Rogue One really did have a cool look. The aesthetics really supported the context of the events of the movie, you actually FEEL hemmed in by how crisp and orderly everything is, which matches the theme of Imperial oppression really well.
The visuals and designs of TFA and TLJ are just as equally likeable honestly. I've always been more concerned about what the new stuff DOES than what they look like, and they were all really darn serviceable.
I think that the reveal that Supreme Leader Smoke is actually a Kryptonian marks a new highpoint in the saga, and even surpases "I am your father". Really, merging SW with Marvel was a smart and logical move from Disney
Said in the other thread but I’ll put it here were it belongs: this film lacked hope, all the characters act with no goals beyond immediate survival. And lacked the courage of committing to a dire mood. You have this set of gungho dudes and dudette and smirky remarks basically just floating over the setting hardly being part of it.
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The point of this movie was 'good guys get their shit kicked in and desperately try to keep something alive', so that's kinda the whole point.
And no hope? Sure there was nothing through most of it, but did you leave before the last few minutes of the movie or are you just being hyperbolic?
And no hope? Sure there was nothing through most of it, but did you leave before the last few minutes of the movie or are you just being hyperbolic?
I'm pretty sure one of the themes of this movie is that you need to hope, regardless of whether hope gets rewarded.
"Hope is like the sun" and all that.
Ahahaha what the fuck was that.
I avoided spoilers but it have hit my ears that apparently new movie is terrible, but holy shit I have not realized how terrible it is. It's not a good Star Wars movie, not even a good movie, it's fucking terrible. I will never speak one more bad word about prequels, like, even Jar Jar was better design choice and was more grounded in Star Wars universe than this is.
EDIT:
Also, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA THIS IS JUST DISNEY SPITTING ON THE GRAVE ISIN'T IT HAHAHAHAHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCI1YIaLVIM). Obviously a spoiler.
Eh, I liked it. Leia was always supposed to be gifted with the force in the old Expanded Universe novels, so it seemed like a nice nod to that to me.Her being gifted doesn't have to manifest in dumb ways.
I'll admit, that scene could have been done better. That being said, my jaw dropped when Leia was sucked out into the vacuum of space the first time I watched. It felt both emotionally devastating, and because of Carrie Fisher's passing, also a bit like salt in a wound.So, you mean, the scene in a movie *gave you emotions*? That's so weird and out of place, movies giving people emotions, right? If anything, the Leia move felt like... pretty much bullshit move that serves no purpose other than to make it look like Leia did a thing in the movie too. I would have accepted her death because it would serve a purpose in the story - as much as Star Wars is noblebright, people can still die, and would also make previous scene where Ben hestiated from firing meaningful. Instead it's just cheap "you thought she died but then FORCE MAGIC and she is fine buy the figurine Leia is badass", and now they have to fucking worry how to kill her off in next movie since Carrie Fisher is dead.
I was both relieved and really confused when she lived, I really didn't want Princess Leia to go out in such an undignified and tragic way.
Eh, I liked it. Leia was always supposed to be gifted with the force in the old Expanded Universe novels, so it seemed like a nice nod to that to me.Her being gifted doesn't have to manifest in dumb ways.I'll admit, that scene could have been done better. That being said, my jaw dropped when Leia was sucked out into the vacuum of space the first time I watched. It felt both emotionally devastating, and because of Carrie Fisher's passing, also a bit like salt in a wound.So, you mean, the scene in a movie *gave you emotions*? That's so weird and out of place, movies giving people emotions, right? If anything, the Leia move felt like... pretty much bullshit move that serves no purpose other than to make it look like Leia did a thing in the movie too. I would have accepted her death because it would serve a purpose in the story - as much as Star Wars is noblebright, people can still die, and would also make previous scene where Ben hestiated from firing meaningful. Instead it's just cheap "you thought she died but then FORCE MAGIC and she is fine buy the figurine Leia is badass", and now they have to fucking worry how to kill her off in next movie since Carrie Fisher is dead.
I was both relieved and really confused when she lived, I really didn't want Princess Leia to go out in such an undignified and tragic way.
Speaking of that, what the insane fuck was the goddamn pink haired Mary Sue Leia-lite (and to lesser extent the big-nosed Leia-lite)? What was her purpose in the plot other than to be condenscending and basically incompetent, as she didin't tell anyone of her plan *for no good reason* which directly lead to said plain failing miserably. What the fuck is with all those random-ass characters that appear out of nowhere and suddenly we are supposed to think they're important or something, just to get them killed next scene/movie? Is this all just to get more characters pushed into merch?
What's with all those random dumb gags? The whole Finn intro with him banging his head and in leaky suit, and all those goddamn fucking completly retarded and out of place jokes? The fucking irons on the ship? Great fucking joke, wow. I get it, comic relief is a thing, but I'd prefer if comic relief didin't came out as forced. For instance, initial Luke Yoda-ism was pretty decent, as it was a nice callback to Yoda, and was somewhat justified by him being an old grumpy hermit now.
I mean right, old Star Wars had a fuckton of background characters who then had their own stories developed, but none of them felt like they got forcefully inserted and got too much spotlight for no real reason, it felt natural and consistent, meanwhile in the Mouse Ears Trilogy so far it has been incredibly hard to form any sort of attachement to any character. Ironically enough, the one of more popular characters at the time was the memetic TR-8R who was one of few characters to follow old scheme of "we find which characters people like and only then we merch that shit".
I'm not even starting to complain about the implications that constant use of hyperdriving where noone has yet hyperdrived in those movies create (why the fuck even bother with guns, just hypedrive small ships into big ones), curving blasters, gravity bombs in space (although I must say I liked the idea of B-17s in space, but the way it was actually pulled off... eh), the apparent lack of any other political entity in Galaxy than First Order (was entire New Republic contained in that one system that got blown up? Where the fuck is everyone? Why does it seem like the First Order which formally is just bunch of paramilitary dudes is more powerful that Empire ever was?) and other shit because that's just nitpicking.
There's still a lot of Legends stuff that can be worked into canon, that's actually one of the most exciting prospects for me.
I'll admit, that scene could have been done better. That being said, my jaw dropped when Leia was sucked out into the vacuum of space the first time I watched. It felt both emotionally devastating, and because of Carrie Fisher's passing, also a bit like salt in a wound.
I was both relieved and really confused when she lived, I really didn't want Princess Leia to go out in such an undignified and tragic way.
Like... I don't get when people "just enjoy it for what it is", would you just enjoy an undercooked steak or raw eggs for what they are? How about wet concrete? A bed with no mattress?
I think that the reveal that Supreme Leader Smoke is actually a Kryptonian marks a new highpoint in the saga, and even surpases "I am your father". Really, merging SW with Marvel was a smart and logical move from Disney
::)
For what it's worth, I liked it last than the last two, think the Marvalization argument is ridiculous on its face (last I checked there was no shiny bullshit at the end to cater to a sequel, people actually died, and the good guys didn't win), and find that this thread isn't going to convince anyone to change their minds so much as it's going to spiral into some nonsensical argument that inevitably gets so personal that the thread is locked.I like Marvel movies. I dislike new Star Wars.
Hyperdrive suicide: Ships are expensive to produce. What you really want would be a coil gun that then sends the projectile into hyperspace. Bonus, you can shell a planet from star systems away giving your enemies no warning.Yeah, basically. Hyperspace torpedoes. Get an X-Wing, replace the cockpit with remote control or something and hyperspace that thing into enemy ships weak points.
Lack of Political Entity: I seem to the New Republic was the only other power, and they had disbanded their military. That's the reason why the 'Resistance' was needed.Did literally 100% of Empire remnants joined up with First Order? Where the fuck are Hutt Cartels gone? Historically Republic didin't have military for a lot of their existence, but they had Judicial Forces, they had fleet, they had ships, who the fuck in their sane mind signed the complete disarmament of Republic when First Order was a thing? Like, what the complete and utter incompetence that comes from the "good guys" all the goddamn time?
I thought the fleet got blasted by the Starkiller attack in ep 7?So their entire fleet, their entire
I thought the fleet got blasted by the Starkiller attack in ep 7?
I thought the fleet got blasted by the Starkiller attack in ep 7?
Nope, that was the capital system, that for some reason is constantly moved across the galaxy causing huge monetary and bureaucratic waste as everything needed to run the government is constantly shifted around. The actual fleet itself did not exist, because the Republic, simply put, did not have any military at all.
He transcended the inherent flaw in the philosophy of the Sith, the hypocrisy that embracing the dark side for your passion destroys that passion. Instead, he's embraced the dark side for...nothing. The void, the heady pure nihilism that can allow something new and unconnected to the bullshit of Empire and Republic to grow.
I mean, my god, George Lucas catches so much flak. The man is a literal genius.
Luke suddenly getting a haircut, and becoming 10 years younger was where it started in my case. I'm not sure if I was consciously thinking astral projection yet at that point.
Rey turns out to not be some dumb fucking chosen one of prophecy repeat, but is just a person who has taken charge of their own fate.But she is. She is magically good at everything she does, everyone likes her and whatnot. Being a chosen one doesn't require a prophercy, just requires a writer to make one character objectively "best" character. Whole "Wound in The Force" theory be damned, that is still her being exceptional due to, for now, no apparent reason.
Snoke is some shlub who got where he was by abusing the quick and easy of the dark side, and yet was raising Kylo Ren to be a synthesis of both light and darkness and also then gets fucking destroyed without so much as a fight.Snoke is some complete noone. Nothing is really known about him, which was fine in the previous movie, as we all expected an explanation in this one. But then he just died. He is just random big evil with no connection to previous movies. It's as if there was suddenly new LoTR trilogy set after original one where there is crazy new powerful wizard named Snort and then he just dies.
Poe being a reckless absolute individual Hard Man Making Hard Choices is a bad thing, because when you are operating as a group rebellion disruptive heroes who think they're invincible get everyone killed.It's a war, people die, and the problem is what Poe does works. It's the "Pink Hair Sue Commander" that for no good reason didin't tell anyone her plan, which directly led to everything going badly. If you notice, when Poe is being told that they in fact have a plan, he thinks it will work. In his mind, all he did was trying to save everything because after Leia went down there was apparently no plan, and without one they would be dead.
The New Republic's "goodness" is functionally evil itself, because it plunges the galaxy straight back into a genocidal war after working so hard to get out of the last one.You mean New Republic stupidity? This is something that hurts me the most probably, believing that New Republic, and Mon Mothma and basically everyone except Leia believed in this crazy stupid idea of "disband our entire military, when Imperial Remnants see we did that they will disband their entire military too". This shit is the satirical propaganda that people apply to real life anti-gun movement, except New Republic took it seriously. Even during the longest time Old Republic didin't have an army, they had Jedi, they had Juicidal Force, they had goddamn Navy. New doesn't have anything, and First Order be damned, there were dozens of other political entites that would attack them for profit, Hutt Cartels and various pirates from the top of the head.
And then there's Kylo Ren. Oh god, Kylo Ren. Back in TFA I thought his motive for killing Han was one of the best things about the film, because it was a villain motivation like that of Berserk's Griffith with weight and some scariness behind it. Kill the past is the theme of the whole film and what it intends to do for the franchise, and in this Kylo fucking embodies it. He gets it. He understands the endless cycle and wants now not just to sever his personal ties, but everyone's ties to the bloated past of the Star Wars galaxy. He transcended the inherent flaw in the philosophy of the Sith, the hypocrisy that embracing the dark side for your passion destroys that passion. Instead, he's embraced the dark side for...nothing. The void, the heady pure nihilism that can allow something new and unconnected to the bullshit of Empire and Republic to grow. And if the third movie in this trilogy in any way involves Kylo Ren using the First Order to crush the rest of the forces in the galaxy before turning it on itself and blowing up their dumb superweapon without a fight, I will endure any number of emo teen references in retaliation for my love of him as a villain.
He transcended the inherent flaw in the philosophy of the Sith, the hypocrisy that embracing the dark side for your passion destroys that passion. Instead, he's embraced the dark side for...nothing. The void, the heady pure nihilism that can allow something new and unconnected to the bullshit of Empire and Republic to grow.
That's a fascinating take on Kylo's motivation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he does still spout the whole "order and control" rhetoric that Vader used as a justification for his evil, but I'd love to see more of your idea implemented in the next movie. Embracing evil for evil's sake, as opposed to any sort of "greater good" or other excuses.
Also, the FTL suicide jump was way cooler than the low-power DS shots or the destruction of the Death Stars. I got chills seeing the mountainous story roadblock of Star Destroyers just...disintegrate under the power of it, black space turned white in total silence.The FTL suicide jump indeed looked cool, but it has heavy implication as to why nobody goddamn did that before (setting aside that to this point there were explanations in lore that this wouldn't work, but obviously they aren't canon anymore), considering it's apparently the single best way of tacking space combat due to sheer power, not to mention range. Why does nobody use warp torpedoes? Just gut an X-Wing from everything except engines and warp drive, replace the cockpit with remote guidance and lug that shit at enemy ships.
I was fond of the "subtle" anticapitalism of rich people playing both the Republic and the First Order while living it up on a planet they stole.Nothing subtle about it.
Within its own laws and physics and literary rules, the Star Wars universe is pretty much a blank slate. And man, why exactly do you think this opens up a whole new universe? There is nowhere to go from here! Whatever they do, it will be a serious disconnect from the both the trilogy and the series as a whole.Precisely. EU is dead, and it was what had some of the best stories around, which is also my big issue with new movies. EU died for this, and the quality of non-existant EU movies aside, they would at least have much better source material that's consistent with Star Wars.
Perhaps even worse than that, whatever comes NEXT is certainly not going to be any good. Disney truly is Marvelizing Star Wars. And while this is going to step on a lot of people's toes, on the whole, Marvel movies... are bad. Disney doesn't care about good stories. They're not good at making stories.I like Marvel movies. While they aren't the pinnacle of movie-making, some of them are visibly worse than other, but they are decently fun, most of them have some original ideas for themselves and most importantly, they are mostly consistent. I do not have to watch a movie and feel like it in some way contradicts everything that I have known about the MCU. Meanwhile in a way new Star Wars do exactly the opposite. They take the source material and balantly disregard it to fit in more "cool" factors, more forced ideas and more corporationalism. MCU might be a product, but it's decently machined and produced product that keeps in line with other products of it's brand, while new Star Wars is just sticking Star Wars brand onto something that clearly doesn't work as Star Wars.
- Disney seems stuck with the formula of copying the first trilogy and changing things just enough to avoid being accused of outright plagiarism
I thought what the rebel general did made sense. She only did the suicide-thing once the empire saw the resistance evacuate and started blowing them up, which only occured because the rebellious teenage schmucks basically told the empire what the plan was. How the empire was not going to notice the evacuation vessels leaving was a bit dubious, but Leia seemed to believe it, so its probably canon. And the insurgency on the ship only started when she explained/formulated the "run away" plan.I dunno. I seem to recall that Poe and everyone did things against her because she didin't tell them anything about the plan, and just told them to, IIRC, keep faith, which in their situation sounds as good as "I have no fucking idea what to so I'll just try the thing that will explictly not help which is run away into space on transports". Poe had no idea the transports were cloaked, nor that they were headed for nearby planet, in his, and viewers, eyes, she was just giving away whole Resistance as ducks to shoot.
I dunno, the "sudden extreme boost in speed" thing sort of helps.IIRC, this doesn't break canon. As far as I'm concerned, the explanation was that when you hyperdrive into something, you explode (or rather vapourize or something, due to particle interacting with each other), but the thing you hyperdrive into not really. IIRC, hyperspace has a "shadow" of everything, which is why majority of the hyperdrive problem is having a computer to do calculations to not hit anything on the way there, also mind you, the thing doesn't even really have to be real, as Immobilizers and Interdictors just project a gravity well and thus stop any ship from entering hyperspace and pull ships already in hyperspace into realspace. That thing was already very strained in recent times, with Falcon hyperdriving almost into Starkillers base and there were cases (Clone Wars, IIRC) of hyperdriving from inside planets atmosphere, but eh.
But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
But she is. She is magically good at everything she does, everyone likes her and whatnot. Being a chosen one doesn't require a prophercy, just requires a writer to make one character objectively "best" character. Whole "Wound in The Force" theory be damned, that is still her being exceptional due to, for now, no apparent reason.I don't know where this perception of Rey as a Mary Sue comes from. She's good at everything? No she's not, her one big accomplishment is partially self-training her Force powers...which she does by using the Dark Side. The side that's supposed to be quick and easy? Everybody likes her? Who are these people? Poe hardly interacts with her and Finn just about ditches her in TFA. Luke goes from thinking she's a stupid fangirl to a darkside dabbler timebomb. Leia is like, polite to her, I guess. The only character I remember explicitly liking her is Chewbacca, which gets her some side points with Han since they need some more crew who aren't in the habit of pissing off Wookies.
Snoke is some complete noone. Nothing is really known about him, which was fine in the previous movie, as we all expected an explanation in this one. But then he just died. He is just random big evil with no connection to previous movies. It's as if there was suddenly new LoTR trilogy set after original one where there is crazy new powerful wizard named Snort and then he just dies.You mean like exactly what happened in The Hobbit films? I don't think there's much explanation needed really. Much as Rey has no special parents, Snoke needs no special past. Fuck it. He's a Palpatine wannabe who forced (pun intended) his way to the top of an Empire splinter. What more do you need to know?
It's a war, people die, and the problem is what Poe does works. It's the "Pink Hair Sue Commander" that for no good reason didin't tell anyone her plan, which directly led to everything going badly. If you notice, when Poe is being told that they in fact have a plan, he thinks it will work. In his mind, all he did was trying to save everything because after Leia went down there was apparently no plan, and without one they would be dead.
You mean New Republic stupidity? This is something that hurts me the most probably, believing that New Republic, and Mon Mothma and basically everyone except Leia believed in this crazy stupid idea of "disband our entire military, when Imperial Remnants see we did that they will disband their entire military too". This shit is the satirical propaganda that people apply to real life anti-gun movement, except New Republic took it seriously. Even during the longest time Old Republic didin't have an army, they had Jedi, they had Juicidal Force, they had goddamn Navy. New doesn't have anything, and First Order be damned, there were dozens of other political entites that would attack them for profit, Hutt Cartels and various pirates from the top of the head.Consider where the New Republic is coming from. The galaxy has a generation under the thumb of an extremely militant and human supremacist Empire, one which crushed whole worlds and centralized all true power in the hands of one Sith Master, as far as he could make possible. The New Republic wants to avoid that as much as possible. They want to be all decentralized and with as few military forces as is reasonable, so that nobody can take control of them like Palpatine did the Clone Army. Most of the worlds in the New Republic are going to agree to this because if they're the primary power in the galaxy but no one element of the New Republic is individually powerful enough to take over, there can be peace.
The FTL suicide jump indeed looked cool, but it has heavy implication as to why nobody goddamn did that before (setting aside that to this point there were explanations in lore that this wouldn't work, but obviously they aren't canon anymore), considering it's apparently the single best way of tacking space combat due to sheer power, not to mention range. Why does nobody use warp torpedoes? Just gut an X-Wing from everything except engines and warp drive, replace the cockpit with remote guidance and lug that shit at enemy ships.For all the same reasons that people don't generally use kamikaze tactics in real life. There are only a select few situations where it's a reasonable trade. You're gonna need mass for one, the Raddus was a capital ship. An X-Wing doing the same wouldn't leave much impact overall, even if you specially outfitted it with a hyperdrive (as we see from Poe needing to get back in the Raddus' hanger in the opening scene).
But she is. She is magically good at everything she does, everyone likes her and whatnot. Being a chosen one doesn't require a prophercy, just requires a writer to make one character objectively "best" character. Whole "Wound in The Force" theory be damned, that is still her being exceptional due to, for now, no apparent reason.I don't know where this perception of Rey as a Mary Sue comes from. She's good at everything? No she's not, her one big accomplishment is partially self-training her Force powers...which she does by using the Dark Side. The side that's supposed to be quick and easy? Everybody likes her? Who are these people? Poe hardly interacts with her and Finn just about ditches her in TFA. Luke goes from thinking she's a stupid fangirl to a darkside dabbler timebomb. Leia is like, polite to her, I guess. The only character I remember explicitly liking her is Chewbacca, which gets her some side points with Han since they need some more crew who aren't in the habit of pissing off Wookies.
Literally an entire scene is devoted to Kylo breaking down her belief that she's special and comes from some secret royalty or whatever, and that she should just seize her own fate with what she's got. Even her venture into the dark doesn't do much more than have it tell her she's not getting any answers.QuoteSnoke is some complete noone. Nothing is really known about him, which was fine in the previous movie, as we all expected an explanation in this one. But then he just died. He is just random big evil with no connection to previous movies. It's as if there was suddenly new LoTR trilogy set after original one where there is crazy new powerful wizard named Snort and then he just dies.You mean like exactly what happened in The Hobbit films? I don't think there's much explanation needed really. Much as Rey has no special parents, Snoke needs no special past. Fuck it. He's a Palpatine wannabe who forced (pun intended) his way to the top of an Empire splinter. What more do you need to know?QuoteIt's a war, people die, and the problem is what Poe does works. It's the "Pink Hair Sue Commander" that for no good reason didin't tell anyone her plan, which directly led to everything going badly. If you notice, when Poe is being told that they in fact have a plan, he thinks it will work. In his mind, all he did was trying to save everything because after Leia went down there was apparently no plan, and without one they would be dead.
She doesn't tell Poe anything because he doesn't need to know, just like in a real military unit. He's a pilot and a properly disgraced one for usurping command of an operation and getting almost the entire force sans himself killed. That isn't how organized militants work, ever. And there is a good reason why, spies. Which is in fact what ends up almost getting them all killed, again, because of a plan that Poe authored. If I were Leia I wouldn't have stunned Poe, I'd have shot him as a traitor.
Poe thinks he knows better and is more important than everyone else. That he just has to be the special savior somehow, because he's good as a pilot. It's a good flaw for his character but it definitely does not make him right.QuoteYou mean New Republic stupidity? This is something that hurts me the most probably, believing that New Republic, and Mon Mothma and basically everyone except Leia believed in this crazy stupid idea of "disband our entire military, when Imperial Remnants see we did that they will disband their entire military too". This shit is the satirical propaganda that people apply to real life anti-gun movement, except New Republic took it seriously. Even during the longest time Old Republic didin't have an army, they had Jedi, they had Juicidal Force, they had goddamn Navy. New doesn't have anything, and First Order be damned, there were dozens of other political entites that would attack them for profit, Hutt Cartels and various pirates from the top of the head.Consider where the New Republic is coming from. The galaxy has a generation under the thumb of an extremely militant and human supremacist Empire, one which crushed whole worlds and centralized all true power in the hands of one Sith Master, as far as he could make possible. The New Republic wants to avoid that as much as possible. They want to be all decentralized and with as few military forces as is reasonable, so that nobody can take control of them like Palpatine did the Clone Army. Most of the worlds in the New Republic are going to agree to this because if they're the primary power in the galaxy but no one element of the New Republic is individually powerful enough to take over, there can be peace.
The First Order throws this out of balance, yes. But that's mostly because they don't know that there's another Emperor wannabe or superweapon in the mix. Remember, the First Order basically coexisted with the New Republic for decades, and the other Imperial Remnants probably did the same. It was only with Snoke's ambition that they were able to turn back to planetbusting and active expansion. Still, how are you as the New Republic Senate, a genuine democratic body of several thousand worlds, going to convince people who just want to stop having their children march to war that an expeditionary war into the First Order, who have maybe done some piracy but have had piracy done on them by the Resistance, is a good idea?
QuoteThe FTL suicide jump indeed looked cool, but it has heavy implication as to why nobody goddamn did that before (setting aside that to this point there were explanations in lore that this wouldn't work, but obviously they aren't canon anymore), considering it's apparently the single best way of tacking space combat due to sheer power, not to mention range. Why does nobody use warp torpedoes? Just gut an X-Wing from everything except engines and warp drive, replace the cockpit with remote guidance and lug that shit at enemy ships.For all the same reasons that people don't generally use kamikaze tactics in real life. There are only a select few situations where it's a reasonable trade. You're gonna need mass for one, the Raddus was a capital ship. An X-Wing doing the same wouldn't leave much impact overall, even if you specially outfitted it with a hyperdrive (as we see from Poe needing to get back in the Raddus' hanger in the opening scene).
I think Snoke was lying about connecting Rey and Kylo, seeing as how he was dead and they were still doing it.
Also, he wasn’t expecting Kylo to turn, and he was also doing exactly what he expected him to be doing at that time too - namely looking as though he was about to kill Rey.
The force balance thing is also a prophecy from before isn’t it? The prequel trilogy? I don’t think it gets mentioned in this, beyond the light ascending with the dark. Luke does rise to meet the dark, after Rey comes to see him. Kinda.
Also also, Kylo was expecting Rey to join with him, seeing as that’s what he saw when they touched during the force vision-y things. Not sure what his plan is but I was wondering what was going to happen after their fight and the movie didn’t end there as I expected so I wasn’t paying too much attention heh.
I was under the impression X-Wings did come fitted with hyperdrives. This isn’t just over the EU, but Luke hikes it to Dagobah and Bespin sans capital ship in V, and I’m reasonably sure there’s a bunch that FTL their way to Endor prior to the assault on the Death Star in VI.
Perhaps Poe was going to the capital ship as a result of low fuel or whatever.
Critics loved it, half the audience also loves it, the other half hates it, although supposedly the relatively (split roughtly 50-50) low audience scores are blamed on "Alt-Right groups" attacking The Last Jedi for "including more women".
The fuck is this world we live in.
I don't know where this perception of Rey as a Mary Sue comes from. She's good at everything?She is great at use of force. She is great at lightsaber fighting (without training, no less). She is great at flying ships and repairing ships, even ones as unique as Millenium Falcon.
No she's not, her one big accomplishment is partially self-training her Force powers...which she does by using the Dark Side. The side that's supposed to be quick and easy? Everybody likes her? Who are these people? Poe hardly interacts with her and Finn just about ditches her in TFA. Luke goes from thinking she's a stupid fangirl to a darkside dabbler timebomb. Leia is like, polite to her, I guess. The only character I remember explicitly liking her is Chewbacca, which gets her some side points with Han since they need some more crew who aren't in the habit of pissing off Wookies."WHERE'S REY". Then they all hug at the end and all. Han was mad at her but then he liked her. Luke disliked her but then agreed to help. This is especially visible due to what you mention - everyone barely knows her, but they just go with it.
Literally an entire scene is devoted to Kylo breaking down her belief that she's special and comes from some secret royalty or whatever, and that she should just seize her own fate with what she's got. Even her venture into the dark doesn't do much more than have it tell her she's not getting any answers.Hm. I don't recall seeing it in that way, and at this point it's hard for me to check, but eh. If you want it, sure, but then I'd consider basically every force sensitive person to be "chosen one" in a way, especially when there is really not many of them left.
Snoke is some complete noone. Nothing is really known about him, which was fine in the previous movie, as we all expected an explanation in this one. But then he just died. He is just random big evil with no connection to previous movies. It's as if there was suddenly new LoTR trilogy set after original one where there is crazy new powerful wizard named Snort and then he just dies.You mean like exactly what happened in The Hobbit films?[/quote]
I don't think there's much explanation needed really. Much as Rey has no special parents, Snoke needs no special past. Fuck it. He's a Palpatine wannabe who forced (pun intended) his way to the top of an Empire splinter. What more do you need to know?The main evil of the next Star Wars movie will be a Porg that sat on Snoke and now everyone is scared of him until he dies from a heart attack when someone acidentally shouts in pain when stubbing his toe on a drawer. What more do you need to know? That's probably the point, Snoke is Palpatine wannabe, but he carries no fucking weight with him.
Sure. But as it is evidenced many times, to properly read a military unit it's commander must be trusted by his soldiers, and she is so unpopular that she gets literally ousted by people who do not believe in her and only Leia Ex Machina "saves" the situation, which leads me to believe she didin't only not tell Poe, but her plan was a complete mystery to everyone. Orders are orders, but when your commander, being an untested one in a desperate situation, orders you to do what you think amounts to running into machinegun fire with completly no explanation, knowing that your squad is the only one left, especially when there are alternatives that look much more sane, would you?QuoteIt's a war, people die, and the problem is what Poe does works. It's the "Pink Hair Sue Commander" that for no good reason didin't tell anyone her plan, which directly led to everything going badly. If you notice, when Poe is being told that they in fact have a plan, he thinks it will work. In his mind, all he did was trying to save everything because after Leia went down there was apparently no plan, and without one they would be dead.
She doesn't tell Poe anything because he doesn't need to know, just like in a real military unit. He's a pilot and a properly disgraced one for usurping command of an operation and getting almost the entire force sans himself killed. That isn't how organized militants work, ever. And there is a good reason why, spies. Which is in fact what ends up almost getting them all killed, again, because of a plan that Poe authored. If I were Leia I wouldn't have stunned Poe, I'd have shot him as a traitor.
Poe thinks he knows better and is more important than everyone else. That he just has to be the special savior somehow, because he's good as a pilot. It's a good flaw for his character but it definitely does not make him right.Notice that Poe is completly content when Leia explains him the plan. Notice that the plan wasn't even his, but it was something he believed was better than basically accepting that they're dead and just giving in.
Consider where the New Republic is coming from. The galaxy has a generation under the thumb of an extremely militant and human supremacist Empire, one which crushed whole worlds and centralized all true power in the hands of one Sith Master, as far as he could make possible. The New Republic wants to avoid that as much as possible. They want to be all decentralized and with as few military forces as is reasonable,*screeech*
so that nobody can take control of them like Palpatine did the Clone Army. Most of the worlds in the New Republic are going to agree to this because if they're the primary power in the galaxy but no one element of the New Republic is individually powerful enough to take over, there can be peace.Clone Army was unique. They were pre-programmed to be taken control of, something that wouldn't have happened with regular people.
The First Order throws this out of balance, yes. But that's mostly because they don't know that there's another Emperor wannabe or superweapon in the mix. Remember, the First Order basically coexisted with the New Republic for decades, and the other Imperial Remnants probably did the same.THEY HAD WARS. JAKKU WAS A BATTLE BETWEEN REMNANTS AND NEW REPUBLIC. This logic is the same as if Stalin disarmed entire Soviet Union because he coexisted with Nazi Germany for a while.
It was only with Snoke's ambition that they were able to turn back to planetbusting and active expansion. Still, how are you as the New Republic Senate, a genuine democratic body of several thousand worlds, going to convince people who just want to stop having their children march to war that an expeditionary war into the First Order, who have maybe done some piracy but have had piracy done on them by the Resistance, is a good idea?Expeditionary war? Who says anything about expeditionary war? All I am asking of them is to not be completly retarded and disband their entire armed force whilist there are armed threats around the Galaxy, ESPECIALLY if Resistance is poking First Order with a stick and provoking them to go to war again.
For all the same reasons that people don't generally use kamikaze tactics in real life. There are only a select few situations where it's a reasonable trade. You're gonna need mass for one, the Raddus was a capital ship. An X-Wing doing the same wouldn't leave much impact overall, even if you specially outfitted it with a hyperdrive (as we see from Poe needing to get back in the Raddus' hanger in the opening scene).X-Wings have hyperdrives. This is literally their most defining feature, and is the main difference between Imperial "mass cheap fighter spam" tactics and Rebel/Resistance "hit&run" tactics.
5.) Ya, I don't have a huge problem with the concept of the FTL suicide jump. It was a good moment and a good idea. Considering Kot's previous example, and even without it, it's probably reasonable to to assume most super weapons (i.e. The Death Stars) have shields strong enough to at least mitigate damage from any sort of suicide run, and combined with a fleet, make it an ineffective strategy.And the Snoke's ship for some reason had none?
the one posted is from the EU, i.e. not canon
Well unless shields have been retconned I will take it as a prime example.But then Millenium Falcon goes under the base shields in previous movie so Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż.
Why though? You’d need to build entire new ships every time you wanted to do it, it’d probably be cheaper to use, like, actual weapons.Compare the size of the Resistance ship and the Snoke's flagship.
I’m sure there was a droid rights movement or something in the EU, too :pFair enough, but then I'd have hard time imagining Sith, Hutts or w/e giving a lot of shit about droids as they batter enemy fleets into oblivion with hyperspace projectiles.
What would be the point in hyperspace torpedoes though? It’d be more effective to pack the space that would be hyperdrive engines with more explosives, presumably.Bypasses shields.
This makes planetary bombardments a pointless thing, especially since the examples we see in the movies are of turbolaser barrages, effectively limited only by the size of your rechargeable power source. Why make specialized weaponry for it when you have that?Bypasses shields.
As for unavoidability: the singular example we have of this is of two ships who were, by standards of open space, right next to each other. The attacking ship was tiny, the attacked ship effin’ huge. By the time they realized what she had planned, they had no chance of moving out the way.Now imagine if that was from an ambush, or better yet, against a relatively stationary target like a planet or Death Star, but from very far away.
Unlimited range is more of a problem, and unlikely even for hitting planets. You’re trying to hit tiny points which are moving through space in three dimensions from trillions of miles away. An effective range would be tiny.You have to realize that the whole thing that enables hyperspace travel is a computer that basically calculates a path through space that doesn't hit anything on the way. The only thing you have to achieve is try to hit the thing at the end of the road instead of dodging it too.
Hyperspace torpedoes were a thing in the EU, and they pretty much destroyed planets. They were fired by the Galaxy Gun.No. That's the point. The Galaxy Gun fired projectiles through hyperspace, but that was only a mean of transport - they carried regular (well, "regular", it was pretty special payload, but payload working in realspace) to target system, whereas the projectiles resumed flight and hit with normal speed. Due to this the projectile had to be heavily shielded so it couldn't be shot down before impact.
Upon exiting hyperspace and homing in on its target, the projectile's automated defenses would activate to deter enemy forces. Automated laser cannon turrets exchanged laser fire with warships while thick armor plating and powerful energy shields deflected even the most advanced ion cannons and turbolasers.
Also, even normal torpedoes bypass shields in Star Wars. Shields work kinda similar to DUNE shields, where something going slow enough will pass through the shield, but high velocity projectiles will get fried.But they can be shot down. Hyperspace torpedoes can't. That's the point, they might be more expensive than regular weaponry, but there is no real defence against them.
the one posted is from the EU, i.e. not canon
Well unless shields have been retconned I will take it as a prime example.
But it could, couldn't it? I mean, why not? The one single cruiser plowed through a super-dreadnought and a bunch of Star Destroyers...and killed them all. A single Y-Wing should be more than enough to disable a Death Star superlaser.
But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
Then just use a bigger ship.But it could, couldn't it? I mean, why not? The one single cruiser plowed through a super-dreadnought and a bunch of Star Destroyers...and killed them all. A single Y-Wing should be more than enough to disable a Death Star superlaser.But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
But it could, couldn't it? I mean, why not? The one single cruiser plowed through a super-dreadnought and a bunch of Star Destroyers...and killed them all. A single Y-Wing should be more than enough to disable a Death Star superlaser.But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
Then just use a bigger ship.But it could, couldn't it? I mean, why not? The one single cruiser plowed through a super-dreadnought and a bunch of Star Destroyers...and killed them all. A single Y-Wing should be more than enough to disable a Death Star superlaser.But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
It's not a matter of wether that's cost effective, because consider HOW MANY FUCKING SHIPS they lost assaulting the Death Star, and how much effort they needed, and that ultimately they only did it because they had Luke's force magic.
Now compare that with just crashing a ship into Death Star. Even if it won't kill it fully, it will probably disable it's weapon and damage it enough so it could be finished off with normal means.
I mean it e didn't *destroy* the capital ship, did it? I thought it was just crippled and some of the hangars blew up, but Kylo just flew down the uin-exploded ground forces to kick the rebels.
Or did I reach for popcorn and miss it actually going kablooey
(Also it's interesting that the entire resistance at the end of this film consists of a single small freighters worth. The rest are dead.)
I don't think it actually killed any ships, just did enough damage quickly enough that they had to stop shooting at transports.
The hyperspace crash wasn't enough to kill any of the First Order ships, they were still able to mobilise and fly down ground troops.It literally cut the fucking Snoke's giant ship in half and also majority of First Order fleet. (https://gfycat.com/LegitimateUnfoldedCaribou) I cannot believe when people are saying this changes nothing. She just single-handely wrecked the First Order superweapon, what is apparently majority of First Order fleet and all that in one fucking go, while First Order had no fucking way of defending themselves against it. She killed a ship that was three times as wide as Eclipse was long, had millions of crew and a number of Resurgent-class that are twice the size of old ISDs and have over 100,000 people onboard.
Justifying star wars physics isn't the job of the movies, and never has been. the fact that people can already provide plausible explanations indicates that we'll probably get such an explanation in EU at some point.It's not even justifying physics, I do not even want that because the whole concept disregards them, but the "no hyperspace ramming" thing was something impossible to do in Star Wars for a good reason. Just look at the goddamn video and tell me that is something that rewrites entire existing Star Wars combat theory, perhaps even completly obsoletes it. She just traded one decently sized ship for a ship that was bigger than any other existing Star Wars ship in new canon and a whole fleet of goddamn ISDs on steroids. If that is not fair trade, nothing is.
I want you to give me a plausible explanation why that is not a staple maneuver in Star Wars space combat, considering its power and apparent lack of downsides, especially since the First Order officers clearly realized what Holdo is going to do, so they must have known that this is possible.Two I've heard:
I want you to give me a plausible explanation why that is not a staple maneuver in Star Wars space combat, considering its power and apparent lack of downsides, especially since the First Order officers clearly realized what Holdo is going to do, so they must have known that this is possible.Two I've heard:
One, Hyperspace ramming works only on that ship in particular, because it was using a hyperspace tracker, which is new technology. Their tracker is like a periscope which extends into hyperspace, so when a ship that's in hyperspace hits it it transfers kinetic energy into realspace.
Two, you can only hyperspace jump to particular predetermined spots, and normally every starship commander avoids these spots because ramming is a danger. The first order thought they were winning and were overconfident assholes in general, so they steered onto a jump spot to chase the rebels. This also changes the "oh, shit" reaction from just "she's going to ram us" to "I have made a mistake".
Two I've heard:I could accept this but then... how did Holdo knew this would work? This technology was completly unknown before, she had no way of knowing how it works, although the First Order might have been aware of this, which explains their reaction before getting rammed, but still.
One, Hyperspace ramming works only on that ship in particular, because it was using a hyperspace tracker, which is new technology. Their tracker is like a periscope which extends into hyperspace, so when a ship that's in hyperspace hits it it transfers kinetic energy into realspace.
Two, you can only hyperspace jump to particular predetermined spots, and normally every starship commander avoids these spots because ramming is a danger. The first order thought they were winning and were overconfident assholes in general, so they steered onto a jump spot to chase the rebels. This also changes the "oh, shit" reaction from just "she's going to ram us" to "I have made a mistake".If that was the case a lot of things would be much simpler in Star Wars, and off of top of my head would make canonical explanation of Kessel Run not work, so if that was the explanation, then it also fucks with rest of ACTUAL canon this time.
Have we considered when a ship actually enters hyperspace? At what point from when the ship starts moving super fast does it actually get there? Is this instantaneous or does it take a bit?In EU it was explained that's not really how it works, but because of >EU, even then the hyperspace weapons would be useful because:
That seems like it is a distance much further away than at which regular combat would take place, which means that hyperspace weapons at very least are unavoidable at slightly further away than distances where regular combat would take place.
Two I've heard:I could accept this but then... how did Holdo knew this would work? This technology was completly unknown before, she had no way of knowing how it works, although the First Order might have been aware of this, which explains their reaction before getting rammed, but still.
One, Hyperspace ramming works only on that ship in particular, because it was using a hyperspace tracker, which is new technology. Their tracker is like a periscope which extends into hyperspace, so when a ship that's in hyperspace hits it it transfers kinetic energy into realspace.Two, you can only hyperspace jump to particular predetermined spots, and normally every starship commander avoids these spots because ramming is a danger. The first order thought they were winning and were overconfident assholes in general, so they steered onto a jump spot to chase the rebels. This also changes the "oh, shit" reaction from just "she's going to ram us" to "I have made a mistake".If that was the case a lot of things would be much simpler in Star Wars, and off of top of my head would make canonical explanation of Kessel Run not work, so if that was the explanation, then it also fucks with rest of ACTUAL canon this time.
Not that it's something they give a fuck about.
I wish Disney hadn't chopped the EU. It would've made answering those questions easy: One, NO, since the lead destroyer, the one Finn and Co. were planning to sneak onto, as I recall, wasn't Snoke's ship. And two, no, ships just tend to jump in similar directions, because "hyperlanes" are much safer to travel than unmapped and potentially debris-filled self-plotted courses.
Have we considered when a ship actually enters hyperspace? At what point from when the ship starts moving super fast does it actually get there? Is this instantaneous or does it take a bit?In EU it was explained that's not really how it works, but because of >EU, even then the hyperspace weapons would be useful because:That seems like it is a distance much further away than at which regular combat would take place, which means that hyperspace weapons at very least are unavoidable at slightly further away than distances where regular combat would take place.
Again, there's nothing that makes hyperspace ramming any more effective than IRL ramming. If you were to steer an aircraft carrier into a fleet of ships you'd fuck them up pretty bad before sinking (or more realistically, being immobilized). You have lost out immensely by doing so, given the value of the aircraft carrier. Not only have you damaged your faction up on the strategic level by losing such an asset, but the sunk cost (pun intended) of the carrier is greater than that of the ships you murderfucked. But if it was the decisive battle of the war, the carrier's planes had all been shot down, and the only useful bodies and craft left were being picked off by those enemy ships? It's a different equation.
Hyperspace drives are probably the most expensive parts of any ship and have to be scaled up with the size of the ship as well. Shooting a ship with a small hyperspace weapon is only going to be catastrophic if the ship is, say, less than four times the mass of the hyperspace weapon. Otherwise it's going to be like getting shot but having your organs missed. Bad, yes. Fatal, not really, and military vessels are going to have substantial damage control systems. And once you've done this, you've blown your space load on that part of your force, it's gone. Blasting down the shields and shooting with blasters and missiles is going to be way more cost and force efficient.
Ramming is like defibrillators. Fiction and intuition tells us that it's cool and dramatic, so it must be useful. But it's really not. The Raddus was in a nearly unique tactical situation to make a hyperspace ram of the Supremacy worthwhile, and did so almost as soon as those circumstances fell into place. It would have been an incorrect or at least less correct maneuver in every other Star Wars battle to date, including the assaults on both Death Stars and the Starkiller.
She guessed and was proven right by getting blown apart/the force told her/everything was lost anyway so may as well try/she was an idiot who had never heard that hyperspace ramming doesn't work usually.Two I've heard:I could accept this but then... how did Holdo knew this would work? This technology was completely unknown before, she had no way of knowing how it works, although the First Order might have been aware of this, which explains their reaction before getting rammed, but still.
One, Hyperspace ramming works only on that ship in particular, because it was using a hyperspace tracker, which is new technology. Their tracker is like a periscope which extends into hyperspace, so when a ship that's in hyperspace hits it it transfers kinetic energy into realspace.
1.) It's not a new technology. Like kamikaze wasn't a new technology. She just deciding to ram her ship into theirs ASAP to give the rebels as much time as possible. She had no idea it would work.Tracking IS a new technology. That is literally what they say. Nobody ever made something that enabled you to track someone in Hyperspace, and First Order did. She could have no idea she could ram them, and yet "she decides to ram their ship".
Just to clarify, fleet combat has 100% taken place at greater effective ranges in Episodes 3 and 6. To be fair, Star Wars isn't the best at giving an accurate sense of scale in space combat so it's kind of a moot point--the range is pretty much always determined by plot. That said, the whole barely being able to outpace ISDs is an absolutely bogus looming threat. A.) No. B.) You're telling me that Mega Star Destroyer can't shoot for shit? Ridiculous. \They literally say in the movie that they are too far away for their guns to work, which is why they are pursuing them in first place and waiting for them to run out of fuel instead of just, you know, gunning them down. Fuck scale, fuck that, I am going off what characters and plot tells me.
Again, there's nothing that makes hyperspace ramming any more effective than IRL ramming.There is. Speed. Unavoidability. I will also say power, as with the speeds Star Wars capital ships seem to operate, I wouldn't say they should be able to literally cut something that seems to be at least four times as long as regular ISD in half.
If you were to steer an aircraft carrier into a fleet of ships you'd fuck them up pretty bad before sinking (or more realistically, being immobilized). You have lost out immensely by doing so, given the value of the aircraft carrier.She destroyed biggest fucking ship in Galaxy, a capital of First Order to that and multiple goddamn ISDs on steroids using a ship that was magnitudes smaller. That is if a cruiser rammed all American carriers and sunk them at once. She won.
Not only have you damaged your faction up on the strategic level by losing such an asset, but the sunk cost (pun intended) of the carrier is greater than that of the ships you murderfucked. But if it was the decisive battle of the war, the carrier's planes had all been shot down, and the only useful bodies and craft left were being picked off by those enemy ships? It's a different equation.The cost of the ships she murderfucked was much higher of her ship. Sure, technically it is a loss for Resistance, since they have only one, but in regular combat between similarly sized fleets sacrificing one goddamn cruiser to destroy entire enemy fleet whereas normally you would probably have to deal with loss of many more due to regular combat is great fucking trade.
Hyperspace drives are probably the most expensive parts of any ship and have to be scaled up with the size of the ship as well. Shooting a ship with a small hyperspace weapon is only going to be catastrophic if the ship is, say, less than four times the mass of the hyperspace weapon. Otherwise it's going to be like getting shot but having your organs missed. Bad, yes. Fatal, not really, and military vessels are going to have substantial damage control systems. And once you've done this, you've blown your space load on that part of your force, it's gone. Blasting down the shields and shooting with blasters and missiles is going to be way more cost and force efficient.But the enemy will also be shooting back. This is why I said hyperspace weapons probably aren't an "I-Win button", but they should be considered in universe as something that has it's own applications. I don't think the hyperdrives are even that expensive, considering they slam those in X-Wings, and also if you're worried about the cost of losing a whole ship, just put a hyperdrive on a fucking asteroid or something.
Ramming is like defibrillators. Fiction and intuition tells us that it's cool and dramatic, so it must be useful. But it's really not. The Raddus was in a nearly unique tactical situation to make a hyperspace ram of the Supremacy worthwhile, and did so almost as soon as those circumstances fell into place. It would have been an incorrect or at least less correct maneuver in every other Star Wars battle to date, including the assaults on both Death Stars and the Starkiller.Unique tactical situation my ass.
Equally so, this is quite clearly a very rarely used technique. If it became more common, tactics would adapt, much like a ship in the sea throwing off a firing solution for a torpedo from a sub, the ships would start changing their course and speed erratically to avoid it, or find some technology to negate the effects, like having an interdictor cruiser standard in every fleet, or even just gravity well generators on enough ships to make it untenable to commit resources to specialized rams.This is the exact fucking point. Why it's rare? Why it's not used more? It is clearly something that they realized could happen, but did nothing to counteract it? They act like universe is completly aware this can be done, but then everyone is fucking suprised to the core it can be done.
She guessed and was proven right by getting blown apart/the force told her/everything was lost anyway so may as well try/she was an idiot who had never heard that hyperspace ramming doesn't work usually.And you're telling me in the long-ass time they hyperspace drives existed (EU be damned, the Republic was said to be old as fuck in regular canon anyway, so they had hyperdrives for at least this long) nobody tried it?
And you're telling me in the long-ass time they hyperspace drives existed (EU be damned, the Republic was said to be old as fuck in regular canon anyway, so they had hyperdrives for at least this long) nobody tried it?If you'll check that post chain you were responding to specifically the idea that it works because that ship had a hyperspace tracker on it, which is a technology that was used for the first time ever is this very movie, so whoever was dumb enough to try ramming before that would have found that it does nothing.
Then what is she attempting to do?And you're telling me in the long-ass time they hyperspace drives existed (EU be damned, the Republic was said to be old as fuck in regular canon anyway, so they had hyperdrives for at least this long) nobody tried it?If you'll check that post chain you were responding to specifically the idea that it works because that ship had a hyperspace tracker on it, which is a technology that was used for the first time ever is this very movie, so whoever was dumb enough to try ramming before that would have found that it does nothing.
I think we can just say that hyperspace ramming is possible, but it's not an efficient use of resources. It's the same as saying that kamikaze plane attacks in general are possible however they're a really poor use of resources, whenever you have the choice to do something else, you do the something else.Kamikaze plane attacks are technically good use of resources if they all succeded, after all a plane is much cheaper than a carrier, but the problem is that the planes were often shoot down before hitting the ships and the damage often wasn't critical.
Basically we can just assume that the amount of damage done with a big plasma weapon over it's expected lifetime in a battle exceeds the damage done by firing hyperspace-engine things through the target, in terms of resource units needed to create the weapons. Basically, if you took the same amount of resources needed to create that rebel flagship, but instead used them to make a single huge plasma cannon (that doesn't have hyperspace engines), it would by necessity have done more damage than hyperspace ramming the enemy with the ship.Probably yes, the damage would be greater, but the damage will be split over time during which the enemy is also shooting back. This is really simple, you're trading the ability for sustained firepower for the ability to deal a lot of damage instantly, especially since the hyperspace ramming seems to work against shielded opponents. You don't even have to kill the enemy ship outright, all it takes is for the hyperspace torpedo to cripple the enemy ship battle capabilities and then finish it off with regular weapons.
It's actually pretty easy to explain why hyperspace ramming is a thing you can do, but nobody normally does it.No, it's actually really hard to explain why hyperspace ramming is a thing you can do, but nobody does it, since as shown by the example it has great capabilites and even if it's not a staple of space combat due to w/e reasons, it's very hard to justify that noone has weapons capable of it.
1.) It's not a new technology. Like kamikaze wasn't a new technology. She just deciding to ram her ship into theirs ASAP to give the rebels as much time as possible. She had no idea it would work.Tracking IS a new technology. That is literally what they say. Nobody ever made something that enabled you to track someone in Hyperspace, and First Order did. She could have no idea she could ram them, and yet "she decides to ram their ship".Just to clarify, fleet combat has 100% taken place at greater effective ranges in Episodes 3 and 6. To be fair, Star Wars isn't the best at giving an accurate sense of scale in space combat so it's kind of a moot point--the range is pretty much always determined by plot. That said, the whole barely being able to outpace ISDs is an absolutely bogus looming threat. A.) No. B.) You're telling me that Mega Star Destroyer can't shoot for shit? Ridiculous. \They literally say in the movie that they are too far away for their guns to work, which is why they are pursuing them in first place and waiting for them to run out of fuel instead of just, you know, gunning them down. Fuck scale, fuck that, I am going off what characters and plot tells me.
How does tracking being a new technology play into her decision to hyperspace ram them?
She had no idea it would work.Answering the explanation that the ramming worked because only because tracker "peeks" the ship into hyperspace so it can be rammed. If she had no idea it would work, since the technology was new and Resistance had no idea how it worked, she must have thought it couldn't work and then the better option for her would be trying to shield the transports with the ship or something, not turn around and try to achieve... nothing really, at least that what she would have thought in this case.
I think we can just say that hyperspace ramming is possible, but it's not an efficient use of resources. It's the same as saying that kamikaze plane attacks in general are possible however they're a really poor use of resources, whenever you have the choice to do something else, you do the something else.Kamikaze plane attacks are technically good use of resources if they all succeded, after all a plane is much cheaper than a carrier, but the problem is that the planes were often shoot down before hitting the ships and the damage often wasn't critical.
Neither of those problems applies here, especially since you don't even have to build a whole ship to ram someone, just make dedicated hyperspace missiles or torpedoes. After all, that is literally what we did in reality - missiles are now the primary weapon of choice for many tasks such as naval combat, long range bombardment (nukes) and anti-air combat. Missiles are literally unmanned ramming vehicles that go boom after hitting something.Basically we can just assume that the amount of damage done with a big plasma weapon over it's expected lifetime in a battle exceeds the damage done by firing hyperspace-engine things through the target, in terms of resource units needed to create the weapons. Basically, if you took the same amount of resources needed to create that rebel flagship, but instead used them to make a single huge plasma cannon (that doesn't have hyperspace engines), it would by necessity have done more damage than hyperspace ramming the enemy with the ship.Probably yes, the damage would be greater, but the damage will be split over time during which the enemy is also shooting back. This is really simple, you're trading the ability for sustained firepower for the ability to deal a lot of damage instantly, especially since the hyperspace ramming seems to work against shielded opponents. You don't even have to kill the enemy ship outright, all it takes is for the hyperspace torpedo to cripple the enemy ship battle capabilities and then finish it off with regular weapons.It's actually pretty easy to explain why hyperspace ramming is a thing you can do, but nobody normally does it.No, it's actually really hard to explain why hyperspace ramming is a thing you can do, but nobody does it, since as shown by the example it has great capabilites and even if it's not a staple of space combat due to w/e reasons, it's very hard to justify that noone has weapons capable of it.
[Who decided not to put shields on the death star's exhaust port?! If that sort of thing works why don't the rebels just use x-wings to shoot photon torpedoes down the exhaust ports of every imperial capital ship?]It's not like Star Wars is hard sci-fi though. It's space opera: heroes journey + space buddhism + the sci-fi props they had on studio, the universe's logic isn't the point. For example, the explosion made sense visually and intuitively: big important good guys thing hits evil other big thing.
[Who decided not to put shields on the death star's exhaust port?! If that sort of thing works why don't the rebels just use x-wings to shoot photon torpedoes down the exhaust ports of every imperial capital ship?]
Which, vitally, came out after the original. :P[Who decided not to put shields on the death star's exhaust port?! If that sort of thing works why don't the rebels just use x-wings to shoot photon torpedoes down the exhaust ports of every imperial capital ship?]
You know, there was an entire movie based around this one plot point...
B: The rebellion just doesn't have the manpower or fighters to waste in suicide attacks
Were the First Order ships shielded though? They did say the Resistance ships were faster; perhaps they had to take power from elsewhere (like shields) to keep up.You must have missed the part where Finn and the gang had to slip past it to sneak on board.
[Who decided not to put shields on the death star's exhaust port?! If that sort of thing works why don't the rebels just use x-wings to shoot photon torpedoes down the exhaust ports of every imperial capital ship?]
That part was scoured from my mind ‘cause it was silly.Were the First Order ships shielded though? They did say the Resistance ships were faster; perhaps they had to take power from elsewhere (like shields) to keep up.You must have missed the part where Finn and the gang had to slip past it to sneak on board.
Remember the first Death Star wasn't shielded at all. The second Death Star was shielded, but it was a planet-based shield generator. We can assume that the shield in Return of the Jedi wasn't a viable ship-borne device.
I'm not really up on the EU stuff at all, but in the main movies, how many ships actually have ship-carried shields? This isn't Star Trek.
What does stop hyperspace ramming is the precision of it. You're not gonna know where anything is outside of your immediate drop-point aside from a mass shadow, which only show up on anything of a specific size and larger; you can't detect a ship because ships don't have a mass shadow, or enough of one, to lock onto.As long as you see it you can do it. You don't even need to see it by yourself, as you could have guidance ships or something, considering instantenous interstellar communication is a thing in Star Wars. Just relate the position of enemy compared to nearby mass shadows and send coordinates to the hyperspace ramming thing.
The second death star was destroyed by fighter craft flying inside of it. Going by the fact that the first death star had fighter bays stocked with TIEs I'd hazard the shield does not activate against fighters or the lie. If they did, the death star wouldn't have had hangars.
Very few ships can receive or send messages while in hyperspace. And with hyperspace travel being what it is you can't change course once you're in motion and it does take a bit to get to point B from point A. Once you combine that with planetary orbits and you're gonna be in for a long wait.I don't mean send messages in hyperspace. Send them before with calculated coordinates and then fire away.
How does tracking being a new technology play into her decision to hyperspace ram them?She had no idea it would work.Answering the explanation that the ramming worked because only because tracker "peeks" the ship into hyperspace so it can be rammed. If she had no idea it would work, since the technology was new and Resistance had no idea how it worked, she must have thought it couldn't work and then the better option for her would be trying to shield the transports with the ship or something, not turn around and try to achieve... nothing really, at least that what she would have thought in this case.
That or she is a complete moron and had no idea it wouldn't work and just got lucky but then that is one of sloppiest explanations there can be.
@Ispil pretty much covered what I was going to write. Lots of actual story progressing - it's also kind of ironic in that I think Kylo Ren spoke what is going to probably happen with the franchise, not just the story - getting rid of the "baggage" of the past. It could go well or ill - it's actually kind of interesting to consider it "from that point of view."
I mean, Ep 7 was so couched "in the past" it was kind of painful. Ep 8 explicitly said it: "Got to move on from the legend of Luke Skywalker, because riding that legend isn't enough."
Edit: sorry I got your name wrong initially!
And yet, at the end the kids ride that legend. Kind of almost saying the future is in thier (as in the kids, not neccesarily explictly those kids) hands.Yeah, I should probably have more coffee before I post.
So the hyperdrive ram actually zig-zagged accross that big capital ship? I thought the cruiser had somehow splintered into three pieces that sliced up that big ship.
So the hyperdrive ram actually zig-zagged accross that big capital ship? I thought the cruiser had somehow splintered into three pieces that sliced up that big ship.
The Mega was hit only at one place. It was one of the support ships that was likely hit by debris from the Mega that was shown to be struck along three lines.
Empire is full of foreshadowing about Luke falling to the dark side, ROTJ just goes -> Emperor: "Join the dark side Luke" Luke: "lolno"
So the hyperdrive ram actually zig-zagged accross that big capital ship? I thought the cruiser had somehow splintered into three pieces that sliced up that big ship.
The Mega was hit only at one place. It was one of the support ships that was likely hit by debris from the Mega that was shown to be struck along three lines.
Debris accelerated to hyperspace speeds? I swear I saw something that was shown to be struck with three bright lines.
There actually is an in-universe hard counter to hyperspace-based weapons:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can't remember if this is an EU creation or not. I know they appear in some LucasArts things other than the movies, at least.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.Nobody knows. Not even in new books. He is complete mystery, he just came up, took control of First Order and was Snoke.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.
I'm, like, 99% sure he didn't actually link the two, especially since they were still linked after his death.
OR he isn't quite dead.
Which would make sense sort of, given that they explained nothing about the character origins, and the Sith from nowhere is a stupid macguffin in my eyes.
Plus neither Kylo nor General Middlemanagement are credible villains. Both are sort of ridiculous.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.Nobody knows. Not even in new books. He is complete mystery, he just came up, took control of First Order and was Snoke.
As for him being dead, Darth Maul didn't survive being bisected by a lightsabre (he also fell into a powercore, so theres that)
Ye. Both in old EU and in actual new canon, since he shows up in Clone Wars cartoons or Rebels or w/e. They just give him a set of mechanical legs and he's kicking. In old Canon he even fought with Vader, I think.
As for him being dead, Darth Maul didn't survive being bisected by a lightsabre (he also fell into a powercore, so theres that)
... he actually survived, canonically.
As for him being dead, Darth Maul didn't survive being bisected by a lightsabre (he also fell into a powercore, so theres that)
... he actually survived, canonically.
Anyway:
- If he turns out to have a point and a background beyond a walking McGuffin/Palpatine stand-in, then what they did is poor storytelling.
- If he turns out NOT to have a background, and he´s nothing but a walking McGuffin/Palpatine stand-in because yadda yadda we´re starting something new not going with the old, then it´s poor storytelling, and needlessly complicated (The easiest way to do away with the previous setting is NOT starting at the previous setting.
Kind of lame, too. Surprise killing characters off is a gimmick copied from the GoT gameshow which gets old very soon (Worth noting that in the books they do this stuff far less often)
[Not really the same. Back then there was no backstory to to conflict with. I also daresay that, particularily with the former fact in mind, we do get a bit of exposure during the movies. We dont know the details, but we have a general outline of where palp stands
Well... Palpatine in Empire pops up out of nowhere. No backstory or nuffin'. I don't think the backstory is even really explored at all until the Prequel trilogy. I mean the Prequel trilogy is pretty much Palpatine's rise to power.
A cynic would say they're keeping his backstory as a reason to make another movie or threeSloppy storytelling for the sake of greater profit is still sloppy
The two new movies in the series have pretty much been rehashes of the original trilogy. Obviously so in the case of the Force Awakens being A New Hope, and The Last Jedi sharing elements of Empire and RotJ.Yeah, everything feels like they are changing the bare minimum they can to avoid being accused of self plagiarism
[Not really the same. Back then there was no backstory to to conflict with. I also daresay that, particularily with the former fact in mind, we do get a bit of exposure during the movies. We dont know the details, but we have a general outline of where palp stands
Well... Palpatine in Empire pops up out of nowhere. No backstory or nuffin'. I don't think the backstory is even really explored at all until the Prequel trilogy. I mean the Prequel trilogy is pretty much Palpatine's rise to power.
[Not really the same. Back then there was no backstory to to conflict with. I also daresay that, particularily with the former fact in mind, we do get a bit of exposure during the movies. We dont know the details, but we have a general outline of where palp stands
Well... Palpatine in Empire pops up out of nowhere. No backstory or nuffin'. I don't think the backstory is even really explored at all until the Prequel trilogy. I mean the Prequel trilogy is pretty much Palpatine's rise to power.
'Sides, the equivalent of Palpatine appearing in Empire for Snoke was his appearance in Force Awakens, not the Last Jedi.
Well... Palpatine in Empire pops up out of nowhere. No backstory or nuffin'. I don't think the backstory is even really explored at all until the Prequel trilogy. I mean the Prequel trilogy is pretty much Palpatine's rise to power.But... he doesn't. I think even in the first movie they mention him dissolving the Senate, and we get to know that he was, together with Vader, responsible for destruction of Jedi and I think Clone Wars are mentioned. And if you count in novelisations, which we should, since Snoke is not explained in the Disney Trilogy books either, we get to know he was elected "President of The Republic" and caused the change from Republic to Empire. Probably more things I forgot. Sure, we don't know where he was born or anything, but we know how he got to his place and why he is actually such a big deal.
After the fall of the Galactic Empire, the remaining admirals fought for control amongst themselves. A sith lord, Lord Snoke, emerged from parts unknown and quickly began to unite the disparate factions.All the backstory you need. Its one possible interpretation of "first order". Among many forms of order (AKA the different factions of the old empire's military) we are the foremost.
Did Boba Fett need to be explained? Jabba the Hutt? Yoda? The Rebel Alliance? The thing that lived in the trash compactor? Chewbacca? I could go on. Random aliens/robots/badass humans appearing and being neither explained nor commented on is a Star Wars staple.Most of them were explained to some degree, though, and the things that weren't, just weren't big shit on Galactic scale.
Here:He's not a Lord and he's not a Sith, but eh, about the same. The problem is he is powerful force entity and it's hard to think that nobody fucking heard of him before, really.QuoteAfter the fall of the Galactic Empire, the remaining admirals fought for control amongst themselves. A sith lord, Lord Snoke, emerged from parts unknown and quickly began to unite the disparate factions.All the backstory you need. Its one possible interpretation of "first order". Among many forms of order (AKA the different factions of the old empire's military) we are the foremost.
Side note: why would we count novels? Its a movie series. If you have to read supplementary novels to enjoy a movie, its a bad movie.Because old supplementary novels supplement the movie, and Disney's supplementary novels don't supplement the movie.
The problem is he is powerful force entity and it's hard to think that nobody fucking heard of him before, really.
...the question of why Palpatine wouldn't hunt him down just like he did with the Jedi...
They seem to favor being cut in half now as a way to indicate being really, really dead.Mumble mumble darth vader legs mumble mumble?
Maul only "lived" in the EU because ... EU writers. He's dead dead in movie canon. (I note he turns up in the Clone Wars tv show, which I haven't watched, but not sure how canon that even is considered now).They're canon, same as Rebels, because >Disney. So Maul being alive is even more canon than ever.
Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity.
... It happened in a f***ing space stationYeah, like when in new movie Resistance used gravity-dropped bombs on the spaceship and it worked?
(http://www.mibrujula.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/fail3.jpg)
Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity.
... It happened in a f***ing space station
Yeah, like when in new movie Resistance used gravity-dropped bombs on the spaceship and it worked?
1. a space station the size of a f***ing moon
BTW: how did Benicio del Toro learn about the transport plan? IIRC he really shouldn´t have been able to.
every single star wars film is insanely unrealistic over and over again with no resemblance whatsoever to how actual space combat works as one of its main features, i don't know how anyone can act as if this is new in TLJEven Space Opera has its limits. Thats why the Wing Commander movie is acknowledged to be crap.
it's not a science-based series, it's space opera
every single star wars film is insanely unrealistic over and over again with no resemblance whatsoever to how actual space combat works as one of its main features, i don't know how anyone can act as if this is new in TLJEven Space Opera has its limits. Thats why the Wing Commander movie is acknowledged to be crap.
it's not a science-based series, it's space opera
that, and, well, the crappy story and development.
Just like TLJ really
every single star wars film is insanely unrealistic over and over again with no resemblance whatsoever to how actual space combat works as one of its main features, i don't know how anyone can act as if this is new in TLJEven Space Opera has its limits. Thats why the Wing Commander movie is acknowledged to be crap.
it's not a science-based series, it's space opera
that, and, well, the crappy story and development.
Just like TLJ really
Well this was started with the knowledge there were going to be three films. You're not going to contain the story in one film when you know there's going to be another coming, else they would've ended this one after Kylo figured Rey wasn't for this dark side nonsense.
You know, if they cut off the parts after Kylo had declared himself the Supreme Leader of the First Order (maybe the scene between Yoda and Luke after that if it didn't occur before then) and had Leia die when she was blown out into space, the movie probably would have been better for it. ...
I was thinking of Darth Maul and Snoke, Anakin survived getting sliced up.
Also Mace Windu didn't survive going out the window. Leia's magic space journey really breaks cannon powers.
You know, if they cut off the parts after Kylo had declared himself the Supreme Leader of the First Order (maybe the scene between Yoda and Luke after that if it didn't occur before then) and had Leia die when she was blown out into space, the movie probably would have been better for it. ...
Even better, have Leia, and no Holdo, and have Leia do the hyperspace death-run into the enemy ship. Then end it there with Kylo declaring himself the new Supreme Leader as his ship disintegrates, and you can end it with Rei, Finn and Rose in dire straights, with Poe powerless to help. I mean, seriously, the ending of the actual movie is a cop-out after all the big talk: it ends with the "team back together" taking off on the millenium falcon, with a hopeful note. After all the talk of this being a darker film where things don't go as planned, tying all the loose ends up like that is a weaksauce way to end it. Empire Strikes Back was a better cliffhanger because they lost something important (old person mentors dying off is not a loss: it's a routine plot).
You mean the new movie which spawned a giant spaceThe bombers in the opening were brilliant. SW has always been WW2 dogfighters in space, now we have a WW2 bomber in space. Complete with the obligatory midflight repair/crew death war story. That bomber is the first SW vehicle I’ve seen since the original trilogy that wasn’t based on any old vehicle, yet still felt like it belonged.lobster from nowhereSith Noone Knew Existed* and then killed him off with no previous warning? :P
So yeah, no, it´s not a peak of narrative quality. If anything it´s sort of reminiscent of Poochie the Dog (http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Poochie) in The Simpsons (anyone remember that?)
*The name and character implementation are so lame that I´m pretty sure the redditer who came up with this acronym hit jackpot as to it´s etymology.
-treatise-I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Ep 8 was actually pretty good... and that sums up a lot of why. I don't think I put nearly as much though into figuring out why though.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.
I feel like we need another side-story, akin to Rogue One. We need an explanation for how Snoke's face got jacked up, what drove him to the dark side, and what his motivations were in taking over the Empire. Also, how they got ahold of new tracking technology. And what the deal was with that order of red-armored saber-weilding guards. Maybe some backstory on the female chrome-armored storm trooper. And just because it happened around the same time, throw in some stuff about Luke's Jedi Master phase.
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.
I feel like we need another side-story, akin to Rogue One. We need an explanation for how Snoke's face got jacked up, what drove him to the dark side, and what his motivations were in taking over the Empire. Also, how they got ahold of new tracking technology. And what the deal was with that order of red-armored saber-weilding guards. Maybe some backstory on the female chrome-armored storm trooper. And just because it happened around the same time, throw in some stuff about Luke's Jedi Master phase.
I didn't notice the chrome armored stormtrooper was female. Seemed like that person and Finn knew each other at some point though.
Speaking of Yoda, him suddenly gaining a sadistic streak seemed wierd. I get that he was supposed to have been a little eccentric, but the whole zapping the tree with lightning when Luke hesitated or took too long seemed out of character.
I love the little troll. The books weren't even in the temple, Rey stole them. At no point in the movie did Luke ever realize that.I was wondering how many other people noticed that :)
Haven’t read through the thread yet but who the heck was Snoke anyways? He came out of nowhere and died without much explanation except that he’s not a Sith Lord, doesn’t have a lightsaber, and is possibly one of the most Force-sensitive beings ever seeing as he can telepathically link two people several light years across, plus he can read minds and have weird and confusing ideas about the Dark Side.
I feel like we need another side-story, akin to Rogue One. We need an explanation for how Snoke's face got jacked up, what drove him to the dark side, and what his motivations were in taking over the Empire. Also, how they got ahold of new tracking technology. And what the deal was with that order of red-armored saber-weilding guards. Maybe some backstory on the female chrome-armored storm trooper. And just because it happened around the same time, throw in some stuff about Luke's Jedi Master phase.
I didn't notice the chrome armored stormtrooper was female. Seemed like that person and Finn knew each other at some point though.
She appeared multiple times in The Force Awakens and was an integral part of the plot on Starkiller Base.Speaking of Yoda, him suddenly gaining a sadistic streak seemed wierd. I get that he was supposed to have been a little eccentric, but the whole zapping the tree with lightning when Luke hesitated or took too long seemed out of character.
He was a lil' shithead in ESB. He ate Luke's food, spat it back out, just acted as a general nuisance until he could drop the bomb on Luke that he, in fact, is Yoda.
I love the little troll. The books weren't even in the temple, Rey stole them. At no point in the movie did Luke ever realize that.I was wondering how many other people noticed that :)
I just assumed the red guards were the missing Jedi.
You mean the new movie which spawned a giant spaceThe bombers in the opening were brilliant. SW has always been WW2 dogfighters in space, now we have a WW2 bomber in space. Complete with the obligatory midflight repair/crew death war story. That bomber is the first SW vehicle I’ve seen since the original trilogy that wasn’t based on any old vehicle, yet still felt like it belonged.lobster from nowhereSith Noone Knew Existed* and then killed him off with no previous warning? :P
So yeah, no, it´s not a peak of narrative quality. If anything it´s sort of reminiscent of Poochie the Dog (http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Poochie) in The Simpsons (anyone remember that?)
*The name and character implementation are so lame that I´m pretty sure the redditer who came up with this acronym hit jackpot as to it´s etymology.
As for Leia pulling herself out of space... I basically just wrote an essay about this and it digressed at some point. So I'll split this into two things. First, about Leia:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then continuing on to talk about TLJ, still using the above points:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Like I said, I can disagree with people on this. Nothing morally wrong with disliking (or hating, or liking, or whatever) this movie. I'm just analytical in general, I basically write an essay in my head about every movie I watch.
The plot structure is quite bad when examined, it invalidates most of what actually occurs in the first sixty minutes. There's really no satisfactory pay-off. In the end, nothing is accomplished, and no one is really changed. NEED I go into more depth than that? I can. Screenwriting is what I do, and this script is... yikes.
The character development is nil or backwards. Except for Kylo--who's rocking.
The plot structure is quite bad when examined, it invalidates most of what actually occurs in the first sixty minutes. There's really no satisfactory pay-off. In the end, nothing is accomplished, and no one is really changed. NEED I go into more depth than that? I can. Screenwriting is what I do, and this script is... yikes.
The character development is nil or backwards. Except for Kylo--who's rocking.
These two statements are contradictory.
Yeah, argue what you will about the plot/characters, The Last Jedi has some awesome cinematography (except for Snoke...just stop trying to do that kind of CGI please! And the couple green-screen snafus.)
You should watch those green-screen showreels they make (for industry clients really, you've probably never heard of the companies that make the showreels). It's amazing just how many regular "drama" type shows use digital backlots now. I'd say the vast majority of American TV shows green-screen almost everything that you wouldn't think need to be green-screened. It lets them film the backdrop on location just once, no matter how many takes are needed in the studio to get the foreground action correct (with motion tracking on the cameras to ensure they line up perfectly), which saves a lot of money considering that shooting on location is expensive and has to be completed in very limited timeframes.
Noticeable green screen failure in a feature film is really dropping the ball, considering that weekly TV shows do it fairly seamlessly all the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k
Re: the bay-esque complicated fight scenes. They seem to want to take some of the prequel's ideas into the new trilogy and execute them better. A friend pointed out (prior to the release of TLJ) that Rey and Kylo Ren are collectively prequels Anakin. Rey being kid Anakin, and Kylo being teen Anakin.
Wherras in TLJ Rey is the MS kid and K Ren is directly a cocky irrational assholeRe: the bay-esque complicated fight scenes. They seem to want to take some of the prequel's ideas into the new trilogy and execute them better. A friend pointed out (prior to the release of TLJ) that Rey and Kylo Ren are collectively prequels Anakin. Rey being kid Anakin, and Kylo being teen Anakin.
I am glad they do, since Anakin's character development was extremely weak in the prequals.
It went: Mary Sue kid -> cocky asshole -> irrational cocky asshole.
Holding a fixed mindset about any ability comes with many disadvantages. People may decide ahead of time that they do not have the “right stuff” and never make an effort at all. Girls who believe that they “can’t do” maths because of their gender and avoid its study are a case in point.
bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice.
Dweck's research has found that girls, more so than boys, tend to believe that the abilities one has are fixed: people are born with certain abilities or they're not. As a result, girls have shown a greater tendency to give up when they face challenges with a particular task or subject
Interestingly, in cultures that produce a large number of math and science graduates - especially women - including South and East Asian cultures, the basis of success is generally attributed less to inherent ability and more to effort.
The more girls and women believe that they can develop the skills they need to be successful in STEM fields (as opposed to being "gifted"), the more likely they are to actually be successful in STEM fields. Dr. Dweck's work demonstrates that girls benefit greatly from shifting their view of mathematics ability from "gift" to "learned skill."
- Accidentally destroys Anakin's lightsaber that they're both obsessed with.
- Can't hinder First Order assault on Crait.
there is supposed to be a balance between the light and dark and you have to straddle between the two.
there is supposed to be a balance between the light and dark and you have to straddle between the two.
Get your mind out of the gutter! Not everything is about sex
- Selfish desires are so delusional in nature that even the heart of darkness is like "idk, man".
doesn't join him in awesome galaxy murder quest either.Biggest problem with the movie right here.
Since the "Rey is a Mary Sue" meme persists on even in this thread, I present to you:
The Grand List of Rey's Failures and Personal Flaws
- Spent most of her life living in utter poverty, only managing to not starve.
- Extreme naivete towards the Jedi and the Republic.
- Delusional belief that her family is coming back for her.
- Almost immediately captured by Han and Chewbacca after stealing the Millennium Falcon.
- Does not convince Finn to continue the fight.
- So vulnerable to the call of the Dark Side even the residual amounts on Anakin's lightsaber enrapture her.
- Captured by Kylo Ren.
- Doesn't really contribute at all to the attack on the Starkiller, barely defeats Kylo Ren in a 2-on-1 fight.
- Delusional belief Luke can turn the war around somehow and wanted to be found.
- Only convinces Luke to help her out of persistent annoyance and him wanting her to see how screwed she is.
- Unhesitatingly draws deep power from the Dark Side such that Luke, who nearly turned once himself, flips out at how recklessly idiotic she is.
- Doesn't question her mental link to the man who tried to kill her not too long ago and is actively trying to kill all her friends, quickly becomes sympathetic to him.
- Despite chastisement by recently-idolized Luke Skywalker, decides to just delve straight into the heart of darkness to fulfill her selfish desires.
- Selfish desires are so delusional in nature that even the heart of darkness is like "idk, man".
- Goes kind of crazy and narrowly avoids murdering, again, recently-idolized Luke Skywalker for lying to her in the sense he didn't tell her every detail about how Kylo went bad.
- Delusional belief Kylo "Murder the Past" Ren has good in him and can be saved, aping the Luke-Anakin legend she believes in.
- Stupidly delivers herself into Kylo's clutches to be given to Snoke, again aping the old legend.
- Success at getting Kylo to rebel tempered by fact he did it for completely different reasons than she thought.
- Doesn't accept obvious truth about her parentage until loverboy Kylo Ren reads her mind and spells it out for her.
- Fails to redeem Kylo "Han-Kebab" Ren, doesn't join him in awesome galaxy murder quest either.
- Accidentally destroys Anakin's lightsaber that they're both obsessed with.
- Doesn't kill Kylo "Space Neo-Nazi Kickflip Into Space Antichrist" Ren even though she regains consciousness long before he does.
- Can't hinder First Order assault on Crait.
- Steals founding Jedi texts, proving she didn't learn anything from recently-idolized Luke Skywalker and is probably still streaking headlong into zealotry and the Dark Side.
Now with all of that suckage and failure, there's no need to continue on such a silly idea, which was taken grognar complaints about everything non-masturbatory in new Star Wars media anyway.
Since the "Rey is a Mary Sue" meme persists on even in this thread, I present to you:
The Grand List of Rey's Failures and Personal Flaws
- Spent most of her life living in utter poverty, only managing to not starve.
She speaks several languages fluently.
Rey also had a computer display from an old BTL-A4 Y-wing assault starfighter/bomber that she used to learn alien languages
Most Sues have an unusually Dark and Troubled Past. It's often used to create a Sympathetic Sue, but any type of Sue can have one. Such backstories never actually factor into the story; they're just casually dropped into the narrative to draw attention to the character and let her Wangst (usually out of proportion to how bad it really is). Most authors tend not to research such tragedies and their effects, which breaks the reader's Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
Relatedly, she will often have a tragic family life. This could involve Parental Abandonment or orphanhood, and whichever parental figures she has are often abusive, putting her squarely into Cinderella Circumstances. Darker fics will often have Rape as Backstory. She might be the Black Sheep who's so smart and talented that the rest of her family fears and abuses her — or she might be the White Sheep who's the only redeemable member of her otherwise evil family. Regardless, this backstory will never actually hold Mary Sue back from anything she wants to accomplish.
She will always be better than the canon characters, regardless of what canon has established they can do or whether it makes any sense. ... Her skills will often be unrealistic within the story's setting. She can be a master of a martial art that she should have no way of learningThis doesn't need elaboration
Okay, just putting this out there: why is Rey a Mary Sue but Luke isn't? There are certain tropes that every single writer uses when they invent a main character for their first long form story, and Luke fits every one of them:
*Good at a wide variety of skills, including ones they shouldn't logically have. Cold environment survival anyone?
Okay then, how about this. Obviously for an untrained farmboy Luke did well at everything he tried to do. Mostly justified in universe by the force or luck, since the odds were always heavily stacked against the good guys. So what weakness did Luke have that weren't a good or endearing quality? And what would you entire list of OT Luke's weakness be? My list as I gave on the last page is only two long. Caring about his friends too much isn't really a weakness and aside from his hand its never done anything bad for him. Its mostly a thing that Yoda and Palpatine call a weakness. Being inexperienced is arguably also not a weakness so much as a thing anyone in his situation would have. His practice to be a pilot makes him a lot less inexperienced than the average farmboy could be, and he picks up new information quickly. So I wouldn't say that his weakness is inexperience so much as his strength is quick learning.
Okay then, how about this. Obviously for an untrained farmboy Luke did well at everything he tried to do. Mostly justified in universe by the force or luck, since the odds were always heavily stacked against the good guys. So what weakness did Luke have that weren't a good or endearing quality? And what would you entire list of OT Luke's weakness be? My list as I gave on the last page is only two long. Caring about his friends too much isn't really a weakness and aside from his hand its never done anything bad for him. Its mostly a thing that Yoda and Palpatine call a weakness. Being inexperienced is arguably also not a weakness so much as a thing anyone in his situation would have. His practice to be a pilot makes him a lot less inexperienced than the average farmboy could be, and he picks up new information quickly. So I wouldn't say that his weakness is inexperience so much as his strength is quick learning.
Pisses off the guy at the Cantina.
Jumps into the garbage chute.
Loses to Vader, gets hand chopped off.
Not very gifted with (hand-held) blasters.
Gets surprised by Wampa.
Captured by Jabba after killing the Rancor.
A lot of shit goes wrong for Luke...
Captured by Jabba after killing the Rancor.
He ISN'T good with a blaster. For a MAIN CHARACTER, he is not good at shooting the pew pews.
Captured by Jabba after killing the Rancor.
Wasn't that intentional? He didn't know exactly where Han, Chewbacca, and Leia were held, and killing Rancor meant that none of his friends could be killed that way. Both Lando and Leia(and possibly R2-D2) could have easily called Luke up that Jabba had one, either one or both could easily have been in the room when Jabba feeds that slave girl to it. Also, by royally pissing off Jabba, Luke ensured Jabba would want to kill them all at once using the slowest and most painful way possible. The reason he gave the droids to Jabba was to smuggle his lightsaber in, otherwise Jabba's guards would certainly make sure that would have been confiscated.
I'd like to point out that Enigmatic Hat didn't actually list weaknesses either. All he said was that he lacks weaknesses--and also listed some things which are blatantly false. Five of his points are either abstractions or generalizations.
He ISN'T good with a blaster. For a MAIN CHARACTER, he is not good at shooting the pew pews.
Loses to Vader as I said, he's not the world's greatest saber fighter.
He still gets surprised by the Wampa, he's force sensitive, he should probably know it's coming. Not super aware, and it's true, he just isn't very aware. It's shown time and time again as he is guided by Ben or one of the other characters--culminating with basically everyone dying at Yavin and him doing his hero thing and then again when he leaves the fighting to the fighters so he can just confront the Emperor.
Lack of leadership and diplomatic skills. Seriously, he's not very good at getting people to do what he wants in the movie.
Regardless of having a weapon or note, he got captured. Like, ??? IT HAPPENED, lol. I don't think it's exactly planned out that way from the start.
But see, here's a key difference. Shit going wrong is important, because it means Lukes FAILS. And most of the time he doesn't get himself into bad situations. When he does, it's to save Han and distract the Emperor. When Rey fails it's either because she's too stupid or unlucky to avoid overwhelming force, or going to face down Kylo and Snoke for a selfish reason that really doesn't help the situation at hand.
EDIT: In addition, sometimes Rey and other new character fail because there literally is not enough time in the movie to have them succeed. Which is stupid.
EDIT2: Also sorry for so many grammar mistakes.
Rey was a human female Jedi and scavenger who discovered her latent Force-sensitivity while on a journey to find the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker and bring a new hope to a galaxy on the brink of war. Rey grew up alone in the desert wastes of Jakku, longing for her family to return, until she met BB-8, who carried information about Skywalker's whereabouts. Together with Finn, a First Order defector, and BB-8—and with the help of Han Solo and Chewbacca—she journeyed to deliver the map to Skywalker to General Leia Organa and the Resistance. Along the way, she discovered Skywalker's lightsaber and awakened her Force powers before being captured by Kylo Ren, whom she dueled into defeat on Starkiller Base just before the Resistance destroyed the First Order superweapon. After traveling to the Resistance base, Organa tasked her with finding Skywalker and presenting him with his old lightsaber as a symbol of the only hope the galaxy had left: the return of the Jedi.
It seems disingenuous to say "she just happens to cross paths with all these famous characters", its like saying that its hack writing that when jimmy met the star pitcher of the Somewhere Baseball team, he also met the rest of them. They're a group of characters whose fates are intrinsically wound up in each others, it would be more fanfictiony if meeting one didnt lead to the other (Quite a few fanfictions like to sideline characters the authors arent so fond of, even if the ones the story is focusing on have many reasons to interact with them)And yet Jimmy did not meat the rest of the baseball team. Rey met all the famous canon characters, and yet all the canon characters didn't even meet up with one another. They all died alone lmao, no on-screen chemistry, unless you want to count Justin Biebar and Will i am on holograms fam
Also urist i appear to have replied to you instead of reelya oops
It seems disingenuous to say "she just happens to cross paths with all these famous characters",
Really there is no one better suited for the mission.
This was not what happened with Poe. And the bomber deaths were not Poe's fault. Poe wasn't the commanding officer, the actual commanding officer failed to countermand Poe's call to bomb the ships. Then, Poe gets all the blame when things go pear shaped. That's another way to read it, but Leia Organa deserves the blame since she was actually in command as far as I can tell. If you read it as reality, it's more like she scapegoated him for her own failure to issue appropriate orders.
Let me ask you, what is more interesting? The person who can easily accomplish something accomplishing that thing, or the person who can't easily accomplish the thing who must struggle to accomplish it anyways?Both are interesting, if it's a good story of course. Examples: Conan the Barbarian for the first case, Rey's struggle to recruit Luke in the Last Jedi for the second case.
And she escaped from imprisonment on her own
And she has the Force
And she found Luke's lightsaber and got crazy visions from it
And she herself wanted to go meet Luke
Really there is no one better suited for the mission.
The fact that Leia said "pull back Poe" is actually more damning to her failure of leadership. It clearly shows that she had the authority to whether things went ahead or not and was completely cognizant of what was going on.
Poe wasn't actually the commanding officer, Leia was. Leia failed to give the appropriate orders to pull the bombers back, then Poe gets all the blame when everything goes wrong, despite the fact that the commanding officer basically let it happen when she could have stopped it.
This was just bad writing: if they wanted to make it clearly Poe's fault, then they should have had Leia's shuttle out of communication, thus making Poe the actually officer with command. If a captain wants to lead a charge, and the general can stop it, but doesn't act to do so, then it's the general's fault, not the captain. The general should be demoted, along with the captain.
edit: EU to the rescue! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker%27s_second_lightsaber"Six years later, the mad Jedi clone Joruus C'baoth ordered that a clone of Luke be produced from the appendage, and that he be armed with Anakin's old weapon."
Speaking of the bomber wings, whatever happened to the accompanying fighter wing? People learned pretty quick that you either need to accompany bombers with fighters or fly at night if you don't have absolute or near absolute air superiority.
I'd imagine the same rule applies to space combat if the mega destroyer or star destroyer could still spit out fighters. Of course though, they were being desperate.
And also, complete breakage of physics since the bombs wouldn't just drop as if they were in atmosphere.
I mean, when in the last 7 movies do you see explosive projectile weapons used?
The truth is that if the Death Star was moving as fast as it logically must, would be a pretty funny sight. Like a giant bowling ball coming to score a strike on Aldaraan.That reminds me, I was playing The Force Unleashed II yesterday, and I threw a piece of furniture at a squad of Stormtroopers. I swear, I heard the sound of bowling pins being knocked over by a bowling ball after it took out the whole group.
Yeah, the Death Star according to wookiepedia says that it's 120km in diameter, though further down it claims that it's actually 160 and it says that the scale model shows that it was intended to be 210km, but it seemed like it was supposed to be much larger than that.The Death Star was supposed to be large enough to be mistaken for a small moon. Earth's Moon is ~3475km in diameter, but that's an exceptionally large moon. Most natural satellites have a mean diameter of <250km, so the Death Star really was the size of a small moon.
Also, not communicating properly was a plot device. I HATE that plot device. "Oh so the plan is to use the ship as a decoy to allow the transports to go to that planet right over there that has an old base in secret" "Oh okay that sounds reasonable" FUCKING TEN SECONDS BUT NO, THE EXPERIENCED COMMANDER DECIDED TO GO IDIOTIC AND NOT COMMUNICATE
warp speed
Also, not communicating properly was a plot device. I HATE that plot device. "Oh so the plan is to use the ship as a decoy to allow the transports to go to that planet right over there that has an old base in secret" "Oh okay that sounds reasonable" FUCKING TEN SECONDS BUT NO, THE EXPERIENCED COMMANDER DECIDED TO GO IDIOTIC AND NOT COMMUNICATE
The best part is that when she decides to communicate he goes "Oh yeah let's do that".Quotewarp speed
HOW DARE YOU
To be fair to the commander, when your whole plan revolves around your enemy not realizing they should look for small ships and you are being tracked via methods you are not 100% sure of, keeping silent out of fear of spies is a believable move. Not a good move, maybe, but very believable.
Any student of military history knows that military commanders have made much worse decisions for worse reasons in real life.
I don't know why all the complaint about stuff in the movie that "didn't have a result." It's much more like real life that way - "we tried this, and it failed! It was pointless! It was a wrong turn! It didn't turn out the way I expected!"
Something I've just realized about this thread and most of the discussion on this movie though - it's lots of what people don't like - but very little of discussion what people were expecting. I feel like most of the disappointment and dislike is due to unmet expectations. But what expectations were there? Stuff like that...
Rather than failed outcomes, the problem was that none of the stuff really mattered.
Compare to Empire Strikes Back, there was stuff that monumentally went wrong, but it also mattered and had consequences going beyond that movie. e.g. what's the equivalent to luke getting his hand cut off, or han getting frozen in carbonite? Killing un-named rebels en masse isn't a meaningful plot, nor is bringing in a new character deliberately for them to be killed off in the same episode. That's sitcom type writing.
They act like the idea of ups and downs is "new" to the franchise. It's just not. Tons of things go wrong for everyone in the prequels, Empire Strikes Back is full of things going wrong for the good guys. This current movie just wasn't well done. There were no specific expectations because every preceding Star Wars movie has in fact been pretty different in it's character outcomes. I mean, in the prequels where exactly is the "everything worked out for the band of heroes" narrative. It isn't there. Both good guys and bad guys get killed all the time.
The point is, too many plot threads were started, and then just abort without any real pay-off for the audience, either negative or positive. For example, for the failed hacking mission, they fail, however they're saved at the last moment by a Deus Ex Machina. That's ... not any better, nor is it new to the series. It's no different to R2 getting them out of the trash compactor. Except the trash compactor scene was actually cool.
But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine. I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that. That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot.Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
No, they basically reset everything that happened in this movie, you really didn't pick that up.Uh-huh. All an artless conspiracy, I'm sure.
The specific fleets in question only existed during this movie, they were destroyed. But they were also concocted for this specific movie. It's symbolized by Holdo's death. She was concocted for this movie, is synonymous with the fleet, and dies along with it. Since she had no history at all, trying to wring some emotion out of her death is like trying to wring blood from a stone. Han being frozen mattered because he was an established, core character. The care characters are what actually matters, not some bullshit about the First Order.
Rian Johnson was clearly given some specific directions. Get rid of snoke, and the whole team needs to be together at the end to fly off into the sunset for the next movie. That's it, that's the entire relevance of this plot to the next movie, more or less, though they'll stretch out some of the dialogue to band-aid over any seams.
The new bridge crew took her side. Which would seem to imply that all surviving high ranking officers knew.But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine. I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that. That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot.Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
But hey, gotta have some strong female characters. Ackbar died for this.
I think you're the one who's missing the point. Your judgement of this movie is silly counterfactual. Movies that aren't standalone exist in context with other members of the series, and so are rightfully considered in that context.
"What if Star Wars wasn't Star Wars and nobody watched it but it was the same, would it still be good?" Who gives a shit? That isn't what happened!
Your judgement of this movie is silly
Who gives a shit?
The new bridge crew took her side. Which would seem to imply that all surviving high ranking officers knew.But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine. I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that. That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot.Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
But hey, gotta have some strong female characters. Ackbar died for this.
Poe fails information compartmentalization forever. He found out about the transports IIRC because he's because he's friends with all the pilots, who did need to know the transports were going to launch. And to them it probably made sense to tell Poe that. Then he preceded to tell that information to two people who had no reason to know. If he had been like Holdo, what he would have told them is "get the tracker down in the next 60 seconds or we're fucked." Without telling them why.
The plotline is about Poe learning from Holdo and Leia. Its part of the movie's larger theme about failure and what you do afterwards. The thing about the Poe + Finn thread of the story that a lot of people seem to be grappling with is that everyone's actions made sense to them. Out of Holdo, Leia, Poe, Finn and Rose, no one is villainous or particularly foolish. Poe's a hotheaded idiot but he's a hotheaded idiot in a way that usually works out for the rebels and Leia recognizes that. I've personally always thought that out of the original trio Poe most resembles Leia herself when she was younger.
Everything that does not involve Kylo Ren, Rey or Luke (and even some sections that do) is just pointless.
Rey and Kylo Ren are both crazy now, the latter having assumed control of the First Order. The galaxy is now presumably in chaos, having collapsed the New Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order leaving lesser forces to splinter or begin mercenary activities.
Ah, but none of that really matters, does it? Because random smuggler Han Solo is so vitally important that him getting frozen has larger consequences, or something. Oh, does it matter on the character level? But the movie just ended with him frozen, so it doesn't ever go anywhere, he's basically dead.
Everything that does not involve Kylo Ren, Rey
I don't know why all the complaint about stuff in the movie that "didn't have a result." It's much more like real life that way - "we tried this, and it failed! It was pointless! It was a wrong turn! It didn't turn out the way I expected!"
It's actually kind of refreshing from the "every single small moment in the story is successful and/or has an awesome purpose and/or we succeeded despite terrible odds." I mean, I thought it was actually nice that they failed to disable the tracking device - it was a million-to-one mission, and it actually failed!
Something I've just realized about this thread and most of the discussion on this movie though - it's lots of what people don't like - but very little of discussion what people were expecting. I feel like most of the disappointment and dislike is due to unmet expectations. But what expectations were there? Stuff like that...
That seems to be catastrophizing a bit. Basically anyone who doesn't have a positive view of the movie on balance is accused of "calling it the worst movie of all time". Nobody is even calling it the worst Star Wars movie of all time.You realize including the Holiday Special is a bit of cheating, is it not?
Literally nobody has done anything like that, we've just said it was a boring movie with a substandard plot structure. "Below average" in movie terms. Not up to snuff. Pick any science fiction movie you know nothing about that's airing at the cinema, and more likely than not, it will be a better movie that The Last Jedi. None of these things equate to "worst movie of all time".It's... a mater of scale, and perhaps indeed expectations. When you go to see Star Wars, or even any "loud" movie that is popular, you kind of expect it to carry a certain quality behind it, even having no idea about it beforehand. It doesn't have to be amazing, but at least solid in overwhelming majority, and when it's not, you understandably feel that something has gone terribly wrong and the movie is popular for no particular reason. Meanwhile The Last Jedi is... not solid at all. There are gaping internal (setting aside the problems with the rest of universe as a whole) plotholes, characters that for some reason are supposed to be important, but really don't feel like they are, and so on, the list has been already repeated many times in this thread. It would have been fine if it was random movie that nobody really cared for in mass popular culture, but since it's Star Wars, it's so popular and since people (critics, apparently) DO actually call it the best Star Wars movie, it does tend to ring a bell in your head questioning wether you and the people who love it have saw the same movie.
Nobody who didn't like the movie is going around accusing it's fans of calling it "the best movie of all time".
You've forgotten the Ewok Adventures, Ispil. And the Holiday Special. If someone was saying it's the worst Star Wars movie of all time then those would come up.Read the quotes above. One of them, word for word, contains the phase "worst Star Wars movie ever made."
I... struggle to see what's romantic about Anakin and Padme.I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.
Okay, you can look at that as bad dialogue. Or you can look at it as jedi wisdom about why you should never have sex on a beach.Prequel Jedis were celibate (just like sequel Jedis if Luke's smelly old hobo attire is representative of anything). This means that they are inexperienced in pickup lines.
Or maybe they are trained like that so that they stay celibate, what do I knowIf Sequel Jedis are representative of anything, they are. (https://img00.deviantart.net/e0b1/i/2016/041/1/a/reylo___my_heart_will_go_on_by_liberlibelula-d9r85l4.jpg)
Is Rey's nobodyness cause for scorn? Imo the move away from midochlorian lineages and into the force being mystical bullshit that more reflects a person's personality than their CK2 dynasty as per the original trilogy is gud. Helps promote developing an actual personality for the character if the writers stop drinking detergent
Expand the universe. Tell more modest stories about a wider variety of characters. Get away from the rebel vs empire thing, even. Maybe give me a Cowboy Bebop style thing about a random group of space adventurers who just try and feed themselves while dealing with personal baggage, and have nothing to do with the force. I like the setting itself, so give me a different vehicle for exploring it.
This isn't a complaint aimed exclusively at Star Wars, either. It's something most major modern fiction franchises frustrate me with. The whole idea that as the property matures, it has to be revealed that every major character has some super hidden secret past connection to every other character which gets revealed eventually, like all of reality bends around this handful of people. No one can be allowed to be just people who happened to come and go from each other's lives and did something meaningful along the way like real life. And cool settings don't get what they deserve, because writers have to be pushed to always one-up whatever the last thing was, meaning increasingly shocking (increasingly hard to do without being increasingly contrived) revelations and levels of conflict that overwhelm the stage.
The reason the internet was overflowing with ridiculous theories about Rey's parentage wasn't that there is this supposed Law of Lineage but because tFA set up a situation where her parentage was unknown and then stressed that it mattered. This is a fault of the new movies, not the old ones. It's like if TFA set up a table for a table cloth pull away trick, but then tLJ shows up and pulls down your pants instead - sure, it's a twist, but it's a bad twist, an unreveal instead of a reveal when the only reason you thought there was going to be a reveal was because they set it up. And then they play up the "DESTROY THE PAST" aspect but it doesn't actually feel like they're breaking any sort of Holy Star Wars Constitution, rather all they're breaking is the set up of the previous, new movie. Besides that it's just a return to the status quo, to what "the Past" actually was.
And that's the thing. I feel that is something tLJ does constantly, over and over again. It keeps repeating "DESTROY THE PAST" but it doesn't actually offer anything new, it's just as much a rehash of tESB as tFA was of aNH. The one opportunity for something it brings to the table, Rey joining Kylo (and what is probably my favourite non-visual part of the movie), they're to cowardly to actually pursue, immediately turning it down in favour of the status quo, the good VS evil, Jedi vs Sith, the Very Much The Same As The Past They Say They Are Destroying mentality. When the movie makes a point out of saying something like DESTROY THE PAST but then just delivers the Same Old, all I'm hearing is "destroy the past, so that we can sell it to you again, and again and again!" It's like the remaking trend and creativity death of the last 20 years actually came alive and spoke to you through the script. It's Consumerism of the highest degree applied to creative arts. "You need this phone!" says Apple, and you buy it. Two years later they go "Destroy the Past! Buy this new phone!" and when you ask why, what does the new phone add, they repeat "Destroy the Past!" on a higher volume. That is the message of tLJ in a nutshell.
This isn't a complaint aimed exclusively at Star Wars, either. It's something most major modern fiction franchises frustrate me with. The whole idea that as the property matures, it has to be revealed that every major character has some super hidden secret past connection to every other character which gets revealed eventually, like all of reality bends around this handful of people. No one can be allowed to be just people who happened to come and go from each other's lives and did something meaningful along the way like real life. And cool settings don't get what they deserve, because writers have to be pushed to always one-up whatever the last thing was, meaning increasingly shocking (increasingly hard to do without being increasingly contrived) revelations and levels of conflict that overwhelm the stage.Bethesda syndrome. Where no main characters are allowed to be dudes who experience a rich and unique setting, they have to be the messiah returning to alter the course of every civilization, present in every defining event
I think it's a ridiculous point to make because I don't think it was a point that needed to be made in the first place - I have never felt "only family blood matters super duper ever" was a Star Wars law that somehow had to be followed. The series is full of characters whose lineages doesn't matter. Sure, "Vader is Luke's father" is the twist in one of the movies, and Luke's family ties to Vader is the means by which he gets through to him in RotJ, but that never meant there was some set in stone law that every character, or even every main character, had to be related to someone important. If anything, that the original trilogy revealed Vader, Luke, and Leia were family was a thing people made jokes about, that people knew were a bit ridiculous and embarrassing.Quoted for truth
The reason the internet was overflowing with ridiculous theories about Rey's parentage wasn't that there is this supposed Law of Lineage but because tFA set up a situation where her parentage was unknown and then stressed that it mattered. This is a fault of the new movies, not the old ones. It's like if TFA set up a table for a table cloth pull away trick, but then tLJ shows up and pulls down your pants instead - sure, it's a twist, but it's a bad twist, an unreveal instead of a reveal when the only reason you thought there was going to be a reveal was because they set it up. And then they play up the "DESTROY THE PAST" aspect but it doesn't actually feel like they're breaking any sort of Holy Star Wars Constitution, rather all they're breaking is the set up of the previous, new movie. Besides that it's just a return to the status quo, to what "the Past" actually was.
And that's the thing. I feel that is something tLJ does constantly, over and over again. It keeps repeating "DESTROY THE PAST" but it doesn't actually offer anything new, it's just as much a rehash of tESB as tFA was of aNH. The one opportunity for something it brings to the table, Rey joining Kylo (and what is probably my favourite non-visual part of the movie), they're to cowardly to actually pursue, immediately turning it down in favour of the status quo, the good VS evil, Jedi vs Sith, the Very Much The Same As The Past They Say They Are Destroying mentality. When the movie makes a point out of saying something like DESTROY THE PAST but then just delivers the Same Old, all I'm hearing is "destroy the past, so that we can sell it to you again, and again and again!" It's like the remaking trend and creativity death of the last 20 years actually came alive and spoke to you through the script. It's Consumerism of the highest degree applied to creative arts. "You need this phone!" says Apple, and you buy it. Two years later they go "Destroy the Past! Buy this new phone!" and when you ask why, what does the new phone add, they repeat "Destroy the Past!" on a higher volume. That is the message of tLJ in a nutshell.
all I'm hearing is "destroy the past, so that we can sell it to you again, and again and again!"This is delightfully Orwellian?
Speaking of the bomber wings, whatever happened to the accompanying fighter wing? People learned pretty quick that you either need to accompany bombers with fighters or fly at night if you don't have absolute or near absolute air superiority.It's always night in space! All space combat is night combat!
I'd imagine the same rule applies to space combat if the mega destroyer or star destroyer could still spit out fighters. Of course though, they were being desperate.
And also, complete breakage of physics since the bombs wouldn't just drop as if they were in atmosphere.Internal gravity field 'launches' the bombs. Saves on anything more complex than (the ubiquitous!) artificial gravity, and therefore proof against all anti-energy shielding methods if you're 'dropping' dumb-bombs in freefall.
Quote from: SalmonGodThis isn't a complaint aimed exclusively at Star Wars, either. It's something most major modern fiction franchises frustrate me with. The whole idea that as the property matures, it has to be revealed that every major character has some super hidden secret past connection to every other character which gets revealed eventually, like all of reality bends around this handful of people. No one can be allowed to be just people who happened to come and go from each other's lives and did something meaningful along the way like real life. And cool settings don't get what they deserve, because writers have to be pushed to always one-up whatever the last thing was, meaning increasingly shocking (increasingly hard to do without being increasingly contrived) revelations and levels of conflict that overwhelm the stage.
And how can't you see that this is exactly what they've been doing in the new trilogy so far? Now they have AN EVEN BIGGER DEATHSTARPLANET! Bigger Star Destroyer! Bigger Lasers! Leia can suddenly use the Force too! Luke can now project himself throughout the universe! Kylo is stronger than anyone before! Rey is more powerful than anyone before! Our ships now crash ibto each other at light speed for spectacular sights! The rebel forces are smaller and weaker than any time before! The odds are higher! Stakes are greater! EVERYTHING IS MORE THAN IT EVER WAS! We shot the Past with our giantpeniseslaser cannons and the Past went down like a little bitch (it didn't even have planetary system destroying guns to defend itself with)!
What you want from Star Wars is in the complete opposite direction of what we're actually shown it's going. The corporate narrative is that it's different, but what we get is the same old. It's exactly like my Apple example above. Kill the Past so we can sell it to you over and over again. Just look at the Pirates of the Caribbean movies to see where Star Wars is going.
Is Rey's nobodyness cause for scorn? Imo the move away from midochlorian lineages and into the force being mystical bullshit that more reflects a person's personality than their CK2 dynasty as per the original trilogy is gud. Helps promote developing an actual personality for the character if the writers stop drinking detergent
The "everyone's a force user" thing is also pretty convenient if you want to make endless sequels and side-stories. Then, you can have budding Jedi popping up wherever and whenever you like, without having to work out how they fit into some larger scheme of things. Perfect for a studio like Disney who'd like to spin off 100 Star Wars related series in all directions.
I don't think this by itself actually makes the writing any better or worse. However, sometimes having constraints on the origin of a character can make you get more creative. "Write whatever you like" sounds liberating, however, things flow better if you have constraints, and constraints cause you to think of ideas that you'd never come up with if you're given carte blank to write "whatever".
e.g. would Kylo Ren be a more developed and interesting character if his parents had also been "nobody"? Or would they have just concocted some hokey backstory that's emotionally unrelated to anything else in the series like they did for Rey? Or Anakin Skywalker for that matter. His story is pretty dark for a main character in any movie series, and it's written like that because of the constraints of who he is and how he fits into a larger narrative that's not his own. If he'd been written "from scratch" and not been woven into the bigger narrative of his family, it's certain that he'd end up as a more traditional hero type character: the story constraints forced the writers to write him as an anti-hero, in a movie series that's all about plain old regular heroes.
Another real risk, is that the Star Wars saga was always about family. If they take it in a new direction where family doesn't really matter, which is where the new movies are going, then they lose that aspect of talking to the whole "human condition". With the high attrition rate of any old characters (either original movies old, or anyone significant who's old in the new movies), the last movie looks likely to be just about a bunch of late teens aged kids battling it out for the fate of the universe.
e.g. Finn, Poe and Rey: none of them have parents or siblings who are really part of the main narrative at all (poe's parents being in a comic don't count. They're not characters referenced in the movies). Notice however, that all three main human characters in the original trilogy turn out to be, or end up being, connected by family bonds.
2rogue2oneTwo rogues one
Snoke was really Kylo's father.Older scarred bald men?
Leia was into some kinky stuff.
Not older scarred bald men specifically, but... (http://i.imgur.com/QtrAXS3.gif)Aieeee! The CLE-004 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CLE-004_window_cleaning_droid/Legends), it does nothing!
Snoke was really Kylo's father.Older scarred bald men?
Leia was into some kinky stuff.
Wow, Leia sure had daddy issues
The cheek kisses don't count. Families do that. I forgot about the one time he was unconscious. That makes Leia an incestuous rapist. Mouth kissing someone who's incapacitated? That's problematic.She's neither because
"problematic" it comes across like you're trying to insult female victims
Pretty sure Reelya was being extremely sarcastic there :DYeah, that's my complaint. If he had just said what he meant in a straightforward manner I would have been fine with it. Kissing unconscious people isn't OK.
Okay, how about this. What is the joke here and who is the butt of the joke?Quote"problematic" it comes across like you're trying to insult female victims
Parodying the term "problematic" isn't insulting anything-victims, because the term is specifically splashed around against things that are pretty innocuous. e.g. pink girls toys are problematic.
or a "surprise, Snoke is alive" move. Many people actually seem to be considering this. Im this scenario, Fake Luke would be foreshadowing.
TBH I think its bad writing either way
Totally dead? You mean like Jon Snow?
The director of the movie said that Snoke is dead dead, he's not bringing him back or anything.
Rose was a very poorly written character with little legitimate background or personality. Sure, she says things that are relevant to who she is when it is conveniently related to the task at hand, but she has no real character spine, flip flopping between becoming a hero, falling in love with Finn, and uh... being actual self-insert Rian Johnson fan fiction.Is that the character who stopped Finn from saving all of his friends and then lectured him about how he ought to fight to defend his friends?
Rose was a very poorly written character with little legitimate background or personality. Sure, she says things that are relevant to who she is when it is conveniently related to the task at hand, but she has no real character spine, flip flopping between becoming a hero, falling in love with Finn, and uh... being actual self-insert Rian Johnson fan fiction.Is that the character who stopped Finn from saving all of his friends and then lectured him about how he ought to fight to defend his friends?
So disclaimer, I don't think Kylo Ren's actor looks particularly odd and the shirtless scene meant nothing to me except a chuckle.
Now that we've got that out of the way, this video about the shirtless scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn6azlyHzuU) is hilarious.
Also, the amulet which she inexplictibly trades away (she does get it back later) just happening to be the most awesomest conductor material seems a little too convenient.Basically it was a "give up your most precious relic (just because some dude asked you for it, without explanation) and not only will it turn out to be a worthy sacrifice for the cause but you'll also get it back anyway" faith/morality thing.
It's not that bad, he's just a strong dude. The weird part is him being shirtless, not the fact that he could fight a bear.
It's not that bad, he's just a strong dude. The weird part is him being shirtless, not the fact that he could fight a bear.
But why is even that weird? RotJ had metal bikini time, not to mention an actual exotic dancer that got eaten by the Rancor. That sort of thing is fairly normal in the Star Wars universe.
Shirtless Kylo is just chilling without so much as an inkling of why.Hey, he's got to do the laundry sometime. :P
Isn't he like sweaty too though? Was he just jacking off when the mental link randomly activated?
Edit: Also, just to be clear. A person at a random moment in their lives being shirtless and glistening breaks immersion. A slugman being specifically attracted to human(esque) females despite having a very non-human bodytype, a criminal overlord wanting to humiliate a minor enemy* more than he wants massive ransom, and yet just giving Luke the normal run of the mill punishment... none of that broke your immersion?HUMAN FURRIES. SLUG HUMANIES. MONSTER GIRL WAIFUS. JABBA THE SLUT WANTS MONSTER GIRL WAIFUS.
Isn't he like sweaty too though? Was he just jacking off when the mental link randomly activated?
He most likely just stepped out of the shower.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well why couldn't the connection stay after Snoke died?
If he just plugged a Force cord in there's no reason it couldn't stay plugged in even if he died
Star Wars Ep 8 == Highlander 2 ??
What if he wasn't really shirtless? What if Snoke, as the facilitator of the connection, made him look shirtless to create confusion?!?! That's why it looked so unnatural.
no, rhythm.What if he wasn't really shirtless? What if Snoke, as the facilitator of the connection, made him look shirtless to create confusion?!?! That's why it looked so unnatural.
The Dark Side is all about passion, right?
Well, killing off all the characters would certainly bring an end to things very quickly.
Well, killing off all the characters would certainly bring an end to things very quickly.
Aside from one cheesy moment and characters with unrealized potential, R1 was pretty damn good.
yeah, my point being that rogue 1 is surprisingly uncontroversially the best star wars movie of the last 30 years but is not particularly characteristic of star warsI think part of what made it different for people was how it was sold. Rogue One advertised in advance that it was going to cut straight into the action with no text crawl.
yeah, my point being that rogue 1 is surprisingly uncontroversially the best star wars movie of the last 30 years but is not particularly characteristic of star wars
-snip-
This compared to TLJ. Based on the trailers I expected about what we got. But I can see why other people wouldn't see it that way. It was following up The Force Awakens, which was basically a whole plot clone of A New Hope, with most of the "new" stuff simply coming from other OT/prequel movies. The Force Awakens is the most "Star Wars" movie that has ever existed, arguably moreso than the *actual* original trilogy movies which are full of a lot of... odd moments that have mostly been forgotten. So then you follow it up with The Last Jedi, which visually resembles the OT more but is the least "Star Wars" movie out of the 8 mainline ones to date. And so people approach the movie with a different mindset than they would Rogue One.
Elephant's gonna press charges the way it's getting felt up by us blind men.
The Force Awakens is the most "Star Wars" movie that has ever existed, arguably moreso than the *actual* original trilogy movies
the plethora of minor characters that never did jack shit. Like the scene with Darth Vader and the bounty hunters, where most of them never come back.
I think I was making a small point and I worded it too strongly lol. I get the comparison between Eragon and SW but I always went to LoTR.The Force Awakens is the most "Star Wars" movie that has ever existed, arguably moreso than the *actual* original trilogy movies
I not 100% certain that is what you are saying, but I get the feeling that what you're saying means that you would consider Eragon the most Star Wars story ever told.
Things like the space worm and trash compactor serve to add unknown elements into the universe. Makes it seem like a larger and more rich setting.I'm trying to explain to you guys that most people don't have a hate boner for the movie, its just a crowd that heavily intersects with bay12...
Luke started out as a whiny bitch and ended up defying the emperor and saving his father. He lost his parental guardians, his hand, fought in an actual war, etc. Rey started out as an incredible badass and ended up as an even more incredible badass with no sacrifice or training, and then the writers/directors get confused as to why people don't like it. It's like that friend who has God Mode on from start to finish and then brags about how good he is at the game.
Like, the movies are fun to watch, but the characters lack any and all substance and show no indication of ever being anything but shallow. People tolerated the copy-paste story from TFA because they were clearly setting up a new story and universe with new characters. TLJ was the one where everyone openly expected characters to deepen and become more interesting, and then they outright avoided it entirely (Except for Kylo Ren, he's developing right along).
Anyway that's the root cause of the hateboner everyone seems to have for it, from what I can tell. I still enjoyed it.
I'm waiting for the action movie that's about a former criminal fighting his old gang while trying to reconnect with his family, and at no point in the movie is his family actually threatened. With the conflict being that he's clearly still the person that his family turned away from and he needs to learn how to change over the course of the movie or its obvious to the audience that he will ultimately fail. Something like that. A more "pure" newschool action movie.
Yet she effortlessly climbs all over the Starkiller base and runs circles around the First Order with no help at all.
But its just weird to me that all the Mary Sue criticisms are emerging now and not before.
Han beats up an armored bounty hunter with a stick,As a side-comment, with a sort of movie-time-twisted prescience involved, clearly there's something of Chirrut in him. Innate latent abilities, as often argued, and by this point he'd started to Believe as well. Thus he overcomes his current disability (but clumsily).
Yet she effortlessly climbs all over the starkiller base and runs circles around the First Order with no help at all.She starts the movie climbing around an Imperial ship, you know. Might be relevent that she has the basic idea, only now slightly complicated by a full crew to hide from (one assumes that she had other Tomb Raiders to hide from at times, at times off-screen, so not a stretch).
Some of the TFA Mary Sue accusations were countered with "yeah, but I'm sure they'll cover that point in Episode 8"....and now people are saying that episode 9 will be the one to clear this mess.
Those are the issues I have. I can separate my distaste for the smaller aspects (why the fleet in the very first scene followed Poe in when he was told by a superior officer to back off, for example, or what the point of the entire sequence on the planet with the casino was.) from my curiosity at how the story ends.
So that giant asteroid worm can breathe in space? It should’ve died in seconds.
i'm posting this because i feel like it's relevant but i'm not sure i agree (https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789)
Also, as my last post mentions (in an edit) jokes like the "space iron" break the fourth wall and pull you out of the story.
That's because the scene is referential, but it's a reference to how Star Wars movies are edited, rather than to things that the characters could be aware of. Basically, it's referencing/reminding you of the fourth wall, which is why it breaks the fourth wall. It sets up a familar scene, then subverts it. So the joke is the subversion itself, which makes you think "oh haha I thought I was watching a docking scene but it was subverted", which is almost like actually writing on the screen "btw this is just a movie, don't get too absorbed in the story, now". But then to top it off, it shoe-horns in a mundane Earth item as the punchline to the gag. So now you're reminded that this is just a movie and you're wondering "do they have irons in Star Wars?" which also breaks immersion.
And because it was so visually in-your-face and broke the fourth wall, i recall them breaking the fourth wall much better than I recall what happened immediately before and after it.
Remember, I said the main reason it broke immersion was because they turned it into a gag about how camera shots in Star Wars work. It's a meta-gag, so it pulls you out of the story.I didn't get the reference and I thought it was funny.
Having it be a mundane modern-Earth item was just an additional thing that pulls you out of the fiction. e.g. the scene is designed so that the shot looks like a "Star Warsy" ship, but then it's reframed to be a mundane item from your everyday experience. The joke here is that the viewers expectations were betrayed. Which can be funny, but definitely gets you thinking on a "meta" level, which pulls your attention out of the story and reminds you that you're just watching a movie, which is a fundamental flaw in film-making for anything that's meant to be dramatic, and not a straight-up comedy/satire/farce.
So the two men who did absolutely nothing to make GoT a good show but took all the credit, and who has sequently made GoT a less good show the more they interfered with it themselves, is getting to work on Star Wars. I am not over noted.
Your loss for not seeing Rogue 1, it's easily the best film since Return in my opinion
Your loss for not seeing Rogue 1, it's easily the best film since Return in my opinion
Rogue One was quite good.
Your loss for not seeing Rogue 1, it's easily the best film since Return in my opinion
*Reads the massive and well thought out, complex discussion of filmographic differences, artistic styles, and plot devices*
Yeah but it was pretty awesome when they fired at Luke and he just brushed his shoulder, like, "Anything else?".
Right? I thought the movie was great.
*Reads the massive and well thought out, complex discussion of filmographic differences, artistic styles, and plot devices*Aw yeah man. *highfive*
Yeah but it was pretty awesome when they fired at Luke and he just brushed his shoulder, like, "Anything else?".
Right? I thought the movie was great.
*fist bump for weirdness**Reads the massive and well thought out, complex discussion of filmographic differences, artistic styles, and plot devices*Aw yeah man. *highfive*
Yeah but it was pretty awesome when they fired at Luke and he just brushed his shoulder, like, "Anything else?".
Right? I thought the movie was great.
No*fist bump for weirdness**Reads the massive and well thought out, complex discussion of filmographic differences, artistic styles, and plot devices*Aw yeah man. *highfive*
Yeah but it was pretty awesome when they fired at Luke and he just brushed his shoulder, like, "Anything else?".
Right? I thought the movie was great.
*Reads the massive and well thought out, complex discussion of filmographic differences, artistic styles, and plot devices*
Yeah but it was pretty awesome when they fired at Luke and he just brushed his shoulder, like, "Anything else?".
Right? I thought the movie was great.
Bro, I hated this scene (but will not say more as it will quickly turn nasty.)
It was the best of films, it was the worst of films.Far more mediocre than this.
It was the most mediocre, it was the least mediocre.
-snip-I can't answer the rest of that, but the EU provided a hypothesis on why Luke might have chosen to live near such a strong Dark Side nexus. In the Thrawn trilogy, Luke posits that Yoda may have chosen to exile himself to Dagobah because of the dark side cave located there (where Luke fought his dream battle against Vader/himself). The idea is that having two strong, opposing Force presences so near each other makes them difficult if not impossible to sense from a distance. They basically cancel each other out.
There's a holocron of "the One Noble Sith", the one dude who apparently lived in a Dark Side nexus (speaking of, why the fuck did Luke decide to 'hide' on an island with a Dark nexus on it? Sith are drawn to those things like flies) without going on a death-and-torture rampage against everything within reach. He only ever played any part in any story because he mastered an otherwise unknown dark art which was later uncovered by a couple more murderbone-prone sith.
-snip-
@Reelya
The more I consider, the more TLJ seems like an attempt to pander to people's feelings on real-world issues without regard to the actual series, or really the actual issues themselves. It feels.... I don't know, wrong, like a cheap attempt to monetize on those things. Then they are prepared to turn around and say hey, if you don't like it, you must not care about these issues, because obviously we care and that's why we did it, don't you care? You have to like this in order to care, what's wrong with you?
Like someone figured out they don't need to make a Star Wars movie to get people to watch it, they just need to check what social issues young people are sending memes about on Facebook this year and add some Star Wars characters into a string of scenes based around them. So you get a 30-m long sequence about space animal cruelty, and the entire movie theme is about how all the old white people ruined everything off screen (ergo before the woke young people got to take a crack at it) and need to atone by just going away already, and if we just believe that our group is right we will definitely BE right, you guys etc etc.
It's like FACEBOOK BUBBLES, THE SPACE MOVIE and also we added MARK HAMILL to it. It's not that those issues are non-existent or unimportant, it's that they want to exploit them for a paycheck and also muck with a famous sci-fi universe for it.
You know, come to think of it, I can't remember ever seeing Flork in the same room as Blork... I mean, he'd often talked about his evil identical twin brother, but maybe he was hiding something?
bombs in star wars battlefront 2 (2005) fell in an arbitrary "down" direction in space battles such that if you flip your Y-wing over and lay a bomb it'll fall up relative to your cockpit
bombs in star wars battlefront 2 (2005) fell in an arbitrary "down" direction in space battles such that if you flip your Y-wing over and lay a bomb it'll fall up relative to your cockpit
For some reason this didn't strike me as stupid when I was playing Battlefront 2. Probably because it wasn't a plot important fact shoved in your face which made you consider the full implications of it.
bombs in star wars battlefront 2 (2005) fell in an arbitrary "down" direction in space battles such that if you flip your Y-wing over and lay a bomb it'll fall up relative to your cockpit
For some reason this didn't strike me as stupid when I was playing Battlefront 2. Probably because it wasn't a plot important fact shoved in your face which made you consider the full implications of it.
In the next Star Wars movie of video game logic applied to movie narratives, Poe Dameron dies in a horrific crash, only to inexplicably respawn at base.
hey wait
I mean, if they're going to be hanging out in one location for a while they'll usually orbit to save on energy. Not to mention that some ships are just too big to enter an atmosphere.Rogue One (un)addresses both of these issues! I don't think we've seen any 'orbit' in use except for Yavin 4's natural orbit around Yavin Prime bringing it into view of where the DS1 had initially arrived in the system, or maybe the DS1 was sublighting itself round YP to see Y4. Or both. Not sure it's properly established, any which way.
Same reason you still need infantry even if you have total air superiority in real life. Because hovering over everyone's head and shooting at them is great and all, but sometimes you need to do things other than shooting.Okay but if they had just hovered over Mos Eisley with a star destroyer for two days they would have won the entire war with ease. The only reason the Falcon could escape is because the at least two star destroyers they had were staying in orbit.
What kinds of things do we see stormtroopers doing in the OT? Boarding a ship with the goal of capturing information and people intact, policing Tatooine, guarding their OWN battlestation, storming the entrenched base on Hoth before the rebels can escape from the the slow AT-AT walkers, strongarming the owner of a floating city, scouting a forest, and again defending their own installation. All of these have fairly plausible reasons to not just want to blow everything up.
In addition keeping a star destroyer hovering close to the ground probably uses a lot more fuel than having them in space, so simple expense can be an issue as well. For the less important places, it might not be worth paying the logistics cost of absurdly heavily armored overwatch, but it would be cost-effective to have a few stormtroopers keeping watch.
This would mean that the fact that there's one hovering over that city in much the same way that bricks don't implies that that city is a valuable asset to the imperials that they don't want to lose, which I personally think is exactly the impression that the movie made.
TL;DR: economics, not physics.
Rebels apparently has no problem showing star destroyers in atmosphere. Disclaimer: I haven't seen Rebels, just came across this in an answer to this post:Lol, egg on my face.
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147527/how-could-a-star-destroyer-hover-over-a-city-in-rogue-one
I recall the falcon dodging multiple star destroyers before jumping into hyperspace in IV. Must be a special edition thing...
TBH I sorta doubt that the Imperials actually "tracked" the droids to Mos Eisley. More likely, they put down a small garrison at each of the planet's major settlements, or perhaps concentrated on Mos Eisley due to its proximity to the Jawas and Luke's home. Considering how barren Tatooine is, there probably aren't many such settlements, and Star Destroyers can carry a lot of soldiers.
As for Vader getting to the Death Star...guys, shuttlecraft exist. So does Vader's personal, hyper-capable TIE. He wouldn't need to pull his SD off of planetary blockade duty in order to check in on how Tarkin was doing when any number of smaller ships could get him there just as quickly.
TBH I sorta doubt that the Imperials actually "tracked" the droids to Mos Eisley. More likely, they put down a small garrison at each of the planet's major settlements, or perhaps concentrated on Mos Eisley due to its proximity to the Jawas and Luke's home. Considering how barren Tatooine is, there probably aren't many such settlements, and Star Destroyers can carry a lot of soldiers.It seems (from memory, maybe adulterated by the transition from the original version into later 'scene enhanced' versions) that having initially had gunners decide not to destroy an escape-capsule with no life on boardą, they then are bothered enough to investigate where it landed in the global desert.
I'm actually talking about how Vader is at Tatooine in the original movie, then he's at the death star conference, but the heroes haven't actually left Tatooine at that point in the story.
My assumption was that he traveled there in his ship, which would mean that his personal star destroyer wasn't on blockade duty at Tatooine at the moment the Falcon takes off.
Where Rogue Ones comes in, is that Rogue One ends at the literal start of A New Hope. Not to give too much away.
Destroying any escape pods can be understood because the goals of the rebels and empire weren't symmetric.
The rebels wanted the plans, while Vader wanted there to be no plans. e.g. blowing up anything that could have the plans makes sense, along with interrogating Leia with "what the hell happened to the plans?" just to cover their asses.
However, remember that Tarkin wasn't concerned about the plans, and apparently let the heroes escape so that they'd head to the rebel base. Tarkin probably could have ordered his men to nab the droids, but he didn't. Because the droids had the plans on them, and if the rebels lost the plans they might not head directly to rebel base. e.g. Darth Vader is all about "get me those plans, or destroy them" while Tarkin was more willing to risk the plans falling into rebel hands, if that could be used as bait.
I don’t remember at what point in the movie he showed up at the conference, but there’s at least a day, at minimum, of C3PO and R2D2 wandering around before getting captured by the jawas, an unknown amount of time riding the sandcrawler, and from there, at least two days before getting to Mos Eisley. So, with hyperdrive, plenty of time for him to get to the meeting. Doesn’t seem like any complex contortion needed to explain it away. Heck, a couple hours might be enough.
One could also leave extra star destroyers in case the rebels showed up with a fleet after hearing that princess leia had been captured and/or the plans were not found with her.
The rebel intelligence network has been shown to be quite effective.
One could also leave extra star destroyers in case the rebels showed up with a fleet after hearing that princess leia had been captured and/or the plans were not found with her.
The rebel intelligence network has been shown to be quite effective.
Well, when you have enough sacrificial Bothans, many things can be accomplished that some would consider unnatural.
One could also leave extra star destroyers in case the rebels showed up with a fleet after hearing that princess leia had been captured and/or the plans were not found with her.
The rebel intelligence network has been shown to be quite effective.
Well, when you have enough sacrificial Bothans, many things can be accomplished that some would consider unnatural.
Indeed, the only reason the Bothan race still exists at all is because of a massive dark ritual that spilled catastrophic amounts of Bothan blood, but secured the survival of their species for eternity.
The cost, well... They became a race of sacrificial lambs, doomed to serve as offerings for the rest of time.
One could also leave extra star destroyers in case the rebels showed up with a fleet after hearing that princess leia had been captured and/or the plans were not found with her.
That "door in the planetary shield" thing (totally stolen from Spaceballs!) seems to indicate zero practical movement w.r.t. the planetary surface (and looks too close to be a FOOsynchronous point, but does somewhat depending on Planet FOO's own spin and day-length)....etc, I just saw this (https://youtu.be/VT8Lvzfz7iw) and pretty much think that it copies all my thoughts on the above subject, and the whole Space Bomber thing.
Solo: A Star Wars Story shows us the hero all feminist men have been waiting for
Might also be because Solo's not very good. I've heard it compared to prequel movie from 2005 in overall quality? As fun as it is to blame feminism for literally everything, it wasn't what turned people off from TLJ and it's probably not what's happening here.
neofems
But did the movie get as much international support (language/advertising/distribution) as TLJ? I think it pretty much just flew under the radar for a lot of people.I didn´t know it was out. I don´t know if at this point I rate as "international" given that for the most part I work (albeit in a fairly private manner) in a (mostly) English speaking country. But I came home for the weekend and I hadn´t heard anything about Solo here either. Whereas during TLJ in both Ireland and Spain you could see merchandising and adverts in media, supermarkets, and social networks.
I think the studio gravely overestimated the amount of want there was for a movie about Han.This is probably the major thing... The whole movie stinks of cash-in from a mile off, and I think even the hardest-dying fans picked up on that. This wasn't "Disney does Rogue One", this was "Horse (deceased) viciously assaulted by studio executives".
Who even mentioned that?I thought you did?
e.g. the dominant media narrative is that everyone loved TLJ except for a tiny sliver of neo-fascist haters. e.g. if the "male feminist" Solo thing is real (and it seems real given how the article is saying it's a good thing), then this movie was their chance to prove that the haters really are just a tiny, loud and non-representative group. Obviously, if that was true then overtly doubling-down on feminist stuff in the movie shouldn't tank the box-office take, since there shouldn't be enough "haters" out there to tank the sales. But of course, if you were already wedded to the narrative that sidelined the haters as a tiny irrelevant minority, then you'd always find another reason to explain away why Solo ticket sales collapsed (confirmation bias, circular logic, etc).Unless you're just saying that neofeminists aren't to blame for anything, but that (as an aside) they would probably interpret this and this as such and such and react accordingly. Just as a fun fact, since it doesn't tie in to responsibility for either the film's make or its reception.
Solo: A Star Wars Story shows us the hero all feminist men have been waiting for
...
Were Kylo Ren real and alive today, you strongly suspect he would be one of those enraged, hysterical followers of Jordan Peterson's morose YouTube ramblings
L3-37, voiced by Phoebe Waller-Bridge, is no go-along, get-along machine. She’s a robot revolutionary, demanding equal rights and sowing dissent among servants. You might call her Star Wars’ first woke bot.
Solo didn't get seen because it's a disastrously produced, horribly advertised, inexplicably cast Extruded Star Wars Product that nobody asked for, just like The Force Awakens was.Y'know, I haven't really felt like checking, but is this solo thing actually related in any way to the EU pre-movies solo trilogy books? Lando had something similar, and I vaguely remember one or both being kinda' neat.
Here's what they'll do: Episode IX will end with the baddies winning and creating the New Empire. Stay tuned for episodes X - XII to see what happens next, kids.You 're wrong. They are going for some lame gray jedi and gray shit thing in order to provide a setting for a future MMORPG
Have a Young Leia movie and an Obi Wan movie to tide you over. Hell, let's pick some anti-heroes and they get their own movies. The Boba Fett movie.
Make a Sand People-centric film where one of them finds that Sith Holocron mentioned previously and starts a glorious rebellion to overthrow the colonizers who came down from the sky. Get wild with it!
Here's what they'll do: Episode IX will end with the baddies winning and creating the New Empire. Stay tuned for episodes X - XII to see what happens next, kids.You 're wrong. They are going for some lame gray jedi and gray shit thing in order to provide a setting for a future MMORPG
Have a Young Leia movie and an Obi Wan movie to tide you over. Hell, let's pick some anti-heroes and they get their own movies. The Boba Fett movie.
Make a Sand People-centric film where one of them finds that Sith Holocron mentioned previously and starts a glorious rebellion to overthrow the colonizers who came down from the sky. Get wild with it!
Dialogue
"Oor Oor Oor"
"Oor Oor Oor, Ooooor!"
"Set in the X universe". Yeah, i'm not really convinced that it's necessary, and that's not a Star Wars specific thing. Just make a new setting for something like that, unless the story concept is something that absolutely can't be done without attaching it to the franchise. e.g. the more stuff that could be standalone that actually is standalone, the more things have to stand on their own two legs rather than be an extra "thing" you need to see just because it's attached to a specific franchise. There's too much out there already without them attaching extraneous story stuff to everything else.
50 Shades of Grey JediHere's what they'll do: Episode IX will end with the baddies winning and creating the New Empire. Stay tuned for episodes X - XII to see what happens next, kids.You 're wrong. They are going for some lame gray jedi and gray shit thing in order to provide a setting for a future MMORPG
Have a Young Leia movie and an Obi Wan movie to tide you over. Hell, let's pick some anti-heroes and they get their own movies. The Boba Fett movie.
If they go for "Grey Jedi" then it's kinda obvious then that it will be Rei and Kylo then "going grey", at a guess. And if you're right about an MMO then takes the place of the strictly "movie" set of sequels I was thinking of. I guess the reason they like that is that an MMO can milk you for money constantly instead of once per year.
Dialogue
"Oor Oor Oor"
"Oor Oor Oor, Ooooor!"
Dialogue
"Oor Oor Oor"
"Oor Oor Oor, Ooooor!"
No, no, the Sand People sound fine in this hypothetical film and are perfectly understandable. It's the humans in Mos Eisley or whatever who communicate in unintelligible roaring instead while putting on bewildering expressions.
and people seemed upset about Donald Glover, maybe?
It resolves what he meant by "under 12 parsecs", unless that's a different book.Pretty sure it's stated in Empire that Lando is pissed because Han stole his ship.
Probably a different book.
Maybe it resolves what he did to Lando to make him upset at him in Empire.
I saw it. It was alright. --Pretty much my thoughts. The storyline with L3 and her droid liberation was pretty much pointless pandering, but luckily didn't get in the way of the actually pretty decent and intriguing heist storyline. It wasn't a great movie, but it was alright and had some nice action.
Also, not entirely sure how it’s a feminist movie.
I mean, I'm sure he didn't, but the story explained in some of the EU books is actually fairly reasonable and interesting, hence why I'm sticking with it.
The real story is that Lukas doesn't understand parsecs, but okay.
Saw Solo last night. *AGH* Mixed feelings ahoy. Y'all overreacting on the liberation "subplot", subplot is a pretty gratuitous label for it. I was cringing because I was expecting something more, but honestly, it was all fairly inconsequential.
e.g. from all that I know, and i've skipped reading most of your post to avoid spoilers since I might watch it on TV one day, is that it's all about sexy black pansexual dudes, and feminist liberation class warfare bots.
Um ya, the whole "Lando is pan" comment is a bit overblown.
And finally, she gets to save Finn's life by... fucking up his whole mission in a really pointless and overdramatic way?This was the only time in my life I almost impulsively yelled at a movie screen in a theater filled with people.
He meets Rey, she seems interesting, fuck it,Dark side's all 'bout passion, so yes that might have had something to do with it.
What I mean with "fake subversive" is that I didn't really find it to be subversive at all. There's this atmosphere about how it breaks with the mold, and tradition, and all that... when it's actually pretty tame and you can see most things coming from a mile away.
What I mean with "fake subversive" is that I didn't really find it to be subversive at all. There's this atmosphere about how it breaks with the mold, and tradition, and all that... when it's actually pretty tame and you can see most things coming from a mile away.
I agree here.
Consider another term "inclusive". Saying that anything that attempts to be subversive must be subversive because it "subverts" is not far off saying that the one token female or black character in the team is "inclusive", because it "includes".
Things can "include" in ways that are cynical with paper-thin rationales that backfire and fail to be "inclusive". And I'm thinking similarly shoddy subversion could work the same way.
Destroying priceless records of galactic history was annoying to me.
Oh! I missed that entirely. Thank you.
I did enjoy Yoda's remark about how they were not exactly riveting reading.
I did enjoy Yoda's remark about how they were not exactly riveting reading."Bitch, I'm 900 years old and I ain't got time to read that shit"
BObviously the Jedi are in the right, becuase the Sith are evil, and the force will simply retroactively justify any measure the Jedi take to destroy them.
I'm pretty sure Yoda knew Rey had already taken the books, too. After destroying the tree, he tells Luke: "Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess."
Only the Sith deals in absolutes!
Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity. Jedi/Sith are powerful, but they aren't invincible :PMeanwhile my group has a running gag that falling off a cliff, *especially* in Star Wars, is a surefire way to survive an otherwise lethal situation.
I have literally never heard of any of those... people? Despite my brother being EU-obsessed. While I enjoyed much of the EU, secondhand, the movies should be judged on their own merits. Especially now that the EU is literally mere fanon, despite their attempts to couch that lazy decision. Even if they hadn't done that, the movies should at least basically work on their own.The problem is he is powerful force entity and it's hard to think that nobody fucking heard of him before, really.
Have you heard of the Father, Son, Daughter, Bendu, various other powerful force entities which rarely come up and nobody's heard of? This is also a star wars staple in canon.
I'm working through the first pages from months ago. So much I'd love to respond to, and maybe will eventually. Or not.Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity. Jedi/Sith are powerful, but they aren't invincible :PMeanwhile my group has a running gag that falling off a cliff, *especially* in Star Wars, is a surefire way to survive an otherwise lethal situation.
Sherlock Holmes, Boba Fett, Luke, Lupin the Third, Darth Maul...
So I didn't see anyone bringing it up in this thread so I think its worth discussing. Solo had some production drama and was essentially shot twice. Spoilers ahead.
I have some guesses as to which scenes were kept from the original shoot; I think the trademark isn't just jokes but scenes that went too easily. For example when Han bet an expensive ship he didn't have to Lando and lost; that debt was never brought back and it bothered me the whole time.
Research Finds 50% of Last Jedi Backlash Was Political Trolling
a sphere is the maximally symmetric shape. But it's hell on the aerodynamics, since how much force an object experiences from air molecules as it travels through an atmosphere
...
As Grand Moff Tarkin points out, unlike the sensibly designed Star Destroyers, where air molecules mostly glance off the sides as the spacecraft travel through the atmosphere
That brings up another issue. The Death Star was constructed in space, a realm where massive things (moons, planets) tend to take on a spherical shape due to gravity. But when Orlin did the calculations, he found that the size at which objects take on the shape of a sphere is about 400 kilometers in diameter, which is significantly larger than the ~160km Death Star.
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds
Heh, while we're on the Star Wars topic for a while, I saw some "physics-based" critique of the Death Star's design on youtube which didn't make a single lick of sense. The main criticisms were these:Haha, wow. I guess the argument is that it's "unnatural" to make spheres that small, because they don't appear naturally. There's probably a name for that fallacy, at least I hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ8mRS5zAro
This one claims it would take 830,000 years at current rates of steel production to make enough for a death star, then you'd have to blast it all into space on rockets, thus leaving the Earth's atmosphere uninhabitable. So, no Death Star. Uh, really, that's a terrible argument. Common sense would suggest that you'd use material in the asteroid belt to make it, and once you have space industry kickstarted, then you'd clearly expect capacity to grow exponentially. Assuming that steel production capacity never increases from right now is plainly idiotic. How could anyone think that such a line of "logical" argument made any sense at all?
also this one:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/the-math-of-why-its-so-hard-to-build-a-spherical-death-star-in-space/Quotea sphere is the maximally symmetric shape. But it's hell on the aerodynamics, since how much force an object experiences from air molecules as it travels through an atmosphere
...
As Grand Moff Tarkin points out, unlike the sensibly designed Star Destroyers, where air molecules mostly glance off the sides as the spacecraft travel through the atmosphere
What "air molecules"? It's in space, dickhead. For a physicist you're really good at the math calculations but obviously not so great at common sense.QuoteThat brings up another issue. The Death Star was constructed in space, a realm where massive things (moons, planets) tend to take on a spherical shape due to gravity. But when Orlin did the calculations, he found that the size at which objects take on the shape of a sphere is about 400 kilometers in diameter, which is significantly larger than the ~160km Death Star.
What sort of retarded point is this? Can you see the labored train of logic that lead to this brain-melting point. Massive things don't form into spheres due to gravity until 400km diameter. The Death Star is less than 400km diameter, therefore it cannot be a sphere. Checkmate, atheists.
If you look at the history of the universe, you can see that the steel production has increased significantly over time.No sir, I challenge your logic. What we can infer is that since the production of all metallic substances was obviously much higher a long long time ago, that steel production on a cosmic scale has in fact DECREASED at a worrying overall rate, and that by this logic within the next 100 years we may find that we can no longer produce it.
Therefore, one can conclude that "a long time ago", steel production wouldn't just be less than on earth in 2018, but perhaps even negative.
Chess tape, magnetits
Heh, while we're on the Star Wars topic for a while, I saw some "physics-based" critique of the Death Star's design on youtube which didn't make a single lick of sense. The main criticisms were these:It's as if a million nerds and physicists cried out in agony...I fear we have witnessed terrible idiocy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ8mRS5zAro
This one claims it would take 830,000 years at current rates of steel production to make enough for a death star, then you'd have to blast it all into space on rockets, thus leaving the Earth's atmosphere uninhabitable. So, no Death Star. Uh, really, that's a terrible argument. Common sense would suggest that you'd use material in the asteroid belt to make it, and once you have space industry kickstarted, then you'd clearly expect capacity to grow exponentially. Assuming that steel production capacity never increases from right now is plainly idiotic. How could anyone think that such a line of "logical" argument made any sense at all?
also this one:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/the-math-of-why-its-so-hard-to-build-a-spherical-death-star-in-space/Quotea sphere is the maximally symmetric shape. But it's hell on the aerodynamics, since how much force an object experiences from air molecules as it travels through an atmosphere
...
As Grand Moff Tarkin points out, unlike the sensibly designed Star Destroyers, where air molecules mostly glance off the sides as the spacecraft travel through the atmosphere
What "air molecules"? It's in space, dickhead. For a physicist you're really good at the math calculations but obviously not so great at common sense.QuoteThat brings up another issue. The Death Star was constructed in space, a realm where massive things (moons, planets) tend to take on a spherical shape due to gravity. But when Orlin did the calculations, he found that the size at which objects take on the shape of a sphere is about 400 kilometers in diameter, which is significantly larger than the ~160km Death Star.
What sort of retarded point is this? Can you see the labored train of logic that lead to this brain-melting point. Massive things don't form into spheres due to gravity until 400km diameter. The Death Star is less than 400km diameter, therefore it cannot be a sphere. Checkmate, atheists.
If you look at the history of the universe, you can see that the steel production has increased significantly over time.No sir, I challenge your logic. What we can infer is that since the production of all metallic substances was obviously much higher a long long time ago, that steel production on a cosmic scale has in fact DECREASED at a worrying overall rate, and that by this logic within the next 100 years we may find that we can no longer produce it.
Therefore, one can conclude that "a long time ago", steel production wouldn't just be less than on earth in 2018, but perhaps even negative.
Chess tape, magnetits
Time is the only thing that can melt steel beams.
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: Nelson
You Don't Deserve A Female James Bond Or A Lady Indiana Jones
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Thinking about gender in films made me think of this article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/05/15/you-dont-deserve-a-female-james-bond-or-a-lady-indiana-jones/#475c2027169a), which is relevant to current direction in Star Wars:Before I try to critique the film industry, I should say that I've long been at the point you reach at the end. I am way out of touch with cinema, particularly recent stuff. Case in point, I assumed that Tomb Raider was referring to the 2001 film, and hadn't heard of the new one. I just don't pay attention.QuoteYou Don't Deserve A Female James Bond Or A Lady Indiana Jones
Which sounds harsh, but the article's point is that literally none of these people crying out for "lady Bond" or "lady Indiana Jones" got out to see the new Lara Croft Tomb Raider movie, female-led action spy thriller Atomic Blonde, or female-led action spy thriller Red Sparrow. All got enough decent reviews, but all bombed at the box office. Ladies wanna see more action ladies? Go support original ideas starring women and not just gender-flipped rehashes or old IP that's been dredged up. And one perspective on this gender-flipping is that it kind of sends the message that if women want to be taken seriously they have to play "dress-ups" as a previously male-identified character, rather than have a unique character built around a female identity from the ground up. Gender-flipping an entire existing character is almost like a reverse-drag cosplay rather than an actress making the character her own. Imagine a male Tomb Raider movie with "Larry Croft" doing an imitation of Lara's defining characteristics. It's not going to ring true.
If people want "lady bond" and "lady indiana jones" but they constantly turn their noses up at original adventure and spy movies featuring female lead characters, what exact message is this sending to Hollywood? It's not that audiences want more original works with women in, the actual message is then that you play it safe by having original works with male lead, exhaust the possibilities of that with a trilogy or two, then gender-flip it purely to get publicity and squeeze some life out of a dying franchise, and these gender-flip movies then acts as "proof" that the studio is committed to "diversity", thus absolving them of the onus to make more female-lead originals.
At this stage it's not just Star Wars, I'm at the point that I'm saying "you know what? I'm done with franchises and Hollywood".
QuoteYou Don't Deserve A Female James Bond Or A Lady Indiana Jones
So I see, but I was arguing more against the article:QuoteYou Don't Deserve A Female James Bond Or A Lady Indiana Jones
Also I also enjoyed Tomb Raider (2013) (the game), I think it got a lot of undeserved criticism as "violence porn" and such. Like I pointed out, she does become a legendary badass by the end. However, I also understand people being leery of the series. "She's not just big boobs like we've always advertised her as - now she's a mousy survivor who gets stabbed a lot! Like, in amazing detail, also we're really proud of her ponytail physics!"
Unfortunate optics for an actually laudable attempt to bring the series into Current Year...
If you’re going to ignore the new Lara Croft movie, then you don’t deserve a female Indiana Jones flick. And if you turned your nose at Red Sparrow and Atomic Blonde, then you haven't really earned or justified a female James Bond franchise, either.
Not sure if I am in the majority here, but the vidja game reboot of Tomb Raider might be my favorite modern game/series now.
I got them on sale, and to me nothing else has ever done that whole... Indiana-Jones-esque thing where a hard-proof field scientist goes up against possibly supernatural forces thing quite as well. I'm bad at describing it, but it really, really nails that whole feel. The old Lucasarts adventure games had the same feel this does to me. I think she does Indiana Jones better than Indiana Jones.
She also starts out as a goddam archaeologist. Not like, ha ha I'm an archaeologist with a gun and a whip and 16 contacts in Mumbai, but like a "I've literally never fired a gun before" kind of person. Her transition from that to survivalist is rad as hell. At no point did I get a Mary Sue vibe from this game. Even at the end of the game I felt barely prepared to handle what was happening, but in a good way.
Also doggo is fukkin' terrifying. I admit there is a truly exorbitant number of environmental death scenes. Also, her bones must be made of adamantium with the amount of punishment she takes from various cutscenes/set pieces.
Spoiler: TOMB RAIDER TOMB RAIDER TOMB RAIDER (click to show/hide)
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Played by Will Smith
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Played by Will Smith
Will Smith, who is in turn played by Samuel L. Jackson
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Played by Will Smith
Will Smith, who is in turn played by Samuel L. Jackson
Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Played by Will Smith
Will Smith, who is in turn played by Samuel L. Jackson
Dubbed over by Morgan Freeman
Introduced by Chiwetel Ejiofor, who in turn is introduced by Chadwick Boseman.Dude? It's probably a girl Mandalorian. At this stage they're in balls-deep and if they introduce a white male main character that's not going to end well for them. The ideal choice would be a pacific islander / maori-looking person but realistically they'd probably pick between a black male or white female.Then they remove the helmet and reveal: NelsonMandelaMandala
Played by Will Smith
Will Smith, who is in turn played by Samuel L. Jackson
Dubbed over by Morgan Freeman
The DVD extras include commentary by Laurence Fishburne.
Spoiler: Solo spoiler opinions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Solo spoiler opinions (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Solo spoiler opinions (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I just saw Solo last night... I don't understand all the hate for it. It wasn't a fantastic movie, but by no means was it terrible. It was fun enough - which is really all I was expecting.
I guess I don't get as bent out of shape about all the minutiae...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I thought it was silly, but that whole side thing with Finn was pretty pointless. Like, Finn is a more pointless character than Jar-Jar at this point.
There really wasn't even much of any SJW-related stuff in The Last Jedi, most of the discussion on that was pretty meta. "Didn't like the movie for <vast amount of legit reasons>? You must be a Trump-voting Nazi Russian Bot!".The presence of actual SJW content in something is not necessary for certain groups to blame everything on those dreaded three letters though. You'd think that by the volume of accusations that SJWs are a huge and influential group, but we both know it's not the case. Hell, I think I've only ever met (physically) one person that actually qualifies for the label.
So, yeah, go on the street and poll people and you won't meet many avowed SJWs, but go to American universities and poll the humanities professors and students, those people who are going to be framing the next era of culture, and you're basically not going to find anyone from the conservative half of the population whatsoever, and a good chunk of the most prominent ones will be full-blown SJW.Being politically Liberal =/= being an SJW. As a American, and someone who has been to university there, I haven't met any SJWs, and I've been more far more inconvenienced by people being "anti-SJW" or rebelling against "PC culture" than anything done by the supposed SJWs.
oh here we go again
It had fun parts, sure, but it was objectively bad. Disney's plan seems to be to deny any problem whatsoever forevermore, which will only result in fanning the hate flames forevermore.Quoth the raven: Forevermore.
Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...You mean a retread like the Battle of Dry Hoth?
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
I imagine this has been discussed to death but... I really wish they went with a "Old EU is still canon as long as it doesn't conflict with new stuff" instead of just throwing it all out.Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
While I enjoyed TFA, it was almost a carbon-copy of A New Hope. I was ok with it because it felt like a lead-in to a new Star-Wars universe and since they'd cut out the EU it was like, ok, so you're acknowledging the previous stuff (from a certain point of view ha ha oh me), ok cool let's go forward from here.
I hope we do not get another retread. Salty Hoth was less than inspired.
I imagine this has been discussed to death but... I really wish they went with a "Old EU is still canon as long as it doesn't conflict with new stuff" instead of just throwing it all out.Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
While I enjoyed TFA, it was almost a carbon-copy of A New Hope. I was ok with it because it felt like a lead-in to a new Star-Wars universe and since they'd cut out the EU it was like, ok, so you're acknowledging the previous stuff (from a certain point of view ha ha oh me), ok cool let's go forward from here.
I hope we do not get another retread. Salty Hoth was less than inspired.
That's not from the novel. That was totally implicit in Episode III. Have you never heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
That's not from the novel. That was totally implicit in Episode III. Have you never heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
I mean that was an implication, but then in that book they were like hey yeah this happened, donezo.
Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...You mean a retread like the Battle of Dry Hoth?
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
While I enjoyed TFA, it was almost a carbon-copy of A New Hope. I was ok with it because it felt like a lead-in to a new Star-Wars universe and since they'd cut out the EU it was like, ok, so you're acknowledging the previous stuff (from a certain point of view ha ha oh me), ok cool let's go forward from here.
oh here we go againSorry, had to put in my two cents there when I see a wall of text.
Personally, the final third of TLJ was the one thing I enjoyed. If you replaced the first two thirds of the movie with something else until you hit the hyperdive sequence, I wouldn't mind seeing that movie again. That would probably require chanign what happened in TFA, but I'd be okay with that too.Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...You mean a retread like the Battle of Dry Hoth?
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
Don't get me wrong Red Salt Hoth was pretty good in general barring a few things here and there. But come on directors, give us a new setpiece battle.oh here we go againSorry, had to put in my two cents there when I see a wall of text.Personally, the final third of TLJ was the one thing I enjoyed. If you replaced the first two thirds of the movie with something else until you hit the hyperdive sequence, I wouldn't mind seeing that movie again. That would probably require chanign what happened in TFA, but I'd be okay with that too.Then handed it back to Abrams? Fuck, prepare for yet another retread...You mean a retread like the Battle of Dry Hoth?
What's worse than a Death Star Planet? A Death Star Star! The released race horses from TLJ returns to wage guerrilla war against it. A new Emperor guy will appear out of nowhere too.
@dunamis: TFA? I think you meant TLJ? And the Darth Plagueis using the force to create life to create Anakin sounds dumb and has a bunch of plot holes that it would have to resolve like, why did Qui Gon have to enhance Anakins midichlorians in the first place, wouldn’t Darth Plagueis have infused the life with it in the first place, and there may be timeline issues, gonna go look up Darth Plagueis real quick though.Pretty sure Qui-gon only measured Anakin's chlorines.midi
@scriver: what even are you talking about? There wasn’t a Death Star planet in TLJ. Nothing stopping them from digging into a planet and creating the giant laser there, but they’d have to use some sort of wormhole tech like what the long-guns in the Shlock Mercenary universe use. Otherwise you get into absurdities like how do you move the planet around and give it angular velocity so that it doesn’t fall into the star.Are you ok? The whole plot of Ep.7 was centred around Starkiller, which was literally a planet converted into Death Star on steroids.
@dunamis: TFA? I think you meant TLJ? And the Darth Plagueis using the force to create life to create Anakin sounds dumb and has a bunch of plot holes that it would have to resolve like, why did Qui Gon have to enhance Anakins midichlorians in the first place, wouldn’t Darth Plagueis have infused the life with it in the first place, and there may be timeline issues, gonna go look up Darth Plagueis real quick though.Pretty sure Qui-gon only measured Anakin's chlorines.midi@scriver: what even are you talking about? There wasn’t a Death Star planet in TLJ. Nothing stopping them from digging into a planet and creating the giant laser there, but they’d have to use some sort of wormhole tech like what the long-guns in the Shlock Mercenary universe use. Otherwise you get into absurdities like how do you move the planet around and give it angular velocity so that it doesn’t fall into the star.Are you ok? The whole plot of Ep.7 was centred around Starkiller, which was literally a planet converted into Death Star on stroids.
@scriver: what even are you talking about? There wasn’t a Death Star planet in TLJ. Nothing stopping them from digging into a planet and creating the giant laser there, but they’d have to use some sort of wormhole tech like what the long-guns in the Shlock Mercenary universe use. Otherwise you get into absurdities like how do you move the planet around and give it angular velocity so that it doesn’t fall into the star.
No, it was hinted in the past and it was recently revealed that it was done by Palpatine directly. Regardless of other Force sheanigans.
You sound... slightly confused? ???
Legends is toast. This was in the new continuity. Which... borrows frequently from Legends, anyway...No, it was hinted in the past and it was recently revealed that it was done by Palpatine directly. Regardless of other Force sheanigans.
You sound... slightly confused? ???
Well, the legends page for Darth Plagueis probably needs to be updated a little, and I’m not familiar with that particular string of lore.
It's like if they brought Wedge Antilles up and were like oh he flies a Y-Wing now and leads Brogue Squadron, this is original content now.
Fortunately Wedge is still canon and mostly his old self thanks to Rebels.It's like if they brought Wedge Antilles up and were like oh he flies a Y-Wing now and leads Brogue Squadron, this is original content now.
Don't encourage them lol, that is exactly something Disney would do.
So, what’s the new line of lore? Probably not that Palpatine secretly had sex with Anakins mother."Official" Vader comic book. He has a Force vision
Dunno, isn't Plagueis' head more bean-shaped?Yeah, that's Palpatine.
Dunno, isn't Plagueis' head more bean-shaped?that's legends tho. New continuity plagueis might beanyone
Dunno, isn't Plagueis' head more bean-shaped?that's legends tho. New continuity plagueis might beanyone
Dunno, isn't Plagueis' head more bean-shaped?that's legends tho. New continuity plagueis might beanyone
Palpatine was involved in the whole force ritual thing in the book, who knows.
It's Star Wars, you can always "A certain point of view" it later.
Dunno, isn't Plagueis' head more bean-shaped?that's legends tho. New continuity plagueis might beanyone
Palpatine was involved in the whole force ritual thing in the book, who knows.
It's Star Wars, you can always "A certain point of view" it later.
Palpatine is clearly the midwife then.
I'm still annoyed by things that are 'canon' in Star Wars that weren't on the silver screen.Such things are not too much of a deterrent to a determined person.
Rebels?
Clone Wars?
I didn't / don't have the cable channels necessary for that nonsense.
Aye aye captain! Avast ye, laddies! Me heartie here knows what he be talking about!I'm still annoyed by things that are 'canon' in Star Wars that weren't on the silver screen.Such things are not too much of a deterrent to a determined person.
Rebels?
Clone Wars?
I didn't / don't have the cable channels necessary for that nonsense.
Avast means stop though.Aye aye captain! Avast ye, laddies! Me heartie here knows what he be talking about!I'm still annoyed by things that are 'canon' in Star Wars that weren't on the silver screen.Such things are not too much of a deterrent to a determined person.
Rebels?
Clone Wars?
I didn't / don't have the cable channels necessary for that nonsense.
yo ho ho and a bucket of spagettiRavioli, Ravioli, seize the propertoli
I mean, folks, look, in the Plagueis book it outright says that Anakin was created by the chlorinated midis as a response to his fuckery with the Force.
Plagueis tries to create life as did the ancient Sith, the Forceinated Chloridian response to this failure is the creation of Anakin, Plagueis and Palpatine learn of his existence after he is born and Plagueis is like, oh shit, this is a result of what we did. It's in the EU book. My point isn't that it's stupid that Palpatine did it, that's fine. It's just 100% not original in any way, but Disney is happy to pretend they invented the concept.
It's like if they brought Wedge Antilles up and were like oh he flies a Y-Wing now and leads Brogue Squadron, this is original content now.
Episodes 2 and 3 are all kinds of terrible obvo.
TBH, The Phantom Menace is baller. [sans Jar-Jar ofc]To be fair, 3 is fine outside Anakin's insane leaps of "logic".
(fight me, you purist nerds)
Episodes 2 and 3 are all kinds of terrible obvo.
Are you saying that because you actually think it's good, or because there's a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber in it?
I still think that the opening space battle and following ship boarding part of episode 3 was pretty brilliant. I might be susceptible to getting distracted by shiny lights though.There were some very good things in the trilogy. Its the dead wood that makes it poor.
Just two spaceswordmonks and their sassy beeping robot, murdering loads and loads of robots. Then they fight the big bad robot and crash land a battleship. It's great.
Are you saying that because you actually think it's good, or because there's a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber in it?
my fav lightsaber duel in the series (2003 Clone Wars not withstanding)
I think you’ll find, sir, Star Wars: Rebellion was the pinnacle of the media.Oh sir! If I may suggest, applying a pineapple to thine rectum might provide thee with solace! The lowest villain in the realm knows that game was an inferior product from a less civilized time
I think you’ll find, sir, Star Wars: Rebellion was the pinnacle of the media.Oh sir! If I may suggest, applying a pineapple to thine rectum might provide thee with solace! The lowest villain in the realm knows that game was an inferior product from a less civilized time
my fav lightsaber duel in the series (2003 Clone Wars not withstanding)
How DARE you imply that Clone Wars 2003 wasn't the objectively best star wars content in every single way! How dare you sir!
Counterpoint: every scene is a bunch of people standing on the exact same concrete square, exchanging wooden dialogue. All the fancy CGI exists only in the mysterious land beyond the square shaped concrete floor. Landing pad on city planet? Concrete square. Magic bubble Atlantis? Concrete square. Somehow even pod racing manages to partially follow this formula. If you include "that flat open grass square in the middle of a forest" every single fight scene follows the formula. Two of the space battles take place on a concrete square, the submarine fight scene as well, and the final space battle both begins and ends on a concrete square.Are you saying that because you actually think it's good, or because there's a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber in it?
Episode One is actually pretty good. I know a lot of people do NOT feel that way, but listen, it's got: two Jedi essentially working free of the council, pod racing, as close to "the old republic" in terms of feel and visual style as we get in any movie, a couple of really good battles, my fav lightsaber duel in the series (2003 Clone Wars not withstanding), and yes a pretty good bad guy with a double-bladed lightsaber (with Palpatine in the background, as he should be).
I know it's got shitty parts, Jar-jar, midichlorians, et al. but it's a much smaller story than Episodes 2 and 3 and it really balances the super-close-in personal moments and the wide-out sweeping action and political maneuvering. War is a theme that is part of ALL Star Wars stories, but in the rest of the prequel trilogy (not gonna talk about sequels here) they focus a bit too much on it.
EDIT: Also to comment on Eps 2 and 3 here as I have read in the past few comments, Kamino and the opening Coruscant section were pretty good in 2, and the opening sequence in 3 is also pretty lit. Ep 3 is actually like... 85% right, but the writing is just SO bad... I didn't think Ole Georgie could get WORSE at dialogue, but he really just drops the ball. The plot is... serviceable in the grand sense--the structure is solid--but Anakin's fall to the dark side is just poorly executed.
Obi Wan also gets a mild lovecraft moment in the 2d animated Clone Wars cartoon, where a seperatist commander looks like he's just a large humanoid alien and then the armor comes off and... well, watch it yourself, I believe its the second short that Obi Wan is in.[/spoiler]His battle agaisnt Durge I believe. And even before the bounty hunter goes full lovecraft, Obi-wan leads a group of clones on speeder bikes against a group of droids on speeder bikes... while everyone has lances. So it's a jousting battle.
Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
The Prequels are what happens when you give a chief editor the director's chair (stilted acting, generic 'they fight' scenes), the Sequels are what happens when you put a director in the chief editor's chair (unnecessary lines (3P0 red arm) and scenes (Casino)), and the original trilogy is directors and chief editor each working both in their proper positions and together.George Lucas isn't an editor tho. He's a businessman. See: the "younglings". Either a director or an editor would have seen how incredibly tone deaf their inclusion was. However, George Lucas has always viewed Star Wars as being marketed primarily at children, so he included child characters for marketing purposes. George Lucas' greatest achievement was financial instead of artistic; which is keeping the merchandising rights to Star Wars.
Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.Yeah, I've never had any issue with anyone involved with the prequels aside from George Lucas. Its clear a bunch of graphic artists poured their hearts out for some of those scenes and it was all held back by the actual plot of the movie. Digression, but I have a similar complaint with Jupiter Ascending, its like a weird camp meme movie but some poor CGI artists did a damn good job on the special effects.
Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
What about SAND?Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
You are right. It is a system we cannot afford to lose.
What about SAND?Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
You are right. It is a system we cannot afford to lose.
It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smoothWhat about SAND?Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
You are right. It is a system we cannot afford to lose.
What ABOUT sand???
It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smoothWhat about SAND?Episode 3 always felt like a terrible film polished and performed to perfection to me. IMO every aspect of it is great except the writing, which is apocalyptically bad.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
You are right. It is a system we cannot afford to lose.
What ABOUT sand???
Is that a fucking sand castle pokemonYou're right, let's go back to the days when we had the pokeball pokemon and the upside-down pokeball pokemon. Not to mention the literal piles of sludge. Or the pokemon that evolved into triplets of themselves!
Is this what pokemon has become
Is that a fucking sand castle pokemonYou're right, let's go back to the days when we had the pokeball pokemon and the upside-down pokeball pokemon. Not to mention the literal piles of sludge. Or the pokemon that evolved into triplets of themselves!
Is this what pokemon has become
Oh, or comically-racist-caricature pokemon, there's multiple of those.Jynx? Tangela? Mr. Mime?
This pokemon derail is fun.
Oh, or comically-racist-caricature pokemon, there's multiple of those.Jynx? Tangela? Mr. Mime?
This pokemon derail is fun.
What bothers me is stuff like the Magikarp/Dragonite vs. Dratini/Dragonair/Gyarados weirdness... And Togepi. Togepi can eat a bag of egg dicks.
Never got into any gens beyond 1st, so it's still just 151 pokes for me. I don't care about your Dead-Child-O-Lantern or however many increasingly edgelord eeveelutions get added.
Of all the things you just said that makes no sense, this makes the most non-sense. Eeveelutions hit their edgiest with Umbreon (which isn't saying much) and have only gotten less edgy since then. Just look up Sylveon sometime.Oh, or comically-racist-caricature pokemon, there's multiple of those.Jynx? Tangela? Mr. Mime?
This pokemon derail is fun.
What bothers me is stuff like the Magikarp/Dragonite vs. Dratini/Dragonair/Gyarados weirdness... And Togepi. Togepi can eat a bag of egg dicks.
Never got into any gens beyond 1st, so it's still just 151 pokes for me. I don't care about your Dead-Child-O-Lantern or however many increasingly edgelord eeveelutions get added.
Like, outside of Padme being all spunky and cute and kicking butt, 2 was a complete waste, but somehow Anakin didn't reach peak cringe until part way through 3, which is just painful to realize.Seriously? "I hate sand" wasn't the apex of
Like, outside of Padme being all spunky and cute and kicking butt, 2 was a complete waste, but somehow Anakin didn't reach peak cringe until part way through 3, which is just painful to realize.Seriously? "I hate sand" wasn't the apex of Anaking cringe for you?
I meanSome cut scenes also would've helped, like Anakin outright murdering another child in Ep1.
sand IS awful
Episode 2 is pretty weird. My most recent watching was probably improved by watching with a die-hard fan who pointed out a lot of plot points which the movie... more references than shows. The political intrigue which follows from the first movie and builds up to the third movie.
The movie fails to deliver it properly, and should be judged for that. Much like Boba Fett in 4-6: He's narratively crucial, basically the reason the Empire is able to track the Falcon, but in his actual *appearances* just stands around and eventually falls into a big mouth.
Movies are supposed to hold the audience's hand to some extent, or at least eventually a clear explanation which reveals the earlier mystery points. The Prequels technically foreshadow Anakin's fall, but it's usually... kinda like dogwhistles. Signals that most people won't pick up on, unless you already *way* understand the lore. So to a normal viewer, it looks like he goes straight from "I had a bad dream" to "Kill all the younglings" to "Oh no I'm evil".
I don't even remember what Anakin did in Episode II other than get his hand cut off. At least I think that was in Episode II.It was.
The other Clone Wars also has a pretty decent Anakin.Quoted for truth. I'm pretty sure I've talked about that before, but the Clone Wars series was *exactly* the content which the Prequels needed between dramatic moments (and... filler hijinks).
I've never watched that one, no doubt partially due to a distaste for 3D animation. Like, gross.
snipHey now, you take the Jar Jar stuff back. He's actually pretty damn good in the series. Trolls a lot, too.
snipHey now, you take the Jar Jar stuff back. He's actually pretty damn good in the series. Trolls a lot, too.
snipHey now, you take the Jar Jar stuff back. He's actually pretty damn good in the series. Trolls a lot, too.
I will admit he's more useful than in the movies. Still looks atrocious in the style.
I enjoyed the Clone Wars cartoon but at some point I had to stop watching it because I knew the end and it made it really hard to care about anything. What's really frustrating to me about the Clone Wars story as a whole is that the ending has almost nothing to do with the war or the actions of the characters. The droids don't matter because they're soulless*, the clones aren't soulless but IIRC because of genetic engineering they're basically predestined to die young and childless**, so within a decade or two there will be no evidence that they ever existed. The overarching plot of the prequels seems to be that Palpatine set himself up to be in charge of both sides so that whichever one wins, he ends up ruling the galaxy. We know nearly all the Jedi die. Its like... it doesn't matter who lives or dies, it doesn't matter who wins. Its such a shame because the show is well made but the inevitable ending sapped away all my enthusiasm.I've never watched that one, no doubt partially due to a distaste for 3D animation. Like, gross.
Main highlights: Padme does more stuff to try and stall the inevitable rise of the Empire and broker peace with the CIS. Anakin gets an actual gradual decline from hotheaded hero to being pretty ruthless. Obi-Wan is a sarcastic quiplord with a more fleshed out personality and a tragic character arc. Darth Maul comes back and is pretty cool though rather OTT at times. Sadistic Palpatine comes out to play a few times. The Confederacy is fleshed out so it's not entirely maniacal idiots, though it is still run largely by maniacal idiots. The conflict within the Republic about the war is explored a bit, as well as anti-Jedi sentiment. Clones with actual distinct personalities and emotional moments. Star Wars Vietnam was a thing.
C3-P0 gets tortured. :D
Bad stuff: Jar Jar is still in it, and he looks even more terrible than normal. Droid humour usually falls flat. Lots of jumping the shark moments. Names are often very silly, but hey, that's Star Wars for you. It's rare for a battle to hold tension unless it involves one of the few characters you know can actually die before the Empire rises, which basically means clones and non-movie Jedi. Grievous is horribly incompetent compared to most depictions, including the movie version.
The entire first season. :(
I dont remember aything about Jango being infertile
I'm actually not sure how I feel about "The sound at the end".
He's dead. Like, super dead. The stories in the EU where he returns via any method whatsoever are considered to be... well, sort of terrible. Like the Star Trek Insurrection of the EU. Don't get me wrong he's basically my favorite, but I feel like this could be very easily mishandled, or just a ploy to increase FAN SERVICE REVENUE RATING.
Also at what point do we start talking openly about it XD
I'm actually not sure how I feel about "The sound at the end".
He's dead. Like, super dead. The stories in the EU where he returns via any method whatsoever are considered to be... well, sort of terrible. Like the Star Trek Insurrection of the EU. Don't get me wrong he's basically my favorite, but I feel like this could be very easily mishandled, or just a ploy to increase FAN SERVICE REVENUE RATING.
Also at what point do we start talking openly about it XDSpoiler: I dunno about talking about it openly, but... (click to show/hide)
EDIT: To be clear, the teaser has the following things tha I find (hilariously?) awesome.Spoiler: Actual spoilers (click to show/hide)
This trailer definitely has my attention, but I also agree with Dunamisdeos' earlier assertion that this could very easily be mishandled.I'm glad they are calling it the end. Even if the movies were perfect in every way, there's only so far you can take one particular story. Star Wars is a big universe, and having everything be about Skywalker is a waste.
I'm also kind of surprised that they're explicitly labeling this as the end of the saga. I know they'll probably continue to make side story movies afterward, but I'm surprised they weren't leaving themselves open to the possibility of Episodes 10-12.
Before I get negative on it though, Lando is back, and Billy Dee is playing him. Woop woop!!!
He already did. A (canonical) SW comic unveiled that it was him that got Vader's mother pregnant in the first place.
And yeah, Sidious was an ambitious little cunt, and he did say that he learned everything Plagueis had to teach... Could very well be that he decided to try his own hand at immaculate conception.
I would hesitate to want the people who have done this trilogy to do anything more with Star Wars, abysmally handled as it has been.Spoiler: on a more trailer-centric note (click to show/hide)
I'm on the fence about seeing it in theaters or seeing it on Netflix.
I'm on the fence about seeing it in theaters or seeing it on Netflix.
You forget that a couple months before then Disney is going to release their own streaming service, it will probably never get released on Netflix since that'd cut into the oh-so-important profits of Disney.
Wait a minute... Yes, yes! Sidious did create Rey! It's all so clear now!
That leaping lightsaber backflip to attack the fighter zooming at her? That's obviously the work of Sheev "Old Man Corkscrew" Palpatine!
D23 not-quite trailer thing - huh.
D23?
Also new Star Wars reviews are coming out of the woodwork...and it’s not looking so good.
Grab the popcorn, because that means INTERNET DRAMA!
Can't say I'm super surprised, but I'll withhold judgment until I actually watch the movie. Supposedly they had to reshoot one of the scenes near the end of the movie because the prescreen audience started laughing at the fight with Palpatine or something. That's not a good indicator.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm going to agree with IcyTea here. The first half was a complete mess, where everything and everyone felt like they were rushing to get on to the next scene as fast as possible. Why does every big movie these days seem to completely suck at editing and pacing?
I'm glad I gave up on Star Wars so that I couldn't be heartbroken by what they're doing to it.Don't ask questions. Just consume product and then get excited for next product.
No feelings at all... none... I swear... no heartbreak here, just last night's burger coming back for revenge... that must be it... no other explanation.
I feel like I should see it for how bad it is... but it will A.) make me irrationally angry, and B.) I don't want to support Disney's shitty choices and weak effort.
I feel like I should see it for how bad it is... but it will A.) make me irrationally angry, and B.) I don't want to support Disney's shitty choices and weak effort.
Finn remains as pointless as ever; he should’ve been a side character in the first movie and then killed off. I was sad to see no Poe-Finn gayness despite this.Legit aww :(
What you're describing is called modular scenes. That is, scenes and plot points that can be added or removed freely to pad or shorten the runtime, as they are not essential to the main plot.
If we compare screenwriting to cooking, modular scenes are salt. Too little and the meat will be bland (a "talking heads" movie) to many tastes, too many or unevenly loaded, it becomes unenjoyable.
And yes, for this one they frontloaded several modular scenes in a row and glued them together in a contrived manner, creating a clumsy first act.
Don't ask questions. Just consume product and then get excited for next product.
Did the male cats have barbed penises?They were a couple of articles (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/jason-derulo-cats-penis-928006/) saying that Jason Derulo was most displeased that they airbrushed out his OwO what's this?
Did the male cats have barbed penises?
Several of them were short haired in the trailers I've seen, could you see their buttholes?
It appeared some of the cats wear fur which resembles their own fur, are those siblings or parents?
Why do the female cats only have 2 breasts, instead of 5 to 10--yes I meant 5, sometimes there will be a single one in the mix--like a normal cat?
I mean, he's cute, not really my type, too much of a babyface, but hey, I paid for the ticket, I expect terrifying spiked penises, yanno?Did the male cats have barbed penises?They were a couple of articles (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/jason-derulo-cats-penis-928006/) saying that Jason Derulo was most displeased that they airbrushed out his OwO what's this?
I mean, he's cute, not really my type, too much of a babyface, but hey, I paid for the ticket, I expect terrifying spiked penises, yanno?Did the male cats have barbed penises?They were a couple of articles (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/jason-derulo-cats-penis-928006/) saying that Jason Derulo was most displeased that they airbrushed out his OwO what's this?
So chewbacca has a spiked...?
The prequels at least have the redeeming feature of fantastic lightsaber duels to go back and re-watch. The sequel trilogy doesn't have a single good lightsaber fight (the throne room battle in 8 falls to pieces once you see a few hideous flaws, and the duel in 9 was just dull).I thought the spoilered was pretty good in its subtext, actually. It shows that Rey doesn't know how to properly control the Force and herself, and is thus at risk of turning to the dark side until the turnabout happens. The action wasn't great, but in carrying meaning it definitely beat the prequels' "they fight" duels.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The prequels at least have the redeeming feature of fantastic lightsaber duels to go back and re-watch. The sequel trilogy doesn't have a single good lightsaber fight (the throne room battle in 8 falls to pieces once you see a few hideous flaws, and the duel in 9 was just dull).I thought the spoilered was pretty good in its subtext, actually. It shows that Rey doesn't know how to properly control the Force and herself, and is thus at risk of turning to the dark side until the turnabout happens. The action wasn't great, but in carrying meaning it definitely beat the prequels' "they fight" duels.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit: actually, did you notice that after that fight,Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What was Finn gonna say to Rey? I have heard JJ Abrams said he was gonna say he was force sensitive, and he obviously is in this movie, but I don't buy that cause why would he be cagey about that?
I thought Rey and Kylo's thing was a reference to Kreia and Exile's relationship in KOTOR 2, but I suppose in hindsight that's giving this movie far, far too much credit, even if it were a good movie to begin with. They failed to fill even the tiniest of plot holes, how would they be clever enough to reference a 15-year-old game that hardly anybody liked?Strike thy tongue from thy mouth, blasphemer!
I thought Rey and Kylo's thing was a reference to Kreia and Exile's relationship in KOTOR 2, but I suppose in hindsight that's giving this movie far, far too much credit, even if it were a good movie to begin with. They failed to fill even the tiniest of plot holes, how would they be clever enough to reference a 15-year-old game that hardly anybody liked?Strike thy tongue from thy mouth, blasphemer!
Hey, I loved KOTOR 2, but my understanding is that it didn't sell well and not a lot of people remember it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hey, I loved KOTOR 2, but my understanding is that it didn't sell well and not a lot of people remember it.
It can't go anywhere new or interesting, even the best of the EU stuff is just remixing ideas from the OT. It's a zombie franchise, just endlessly going through the motions. I kind of hate it, honestly.
It can't go anywhere new or interesting, even the best of the EU stuff is just remixing ideas from the OT. It's a zombie franchise, just endlessly going through the motions. I kind of hate it, honestly.
One example of the OT stuff having paper-thin veneer papering over the lack of believable world-building is the clever "Evil McEvilface" type naming scheme for the Sith that runs out of options after exactly two examples. Darth (in)Vader then Darth (in)Sidious, but after exactly those two examples they ran out of ominious sounding "in" words.
The first order is another good example of the complete void of creativity that Star Wars is. The empire is defeated and the republic is restored. A new imperial remnant is trying to restore the old order. They have an interstellar superweapon and giant spaceships and the people fighting them are the "resistance." Why? Why is the republic still "resisting?" They're the status quo now! This should've been a reversal of the old formula, where the first order is small and weak, maybe one of many imperial remnant organizations that the republic is slowly taking out with their superior forces, and maybe they pull some clever coup (clever meaning not an insterstellar superweapon to just automatically win) to put the republic on the defensive.Now that you mention it: the EU started like that, before it got silly (which
Finn as the Jedi to stand against the First Order after all the horrors he witnessed and after growing out of his fear, and having Rey grow from someone wanting to stay on a rough planet waiting and in relative safety into an gambling explorer who's familiar with the shadier side of the law.Both were impossible because Force is female, duh.
2) Based on how the introduction scenes went, Rey seems more fitting to be the successor of Han Solo
I don't like Palpatine having a lightsaber. He didn't have one in the OT and he obviously thinks little of them, he calls it a "jedi weapon." Darth Vader has a lightsaber cause he's a fallen jedi, but then they made every sith just an evil jedi with a red lightsaber.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh yeah, I remember when forrest whitaker decided he was done running and died for no reason. He wasn't injured was he? He wasn't slowing them down. He was just like "whatever, I'm gonna die now cause that's what happens in war movies"
I kinda dug that dude who was a vague force priest.
Wait, that was Donnie Yen, as in Ip Man? That's awesome! I didn't know he acted in American stuff.
Shamelessly stolen from twitter:
The Last Jedi: Maybe she's born with it?
The Rise of Skywalker: Maybe it's Palpatine?
Episodes 10 to 12 will be about who palp banged to get rey.
Shamelessly stolen from twitter:
The Last Jedi: Maybe she's born with it?
The Rise of Skywalker: Maybe it's Palpatine?
And, clearly, equally unoriginal parents.
Who also decided that exile and a life of grueling hardship was better than corrective surgery.
One really has to wonder how ideas like that make it past enough people that they're not only approved but approved for money to be spent on them.A sequence, I can only assume, of people going "this is stupid, I should reject this...but wait, it's got this far, I wonder how far it would go if I said 'sure'?"
Didn't the totally-doesn't-exist-anymore-because-EU-and-Disnexit-but-totally-might-reexist-as-an-entirely-original-idea Gray Jedi historically use yellow sabers? I remember there being plenty of fan theories about our heroine putting the Rey inVery unique conflict... except for Anakin and Luke, and if you press me, Kylo and Ezra, before her?GrayGrey Jedi, considering her very unique conflict between the two sides of the force and being drawn towards a middle ground that no one else has done before.
Still doesn't explain where the fuck it came from though.
Still doesn't explain where the fuck it came from though.
Why can lightsabers be blocked by mere metal in books and games, but never ever in the films?
The Jedi books aren't toast, Rey has them. You see them in a drawer at the end of TLJ and she reads them in RoS.How do you know these were Jedi books and not some random Gungan smut, though?
"The Lusty Gungan Maid Vol. III"The Jedi books aren't toast, Rey has them. You see them in a drawer at the end of TLJ and she reads them in RoS.How do you know these were Jedi books and not some random Gungan smut, though?
Why can lightsabers be blocked by mere metal in books and games, but never ever in the films?
Lucas forgot this himself on occasion, but Vader's armor and Grevious's bodyguards' weapons are both shown blocking lightsabers in the movies.
I subscribe to using the force to stop them too. It fits with what he was doing (he takes han's blaster with the force afterwards), he does it again in rogue one, and it fits well with the global theme of Force users looking down on blasters -not so much about a pacifist ethos as about how using them near them is pointless because they have so many ways to address the problem (precognition + reflexes, lightsaber or even force deflection if they are good enough),
using them near them is pointless because they have so many ways to address the problem (precognition + reflexes, lightsaber or even force deflection if they are good enough),Tell that to all those Jedi during Order 66.
Btw in my headcannon he's totally untrained-but-sensitive. Hence the good and bad feelings.
using them near them is pointless because they have so many ways to address the problem (precognition + reflexes, lightsaber or even force deflection if they are good enough),Tell that to all those Jedi during Order 66.
using them near them is pointless because they have so many ways to address the problem (precognition + reflexes, lightsaber or even force deflection if they are good enough),Tell that to all those Jedi during Order 66.
It's literal plot armor. When you can't keep up with the internal consistency of Star Trek (which is not a high bar to clear), just say a space wizard did it.
No negative emotions tied to following orders? But... Didn't Clone Wars give the clones personality? And have some of them feel really bad about 66?
I suppose a direct contradiction makes as much sense as anything else in space-bibleland
Jedi precog generally gets overstated anyway, it's enough to survive a stand up fight against a few assailants at a time in favourable conditions and see basic ideas of short term danger or veeery vague long term stuff. It is not enough to magically dodge or deflect masses of blaster fire for any real length of time or predict future events down to the day.
Also Mace fighting an entire army of heavy combat droids, while disarmed, in the open, in clone wars 2006. :vI absolutely love that scene.
That scene is way more anime than starwars usually gets and I love it.
Yeah it's basically just a series of Deus Ex Machina events conjoined by tangential non sequitur scenes.
I enjoyed it regardless, much more than Last Jedi. I even laughed outright at a couple scenes.
Yeah it's basically just a series of Deus Ex Machina events conjoined by tangential non sequitur scenes.
I enjoyed it regardless, much more than Last Jedi. I even laughed outright at a couple scenes.
That's not quite true. It's also about pissing on the original movies and whatever the previous one was.
Yea, its an awful movie, just mildly enjoyable regardless!Star Wars is a metaphor for life.
Lucy Liu? I... Honestly, I've never really seen her in anything where I was particularly impressed with her acting chops. Pretty, definitely, but not my first pick for "gooder at actoring". Maybe I just missed whatever it was where she actually has, y'know... Facial expressions.
Instead of Rey developing close connections with Luke, Han and Leia, while basically Poe and Finn never develop a close relationship with any of them, maybe it would have made more sense if each of the three new characters developed a mentor bond with one of the old characters. For example, Han could have met Poe, Luke trained Rey and Leia been like the mother he never knew to Finn. Or something along those lines. It might have meant they got more character development. However they'd need to come up with some reason for Finn to be hanging around. He's just absolutely useless. Poe's not much better either.
I really like this idea, and a simple way to make Finn actually useful would just be to have the other cast members not be as good at shooting things. Like, literally, he's an ex-stormtrooper, how hard would it be to make him the best shooter/infantryman in general in the group? Or maybe he's got some medical skill or whatever from his time as a trooper, or they come up with some actually reasonable reason to have them infiltrating a F.O. base in which case he'd suddenly become REALLY useful (if they ditch the "I was the janitor" joke line, anyway).
Was reading some stuff on TheMarySue, who hate the recent Star Wars and love The Last Jedi (in fact, loving the last movie was mandatory according to them).
A lot of their grievances revolve around the sidelining of Rose Tico in the latest movie, and they were talking about all the things she represents: race, gender, progressive politics, and saying she was the best thing in The Last Jedi, and claiming that sidelining her was Abrams throwing a bone to the Neo-Nazis basically.
It occurred to me that nowhere in the defense of Rose Tico did they really talk about her having delivered a great performance or having a scintillating on screen persona. I found her just plain boring and wooden and not a very good actress. I mean, the most stand out bit is the bit where she kisses Finn and it's pretty much the lamest kiss in screen history. This is probably why JJ sidelined here: he has an unfavorable view of the actor's ability. If he thought he could do anything with her he would have worked something out.
Maybe she'd be good in some drama film set in the present day but if you picture pretty much anyone else playing that same character you'd just imagine it being cooler, even if the same lines were delivered. Imagine if Lucy Liu was Rose Tico instead. So, bullshit on it being about her being female or asian, there are even other female asian actors who the fans would totally lap it up if they'd be cast instead of whats-her-face.
I realized today how surprised I am that somehow, George Lucas isn't the Brian Herbert of the Star Wars.
I realized today how surprised I am that somehow, George Lucas isn't the Brian Herbert of the Star Wars.
Well he's the Frank Herbert of Star Wars, so.
Don't worry, I'm sure 10 thru 12 will have some newcomers! Perhaps an empire of soldiers in white armor, with a Sith leader with a mask and deep voice, that has a planet-destroying weapon, and is backed by a scarred old man in a robe. Then the Contras or the Insurgency or the Counterculture or something will form a scrappy band of unlikely heroes to take them on.
Ain't Knives Out, by Rian Johnson, considered to be a pretty good movie?Don't worry, I'm sure 10 thru 12 will have some newcomers! Perhaps an empire of soldiers in white armor, with a Sith leader with a mask and deep voice, that has a planet-destroying weapon, and is backed by a scarred old man in a robe. Then the Contras or the Insurgency or the Counterculture or something will form a scrappy band of unlikely heroes to take them on.
As long as Rian Johnson doesn't get to direct it. He is... a woeful incompetent in terms of creating anything that doesn't "break the rules".
Does that not break his own rule of woeful incompetence?Ain't Knives Out, by Rian Johnson, considered to be a pretty good movie?Don't worry, I'm sure 10 thru 12 will have some newcomers! Perhaps an empire of soldiers in white armor, with a Sith leader with a mask and deep voice, that has a planet-destroying weapon, and is backed by a scarred old man in a robe. Then the Contras or the Insurgency or the Counterculture or something will form a scrappy band of unlikely heroes to take them on.
As long as Rian Johnson doesn't get to direct it. He is... a woeful incompetent in terms of creating anything that doesn't "break the rules".
The decision to make him director in the first place, regardless of my opinion of him, is kind of weird considering his lack of experience (especially with the kind of sci-fi [or science fantasy if you prefer] that is Star Wars). I don't actually disagree with him wanting to do something different with the universe--the body of work that is the films themselves before the new trilogy is pretty cut and dry. HOWEVER. The execution is laughably bad, and while Disney made a decision to axe most of the EU, the fact there are extant blueprints of Star Wars stories done RIGHT and that are different from the Lucas' approach out there in the world that WEREN'T TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF is just bad research/design/whatever. People have written books/designed games/animated cartoons about Star Wars that do something different and are a legitimate part of the "Star Wars Fan Canon"tm.
Edit: (https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/62c38062d6fc6166197f021bc9453632328b757d7cac685931e17773e5717a2b.png)This... Makes that one interview even funnier.
MFer just said Sheev.
MFer just said Sheev.
What does this mean?
I think Triclops might be worse than that, but it's a bit iffy.
At least that is no longer canon.
Oh don't worry, Palpatine has had a first name for a LONG time.
And it's been "Sheev" the entire time.
Yah, exactly
My standard for Star Wars names is firmly "Is it worse than Saváge O'ppress?"
Because that is the stupidest name ever.
Yah, exactly
My standard for Star Wars names is firmly "Is it worse than Saváge O'ppress?"
Because that is the stupidest name ever.
Yah, exactlyI *love* the Clone Wars for giving the Prequels the time they needed to tell an actual story, plus add a lot of solid characters...
My standard for Star Wars names is firmly "Is it worse than Saváge O'ppress?"
Because that is the stupidest name ever.
...Because rayder sounds like raider, or am I missing something about Mance?
Mace Windu = ?? is his mace windy or something?He sprays mace into the wind, which gets into everyone's eyes.
...Because rayder sounds like raider, or am I missing something about Mance?
I honestly can't remember any other characters who *actually* died by falling, in any work.Clayton in Disney's Tarzan (1999). That's the only one I can think of where it was specifically the fall that did the killing and not whatever was down there.
I honestly can't remember any other characters who *actually* died by falling, in any work.Clayton in Disney's Tarzan (1999). That's the only one I can think of where it was specifically the fall that did the killing and not whatever was down there.
Reelya, they're obviously referring to scenes where a character falls down a pit or whatever but we never see them hitting the ground or something else. Just falls down pit and then cut.I honestly can't remember any other characters who *actually* died by falling, in any work.Clayton in Disney's Tarzan (1999). That's the only one I can think of where it was specifically the fall that did the killing and not whatever was down there.
Really obvious one here: Die Hard. Another one comes to mind, the original (UK) House of Cards.
Falling deaths are more common than you're making out, unless you mean hitting "the ground" as "whatever was down there" doesn't count as falling being the cause of death.
We've all probably seen more of those deaths than we recall. Consider this scene: person falls off building, hits roof of car, denting that and shattering the glass: car alarm blaring as camera pans over the wreckage, making it clear that they're dead. Don't tell me you haven't seen this shot, probably over and over in movies.
There's a watchmojo top 10 video about movie falling deaths, but I hate that content mill Watchmojo and you should too.
Reelya, they're obviously referring to scenes where a character falls down a pit or whatever but we never see them hitting the ground or something else. Just falls down pit and then cut.I honestly can't remember any other characters who *actually* died by falling, in any work.Clayton in Disney's Tarzan (1999). That's the only one I can think of where it was specifically the fall that did the killing and not whatever was down there.
Really obvious one here: Die Hard. Another one comes to mind, the original (UK) House of Cards.
Falling deaths are more common than you're making out, unless you mean hitting "the ground" as "whatever was down there" doesn't count as falling being the cause of death.
We've all probably seen more of those deaths than we recall. Consider this scene: person falls off building, hits roof of car, denting that and shattering the glass: car alarm blaring as camera pans over the wreckage, making it clear that they're dead. Don't tell me you haven't seen this shot, probably over and over in movies.
There's a watchmojo top 10 video about movie falling deaths, but I hate that content mill Watchmojo and you should too.
I honestly can't remember any other characters who *actually* died by falling, in any work.Clayton in Disney's Tarzan (1999). That's the only one I can think of where it was specifically the fall that did the killing and not whatever was down there.
Just finished it. The krayt dragon fanservice was *air kiss of perfection*.
Spoiler: Spoilers (click to show/hide)
Yeah, Holdo really ruins the tech. An X-Wing has a goddamn hyperdrive, so why aren't they launching hyperdrive torpedos all the time?
It's especially stupid when you consider the weapon they have at the start of that movie: space bombs. How does space bombs even work? There's no up and down in space. Person releases the space bombs and they fall out. Anyone else notice a problem here. They have gravity-driven space bombs but no missiles.
Also, Jedi Books, paper ones bound with leather. Rian Johnson just doesn't get it.
It's the scene where Poe is taunting the imperials ("first order").
It's also the bit where Rose's sister gets it. She's the space bomb head honcho.
I just had a conversation with my brother about the obvious fact that the Empire is species-ist.
Somehow it got to the point that I screamed for the first time in over a year, just, absolutely screaming at full volume into my laptop. Since my housemates are away.
It's fine. We uh, talked it out.
Damn it felt good, though.
Well to summarize,
I agree with your summary except that Rose Tico doesn't seem like a particularly Japanese sounding name to me but I'm no expert. I just played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and I would say it would fit HK maybe? I learned English names are somewhat common in HK accompanying a Chinese (Cantonese? Unsure what is appropriate distinction) family name, though Tico doesn't jump out to me as any suggestion towards any ethnicity in particular; I would guess Finnish or a latin root language if I absolutely had to. Wouldn't make sense for the Kamikaze analogue but I feel that aspect might have been reading too much into it. The rest though I agree with you sounds poorly visualized and nonsensical.
It makes sense if it was added so he could go to Dagobah but still pretty well explained in the lore. I can't remember if Z-95 Headhunters had hyperdrive but that was Intek's predecessor the X-Wing irc. I think the Rebel Alliance/New Republic even put a hyperdrive on the A-Wing and that was their budget starfighter up until maybe the Z-wing which was fairly late in the EU, around the time of the yuuzhon Vong.
This is a lot of energy spent on something as minor as the bomb thing. Nit-Picking (and Re-nit-picking!).The thinking energy was minimal (just too obviously follows from Known Facts™) but then I had to coalesce it into sufficient words to tie up the package so that it arrived in other minds without too much loss of supporting evidence. ;)
This is a lot of energy spent on something as minor as the bomb thing. Nit-Picking (and Re-nit-picking!).The thinking energy was minimal (just too obviously follows from Known Facts™) but then I had to coalesce it into sufficient words to tie up the package so that it arrived in other minds without too much loss of supporting evidence. ;)
I just had a conversation with my brother about the obvious fact that the Empire is species-ist.Okay but seriously - his argument was that the Empire only recruits humans, and only of the exact correct height and shape, so they can mass-produce one identical model of stormtrooper armor.
That is indeed a nonsensical argument, though I could see an argument that they're more like oppressive imperialist/"keep all other species third class citizens" kind of imperialists rather than the "exterminate all other species" kind of imperialist.Oh for sure. I even kinda headcanon that many stormtroopers are nonhuman, yet the officers are all human as we see in the movies. Even in the EU, which he loves to cite, alien officers are rare exceptions and subject to a lot of bias. How the heck does he love Thrawn so much yet come away with the idea that the Empire is egalitarian, ugh. (Starting to think he was just screwing with me)
There's really no logistical reason for the Empire to only use humans in its military, agreed. The explanation that I've heard was that it was just easier and cheaper to film everything that way in a New Hope, so they stuck with it and later on came up with the emperor being speciest as an explanation.The Empire does seem to overtax the less-human border worlds and use them as an excuse for their war machine, I think.
It kind of works, even if it really doesn't make a ton of sense for Palpatine to make the empire so speciest. That doesn't make the Empire stronger or give him more power, though maybe having hatred for non humans gives him something to channel for the dark side. The empire doesn't seem to really ham up internal division and paint aliens as some "other" to give its citizens a designated target, since the Rebellion already fills that role anyway, and aliens are definitely citizens of the Empire.
That is indeed a nonsensical argument, though I could see an argument that they're more like oppressive imperialist/"keep all other species third class citizens" kind of imperialists rather than the "exterminate all other species" kind of imperialist.Oh for sure. I even kinda headcanon that many stormtroopers are nonhuman, yet the officers are all human as we see in the movies. Even in the EU, which he loves to cite, alien officers are rare exceptions and subject to a lot of bias. How the heck does he love Thrawn so much yet come away with the idea that the Empire is egalitarian, ugh. (Starting to think he was just screwing with me)
Maybe it's just plastic or whatever's absolutely cheapest for the sake of them all looking uniform. When a plasma bolt strikes it, it just shatters and sends superheated shrapnel into the trooper's body. The empire knows this and uses it anyways, for aforementioned reasons of everybody looking uniform.
Yeah in the EU everyone has functionally-immune-to-blaster armor by like.... I dunno, the 5th book chronologically?
In one they get stuck in an active biological waste incinerator and then shot, and they survive that. Also the horse guy (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hohass_Ekwesh) falcon-punches a guy into a wall so hard his neck explodes.
why do people always go on about space bombs like those weren't in pre-disney darling battlefront 2, among other things, not to mention that star wars space fighting physics have literally always been completely wackyBecause new thing bad, old thing good!
TBH the space! battles in battlefront 2 were a neat gimmick but I didn't play them all that much. Seemed like boarding the enemy ship was the most effective yet boring tactic.As someone who speedruns the game because I clearly am made of good decisions, it is considered by the community (tiny as it is) the worst part of the game.
It's neat, but it's even more unfair than the rest of an already unfair game.
why do people always go on about space bombs like those weren't in pre-disney darling battlefront 2, among other things, not to mention that star wars space fighting physics have literally always been completely wacky
About space bombs: the "bombs" from the tie bombers (and other faction equivalents in Battlefront) are proton torpedos, which move slowly to penetrate shields (thats a thing in Star Wars, move slow enough and you can get through *most* but not all shields). You can even see in the asteroids scene in A New Hope that they travel in a linear fashion like they are "launched" or self-propelled.
Also would like to point out the sonic bomb in space from Episode II (space battle between Jango and Obi-Wan). Makes even less sense than a space bomb going "down", yet it was really cool.
The scene is just great. There's no music in it either, it's just the sound of the guns and bombs.Also would like to point out the sonic bomb in space from Episode II (space battle between Jango and Obi-Wan). Makes even less sense than a space bomb going "down", yet it was really cool.
Best thing about the movie by far. :P
bomb goes THOOOOOOOOOOOM
Also would like to point out the sonic bomb in space from Episode II (space battle between Jango and Obi-Wan). Makes even less sense than a space bomb going "down", yet it was really cool.
Best thing about the movie by far. :P
bomb goes THOOOOOOOOOOOM
Y'know the bombs can easily be explained away by falling into the artificial gravity fields of the ships they're being fired at, tho I'm not sure the exact mechanics of how their artificial gravity systems were ever technobabbled away/me waves hand
Y'know the bombs can easily be explained away by falling into the artificial gravity fields of the ships they're being fired at, tho I'm not sure the exact mechanics of how their artificial gravity systems were ever technobabbled away
The Sith in the very early EU were an actual species who were red skinned and had tentacles around their mouth.
his thing was standing in the background in camoflauge and then walking out, making the audience realize there was a person there the whole time.Reminds me a lot of Patrick (LL Cool J) in Toys (Robin Williams, early '90s). Or whatever Sherlock Holmes it was in whichever pseudo-Sherlock film it was in, more recently.
Spoiler: My opinion on the matter with offtopic Star Trek and Star Wars as example (click to show/hide)
and because otherwise I would have no explicable starting point for my disjointed rambling....and mine! ;)
Eh, Disney's problem isn't "going woke"; you could take all that stuff out of the movies and they'd still be bad. Disney's (and others') problem is the stories just aren't that good.Yea. Lots of the new stuff just kinda... Whiffs. They exist. Truly the most movie of all time. Definitely are films
Which, in fairness, that's not a new stuff thing. Lots of movies all throughout movie history just kinda' wiffed. It's remarkable how much was so mediocre all record of it's been lost because it wasn't even bad enough to preserve to boggle at. Just forgotten outside of second or third party reference because no one could be arsed to care about it, positive or negative.The big difference is media consolidation
An event for the business I work at once had a speaker, who asked the crowd: "Why are we in this business?"Funnily enough you also see this in criminals-turned-businessmen. Stuff like south american drug cartels turning to avocados or italian mafia turning to mozarella because it makes more money than drugs
Got a bunch of answers about giving value to clients and whatnot, and said "No, we are in this business to make money, and decided this is the best way we can do so. If it was more profitable to move cow dung, you'd be handed your shovel tomorrow."
That's basically the attitude of most businessmen.
Yeah consolidation hurts - entertainment/art to make money, is different from making money to support making entertainment/art.Yeah. You can definitely see how it's hurt mass media the fewer and fewer publishers are, since a single CEO can just merk an entire broad industry. You'll still get indie movies and indie games, but the "mass" part of mass media suffers. It is noticeable how in movies, games, TV shows, original releases used to be the norm but are now the exception in a sea of remakes and sequels
Also I think the new leadership at Disney has indeed lost Walt's vision - his goal was to put some "magic" in people's lives, and wow look you can make some money doing that. But I think his goal was to give people that magic, not just make as much money as possible.
Disney's not alone these days... so many companies have lost their original vision, and instead are just trying to make money. It shows.
An event for the business I work at once had a speaker, who asked the crowd: "Why are we in this business?"Funnily enough you also see this in criminals-turned-businessmen. Stuff like south american drug cartels turning to avocados or italian mafia turning to mozarella because it makes more money than drugs
Got a bunch of answers about giving value to clients and whatnot, and said "No, we are in this business to make money, and decided this is the best way we can do so. If it was more profitable to move cow dung, you'd be handed your shovel tomorrow."
That's basically the attitude of most businessmen.
Eh, Disney's problem isn't "going woke"; you could take all that stuff out of the movies and they'd still be bad. Disney's (and others') problem is the stories just aren't that good.
Somewhere out there there's a stubborn artisan drug dealer refusing to give in to the market economy and go legitI think that's a common theme of a lot of recent crime dramas like McMafia or the Wire. Savvy criminals trying to steer their organisations in the directions of becoming a franchise business whilst hot blooded young ones or status-oriented old ones can't get out of the crime mindset long after they've made their riches