Okay, now list what abilities Mind Shields block.
I just re-reading the role lists. I want to make it clear...Can the FBI Agent be a Dopp?
What do people think of making the Warlock's curse unable to be prevented by a Protector? It would help stop the problem of the dopps having a Protector and therefore perfectly able to kill whomever without worrying about Warlocks or Paranoid War Vets.Agreed. Also, Protector gets a lot more weight in the formula as a Dopp than as a human, right? I mean, a Doppelganger Protector never accidentally guards a Paranoid War Vet or someone from the other team.
What do people think of making the Warlock's curse unable to be prevented by a Protector? It would help stop the problem of the dopps having a Protector and therefore perfectly able to kill whomever without worrying about Warlocks or Paranoid War Vets.Agreed. Also, Protector gets a lot more weight in the formula as a Dopp than as a human, right? I mean, a Doppelganger Protector never accidentally guards a Paranoid War Vet or someone from the other team.
| name | type | faction | max | weight | psychic | goal |
| Mind Shield | ability | town | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
| Mind Shield | ability | dopp | 1 | -2 | 1 | |
| Mind Shield | ability | alien | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
| Townsperson | role | town | 100 | 0 | 0 | survive |
| Agent | role | town | 1 | 4 | 0 | find |
| Detective | role | town | 1 | 3 | 0 | find |
| Telepath | role | town | 1 | 3 | 1 | find |
| Protector | role | town | 1 | 4 | 0 | protect |
| Paranoid War Vet | role | town | 1 | 1 | 0 | kill |
| Bodyguard | role | town | 1 | 1 | 0 | protect |
| Mad Scientist | role | town | 1 | 2 | 0 | survive |
| Medium | role | town | 1 | 1 | 1 | survive |
| Ghost | role | town | 1 | 1 | 1 | survive |
| Disciple Of Truth | role | town | 1 | 3 | 1 | find |
| Warlock | role | town | 1 | 2 | 1 | survive |
| Warden | role | town | 1 | 3 | 1 | protect |
| Aggressive Vet | role | town | 1 | 3 | 0 | kill |
| Reporter | role | town | 1 | 2 | 0 | find |
| Doppelganger | role | dopp | 100 | -1 | 0 | kill |
| Agent | role | dopp | 1 | -3 | 0 | find |
| Detective | role | dopp | 1 | -6 | 0 | find |
| Telepath | role | dopp | 1 | -5 | 1 | find |
| Protector | role | dopp | 1 | -6 | 0 | protect |
| Bodyguard | role | dopp | 1 | -4 | 0 | protect |
| Mad Scientist | role | dopp | 1 | -4 | 0 | survive |
| Warden | role | dopp | 1 | -4 | 1 | protect |
| Reporter | role | dopp | 1 | -4 | 0 | find |
| Leader | role | dopp | 1 | -4 | 0 | kill |
| Exterminator | role | alien | 1 | -1 | 0 | kill |
| Agent Seeker | role | alien | 1 | 1 | 0 | find |
| Doppelgagner Hunter | role | alien | 1 | 1 | 0 | find |
| Survivor | role | alien | 1 | 0 | 0 | survive |
| Kook | role | town | 1 | -1 | 0 | survive |
SUGGESTION:
Classify certain kills (i.e. the Curse) as a Morningkill - it occurs before day but after night, meaning Protector and such are no good against it.
Speaking of the Dead Chat...what do people think about the handles? I'm kind of thinking that it's fairly useless, since it'd be very tricky for a dead dopp to do much harm over there. Plus, the two dead dopps this time didn't even bother trying.
Also, I'm not sure if the handles carry over from thread to thread. If they do, that'll make it very hard for me to keep up with finding interesting handles for each person each game.
I dislike this idea. It'll give dead Dopps the ability to learn the Medium's identification, or other things only the dead know.Speaking of the Dead Chat...what do people think about the handles? I'm kind of thinking that it's fairly useless, since it'd be very tricky for a dead dopp to do much harm over there. Plus, the two dead dopps this time didn't even bother trying.
Also, I'm not sure if the handles carry over from thread to thread. If they do, that'll make it very hard for me to keep up with finding interesting handles for each person each game.
If it is going to be hard for Dopps to try and mislead the town, maybe it might be better to just get rid of the regular handles. I also consider having dead Dopps stay on the Dopp channel, so the dead Dopps can still help the live Dopps out.
Second.SUGGESTION:
Classify certain kills (i.e. the Curse) as a Morningkill - it occurs before day but after night, meaning Protector and such are no good against it.
I like that idea!
Could be interesting. Post whatever you come up with over in the rules suggestion thread. Won't be in for this round, of course, but maybe the next.
Killer who is Psychic: This player can kill through one of two methods each night. Creating Heart-Stopping Nightmares will kill any player who is not taking an action that they PMed to Meph that nigh. Inducing Mind-Rending Hallucinations will kill any player who is taking an action that they PMed to Meph. Amnesia victims are weak to Nightmares. This player may be Townie or Dopp, but to get the kill must guess correctly whether their target is going to be active that night.
Killer of Psychics: This player will learn on the first night how many Psychic characters the game contains. He shows up as Human or Alien/Kill/Psychic Slayer, for Race/Goal/Role. His win condition is the death of every psychic character. He can choose two players every night and will be told if at least one of them is psychic. He can execute a standard, non-psionic nightkill, and is only able to nightkill once for every psychic player who exists at the start of the game (meaning he has to trick a lynch of a psychic if he messes up a nightkill). Once he has killed all psychic roles, he impedes no win condition other than the Alien Exterminator's.
I think that Dopps need a little less powers, or less chance of getting them. The town needs at least one more investigative role than the Dopps do, and definitely need a Protector if the Dopps have one. For sure. Psychic Wardens are good, but not as great as you'd like. They can be both beneficial and terrible, depending on their luck.
Also, less powers in general.
That would be a problem, I think. But, no, the Ghost specifically does not have access to the Dead Chat.Oh. Okay then. But, he's still trustable by the Town, regardless. If I were Ghost, I would lynch myself first Night, find all the Power Roles, and win the game. It'd be pretty simple, actually, since you cannot die.
The Ghost having access to both chat, while being unkillable.True. But it's still tough on them. That's why I think he should have a higher score rating.
A Medium-Ghost would be interesting, but maybe overpowered.
@webadict: But what's to stop the dopps from infiltrating his group? He can't die, yeah, but he also can't do anything to find the truth.
You can't kill yourself. A Ghost has no other power role. Meaning you have no killing role. Ergo, you can't kill yourself.He can vote when he's alive. And I'll just be as scummy as possible. It's easy to get yourself lynched. I proved it in the last game: Do something stupid. And then try to make yourself look not stupid. Brilliant combo.
The Ghost will have to try and get someone else to murder him, either the Town or the Mafia. And to get the town to murder him, he has to somehow pose to be scummy enough to get lynched, wasting a lynch. And the Mafia is too wise to randomly kill people.
And the Ghost can't vote.
Right, this should go here:QuoteCould be interesting. Post whatever you come up with over in the rules suggestion thread. Won't be in for this round, of course, but maybe the next.
Killer who is Psychic: This player can kill through one of two methods each night. Creating Heart-Stopping Nightmares will kill any player who is not taking an action that they PMed to Meph that nigh. Inducing Mind-Rending Hallucinations will kill any player who is taking an action that they PMed to Meph. Amnesia victims are weak to Nightmares. This player may be Townie or Dopp, but to get the kill must guess correctly whether their target is going to be active that night.
Killer of Psychics: This player will learn on the first night how many Psychic characters the game contains. He shows up as Human or Alien/Kill/Psychic Slayer, for Race/Goal/Role. His win condition is the death of every psychic character. He can choose two players every night and will be told if at least one of them is psychic. He can execute a standard, non-psionic nightkill, and is only able to nightkill once for every psychic player who exists at the start of the game (meaning he has to trick a lynch of a psychic if he messes up a nightkill). Once he has killed all psychic roles, he impedes no win condition other than the Alien Exterminator's.
Amnesiamancer? I don't think you mentioned that role...
Hmmm. True. Shame, I kind of liked that role.Plus, do you know how much work that would take?
Except, y'know, we're using Quicktopic anyway, right?Only the Dopps and the Dead do.
Then what good is a townie Watcher? He can't find Dopps.Except, y'know, we're using Quicktopic anyway, right?Only the Dopps and the Dead do.
How about, for the telepath, a day ability like:You can't give the Telepath another ability. He can already find all the killing roles. If anything, give it to another character, or an underpowered character.
One (or more) time per day, you can give Meph a message and a name, and that person will receive a "psychic message" which is told to the player, but they aren't told who gave it to them and the watcher can't see who sent it?
How about, for the telepath, a day ability like:You can't give the Telepath another ability. He can already find all the killing roles. If anything, give it to another character, or an underpowered character.
One (or more) time per day, you can give Meph a message and a name, and that person will receive a "psychic message" which is told to the player, but they aren't told who gave it to them and the watcher can't see who sent it?
The Watcher *can* see that the dopps are talking with one another in Dopp Chat during the Day. He won't see any difference between that and PMs, of course, but he can still tell that they're communicating....But that's still:
Watcher: The Watcher is adept at noticing things going on around them, and takes note of what everyone is doing. The Watcher will be told which players are sending messages to other players during the day. However, the Watcher does not know who those messages are sent to or what they contain. This ability does not work at night. [human][dopp]
Okay, well it's still a pretty bad role then. All we know is that somebody is sending messages.Watcher: The Watcher is adept at noticing things going on around them, and takes note of what everyone is doing. The Watcher will be told which players are sending messages to other players during the day. However, the Watcher does not know who those messages are sent to or what they contain. This ability does not work at night. [human][dopp]
It explicitly says that the watcher doesn't know who the messages are sent to, only who's sending them, so the list would be more like:
Chaoticjosh sent a message to someone.
Org sent a message to someone.
Alexhans sent a message to someone.
Inaluct sent a message to someone.
You've got plenty of roles, Meph. Just keep it sweet and simple. All you need to do is keep updating roles and rules, to balance out the game.
Perhaps multiple Exterminator Aliens could exist? Or perhaps encourage cooperation between certain Alien types?Yeah. Third party roles need an upgrade.
For instance; if a Survivor-type Alien picks a Scanning tool, they could seek an ally (perhaps even the Exterminator) and essentially Team Up with them.
If you want to look for new Alien Type ideas, read the synopsis of a few X-Files episodes :P
For the really powerful two-slot items, I had these ideas:
Call to the Hive-mind: You use up the remainder of your power to call the all-knowing hive-mind, who tells you everyone's role.
Disease: You are infected with a hyper-evolved space disease that, while you and other aliens are naturally immune to it's symptoms, will infect anyone that interacts with you, minus psychics, who will die the next night. If said person interacts with another person that night, they pass the germ onto that person, who will die the next night, and so on and so forth.
Plasma Bomb: Once per game, can be chosen in lieu of a nightkill, which will kill the target, and anyone interacting with the target, and anyone interacting with them, and so on. (Much like Pandar's Mafia Strongman, from his first ridiculous mafia)
For the really powerful two-slot items, I had these ideas:
Call to the Hive-mind: You use up the remainder of your power to call the all-knowing hive-mind, who tells you everyone's role.
Disease: You are infected with a hyper-evolved space disease that, while you and other aliens are naturally immune to it's symptoms, will infect anyone that interacts with you, minus psychics, who will die the next night. If said person interacts with another person that night, they pass the germ onto that person, who will die the next night, and so on and so forth.
Plasma Bomb: Once per game, can be chosen in lieu of a nightkill, which will kill the target, and anyone interacting with the target, and anyone interacting with them, and so on. (Much like Pandar's Mafia Strongman, from his first ridiculous mafia)
Disease and Plasma Bomb both show strong influences of the Steroid-Fueled Rampage. :3
Hive Mind is just too much though.
How about you're only given the roles and not the players that have them?For the really powerful two-slot items, I had these ideas:
Call to the Hive-mind: You use up the remainder of your power to call the all-knowing hive-mind, who tells you everyone's role.
Disease: You are infected with a hyper-evolved space disease that, while you and other aliens are naturally immune to it's symptoms, will infect anyone that interacts with you, minus psychics, who will die the next night. If said person interacts with another person that night, they pass the germ onto that person, who will die the next night, and so on and so forth.
Plasma Bomb: Once per game, can be chosen in lieu of a nightkill, which will kill the target, and anyone interacting with the target, and anyone interacting with them, and so on. (Much like Pandar's Mafia Strongman, from his first ridiculous mafia)
Disease and Plasma Bomb both show strong influences of the Steroid-Fueled Rampage. :3
Hive Mind is just too much though.
Yeah, now that I think about it, with that much information, you could pull off some crazy gambits with near-zero-risk.
How about, instead of all players, you're given the identity of 1/2 (rounding down) of the players, of your choice?
You might wanna edit some of that. It's just barely giving away game information.
You could also have a daytime AWV aswell.
No, the person using the bomb is specifically exempt. Otherwise, it effects people who are at that location for some reason. So the person guarding the Exterminator would die even though the Exterminator would not.So, technically, he could use it on himself, knowing full well he can't die but can kill everyone interacting with him?
Man, that would be an epic ending:So... What if this happens?
There are only power roles left. And a dopp, maybe.
They all end up (somehow) in the same place as the exterminator.
The exterminator fires the plasma bomb at himself.
BOOM
Game over, everybody loses!
How about a forensic expert role? This person is able to work out who was at the scene of the murder. Maybe only a limited number of uses per game to stop it from being overpowered.
Man, that would be an epic ending:So... What if this happens?
There are only power roles left. And a dopp, maybe.
They all end up (somehow) in the same place as the exterminator.
The exterminator fires the plasma bomb at himself.
BOOM
Game over, everybody loses!
You bomb A, A targets B, who targets you.
Then, C targets you as well.
Do, A, B, AND C die, or just A and B?
What about the Warlock and PWV? Technically, they don't do anything either that is an active action.
If he wins once he has "analyzed all living players" does he just disappear from the game at that point, ala agent hunter?
So he's some deranged mixture of a roleblocker, protector, and detective?
If he wins once he has "analyzed all living players" does he just disappear from the game at that point, ala agent hunter?
Would he run the risk of triggering defensive roles like the PWV or the mad scientist w/ turrets?
What sort of message would a person targetting a person being analyzed get?
No, I meant, what would a person attacking/inspecting/telepathing a person that's getting probed get?
Would it be something like "Hungry for blood, you sneak into Chaoticjosh's house. You prowl around but find nobody. You wait for several hours, but he never comes back. You go back before the sun rises."?
Well, then he can vote for 3, but only to vote. No talking other than vote. Or he PMs you.
Here is my thought in general on the next round:Seems pretty good to me.
Change or Remove Ghost
Remove Agent Seeker
Add in Alien Operative and Scientist
Add in Child
Thoughts?
I'd agree that the Ghost is extremely powerful, and needs nerfing. I think that limiting the Ghost's ability to appear to one single day, as a power they can use after their Death, which would temporarily remove them from Dead Chat to speak on their behalf would be good. That, or replace them with a role that resurrects immediately on death (Zombie? Poltergeist?), but which doen't fully role-flip, and who could be a Dopple/Alien/Townie. They would then die at the end of the day, or perhaps require a re-lynch (better to use Zombie for that style). Then, after their second death, they would do a True Role-Flip.
What if he targets a Doppleganger Agent?
Actually, it goes:
Doppleganger Hunter
Roleblocker
Protector
Investigator
Nightkiller
Event Order: Looks like there is strong sentiment to have a everything predetermined. Therefore, the order of events is as follows:
Role-blockers
Protectors
Investigators (Includes Dopp Seeker)
Night Kills (The Paranoid War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)
What if the ghost is pro-town if the dopps or a exterminator kill him or pro-dopp and pro-exterminator if the town kills or lynches him or her?But then everyone knows on which team the ghost is.
That looks confusing. What I mean is, what if the ghost joined the opposite team from their killer? Finally gives the town a chance to infiltrate the mafia with a bluff, if they want to try that.
What if the ghost is pro-town if the dopps or a exterminator kill him or pro-dopp and pro-exterminator if the town kills or lynches him or her?
That looks confusing. What I mean is, what if the ghost joined the opposite team from their killer? Finally gives the town a chance to infiltrate the mafia with a bluff, if they want to try that.
Yeah, in many cases, there would be no question as to which side the Ghost is on. 1 kill during the night? Must be pro-town. Lynched? Must be pro-dopp.What if the ghost is pro-town if the dopps or a exterminator kill him or pro-dopp and pro-exterminator if the town kills or lynches him or her?But then everyone knows on which team the ghost is.
That looks confusing. What I mean is, what if the ghost joined the opposite team from their killer? Finally gives the town a chance to infiltrate the mafia with a bluff, if they want to try that.
That looks confusing. What I mean is, what if the ghost joined the opposite team from their killer? Finally gives the town a chance to infiltrate the mafia with a bluff, if they want to try that.
Twisted spirit sounds MIGHTY FINE if you ask me. Not being able to tell means that roleclaiming to him is a liability, not an advantage. Plus, a twisted spirit would have to put up a pretty awesome masquerade to lead the dopps to victory, since he wouldn't know who he was or vice-versa.
One thing I found odd: in the order of priority schema that Meph laid out, the priorities of actions go as follows:
Roleblockers
protectors
investigators (includes dopp seeker)
Nightkills (includes agent seeker)
The problem here is that it creates a logical paradox in one very specific scenario, which is that a dopp protector, abducted by a dopp seeker, is still able to protect, despite not physically being there.
Also, Meph, can you re-elaborate on the difference between an alien operative and scientist?
Child: One of the remaining people in the town is a just a child. People find lynching a child very difficult to do, even if they know the child is a doppelganger. Therefore, the Child takes 1 extra vote to Lynch, and is not lynched on a tie (even including the extra vote requirement). However, the Child's Role is known to everyone at the start of the game. There can only be one Child per game. [human][dopp]If there are equal amounts of townies and mafia at the end of a day and there is a pro-town child, does the game continue?
As an example, if the Child has 3 votes and someone else has 2, the Child is not lynched (the tally counts as 2 v 2 instead). Since that would be a tie, the Child is not lynched and the other person is instead.
Ok, Ghost is unquestionably overpowered. Here are some thoughts I have on how to change the Ghost.
Option 1) Remove the role entirely
Option 2) Add another Ghost role: Twisted Spirit. The Twisted Spirit changes alignment upon death and seeks to help the Doppelgangers win. There will be no way to determine what type of Ghost is in play. Only one Ghost can show up per game.
Option 3) Switch the Ghost's ability. Instead of being able to talk but not Vote, the Ghost will be able to Vote but not post or PM people.
Preferences? Other thoughts?
Another idea would be to prevent the ghost from sending (and possibly receiving) PMs. Thus, the coordination abilities would be significantly hampered by needing to happen in the open, and might be combined with the twisted spirit in interesting ways.
I'm tellin' ya: Get rid of Ghost, DoT, and Exterminator. No Child. No Alien Scientist. No Alien Help Buddy. Everything will be fine that way...
Actually, with the size Paranormal Mafia is growing to, a second mafia might not be such a bad idea. But it would screw with Meph's little selection program.I'm tellin' ya: Get rid of Ghost, DoT, and Exterminator. No Child. No Alien Scientist. No Alien Help Buddy. Everything will be fine that way...
Fix'd.
Also, I think Exterminator might be more viable as a two-Exterminator Team - a mini-mafia, if you will, that trades numbers and access to other power roles for equipments they can choose. They would only be able to do one kill a night, though.
WA does have a point, I wouldn't want this game to be a victim of feature creep.
Why not have a disguised Child, who isn't really a child (more likely a teen). Or we could have that soldier named Child's from The Thing.*Headdesk*
Why not have a disguised Child, who isn't really a child (more likely a teen). Or we could have that soldier named Child's from The Thing.*Headdesk*
How about:Er...
Seductress: Over the night phase the seductress can influence any other player to use their role on someone of the seductress's choice. The seductress will not learn what the targets role is. The seductress's target will know he was targeted by the seductress, and who the seductress made him go for, but not the identity of the seductress. [Town/Dopp]
Seductress is useless. <_<;Not really. There is no easy variant of the Exterminator.
But again, Psychic-Killer role as an easier variant of Exterminator?
Seductress is useless. <_<;Not really. There is no easy variant of the Exterminator.
But again, Psychic-Killer role as an easier variant of Exterminator?
Also, what happens to unused objects? Someone should be able to get them after an Alien dies.
First, why would anyone get them? Second, the Exterminator is already easier than a Serial Killer role. Psychic Killer doesn't even have to wipe everyone out.Seductress is useless. <_<;Not really. There is no easy variant of the Exterminator.
But again, Psychic-Killer role as an easier variant of Exterminator?
Also, what happens to unused objects? Someone should be able to get them after an Alien dies.
The Child is clearly pointless. Let me prove it.I'm confused. Your scenario here could be applied to absolutely anybody, even a vanilla, no-role townie. Admittedly, the child role might attract a certain amount of focus, but not nearly as much as some of the high level players (you, Chaoticjosh, etc.) do.
Hypothesis:
Child is useless.
Knowns:
Child is Known to all.
Child may be Dopp or Town.
Unknown:
Initial allegiance.
Scenario:
First Day, all are told who is the Child.
First Night, determine the allegiance of the Child through various power roles.
Second Day: few possibilities; 1) Child is Dopp. Dopp is lynched. 2) Child is Town. Child is killed at Night. 3) Child is Town. Child is now proven. Game-breaking.
No child. It just screws over the Child or the Dopps. I do believe I'm fairly good at these game-breaking strategies.
That scenario can't be applied to anybody. Because Child is publicly known, everyone targets it.The Child is clearly pointless. Let me prove it.I'm confused. Your scenario here could be applied to absolutely anybody, even a vanilla, no-role townie. Admittedly, the child role might attract a certain amount of focus, but not nearly as much as some of the high level players (you, Chaoticjosh, etc.) do.
Hypothesis:
Child is useless.
Knowns:
Child is Known to all.
Child may be Dopp or Town.
Unknown:
Initial allegiance.
Scenario:
First Day, all are told who is the Child.
First Night, determine the allegiance of the Child through various power roles.
Second Day: few possibilities; 1) Child is Dopp. Dopp is lynched. 2) Child is Town. Child is killed at Night. 3) Child is Town. Child is now proven. Game-breaking.
No child. It just screws over the Child or the Dopps. I do believe I'm fairly good at these game-breaking strategies.
or have him show the protectee who the attacker was before he dies
Doing ALL of those is a bit much....or have him show the protectee who the attacker was before he dies
I like this. The Bodyguard defends against all attacks for the night, kills all attackers, and then tells the protectee who the attackers were (in case they didn't die.)
indeed. i vote protects against all and tells protectee who all the attackers were.Maybe the bodyguard can choose the "areas in which they were trained" and choose either protecting against all, telling who attackers were (useful for if there's a Medium when more than one attacks or if a Protector and Bodyguard stack up defenses), and killing an attacker (probably in the order of Dopp/Exterminator/AWV for whom they'd choose to kill if multiple attacks happened, for the sake of fairness).
The Bodyguard is a name for many roles:
* A role that functions like a normal Doctor.
* A role that functions like a normal Doctor, but dies if the protected player is attacked.
* A role that has a 50% chance of successfully protecting the target and finds out his target's attacker, and a 50% chance that the Bodyguard dies instead.
* A role that kills the attacker of the protected player (also known as Elite Bodyguard).
what's the point?
It's obvious that the attacker is scum...Quote from: mafiawiki BodyguardThe Bodyguard is a name for many roles:
* A role that functions like a normal Doctor.
* A role that functions like a normal Doctor, but dies if the protected player is attacked.
* A role that has a 50% chance of successfully protecting the target and finds out his target's attacker, and a 50% chance that the Bodyguard dies instead.
* A role that kills the attacker of the protected player (also known as Elite Bodyguard).
Does your protectee get to know who attacked? Cause otherwise, you need to hope that there's a medium present. I'd much rather go for one sure-fire scum kill than hope that A) there's a medium B) he can convince the town to lynch the attacker, but only after B) weasling another dopp out of the attacker.Yes, the protectee finds out. :I
How does the silent spectre vote?PM
Correct.How does the silent spectre vote?PM
I dislike the silent specter.
Also, the Disciple of Truth is okay now. It stops obscene town bases.
Also, I've found a "killer" combo with EA and Helper... He he he he...
I somewhat disapprove of the new roles.
Does the bodyguard get to choose which of the three actions he does? or is he assigned them?
I think I agree with Webadict that Silent Specter is bad, unless they had access to Dead Chat as well. Otherwise, they are essentially relegated to lurking, which they can do without a role anyway.It's basically a lame (Or rather, a dumb [har har]) person. Just do an unknown role for a ghost. Also, do we ever find the body of the ghost? And it turns out the killer combo doesn't work. I thought Operative got an item.
I think the dead chat should just be a discussion chat...
Forget the medium... it only helps town too much.
Ok, here is the voting sheet. I've included all current and proposed roles. Feel free to vote Yes or No for each role.
Vote Sheet under spoiler:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you have any questions about a role, check out its description on the First Page. If that doesn't answer your questions, just ask.
Ok, here is the voting sheet. I've included all current and proposed roles. Feel free to vote Yes or No for each role.
Vote Sheet under spoiler:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you have any questions about a role, check out its description on the First Page. If that doesn't answer your questions, just ask.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'll suggest rules to place into future paranormal games, to prevent drawn out games.
-the dopps can only forego two consecutive kills, where on the third night they're forced to choose out of hunger. Kills from mad scientist's assassin bot are not factored into this.
-the game is given a definite end date, determined at the beginning, where, for example, it'll say that the game ends at the end of day 10, where all parties that haven't yet reached their goal lose automatically, with the exception of the survivor alien, and maybe the agent seeking alien.
-no more double lynches at lylo.
How about that? Because I feel that these rule changes are unfair, should be rescinded and that the gaps in the rules should be amended in future games, as opposed to immediately right in the middle of the game.
All I'm saying is that the ability to win by saying "Well, let's just kill them both!" seems kind of cheap. You've gotten it down to a choice of A or B. I think you should actually have to make that choice.
As for the changes for this game, I can see why you're upset. I also imagine that the dopps are equally upset at being forced into a no-win situation. So I tried to change things to give us a nice tense either-side-can-win situation. If the surviving players hate it and all want to be able to double-lynch and end the game that way I'll allow it. But personally I think it's more of a game if you have the uncertainty of trying to figure out who the remaining dopp is and taking a chance with your victory. It's not like I'm handing the dopps an automatic victory, I'm just trying to give them a chance to win so there is an interesting game to play.
The problem with the Ghost last round was that it basically took the game away from everyone. I'm trying to avoid those situations where everyone is sitting around going 'well, gee, obviously we do X and we win.'
I just don't think that's as fun all around, but I'm willing to hear everyone's opinions and I'll change things if that's what everyone really wants.
Dopp medium... heh.
That would mean that the regular medium would know who the dopp medium is, and vice versa. Unless we use those handles again.
Dopp medium... heh.
That would mean that the regular medium would know who the dopp medium is, and vice versa. Unless we use those handles again.
Something like that negates the purpose of a medium, methinks.
how about we scrap the medium,Yes indeed.
I like the change to the sentry gun, and the mind control ray bears a striking resemblance to the situational mind controller from my mafia way back when.
the smc wasn't very successful, but he was never really played to full effect.
Also, the scientist now seems to be a souped-up survivor, and the immunity to nightkills makes it overpowered, I dare say.
Had a couple of thoughts on some roles.
Mad Scientist:
Change to the Sentry Guns: Functions like the paranoid war vet, attacking and killing anyone who comes snooping around the Mad Scientist's house. However, it has limited ammo (it is just a prototype version), and only works for one night. Should the Mad Scientist be attacked, it is the Sentry Gun that is destroyed not the Scientist. Once destroyed, the Sentry gun cannot protect against any further attacks that night.Like the War Vet's ability, the gun can be turned off for a night. This makes the house safe for friendly visitors but leaves the Mad Scientist vulnerable to attack.
That should make the gun much more useful (since no one has ever taken it, I figure it's a bit weak).
New Gadget (For MS and Aliens): Mind Control Ray: Once per game you can choose the target of another player's Night Action. If the player does not get a regular night action, or has a limited use Night Action and did not choose to use it, the ray is wasted. If used on a Doppelganger without a power role, it can only direct their action if they are the one performing the night kill.
----
Changes to the Alien Scientist to make him more likely to actually win:
The Alien Scientist gets 2 tech slots
The Alien Scientist is immune to Night Kills from non-aliens (he spends the night in his space ship studying people).
The Alien Scientist only impedes the victory condition of the Exterminator.
Thoughts?
Had a couple of thoughts on some roles.The Alien Scientist is dumb. That means you have how many nights to study how many people?
Mad Scientist:
Change to the Sentry Guns: Functions like the paranoid war vet, attacking and killing anyone who comes snooping around the Mad Scientist's house. However, it has limited ammo (it is just a prototype version), and only works for one night. Should the Mad Scientist be attacked, it is the Sentry Gun that is destroyed not the Scientist. Once destroyed, the Sentry gun cannot protect against any further attacks that night.Like the War Vet's ability, the gun can be turned off for a night. This makes the house safe for friendly visitors but leaves the Mad Scientist vulnerable to attack.
That should make the gun much more useful (since no one has ever taken it, I figure it's a bit weak).
New Gadget (For MS and Aliens): Mind Control Ray: Once per game you can choose the target of another player's Night Action. If the player does not get a regular night action, or has a limited use Night Action and did not choose to use it, the ray is wasted. If used on a Doppelganger without a power role, it can only direct their action if they are the one performing the night kill.
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Changes to the Alien Scientist to make him more likely to actually win:
The Alien Scientist gets 2 tech slots
The Alien Scientist is immune to Night Kills from non-aliens (he spends the night in his space ship studying people).
The Alien Scientist only impedes the victory condition of the Exterminator.
Thoughts?
On the scientist: I think instead of merely stealing the target up in his ship for the night, he stole them out of the game. They aren't dead, so they can't post on the dead chat, but they also aren't here, so they can't post on the forums, PM, or use the dopp chat anymore. The people the scientist kidnaps can be brought back into the game if the alien scientist dies. Being kidnapped impedes the alien survivor from winning, but it does not impede the alien exterminator, assuming all the other players somehow die. In addition, rather than have to take everyone aboard, maybe it should either be a short list of players or make him kidnap a human, a dopp, and one other alien, or all of them, if you want to make it harder. After stealing the required people away, you should have him instantly leave the game in victory. After leaving, the players on board are gone. They can't even view the dead chat.Stealing one human, one doppelganger, and one alien is incredibly fair. They should be locked away until the Scientist wins or is killed, in which case they are released. If all three are collected, they are removed from the game.
Also, might a recommend an alien role that just wants to kill the other aliens? 1 tech slot, and I think it's fair.
On the scientist: I think instead of merely stealing the target up in his ship for the night, he stole them out of the game. They aren't dead, so they can't post on the dead chat, but they also aren't here, so they can't post on the forums, PM, or use the dopp chat anymore. The people the scientist kidnaps can be brought back into the game if the alien scientist dies. Being kidnapped impedes the alien survivor from winning, but it does not impede the alien exterminator, assuming all the other players somehow die. In addition, rather than have to take everyone aboard, maybe it should either be a short list of players or make him kidnap a human, a dopp, and one other alien, or all of them, if you want to make it harder. After stealing the required people away, you should have him instantly leave the game in victory. After leaving, the players on board are gone. They can't even view the dead chat.Stealing one human, one doppelganger, and one alien is incredibly fair. They should be locked away until the Scientist wins or is killed, in which case they are released. If all three are collected, they are removed from the game.
Also, might a recommend an alien role that just wants to kill the other aliens? 1 tech slot, and I think it's fair.
When the alien abducts a player, they are roleblocked for the night. If the abducted player is one of the species not yet obtained, they are locked away. If it is a repeat, they will be allowed to leave, with some flavor about them being mind-wiped or some such nonsense.
However, certain roles simply can't be roleblocked, such as the paranoid war veteran, who will kill the Scientist. Also, if the Scientist is targeted with a Plasma Bomb, all captured players are also killed.
Does this sound reasonable?
Well, if there are two aliens, the Scientist Alien and some other alien, and the other alien dies, how can the Scientist wins?If he's down to only one doppelganger and he hasn't captured another player, I'm pretty sure he was screwed anyhow.
Further, if the Scientist Alien abudcts the last remaining Doppelganger, will the game continue? If the game does not continue, then the Alien Scientist would lose, as he did not abduct a human and an alien.
... and will kill the player attempting the abduction. ...
Ok, so here is the revised Alien Scientist:
[snip]
Alien Survivor can't win if he gets abducted, right? Can the Exterminator win if he gets abducted but everybody else manages to die anyways? These are corner cases, yes, but I want you to think about them.
By the time Paranormal Round 274 comes around I think this game will be balanced.:D As long as it is fun...
lol, but then we'll have about 700 roles :PBy the time Paranormal Round 274 comes around I think this game will be balanced.:D As long as it is fun...
900?It's over 9000!
Meph.... would you be mad if I call for an MC right from the get go in the next game?
I maintain that the game is breakable if you do so...
what's the current normal-townie-or-common-dopp vs PR rate?
and I take it that since players that are abducted in this fashion are still able to get back into the game (since if the scientist dies, the players are released), a player that is abducted won't have their role and alignment won't be revealed, is that right?
Also, where would he go in the priority schema? At the same time as the dopp seeker or at the same time as a regular nightkill?
I kinda like this, as it also makes it tough for a survivor alien to claim, since if a scientist is around, then he can just snatch him up without worry.
hey... something else I didn't like about last games...
Flavour musn't give that much information in my opinion.
Or at least, it must be added in the rules so we know what type of information means what. I had to ask meph if I would know who had attacked me or not if I was a townie (as a dopp, I could not be attacked by other dopps).
Too much flavour information can work wonders to know exactly what happened closing the amount of possibilities for scum.
Maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow morning. Depends on how much time I have tonight to finish everything up. Game will start tomorrow at 10am pacific regardless.Yeah, I reeeally want to see the costs for each role...
Another question: Since te alien scientist lets people go if they are someone he already has, is he notified of the alignment of every player he abducts? Kind of like a foolproof detective? Would this effected by a holoformer?Maybe the holoformer works and once it shuts down later he gets "thrown back" if he turns out to be the same thing?
Another question: Since te alien scientist lets people go if they are someone he already has, is he notified of the alignment of every player he abducts? Kind of like a foolproof detective? Would this effected by a holoformer?Could the Exterminator, in an extreme situation, use the Plasma Bomb WHILE kidnapped on the Scientist? I mean, he's pretty much already screwed, so why not?
If a scientist grabs an exterminator, do the controlled dopp or alien operative revert to their "fall-back" objective? (i.e. Help the dopps for the controlled dopp, and survive for the operative?)
Also, with the new rules, is it possible to have more than type of alien? (More than one exterminator, for example?)
Hey, also, will a Plasma bomb be able to hit a paranoid war vet or the vengeful bodyguard varient without triggering a retaliation?
Goth: Similar to the Kook, the Goth is a normal townie. However, because of their look and actions they will be mistaken by the Agent as a Cultist.
Kook: The kook will gain the additional effect of talking to himself. That means that a Kook will always show up to the Watcher as having communicated with someone. That should tone down the Watcher's effect on the game just a hair.
New Role:
Goth: Similar to the Kook, the Goth is a normal townie. However, because of their look and actions they will be mistaken by the Agent as a Cultist.
Also, if a "mind control ray" were to successful hit a dopp that was going to perform a kill, could you redirect the kill back at himself, or at another dopp?
Maybe we should create "half-slot" items? Or double the number of slots of each alien as well as the value of every item now (i.e. Holoform modulator = 2/4 slots, Intel = 4/4 slots) and add some new 1-slot items.I disagree. I think that the Assassin Bot is very handy as it is. Yes, the reason no one takes it is that in large games, you are very unlikely to actually get to use it, but in smaller games, it is very ideal.
Basically, you could take 2 normal items, 1 super-item, or 4 weaker items, or 1 normal and 2 weaker.
The problem with the Assassin Bot is that everyone who could have one has at least one vastly superior alternative. The only one I could imagine taking it is the Doppelganger Mad Scientist, who still might be better off with other things.
Maybe we should create "half-slot" items? Or double the number of slots of each alien as well as the value of every item now (i.e. Holoform modulator = 2/4 slots, Intel = 4/4 slots) and add some new 1-slot items.I disagree. I think that the Assassin Bot is very handy as it is. Yes, the reason no one takes it is that in large games, you are very unlikely to actually get to use it, but in smaller games, it is very ideal.
Basically, you could take 2 normal items, 1 super-item, or 4 weaker items, or 1 normal and 2 weaker.
The problem with the Assassin Bot is that everyone who could have one has at least one vastly superior alternative. The only one I could imagine taking it is the Doppelganger Mad Scientist, who still might be better off with other things.
It is powerful as it is. We just need smaller games.
As if Paranormal Mafia is EVER going to start with a small number of people. It's just way to popular.
That's still grossly overpowered. 3 day kills? I think not. Just leave it at one.Maybe we should create "half-slot" items? Or double the number of slots of each alien as well as the value of every item now (i.e. Holoform modulator = 2/4 slots, Intel = 4/4 slots) and add some new 1-slot items.I disagree. I think that the Assassin Bot is very handy as it is. Yes, the reason no one takes it is that in large games, you are very unlikely to actually get to use it, but in smaller games, it is very ideal.
Basically, you could take 2 normal items, 1 super-item, or 4 weaker items, or 1 normal and 2 weaker.
The problem with the Assassin Bot is that everyone who could have one has at least one vastly superior alternative. The only one I could imagine taking it is the Doppelganger Mad Scientist, who still might be better off with other things.
It is powerful as it is. We just need smaller games.
How about, the amount of times the assassin bot is allowed to be used is (number of players at the start of the game/7)=uses *rounding down*?
Do you have to reserve to get into the next round, or do you just let anyone in?
Controlled DoppelgangerDoes that mean that the doppelganger needs to kill all the other Doppelgangers in the group if the exterminator dies, or does it mean that the controlled doppelganger has his goal changed to "Doppelganger win" when the exterminator dies? The second seems problematic, as he could simply direct the night kill at the exterminator and become a normal doppelganger.
Victory: All non-Exterminator aligned players are dead or Doppelgangers if the Exterminator is dead.
His goal is to have the Exterminator win, with a secondary goal of having the dopps win if the Exterminator. He could also betray the Exterminator, you're right.Well, I'd say it's a pretty bad situation as it is. I'd never want it in a game. It's a mafia in the mafia...
Hmm...thoughts on this? I'm thinking of making him lose if he betrays the Exterminator, or maybe have him die outright himself if he does that. (Alien impants or something to prevent this type of betrayal). Mostly because the Exterminator has a hard enough time winning without worrying about his own teammate turning on him.
There can only be 1 of each Alien Role in a game. An Exterminator can have either an Operative or a Controlled Doppelganger working with him, not both.Does that mean there's always one of each alien (except the operative, who may be replaced by the controlled dopp) or does it mean there can be a maximum of one of each?
Or just remove the Operative AND the Controlled Doppelganger.Even with his night kill and two tech slots, I'm not sure if the Exterminator would have a chance of winning if he is completely on his own.
Hmm...or I could keep them with the Exterminator's win condition. Everyone who isn't on their team has to die for them to win.Yeah, that sortof makes sense. Although they'd have to be pretty lucky to win without the exterminator ;D. Can controlled operatives have additional roles?
Something I wonder: What is it to stop the controlled doppelganger from revealing all the information about the doppelganger to the Exterminator, and then having the Exterminator convince the town to lynch all the doppelgangers, including the controlled Doppelganger (so as to gain trust within the Town)?
Something I wonder: What is it to stop the controlled doppelganger from revealing all the information about the doppelganger to the Exterminator, and then having the Exterminator convince the town to lynch all the doppelgangers, including the controlled Doppelganger (so as to gain trust within the Town)?1. The townies may not believe him.
As much as I like this I fail to see where MS Paint becomes necessary. o_O
My main idea would be to apply conditional votes in the reverse order that they are received. In the case going on in the game of one person saying "tie the vote" and another (later) saying "untie the vote":
- All non-conditional votes are counted.
- "Untie the vote" applies. If the votes are tied, untie them; otherwise, don't apply it.
- "Tie the vote" applies. The votes are currently untied, so tie them.
Reverse the order to keep the first poster from re-posting his initial vote to change the order. (It could still happen, but would be less likely.)
(Overall, I think people should just pay attention to the game and avoid situations where it is necessary.)
Thoughts?
also, You're totally ignoring the concept of a hammer. When half the players + 1 have voted you should lynch and end the day...
Yeah, I agree. A double lynch is supposed to be a way to settle it if two sides are really unprepared to meet a consensus, not something that people should actively aim for. I'd agree with some way to break a tie (first person to have their votes completed sounds good).I'm also actively against double lynches. It's just a game-ruiner. Otherwise, I'd tell everyone to lynch themselves first day.
I'm also actively against double lynches. It's just a game-ruiner. Otherwise, I'd tell everyone to lynch themselves first day.
Only solution that counts. Plus, then the Exterminator wins and everyone else ties?I'm also actively against double lynches. It's just a game-ruiner. Otherwise, I'd tell everyone to lynch themselves first day.
Now that... That would be an interesting game.
Only solution that counts. Plus, then the Exterminator wins and everyone else ties?I'm also actively against double lynches. It's just a game-ruiner. Otherwise, I'd tell everyone to lynch themselves first day.
Now that... That would be an interesting game.
Most aliens would lose, actually.Only solution that counts. Plus, then the Exterminator wins and everyone else ties?I'm also actively against double lynches. It's just a game-ruiner. Otherwise, I'd tell everyone to lynch themselves first day.
Now that... That would be an interesting game.
Let me think. Isn't the win condition of the Town is to exterminate all Scum? And the win condition of the Doppelganger is to kill all people other than the "Survivor Alien"? And isn't the goal of the Exterminator is to exterminate all non-Exterminators?
Wouldn't every one win except the Survivor Alien?
Not that you can actually lynch more then 2 people per day, anyway.It's either one or infinite.
Not that you can actually lynch more then 2 people per day, anyway.It's either one or infinite.
I just feel it makes the game too different from what it's supposed to be. It's like adding another turn to Battleship, but only for one person. You sank my Battleship AND my Aircraft Carrier! That Patrol Boat? One-shotted. Oh, still can't find my Submarine? That's probably because I didn't put it on the board...Not that you can actually lynch more then 2 people per day, anyway.It's either one or infinite.
Not sure I understand that statement but your dislike of multiple lynches has been noted.
I just feel it makes the game too different from what it's supposed to be. It's like adding another turn to Battleship, but only for one person. You sank my Battleship AND my Aircraft Carrier! That Patrol Boat? One-shotted. Oh, still can't find my Submarine? That's probably because I didn't put it on the board...Not that you can actually lynch more then 2 people per day, anyway.It's either one or infinite.
Not sure I understand that statement but your dislike of multiple lynches has been noted.
And, it's actually hurtful to Town and Scum alike, and only benefits the Exterminator... Who may or may not need it. That is all.
Wrong Janus! The rules as they are allow for a trick of EPIC proportions. Suppose there is a dopp enchanter, then that dopp can proceed with the crowd to "tie" between two people, and then at the end, only ONE person will be lynched! And because it requires that half of everyone to be involved, that allows him to weed out a town, protect a fellow dopp, and perform a 6+ way WIFOM.
Rysith, if you're going to complain about the rules, complain about them separately.It's not a game-winning strategy. It's just killing off everyone but you. That's lame.
I can see the guff people have with conditioned votes, and outlawing them might be something I could get behind. The only thing I'm worried about is the possibility of Ebay-style vote sniping.
Double lynches, on the other hand, had this weird property of being completely unknown and uncared about until I formed a game-winning strategy that involved them, and now everyone's crazy about'em. Personally, the DL rule is a tool for the town to use, and they've been VERY luck thus far with it, but this also allows them to bite themselves in the ass. Pretty hard, might I add.
I wasn't talking about your "Everyone votes for themselves" strategy WA, I was talking about how I cornered the two reporters in Paranormal 6!Yes, but if you think about it, that was lame. If you had chosen to lynch one, it's based on cunning and intellect. If you lynch both, it's not really a game. It's just taking a gun and shooting both.
Wrong Janus! The rules as they are allow for a trick of EPIC proportions. Suppose there is a dopp enchanter, then that dopp can proceed with the crowd to "tie" between two people, and then at the end, only ONE person will be lynched! And because it requires that half of everyone to be involved, that allows him to weed out a town, protect a fellow dopp, and perform a 6+ way WIFOM.dude... and you would look at the waggon an narrow down and enchanter... ::)
Yes, but if you think about it, that was lame. If you had chosen to lynch one, it's based on cunning and intellect. If you lynch both, it's not really a game. It's just taking a gun and shooting both.QFT. Deciding who to lynch between 2 suspicious people is a great moment in mafia. Just lynching both is lazy and really sucks.
I agree.Wrong Janus! The rules as they are allow for a trick of EPIC proportions. Suppose there is a dopp enchanter, then that dopp can proceed with the crowd to "tie" between two people, and then at the end, only ONE person will be lynched! And because it requires that half of everyone to be involved, that allows him to weed out a town, protect a fellow dopp, and perform a 6+ way WIFOM.dude... and you would look at the waggon an narrow down and enchanter... ::)
You need to stop thinking about UNIQUE game scenarios and think about the OVERALL game.Quote from: WebadictYes, but if you think about it, that was lame. If you had chosen to lynch one, it's based on cunning and intellect. If you lynch both, it's not really a game. It's just taking a gun and shooting both.QFT. Deciding who to lynch between 2 suspicious people is a great moment in mafia. Just lynching both is lazy and really sucks.
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Anyway... proposition for next game...
Let's balance this thing with 1 mafia before attempting to make it a multiple mafia game...
As josh said in the game... Scum actually needs to scumhunt the other team so lack of scumhunting is not necesarilly a scumtell...
Let's PLEASE go back to dopps vs town with the additional aliens...
Anything else is just a bloody and swingy mess...
I think conditional votes should be allowed at least for when people aren't going to be able to log in and check on things by the end of the phase.
Things like Vote for Inaluct, unvote Inaluct if he posts, for lurker-lynching. Stuff like that, at least, seems like it would be fine - less abusable than double-lynching, to be sure
Ultimately, It'll make people careful when voting...
I would be ok with really simple conditional voting, but it's the players that have to be careful with conditional voting. It's the guys' who did the conditional votings fault that ToonyMan got lynched when he shouldn't of. You have to be careful, so I don't think I'll conditional vote even if it is allowed, tbh.That particular case was a lynch because they felt he was breaking the rules, as far as I could tell.
Conditional voting means that people can still vote and ensure that their vote gets counted, even if they are unable to access the thread and update their vote. Victory in Mafia should be based on strategy, not based on who is online and is able to post just a few hours before deadline changing their votes. Conditional voting must be kept.Strategy comes when you vote the right person not when you vote preemptively based on a series of conditions... Scum could easyly manipulate those conditions to avoid getting lynched... ::)
The problem i still see is that in free pm games... once you clear a townie... if that townie is sufficiently smart you've got the cleared townie with MC info that he can use to find scum...
wich is when everybody stops scumhunting and the game gets ruined...
If someone claims a power role and is attacked by the dopps (and protected), they could in fact be a cultist aiming to become a "confirmed" towny. So then this scum would be able to see everyone's roles in the MC that usually follows a confirmed towny (am I right in thinking that the reason the ghost was unbalanced was because everyone could send their powerrole information through him, and so therefore anonymously post the results of their investigations?).
Not sure about the masons idea, it's an interesting premise, but it would certainly change the game a lot.
wrong... it's not that hard to confirm someone. You just have to have a claimed PR that has been attacked by dopps (This is where flavour kills the game IMO) and you'll know he is not a dopp. An alien could not keep faking to have succesful results...
I'd like the appearance of a Power Role that may "Listen" (Will get all the Pms sent and received by a certain player. Problem is, that it would be a burden for the mod.
Actually, they can be idenitifed by the Agent.
Alien Scientist will need to abduct a Human, a Human Cultist, and an Alien for study.I suppose that means in large games he'll need a human, a cultist, a dopp and an alien?
QuoteAlien Scientist will need to abduct a Human, a Human Cultist, and an Alien for study.I suppose that means in large games he'll need a human, a cultist, a dopp and an alien?
Hmm, evil idea: make each side immune to each other's nightkills. The pm flavor text could show a shootout ending in a draw, signaling that both people are rivals. causing the two groups to have to manipulate the day lynchings to weaken each other. When Pro-towns = one of the groups:
PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.I agree. We all loved it with the few powers it had at the beginning.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!
Real solution: Keep it simple. Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.
PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!
Real solution: Keep it simple. Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.
Well, as much fun as unpredictable COULD be, it's not really the game we were expecting. We'd much rather have a fair game for both sides...PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!
Real solution: Keep it simple. Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.
Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.
Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.It's evident that you've never been scum in paranormal... ::)
Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.It's evident that you've never been scum in paranormal... ::)
The first games were fun and they didn't have so much stuff in them. So your point that we need 2 scum teams is absurd.
Swingy games are not fun. They're frustrating because you could perfectly throw a couple of AI bots and make them play because it's not really up to them but up to the combination of random night actions...3) "Swingy" games are fun. You are ignoring the prospects of WIFOM choices, or how a lucky break could swing the game to and for your way. You could attempt to use more strategy, trying to deal with the different and varied situation in question.
I'm fairly certain that that's not really what would happen, especially with the ending, in those scenarios. Scum A would need to outnumber townies + Scum B for the game to end, since townies can still vote (so 2 cult + 2 townies > 3 dopps, for example).
One possibility to reduce cross-kills, at least at the beginning, would be to have cult dopp detectors and dopp cult detectors. While that's similar to making them immune to eachother's nightkills, I think that having them remain nightkill-able would prevent simply throwing them to the lynch mob on discovery.
I'd definitely agree that we need more than 25% scum for multiple scum groups to work, likely something like 40% + more power roles. That means that each scum group has 20% of the player base (so a bit smaller than a single scum group), and the power roles to avoid accidentally killing off 50% of the scum in the first two days.
I think if we have another game with 2 mafias I'll first go with beefing up their number of power roles a good bit. Not letting them kill each other seems a bit odd, and maybe too unbalanced against the town.
For those that don't like having two mafias, what's your opinion on the cult as an alternate mafia group? Should we keep them in as variety or would you prefer we stick with just dopps?
^^AND it makes the survivor alien Town alligned.
3) The town is given a power boost in the balancer to account for the fact that the scum will be hunting each other.Was that a mistake?
Sounds ok, but this bit:Quote3) The town is given a power boost in the balancer to account for the fact that the scum will be hunting each other.Was that a mistake?
Okay, but are you making each scum team balance out, rolewise, or do they each count against the town, and not each other?Sounds ok, but this bit:Quote3) The town is given a power boost in the balancer to account for the fact that the scum will be hunting each other.Was that a mistake?
No, but it may not make sense to you. My program balances out each side, trying to get the overall balance of the game to 0. So, say the town gets an Agent (power 4), the Overall balance is now 4, in favor of the town. Then the Dopps get a Guardian (power -6), balance is now -2 in favor of the scum. By giving the town a power boost in the balance at the beginning, I'm effectively giving the scum a boost in power roles (or more powerful power roles).
Does that make sense now?
The program will try to balance them out against each other as well by splitting the power between the two, but it will accept an inbalance between the scum factions in favor of a balance between town and scum overall.How much of an imbalance? Significantly imbalanced, or only slightly?
Only slightly. Usually just a point or two. And I can always rebalance things by hand if need be.Oh that's fine. I was just making sure it wasn't like equal to town, but 6 points in one direction.
Ok, general questions for everyone.1) Double lynches are bad.
1) Do you have any concerns/comments with the current rule set listed on the front page?
2) What is your opinion of the suggested changes on the front page?
3) Opinion on the Cult (voting in the poll is fine, unless you have more to say)
4) Opinion on the size of games? Should we limit the number of players we have?
Question 4 is due to webadict's comment in round 7 about people finding it too hard to scumhunt with such a large group. I think that's partially true in that round, where we had almost no PRs. In a normal game, where most players have a Power Role, would a 23-person game have been less frustrating?
Might I suggest a new role? The Spook. Due to his frightening appearance, players attempting non-kill actions will be scared off and have their actions fail. Killers, however, are strong-willed enough to go through with the kill.It should be about -3 for scum, actually. Since no one can investigate them for their team, it'd be better for scum than town.
Basically, an ascetic. -1 to town, -2 if scum should be fair, I think.
I don't know WA, wouldn't that also make them unprotectable?True, but think about how often scum needs protecting against kills...
In theory, the town could now have 2 War Vets and 2 Vigilantes, so scum protecting each other isn't that far-fetched.And the scum get a Doctor? And can't conveniently protect the one guy that needs it because he's immune to it? This is a little far-fetched...
I really like that example, use something like that next round.
Are you saying that a sufficiently large game will have every single role?
ToonyMan just wants to be a warden :D
Moderate Cultist. You believe in the Great Old Ones, but you do not support your extermist brethen's goal in summoning them using involuntary blood sacrifices. The Great Old Ones will only come when people willingly submit themselves. That can only be done through spreading the message peacefully.
You are part of the Cult, but your goal is to destroy the Cult from within. Once this happens, you win. You then leave the game, as you flee the area over to a more safe location where you can rebuild the Cult in a more 'moderate' fashion.
Except without the EA.ToonyMan just wants to be a warden :D
Yeah. ;DModerate Cultist. You believe in the Great Old Ones, but you do not support your extermist brethen's goal in summoning them using involuntary blood sacrifices. The Great Old Ones will only come when people willingly submit themselves. That can only be done through spreading the message peacefully.
You are part of the Cult, but your goal is to destroy the Cult from within. Once this happens, you win. You then leave the game, as you flee the area over to a more safe location where you can rebuild the Cult in a more 'moderate' fashion.
I don't know about that one...it's liked a controlled dopp right?
So nobody likes Cult then? I haven't voted yet.
I really like that example, use something like that next round.Did you stop to think what were the possible interactions ??? With so much information (Remember that the medium recovers the dead's people information) town can probably logically deduce scum. With enough effort.
I find it odd that me and Alexhans are the only non-PR in that setup. On the plus side, that means I would be doing the dopp kills and would have bodyguard protection.what about the game before last? There was just 1 townie...
So far as the cult goes, I think it would be interesting to see how a two mafia game goes with actually having a few more power roles floating around. If it still breaks, we move on. Might be interesting though.last game was actually the first game with more townies than PRs
last game was actually the first game with more townies than PRs
Did you stop to think what were the possible interactions ??? With so much information (Remember that the medium recovers the dead's people information) town can probably logically deduce scum. With enough effort.The medium would indeed find the dead people's info, but then again, roleclaiming as a medium would be suicide.
Have you seen a game without a doc yet?Did you stop to think what were the possible interactions ??? With so much information (Remember that the medium recovers the dead's people information) town can probably logically deduce scum. With enough effort.The medium would indeed find the dead people's info, but then again, roleclaiming as a medium would be suicide.
Did you stop to think what were the possible interactions ??? With so much information (Remember that the medium recovers the dead's people information) town can probably logically deduce scum. With enough effort.The medium would indeed find the dead people's info, but then again, roleclaiming as a medium would be suicide.
Actually, yes, on the off chance that there is both a dopp and a town medium things could get rather interesting.
basically, the scum medium needs to not post in the dead chat and wait for people to discuss the game...The first post of the Dead Chat says if there's a Medium or not.
Then feed that info to his team...
what about the allignment?basically, the scum medium needs to not post in the dead chat and wait for people to discuss the game...The first post of the Dead Chat says if there's a Medium or not.
Then feed that info to his team...
The question is though, HOW could a medium prove that they are townie?
If there's more than one medium and I'm dead... there's no way in hell I'm gonna speak until they both claim their roles in the main thread or one of them flips.Exactly, so the whole "info flying everywhere" thing is averted, at least mostly.
The first post of the Dead Chat will say how many Mediums there are. It will not state the alignment of the mediums, so the dead truly cannot trust the mediums unless they get some information on them.
The first post of the Dead Chat will say how many Mediums there are. It will not state the alignment of the mediums, so the dead truly cannot trust the mediums unless they get some information on them.
Just realized that the first post shouldn't say how many mediums there are, since that gives the Mediums information about active roles that they shouldn't have. So I think it will just state whether or not there are any mediums in the game at all.
Oh, no, they hate that. Happened once, and it went poorly. Although that may have been partially due to someone posing as the Medium (we had aliases the first time) and leading them on.I thought it was funny :)
On the contrary, if it's a dopp-only game, and there's a goth dopp, the agent will see him as cult, and appropriately say "WTF?" Then they talk, and the dopp says he's a goth. The dopp's real race is therefore hidden.
If the current Paranormal plays out like I think it's gonna, then the town's already won. I may have underestimated the presence of the watcher role, I'm not sure if everyone's ready for it.
The time from conception to implementation was large, that much is sure, and I think it's been mostly forgotten about, so no one's built up a defense against it, which is why it's making such a large impact.
So, overpowered role, or underprepared players?
Remove the watcher role doods.I've been saying that the whole time!
Remove the watcher role doods.I've been saying that the whole time!
I still feel really bad, and would feel better if it were taken out completely.
But I'm disliking that watcher role already... All town has to do is not pm anybody and they will be able to clear people...EDIT, here, as you guessed. I meant scum's chances...
If the watcher is smart enough he will check lurkers who probably won't pm other people and start clearing them.
Meph... did you think about this when you designed the role? There's too many things that can screw the town's chances.
What? Alex isn't in this game? NOOO! He's so pompously arrogant and snobbishly devoted to old school MS rules, it won't feel the same without him!
I still feel really bad, and would feel better if it were taken out completely.Soo... I was a fool, right? Trying to look for balance in a mafia game?
Yeah... but our goal must be balance & fun...
PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!
Real solution: Keep it simple.
Before adding any role we should ask a couple of questions:
1) Why are we adding the role?
2) How does interact with the rest of the roles?
3) Who could fake claim that role? How? Is there a way for town to see through the lie?
4) Does it add to the theme?
5) How much Wifom does it add?
I vote to scrap it completely. We need less roles, not more!
You know, I wonder if it occurred to anyone that, instead of changing the role, we should instead be changing the strategy. Namely, dopps should learn to not PM during the day, since they may be seen by the watcher. A town base should not PM during the day, as they may be seen by a dopp watcher. I don't see why the role is so gamebreaking when it can be avoided by simply not PM'ing during the day. It merely means that extra precautions need to be taken. I'm personally for the "make it a 1-shot ability." You get the danger in the act without the realization of the danger all the time.
My response to the Watcher stands.I vote to scrap it completely. We need less roles, not more!
If we make it remote-detonated, I'd have to go with just the Scientist and whomever he's interacting with so the Exterminator can actually use it to get away.
If we make it remote-detonated, I'd have to go with just the Scientist and whomever he's interacting with so the Exterminator can actually use it to get away.
THis, allthough I wouldn't mind having captives die aswell. I like being a pain-in-the-ass.
Also, do you guys think the shield ought to block the scientist freeze ray?
how about as a variant of watching one person a day, the watcher can select as many people as they want to and find out if any of them have sent PMs? It could go on a similar schedule to what it does now (two requests a day, I think), with the watcher player needing to choose between specificity and number of people to check. So, a check might look like:
Watcher: I watch chaoticjosh, Pandarsenic, Webadict, and Alexhans.
Meph: At least one of those players has sent a PM.
or
Watcher: I watch archangel
Meph: Archangel has not sent any PMs
They might also be able to give up a selection to also receive the next PM that someone sent, or something of that nature, if that doesn't seem useful enough.
Watcher: Each Day the watcher chooses one or more players to watch. If any of the players chosen communicate with another player via PM or Quicktopic, the watcher is notified at the end of the day that at least one of the watched players communicated. The Watcher will no not know which player(s) communicated or how many.So... if, by any chance... the answer is no then you've just cleared 5 townies... I don't care about the odds of a Cult Leader or telepath... They can be rounded up later with other PRs...
Somehow, I don't think that Meph would overestimate the number of PMs sent too badly, seeing as he receives all of them. ;D
I'm good either way though.
I'm still going with this.My response to the Watcher stands.I vote to scrap it completely. We need less roles, not more!
Thoughts from other people? On both the Watcher and the Alien Scientist issue?Watcher isn't needed.
Thoughts from other people? On both the Watcher and the Alien Scientist issue?Assassin Bot must be used outside the ship, because otherwise, it's terrible.
My suggestion for Intel is that although it gives all the roles and abilities, it doesn't say which role has which ability either, because apparently it does do that currently..Although that was really helpful last game, I think it was doubly helpful because I only had 2 roles left to figure out by the end and one had a mind shield. In a game without a watcher, I don't think that the Intel would be quite as broken. (Because the Intel doesn't say who is what race).
Fair enough. I think I'm arguing from the point of having just been the Scientist.
In all likelihood, I'll probably never be the Scientist again (of course now that I said that, I will be this next game again (of course now that I said that... (*insert head exploding here*)))
Anyways, whooo for new round!
On a completely unrelated note, I think you should add another 2-slot alien tech. I think what it should do is, once activated, makes it so all night-kills are stopped that night. Actually, I think it should roleblock EVERYBODY that night, including the alien himself. It could also be cool if you could activate it during the day to force a no-lynch. Sadly, I suck with names. I would wind up just calling it something shitty, like "The Sleep Bomb".
It would make it obvious that something unusual was going on, but it would also make it far more "interesting" for the townies to track things down.
That's true. If you made it show up as either a cult or dopp kill, I'd say it might be acceptable as a 1-slot item, actually. Making it 2-slot, you should gain the ability to make your kill look like it came from any kill source, including abduction.
Sounds shiny to me. And now I'll never be an alien again... :P
What happens if Combat Camouflage masks a kill as an abduction?
Well, the stun orb does two things. First, it's indistinguishable from any other type of Role-block from the target's perspective, so it can be useful for hiding your presence. Also, it blocks the player from using day abilities, like the Enchanter or Disciple of Truth, which the Mind-control ray can't do.Broken. Plasma Bomb + Shield = Broken. I like the skills.
It probably won't be incredibly popular, but it is an option.
Oh, and I had a thought: Should I take away the Operative's granted abilities and just give him a bunch of tech points? I'm not sure if that would be cool, less useful, or just broken.
What if he had, say, 4 tech slots but couldn't take any of the 2 slot items?
Yes, I began to realise that even just after I'd posted it. On the other hand, there aren't so many psychic abilities where you'd be able to tell if someone has a mindshield - the Warden is one of them. Here's a possible solution to the problem of easy to find EAs:Yes.
Telepath - Possibly gets a Survive result, although this would weaken this role a bit.
Disciple of Truth - Well, using this on an EA will already make their role known, so they could just be blocked as usual.
Warden - Thinks he has successfully roleblocked the Exterminator, when he actually has't.
Warlock - Doesn't matter much, the Warlock doesn't know who the morning kill shouldve got.
Meph, can you send me the program you use for Paranormal Mafia. I was thinking of eventually converting it to handle Quantum Paranormal Mafia.Quantum Paranormal? Are you sure?
Wait, so when we say Advanced Mindshield, do we mean something like my suggestion that can't be detected too easily?Exactly like your suggestion. Look up a few posts.
I think he only needs a regular Mind Shield...Wait, so when we say Advanced Mindshield, do we mean something like my suggestion that can't be detected too easily?Exactly like your suggestion. Look up a few posts.
Yeah, and even a psychic warden would be able to clear people of being an Exterminator.Uh huh... Or you could do a bit more than that.
Discipline of Truth is a broken role. Why isn't it gone yet?Because it's just not broken enough.
Seems a bit... unfair to the scum, in a way. Firstly, detectives will become Agents, to some extent, as "No role" suddenly becomes "Scum". Also, the Cult Leader/ Dopp Leaders will lose their resistance to detectives. It also means it's harder for the scum to claim something that can't be rumbled by a CT.We could try getting rid of the CT...
I guess we'd need to axe all the investigative roles, then. Telepath + Agent = confirmed towny.Not if you lie enough.
Ok, I'll give you the point that CT's are problematic.I would like to say that one of those games would've been won for Dopps if some small thing had been changed. Also, I won for all those Dopp wins (High five! I've won 7/9!) Perhaps it is simply OVERLOAD OF ROLES SINCE ROUND THREE?!?!?!?!?
The problem is less with Investigative roles as it is with the DoT. It's a powerful role that can either guarantee scum or CT if we lynch the DoT (who become VT). For the Telepath + Agent, we'd have to either confirm both or kill both to get a CT. It's just not worth it.
Also, I went back and looked at the game results and I see what you mean. Making the game harder for the scum seems mildly problematic as they haven't won since Round 3. Mayhaps we should buff the scum somehow instead to try to work on game balance?Spoiler: Paranormal results (click to show/hide)
Granted, a few of the games were kind of close... (Round 9 ;D)
Shouldn't the dopps having more roles counter this? And the relatively role free game, round 7, didn't exactly go great for the mafias...Round 7 had two mafias...
Other games can work with 2 mafias because the town tends to be weaker. It's well established that 2 mafia groups actually weaken the mafia overall due to crossfire.It's also a very newbie friendly game. Yes, we'd love to weaken the town with MORE power roles... But I think it needs less.
Most of the roles out there give the town a ton of power, to the point where they can rely fully on their roles to out the scum. Giving the scum powers helps...a little, but only to a point since their main problem isn't locating players but, instead, avoiding discovery.
In short: there's too many ways for the town to find the scum. Meanwhile, the scum have very little to use in avoiding detection.
Note that the last batch of advances given were to the aliens which, while not always pro-town, isn't pro-scum either.
If you want more powers but add to the balance, then you need pro-scum roles. Specifically, you need roles that help the mafia trick the town.
i.e. Where's the redirecters? A dopp redirecter would make a nice counter to those investigative roles.
There's always sharpshooters: mafia that can bypass guardians and bodyguards.
Dopp/cult Role where everything, including the DOT, that targets it is redirected to some random person.
Basically, anti-power role scum roles so that the town can't 110% trust their findings.
Well, yeah. It's odd, since other games seem to work with 2 mafias. Perhaps the whole Servant Corps/ Toony thing didn't help the cultists either. Neither did the final cultist being a lurker...
I think he means Duke and Toony.Well, yeah. It's odd, since other games seem to work with 2 mafias. Perhaps the whole Servant Corps/ Toony thing didn't help the cultists either. Neither did the final cultist being a lurker...
Huh? What did I do during that game? All I did was claim Survivor Alien, but that really didn't do much.
What do you mean, "How it was meant to be played"? I mean, unless Meph has a problem with the cult...Before your time, young one.
Although I do like the Doppelgangers too. Are they meant to be D&D style dopps? Can't find any appropriate google image search results...
Find a new meaning for the cult, not just a 'dopps but different' or remove.Perhaps the DoT could also become scum only? That would help them more with their rolecopping.
Make Detective Dopp only since only they really need it
DoT removed since the town doesn't really need it
For all of the fuss I'm making for cult, I wouldn't agree to adding them in. They are too game changing.
I agree with moving mind control to a separate role. DoT, of course, should be gone. Detective.. well, has there ever been a dopp detective? I know they tend to get guardians. If there's some mechanics to decide how often dopps recieve certain roles, I say make the detective show up more often for them. More townies is a good thing: what happened to to chance of it being a no-power game?
Heh. anti-town town PRs? Beloved Princess anyone? ;D
I think the DoT being unfun is probably the best argument against it. So I think I'll remove it for next round.Boom! Headshot!
I am willing to add in some other Cult roles to help differentiate them from the Dopps. Maybe a Charismatic Cultist who can flip someone's alignment to Cult once per game?
I'm hesitant about roles which do not allow people to talk... I at least would habe problems keeping things straight.
I'm hesitant about roles which do not allow people to talk... I at least would habe problems keeping things straight.
It's effectively like being Abducted. Which it's also supposed to mimic, so that people can't quite be sure if someone who's missing but not role-flipped has been abducted or not.
I think your game is popular almost BECAUSE of feature creep. (Well, that's why I find it interesting.) And because it's popular therefore active.WA does have a point, I wouldn't want this game to be a victim of feature creep.
Except the child will, in fact, be able to lynch if it's child andchild-stratI'm confused. Your scenario here could be applied to absolutely anybody, even a vanilla, no-role townie. Admittedly, the child role might attract a certain amount of focus, but not nearly as much as some of the high level players (you, Chaoticjosh, etc.) do.
Or they're modified to better serve the Great Old Ones.Actually, they can be idenitifed by the Agent.
Correct. Originally I had them identified by the Detective, but decided that unbalanced things too much. So the Agent figures out all Races now. Cultists just count as Human Cultist instead of Human. It's more a grouping distinction then anything else.
The Alien Scientist and any captives of his can all speak to one another. So, yes, you would know who else was a captive on the ship (although nothing else about them unless the Scientist chose to share).Except you know they're the other factions (though if alien, this is less useful than for the main factions)
Oh, people will moan of feature creep, but let's face it, Paranormal Mafia has long passed the point where the amount of roles is sensible, and nevertheless is still fun and popular. I mean, for crying out loud, there is a role option to guard against flavour text. We just have to live with it.
I am in favour of the new roles, and also the removal of the DoT.
How would vampires interact during the day, though?
Other than that, I would love those additions.
Maybe have Robot replace the Exterminator or his Operative?
Werewolf = Ghetto Warlock?
I had an idea that would be interesting, and tilt the balance more towards the scum: an ability that roleflip as town, even though it was really scum.That's called Pillar of the Community in IRC. Or Death Anti-Miller
Second: Is Exterminator still -1 weight? Because that would be part of the reason scum hasn't won much.
For the benefit of ToonyMan:Wait, so the role is passed from one player to another?
Robot
The robot is immune to most night kills. Most players will kill the original shell of the robot and it will shift to another body.
The only way to kill a robot is to lynch it (the town will find the copies and make sure to shut it down).
The robot's goal is to live to the end of the game.
The problem with this is that the Town might find a Robot that is willing to work with them. Since the Dopps cannot directly kill it, it becomes far more powerful.
Maybe any player can target a Robot with a specific 'Shut Down' action once the identity of a Robot is known?
(It's not as thought out as the rest of the roles, but I still think it might be interesting.)
Robot
The robot is immune to most night kills. Most players will kill the original shell of the robot and it will shift to another body.
The only way to kill a robot is to lynch it (the town will find the copies and make sure to shut it down).
The robot's goal is to be the last player standing, and watch all those meatbags die horrible, horrible deaths.
Do you have a stamp for that?It's kinda like the Chairman Bob thing, except like this:
Mafia Strongman wasn't bastard enough?
inaluct, Flintus10, LASD, and chaoticjosh lie dead in the street.the 'Spartacus' ;D, the Serial Killer, a Fr33mason, and Bruno the Strongman himself.
The swapped-role townies (goth, kook) seem fine, though, and might be turned into attributes like mind shield rather than roles in and of themselves (so you could have a kook telepath, or a goth war veteran). They might even be able to show up in games without their corresponding scum group, as well.
Sometimes the mafia all automatically get a "Falseclaim" ability, where they can ask the mod to send them another role pm for any role/ alignment. It would stop role pm quoting, at least.Intel ruins this.
'Nother idea - give the Alien Exterminator a Safeclaim ability too. That is, he'll be told the name of a neutral/ pro-town alien that isn't in the game, which he'll be able to claim without fear of a counter claim. Aliens that could be safeclaimed - Survivor, Seeker, Hunter, Watcher.
Sometimes the mafia all automatically get a "Falseclaim" ability, where they can ask the mod to send them another role pm for any role/ alignment. It would stop role pm quoting, at least.
'Nother idea - give the Alien Exterminator a Safeclaim ability too. That is, he'll be told the name of a neutral/ pro-town alien that isn't in the game, which he'll be able to claim without fear of a counter claim. Aliens that could be safeclaimed - Survivor, Seeker, Hunter, Watcher.
Intel ruins this.Only the Alien Scientist and the Watcher Alien could also have intel, and they possibly aren't too likely to say it.
I do like the 10 pages of roles here. I don't think we need to reduce the roles so much as we need games that host less roles. I love how NSBM is running along. Para (for those who love my 'Meth' messes, I have to keep editing 'Para'. I keep typing 'Pandar') is role crazy, simply put.
To get to the aliens, though, I notice the Scientist and Dopp Seeker have a boatload of power here and tend to grab up dopps easily. Perhaps they need a lot more weight for the town so that they show up less (or else the dopps get a batch more power).
sidenote: has the scientist and dopp seeker ever lost?
I kinda agree with Webadict. Winning as scum is about 0% right now.It's actually about 1.3%
Seems pretty fair, although I can't see the logic of some of the "Medium usually destroys it", to be honest. And yes, the Watcher's win condition is incompatible with everyone EXCEPT the Agent Seeker, Alien Scientist and Dopp/ Cult Hunter. I know having a global roleblock N1 is annoying, but other than that, the Watcher can't really do too much (and most other techs are unhelpful - Personal Shield might prevent one NK, HM might protect from an Agent, Scanner is pointless, Deadman Bomb is horrificly bad, MCR is pointless, Intel... well, there's not much you can do with it, Plasma Bomb would speed up the game, Stun Orb is a weaker version of MCR and the other 2 have no use for a Watcher. So yeah, a Watcher will probably end up as a global roleblocker.Yes, the Watcher isn't going to win either, unless you NL like 3 Days in a row and stun everyone. And maybe a few kill blocks. It's those other aliens that tend to ruin it.
I agree with giving Telepaths more weight, as well as some kind of false negative result other than the extremely unlikely HM. I'm tempted to say that Cult/ Dopp leaders should also return a Survive result.
Cult Hunter = 2 less players to start off with. Alien Scientist = Watcher is fucked, basically :P.lol, gg kthxbai.
When I say Telepath destroys it, I mean that claiming it as scum makes it show up a Kill Result no matter what, and with Detectives and Agents, there's nothing you can claim that's safe.Yeah, but what do the "Medium destroys it" comments mean?
I like the idea that the telepath reads more about what the person has donethat makes it a weak detecti'e which doesn't get defense-killed and something that specially blocks it
A weaker investigative role is better than a stronger one, considering how easy they can break games.Kinda like watching what ability you used. That IS a nice role. I like it.
Also, detectives, IIRC, view a doppleganger guardian as a 'guardian' even if the dopp kills. Telepaths would see the 'kill'. Even if the dopp protects instead, they can tell the detective that they did nothing (silly but there you go) while the telepath would catch that.
OTOH, right now the telepath is a detective and an agent that rarely gets false positives (since town killing roles aren't common), occasionaly gets false negatives (when the dopp has a power role and keeps using it), doesn't fear physical traps and is blocked by ONE special effect that, chances are, is on an alien or townie.
The problem is power roles being TOO powerful. There's nothing wrong with a weak power role if it's interesting and being able to tell what a person does each night is NOT weak.
MCR update.. cool in theory. However
Human Scientist has little use for it really. As for the aliens, the only one that may have a use for it is the Exterminator and there's much better tech out there.
The dopps, however, would make good use of it. How often does a dopp scientist show up? If it's not insanely rare, I'd say go for it so the dopps get a fun toy.
Small suggestions though: Make it every day (not just one time only) and make it so that only the target is told they are being controlled.
"OMG I'm being controled ..nooooo!" *vote townie*
I think "Manipulate" sounds fine - basically something you get if they were doing something to someone that isn't investigative, protecting, killing or abducting. After all, the Psychic Warden manipulates people's minds to prevent them from doing anything, right?
Not sure about "abduct" since, as you say, only Scientists and Seekers would return it. "Find" seems fine for of them.
We could always just do it the Mafiachat way and turn it into "you see if they do an action or not" like Mafiachat's 'Watcher'. I'm giving the telepath more power than that and it wasn't exactly weak as it was.=one half of Reporter.
There is one advantage with the telepath seeing the 'used' role:
Someone claims "I, a guardian, protected soandso last night". Telepath, however, saw them as "Survive". Telepath just caught a lie.
Even "I tried to protect but was roleblocked" gets ruined since the telepath still sees them as Protect if they did just that.
Thus while the telepath gets some means to read the role, their TRUE power is to see what people are DOING during the night. Honestly, the detective is for "What role am I" Telepath is for "What did I do".
We could always just do it the Mafiachat way and turn it into "you see if they do an action or not" like Mafiachat's 'Watcher'. I'm giving the telepath more power than that and it wasn't exactly weak as it was.
Do remember that a seeker winning is like a town death: minus one non-dopp vote.
It hasn't mattered, but it could.
Telepath thoughts:
1. I like the present fluff/crunch melding for all the roles, telepath included.
2. I think the telepath working only on a 'used' role makes them too weak
3. the present "kill" result is waaaay too strong, since it gets the main antitown: Exterminator, Scum.
So yeah, some manner of telepath-miller abilities seems about right for me. I think the reason there's still only 'protect' and no 'manipulate' is that else, your protects are all good.
Enchanter gets better for both sides if they work instead like a Secret [daypick] Motivational Voter- thatis, they can secretly change who their second vote is on during the day (including nobody/themselves)
Good points. However, that's made me rethink, maybe the Telepath should be more like "What can I do?" instead of "What did I do?". That's making me rethink the idea of "Different actions and techs give different results". I just wanted to weaken the Telepath a little bit, not change the role a whole bunch. Besides, what goal does a player have if they're an Agent Seeker who both used a Scanner and contacted a player? That kind of thing needs to be dealt with BEFORE the changes get enacted.
Watcher is a good add.
There really needs to be a role that gets "Protect" as a goal but isn't actually protecting anyone. How about some straight mafia-ally? Doppleganger Surveyor and Cult Surveyor? Should probably get no tech slots at all, since they have an even easier time than the Dopp Seeker and Cult Seeker.
Watcher still gets 'survive' though. Just make the Modulator a nightly thing instead of a one time use and there you go.I don't think he would, to be honest. There are easier ways to pull a lynch than to waste a tech slot...
3) Change Mind Control Ray to: Once per game you can take over someone's mind. During the Next Day & Night you choose who they will vote for at the end of the day and who their night target will be (if they have no night role, you just get to determine their vote)Would this be changeable throughout the day? If so, how would that work? Would the Mind Controller PM you and then you publicly announce the changed vote? It would add some work on your part during that one day, but not too terribly much, methinks.
Stun Bomb Protect if usedDoesn't really matter, since the telepath will also be stuck in his bed :P.
"No, I'm not scum! I think the Confirmed Towny is scum! That's why I'm voting him! ARGH!!!";D
Random comment of the day:
The maximum amount of time that the forums can track being logged in for is apparently somewhere between 5 and 6 days. I've been at the 5 days and some odd hours for a couple of weeks now methinks...
Random comment of the day:
The maximum amount of time that the forums can track being logged in for is apparently somewhere between 5 and 6 days. I've been at the 5 days and some odd hours for a couple of weeks now methinks...
Hmmm. No, it can go more then that. Here's mine: Total time logged in: 84 days, 8 hours and 27 minutes.
Total time logged in: 17 days, 6 hours and 12 minutes.That does include the time I spent watching or playing something else with the forums still open though. And the time I accidentally left my computer on overnight...
Hehe. I pretty much always have a computer logged into here, either at work or home. And my work computer is pretty much on all the time.Scum finally have a chance :P
Anyway, any comments on the changes for next round?
Hehe. I pretty much always have a computer logged into here, either at work or home. And my work computer is pretty much on all the time.Scum finally have a chance :P
Anyway, any comments on the changes for next round?
Haha. Reminds me of... every game.Hehe. I pretty much always have a computer logged into here, either at work or home. And my work computer is pretty much on all the time.Scum finally have a chance :P
Anyway, any comments on the changes for next round?
Just make me scum with Web--wait....no, that wouldn't go to well. Webadict would get investigated, protected, and killed all in the first night.
Anyway, any comments on the changes for next round?...Where are they? I'm not seeing a copy updated today anywhere.
Give web a mind shield and security system.Oh god... I can't win as a Jester...
Then make him a jester :D
I'd watch that.
Give web a mind shield and security system.Oh god... I can't win as a Jester...
Then make him a jester :D
I'd watch that.
I doubt it. SOMEBODY would shoot me. Well, probably like 3 somebodies.
But I'm sure I could get a few to shoot each other.
Bastard ModExcept he can argue that the confirmation means nothing by this.
Hehe... no one's played with me as a Bastard Host.
:D
Eliminate Killer Witch and make her Pro-Cult and I say yay.I'm thinking more along the lines of Witch=Vigilante. You could choose between a hazardous killing role, or a relatively safe manipulator role.
Why not pro-town? Why would the town need something like a vote manipulator? That's a scumists dream right there, especially with the 'don't say you are being manipulated' role restriction.
EhSo basically, when I start acting weird...
No thanks.
A vote-manipulator is just asking for trouble. Because then it depends on the player chosen as to how effective your role is; choose someone who's idea of a pokerface is reflective sunglasses and your tinkering is going to be noticed pretty soon; however, choose a more talented individual who is good at bluffing and making up reasons, and you could not be noticed at all.
If they lurk or otherwise fail to follow orders, they die AND the day ends. Thus, not following along will cost the town a mislynch.Actually, I think all regular lynches should still happen when a Controlled person kills themselves.
I was a townie in Paranormal 10.What are you talking about, Toony? Now you get to spend all eternity drifting around in space with me, RedWarrior0 and Apost. It'll be fun! I'll get the marshmallows.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
I was a townie in Paranormal 10.What are you talking about, Toony? Now you get to spend all eternity drifting around in space with me, RedWarrior0 and Apost. It'll be fun! I'll get the marshmallows.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
At least you're not stuck with Janus every time...I was a townie in Paranormal 10.What are you talking about, Toony? Now you get to spend all eternity drifting around in space with me, RedWarrior0 and Apost. It'll be fun! I'll get the marshmallows.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
IM THE ONLY NORMAL DUDE
At least you're not stuck with Janus every time...
I was a townie in Paranormal 10.ARGHH!!! That's what mafia is all about... Roles are only candy for the foolish and possible poison for the wise.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
I was a townie in Paranormal 10.ARGHH!!! That's what mafia is all about... Roles are only candy for the foolish and possible poison for the wise.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
Hmm...I've been pondering the Scientist, and I'm wondering if he needs to be a little more Anti-town to balance him out (he's supposed to be a totally neutral role, like the Watcher). Would having him take 2 normal humans instead of 1 help with this? The town shouldn't just go 'oh, sure, we'll help you. Take whoever you want in exchange for a scum'. But that's pretty much what we have going on currently.No, the problem was that he was like "Oh, here's my info, leave me alone while I win."
The problem is that the town's advantage is numbers. They are more than willing to sacrifice themselves in order to claim one of the informed minority.CTs
What will probably balance him out is to make it harder for him to locate the dopp/cult and, thus, be more capable of making misabducts, similar to the Vet. What's been allowing the scientist to succeed in finding dopps so easily?
Oh, don't worry. It'll be fun! For me at least. I get to perform all sorts of experiments on you guys and it seems I misplaced my anesthetic.I was a townie in Paranormal 10.What are you talking about, Toony? Now you get to spend all eternity drifting around in space with me, RedWarrior0 and Apost. It'll be fun! I'll get the marshmallows.
Being townie isn't as fun to play as a role with an ability. I only have logic to guide me.
IM THE ONLY NORMAL DUDE
Mmm... I like yours even more.I'll exclaim Day 1 for everyone to scan me with all abilities and protect me. CT!
Although all of this talk may not be necessary with only one tech point (no Intel) and without easy CTs to worry about (we hope).
And after I already went out and said that I wouldn't target you this time around... ;DMmm... I like yours even more.I'll exclaim Day 1 for everyone to scan me with all abilities and protect me. CT!
Although all of this talk may not be necessary with only one tech point (no Intel) and without easy CTs to worry about (we hope).
lol, it's me :PAnd after I already went out and said that I wouldn't target you this time around... ;DMmm... I like yours even more.I'll exclaim Day 1 for everyone to scan me with all abilities and protect me. CT!
Although all of this talk may not be necessary with only one tech point (no Intel) and without easy CTs to worry about (we hope).
Edit: Or, even better, there's an Exterminator around with a Plasma Bomb and an amusing sense of humor. BOOM! Half the town is killed in a single night. :P
It would be hilarious if you turned out to be a cult PWV. You'd die, but along with most of the town PRs :P.Mmm... I like yours even more.I'll exclaim Day 1 for everyone to scan me with all abilities and protect me. CT!
Although all of this talk may not be necessary with only one tech point (no Intel) and without easy CTs to worry about (we hope).
Hmmm...what if the Scientist had to capture a Psychic Human to study? That would automatically make the player in question much more valuable as well as provide a reason for the capture.Ah, that would make sense. So he'd have to grab a telepath (pretty valuable), medium (super valuable), warden (fairly useful), warlock (can be useful) or enchanter (not so useful, but pretty damn hard to find). I don't think the town would happily trade a medium and a towny for a scum player...
Abducting extra townies.. I like. I can see the watcher wanting that scientist dead to bring back those people.And I can see the Watcher not being able to do anything about it other than send the scientist angry pms.
Assassin Bot?Abducting extra townies.. I like. I can see the watcher wanting that scientist dead to bring back those people.And I can see the Watcher not being able to do anything about it other than send the scientist angry pms.
Assassin Bot?Which means no stun bomb, and therefore no other ways to influence the game...
And he'd have to know if there was a Scientist.QuoteAssassin Bot?Which means no stun bomb, and therefore no other ways to influence the game...
Jack of all trades?Replace redirect with a brain control and then it'd work. :)
One shot access to Roleblock + kill + Protect + redirect and 2 slots?
Sounds crazy but considering his job it's not that easy for him.
Vamps... how are they going to go again?
Does each converted Vampire get those abilities?Vamps... how are they going to go again?
For Round 11, I don't think they will. But after that, they're basically a Cult that chooses a target and then one of four random effects will happen.
- No result
- Roleblock
- Kill
- Conversion
In each case, the target knows they were targeted by a Vampire in the morning (granted it's not really helpful in the third case).
At least that's what I'd like to see...
Does each converted Vampire get those abilities?
Still not sure about the randomness.That's mainly to counteract the problems that Cults usually introduce. It's not likely that a given Vampire will spawn more than 1 or maybe 2 children, but still possible.
Still not sure about the randomness.Truth. I don't like the Random effect thing. Also, the abduction equivalent of assassin bot would be nice for the aliens that aren't planning on killing anyone. Could also be nice for the Watcher (abduct, then if he's lynched, someone else comes out)
I probably won't do random. I was thinking more along these lines:How would you make the roleblock look like? Like a standard Warden?
The Vampire must feed on a normal human each night. Feeding on a player will role-block them, and players without Mind Shields will not remember the cause of the roleblock. The Vampire's identity is not known by the victim. If he fails to feed for two nights in a row, he goes comatose and is out of the game. If the vampire feeds on the same victim twice, that player will become a vampire (with the same rules).
The Vampire's goal is to be alive at the end the game with only Vampiric players living.
*cough* Remove Cultists *cough*I do not disagree with this.
I am considering making Kook and Goth abilities rather then Roles, however.
That's a kooky townie then.
Oh, and thank you Meph for making and keeping Paranormal alive for 10 games. You're a really great host, I don't care how many broken-ass roles you make.
Personally, I'm kind of surprised the scientist has managed to nab Aliens each go...since they should be the low-probability and likely the one on which they're most likely to fail, as they should be in shortest supply, and can e'en leave early!I made a judgement error. I was hoping that, if there were a Scientist, he would grab me, keep me safe for a day or two in his ship and then be killed off by the cultists after being forced to publicly claim. Didn't realise the town was doing so badly that that wouldn't be necessary...
Also, one possible game-break: What happens if the town finally realizes that scum are more likely to get the really powerful roles (same weight over less players)?Then the scum should fakeclaim powerful roles.
Then I'll move the discussion to this thread: You're clearly misguided if you believe that I'm wrong by the mere fact that a game hasn't run. I run 50,000 games in my head every second (50 Kilogameperes, as it's called), and they aren't turning out right. Sure, you will have a game turn out right once in a while, but an NK-proof SK? These vampire things? Where did the aliens go? I thought that was a main fature in this game: Aliens are third parties.And lo, the Webadict didst turn his back upon the game, forsaking it, secure in his knowledge that without his support, it will have lost all legitimacy.That's great, but this is a signup thread. If you have issues with the rules discuss them in the rules thread please. You don't need to make some sort of statement by your absence. You won't be missed.Did. Alas, if I am not to be listened to I shall make one last stand and renounce all ties. I only support the olde system, for it has undergone a change so drastic it has lost most, if not all, presence of its former self.
Perhaps you see not the consequences. I blame you not. You are but a young mind, corruptible by nature, and unable to foresee the actions as they unfold.
Ye. Ye are scum. Forsaken we, the ancients, are. Forgiven ye will never be, till time has gone full circle and be thou where I stand.
God, you're rather full of yourself.
If the new additions are shit, it will become evident, and they will be dropped from later incarnations. If not, they will be a welcome inclusion, irregardless of whether you accept that you were wrong.
tl:dr, you're on a fucking power trip, and I just bitchslapped you back to reality. Can we all grow up and get back to signing up for this game now?
Now this is where the discussion belongs. I'm glad we could move it back here.Then I'll move the discussion to this thread: You're clearly misguided if you believe that I'm wrong by the mere fact that a game hasn't run. I run 50,000 games in my head every second (50 Kilogameperes, as it's called), and they aren't turning out right. Sure, you will have a game turn out right once in a while, but an NK-proof SK? These vampire things? Where did the aliens go? I thought that was a main fature in this game: Aliens are third parties.And lo, the Webadict didst turn his back upon the game, forsaking it, secure in his knowledge that without his support, it will have lost all legitimacy.That's great, but this is a signup thread. If you have issues with the rules discuss them in the rules thread please. You don't need to make some sort of statement by your absence. You won't be missed.Did. Alas, if I am not to be listened to I shall make one last stand and renounce all ties. I only support the olde system, for it has undergone a change so drastic it has lost most, if not all, presence of its former self.
Perhaps you see not the consequences. I blame you not. You are but a young mind, corruptible by nature, and unable to foresee the actions as they unfold.
Ye. Ye are scum. Forsaken we, the ancients, are. Forgiven ye will never be, till time has gone full circle and be thou where I stand.
God, you're rather full of yourself.
If the new additions are shit, it will become evident, and they will be dropped from later incarnations. If not, they will be a welcome inclusion, irregardless of whether you accept that you were wrong.
tl:dr, you're on a fucking power trip, and I just bitchslapped you back to reality. Can we all grow up and get back to signing up for this game now?
Nah, now it's about vamping (Pun intended) the third parties up. We never really got around to fixing some of the problems the game has OH HEY LOOK AT THESE NEW ROLE!
You can't fix a problem by throwing more problems at it. Only through balancing of the previous set-up will progress be made.
I make these statements because I SEE the problems. I wouldn't have a problem with this game a lot if it didn't keep ending up with additional roles every game, many of them ridiculously overpowering some of the other roles we currently have, and then our solutions is to POWER UP those previous roles and then underpower the new role and HEY LOOK MORE ROLES!
So, go suck a lemon, kid. You'll look a whole lot smarter.
You can slap me back into reality when you get there.
Now this is where the discussion belongs. I'm glad we could move it back here.
I agree that the roles seem overpowered. NK immune SK is fairly ridiculous. Can the Monster Hunter even kill a werewolf?
Anyway, at some point the game has to be run with the new stuff, somewhere other than the alleged 50,000 times in your head. Y'know, with real people. As I stated before, if it turns to shit, it turns to shit, and the new roles get scrapped. If they don't nothing is stopping anyone from running "Old-School" Paranormal sessions.
Intervention time then?Now this is where the discussion belongs. I'm glad we could move it back here.
I agree that the roles seem overpowered. NK immune SK is fairly ridiculous. Can the Monster Hunter even kill a werewolf?
Anyway, at some point the game has to be run with the new stuff, somewhere other than the alleged 50,000 times in your head. Y'know, with real people. As I stated before, if it turns to shit, it turns to shit, and the new roles get scrapped. If they don't nothing is stopping anyone from running "Old-School" Paranormal sessions.
Yeah, but the problem is that pretty much the last 4? 5? games have been hopelessly broken due to new roles. It's really time to stop adding new stuff, then try to fix the old mess... and then we can add new things, with time. As-is, the setup just hasn't worked for a few months, now, and I think the players are getting kind of sick of it.
We COULD run old-school paranormal sessions. But why would we want to run someone else's idea? We can make our own idea and prefer to make this idea better, because it IS a good idea.Now this is where the discussion belongs. I'm glad we could move it back here.
I agree that the roles seem overpowered. NK immune SK is fairly ridiculous. Can the Monster Hunter even kill a werewolf?
Anyway, at some point the game has to be run with the new stuff, somewhere other than the alleged 50,000 times in your head. Y'know, with real people. As I stated before, if it turns to shit, it turns to shit, and the new roles get scrapped. If they don't nothing is stopping anyone from running "Old-School" Paranormal sessions.
Yeah, but the problem is that pretty much the last 4? 5? games have been hopelessly broken due to new roles. It's really time to stop adding new stuff, then try to fix the old mess... and then we can add new things, with time. As-is, the setup just hasn't worked for a few months, now, and I think the players are getting kind of sick of it.
That worked well. It made you think past just Spy vs. Spy. But it was only a Survivor.Now this is where the discussion belongs. I'm glad we could move it back here.
I agree that the roles seem overpowered. NK immune SK is fairly ridiculous. Can the Monster Hunter even kill a werewolf?
Anyway, at some point the game has to be run with the new stuff, somewhere other than the alleged 50,000 times in your head. Y'know, with real people. As I stated before, if it turns to shit, it turns to shit, and the new roles get scrapped. If they don't nothing is stopping anyone from running "Old-School" Paranormal sessions.
Yeah, but the problem is that pretty much the last 4? 5? games have been hopelessly broken due to new roles. It's really time to stop adding new stuff, then try to fix the old mess... and then we can add new things, with time. As-is, the setup just hasn't worked for a few months, now, and I think the players are getting kind of sick of it.
Intervention time then?
Paranormal Mafia, we love you, and we think you need help. Please, take the help. ;D
Seriously though, let's get some fix discussion going then. Let's start from the beginning: All Mafia's have two sides to begin with: town and scum. In this case, it was town and dopps. Then we had Aliens, with their own separate victory conditions. How well was that working?
We COULD run old-school paranormal sessions. But why would we want to run someone else's idea? We can make our own idea and prefer to make this idea better, because it IS a good idea.
But with Plasma Bomb and Personal Shield, we've got a formula for serious BOOM
Well, we obviously have a problem if people are not signing up due to the role set.
I'll look over everything tomorrow, see what I come up with.
Plasma can't harm the Exterminator anyway.Plasma -> Cop -> Exterminator.
Ninja'd by Janus; an interesting idea. Maybe we could change the Plasma Bomb's flavor to explain that; perhaps aggressive gray-goo style nanobots that morningkill indiscriminately, but can be stopped by the Personal Shield since it works at all times?
The problem with the seekers is that I have yet to actually see them fail and they duplicate the ability of the Scientist. They're neat, but not really necessary IMO.
The problem with the seekers is that I have yet to actually see them fail and they duplicate the ability of the Scientist. They're neat, but not really necessary IMO.
I dunno if the werewolf would be too overpowered... while he is immune to NKs, he has no tech, no mindshield and no operative. That means he has less votes, he has less power and no resistance to investigative roles or roleblockers.Okay, he's still not an Alien, and, given your description, he is worse.
I don't think wiping the EA's tech would be a great idea, although trimming down the power roles in general might work.
f---ing with people's roles.
Doctor?Depends on if we want Doctor/Guardian to be weighted as BEING one of the bodyguards. :I
Excess of roles instead of rebalancing of old ones was the problem. We were Microsofting - ignore the defects, look at all these shiny new features!
NK-immune SK is too much. Supercult is too much.
No lynch stoppers.
I personally don't see what's wrong with the mad scientist as is. The only real unbalancing thing about it is the possibility of the dopps using an assasin bot to win at lylo, like in Round 11. A solution is to just remove the assassin bot or up the weight in the script for dopps. Other than that, I can't think of a single instance where the mad scientist has had a huge contribution either way.
Mad Scientist will be given a higher weight for the dopps.You know what's really interesting? The Advanced Doppelganger is actually a lot better the more expensive everything is. Since it's randomly given out when there's really expensive stuff, it's a lot better because they basically take out a good role and replace themselves with a whole 'nother player.
Alien Scientist...I think is fine. We'll have to see, but I like him having to capture the other alien since it gives him a reason to care about the Exterminator and gives the Survivor good reason to keep his mouth shut.
How about a system where each alien is given a Tech Allotment (S, M, L, or a combination [Exterminator {M, L}]), and setting up the tech like this:
Personal Shield: Small Tech.
Holoform Modulator: Change this to show any action you want as well, and make it a Small/Medium Tech.
Scanner: Small Tech.
Deadman bomb: Medium Tech.
Assassin bot: Medium Tech.
Mind Control Ray: Medium Tech.
Intel: Take this out. Too much pro-town Scientist action.
Plasma Bomb: Large Tech.
Stun Orb: Small Tech.
Stun Bomb: Large/Medium Tech.
Human Tech: Pointless? I think it should be kept out.
Combat Camouflage: Equally pointless?
They can take any tech the is equal or less than their allotment size (You can make the sizes different, but this is a fair way to do it.)
I like the basic idea. Here is what I'm thinking for it:Rearranged for helpfulness.
Survivor: 1 small tech
Scientist: 1 Medium tech
Exterminator: 1 Medium + 1 Large tech
Operative: No tech
Personal Shield: Small Tech.
Holoform Modulator: Small Tech (kept as-is, I don't intend for it to effect Reporters or Telepaths)
Scanner: Small Tech.
Human Tech: Small Tech (Fits how some players want to play the Exterminator)
Stun Orb: Small Tech.
Deadman bomb: Medium Tech.
Assassin bot: Medium Tech.
Mind Control Ray: Medium Tech.
Combat Camouflage: Medium Tech (Perhaps add in a stealth suit that makes the user untrackable?)
Intel: Large Tech (so, Exterminator only, which should be ok)
Plasma Bomb: Large Tech.
Stun Bomb: Large Tech (Does not effect the user)
Thoughts?
Deadman Bomb should be small tech so Survivor can have an alternative to the PS.... Why would the Survivor WANT to die?
You could go with Combat Camoflauge and an M-class Holoform, since that'd be a good combo, but that'll require finesse to win with. Likely, you'll only be able to pull that off as... well, probably as me or Pandarsenic. Someone not likely to get killed, basically.I disagree. I think that, while you would probably have the skill to win, the fact that you are who you are would probably get you killed/ investigated sooner or later. Someone who's lower key but still pretty good might have a better chance...
Does Exterminator still get free basic Mind Shield?
Pandarsenic loses his chance to win as Exterminator again...Lol.
:(
I know. I just remembered inaluct bruoght that on himself once.And then lost it for town too.
Did he? :LI know. I just remembered inaluct bruoght that on himself once.And then lost it for town too.
- People should use their real usernames on QuickTopic. If it's intended to have mediums as anonymous, fixed temp accounts should be arranged. Otherwise player impersonation becomes a real threat.I don't this we've actually had this problem. This time around, the mediums used constant names, so that works out. I think that if anyone tried to pretend they were someone else, the impostee (is that a word?) would say something and we could root it out.
- Mad Scientist as dopp should probably be bumped up (down?) more. I'd definately value it a lot over Agent or Detective.Agreed. Rather dangerous to have assassin bots in dopp hands.
- We probably need more townies. Another game with no vanillas...I still don't think this is a problem. As long as we either have none or have a fair few we're fine and Meph designed this game to be more role heavy. This round in particular was better balanced then some of the previous rounds.
- People should use their real usernames on QuickTopic. If it's intended to have mediums as anonymous, fixed temp accounts should be arranged. Otherwise player impersonation becomes a real threat.Yeah I brought that up in the rules thread, and I agree.
- Mad Scientist as dopp should probably be bumped up (down?) more. I'd definately value it a lot over Agent or Detective.Agreed
- We probably need more townies. Another game with no vanillas...I like the role-heavy games personally. Even if the roles are minor.
- Didn't come up this game, but I'd say Observant and Vengeful Guards are worth a bit more than their current weighting.Agreed.
Also, webadict - why did you decide to get yourself lynched day 2? It really wasn't helpful for anything.Yeah I'd like to know what that was about as well.
Yeah, Dopp Assassin bot helped us win quicker, but I think we could have held our ground without it. Town had mad crazy roles too.Well, you were going down, probably along with dakarian when we worked out he couldn't kill. As for the other two... well, I guess we'll never know.
Don't be coy, you were gonna vote for me.Yeah, Dopp Assassin bot helped us win quicker, but I think we could have held our ground without it. Town had mad crazy roles too.Well, you were going down, probably along with dakarian when we worked out he couldn't kill. As for the other two... well, I guess we'll never know.
I will add this to the rules: You MUST play to win. ExKirby claiming Operative really REALLY messed things up all over the place.This is a bad idea for SOOOO many reasons...not all applicable to this game, but most. How are you going to measure intent? Is bad play suddenly "against the rules"? Refuges in audacity?
It will not aid you against...the doppelgangers!Guns seem to work well for me.
Oh, and since people wanted to see the set-up script:Thanks meph. What about the CSVs? :P
-script-
use Math::Random;I dunno why this gave me an image of your computer randomly rewriting the rules of maths for itself.
Maybe the surv. system can block anything that goes to the scientist's house.Then it'd be more than a bit better than the Body Double, and the Body Double is already really good for a tech.
Hmmm...a one-shot Roleblocker/Protector item could be fun though. Pick someone and they can't do anything that night and no one can get to them. Kind of like an Abduction, but temporary.
I kind of like that idea, it's got uses for both Town and Scum without being obviously either.
Hmmm, that name might be a bit confusing. Maybe a Phase Disruption device that puts you out of phase with this reality until morning.Temporal Riftmaker
More likely I'll give it some more generic name that lets me muck with the flavor more than that.
I rather like Time Machine. It's a similar effect to what the Time Travel Watch in iPick did.I did too, and I felt like it'd be something a Mad Scientist would have.
A mad scientist needs a quantum harmonizer.Nano Dimensional Phase Disruption Prototype
So they can put it into other player's photonic resonance chamber.
No.El Gamo de Referencio?
It was a reference to a game.
El videojeugo es Fallout Tres.No.El Gamo de Referencio?
It was a reference to a game.
Exactly, the body double requires no strategy to use.
You pick it, and you're golden. It's passive, and what's worse, it's powerful.
Hey, you know what would be cool? If you used the mind control ray on a war vet, and it turned him into a vigilante for the night.
But maybe I'm weird, would you guys take it?
I actually do consider them broken. Not overpowered broken, they're just wrong. Many of the Aliens have obvious choices that make no sense to take anything else. Why would a Survivor NOT take a Body Double? Or an Exterminator? Why would he not take a Body Double?It's not an option to either role. Personal Shield is... but I think that assassin bots/ DMBs can have interesting tactical effects (consider how ToonyMan might've done if he hadn't died to me in Para 15, for instance).
Aliens win all the time, Exterminators just can't seem to win.I didn't say exterminator.
Before I forget, I think Dopp War vets, Dopp Vigilantes, and Advanced Dopps are marked as psychic in the role matrix. There's also this duplication of the whole thing for seemingly no reason.
Maybe we should make the Exterminator able to choose between the basic Mind Shield and the ability to have its kill be Psychic instead of up-close-and-personal, with the upgraded mind shield tech becoming a normal mind shield device. Or give him a mind shield on nights he doesn't kill.
For the rest of it, I think you have some good ideas there. For Round 16 I think we'll just go with what we have and we can continue to discuss Aliens and Tech and how we want all of that to evolve.
I think it's a product of the whole "having to go out and shoot people to win" thing... they fall victim to Dopplegangers, War Veterans, Vengeful Bodyguards, etc., and they don't have the backup that the Dopples do to still pull a victory out of a bad kill. They've got the worst of both worlds, in that the town will see them as killers, the dopples see them as threats, and they have no real team to help them out.That's the whole point of a Serial Killer... but what seems like their biggest weakness (no teammates for backup) can be their biggest strength in a relatively PR light game (no teammates to connect to... see BYOR 1 where I got to the final three without any real suspicion (desu)). The general idea behind the role is that they have extra knowledge - they know there's a Serial Killer, a mafia, a town and probably nothing else. The other advantage an SK usually gets is being able to claim as a vigilante, although the paranormal SK lacks that.
That's why I think the psychic kills would be a good option. It lets the Exterminator not have to worry about losing everything in one night because something completely stupid happens. It just seemed unfair that Toony had everybody fooled and suddenly "LOL YOU HIT A DOPPELGANGER WAR VET! TOWN WINS 'CAUSE OF IT!"I think it's a product of the whole "having to go out and shoot people to win" thing... they fall victim to Dopplegangers, War Veterans, Vengeful Bodyguards, etc., and they don't have the backup that the Dopples do to still pull a victory out of a bad kill. They've got the worst of both worlds, in that the town will see them as killers, the dopples see them as threats, and they have no real team to help them out.That's the whole point of a Serial Killer... but what seems like their biggest weakness (no teammates for backup) can be their biggest strength in a relatively PR light game (no teammates to connect to... see BYOR 1 where I got to the final three without any real suspicion (desu)). The general idea behind the role is that they have extra knowledge - they know there's a Serial Killer, a mafia, a town and probably nothing else. The other advantage an SK usually gets is being able to claim as a vigilante, although the paranormal SK lacks that.
Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.
I agree.Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.
I agree.Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.
What if the requirement was at least one townie, one dopp, and one alien, but additionally, somebody on board has to be psychic?Do Mind Shields count as psychics?
Random idea for a Cutting Edge Scientist invention.I dislike the idea that the Alien is roleblocked if they aren't using their invention. So, an Exterminator and Operative wouldn't be roleblocked if they were killing unless the Exterminator was using Combat Camo. Also, this makes the Scientist impossible, as the extra THREE Days they spend being roleblocked and repairing is precious time they need for abducting other people. Perhaps this can be limited to one Day for aliens (The Day it's knocked out) and two Days for Scientists (The Day it's knocked out + 1.)
EMP Generator
Night action, affects one target player
Fires off an ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) that knocks out all advanced technology the target may own. Most roles are fairly low tech and won't notice or care, but Scientists and Aliens will find themselves without their precious tools temporarily. When it goes off that night, affected Scientists lose their inventions and get roleblocked if they tried to use one although 1-shot items are not used up. Meanwhile, targeted Aliens lose all inventions AND actions and get roleblocked that night no matter what they tried to do, although again, any 1-shot items or actions they may have tried to use are not used up. To regain their actions and inventions, affected individuals must spend 2 nights fixing their invention/ship (no, you aren't fixing your invention the night it gets EMP'd). Only inventions receiving power care about having a power surge, so broken, already EMP'd, or used 1-shot inventions do not generate messages or get broken when an EMP goes off. Because of the diagnostic nature of repair work, nights spent fixing will have the outward goal of "Find".
All inventions are affected, including any engineered mind shields. If the player had a natural mind shield and bought an advanced one, the pulse will reduce the player to a regular mind shield until it's repaired. Even if the player didn't or can't use their invention the night the EMP goes off at their place, the player will still know their invention is unusable. EMP blasts stop an Alien Scientist's ability to abduct and an Exterminator's ability to kill, but they do NOT free any abducted players! That would just be too mean to Alien Scientists. Then again, they do need a foil of some sort. Another idea is to have the whole ship go down in a big crash, killing all the prisoners on board. Hey, there's only 1 parachute and who do you think the Scientist will give it to?
Basically, I wanted to give town Scientists something they can do about dopp Military Scientist assassin bots. Even though they can spend their time repairing the invention, it'll still be out of comission for a little while and of course, lone dopps can't kill and repair. The idea to also be anti-alien came along later. The idea there is that aliens use their ships for everything, so without their ship, they have no abilities at all. I'm worried about power, of course, but I'd STILL probably take a body double if I didn't want to show off my idea so much.
I'm also thinking about an engineered plague to give to the military scientist so that not everything they have is lethal force, but I'm not sure how fun "you have the flu, you're roleblocked for the next 3 days" or whatever really is.
Arsonist is generally very powerful, but mindshields seeing it would at least give everyone else a chance to respond.If they attempt recruit scum, they fail, but the scum is still roleblocked, barring a Mind Shield.
And I presume the Hivemind wouldn't be able to recruit scum, considering how much webadict loves cults that can do so? If they try to recruit scum, what happens?
Sorry, the scum don't get roleblocked. It just fails, since Doppelgangers have a different nervous system from humans.Arsonist is generally very powerful, but mindshields seeing it would at least give everyone else a chance to respond.If they attempt recruit scum, they fail, but the scum is still roleblocked, barring a Mind Shield.
And I presume the Hivemind wouldn't be able to recruit scum, considering how much webadict loves cults that can do so? If they try to recruit scum, what happens?
Also, scum-recruiting cults are not fair and generally in bad taste.
Panda: you can't let the Exterminator pick everything. Just some things.:c
Rename Alien Scientist to Zoologist or Xenozoologist or something like that. The current name "Alien Scientist" is easily confused with the more terrestrial "Mad Scientist" flavors.I am completely for the name change. I like Zoologist better (Shorter, easier to spell correctly), but Xenozoologist works too.
New alien: Bounty Hunter
Turns out all the aliens around here are either wanted criminals or wanted by the crime bosses up in space! Either way, bounty hunters want to get rich off those fat, juicy rewards. Wins when all the other aliens in the game are dead and is still alive, at which time he leaves the game on his ship. Gets a medium tech and night kill to accomplish this task.
Tech for the intelligence scientists: Tracking bugs
2-shot, night action
These pair of tiny little signaling devices can each be covertly placed on another player (in flavor it should be placed on something the target owns to avoid issues), making your goal "Find" for that night. Then, every subsequent night, you'll automatically be told where that player went off to. When the player dies, you can recollect the bugs, ready to be used on the next night. Salvaging bugs gives you the goal of "Find" also.
Not sure if this is better or worse than the snooper bot. Slower, yes, but getting 2 tracks at once sounds good. It's good for the dopps in that they can track and kill at the same time, once they're set up. Doesn't seem so good for townies, but then again, neither are the assassin bot or mind control ray.
TODO: Make chart of all possibilities for each goal. Make sure that they have a good distribution curve. Make sure that any particular result gives a good range of fake-claims.
On the two times I've gotten to be Exterminator, I was frustrated by the odds stacked against you. I think expanding the total Tech Slots to 3 (Small, Medium, and Large) would help, since the smallest techs are the most versatile and useful for a 3rd Party... and it sucks to have to forgo all the neat Medium/Large strategic combos possible just because you know if you do, the combined might of all the investigators and killers stacked against you makes it nigh impossible to pull a win.... I agree, and to that, I'd like to add a bit to the GSC: Make it fill all of an Alien's Tech slots, but make them downgrade to the next lowest Tech (Large -> Medium -> Small -> Small.) Then, the Exterminator could have 1 Medium and 2 Smalls picked at any time, or the Survivor could pick up a Personal Shield or Deadman Bomb later, if he felt like it.
I do like some of Web's alternate Alien roles though... particularly the flavor on the Cult/Arsonist Aliens. You could even run a Paranormal with mostly Aliens, just to mix things up a bit.
Panda's the Exty, but I'll post here about my scum plans. Oh wait.Panda: you can't let the Exterminator pick everything. Just some things.:c
But I wubs Exterminators.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Once again, Webadict, you were about to fall victim to "I see no problems with this so I won't respond" syndrome, but instead I decided to stop by and mention that those are good ideas.Idea!: For the bots, you could make them report a location for each one. Which means that each bot would be indistinguishable from the other. THAT MEANS if you use two at once, you WON'T KNOW WHICH IS WHICH! That makes having two is a double-edged sword.
Yeah, I didn't like having to reclaim them, but it was necessary because otherwise it was a horribly limited snooper bot. But placing them during the day, that's good. However, that means that you can place both of them during the first day which seems too powerful for the dopps. I suppose a "no placing during the first day" rule would work, but that feels very forced and rulesly. "Only one a day" would probably be better. Alternatively, just give them three of the little fuckers and let them place as many as they want during the night.
@Webadict: I actually thought about making EMP blasts last only a single night for aliens, as well. I think that just goes to show you how good of an idea it is. I forgot about how fucked Scientists were, however, and decided Exterminators could take the hit. Thinking about it some more, neither role can realistically lose three days like that and still win.
I like your Hivemind idea. However, this is one that really has to be psychic. I think this should be the one psychic role that also requires psychically going to the target's location, as well, mostly so there's a bunch of risk involved. Mind shield blocks the attempt and informs the Hivemind, advanced mind shield tells the target that a Hivemind tried to take over their mind as well as grants access to the Hivemind chat and the Hivemind gets told their action was successful. The doubt that can form is great. Can you really trust all your drones? Does revealing your identity to your cult actually mean revealing your identity publicly? But can your drones be useful without knowing who you are? Very fun stuff. Oh, and of course dopps are immune to being dominated in such a manner. Their base desire to kill and eat is FAR more powerful than any thoughts the Hivemind can try and interject. The only other issue is if other aliens should be taken over. I vote no, but since the Exterminator is immune anyways, it's something to think about. At the very least, their immunity should be indistinguishable from regular mind shield immunology.
Localized EMP field... or that whole "curse" some people seem to have, where electronic watches cease to work around them, lights go out, and so on. Make it a Psychic ability that trumps Tech-ers, much as a Mind Shield is a Tech ability that trumps Psychics.Well, the Mind Shield is also a Psychic ability, but yeah, that works.
Query: if someone has a Psychic tech shield and uses a psychic ability on someone with a Tech Mind shield, does the mind shield count as targetting the psychic Tech Shield guy? If so, which wins?The Tech shield stops Techs. That means direct Techs, like Assassin Bots and Stun Orbs. Those things you pick at the beginning of the game. Killing someone isn't a Tech. Mind Shields aren't used against a person: They're simply used to protect the user, so no. Just like a Tech Shield wouldn't stop someone from using a Body Double.
Also, would tech shield work against, say, the Exterminator Weapon or Xenozoologist abduction, or do they also have less... efficient means of abduction/slaughtering? If so, would special flavor or any game-changing results occur?
All the scientist variants need to be able to buy a tech shield or advanced tech shield if they already have on. Symmetry is good. Advanced means that the player will think their tech worked. Regular tech shields don't use up 1-shot techs, but advanced tech shields do.Exterminator Tech shield vs. Stunbomb = Yay, free kill!
Not sure how to make most of the techs fail in a way that makes sense, though.
Precisely.All the scientist variants need to be able to buy a tech shield or advanced tech shield if they already have on. Symmetry is good. Advanced means that the player will think their tech worked. Regular tech shields don't use up 1-shot techs, but advanced tech shields do.Exterminator Tech shield vs. Stunbomb = Yay, free kill!
Not sure how to make most of the techs fail in a way that makes sense, though.
Speaking of which, Exterminators should be able to choose between starting with a tech shield or a mind shield.I like this. Is there anything about this that seems unbalanced?
Also, I forgot that kook is also an ability, so there's that.
Tech shields are good against Aliens, Mad scientists?Speaking of which, Exterminators should be able to choose between starting with a tech shield or a mind shield.I like this. Is there anything about this that seems unbalanced?
Also, I forgot that kook is also an ability, so there's that.
Yes, but psi powers don't kill you on their own.It's those little Assassin Bots that'll do it.
I'm cool with closed aliens.
And I'll play Para 17.
Yeah, I think Paranormal 17 will be next.I like open setups. Then it's about strategy and metal prowess versus surprise attacks.
It'll still be mostly open. Unless people *really* don't want me to make the aliens closed. I just thought it'd make things a bit more exciting.
The regular Paranormal game does seem quite... breakable, though. The limited roles combined with role weightings often let you pretty much know for sure who the scum are (there's also the possibility for day one MC's breaking the game).
Perhaps I should just excise all of the weight lists. That, with the tweaking I'm going to do, might remove some of the "You are obviously X because of the possible weights available".Revamp them and don't reveal them would probably be the best way.
*cough* Dopp Vig *cough*
Has it ever happened?We've never tried it, but I think some of the more role heavy games could've been (dopps would be screwed by crossfiring roles or triple claims).
I mean have we collectively ever figured out the roles based on the weightings using a MC? I think it's come close a few times, but each time it's either been a bit off or the scum have lied and that threw the calculations off.Yes - you completely nailed me as an Advanced Doppelganger in one of the most recent ones. Then ignored it :P.
Also, I'd remove the limit of 2 of the same role per side. I really don't like "Oh, three reporter claims, at least one is a dopp" and I certainly like that less than "Hey, the town consists of 10 reporters!"
I would recommend tweaking the weight tables a little bit after each game. It doesn't have to be major revisions or even based on anything, the idea being that if you change them only rarely, the experienced players might start to get a feel for how rare certain roles are, which has the same effect as making the weights known. It's also fun to make a supposedly rare role oddly common just to screw with everyone.
Also, I'd remove the limit of 2 of the same role per side. I really don't like "Oh, three reporter claims, at least one is a dopp" and I certainly like that less than "Hey, the town consists of 10 reporters!"
I would recommend tweaking the weight tables a little bit after each game. It doesn't have to be major revisions or even based on anything, the idea being that if you change them only rarely, the experienced players might start to get a feel for how rare certain roles are, which has the same effect as making the weights known. It's also fun to make a supposedly rare role oddly common just to screw with everyone.
Also, I'd remove the limit of 2 of the same role per side. I really don't like "Oh, three reporter claims, at least one is a dopp" and I certainly like that less than "Hey, the town consists of 10 reporters!"
Hmm. Good ideas. I'll just have to make sure we don't have a whole bunch of War Vets again...
Agreed. That game was retarded. removing the limit of 2 per role per side may require occasional hand-alteration but I think it'll be good to do.It had Org claiming doc though, which was one of the greatest things.
No one gives me credit for that.If you did it you'd get lynched.
Hmm. Yeah, Quicktopic would probably be too much for them. But I like that they're a Jester-Cult that's mostly pro-town. Except that they have to kill off town to spread.Yeah. I think that cult would work. Plus, it gives another alien to work with.
Yeah, it's pretty lame. Maybe just go for Victim as a name?
Oh, the actual Jester role (Victim) was a town role, not alien. But with the Spore Spreaders I don't think it's necessary, since having any sort of Jester role in the game serves the main purpose of allowing for additional gambits.Well, I figured all third parties should be aliens since this is paranormal. But, it'd be funnier to have an alien activist then a depressed human.
Oh, the actual Jester role (Victim) was a town role, not alien. But with the Spore Spreaders I don't think it's necessary, since having any sort of Jester role in the game serves the main purpose of allowing for additional gambits.Well, I figured all third parties should be aliens since this is paranormal. But, it'd be funnier to have an alien activist then a depressed human.
Spore spreader has no real need to play as anything but a Townie.
Ideas:No on the first one. You're making the game into some sort of mystery gambit instead of a mafia game. The point of the deadman bomb is that it ONLY HELPS THE EXTERMINATOR. He has to kill everyone, so WHY would any other alien want it? The Survivor can't use it except for a threat. The Operative can't choose it. The Zoologist doesn't want it.
Have the Deadman Bomb block your roleflip, too. It might encourage certain players to take one if they have an Operative and either keep it for themselves or pass it on. Aliens can still give their techs away, right? Also, there should be some kind of poison that aliens can get. Exterminators might take the Deadman and poison and try to live til the end of the game so they can kill everyone left with the poison, bomb, and the nightkill. Or just continue with the necessary body double if they're smart. I'd make it a day poison and completely get rid of the Assassin Bot. In fact, I'd do the same to the Scientist version as well since the Scientist Assassin Bot is the really game-breaking one.
Operatives should be able to help out any alien, not just Exterminators. I think I might of brought this up before, but I really dislike the "Oh shit, Operative roleflip, there's an Exterminator running around" moments since they add undesirable certainty to the game. Heck, why not allow Operatives to help out any player at all? Then we have to decide if the Op's target knows if he or she has an Op helping him or her out. There's also the problem of whether the Operative should know his or her target's win-con or not. I vote no since figuring it out is half the fun, but I understand some people dislike not knowing what they should be doing. Quick note: Operative loyalty does not continue if the target's race changes, so if the target is a dopp or changes into another race somehow, the Operative wins when the Dopps are dead (or wins by surviving, either one works) although the Operative is never told if or when this happens.
Allow more than one Exterminator per game. Maybe the other aliens too, although a game with 3 Survivors would suuuuuuuck, so possibly 2 max on all of them with the second being extra weighted? This could be done quite simply in the role list by keeping the Exterminator entry as-is and adding a second Exterminator entry that requires the first one to exist to be generated. The "requires another role to exist" roles never generated very often.
No on the first one. You're making the game into some sort of mystery gambit instead of a mafia game. The point of the deadman bomb is that it ONLY HELPS THE EXTERMINATOR. He has to kill everyone, so WHY would any other alien want it? The Survivor can't use it except for a threat. The Operative can't choose it. The Zoologist doesn't want it.
Now, I believe you're talking about the Assassin Bot with a Deadman Bomb to win the game. Highly unlikely but possible. But, why get rid of the Assassin Bot and replace it... with a poison... that is exactly the same? Why would anyone want that? Flavor reasons, or what? The Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking. It's just slightly more powerful than it's given credit for.
Maybe on the second one. The Exterminator has a tough time as it is, but making an Operative not indicative of an Exterminator might work. However, you'd have to watch out, because an Operative + Survivor team is essentially 2 extra Dopps, and an Operative + Zoologist team is pretty useless as well, as the Zoologist already has a high win-rate.
However, making it help any role is a straight-up no. Town could have a confirmed Townie pair on their side and the Dopps get an extra partner. Plus, the alien theme doesn't fit well with that.
A probably not on the third one. Having several of any one alien is fairly anti-Town in all instances. 2 Exterminators might be the only case where the Dopps are equally in trouble. 2 Survivors makes the game lean heavily toward the Dopps. And 2 Zoologists? NO. 2 Operatives is laughable, so that's why I'm leaning no on that.
I fail to see how gambits or increasing options are bad. Alien gambits were usually the best part of Paranormal. Your other point that only the Exterminator has any reason to take the bomb is actually a major issue. If only the Exterminator has any reason to actually take the Deadman Bomb, it should either be retooled into something every alien could use, removed entirely, or given to the Exterminator for free. What's the point of having options if everybody chooses the same thing over and over? On the other hand, if a whole new batch of aliens show up and/or the Operative gets a tech choice (he really should, turn his current abilities into a tech, I know I've brought this up recently), I'd suggest keeping things as-is and seeing what happens.The no roleflipping... is never good in a game like Paranormal. I don't even think that the AD should have a Townie roleflip because it's a straight-up lie followed by a screw you players. It's simply anti-everyone else. It only helps their team. And while you might think that that is oh so incredibly helpful it really isn't because the alien is dead now. Congratulations on making our jobs more difficult. Because this game is totally all about lack of information and taking guesses instead of logically deducing targets. My bad.
Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking, but Assassin Bot sure as fuck is. That invention severely warps the format. You're a Military Mad Scientist, what invention do you pick? Spoiler alert: you pick Assassin Bot or gimp yourself. Dopp? Keep the Scientist alive til lylo to insta-win. Town? Counter a mafia Assassin Bot, get a free lynch if the town decides to lynch you, or confirm yourself at lylo while killing your prime suspect off.Incorrect again. The Assassin Bot is a WELL-KNOWN and failure prone Dopp tool. It's not coming out of nowhere or anything. We knew it was a possibility. Now, what we might need are a couple of counters (Tech Shield, EMP, etc.) but the device itself is completely legal and sound in use.
But ok, the alien version is probably fine. Let him keep the Assassin Bot. I'm just a fan of alien-scientist invention symmetry, but apparently nobody else is so it doesn't matter. This is one case where it makes sense to empower the alien version.
I forgot Paranormal is pretty much the only free-PM game we play here and the ramifications of free-PMing with information. If the Operative is restricted to aliens, I'd be very selective about what aliens he can help out. Right now I'd say only the Exterminator should get it, although if the Zoologist gets tweaked to be harder he totally deserves some Operative love. Maybe allow Ops on all aliens if there's a Zoologist-restricted tech that just gives you the name of another alien in the setup or tells you there are no other aliens if that's the case. This would be so that an Exterminator or Survivor could claim Operative if he wanted to for whatever reason. It's only an issue if you can trust an Operative claim, so add uncertainty and watch the players WIFOM themselves into thinking the Op is a fakeclaiming Exterminator.Meh. The Zoologist is perfectly fine, as is. He's the perfect combination of anti-Town and anti-scum, like the Exterminator, though he could probably use less Tech. You also take for granted the amount of WIFOM that a person can successfully dish out. And that's not very. I'd say that Solifuge is the best example by managing to get almost everyone turned against the Child and that took him three other people, several days of work and PMing. Do you really think people are going to see "Operative" and not think "lynch!"?
Alright, fine, the Operative should only know their target's name, not role or race. Target isn't told about their Operative's assistance. If the target's a dopp, Operative wins with town. Claiming instantly to your target makes no sense because the player is either a dopp and going to trick you or a townie and is going to do nothing differently. You act as though saying "I'm an Operative to Player X" would confirm the Operative to be real (could be an Exterminator with Intel, could be a ballsy Dopp) and confirm Player X is actually town (could be a dopp even if Operative is telling the truth, could be a anything if the Operative is lying or faking).Obvious flaw: Operative ISN'T TRYING TO HELP THE PERSON ANYMORE. Plus, with a one-shot inspect and kill, congratulations Town.
This is what role weights are for. I'm not suggesting making every game Roswell, I'm just saying allow the script to rarely spit out balanced surprising setups. If they can't be balanced no matter what, that's one thing which may be true, but don't just go "2 Zoologists? NO." and expect me to know why that's bad. Two of the little bastards sounds fun to me depending on what happens if one abducts the other. Two Survivors sounds tough to balance. but it might be doable with some heavy pro-town roles. The point isn't to play with two of them in any actual games, the point is to have the option open so there's as many claims as possible open at all times.Right. Here's how 2 Zoologists works out:
SKs are actually very easy to find from the dopp perspective. I nailed Solifuge using dopp-knowledge in the last (or last but one? I forget).I meant good SKs.
Good sir, you wound me.
Also, I haven't been an Exterminator in a long time. You've got the wrong man!
Do Mr Spores lose their powers when converted?
Dun dun duuuuuun!Do Mr Spores lose their powers when converted?
Anyone converted by a Spore becomes a pure Spore Spreader, losing all abilities they had before.
However, Advanced Anti-Tech Fields are pretty tough to implement though, aren't they?
Morningkill: A morning kill happens between the day and night phase, and cannot be prevented by abilities that prevent night kills. (Such as the Guardian)
It's Morning. You'd declare that you were using the item as your Night Action and they'd die AFTER all of the night actions had occurred. So it's not as powerful as before.
Could they just claim once one spore spreader is down? I don't see any reason anyone would want them dead.
Could they just claim once one spore spreader is down? I don't see any reason anyone would want them dead.If you claim you get night killed and don't get to spread your spore, if I understand it correctly. You want to be the last ones standing.
Dopps want them dead same as any other town, really. As do exterminators. And a Spore Spreader has no ability to stop a night kill, so it'd be a 'safe' kill, assuming that it wasn't a trick of some sort.So... a potential scum ally claims, and you kill them?
So, Paranormal 17 just finished. I have some questions, hypothetical situations and thoughts for future ones (may there be many):
1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both? In P17's mass claim, only Leafsnail claimed a Mind shield, in general, why wouldn't the exterminator also claim one as a randomly given ability every time, along with his (non-psychic) fakeclaim, as long as he didn't have an advanced one? (In particular, Toaster, why didn't you? It wouldn't have fingered you as the Ext, and the claim would have let you go after Kamina instead of me.)
2. Tech: I've not played as Exterminator team; does the Ext know if he has an Op before he has to finalise his tech choices? If he does have an Op, why wouldn't he always ask the Op to get an anti-tech shield, and give it to him? That'd make him immune to most special attacks, and at least one would be safe to claim.
3. Meph hinted that, although at the moment a detective gets "Agent Operative" and "Exterminator Operative" as roles for those who have them, in the future he may just get "Operative"; it makes things harder for the detective. On the other hand, the scanner tech would continue to get the full result, yes? This would be compatible with how it gets now both race and role in other cases. Also, the Ext knows who his Op is, yes? But does the Agent? Or only if he's not Dopp, or never?
4. A question left unanswered in the thread: does the Exterminator team win condition mandate that any Alien Survivors be dead, or can a situation of 2 townies vs. Ext-Op+Survivor result in an alien win? How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?
5. Meph hinted, after the "chains flavour" debacle, that "it gave him an idea" for an alien tech. First: please don't, the poor warden's life is tough as it is; but second, if you must, shouldn't it be incorporated into the Combat Camo functionality?
6. Speaking of Camo, this was touched in scumchat: if the Ext targets his standard NK on someone with anti-tech field, then the camo would fail to mask the kill, yes? And finally, just to confirm what was said in P17, if camo was taken, it could mask kills made by both Ext and Op, whether standard NK or tech, all in the same night, right? And the camo-user can select at the time whether to mask his kill or not, yes?
7. While I understand the rationale behind the new "morning-kill" assassin bots, now that I've seen them in action I have to say I liked them better before. Sure, game balance is not my strong point, but day kills were way more dramatic before, increased tension substantially (a good thing), and as Leafsnail pointed out, they were a way for an Exty to keep a Survivor in line following orders. I really missed the "IN YO' FACE" factor of older games I've read.
8. Tech vs. Psychic: a psychic doesn't leave his home to do his thing, so he's safe from sentry guns/PWVs/guards; tech is remote as well, and likewise safe, yes? sentry guns/PWVs/guards don't prevent bot kills, stun orbs, scanners, and so on, do they? What is the difference with regards to night action claims? Is it that the tech user leaves his home (but doesn't enter the target's), and therefore can be seen by a reporter? Any other difference?
9. Tech and Agents: The Ext and Ext-Op can share tech, but this is not the case for the Agent and Agent-Op, right? Only the Agent-Op gets tech, the Agent gets none beyond his investigative power, no tech. I read wuba's musings on deadchat about whether the Agent-Op gets too much tech at the moment or not; I don't recall Agent-Op details from older games, but I have to say I like this incarnation; his tech being available gives it a convincing impression that he's the Ext-Op (and indeed I'd have tried to lynch Dariush for it had the game gone on). Again, balance is not really my thing, so I don't know how much tech they should get, but I think it's good that they do.
It occurs to me that Sentry Guns would be great IF you can reliably draw a kill.
1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both?Anyone can randomly have either a mind shield, anti-tech field, or Kook.
The Scanner gets full results, yes, since it's a one-shot tech item. Of course, it won't work properly against an Anti-Tech field.
4. [...]How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?In that last scenario, the town would still have to lynch someone that day.
7. While I understand the rationale behind the new "morning-kill" assassin bots, now that I've seen them in action I have to say I liked them better before. Sure, game balance is not my strong point, but day kills were way more dramatic before, increased tension substantially (a good thing), and as Leafsnail pointed out, they were a way for an Exty to keep a Survivor in line following orders. I really missed the "IN YO' FACE" factor of older games I've read.I like it better too, but it's just WAY more powerful as a day-kill. Too powerful for a Mad Scientist tech, at least. I might make the Alien version stronger, though.
As it is, I still have to rework the Military Scientist a bit. No one ever takes Sentry Guns, which shows how unbalanced it is.
Agent and Agent Operative are on the same side, but they're not a specific team. [...] Actually, there isn't any reason an Agent Operative couldn't share tech with the Agent once he makes contact.
Let's take it further and say they lynch the survivor, and neither the townie nor the Op have any kills or tech left; it's just 1 vs. 1, without a way to kill each other. Who wins?According to the letter of the law, the Exterminator side loses, as not all non exterminator players are dead. Then again, the town also loses.
Since we're on the topic, different scenario: two townies vs. the Exterminator. The townies have found him out and vote to lynch him, but he has a Deadman Bomb. He is lynched, but the bomb takes out both townies. Scorched Earth! Who wins?According to the letter, the Exterminator. His wincon doesn't seem to require his own survival.
Stun Bomb: If it takes the Alien's action for the night, it seems kind of useless. It may not affect the user, but anyone using it can't do anything else. I always pictured it as a great choice for the Xenozoologist, who can get one free night to ply his trade. If you want to keep it as using up the action, I suggest one change: allow the user to selectively exclude people from its effects, possibly with a cap of one exclusion. That'd make it a good choice for both operatives, allowing either a free kill or free inspection.Good point. It was originally made for the Watcher, who didn't do anything at night anyway. Might need to tweak it a bit.
Holoform modulator: I'd just like a clarification on this one: do you have to specify the night it's used, or is it more like something you set ahead of time and it triggers when needed? If the former, perhaps the advanced form could act as the latter, increasing its power versus the basic version.
I'd scrap the Adv. Holoform Modulator and add a Large tech "Permanent Holoform Modulator". I think you can see where this is going. If you do keep the Adv. Holoform, at the very least make it so even Scanners get fooled by Adv. Holoforms.
Thanks Meph for the answers. A couple of follow ups, if I may:Correct.1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both?Anyone can randomly have either a mind shield, anti-tech field, or Kook.
I read that as meaning that a Kook can never have a natural mindshield or techfield, right?
They would get a generic townsperson result.The Scanner gets full results, yes, since it's a one-shot tech item. Of course, it won't work properly against an Anti-Tech field.
If I have an advanced anti-tech field, and am targeted by a scanner, they should get a misleading result and use up the item, yes? Would they get "no role", or would I get the chance of saying what would be reported (as with a holoform modulator) or something else?
4. [...]How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?In that last scenario, the town would still have to lynch someone that day.
Let's take it further and say they lynch the survivor, and neither the townie nor the Op have any kills or tech left; it's just 1 vs. 1, without a way to kill each other. Who wins?
Since we're on the topic, different scenario: two townies vs. the Exterminator. The townies have found him out and vote to lynch him, but he has a Deadman Bomb. He is lynched, but the bomb takes out both townies. Scorched Earth! Who wins?
Agent and Agent Operative are on the same side, but they're not a specific team. [...] Actually, there isn't any reason an Agent Operative couldn't share tech with the Agent once he makes contact.
If you're going to do that, why not just let any alien share any tech? That could open up several interesting possibilities. The Hivemind normally wouldn't want to take any action-using items, but he could give it to his first convert, letting him be his own personal operative. Perhaps possibilities of cutting deals could open up with exchanging tech for support on a lynch, or NK protection, or covering a lie for someone else.
On that note, does a Hivemind convert lose any powers he had?
I've decided to add a nice ability to the Sentry Guns. They can now be programmed with Facial Recognition that allows the Scientist to put people on a 'safe list'.
Who is this Watcher of whom you speak? I don't see it in the role list... only one that watches seems to be the reporter, and he doesn't get tech. Though the Kook description does say "The Kook also talks to himself a lot, and will always show up to a Watcher as having communicated with someone that day." Does this refer to the reporter watching the Kook, or to the other Watcher you mention?QuoteStun Bomb: [...]Good point. It was originally made for the Watcher, who didn't do anything at night anyway. Might need to tweak it a bit.
I like the permanent one. I don't understand how the advanced one would trick everyone, though. Do you mean everyone who targeted him on the one night it is used? (not many inspections/scans overlap on the same night, I'd think); or maybe that it trumps the scanner tech/others?QuoteHoloform modulator:[...]Yeah, it is currently an as-needed item. I probably won't change the normal one. Making the Advanced one trick EVERYONE is probably a good idea. Might also add in a Permanant Holoform as well. Which is just the basic one that never goes away.
I've decided to add a nice ability to the Sentry Guns. They can now be programmed with Facial Recognition that allows the Scientist to put people on a 'safe list'.Yeah, I also like this a lot, particularly for the late game. It would remain one-shot, though, yes? I'd still like it better if two-shot, but that may be too much.
Who is this Watcher of whom you speak? I don't see it in the role list... only one that watches seems to be the reporter, and he doesn't get tech. Though the Kook description does say "The Kook also talks to himself a lot, and will always show up to a Watcher as having communicated with someone that day." Does this refer to the reporter watching the Kook, or to the other Watcher you mention?QuoteStun Bomb: [...]Good point. It was originally made for the Watcher, who didn't do anything at night anyway. Might need to tweak it a bit.
I like the permanent one. I don't understand how the advanced one would trick everyone, though. Do you mean everyone who targeted him on the one night it is used? (not many inspections/scans overlap on the same night, I'd think); or maybe that it trumps the scanner tech/others?QuoteHoloform modulator:[...]Yeah, it is currently an as-needed item. I probably won't change the normal one. Making the Advanced one trick EVERYONE is probably a good idea. Might also add in a Permanant Holoform as well. Which is just the basic one that never goes away.
I've decided to add a nice ability to the Sentry Guns. They can now be programmed with Facial Recognition that allows the Scientist to put people on a 'safe list'.Yeah, I also like this a lot, particularly for the late game. It would remain one-shot, though, yes? I'd still like it better if two-shot, but that may be too much.
1. If a spore-spreader is lynched, up to two townies get turned into spore-spreaders. Do they know each other's identity? Is there any way for a spore-spreader "masonry" to be formed? Since they win if the town wins, they are reasonably town-friendly to be called masons, yes? Can they make a quicktopic mason chat (whether by being informed or deducing each other's identity)?They don't know the other's identity, no. I suppose they could tell people that they're a spore spreader and hope they told the right people, but it's not automatic or anything. Anyone can make a quicktopic if they want, they just have to send me the link.
2. If a spore-spreader is targeted by a NK, the killer is infected only if he's human. That means only a Vig, yes? Is any other human able to NK a SS? Not a PWV/Sentry guns, since the SS can't visit them... On this note: if an assassin bot hits a SS, he doesn't get infected, yes? If dopp/alien, he's immune, if Mad Scientist, he's not present...
3. A Hivemind is likewise restricted to humans as targets; do they get a cult-chat? Know each other?
4. The Zoologist needs to get a dopp, an alien, and two townies (psychic and non) to win; can he still win if the game rolled no psychics? or if all psychics are dead? Does a townie with a natural mindshield count as a psychic for this? How about a tech-based mindshield built by a MS?
5. Can we assume for the Bastard Paranormal that the previously discussed "all aliens can share tech at will" rule is active?
Natural mind shield or anti-tech field count as psychic. Tech based ones do not.OK, are the Mad Scientist's MS/ATF the only human tech-based shields? The rules say Mad Scientists "can build them", but I assumed it meant they have the same chance as anyone else to roll for one or not; it's just that if, say, a reporter, rolls a mindshield, it's natural and he's psychic, but if a Mad Scientist rolls one, it's tech-based and he's not... am I reading this right?
Quote5. Can we assume for the Bastard Paranormal that the previously discussed "all aliens can share tech at will" rule is active?You can assume for the Bastard Paranormal that all rules are in force...except for specific exceptions that I won't tell you about.
A Mad Scientist can roll a natural Mind Shield/Anti Tech Field. He can also choose to build one as his tech choice if he doesn't start with a natural one.
Um... Here's a standard question: Agent Op scans Agent on First Night. If he's a Dopp, it's a free lynch. If he's a Human, he has about a 1% chance to be turned into a Dopp later. Either way, it's either a freelynch or masons.
It's kinda like the Disciple of Truth.
Um... Here's a standard question: Agent Op scans Agent on First Night. If he's a Dopp, it's a free lynch. If he's a Human, he has about a 1% chance to be turned into a Dopp later. Either way, it's either a freelynch or masons.
It's kinda like the Disciple of Truth.
Um... Here's a standard question: Agent Op scans Agent on First Night. If he's a Dopp, it's a free lynch [only if his claim is believed!]. If he's a Human, he has about a 1% chance to be turned into a Dopp later. Either way, it's either a freelynch or masons.Hmmm. I could have both Operatives only flip Operative on death. That would prevent the whole 'confirmed' human aspect, since the town now needs to worry about it being an Exterminator cover instead.
It's kinda like the Disciple of Truth.
Dopp Agent, of course. Human Agent...not so much.
But, yes, part of the Power of the Agent Operative is that they get a targeted scan on a known Agent (assuming they take a scanner, which is pretty much a given). Which, despite being a one-shot ability, is pretty powerful. I built that fact into the weight for it.
Dopp Agent, of course. Human Agent...not so much.
But, yes, part of the Power of the Agent Operative is that they get a targeted scan on a known Agent (assuming they take a scanner, which is pretty much a given). Which, despite being a one-shot ability, is pretty powerful. I built that fact into the weight for it.
Why not? What fooled the scanner? A Dopp Agent can't get an Advanced Anti-tech Shield or Advanced Holoform Modulator. If an Agent Op says that player X is a Dopp and then dies, player X is a guaranteed Dopp. Same thing if that player is town.
Why not? What fooled the scanner? A Dopp Agent can't get an Advanced Anti-tech Shield or Advanced Holoform Modulator. If an Agent Op says that player X is a Dopp and then dies, player X is a guaranteed Dopp. Same thing if that player is town.
Say an AT-fielded (or dopp) guard protects a regular human. The attempt would fail- would you know that there was interference? It could mistakenly lead you to think the original target was invalid.
Then guards with an anti-tech field would need extra weight if there's a Hivemind in the game.
As suggested, the psychic version is much, much better than the tech version. Possibility of 2 or 3 conversion in exchange for 1 guaranteed one? Yeah, I'll take the guarantee every time. Sometimes you'll go the whole game with no night actions of any sort done on you.This is what made me think that. I blame Mr.Person.
Can the script simply give the dopps one less teammate if they get a vig, or is the dopp count fairly static?
Does the Spore Spreader also have a survivor wincon, or must he be lynched? Thematically, it'd seem that surviving would be fine, but considering gameplay that might make the role too easy. Otherwise, I like the change. Assuming the Spreader gets lynched, does he still win if neither carrier lives? If so, it's like an oddball combo of jester, survivor, and cult in a good way.
Dopp Berserker? Gets a one shot kill, but loses vote (or some other penalty) next day? Could make it bypass protection for fun.
I like the idea of varied goals for the Xenozoologist. Right now, they can negotiate with the town fairly easily. Giving them the possibility of more anti-town goals could make that a harder prospect.
The dopps already have the option of an unblockable one shot nightkill, it's called a Military Scientist. And it's already more useful because it doesn't automatically implicate the dopps.
I think that'd help balance, though the fact that the number of dopps are known might be a giveaway. I understand if it's a lot of work, but say for a 16 player game, 5 wimp dopps or 3 super dopps would be an interesting change, though the surprise is lost if the scum count is announced. See Vote Mafia 7- everyone thought there were three scum, but in reality there were two very strong scum.I think 5 dopps out of 16 players would probably win easily even if they were all vanilla. Town would have to get 5 lynches right out of 7. The scum team does get much stronger with each additional member (even huge, 20+ games never really have more than 5 on one team).
Vigs are by definition a town-sided killing role. Mafia has already got one. So, I'm voting for the all-vigs-are-town. To make it less unfair, you could make flavors of vig kill be the same as dopp or exty kill.
For the Spore Spreader, I'm thinking something like this:I actually like the spore spreaders as they are now. Maybe at most change their wincon to be a general survivor (only one SS alive needed for all to win), not winning just with a town victory (it doesn't make much sense for them winning with all humans dead, but flavour could be that they remain dormant in the town waiting for the next batch of settlers or something).
The actual Spore Spreader is a Jester. They need to get lynched to activate their spores. (Night kills no longer trigger it) Two random players of any race are then converted into Spore Carriers. The carriers are Survivors who win if either of them makes it to the end. Carriers are not far enough along in the spore process yet to trigger the spores and need to survive to get to that point. Not sure if the carriers would keep their roles or not.
I'm also thinking of adding in another dopp killing role. Less powerful than the Vig and it would use the regular dopp kill flavor. Something to make the Exterminator's camo useful for actually doing a dopp-style kill. Right now that screams Exterminator just as much as a plasma kill does. Might be a one-shot kill or something like that.I'm very much in favour. Flavour for it could be fun... like a dopp-equivalent of a pet dog, who is unleashed and goes to kill on his own, then dies or wanders off...
Can the script simply give the dopps one less teammate if they get a vig, or is the dopp count fairly static?I don't think that'd work. You could make a guess then if the dopps have a vig based on the number of pods in the opening flavour.
Thoughts? I'd like to have at least 1 neutral scientist, 1 pro-town and 1 anti-town. With no way to determine what the scientist is really doing it'll make deals much harder.
Note that the proposed change removes the spread effect past the initial SS. The carriers become survivors but can't infect anyone themselves.Yeah, I'm not a fan of this. I like the potential snow-ball effect of multiple waves of infection. But yeah, I get your point about it being a horrible jester and horrible for town as well... but I still like them. With a bit of tweaking, after a couple of lucky days it could be an outright Dopps vs. Spore Spreaders fight only! With allies and stuff! It sounds like fun, I say.
The idea of the Carrier becoming an ally-survivor of whatever side they were part of is interesting, though, since a dopp-ally won't betray them but is still slightly countering the power of the team by not being willing to die for them.I can get behind this, yes. Ally is better than threat of modkill. But then if they get lynched, I'd still like it if they could spread the infection further.
Kooks are also not at all guaranteed. We've had a fair number of them show up, but I've had quite a few balance tests where they don't show up at all. Might be worth adding some more abilities to help round things out, though. I'll have to ponder it. Or just not take set-ups that include kooks quite as often.Oh I'd like so much to quote you on this every game, when people start wetting themselves over every kook must claim RIGHT NOW or be scum foreveeeer! or there has always been at least one kook; there will always be at least one kook!
Extend day to 72 hours, change extension to 48 hours, and still allow only 2 extensions. This'll raise the max length of a day by 3 days, still prevent infinite-extend days, and make it less likely to waste an entire extension. I might be willing to do 48 hour initial day if we have 48 hour extension.
IMO make day 72-hour and allow one 24-hour extension.
Edit: you forgot 'other, explain in thread' variant in poll. :)
I really don't think that three more RL days is that bad, especially if discussion is active. You don't have to ask for a second extension, remember, and there's always a shorten.Three days is a bit under the current maximum limit. And lurkers will still lurk knowing that they have the extension, thus requiring other people to use this extension.
Dariush: What about this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44270.0)?That game happened almost two years ago. Computers were slower back then...
Oh hey, we've got a Paranormal discussion thread? Nice.Hypnotizer seems poorly placed in Paranormal.
Meph, maybe you should add some new roles? The current setup is kinda old. My suggestions:
Hypnotizer: basically a redirect. If the target doesn't have an action, it simply visits the target without doing anything.
Stasis: either a scientist (replaces Psychic Pulser for CES) or an alien item that makes the target untargetable, but unable to do anything for a night and a day.
Guerilla: anti-exterminator (maybe) alien. Each night can summon a one-use item that gives one of the following effects: roleblock, kill, protect, inspect, redirect. Can use any amount of items per night, but not on the same night they were summoned.
Planewalker: an 'untrackable' modifier. Maybe a psychic role that can give this modifier to the target for the night.
Maybe aliens with lyncher/watcher wincons?...
Also, a fourth race with some unique mechanic would be greatly appreciated. :)
And while I'm here: has anybody ever used Psychic Pulser in the history of Paranormal? It seems just plain pointless when compared to mind control and especially body double.
Hypnotizer seems poorly placed in Paranormal.Uh. We have a guy who can bind people with invisible chains over distance and another guy who can sense their intentions. How come a hypnotizer is poorly placed?
Guerrilla is bad, and makes the hardest role even harder.Actually, throw away the 'anti-exterminator' part (I admit that I didn't think that through). I was planning to propose another role that has to be done something to by guerilla, but decided that the result was too bulky. However, the idea of craftable items seemed rather good, so I kept that.
As for a fourth race... Meh. Doesn't seem like there's much of a point. If you can come up with one, that's probably fine. I mean, what's wrong with that? But, asking Meph to come up with it misses a bit of the point with this thread.Actually, I wanted to learn what Meph thinks on the point. No point in coming up with one if he suddenly reveals that he completely thought the setting through and there's only place for humans, dopps and aliens.
I think if you modified Planewalker to only allow non-kill actions, then you might have a good idea. But, then there'd also be a need of a Psychic Tracker.Yep, that's even better. Maybe add the item crafting system from Guerilla, make him town and a complete role instead of a role modifier?..
Well, hypnotism is something that requires physical interaction with the victim. However, you're treating it as a psychic action. Hence, it's poorly placed.Hypnotizer seems poorly placed in Paranormal.Uh. We have a guy who can bind people with invisible chains over distance and another guy who can sense their intentions. How come a hypnotizer is poorly placed?Guerrilla is bad, and makes the hardest role even harder.Actually, throw away the 'anti-exterminator' part (I admit that I didn't think that through). I was planning to propose another role that has to be done something to by guerilla, but decided that the result was too bulky. However, the idea of craftable items seemed rather good, so I kept that.As for a fourth race... Meh. Doesn't seem like there's much of a point. If you can come up with one, that's probably fine. I mean, what's wrong with that? But, asking Meph to come up with it misses a bit of the point with this thread.Actually, I wanted to learn what Meph thinks on the point. No point in coming up with one if he suddenly reveals that he completely thought the setting through and there's only place for humans, dopps and aliens.I think if you modified Planewalker to only allow non-kill actions, then you might have a good idea. But, then there'd also be a need of a Psychic Tracker.Yep, that's even better. Maybe add the item crafting system from Guerilla, make him town and a complete role instead of a role modifier?..
Well, hypnotism is something that requires physical interaction with the victim.And psyyyychically wrapping someone in invisible chains is just plain impossible.
As for the guerrilla, I'd nix the idea. It might seem fun, but it's more like you'd simply just make the same item over and over. You're better off with all the items premade, but even then... it doesn't have a place other than as an Alien. But, what would the goal be? If you don't have that planned out, the Alien can't be played well. Plus, the Operative plays similar to this.Why not town? We've already got scientists who can manufacture snooper bots, after all. Maybe we can even ditch the killing item, or maybe put restrictions on the number of items of each kind that can be manufactured.
The point is a hypnotist is the wrong occupation title for your chosen action. I'd choose something else. But, even then, Meph tends to dislike redirections.Well, hypnotism is something that requires physical interaction with the victim.And psyyyychically wrapping someone in invisible chains is just plain impossible.As for the guerrilla, I'd nix the idea. It might seem fun, but it's more like you'd simply just make the same item over and over. You're better off with all the items premade, but even then... it doesn't have a place other than as an Alien. But, what would the goal be? If you don't have that planned out, the Alien can't be played well. Plus, the Operative plays similar to this.Why not town? We've already got scientists who can manufacture snooper bots, after all. Maybe we can even ditch the killing item, or maybe put restrictions on the number of items of each kind that can be manufactured.
Other than that, having a few more Alien types could be interesting. I'm still not all that happy with the Spore Spreader, so it's up for review. And the tech, as usual, could stand some more balancing.Right now, my only gripe with the existing techs is the absolute, utter uselessness of Psychic Pulser. Replacing it with a stasis chamber seems good both from balancing standpoint and from flavor (since it's cutting edge, after all).
The biggest change I'm thinking about at the moment is less mechanical and more administrative. I need to get the flavor locked down and in the rules. This last game has really driven home just how much of the game is based on knowing what the flavor means, which puts newer players at a huge disadvantage since that kind of thing isn't really written down anywhere.Naaaaah. I like the wildly varying flavor. What you should do IMO is specify (in bold lettering) what caused that death or other. For example:
I also think this discussion should wait until the current game is over.You're just butthurt.
Also, what does doomspeaker actually do? I've never been clear on that point. :(If you're talking about the #mafia version, yeah it's pretty much impossible to work out unless you ask one of the admins. Daz told me that it works based on the "doom percentage" that banshees use - if you go up to "100% doom" you die.
The biggest change I'm thinking about at the moment is less mechanical and more administrative. I need to get the flavor locked down and in the rules.
That's exactly what I was thinking, Book.How is that anti-thematic? An alien with a suicide bomb can't make it targetable? He's a psychopathic techie with lots of gear. I THINK he can manage to make his deadman bomb shoot out little darts of poison at death or something. Heck, maybe he's a sharp shot and can get off a few kills before he dies. Change it to Last Stand if you want, and make it Call of Duty. Point is, this guy could easily kill a few people if he wanted.
So...Deadman Bomb. What are people's thoughts on it? Too random, yes. But what's the best way to fix it? Make the targets chosen by the user? That's more balanced, but a bit anti-thematic. Bombs aren't that precise.
Also, Meph, please make it impossible for the Exty to win a scorched earth victory (i.e. he MUST be alive to win). Otherwise dumb things can happen, and it is stupid from the flavor standpoint.So make it so there's no reason at all to take the DMB except spite?
Implying there is right now.Also, Meph, please make it impossible for the Exty to win a scorched earth victory (i.e. he MUST be alive to win). Otherwise dumb things can happen, and it is stupid from the flavor standpoint.So make it so there's no reason at all to take the DMB except spite?
Also, Meph, please make it impossible for the Exty to win a scorched earth victory (i.e. he MUST be alive to win). Otherwise dumb things can happen, and it is stupid from the flavor standpoint.How does it make no sense? I assume that a kill-crazy alien wouldn't mind going out by killing everyone. Maybe it's some sort of Predator ritual? You don't know his life! It CAN make sense, and it avoids ties. I do the same thing for sks because they don't stand a chance otherwise.
You literally said the reason in this exact quote: it allows the exterminator to win after dying when there are 2 or fewer others left. An action which makes you win is not an action taken out of spite.Implying there is right now.Also, Meph, please make it impossible for the Exty to win a scorched earth victory (i.e. he MUST be alive to win). Otherwise dumb things can happen, and it is stupid from the flavor standpoint.So make it so there's no reason at all to take the DMB except spite?
Is it as powerful as the Body Double? No, it's not. But I've decided the body double is too powerful. It's like the Assassin Bot was: So powerful no one every really has a reason to take anything else. So I'm going to either nerf it or scrap it. It might end up as a Medium Alien Tech, since they're allowed to have more powerful goodies.Actually, no. Body Double is exactly the right amount of powerful, since CES can't do anything else during the game after picking it and effectively flips after losing it, which is especially damaging to dopp CESes, ESPECIALLY if they flip after fakeclaiming. Moreover, if you nerf it too hard, CESes will simply switch to mindray and no alien with a medium tech slot will ever pick anything except the double. Maybe put up a poll about what do with pulser and EMP?
What I mean by flipping is that if a dopp CES fakeclaims and then somehow dies, he'll get immediatly lynched again.Yes, wasting a town lynch and therefore essentially giving the dopps an extra kill. If the dopp didn't have a BD then he'd just die and not waste that lynch.
Also, what's the point of intentionally getting yourself lynched, even with a BD?If it's actually pre-lylo and you're trying to shield another dopp who has an assassin bot or something. But you're right: you don't need to get lynched as a BD in order to break lylo. Even if town lynches your buddies they'll eventually be down to 3p and you'll win.
Thoughts?
I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner.All right, but how about the questions regarding the replicator? (shouldn't its use be a free action? can duplicated items be created? what happens if it's used to make two bombs?)
For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.Those infected players would not be able to spread spores themselves if lynched/killed, right?
New Alien idea: Harvester.I like the Organ Harvester a lot. The other two, not so much.
A few:I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner.All right, but how about the questions regarding the replicator? (shouldn't its use be a free action? can duplicated items be created? what happens if it's used to make two bombs?)
For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.Those infected players would not be able to spread spores themselves if lynched/killed, right?
If so, then it removes the multiple-generations thing that was a plus with the SS... as Toony said, rather than a jester, the SS in this form has an incentive to make it to D2/D3, and then get lynched, as he'd be practically guaranteed victory then. It would work, if this is how you want it played.
New Alien idea: Harvester.I like the Organ Harvester a lot. The other two, not so much.
The tech one sounds really random; would he want only alien tech (too little) or human tech as well? He also would need to hit people fast, before bots/modulators/scanners/shields and the like are used up... Would a medium-size tech (like bot) be worth more to him than a small size one like shield? Would the abductee lose all their tech when abducted? Can he use the tech?
The mind stealer sounds off... he'd need to abduct N1 to gain a role, use the role N2, abduct again N3, use the new role N4... his win condition would change every time, hard to make a consistent strategy. What if he abducts a dopp? Can he dopkill? Would he get tech?
New Alien idea: Harvester. This alien will come in several flavors. All of them will involve Abducting a player for the night. An Abducted Player will be gone for the Night, as well as the next Day and Night. They will be found, in whatever state, at the start of the Second day. What happens to them while abducted depends on the type of Harvester.
Organ Harveter - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player for the next Day and Night. If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.
Thoughts?
I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner. And this is the first time in 21 games that it's really had a huge effect like this, so I don't think it's a critical issue at the moment.Awwwwwwww. Why didn't you like any of mine or Jim's ideas? There's already been precedent. It doesn't matter that it happened so late. A game-breaker is a game-breaker regardless of when it was discovered.
The Body Double needs to go or be nerfed. I'm leaning towards either the Stasis Field idea or making it just protect against Lynches.Awwwwwwww. Maybe make it activa...ble, but only able to last through one night and one day (or maybe the other way around)?
For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.FOUR PEOPLE? That's just plain ridiculous. All the SS needs is to survive two days (since it'll net at least four deaths) and get an almost guaranteed win. With this idea he becomes a survivor who simply can't lose. I'd say decrease the number of people to two (or maybe one) and cut out the survivor wincon.
So...when Lynched the Spore Spreader will randomly infect 4 other players. It will not be known who is infected. As long as one of those people survives to the end, the SS wins. If NK'd, the SS will infect whoever killed them as long as it wasn't a tech kill of some sort (Like the Plasma Bomb).
New Alien idea: Harvester. This alien will come in several flavors. All of them will involve Abducting a player for the night. An Abducted Player will be gone for the Night, as well as the next Day and Night. They will be found, in whatever state, at the start of the Second day. What happens to them while abducted depends on the type of Harvester.FUCK YES. Except Tech Thief kinda sucks, as mentioned before. Also, I don't really see OH as using the abduction mechanic. It's basically a delayed NK. So basically, he's a techless exterminator. Also, I think make Mind Stealer abduct a player for a day and a night and then release him, making him either a voteless vanilla of whichever race he is or a simple vanilla (in addition stripping the dopp of a NK ability). He wins after stealing a certain number of minds.
Organ Harveter - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player for the next Day and Night. If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.
Spore Spreader becomes a standard Jester
...
This catastrophy will kill all other players in the game
On the SS:
losing a day
How about have it cause the next Day to be skipped? More nights is always pro-scum, so the town actually stands to lose something without ending the game right there.This could work well.
Deadman Bomb becomes Hold-out Blaster: If the Alien is lynched, he pulls out the blaster and gets to shoot a single target before dying. If he is night-killed, he gets a shot off on his attacker (although he still suffers the effect of the attack). This is a one-shot item.Good. What happens if the alien is day/ morning killed?
Body Double gets a nerf: A perfect body double. It could be organic, robotic, even a hologram. Regardless, it takes his place in dangerous situations while he stays safe. This allows him to escape a Lynch by having the body double destroyed in his place during the day. It's a one-use item, though, so he's vulnerable after it's been destroyed.The nerf is welcome but it's still a pretty dull item that doesn't do much other than eat a town lynch (making it a scum-only choice really).
Mind Control Ray loses the restriction on the MC'd action's target: Once per game the MS can use the Mind Control Ray to choose another player's target for the night. If the player does not have a night action (and is not the dopp chosen for the night kill), or if the player has a limited-use night ability and chose not to use it, then no action occurs. The Ray also allows the Scientist to control that player's vote during the next day and may change it as often as he wishes. Its effect is fairly obvious, however.I'm not sure what the change is. Does the MC get used up if it's not hitting someone with an action?
Role Changes:I don't like this one. It's just too easy to win with and ruins the game for everyone else, potentially on day one. It also means the town will be scared of lynching people even if they're acting really scummy.
Spore Spreader becomes a standard Jester: This alien organism has been engineered to spread by spores and prepare earth for a take-over by depopulating the planet. The only thing is that the host has to die for the spores to spread. Whenever the Spore Spreader is about to be lynched it will prepare itself for the spores to be relesed and then spred them upon death. This catastrophy will kill all other players in the game, preventing any other win-cons from being fulfiled (except for an Exterminator)
Victory: The Spore Spreader must be lynched.
New Role:The victory condition seems incorrect on these ones? The tech thief seems a bit chance based and hampers roles like the exty which are already fairly hard. The Mind Stealer is basically a super-agent who can choose his alignment so I don't like it. Harvester seems ok but without an "X" it's hard to know whether it'd be balanced.
Harvester
Race: Alien
Goal: Kill/Find
Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are three different types of Harvesters
Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination from the parts of those killed. After some # of kills (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.
Tech: 1 Medium Slot (Tech Thief only)
Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)
Still pondering the Tech Thief to decide if it's worth putting in, or what changes would make it more interesting.
Had an odd idea for the Tech Thief. Kind of a Reversal of what it did.Hmm...
Rather than Take Tech, the role is changed to a Field Tester for some Alien tech company. Abducted players are gone for a day but come back with a fancy piece of tech that they've been 'programmed' to know how to use.
The Alien is trying to get all of their Tech tested out. A few piece can be used by the alien themselves (like scanners) but most needs to be tested out by a subject to count. So the alien is actually trying to extend the game by judicious use of abduction and tech choices so that all of their tech gets used up by the end of the game.
They would win if all of their tech is used or distributed by the end of the game. Survival is only important for as long as they have tech to give out.
jestery survivor.Well, aren't you're just stupidly smart. Oh wait.
Had an odd idea for the Tech Thief. Kind of a Reversal of what it did.Hmm...
Rather than Take Tech, the role is changed to a Field Tester for some Alien tech company. Abducted players are gone for a day but come back with a fancy piece of tech that they've been 'programmed' to know how to use.
The Alien is trying to get all of their Tech tested out. A few piece can be used by the alien themselves (like scanners) but most needs to be tested out by a subject to count. So the alien is actually trying to extend the game by judicious use of abduction and tech choices so that all of their tech gets used up by the end of the game.
They would win if all of their tech is used or distributed by the end of the game. Survival is only important for as long as they have tech to give out.
Here's my advice:
Make a Scientist role that has a similar effect. He has like 2-3 Techs to give away that he can't use himself (I don't know, he's afraid of his inventions or something). They can be one-shot role powers basically (They can even fail, if that's what you want [Which could explain why he gives them away, the leak acid all over your hand]).
THEN you can add the Alien version (Call him the Planet-To-Planet Salesalien). The Alien will have 4 (Player dependant -> Players / 4 or something) Techs to give away, but does not abduct (Too many abducts for Aliens, he just markets to them). His goal is to give away all his Tech (not use). 1 Small Tech.
This also makes the Tech Stealer more viable.
As for the SS, don't make them game-ending Jesters. Don't even do Jesters. Jesters hardly ever work. I honestly don't see a problem with the current form of SS. What is it?
What happened to the Stasis Field aka abductions-by-humans idea I proposed earlier? Did it get scrapped?
I guess another thought would be to simply remove the SS's survival win-con. Make it so he HAS to get lynched and have one of the new SS living at the end to win.Too random and dependent on the skill of the infectee.
I guess another thought would be to simply remove the SS's survival win-con. Make it so he HAS to get lynched and have one of the new SS living at the end to win.Too random and dependent on the skill of the infectee.
How is a Field Tester Scum Scientist overpowered? If they give away inspects and protects to their team, they can be found out, plus the team gains nothing really. That's like saying a roleblocker is stupidly powerful because they always hit someone not on their team. Sure, they're more powerful, but they aren't ovepowered. They're like... Twice as powerful as their Town counterpart. No big deal.What I'm trying to say here is that the Scientist I described isn't stupidly powerful as scum. It would be if he gave away kills, but he wouldn't. He'd give away trackers or inspections or a one-shot tech block shield or something random. The best part about it is that you literally can pick almost any ability to give away, and he'd still be pretty balanced for both sides (excluding kills).
As for abductions... Nah. Since there are things like the Exty kill, it's not that big of a deal to keep it like that. However, Dariush's Stasis Field is interesting, if you want. Having the ability to hide behind human roles is the key, not more Alien roles.
And the SS acts more like a survivor town, in that they win with the town if one survives. I think it's fine to have town friendly aliens to pretend to be.
Hmm...I think I see where you're going with that. I'll need to ponder the effects of different techs, though, to figure out the balance.Playing something Jestery isn't really all that fun for everyone else. Look at the current list of alignments I made, and try to work on that. You could switch Spore Spreader to be something Martyr-like. That makes it so he has to play town-like, which is good for a game, but he doesn't have the survive part of his alignment.
Field Tester is probably not going in this game because of that.
So I'll leave Field Tester/Tech Thief out for this next game.
SS I'm still on the fence about. I like the idea of having roles with different win conditions than simply Kill/Survive, but it's a bit harder to balance and still be interesting for both the person who has that role and the rest of the players.
Deadman Bomb becomes Hold-out Blaster: If the Alien is lynched, he pulls out the blaster and gets to shoot a single target before dying. If he is night-killed, he gets a shot off on his attacker (although he still suffers the effect of the attack). This is a one-shot item.Do I read this right as the kill being directed if lynched? That is, the alien can choose who dies with them, not the person who last voted them?
Body Double gets a nerf: [saves your life on lynch only]Good, I am also in favour of this. Hopefully it gives other tech choices more action as well.
Spore Spreader [...]I voted "Remove it entirely" on the poll, based on the lack of consensus, on the fact that I agree a game-ending jester is a terrible idea, and the other poll options were not much better. I'm also not a fan of the Martyr thought.
HarvesterI like the Organ Harvester, looking forward to seeing it, but dislike the Tech Thief (or tech giver alternative). wuba's comments notwithstanding, I think it would lower the general value of tech and mess up the strategies and balance too much.
Race: Alien
Goal: Kill/Find
Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are three different types of Harvesters
Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed.
Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.
The mind stealer sounds off... he'd need to abduct N1 to gain a role, use the role N2, abduct again N3, use the new role N4... his win condition would change every time, hard to make a consistent strategy. What if he abducts a dopp? Can he dopkill? Or a Xeno?
I like the Organ Harvester, looking forward to seeing it, but dislike the Tech Thief (or tech giver alternative). wuba's comments notwithstanding, I think it would lower the general value of tech and mess up the strategies and balance too much.I think Tech SHIELD is highly undervalued right now because of the lack of actual Tech. It protects from Aliens and that's about it. You might get lucky with a Scientist, but if you add a bit more Tech, Tech Shields can become a worthwhile investment. Something a scum Scientist could switch out for, for instance. No default Mind Shield on Exty. Just putting that out there.
The main thing is that the Mind Shield stops two common and major threats - the Telepath and the Warden. The tech shield does have a few uses (against int scientists, assassin bots and the occcasional rival alien) but those uses seem rare compared to the roles that are essentially the town's bread and butter.Exactly. I feel like it's undervalued, and it definitely has a place in the game.
It's probably partly that extys usually have more to fear from the town and dopps than they do from other aliens (they already are the guy with the most tech afterall).
Way too overpowered. Cut out or at least nerf (to one maximum person per night) the goal learning (which basically makes your version a confirmable omnipotent cop who can hang anybody by the balls and has no loyalties to anyone) and you have a workable role.Better Idea: Only allow the goal learning after the SS is dead, so it can't communicate the results to the other players.
Meph, so what are you going to do with the SS?
And, yeah, the current SS is just kind of boring. Functionally it ends up as a Survivor who may luck out and win even after getting lynched.
Is the SS wincon exclusive to everybody else's?
Will the "primed" players being lynched spread the spores obviously?
Would a primed player know they were primed?
Do infected players win with the SS? If so, what about dead ones?
The main issue with the Paranormal Rules as I see them is one of balance. The game is often stacked pretty heavily against the town, due to two factors.Yeah, these are all good points. I would never give the scumteam a doublekill without a good reason.
1. The numbers. It tends to be that 1/4 of players are doppelgangers, but that becomes pretty difficult to win once you add in your 2-3 aliens who aren't interested in lynching them.
2. Doppelganger roles. Specifically Advanced Doppelganger and Vigilante. AD is extremely powerful and also hides its own flip. I'd say that it should be changed so that it flips AD (or maybe missing) when converting, at minimum. Vigilante is extremely strong in dopp hands and should probably be made town only, or alternatively shrink the dopp team by one if it exists.
Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.
Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.:'(
Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.:'(
Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.:'(
Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.:'(
Did you read my ideas for the new SS mechanic? I made it MUCH more active now. You not only have a Night Action to Infect someone with, you're actively trying to get everyone infected by the end of the game. This should effect both night action choices as well as lynch decisions.
Basically, have the SS visit someone each night to infect them with Spores. Once that is done, that Player will now release Spores upon being Lynched (but not killed in any other way). Those Spores will now infect a random non-Infected player (and not the SS, of course). The SS will always know who is infected. If the SS is lynched (but not killed in any other way), they will do the same.
1) Lynch Infecting: There is ZERO skill involved in getting yourself lynched, or in gaining extra infectees from lynches. If you get lucky and infect the scum, you could win.Sure, but the lynch infection is just a last-ditch thing. The night-action infection is the main avenue for victory.
2) Win Indication: There is a certain measure of indication for win conditions. Typically, it's the remaining number of players that gives it away. For Spore Spreaders, there's the issue of nobody knows how close to losing they are.Yeah, I've been pondering this. There obviously needs to be some way for town to know about a Spore Spreader and possibly a way to counter it. I think I'll make it obvious on role-flop if someone was infected or not. That should help, because you can use basic math to figure out about how many people have probably been infected. I'll probably let Guards stop an infection as well (And either become infected themselves or simply stop it, as appropriate). That, with Tech shields, should be enough I think.
3) Powerful Yet Passive: The Spore Spreader is super powerful. Far more powerful than a cult. However, needing to infect everyone makes them basically impossible to win. They are like a Watcher mixed with a Cult mixed with a Survivor, but in all the worst aspects of the role. This doesn't make it fun to combine a whole bunch of roles.It simply infects people now, so it's not a cult. More Arson who's trying to get everyone tagged at the end of the game.
4) Nonsensical: The Spore Spreader doesn't add anything to the game flavorwise. They're a cybernetic race of aliens that infects its host to spread its spores. But, killing the host is the only way to continue the infection. That's not a viable way to live. You'll just eventually kill off all your hosts. How would a Spore Spreader MAKE another Spore Spreader?
Can you make the role fun and make sense? Because as it stands, it just plays a passive role until you randomly win. I'd rather be a Doppelganger and eat people or a Human and fight Doppelgangers or even a Survivor that got caught in the middle than this random Spore Spreader guy, because then I'm not playing a different game from everyone else.My idea for this is that you'll be carefully trying to pick targets to give you the best chance of having everyone infected at the end of the game. Someone who is likely to get Night-killed is a bad choice. You want people who will either live through the game or get lynched. It's a more subtle role than basic Town/Dopp, but it should still be interesting. And no more passive than a SK, especially since you need the game to go on long enough for you to make sure everyone at the end is infected. If town or dopps win too early, you're out of luck, so you definitely care about identifying scum and working to keep things going. But with more to do than the Watcher.
What about a daykill?Should count for the win. Who would be stupid enough to daykill if they knew that?
I really don't like the new SS proposal. It's too random for the SS with the spores splashing on random people, and no other faction can really do anything about the Spore Spreader even though it can make them lose.
If you want a Paranormal jester, I've come up with a new mechanic idea (although I'm not sure how to flavour it). Basically, once per game during the night it can make an announcement, publically. This announcement forces the town to lynch on the next day (spore spreader can privately break a tie). If the spore spreader is lynched that day, they win and everyone else who has not already achieved their win condition loses. If the spore spreader is not lynched on that day, they lose and leave the game.
I think this would be an interesting role for all involved - perhaps fairly difficult to win, but I think that's acceptable for a third party that can have the glory of a solo victory. I'm thinking they should maybe have a medium tech slot because the idea of them screwing with an Advanced Holoform Modulator amuses me.
For the town, they know exactly what is at stake.
But, one of the main points was that they're forced to lynch that Day.For the town, they know exactly what is at stake.
What's at stake is that the day that announcement is made, they're in a MyLo situation. Lynch the SS, everyone loses. Don't lynch the SS, normal day. No lynch, and the scum get a free pass that day.
The likeliest case, assuming no lynch is an option and there's no obvious scum to lynch, is no lynch. So, the SS loses, and the scum avoid losing one of their own.
Nope. I can see in my mind how that day would play out beyond a doubt. That's a gnarly anti-Town role.
I still don't like how the arsonist SS has a pretty much random chance of winning after they die (IE there are a bunch of people who can cause everyone else to lose but they don't know it). That wouldn't be fun to deal with as the town or the mafia.I'm still agreeing with Leafsnail here, Meph. It just doesn't seem like a fun concept.
Well either someone has a track result to the infectee or there's no way of knowing at all. Neither scenario results in interesting scumhunting.In essence, the counterplay to the Spore Spreader is pretty low.
The problem isn't so much identifying the Spore Spreader - identifying and lynching a scum player is a legitimate part of a mafia game. It's dealing with the infected players who aren't even aware that they're carriers.
And for extra fun if the Mind Stealer is killed/lynched have all the roles they stole randomly given to vanilla players.
Writing the flavor, however, would be quite interesting (if not for the fact that the roleflip is visible).And for extra fun if the Mind Stealer is killed/lynched have all the roles they stole randomly given to vanilla players.
Hmm. Yeah, that could be fun.
Well, yes, but I can simply make it so that only Role information gets passed and nothing about human/dopp or anything like that. And the Dopp specific roles can simply not pass on to a Human in order to prevent any meta knowledge from being passed.Wouldn't this make it benefit Town more, though? Why not just allow Town players to get Doppelganger roles? Have the Mind Stealer have previously stolen roles that you can mix in. This prevents a lot more meta knowledge than your proposed idea, while also allowing for crazy things.
I can't really see how Advanced Doppelganger would work as a human role, though. Tough Dopp, sure, but Advanced? After all, it's not the mind that lets a Doppelganger mimic another person (at least not wholly)Well, it would clearly try to absorb someone's role, but would fail. I mean, they're not an actual Doppelganger. But, they WOULD eat someone.
I think I'm going to go with the idea of the Mind Stealer needing X successful abductions to win the game. A stolen role is added to their Collection, which will include 3 random roles at the start of the game. Should the Mind Stealer be killed, all roles in their Collection will be randomly distributed to players who have a Vanilla Role of some sort. So, vanilla town, vanilla dopp, maybe Survivor Alien?I think this could work.
Survivor Aliens getting a role would make things interesting. Their win-con would stay the same, but they'd suddenly have some interesting and unexpected role to possibly help them fulfill it.
One thought on the Mind Stealer's win-con: What if they needed to steal X 'points' worth of roles, and got tech? That way they could take some investigative tech to try and bag better roles (Wardens, Advanced Dopps, stuff like that), or Defensive Tech to try and say alive long enough to grab enough randomly selected roles? It would certainly make the role a little more interesting to play, although it'd be slightly harder to balance. Still, I could pull the points off of my weights spreadsheet that the perl script uses to generate the set-up, so it wouldn't be too bad.I think this is too meta.
Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
I think having your wincon changed is a lot less fun in practice than it is in theory (it makes all the effort you put into the game previously meaningless) and I wouldn't like a role that causes it to happen pretty much randomly a bunch of times. You'd also have to make sure Doppelgangers are immune to it.No, you'd have to make sure that Doppelgangers are not immune to it.
Ah, I see. No, abductees do not get to know who their abductor is (generally speaking, anyway).Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
It's not going to take more than a cycle to figure out who the Mind Stealer is if the abducted player outs them as soon as they get back to town.
I would love to contribute to this discussion but I can't find the Mindstealer role in the list of possible roles or proposed roles, am I just missing it or is it somewhere special?Harvester
Thank you, I feel stupid now.I would love to contribute to this discussion but I can't find the Mindstealer role in the list of possible roles or proposed roles, am I just missing it or is it somewhere special?Harvester
Race: Alien
Goal: Kill/Find
Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are two different types of Harvesters. A Harvester may choose to Abduct another player during the Night Phase.
Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
Tech: 0 Slots
Victory: Organ Harvester wins when all other players are dead. The OH must be alive at the end of the game. The Mind Stealer wins if its current win condition is fulfilled.
I bolded the Mind Stealer section. That is, obviously, the old rules on it that I am considering replacing.
I think I'm going to go with the idea of the Mind Stealer needing X successful abductions to win the game. A stolen role is added to their Collection, which will include 3 random roles at the start of the game. Should the Mind Stealer be killed, all roles in their Collection will be randomly distributed to players who have a Vanilla Role of some sort. So, vanilla town, vanilla dopp, maybe Survivor Alien?It's survivor with a twist. More power. Downside is that it collects powers that it doesn't want to use, since it has to abduct, unless it grabs a day power role. So really is just an ICM with the ability to give (most likely Dopp) power rules on death. In that sense, it's probably more likely to be killed if found out. On the other hand, I would hate for the game to be broken because a Dopp got her hands on a vigilante role.
Survivor Aliens getting a role would make things interesting. Their win-con would stay the same, but they'd suddenly have some interesting and unexpected role to possibly help them fulfill it.
One thought on the Mind Stealer's win-con: What if they needed to steal X 'points' worth of roles, and got tech? That way they could take some investigative tech to try and bag better roles (Wardens, Advanced Dopps, stuff like that), or Defensive Tech to try and say alive long enough to grab enough randomly selected roles? It would certainly make the role a little more interesting to play, although it'd be slightly harder to balance. Still, I could pull the points off of my weights spreadsheet that the perl script uses to generate the set-up, so it wouldn't be too bad.
Thoughts?
It is similar to the Xenozoologist in a lot of ways, but I think giving it reasons to use investigative techs would make it more interesting to play as. And it fills a role in the abduction set by giving people back. It is also less survivor since it's win condition, like the Xenozoologist, depends on accomplishing a set goal rather than simply living to the end of the game.Yeah. To me, it feels anti fun for both the MS and the stolen player, since the MS doesn't really have a chance to use the role they stole (They have to abduct) and the stolen from (They are powerless.) It's not big enough to try to argue much against it or not play, but it certainly could be better. An incentive to use these roles would really set it apart.
Power imbalance from the Mind Stealer dying is an issue, of course, but that is partially solved by the addition of extra roles at the start. I can simply not let game breaking role combinations come back out.
I've been thinking about that, but what do you do with some of the roles? Bodyguards are common in most games, but that's the last power an alien would want to use. Most of the others are ok, but don't necessarily help the alien win more than abducting random people would.That sounds doable and much more fun, so long as it has limited usage. I would say each role can be used once (or the buddy is killed :( ) It could double as a personal shield, limiting their tech, but picking what a MS would have anyway (MS ahould always start with something like a Doctor or BG role.)
Hmm...what about some sort of Robot Buddy instead of tech that could be given the Role ability for the next night? Then you'd have the alien abducting and the RB performing whatever the action is? Would make it more fun, I think, and let the alien more safely use abilities like Agent or Reporter without getting whacked by War Vets and the like.
If a doppelganger gets swapped and then swaps again to town/third party they can just say who their partners were.Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
It's not going to take more than a cycle to figure out who the Mind Stealer is if the abducted player outs them as soon as they get back to town.
I think that Leafsnail's wincon change comments are directed towards me.I think having your wincon changed is a lot less fun in practice than it is in theory (it makes all the effort you put into the game previously meaningless) and I wouldn't like a role that causes it to happen pretty much randomly a bunch of times. You'd also have to make sure Doppelgangers are immune to it.No, you'd have to make sure that Doppelgangers are not immune to it.
However, I was considering this from a naked standpoint and not considering the existing administrative techniques, and their inability to operate this sort of situation.
Yeah, I was thinking each role stolen would have one use in the RB.I'm more of a fan of a "single use item" (one life), with upgradeable modules in place of tech slots. It seems a little more balanced, and makes the MS a little more fragile.
Question is, is the RB a single thing that is gone if killed, or does the MS have backups? I'll have to run some scenarios for that, see how it'd effect the balance.
If a doppelganger gets swapped and then swaps again to town/third party they can just say who their partners were.
What do you mean by upgradeable modules?Yeah, I was thinking each role stolen would have one use in the RB.I'm more of a fan of a "single use item" (one life), with upgradeable modules in place of tech slots. It seems a little more balanced, and makes the MS a little more fragile.
Question is, is the RB a single thing that is gone if killed, or does the MS have backups? I'll have to run some scenarios for that, see how it'd effect the balance.
I was responding to Doll's suggestion, I even quoted them that time.
Mephansteras (Question 1)
If during Night X
Observant Guard A protects Observant Guard B,
and Observant Guard B protects Villager C
and Scum D kills Villager C
Who will die, and who will be told that Scum D tried to kill someone?
Mephansteras (Question 2)
If during Night Y
Observant Guard A protects Observant Guard B,
Observant Guard B protects Observant Guard A,
and Scum C kills Observant Guard A
Who will die, and who will be told that Scum C tried to kill someone?
What happens if an Observant Guard protects an active War Vet?
Yes!What happens if an Observant Guard protects an active War Vet?
He gets shot. And probably 'informs' the War Vet of who shot him in a horrified/sarcastic/betrayed sort of way.
/me silently passes Wuba $20Yes!What happens if an Observant Guard protects an active War Vet?
He gets shot. And probably 'informs' the War Vet of who shot him in a horrified/sarcastic/betrayed sort of way.
"I can't believe you've done this!"What happens if an Observant Guard protects an active War Vet?
He gets shot. And probably 'informs' the War Vet of who shot him in a horrified/sarcastic/betrayed sort of way.
*Knock knock*!/me silently passes Wuba $20Yes!What happens if an Observant Guard protects an active War Vet?
He gets shot. And probably 'informs' the War Vet of who shot him in a horrified/sarcastic/betrayed sort of way.
The Guardian guard.
This is some good scenery to imagine :PThe Guardian guard.
Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. A Guardian would still be shot by the War Vet. They don't die when preventing a night kill against their target, but they are just as vulnerable to a night kill targeted at themselves as anyone else.
Huh. So a Guardian/Guardian loop is bulletproof?The Guardian guard.
Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. A Guardian would still be shot by the War Vet. They don't die when preventing a night kill against their target, but they are just as vulnerable to a night kill targeted at themselves as anyone else.
Also in regards to that one Spore Spreader which gives obvious plants: Can the death be anyway prevented if the lynch goes awry or otherwise?
Huh. So a Guardian/Guardian loop is bulletproof?The Guardian guard.
Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. A Guardian would still be shot by the War Vet. They don't die when preventing a night kill against their target, but they are just as vulnerable to a night kill targeted at themselves as anyone else.
Wow. This imagery.Huh. So a Guardian/Guardian loop is bulletproof?The Guardian guard.
Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. A Guardian would still be shot by the War Vet. They don't die when preventing a night kill against their target, but they are just as vulnerable to a night kill targeted at themselves as anyone else.
Yeah. As long as there was only one night kill attempt, anyway. Guardians only prevent one attack. Only the Heroic Guard can block multiple in the same night. So a Guardian could protect another guard from a War Vet's attack, but that guard would still suffer the normal effects of protecting the War Vet if they were targeted.
Wow ._. Pretty risky but also pretty "fun" as a dopp-aid possibly.Also in regards to that one Spore Spreader which gives obvious plants: Can the death be anyway prevented if the lynch goes awry or otherwise?
The SS must be Lynched that day to win. Something like an Advanced Assassin Bot killing them would prevent them from winning.
Well 4maskwolf told me that if the answer to that question is a no. Then that means the dopp tried to target web last night. He also said that it dammed Roseheart pointless N2 information.
and here is 4maskwolf whole arguement against Roseheart.
Alright fine I'll make webadict's case for him.
1. Roseheart's role is a much more powerful scum role than Juicebox's, so if Roseheart was scum it would make sense why the telepath was performing the NK (as compared to, say, someone like you, whose role requires no actions and would thus be a preferable killer for the dopps)
2. Roseheart refuses to provide N2 results as a role whose results are now irrelevant, which smacks of a scum who can't come up with a good fakeclaim (if I was roseheart I would have claimed investigating Caz)
3. Roseheart doesn't even appear to be reading the thread, pushing an agenda about how webadict is trying to lynch Caz next when webadict is Caz's staunchest defender and someone he actively confided in.
4. Even beyond the refusal to provide N2 results, Roseheart has just been really weird ever since Web accused him, and doesn't seem interested in finding scum so much as just not getting lynched. Even after web claimed something that was contrary to Roseheart's claim, Rose didn't start accusing or pushing him until Webadict basically demanded it.
On the off chance Roseheart isn't scum, I'd say Persus is the next most likely: his claims (protecting Juicebox then webadict) is a convenient claim for a dopp guard (actual actions: protecting Juicebox, attempting to kill webadict).
Yeah I agree that that post should have violated the rules.I also agree. That should never have been allowed. I would be okay with a claim flavorban.
I've mainly analyzed flavor on kills in the past. You can tell what faction did the kill sometimes from that.
Honestly, I had more of a problem with the use of flavor to confirm actions. Most games with fluff have an explicit ban on sharing any of the flavor sent to you by the mod until postgame because it bypasses the purpose of the “no quoting the mod”: by providing flavor you grant your claims extra credence from the moderator, and the amount of time and effort required to fake it is prohibitive to the scum team to try and counter flavor claims.That felt broken for the "right reasons" if that makes any sense. So long as it's taken into consideration in balance.
1) You CANNOT trust the flavor to tell you what is going on. It may be accurate, or it may be deliberately misleading.
Paranormal makes me think of ghosts and evil dolls, Sci-Fi Horror is waaay more up my ally. A pleasant discovery.
a bastard paranormal game would be +fun+ :)
bastard paranormal...a bastard paranormal game would be +fun+ :)
I like running bastard games. I do, in fact, have a Paranormal one in mind that I'd like to run sometime.
bastard paranormal...a bastard paranormal game would be +fun+ :)
I like running bastard games. I do, in fact, have a Paranormal one in mind that I'd like to run sometime.
Man it's been eight years since one of those was run.
Seems like we'd need more people to be around to have a really good game of it, bastards tend to end quickly and without the town knowing what's going on when they're low numbers in my experience.
And I'll be honest, writing interesting flavor is one of the reasons I run games.I mean, its one of my favorite parts about reading or playing in your games.
Plot twist: next game you get to be a Human Guard (Kook)!And I'll be honest, writing interesting flavor is one of the reasons I run games.I mean, its one of my favorite parts about reading or playing in your games.
I look forward to continuing my streak of being a Human Guard in your games.
Plot Twist: They start as a Human Townie and are Spirit-Bonded a Guard role.Plot twist: next game you get to be a Human Guard (Kook)!And I'll be honest, writing interesting flavor is one of the reasons I run games.I mean, its one of my favorite parts about reading or playing in your games.
I look forward to continuing my streak of being a Human Guard in your games.
I have mafia idea. First though, how long do you need to setup Mephansteras? I'm willing and able to wait.
Also night yall.
As for boosting the power of Doppelgangers in small Towns, I think Doppelganger specific Modifiers would be a way to go. They're really missing a bit of passive power to their roles when they kill. Something that's one-shot is gonna give them more power without breaking the game too hard. Like, for instance, giving the better Active role a one-shot Kill Immune gives incentive for the Doppelganger to kill, as opposed to just giving it to the weakest power role. Heck, giving each of them something different that makes them something more powerful than a normal Townie might be better. Two Dopps with these powers can fight stronger Towns, so coming across a strong Power role wouldn't be out of place in those cases.
This would mean coming up with some, but fear not, as I have ideas. For balance and player reasons, I think telling the Doppelganger when these are used is for the best, and purposefully not using them should also be a choice:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I feel though even for regular games, would you really need to label the whole game as bastard, if you just had this and its' disclaimer? No opinion on being pro bastard or pro standard for the next Paranormal I join, but even my experience in the current session could probably benefit from this. The fact that the dog was female and I didn't know it gave Web something extra to claim for Tric. It was perhaps not contradictory to what I was told, but it was random, and extra, for a similar action.Quote from: Bastard Paranormal 11) You CANNOT trust the flavor to tell you what is going on. It may be accurate, or it may be deliberately misleading.
That seems a good balance. And if it is just the flavor then it smacks of fair AND entertaining.
(So long as there is this disclaimer!)
Glad you enjoyed the writing!
Medium is a bit tricky in some ways. It is reliant on luck (the medium living long enough to have two with useful power roles die and have info to give) and on the skill of the medium. A scum medium can really put words into the mouths of dead townsfolk if they're good, and that can add a lot of weight to what they say. So I'm a bit torn on the whole 'quoting the dead' thing. It's strong if everyone is sure the words are from the dead person, but strong both in favor of town or scum depending on who the medium is.
An early medium claim with powerful pro-town info like that is pretty rare. I'd say this is probably one of the most influential cases of a medium I've seen in a game. Heightened by the small number of players, really.
If Paranormals keep getting such small numbers of players I may need to rethink the weights on some stuff. It was really all built back when getting 12 or more players was the norm, and that has a huge impact on how much any given power role really has on the game. Plus the loss of any one player (town or scum) has less of an impact in a larger game.
However, the ban on quoting flavor like the dog is probably wise. I don't think I usually see people use it like that, which is surprising because I'm sure I've had various flavor tidbits between night actions before that could be used. Maybe I used to just limit those to death scenes where it mattered less?
But you won't get, say, a Tough/Reporter dopp or anything like that.Another idea to add: Dreipelganger. A Doppelganger made from consuming two (or more) humans, gaining multiple or combined roles (Say, an Agent/Detective that performs an investigation of both Race and Role.)