinking is honestly just a historical anomaly. Most people really just don't think like that. In many cases because they really are trying to get each other for some stupid ideological reason. You realize this over time as you meet people.
Well you gave a canned history of the conflict and said that the winning side tried to leave the other alone when that’s absolutely not the case. There were settlements in Gaza before Israel pulled out (literally dragging out the settlers in some cases) and the first arrests made under administrative detention were Gazan youths doing the horrible crime of being unemployed young men.No, the settlement came AFTER the Six Day War, after Israel annexed the regions, so that was in a different part of the timeline than "tried to leave the other alone". That may still be a little editorializing, as there are border disputes during that period where it's not clear who shot first, but the overall sentiment at the time seems to have been in that direction.
Intersettlement would only really work when there aren’t extremists calling for the blood and/or property of the other side. Unfortunately those are the people in charge on both sides. Until that changes (lol) nothing else will.As I said, it takes generations.
I'm actually of the opinion that intersettlement has already occurred, and is probably one of the chief causes of the war.
If two ethic communities intermarry, the patriarchs on both sides lose power. So the patriarchs on both sides attempt to kill anyone that might be in the middle, cutting both sides off for another generation. In fact, if you see how both Hamas and Israel have acted, they have both focused on killing anyone in the middle areas. In other words, they're killing off the people that have intermarried. The whole point of the war is the older generation killing off anyone in the younger generation that wants to bridge that gap.
And no, there is no Jewish presence in Gaza or West Bank. Any unarmed Jew will be lynched on the spot in both places. There is no concept of a "good Jew" there, even in some form of racist "good N". Even those Jews who hate Israel and want its destruction are not welcome in Palestine and WILL be killed. And settlers do not really interact with locals in non-violent ways.
You know, let me add something else. The main position I have in this thread, and I think Strongpoint would agree, is that there's this really widespread vague idea out there, including from some people here, that because Israel does and has done some bad things, the people there deserve to be attacked by Hamas. While many people certainly think that outright, even more have a tendency to allow, passively, that argument to lodge in their brains and color their thinking without acknowledgement. This is the thing I find appalling. The Israelis, even the ones who completely support their government doing bad things, don't deserve to be attacked by Hamas any more than the Palestinians, even the ones who completely support their quasi-government doing bad things, deserve to be attacked by Israel. And when you honestly compare the tactics of the two, Hamas really does come off the worse, not that it even matters much. Even if Israel stops doing bad things, Hamas will still want to eradicate Israelis. Israel, on the other hand, has historically shown again and again that they do not want to eradicate Palestinians, even if they don't like them very much. Hamas has clearly indicated they have no interest in any kind of two-state solution or even a ceasefire; Israel accepted a two-state solution that was more favorable to Palestine in the first place and has repeatedly acceded to ceasefires. As I keep pointing out, Israel wanting to be rid of neighbors who have shown them nothing but hostility over and over again bears an awful lot of resemblance to Ukraine and the Russians - yes, including the "settlements", just as Ukraine tried to encourage the Ukrainization of the Donbass. I just want to see these nuances acknowledged.
You can spend every other waking word reiterating that terrorist attacks against civilians are entirely unacceptable and entirely disconnected from the point and still Israel ride-or-diers will insist it is your unobservable, ephemeral, terrorist sympathies sequestered away in the crystal plane that makes you want fewer civilians to be massacred all the time.