Post by: Scoops Novel on August 08, 2014, 03:26:14 pm
Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps
85000 for a goal of 12000. You've earned it, judging by 67 pages of questions and answers :D
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 08, 2014, 03:31:14 pm
Post by: Jopax on August 08, 2014, 03:38:41 pm
Also interesting take on the idea, not many evil sims these days it seems.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 09, 2014, 02:41:25 am
I've complained about it before, it seems like whenever people try to do a "villain simulator" video game it's goofy tongue in cheek bullshit. Overlord, Dungeon Keeper, etc. etc. I think it's because video game developers are generally incapable of subtlety. I don't think a lot of devs could make a "serious" villain simulator without being overly violent or offensive or just generally hideous (See the ridiculously over the top Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion for a good example of what happens when video game developers try to play it straight.)
I'd really like to see someone play the idea straight for once and do it right and this seems like what I've been hoping for. Still not getting hyped until something playable comes out of it though. I appreciate that it seems like they dropped the announcement pretty well into development, instead of showing us pre-pre-pre-alpha vapor.
Post by: darkflagrance on August 09, 2014, 03:59:51 am
Quote
So I was testing something particular and plowed ahead with trying to get the Fringe civilizations to unify under one of my agents, and the Grand Alliance had formed... I noticed that the Necromancers and Lizardmen kingdoms had joined them... and they were republics???
How did this happen.... so I went back and checked all the logs. It appears that the Necromancers got a random event that ports can get that gave them a trade route, AI for trade routes had always been written for Civilized Cultures so they started to act like that with their trade route. They formed a route with the Golden Republic of Toln, and used the trade to get better relations. Eventually the Gold Coin merchant company expanded there, giving them a second trade route, which they created with the Lizardmen kingdom which had formed prior based on a Quest. While I passed turns focused on the Fists of Errus plotline they all gained relations, approaching the cultural bound and the threshold for "Cultured Civilzation Revolution", and at some point reformed into republics, forming a close alliance with Aventura and Toln. The Wayfarer's Adventurers Guild even opened a branch in lizardman capital, spawning a lizardman hero.
The designers seem to aiming for the same kind of "procedural story generation" that dwarf fortress has. That makes it worth watching, in my opinion. To be honest, this game will probably be made or broken based on the depth and novelty of its generated narratives. It's a more fleshed out experience, being the villain when the heroes, rulers, and civilians have lives, goals, and dreams that you're crushing instead of just numbers.
Post by: Farce on August 09, 2014, 02:30:59 pm
Post by: nenjin on August 09, 2014, 02:37:55 pm
This looks pretty sweet.
I've complained about it before, it seems like whenever people try to do a "villain simulator" video game it's goofy tongue in cheek bullshit. Overlord, Dungeon Keeper, etc. etc. I think it's because video game developers are generally incapable of subtlety. I don't think a lot of devs could make a "serious" villain simulator without being overly violent or offensive or just generally hideous (See the ridiculously over the top Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion for a good example of what happens when video game developers try to play it straight.)
I'd really like to see someone play the idea straight for once and do it right and this seems like what I've been hoping for. Still not getting hyped until something playable comes out of it though. I appreciate that it seems like they dropped the announcement pretty well into development, instead of showing us pre-pre-pre-alpha vapor.
I think it has somewhat to do with the late 80s, 90s ideas about what can get sold without protest that still linger today. Lots of games have come out that are practically sociopath simulators....but it's always a product of the simulation rather than a deliberate thematic attempt. And I think that's the line. Developers are fine with creating games that allow stuff like this, it's really committing to the theme of playing a truly evil character that everyone is gunshy about. It's the humor or the half-warm commitment to playing an evil character that stops them from being labeled as disturbed or pushing a socially unacceptable theme.
And yet somehow, we've still managed to see a series of games with.....really unpleasant themes in the indie scene. Why there is no middle ground, I don't know. I'd think someone that made a good game that allowed us to play an evil character, without undercutting its own theme, would do very well. Personally, I've always wanted to play a Lord of the Rings-esqe game where you play Sauron, commanding his dark armies, rather than playing the heroes trying to stop him.
Dominions 4 actually allows for this sort of thing...but again....all of the theme is presented up front in the nation and god descriptions. All the terrible things you can do past that point are really just flavorless aspects of the simulation. I dunno. I guess when you stare into the Abyss long enough, it stares back into you and I think that's something a lot of devs deal with when they try to make games based around evil characters or villains.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 10, 2014, 04:32:37 am
It's definitely something you have to carefully maneuver around. I think Neonivek said it once and when I think about it it's pretty accurate, that the idea of a "villain" is inherently a little cartoonish and lends itself to that kind of chiaroscuro where you can be over the top silly or over the top obscene but middle ground is hard to find.
Dominions is pretty good for playing the villain to some extent yeah, though the multiplayer balance aspects sour it a little bit. Sometimes I like playing the unstoppable villain against grossly outmatched foes, sometimes I don't really want a fair fight. I used to play the skirmish mode of Jedi Outcast as a decked-out Sith Lord solo against a team of low-level jedi (The jedi academy moviebattles mod actually made this kind of asymmetrical combat possible in multiplayer somehow. I've beaten players of equal or better skill 2v1 before just by the nature of the combat system)
There's apparently going to be a kickstarter soon but it sounds like it's mainly to develop some original art assets instead of using campaign cartographer stuff. I think the current artstyle looks great but that's a good way to do a kickstarter.
I said it before and I'll say it again, I really appreciate that this guy has clearly put a lot of work into the game before he started hyping it. The progress bar is at 80% and it seems like it's mostly just in need of polish and art and that kind of thing. I'm sick of finding cool "in-development" games where it soon becomes obvious it's just an amateur dev puttering around with something that'll never actually get done. I might actually back this one, show some support for proper, responsible developer practices.
Post by: Vattic on August 10, 2014, 05:43:54 am
Post by: TempAcc on August 10, 2014, 01:55:18 pm
Post by: SharpKris on August 10, 2014, 02:42:30 pm
Post by: sjm9876 on August 10, 2014, 03:00:38 pm
The game looks brilliant, it looks like mechanically complete, and the dev seems to know what he's talking about. Hell, he even admits to having compromised, which is always a pretty good sign.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 10, 2014, 10:28:13 pm
Dev here - was extremely happy and humbled to see some of the positive statements about TWS - which my friend and I have been working pretty diligently on for the better part of this year.
We've mostly tried to keep it quiet up until now because we wanted a playable demo before we really got the word out - but since a few of the gaming sites picked us up we are making it a priority to be an active participant in some of the discussions happening in and around the creation of the game.
So let me know if you had any questions - I'll try to check in from time to time but please keep in mind I'm working full time and spending almost all of my waking time coding. I'm not sure if its ok to post links here or not but you can google the project name or my username to sign up for our newsletter if you just want to hear from us when the game is released.
Post by: ductape on August 10, 2014, 11:13:59 pm
I ams ure you know about this, but theres some really awesome map artists here: http://www.cartographersguild.com/content/
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 11, 2014, 04:10:40 am
1) how many agent types will we have ? And what happens when we turn a hero into our of our agents do we then have a *hero class* agent what about turning rulers into agents as well?
2) you mention in one of your updates about turning a thief's guild into a assassins guild does this mean that from the 4 arch types guilds will evolve and turn into sub types ? ( even without your intervention? )
3) can we play the game with no ending ? Your game seems like you could just keep pressing turns and have fun watching the world change and evolve even without you tinkering with it.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 11, 2014, 04:25:23 am
Yay hello dev :D I have a few questions.1) To what degree will the different nations interact? For example, will they be able to go so far as to destroy each other without player intervention, of is there a limit to how far they'll go?
2) Relatedly, as you've already mentioned modding, will it be possible to go so far as to make new civilisation types?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 10:30:20 am
These are all fantastic questions, most of them were answered only after significant internal dialogue in our team. Let's hit them point by point.
1) Initial release has 15 custom agents, with the number you can recruit at any time dependent on which Old One you've chosen and how awakened your Old One currently is. To answer the second part I need to explain slightly how Agents work, Agents are "available" once they've been corrupted, so if you can satisfy the requirements for an agent they are considered available to you even though they haven't yet been recruited onto the map. When they are like this they offer passive bonuses, for instance if you satisfy the requirements for Baron Greywind he passively lowers Order throughout his hated cultures region, and any battles there will be assisted by some of his legions. If you recruit him as an Active Agent onto the map, you lose that bonus. You can corrupt Heroes and they operate similarly, giving you a spy in an adventuring group, army, or state depending on the location of the hero - when you "activate" them they join your side with their current stats intact and any "corruptible" abilities become their corrupted counterpart. If they were in a precarious situation when they were activated, such as during combat, they will often do something deterimental to the other heroes before vanishing. Heroes stop leveling after they join your side, and operate like all other agents.
2) All of the guilds have special actions that can be taken, turning the thieves guild into an assassin's guild is unique to the "Underworld" guilds, but some of the others have corollaries. For instance, the Mage's Guild can be told to focus on a particular type of magic and the Merchant's Guild can begin selling mercenaries.
3) Currently that's not possible, the Chosen One would eventually declare himself and sages would SLOWLY figure out you were awakening and they'd raid your lair. It would be pretty easy to mod the game and allow it however. We WERE thinking of doing a scenario that you stay in deep slumber UNTIL an adventurer stumbles over you and awakens you, but it may not work out to be fun.
4) I like how you phrased this question, there is a "cultural limit" that most nations will go to when it comes to warring with eachother. In general they will fight limited wars for strategic objectives (which may be not so logically strategic depending on their personality) - in order to get them to commit their forces and fight a total war or a war of annihilation they'd have to really hate eachother, which CAN happen randomly but is unlikely without your intervention, either preventative (stop leader and bard type heroes from swaying public opinion and leader decisions) or purely malicious (staging border raids and massacres, inciting the peasants against a culture).
5) Yep, new civilizations are pretty easy to make. You need a culture to assign them, and a leader to rule them then you just specify their government type and you could drop them right in. Culture determines the "personality" of the POIs, mostly villagers, the Leader determines the political stance of the nation and its potential, and the Government Type effects its available actions when determining what course to take.
If you guys have any feedback on this stuff please let me know, I love hearing about our design choices and what you think sounds fun or what maybe we should explore doing a different way.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 11, 2014, 10:58:17 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 11, 2014, 11:07:14 am
Post by: pisskop on August 11, 2014, 11:24:30 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 11:39:27 am
Do you have any plans for the shadow of your former self vibe I'm getting? I mean, I'll take growing in strength as a given, but you could have things like steadily regaining your memories (especially of what caused your downfall), erratic control of your power (what happens when Sauron has a nightmare?), even standard villain bait like vague prophecies disturbing your rest. Or, if your weakness comes from ancient, weakening bounds, perhaps you can only use certain aspects of your power for fear of a tightening of the chains? Then there's the labyrinth for the minotaur... the point being, the circumstances of your fall from infamy should impact your rise, and maybe give a little venom to player efforts. On the note of standard villain bait, i recommend plenty of it, and hoisting the player by his own petard.
Hoisting by his own petard, now that is a great expression. Let me address that concept first before talking about the Old One theme and powers specifically.
Every action you take leaves "clues" that Heroes and Champions will be deciphering. When a mundane agent performs a minor infiltration, the clue is only about the agent "Someone did something mundane" - nothing special. When agents work together it leaves conspiracy clues, "The Rake is working with The Shadowmere", and when an Agent uses a power Imbued on him by the Old One it leaves "Ancient" clues that tie back to the fact that you are rising and who, exactly, you are. A player who indiscriminately spams his abilities will end up being uncovered quickly, which can spell game over if you haven't brought the world to its knees already.
As for the Old Ones themselves, Sample Image (http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ThatWhichSleepsScenario.PNG) - this image shows how Scenarios are begun, by a series of questions asking what exactly happened that led to your fall. Some of these will lead to situations like you mentioned, where your powers are bound by certain items or other limitations (many of these are still TBD). In addition each of the Old Ones is unique, and there are two that are more "human" than the others and have elements of the failings you've mentioned.
The other element is the Chosen One who rises to stop you, his actions and continuing presence may change your status to "Your dreams are pierced by blinding light" which impacts your ability to support your Agents with your power. The antagonism between the Chosen One and the Old One are very moderate in our current build, but it is on "expected to implement" list to really create some powerful interactions between the two outside of the simple mechanics that currently exist.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on August 11, 2014, 11:41:59 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 11, 2014, 12:15:28 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 12:30:30 pm
As for persistent world... that's a really "historical" question for us. We actually tried to make a strategy game based around a persistent world... almost ten years ago at this point. The pitfalls of the design were such that we ended up rejecting the game entirely after a lot of effort, so we've leaned more towards treating your repeated attempts at victory as "a repeating cycle". We DID plan on an Old One who does reuse a single corrupted hero from a prior game, but that Old One is not confirmed to be added and I'd say it's 50/50 if we end up using him.
I agree with your points on NPC personality, I do want the player to have a strong attachment to them - but it's one of the issues where we had to simply draw a line and reject any additional complexity to the formula. Hopefully the personalization we've added to them combined with their niche strategic possibilities will give people that attachment and complicate the already difficult decisions that emerge.
AI does adapt within the scope of the game, and the Alliance AI knows how to beat a particular Old One with sufficient lore research. It's up to the player to deny the Alliance AI access to resources as well as deluding it, and the remainder of the Leader AIs, from your path, either partially as in having them think you are the wrong Old One (use a ton of zombies and they will believe you are the Lord of Undeath), or fully by keeping them at eachother's throats.
Loving these questions, keep them coming.
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 11, 2014, 12:50:23 pm
Also do you have a ETA on the kickstarter ? I promised my self no more kickstarters but I made an exception to this one and really want to throw money at you :P
Post by: Lithare on August 11, 2014, 12:59:44 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 01:31:17 pm
Thanks for the reply ! :) will you continue to develop and create the game after release ? This sounds like my dream game the only thing I'm worried about is the game being a little shallow, im hoping for huge amounts of actions and events to really make different tactics and stuff different each time.
Also do you have a ETA on the kickstarter ? I promised my self no more kickstarters but I made an exception to this one and really want to throw money at you :P
I want to make sure we have at least a wide variety of meaty videos for people to see before we do the Kickstarter, and ideally I'd want the demo to be out but if we want to do the KS next month the demo may not be released until well into it. Because this is such a "unique" Strategy game I want people to have a really good idea of what it is they'd be purchasing. All the money from the KS will go into art, which the game desperately needs. Sign up for our Mailing List (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/#subscribe) if you'd like to get an announcement when it goes live.
As for continued development - what a big question, if the game is popular ABSOLUTELY. So many elements were cut from the game early on that I REALLY want to get back in, if the game makes enough for me to continue to work on it and begin to reintroduce those elements that is a path that I want to take. Still, the priority will be a fully polished final product with its full suite of mod tools before any expansion work would begin.
Some of the things that got cut but that I want to reintroduce:
- You are not alone - Rival Old Ones who you need to deal with all while continuing your own advance
- Evil turning in on itself - your Agents work against eachother and pursue their own personal agendas
- Gods and Religions - the Gods stand with man if man keeps the faith, spread cults to undermine the religions of the world and create your own false Idols
- And of course more agents, more races, and more of everything
I definitely want to reiterate though, that even if the kickstarter was a shockingly large success I would want to polish and release the base game before anything else. The game stands well on its own and I want modders to be able to start working as soon as possible on crafting their own worlds - at that point I can work with the community to see what features would be best to introduce into the game. Of course, I seriously hope it's adding Gods and Religion back in, the fun potential and the additional strategic layer is just so compelling, not to mention it naturally melds in with the theme.
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 11, 2014, 02:57:27 pm
If you had to say your game did anything useful, what would it be?
Post by: Farce on August 11, 2014, 03:05:16 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 04:39:46 pm
There are no plans for the adventurer perspective in That Which Sleeps, the decision on what aspect to focus on came early and we couldn't do justice to more than a single perspective. Still, the idea of having almost a Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII (I think VII had the free officer mode) set in this style of game definitely has appeal and I could foresee it being a later release, but that's very, very far down the road. You could "fake it" by modding a scenario to have a very long slumbering old one, eliminate the chosen one and lore from the world, and then play as a single agent - but it wouldn't have quite the adventurer feel.
Post by: Xantalos on August 11, 2014, 05:06:16 pm
If you wanted to get me enthralled with this idea, then you succeeded.
I'll be supporting this, I'm thinking.
Post by: nenjin on August 11, 2014, 05:28:11 pm
The other is that I find the menus very visually unappealing. Perhaps its the hard black border on it, or the way information seems kind of cramped in its presentation. Perhaps its also the lack of texture in the background of the window itself. I'm guessing it's supposed to invoke memories of trading card games like Magic, which I think it does. It could just be a lot softer/more visually interesting.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2014, 05:48:38 pm
Post by: nenjin on August 11, 2014, 06:06:43 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 06:24:50 pm
The idea was more to aim for the "Board Game" feel for the menus, that is that the principal items that are relevant to you are displayed like VERY striking 'pieces' on the menu, you can't avoid them.
I think that reskinning the POI, Hero, Agent menus would be sufficient for the game (I would love to hear if you think otherwise about these menus), but we actually have a better way of handling the Events that distributes the choices like you see on the scenario generation segment. I'm in the middle of making some gameplay videos so I won't be demoing that for awhile but I think it makes the events run a lot smoother, the downside is that it takes up much more map space.
Post by: nenjin on August 11, 2014, 07:18:21 pm
The drabness you speak of in wanting heroes and such to pop definitely shows. The area between POIs and land features is barren. There's a little bit of texture variation going on there, and maybe it has a little more life to it while playing. But from a SS perspective, it almost looks like a grey void. There needs to be a bit more noise there, even if it's just tone shifts.
Over the course of screenshots I've looked at, I've seen the forest features go from looking very sharp at the edges to having a more blended look. I'd say go even further, perhaps diffusing some of that green color around the forests (and other features) so the line between them and the rest of the map isn't so stark.
Really the starkness of the map is what makes everything pop to an uncomfortable degree to my eye.
This clip of a screenshot from moddb is illustrative of what I mean:
(http://i.imgur.com/C94GpDG.png)
The blend between the town and forests are decent, but between the mountains and forest, not so much. I see something that kinda looks like a drop shadow there around the edge of the forest, and stuff like that helps soften the boundaries. I just think you need to go farther with it, and give land features a little more visual creep so it transitions better in the open ground.
Re: Menus
They don't look as cramped as they did at first blush. I think it's the bolded text and the size of screenshots you offered that contributes to them feeling that way. But the heavy black border is definitely too much. Needs an inner, brighter border (like black, gold, black) or the edges of the black border need to be softer. Or you might go with a decorative border (something evil looking, perhaps?) and just use black to edge it out. It almost looks like "true black" to my eyes, which means you could probably back it out a little more into gray so it doesn't create quite as harsh a contrast. Consider adding a drop shadow to the outer edge of the menu too, which would give it a 3d overlay effect, as opposed to just looking like a 2d square over the map. Some of the text also isn't kerned quite right, or at least inconsistently, in some menus.
And, like I said. A little bit of texture to the "Card stock" would go along way toward making those menus feel like they have depth. There's already a bit of shading on the white text portions, which looks like. That same level of thought just needs to be applied to the rest of the menu assets.
You might try to organize a little better too what's flavor text vs. not. Ex:
(http://i.imgur.com/JrbJRyP.png)
You've got the title of what it is at the top: solid. You've got the secondary text under the title answering the "Who?": Reasonable. You've got the menu options at the bottom with their costs and descriptions: solid. But that space in the middle with the flavor text seems oddly placed. In a playing card game or a table top game, that'd be where the picture goes. So the text there has a lot of emphasis placed on it. And I assume the "Time for some new blood" text is sort of the lead in to your choice options. But it's kinda crammed in there between the box for the flavor text, and the choices section.
I'm not entirely sure how you could rearrange it, as I get the expected flow based on the layout you have. Can't stick flavor text between the "coup" button and your dialog options. But I feel like some elements of that arrangement there is out of place. What if you took out the white box surrounding the flavor text entirely, and put it in italic font? That way the eye would more easily drift past it to their choices. It's just that section seems to be shouting while saying very little.
The agent/hero menus I think are fine, they just have the issues of the menus in general. But I like the layout of abilities on one pane and gear and sundries on the other "page." Reminds me very much of Arkham Horror characters sheets. It's a little harder to judge those menus not really knowing much about gameplay.
The POI menus seem pretty decent for what they're trying to achieve. Again, having not played it, it's a little harder to say what works vs. doesn't since my brain doesn't know what's important about those menus other than educated guesses. So for example, those little tool widgets on the lower right look oddly placed, but I have no idea what they do.
Here's my TLDR: that salmon coloration on the menus has got to go :P Maybe you were going for something akin to parchment, maybe it's just my monitor's color settings, but it looks pink to me.
At a first glance, based on the color choices and stylization, I'd not have guessed this was a game about playing an evil guy. And the salmon color of the menus kinda contributes to that. Something like a yellow parchment color I think would be more appropriate. Faded yellow/brown/white, like so. (http://wmich.edu/sites/default/files/attachments/u5/2013/parchmentH_0.jpg) You might lose a bit of the "game card stock" look, but I think you'd gain a lot of the "kickass tome" look. In menu-driven games, the content of the menus matters a lot to me because they're the primary thing you're interacting with in game.
All in all I like what I see, it just needs the hard/jagged edges sanded off in a lot of places. Menus are a bit rough and I'd spend a lot of time thinking about how to give them depth without making them hard to read.
Here's an example of what I mean, and sorry for harping on Magic cards but that's what leapt to mind when I saw your menus.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1. The heavy black border has a rounded edge to contrast against the sharp edge of the actual card graphic. It both softens the boarder a touch and drives attention inward, away from the border. (They also happen to be playing cards so you round them so they don't get beat up as easy.)
2. The title. Nothing special in and of itself, except its relation to the subtitle, which is beneath the "main stage."
3. A nice fake beveled edge. This is part of what I mean about giving things some depth. In this it creates the illusion of 3d, like you're looking into the image through a window. The image part of it isn't relevant to your design, but you can use the tricks to create levels within a menu in visually interesting ways, to give them some tangibility and crunchiness. You've got some of that going with drop shadows on certain portions of the menus, but more could be done.
4. Dat texture. Imagine if this section was one solid color. It'd suck half the life out of the presentation.
5. The subtext. Again, it's part of the visual read. From title to image to subtext to rules to rules to flavor quote.
6. More texture. I'm not actually a fan of this one, but again, leaving stuff that takes up a lot of real-estate one solid undifferentiated color ends up looking bland to me. Some might call it understated, but like I said, if I have to look at a menu primarily as the thing I'm doing in a game, I want it to be a menu I find interesting to look at.
7. The italics clearly indicate what's flavor and what's not. It also occupies a much lower priority in the hierarchy of the visual read.
Your menus play by different rules than playing cards, so not all of this applies in the same way it works here, like where you choose to put flavor text or what it's meant to achieve. But I think the principles are still pretty applicable.
Anyways, thanks for reading and good luck, I look forward to giving you money.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 11, 2014, 08:13:15 pm
This is a fantastic post, and I really appreciate how you broke down the components both in understanding what we were trying to do and also the steps that would probably get us there. There actually was a very cheap Unity Asset package with "Card" type boundaries, but the problem is that the values that we want to display are so fluid even late in development that we want to really be 100% on what icons, text, and values will be displayed before investing anything in making them final.
That being said, I'm glad you're ok with the Heroes, Agents and POIs, I find those to be very functional, quick to view, and fairly easy on the eyes. I will work with that black background, I was thinking of giving it an undulating shape similar to something "oozing" or tentacles... that might work nicer to give it some flavor.
The Bevel is a great idea on how to add depth to the white sections of the menus, I may just go ahead and implement that tomorrow and see how it looks. Thanks for that!
The image you chose, the Overthrow a Guild action, is DEFINITELY representative of what we want to change and I'm glad you brought it to the spotlight. A lot of what you brought up, especially with the uncertainty of how to combine the text properly here, is something we've been hitting recently which is why we decided to REDESIGN events entirely. Like I said prior it's a little early to demo it, but it "blows out" the pieces of the event and superimposes them on the map - doing away with the salmon background and working with the entire screen. It gives it a more natural cause/effect display and lets us be more descriptive with the text. It looks a lot nicer, though it could still use a proper artists touch.
About the map, we're on probably the 8th iteration of this map and I think each time we get a little closer to having the features more naturally blend in together. That mountain/forest boundary there definitely could be improved, but I'm guessing we won't be going through for another overhaul until the demo is imminent. I like the idea of going a little deeper with the blending on the edges, I can change the layer settings and see that in effect for my next build.
The "stale" nature of the map was a HUGE concern for me early on, I like a living map although still not wanting it to detract from the agents, heroes, and units who should dominate your vision - what doesn't come out from the images is there are a lot of subtle "pulsation" effects on the map that are almost impossible to see unless you focus on them, but it gives the map a more vital feel. The shields, for example, all pulsate with certain colors slightly based on their status and owners, and darkness spreads from them based on your influence. In addition, the Military units, garrisoned or otherwise, have banners flying gently in the wind, and birds occasionally dot the screen. All in all I THINK I accomplished the sort've natural feel I wanted on the map, and I really look forward to our feedback on the upcoming videos.
Again, thanks for this post - it's the type of critical feedback we've been hoping for, understanding of our limited artistic ability at this time but also constructive with straightforward techniques to improve it.
Post by: nenjin on August 11, 2014, 08:28:04 pm
KDG, I like the sound of "in situ" placement of notifications. I like the card motif plenty, but sometimes other presentations are worthy breaking from the mold on.
Also, you might consider editting the title to try and describe the game. "Turn-based fantasy dark lord sim" or something of that variety. The title of the game is evocative but I skipped past this one a few times and even posted in it before I sat down to find out what the game was about.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2014, 08:36:24 pm
Maybe you should add some map animations? Travelers along the road, ships along trade routes, shifting frontlines during wars, etc. etc.
all reflecting whats going on?
Of course, not that it's really representative of what this game is about, but ill point you toward Distant Worlds 4X, the feeling that you can zoom in on individual ships/fleets/planets and that they go about their daily business no matter what you're doing really adds a lot of depth.
Post by: Zangi on August 12, 2014, 01:29:04 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 12, 2014, 06:34:43 pm
In response to a more lively map:
Maybe you should add some map animations? Travelers along the road, ships along trade routes, shifting frontlines during wars, etc. etc.
all reflecting whats going on?
Of course, not that it's really representative of what this game is about, but ill point you toward Distant Worlds 4X, the feeling that you can zoom in on individual ships/fleets/planets and that they go about their daily business no matter what you're doing really adds a lot of depth.
Ideally, all of this would have been on the table - if we had an artist at the start of the project or the funds to hire one full time we would have planned to have exactly what you describe. In peaceful time farmer's at the fields, trade flourishing - in times of war little refugees moving across the map. Unfortunately we're forced to be more abstract with how we show the world, villages can burn, shields radiate darkness and crack as order falls, but moving beyond that has been a challenge given that I don't want to split myself any further from development.
However, we do have a friend (friendship is our only currency right now) who is mocking up a wagon and a ship in 3d which we may just put, tiny, on the map to add just those elements. It may, or may not, look good and get in the game - we'll have to see.
Hopefully the KS goes well and we can get the GUI freshened up and make this all look clean.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 19, 2014, 03:48:16 am
Spoiler: Speculation? (click to show/hide)
I like the gods' names a lot better. I dunno, just throwing Cthulhu in there seemed a little strange, but all the names are cool now and you can get a sense of how they work and what they do. So what do we think the little icons are? Belial probably has Will Over Fate from Azarine in the old pic (http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ThatWhichSleepsDemonSelect.png) but herald of the corrupted makes me think he might be the new Zombie God as well too, having some kind of power that raises the dead or corrupts people into monsters.
And then Karth I'm guessing is the wargod. World in flames sounds like some kind of fire god but he's also the scarred like Orgus and he's got the shortest sleep timer which makes me think he'll probably be a more combat-oriented god, coming into the world early but weaker and conquering more militarily. That sounds pretty cool, I like Karth.
And then Azlan is Cthulhu and Sysphus I'm not sure about. The screenshots suggest he's a human who became what he is through something you choose in world creation, like sucking out dying people's last breaths. Pretty cool but I'm not sure how well it jives with the flavor text at the top about incomprehensible old ones.
I'm pretty hyped, a little disappointed that these GUI updates will delay the videos though D:
Post by: Xantalos on August 19, 2014, 03:54:55 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 20, 2014, 11:21:53 am
It is too bad we have to redo the videos yet again, but the new GUI looks so much better so I think it's worth it - in addition I had to time to replace our static banners with pre-baked 3d banners that really bring the military aspect of the game to life on screen.
Post by: nenjin on August 20, 2014, 12:14:11 pm
Post by: Neonivek on August 20, 2014, 12:18:58 pm
This looks pretty sweet.
I've complained about it before, it seems like whenever people try to do a "villain simulator" video game it's goofy tongue in cheek bullshit. Overlord, Dungeon Keeper, etc. etc. I think it's because video game developers are generally incapable of subtlety. I don't think a lot of devs could make a "serious" villain simulator without being overly violent or offensive or just generally hideous (See the ridiculously over the top Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion for a good example of what happens when video game developers try to play it straight.)
I'd really like to see someone play the idea straight for once and do it right and this seems like what I've been hoping for. Still not getting hyped until something playable comes out of it though. I appreciate that it seems like they dropped the announcement pretty well into development, instead of showing us pre-pre-pre-alpha vapor.
The problem is MOSTLY that a villain simulator tends to be a silly concept in it of itself... because all you get is a character who does EVIL because they are EVIL!
Kane and Linch are examples of games that... err wait... no they play up the campy comedy.
Black and white... err no... that game is a farce
Fable... no wait.. you play the good guy even when you are the bad guy...
Ok so no game does that.
To make a successful serious villain game you need to have a character with a goal... and then establish limitations.
Post by: nenjin on August 20, 2014, 12:23:36 pm
Take Dom4 for example. The story is pretty well laid out. The Pantokrator is a huge dick, imprisoning spirits and demi-gods left and right. Different spirits had different roles in the universe prior to his ascension. When he poofs, suddenly all these repressed spirits get a chance to claim the world as their own, to act out their role. It's no different than every other villain's motivation of AMBITION! but it's fleshed out with enough details so it's believable, it's interesting and you get buy-in from the player to your ideas and world lore. Games like Overlord and Dungeon Keeper have a narrative too, but it's both spoiled by humor and the villains themselves still aren't that memorable, or interesting. So you get no buy-in, just grudging acceptance.
It's often disappointing to me that what's necessary to set the stage for a good villain game isn't art, it isn't coding....it's goddamn writing and contextualization, and many developers seem to skip over it.
Post by: Neonivek on August 20, 2014, 12:29:10 pm
It is more of a black and grey world... So by what respect are you the villain?
Post by: nenjin on August 20, 2014, 12:35:34 pm
Yeah but NO ONE is a good person in Dominions version any of them. Heck even Pantocreator is a big jerk...
It is more of a black and grey world... So by what respect are you the villain?
Eh, there are plenty of at least neutral figures in Dom4. And what makes you a villain is your approach. Sure, you could nurture each province, grow its population, improve its fortresses and provide for the common defense....or you could make your dominion a life-obliterating and plague and pillage the shit out of every new province because you don't care about its people or its prosperity.
In that sense, you're a villain more by what you do than than just simply the fact you have horns and paths in Death and Blood Magic.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 20, 2014, 01:40:55 pm
Attempts to humanize "great evils" often tend towards really abstract arguments or goals, trying to lend them a godlike "rationale" that goes beyond our morality - the humans agents are often motivated by issues rooted in the world. Jealousy, greed, and those shunned by society are motifs that are explored often in books but not so often in games. I'm hoping that the Agents allow the player the chance to have those narratives within the world, even if the evil that you technically play as remains somewhat more unknown.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 20, 2014, 04:00:04 pm
A lot of elder evils don't need much more motivation than that. They're the Darkness.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 21, 2014, 03:00:02 pm
Post by: Neonivek on August 21, 2014, 03:07:39 pm
I don't agree with them... (mostly because the person just didn't like Lovecraft and was criticizing it based off of dislike that he doesn't extend the same logic to things he does like...) but still.
I'd honestly think that if the god awakened that you would lose... It would be interesting if you don't lose immediately but in a few (very few) turns.
It was always somewhat disappointing when you cast the game ending spells and the game just ENDS... Equally annoying is when you cast the game ending spells but you still have to hunt down the final sliver of resistance (DANG IT Master of Magic... the world is a giant volcano I won!)
Post by: nenjin on August 21, 2014, 03:12:43 pm
The whole point of the game is to do evil without being discovered as the source of it.
And it'd be a little harder to go incognito when your very existence causes people in the world to go mad. That's the kind of red flag you can't hide very easily.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 21, 2014, 03:29:20 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 21, 2014, 04:15:18 pm
The Chosen One is the hero foretold to defeat you, and depending on the archetype (sage, leader, adventurer) he will go about it in a different way, and if you want to win you should absolutely be paying attention to his strategy. A leader will rally the nations of the world together, mending bad blood and finding allies in strange places - you can expect the Alliance to have a strong military. A sage will quickly identify your nature, finding your weaknesses, and begin to spread tactics to dull your strengths - expect the Alliance to be well prepared to battle your agents and deal with your powers, and for the Chosen One to seek great artifacts and perform powerful rituals to seal you away. Finally the adventurer, the adventurer varies highly based on his class, but you are most likely to see the kind of cataclysmic final battle at the Old One's Seal with an adventurer type - he will find powerful heroes to be his allies, equip himself and his team well, and then prepare to smite you.
As for the Alliance and the way the world reacts to your powers, look at it this way. If the world begins to suffer from crazy earthquakes and waves of madness how does each nation act? A nation may turn inward, caring for itself and its own people, close its borders. Another may try to seize the opportunity to grab some neighboring land. These are good things for you, and how the individual AI can behave - the alternative is that they join the Alliance (the actual name is determined by the leader of the alliance), in which case they work together to solve what is plaguing the world. So yes, people may think something is wrong when the dead rise from their graves and stalk the land, but if you can make sure their response is to stay neutral until your victory is guaranteed that's the key to victory.
On a personal note, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE when the game comes down to final battles at the Old One's Seal. The number of agents and heroes that can be there is currently a "problem" for our GUI, but we're reworking combat right now to allow truly massive climactic battles.
So the other thing you mentioned was Karth - Karth wakes early as you said and he spawns Orc military units (called to his side) constantly while being able to perform other extremely powerful actions. He also can empower other agents with a similar power, meaning that you can raise a lot of expendable units. Yes, this may seem like you're exposing yourself to the heroes as an obvious Old One but whose to say what rumors reach civilized lands? Maybe its a god, or more likely just a 'powerful chieftain'... Managing the type of clues you leave, distracting the other nations, limiting WHO you attack and the SCALE of those attacks... the same mechanics apply even with a different pace.
Hopefully I'm not spoiling too much, part of the fun of the game is in understanding these mechanics as you fail and are sealed away again and again.
Post by: nenjin on August 21, 2014, 04:19:51 pm
Quote
As for the Alliance and the way the world reacts to your powers, look at it this way. If the world begins to suffer from crazy earthquakes and waves of madness how does each nation act? A nation may turn inward, caring for itself and its own people, close its borders. Another may try to seize the opportunity to grab some neighboring land.
Is the kind of cause/effect depth that is lacking in a lot of games. Whether that's live or still just an idea, it's what has my interest piqued in this game (besides the overall theme.) If you can deliver on that kind of complexity, TWS will definitely stand out from similar 4x strategy games because of it.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 21, 2014, 04:29:23 pm
Also, I like that answer. I guess my brain kind of wants to parse the game as being about getting to your resurrection and kind of automatically winning at that point, but it sounds like even with the more sleepy gods there'll be a lot going on even after you wake up, even to the point of staying under cover after your waking.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 23, 2014, 04:32:39 pm
And he can be called like, "The Controller." The Controller and his Captured.
Yes. That would be fun.
Post by: Scripten on August 23, 2014, 04:46:21 pm
I know this is my second double-post, but it's important. I know there's already ways to bring heroes over to your side by manipulating their willpower and such, maybe some Arthas/Darth Vader shenanigans, but what if you could force them to serve you with a ritual? Maybe there could be a whole god who does it. He can capture heroes and turn them over to his side, giving them special powers and such. Build himself a cadre of unique demigod agents called, I dunno, "The Captured."
And he can be called like, "The Controller." The Controller and his Captured.
Yes. That would be fun.
I like everything but the names. Can we go with "The Dominator?" How about "The Dominator" and his "Taken?"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: thepodger on August 23, 2014, 05:14:22 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 23, 2014, 05:21:24 pm
I know this is my second double-post, but it's important. I know there's already ways to bring heroes over to your side by manipulating their willpower and such, maybe some Arthas/Darth Vader shenanigans, but what if you could force them to serve you with a ritual? Maybe there could be a whole god who does it. He can capture heroes and turn them over to his side, giving them special powers and such. Build himself a cadre of unique demigod agents called, I dunno, "The Captured."
And he can be called like, "The Controller." The Controller and his Captured.
Yes. That would be fun.
I like everything but the names. Can we go with "The Dominator?" How about "The Dominator" and his "Taken?"Spoiler (click to show/hide)
See that just sounds silly.
Post by: lijacote on August 23, 2014, 05:33:16 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on August 23, 2014, 10:06:36 pm
Post by: NRDL on August 23, 2014, 10:53:04 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 24, 2014, 12:09:44 am
The methods for acquiring heroes, and more importantly the Chosen One, are several - you've guessed at a couple (and yes there is an Old One who specializes in corruption, as well as at least three agents who have bonuses in that arena) but there's a few more that haven't been guessed yet, and I like that they'll probably be unique.
Just to give a little flavor, you can actually "knock out" and capture heroes - taking them back to the Seal... well.... I'm sure nothing good would come of it.
So much work done on Mod support last week, exhausting but I'm glad to be back on track with the GUI almost completely replaced. Our unique icons now total over 300 for abilities, icons, and effects.
Post by: Little on August 24, 2014, 05:47:41 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 24, 2014, 06:02:21 am
I'll need to readup on the list of things to do when you're an evil overlord. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList)
Seconded. This is the kind of second-guessing plotting that the game should bring out in us.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 24, 2014, 07:53:45 am
Black Company is definitely a good inspiration. Both in the kind of morality issues we've been talking about -- At least when humans are concerned trying to find a moral high ground in a war is pointless, every power involved has done unforgivable things, but even then some things are so bad they deserve to be erased -- but also in the gameplay. The Elder Evil doesn't automatically take over the world when it wakes up, you've got this decades, maybe centuries-long conflict as the resistance keeps fighting and even almost wins.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 24, 2014, 10:36:52 am
I know it sounds like a cop-out and maybe it is, but the gameplay ramifications of insisting this one single hero be the key to the entire game seemed to dead-end a lot of other fun possibilities. So instead, if you successfully identify and kill/corrupt the Chosen One it is a powerful blow to the forces of good and obviously a fantastic Agent to have. It resets all of the Chosen One's campaigns and engagements, and marks another lower level hero as the new Chosen One.
Why did we do this? The process of identifying prophecy and narrowing down who is the Chosen One early is fun, and we wanted it to be extremely rewarding without being game ending. We wanted the game to go on as a challenge after the Chosen One fell, a world with a fallen Champion adds a lot of personality to the now crestfallen heroes who adventured with him and the nations who put their faith in him. In addition, killing a fully prepared Chosen One towards late game is just as devastating as if we had made only one Chosen One.
Post by: Retropunch on August 24, 2014, 11:11:57 am
I read early on that you weren't sure about having an endless mode - I really do think this is something a lot of people would want and I'd really suggest putting one in - even if it wasn't done in the most elegant manner. It was the very first thing that was asked for and modded into FTL, and pretty much every game of this type has had an unlimited mode put in eventually.
If you did do this, I think the best way to do it is just to make it harder and harder as time goes on, even if it's pretty arbitrary and just a 'stat boost' kinda thing, until eventually you lose.
(Sorry if this has been talked about more, I have read over stuff but might have missed a response or two)
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 24, 2014, 11:14:59 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 24, 2014, 12:16:48 pm
b) The Game End has two meanings for us - one is the climactic struggle by the Alliance and Heroes vs the Old One and his allies and the other are the actual conditions that end the game. The main way the game ends is Destruction, which is the amount of POIs in the game that are either under your control or that have been reduced to anarchy or ruin. This means that you can either occupy the world with your hordes, create enough random destruction that the world collapses, or more likely a combination between the two. Some Old Ones have specific victory conditions, such as one being able to negate all life if he completes a ritual once he has awoken, and another whose victory is tied to the Chosen One.
The game end is generally less interesting than the climactic elements that bring you to it, which is how we designed the AI. As things get worse and worse the Alliance AI (whichever nations have decided that they must band together to stop the Old One) will grow more desperate and willing to sacrifice itself in order to stop your rise. You will see massive multi-national armies marching towards your hordes, you will have to manage multiple High Level Campaigns by Heroes trying to find powerful artifacts or perform rituals to impede you, and your agents will be brutally hunted down and killed.
The key to the world is that the nations, if unified and uncaring about their own safety, would always be able to destroy you. You must keep them on the defensive, concerned about their own needs, and not willing to join the Alliance. Alternatively, tactically weakening nations that you know will join will make the Alliance weaker in the end.
Post by: nenjin on August 25, 2014, 02:06:54 pm
One way you could balance it is, every time the player kills the Chosen One and a new one is created, it's more powerful than the previous Chosen One. (However they're generated.) That way you end up making the game harder for yourself by constantly hunting them down.
Post by: Retropunch on August 25, 2014, 03:35:01 pm
a) On Endless Mode - I bet I could just turn off the victory conditions and the game wouldn't break it would just go on. I'll give it a shot and see if it works, but with some of the Old Ones you'd doubtless reduce the world to waste. I can't spend any time trying to balance this, we're strapped for time as it is, but if this works I'll make the Victory Conditions toggle in the editor. Then you could adjust hero spawn rate, restrict the Old Ones, and build one yourself. If it becomes a truly popular option we may make an official Scenario that has a similar idea.
That sounds completely reasonable. I think an endless mode of any type would keep people happy! As far as balance goes, depending on how you deal with variables/global events (as in, if it's easy enough to do) it might be good to have endless mode generally harder. You'd need to sign post this somehow, but it could be more of a 'challenge' mode of some sort.
I think this is needed because you want first time players to play the way it's meant to be played. Possibly you could have it unlock after one completion, although it might be better received if it just to be sign posted as a challenge.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 25, 2014, 05:50:13 pm
RE: the Chosen One, it's VERY resource intensive to hunt down the Chosen One early (you get prophecy pieces throughout the game that makes it easier to pin down who it is, not to mention he'll start to do 'chosen one'esque actions) so the rewards should correspond to that. Honestly at this point it almost never viable to go early Chosen One hunting, unless you are one of the Old Ones that can easily corrupt people, gaining a corrupted Chosen One is devastating to hero morale - or you rush gaining one of the two 'hunter' agents.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 25, 2014, 06:34:12 pm
Post by: Shadowgandor on August 27, 2014, 07:34:46 am
Post by: Zangi on August 27, 2014, 02:42:25 pm
And lie low for the next 1000 years, semi-simming the redevelopment of the world. When the Chosen One and the likes are long gone, you awaken once again, to continue your work, for revenge against the descendants of those who bested you, specifically hunting down the bloodline of the Chosen One and the Heroes who wronged you. (Or choose another Old One to play as.)
Well, maybe as DLC... >.>
Post by: Xantalos on August 27, 2014, 02:47:09 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 27, 2014, 03:22:06 pm
@Endless Mode: Would you consider an option to... feign defeat? When all seems lost... the Chosen One's armies are now knocking on the doors to your seal... can you fake your defeat?
And lie low for the next 1000 years, semi-simming the redevelopment of the world. When the Chosen One and the likes are long gone, you awaken once again, to continue your work, for revenge against the descendants of those who bested you, specifically hunting down the bloodline of the Chosen One and the Heroes who wronged you. (Or choose another Old One to play as.)
Well, maybe as DLC... >.>
That gives me another idea.
Maybe you can leave some treasure. A magic ring, perhaps. One of the would-be heroes loots it and takes it far away after your apparent defeat, whereupon it activates and creates some kind of living structure that feeds on humans. When it gets big enough its inhabitants can do a ritual to summon you.
You could call it... A... "Dark Citadel."
Jokes aside, it is a cool idea. Or maybe even just adding that functionality into endless mode as a normal result of losing. Big Bads don't die, they just get put back into the ground. Let the game simulate for a few generations, maybe with some genealogy systems in place if they dont' already exist, then come back.
It's definitely probably more suited for a long-term post release kind of thing.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 27, 2014, 03:39:24 pm
HOWEVER, the idea of "feigning defeat" is a major strategy in the game, just not in the way you are suggesting. The system of clues that exists will lead Heroes to try and figure out "what is going on", and if two or more agents are seen working together they get "conspiracy clues" which make them think something larger is afoot. Now if you have the Rake and the Hermit working together, that will simply be confusing, but if the Rake and the Hermit seem to be working with The Shadowmere (a powerful agent), they may conclude that the Shadowmere is the great threat. The Alliance may form if the threat is sufficient, and they will battle him - if he falls and you do NOT raise sufficient suspicion about your own involvement, then when he dies Global Awareness falls greatly, and the Alliance will disband. "Nothing to see here, go about your business"
It is a supremely fun mechanic, though it is honestly the buggiest part of the AI right now - I've had times where I was using the Orc God and literally burning down the capital of Cylaria and one of the members of the Dark Pact (a building you can make at the Seal that lets you nominate 5 agents to form a Dark Pact) died and suddenly the Alliance disbanded and Awareness dropped to 0. Other times it fails to trigger when it should - these bugs probably won't be fixed until the demo is out and I can get a larger sample size of errors.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 27, 2014, 03:41:39 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 27, 2014, 03:50:03 pm
Jokes aside, it is a cool idea. Or maybe even just adding that functionality into endless mode as a normal result of losing. Big Bads don't die, they just get put back into the ground. Let the game simulate for a few generations, maybe with some genealogy systems in place if they dont' already exist, then come back.
It's definitely probably more suited for a long-term post release kind of thing.
We will be staying far away from genealogy systems and that type of simulation - we avoided it because it adds a huge amount of testing, bug fixing, and the like with the potential for never truly doing it as well as other games which dedicate their development to it have done. By making the game scenarios hand-crafted we've avoided all of that logic, which makes it feasible to do on an indie budget/time constraint.
That being said, if someone else was making the game I'd be asking for that too.
Post by: Xantalos on August 27, 2014, 05:26:24 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 27, 2014, 05:43:02 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 27, 2014, 07:36:31 pm
Post by: nenjin on August 27, 2014, 11:45:49 pm
Jokes aside, it is a cool idea. Or maybe even just adding that functionality into endless mode as a normal result of losing. Big Bads don't die, they just get put back into the ground. Let the game simulate for a few generations, maybe with some genealogy systems in place if they dont' already exist, then come back.
It's definitely probably more suited for a long-term post release kind of thing.
We will be staying far away from genealogy systems and that type of simulation - we avoided it because it adds a huge amount of testing, bug fixing, and the like with the potential for never truly doing it as well as other games which dedicate their development to it have done. By making the game scenarios hand-crafted we've avoided all of that logic, which makes it feasible to do on an indie budget/time constraint.
That being said, if someone else was making the game I'd be asking for that too.
So are you saying there's no randomly or procedurally generated scenarios? What elements of the game are randomly/procedurally generated? It's not a deal breaker, but this is the kind of game I would want some capacity for that to happen. I'm not the "play every single god/nation/race/scenario" kind of gamer. I tend to play, of what I see, what sounds cool or fun. So when it comes to scenario based games I tend to pick them apart once intensely then kind of move on. A lot of the Elder Ones in TWS sound fun to play but....are we talking a fixed map that has different scenarios laid over it? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere. If that is the case, I can understand that choice too, especially if you're trying to build up the lore as identifiable instead of randomly generated names and what not. But I can say it does dent my interest a little (having not actually seen what all you can do on that map.)
Either way, I think that's a pretty honest response you gave.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 28, 2014, 10:15:43 am
I'll try and break it down - each of the scenarios is handmade, meaning the background is a static sprite(s) (the map itself) overlaid with some details. The nations, leaders, and champions are all crafted in advance as well. Heroes are randomly generated at game start based on a selection of variables, as are ruins (with some exceptions) and a few other elements.
Inside of that structure Scenarios contain map variations, not just in the how the map looks (an island missing, mountains where their were plains) but also variants on the available nations, their individual settings, cultural values, and overall statistics (Such as frequency of lore, which champions exist and their agendas, what type of ruins are common, etc). These are set by the Scenario Generation process, where you go through a series of King of Dragon Pass esque questions "Who served you most loyally, how were you sealed away, what kept you alive during your slumber, how did you interfere with teh world" type questions. The world that results is a variant of the Scenario, but still maintains the general idea and character.
The other point is that Scenarios are VERY easy to make, though of course it takes time to make a nicely balanced one. We accomplished this by having the POI system. All someone needs to do is have a "map" image, then click on any point and say 'City, Village, Ruin, etc'. At start the game spawns all the necessary details around that point, the shields depicting value, banners for the army, dynamic naming, etc. Create a POI, assign it to a nation, which has a leader and a culture, and that's enough for it run at a high level - you can also get down into the details of each POI and customize them further.
Using this approach, each Scenario has a unique look, feel, and overall strategy.
We went with this approach not just because procedural generation presents its own set of challenges, but because our gaming history is greatly informed by modern Board Games (EU follows a similar path of inspiration). Seeing the re playability that can be accomplished in a strategically designed world (see the War of the Rings board game, Twilight Struggle, Here I Stand) is inspiring, and we think we've reached a respectable level of the same with That Which Sleeps..
Post by: Cthulhu on August 28, 2014, 01:42:07 pm
Hopefully some of those videos will have popped up by the time I get home. I'm reaching hype levels I swore I'd never let myself reach again. I'll have to chill before I get into that "fruition will never match anticipation) kind of zone.
Post by: Sartain on August 28, 2014, 02:08:38 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 28, 2014, 03:03:03 pm
Editor screenshots: (the editor is really ugly but it's a low priority aesthetics wise)
Build Menu (http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ModBuild.png) - used to just drag and drop points on the map, or if you swap to a different mode you can drag and drop roads, naval connections, and a few other options
Edit Menu (http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ModPOI.png) - click on any object ton the map to edit its properties in a menu similar to the previous placeholder art (I doubt I'll ever upgrade the editor art but who knows), all of the menus on the left let you edit the properties of the scenario, create alternate versions, change the old ones, turn off defaults, and override global values like Spawn Rates for heroes. Let's say you wanted to play against 100% mage heroes, you could go in here change percent global spawn for mge heroes to 100% there you go.
We are planning on doing an Editor Video, but that will be the last one before the trailer - mostly because when we posted information about modding we got the least amount of interest, which I was really surprised by. Put a LOT of work into the in-game editor so I was really hoping people would be excited.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 29, 2014, 10:57:43 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 29, 2014, 11:07:26 am
Post by: silverskull39 on August 29, 2014, 11:19:20 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 29, 2014, 11:34:47 am
If we do well on the Kickstarter we will have Stretch goals - however we will be sure to explain that the stretch goals are NOT part of the initial release. The game is working fine right now and I don't want to delay the fully functional release, but there are a LOT of additional features that got cut that we want to add back in as Expansion packs. If we hit the stretch goals we'll develop and release those for free.
My number one loss was (and I've written about this a lot because it really hurt) Religions, Cults, and Other Deities. The complexity of the system and the way it would need to interact with all the other systems in play would have required a lot more time than we had, and it would have required additional art resources which are a huge constraining factor for us. It was a core feature during our initial alpha, but fleshing it just wasn't feasible so we took it out - still makes me sad every time I think about it.
Outside of that there's several ideas we bandied about, we'll probably let the community decide which one is of most interest.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 29, 2014, 01:11:35 pm
Post by: lemon10 on August 29, 2014, 02:04:00 pm
Big decision we made about the Chosen One was that if he is "removed from the picture" before you awaken then fate "weaves another Champion." (think of it as, 'oh we misinterpreted this line of the prophecy')I actually disagree. I personally like the idea of the chosen one being a role, not a specific person, so if you remove the person from that role, then fate chooses another agent to oppose you. It's not you misinterpreting the prophecy, it's you breaking the prophecies and forcing fate to make another hero.
I know it sounds like a cop-out and maybe it is, but the gameplay ramifications of insisting this one single hero be the key to the entire game seemed to dead-end a lot of other fun possibilities. So instead, if you successfully identify and kill/corrupt the Chosen One it is a powerful blow to the forces of good and obviously a fantastic Agent to have. It resets all of the Chosen One's campaigns and engagements, and marks another lower level hero as the new Chosen One.
I do know that your post is like a week old, but I still felt like giving my two cents anyways.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 29, 2014, 04:05:45 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 29, 2014, 10:15:03 pm
Watch in 720p or you won't be able to read the smaller text
I swear I'm not underwater I just have a terrible microphone - ordered a new one for Videos 3-5 but I already recorded the second one.
Post by: Xantalos on August 29, 2014, 10:18:12 pm
I swear I'm not underwaterA ha! You reveal yourself, Cthulhu!
Also oh my god this thing is getting me more and more excited.
Post by: Migue5356 on August 29, 2014, 11:22:41 pm
Really excited about DevLog #2
Post by: Cthulhu on August 29, 2014, 11:43:08 pm
Also my predictions, hell yeah. Didn't guess Sisyphus, not sure I like him much, but the others all sound great. I'm sold on Azlan now. And Belial also sounds cool, I like the idea of the town full of crows, all of them watching.
Post by: Xantalos on August 29, 2014, 11:45:08 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 29, 2014, 11:48:20 pm
And it'd be easy to make a Dominator god, or something similar. I was thinking a giant eyeball god with both their powers. Can do the Eye and absorb a character's memories, get a full report on everything about them, their memories, clues, relationships, goals, stats, everything. And eventually can Take heroes, irrevocably claiming them and giving them new unique powers.
Post by: Jalak on August 30, 2014, 12:40:06 am
I've got a lot of questions, actually, though I think I'll just stick to a few at a time. These ones mostly have to do with the way politics work.
When it comes to territory, how does the "order" level of a POI effect the nation itself in terms of actual physical control? I imagine a "black shield" POI would make it harder for heroes to quest in, force the nation to send troops just to keep order, lose money and population, I get all that. What I'm not so certain of, however, is what eventually happens to the territory itself over time. Will the territories on the fringe locations actually defect to some "outlaw" faction? Do the cities eventually declare independence? Massive refugee and maybe even deserting armies (All good for you, obviously)? Hell, could some foreign power came in and take some land directly, without an actual war, simply because the territory is so unstable that the homeland doesn't find it worth fighting over? I would love the idea of "balkanizing" an entire nation into various city states due to loss of control over the land.
Also, is it possible for you, as the elder god, to control territory directly (Get a sort of Sauron thing going on) and use that land to wage a total war on the world? Or is the closest thing you can do is "puppet" a king with your corrupting influence?
Sorry if I'm coming on a bit overwhelming, but I'm so excited about this game (or as much as I can without getting thrown out of a library)! The fact that it looks like you have most of the game already finished is a very good sign for great things to come!
Post by: Xantalos on August 30, 2014, 04:27:51 am
Post by: Jopax on August 30, 2014, 05:13:54 am
Post by: Xantalos on August 30, 2014, 05:16:16 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 11:50:36 am
On making a Dominator God - powers are very easy to customize, for instance the Call of Ravens ability is a descriptor, a result, a type, an effect, a cost. You can pull from the effects that are used for anything in the game which gives you a wide variety of options inside the editor, and if there's something we're missing it's pretty easy for us to get it out in an update.
So the "Sleep Timer" is not linear, so what I meant was that the time it takes to get from 11-12 is a lot longer than 10-11, so Azlan is asleep a lot longer than 50% longer than Belial. However there are many ways to alter the sleep timer, as can rituals and artifacts.
Sisyphus is actually a really fun Old One, he has a whole event chain that deals with him interacting more 'directly' with the Chosen One. Think along the lines of the Dark One's relationship with Lews Therin in the Wheel of Time. Good stuff.
We will talk about ALL of the game statistics in the map in the next video, but I'll try to answer your questions as best I can here. So Order is a representation of "security", think of it as how many guards patrol the streets, how aware the people are of things that go in,town watch, bonfires burning etc... so Security at 0 does not necessarily mean that the POI is now going to revolt. However, it means that if it has ANY OTHER condition that would give cause to the people to revolt, they will revolt in a certain number of turns. Revolts can also occur at low numbers of security, but take longer (giving heroes and leaders more time to correct the problem).
When a POI revolts it generally goes into Anarchy, which is now symbolized by a pitchfork shield. Cities form new nations, either from subcultures if present or of the parent culture, and even more rarely a new culture may emerge if the reason for revolt conflicts with the values of the parent culture.
Refugees are a HUGE element of the game, I spent a lot of time because the theme is perfect. When you destroy a POI, refugees will leave and go to neighboring places. This is obviously a negative element as they consume additional food and resources and cause strife. How the nation deals with refugees depends on their values and strategic position at the time, but bloodshed is a fairly frequent occurence. Even if none occurs, it makes it MUCH easier for your agents to inflitrate the POI. There's also some.... almost hilariously evil... things you can do with refugees that I'll just leave up in the air for now.
Deserting armies are also a big element, they can establish themselves in a new POI, they can go mercenary (you may even be able to buy them), or they can turn to banditry (which you may then be able to recruit with a charismatic leader).
A big difference in That Which Sleeps compared to other strategy games that have these features is that these elements are "distractions" in other games, but they are the CORE gameplay here. You need to destablize the world and capitalize on the weaknesses you create.
Yes you do control land directly, you have your own "Nation" at start in some Scenarios and when a nation joins your side you are able to build, recruit units, and raise commanders. In fact, while Agents are restricted in number you can control an unlimited number of Commanders though they are restricted to military operations. You may have noticed that our early MainGui screen did not have resources on it but our new one does, that's because we are STILL going back on forth on whether resources should be global or unique to each power you control. On the one hand, it being unique makes the game much more strategic, agents have to ferry resources around and you may have one power that is rich but lacking food and another vice versa - however on the other hand it significantly slows down the game and turns agents into couriers, creating some balance issues, so we are currently making all resources global. On the plus side, it let us add in another INfiltration challenge where you can siphon off resources of a country that you have high levels of infiltration.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 11:51:35 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 30, 2014, 01:00:33 pm
From the four starting agents ( Prophet, Rake, Hermit, Peddler ) They seem rather like one trick ponies, you said that will be quite a few more agent types ( around 15 if I'm correct ?) we have seen the baron. Are all the other agents all singular ones like the baron or will we see more standard agent types to put to use like the standard classes e.g. rogue, warrior, mage and all that jazz.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 01:18:00 pm
Agents are instead elements of your strategy - choosing the proper tool for the job is extremely important, and while they don't level up they can be imbued to augment their powers in ways that can be very useful. They do come in a wide variety of purposes, from agents that can hunt down heroes and slay them, to necromancers who fight with minion waves and raise undead armies, to leaders like the Baron who offer powerful niche opportunities.
It would also be a mistake to put the early agents into a single role or to discard their overarching utility. We didn't design any agent to be disposable, the unique powers of these early agents are not replicated by "more powerful" heroes and strategic use of them is key to winning the game.
Let me know if that answered your question, or if you'd like me to go into more specifics.
Post by: Zangi on August 30, 2014, 01:29:38 pm
Yes you do control land directly, you have your own "Nation" at start in some Scenarios and when a nation joins your side you are able to build, recruit units, and raise commanders. In fact, while Agents are restricted in number you can control an unlimited number of Commanders though they are restricted to military operations. You may have noticed that our early MainGui screen did not have resources on it but our new one does, that's because we are STILL going back on forth on whether resources should be global or unique to each power you control. On the one hand, it being unique makes the game much more strategic, agents have to ferry resources around and you may have one power that is rich but lacking food and another vice versa - however on the other hand it significantly slows down the game and turns agents into couriers, creating some balance issues, so we are currently making all resources global. On the plus side, it let us add in another INfiltration challenge where you can siphon off resources of a country that you have high levels of infiltration.This is more about how you portray the nations under your thumb then, in my opinion. Seems kinda gamey when ingame terms, every other nation has their own supply/resource and has to trade with its neighbors(or they may not even trade at all?) while.... you control 2-3 different nations and they all pool their resources automatically and instantly.
How will you portray this information? Do the nations merge into one? Well, there is still how you want to deal with losing pieces of your nation... Do you lose resources/anything else when losing land?
In the case you want to keep 3 nations as still separate entities. (Like the player losing favor/control of one of the 3 nations...) I'm not sure how far you plan to do supply line/trade between nations but... if I may give an example of a working one you can take notes on. Shattered Colonies (http://www.kongregate.com/games/duerig/shattered-colony-the-survivors) A zombie game, but you gotta deal with a supply line, where civilians gotta move stuff around. You can set minimum stockpile, where civies will grab more of when it goes below. Zombies can wreck the supply line too.
Well, in your game's case, could be bandits or an army blocking trade/supply. So you don't have to play your agent as a courier and be able to do more fun stuff with them. It is also a few clicks to have resources moved/traded within the various parts of your nation without having to excessively micromanage it if resources are moved on a minimum stockpile basis.
You can raise the minimum at your military manufacturing powerhouse or the front lines when you get ready for a push and let the AI deal with moving the supply. Though, protecting the supply line might be something else you gotta deal with if there is no AI for that. (Which brings into question if your nation(s) will have any autonomy at all.)
EDIT: I guess you might even tie in welfare/economy of given regions that can be disrupted... in your favor. But... what about managing your own?
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 30, 2014, 01:30:14 pm
It does answer some of what I wanted to know, Its cool you have gone for the villain archetypes and done your spin on them Mostly I'm just wondering what the other types are going to be and sort of uses we could put them. What happens when we corrupt a hero and they become one of our agents does their class change ? what sort of work could we put them to ?
You say agents can be imbued with powers but they can also be given items and artifacts as well will this give us a change in game play or just +1 to corruption.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 30, 2014, 01:32:19 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 02:24:26 pm
Agents are heavily customizable to match your playstyle and concentrate their strengths. Agents can be imbued, with simple stat boosts or more complicated methods will grant them uniquely powerful combat or challenge skills - they can also equip artifacts that you find which often grant powerful abilities, though there is no equipping of "mundane" magic items (no swords+2). Some of the artifacts are relatively straightforward, but most of them offer unique abilities that can even influence your overall strategy. One of the MAJOR ways you custoimze the Agent is by recruiting minions, minions don't just aid in combat they give Traits and Skill boosts to the agent. Recruiting Death Adepts at the Necromancer Cabal will grant you "Necromancy" as a trait, which lets you choose more unique options in events and challenges. They're worthless in a fight, unless you decide to throw them at the heroes to delay them (my absolute favorite strategy). This reinforces the "combat as long term strategy" element that we went for with Combat - do you shelter these hard to recruit strategic minions or expend them to spare your Agent or possibly get a kill.
You have more slots because the opening of most games is critical to your strategy, and many paths open up early agents - The Guildmaster is recruited by overthrowing a Thief Guild, the Slaver Warchief from a Merchant guild that deals with slaves, the Mercenary Captain if you recruit X mercenary minions... there's a good selection of early-mid agents that you can grab early,or you may invest your time to get a more powerful agent.
Shadowmere is one of my favorites - you have to unearth his tomb via a Labor challenge (he is tied to a POI similar to Baron Greywind), then capture and sacrifice a hero to him(or perform a very difficult ritual), then he's available. He can summon shadow minions and creates powerful undead military units, and can also perform "remote challenges" within an ever expanding area from his base as he spreads his corruption. His combat abilities involve draining the spirit of heroes, making him perfect for corrupting. As his corruption area expands he becomes more and more powerful, but he can't travel outside the corrupted zones (unless you power him up). However, he generates massive threat and heroes will try to shut him down with powerful campaigns. He has alternate stats and recruit requirements if you select him in Scenario Generation. ALSO he can be uncovered by Heroes and then he starts his campaign of terror by himself, and may even be defeated by heroes before you get a chance to recruit him.
Unfortunately, we have no art for him so he's represented by a generic floating Shadow (like many of our agents unfortunately).
Heroes as Agents come in three varieties. One is the possessed hero, which retains its class and gains a bonus based on the possession type - they lose all special skills but retain their attributes. The second is corrupted heroes who have fallen and come to your side, they stop leveling and swap to a "corrupted class" based on what they were gaining abilities for that class. Weak classes give very weak evil abilities, but high level specialist classes given by Orders can have fantastic ones. The third is if you corrupt the Chosen One. I'm not going to spoil that for you, but you get a nice little bonus.
When you corrupt a Hero they are "Sleeper Agents" doing quests and the like at a reduced efficiency, they give you full infiltration of all actions that they and their adventuring party are doing. You can "activate them" at any time, which can be devastating in combat or can disrupt a Quest. once activated, you can use an Agent Slot to recruit them from the Agent Recruitment screen. The lower-right entry (you will see this in the next video) lets you pick from a list of available Heroes.
Nations that ally with you NEVER merge together, they are always perceived by the world as distinct - this is important for deceiving the world and keeping heroes from learning the truth. I like a lot of what you're saying, and this has been debated back and forth on our team (of two) but we do think we're leaning less towards simulating the movement of resources. Currently nations DO send convoys to other nations that can be intercepted, but we don't want the player to have to micromanage his nations, instead focusing on the individual actions of agents.
Trade is very straightforward, a city has X trade routes - it wants to satisfy those with other trade route cities. For every route satisfied it gains 1 Trade, trade is cashed in for ANY resource or for "increased relations" between the two which can bring cultures together (bad for you). However, if trade is available but unsatisfieid it raises unrest (lowers order) - representing goods sitting on the docks and merchants being upset. We had a more complicated trade system, but there's too much to keep track of already on the map so keeping it simple worked a lot better for gameplay.
Post by: Chosrau on August 30, 2014, 02:35:37 pm
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 30, 2014, 02:40:22 pm
I feel a lot better about the whole agents thing now, I was under the impression that they were sort of throw away and you could get new ones with only a few like the baron being special.
I just want to ask will minions only be used as agent boosters or can we use them in the bigger game as sort of like disposable agents? Im just thinking what else can we move around the map and use to interactive with world. Having agents is cool but what about the throw away tools/units where you can set them on a mission but it's not to big a deal if they die.
With the trade system you said you had something more complicated could that make it's way back into the game post release ? I would so throw money at you for expansions
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 02:48:01 pm
Currently you can't "give up control", but that may make it into the game.
Sorry, Agents are your expendable tool - that's what makes their sacrifice so critical. You can "drop" some minions and leave them at a POI as a modifier (usually to hinder heroes or plague villages) and a few others can go someplace remote but that's an exception and not the rule. Agents will always be your primary tool, and their death will always be meaningful. Keep in mind that Agents have a time bomb quality to them, the more actiosn they take, and the more dramatic those actions are, the more likely heroes will come hunting, and eventually champions or even the Chosen One. You'll be outlawed by kingdoms, bounties put on your head, and eventually killed - all for the greater good (evil).
You pretty much move Agents and Commanders, that's it - making use of your limited resources is the strategic nature of the game.
Post by: Jalak on August 30, 2014, 05:39:59 pm
Also, when a clue is left behind, either leading to you or an agent, do the heroes that find these clues go on a "quest" where they travel to different parts of the world (most likely shadowing an agent) and get slowly closer to figuring things out (assuming they don't get distracted)? Or is it more of a case where each clue adds to some sort of vague "threshold" where, if the number of clues collected go beyond it, they figure things out and hunt you down? Is it also possible for a hero to find a clue, not know what to do with it (or care) then just throw it away? I don't suppose there's some sort of agent "conspirator" you can have whose job is specifically to make sure these left clues don't go anywhere, or distract the heroes who have them.
Post by: Cthulhu on August 30, 2014, 05:52:21 pm
Like "The Rake was trying to poison the town's water supply with a pack of goblins" or something. And then if somebody else has seen the rake doing something else they can put those clues together and get a better picture of what's going on. I might be totally wrong.
But it does sound like there are useless clues and ways to disrupt clues and such. I distinctly remember hearing that the Rake can commit horrific but senseless acts of violence to create high-priority dead end clues that distract heroes from what's actually going on.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 06:59:43 pm
As far as ignoring them, some clues can only be obtained by people sensitive to that type - for instance a warrior would have no idea what to do with an Arcane clue and would simply ignore it. Most clues are simply "digested over time" by heroes, but other clues require "Lore" to be used in order to research the clue. Stopping heroes either at the point of the clue, distracting them with misleading clues, and corrupting points of Lore are all viable strategies.
You're dead on with the Rake's ability, he starts a series of pointless ritual murders that distract people. Very, very useful if you want to cast a long ritual spell nearby and need to be without distractions from annoying heroes. Another example is one of the Peddler's default traits (which can be acquired by others) which lets you shift the blame for an action to a Hero that is wanted by the kingdom or part of a hated culture. Seeing a scapegoated hero get lynched is one of my favorite events.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 30, 2014, 07:05:55 pm
You can gain elite units, you can train your crappy goblins to be capable fighters, or you could rely on more powerful agents and ritual spells to turn the tide. In general, the forces of the world are much stronger than you, but if you want to push for early military victories you'd need to be sure to isolate your enemy and strike them while they're weak. The big issue is that for each action you take to strengthen yourself militarily, you are sacrificing actions that could be taken in the world at large. It's all about the opportunity cost, and a balanced approach between the two seems to work best.
The more typical scenario involves the gradual decline of the human forces over time as you wage proxy wars with smaller orc tribes, lizarmen, and other demihumans even while they face famines, refugee problems, and political discord.
Keep in mind that this game takes place over a short period of time, it is very costly for the human nations to raise new trained units. When an elite unit dies for the human players, it is gone. The interesting part of the game is that losing a "war" is often a good thing for you, as long as you've weakened them in the long term.
Post by: Jalak on August 30, 2014, 09:08:37 pm
On that note: how common are heroes supposed to be? Do we have the potential of finding one on each POI, or are there only a half a dozen heroes worth mentioning? How strong can they get, anyway? Will ignoring and being ignored by a group turn out to my ultimate advantage (in not having to deal with them until I'm ready) or theirs (in them becoming too strong since I did nothing to stop their questing)? How hard is it to kill them, by questing in "black" POIs or direct confrontation?
Post by: Ghazkull on August 31, 2014, 05:27:26 am
Meanwhile the heroes are slowly getting behind who is responsible for all of this and you just turn the clues around casting the elves as the perpetrators of that ritual and make it look like you tried to stop them. Which causes "The Alliance" to instead ally with you against the Elves. Would something like this be possible?
Post by: Jalak on August 31, 2014, 06:02:28 am
Edit: Actually, you raise a really good question of how the alliance system works, namely in regard to how other nations and heroes react to it. Now, judging by the way you've spoken about it before, I'm assuming that the alliance isn't "absolute" when it forms, as it takes time for heroes and nations to follow the Chosen One to war, much less recognize a threat to their very existence. It stands for reason that some nations, organizations and heroes wouldn't have a lot of motivation, or even evidence, to drop everything and join this new alliance.
So, let's say that there are two countries not in the alliance; one corrupted by you and the other "clean". However, both are allied with each-other conventionally or have some other sort of obligation to help each-other out. Now, the alliance forms and figures out that the corrupted one is working for you and attacks.
The clean nation has now found itself obliged to help their "friend" in their hour of need. Hell, from their point of view, this alliance has just made an aggressive, completely unprovoked attack against their allies. Clearly, the reason for the creation of this "alliance" is just some excuse being used to wipe them all out!
So, yeah, an alliance of several major powers suddenly rising up to support some "prophesy" of vaguely defined doom would scare the other powers quiet a bit, especially since, from their point of view, they are all following the word of one extremely charismatic man who may even be a bit insane (How do they know the prophesy of doom isn't referring to THAT VERY SAME HERO!?). It would be pretty neat if a sort of "neutral bloc" of some sort could form between closely-tied nations in order to counterweight this sudden super power and protect their own independence and interests. The Elder God could even try to encourage other nations to join in on this isolation and convince the world the Chosen One is just some nutter.
Post by: Lukeinator on August 31, 2014, 06:57:14 am
Post by: jhxmt on August 31, 2014, 07:08:10 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 31, 2014, 10:59:42 am
In the North Burns the game currently starts with 30 heroes being randomly spawned, this number is absolutely subject to change and is still being balance. Right now I'd say about 2-3 of them die to random causes, and another couple end up too critically injured or mentally unbalanced to be effective, so its a little over 10% that will get neutralized without your interference. If I play to just throw up random obstanes everywhere I get that number up to 30-40%, but the Heroes that survive are stronger for the challenges and level up a bit faster. We wanted it to be tactical in who you pursue, and what objectives you choose to defend.
Avoiding a group vs dealing with them is actually an answer I can't give, I'm not sure what the ideal strategy is. If you just pursue your own agendas you'll bump into enough heroes that you don't have to go looking for them, which often leads to that scenario where you are plagued by 3-4 recurring Adventuring Groups which you end up handling, but then there are some other heroes who have little idea of who you are but get summoned in to help when an Agent's threat gets too high.
I will say that having a balanced view of the world through infiltration is essential to finding and targetting the groups that are working on campaigns you want to stop. To give an example, there is a long campaign that returns the dwarves to their homeland in the mountains north of Cylaria - if this happens they begin to upgrade the weapons and armor of Cylaria, they fix the High Gate and close it to your minions, and all adventurers involved get a perk. Very, very, very bad - especially if you are going a war route through the north. The process of this campaign involves a hero meeting with the dwarves down south, then a grand meeting of adventurers, then they go off to get some artifacts, then they go to the mountains. Havin infiltration at ANY of these key points, or on ANY of the heroes involved, or on the KIGNDOMS that the heroes ask for help from will let you see this campaign is going on.
Heroes in the right configuration and level are difficult to kill by standard agents - but if you come at them with The Baron and some Giant Minions you can pretty much crush any low-medium hero with ease, and then a higher level hero might flee with an injury (which is semi-permanent). Heroes (and Agents) heal slowly over time, so wounding them is a great way to get yourself some breathing room. If you played the game to Kill Heroes, you'll be able to "build" an agent appropriately - there are also agents specifically meant to murder heroes and they are very good at what they do.
You can't ever "be a good guy", this was part of a system that we lost because it was too complex (though it will be a stretch goal for KS). However yes you CAN trick the heroes and other nations into going after other benevolent powers, especially if the cultures hate eachother. However, Agents can be seen as allies of a nation and heroes - they can gain "Welcome at Court" which means they are friends of the nation, and they can donate gold, food, and even mercenaries to show their support for the king and gain some influence. One of the main benefits of this approach is that if a hero comes tot hat kingdom to say "that agent is working for a dark power" he may find himself ignored, jailed, or even beheaded. In addition, if you get attacked there, the Royal Guard will come help you in battle.
Jalak you really nailed our idea behind the Alliance - it is a response to something dire in the world, but to those who don't share the same belief they look at it with suspicion. This is the suspicion you need to leverage to ensure that the Alliance remains as weak as possible, and you also don't want to be too overt with your powers which may convince the other nations that they are also under great threat.
The Alliance can target a mundane threat, and then dissolve - it can also simply dissolve under discord and lack of threat which makes nations hesitant to form an Alliance in the future.
Post by: Oscuro1987 on August 31, 2014, 11:11:46 am
Post by: Lukeinator on August 31, 2014, 11:20:38 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on August 31, 2014, 11:59:19 am
You mention heroes going on epic quests to stop you and use dwarfs as a example, what happens if you corrupt a dwarf nation can you go on your own quest to bring them back to their homeland and use them and make them evil?
Post by: sjm9876 on August 31, 2014, 12:49:06 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 31, 2014, 04:38:39 pm
You CAN give quests to heroes via a Leader's decision - when a leader choice comes up you see the many options he has, and you can push him towards a particular one with your influence. This is a key component to disrupting politics in the world. More powerful when it fcomes to launching quests is manipulating Orders, any heroes part of that order will respond to your quest, which can even be a call to kill a particular hero/leader.
About corrupting the dwarf nation - we don't have events of that type because we split "Agents do Challenges" and "Heroes do Quests" as the blend of proactive actions vs reactive. However, when the quest happens you may interfere with it - which can result in positive responses. Results like the dwarves are lost along the way, or a great evil arises in their ancient homeland (clearly derivative) which can then aid you, etc. So this brings in the "Reactivity" element to the quests - interfere with the heroes agenda to your benefit. Proactively you can perform your own challenges to create new situations, such as having your corrupted dwarves raise an elite unit, cause them to become hostile to magic, or use your magic to work with them to forge a mighty artifact - things heroes may come to stop.
Post by: Jalak on August 31, 2014, 08:58:45 pm
How thorough do you need to be when you influence a nation for it to be under your control anyway? Not just in order to tell them what to do, but to stop them from listening to anyone trying to speak sense? If I were to corrupt a king, would his commanders with the military still follow him even when they figure out something's not right, or would they need to be infiltrated as well? I'd imagine that feudal kingdoms would be one of the more straightforward ones; just corrupt every single landholder baron.
Actually, when you've taken over a nation and moved on, is it still a good idea for you to spend time lowering the order of the POIs, even though you have relative control of the area? Wouldn't it be beneficial to leave some of the core POIs in the white (or grey) just so your new "friend" doesn't get distracted from running their own nation so they can actually help you? Or am I misunderstanding how order works and overestimating how powerful a corrupt nation actually is?
Also, are there dragons in this game and, if so, are they a very powerful military minion you (or they) can command, or a potential devastating agent/commander?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 31, 2014, 10:08:23 pm
Commanders follow orders but are able to defect, either to another nation, the alliance, or to become mercenaries or bandits. IT's all about how far you want to push things, have a merciful king start slaughtering innocents and declaring war on his peaceful neighbor and there will be some questions being asked.
You did nail feudal kingdoms, it is the ONLY Government that has a "Barony" subtype per POC - feudal kingdoms are quite capable of breaking apart, reforming, and also keeping their liege in check.
Is it a good idea to lower order? Almost always - "Controlling" a nation is, as I implied above, very fluid - unless you defend the king with agents and minions heroes will inevitably attempt to bring him back to the fold, or at least make him neutral.
I can't say that you overestimate how powerful they are, because it can be a momentous moment, or it can be a waste - picking the right time to throw a monkey wrench in the gears is critical. YOu also may wish to be more gentle, making a King simply ignore his lands as they slowly waste away, fritter away gold so they can't pay their armies - less obvious paths like this can be very effective.
There are unique dragon minions available based on actions you take, and also there are Dragon based events. We currently do not support dragons in the military component, but that element of "late game unique powerful military units" is still in development so they may make an appearance.
No dragon agent, there was a Half-Dragon agent on the list but he's pushed to the potential Gods and Religions expansion/stretch goal.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on August 31, 2014, 10:09:35 pm
You don't have to respond on reddit, feel free to respond here - we really want to know what is people's number one priority since we doubt we'd hit more than one stretch goal.
Post by: Migue5356 on August 31, 2014, 10:50:51 pm
My votes would be on Rivals and then Sandbox/Endless mode.
Post by: Xantalos on August 31, 2014, 10:55:57 pm
Endless mode and procedural generation seem like good ones to try for stretch goals since they don't quite change the base structure of the game. Rivals and Gods etc could be expansion packs or DLC
Post by: nenjin on August 31, 2014, 10:58:30 pm
Catching up on all the words since I've been out of town for several days.
Dev Log #1 thoughts:
-Love the scenario generation choices. So flavorful. That's like, Dominions 4-level fluff. Delicious. Also glad to hear you've played KoDP, it's one of the most flavorful dialog-based games I've ever played.
-A secondary window explaining some of the background bonuses and trade offs would be helpful. Like how when you select an Elder One, you get that window overlay. Dominions 4 does that for the nations, which have the brief blurb, then the full detailed descriptions. The flavor descriptions seem adequate enough, but I don't think they necessarily correlate logical to what they'll do. Maybe that's how you want it, so people have to explore their consequences of their choices (much like KoDP), but as deeply a strategic game as this is I'd want that information going in. Even just generics like how you described it in the the video, put to text.
-What would you say is the average level of expertise that you're aiming for with regards to modding? Is it just modifying data file templates, or is LUA scripting part of it? That sort of stuff. Because the first thing I'd want to do is mod in the 40k Chaos Gods.
I'm generally satisfied as far as randomization goes. KoDP was much the same way: fixed maps, random tribes, random relationships, circle leaders, ect...that makes it a game I can fire up at any time and feel like I'm getting a true fresh start.
Stretch goals:
1st - Procedural/Genealogical Generation for Random Worlds. I think it adds what is the most valuable to long term gameplay. In terms of replayability, I don't think much can beat the combination of random location + factors for how it works on the imagination.
Gods, Religions, and Cults. While something I'd definitely want, it's slides to second because, in a way, I like that you're really the only power in the world. Although having a religion for yourself does seem like a no brainer.
Endless Mode/Sandbox Mode. I wouldn't say no to it, but I think I like the entire arranged game concept more than the pure simulation. At least so far. On the other hand, you did say the game takes place in a relatively short period of time. If we're talking one game is about the length of a board game of "Arkham Horror", then Endless Mode is definitely more of what I want....because I tend to hate really strict timelines in games I'm enjoying. When I'm enjoying it, I want to stretch that game out to the nth degree. While meaningful choices, consequences and deadline make for a good narrative and compelling gameplay, I sometimes dislike how content feel cut off because the game is so strict about its deadlines.
4th Rival Old Ones. Similar to #2, I don't really want someone stealing my thunder. You are THE Great Old One, and frankly heroes and nations and alliances sound like a handful already. I think I almost actively don't want this, but I assume it will be optional.
Anyways, yeah, bring on the second dev video, can't wait. I realized I've wanted a game exactly like this, as I went back to my "Games I'd make if I could program" doc and saw "a game where you play as Sauron and try to stop the Ringbearer."
One question though. How easy would map replacement be? I'm not sure I'm ever going to like the current state of the map visuals (no offense), and I've seen some pretty amazing things done with custom Dominions maps and I think this game would be a shoe-in for things like that. A static image file can be tweaked, tiles replaced, ect....Sort of like Dominions, sometimes if art isn't your forte you can rely on the internet to unleash their talent on your game. The map is the only thing I don't like about the game in its entirety...and with a really nice looking map I think it'd seal the deal on the visual presentation.
Post by: Jalak on August 31, 2014, 11:01:18 pm
1) Cults and Religions
2) Random Generation
3) Endless Mode
4) Rival Elder Gods
I admit, it was a close call for the first two, but it sounded like you already had a pretty good idea on what you were going to do with religions, so that seems like the one you're most likely to finish the fastest. As opposed to the Randomizer, which sounds a lot more complex.
Three more questions before my curiosity is completely (temporarily) satisfied :D.
1) Is there going to be naval based combat, along with naval-specific POIs and boats needing to built/hired/taken for sea-based travel, or is it really only a graphical difference from normal land routes with a cursory "start-in-port end-in-different-port" move option?
2) If the Chosen One dies and you're not actually responsible for it, or don't even know the hero you just killed/corrupted was actually him, do you get notified by a little pop-up saying "You feel the winds of fate shift" or something? Or is the only real indication that happened would be when you find the next one and the only hint would be when you realise that he's not as strong as he's supposed to be?
3) Since you said a Chosen One is picked immediately after killing/corrupting the last one, and you've hinted before that you can capture heroes, does that mean that I could, theoretically, capture the Chosen One, stow him somewhere "safe" and just leave him to rot in the dungeon while I go around doing my own thing without risk of some uber-hero messing with me? Or is it a case where captured heroes slowly go insane/starve so, eventually, the Chosen One will clock out and a new one will be chosen then. Either way, it sounds like a good strategy (assuming he doesn't escape first).
This last one is more of a suggestion, really. Assuming you haven't done so, I think it would be a good idea for there to be some sort of quick "rename" button next to heroes, agents and other important characters (kings, guild masters, etc.) in the info screen. This is so that if I come across someone that I get attached to (or as much as I can to someone trying to kill me) or already has someone else under the same basic name, I can just change it to something with more flavor. You could even use it to rename the "heroic" type ones to something more sinister when you corrupt them as well. I know you said that there's a editor, but I'd rather have a quick, easy option rather then switch to an entirely different menu that, since it's an editor, accidentally make me see something I shouldn't when I'm just to add more of a personal touch to things.
Edit: Actually, another question for the Chosen One: How powerful is he compared to a hero of the same class/level? What sort of boosts does he get, and what sort of abilities/actions can he can take unique only to him?
Post by: nenjin on August 31, 2014, 11:54:49 pm
Post by: Neonivek on September 01, 2014, 12:20:24 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 01:17:38 am
Ok, let me answer some questions:
Map Replacement - drag and drop. Fire up the editor, load your file, drag off the background image, drag on your new one. You'd doubtless need to move around the POIs so they make sense again, unless you just made an exact to scale copy of the given map that you are replacing. It really is that simple.
Yeah the map... I don't know... we spent literally 6 monthes of time going back and forth on map styles. This is what we could do with our time, money, and talent. I am a terrible, terrible artist and our maps either tended to be too abstract or too cartoonish. This was a good compromise, and I'm generally pleased with how it looks. Would we ever replace it? Procedural generation will REQUIRE a tileset to be functional, so that will necessarily produce an alternative map. Finding portrait artists is easy, but finding 2D tile artists who can capture the type of look and feel we want is surprisingly hard.
On a side note, as much as I initially was wary of everyone wanting Procedural Generation, we did a POC this morning as I described it and I kind of am sold on the idea. The major hurdle is graphics - thankfully the POI system once again makes the kind of algorithms you need to do genealogical generation shockingly simple. Endless mode still doesn't really hold much of an appeal, but seems very popular - I'd love someone to try and sell me on the idea so I can better implement it.
Additional information on the Old Ones... I'm mixed? I do want, as you were saying, a bit of the mystery to their play - but in actuality their is a standard ability tree once you get in game so it may just be unnecessary obfuscation. I'll make a note on the Tester's feedback form to review, but it will be low priority because we obviously are cramped for time now. Maybe I'll just drop in the ability tree view as an overlay?
The modding is simple, simple, simple - think of the Civ 4 In-Game editor, it's that easy. We dump to XML via helper classes for every object, and any serialized variable can be affected and called in the editor. We do NOT have Lua scripts currently supported, it was always our intention to go back and add that in but it has fallen by the wayside - but the level of functionality you could GENERALLY achieve with lua scripting is accessible in the editor. I think people will generally be happy with what they can achieve, and if not we have everything exposed so it's relatively trivial for us to extend modding support even further.
Funny that you mention "Be Sauron and Stop the Ringbearer", I would say the true genesis for this idea, even outside of its pandemic-style branch, was the board game War of the Ring - which did such a good job of marrying theme and mechanics that I just sing its praise to anyone who will listen.
More questions!
1) Naval Combat actually doesn't exist right now, we still have to develop it (all things military were the last elements to be added). What exists today is Naval Zones, which (if a nation has a boat in) you can convoy over - great for rapid movement. Naval battles will be core in most maps, given how rapidly it allows you to move troops. It's much, much, much simpler than land battles, pretty much "navies contest eachother" and whoever wins controls the zone. Auto-blockade for hostile ports, etc.
2) The Chosen One cannot die without your interference, fate has a plan for him - even if that plan ends with you slaughtering him. Any quest he is involved in that you do not contest he at the very least "Succeeds" at it, even if not overwhelmingly. However, if he does die by a passive effect of yours, let's say you left an Orc Assassin at a POI and he quests there and the Assassin gets him (VERY UNLIKELY unless he was already hurt severely) you get a message popup informing you of his death and giving glory to the minion who did it. You will absolutely be informed.
3) You can capture the Chosen One - capture assigns that Hero to the agent who captured him who can then torture him, perform rituals, sacrifice, drag him back to the Seal for a little dip in a pool of evil, etc.... however, and this is really, really fun - it generates a Threat Quest for all heroes, especially friends, and if its the Chosen One the threat is HIGH. So that agent is going to have a ton of people hunting him down to rescue the Chosen One. Some minions grant traits that drive captives insane, but mostly they just stay with you until freed or "dealt with", though they can also trigger escape events under certain circumstances.
On another note, you can "imprison" heroes if you infiltrate the Guardhouse of a city, or if you are Welcome at Court. They generally sit around until released, sometimes with a negative attribute gained, although you can also "have them executed" as another action. These actions, as usual will raise suspicion and create threat quests in that area. Pulling strings is always dangerous. It's useful because it appears on the Challenge screen, so if a hero is getting "too close" you can have your corrupt guards toss him in the dungeon.
Honestly I didn't want people to rename heroes and agents, but my business partner convinced me it made sense. So yes, you can just click on their name and rename it. Can't rename Kings though, just Heroes and Agents. I could add the same thing for kings as well.
Oh man, you really want me to spoil the Chosen One? Well he gets early a "hidden" trait that is called "Fate Wills It" where he always passes quests. We wanted him to be at an advantage, but not be a definitive Chosen One. So he'll have a string of successes but so could another Hero. He gains additional skill-ups and has a higher rate of learning traits and skills, but this is all again non definitive elements. When he gets to level 4 (each class has 3 levels, so 4 is his first Tier 2 Class) he gets a unique ability based on the class, and this is when Prophecy quests begin to pop up. The most important one is where he "accepts his destiny" then he starts gaining his obviously chosen one abilities, and where special events start triggering around him and with the Old Ones. Late Game he's a beast, having gained double stat gains for 9 levels, many traits, tons of friends, powerful spells (all depending on his archetype) - and his special events are game changing. For example, he can declare a "Haven" for people which makes a single POI immune to all of your abilities and drastically increases its order. Very, very annoying depending on wisely the AI uses it (right now I'd say it's not ALWAYS the best hoice by the AI but we're working on that). He can also follow high level campaigns that may bring him to be the King of one of the nations, to discover an ancient weapon that was sonce used against you, to ascend to another plane where he returns changed - there's 6 right now and each one is pretty brutal.
If you want more I can give a list of some of the abilities, for example as a Dragoon he gains Ardent Defender which means he defends ALL heroes who wish to be defended in a battle. It's a little hard to imagine why that's good right now (until you see Dev Video 3), but in combat mages go down in one hit - but they are guarded, having one extremely beefy hero blocking all damage to their mages can be enough to lose a battle.
The last thing I'll say about the Chosen One is he has a fantastic event chain with Sisyphus, very fun to play out.
Yep, I get what you're saying about feedback. ALL major events pop up on the right side of the screen - even bigger ones actually appear in massive text on the screen itself (like "war"). But there is some room there where events may go on without your knowledge, such as a hero dying or going insane - this may occur as part of their random questing and you won't know until you bump into a crazy hero. I think that's going to remain, otherwise the amount of information coming in would be overwhelming. "heroes" are really pretty mundane until they hit a level of fame where you always see them on the map, think of them mostly as threadbare adventurers when they're at low levels.
The other element of feedback, to be specific to what you said, is that they list why. So if Cylaria declares war on Aventura, they will post a list of provocations so you know "oh hey, I made that happen." You will see that regardless of infiltration.
Infiltration is mostly to see internal political maneuverings and to see what heroes are doing. So in the example above, you saw "War was declareD", if you had infiltration in the capital you would FIRST see a "Political Summit" where they decide what to do - with sufficient influence you can push them to war, though they may also declare war of their own accord.
Aside from politics, it will show you Quests and Campaigns. Ignoring quests can be "ok" as a strategy, but Campaigns (large multi-step quests) are where you want to know ALL of them if possible, and plan to stop which one most affects your strategy.
Post by: Xantalos on September 01, 2014, 01:23:06 am
Post by: nenjin on September 01, 2014, 01:32:48 am
Post by: Jalak on September 01, 2014, 02:47:14 am
Are there any spells or rituals you can use that curse artifacts that other heroes are currently wielding and how likely is it that heroes can discover that they've just been tampered with? Are cursed artifacts also available to "gift" to various national leaders as well, or is it an agent/hero only thing? Is it possible to create your own (without using the editor, i mean) and infuse various bonuses and curses on them? If I can, is it a case where you could "balance" an artifact so that it gives a bonus to whoever wields it, but also hurts them at the same time (like, say, a ring that makes it easier to sneak around but lets me know where he is)? Hell, an artifact with a balance like that could even make it less likely for a hero to figure out its cursed, since it has such a great "benefit".
Speaking of Spells, are there any rituals in the game that drastically change the face of the world (maybe even literally) and pretty much signal the "end times"? I would love being able to open gates to oblivion all over
By the way, I don't suppose you have any room for more play testers? I swear I won't immediately run off into the blackened sunset, cackling madly about my "precious" (at least until I conquer the world at least twice....maybe three times). I have a lot of time on my hands right now.
Post by: Lukeinator on September 01, 2014, 06:10:15 am
Will there be a mac version?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2014, 08:56:44 am
Would it not be possible to do non-tile based map generation? Generating random landmasses with some constraints and using an algorithm to determine the layout of terrain?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 09:55:03 am
Cursed items are in the game, and yes there are certain heroes who are sensitive to it and will help the other hero get rid of a cursed item - though often that requires a quest. You definitely can create artifacts with a curse that still have a beneficial effect, though it doesn't function like an editor there are simply a few base choices.
A ritual that opens up gates that spawn demonic armies all over the place? We have exactly that - several rituals of that caliber exist and, just like you said, they spawn massive threat which leads to fantastic dramatic battles to shut them down.
Plague is actually part of the Death God who is "put aside" for balance purposes, it is extremely fun but just extremely hard to balance.
Because our builds cycle through the features I need people to test, it's hard to add new testers who aren't already familiar with the game and where we're at. I'll definitely reach out here before anywhere else when we're ready to add a larger group, which would probably be around the time of the demo.
On other map generation methods - not really feasible for us. There's the now famous minecraft method, there's voxels, and more traditional 3D terrain generation - none of them would be able to plug and play into our system. As for algorithmic generation of a 2D image, you can see on our DevLog some early results for that and they just didn't work out well.
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 01, 2014, 10:23:25 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 10:49:36 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 01, 2014, 11:16:38 am
What sort of rewards are we going to have ? You already have $100-150 from me :P
Post by: TTHSK on September 01, 2014, 04:21:26 pm
Stretch goal (http://www.reddit.com/r/ThatWhichSleeps/comments/2f4xp0/stretch_goal_priorities/) preferences as requested (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg5623433#msg5623433): procedural, endless, cults, rivals. Cults before endless if it's possible to setup a 'long' game without the endless mode.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 06:51:37 pm
Woooo KS this month if I'm correct when the kickstarter comes out this will be released along with a demo ?
What sort of rewards are we going to have ? You already have $100-150 from me :P
Alright so the Demo was originally supposed to be out already, in fact last weekend - then we got the RPS article and a ton of followers so we threw some more money into the game and updated all the GUI visuals, added some effects, and started redoing some of the AI systems. The end result is our actual demo build is so far behind we don't want to release it - but I don't think given what's on our plate we'd be able to finish the demo and launch the KS this month.
What we decided was we'd finalize features for testing this week (which we are doing now), get that out for a week for bug fixes, spend the week after preparing KS, launch KS, and then try to get the demo out halfway through. We don't want the KS to push any further because a lot of metrics suggest launching closer to Christmas is a terrible idea, and also we want to get the money, if any, for improved assets as soon as possible so as not to delay our Q4 launch. Hopefully people will be interested enough without the demo, but if not they'll stick around long enough to see the demo in action when it's released.
We're talking this week about the Tier rewards, I'm a huge fan of "in-game" rewards like naming Heroes, Countries, and Agents as well as working with us to make new abilities and scenarios, but my business partner sees those somewhat as a "cash grab" and thinks we should limit ourselves to some physical rewards and then the more usual round of digital rewards like soundtrack, wallpapers, extra copies and the like. Not sure if you guys have an opinion on this - suggestions are always welcome.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 01, 2014, 07:02:32 pm
One solution I have seen before is one tier list of physical rewards and one tier list of digital only rewards
Post by: nenjin on September 01, 2014, 07:09:37 pm
We're talking this week about the Tier rewards, I'm a huge fan of "in-game" rewards like naming Heroes, Countries, and Agents as well as working with us to make new abilities and scenarios, but my business partner sees those somewhat as a "cash grab" and thinks we should limit ourselves to some physical rewards and then the more usual round of digital rewards like soundtrack, wallpapers, extra copies and the like. Not sure if you guys have an opinion on this - suggestions are always welcome.
I see this two ways:
#1: Physical rewards are an inducment to pledge. But because there's so much overhead involved, you're actually getting LESS than the pledge value if it does in fact motivate people.
#2: I just got back from a wedding, where they held "the dollar dance." It's an excuse to give the bride and groom money, with the sort-of-reward of getting to dance with them for like a minute. I see in-game names ect... as that kind of thing. You give those rewards because they're easy to accomplish, and really it's just an excuse for someone to pad their pledge a little.
Lastly, people making merch for their completely new title has always struck me as putting the cart before the horse. Well-known games can get away with making money on swag because there's brand recognition. For completely new IPs? I'd think it'd be a huge money and logistical sink with no real guarantee of paying out at the end.
That and lots of Kickstarters have wasted tons of money in their production and distribution chains, because they weren't prepared for how much that stuff costs to manufacture and ship.
So my take is: screw physical rewards, it's the junk food of Kickstarter. I think a nerd's heart is more drawn to seeing their name in game, designing monsters or POIs, and all that stuff that costs you guys nothing but your time to do.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 07:20:06 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 01, 2014, 07:29:49 pm
Post by: Kaitol on September 01, 2014, 08:11:30 pm
(Also, Sauron was a two bit magician with a tiny army. Melkor/Morgoth though, now THERE'S an evil overlord.)
Post by: Jalak on September 01, 2014, 09:31:46 pm
Well. I imagine part of the appeal of physical awards is, that even if the game somehow is a huge disappointing mess that you hate, at least you have a spiffy model/map/artbook/misc.swag to show for your cash.
I think it would more likely serve as a reminder of what you just wasted your money on, from my point of view anyway.
So, yeah, my vote is on in-game rewards only (unless your referring to that collectors addition crap that Mass Effect 3 pulled with the "pay more for another character for your game only" at game launch. Of course, I fell for it since I was so sure Mass Effect 3 would be worth it...It wasn't).
Edit: So on a happier tune, two more questions; these ones about how the quest and infiltration-order systems work.
When a hero accepts a quest and goes off to do his thing, what are the ways they can actually fail it (besides dying)? How determined are they to get things done? If a hero consistently fails a part of a quest due to getting their asses kicked every time they come across that Orc Warband or whatever (whether you're personally intervening in that failure or not) do they just give up and do something else, or is literally a "do or die" thing for them?
Also, when you destabilize the order of a POI or corrupt a VIP (for given value of important) is the infiltration permanent, or is there a "fading" effect of the infiltration/corruption going back to the status-quo over time? Is it a case where, so long as no one goes out of their way to specifically raise the order or stop the corrupted VIP (such as a hero on a specific quest to do just that), that POI/VIP is going to be "mine" forever until someone tries to challenge that?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2014, 09:42:00 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 10:10:59 pm
Campaigns are multi-stage quests that have specific requirements, but they also have an added component of "level of victory" - if the heroes beat all 5 quests in a large campaign they get the best ending. They fail all 5 they get the worst ending (yay for you).
When you do something to destablize it adds as Condition with a type, types stack and increase one another - generally they have a timer where they will go down, but others have an "until X occurs" condition for them to end. Corruption of a leader or to gain influence depends on the type - some of them are "Expended", some of them are permanent unless heroes undo it, some decrease over time. The easier it is to get the influence generally the faster it will go away, whereas very complex actions will result in permanent effects.
Post by: Jalak on September 01, 2014, 10:18:23 pm
You mentioned before that you get more powerful the more "awake" you are. Is there any real reason to try not to be? I remember you said that a sage would find it easier to follow ancient clues to you and make anti-elder spells more effective. Is there any way being dormant would be to your advantage, or is it simply a case where we could, but it doesn't compare to the sheer power you would have by being awake? Also, if you were to try and take over the world very openly, fail, but have the alliance take out your scapegoat and disband, is it possible to gather your strength for a comeback or would the heroes and nations be too high level by that point, since you need to catch up to them by scratch.
By the way, what happens if all your agents/commanders die? is it, essentially, a game-over?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 01, 2014, 10:24:28 pm
Honestly the game can go in so many directions I find it hard to say what's the "right thing" to do, but all actions have an opportunity cost to them, and figuring out when it makes sense to pursue a particular course takes multiple replays.
If you were to do it "Very Openly" it would be past the point of making use of a scapegoat, scapegoating works when the primary threat is being represented by either a particular agent or a powerful nation. If that were the case, and your forces were defeated, you can absolutely make a comeback - in fact it's my favorite early game strategy. Recruit the Orc Warchief, raise the orcs up as strong as possible, burn Aventura to the ground - the orcs will die, but as long as you played it safe in regards to your abilities then when the Warchief falls the nations should relax. (usually)
If you have no agents and no nations the game continues, but your chances of winning are pretty low unless it's late game and you are already devastating the world with floods and pestilence.
Post by: Jalak on September 01, 2014, 10:56:41 pm
From the sheer amount of choice of what you can get your agents to do, the reaction they get and the general goings-ons about the world, the sheer dynamics of this game seem so great that, when the demo comes out, most players will probably have no idea what to actually do for even their first action.
What sort of tutorial is there for this game anyway? Is there a hint system? Maybe some sort of encyclopedia/logbook you can look at and even write notes in to keep track of everything? Maybe I'm just looking too far into this since you've been explaining all the mechanics of this game, but it sounds to me that there is going to be some serious commitment required from players just to keep track of everything important happening. I can imagine the first few games a new player would have not even get to the "conquering" part simply because they have so much difficulty keeping track of all the infiltration aspects of the game.
Don't take this as outright criticism, I want this game to succeed so badly, I'm just starting to get an idea of how too much choice can actually be a bad thing.
Post by: Sartain on September 02, 2014, 02:37:13 am
Woooo KS this month if I'm correct when the kickstarter comes out this will be released along with a demo ?
What sort of rewards are we going to have ? You already have $100-150 from me :P
Alright so the Demo was originally supposed to be out already, in fact last weekend - then we got the RPS article and a ton of followers so we threw some more money into the game and updated all the GUI visuals, added some effects, and started redoing some of the AI systems. The end result is our actual demo build is so far behind we don't want to release it - but I don't think given what's on our plate we'd be able to finish the demo and launch the KS this month.
What we decided was we'd finalize features for testing this week (which we are doing now), get that out for a week for bug fixes, spend the week after preparing KS, launch KS, and then try to get the demo out halfway through. We don't want the KS to push any further because a lot of metrics suggest launching closer to Christmas is a terrible idea, and also we want to get the money, if any, for improved assets as soon as possible so as not to delay our Q4 launch. Hopefully people will be interested enough without the demo, but if not they'll stick around long enough to see the demo in action when it's released.
We're talking this week about the Tier rewards, I'm a huge fan of "in-game" rewards like naming Heroes, Countries, and Agents as well as working with us to make new abilities and scenarios, but my business partner sees those somewhat as a "cash grab" and thinks we should limit ourselves to some physical rewards and then the more usual round of digital rewards like soundtrack, wallpapers, extra copies and the like. Not sure if you guys have an opinion on this - suggestions are always welcome.
Physical rewards are anachronistic and unnecessary in my opinion. I don't think people really give a shit about soundtracks, artbooks and all that crap that usually comes with various boxed special editions. Maybe if your product had a long history with it's fanbase some physical stuff to display would be cool but I don't really see the value of it when your product is new to the market.
I'm generally a much bigger fan of in-game cosmetic rewards, like getting to create fluff or names for regions, heroes, religions & whatever.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 02, 2014, 04:18:19 am
-Snippity-I don't think this'll be the case tbh. The most direct choices I've seen at any given moment is 4 at a time at start up. Past that, the choices are less pushing, and many of the mechanics sound like things that make enough sense they don't require actually learning. Then again, without having played, I can't comment on the actuality.
Post by: Lukeinator on September 02, 2014, 06:10:01 am
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2014, 09:25:10 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 10:03:28 am
You know, looking through all these posts about the mechanics of the game and whatnot, I'm starting to feel a bit nervous about how this game is going to turn out as a whole. I don't mean that the entire project will be a disaster; the fact that you already have most of the game playable speaks for itself in how great this is going to be. The problem I'm seeing, though, is that there looks to be too much game.
From the sheer amount of choice of what you can get your agents to do, the reaction they get and the general goings-ons about the world, the sheer dynamics of this game seem so great that, when the demo comes out, most players will probably have no idea what to actually do for even their first action.
What sort of tutorial is there for this game anyway? Is there a hint system? Maybe some sort of encyclopedia/logbook you can look at and even write notes in to keep track of everything? Maybe I'm just looking too far into this since you've been explaining all the mechanics of this game, but it sounds to me that there is going to be some serious commitment required from players just to keep track of everything important happening. I can imagine the first few games a new player would have not even get to the "conquering" part simply because they have so much difficulty keeping track of all the infiltration aspects of the game.
Don't take this as outright criticism, I want this game to succeed so badly, I'm just starting to get an idea of how too much choice can actually be a bad thing.
The game is actually shockingly simple to play - I am a fan of games I can play "quickly" so that even if there is great depth I can figure out my strategy, implement it, and see the result - and our design reflects that. Despite all the questions we've had on this thread, we haven't actually discussed how you "play the game" which I do spend an entire video on (Video 4) going over.
In brief, there are two major player use cases that make up 95% of the game. 1) Challenges 2) Combat. When an agent wants to do ANYTHING he must do a challenge, which takes time based on his skill vs the difficulty (modified by the POI) - which is represented at the bottom of the screen when you click on any agent. The agent sits there, performing his challenge, and while doing so Heroes may be drawn to investigate based on the fame of the agent, threat, and a few other factors. If the Heroes find the Agent, they may attack him, bringing you to combat - or you may decide to attack the heroes - or even more likely if they are about to discover you, you mihgt say "forget about it" and move to another spot. That's the core of the game, a relatively simple mechanic.
The meat of the game comes from two things 1) the variety of actions emerging from a challenge and 2) the AI. The AI is fairly unique in how it behaves, and also because you can "interfere" with any action it will take, but you will never have so many "infiltrations" going on that it will be overwhelming. A lot of this AI work is meant to be in the background, it's meant to create a realistic world that you don't have to "game" to understand, you can pursue your strategy and expect the world to react relatively as you would expect.
The variety of actions is certainly something that is more gamey, but is again part of learning the game organically. Maybe you rush to ally with the Necromancer's Cabal and give your minions Necromancer minions, and then you see what options that brings - maybe you ally with the Storm Giants and see how having high threat but high power minions works - it's strategic, gamey, but also should be easily understood because we deal with typical fantasy tropes.
I think you may have gotten a distorted impression of the game based on the questions being asked here - people have been asking about a lot of fringe cases, and yes those are possible but they are part of the very tightly integrated "challenges" and "combat" mechanisms. Let's take hero capture for instance. How do heroes get captured? Random percentage knockout on kill, utilizing special skills, having them be the last combatant and immobilized (all part of combat) - what does that result in? An "enhancement" on your agent with Status "Captured Hero" set to the hero, also showing the fame and threat of the quest being generated. Want to torture him? When you do an Infiltration challenge it checks "has Captured Hero == true" and now you'll see that as an option - want to Corrupt him at the Seal? IsLocation == OldOneChannel (coding term for any place that channels the old ones power) and has Captured Hero == true. Most of the complexity, as you can see, emerges organically - the game is as complex as you let it be.
You can choose to play it as thematically as possible and barely concerned yourself with the "Gamey" aspects, or you can figure out the min/max method of rushing the most powerful agent. It's completely up to you.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 02, 2014, 10:23:00 am
Post by: Jalak on September 02, 2014, 10:32:30 am
It's hard to get a feel for a game just from description. That's why you should release the demo.
This guy clearly knows exactly what he's talking about and you should do what he just said. I think the whole world will be better off if you just give in and hand over that demo!
Speaking of, how many features in this demo are we going to see compared to the final product?
Also, with what you said about how your agents do their things, does that mean that as long as no hero comes along to mess with them, they can't actually fail whatever action you're trying to do and the only real issue would be dealing with the suspicion, magical "costs" and how long it takes when deciding if it's a good idea or not?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 10:47:59 am
The last demo build we have is probably 65% feature complete given what we have added, what we are locking in for features now is about 80% of the expected features - but that isn't representative of total "functionality" given that the "main features" are the core of the game and render it fully playable. Most features that remain to be implemented are the niche cases we've been discussing, though also there are several Military and Naval components still up in the air. Of course, some things are still in flux and are subject to change (always for the better I hope).
I hate random % success rates, so yes without interference your agent ALWAYS SUCCEEDS at his challenge - instead of a random percent to succeed it simply takes more time.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 02, 2014, 10:50:32 am
Also, @ demo, it's certainly best to have a representative demo than a rushed one. A bad demo will put off more people than waiting :)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 02, 2014, 11:14:10 am
Also, I don't know how you want to answer this, but how did you design the AI? Just a decision tree or something more complicated?
Edit: And thanks for being so chatty! You are loading the hype trains full of coal!
Post by: sjm9876 on September 02, 2014, 11:22:24 am
Post by: i2amroy on September 02, 2014, 11:38:18 am
Edit: And thanks for being so chatty! You are loading the hype trains full of coal!Indeed, you've managed to get me on board for the game (and KS). :))
And yeah I agree with others. The best kickstarter rewards are always things like "name an NPC" (with approval) or community choice development voting (where you present 3 or so different next things to add into the game and let the players decide which should be added), as well as just access to the game. Having talked to other people who have done kickstarters I will say that handling physical goods is a pain and is definitely a lot of stress and money being taken out of your funds. Pretty much the only thing I actually dislike more is kickstarter-only non-cosmetic DLC content (course I don't like normal DLC stuff either). Having an extra pretty skin or badge is a great thing from a kickstarter, having access to extra agents would not be.
And yeah, it would be nice to know if this is Windows only or if we'll be seeing Mac or Linux versions. I'm going to support either way, but my mainline computer is a mac. :P
Post by: Jalak on September 02, 2014, 11:51:53 am
Pretty much the only thing I actually dislike more is kickstarter-only non-cosmetic DLC content (course I don't like normal DLC stuff either). Having an extra pretty skin or badge is a great thing from a kickstarter, having access to extra agents would not be.
Although it would be sort of funny if the agent-dlc was put in, only for everyone to realize that you could get the exact same agent by using the editor that the game just gave you.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 12:21:28 pm
Initial Release - PC, we have officially added support for Linux as well because we have tested Linux builds and expect to have little difficulty with the full port and I also conceptually like supporting free software. We've used open-source equivalents whenever possible to develop the game, with the notable exception of Unity (and Windows). Mac... is another issue - I've never used a Mac or ported to a Mac - if significant interest exists we will explore it after release but I wouldn't be too optimistic given the amount of "after release" things we want to get to.
Yeah, DLC of that sort would simply be able to be worked around - and I hate that approach as well. We want to be open and let people build the world they want, not restrict anyone.
"How does the AI work" is quite the question, I FULLY intend to write a huge technical writeup on Tigsource at some point - but it is mostly a decision tree with strong state mechanics. There are really three "interesting" (somewhat) mechanics that allow the AI to work the way it does and I'll go over them briefly here.
One is the idea of desires - leaders and heroes have drives that they want to pursue, but they will put them aside for other matters given the state of the world - but keep that desire bottled up long enough and they may make a more impulsive decision along that route as well as losing spirit (expressing their cracking will). It's a unique way to "suppress and frustrate" heroes and leaders, and to allow the AI to operate smartly but also still express its personality. Put a king who just wants to have a peaceful reign under constant pressure of war and he might crack, torment a hero who loves his friends with their death and injury and see him give up the sword.
The second is that the AI is "reactive" in that it maintains its state without recalculating the state of the world. We wanted to simulate that most days are just status quo for a leader - not every King is concerned with expanding his realm. They have a value that triggers how often they "recalculate" their position in the world and what they should be doing, and also some other actions can trigger this recalculation. How far back up they move in their decision tree depends also on their adaptability - an excellent leader will, on even a slight provocation, return to the base "what is the state of my kingdom" while a lesser leader may go from ->Increase Military->Raise Levies to ->Increase Military and then recalculate from that, possibly to ->Hire Mercenary Company. Only a much greater stimulus will force him to rethink his approach. This allows your agents to have some leeway in their actions, while also making it "interesting" who is ruling each nation.
The third is that Leader Available actions aren't "peer equivalent" to the player, meaning since the game is highly asymmetric we had some freedom to build a more interesting pool of actions for leaders. Instead, they have a list of possible actions based on their stats, their culture, and their nation. These actions are a good blend of mechanics and theme, allowing a King of A Feudal Kingdom to "Call up the Banners" and raise his barons to war, let a Slaver State equip its Slaves for Battle, or have a Lord whose Family is Cursed seek a Sage to End Their Troubles (which of course can be one of your agents for more fun). By blending the necessary traits between personal ,cultural, and government we ensure that you can't quite be sure how resourceful a given Leader will be, but you can have a general idea of what resources he can call on.
On the technical side we handle it like a "deck of cards" - each leader has his list of actions (each one being a class) - and he checks the "state of the world" vs "his desires" and finds a few likely options, he then proposes them internally (or externally given his state) - if you have infiltration you can vote on/influence the result, otherwise the event occurs based on who has the highest influence (advisors tend to be rational, the leaders tend to favor their personal traits).
No custom AIs as in changing the operation of logic - we did not go the Lua scripting route that is so popular - I'm going to say we "should have" as we were originally going to but I declined because I worked extensively with Lua on a military simulation project and found that while it was extensible it actually lowered our efficiency at producing quality results when it came specifically to AI. But then in the Editor we've replicated so much of LUA when it comes to exposing and manipulating variables that I should have gone that route - but too late for that now.
Customizing AI instead consists of modifying traits and adding events (as noted above). Want your AI to raise a horde of Chaos Warriors from the Abyss? Add an event for a specific culture/trait, set it to a cooldown or conditional, have it create an army of X type units - and the AI will grab that whenever possible. Make it 100% desirable with a 4 turn cooldown and then every four turns the leader will summon his chaos legions. More... subtle... events are also supported.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 02, 2014, 12:26:49 pm
Post by: sjm9876 on September 02, 2014, 01:26:47 pm
And the editor, from what I've heard, seems far more accessible than any scripting. TBH, I think it was the right route. Will there be a central hub for scenarios, where they can be voted on etc...?
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2014, 01:30:55 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 02, 2014, 01:38:00 pm
Though by 'a while' I meant ever since the video came out :P
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 01:58:43 pm
New microphone so the audio quality is improved, and I'm sending Video 3 out to the same sites today (maybe tomorrow).
We will use SteamWorks for a central hub for scenarios and game mode mods as I've used it in the past and it's supremely easy to implement with the structure we have - but for people not on Steam they'll have to rely on a community created hub.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 02, 2014, 05:49:03 pm
We will use SteamWorks for a central hub for scenarios and game mode mods as I've used it in the past and it's supremely easy to implement with the structure we have - but for people not on Steam they'll have to rely on a community created hub.
I was wondering how this would go. Steamworks is definitely a good choice, I was worried it'd be something mostly community-driven like on a forum or something. I feel like that kind of setup wouldn't get much modding fun done on a smaller-scale project.
Anybody already thinking about stuff they want to put in? >:o
Both of my ideas are weird and might not even be feasible in the engine. One's like Scabiel the Maker of Ruins (http://i.imgur.com/ZI5ra.png) in Dominions (Another great source of inspiration for something like this. The maps also look kind of similar. You could probably take the .tga files from dominions and plug them right in)
Aaanyway, but I was thinking of him as more like some kind of World Breaker Space God. No seal (if that's possible) and instead when he's at full power a ritual can pull him down from the sky at a location of your choice. So there's no stealth involved but he smashes POIs and throws the world into immediate holy shit. Then he starts rampaging. That could be cool if it's doable within the engine.
And the other idea was more of like a god within thing, some kind of parasite essence over mankind as a whole. No seal or godbody at all, but at "emergence" people all over the world start going Cthulhu-style insane trashing everything and eating each other and turning into monsters. Like the zombie thing I guess but the zombies are stronger in exchange for there not being an actual god.
I dunno how defeating that would really work. Probably lots of rituals and stuff. I can see what you meant about zombiegod being hard to balance. Might be more for a long-gestation Azlan kind of god where it takes forever to get to that kind of point but if you do it's probably too late to stop you.
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2014, 05:56:50 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 02, 2014, 07:14:13 pm
One queston that's been bugging me is the turns. How much in-game time passes over the course of a turn on average? I heard the game lasts like 5 hours or so, how many turns would that come out to be?
Post by: bulborbish on September 02, 2014, 07:22:17 pm
...and I want to make a campaign that leads to a massive set of artifacts behind Mount Rushmore to make a national treasure joke.
Post by: Xantalos on September 02, 2014, 08:13:19 pm
To be honest, the moment this was announced I started of trying to figure out how to implement a variation of the game on a map of North America. Granted, I mostly want a demo to get an idea of scale of the entire game and how much of the map it makes sense to utilize.I'm not sure I could stay alive in a world where Nicholas Cage is the chosen one.
...and I want to make a campaign that leads to a massive set of artifacts behind Mount Rushmore to make a national treasure joke.
Post by: nenjin on September 02, 2014, 08:16:19 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 08:40:06 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 02, 2014, 08:43:39 pm
100k Stretch Goal - Nicholas Cage voices every Agent...
Post that on every website you're advertising and I wouldn't be surprised if you got the money for it.
Post by: bulborbish on September 02, 2014, 08:57:11 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 02, 2014, 09:02:21 pm
Post by: i2amroy on September 02, 2014, 09:03:03 pm
Anybody already thinking about stuff they want to put in? >:oyou.I'm thinking a steampunk overhaul would be pretty sweet to do. 8)
Post by: bulborbish on September 02, 2014, 09:48:13 pm
Is one possible result of an event chain for heroes that you can spawn a new hero in their adventuring party? Because if so, there could be many events that result in receiving direct aid from ancient heros. You could even have it spawn an adventurer that "defeated" you in the last scenario, and give him a tag that makes him realize that you are returning easier/make him know how to slow you down.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 02, 2014, 10:04:46 pm
Post by: bulborbish on September 02, 2014, 10:08:21 pm
I think you're going at it with the wrong goals in mind >:o
Well, we already know you can get agents. I was just wondering if heroes could get new allies, since it was on my mind.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 10:17:32 pm
However, events do have triggers to spawn heroes and it's actually a pretty importance occurrence. For instance, the elves start with no Champion on the map, but if they get antagonized they spawn several powerful heroes. As for your specific circumstance, you can make in the editor a "spawn hero" call that you can pass any number of settings to - anything not set will be randomized based on culture and global settings.
Post by: Jalak on September 02, 2014, 10:45:39 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 02, 2014, 11:19:15 pm
Possessed heroes gain abilities based on the possession, nothing special from being "Corrupted" - they tend to be a bit weaker but the possession is much easier to pull off. There is one Agent who is himself a possession (think corrupted artifact that takes over its host). Possessions can be undone much easier than corruption as well.
When Heroes become leaders they remain on the map, but leaders not in their capital have reduced actions available to them - so it's a choice by the AI if they want to get down and dirty still. Leaders leading armies give it a nice morale boost, and their presence makes friendly POIs much more secure - so their are passive benefits as well to them leaving the capital.
If a leader is captured or otherwise incapable of command his advisers will take leadership actions for the nation - one of their possible actions is to replace the leader with another leader if necessary.
Post by: Jalak on September 03, 2014, 02:17:28 am
I admit, though, the idea of a council member or president suddenly running out to kill things with a sword would be hilarious.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 03, 2014, 11:43:13 am
Post by: Jalak on September 03, 2014, 12:26:34 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on September 03, 2014, 12:35:22 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 03, 2014, 01:26:57 pm
Post by: Zangi on September 03, 2014, 02:01:12 pm
So, this could happen if the kingdom's heroes/generals have been dealt with/are busy/discredited? Or would the leader just randomly decide to come out anyways based on their personality?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 03, 2014, 02:55:31 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 03, 2014, 04:28:40 pm
Get off your asses and post dat shit.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 03, 2014, 06:57:30 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 03, 2014, 10:56:59 pm
Yet. :P
*twitch*
Post by: Jalak on September 04, 2014, 04:08:36 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 04, 2014, 10:09:28 am
Dear Media:
Get off your asses and post dat shit.
The marketing game combined with the waiting game makes me horribly anxious - luckily there are a couple of sites that reliably post our updates when they're pushed, but we're hoping to snag a bigger site before KS. Sending out some "Hey, you still going to post that update this week?" emails today.
As for the Chosen One, he goes through a "Accepting his Destiny" quest at a certain point, and it has additional dangers (mostly just affecting how long it takes) based on how many previous Chosen Ones there were, and though it doesn't account for how grisly their end was it does take longer if the previous one was Corrupted - and a previously corrupted Chosen One always gives infiltration on the new Chosen One's destiny quests, which is obviously very useful.
When the Chosen One is corrupted/killed, a new hero of lesser level gains the mantle and must go through his Accepting his Destiny quest.
Hero's CAN retire but not from age - it is possible to get them to give the adventuring life by demoralizing them, and you can force class changes by removing values from characters. For instance, one of the "worst" classes is sellsword, which is an amoral hero that simply goes after gold based quests and gets very mundane abilities. You can "force" a class switch to sellsword by isolating a hero from friends or by having him betrayed by the cause he champions.
Retirement isn't in the picture because the amount of time that passes is meant to be relatively short, perhaps a decade or so. The game world is meant to be more static than something like Civilization - the resources that exist are what is available to be used and once expended are difficult or impossible to replace which breeds a different kind of strategic gameplay.
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2014, 10:16:14 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 04, 2014, 10:34:38 am
Well, you could do an end run around the marketing, and just give Bay12 some demos to play with ;)
I also support giving bay12 demos maybe even before everyone else ;)
Post by: Jalak on September 04, 2014, 10:49:01 am
Also, when you say that the resources are all there is, does that mean that these resources eventually run out (without your intervention, i mean) and the world will eventually descend into "resource wars"? Or do you actually mean that the resources that we see are "infinite" in that they will always be there, but there are no more resource "nodes" to discover, unless through event?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 04, 2014, 12:25:36 pm
By resources I meant more along the idea of Armies, Heroes, Population and such - when you smash a human army and destroy it's elite cavalry it is unlikely in the scope of the game that they will be able to train an equivalent force. This kind of "attrition" is part of the strategy of the game. Those elite units and champions are devastatingly powerful and like I've said in the past if they ever worked together the nations would be unstoppable, at least at the START of the scenario - making sure they squander those resources before they begin to war against you is a great strategy.
However more literal resources are also finite, a farmland village will make 2 food - that number can be augmented slightly (good administration, druids blessing it) and of course destroyed by you (burning farmlands, destroying the village, or more passively by luring away the menfolk through forcing a levy) but all in all the world is as developed as its going to be. There are no new villages to found for the nations, they aren't growing like in Civilization they are more along the lines of Europa Univeralis - expansion must come at the cost of their neighbors. Their are exceptions to this of course, The North Burns contains a large contingent of tribal nations (depending on your choices), these nations can "modernize" somewhat or also "unify" and these major Campaign events are part of the game's mechanics.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 04, 2014, 12:31:58 pm
Modern armies =/= medieval style armies...older armies did have kings and other leaders actually with the troops on a regular basisSee: Battle of Hastings
Is this a counter point or in support of my statement...confused lol
Post by: Cthulhu on September 04, 2014, 12:54:53 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2014, 01:24:36 pm
Quote
We added a Bay 12 Event in to the game
Mission accomplished. Part of our ongoing effort to ensure there's a little bit of DF in every game out there.
Post by: Xantalos on September 04, 2014, 01:30:01 pm
You put Boatmurdered in the game didn't you.QuoteWe added a Bay 12 Event in to the game
Mission accomplished. Part of our ongoing effort to ensure there's a little bit of DF in every game out there.
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2014, 01:32:02 pm
Post by: TempAcc on September 04, 2014, 02:03:37 pm
Our ongoing efforts to put a bit of DF in every sort of fantasy themed game ever seem to be going well, since it seems to happen even with games we have no influence over, such as diablo 3 and WoW :P
Post by: nenjin on September 04, 2014, 02:15:32 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 04, 2014, 02:26:57 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 05, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Also, is the demo going to include the other map shown at the beginning, the Black Sea one? How different is that map from the "main" one and how different are the starting scenario options for it? Do you get to play with different elder gods, or are the options all the same, just leading the "locations" that the start options change depending on the map?
Post by: Majestic7 on September 05, 2014, 12:54:36 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 05, 2014, 01:40:11 am
I actually talk a bit about opening strategy in the second video, which has not yet been posted (I will be posting it tomorrow if it still doesn't go up). The most confusing part of the game for the player is that the entire map is open for you to work with - you can summon your agents into any spot on the map and set them to work. However, it also simply lets you pursue the strategy that appeals to you, ally with that nearby orc kingdom, try to overthrow a republic and plant one of your agents in control, foment war between two nations, start trade wars by encouraging guild growth, burn farmlands to create an international famine, hunt for ancient artifacts inside ancient ruins, rush to get a powerful agent and leverage his abiltiies, and of course my favorite "assassinate every king in the game" - it makes the AI so paranoid.
A little concerned that no channels are picking up the videos (except RPGWatch), so we may be putting together a trailer next week - if I post it here first you guys want to give me some feedback so I can quickly make any edits before sending it out?
No demo yet - it's probably a month out. Only The North Burns will be in the demo, the Black Seas is actually a testbed for Guilds and Naval movement/combat, which is still being fleshed out. The AI currently has some difficulties with anything outside straight military convoys, and it's easy to just move agents between ports without problems. The Black Seas will undoubtedly show up in some form, but I think it will be adjusted to match a stronger overall theme. We are working on another Scenario that involves an Empire and its colonies, but content is ahead of development at this point (due to KS planning/marketing).
Post by: Majestic7 on September 05, 2014, 01:52:44 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2014, 05:18:58 am
Also Azlan can apparently fully absorb reality into his dreams and remake it from the ground up, which is more than a regional effect.
Post by: Little on September 05, 2014, 08:42:45 am
Can we please please please see the maps? (At least of The North Burns?)
Post by: Little on September 05, 2014, 08:58:34 am
Post by: Jalak on September 05, 2014, 09:21:03 am
Are there any rituals that you can do that have a longer, passive effect on the world? I don't mean long-term as in, say, causing a one-time blight to destroy crops and the subsequent fallout screwing everyone over later, but more like various spells that have an active effect for as long as the ritual is "active" such as lowering order, making people go insane etc.
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2014, 01:20:30 pm
Quote
if I post it here first you guys want to give me some feedback so I can quickly make any edits before sending it out?
Yeah we can do that.
Also, and I'm speaking as someone who wants the videos, I'd just post them. If people haven't posted them by Noon wherever they are, chances are they'll do a 5pm release if it all. Put another way, it doesn't seem like anyone is eager to get the scoop on video #2, unfortunately.
Post by: Xantalos on September 05, 2014, 01:23:38 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2014, 05:12:23 pm
Fun fact, this thread is #3 on a Google search for TWS.
Post by: Jalak on September 05, 2014, 10:59:00 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 06, 2014, 04:49:09 am
Keep in mind that some of the assets you see there are Alpha and what we are looking to replace.
As far as rituals that have long-lasting passive effects, oh yes - quite a few. We designed the game to have those type of important conflicts, where you are struggling to finish the ritual and heroes are drawn to stop you.
Post by: Xantalos on September 06, 2014, 05:40:22 am
Post by: Jalak on September 06, 2014, 06:12:51 am
I do, however, have a small issue, in that I think that the music you had in the background was a bit too loud. It became a bit distracting at times and I sometimes had to reverse the video when the music started drowning out what you were saying every now and again.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 06, 2014, 06:27:15 am
Post by: ERICdb on September 06, 2014, 06:42:51 am
On a side note, I agree with the OP. We already know that the music is great, and since the point of those videos is to show us how the game works, I also have to say that it may have been a little too loud. In my case, English is not my first language and sometimes I found it hard to follow your voice during the explanations.
Nevertheless, good job! Now we just need more coverage and some crowdfunding! ;)
Post by: Jalak on September 06, 2014, 09:20:07 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 06, 2014, 09:37:24 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 06, 2014, 09:42:27 am
Post by: sjm9876 on September 06, 2014, 11:16:07 am
1) The map feels rather dead. The wagons and the like on roads would be a rather important difference if you can get them.
2) Would it be possible to make the POI names on permanently? I feel it would improve clarity somewhat for someone new to the map to at least have the option.
3) Is it possible to view which towns the cities are drawing resources from?
4) Not sure I'm too keen on the Enclave idea, but personal taste.
5) Music was a touch loud.
All in all, looking good though :D
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 06, 2014, 11:37:42 am
Bad Mic, Loud Music - eventually I'll get this right...
Map feeling Dead - It's a concern to us, and we do have some plans to alleviate it but they're on the backburner for now
POI Name Displays - Their is a setting to make them permanent, as well as a setting to show the relevant value when a unit is selected (Military
Units shows defense for every POI, Agent selected shows Order)
We did add showing the amount of resources being delivered onto the city screen, we had it that way originally but reversed it so that instead it shows on the Village Screen (where it's being sent from) vs Domestic consumption on the City screen - but just recently we decided to show it both places (in the tooltips) - so for example Aventura would not show -2 Food it would show +1 (+4 from villages, -1 to Supply the Border Guard).
You aren't the only one to dislike the Enclave, it's split about 50/50 - you either love it or you hate it. Personally I love the idea of tricking their neighbors into provoking the Enclave and creating a real problem, the other element is that the Enclave produces a LOT of lore and has a Cabal of which their leader is the only Master of Portals at the start of the game which has a very powerful teleportation-like ability. However if you don't like the Enclave you can choose the 'smite their homeland' origin choice and that entire island is gone from the game.
Post by: Jalak on September 06, 2014, 11:47:59 am
Post by: nenjin on September 06, 2014, 04:14:21 pm
There's just so much to like about what you're dong here. Here's my critiques and praise in no particular order:
-You're right in that the game presents much better than stills. Everything does blend a little nicer, the birds, the pulsing shields and the banners help break up the stillness of the landscape. But more can be done, as you say. Grass and trees swaying, sand, snow and dust blowing. The smoke from towns animated instead of static.
-I like the cloud borders at the edges of the map. IMO, you could go full opacity with them to fully conceal the map edge.
-On the topic of clouds, some drifting ones over the main game space might be nice, and again help bring some life to the map. Maybe even add cloud shadows. But because you need to see the map at all times, you'd need to be able to mouse over the clouds and suppress them and the cloud shadows so you can see what's there.
-The water is begging for some animations and detailing.
-The very hand-drawn nature of the land masses both works and kinda doesn't work. (I've drawn a lot of maps in my day so those lines are familiar to me.) They're not so sharp when you're watching it at 1920 x 1080, but they're still noticable. And in screen shots they really stand out starkly. I think you need to soften a lot of the edges, points and wedges down.
-Your reason for going with hand-crafted scenarios is now apparent, and bravo. The question is, how can the player get plugged into this knowledge to exploit it. It's great if you have all this intricate detail to explain why the world is in the state it is at the beginning. But that's a lot of history to sort through. Will all this be part of some scenario synopsis, or revealed through game? How will this information be retained once you do know about it? It seems like playing off different Kingdoms' historical hatred of each other is going to be a big part of strategy.
-I wasn't able to really see the movement controls, or whatever you were aiming at, when you were showing the Prophet moving. Not sure what was up with that.
-The music was a little loud at times, as others have said. No problem for a fan, a bit much for a new person.
All in all, very exciting, much hype, such wow. You're managing the complexity of it extremely well, and I think the boardgame-esqe nature of it helps a lot with that. But I love how you've gone a step beyond what a lot of strategy games do and added an entire sub layer of AI and world activity, and come back around to give the player many options to stick their nose into that simulation in fun and thematic ways. I'm the kind of gamer that often wants more open-ended interactions than highly abstracted ones, because highly abstracted choices don't work as well on the imagination. And it would probably be the same here, if it weren't for all the reactivity that plays off your narrower set of choices. I guess what I'm trying to say is, each piece by itself doesn't carry all of the interest. But when you string them all together, it becomes pretty magical.
The money cannons are loaded and ready to fire.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 06, 2014, 08:34:19 pm
As for the map - yeah there's a lot of little extra that could go into it to make it more living map but we won't really be revisiting those extra effects for some time. I do believe that with a few extra "Bells and whistles" it will get us to that next level.
It's hard for us to do anything too special with the water because it's all part of that "single sprite" that makes up the background due to the licensing restrictions of using Campaign Cartographer. We examined a few extra steps to give it a little depth and we'll probably review it when we review effects on the map as well.
We did play with softening the edges even further, but it's another one of those QOL issues that you can play with forever so we won't be returning to that for some time - the feedback is definitely appreciated though because we do need to know what direction to move in.
The big question of "how does the player gain the immersive history" is addressed by three methods, one of them is 'custom actions' that we add in for the scenario for specific cultures, nations, or guilds - another is "event intercepts" that turn a regular action or event into a special event (think of them as the descriptive events that pop up in Europa Universalis) which contains history and more specific intent.. The third way is simply through mechanics of the game, by designing a world with these cultural issues, consisting of particular nations with leaders that have well-defined personalities a player will develop, through repeat plays, a sense for the world that a dynamic map can never achieve.
I was showing when the Prophet moved two things, one is the marker for movement (not that interesting but some agents can make multiple moves per turn, sometimes specific to naval or flight) and the other was that the bar of actions at the bottom changed based on the POI he entered. Depending on where you are, you have different challenges available to you based on the POI - and you'll see that inside the challenge type you have a variety of actions you can take based on what is present inside of the POI. There's a guild here? Infiltrate it. Already infiltrated it? Overthrow it.
Glad you liked the feel of it, hopefully you'll see even more to like in the upcoming weeks.
Post by: lemon10 on September 06, 2014, 08:56:14 pm
On the ancient one overview screen, the abilities all look visually the same whether you have unlocked them or not (besides the small icon on them). It seems to me that it would be better if you changed the color depending on if you had unlocked them (eg. locked abilities are grayscale instead of full color), or did something else more visually distinctive (eg. make the icon cover almost all of the ability if you have it locked). Similarly you have the full red bars with the abilities, it also seems like it would be better they filled up as you gained more power.
It would also be neat to have different mapviews (eg. one that lets you see the map as broken up into nations, one that lets you see the map broken up by nations types (eg. Uncivilized, civilized, orcs), by their relation to you (eg. controlled by you, have no knowledge of you, wary of you, part of the alliance), one that shows you areas where guilds are powerful, ect). I am aware this might be a problem, as I am unsure if the nations in the game actually own any territory besides the POI's, but if it was possible it would be very nice to be able to take all that information in just by looking at the various map states.
Post by: Xantalos on September 06, 2014, 09:14:09 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 06, 2014, 10:48:04 pm
Ok so the idea about dulling out the locked abilities sounds great, but I don't think I'll be adding in the bar increasing - there's just too many little things to perfect that (given variant percentages for both abilities) that I'll probably just leave it as is.
Mapviews is the big one - we actually have a LOT of ways to vary what you see on the screen that simply aren't represented on the GUI. I could put together a quick preview video of it if you're curious. The big thing that DOESNT exist is shading the entire map in different regions, the POI system makes it really easy to add/remove/move POIs, to create mods, and make use of any resource to make a map - adding in regions would take a step back from that ease. A few of things that you can do right now:
- When you click on an agent, show Order on all POIs, when click on HEro show Danger on all POIs, when click on Military Unit show Defenses
- Show all Institutions(cabals, guilds, orders) on top of the POI on the map
- Show all effects (unrest) on top of the POI on the map
- Show cultural or population percentages on the map
- Show all travel connections on the map separated by color for different types
- Show trade routes and flow of resources separated by color/number for different types
- Show the level of Infiltration on a given POI
- Show the POI awareness/suspicion of your rising
I'm sure I'm forgetting some - we're trying to integrate them "smoothly" into the game wherever possible, but I'm guessing many will rest on top of the minimap when the game launches similar to how most modern strategy games handle map overlays.
As to what you specifically were saying about showing if a POI is in the alliance or under your control, the shields that pulsate a light black pulsate a brighter white when that POI joins the alliance, and when a POI joins your side it gains a dark black border. This seems to work well, but then again I am very partial to the Shields representing the POIs and I know at least a few testers preferred our earlier "regional" maps. There's something about looking over the POIs that makes me really want to destroy the world, moreso than an EU style of regions.
The other thing you brought up was a way to see which nations are Uncivilized, Civilized, Monstrous - this is actually something in the works. You may notice that the banners and shields do NOT match up. We originally were doing 64x64 shields based off a template back in the Alpha, because it was easy to do and we needed 50+ shields. However, once we started throwing money at the art assets we starting getting some high quality 1024x1024 textures for the banners. The idea was to take these and render them onto one of four shields types, the shield shape you see all over the place would be for Civilized, a Circular Wooden type shape would be for Uncivilized, and a Hawk Wing shield for Monstrous. It really won't take us that long to do this, but we haven't really seen it as a priority until post-demo.
I also wanted to point out, because I failed to do so in the video, that the Alliance and those who Ally with you operate under different structures depending on certain actions. How formal your "alliance" is can be determined due to events and challenges and it will change not just superficially the name (which you can modify) but the level of integration the nations will have as well as some other bonuses/penalties.
Post by: Jalak on September 06, 2014, 11:18:41 pm
Also, I looked up the term "Hawk Wing Shield" and all I got was either a very fancy looking shield with wings sticking out of it, which didn't seem right considering what they are supposed to represent in-game, or S.H.I.E.L.D from the avengers...great now I can't stop thinking about them being in the game somehow. Throw in some pseudo time-travel event. It's Marvel, they'd totally have the avengers fight elder gods somehow (actually, they basically already have haven't they?).
Post by: ERICdb on September 07, 2014, 03:00:41 am
-The new UI is really great although I have the feeling that now it doesn't merge as well with the map. What I mean is that the UI seems minimalistic and "modern" while the map seems more an ancient scroll. Maybe it's just me though. :P
-The UI for the Old One it's also great, but since I'm a big fan of symmetry I find odd that the Agents and Political views are symmetric while the Overview isn't. I think that, like it is in the left part, a black background gradient should be in the right side.
And one question:
-Is there a scrollable zoom-unzoom option? I haven't seen any. I can understand that some POI or agent images aren't HD and zooming in them could be horrible, but unzooming wouldn't be so bad in that sense and I'd really like to be able to see all the map at once to appreciate the destruction and chaos my machinations are causing.
Post by: ScriptWolf on September 07, 2014, 06:33:22 am
King if we focus a lot of one of the none human nations e.g. Orcs or dwarfs would it be possible to build them up into a civilised nation and have them expand and become a force as big as what the human nations are ?
Post by: Jalak on September 07, 2014, 06:54:17 am
We could call it the "bay12 demo-demo". Unpolished and not complete, sure, but we're dwarf fortress players. Turning bugs and incomplete features into integral parts of the game is something we do, expect and, sometimes, demand!
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 07, 2014, 08:13:46 am
Yeah that UI, that map - we could iterate on these a thousand times and never be happy. Generally I'm resigned to the fact that it's not "ugly" now, and its very functional. The design I wanted to go with was more thematic, if you ever played Dragon Age: Origins you may remember their menus were sinuous shapes that were given an aura, and then shaded themselves out to a half-transparent black. Very good look and one I would have loved to use for our UI.
The Old One UI isn't quite done, that big open space at the bottom of the overview is meant to have a more nefarious looking black border that snakes between the two sides linking them - though I agree with you that when I go back to add that in their should be a black border added to the abilities. Thanks for that.
You can zoom out about 100% from what you saw, it disables all the mouseover stuff and places the POI shields in the middle of the POI and much larger so you get a better sense of the entire map's political state. When you have a battle it actually does "zoom in" on the POI and blow out the heroes/agents involved to the edges.
haha, sorry I've been calling it a "hawk wing shield" it just has sort've a violent frill at the edge - not sure where I got the term from.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 07, 2014, 12:59:44 pm
If you have sufficiently corrupted a civilized nation, it does become feasible to create a world-spanning empire but it is incredibly difficult in some scenarios. For example, in the North Burns you have only two nations that could possibly take on this task , Arden and Cylaria (MAYBE New Caledon but I've never seen that happen) - Cylaria would be a strong ally as it borders nations you can easily control, allowing you to naturally combat Arden - managing a victory here would almost assure you the game. However, Cylarian culture is heavily paranoid of foreign influence, shadowy infiltration, and in particular orcs. Even if you were to corrupt the King, his Feudal Barons are a powerful check on what you can actually accomplish - and fomenting a coup with your agents would be met with hostility from the aristocracy. Put simply, the situation isn't amenable to this approach (but you can do it, with varying levels of success based on what build we're on - even a small change in the AI or importance to a statistic can tip the scales).
Next door you have Arden, a cutthroat nation of mercenaries and profiteer slave-drivers ruled by a military dictator. Yes, obviously, this is a much easier nation to bring over to your side. However, it doesn't have the kind of cultural bonds that Cylaria does - maybe you do coup the King, install your own Agent and create a Dark Empire. Revolution would almost certainly follow, with several regions breaking away, and then you are threatend by Cylaria desperate to reclaim their ancestral land, New Caledon who loath your breakaway status, and possibly even Toln or Aventura, both strong enough to combat a weakened state, even The Theocracy of Olm on your southern border may join in if they believe in that your agent is driven by an Old One. This is definitely a "fun" route to take, but if you aren't properly prepared with other mechanisms it may be a fruitless exercise.
Of course, all this really does shift with each AI build we do - we also are constantly building in new Actions, some of which can greatly push a nation in a given direction.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 07, 2014, 01:04:44 pm
But bring on vid 3 :P
Post by: Jalak on September 07, 2014, 10:55:13 pm
Also, when it comes to the various clue you leave behind, do the heroes immediately pick up on them (assuming they to recognize them for what they are) when they're in the same POI when it happens, or do they have to be looking for these clues at the time for them to notice, like if they were just "passing through" when something suspicious happens, they don't react, but if they were doing a quest in that POI or looking for an agent, they would? Also, when a hero with a clue dies or gets corrupted, what happens to the clue itself? Do they destroy the clue or does it get "dropped" for someone else to find?
Post by: Vgray on September 08, 2014, 01:59:07 am
Post by: GobbieMarauder on September 08, 2014, 06:12:59 am
My big question is about winning. We've seen Azlan's ritual thing, but do any of the other gods have unique win conditions? Are there generic win conditions they all share? How many skulls does my skull throne need for the game to clap it's hands and go "good enough?"
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 08, 2014, 01:47:12 pm
Clues aren't really picked up (I know I keep using that phrasing) they are simply "perceived", and they remain there as well with some degradation from being perceived by a hero. In other words, an Identity clue dropped by The Rake performing an Infiltration act has a Strength and a Complexity - its strength declines over time and once it is at 0 it vanishes. High strength is easier to perceive, so if the crime was just committed anyone (relatively) will be able to see it, after 4-5 turns only a master investigator would be able to act on it.
Heroes have a passive ability to perceive clues and can also search - so if a hero is "Hunting an Unknown Agent" they will perform two very important actions 1) Search a POI for clues and 2) Inquire with other Heroes if they have any clues of that Agent. Passively the strength has to be quite high, but certain clues and hero's(abilities) have a great sympathy. Diviners (a mid-tier class of the Sage archetype) have a high ability to find Prophecy clues, for instance.
If they die, all their clues are lost - if they haven't told anyone else then it's essentially gone forever. There is a SINGULAR exception to this where heroes can summon up the dead, but it is pretty buggy right now and may get cut. If you corrupt an agent you can instruct him to spread misinformation as long as he remains a passive corrupted agent (you haven't activated him to the main map).
Necromancer Old One (he has abilties over Undeath and Disease) will absolutely be the full release - he is just so absurdly broken right now that we didn't want to spend more time getting him ready for the initial release.
Black Ink splotch is an interesting idea, we may explore that - we had ORIGINALLY darkened the ambient light on the map, and the ncities/villages each had a light source. As you corrupted them, their light source dimmed and you left the world in shadow. It didn't really work out so well, but some variation of that may return.
Burning the map would be awesome - if we had actual resources to develop our maps art style that would have been a great aesthetic choice.
Their are several ways to win, but most of them do not have "win conditions", what they have is special conditions that essentially guarantee a win - these particular actions will be challenged greatly by the heroes and the Alliance if they know your identity. It IS possible for them to think you are a different old one and try to stop a win condition that doesn't apply.
Post by: Vgray on September 08, 2014, 03:35:31 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 09, 2014, 01:31:45 am
Edit: Just had a thought about hero corruption/possession. You implied that the process is reversible. If that's true, then what are the consequences for the heroes post-darkness, if any? Do they have a generally lower will, no friends anymore, a criminal record or bounty left over from their time messing with everyone else?
Post by: nenjin on September 09, 2014, 10:43:16 am
So in a turn you have 1 or more but not many actions. Is one of those actions "Send crows to this POI and start Infiltration Level 1?" Can that basic level of infiltration ever get rooted out by heroes? Does it decay over time? Because it seems to me infiltration if it has to constantly be reestablished at the most basic level will get a little tedious, and eat up a lot of actions just for the sake of not being blind. While true, maybe blindness (rather than all-seeing-knowingness of most 4x fantasy games) is part of the tactical appeal and theme (the Fellowship was often hidden from Sauron's direct sight), it's also something that can prove crippling to the overall enjoyment of the strategy. For example, starting a challenge and getting blind-sided by a hero you didn't know was there because you can't afford to spend most/all of your actions per turn shoring up your infiltration.
Post by: Jalak on September 09, 2014, 10:51:22 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 09, 2014, 01:01:46 pm
We came to this design after many, many tests - we originally had it as a "currency" that you kept up by doing Infiltration actions, and then you "expended" the currency to do certain actions or events, then we had it as a "Rumors" system where you could get more/less information based on the importance of the action and how far it was. This system offers the best combination of risk/reward, and prevents it from being tedious.
The other element added was the "using them for favors" as I mentioned above - this came relatively late but really solidified the approach. Basically whoever you have chosen to infiltrate can perform a favor, but if you use this favor it generates a quest (possibly very low threat so no one will come, but it is additive). For example, the guards can arrest a pesky adventurer, a Noble can temporarily lower the Security for Tier 1 actions, or an Innkeeper may cover up a clue for you. It's a great blend of theme and functionality while also forcing you to leverage your most fundamental plans (infiltration).
As far as actions, each Agent can do any number of things and then perform a challenge. That's not to say they will often have a lot of things to do outside of challenges - almost anything you gain adds an "action" to the challenges, this includes skills, artifacts, and imbued powers. You may use any number of Old One powers (also sometimes referred to as Ancient Powers) in a turn as long as you can pay the cost. You may also activate any number of agents as long as you have a free slot and enough Ancient Power to pay the cost. On turn 1 you will almost always summon in the three "early" heroes, which brings you immediately up to 4 challenges being performed.
All that being said, getting blindsided IS a major element of the game - we tried to invert the standard idea of heroic gameplay and lay you in the role of a stereotypical villain. Random interlopers is part of the joy (frustration) of the game, but here is how we "tempered" it. When a Hero shows up in a POI you are performing a challenge in, he doesn't immediately attack you - if the threat is sufficient he begins to "hunt down the source" of the disturbance. His skill is increased by your Profile - if you are a famous hero from publicly murdering several kings and burning cities walking around with some frost giants he will find you almost instantly - as you might expect. If you are a crafty corrupted nobleman who has maintained a low profile by performing only low tier tasks or obscuring your higher tier ones it would take them some time to find you, allowing you to finish up with your fiendish challenge and then escape.
What does this accomplish in gameplay terms? You will have an idea of when an Agent is going to be pursued, found, or otherwise forced into uncomfortable situations. Perhaps you'll only use this agent tactically, in areas you have either reinforced or have infiltration around, or maybe you'll embrace his reputation and send him with powerful minions to a trap-filled ruin, hoping to lure in and kill his pursuers (increasing his danger even further). It also adds a "time bomb" effect to Agents, forcing you into these difficult decisions instead of being able to coast with a consistent strategy.
If you get interrupted and defeat the heroes, you can continue as if nothing happened. Of course, they may rally and return but hopefully you'll be done by then. You can always opt to Flee (after 1 round of combat, and losing all your minions) or retreat (after 2 rounds, and escaping with your minions). You have two major means of casting "spells" in combat, one is Old One spells which are generally rare - we didn't want global instants being a component of the game - the other is teaching your agent spells, which once equipped can be cast during combat. Some of them are suitably devastating, though most have some kind of drawback.
EDIT: We may be making all "Champions" (powerful heroes at game start) visible on the map at all times, it currently only shows them if you have mid-tier infiltration in the capital of their country. These are your "big threats" early-mid, because they can stomp on your early agents.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 09, 2014, 03:40:00 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on September 09, 2014, 03:43:54 pm
Bets for how long it will take someone to make a Middle Earth scenario for this after release?
It is a rather perfect system and setup for that to be fair
Post by: lemon10 on September 09, 2014, 04:46:58 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 09, 2014, 08:41:05 pm
Bets for how long it will take someone to make a Middle Earth scenario for this after release?
It is a rather perfect system and setup for that to be fair
A major element of our inspiration was the board game "War of the Rings", if you haven't played it - it really is one of the best melds of Theme and Mechanics. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/115746/war-ring-second-edition
As for Trade - it may be revisited later, but I would guess the initial release would not change given how much we've done to make the current mechanic integrate into Events, AI, and the GUI display. I think you'll find plenty of satisfying methods of disrupting trade and destroying routes as is.
Post by: thepodger on September 09, 2014, 08:50:27 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on September 09, 2014, 08:52:53 pm
Post by: i2amroy on September 09, 2014, 08:53:50 pm
when demoSometime a while after the kickstarter releases IIRC, which as I recall is coming up in a few weeks (I'm sure there was a more exact date given earlier, but I can't recall it ATM).
Post by: thepodger on September 09, 2014, 09:00:28 pm
haha sorry! :P
I have not been so enthralled with a game concept since Crusader Kings or Ultima Ratio Regum.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 09, 2014, 09:38:19 pm
Kickstarter - 22nd
Demo - Sometime after the 22nd - really as soon as we can because it will be a big boost to KS
Post by: Mithras on September 09, 2014, 09:46:00 pm
On a more practical note, there was a discussion over a week ago about pooling resources between nations you had a certain amount of control over. Having read about your trade system, I wonder if you could keep the resources of each nation seperate, but pool the trade resource and the trade resource only, this allows you to avoid the rather gamey abstraction of pooled resources while allowing for a certain amount of flexibility to be maintained in terms of what each nation can produce- without taxing agent turns being glorified couriers, it's not as if you're going to use the trade to improve relations with your neighbours is it? (I assume that's a good guy only thing)
Post by: thepodger on September 09, 2014, 09:54:02 pm
When I see procedural map generation as a community choice addition, it gives me pause. A game and its systems really need to be -built- around that paradigm from the ground up.
If y'all include a good 4-5 scenarios of 10+ game hours each and release an editor, you're still going to have more game content than most of your community is going to get through, and that content is going to be hand crafted and interesting. That's the only thing giving me the heebies about this project. I don't want it to get sucked down a development limbo that it doesn't need to service a trend in gaming that the community is projecting onto a project that is not built around a core compatible with procedural content.
Procedural is great for games that play through in under an hour, games that rely on iteration and set resource exploitation efficiency. For a game with a more narrative focus, where a single scenario will last much longer than that, hand crafted strategic scenarios are vastly superior. Anyway. I am sure you're aware of that issue already.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 09, 2014, 11:36:13 pm
Oh yes, causing the frontier to be overrun with hordes is a major element of the Rome campaign - so much fun.
Trade has.... special actions if you control a friendly nation that is trading with another. I think that once you get a chance to see how trade works now, you'll see how it still allows the kind of creative freedoms without creating a tedious overlay system.
I do agree that the way we approached scenarios is the "better way", but I do also have a lot of experience with procedural generation - and when we discuss integrating it into the game the approach is actually much different than you may think. Instead of integrating it into the engine (rendering textures/tiles and the like) - we would be essentially tagging it to the "Scenario Generation" portion, assembling a background sprite, and then configuring POIs in the same way one might in the editor. That being said, I still prefer not to do it (though the POC we did involving a very simple genealogical generation was fairly promising) and though its place on the stretch goals will be determined by the votes it will have a correspondingly high price given its significant art assets required.
I wouldn't say we have solid plans - we have several artists and a few sound engineers on notice with proper bandwidth and we believe we have budgeted properly for time and money for the stretch goals. I think the only significant delay we'll hit is with the KS itself - though I really can't imagine it's as bad as everyone says (plan to have 0 development time??) I'm assuming we may go down to 50% efficiency.
Based on the metrics we're seeing (our mailing list, twitter, website hits) corresponding to other KS postmortems we're not really expecting it to explode. If somehow it did go crazy, we would approach the stretch goals as "to be added after the base game is 100% solid." That is to say, we would certify the base game as complete and fully playable, and then continue to add any of the additional content packs and features.
We plan to have 3 scenarios at launch, and we expect mod tools to be available in advance of the proper launch. I personally believe the scenarios have significant replay value - but then again I do love the game.
Post by: i2amroy on September 09, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
I think the only significant delay we'll hit is with the KS itself - though I really can't imagine it's as bad as everyone says (plan to have 0 development time??) I'm assuming we may go down to 50% efficiency.From what I know (and have seen/experienced) a lot of that is tied up in handling physical goods for reward levels. If all you are doing is virtual rewards it's still very time consuming, but nowhere near the level that anything physical requires.
Post by: thepodger on September 09, 2014, 11:45:33 pm
Post by: Little on September 09, 2014, 11:59:44 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on September 10, 2014, 12:37:28 am
Post by: Xantalos on September 10, 2014, 12:42:43 am
Post by: Jalak on September 10, 2014, 12:44:40 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 10, 2014, 03:44:26 am
So with the idea of roman/modern era scenarios, would you, the elder god, get nerfed in magic as well, since having a world where no one else can use it sounds like it would be quiet easy to overwhelm (unless there's some sort of even where they can steal it from you, maybe)?
Late Roman empire was filled with mystery cults, if there is magic in the world, I assume they'd have it too. In a modern 1920/1930s scenario, those were the golden times of spiritism and hocus-pocus. Just make it so Alistair Crowley is actually a wizard etc. As long as the magic is subtle, I think it can work in historical scenarios just okay.
Post by: Jalak on September 10, 2014, 04:38:14 am
Post by: nenjin on September 10, 2014, 09:27:07 am
You wouldn't even need to have it as a "conquer the world" type deal; just grab a map of a town (maybe even from a lovecraft board game) and put an emphasis on hero "investigators" and what they do.
Basically coming full circle back to Arkham Horror.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 10, 2014, 11:28:09 am
If we were to tackle a more modern variant of the game it would doubtless go much further down the Lovecraft vein and would play out much differently.
Still, you never know what a determined modder might come up with - if someone makes a modern map I'd definitely give it a try.
Post by: Xantalos on September 10, 2014, 12:06:22 pm
Post by: Sartain on September 10, 2014, 12:31:20 pm
I've seen what Skyrim modders do, there'll be a modern map at some point.
Before long, Thomas the Tank Engine skins and making sweet, awkward uncanny valley love to your followers will come to That Which Sleeps as well?
Post by: Jalak on September 10, 2014, 12:46:45 pm
Post by: Vgray on September 10, 2014, 12:52:23 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 10, 2014, 02:28:04 pm
The world has forgotten your name.I've seen what Skyrim modders do, there'll be a modern map at some point.
Before long, Thomas the Tank Engine skins and making sweet, awkward uncanny valley love to your followers will come to That Which Sleeps as well?
*toot toot*
Don't forget destroying the magical land of techno-color ponies...Desire for game just shot up a bit. WHAT'S THAT ABOUT FRIENDSHIP YOU SAY OH LOOK YOUR LAND IS DYING
Post by: Cthulhu on September 10, 2014, 04:03:44 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 11, 2014, 01:01:15 am
Come on guys, you proved in like fifteen threads that you can't discuss colored horses without breaking the rules. Get that shit outta here.
I honestly don't know what you mean by that.
Post by: Xantalos on September 11, 2014, 01:08:39 am
Perfect.Come on guys, you proved in like fifteen threads that you can't discuss colored horses without breaking the rules. Get that shit outta here.
I honestly don't know what you mean by that.
Post by: Jalak on September 11, 2014, 03:38:33 am
Perfect.Come on guys, you proved in like fifteen threads that you can't discuss colored horses without breaking the rules. Get that shit outta here.
I honestly don't know what you mean by that.
Don't know what you mean by that, either.
Moving on, when a hero stumbles along your "home base" due to sheer curiosity, will they find out that you're there? Hell, is it even possible for a the world to find out who you are if you do absolutely nothing suspicious? is it a potentially good strategy in just making simple infiltration challenges without actually doing anything else until you have eyes and ears everywhere, or will the hero and nations be too powerful if you try "turtling" for so long like that?
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2014, 09:05:30 am
As you said, moving on.
Post by: TempAcc on September 11, 2014, 09:26:09 am
Also, it would be interesting if there were other evils in the world, altough less powerful or more recent then you, that you could provoke or awaken, to make then cause havoc and thus shift attention from yourself. Something like "OH GOD THE EVIL MAGICAL ARMY OF GOLEMS CREATED BY THE WIZARD BLARAGLGLL SUDDENLY BECAME ACTIVE AND STARTED RAZING WHOLE CITIES LETS FORGET ALL THIS MYSTERIOUS LAND PLAGUE AND GO FIGHT THEM" and etc.
Post by: Jalak on September 11, 2014, 09:54:51 am
Say, are there plans to make the player able to corrupt and use whole nations, taking control of them directly or through agents? As in, turning a nation's leaders into your personal agents or having your agents take over a kingdom in a way or another, eliminate any opposition and then use that nation as a tool to your designs, akin to what sauron did in the third age with the men of harad/khand/rhun/etc.
Also, it would be interesting if there were other evils in the world, altough less powerful or more recent then you, that you could provoke or awaken, to make then cause havoc and thus shift attention from yourself. Something like "OH GOD THE EVIL MAGICAL ARMY OF GOLEMS CREATED BY THE WIZARD BLARAGLGLL SUDDENLY BECAME ACTIVE AND STARTED RAZING WHOLE CITIES LETS FORGET ALL THIS MYSTERIOUS LAND PLAGUE AND GO FIGHT THEM" and etc.
The answers to both those questions are lying within this thread somewhere, so here's a summary for you.
The whole premise of eventually taking over the world practically evolves around the idea of corrupting nations and various other powers. Be aware, though, that corrupting the king doesn't automatically make his vassals and armies loyal to you; the idea is that you use him to manipulate his subjects for your own ends (whether it's committing genocide on their own people or doing nothing while society collapses around them). If corrupted people get found out, they may get "cured" or outright deposed. I suppose you can also corrupt the armies and the cities as well for total control, if that's what you want, but that may not be a good idea as your time and actions are a bit limited and concentrating on one specific region can let the rest of the world get ahead of you. Although, I'd imagine the heroes and light-loving nations would have a harder time "purging" the place of your influence and could be a pretty effective distraction from whatever else your doing, so there's that. You can also make those same corrupt leaders into "active" agents rather then remaining in their "sleeper" role, so long as you have room for them. Hell, you could probably corrupt a king, have him ground his own nation into dust, then have him go active and flee somewhere else when the light-bringers come knocking.
It's been said before that other elder gods got planned to fight you over who gets to be top dog, but were cut out due to technical constraints, but might be brought back in, give enough time and money. There are, however, some events later on in the game already that have ancient evil powers rise up and cause havoc, and you can manipulate them and make them join your cause just like any other power. One of the these evils mentioned is some death-knight named Baron Greywind (or something) who spawns later on at some ruined castle, raises a bunch of undead minions, then goes on a crusade against whatever culture he hates at the time. You can manipulate him to become an ally, a direct agent or just leave him be (though it has been stated that, without your intervention, his crusade will be doomed to failure eventually). It's also been stated that it's totally possible to shift the blame of all the bad things you've done on an agent or ally, so that if the world rallies together and destroys them, you'll be still hanging around, biding your strength to make a comeback :D.
Post by: TempAcc on September 11, 2014, 10:35:57 am
Post by: nenjin on September 11, 2014, 11:13:24 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 12, 2014, 01:06:03 am
As for stumbling on your base, depending on what you've been doing there may be a quest of varying strength to go investigate it - but if you have done NOTHING at your base they may simply wander on past - obliviously investigating other venues, especially if an area nearby has a quest. However, even if you have remained completely silent in that region certain heroes pursue their own agenda of plunging into ancient ruins - in which case they may stumble upon you, even if they don't know what that means. If your pursue this strategy you would want to keep an eye on those particular heroes, and eliminate/corrupt/distract them.
Turtling presents its own difficulties because the heroes are slowly building up the map - think of the dynamics of the game as a neutral state, with some chaos and some order - your agents try to tilt the world in the direction of chaos (or a more harmful order) and the heroes are generally endorsing order and cultural understandings. You may find actions that would be easy at the start of the game become much harder if you let them have their way. In addition, the sages of the world will begin to suspect your return regardless and engage themselves in research - and the Chosen One will rise even without your intervention.
Update on our status: we've been revisiting our videos while we work on the Trailer. We've just finished redoing Video 3 with the feedback received from the other videos, and we're on to the next few. We also slightly altered the priority of the videos based on feedback.
Video 3 - Agent and Hero Combat
Trailer
Video 4 - Challenges and Events
Video 5 - Play Sample (I'll play through 15-25 turns of the game, and do my best to knock the world into chaos)
Video 6 - Military and War
Video 7 - In-Game Editor and Modding
KS still on schedule for the 22nd. Demo will be the number one priority after Video 5 is released.
Post by: jhxmt on September 13, 2014, 07:24:37 am
Post by: Jalak on September 13, 2014, 01:08:18 pm
You've already said that you took out the gods, religions and went for more static quality maps rather then loads of random generation, but what other sort of mechanics did you have near the start of this project that you also took out? Not in terms of big game changers like those two, but more on how you actually play the game, what information you got and how, that sort of thing.
Also, what compelled you and your other partner (who, until named, I am going to assume is Cthulu) to start this project in the first place? How long ago was that?
Post by: thepodger on September 14, 2014, 12:12:17 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 14, 2014, 01:16:36 am
Should have the Videos pumping out starting Monday.
PROJECT HISTORY QUESTIONS? oh man - well it's hard to say when this project actually started. I quit my full time job almost a year and a half ago, to return to video game development (I worked on Palm Treo games WAY back in the day, as well as an aborted attempt to make a PC Strategy game about a decade ago) - we went through a prototyping phase and came up with three games we wanted to design, prototype, and playtest. They were:
- Unnamed Space Game - Essentially a Battlestar Galactica simulator, you play as the Admiral of a fleet of very random components and must keep them together. It leveraged a lot of the AI elements we are using in That Which Sleeps, including our systems of repressing desires, dealing with stress, and figuring out who you like/hate/love. It focused more on the politics of leadership than the command and control you usually see (at the time, now a few games have come out/are coming that actually embrace this idea).
We were handling the technical requirements by having a SINGLE 3D Spaceship that we cut into for simple 2D rooms, which was satisfying - but we determined that the theme required graphical events which we weren't comfortable committing to given our limited art assets. Shelved with limited assets and a simple test prototype created.
- The King is Dead - Heavily asymetrical HTML5 Board-Game type strategy game, used the same map look and feel as That Which Sleeps. The unique element was in the characters you could control - the King dies leaving the Lord Protector of the realm who controls the provincial guard and nominally has control over the kingdom, but each actions he takes lowers his legitimacy making him seem more and more like a usurper, other factions such as Disgraced nobles who can call on exiled members and foreign powers to help them start with a massive war chest but no terrain, a Merchant's Guild faction just wants to control all the resources fo the kingdom and doesn't care who wins, and the eternally loyal Warden of the North controls the loyalty of the armies (and is the best commander), but has no economy to speak of (he relies on subsidies from the Lord Protector at start).
Heavily influenced by CDG Board Games (Legitimacy and Usurper status are almost word for word from Successors), we wanted to take the best of the board game world and bring in what a PC version can offer. Abandoned because ??? monetize and the game itself wasn't as rewarding to work on as the other alternatives. This one is actually in a playable state.
- That Which Sleeps, which you've heard tons about. It started out as a "do we do a mobile pandemic-style spread corruption game?" which we ended up saying 'This is fun to play but not fun to make' so we went all out and made it into the kind of PC Strategy we've always wanted to play. So many changes occured in the prototyping and later playtesting stage - originally you had "actions points" to use X agents, the agents were generic and repeatable, minions didn't exist, heroes had large posses of allies, combat was just X vs Y, at one point all actions were narrative choices like in KODP, and originally the few "unique agents" had their own plotlines that worked against you and each other (modeled after Wheel of Time). One of the biggest mechanical changes is with Challenges - Challenges take time to complete, originally it was more like a standard 4x where your actions are immediate. Testing with heroes gave us the idea that "plots take time" which gives you a much more thematic feel of playing as evil.
It was important to us that we settle on a game that was feasible for us to make, we wanted to ensure that the game played out on either a single screen or a map - that way the majority of our time can be spent on the back-end, making a compelling AI and some great content. Some of the other ideas that didn't make it to prototype stage were great, but we didn't think a 2 man team could accomplish them.
We've always wanted to go back to game making - we both have had good jobs in our industries so we saved up and decided to go for it. We'd been designing/making/playing board games with our group for a long time, and increasingly leveraging technical aspects to spruce them up. Only made sense to bring some of these ideas to life.
Also DMing for over a decade, so many plots that I want to see brought to life.
THANKS FOR ASKING - I'm definitely going to put "Jalak the Chronicler" as a Hero event somewhere.
Post by: Xantalos on September 14, 2014, 01:18:43 am
Post by: Jalak on September 14, 2014, 03:04:03 am
Why weren't they getting posted? The videos, I mean.
Please tell me that one of them said that the idea of playing a completely evil being with no redemption and played completely straight was deemed too "unfriendly to the kids".
By the way, how's the balancing of the Elder Gods going? Is the Death God back, or are you still sorting that out?
Also, thank you thank you thank you! You just make my week for that, especially since I didn't need to back the kickstarter or anything! My plans are all coming together, MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Granted, these thoughts hit a bit of a snag when I was totally-not-bragging about this to my brother, when he turned around and basically said "Wait, if you're in the game as the Elder God and an official hero, does that mean you've been doomed to killing your evil/good counterpart for an eternity?" Well, damn, when you put that way...
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 14, 2014, 06:19:43 am
It focused more on the politics of leadership than the command and control you usually see (at the time, now a few games have come out/are coming that actually embrace this idea).
Which would these be?
I wonder about how this game will give you a sense of self. I can't help but look at the game as having a surprisingly good way of making abstraction fit with roleplaying. A lot of strategy games tell you your a commander, but instantly afterwards you as any kind of conceivable entity are replaced with an untouchable unaccountable presence. Actually playing as a meddling ghost helps, but you see what I'm getting at.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 15, 2014, 12:10:23 pm
Actually got a lot of positive comments on the game itself, and a couple of the writers said they'd be supporting our KS which was great news.
Haven't touched the elements that were removed for the demo yet, and we won't be until after we have the demo ready to go. Part of the reason we removed the Death God temporarily was so that we could have a well-balanced and working demo, and then we can get back to more traditional development.
Other Games - I don't quite remember their names, but their was that reason one "The Mandate?" that was russian themed that sounds amazing - their was the one where you played a meta-game taking on the role of someone on a near-future ship flying over Earth, and there's a few others that I saw on KS or in previews that are aiming generally for this idea. Star Traders 2 on KS now is an example as well (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tresebrothers/star-traders-2-rpg).
Post by: nenjin on September 15, 2014, 12:45:37 pm
There's what real fans of the game want to know, which is the nitty gritty of it all....
And then there's what gets clicks on a media front page. So while I agree with the "too long/doesn't get into gameplay fast enough" from a game journo website angle, as a fan, I think it's total crap. They're used to 45 second cinematic trailers with no gameplay, so I'm not surprised that you talking about your game in detail isn't "sexy enough" to publish, even if the writers themselves are interested.
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 17, 2014, 07:10:17 am
Post by: Jalak on September 17, 2014, 07:59:20 am
If you're able to infiltrate certain parts of a POI that belongs to an "ally" can you just straight up take that point to run yourself, eventually?
Is it possible to create a nation out of territories you have control over and put one of your agents/corrupted heroes in charge to avoid suspicion?
Also, If an army you control meets up with an army belonging to one of your allies, is it possible for them to fight regardless, since ghouls, vampires and whatnot just showing up would probably spook any mere mortal army, regardless of affiliation?
Can your allies fight each-other as well, and would it be worth letting them, if they do (assuming there isn't any goody-two-shoes army nearby? Hell, can armies get involved in a three-way (or more) battle with each-other, or are the mechanics of combat not really designed for that?
The biggest question I have is what does it actually mean when a nation is considered "under the shadow"? Are any nations that have an infiltrated leadership considered this, since you have (nominal) control over what they do now, or is that title reserved for nations that have publicly declared their allegiance to your cause if you go the aggressive route, like Isengard to Mordor? How hard is it to maintain control over a country when you're that blatant with your intentions, and is it possible to convince nations (or even heroes) to thrown their lot in with you purely because they fear that going up against you would be even worse?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 19, 2014, 06:24:28 am
You can steal a POI from an an infiltrated ally through normal duplicitous means, though they can't simply let you annex it. If they are openly on your side, you have direct control and their is no option to cede control to another power (though they can seize it).
You CAN create nations but they are all linked to SPECIFIC or GENERIC events, there isn't a challenge to "create a nation" though you can coup and take control of independent regions. You and your allies can fight - but generally this won't be the case (unless you want to scare up some death to augment your power as the death god). A more likely scenario is you control Army A (orcs and ogres) and Army B (Deluded Human King) and you want them both to fight Army C (Human Knights), getting them too close to eachother and working together will alert the world and shake your control of the Deluded Human King, and even if he remains corrupted his people will want to oust him.
No 3 way battles in a single POI, but 3 way fronts are very common - it's fun to encourage that kind of situation where multiple parties are hostile to eachother in the same vicinity, and also very beneficial strategically. However, a third party CAN attack into a POI with a battle ongoing with two parties - the result can be... a mess.
"Under the Shadow" has shifting means, which is why I use different terms (not very helpful, I know) - but essentially the level of "formalization" of that alliance makes it harder to get certain people on to your side but also gives greater beneefits. It mechanically is the nations you directly can control. As for intimidation, oh yes - fear is one of the major ways to reduce will, and some heroes and leaders are particularly craven. It won't work on a leader if you are at the "Apocalyptic Revelations" stage of lore.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 19, 2014, 07:20:29 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 19, 2014, 07:32:57 am
It looks good though!
Post by: Denim on September 19, 2014, 11:30:56 am
1) Is the art for the agents the final art that you will have are or are they going to be replaced after a successful kickstarter? I ask because the art for the prophet, peddler, and the baron seem great as is. The heavy use of neutral colors gives them a really sinister look.
2) The fight with Greywind ended with him corrupting or killing all his enemies but his fame still went up by a lot. Is this because the survivors ran off and told people what happened? If he had killed all his enemies would that had made a difference? It would just seem to make sense if all the witnesses to a fight die then the agent should not gain any fame.
Post by: Jalak on September 19, 2014, 11:36:26 am
Honestly, though, I think you should just turn off music altogether for your next videos. The main screen music was fine but the combat one made me have to concentrate on the icons you were pointing to just to get an idea of what you were trying to say.
Got a question about the imbued power thing: When you said that you were going to lose those two power orbs that you used on Grey, do you mean that that power is now gone and you need to get that power back (and, hence, wait longer to awaken) or do those two power orbs "regenerate" back to four when your next turn comes around?
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2014, 11:50:58 am
-Music was indeed too loud again.
-Did not really expect the anime-esqe style for character portraits. Not a problem per se, although I feel it juxtaposes a little weirdly with the rest of the art style.
-Dat battle screen. So much information! Kinda crazy how many details and modifiers there are to pay attention to. I think maybe you could spend some time making sure everything is organized rationally. Because there's a lot of places to look for info.
-Consider that instead of rows of shields and swords, you could just do Icon: Current Value/Max Value. That'd be easier to read and free up more space on the combat windows.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 19, 2014, 12:07:44 pm
The Hero Portraits are all placeholder, 20 dollar art pack - whereas the Agent Portraits are the style we are going for.
There IS a lot of information on the Combat Screen, and it will doubtless go through a few incarnations during playtesting - we have the swords/shields laid out so you can see at a glance what types of attack/defense the agent/hero has.
The orbs are consumed, and turn dark - like what the fourth orb looked like - and slowly regenerate over time back up to 4. This process goes faster the more orbs you have (the closer you are to awake) and is independent from the the time it takes you to awake.
Fame will almost always go up even if you kill all the combatants, because the assumption is either that a) They informed others of their plan or b) Their were civilians around. However, if you had ambushed the enemy in a remote barren land then fame would increase only slightly.
haha, yeah the blond hair thing - that art was from a 20 dollar package we bought just to have some placeholders and it's heavily weighted towards that look. We plan to replace it.
I too remember the pain of Master of Orion 3.... Never forget
Post by: Jalak on September 19, 2014, 01:10:24 pm
Also, is there an option in the editor that lets us only see things in it that we can see "normally" in-game when using it? What I mean is that I'd like to be able to edit the world in-game so I can change up the flags for either myself or my allies if I go "public" to represent a new rising power or whatnot (like how Isengard using the White Hand and Mordor using the Lidless Eye when they went full-conquest mode) and not accidentally see anything I'm not actually supposed to, since I'm only going in it for cosmetic reasons. Is it possible to create your own flags in-game, or at least import one from an image?
Also, I love how the orcs are weilding the swords the Uruk-hai use (by the way, the White Hand and Lidless Eye should totally be an option to use as a flag).
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 19, 2014, 01:36:00 pm
Each Old One has a different "on awake" event, and each one also has repurcussions to their slumber coming to an end. For instance, Karth calls a massive horde when he arises, but is himself an excellent commander who is brutally tough in combat. As he wanders the world more and more Orc tribes spring up around him, eventually swallowing the world in a horde of demihumans unless he is stopped. These are customizable by the ability trees, so if the Old One has "Will Over Fate" when he awakens he has the ultimate ability to spawn random events, and then manipulate them, pretty routinely - this can be devastating. In addition, that Old One has massive Arcana and can perform powerful rituals fairly quickly.
You know, there isn't a "fog of war" type option in the editor right now. That's a pretty good idea, I'm guessing it would be easy to add a switch for that.
EVERYTHING is moddable, including images - if you want to import the Lord of the Rings flags it is absolutely easy to do.
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2014, 01:45:57 pm
Quote
perhaps returning to that may streamline both the look and some of complexity of having to look at your opponent to analyze their defenses?
I'm a big fan of not having to count #'s of pips. It becomes more burdensome a) the more there are and b) the higher resolution you play at. I'm always a fan of just seeing the straight number because it facilitates the fastest comparisons.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 19, 2014, 02:00:55 pm
Post by: Tommy2U on September 19, 2014, 02:15:54 pm
Does the combat system shown in the video cover battles betwen armies as well, or do they have a separate combat system from heroes, agents and minions?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 19, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
Due to their frequency (military conflicts are much more common than hero battles) we wanted to keep it routed on the map itself, even moreso than combat, and also keep the pace more in line with overall strategy. To do this we implemented two major elements:
1) Combat takes multiple turns - Armies will stay on a POI and "duke it out" over multiple turns, with you choosing how to handle the battle. Do you throw all your men at the enemy in a bloodbath? Play it conservative and try to hodl them there? Send men around for a flanking maneuver? Simple, easy mechanics that allow the game to play out without requiring excessive concentration.
2) Elite Units and Powerful Agents/Heros that are difficult to impossible to replace punctuate the combat with their deployment. You may choose to send in your Ogre Deathmarchers this turn, and perhaps the enemy sends in his Northburn Knights - choosing when to utilize your elites lets you push for strategic objectives when it is most beneficial, and rewards careful identification and elimination of enemy threats that counteract your own strengths.
Civ 5 route was also an early method of display, but I think we are going to leave it as is while we go through another round of combat testing. If it ends up that we get enough "excessive information" complaints we will streamline damage/defense types as we mentioned so that we can easily represent attack types and value.
The good thing is that these elements are all fairly easy to change mechanically/aesthetically based on our design, though the implications of messing with attack/damage types on balance is unfortunately pretty great.
What do you think? Is having discrete damage types for each character worth the burden of having to consider defense types for every attack?
Post by: Jalak on September 19, 2014, 02:51:11 pm
SO MANY NEW QUESTIONS FROM THAT ONE STATEMENT BLARG!
What happens if someone manages to "kill" you conventionally (without using some arcane ritual to seal him up)? Can you be sent back to sleep, voluntarily or not? Can your Old One imbue itself with its own magic and artifacts like agents can and even level up? Do you get special minions as well? TELL ME!
Edit: Personally, I could go either way on the whole combat mechanics thing...
Also, what happens when an army runs into an agent or hero?
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2014, 03:00:33 pm
Post by: i2amroy on September 19, 2014, 03:19:04 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2014, 04:16:24 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 19, 2014, 04:37:45 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 19, 2014, 04:59:50 pm
Still hyped as fuck!
Post by: Denim on September 19, 2014, 05:11:25 pm
Will there be an acid or corrosion damage type that eats away at a character's armor over time?
Post by: nenjin on September 19, 2014, 05:50:37 pm
You've been pretty good in videos of explaining how many tooltips there are (I'm also a lover of tooltips.) I think you should reinforce that point in any sort of tutorial the game ends up with. (As well as tip of the days, ect...) People that know everything is further explained by a tooltip I think quickly get used to it as a basic design concept.
Post by: rylen on September 19, 2014, 08:53:40 pm
In the illustrated combats, both the the adventuring parties appeared to be led by a fighter, who had the highest level, and was blocking for one mage. How large can a party get? Is someone besides the fighter ever in charge?
How much are you able to know about the opposition before starting the fight?
For what you've said, the game sounds extremely moddable. Where are the outer edges? I suspect I could easily do a tribute to Barrier Peaks and drop in a hidden crash site of spider aliens. Likely I could write some quest chains leading to them interacting with the rest of a map and producing heroes. I think I could also re-skin some agents to be spiders; I suspect new abilities would be difficult though. How about a spider god settling in and building her web?
I'm looking forward to playing.
Post by: Jalak on September 20, 2014, 04:58:20 pm
A little tool-tip explaining the damage types when moused-over would go a long way clearing this up.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 20, 2014, 06:28:42 pm
I was a little disappointed by the info drought there for a while but I figured you were working hardcore on the game. I wasn't sold on the brownbrownbrown portraits but now that there's more I think they're coming together pretty well. Animo hero portraits gave me a >:C until I realized they were obviously placeholder shit.
Still hyped as fuck!
Anime are definitely placeholders, depending on the level of funding we achieve we will be creating 10 (base level of funding) 18 (if we reach Religion tier) or 25 (if we reach rival old ones) high quality portraits to represent hero class and archetype. Worst case scenario with a failed KS we are going to strip out the entire anime portrait, use the "head" portraits and filter them down to look more in line with what we have. Sucks I know, but we have enough of those anime portraits to have a unique image PER hero right now for dirt cheap so if we have to stay this course we will.
Sad thing is I'm barely able to work on the game this week - we're handling lots of logistical and marketing issues in the run up to the Kickstarter. A necessary sacrifice but ideally we'll raise enough to be able to give the game a consistent feel to match its playstyle.
There is not an Acid attack damage type, but there are many abilities that emulate that functionality and are acid themed. but no +1 to Acid damage or -1 to Acid Damage effects as its not a Damage Type setting (would be trivial to add if someone wanted to in a mod).
I do think the Tooltip/rollout solution sounds best - Combat is locked down right now for the demo build so we'll have to put it in the feature list for afterwards.
Oh yeah, you generally see "Leader" archetypes in charge but sometimes a Mage or even a Thief may be the leader. However, the adventuring parties do try to form "logically" so a Mage will rarely go adventuring without some protection (or the proper defensive spells to protect himself). If you have infiltration you know everything you would see in the battle screen before the fight occurs, if you don't have infiltration you will only know their classes and levels.
Alright let's use a Spider God as an example (in fact maybe I will do this for the video).
You create a New Old One, you set an integer value for time of sleep, you set if the old one has an avatar, if so you define its statistics (health, attributes, skills, abilities), you set its max/min number of agents, you pick its ability trees, you upload an image to the editor for it, pick passive modifiers, set if global or only for specific scenarios, and then fill in all the flavor text (how agents refer to the old one, how enemies do, how demihumans do, etc etc).
At this point you could simply play a rather generic new old One with a combination of two ability trees. However, to CUSTOMIZE the experience there are two very important extra steps. The first thing is Ability Trees, you can either modify an existing one or create new ones. Creating a new one "What Webs we Weave" you would then create an ability. Abilities are where there's a bit of a learning curve, because their are multiple types and each has numerous hooks to plug in to. For instance, let's say you wanted to make a Map based effect that causes all movement in a POI to cease because you cover it in massive webbing.
You'd make a new Ability, it is Activated - Immediate- Global - Map - Costs 2 Ancient Power - pick an appropriate icon from the list or upload a new one - describe it - add a clue value to it - pick your flags (can be countered, divine, fire, hidden, etc). Now comes the hard part, picking how the effect works. So this ability you add a new Effect, and you can add as many as you want. This Effect you pick when it happens (after cast), (POIImmobilize = true), Duration (3 turns + 1 per 3 ancient power). Let's say you wanted to add a Quest ot his spot that could be defeated to remove this effect, you could add a random QUest with Effect - Quest, Difficulty, Type or you could go make a specific quest and spawn that particular one.
Now you probably noticed I put "POIImmobilize= true," that's because we have that effect already coded in, we have LOTS of status effects that are possible but of course people will have more that we don't plan for. That's why we expose all the variables that the AI can understand (as opposed to just allowing you to modify anything), so if we hadn't had a POIImmobilize value you could do an "OnTurn - HeroMove = 0" "OnTurn - ArmyMove = 0" etc.
If what you want to do is even more complex than what is possible on a single level, you can leverage Events, Campaigns, and Quests to create complicated chains of events (we leverage this often) to really give you abilities an immersive feel. Speaking of which, the other major element of customization is events tied to this Old One. On the Create Old One screen you will see a list of Events that specifically reference this Old One. As an example of this, Sisyphus has a long series of branching events regarding his interaction with the prophet - though these are not an ability of his they are events that only trigger as long as he is your old one.
Basic Attack Damage refers to the damage listed on the Agent or Hero's sheet, so in the instance of Baron Greywind it would be 9 Physical Damage, it then specifies an extra attack (another effect) that specifically deals Physical Damage. If the Prophet somehow had that ability, his first effect would deal 1 Ancient damage, and his secondary would deal 4 physical.
Physical Damage is blocked 1 to 1 by Physical Defense. Whenever the phrase "takes damage" is expressed it means Attack values are checked against Defense Values before causing the target to lose the resulting value. If you see the phrase "loses life" it ignores defense and they simply lose that health value.
In other words, basic attack refers to the attack values present on your agent or heroes sheet.
TL;DR: More tooltips!
Post by: Sindain on September 20, 2014, 08:59:19 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 20, 2014, 10:06:15 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 20, 2014, 10:17:31 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 20, 2014, 10:42:34 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 20, 2014, 11:07:22 pm
That being said, it is THE priority for us as having a demo is obvious a huge bonus for the Kickstarter. A "let's play" video is on the burner right after the KS launches, and if we're not overwhelmed we'll be able to tackle the demo finalization during that first week. I'll be able to give you a more concrete answer by the end of the first week.
It's one of those strange situations where the worse the KS does, it will probably get the demo out faster since we'll be able to focus on it. Then again, that's clearly a bad situation for us to be in. Either way, I'll be sure to let you know as soon as I can give a concrete date.
There IS a tester tier, but that won't be immediate either - we'd be rolling you into the tester ranks after the KS closes, much more interaction than just a demo and access to builds as they come out.
Post by: lijacote on September 21, 2014, 07:47:12 am
Word. A tester tier with some play-at-your-own-risk immediate alpha access would get my money pretty much immediately. Wouldn't even have to consider it.(http://i.imgur.com/OEcbOrN.jpg)
Post by: Jalak on September 21, 2014, 03:01:42 pm
Something I'm confused about how damage effects heroes; when a hero starts losing health does it actually make it harder for them to complete quests and even close off certain things they could do normally (besides being effected by the wound system), or is like almost every rpg ever where they can fight just as well if they had only one health as opposed to all of it? Is it the same for will?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 21, 2014, 03:22:44 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 21, 2014, 03:26:13 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 21, 2014, 03:28:52 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 21, 2014, 04:29:29 pm
Ah well, I can just hibernate the requisite number of hours.
Oh, do you guys have a social media page or something like that for the game? That'd probably boost awareness of it a bit.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 21, 2014, 04:37:58 pm
None of this will matter for a game like this but I'm bringing it up to try to get you to grasp just how fucking hyped I am right now in so many fucking directions. I can not even.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 21, 2014, 05:10:09 pm
HUZZAH! THE DAY OF THE KICKSTARTER HAS COME! WHAT, YOU MEAN I HAVE TO WAIT AN EXTRA DAY SINCE I LIVE IN A DIFFERENT TIME ZONE? Goddammit...
Something I'm confused about how damage effects heroes; when a hero starts losing health does it actually make it harder for them to complete quests and even close off certain things they could do normally (besides being effected by the wound system), or is like almost every rpg ever where they can fight just as well if they had only one health as opposed to all of it? Is it the same for will?
Good question - we originally were going with a Banner Saga combat system (I really liked their innovation in that arena) but without a grid and tactical movement it loses a lot of the oomph and actually restricts our interesting abilities and traits. So that raises the question, "what is the implication behind doing damage to a hero."
1 - Wounds are common, taking damage below 50% health has a 25% chance increased by +10% per health point below 50%. Wounds are long-lasting, the lightest of them take 10+ turns to heal and the higher ones may remove an adventurer from the questing life (he can retire to become a passive bonus to a POI or even an adviser). They often lower statistics that the heroes use for questing and combat as well.
2 - Even healing takes time, knocking someone down to 2 health will tell them to retreat to a nearby town and rest. Outside of the expensive Healing Potions there are VERY FEW ways to instantly heal, originally "priests" could heal with miracles back before we gutted the Religion system but with its removal we found it really helped the game.
3 - Lower will restricts spell usage, and low will also induces panic and creates a more "pliable" hero for corruption. Will damage is fun, absolutely fun, and they get "mental wounds" the same as physical, and if you knock someone down to 0 there's a healthy chance they crakc under the pressure.
We're on..
Twitter -https://twitter.com/KingDinoGames
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thatwhichsleeps?ref=br_tf
IndieDB - http://www.indiedb.com/games/that-which-sleeps
I really prefer forums, because I get to actually interact with people - but I know Social Networks are important so they're up there but we barely push them.
Post by: Xantalos on September 21, 2014, 06:58:38 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 21, 2014, 07:20:55 pm
When you stated that there are some "grey" classes focused on obtaining gold and generally keeping out of the way of doing anything particularly good or evil, can they get worse then that? If you break the will of a grey class hero (which shouldn't be too hard, all things considered) can they degrade to a "black" class that, while not actually on your side, are so damaging to others around them that they might as well be and can be easily recruited later? Like, say, a bandit or assassin class?
Also, I think I remember you mentioning before that heroes change their powers when they get corrupted to fit more in line with yours. If a hero is powerful enough when that happens, can they switch to some high-tier evil class as well, like a lich or something?
Post by: rylen on September 21, 2014, 08:13:34 pm
Wounds linger and low heath leads to wounds. How long does health stay low?
As you build your shipping system, any chance of piracy? I'd like to temp a beleaguered nation into privateering.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 21, 2014, 10:21:01 pm
Their are no "black" classes despite our original intent to have them - if we do hit the 'Rival Old Ones' tier we will reintroduce these classes. However, grey classes and even normal heroic classes can be detrimental enough on their own.
No higher tier evil classes, but again if 'Rival Old Ones' makes it we would doubtless incorporate some element of this.
Health simply stays low, their is no "natural" regeneration - a hero must choose to rest and depending on where he is resting he will regenerate faster or slower. The lower his health, the longer it takes, for example it could take upwards of 30 turns for a hero who is at 1 health to return to maximum - taking them out of play for a very long time. Feel free to drop in on them while they're convalescing and rip off their bandages.
Piracy is important in the game, but in general at our current build naval elements are very basic - it's a mechanic that needs to be revisited once we've finished KS. Currently you can sponsor pirates with gold to either harass or blockade a POI, requiring a quest (if harass) or a naval expedition (if blockade) to dislodge. It gets more expensive to hire pirates the more they are defeated.
As for privateering, that does not exist currently but it would make sense once we return to the naval system to offer those options. Currently the idea of soft power/cold war situations is a major element and we want to ensure that the naval situation has the same range of possibilities.
Post by: cainiao on September 22, 2014, 01:43:07 am
However, there are serveral questions I would like to ask:
1. Will there be more visualization of the combat? I hate to caculate those number myself, something like civ5 style might help a lot.
2. No corpse left for heroes? I was hoping some kind of necromancer gameplay.
3. And you have to click though every hero to find out what armor type or attack type or items they have?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 03:35:00 am
2. Oh well - what a great question. There's a LOT you can do with dead heroes - and even living heroes you can get a token of them to use for rituals. However, you have to have the appropriate TRAIT for that - a lot of our game pivots around checking "what trait or skill level does this person have" and then allowing for results. A mindless barbarian would not be able to collect tokens from a hero, nor would he know what to do with a body (except mutilate it, and yes that is in the game), but a necromancer has... many FUN uses for corpses. I don't want to spoil any but... ONE OF THEM involves reanimating the corpse and having it deliver a message to whoever sent the hero after you. It really messes with morale, as you might expect.
3. It's a mouseover at this point, not necessarily a click though it amounts to the same. I understand it can be a bit much, but I tried to emphasize in the video that combat is RARE - so it is a decision for you to wade in to these combats or not. We may be able to put that information on the token on the map and lose the mouseover whole portrait, but no promises on that right now.
Glad you liked the video.
Post by: Humaan on September 22, 2014, 08:48:16 am
So hyped right now for it.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 22, 2014, 10:49:10 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 12:34:21 pm
KS - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps
Greenlight - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=316173232
All support appreciated! Spread the word if you're in the evangelist mood! Been awake for 28 hours so I might be quiet for awhile.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 12:34:58 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 22, 2014, 01:08:31 pm
Post by: Nuttycompa on September 22, 2014, 01:16:27 pm
Wow you guy just go 4% in first 30 minute :o
Look promissing :D
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 01:17:33 pm
Success or not, it has been awesome being able to talk through the design of the game with everyone here.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 01:21:08 pm
Post by: Mithras on September 22, 2014, 01:23:54 pm
Just a thought, I don't think I read anything about completing stretch goals after the base game itself is completed on the kickstarter. I feel this is an important thing to note (perhaps in the risks section) in order to reassure people who don't know already that you have thought carefully about the time needed to release the game and aren't going to get weighed down by any stretch goals.
Post by: nenjin on September 22, 2014, 01:32:44 pm
Just a thought, I don't think I read anything about completing stretch goals after the base game itself is completed on the kickstarter. I feel this is an important thing to note (perhaps in the risks section) in order to reassure people who don't know already that you have thought carefully about the time needed to release the game and aren't going to get weighed down by any stretch goals.
I dunno. More resources to put towards art and graphics might not be a bad stretch goal. TWS doesn't have the exposure currently, I think, to have a chance at crazy Kickstarter monies, but it never hurts to plan for that eventuality.
Also, Novel, you should edit the title to say that there's a Kickstarter.
Post by: Astfgl66 on September 22, 2014, 01:43:17 pm
Good luck for this month.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 01:53:21 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 22, 2014, 01:58:35 pm
Why not have a tooltip describing what a unit's results will be when attacking another unit?
1. Select attacking unit.
2. Select attack target.
3. Pop tool tip describing the outcome of the battle.
3a. Or, pop a small window that does the same.
This would really cut to the chase of the attack/defense value comparisons. The tooltip window could have columns for each affected agent/hero, showing damage that would be dealt, damage that would be blocked and damage that would be taken.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 02:03:26 pm
Pretty simple to do too, but our list of "simple additions" is maddeningly long.
Post by: jhxmt on September 22, 2014, 02:17:02 pm
Pledged. Have really enjoyed reading all of the discussion about the mechanics and seeing the videos, keep it up! :)
Post by: Chosrau on September 22, 2014, 02:17:38 pm
10% funded in roughly an hour...I have a feeling this will end well considering there is roughly 718 hours left of the kickstarter to go :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Really hope the KS reaches the Endless Simulation stretch goal, considering the advantages to modability.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 02:22:35 pm
Post by: Denim on September 22, 2014, 02:39:12 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 02:45:06 pm
Post by: ERICdb on September 22, 2014, 03:11:14 pm
BTW, congrats for the well made and good presentation of the Kickstarter page. You also have already an incredible game so the only thing left is some good people willing to make a wise investment.
17% :P
Post by: i2amroy on September 22, 2014, 03:19:41 pm
Post by: lijacote on September 22, 2014, 03:44:04 pm
Post by: Denim on September 22, 2014, 03:45:04 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 03:56:53 pm
I have to say that making events is fun, but of course you can do that with the modding tools when you get them if you don't feel like paying. The big difference is that the Event you make as part of the rewards will go out to everyone as part of the General Scenario Events, and also you can specify a unique piece of functionality that is outside of current mod capabilities. Once we add that in for your event, it is now accessible to everyone - so it builds the game up. Same thing with someone pledging for Agents, Scenarios - those tiers contribute a decent percentage to the assets required to create this additional content - so investment directly expands the game for everyone.
Good idea on system requirements, we have good support for Low Tier (no transitions and no particles) up to High but we should explicitly spell that out. Thanks for mentioning.
Youtubers I think we'll hit with the demo phase - do they actually review Kickstarter projects?
We're reaching out to Journalists again today - though it's been a cold reception for the last few weeks (with a few notable exceptions) I am HOPEFUL that the trailer and KS presence will be an in.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 22, 2014, 04:02:59 pm
If you actually pause and read the text and get an idea of what's happening you could get pretty hyped but as is I dunno how really immediately exciting it is.
EDIT: Oh and I backed of course. First time ever backing, 50 bucks.
Post by: i2amroy on September 22, 2014, 04:04:50 pm
Glad to hear everyone is feeling as enthusiastic as we are - I think the Tiers are pretty much set, it's not fair to move them around (and also I think not even allowed).It's totally possible to add new tiers to a kickstarter in progress (though if you add something new to it it's generally assumed that you will grant that same thing to upper tiers as well). I've definitely seen some that have added newer tiers before (including some that have done this exact thing, making a lower beta only tier when a number of people asked for a bit less of a jump between tiers).
That said if it's that set in stone I guess I'll just only throw in $10 and wait the extra 3 months. I just can't justify spending an extra $40 for an art book I'll look at once, a soundtrack I'll probably never listen to, a hero name (which is definitely cool) and 3 months of extra game time.
On the other hand are you guys planning to continue development after the official "release"? I know that there are some teams that once they actually release a game it's an indicator that they are done with it (excepting hideous bugs) and others that tend to treat releases more like a simple 1.0 patch and then continue to go on adding new stuff and content for varying periods of time.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 04:21:44 pm
All in all, whenever I'm doing anything for marketing I wish I was developing instead.
I can't pledge to anything concrete after release, it's just one of those things where you can't anticipate where you are professionally and personally. It is my intention to continue development to a point where the game is simply perfect, but that means something different to everyone - and I know I will at the very least release additional scenarios are the first release.
Post by: Jalak on September 22, 2014, 04:23:42 pm
By the way, Since you told me that you're adding a "Jalak the Chronicler" before, can I use my tier bonus to add another hero to show up along with him? My brothers gotten interested in this as well.
All and all, good luck with all this...
Post by: ERICdb on September 22, 2014, 04:27:03 pm
First time ever backing, 50 bucks.
Actually, same here. BTW, don't know how much it is to be trusted or no (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/ (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/)) , but in the extraordinary case that funds keep flowing like now we would surpass every strech goal. Dreaming is free.
EDIT: Number 26 in popularity on IndieDB. :P
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 22, 2014, 04:39:59 pm
I'd be happy enough with getting Religion back in, but I have to admit since we POC'd the Procedural Generation I do wish I had gone that route in the beginning - not as a replacement for hand-crafted scenarios but to go hand in hand with them as the stretch goal implies. The ability to let the cultural elements "flow" and then choose when to wake is worth the added frustration of working with genealogical systems.
Post by: Sartain on September 22, 2014, 04:48:50 pm
Post by: TTHSK on September 22, 2014, 04:50:13 pm
Post by: rylen on September 22, 2014, 05:00:00 pm
Post by: Seraph7996 on September 22, 2014, 06:13:35 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 22, 2014, 06:15:25 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on September 22, 2014, 06:17:44 pm
Post by: Humaan on September 23, 2014, 12:24:04 am
As of this post, more then a third done with the funding. And still more time to go.
Post by: Sartain on September 23, 2014, 01:37:37 am
Post by: Lapoleon on September 23, 2014, 06:48:20 am
What kind of scope are you planning on giving the demo by the way? Will it be limited to X turns, or will it be an entire game but limited to only one Sleeper/Background and with the current placeholder graphics?
One small nitpick: I noticed that the red text was hard to read on the dark background in the videos. I'm unable to read what is under "A body yet Remains" after the second combat in the Combat DevLog. This might of course be due to the resolution of the video but just in case it isn't it's never too early for betatesting :)
Post by: Xantalos on September 23, 2014, 07:12:54 am
Post by: Chosrau on September 23, 2014, 09:48:55 am
Now if only Kickstarter accepted Paypal I could actually back the game myself
Pretty much my sentiment too. I'd actually really like to back this, but people having a credit card are quite uncommon where I live.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 23, 2014, 10:14:40 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 23, 2014, 11:25:11 am
We've gotten two messages about pay pal so far, Joe is working on setting that up now so should get it up within a day or so. We'll make sure that that amount factors into the stretch goals.
Pretty exciting that we're almost halfway, we've been talking about putting up some of the POC work we did on Procedural Generation and Religions as an update, think that might be of interest to people?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 23, 2014, 12:17:26 pm
I've been promoting the game on some other forums I often visit so hopefully that will give it some more buzz. Now if only Kickstarter accepted Paypal I could actually back the game myself :'(
What kind of scope are you planning on giving the demo by the way? Will it be limited to X turns, or will it be an entire game but limited to only one Sleeper/Background and with the current placeholder graphics?
One small nitpick: I noticed that the red text was hard to read on the dark background in the videos. I'm unable to read what is under "A body yet Remains" after the second combat in the Combat DevLog. This might of course be due to the resolution of the video but just in case it isn't it's never too early for betatesting :)
It leaves a war standard behind, which I assume makes orcs keep showing up in those woods and bothering the people.
I'm seriously itching for that demo, though Belial only makes me sad. I'll deal with it. When?!
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 23, 2014, 03:49:57 pm
So we found out from a bunch of people that social media presence helps your KS project's search visibility (and getting it staff picked), so if you guys share/tweet/facebook or anything it's hugely appreciated. We really did not prioritize social media so we're a bit behind there, gotta pick up our facetweeting.
Our facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thatwhichsleeps
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 23, 2014, 04:14:34 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 23, 2014, 04:25:52 pm
DEMO DEMO - Belial and Karth are both playable in the demo, but currently only Belial has a proper tutorial. Haven't gotten back to it yet, I'll be able to give you a good estimate by the end of the week.
So we found out from a bunch of people that social media presence helps your KS project's search visibility (and getting it staff picked), so if you guys share/tweet/facebook or anything it's hugely appreciated. We really did not prioritize social media so we're a bit behind there, gotta pick up our facetweeting.
Our facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thatwhichsleeps
It's a sad truth of indie game development that an effective way of getting your name out there is enlisting as many people as you can into blindly firing the hype cannon into the TwitBookSpace and hoping it hits something meaningful. I generally prefer it when devs don't whore out social media just to get recognized, but I know in a lot of ways it's detrimental if they don't.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 23, 2014, 05:40:00 pm
DEMO DEMO - Belial and Karth are both playable in the demo, but currently only Belial has a proper tutorial. Haven't gotten back to it yet, I'll be able to give you a good estimate by the end of the week.
So we found out from a bunch of people that social media presence helps your KS project's search visibility (and getting it staff picked), so if you guys share/tweet/facebook or anything it's hugely appreciated. We really did not prioritize social media so we're a bit behind there, gotta pick up our facetweeting.
Our facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thatwhichsleeps
It's a sad truth of indie game development that an effective way of getting your name out there is enlisting as many people as you can into blindly firing the hype cannon into the TwitBookSpace and hoping it hits something meaningful. I generally prefer it when devs don't whore out social media just to get recognized, but I know in a lot of ways it's detrimental if they don't.
Yeah, it's terrible but the metrics show that if you get "Staff Picked" you get an increase of up to 40% just from people who visit Kickstarter - which apparently is driven a lot by social media presence. So we aim for that as it will hopefully get us up over some of the fun stretch goals. That being said, not gonna ask anyone to do it again because I agree it's pretty distasteful.
On the plus side, it looks like even if we are again not picked up by any journalists we should get baseline funding. Time to get my priorities back to principally development.
Post by: nenjin on September 23, 2014, 05:42:51 pm
DEMO DEMO - Belial and Karth are both playable in the demo, but currently only Belial has a proper tutorial. Haven't gotten back to it yet, I'll be able to give you a good estimate by the end of the week.
So we found out from a bunch of people that social media presence helps your KS project's search visibility (and getting it staff picked), so if you guys share/tweet/facebook or anything it's hugely appreciated. We really did not prioritize social media so we're a bit behind there, gotta pick up our facetweeting.
Our facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thatwhichsleeps
It's a sad truth of indie game development that an effective way of getting your name out there is enlisting as many people as you can into blindly firing the hype cannon into the TwitBookSpace and hoping it hits something meaningful. I generally prefer it when devs don't whore out social media just to get recognized, but I know in a lot of ways it's detrimental if they don't.
On the plus side, it looks like even if we are again not picked up by any journalists we should get baseline funding. Time to get my priorities back to principally development.
The benefit of picking a funded level that's believably consistent with your project. If you end up with 25 days of pure stretch funding, that can be in some ways a bigger success than the last minute, breakneck race to meeting a much higher funding level.
Post by: Jalak on September 23, 2014, 06:17:03 pm
Besides implied to be a formal mortal, we don't have much info on Sysiphus and what he does, and I can't even recall who Belial is and what his motivations are?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 23, 2014, 06:21:52 pm
And Sisyphus gets special options for imbuing agents as well as some kind of special interaction with the chosen one we don't know about yet.
Post by: Denim on September 23, 2014, 06:36:24 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 23, 2014, 07:20:46 pm
Belial is also our "intro" Old One, his powers are meant to allow you to recover from mistakes and poor planning. If you play as him originally, as you probably should, you won't see them as a crutch but as a fundamental element that is lost when transitioning to a different Old One. For instance, his ability to create Infiltration anywhere on the map means that even if you haven't had the foresight to plant a spy in a nation that may soon go to war with your allies you can quickly rectify that. In addition to that, his power over random events gives you the foresight to be able to capitalize on what otherwise would require you to well prepared for.
On top of that, he has abilities that hasten movement, cause effects to linger over multiple turns, and your more generic hero buffs. All in all, he reinforces the general mechanics of the game without distorting them. It may seem like that makes him "boring" but on the contrary his abilties make pursuing any path feasible and can lead to really interesting and unexpected situations. Also when he rises..... his power over random events is very, very fun.
Sisyphus represents the Fallen Man, who wanted to make the world perfect but in doing so lost his humanity. He has a lot of interesting powers revolving around agents, going so far as to create a council that a certain number of agents can join. He also wishes to bring the Chosen One to his side, and a massive arch revolves around that - for both the Chosen One and Sisyphus himself. His powers eventually allow him to create zones of "perfect tranquility" where his reign is absolute, and he can personally teach powerful ancient rituals to his agents.
Sisyphus was my favorite choice when we finished him, and remained so for awhile - but at this point I've played out his plot so much that I rarely use him for testing. Still, his ability to pacify the world combined with powerful heroes generates this incredible amount of tension on the sub-level below the military. As armies stand idly by and the world appears motionless, the heroes of the world are desperately trying to undo what you've done.
Kath is fun, and will always be fun - I never tire of raising massive orc hordes and burning places done. He is absolutely terrible on our Guilds and Trading map right now, it's almost sad seeing his orcs just sit waiting at the shore for boats that never come. Not sure if we need to adjust him, or if we simply allow that maybe some worlds just aren't meant to be ruled by some Old Ones.
Post by: nenjin on September 23, 2014, 07:35:47 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 23, 2014, 07:56:10 pm
Also, with the oncoming demo, how many features are actually going to be in the maps themselves? Are there going to be certain actions, classes and POI's grayed out from us? Is the editor not going to be in there and, if it is, only have the cosmetic part of it available or something?
Post by: Nick K on September 23, 2014, 08:27:45 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 23, 2014, 11:53:23 pm
By the way, I've had small question from way back near the start of this thread, so I should ask no before I forget: You said before that there is a wound that causes a hero to lose health every time they attack (cracked ribs, I think), so does that mean it's possible for a hero to literally kill himself if he has one health, or will he specifically hold off or run away (assuming that's possible)? I have to know this, since I think being able to do your job for you like that is hilarious.
For that matter, any chance for you to share a story of epic hero/nation stupidity? I want something to laugh at.
Post by: Karlito on September 24, 2014, 12:37:55 am
Post by: Sartain on September 24, 2014, 02:38:12 am
Stumbled over this today and read/watched every piece of media that you guys have put out. Going in at the lowest pledge level for the moment, but there's a whole month for me to be hyped up to a larger pledge ;).
If reading this thread doesn't hype you for the game, you're a cold man ;)
Post by: Cthulhu on September 24, 2014, 04:49:06 am
Colonel Kurtz as a special agent.
I like this more the more I think about it. You've got an asymmetrical map with lots of fringe nations and a few big powerful colony nations, the obvious way to go is fomenting rebellions but what about a god of avarice that drives the colonial lords to madness? Can the Chosen One escape Definitely Not King Leopold's rubber farms and convince the world of the rising danger?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 24, 2014, 09:11:41 am
RE: Wounds and a Hero Killing themselves - it used to happen ALL the time in our early builds back when the Hero AI wasn't fully fleshed out. Now it depends on their personality, a berserker will attack you even if it means his death, a vengeful character that hates someone will do the same, a heroic character will attack if he thinks it will kill you or save his allies, etc. Most of the time now, a severely wounded character will limp away - banking on the "cowardice" of heroes will win you many early fights, but as hope fades from the land the heroes get more desperate and will make more last ditch efforts.
Yeah we are excited at the KS success, my personal hope was 4k by the end of the first week and we really crushed that - without any media coverage as well. We're HOPING that one of the major indie media outlets picks us up this week or next (though still radio silence), and if we can get the demo into the hands of Youtube or equivalent by the third week we're probably in good shape to hit some of the stretch goals.
I really want to put Religion back in, it really opens up so many options in the game.
haha, we wouldn't be supporting Steampunk ourselves - that would have to be its very own tier or some kind of expansion considering how much work it would be. We don't handle "technology" as much as we handle "Government Types", we are comfortable providing a "stone age" experience up to roughly the renaissance because our government types support roughly these levels of technology and you can have a thematically consistent and interesting world.
Could you mod in steampunk? Pretty easily I suppose, if you are fine with the art being somewhat inconsistent - just make a "Victorian Republic" government type and replace all of the general actions for a government with ones that are more flavorful and sensible for that type of world. Defining its interactions with other nations, you may want to take the Empire -> Colony to look down on other civilizations or Civilized -> Empire to have a warier stance. Create some "tech" inspired military units, mod a class to make it an "Explorer" or something more steampunky, set the percentage spawn to the Victorian culture to make only these steampunk classes. Could work pretty well.
We are absolutely making a Colonial map that has elements of what you're saying, though it's not quite King Leopold's Ghost, more along the lines of Conquest of the New World. The scenario is very rough right now, but we're focusing a lot at this time on the difference in a Colonial Chosen One vs a Colonized Chosen One - just this one small difference greatly changes the way the game plays out.
Post by: Denim on September 24, 2014, 12:26:27 pm
Assuming that you make both the religion and multiple ancient evils stretch goals will there be an option to just have the ancient evils without the religion and gods? This would make it easy to play a Conan style world where benevolent powers don't exist and instead cults devote themselves to diabolical monstrosities.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 24, 2014, 02:24:39 pm
Glad to hear that motivation and personality are such a large part of enemy behavior. Having an AI that shows self preservation adds realism. Too many games feature enemies with suicidal aggression when it doesn't make any sense (self-serving sellswords choosing to fight to the death rather than run away).
Assuming that you make both the religion and multiple ancient evils stretch goals will there be an option to just have the ancient evils without the religion and gods? This would make it easy to play a Conan style world where benevolent powers don't exist and instead cults devote themselves to diabolical monstrosities.
AI self preservation and self interest are MAJOR components of the AI from heroes to kings, understanding what a given AI entity values will help you manipulate the world and achieve your aims.
Yep, all components are configurable - our commitment to mod support makes it relatively easy for us to also allow parameters to be modified when you start a new game. Play with all of the faiths or none, rival old ones or maybe just the Lesser Evils that follow jealously in your wake.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 24, 2014, 05:51:55 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/MKgilbK.jpg)
I messed up the Aventura Free State name, not noticing I overwrote the "Free State" part and I drew some borders around countries to get a view of who was where.
Post by: Jalak on September 24, 2014, 05:59:39 pm
You know, of everything I can see there, that innocent looking mountain on the tip of the continent at the right is what gets my attention the most. The fact that no one officially owns it, and that you can clearly see some sort of trail leading up it must mean there's something good for you there, and disastrous for everyone else (unless its some sort of stupid monk enclave). I MUST KNOW ITS SECRETS!
Post by: Cthulhu on September 24, 2014, 06:01:46 pm
RE: Karth and the Ocean - it's not that he CAN'T win that scenario it's just that you can't focus on the playstyle I enjoy most with him, which is just simply zerg waving the humans. To be honest, it's not really a strategy that wins a lot but I use while testing things because it's incredibly fun. I had success in the Trading scenario by buying up a pirate fleet BEFORE I raised a horde (if you have a horde the world is a little more suspicious of selling you a trading fleet) and then using that, but you can also pursue the other element of Karth's power, which is to cause Dangerous Tribes to form in spots of your choosing across the world, spreading chaos and allowing agents to recruit powerful minions in convenient locations.
RE: Wounds and a Hero Killing themselves - it used to happen ALL the time in our early builds back when the Hero AI wasn't fully fleshed out. Now it depends on their personality, a berserker will attack you even if it means his death, a vengeful character that hates someone will do the same, a heroic character will attack if he thinks it will kill you or save his allies, etc. Most of the time now, a severely wounded character will limp away - banking on the "cowardice" of heroes will win you many early fights, but as hope fades from the land the heroes get more desperate and will make more last ditch efforts.
Yeah we are excited at the KS success, my personal hope was 4k by the end of the first week and we really crushed that - without any media coverage as well. We're HOPING that one of the major indie media outlets picks us up this week or next (though still radio silence), and if we can get the demo into the hands of Youtube or equivalent by the third week we're probably in good shape to hit some of the stretch goals.
I really want to put Religion back in, it really opens up so many options in the game.
haha, we wouldn't be supporting Steampunk ourselves - that would have to be its very own tier or some kind of expansion considering how much work it would be. We don't handle "technology" as much as we handle "Government Types", we are comfortable providing a "stone age" experience up to roughly the renaissance because our government types support roughly these levels of technology and you can have a thematically consistent and interesting world.
Could you mod in steampunk? Pretty easily I suppose, if you are fine with the art being somewhat inconsistent - just make a "Victorian Republic" government type and replace all of the general actions for a government with ones that are more flavorful and sensible for that type of world. Defining its interactions with other nations, you may want to take the Empire -> Colony to look down on other civilizations or Civilized -> Empire to have a warier stance. Create some "tech" inspired military units, mod a class to make it an "Explorer" or something more steampunky, set the percentage spawn to the Victorian culture to make only these steampunk classes. Could work pretty well.
We are absolutely making a Colonial map that has elements of what you're saying, though it's not quite King Leopold's Ghost, more along the lines of Conquest of the New World. The scenario is very rough right now, but we're focusing a lot at this time on the difference in a Colonial Chosen One vs a Colonized Chosen One - just this one small difference greatly changes the way the game plays out.
I'd definitely not make it steampunk, I don't like steampunk. Probably victorian era played straight but with magic.
I figured it was more spanish colonial period but I really like the idea of a more modern Scramble for Africa scenario. Maybe some PC sort of risks but it could be rad. Powerful enclave-style colonial powers and a bunch of smaller tribes ranging from a few "good" ones that pose a big threat if they get active against you (maybe their ancestors sealed you before) to a few straight up bad ones who can easily join you, to some virulent anti-colonial ones that could go in multiple directions.
Maybe a unification quest chain with different results depending on which tribe completes it. Zulu-equivalents start posing a serious threat to the colonials if they get everybody on their side, others might be more diplomatic and risk uniting hte whole world against you.
Monkey god (the monkey who stuck his hand in the coconut and wouldn't let go of the fruit) foments greed and avarice and turns the colonials into rapacious monsters.
War god gets the anti-colonials going, spreads chaos and violence
Ebola god's (bad taste?) blood sleeps in your veins and he sings to it, gradually waking up the latent god in everyone. People start going nuts, turning into monsters, etc. When he fully wakes up (with a long timer like Azlan) he conglutinates, taking back his blood to reform his body, with predictably unpleasant results for everyone in the world.
Just pipe-dreaming now but who knows with that modding support!
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 24, 2014, 06:16:25 pm
I'd definitely not make it steampunk, I don't like steampunk. Probably victorian era played straight but with magic.
I figured it was more spanish colonial period but I really like the idea of a more modern Scramble for Africa scenario. Maybe some PC sort of risks but it could be rad. Powerful enclave-style colonial powers and a bunch of smaller tribes ranging from a few "good" ones that pose a big threat if they get active against you (maybe their ancestors sealed you before) to a few straight up bad ones who can easily join you, to some virulent anti-colonial ones that could go in multiple directions.
Maybe a unification quest chain with different results depending on which tribe completes it. Zulu-equivalents start posing a serious threat to the colonials if they get everybody on their side, others might be more diplomatic and risk uniting hte whole world against you.
Monkey god (the monkey who stuck his hand in the coconut and wouldn't let go of the fruit) foments greed and avarice and turns the colonials into rapacious monsters.
War god gets the anti-colonials going, spreads chaos and violence
Ebola god's (bad taste?) blood sleeps in your veins and he sings to it, gradually waking up the latent god in everyone. People start going nuts, turning into monsters, etc. When he fully wakes up (with a long timer like Azlan) he conglutinates, taking back his blood to reform his body, with predictably unpleasant results for everyone in the world.
Just pipe-dreaming now but who knows with that modding support!
Honestly, I love this idea - the New Imperialism of the late 19th century combines the last major "mysterious" element of human history with exploitation, empire, and the modern enlightenment. I would say that to do justice to such a compelling and interesting time period a new game is required, but certainly a modder could get a relatively decent feel for it. You may just have displaced a Wheel of Time mod with this as my most hoped-for quality community development.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 24, 2014, 06:16:59 pm
Nice.
You know, of everything I can see there, that innocent looking mountain on the tip of the continent at the right is what gets my attention the most. The fact that no one officially owns it, and that you can clearly see some sort of trail leading up it must mean there's something good for you there, and disastrous for everyone else (unless its some sort of stupid monk enclave). I MUST KNOW ITS SECRETS!
Absolutely nothing interesting happens on that mountain.... I swear .....
Post by: Jalak on September 24, 2014, 07:27:09 pm
So the Aventuran Free state is right next to two major hostile forces, that being the Golden Republic and you/your potential orc hordes. Hell, it looks like it's specifically in the scenario just to give an obvious target for the first-timer overlords.
The Golden Republic itself has to deal with various territories separated by sea and probably all too aware of the fact that slavery is not as popular as it once was. Wouldn't be too out there to assume that the rest of the world that they used to preside over hates them, so they seem a good target to flex your "diplomatic" muscles.
The Kingdom of Cylaria borders various tribal powers, some that would most likely be hostile to colonial imperialism, and the elusive elves residing there would probably give them pause to messing with the region too much. A unified tribal collective would be a scary thing for them indeed.
However, the Arden Protectorate is the odd one out to me in what you can do with them. Sure, the long coastline would be hard to defend, but they must have a pretty big army on hand to defend themselves. The Greywind/possible mount doom combo would certainly give them something to think about, but those all look like mid-late game problems. What would a player be expected to do with them in the early game?
Also, what happens when an army runs into an agent and decides they don't like them? Do they fight like they would against a hero? Can heroes be attacked the same way?
EDIT: Also, I just noticed that while the Golden Republic has a banner of a golden ship for their troops, there seems to be some sort of black and white banner sitting in the middle of their capital territory. Who are those guys?
Post by: Lapoleon on September 25, 2014, 01:20:53 am
Absolutely nothing interesting happens on that mountain.... I swear .....
You couldn't possibly be lying to us could you? That would be evil :) Anyway, I was also interested in the small village circled in orange at the top of the map. You mentioned there were orc hordes and some sort of order which were easy targets in the beginning and I think those were the one I circled in red. But there's this innocent looking village with a sort of hypnotic swirl on their shield which I find extremely suspicious. I think non-procedural generation really is better for this game, so you can have all these interesting POI's on the map.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 25, 2014, 02:16:01 am
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 02:27:34 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 25, 2014, 03:10:40 am
Cold War in the 1960s/1970s. You are playing an alien infiltrator or an Ancient Power awoken my nuclear testing or the like. Gives nice twist to Vietnam war, troubles in Africa and all that. One ultimate goal might be driving the superpowers into a nuclear war to destroy the world for aliens to colonize/because human are ugly/for lulz. Since CIA and KGB did actually do paranormal research into psychic powers at the time, having some MKULTRA or Rasputin agents running around with "magic" might be okay.
1930s have always seemed like an apocalyptic time to me. Hitler rising in Germany, Stalin in the east, xenophobic imperialists in Japan, the Business Plot in USA... just generic fuckery and evil regimes everywhere. I think it would make another interesting historical scenario. If you want to give humans magic, nazi cults etc are pretty common trope.
Bronze Age scenario concentrating around Mediterranean Europe/Africa/Asia would be interesting. There was a big crash of civilizations back then and we still don't know exactly why. Sea people ran around burning cities, but we aren't sure who they were or where they came from. The culture of Minos was demolished because of a natural disaster - or an unnatural one. Plenty of legends and mystery cults around, enough to throw in a monster or two.
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 03:19:02 am
Bronze Age scenario concentrating around Mediterranean Europe/Africa/Asia would be interesting. There was a big crash of civilizations back then and we still don't know exactly why. Sea people ran around burning cities, but we aren't sure who they were or where they came from. The culture of Minos was demolished because of a natural disaster - or an unnatural one. Plenty of legends and mystery cults around, enough to throw in a monster or two.A Karth-type holding domain over the Mongolians appeals to me in this manner.
Post by: Jalak on September 25, 2014, 03:29:13 am
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 03:32:01 am
Though that does sound interesting, especially since government of the galaxy is basically on top of the Great Seal equivalent.
Post by: Jalak on September 25, 2014, 03:33:44 am
Cold War in the 1960s/1970s. You are playing an alien infiltrator or an Ancient Power awoken my nuclear testing or the like. Gives nice twist to Vietnam war, troubles in Africa and all that. One ultimate goal might be driving the superpowers into a nuclear war to destroy the world for aliens to colonize/because human are ugly/for lulz. Since CIA and KGB did actually do paranormal research into psychic powers at the time, having some MKULTRA or Rasputin agents running around with "magic" might be okay.
I always wanted to represent the aliens in X-Com...
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 03:37:36 am
Must consider variations.
Post by: lijacote on September 25, 2014, 03:44:41 am
The Genabackan campaign and Kolansian trouble with the Forkrul Assail from the Malazan universe, along with Unta's rise... well. That is the extent of my fantasy recollection at this hour and level of caffeine intake. Oh, and the jaghut/imass wars.
Trying to muse on Elder Gods, I have a few in mind.
A god of death that could open the gates of the afterlife for a bunch of undead servants ("Hood's breath!" :p), increase unfortunate mortality . . . Maybe zombie plague.
Actually, that's all without going into plagiarizing. You could have a god that was exploded into many pieces, and had to fight or collect those other pieces, with those other pieces acting independently and with varying goals and strategies, but eh.
Eh. Anyway, still super pumped for the game. Can't wait for a demo, but I must. But thou must!
Post by: Jalak on September 25, 2014, 04:03:41 am
But that means we'd be the most evil plot device in all fiction!
Though that does sound interesting, especially since government of the galaxy is basically on top of the Great Seal equivalent.
That would probably end up as a pretty big problem, game-play wise. Since the Council....whatever that structure is called, is the heart of the space UN, having it as the great seal would have you discovered by "spectres" or other curious adventurers pretty quickly, since a lot of "fleets" would have to be going through it if the mod wants to represent it's importance accurately.
An idea to make it work, however, would be to have it as a normal POI under control of some neutral entity (or the Asari) and then have it connect to a POI located "outside" the galaxy that houses a crap load of Reaper military forces. However, the passage between the two POI is disconnected, and the only way to open it would be to get one of your agents to go to the space, perform a long and powerful "ritual" which opens the passage and allows the Reapers to go through, thus starting the purge. Maybe have other POI's with the same setup. The Great Seal itself could be the collector base, which only opens its passage if the chosen one (Shepherd) does a high-level quest.
Post by: Mithras on September 25, 2014, 05:28:04 am
Huh, you know, looking at the Aventuran Free State in relation to the rest of the world suddenly made me realize how small it actually is in comparison to rest of the world big powers. It got me thinking about all four major powers (five if you count the enclave) and what you can do to exploit their weaknesses.
So the Aventuran Free state is right next to two major hostile forces, that being the Golden Republic and you/your potential orc hordes. Hell, it looks like it's specifically in the scenario just to give an obvious target for the first-timer overlords.
The Golden Republic itself has to deal with various territories separated by sea and probably all too aware of the fact that slavery is not as popular as it once was. Wouldn't be too out there to assume that the rest of the world that they used to preside over hates them, so they seem a good target to flex your "diplomatic" muscles.
The Kingdom of Cylaria borders various tribal powers, some that would most likely be hostile to colonial imperialism, and the elusive elves residing there would probably give them pause to messing with the region too much. A unified tribal collective would be a scary thing for them indeed.
However, the Arden Protectorate is the odd one out to me in what you can do with them. Sure, the long coastline would be hard to defend, but they must have a pretty big army on hand to defend themselves. The Greywind/possible mount doom combo would certainly give them something to think about, but those all look like mid-late game problems. What would a player be expected to do with them in the early game?
From the developers discussion of the Arden Protectorate, it is a mercenary dictatorship ruling over an underclass of slaves, lacking Cylaria's strong cultural bonds. So I imagine a good early game approach would either be infultrate it or to encourage its colapse. However King has said that in the build from the begining of this month every other nation on the map (and a couple on the edges that we haven't seen yet) want a piece of it. So it's presented as easy to take control (due to the corrupt nature of the dictator and the fact that he's the only one to hold real power) but very difficult to do anything with, because any form of government change would basically lead to the country fracturing and it's neighbours going to war on it.
Personally, as soon as I get my grubby hands on Aslan (probably a long time away) I'm going to turn the dictator as loony as possible, partly to see how large a clue footprint that leads and partly to try and set Arden on a short term path of war and conquest that eventually leads to its fall, meanwhile the plan is to get a couple of the blue tribes under my wing and infitrate a couple of low fame agents into Cylaria, as soon as Cylaria becomes preoccupied with either fighting Arden or grabbing a piece of the pie from Arden's crumbling the plan is to burn the farmland and convince the corrupted tribes to jump in, ideally leaving us with a couple of strong allied tribes sharing a border with a fractured and warred over provinces which used to be Arden, at that point it would probably be sensible to move the focus of agents elsewhere and if possible wake the Baron as soon as it looks like it's all going to get cleaned up. But that's all pipe dreams for now.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 25, 2014, 05:31:50 am
Easy allies are abound in the Orc tribes and the Norscans, whilst more difficult quests might lead to an alliance with the Skaven or possibly (though rather difficult) the Vampire Counts.
Map:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The usual suspects would be:
Khorne: More or less the same as Karth, although more based around the Norscans than the orcs.
Tzeenth: Seems similar to Belial, as an all knowing God. Would be based on trickery and change (revolution etc.). I wonder if it's possible to give heroes a mutation, maybe it's possible to create a wound which won't be randomly assigned and which gives a huge malus on relations with civilized nations. I wonder what happens when a hero is exiled from everywhere.
Nurgle: Plagues, plagues everywhere. Would also have an easier time allying with the Skaven. Could probably be modeled on the Death Lord Old One once he returns in the game.
Slaanesh: The one which differs most from the Old Ones we've seen. Would have many agents focused on seduction and corruption. I think I've seen somewhere that heroes can marry, so that will certainly lead to possibilities. Also thieves guilds will be nice to corrupt, maybe focus them on brothels or something.
One problem is how to handle the fact that these are known threats and prevent random heroes from entering the Chaotic Maelstrom. Lorewise I also can't really see them waking up, so they'd have to have long wake-up times, representing the Growth of the Chaos Wastes more than anything else.
If possible to have multiple start locations there are extra options:
- The Horned Rat: Nobody believes the Skaven are real anyway, so keep it that way. Spread chaos and corruption without ever being suspected. Poison cities and fan the flames of war. Assassin Agents will roam the map and no king will be safe.
- Nagash, to quote the Warhammer Wiki: "Its believed that he is currently enacting his will in the world through the manipulation of others", he'd have control of the undead and access to extremely powerful magics. You can also use the Vampire Counts as easy allies and they are poised to strike at the heart of the Empire.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 25, 2014, 07:31:11 am
I'll probably kickstart this before the end, I certainly like how you're mixing a little RPG into your strategy. It's good to be bad.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 08:03:29 am
Armies and Agents/Heroes rarely directly interact (unless they are taking on roles as commanders or fighting in military battles). Agents can almost always slip right by armies as if they weren't there, unless the army is specifically tasked with trying to hunt an agent (which almost never happens unless you just publicly assassinated the King or equivalent). Even then the army only provides a bonus to heroes trying to find you. The most common way an army interferes with your goals is by raising Order passively simply by being present, and they make it much harder for you to Terrorize villages if the army is stationed there.
The Swirl Village sitting calmly near the top is the Order of Twilight, which was meant as an early path to securing Necromantic support but also a "Soft underbelly" for naval invasions against your power. However, it became so much more over the course of the game due to the fact that it is still fundamentally a human society. I had one really bizarre game where through a random event the Order developed a port, which gave them trade - the Golden Republic pounced on creating a trade route with them because trade with "uncivilized" and "Exotic" nations is worth a bonus, so then they also established a Merchant Guild branch there, which then led to a second overland trade route which the Order established with the emerging Lizard Kingdom in the swamps to the south. Fast forward multiple turns (I was busy testing something in the wild lands) and the Order progresses to a republic, the Lizardmen become a Monarchy, and they all join in an alliance with Aventura and the Golden Republic. Very odd, but this happened because trade routes can cause cultures to become closer together, and a society can shift it's government type if it becomes close enough with a more advanced government. It was worth it just to see the Lizardmen have a Grand Ball in the swamp.
Thanks! Just saw the RPS article, I think we can now safely start to dream of stretch goals.
You CAN set multiple starts, either by Old One or random.
Post by: Astfgl66 on September 25, 2014, 10:26:01 am
I hope you get more and more media coverage so that we can acheive stretch goals.
Good luck with the rest of your already successful Kickstarter!
(I just hope you have your priorities straight and that (eventual) stretch goals will not delay the game much.)
Post by: Nuttycompa on September 25, 2014, 10:29:05 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 25, 2014, 10:31:08 am
Post by: lijacote on September 25, 2014, 10:41:18 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 12:12:41 pm
Post by: ERICdb on September 25, 2014, 12:16:31 pm
I hope this shows the media the interest we have in your game so that even more people can help us reach the stretch goals.
I'm happy to be part of this, more if we consider this is my first bake ever.
Post by: nenjin on September 25, 2014, 12:52:08 pm
Post by: sjm9876 on September 25, 2014, 12:58:07 pm
Guess I'm finally getting the chance to figure out how much Kickstarter charges fro currency conversion :P
Post by: jhxmt on September 25, 2014, 01:05:08 pm
I had one really bizarre game where through a random event the Order developed a port, which gave them trade - the Golden Republic pounced on creating a trade route with them because trade with "uncivilized" and "Exotic" nations is worth a bonus, so then they also established a Merchant Guild branch there, which then led to a second overland trade route which the Order established with the emerging Lizard Kingdom in the swamps to the south. Fast forward multiple turns (I was busy testing something in the wild lands) and the Order progresses to a republic, the Lizardmen become a Monarchy, and they all join in an alliance with Aventura and the Golden Republic. Very odd, but this happened because trade routes can cause cultures to become closer together, and a society can shift it's government type if it becomes close enough with a more advanced government. It was worth it just to see the Lizardmen have a Grand Ball in the swamp.
If I hadn't already funded (congrats on the Kickstarter goal being met, by the way!), this story would have made me. :D
Post by: Astfgl66 on September 25, 2014, 02:30:33 pm
Now to Religion!
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 03:05:35 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on September 25, 2014, 03:38:32 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on September 25, 2014, 03:45:56 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 03:55:15 pm
Have you guys looked at AI War? Similar "don'twakestirunsettle the giant" thing.
We've gotten a lot of "Have you played AI War" questions and honestly I'm stumped as to why I never have - it clearly sounds like something both of us would love but it somehow just never happened. I may try to squeeze in some time to try it this weekend (along with another recommendation I got was Armaggedon Empire).
Post by: rylen on September 25, 2014, 04:15:54 pm
Ooh - Narnia, if we can get a rival old one (Emperor Across the Sea) to play against us. We can be whatever the Satan expy was. Thaklabilbus or something.
Aslan and his four Pevensie agents topple the queen.
Post by: RebelZhouYuWu on September 25, 2014, 05:46:06 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 25, 2014, 05:55:58 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 06:23:57 pm
Long story short, he discovers I'm rising and crushes me. Despite the fact that he was simply taking over the world he was friendly with every hero, so no one was stopping him. I ended up adjusting how heroes see other friends if they're growing too powerful, but the completely random events that lead up to this were otherwise "expected" to function that way. In addition, later builds implemented the Balance of Power desire which makes nations take a more critical eye at people who are growing stronger.
Now that's an outlier but still somewhat understandable based on the scenario setup, if you add in the Game Modes you get some real crazy stuff. I have a lot of favorite Modes, but on the North Burns playing with "Liberty" is a really fun way to switch it - it makes revolutions and slave revolts much more common and you get to see the world rip itself apart and remake itself.
Post by: Jalak on September 25, 2014, 06:37:47 pm
On that note, is "ideology" a thing in this game? Are there certain leaders/heroes that want to spread a particular government type to other nations, or really hate/love slavery (or maybe colonial-imperialism) and want to implant those views on other people and make puppet groups, rather then conquer them directly? Is there a Napoleon-esque guy running around?
For that matter, what other controversial policies are there represented in this game besides slavery and possible colonial-imperialism?
Post by: lijacote on September 25, 2014, 06:54:29 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 07:18:18 pm
Yes there are definitely political desires, the Aventurans as a state made up of former slaves have "Liberty" as an ideology which leads them to hate slave states. However we don't go into any of the more modern ideological constructs, the concepts remain fairly primitive and consist of mostly binary relationships (we like slavery/we hate slavery, strong government/weak government).
There are no puppet states, but nations can be carved out of other nations which are then generally allied with the power that helped free them. Napoleon type personalities can spawn, but to get to the state of Total War that one usually associates with Napoleon generally requires some push from the Old One.
Controversial... well... in a game of Evil you're bound to encounter controversial elements. We are never very explicit about these things, but the content of some events involve questionable content.
Post by: Jalak on September 25, 2014, 07:45:48 pm
So hows the
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 07:50:26 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 25, 2014, 08:37:13 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 08:47:32 pm
Post by: Vgray on September 25, 2014, 10:19:15 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 25, 2014, 10:54:42 pm
What generally happens is mid-late quests will begin to appear around you seal based on what you are doing, either recruiting hordes or building fortifications or excavating ancient ruins - these will pull heroes to investigate and see what's going on. If you play it right, they may come back thinking there's just a great orc king beyond the ruins, or possibly they may return having some suspicions but nothing more, or maybe you take care of them and ensure that no one hears about what they find.
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 12:57:28 am
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 01:11:16 am
I think everybody will be happier overall if the current "build" is based around polishing what's already done rather then add anything game-changing like those stretch goals would. I'm not just saying that because I want to be playing this game sooner rather then later, just that it honestly looks like you have everything you need to make a polished product for everyone to taste and don't need to add any more seasoning just yet, if that makes any sense. Granted, I don't know whats going on over there on your end, so I hope I'm not coming across as snobby or anything like that...
Post by: Vgray on September 26, 2014, 01:30:27 am
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 01:41:34 am
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 01:45:10 am
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 02:44:39 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 26, 2014, 03:29:50 am
I imagine modding this would be necessary for the inevitable WoT mod anyway.
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 03:43:22 am
Good god. You'd literally be Armok waking up and the adventurers would be your Agents.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 26, 2014, 03:55:07 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2014, 04:39:07 am
I mean, it isn't even like the game was particularly bad or that it was all based on promises impossible to keep (since, by all accounts, those early videos showed that what they were planning was totally possible), it was just that we were promised the world and then it never called us back.
We weren't even really promised the world. It was one video from like three years before the actual game came out, showing a very early prototype, and it was a TED talk and we all know how hard TED gets over happy pipe dreams about the future. I'm surprised they didn't talk about sending Spore to kids in rural Nigeria to teach them about evolution.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 26, 2014, 04:50:01 am
I mean, it isn't even like the game was particularly bad or that it was all based on promises impossible to keep (since, by all accounts, those early videos showed that what they were planning was totally possible), it was just that we were promised the world and then it never called us back.
What they showed was a mostly staged demo, from what I heard.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 09:58:33 am
The added time, which is not exceptional given that so many of its components do already exist, will absolutely be worth it. As for any other stretch goals, we would be moving all the way to having a fully functioning Early Access release - polished and all bugs fixed - before rolling in Rival Old Ones and other features, which would then be given to our Beta Tester tier players to help us develop and polish properly.
I absolutely understand your concern, so many games have been huge disappointments - and I remember being so excited about Spore and its revolutionary potential.... then playing it for 3 hours and never looking at it again. That Which Sleeps, like DF, is very humble at its base - allowing us to create a lot of depth without the programming and testing being excessively complex. We did it that way so we could make a game with this many options, one that everyone can mod to do exactly what they want without any difficulty.
Post by: Nick K on September 26, 2014, 12:22:36 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 12:33:48 pm
Post by: Nick K on September 26, 2014, 02:51:38 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 03:57:27 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 26, 2014, 03:58:05 pm
Speaking of which, you planning on releasing this on GoG too? Some people have issues with Steam.
I think they've said at some point that they have a non-DRM option planned as well. Wasn't GOG from what I recall though.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 26, 2014, 03:58:46 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 03:59:49 pm
I'm really hoping we get to the 40k stretch goal.I'm just hoping we get to every stretch goal.
And then some.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 26, 2014, 04:04:52 pm
So for clarification, KingDinosaur what exactly *would* the procedural tier add? Would it change [increase or decrease] development time in a significant way? If you've posted this a million times just link me to it. It's just there's so much info coming out of you it's hard to find specifics, heh.
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 04:06:08 pm
Post by: lemon10 on September 26, 2014, 04:08:54 pm
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 04:13:57 pm
Tell me if I'm wrong, O dev, but I think that's what it is.
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 04:23:32 pm
Is there any chance of additional stretch goals if you reach the $53k mark with a lot of time to spare?
Considering the absolute massive amount of content that's already being promised, the best thing would probably just refine and polish everything with the extra money. I remember saying earlier in the thread how too much content and detail can be extremely scary to new players and downright confusing to even veterans. Those Supreme Ruler games would be a good example of this. How the hell are you supposed to play that game? I have no idea what I'm doing in those and the manual doesn't exactly help either.
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2014, 04:25:38 pm
Flail around like I do in Fortress mode? It usually kinda works.Is there any chance of additional stretch goals if you reach the $53k mark with a lot of time to spare?
Considering the absolute massive amount of content that's already being promised, the best thing would probably just refine and polish everything with the extra money. I remember saying earlier in the thread how too much content and detail can be extremely scary to new players and downright confusing to even veterans. Those Supreme Ruler games would be a good example of this. How the hell are you supposed to play that game? I have no idea what I'm doing in those and the manual doesn't exactly help either.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2014, 05:00:24 pm
As far as the actual map goes, how does non-POI space factor into the game? We've seen poison zones and droughts and such on the map that don't seem immediately linked to a POI, is there like passive or invisible population and such going on outside the POIs? Is the territory of different kingdoms realized on the map; like if there were some kind of colored overlay could we see the shifting boundaries of each power?
Post by: Nick K on September 26, 2014, 05:07:00 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 05:58:29 pm
The game already kind of seems like that could happen. Just so much stuff to do especially considering you can drop an agent in any POI when you recruit him.
The fact that the game seems to a tool tip for everything you mouse over at least guarantees that you'll be constantly reminded of what everything does. So it has that going for it.
I'm actually hoping that population and so on is all in the POIs. I think it adds a lot to immersion if instead of there just being some abstract population number in the background all the people are in those towns and villages we see on the map. That way your undead hordes could turn a kingdom into an ashen wasteland village by village with the desperate heroes and nobles desperately gathering whatever forces they can to stop the onslaught before too many are dead.
I wonder if it's realistically possible (as in, you don't need to go out of your way from trying to win to do it) to render a continent or large island so chaotic and under your sway that there are no nations to speak of, rather the only thing not under your control you find would be heroes visiting from outside in search of bringing order to the blasted hellscape that is your domain. That would be so cool.
Also, are there any plans for a scenario that features a few large landmasses separated from each other? As in, there is some sort of permanent mist or curse rendering the pathways to the other land inaccessible and you have to either do a hero quest or agent ritual to dispel it and bring the two (or more) sides to interact with each other again?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 06:10:03 pm
Everything happens in the POIs, it's really the "secret" to our ability to have so much content - by reducing the actual gameworld to just these locations it makes the amount of content and the believe AI feasible. Effects do cross the POI boundaries but that's because the Nations/Regions compute areas based on the boundary POIs, just to allow for things like the dynamic Country names and particle effects to help with visualization.
We visualize almost ENTIRELY at the POI level, with the connections sometimes used to show supply/trade. There has been discussion of adding a colored regional display, but I don't think we'll end up taking that route. I think you'll find that the zoomed out view POI visualization (for guilds, population, culture, etc) actually is functional and looks pretty good too.
Alright, so Procedural... I have written a lot but I'm as lost as you are when I try to find it. It breaks down in two ways.
1) We will commission 2D Painted-Style tiles to be used for map construction, this takes up the majority of the money accounted for by the stretch goal. We assemble these tiles OUTSIDE of the main game itself, and they are assigned values based on their location and neighbors. POIs are then spawned "logically" (this is the part that is annoying to test) and we begin our second phase.
2) We aren't going Dwarf Fortress full on genealogical, it's just not possible for either in the timeframe provided or to even do justice to it. What we have come up with is an interesting way to do it that pivots off the POI structure already in place. Essentially we begin with the beginning of this world, generally the birth of the elder races and human tribes. Turns pass automatically, and every turn each power on the map "takes an action" which can range from expanding, to developing its culture, learning a spell, etc. These are dictated by the governmetn type and culture - for instance a Tribal culture has a max count of 3 POIs, if it is at 3 it will either develop its culture or one of its POIs will break off to a new tribe with the same culture. This process continues over time, and you will have an ebb and flow of your power which can be used to "influence" events as they happen. Eventually your "rise" occurs which lets you almost freely interact with the world, followed by your "fall" and then the world moves along as normal. We plan on adding in simple mechanics like a "golden age" for cultures or to spawn a famous leader who will temporarily provide a bonus, and who will leave "artifacts" or spells with their name on it when the game begins some time later.
That may seem like a lot, but it's not - once again using the POIs as simple data structures we have already managed to POC this. The main game itself is not altered because we import the resulting sprite from the tiles into the game with the POIs just like any scenario. A discussion is ongoing on whether or not we upload this tool so everyone can see it, it's VERY ugly at this point (I built it in native NGUI windows like our original alpha) but it really does let you see how it would work with relative ease.
It will add development time, but we will be addressing it "after the fact" - that is after an early access build without this feature is running bug-free.
Endless mode frees the game from its dependencies on the Old One rising as the main crisis point of the game. We would redesign elements of the game to let your old one operate like more like a "peer" in the world as long you play your aggression properly - lay forever asleep and watch the world or rise up and try to be a benevolent ruler. There's a LOT of backend work done on this stretch goal, which will let its true potential be unlocked by modders and scenario builders. We also will be adding in a Prophecy Randomization that gives you "strange" goals to achieve that will unlock the prophecy of your return, essentially providing additional challenges to the game (though they certainly feel rather gamey).
Both of these are fully configurable - with Procedural Generation you can simply choose to play a regular scenario, and the elements of Endless Mode will be added to the already existing Game Mode system which lets you customize your experience.
After 53k? The only thing I would consider adding is more art tiers, because they would involve no work on our end simply contracting. I would love to add Voiceovers to the Agents and Heroes but there's just so much involved in that process, the budget isn't even the major constraint.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2014, 06:20:48 pm
It looks like the design of hte map solves that problem a bit, you've got a good set of immediately obvious options with the orcs and necromancers and Aventura right there and can always try fancy stuff out later on when you know the rest of the map better.
Post by: Mithras on September 26, 2014, 06:44:54 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 07:29:59 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 07:37:35 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2014, 08:47:01 pm
Also a good example of multiple villains. Think that could be a possible interaction? Less morally black-and-white characters and factions temporarily working with one villain to keep a much much worse one from rising?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 26, 2014, 09:20:49 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 26, 2014, 09:24:10 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2014, 09:59:34 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 27, 2014, 02:21:27 am
Post by: ERICdb on September 27, 2014, 04:26:54 am
Thank you again!
Edit: I've just noticed you've been keeping answering questions in the Reddit "Questions?" threat so my bad. In fact I carelessly open a new threat to ask a question.
Post by: Demiurge on September 27, 2014, 10:31:16 am
haha - I'm getting no development done right now as is - we've got a lot on our plate that is constantly distracting so I'm handling a lot of infrastructure work. I need to expand our tester program to prepare for Beta backers, have to update our terrible website, working on a solution to our dynamic sentence localization support problems, and I need to get my automated scripts that we use for PC regression testing working on Mac and Linux.
Well I'm sure you'll have no shortage of volunteers willing to debase themselves for a chance at it before the KS ends ;)
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 27, 2014, 12:06:04 pm
Jalak - no tech advances, we handle technology through government types and we wouldn't be adding any beyond the "medieval/renaissance" era. I also don't think this paradigm would work that well in a Shadowrun type setting, which would really benefit from its own game.
Races that can exist as distinct nations are represented separately, but our art assets are currently all pretty much Human, Orc, Dwarf, Elf - since we've been funded we'll be expanding to support a few more, and as funding increases we'll be slipping in more interesting races as we can. They generally have distinct government types and cultures, and feature very unique Elite Units and Heroes.
Ah ok, so I suppose I should clarify on distance. So it is technically true that there is no sense of distance for the POIs, but we do still render onto a 2D grid, so distance does exist in that sense. If a hero/agent can "fly" we calculate where they can go by drawing a simple circle with a radius of X, and we use that for Rituals as well - this is visualized for you when you would select the Ritual. In this regard I misspoke when I said distance is arbitrary, we do calculate distance between POIs on the map for some effects.
Shadowmere on the other hand expands by flagging POIs, and they travel by road connection - he can move anywhere in his domain so it also doesn't calculate based on distance.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 27, 2014, 12:58:19 pm
Post by: ERICdb on September 27, 2014, 04:17:27 pm
So gods and religion are definitely making it in...just a few hundred from hitting that stretch
Isn't it exciting? The game seemed to had lots of potential in its original state, and seeing the KK going so well I can't imagine the new situations that can derive from those expansions.
In that regard, though, I'd be pleased if anyone knows how many other big sites of indie-news such as "Rock, Paper, Shotgun" are out there to kind of know if we can expect another of those temporary boosts on backing.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 27, 2014, 04:26:29 pm
Corruption is the option that seems to have the most potential. I imagine even if the followers realize their god is acting strangely, it's not so easy to overthrow him/her/it as it would be a mortal king.
I also like the thought of laying a trap for some brave warrior god; manipulating them to step down to the earth to 'vanquish' you, only for them to fall into your clutches - rather like the 'disguise danger level of PoI for Heroes' thing you discussed. I imagine the gameplay might be a bit too derivative at that point, of course.
Post by: Demiurge on September 27, 2014, 04:28:25 pm
So gods and religion are definitely making it in...just a few hundred from hitting that stretch
Isn't it exciting? The game seemed to had lots of potential in its original state, and seeing the KK going so well I can't imagine the new situations that can derive from those expansions.
In that regard, though, I'd be pleased if anyone knows how many other big sites of indie-news such as "Rock, Paper, Shotgun" are out there to kind of know if we can expect another of those temporary boosts on backing.
I think once a bunch of Youtube folks get a hold of it and do let's plays with a (hopefully robust) demo we'll see a huge jump. It's interesting because just yesterday I was watching Scott Manley comment on the whole Space Base DF-9 debacle and he specifically said he'll never plug a kickstarter unless it has a working demo. Scott usually focuses on sci-fi games but I'm sure he'd be interested in trying out That Which Sleeps :)
Post by: Jalak on September 27, 2014, 05:04:06 pm
I think once a bunch of Youtube folks get a hold of it and do let's plays with a (hopefully robust) demo we'll see a huge jump. It's interesting because just yesterday I was watching Scott Manley comment on the whole Space Base DF-9 debacle and he specifically said he'll never plug a kickstarter unless it has a working demo. Scott usually focuses on sci-fi games but I'm sure he'd be interested in trying out That Which Sleeps :)
Wait, what?
"reads DF-9 post"
Oh Goddammit, I invested in that!
Post by: dennislp3 on September 27, 2014, 05:27:42 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 27, 2014, 05:32:25 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 27, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
Another question for the game; is that Aventuran Free State and Golden Republic actually at war or were we seeing some sort of raiding force in the showcase videos? How complex can the diplomacy between nations get, anyway?
Post by: ERICdb on September 27, 2014, 06:20:51 pm
I'm relatively certain that a demo would at least get his attention on that, especially since I can't even think of a kickstarter that showcased a demo in the middle of it.
From my little knowledge I can say that usually KK projects tend to stabilize quickly from the first money volleys and that there isn't much funding in the middle of the project. A good demo could mean an excuse for media or those Youtubers to show the KK again, thus eliminating that middle-desert. It could be interesting to see if that actually happens :P
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 27, 2014, 08:13:38 pm
Yeah, I think that if the KS slows down next week it gives us great opportunity to finish up the demo and get it out for Week 3-4, and if it doesn't well... then we're still moving towards stretch goals so its a win-win.
Ah the Gods - so the power of the Gods depends on their need for religion being satisfied. Your normal greek inspired pantheon god gets access to better passive benefits and miracles the more Temples he has - however in order to activate these powers they require "faith" - faith is not only the currency of their powers but also a mark of their vitality. A god filled with faith is a powerful force, a god with little faith may drop off the scene entirely... or something more nefarious may happen to him.
Faith raises based on the God's aspects - a God of war gets it from battles being fought, a God of the Hearth accumulates it over time from his followers, a God of the Harvest grows stronger as food generation increases. The God of the Harvest in your way? A drought will sufficiently weaken him.
The question of whether or not thety actually DO anything is important - a God of War doesn't care for the well being of his worshipers, he just wants them to fight. Expect to face little direct interference from a God of Thieves, but maybe the Lord of Life will directly oppose you if you begin to raise undead hordes. However, even the most apathetic god will lash out if you begin to tread on his immortal terrain - keep the fight firmly rooted on the ground unless you are prepared to take the battle into the heavens.
Religions in the demo = 0, Religions in the NEXT demo = probably 13 or so. They're principally dynamic, but can be set static per scenario - Gods can also arise if no god currently fulfills an active Aspect. For example, if there is no God of Trade but trade is flourishing one may be born (unless you anticipate and begin to capture that energy.)
Oh yes, you can kill the Gods - you can also subvert them and claim their Aspect for your own - a big payoff but it's a huge gamble. In order to "play the religion game" you permanently siphon off some of your own power, and if you aren't careful a God may take it for his own.
The "Big Fish" left that is realistic is Kotaku - we actually got on IGN Spain but they don't really have the following that the main IGN page has, but I would doubt we would get up there. Kotaku is feasible, and is probably the only site left that would get us to Procedural Generation.
DF-9, I was not a backer but if I was I would be furious. Absolutely no excuse for a company to assume ongoing crowdfunding would support development, but I'm also personally disappointed because the game sounded amazing.
Post by: SharpKris on September 27, 2014, 08:43:11 pm
also smaller youtubers are very relevant as they cherish every opportunity given to them and will praise the crap out of your game given the chance.
you'll see that once one person posts a "let's play" it spreads like wildfire
Post by: dennislp3 on September 27, 2014, 08:45:47 pm
Give a streamer the game a week before everyone else and you have a LOT more poeple looking into it and what not...do the demo first and you are more likely to lose a bit of edge since people would be less interested to tune in to that particular stream...regardless...pretty win win
Post by: birdy51 on September 27, 2014, 09:55:54 pm
Best of luck to ye!
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 28, 2014, 12:44:36 am
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
Post by: Xantalos on September 28, 2014, 12:48:46 am
Post by: ERICdb on September 28, 2014, 04:53:10 am
Kicktraq has this trending for 80k minimum
101k actually, even better!
Kicktraq: 80-100K
Kickspy: 56K
But even if we suppose that the rest of the crowdfunding goes really bad, let's say... 500/day x 24days= 12k. Total: 12+23=35k. Rival Old Ones mode activated.
Post by: Jalak on September 28, 2014, 05:25:12 am
Also, if the Rival stretch goal were to be reached, how powerful would these rivals be in relation to you? Would they be able to do everything you can and practically act like an NPC Old One, or are they more like "regional" terrors that are as much a hazard to you as they are to the world?
Post by: Demiurge on September 28, 2014, 05:44:13 am
What is Azlans special purpose compared to the other old ones? Does he take after Cthulhu in that he focuses on causing panic and sending heroes and populations insane or does he have something deeper then that?
Also, if the Rival stretch goal were to be reached, how powerful would these rivals be in relation to you? Would they be able to do everything you can and practically act like an NPC Old One, or are they more like "regional" terrors that are as much a hazard to you as they are to the world?
Azlan gets a total of 15 power orbs by the endgame, that seems pretty huge considering that most of the gods get between 4 and 10. He also has abilities that hide him and mess with peoples heads and dreams so he seems to be an advanced stealth manipulator god who doesn't want to go overt at any time. Plus once he hits 15 orbs he straight up wins the game. We don't know what his later abilities do but a lot of infiltration rituals, such as doppelgangers, use a lot of power so he can leverage a ton of magic around the world through empowered agents.
Post by: Neonivek on September 28, 2014, 06:07:59 am
Post by: Vgray on September 28, 2014, 07:30:15 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on September 28, 2014, 09:29:53 am
Kicktraq has this trending for 80k minimum101k actually, even better!
Kicktraq: 80-100K
Kickspy: 56K
But even if we suppose that the rest of the crowdfunding goes really bad, let's say... 500/day x 24days= 12k. Total: 12+23=35k. Rival Old Ones mode activated.
I'm sure this has already been posted here or elsewhere, but. (http://xkcd.com/605/)
To me 500$/day doesn't sound "really bad" when I think about this particular game, but I haven't been keeping up with kickstarters in a while now so I don't know if there's a reliable trend I'm missing.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 28, 2014, 12:16:11 pm
What is Azlans special purpose compared to the other old ones? Does he take after Cthulhu in that he focuses on causing panic and sending heroes and populations insane or does he have something deeper then that?
Also, if the Rival stretch goal were to be reached, how powerful would these rivals be in relation to you? Would they be able to do everything you can and practically act like an NPC Old One, or are they more like "regional" terrors that are as much a hazard to you as they are to the world?
Azlan gets a total of 15 power orbs by the endgame, that seems pretty huge considering that most of the gods get between 4 and 10. He also has abilities that hide him and mess with peoples heads and dreams so he seems to be an advanced stealth manipulator god who doesn't want to go overt at any time. Plus once he hits 15 orbs he straight up wins the game. We don't know what his later abilities do but a lot of infiltration rituals, such as doppelgangers, use a lot of power so he can leverage a ton of magic around the world through empowered agents.
Azlan's core ability is that he can mark X number (more orbs the more he can do concurrently) of people and slowly alter their personality and traits - it is one of best ways to push the world in the direction you want but is compensated for by the lack of other direct powers that other Old Ones may have.
RE: Spymaster concepts - Azlan is a lot of fun to play, but I think it's because you are less a spymaster than a pupper master - pulling at the strings of the world. Do you have a few examples of failed spymasters types I could look at?
Old Ones themselves do NOT get worshipers, it is the religions of the world that get worshipers... but you can be the power behind the religion and essentially usurp the place of the God/Concept they were worshiping.
Rival Old Ones introduces three types of challenge
1) True Old Ones like yourself, these rise in the same as you and seek to manipulate the world via the same mechanics. You'll find yourself needing to identify who they are, figure out their goal, and then deal with them. Otherwise your war in the shadows gets a lot more cluttered.
2) Lesser Old Ones who have remained in the world, these great beings were never sealed away, and have created empires in the world for themselves. They function like normal nations but with a greater connection to ancient powers.
3) Ancient Creatures of Lesser Power - these are introduced through events, but also move through the world similar to heroes. They are ancient beings who never quite ascended to the ranks of power you have, they may serve you, or they may wish to usurp your position. Dealing with them is essential but complex.
So you have your "peer" element that will use the same mechanics as you, this is the most complex part of the game for us to deal with - principally from an AI perspective. Then you have nations that are run by Great Evils, and these lesser creatures that wander the world pursuing their agenda.
These elements are subject to change based on testing.
On funding trends - I hear they're all garbage, but from the metrics and postmortems I've read it isn't rare to raise 50-100% of what you raised the first week in the last week, while the middle two weeks are generally a slow trickle. I'm ECSTATIC that Gods are back in, such a good mechanic, but of course I look forward to the other stretch goals as well.
If it looks like we are going to reach Procedural Generation we will be able to rebuild the map, that is going to be an interesting collaborative process - I'll probably reach out to all the backers with sample styles and we'll settle on what we want our artist to create.
Post by: ERICdb on September 28, 2014, 12:22:48 pm
I'm sure this has already been posted here or elsewhere, but. (http://xkcd.com/605/)
To me 500$/day doesn't sound "really bad" when I think about this particular game, but I haven't been keeping up with kickstarters in a while now so I don't know if there's a reliable trend I'm missing.
What I've done is compare the TWS (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/#chart-daily)'s KK with the Reassembly (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/indievoyage/reassembly/#chart-daily) one. They are both games made by 1-2 people and more or less at the same time, although the later has a goal 2-3 times as much bigger and has a demo where you can craft some ships and see them fight with the IA. Since Reassembly will barely reach it's goal (if it does) I've though that it could be used as an example of a "bad" outcome for our own case, having in consideration that we've already reached some stretch goals and that that should be a positive factor. Then, knowing this, I've just looked at the bad days of their kickstarter and it seems something around 300-500. So, pretending we have bad luck and neither youtubers make videos with the expected demo or another big site such Kotaku makes us the day, we could say we can reach the aforementioned digit without excessive problems.
I'm just using my intuition so don't give it much credibility. Anyway, I think its interesting to make predictions. :P
Post by: sjm9876 on September 28, 2014, 12:25:45 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 28, 2014, 12:27:53 pm
So would category 3 be creatures similar to the Baron?
That's a pretty good analogy for power and ability to affect the world, but the AI would be radically different.
Post by: nenjin on September 28, 2014, 02:57:43 pm
I think my final number for this game is somewhere between $28k and $35k. It's already more than I thought it'd make, but I it's media push has finally occurred and passed. And I think it did pretty well for all that! If it's still pulling in ~$500 a day over the next couple days, it may make more. But generally there's the first spike due to media coverage, a steady but generally not significant increase toward the end, and then a final spike, usually to me dependent on what stretch goals are still reachable and how much people want them.
Post by: Xantalos on September 28, 2014, 04:21:57 pm
Post by: lemon10 on September 28, 2014, 05:43:56 pm
But there is going to be a demo coming out, and I am pretty confident that it will result in a hefty influx of media coverage and thus backers.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 28, 2014, 05:46:20 pm
When the demo comes.
When the demo comes >:o
Post by: rylen on September 28, 2014, 06:04:18 pm
You've said a few times that you will be polishing up for an "Early Access Release". This will be available for us folks in the sub-$50 seats, right? Just making sure I'm interpreting it correctly.
If you are looking for a post $53K goal, consider "Tiger by the Tail" mode. You take the role of one of the nations which is trying to secretly bridle and control a sleeping old one to help accomplish your goal. You get an expanded list the the nations regular actions to choose from and some protection from corruption by that old one. Bad things happen if your neighbors realize what you are doing. And extremely bad things should it get out from under your control.
(1) A necromancer and a psychopomp walk into a bar. Each places an order for his favorite spirit.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 28, 2014, 06:09:44 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 28, 2014, 07:27:40 pm
I'd like to hear a bit more about religion, especially how it interacts with magic and with politics (1). Is there, potentially, a spiritual dimension to TWS magic? Can gods call for their followers to do things? Can religious hierarchies do things without word from further up?
You've said a few times that you will be polishing up for an "Early Access Release". This will be available for us folks in the sub-$50 seats, right? Just making sure I'm interpreting it correctly.
If you are looking for a post $53K goal, consider "Tiger by the Tail" mode. You take the role of one of the nations which is trying to secretly bridle and control a sleeping old one to help accomplish your goal. You get an expanded list the the nations regular actions to choose from and some protection from corruption by that old one. Bad things happen if your neighbors realize what you are doing. And extremely bad things should it get out from under your control.
(1) A necromancer and a psychopomp walk into a bar. Each places an order for his favorite spirit.
Unfortunately playing as a leader/nation/hero would really need to be its own game, a lot of work would have to be done to make it playable inside That Which Sleeps and I'm not sure it would be that interesting (unless from a multiplayer perspective). Heroes and Leaders spend a LOT of time simply "waiting for a task to complete", which is great for you as the Old One but wouldn't so fun controlling them. That being said, what you describe is actually possible in game with a little bit of modding, it wouldn't truly simulate the leader experience but it could create, I think, a very fun Old One game with a focus on a particular nation.
Gods who have an interest in the world (many are rather apathetic) can give Quests much like Kings and Leaders can, but instead of giving a reward in gold it is simply a call to the faithful. As for spiritual, there are miracles that can be requested by Priests of the religion - but all of these actions require "Faith" which doubles as the vitality of the God - a Priest may ask for a miracle and have it granted, only to see a now weakened God swallowed up by a rival.
As for hierachies, it's a complicated question - the way we trigger events is either from an AI Entity, which for religion can be "the head of a religious institute" or "the God themself", or from a POI looking for its "random event". I put that in quotes because they are in great part predictable, so for instance if a POI contains a temple to a God it may have for its event something to do with the temple, which is as close to the hierarchy as you get. We do not simulate elements below the Leadership or the structures. However, more than one cult or religion of a God can be formed - so you may have a militant arm of a God's faith as well as a more peaceful interpretation. They rarely get along however.
Everyone who has pledged $10 or more will get Early Access, which will be launched in part by the determination of the Beta testers.
Post by: i2amroy on September 28, 2014, 09:34:56 pm
(Course that is assuming you end up with so much money you don't know what to do with all of it. :P)
Post by: Jalak on September 28, 2014, 11:16:58 pm
Post by: lemon10 on September 28, 2014, 11:26:32 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2014, 12:42:46 am
Post by: Jalak on September 29, 2014, 12:49:03 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Post by: Sartain on September 29, 2014, 03:29:22 am
Well, it's been officially a week since the start of the kickstarter and two stretch goals are already done with. Even if it craps out now, at least we have a guarantee of a solid game, right?
I was hoping we'd hit the religion mark but so long as it got funded I'm happy.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 03:46:54 am
I hope infiltrating and controlling religions will be a valid way to win the game and maybe the focus of some specific Old One. It would be an excellent way to a) gain power, b) cause chaos and c) weaken gods. Maybe some Old One could have a victory condition of killing all the gods? That is, removing their influence from the world. You could then achieve it by suppressing and destroying the religions or subvertni them or whatever. Likewise, I hope your agents can form up false religions worshipping your tentacular greatness!
The base victory conditions revolve around either significant Control of the Map or Reducing the World Into Anarchy, with the former usually accompanied by a healthy dose of the latter - though these are the base there are also other methods to win the game. With Gods and Religions we also introduce the Ascension path, which sets the Old One on a path through the heavens to absorb enough Aspects to be the one true power. It is definitely a less common path to victory, and changes the "Crisis" point of the game to revolve around the Gods defense of their very existence. Note that isn't just usurping faith and religions that accomplishes this, it would be your choice to begin attacking the Gods directly that forces their hand.
Cults are hidden, whereas religions are not - but cults can usurp Religions (Temples) of the God they are formed off of, supplanting the type of worship with their own. Cults have less Aspects then a Religion, but gain a more "extreme" power from it - which can range from your traditional brainwashing to ritual sacrifices to demon summonings.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2014, 04:11:53 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 04:17:39 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 29, 2014, 04:34:01 am
Anyway, I hope you guys can do the basic game ready first, then drop in extra features as sort of free DLCs, if it is sensible from programming point of view. I imagine having too many features to build at the same time can be overwhelming otherwise and people will be happy to experience the game earlier in a more basic format anyway.
Post by: ERICdb on September 29, 2014, 04:37:42 am
-I want to know about the gods and the other races. Some things that I can think of are the following. Do they have a different pantheon, or they can share gods? If its the latter, do they TEND to stick with different kind of cults of the same religion, or do they treat them it in a different way? I was thinking about elves praising the gods in a different way than a human could do, and also different than an orch would do. Does this have something to do with the polytheistic, monotheistic, or shamanistic cultures? Can any type of race have any type of religious culture?
-I also want to know more about the implications of the gods and religion in the combat system and its relation with the heroes. There are 3 new classes, and I suppose that all of them will be able to fight. But the Inquisitor's description says something about being dangerous for other heroes. Does this mean that heroes also have their faith and can be chased because of it?
Post by: ventuswings on September 29, 2014, 10:30:27 am
Still, how nuanced are these relationships? Do they consist of hidden numerical values or simple discrete categories? Does each individual have relationship for every other individuals they meet? Can these be exploited (such as siblings or couples whose death would have extreme influence on psych of the other for better or worse, or option to give hero false target of revenge then exploit said emotion)? Will heroes with different personality/willpower react differently to actions of their "friend"? How does people end up like/dislike someone and is this predictable?
I apologize for many questions but this seemed to be the topic that has not been discussed down to the very fringe.
Post by: Denim on September 29, 2014, 10:39:51 am
Will the gods have personality traits like heroes do that you can use to your advantage? Could I trick a hero into stealing a sacred relic of a certain god who has the trait "vengeful" and just watch as that god sends his faithful to kill that hero with overwhelming force?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 29, 2014, 11:29:01 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 11:55:35 am
That gives me a random thought - if you ever get around to multiplayer option, I hope it will include a fog of war regarding what Old One the other player is controlling. So you'd have to put your agents into investigating the same way as heroes do; maybe even reveal that Other Baddie to general public to make them do the fighting for you. This can already be put in as a mechanic with possible rival Old Ones in single player. This would match well with every Old One having a personal victory condition or a few to choose from among the pre-set universal victory conditions.
Anyway, I hope you guys can do the basic game ready first, then drop in extra features as sort of free DLCs, if it is sensible from programming point of view. I imagine having too many features to build at the same time can be overwhelming otherwise and people will be happy to experience the game earlier in a more basic format anyway.
Our intent is to do the base game first, have that fully released via Early Access - and then begin to introduce any stretch goals that we may hit after Gods and Religion.
When you say challenging the divinities in the heavens, are there maps for that?
No maps for challenging the divinities, like many elements of the game it will be handled abstractly - it's really the only way we can put this many features in the game.
Would going up the ascension path to godhood path cause your ancient evil to change into a divinity template? By this I mean will your powers and life force now be tied to the amount of faith you have stored up like other gods, or will you keep your ancient evil template where your power is dependent on your state of awakening? Or will you get both templates and you get a faith meter as well as awakening spheres?
Will the gods have personality traits like heroes do that you can use to your advantage? Could I trick a hero into stealing a sacred relic of a certain god who has the trait "vengeful" and just watch as that god sends his faithful to kill that hero with overwhelming force?
As far as how the Aspects will affect your Old One, we originally designed it to augment your role not for you to begin to collect Faith as a god might. We wanted the lost prayers of the people to represent their mistaken faith in your deception, not a valid (if terrible) choice in a new god.
Gods do have personality traits, which are also culturally linked, and the scenario you mention is a perfect example of this.
One thing I am curious about is how personal relationships work. They seem like important part in making each hero AI life-like, and clearly there exist some system: people don't mind unification of the world via "friend" (before tweaking I guess) and concept of "nemesis" must exist for there to be vengeful adventurers.
Still, how nuanced are these relationships? Do they consist of hidden numerical values or simple discrete categories? Does each individual have relationship for every other individuals they meet? Can these be exploited (such as siblings or couples whose death would have extreme influence on psych of the other for better or worse, or option to give hero false target of revenge then exploit said emotion)? Will heroes with different personality/willpower react differently to actions of their "friend"? How does people end up like/dislike someone and is this predictable?
I apologize for many questions but this seemed to be the topic that has not been discussed down to the very fringe.
Hidden numerical values which then express themselves in qualitative terms if certain thresholds are reached. Everyone who bumps into someone else gets a base impression, modified by how their traits rub each other - questing together successfully tends to make adventurers more friendly towards each other and being a part of something frustrating tends to lower their relationship. The Heroes absolutely act differently depending on the relationship they have with others, loyal Heroes will never abandon a friend and will come to their aid if in trouble, vengeful heroes will seek retribution on the Agent who slays or cripples a friend, etc.
Bunch of questions:
-I want to know about the gods and the other races. Some things that I can think of are the following. Do they have a different pantheon, or they can share gods? If its the latter, do they TEND to stick with different kind of cults of the same religion, or do they treat them it in a different way? I was thinking about elves praising the gods in a different way than a human could do, and also different than an orch would do. Does this have something to do with the polytheistic, monotheistic, or shamanistic cultures? Can any type of race have any type of religious culture?
-I also want to know more about the implications of the gods and religion in the combat system and its relation with the heroes. There are 3 new classes, and I suppose that all of them will be able to fight. But the Inquisitor's description says something about being dangerous for other heroes. Does this mean that heroes also have their faith and can be chased because of it?
Religion is based on culture, so Races with strong cultural unity will tend to have their God(s) and their God(s) alone - but there is nothing that explicitly prohibits sharing gods with another race. It's an interesting idea to allow the Races to have their own 'method' of expressing faith, and having religions/cults reflect that - but it isn't currently in the design, and I think it might be an over-complication of the system.
Absolutely - it's important to note that Heroes don't always do "Heroic" things, they do what their Archetype AI and interests point them towards. For an inquisitor, if he is not pursuing an actual heretic of the faith he may find a local Hero of another faith and persecute him. So yes, Heroes and their faith will definitely be an important part of the game if Religions and Gods are enabled.
Post by: rylen on September 29, 2014, 01:38:06 pm
As far as how the Aspects will affect your Old One, we originally designed it to augment your role not for you to begin to collect Faith as a god might. We wanted the lost prayers of the people to represent their mistaken faith in your deception, not a valid (if terrible) choice in a new god.
How hard would it be to mod a fallen god Old One who is greatly dependent on mewling supplicants?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 02:03:08 pm
As far as how the Aspects will affect your Old One, we originally designed it to augment your role not for you to begin to collect Faith as a god might. We wanted the lost prayers of the people to represent their mistaken faith in your deception, not a valid (if terrible) choice in a new god.
How hard would it be to mod a fallen god Old One who is greatly dependent on mewling supplicants?
Relatively straightforward - we have passive modifiers for Old Ones that can adjust the rate of their Power increasing. Attach it to faith and your Old One will not rise without enough people calling his name, knowing or not what it is they're calling for.
Post by: Zangi on September 29, 2014, 03:13:12 pm
Though, I guess some of em won't be willing to work with some of your allies/minions, no matter how much you pay em I reckon. And there may be some danger of them having a revelation and gaining a conscious if you do too much shady/horrible things with em?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 04:57:53 pm
Post by: Jalak on September 29, 2014, 08:44:11 pm
Also, do agents and heroes fight armies as well, or do they not interact with each other that way?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 29, 2014, 09:12:45 pm
Agents and Heroes while going about their business ignore armies, but they can join with an army to participate in battles.
Post by: Jalak on September 29, 2014, 10:07:54 pm
Also, congrats on the staff pick for your kickstarter. Don't know what it does, but congrats all the same.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 30, 2014, 04:15:19 am
Thanks! Staff pick is apparently a big deal, we're not quite sure why but postmortems suggest it gets you significantly increased funds.
We just posted our update, it has another shorter video in it just to go over some concepts in brief. We're hoping to gather up some questions from it and then release the next Dev Log style video later this week which will go over the concepts in detail. Not sure if people enjoy hearing me talk on the Dev Logs or they'd rather get more teaser type videos. Here I know you guys like the information, but in general the Dev Logs see very little viewership.
Post by: Xantalos on September 30, 2014, 04:31:02 am
Post by: Vgray on September 30, 2014, 04:33:34 am
Post by: lijacote on September 30, 2014, 05:42:57 am
Post by: ERICdb on September 30, 2014, 06:47:11 am
I, for one, enjoy listening to smaller games developers talk about their game. There tends to be more genuine comment and perspective on their game; I enjoy listening to people talking about their own work with less alienation.
Hahahaha, you foolish people! Do you really believe that a true worshipper of the Dark would maintain any promise? The true worshipper doesn't develop a game where you can praise and utilize the Deceiving Arts, but tricks everyone into think he will do it, and then they disappear in the shadows, never to be seen again. What is more ironic that to mislead those who think they can mislead the others?
It's over guys, and too late to react. The Trap has already been activated and we shall admit our defeat.
(Just joking.)
Post by: Jalak on September 30, 2014, 07:12:24 am
On the subject of movement; do the heroes and non-controlled armies already have their movement predetermined at the start of the turn, so having sufficient infiltration could tell you where they are going and let you react to them?
Also, when it comes to when battles and the like happen during a turn, do you move an army/agent into a POI with an enemy and the battle occurs immediately (assuming the army/hero knows you're there and has a reason to fight), or do you need to wait until the start of the next turn before the battles actually begin?
...Holy crap, I just realized that demo = demonstration. Gah, I can't believe it took me this long to figure that out!
Post by: rylen on September 30, 2014, 07:17:35 am
I, for one, enjoy listening to smaller games developers talk about their game. There tends to be more genuine comment and perspective on their game; I enjoy listening to people talking about their own work with less alienation.
Ditto. It is definitely a matter of different parts of the audience wanting different things, but I enjoy a deep look at what is going on.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 30, 2014, 09:17:22 am
Remind me which Agents you can hire right from the start? And what they do?
The four starting agents are the Prophet, the Rake, the Hermit and the Peddler. At this point we've seen the Peddler and Prophet in action and heard some things about the rake. What the Hermit does is unknown as far as I know. Here's the short overview:
The Prophet: Your starting agent. Grows in power as you grow in power. His special Scheme depends on the Old One and on scenario choices. Is best in Command stuff if I remember but is probably good in Arcane stuff as well. High Profile because he can't stop talking about how awesome you are.
The Rake is the roguish/espionage Agent. Who's best at agitating and infiltrating. We've seen him becoming high priest of a religion.
The Peddler is a low profile agent who can sell stuff to heroes and is good at not being found out. We've seen him creating plagues.
Other known agents: the Guildmaster and Baron Greywind.
KDG, I have two questions: will it also be possible to create entirely new types of POI in the editor? Something like a pyramid or something, or is it only possible to use the types of POI in the base game? And the second is do your power markers recharge fully automatically or will they recharge only by stuff like sacrifices etc.?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 30, 2014, 11:27:33 am
Release both just to be sure?
Yep we're releasing the Dev Log later in the week.
I suppose that is possible. I imagine that a way to disprove your heathen thoughts would be...oh, I don't know...a demonstration of some sort coming out in the next week or so? Anything could happen.
On the subject of movement; do the heroes and non-controlled armies already have their movement predetermined at the start of the turn, so having sufficient infiltration could tell you where they are going and let you react to them?
Also, when it comes to when battles and the like happen during a turn, do you move an army/agent into a POI with an enemy and the battle occurs immediately (assuming the army/hero knows you're there and has a reason to fight), or do you need to wait until the start of the next turn before the battles actually begin?
...Holy crap, I just realized that demo = demonstration. Gah, I can't believe it took me this long to figure that out!
You are correct, that infiltration will let you predict movement. If you moved your army into another you will immediately have a battle, if your agent moved there and the hero is hunting you there would be at worst be a combat after you end your turn.
ON POIs - yep you specify a new type, the X and Y of the collider rectangle, the offset for where to place Agents/Heroes adjacent to it, then fill in the regular stats. Once you've created it you can select it in the Build menu and just drag it to a new location, or if you select an existing POI you can change it tot his new type.
Post by: ventuswings on September 30, 2014, 11:32:11 am
Will it be possible to change Hero portrait mid-game? While new art work for the heroes are exciting, the old graphics had the benefit of there being unique artwork for every hero. While I understand their names can be changed, their appearance stands out first and much more easier to remember & recognize. I also incorporate role-play element into my playthrough sometimes and I would appreciate better customization option for that one random hero that managed to thwart the plan of my Agent. If this functionality turns out to be too minor or difficult to implement, I wonder if you could release the 'anime' hero files as separate add-on; I personally don't place too much value on the graphics so their glaring disparity would hurt my enjoyment little.
Edit: Also, could you give me information on how recovery of red orb spent during the turn works? Do they recharge automatically over time or require special action, and if so, is it different from the actions which allow the player to gain extra red orb?
Post by: nenjin on September 30, 2014, 11:38:56 am
Post by: Denim on September 30, 2014, 11:42:37 am
Some kind of influence decay mechanic would give players an interesting dilemma whenever they have the chance to have an agent take on a title or position; is taking this position worth having my agent being partly tied down to this area or is it better to keep my agent free to be sent to where he is most needed?
Or maybe there can be a usurper mechanic where your agent's influence does not change but if your agent has been out of contact with his cabal/guild/position for too long then a lower ranking member will attempt to take his position and influence in one go. The amount of time you could be away safely could depend on your agent's leadership stat (with higher leadership allowing you to remain away for a longer time).
Post by: Retropunch on September 30, 2014, 12:56:07 pm
In the most recent video the prophet overthrew the mason guild and had an option to make himself the new leader. If he had done that and then proceeded to spend all his time in a faraway land excavating a ruin (with no contact with guildmembers), would his influence and power over that guild slowly decay? I mean, any leader who just ups and disappears can't expect to show up years later and have everyone instantly obeying him like nothing had happened.
Some kind of influence decay mechanic would give players an interesting dilemma whenever they have the chance to have an agent take on a title or position; is taking this position worth having my agent being partly tied down to this area or is it better to keep my agent free to be sent to where he is most needed?
Or maybe there can be a usurper mechanic where your agent's influence does not change but if your agent has been out of contact with his cabal/guild/position for too long then a lower ranking member will attempt to take his position and influence in one go. The amount of time you could be away safely could depend on your agent's leadership stat (with higher leadership allowing you to remain away for a longer time).
I really like the idea of influence decay, and I feel it'd add a very interesting mechanic of having to choose between instant reward or flexibility. I imagine this would grow into an even more interesting balancing act as time goes on.
I can imagine it being combined with the second suggestion quite easily, with a mixture of the leadership stat decreasing decay, and usurpers only being able to take over after a certain level of decay.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on September 30, 2014, 01:27:06 pm
Post by: Karlito on September 30, 2014, 01:30:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 30, 2014, 01:42:29 pm
So is all interaction basically done at POIs, and movement between POIs is abstracted? I was just thinking about your "Haven" as a model for Rivendale, and while Sauron's minions couldn't enter, they'd lurk constantly just on its boarders waiting for the Fellowship to leave so they could gank them. Can you interact with heroes via Agents while between POIs, or cast spells at them? Because they'd be most vulnerable to ambush when they're between cities, where there's no one to report back what happened to them....
Absolutely all interaction occurs at the POI level - but the scale allows for exactly what you're describing. Some areas are densely populated with towns, villages, and cities so at best you'll be able to lure someone out to a village - but the more remote areas have plenty of vacant POIs consisting of hills, rough crossings, forests, and ruins where you can unleash your powers with little fear of discovery. This element of map construction is part of the reason I love hand-crafted maps over dynamic.
I'll upload the Backer videos to Youtube and pass the link over. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ6I_foR1WE&feature=youtu.be)
You can edit Hero portraits via the editor if you'd like, but I currently don't have an option to set them mid-game. I'll put it on the list for the Beta testers to consider, it wouldn't be difficult to add. Your Power (the Orbs) recharges slowly over time, but certain actions (such as sacrifices) will fill them up significantly faster.
In the most recent video the prophet overthrew the mason guild and had an option to make himself the new leader. If he had done that and then proceeded to spend all his time in a faraway land excavating a ruin (with no contact with guildmembers), would his influence and power over that guild slowly decay? I mean, any leader who just ups and disappears can't expect to show up years later and have everyone instantly obeying him like nothing had happened.
Some kind of influence decay mechanic would give players an interesting dilemma whenever they have the chance to have an agent take on a title or position; is taking this position worth having my agent being partly tied down to this area or is it better to keep my agent free to be sent to where he is most needed?
Or maybe there can be a usurper mechanic where your agent's influence does not change but if your agent has been out of contact with his cabal/guild/position for too long then a lower ranking member will attempt to take his position and influence in one go. The amount of time you could be away safely could depend on your agent's leadership stat (with higher leadership allowing you to remain away for a longer time).
Our ORIGINAL major design was using "corruption" as a currency for everything, and it decayed over time to represent exactly what you were saying. Many of the options you had to make were either a "burst" of corruption vs "corruption over time" - but we found that global corruption decay created a mechanic where you put an agent somewhere and NEVER moved him. We wanted to emphasize strategic response to actions around the map, so we altered corruption to be static influence, and other permanent effects will simply create quests to defeat themselves when you use them.
Thematically you can consider it that the Agent isn't simply taking control, he is putting in place the mechanisms for domination over the guild - fear or wealth used to secure his reign over the Guild. However, if you do leave for a long time it is much more likely that a Hero will come along and restore the guild to its proper place (or destroy it) - which is the much more compelling threat we replaced influence decay with. (I see in your last sentence you proposed a similar solution, this is what our testing determined to be the most interesting and strategic solution)
I think Donations picked up for two reasons - we got Staff Picked which is apparently a big deal for a kickstarter and we also cross-promoted with Star Traders 2, which we felt comfortable endorsing because their other games are pretty great.
Post by: nenjin on September 30, 2014, 03:50:55 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 30, 2014, 04:29:00 pm
Thanks for the video repost.
Your welcome, based on some feedback I'm going to append an intro to our next Dev Video showing how to actually make your own Event. While I'm digging around, let me know if there's any particular aspect of Events or Politics you guys want to see in action.
Post by: Jalak on September 30, 2014, 08:06:14 pm
Post by: thepodger on September 30, 2014, 08:53:35 pm
Post by: ventuswings on September 30, 2014, 09:22:26 pm
Some questions, around when do you expect copy of the game to become available for the beta testers? Will the demo be available to select few, and what restrictions do you expect it to have? I expect there is some kind of non-disclosure agreement before the product reaches satisfactory state - if so, will permission for LP given around Early Access or so?
I must say I am very impressed with your marketing so far.
Post by: RebelZhouYuWu on September 30, 2014, 10:19:43 pm
Not sure if people enjoy hearing me talk on the Dev Logs or they'd rather get more teaser type videos. Here I know you guys like the information, but in general the Dev Logs see very little viewership.
I tend to like the Dev Logs over the teaser videos like the one you just released.
Post by: nenjin on September 30, 2014, 10:37:24 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on September 30, 2014, 10:53:11 pm
The Demo will be a global release, still strategizing with my partner on what exactly should be included given how behind schedule on it we are (Kickstarter really does end your development). We absolutely do not want the Demo to impede on Beta testers getting access so we will act accordingly.
Yep, Paypal is now available on our home page - all purchases there will be added to stretch tiers. http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com
I ALSO prefer Dev Logs and figure people would, but they get so few hits I figured no one really cared.
We are running a "thanks everyone" contest on our reddit page (http://www.reddit.com/r/thatwhichsleeps/), feel free to go post a proposed event and vote on the one you like the best. I'm going to make a video of me adding it to the game through the mod tools, and then hopefully finding it in a playthrough. If you don't use reddit because you hate it (which is a common enough opinion) you can post it here with "POST FOR ME" at the top and I'll go post it on your behalf.
Post by: Jalak on October 01, 2014, 12:05:20 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 01, 2014, 02:58:07 am
A Hero Shall Be Born
Your agent has stumbled upon a local prophecy speaking of the coming of a great hero. According to the legend, he will be born in a rural village when old evil awakens, underneath a red star and a burning tree. While spending time in a local village, the agent one night sees an old oak catch flame from a torch. The fire makes the stars seem red. From a hut nearby come the cries of a woman giving birth....
Options:
1) Great hero you say? They forgot to specify hero for whom. The kid will make a great new agent for me! (A high chance that the agent nabs the kid. Some time later you get a further event on how to educate him/her. Long time later you get an exceptional agent. Added alternative outcome - the woman gave birth to twins. The agent got the first kid, but the second, born a minute later, becomes the hero of legend and the nemesis of his/her evil twin. This same alternative applies to the other options below including kidnapping.)
2) I hate heroes and prophecies! Kill them! KILL THEM ALL! (A high chance of creating infamy and interest etc, the agent kills everyone in the village and leaves. A high chance that a hero comes to investigate the ruins and find a child miraculously alive in the ruins. He then trains this child to become a great hero...)
3) Mmm, I know just the people in need of a great hero... (A high chance that the agent nabs the kid, then takes him to faction X of your choosing. A long time later that faction then gets a great new hero.)
4) This is one of those self-fulfilling prophecies, isn't it? Where I destroy the village and the kid vows vengeage? Just leave them be. (Nothing happens. A low chance that a long time later a great new hero arises.)
5) A hero-to-be sounds like an excellent ritual sacrifice. (A high chance that the agent nabs the kid and he is sacrificed in an Evil Ritual for the purpose of Y. Don't know enough about the magic to give a direct suggestion.)
Post by: Jalak on October 01, 2014, 03:45:51 am
Would such a thing be planned if this stretch goal be achieved.
Post by: Vgray on October 01, 2014, 04:00:28 am
Post by: Jalak on October 01, 2014, 06:39:00 am
A way to make the consequences more immediate would be that the agent, by chance, sees a young peasant go through some seemingly random events that coincide perfectly with some prophesy, and you have the option to immediately kidnap said peasant (or manipulate them into going with the agent, either way).
If you manage to bring agent with peasant (represented by a newly generated hero) in tow to the great seal, you corrupt them and get another agent, with the resistance to this being the rescue-quest created when you capture someone normally. Ignoring the "prophesy" entirely could either have nothing happen or the hero spawn anyway, but maybe not as "committed" to stopping evil then he/she would have been if kidnapped and then rescued.
By the way, do the agents you gain have goals and ambitions of their own that give them bonuses if they are completed? Not game-changing powers or things that threaten the agent into trying to leave your service (one way or the other), but smaller things that are a nice boost if you exert a bit of pressure in the right places?
For example: the Guildmaster gains a small bonus to infiltrate and command (or whatever those two stats are called) if you have at least twenty gold in your resource pools.
Also, how much information are we given on how to recruit more agents? While I imagine those four initial agents you mentioned for recruitment would be made obvious from the start, how much information would we have in gaining the more complex agents later?
Post by: ventuswings on October 01, 2014, 08:29:21 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 01, 2014, 09:33:01 am
You will have 100% information on how to recruit the agents, if you mouse-over you will see the "How to Recruit" part at the bottom.
Cities respond to starvation by first cutting rations, almost all the time, which lowers order and may cause rioting. The AI will act depending on its personality, maybe trading (if the caravan makes it) or trying to raid a neighbor for some grain. Despotic rulers will absolutely concentrate resources in the capital, as will many other rulers as well. Nations can weather a drought or famine fairly well with the amount of options, it becomes interesting when you trouble them with another problem at the same time (threat of invasion, civil unrest, undead rising).
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 01, 2014, 09:33:52 am
Post by: Parsely on October 01, 2014, 10:03:01 am
Post by: ERICdb on October 01, 2014, 11:58:53 am
I'm wondering how much of the effect the hype has in Game Dev Tycoon is actually true... But I can't avoid it.
Post by: ventuswings on October 01, 2014, 09:05:12 pm
Quote
Also feel free to go PIE IN THE SKY as far as what happens, part of the purpose of this exercise is so that I can take whatever idea gets voted up and then translate it into what is feasible in the game
I hope you do the balance/quality adjustment as well, to account for the fact that we in fact have no experience with the game. For example, one of the events I found interesting - The Grand Competition - occurs 10 turns (!) after the "preparation" announcement, which if my understanding is correct is significant length of hiatus. And some events proposed seem to require no pre-requisite and little investment but have significant rewards, though I also am talking blind here since I am equally clueless about "average" overall reward as well. Still, there are lot of good ideas and I'm sure you can do well with them!
Post by: Lapoleon on October 02, 2014, 12:36:01 am
Good to know that somebody likes my event :) I thought 10 turns was a bit much as well, but I wanted heroes and champions from neighbouring countries to join as well and there were about 7 "steps" between the capital of Cylaria and the Arden protectorate and more between other major capitals. I don't know if heroes move more than one step per turn, but since all actual numbers are more or less a placeholder anyway this seemed reasonable.QuoteAlso feel free to go PIE IN THE SKY as far as what happens, part of the purpose of this exercise is so that I can take whatever idea gets voted up and then translate it into what is feasible in the game
I hope you do the balance/quality adjustment as well, to account for the fact that we in fact have no experience with the game. For example, one of the events I found interesting - The Grand Competition - occurs 10 turns (!) after the "preparation" announcement, which if my understanding is correct is significant length of hiatus.
Post by: Jalak on October 02, 2014, 04:21:29 am
By the way, can a government regress into a more primitive state?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 08:54:34 am
The Orcs can absolutely take territory into their kingdom, though the burned down villages offer little use to them. Alternatively you can simply burn them to the ground. People flee seized POIs as refugees, heading to nearby nations (and of course causing problems) - Heroes who are loyal to that nation will probably gain the desire for vengeance against the orc kingdom which they will follow up with based on their archetype.
We do not have government's regressing to primitive states, just to anarchistic states of chaos.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 02, 2014, 09:17:19 am
Post by: sjm9876 on October 02, 2014, 09:38:20 am
The Grand competition
A royal Wedding
Second chances
In that order of preference
Post by: ERICdb on October 02, 2014, 12:19:32 pm
Hey KDG, you mentioned there was going to be a Dev Log on Wednesday. It's Thursday today and my computer can only survive so many hits on the F5 button so is there any info on when we can expect the new log?
To say Wednesday is to use a very relative measure of time. Wednesday here in Europe, in Japan, in West-Coast America, in the Moon? Because It's common knowledge that KDG has a regular base in the Moon, and some outposts in Mars and Venus. We're definitely going to hear something about the video in a logical time-frame, say... 2000 years. And yes, all those bases have minions that respond to questions in the name of KDG. It's the only plausible idea. Also, don't ask me why those minions can't do videos, because they are simply unable. You have to be an Old One to do one.
Aside from that I'm too one of those that keep refreshing screens to see if there's even a new pixel.
Questions here: Can I suppose we'll be able to chose the language in the beta so that people like me can check if the translations and the tool-tips are correct? Sometimes even high-budget games have some funny translations, and I'd want to spot them. :D On the other side, will the demo also have the Spanish translation?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 12:51:35 pm
We're thinking of a similar concept for the Military DevLog, but we're still figuring out the specifics.
Sorry about the confusion - we're pretty hectic over here but I do want to make sure I keep communicating expectations properly. Based on how well the KS is going we've begun approaching artists for the graphical overhaul so we can stay on track for our Beta release, and we've had a lot of interest from industry contacts. Trust me when I say that all of these distractions are actually looking really positive, and there's been some developments that will really benefit the game in the long run.
I do wish I had Video Editing minions, that would be amazing - or really any minions at this point. Marketing drives me nuts, but it's looking like this effort is paying off.
I doubt we'll have Spanish in the demo, we had two professionals working on the core strings to the game which is complete but we won't be re-engaging for the Scenario until it's all locked in (which would be for the beta). However, the beta will absolutely let you switch languages and we will definitely put out a Spanish language demo once the scenario is finalized in Spanish.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 01:10:16 pm
I want to state again that this is possible because the map itself is treated as a Sprite Background - game mechanics have no dependency on the map and it is simply a matter of aesthetics. Don't be discouraged if it ends up we cannot replace the maps, the game will still have all the same features and strategic depth.
Post by: ERICdb on October 02, 2014, 02:52:14 pm
Also we THINK that we're going to be able to tackle the map overhaul based on current KS conservative projections. What we'd like to do is really get you guys involved in the samples we're going to start collecting. I'll be posting more information in the coming weeks, if you're in the Beta Tester tier you'll be getting more specifics and a link to our scenario viewer build once the KS ends but if not you'll still be getting updates here on the possibilities we've discovered that work within our budget and time constraints.
I want to state again that this is possible because the map itself is treated as a Sprite Background - game mechanics have no dependency on the map and it is simply a matter of aesthetics. Don't be discouraged if it ends up we cannot replace the maps, the game will still have all the same features and strategic depth.
I could live with the current maps, but any improvement is obviously welcomed. And of course if you do give that possibility to beta/higher than beta bakers they will be pleased.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 02, 2014, 05:45:45 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 06:13:12 pm
I know you're probably tired of hearing it, but what's our ETA on the demo? Plx man plx.
No ETA yet - I know it's frustrating. We're actually talking about making a quick build that is just the Death God with boosted power, something that is immediately engaging for the press to play.
Post by: rylen on October 02, 2014, 07:35:09 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 07:38:09 pm
Would he still be overpowered? I recall ya'll worrying about that?
Yeah, absurdly so - the idea is to just let the player get a feel for the power dynamics, unbalanced as they are it's pretty hard to "lose"
The main reason at this point is that we are overworked right now, so it would be pretty quick to just turn him back on, play to a midway point, lock in that point as a scenario and load that for it.
Post by: ventuswings on October 02, 2014, 08:29:27 pm
My concern is that Death God may be so powerful that the way game mechanic plays out (when and how to use these events) becomes different enough to become inaccurate representation of the actual game, such as failure to appeal the need to play stealthy or cautious.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 02, 2014, 09:18:41 pm
If you do have to go down that route, please make it clear that the demo uses the "very easy difficulty" God. While concern that press won't have enough time to learn nuances of the game are understandable, it is also going to be first real representation of the gameplay uninformed gamers will have - especially so since the demo is going to be public.
My concern is that Death God may be so powerful that the way game mechanic plays out (when and how to use these events) becomes different enough to become inaccurate representation of the actual game, such as failure to appeal the need to play stealthy or cautious.
This is definitely a valid point, we've actually been advised by several people in the industry to not release a demo at all. Conversation ongoing at this point - but our concern is given that we've gotten almost nothing done on the demo at this point even if we optimistically get to it the start of next week we had estimated two weeks to get it polished with the recent tester results which puts us after KS ends and also means I would be able to produce absolutely no more updates.
Complications and annoyances - but at least KS has gone well, which is what led to the lack of development time.
Post by: Xantalos on October 02, 2014, 10:58:08 pm
Post by: Mithras on October 03, 2014, 05:12:47 am
That said I am in favour of a one old one demo, possibly one that has already played through. (it depends, does starting on a scenario that has already been played through require the player to know more or less information than just starting one yourself? I suspect that a scenario that hasn't been altered will at least give the player all the information they need over time, while a scenario half played may have vital information about past actions permanently hidden from the player) If you cannot display a demo that isn't representative of the game you want to make, I'm sad to say the best option is to forego it for now. However, polish may not be that big an issue I'm not sure about the opinion of lets players, but I suspect most people who would back a kickstarter (or up their pledge) aren't looking for a smooth game from a demo this early on, they want to experience what they can do and how to do it, and gauge whether the experience might be fun.
Post by: ERICdb on October 03, 2014, 06:01:31 am
While a good demo would be a strong boost to the kickstarter a poor one would damage it.
Yeah, demos are double edge swords, and the effort to make one could well be too high for the possible benefits. I think that a simple Let's play and more contests like the current one could suffice and give you the time you need to manage the marketing.
With that in mind, why not a demo for the bakers later on, after the KK? So that people has a way to entertain themselves until the beta or the release.
Post by: Broken on October 03, 2014, 04:23:46 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 03, 2014, 04:35:19 pm
Post by: thepodger on October 03, 2014, 06:57:26 pm
After the Confederate Express debacle I've absolutely sworn not to jump in to a KS without a public prototype.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 03, 2014, 08:19:55 pm
Are you planning to get the demo out before the KS shuts down? If not, will you keep taking paypal latecomers through the site?
After the Confederate Express debacle I've absolutely sworn not to jump in to a KS without a public prototype.
I don't blame you - those guys were some pretty polished scammers. Not even just the scams but also some well-intentioned but incompetent teams that just show no progress after years, we backed some games back in 2012 that post one update a year showing screenshots you could make in a weekend. We've tried to show off tons of Gameplay to build public trust but the demo issue has been a constant concern re: development time. Kickstarter has gone great, lots of industry people have been in touch with us, and we haven't been able to circle back to it. I cannot say with certainty that it will be out before the close of KS, and every day that I can't say it than it becomes more likely that it won't.
We'll definitely keep paypal open for pre-orders up at least until all the Beta Testers are full engaged in the process.
Post by: thepodger on October 03, 2014, 08:31:22 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 03, 2014, 08:33:50 pm
Well, in your case its more about not immediately breaking an oath than about lack of trust.
Having often been in the same situation I respect that.
Post by: Jalak on October 04, 2014, 02:28:58 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 04, 2014, 09:08:39 am
So how's the Steam Greenlight looking, then? What are your plans for the early access there, if you're planning on going on that route at all?
35% of the way to the top 100 - which is about average for a succesful kickstarter. If we get to 50% by the end of the KS then we're looking really good.
We do plan to do Early Access, we'll launch on Early Access when the Beta testers think it's ready.
Post by: hops on October 04, 2014, 09:20:49 am
Post by: SharpKris on October 04, 2014, 10:23:56 am
Post by: Denim on October 04, 2014, 11:21:25 am
Can rival old ones recruit agents too?
Post by: lijacote on October 04, 2014, 11:29:20 am
That event with the herun demon shows that ancient power can be transferred between old ones. Does this mean that I can send an agent to camp out on the seal of a rival old one and use a ritual to siphon away their power and augment my own? Could you even use this as a legitimate path to victory, a sort of dark mirror to the ascension path where you spend most of your time researching and hunting down rivals?That sounds way cool. If it's not a general mechanic of its own, it could be an event. A barrow, seal, or other place of internment / imprisonment is discovered or learned of (and then discovered through research and adventuring) and then possibly either destroyed or parasitically taken advantage of. Or maybe the creature within could be enslaved, or even freed as an agent... so cool. So promising. So potential.
Post by: rylen on October 04, 2014, 12:44:48 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 04, 2014, 01:53:03 pm
this might have been asked before and i'm sorry for the hassle if it was but, how modable will the game be? in terms of map making and unit customization
100% moddable - everything you see the scenarios presented were build with the in-game editor. We're releasing a video showing off some of the mod capabilities in the next couple of days.
That event with the herun demon shows that ancient power can be transferred between old ones. Does this mean that I can send an agent to camp out on the seal of a rival old one and use a ritual to siphon away their power and augment my own? Could you even use this as a legitimate path to victory, a sort of dark mirror to the ascension path where you spend most of your time researching and hunting down rivals?
Can rival old ones recruit agents too?
This is a planned addition with the Rival Old Ones - just like Religions added in the element of doing battle for divine aspects we wanted the Old Ones to have a contest of their own. However, while draining the heavens invokes the wraths of the gods, battling with Old Ones will likely alert the world to your presence. It is more a case of brinkmanship with the AI - how far can you push them (or they you) before the war becomes overt.
There is no plan for it to be a victory condition, but a successful covert assimilation of a rival peer will make defeating the Chosen One significantly easier. On the other hand, if the Chosen One and his cohorts manage to defeat one of you rivals - surely this will benefit them somehow....
So, is the contest thing over? What won?
Event Chain: Second Chances was the winner - an absolutely solid entry and one I'm happy to see created because it rolls into Rival Old Ones. Most of the entries were very well thought out, and I'm hoping that those people pledged to create their own event because some of them would be fun to create unique effects for.
Working on the video when I'm done with the dev work I'm doing, ETA 1-2 days on the Video.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2014, 02:16:09 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 04, 2014, 03:20:15 pm
I assume all this stuff will be optional? I kind of like the idea of lesser beings but a full-on Old One that's your peer in power doesn't really sound like something I want to play with. I'm the Dark Lord, not a Dark Lord.
All of the stretch goals are optional inclusions to the game.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 05, 2014, 06:58:58 am
With 17 days to go still, procedural generation becomes a very real possibility!
(I'm hoping we get every stretch goal and then some, then you can spend the extra money on more art/music which is always nice to have and doesn't make you any extra work.)
Post by: ERICdb on October 05, 2014, 08:26:06 am
Someone just backed 1000$. This puts us 60$ short of rival old ones, i think its a safe bet to say we'll hit it in a hour or so.
With 17 days to go still, procedural generation becomes a very real possibility!
(I'm hoping we get every stretch goal and then some, then you can spend the extra money on more art/music which is always nice to have and doesn't make you any extra work.)
Yeah, I saw it too and it surprised me. That's a really good thing since at this hour usually there are like 50 bakers whereas today there's only 14.
One thing I'm delighted of aside from the fact that each pledge approximates us to the next stretch goal is that the big pledges actually give us more replayability. As of now, we'll have 17 new events (+ the contest one), 9 new guilds/companies/royal families and 1 new agent. :)
I'm wondering, though, where will those new guilds or royal families be placed? Will the current Scenarios have to be expanded or does this mean that sometimes some will appear and sometimes others won't?
Post by: Shadowgandor on October 05, 2014, 09:38:04 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 12:37:15 pm
First of all, congratulations Devs for reaching Rival Old Ones!Someone just backed 1000$. This puts us 60$ short of rival old ones, i think its a safe bet to say we'll hit it in a hour or so.
With 17 days to go still, procedural generation becomes a very real possibility!
(I'm hoping we get every stretch goal and then some, then you can spend the extra money on more art/music which is always nice to have and doesn't make you any extra work.)
Yeah, I saw it too and it surprised me. That's a really good thing since at this hour usually there are like 50 bakers whereas today there's only 14.
One thing I'm delighted of aside from the fact that each pledge approximates us to the next stretch goal is that the big pledges actually give us more replayability. As of now, we'll have 17 new events (+ the contest one), 9 new guilds/companies/royal families and 1 new agent. :)
I'm wondering, though, where will those new guilds or royal families be placed? Will the current Scenarios have to be expanded or does this mean that sometimes some will appear and sometimes others won't?
1k Backer is great, I love it because it really adds to the game with a new Agent.
The events are available in each playthrough, though depending on how esoteric they are you may not have a chance to see them all the time. Guilds and Families is more tricky - they will each appear in one of the main scenarios as a major element, but will also be able to dynamically spawn either in a scenario or (if we reach it) through Procedural Generation.
I will be ecstatic if we reach our last stretch goal, at that point the Map can be overhauled and that's really the final major element to bring the aesthetic together. If we're still going strong after that I would probably begin a public debate amongst the backers about which races to add - our plan prior was to settle that with the Beta Testers and Modders but at this point our expected 4 additional races is probably going to be closer to 6 or 7.
Also congratulations on becoming a Kickstarter Staff Pick! This is going awesomely well :D
Thanks! Every dollar going in is making this game better and better.
Post by: Romanul on October 05, 2014, 01:40:29 pm
Quote
(I'm hoping we get every stretch goal and then some, then you can spend the extra money on more art/music which is always nice to have and doesn't make you any extra work.)
I don't know about that. The game is good as far as graphics are concerned. They could just save the money, after all it's better to have some cash in case expenses go out of hand. Or they could add more content to the game. As said above adding races is a good choice or making nations more complex (economy, trade etc).
Quote
Yeah, I saw it too and it surprised me. That's a really good thing since at this hour usually there are like 50 bakers whereas today there's only 14.
Yeah, i think the funding will start to slow quite a lot.
Quote
One thing I'm delighted of aside from the fact that each pledge approximates us to the next stretch goal is that the big pledges actually give us more replayability. As of now, we'll have 17 new events (+ the contest one), 9 new guilds/companies/royal families and 1 new agent. :)
That's one more reason that I like in-game backer rewards as opposed to physical ones. Not only that you save money, which the game critically needs, but we all get to enjoy the content added to game.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 05, 2014, 02:04:22 pm
I don't know about that. The game is good as far as graphics are concerned. They could just save the money, after all it's better to have some cash in case expenses go out of hand. Or they could add more content to the game. As said above adding races is a good choice or making nations more complex (economy, trade etc).
Well i said that they could spend it on art/music because iirc KDG said something like they'd only consider, for now, stretch goals for more art after procedural generation because they would not delay the game further.
Ah, found the quote "After 53k? The only thing I would consider adding is more art tiers, because they would involve no work on our end simply contracting. I would love to add Voiceovers to the Agents and Heroes but there's just so much involved in that process, the budget isn't even the major constraint. "
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2014, 02:14:36 pm
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 05, 2014, 02:14:53 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 05, 2014, 02:23:00 pm
king any chance of a ETA on the demo ? :PThe last page (50 post/page) has quite a few mentions of that. Basically:
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
No ETA yet - I know it's frustrating.
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
I cannot say with certainty that it will be out before the close of KS, and every day that I can't say it than it becomes more likely that it won't.
I don't think things have changed enough in the last two days to warrant much more than that.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 02:29:24 pm
king any chance of a ETA on the demo ? :P
The current ETA is just a giant sad-face, I expected things to slow down second and third weeks but they're just getting more intense (which is of course also a great thing). We should be receiving two big news bumps this week which make Procedural a real possibility.
I think better art and sound is what has the potential to draw in people that aren't just hardcore strategy gamers...and make TWS a run away hit.
Yep, not only is this our thought but we have been in contact with a lot of interested and very helpful industry people who have launched hugely successful games. They echo what you are saying - that if we just get the graphics to the next level this could be a massive hit. It was never our intention to reach that far, we mostly wanted to make an in-depth strategy/simulation that let you feel like you were a stereotypical manipulative evil power - but the more successful the game is the deeper we can delve into the simulation so we certainly aren't adverse to the game reaching that larger market.
We're debating whether or not to put in additional stretch goals, if we do they will most likely be asset-related (our Programming Dev-hours are essentially all spoken for at this point). Before we made any kind of decision on that we would return to the community to see what interests people the most, be it VO, more races, an underworld map, or something else.
Post by: sjm9876 on October 05, 2014, 02:34:40 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 02:42:44 pm
Tbh, for additional stretch goals I'd like to see more agent types and AI types than anything else. Maybe more quests that can pop up, or random events. Shouldn't be too hard given all you've said on modding, but still adds a lot to the game.
An agent pack might be feasible - but we try to be very unique with the agents mechanics (adding something new to the engine) so they actually require development.
AI is probably out of the question given the development time required, but I don't think you'll be disappointed in the variety of AI we are now delivering. With Rival Old Ones, Gods and Religions, and Endless Simulation we have even more variety to the objectives that the AI pursues and the methods they follow.
We could do Quests and Random events, but to be honest we are constantly adding new ones anyway - we allocate time in our daily schedule so that every day we are adding at least one new Event and one new Quest. It would feel disingenuous to add it as a stretch goal unless we were pledging to add assets or bring on a new content creator.
Post by: Romanul on October 05, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
It might be a bit premature to talk about other stretch goals, there's still a lot of ground to cover until we reach procedural generation. However, it's still a lot of fun to do so. I don't care so much about graphics. I saw above the opinion of the experts but that's still the way I feel. I would like to know more about the game features that were scraped during development because of money constraints etc. So far religion and gods were a pretty good idea to say the least. Maybe you had a few other ideas that didn't make it and that are worth developing.
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2014, 03:17:59 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 05, 2014, 03:21:19 pm
Post by: SharpKris on October 05, 2014, 03:29:54 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 03:32:10 pm
As far I'm concerned we could do without a demo. I don't see the need to spend the resources on it since the game has been successfully funded and that it will be available through early access on Steam . Again, that just my opinion.
It might be a bit premature to talk about other stretch goals, there's still a lot of ground to cover until we reach procedural generation. However, it's still a lot of fun to do so. I don't care so much about graphics. I saw above the opinion of the experts but that's still the way I feel. I would like to know more about the game features that were scraped during development because of money constraints etc. So far religion and gods were a pretty good idea to say the least. Maybe you had a few other ideas that didn't make it and that are worth developing.
Yep, I completely agree with every point you make.
It's really hard to talk about what was lost in the game because of the prototyping stage, where the essence of the game shifted a lot before coming into final focus as That Which Sleeps. If we ignore the prototyping stage and set the marker at about a year and two months ago, the first thing to go was Multiplayer - but that was less a feature and more a design choice that let us go into so much more simulation detail than if we tried to make the game support multiple players.
Cities originally had a lot more detail then they have now, we were going to have a very simple district system that let you slowly corrupt areas of the city, wage guild and thief wars, and be able to secure a district as your stronghold. Heroes would have to retake districts from you, slowly fighting for control. It was actually a very fun system and pretty lightweight for the depth that was offered, but the supporting elements to really actualize it would have cost far too much - and the asset requirement was fairly high.
The next thing to go was the Agents playing out their unique desires - originally you had agents similar to units like in a normal Civ game (recruit multiple peddler types) and then you could bring into being some of your Forsaken (that term was obviously meant to change), who were extremely powerful and could perform Schemes that affected multiple POIs, but required support to do so. More critically, these Forsaken may or may not do exactly what you told them to - they might fight against eachother, gather support for themselves, or seek ancient artifacts. You would have to control them through punishment or enticement to keep them in line. We somewhat regain this functionality with the Lesser Evils.
We then took a critical look at how we were building out influence and corruption - this was back when we had corruption as a currency for all actions. At this stage we had the entire political system charted out per government, similar (though not as complex and certainly not as realized at this point) to Crusader Kings. We went through the situations an Agent would ideally find himself in, and realized that without really developing these minor family members and political figures it didn't make sense to have them, as an Agent operates at a much higher level of political intrigue. There are remnants of this in the advisers and immediate family of the royal family you will encounter, most notably with the Barons of a Feudal system.
After that we lost Religions, for reasons I've gone over in depth. Very excited to have it return.
The underworld was taken out, we had a very simple extra map similar to Master of Magic, but it was meant to represent the caverns and people that lived underground. The benefit of taming it was that you could move your forces quickly between POIs, under the water, and circumventing armies. It ended up not entirely making sense, would have required even more graphics for the map, and at the time we didn't think we'd be supporting underworld races (though we have since implemented most of them).
We had animated combat on the map itself, so instead of the battle screen you see here the units actually fought. It took too long, and the animation requirement actually restricted our ability to diversify heroes - so that was removed and replaced with the current, much faster, battle system.
There's doubtless more but these are some of the larger ones off the top of my head.
Post by: rylen on October 05, 2014, 03:35:47 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 03:37:35 pm
My brain knows no demo might be for the best but my heart has been itching for a demo since the beginning of august. It's tough!
Haha, don't worry - "no demo" if we go that route will still result in a demo, I'd have to talk scheduling but we'd either release it right after the Scenario Viewer going out to the Beta Testers (1 week after KS ends) or we'd just release the Beta Tester release (2 months after KS ends) slimmed down to a demo.
The gain to be had is we don't back to the feature lock that we put in... almost a month ago? More than a month ago? Things have gotten a little messy since the KS started. So we ignore that, push out fresh release based on what was fixed and move ahead to the Beta Release. It means the Beta Release is accelerated but it costs us the demo.
On the other hand we fix everything after the feature lock, we release a demo ASAP - it costs us some time in regards to the Beta Release but gains us exposure. However, what we're hearing from people is that demo exposure is irrelevant in the final calculations and it's best to just focus on iterating with your team until release - which makes us think tighter integration of the Beta Tier team with us is probably the best path.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 03:40:34 pm
While you are talking about art assets, how distinct are the heroes and can we visually follow them through their careers? How different will two heroes with the same class be?
Classes share portraits, which creates some confusion - but we do want interchangeable components on the Map Asset for heroes, so you should be able to see at a glance that they are different. This is NOT locked down however as we will be moving into Map Asset art direction with the Beta Tester team right after KS - it may be that a "higher quality" art per Class is more desirable then a lower quality but easier to see at a glance difference.
Even if the art does not differentiate on the Map, a mouseover will tell you what you need to know - and additional icons such as the flag of the Adventuring Group or their current cause may help. You can also check the action history of a Hero (if you have infiltration) which helps put the pieces together.
EDIT: Just a quick edit, currently interchangeable components are the way they game is programmed - so this is currently supported in the game.
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2014, 03:43:38 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/eztmBks.jpg)
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 03:50:53 pm
I've articulated about how I'm feeling about playing games before they're done, in .jpg
(http://i.imgur.com/eztmBks.jpg)
Yeah, I just treat Early Access as preordering - I've bought several games on Early Access just to support it but then I almost always wait until it's fully released. Bought Clockwork Empires just the other day but not going to touch it until it hits full release, that and I only let myself play a game after reaching a significant development milestone.
Post by: Romanul on October 05, 2014, 03:51:04 pm
Wow, that was a really complex game you had in mind. I'm impressed. On the bright side, the only thing I don't mind gone is the multilayer.
As a Crusader Kings fan, I am most impressed with political system charted per government. That would have been interesting to have even only if its for the fun factor. In the end evil doesn't necessary need to be efficient, he can corrupt lesser being just because of envy etc.
One more aspect that I've being meaning to ask you about. If I understand correctly donations through your site count to the KS goals. How are they going?
Also, would it help you from a cost perspective to donate thorough your site rather KS?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 04:03:14 pm
@KingDinosaurGames:
Wow, that was a really complex game you had in mind. I'm impressed. On the bright side, the only thing I don't mind gone is the multilayer.
As a Crusader Kings fan, I am most impressed with political system charted per government. That would have been interesting to have even only if its for the fun factor. In the end evil doesn't necessary need to be efficient, he can corrupt lesser being just because of envy etc.
One more aspect that I've being meaning to ask you about. If I understand correctly donations through your site count to the KS goals. How are they going?
Also, would it help you from a cost perspective to donate thorough your site rather KS?
Well we accomplish a lot of what we wanted with the different government types by creating "Actions per Government Type", where actions are available to a Leader based on his government type, personality type, ability, and culture. We did lose the behind-the-scenes politicking but it didn't seem to make sense in a game of this scale, retaining it only at the highest level.
I'd have to check with Joe but I believe last time I checked it was <500. I'd leave it up to you as far as backing is concerned, whatever you are more comfortable with. We lose something like 7% through KS and 3% through the site I believe, and for tax purposes they're considered the same. KS, while taking a higher percentage, has the intangible benefit of being a public contribution.
Post by: Vordrak on October 05, 2014, 04:32:08 pm
Please? Need early access ...
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 05, 2014, 04:43:29 pm
I love this game. I put down my $50 and I would like to see a demo / early access build. I might even write a preview on my blog.
Please? Need early access ...
At $50 you are in the Beta Tier, which is absolutely happening - we're just talking about an even earlier preview build in the form of a demo.
Post by: Vordrak on October 05, 2014, 05:21:05 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 06, 2014, 02:07:36 am
So how large are the military armies supposed to be? Are they represented by an abstract "health bar" for each unit or do we see an actual number of how many men are in each regiment? Are armies made from the population of where they are spawned, and how do these cities react to a mass amount of people being taken from their cities this way and possibly killed, if they can react to it at all? How much information does each army give (assuming max-infiltration or control) on its individual regiments (like which culture they belong, which city they spawned from, etc)?
Post by: Xantalos on October 06, 2014, 03:25:52 am
Is there a log kept during the game of what the various entities are doing? Hero X went to POI Y on turn Z or something like that? Because if that were the case (or gets added on or whatever) then that could really assist people in doing interesting writeups of their game, or writing a run through of their game from the Chosen One's perspective or something.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 06, 2014, 03:42:26 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on October 06, 2014, 03:53:36 am
Cities originally had a lot more detail then they have now, we were going to have a very simple district system that let you slowly corrupt areas of the city, wage guild and thief wars, and be able to secure a district as your stronghold. Heroes would have to retake districts from you, slowly fighting for control. It was actually a very fun system and pretty lightweight for the depth that was offered, but the supporting elements to really actualize it would have cost far too much - and the asset requirement was fairly high.
Any chance of this making its way back in ? this sounds amazing!
Post by: Lapoleon on October 06, 2014, 04:01:27 am
I just thought of something that I think would add to the stories generated by the game quite a bit, if it isn't in there already.
Is there a log kept during the game of what the various entities are doing? Hero X went to POI Y on turn Z or something like that? Because if that were the case (or gets added on or whatever) then that could really assist people in doing interesting writeups of their game, or writing a run through of their game from the Chosen One's perspective or something.
This sounds like a really cool idea. It would be really cool to see what the world was actually up to during the game and it could also help a lot with looking for bugs and improving the AI during the Beta phase.
Post by: ventuswings on October 06, 2014, 07:49:41 am
Also, how is PayPal donations doing?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 06, 2014, 09:56:24 am
I know this is derailing the conversation from the kickstarter, but I have a bunch of questions about how the armies are represented:
So how large are the military armies supposed to be? Are they represented by an abstract "health bar" for each unit or do we see an actual number of how many men are in each regiment? Are armies made from the population of where they are spawned, and how do these cities react to a mass amount of people being taken from their cities this way and possibly killed, if they can react to it at all? How much information does each army give (assuming max-infiltration or control) on its individual regiments (like which culture they belong, which city they spawned from, etc)?
Armies can get pretty large, multiple tens of thousand, but generally are smaller then that. The way armies work is that the "base unit" which is unique for the government type acts as hit points, with each hit point being a soldier. So you may recruit 5,000 Levies from the feudal kingdom which are your base, but the actual tactics of combat come down to the smaller elite units which you choose to deploy or hold back as strategy dictates. So all of those levies are merely meant to hold the line while you properly utilize your Elite Cavalry or Heavy Infantry units.
Oh yes, POIs do not enjoy their people being drafted - it has an immediate effect on morale and security, and may also lower the yield of the farmlands - which is even more compounded by the fact that a mustered army consumes food. We don't show the POI Spawned from but you will see the culture on infiltration, as well as the other militarily relevant statistics.
I just thought of something that I think would add to the stories generated by the game quite a bit, if it isn't in there already.
Is there a log kept during the game of what the various entities are doing? Hero X went to POI Y on turn Z or something like that? Because if that were the case (or gets added on or whatever) then that could really assist people in doing interesting writeups of their game, or writing a run through of their game from the Chosen One's perspective or something.
Yep, you can see action histories on agents, heroes, armies, etc.
Cities originally had a lot more detail then they have now, we were going to have a very simple district system that let you slowly corrupt areas of the city, wage guild and thief wars, and be able to secure a district as your stronghold. Heroes would have to retake districts from you, slowly fighting for control. It was actually a very fun system and pretty lightweight for the depth that was offered, but the supporting elements to really actualize it would have cost far too much - and the asset requirement was fairly high.
Any chance of this making its way back in ? this sounds amazing!
haha, no chance at this point - it was pretty interesting but it was practically a game unto itself.
Will this game be USB portable? I use different computers frequently due to circumstances so it'll be useful to know if I can carry entire folder around without leaving artefacts on the host computer.
Also, how is PayPal donations doing?
We are compiling on Unity which is itself USB portable so you shouldn't have an issue, but I haven't tested this.
EDIT: I can get a full list of dependencies for you, as long as the computer satisfies these you can simply move the folder structure
Still <$500 on Paypal front
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2014, 04:31:29 pm
What about a hellraiser-looking demon with will-breaking abilities and corrupting abilities at very low will, and a scheme that lets him fully assume the form of a hero he's killed? I'm assuming people don't immediately learn about a hero's death if nobody saw it. He hunts down and murders a hero, takes his form, and as long as nobody knows the guy's dead he can infiltrate like that.
And his combat abilities are more along the lines of what we see the Tower doing in-game, fucking with people's heads, making them see relive traumatic events and see everyone they've killed, then warping them towards the dark side when their will is very low. But maybe that's more in a scheme's power level. Maybe this is really more along the lines of two separate heroes
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 06, 2014, 05:49:37 pm
Playing Shadow of Mordor and fighting The Tower of Sauron (http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140814122651/middleearthshadowofmordor7723/images/d/d5/MiddleearthShadowofMordor_The_Tower_Screenshot.jpg) got an agent in my brain.
What about a hellraiser-looking demon with will-breaking abilities and corrupting abilities at very low will, and a scheme that lets him fully assume the form of a hero he's killed? I'm assuming people don't immediately learn about a hero's death if nobody saw it. He hunts down and murders a hero, takes his form, and as long as nobody knows the guy's dead he can infiltrate like that.
And his combat abilities are more along the lines of what we see the Tower doing in-game, fucking with people's heads, making them see relive traumatic events and see everyone they've killed, then warping them towards the dark side when their will is very low. But maybe that's more in a scheme's power level. Maybe this is really more along the lines of two separate heroes
Oh man I really like that - it's also a lot of interesting programming work so it's even better. However we pretty much have all the Agent's spoken for at this point - this could be modded in but only through a callout so it would require actual coding.
I'll put this aside for when we do make more agents, pretty solid idea.
EDIT: The more I think of it the more I like this - and it actually could be supported without custom coding. We have a "trigger" clue that you can drop - so on the kill we trigger an event, the event allows you to choose to assume the hero if no heroes remained in the battle and the order of the POI is < X (to represent it being an isolated area - or maybe we ignore this, not sure). If you choose to it drops a clue tied to event Y, event Y triggers on the Hero who discloses it and he gets a modifier that will allow him to know your identity, and an imperative based on desire to spread the now deciphered clue so knowledge of who you are would spread as per the usual clue system. Meanwhile, your agent is changed into an Infiltrated Hero - which we could handle either by you temporarily losing control and letting him act as a Hero until you want to reactive him, or simply giving you a set bonus based on that hero's relationships.
Not as good as doing it custom coding, but it would work.
Post by: ventuswings on October 06, 2014, 08:39:11 pm
Also this mention of log makes me curious: is there option to generate external txt log for all events on the game (even ones you don't discover), so you can check them later to read about the events you had no idea took place in-game?
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2014, 08:47:57 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 06, 2014, 09:03:25 pm
That is fascinating Agent concept! Haven't played Shadow of Mordor, but one of the description reminds me of Doppelganger and that's a pretty awesome creature. In one story I read, Doppelganger is an apocalyptic horror that must be contained and killed no matter what the cost, because once released onto open society, it'll keep switching appearance, navigating itself to higher and higher echelons until it attains suitable power - such as that of the King - and wreck havoc.
Also this mention of log makes me curious: is there option to generate external txt log for all events on the game (even ones you don't discover), so you can check them later to read about the events you had no idea took place in-game?
I have a debug dump for this into JSON (previously XML) on error or by debug trigger, but no real good way to parse it for readability. Let me make an entry for the testers and we'll see what they say - considering it's the same structure as parsed by the Serializer class it wouldn't be too difficult to just add a simple "Scenario Recap" view in the editor screen somewhere - or to keep it in memory and pass to another screen on game end (optionally).
We also have doppelgangers as a way to infiltrate guilds, guards, and palaces - it gives you much greater leeway with their actions when an opportunity arises but requires significant arcana skill (currently not bound to a trait but we are debating doing that for balance).
Post by: ventuswings on October 06, 2014, 09:15:04 pm
The motivations of my tools are no concern to me. :P
Hmm, maybe instead of the Agent, introducing it as one of the Lesser Beings could be viable option as well (these can be 'somewhat' recruited as well, right?) and give developer more option to be creative code-wise. I can imagine such replicative abilities going out of control like God of Death though.
@ KingDinosaurGames:
Thanks for the reminder. I recall reading about Doppelgangers on one of the displayed events now. If so, keeping it simple like your proposal is probably the best way to introduce the ability, the Agent in question achieving "shape-shifting" differently to that of the Doppelgangers (like some kind of innate magic?). I hope that system will still allow Agent to hop person to person when convenient or useful, of course with significant risks.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 06, 2014, 10:04:16 pm
@ Cthulhu; before the new post:
The motivations of my tools are no concern to me. :P
Hmm, maybe instead of the Agent, introducing it as one of the Lesser Beings could be viable option as well (these can be 'somewhat' recruited as well, right?) and give developer more option to be creative code-wise. I can imagine such replicative abilities going out of control like God of Death though.
@ KingDinosaurGames:
Thanks for the reminder. I recall reading about Doppelgangers on one of the displayed events now. If so, keeping it simple like your proposal is probably the best way to introduce the ability, the Agent in question achieving "shape-shifting" differently to that of the Doppelgangers (like some kind of innate magic?). I hope that system will still allow Agent to hop person to person when convenient or useful, of course with significant risks.
The closest we have to this is a Ritual that requires a token from a Hero (or the Hero to be captured) and temporarily grants you that Hero's reputation benefits and drops misleading clues, as well as having a few other modifiers.
Post by: Capsicum on October 06, 2014, 11:21:22 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 12:20:05 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 07, 2014, 01:04:43 am
What's the word on post-release support, if any? DLC? I'm tempted to back this game, but I've been burned on Kickstarter a few times already and would hate to throw money at something that's going to die on the vine, so to speak.
We don't really have a solid commitment to expansion plans - what we have is a commitment that the game on release will be feature complete, fully moddable, and have enough hand-crafted scenarios to provide a ton of content. That being said, I can't imagine a scenario where we aren't at the very least adding in new agents, abilities, and classes - though I expect modders to be racing us down that road.
With the endless simulation, will it be a case where being defeated and sealed up simply makes the game "skip" ahead for a time and you rise or and start again. If so, can you have it that your surviving agents (if any) can look for a way to reverse the seal and get you back in early, whether via event or controlling them directly?
We just posted an update going over the Endless Simulation plans, your defeat, just like your victory, will be a "critical event" if you enable Endless Simulation - you can continue to play past these moments within certain constraints. If you are FULLY SEALED and your agents defeated it still spells game over (we imagine a window whereby a ritual or grand sacrifice or similar can bring you back.) Being fully sealed will most likely involve the Heroes or Nations fulfilling one of the dynamic prophecies, so even if you are on the verge of defeat you can avert true death by blocking the completion of the prophecy. The details on this are subject to change based on our proof of concept.
Now... what I CAN'T commit to because we haven't POC'd this, is the ability for a lesser evil under your control to assume your power and for you to then continue playing as that Evil. I CANNOT say this will be in the game for sure, but we plan to put it on the dev wish list and see if it's feasible.
Also we posted the Endless Simulation description update today instead of Dev Log #4 Part I (we ran to 48 minutes so we had to split the video, just too much to go over) so we could get it out before we actually hit the goal. Let me know if you have any concerns or questions based on the description and we'll address what is feasible within the planned scope. We left it slightly open-ended, because the more we raise the further we can push the Endless Simulation features, but everything we have written is promised as part of hitting the stretch goal.
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 02:28:56 am
So with the whole idea of endless mode being that your rise to power is just a period of uncertainty of the fate of the world rather then a foregone conclusion (one way or the other) between light and darkness does that mean you can have a game where you can do your own thing and not try to take over? While taking over the world would probably make whatever "objective" you're trying to fulfill easier, can you actually let the world continue on while you watch and try to complete whatever it is you're trying to do without interfering, or even benevolently?
Is it possible, or planned, to be able to create your own kingdom but rule it as a "fair" leader (or through one, at least), setting up diplomacy and trade with neighbors and foster your own place in the world? I'd love the idea of getting a bunch of tribal orcs, prosecuted for being what they are and trying to shape them into a noble race of free men (for given value of "free" and "men"). Hell, that scenario start choice saying that you have "children" wondering around the world would be a perfect excuse to set an objective to find them and forge a home.
Also, since heroes are supposed to be solving problems and bringing the world closer together in friendship and harmony (bleh) what's stopping them from doing so in the endless/procedural mode when you're not around to actually contest that?
What does POC mean, by the way?
Post by: Majestic7 on October 07, 2014, 03:09:26 am
Endless mode sounds interesting, any ideas to make it a sort of meta-campaign? So once you beat the world or are beaten, you fall back into slumber and move to a next scenario which is the next cycle of the world ages later? Some of the stuff you did carrying over to the following worlds.
Post by: Vordrak on October 07, 2014, 03:56:08 am
Can KingDinosaurGames confirm that will still be in?
Post by: Mithras on October 07, 2014, 04:03:44 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 07, 2014, 04:10:55 am
Can't wait for the videos to come out. Got a bunch of questions about your post as well.
So with the whole idea of endless mode being that your rise to power is just a period of uncertainty of the fate of the world rather then a foregone conclusion (one way or the other) between light and darkness does that mean you can have a game where you can do your own thing and not try to take over? While taking over the world would probably make whatever "objective" you're trying to fulfill easier, can you actually let the world continue on while you watch and try to complete whatever it is you're trying to do without interfering, or even benevolently?
Is it possible, or planned, to be able to create your own kingdom but rule it as a "fair" leader (or through one, at least), setting up diplomacy and trade with neighbors and foster your own place in the world? I'd love the idea of getting a bunch of tribal orcs, prosecuted for being what they are and trying to shape them into a noble race of free men (for given value of "free" and "men"). Hell, that scenario start choice saying that you have "children" wondering around the world would be a perfect excuse to set an objective to find them and forge a home.
Also, since heroes are supposed to be solving problems and bringing the world closer together in friendship and harmony (bleh) what's stopping them from doing so in the endless/procedural mode when you're not around to actually contest that?
What does POC mean, by the way?
POC = Proof of Concept, generally a technical demo of something to ensure what we're imagining as a solution isn't ridiculous.
Yep, the idea is that the AI no longer is GUARANTEED to see you as the end of the world - if you act like the End of the World they will but by default you will be treated as just another threat. Part of Endless is to let you do a little bit of house-keepering with the orcs, so you may just find yourself with a little more respectable orc rabble. It will never quite reach a 4x experience, it's more to add a little bit of additional deceit to your approach to conquering the world.
We're lowering the inevitability of heroes bringing the world to an orderly shape as part of Endless Simulation, and increasing the disharmony that is a part of society's interactions. This gives the world a more natural ebb and flow, sometimes tending towards order and sometimes tending towards more war.
Quick question regarding procedural generation and the ability to turn stretch goals on and off. If you find the procedural generation goal reached, will you be replacing the current map system with a sprite based map? Will modders still be able to use a single image to create a new scenario map?
Yes, we will be replacing the current map system with a tiled map, but the approach remains the same so you would still be able to drag a single image onto the editor and use that for your map. Procedural will simply be an option to have a map generated for you if you do not wish to use a single (or multiple) image.
Post by: Vordrak on October 07, 2014, 05:24:05 am
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 05:34:03 am
I keep thinking of a sort of colour-coded editor mode for the map before the procedural part begins, where you're essentially given a paint brush that has different colours on it that link it to different terrain types, so painting an area, say, brown would make POIs spawned there made into dessert-type biomes. Obviously the colours would be hidden from view when playing the actual game.
Post by: rylen on October 07, 2014, 07:22:18 am
Can you switch Old Ones during play? While Azlan failed to subsume the world, the chaos he caused gave the orc tribes room to grow and mingle. Now you, as Whatshisface, manifest to lead them to conquest.
Will Agents respawn? Azlan gets his peddler killed. Does he get another in a later rising. They are archetypes, after all. What about long lived ones like the Baron who might remember you? Could they continue after your fall as Lesser Evils?
Any chance of Agent and government types dependent on things that happened back in the history? For instance, the only way you get a Necromantic Republic is a large amount of prior research on thinking unlife.
How will the game handle city build up? The impression I have from glimpses at the scenario video is the cities start with a few building and guilds and add more over the game. Was that because Adventura was a relatively young city?
How are you thinking of handling an Old One victory? I think a Sim City emergency menu would complement the scenario creation choices.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 07, 2014, 07:40:16 am
So we can still win by killing everyone and ending the world, right? (Kind of a core game concept).
Haha, yes - even if you were to enable all of the Endless Simulation modes the game would still have to end at that point.
So if you used your own map, how does the game recognize where to put the POI's and what type to have them be, or is it not possible to use crafted maps with procedural generation?
I keep thinking of a sort of colour-coded editor mode for the map before the procedural part begins, where you're essentially given a paint brush that has different colours on it that link it to different terrain types, so painting an area, say, brown would make POIs spawned there made into dessert-type biomes. Obviously the colours would be hidden from view when playing the actual game.
If you use your own map you would not be able to use procedural generation, because of the issue you're pointing out (impossible to figure out where to put POIs). We could create a hybrid version where you establish POIs and terrain data but that's probably not worth the effort.
Yeah that's actually not too far from how it works, though we don't paint it with terrain it's kind've the idea in the background - we're going to show off the POC and you'll see how we're approaching it.
Cool dev log. After reading it, I have a bunch more questions.
Can you switch Old Ones during play? While Azlan failed to subsume the world, the chaos he caused gave the orc tribes room to grow and mingle. Now you, as Whatshisface, manifest to lead them to conquest.
Will Agents respawn? Azlan gets his peddler killed. Does he get another in a later rising. They are archetypes, after all. What about long lived ones like the Baron who might remember you? Could they continue after your fall as Lesser Evils?
Any chance of Agent and government types dependent on things that happened back in the history? For instance, the only way you get a Necromantic Republic is a large amount of prior research on thinking unlife.
How will the game handle city build up? The impression I have from glimpses at the scenario video is the cities start with a few building and guilds and add more over the game. Was that because Adventura was a relatively young city?
How are you thinking of handling an Old One victory? I think a Sim City emergency menu would complement the scenario creation choices.
We're looking at swapping Old Ones mid-game, but can't promise it at this point.
Agents never respawn except for very rare, and special, circumstances (and they will not be quite the same). Each agent is an important tactical piece and losing one is very impactful.
As far as agents and government dependent on history there is an element of that, but it would be stronger in procedural generation.
We actually don't have as much build up in Cities, the world being relatively static - you are correct that Aventura is a much smaller/younger city than the more developed capitals of other countries. Buildings fluctuate much more with a planned game mode from Endless SImulation.
What do you mean by Sim City emergency menu?
Post by: rylen on October 07, 2014, 07:55:39 am
I'm asking in the context of endless play and multiple attempts to take over the world. The last peddler was over 200 years back. He would be naturally dead by now. This also means that each attempt to play would have an increasingly small supporting cast.Cool dev log. After reading it, I have a bunch more questions.
Will Agents respawn? Azlan gets his peddler killed. Does he get another in a later rising. They are archetypes, after all. What about long lived ones like the Baron who might remember you? Could they continue after your fall as Lesser Evils?
How are you thinking of handling an Old One victory? I think a Sim City emergency menu would complement the scenario creation choices.
Agents never respawn except for very rare, and special, circumstances (and they will not be quite the same). Each agent is an important tactical piece and losing one is very impactful.
What do you mean by Sim City emergency menu?
I looked it up and, properly, it's called the Disaster Menu. You get a list of disasters, choose one, and it happens. Flood, fire, godzillas. For TWS, force a successful overthrow and sealing by a Sage, Hero, King, or Rival. Iterate a few hundred years. Then resume play in Endless mode. It is one answer to Old One victory as the end of history.
Edited to say I was talking about respawns for endless play.
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 08:19:14 am
I looked it up and, properly, it's called the Disaster Menu. You get a list of disasters, choose one, and it happens. Flood, fire, godzillas. For TWS, force a successful overthrow and sealing by a Sage, Hero, King, or Rival. Iterate a few hundred years. Then resume play in Endless mode. It is one answer to Old One victory as the end of history.
That could be a very interesting "survival" tactic: conduct a ritual to purposely seal yourself back up for a vague amount of time in the event of the world becoming aware of your return too early or are just plain too difficult to beat. Then, after a vague amount of time, when your name has once again passed into legend, rise up and try again. You could even have it that each time you cast the spell, the sages of the world have a stronger chance to recognize this sudden "defeat" of you for what it is and try to disrupt it, possibly resulting in you sleeping for a lot longer/shorter then you would want, or your powers being messed with.
On the subject of that: are there any plans for some sort of "dynamic" magic system where the old one your playing as can gain and lose certain abilities over time due to various "prophesies" and the like? Hell, if you can, I would like a game mode where the longer the history of the world continues on (in endless mode, of course) magic starts getting weaker over time before fading, limiting your own powers or forcing you to try and bring it back.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 07, 2014, 09:03:05 am
I'm asking in the context of endless play and multiple attempts to take over the world. The last peddler was over 200 years back. He would be naturally dead by now. This also means that each attempt to play would have an increasingly small supporting cast.Cool dev log. After reading it, I have a bunch more questions.
Will Agents respawn? Azlan gets his peddler killed. Does he get another in a later rising. They are archetypes, after all. What about long lived ones like the Baron who might remember you? Could they continue after your fall as Lesser Evils?
How are you thinking of handling an Old One victory? I think a Sim City emergency menu would complement the scenario creation choices.
Agents never respawn except for very rare, and special, circumstances (and they will not be quite the same). Each agent is an important tactical piece and losing one is very impactful.
What do you mean by Sim City emergency menu?
I looked it up and, properly, it's called the Disaster Menu. You get a list of disasters, choose one, and it happens. Flood, fire, godzillas. For TWS, force a successful overthrow and sealing by a Sage, Hero, King, or Rival. Iterate a few hundred years. Then resume play in Endless mode. It is one answer to Old One victory as the end of history.
Edited to say I was talking about respawns for endless play.
Ahh I see - it's a good question, we really won't know until we get the Beta testers playing Endless Mode - it may be that we need to add that ability for Agents to return though I am initially wary of the idea.
As for being sealed away and returning over time, we'd support something similar if Procedural makes it (and then only for Procedural maps).
I looked it up and, properly, it's called the Disaster Menu. You get a list of disasters, choose one, and it happens. Flood, fire, godzillas. For TWS, force a successful overthrow and sealing by a Sage, Hero, King, or Rival. Iterate a few hundred years. Then resume play in Endless mode. It is one answer to Old One victory as the end of history.
That could be a very interesting "survival" tactic: conduct a ritual to purposely seal yourself back up for a vague amount of time in the event of the world becoming aware of your return too early or are just plain too difficult to beat. Then, after a vague amount of time, when your name has once again passed into legend, rise up and try again. You could even have it that each time you cast the spell, the sages of the world have a stronger chance to recognize this sudden "defeat" of you for what it is and try to disrupt it, possibly resulting in you sleeping for a lot longer/shorter then you would want, or your powers being messed with.
On the subject of that: are there any plans for some sort of "dynamic" magic system where the old one your playing as can gain and lose certain abilities over time due to various "prophesies" and the like? Hell, if you can, I would like a game mode where the longer the history of the world continues on (in endless mode, of course) magic starts getting weaker over time before fading, limiting your own powers or forcing you to try and bring it back.
We do have some dynamic elements that can be gained and lost, but not too much - however in Procedural depending on when you waken the level of power in the world will be greatly different, and this includes magic. As far as forcing you to bring it back, this sounds like a rather in-depth campaign/event combination that would be pretty interesting.
Post by: Capsicum on October 07, 2014, 11:59:07 am
We don't really have a solid commitment to expansion plans - what we have is a commitment that the game on release will be feature complete, fully moddable, and have enough hand-crafted scenarios to provide a ton of content. That being said, I can't imagine a scenario where we aren't at the very least adding in new agents, abilities, and classes - though I expect modders to be racing us down that road.
Fine, take my money, as if I really had the willpower to resist a Lovecraftian strategy game. The Case of Charles Dexter Ward looks promising as well. My wallet needs a vacation.
Post by: Zangi on October 07, 2014, 01:37:48 pm
Theoretically, I'd be able to mod in something along the lines of deities/old ones that would only 'care' for a certain race/their own followers and their relations can range from genocidal to 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone'. (The fact that their strength can be based on faith is a big plus...)
>.> Just a little world that I play around with in my head every now and then... the mechanics of this game and its moddability may be awesome enough to make something of it.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 07, 2014, 01:49:40 pm
So... question on moddability, what with rival old ones and what-not.
Theoretically, I'd be able to mod in something along the lines of deities/old ones that would only 'care' for a certain race/their own followers and their relations can range from genocidal to 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone'. (The fact that their strength can be based on faith is a big plus...)
>.> Just a little world that I play around with in my head every now and then... the mechanics of this game and its moddability may be awesome enough to make something of it.
Yes - a cornerstone of our design is easy defined and predictable AI, which can then be tempered by other factors. Create an Old One or a God that overwhelmingly wants to protect a certain race and they will let the world collapse into darkness as long as you leave their precious chosen people alone. Granted, we do have a mechanic where Leader Heroes will try to come convince isolationist powers to join against your power - but if they're going to be making a pitch directly to a God it's a grand endeavor and one you will probably become aware of.
On the other hand you can make an Old One that is, as you put it, genocidal. It loves its people and looks down on all others , this is where the personality traits will help define if the path to putting its people on top of the world is one of slow maneuvering and cunning or a more mindless wave of violence.
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 09:13:12 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 07, 2014, 10:06:42 pm
You mentioned duelist agents so this might already exist in some form. The Champion (or something) is a mysterious warrior who specializes in luring people into single combat and fucking them up. Abilities are combat stuff based around forcing heroes to fight one on one to the death and killing them in said manfights.
Scheme is Vendetta, sends a hero a challenge he can't refuse. He gets a compulsion to seek out the Champion and duel him, slowly losing will (and falling prey to some kind of insanity/corruption if it gets too low, permanent berserk rage maybe?) the longer he goes without fighting him. Probably would need some kind of lesser but equivalent effect on the Champion so you don't just keep running away until the guy goes crazy.
Set him up in some high-danger dungeon or something and send the call to some hero, watch him abandon his mission to go on some suicidal cross-country journey to duel a guy who will almost certainly kill him.
Post by: Jalak on October 07, 2014, 11:41:46 pm
Post by: Rabid_Cog on October 08, 2014, 12:22:40 am
Post by: Xantalos on October 08, 2014, 12:31:42 am
Post by: Jalak on October 08, 2014, 04:01:32 am
How's the next video going to come along?
Post by: Broken on October 08, 2014, 05:02:52 am
Someone backed 300$ more.
i really hope this reaches 53k.
Post by: ventuswings on October 08, 2014, 07:49:56 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 08, 2014, 09:03:19 am
Eh, like Jalek said, that theme/ability seems too redundant to warrant distinct Agent. You can use the Hero's weaknesses with any Duelist Agents and achieve a similar thing.
To second this, the mechanic of infuriating a hero and trying to lure him out to make foolish mistakes is part of the game and any Agent can try to rile them up to that extent. Some Agents are definitely better at it than others, but it is a core (and fun) mechanic.
Endless Simulation achieved!
Someone backed 300$ more.
i really hope this reaches 53k.
I do as well! We're going to release a video showing off the Procedural Generation solution we have been working on, I think it's pretty clever. I also hope we get another 1k backer, the 1k tier really benefits everyone since that person is personally funding an agent.
Congrats on yet another stretch goal, though it didn't seem that surprising at this point. I think that, unless potential investors get some sort of additional incentive (demo), we're going to be really hard pressed for the next stretch goal.
How's the next video going to come along?
We're releasing the prior demo in 3 parts starting today (uploaded last night), we need to somewhat draw it out while we get the Procedural Demo Video up and running. We also have about 40 minutes of military gameplay we need to distil down, but that's going to be a lower priority then the Procedural Demo.
I'm agenting all over the place. If I had a million bucks...
You mentioned duelist agents so this might already exist in some form. The Champion (or something) is a mysterious warrior who specializes in luring people into single combat and fucking them up. Abilities are combat stuff based around forcing heroes to fight one on one to the death and killing them in said manfights.
Scheme is Vendetta, sends a hero a challenge he can't refuse. He gets a compulsion to seek out the Champion and duel him, slowly losing will (and falling prey to some kind of insanity/corruption if it gets too low, permanent berserk rage maybe?) the longer he goes without fighting him. Probably would need some kind of lesser but equivalent effect on the Champion so you don't just keep running away until the guy goes crazy.
Set him up in some high-danger dungeon or something and send the call to some hero, watch him abandon his mission to go on some suicidal cross-country journey to duel a guy who will almost certainly kill him.
The problem is that the Hound somewhat has a similar ability, as long as his target remains wounded he can continue to Bay at him - driving him slowly insane unless he comes out to confront the Hound. We only have one Agent that has the duelist trait by default, but his skill is devastatingly political.
With the minions that your agents can have, do some of them have some sort of passive bonus they bring if there is another army in the area doing its own thing? Like, say, your agent has some giants with him and an army of yours clashes with another in the same POI, can you use those giants to provide "shock" damage or whatever at the risk of getting them killed? I'd imagine they would be hard to miss in a middle of a war-zone.
If you have an army there you can join the army and fight, or you can engage in guerilla warfare. Some minions do have unique challenges that affect military battles outside of actually fighting.
Post by: Jalak on October 08, 2014, 10:12:57 am
We're releasing the prior demo in 3 parts starting today (uploaded last night), we need to somewhat draw it out while we get the Procedural Demo Video up and running. We also have about 40 minutes of military gameplay we need to distil down, but that's going to be a lower priority then the Procedural Demo.
Dammit, I got all excited and a little confused at this part until I realized that you probably meant "We're releasing the prior DEVLOG in 3 parts starting today". Oh well, the video is still welcome anyway.
Post by: Mithras on October 08, 2014, 10:30:10 am
Post by: Jalak on October 08, 2014, 12:47:35 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 08, 2014, 01:58:22 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 08, 2014, 02:42:19 pm
Ermahgerd, that is one sexy mod toolkit. Not being proficient in scripting myself, I'm glad you broke it down as simplistically as possible. Love that we can just raw import assets into the map, in lots of games that is a huge pain in the ass if it's possible at all.
We tried to follow our mantra of keeping the most common use case incredibly simple - which has helped us a lot in creating large scenarios very quickly. The down side is that if you want to do something more complicated you can end up with a clutter on the screen, wait until you see Video 2 where I have maybe 14 windows open at a time.
I'm actually really excited to overhaul the gui for the editor, a lot of it was done "expediently" when we needed to get that element into the game and with a little tender love and care it will be much more user friendly.
I noticed that in the stats screen the number of nations is 16 but the number of champions is 8, is this the condition at game start, where 8 champions have been pregenerated and more champions will be selected in the 8 nations without champions? Or is it the total number of nations that are able to have champions? I always expected each nation to have a champion for some reason, like a representative of the nation at a hero vs. agent level of the game which would otherwise be difficult for the nation to interact with directly.
Not every nation will have a Champion - though almost every major nation will have at least one. It was a design choice on our end to represent a weakness on the part of that nation that they don't have the capabilities a Champion offers, not only does it make them a more viable choice for infiltration early in the game it also makes you want to prevent them from gaining Champions as the game goes on.
By the way, the endless simulation update mentioned the possibility of some sort of continuity with the old ones you use between each scenario, if you want. How would that work, and is there some sort of character creation and statistics screen you could have for your old one to represent it's "birth" and journey through the dimensions? Could there be a bunch of custom ritual trees you could assign to your old one at start so you wouldn't have to make your own rituals in the editor and be forced to constantly fine tune and balance?
Some of that is still TBD - we were mostly keeping the implications of the scenario you were in - tracking the corrupted, the Chosen One, your important campaigns you participated in etc - and then having that impact your next playthrough. In addition we were envisioning a mechanic where you could evolve your power in response to your success dealing with prophecy in each game, coming finally to unravel prophecy forever in the end.
You can make a ton of custom rituals, but those are generally not assigned to an Old One (though that option exists).
Post by: Jalak on October 08, 2014, 05:29:40 pm
You can make a ton of custom rituals, but those are generally not assigned to an Old One (though that option exists).
What I meant is that can there be a list of pre-made powers somewhere that I can switch out with the various old ones existing ritual trees so that I can add a more personable touch without having to make a power myself?
Post by: rylen on October 08, 2014, 06:28:46 pm
Not every nation will have a Champion - though almost every major nation will have at least one. It was a design choice on our end to represent a weakness on the part of that nation that they don't have the capabilities a Champion offers, not only does it make them a more viable choice for infiltration early in the game it also makes you want to prevent them from gaining Champions as the game goes on.
And some nice advantages if you get one of your corrupted heroes into the coveted post?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 08, 2014, 07:07:48 pm
You can make a ton of custom rituals, but those are generally not assigned to an Old One (though that option exists).
What I meant is that can there be a list of pre-made powers somewhere that I can switch out with the various old ones existing ritual trees so that I can add a more personable touch without having to make a power myself?
Ahh, ok so our terminology is Rituals are "Challenges" that Agents perform - whereas what you are talking about are Old One Ancient Abilities or more commonly just "Abilities."
This is actually a really great suggestion - I'll show you how quick it is to either slot in and out Abilities from different Ability Trees, change a simple modifier to make them more/less powerful, or add a quick effect. The mod tools for abilities and effects are very simple to use, though some of Effect Codes can be incomprehensible (which is why we need to add in tooltips).
Not every nation will have a Champion - though almost every major nation will have at least one. It was a design choice on our end to represent a weakness on the part of that nation that they don't have the capabilities a Champion offers, not only does it make them a more viable choice for infiltration early in the game it also makes you want to prevent them from gaining Champions as the game goes on.
And some nice advantages if you get one of your corrupted heroes into the coveted post?
Exactly!
Post by: ventuswings on October 08, 2014, 07:40:41 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 08, 2014, 08:06:46 pm
Is it possible for there to be multiple Champions per nation? If so, do they form one single "squad" (party) or act independently depending on the situation?
There is no limit to the number of Champions a nation can have, but outside of the Knight class (a mid tier fighter class that requires sponsorship by a nation) heroes do not often become Champions of a nation. If a sufficiently large threat emerged they may form a Party but in general they act independently to efficiently put down threats and help bolster the nation depending on their class.
Post by: Broken on October 09, 2014, 06:19:03 am
(And thus, a new agent type)
Cool.
Post by: rylen on October 09, 2014, 11:08:52 am
Is it possible for there to be multiple Champions per nation? If so, do they form one single "squad" (party) or act independently depending on the situation?
There is no limit to the number of Champions a nation can have, but outside of the Knight class (a mid tier fighter class that requires sponsorship by a nation) heroes do not often become Champions of a nation. If a sufficiently large threat emerged they may form a Party but in general they act independently to efficiently put down threats and help bolster the nation depending on their class.
Is there a cost to having/creating Champions? Why wouldn't a nation sponsor several?
Post by: Zangi on October 09, 2014, 11:22:26 am
Post by: rylen on October 09, 2014, 11:50:44 am
Probably the costs associated with it, fluffwise anyways. Champions represent the realm in question and are likely to gain a lot of support of all types from the nation they represent. Having more then 1 may be costly and egos of multiple champions may clash, even as far going out of their way to deny help to each other, all the while flittering the resources of the realm to accomplish that. /fluffMaybe champions are a factor in AI threat assessment. A small nation with several is potentially as scary as the mid-sized one with a decent army.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 09, 2014, 01:27:03 pm
Is it possible for there to be multiple Champions per nation? If so, do they form one single "squad" (party) or act independently depending on the situation?
There is no limit to the number of Champions a nation can have, but outside of the Knight class (a mid tier fighter class that requires sponsorship by a nation) heroes do not often become Champions of a nation. If a sufficiently large threat emerged they may form a Party but in general they act independently to efficiently put down threats and help bolster the nation depending on their class.
Is there a cost to having/creating Champions? Why wouldn't a nation sponsor several?
There is a cost to the nation, but it more comes down to "creation." Nations don't build Champions like you would in a strategy game, they begin the game with some of these Champions who represent the talented veterans that have been a part of the state for years, and only gain more through either a) recruiting a Hero to be their Champion or b) rare events that bring into being a Champion from the background of the country.
Hero's won't simply accept an offer, many of them have no desire to become pawns of a King - though certain adventurer friendly countries may find it easier to recruit from the heroes that wander through their lands. It also comes down to the Leader AI, some will want to recruit as many Champions as possible but others will rely on institutional actions to further their agenda.
Post by: Jalak on October 10, 2014, 12:42:25 am
Also, are there any pirate/warlord government types somewhere, that while technically part of the civilized world, are so aggressive in their social norms that they might as well be one of the "red" nations?
Post by: Lapoleon on October 10, 2014, 02:59:09 am
So if the procedural generation manages to get him, are the maps going to have the same aesthetics as the ones you have now or are you planning some other look? Can you also change the actual look of the map in the game, such as covering everything in snow or raising sea levels, rather then have it represented by some POI status effect?
Also, are there any pirate/warlord government types somewhere, that while technically part of the civilized world, are so aggressive in their social norms that they might as well be one of the "red" nations?
That could lead to some really amazing Ancient Ones (or even Rival Ancient Ones). I can imagine an old Ice God trying to start the next Ice Age, or some other god who wants to drown the entire world. The Ice Age would first start with lots of failed harvests and starvation, whilst the flooding one would be able to destroy coastal POIs. Even if the map doesn't change you might be able to do something with the particle effects by overlaying a rather large white/blue layer and mark the POI as destroyed.
Pirates (and bandits) would indeed be a nice faction to see. They could easily mess up trade which is a good thing as I understand it.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 10, 2014, 02:34:33 pm
So if the procedural generation manages to get him, are the maps going to have the same aesthetics as the ones you have now or are you planning some other look? Can you also change the actual look of the map in the game, such as covering everything in snow or raising sea levels, rather then have it represented by some POI status effect?
Also, are there any pirate/warlord government types somewhere, that while technically part of the civilized world, are so aggressive in their social norms that they might as well be one of the "red" nations?
We're going to stretch the budget as far as it will go - the Aesthetic will be MUCH darker in tone, and as it will be tiled we will be able to alter the terrain (which brings me GREAT JOY). Not only will this, as you say, clean up the POI status effects it also let's show the "state of the world" at a glance much better. Never really thought we'd hit this goal, we are lining up artists to make sample tiles. Plan is to get them to the Beta Backers by the end of the first month after KS and get some review feedback.
The difficulty is that now we are going "backwards", originally we were designing the units, heroes, and agents to conform to the Map we had - now we will be targeting map enhancements first and foremost then moving back to the actual map assets. This won't push back our release because we will be continuing with development, but it does mean that the Beta release may not yet have the updated assets because we need to fully test the new map itself before commissioning the map assets.
The personality of a leader, or the personality of the culture, can be so extreme that they are terrible warmongers. The Arden Protectorate in the North Burns is ruled with an iron fist by a glory seeking warlord, who holds back only on his rational quality. In the Black Seas their is a human "civilized" nation that is all about raiding, the cultural values of its people ignore almost any other quality except valor in battle and plunder.
So if the procedural generation manages to get him, are the maps going to have the same aesthetics as the ones you have now or are you planning some other look? Can you also change the actual look of the map in the game, such as covering everything in snow or raising sea levels, rather then have it represented by some POI status effect?
Also, are there any pirate/warlord government types somewhere, that while technically part of the civilized world, are so aggressive in their social norms that they might as well be one of the "red" nations?
That could lead to some really amazing Ancient Ones (or even Rival Ancient Ones). I can imagine an old Ice God trying to start the next Ice Age, or some other god who wants to drown the entire world. The Ice Age would first start with lots of failed harvests and starvation, whilst the flooding one would be able to destroy coastal POIs. Even if the map doesn't change you might be able to do something with the particle effects by overlaying a rather large white/blue layer and mark the POI as destroyed.
Pirates (and bandits) would indeed be a nice faction to see. They could easily mess up trade which is a good thing as I understand it.
Yep, WAY backin the day we had this awesome algorithm to make geological effects on a procedural map - unfortunately the map itself was too "abstract" to have units on it without it looking ridiculous. We had an Ice God who was intent on covering the world in a climate more fitting for his children - with this change happening I am going to see if we can squeeze him back in.
Pirates and Bandits exist, but not as factions - they appear as modifiers on a POI and need to be quested against by heroes or hunted down by armies to leave. You (or another nation) can commission them, or they may randomly appear. If they persist they can rise in difficulty, going from being a minor nuisance to actually destroying a village.
Post by: Zangi on October 10, 2014, 02:57:26 pm
Post by: rylen on October 10, 2014, 03:42:58 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 10, 2014, 05:01:03 pm
Can they, instead of destroying a village take it over? Doesn't make sense for them to completely destroy their source of loot. But then, their actions will probably leech the life out of a village enough to end up destroying it I guess.
It depends on the particular modifier - some of them end up at an ultimate state of occupying it without the possession changing while others can actually start a new nation. The most common, however, simply grinds the village slowly to death.
Post by: Jalak on October 10, 2014, 05:19:17 pm
Also, are there any plans for an official scenario to represent a late roman-era timeline, by that I mean a massive empire that stretches over half the map with various cultural and economical tensions with a hostile collection of tribes migrating in?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 10, 2014, 05:28:01 pm
I just remembered that you said that "black" classes would be put in if the old one stretch goal was made. So, are the plans for that still on and what examples are there?
Also, are there any plans for an official scenario to represent a late roman-era timeline, by that I mean a massive empire that stretches over half the map with various cultural and economical tensions with a hostile collection of tribes migrating in?
Oh there's a few but we're going to have to balance them and cut a bunch - we had a long list of potential ideas so we're going to have to bring it down to the base classes plus possibly a major variant per race. I don't quite feel comfortable announcing any because based on how the expansions play out we may swap them, but you'll have the standard archetypes of the Fallen Paladin, the Priest who Turns Against his Faith, and the Wizard who sells his soul for power. We have to carefully weigh them against the Lesser Evils, who are fulfilling something of a similar role.
Yes, we are still testing the mechanics of Empires and Provinces but given the amount of effort we are putting in (and the fantastic situations that are emerging from it) it will appear in some form or another. What is still up for debate is if we go ahead and make it a low-fantasy roman simulation or simply use the roman empire as an inspiration for a more traditional fantasy setup.
Post by: Darkmere on October 10, 2014, 08:29:06 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 11, 2014, 04:26:03 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 12, 2014, 12:48:57 am
Post by: i2amroy on October 12, 2014, 01:29:04 am
Where the hell are these bursts of backers coming from? From what you were saying before, I thought that there was hardly any media for this.Well that last burst was probably from the greenlit happening, which's timing probably couldn't have been better.
Post by: Xantalos on October 12, 2014, 01:31:52 am
Where the hell are these bursts of backers coming from? From what you were saying before, I thought that there was hardly any media for this.Belial did it
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 12, 2014, 02:26:25 am
The sacrifices were not in vain.Where the hell are these bursts of backers coming from? From what you were saying before, I thought that there was hardly any media for this.Belial did it
Post by: Jalak on October 12, 2014, 11:47:50 am
Also, what was it about the Death God that made it too unbalanced but essential to his theme that you had to get rid of him, rather then mod out whatever it was that was causing the problem?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 12, 2014, 01:21:50 pm
Besides the Death God, were there any other old ones that were cut out of the game? What were they, and why?
Also, what was it about the Death God that made it too unbalanced but essential to his theme that you had to get rid of him, rather then mod out whatever it was that was causing the problem?
There is a sixth Old One, the Slivered Divine, the Mirror of Fate - can manifest itself as avatars across the world and is attempting to end forever the cycle of prophecy. Many of its powers dealt with time, and distorting gameplay - we simply hadn't finished it when we decided to lock down to go towards the demo. Plenty of fun bugs right now.
The problem with the Death God is that everything is a positive feedback loop for him - death strengthens him, all his powers rely on death, and of course the effect of his powers is death. You're really just looking for a tipping point with him, make him too weak and it's not enough fun to get there, too strong and it occurs too quickly and the game is a foregone conclusion. We don't really want such a simple gameplay for what should be a core Old One.
Post by: Jalak on October 12, 2014, 02:02:19 pm
By the way, can you have the official (or modded) Old One's that you can choose at scenario start possibly show up in the game as rival Old Ones later on in that game?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 12, 2014, 03:06:44 pm
How about having a Death God that takes the death part as it is naturally intended to? Have an Old One that gets it's power from death without the actual rising part. you get a bunch of powers relating to that that slowly kills the world (plagues, blights, blotting out the sun) and the balance is in trying to kill off the world while making sure you don't accidentally put down your own allies/agents too quickly at the same time? Although, I guess you could put that under some different Old One, like Nurgle or something.
By the way, can you have the official (or modded) Old One's that you can choose at scenario start possibly show up in the game as rival Old Ones later on in that game?
We're going to continue to try and balance the Death aspect - it may be that the AI can be enhanced to react faster to such a global threat as "the death of everything."
Currently the Rival Old Ones are a separate construct, but we do want to look into enabling the primary Old Ones as Rivals.
Post by: rylen on October 12, 2014, 03:47:53 pm
Post by: birdy51 on October 12, 2014, 04:33:37 pm
In addition, I have a feeling that Death does not gain allies easy. It's binary nature, live or die, does not normally attract allies. Revealing Death's true nature should and would rarely be a good thing. No one sane would want support death. Logistically, death doesn't retreat. Although Death should be able to raise larger armies than the other Old Ones, it's not a sophisticated living army. Retreat is not an option. Most undead creatures aren't sentient enough to run. Therefore, Armies are expendable, although not unlimited.
So perhaps that should be the game of Death. Wait in the shadows, slowly building a sizeable army. Timing is everything because Death cannot hide.
Meep. Thoughts.
Post by: thepodger on October 12, 2014, 04:38:04 pm
A dominion of death lowers income and causes population loss across the board lowering income for everyone.
A "well of misery" that bestows the caster with considerable resources for death magic rituals, but acts a global misery and illness syphon, slowing the spread of disease, raising happiness and taxation efficiency, etc.
"Burden of time" causes -everyone- in the world to age extraordinarily quickly.
Ideas like this, and perhaps playing into Death as an aspect and champion of natural growth and justice, the passage of time, the judge and executioner, rather than a pure malevolence that wants to replace humanity with the walking dead... that angle might result in a more interesting Great Old One.
After all, Death created time to grow the things it would kill. When the world is ash and everything is dead, death has defeated itself.
Death's agents, rather than grow ever more powerful, should opt to "join their master" once they've become true disciples. His greatest servants become the soil which will grow the food that will feed his disciples that will become the soil...
Death should revile healing and the sciences.
Death should view the undead as an abomination.
Death has no enemies, nor does it play favorites. It will take you no matter how much you love it or how much you hate it.
It's win state is the undoing of the sciences, the return of mankind to its natural state of savagery, beasts that eat and sleep and shit and procreate. To break man's yoke over nature, arrest its dominion over the course natural law.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 12, 2014, 04:54:19 pm
Maybe some lore would help with the death god. If it ruled in the ancient past, why was there anyone alive to oppose it? Perhaps it needs to be the one seeking balance; after all, if there is no life there can be no death.
The lore behind the "Death God" is pretty simple, essentially he was reigned in by the other Old Ones but now as he rises alone (or must overcome his rival old ones) he can finally achieve the true "End" of life that is his essence. If we want to look at him as part of an Order where Life and Death are unified, he is part of that only while balanced out, in realizing his ambitions he may end himself, but that is his essence to struggle for that absolute end.
As usual, we try to leave the particular lore of the Old Ones somewhat ambiguous, to let the player inject his own reasoning for his actions.
Perhaps a view change is also necessary. Death can also be seen as the absence or weakening of Life. Death's march can be seen as that of a virus, it weakens it decays. It doesn't find allies, it makes them until the host is unable to fight back. But particularly virulent diseases are the ones that people eliminate quickly. A Death God that is raising armies of bones is going to be countered. Instead of burying the dead, burning them so that their bodies cannot be eliminated. Priests are like Doctors, they know how and where to find cures. A priest in the right place at the right time can counter, even cure the disease of death.
In addition, I have a feeling that Death does not gain allies easy. It's binary nature, live or die, does not normally attract allies. Revealing Death's true nature should and would rarely be a good thing. No one sane would want support death. Logistically, death doesn't retreat. Although Death should be able to raise larger armies than the other Old Ones, it's not a sophisticated living army. Retreat is not an option. Most undead creatures aren't sentient enough to run. Therefore, Armies are expendable, although not unlimited.
So perhaps that should be the game of Death. Wait in the shadows, slowly building a sizeable army. Timing is everything because Death cannot hide.
Meep. Thoughts.
I do like that approach, and we do have a Old One that was cut who is much more similar to that mechanically (we will be presenting him as a Stretch Goal choice for the backers).
As far as mechanics, I think what you are describing with more ad hoc methods to prevent Death is the direction we will go in to balance his gameplay - stronger direct counters that you need to tactically prevent. However, to make this fun we will need to work specifically on the AI to counter these approaches that Death can take - and balancing when these countermeasures emerge will make all the difference. These issues are a big part of why we simply put him aside for now.
Dominions 4 has some interesting effects relating to death magic.
A dominion of death lowers income and causes population loss across the board lowering income for everyone.
A "well of misery" that bestows the caster with considerable resources for death magic rituals, but acts a global misery and illness syphon, slowing the spread of disease, raising happiness and taxation efficiency, etc.
"Burden of time" causes -everyone- in the world to age extraordinarily quickly.
Ideas like this, and perhaps playing into Death as an aspect and champion of natural growth and justice, the passage of time, the judge and executioner, rather than a pure malevolence that wants to replace humanity with the walking dead... that angle might result in a more interesting Great Old One.
After all, Death created time to grow the things it would kill. When the world is ash and everything is dead, death has defeated itself.
Death is a large penalty in That Which Sleeps, losing population means less resources, less heroes, and even worse less men to raise to arms for war. We do have many death-centric rituals, but worst of all are the abilities in the Old One's ability tree - the world slowly crumbles as the dead rise and strike out at every point of interest throughout the world. Such a fun way to see the world fall, but I do agree with birdy51 that we want to focus on tactical countermeasures - while the Old One's abilities go to work Agents will act to hasten the spread of death or to prevent those who would work against it.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 12, 2014, 04:59:24 pm
Nurgle is another weird one. He's actually a god of life, it's just that humans aren't really the form of life he loves. Microbes outnumber humans trillions to one, were here before us, and will be here after us. What else would a god of life love?
A really obscure one is Philipp Mainlander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Mainl%C3%A4nder) (the pessimist's pessimist) 's God, who committed suicide by disintegrating his substance into creation and thus imbuing it with the Will to Die which he saw as the core driving force of existence. When everything in the universe has killed itself God's suicide will be complete.
That's a weird one but it shows how it's totally reasonable to have a god whose ultimate goal involves self-destruction. What death is more powerful and more final than that of death itself?
Now I'm wanting a god that makes people commit mass suicide.
Post by: birdy51 on October 12, 2014, 05:07:55 pm
At the very least, he may make a thematic Rival Old One.
Post by: thepodger on October 12, 2014, 05:13:11 pm
I have a bad habit of hitting post, then doubling the scope of the post as an edit that nobody ends up reading haha
After all, Death created time to grow the things it would kill. When the world is ash and everything is dead, death has defeated itself.
Death's agents, rather than grow ever more powerful, should opt to "join their master" once they've become true disciples. His greatest servants become the soil which will grow the food that will feed his disciples that will become the soil...
Death should revile healing and the sciences.
Death should view the undead as an abomination.
Death has no enemies, nor does it play favorites. It will take you no matter how much you love it or how much you hate it.
It's win state is the undoing of the sciences, the return of mankind to its natural state of savagery, beasts that eat and sleep and shit and procreate. To break man's yoke over nature, arrest its dominion over the course natural law.
Post by: birdy51 on October 12, 2014, 05:39:36 pm
Basically... When do you want to plant seeds?
Here's a thought. Giving the God of Death an ability that kills off something that is inhibiting the growth of towns and cities. In a farming sense, it is tending and fertilizing the crop. Killing off Locusts that are eating the local wheat farms allows for a surplus of food, which in turn boosts that population. Fertilizing the fields with Death. Then, when Death finally chooses to "reap" the seeds that he has sown, he'll have a harder job of it do in a large part to the fact that there is a larger population, but his yield is much greater. His reward for helping a city to grow is now that there are a lot more people in that city that are going to die.
Malicious and underhanded.
Post by: thepodger on October 12, 2014, 05:44:11 pm
Death seeks the quickening. Everything so busy growing, screwing, and dying, that they don't have time to move out of the caves and start developing medicine and culture.
Human mayflies. Culture is idolatry, medicine and science are outright defiance.
Post by: Jalak on October 12, 2014, 05:59:57 pm
Post by: Zangi on October 12, 2014, 07:37:23 pm
Here's a thought. Giving the God of Death an ability that kills off something that is inhibiting the growth of towns and cities. In a farming sense, it is tending and fertilizing the crop. Killing off Locusts that are eating the local wheat farms allows for a surplus of food, which in turn boosts that population. Fertilizing the fields with Death. Then, when Death finally chooses to "reap" the seeds that he has sown, he'll have a harder job of it do in a large part to the fact that there is a larger population, but his yield is much greater. His reward for helping a city to grow is now that there are a lot more people in that city that are going to die.I dub thee Farmer Death.
Farmer Death - The reason for its being...
Old One who's power is replenished and augmented by the death of the sentient creatures scurrying across land, be their individual ends from violence or nature. It is naturally at odds with the Old Ones who's actions would bring an actual end to all those sentient creatures.
It also gains a significant boost to its powers when masses of sentient creatures die within a short period of time. In comparison, a single large city(of 50k for example) being put to the sword would bring significantly more power then 50k deaths over a year's time.
Where the concept of Farmer Death raising up the population of a POI only to have its inhabitants wiped out comes in.
Exactly! And that's the kind of thing that makes for fun mechanics and abilities that avoid the typical undead zombie apocalypse snowball.I dub thee Back-to-Nature Death.
Death seeks the quickening. Everything so busy growing, screwing, and dying, that they don't have time to move out of the caves and start developing medicine and culture.
Human mayflies. Culture is idolatry, medicine and science are outright defiance.
Back-to-Nature Death - The motivation, the goal...
This Old One dislikes science, medicine and knowledge. It seeks its destruction, for whatever reason. Its armies and agents may be used to destroy centers of knowledge... to kill those who could pass on such knowledge. To destroy possible points of past knowledge. To bring the sentient creatures back to where they naturally belong. In mud huts or whatever.
Well, if there is a mechanic to destroy and kill enough to send the little people back to the tribal stage...
I'd mix Farmer Death and Back-to-Nature Death together. It would be like some mix of a luddite/hippie and death. Mechanically, it'll have options where it can infiltrate governments and convince the heads to set-up policies that suppress technological/knowledge progress. Or support barbarian tribals in their looting of the civilized world, if they would also destroy knowledge centers when they come upon it. (Unite the tribes against civilization?)
Post by: ventuswings on October 12, 2014, 08:09:39 pm
The idea is that if you decide to pull out the "zombie apocalypse" card early, there won't be enough fuel in the tank to sustain it. This could further be augmented by having zombie hordes be very weak against God & religious supporters, so either weakening religious institutions or establishing enough strength via "smart harvesting" is important before actively revealing oneself.
Post by: ventuswings on October 12, 2014, 08:12:04 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 12, 2014, 08:22:47 pm
Post by: GobbieMarauder on October 12, 2014, 08:27:39 pm
The biggest issue with that, though, is convincing a player that making their ultimate enemy stronger is worth the time and effort required when they could possibly get the same results by trying to kill everyone now. I suppose one way you could motivate the player to go down that route would be that some of their more powerful rituals cannot to be used (or at least used effectively) unless there is some sort of status effect on a certain number of POI's that can only brought on by casting another, earlier ritual.A passive that any POI under the effects of one of your positive boons is more likely to divert their religion to you - after all, you're keeping the people happy, healthy, and well-fed, surely you are a merciful god. In other words, Unitologists.
Post by: birdy51 on October 12, 2014, 08:39:15 pm
So... Set em up and knock em down. When you stop helping them and produce a blight, disorder spreads quickly and rapidly. Which will let Death subvert smaller villages with ease while the capital deals with famine. But in turn... Enemies do become stronger, which counters death just killing everything. It's both intuitive and counterintuitive at the same time!
Flaws are beautiful!
Post by: rylen on October 12, 2014, 09:04:11 pm
Choice: What bound death?
"You are a force. An essence. The ultimate telos, or goal, of all living things. But they found ways to constrain you. And until that chain is broken, you are limited."
Option: Towers of Life
Honking big magic artifacts that make some death powers more expensive, noticeable, or otherwise inconvenient within a large radius. There used to be a bunch of them. Part of your release comes from several falling into disrepair or being cannibalized for other magic-style purposes. They could be directly attacked; a difficult and revealing choice. Or, you could convince nations to destroy them. Heroes, if they figure you out, will want to repair as many as they can.
(I'm reading Glen Cook's Black Company and this is a ref to the Barrowlands. Also Watt-Evans' Vondish Ambassador.)
Option: Order(s) of the Secret Name
Those who bound you were not content to seal you away and frustrate you. They branded you and wrote spells to keep you out for any who know the brands. That knowledge still persists though the guards are scattered and fractious. Similar to the above, though keyed off the guild system instead of POIs. Gives the AI a leg up on fighting you if you don't get this suppressed before going public. You can start throwing things around immediately, but it is extra dangerous. I trace this to the ancient practice of wearing amulets and inscribing runes to keep hostile presences away.
Option: The Dance of Life and Death
You were never understood. Your goal was never THE end but each end. Deaths, many deaths, at a time of your choosing. Perhaps you would nearly fast between them, but that made the gorging all the richer. Get a variant Old One who requires a large number of deaths at a single time to unlock new abilities and fast power recharges. You were bound by interruptions in the dance and will need an ever increasing body count (chained combos are better than individuals) to again follow the steps. Playing this version may be difficult because careful timing is important. This is my attempt to write in Farmer Death.
Option: Death of the Mind
You object most not to things that crawl or grow but to those that think. Knowledge, any awareness, is an irritant. Questions are even worse. Your peers bound you by putting thought behind so many eyes. Only when they cease looking will you find peace. This is my attempt at the Back-to-Nature death. I think it wanders a bit too far from the Death God concept to really belong here.
Option: Strangled by the Puppets Strings
You wanted motion without life but your children betrayed you and pulled you down. You are again free to raise your family, but if you do not tend them carefully, comfort their needs, and discipline them properly, they will turn on you. This is a straightforward undead raising death god. But making too many undead, too quickly, spawns undead heroes. And some of those will oppose you.
Another option or two would be good. These are the ones I've can see.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 12:59:22 am
Post by: Xantalos on October 13, 2014, 02:16:37 am
Post by: Mithras on October 13, 2014, 02:37:39 am
Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"
Post by: lemon10 on October 13, 2014, 03:21:11 am
My idea is an old one that is only able to gain a small amount of power within any individual cycle and could only stay awake for a limited time (which increases with every cycle) without causing yourself harm. Over multiple cycles you would slowly get stronger, and once you free yourself from the seal you would be permanently awakened.
One power tree would be unless within any single cycle, but would give you powers that would be useful over longer time periods.
For example:
1) A power that corrupts the seed/womb of (captured?) individuals. It would be useless in the current cycle, but it would allow you to corrupt their descendants much easier when you run into them in a later cycle. Or it could be something more interesting, making their descendants passively weaker/more cowardly, or simply make them more and more monstrous with each passing generation. Or make them turn all into monsters (with a strength based upon how many generations its been) when you activate a trigger.
2) Freeze some agents/corrupted heroes/captured individuals in hibernation until you awaken and unfreeze them. Your agents would be able to rejoin you at their current power (allowing you to keep some strong agents for another cycle), while kings that waken later could cause chaos in the nation they used to rule (but dont anymore due to being dead for hundreds of years. You can freeze as many agents as you want, but there is a significant cooldown between each use, which means that to freeze many agents you would have to take the first of them out of action long before you go back to sleep.
3) Curse a nation, making their actions worse on average. This would take a long time to take effect, and while you are awake it would be unobtrusive and minor, but over the centuries the game runs in endless mode it could have a pretty huge effect, and could even result in the eventual destruction of the nation (via civil war or conquest) where it would have otherwise have thrived. You can only curse one nation at once.
4) Whisper into the mind of immortals as you sleeps, corrupting them over the centuries. Obviously wouldnt work with rival old ones or Those That Remain, but dragons (if they are in), elves, and monstrous immortals would be significant targets. The ability must be targeted before you go to back to sleep.
5+) ???
The other power tree would give you shorter term powers which you would use while you are awake. Im not quite sure what this tree would consist of, although my current thoughts of it mainly consist of it largely revolving around sleep. For example:
1) Puts a target into an enchanted sleep for 5-10 turns after a few turn delay.
2) Prevents the target from sleeping. When used on heroes it slowly driving them insane (but doesn't corrupt them). When used on agents it increases their efficiency, increasing the speed at which they complete rituals and travel by 10-20%.
3) Temporarily awaken the sleeping elemental forces in an area, creating an earthquake/tornado/volcanic eruption/flood depending on the primary elemental force nearby.
4+) ???
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 13, 2014, 10:22:04 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 01:08:07 pm
Failbetter Games, they of Echo Bazaar/Fallen London and Sunless Seas, just recced That Which Sleeps on Facebook. That should provide a nice little boost.
I have long been a fan of Fallen London, this is great news for us.
With the addition of the endless mode, Ive been thinking about a cyclical old one. With standard old ones the goal seems to be to gain as much power as you possibly can in a single attempt, and if you really need to go back to sleep or you get sealed then you take another chance later.
My idea is an old one that is only able to gain a small amount of power within any individual cycle and could only stay awake for a limited time (which increases with every cycle) without causing yourself harm. Over multiple cycles you would slowly get stronger, and once you free yourself from the seal you would be permanently awakened.
One power tree would be unless within any single cycle, but would give you powers that would be useful over longer time periods.
For example:
1) A power that corrupts the seed/womb of (captured?) individuals. It would be useless in the current cycle, but it would allow you to corrupt their descendants much easier when you run into them in a later cycle. Or it could be something more interesting, making their descendants passively weaker/more cowardly, or simply make them more and more monstrous with each passing generation. Or make them turn all into monsters (with a strength based upon how many generations its been) when you activate a trigger.
2) Freeze some agents/corrupted heroes/captured individuals in hibernation until you awaken and unfreeze them. Your agents would be able to rejoin you at their current power (allowing you to keep some strong agents for another cycle), while kings that waken later could cause chaos in the nation they used to rule (but dont anymore due to being dead for hundreds of years. You can freeze as many agents as you want, but there is a significant cooldown between each use, which means that to freeze many agents you would have to take the first of them out of action long before you go back to sleep.
3) Curse a nation, making their actions worse on average. This would take a long time to take effect, and while you are awake it would be unobtrusive and minor, but over the centuries the game runs in endless mode it could have a pretty huge effect, and could even result in the eventual destruction of the nation (via civil war or conquest) where it would have otherwise have thrived. You can only curse one nation at once.
4) Whisper into the mind of immortals as you sleeps, corrupting them over the centuries. Obviously wouldnt work with rival old ones or Those That Remain, but dragons (if they are in), elves, and monstrous immortals would be significant targets. The ability must be targeted before you go to back to sleep.
5+) ???
The other power tree would give you shorter term powers which you would use while you are awake. Im not quite sure what this tree would consist of, although my current thoughts of it mainly consist of it largely revolving around sleep. For example:
1) Puts a target into an enchanted sleep for 5-10 turns after a few turn delay.
2) Prevents the target from sleeping. When used on heroes it slowly driving them insane (but doesn't corrupt them). When used on agents it increases their efficiency, increasing the speed at which they complete rituals and travel by 10-20%.
3) Temporarily awaken the sleeping elemental forces in an area, creating an earthquake/tornado/volcanic eruption/flood depending on the primary elemental force nearby.
4+) ???
Take a look at our most recent update, the Genealogical Generation segment would be how we represent vast passages of time - allowing you to implement the kind of corruption over time that you are suggesting. We have the Generation dumping out to a Scenario File, and if we can create a reasonable import from Scenario to Generation we could support cycles of time passing between plays.
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 01:08:54 pm
Failbetter Games, they of Echo Bazaar/Fallen London and Sunless Seas, just recced That Which Sleeps on Facebook. That should provide a nice little boost.
Hopefully that will be enough to nudge TWS past the $53k mark.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 01:10:31 pm
If you're married to the god of death being the god of undeath then a solution may be to de couple death from undeath. Thematically your awakening is breaking down the gates of the underworld, the more ancient power you have the more undead you have at your disposal. However, since the souls of the dead are pretty much infinite adding more souls to the underworld does not increase the number of undead avaliable to you, as they go straight to the underworld. This prevents your classic zombie horde but means you actually have a resource to manage rather than snowballing by creating your own resource doing what you're already supposed to do. It also opens up a couple of ritual ideas, an agent opening a second gate to the underworld would provide you with more undead to throw around but be comparatively easy for the heroes to close. An agent putting up a barrier between life and death would allow you to play as the old broken undead old one who snowballs for a while, but generate a massive quest, something that makes literally every hero turn up to try and stop it, drops clue tokens everywhere and makes your agent certain to be hunted down.
Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"
This is also a very interesting interpretation - part of the difficulty for me in introducing a concept of the underworld is I want to truly integrate it into the game - it also may trod a bit on the feet of the Gods. But I'm going to let this idea percolate for a bit, and see how it feels. I'm trying to purposefully not think about the Death God right now (because it's a tantalizing problem) so we can focus on more fundamental mechanics until we want to tackle him again, but it's good to try and figure out how these other implementations may work within our system.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on October 13, 2014, 01:17:55 pm
Quote
If you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!
Can I see their stat sheets? :x
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 01:19:22 pm
Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1014773)QuoteIf you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!
Can I see their stat sheets? :x
Give it naow.
Post by: Mithras on October 13, 2014, 02:17:05 pm
If you're married to the god of death being the god of undeath then a solution may be to de couple death from undeath. Thematically your awakening is breaking down the gates of the underworld, the more ancient power you have the more undead you have at your disposal. However, since the souls of the dead are pretty much infinite adding more souls to the underworld does not increase the number of undead avaliable to you, as they go straight to the underworld. This prevents your classic zombie horde but means you actually have a resource to manage rather than snowballing by creating your own resource doing what you're already supposed to do. It also opens up a couple of ritual ideas, an agent opening a second gate to the underworld would provide you with more undead to throw around but be comparatively easy for the heroes to close. An agent putting up a barrier between life and death would allow you to play as the old broken undead old one who snowballs for a while, but generate a massive quest, something that makes literally every hero turn up to try and stop it, drops clue tokens everywhere and makes your agent certain to be hunted down.
Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"
This is also a very interesting interpretation - part of the difficulty for me in introducing a concept of the underworld is I want to truly integrate it into the game - it also may trod a bit on the feet of the Gods. But I'm going to let this idea percolate for a bit, and see how it feels. I'm trying to purposefully not think about the Death God right now (because it's a tantalizing problem) so we can focus on more fundamental mechanics until we want to tackle him again, but it's good to try and figure out how these other implementations may work within our system.
While I understand that at this point your time is much better spent elsewhere I thought it might be important to stress that the important part of the idea is to decouple the number of corpses in the world from the power of the old one, why this is the case (theme) and how this is the case (mechanics) is somewhat beyond my ability to speculate- though of course I tried!
Post by: Zangi on October 13, 2014, 03:44:02 pm
Well, this interpretation of Death is basically something like a necromancer I assume. It is kinda generic and not 'Old One' material... as its objectives of killing everything for *insert generic death god/thing reason* is all there is to it...If you're married to the god of death being the god of undeath then a solution may be to de couple death from undeath. Thematically your awakening is breaking down the gates of the underworld, the more ancient power you have the more undead you have at your disposal. However, since the souls of the dead are pretty much infinite adding more souls to the underworld does not increase the number of undead avaliable to you, as they go straight to the underworld. This prevents your classic zombie horde but means you actually have a resource to manage rather than snowballing by creating your own resource doing what you're already supposed to do. It also opens up a couple of ritual ideas, an agent opening a second gate to the underworld would provide you with more undead to throw around but be comparatively easy for the heroes to close. An agent putting up a barrier between life and death would allow you to play as the old broken undead old one who snowballs for a while, but generate a massive quest, something that makes literally every hero turn up to try and stop it, drops clue tokens everywhere and makes your agent certain to be hunted down.
Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"
This is also a very interesting interpretation - part of the difficulty for me in introducing a concept of the underworld is I want to truly integrate it into the game - it also may trod a bit on the feet of the Gods. But I'm going to let this idea percolate for a bit, and see how it feels. I'm trying to purposefully not think about the Death God right now (because it's a tantalizing problem) so we can focus on more fundamental mechanics until we want to tackle him again, but it's good to try and figure out how these other implementations may work within our system.
While I understand that at this point your time is much better spent elsewhere I thought it might be important to stress that the important part of the idea is to decouple the number of corpses in the world from the power of the old one, why this is the case (theme) and how this is the case (mechanics) is somewhat beyond my ability to speculate- though of course I tried!
But if you insist, I agree with Mithras, decouple its eldritch powers from things dying.
If there is an issue of balance, generic undead made from non-combatants are near worthless fodder that will basically be a waste of Mana(or whatever you use), most likely a last ditch effort, use em to screen an agent's escape or something. If they have no experience in fighting during their life, their afterlife will be the same.
A random dead peasant isn't miraculously going to get a sword or even armor out of nowhere either. Maybe they can come with a pitchfork or some other improvised weapon. (Add in the restriction that undead troops cannot get better/gain experience.)
Nor can the undead be easily fixed. Broken bones are broken bones, patching that together is basically life magic, most likely an affront to Death. So even if you do try to fix the dead, you and yours won't be proficient at it... Goes with the idea that blunt weapons are indeed, super effective against the undead, break their bones and they won't come back up.
Otherwise, it is pretty much generic snowballing of an ever big horde of undead that only ever fights enemies weaker then itself and comes out even stronger each time as it both 'heals' its own and recruits the recently dead fighters, till it hits the tipping point. Well, that'll still happen, but it slows it down significantly...
Meh, Necromancer/Underworld Death isn't really interesting as Farmer Death and Back-to-Nature Death.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2014, 03:53:33 pm
Ooh, another interesting one. The Sleepers of Avarrach in that Infinity online TCG. An advanced civilization falls prey to some cyborganic infection that turns the entire population into techno-zombies. The still-sapient shepherds of the infection can open dimensional rifts. Instead of having the traditional exponentially accelerating cycle of infection you've got rifts opening up to a dimension that's already fallen, billions of zombies trying to pour their way through.
I'm not making serious suggestions, I'm just throwing stuff at the wall.
Another thing that caught my fancy is the totally badass super-stylized picts (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CWKBOUE9QIo/maxresdefault.jpg) from Ryse. That kind of thing would make a fun red entity for a Roman game. Crazy-ass barbarians from the deepest darkest ancient woods with wicker men rituals and shit.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 04:39:30 pm
Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1014773)QuoteIf you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!
Can I see their stat sheets? :x
Give it naow.
Oh yeah interest - you want the JSON dump or do you want some screenshots of their in-game description and stats?
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 04:41:20 pm
Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1014773)QuoteIf you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!
Can I see their stat sheets? :x
Give it naow.
Oh yeah interest - you want the JSON dump or do you want some screenshots of their in-game description and stats?
Sexy screen shots plox.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 04:47:33 pm
Well, this interpretation of Death is basically something like a necromancer I assume. It is kinda generic and not 'Old One' material... as its objectives of killing everything for *insert generic death god/thing reason* is all there is to it...
But if you insist, I agree with Mithras, decouple its eldritch powers from things dying.
If there is an issue of balance, generic undead made from non-combatants are near worthless fodder that will basically be a waste of Mana(or whatever you use), most likely a last ditch effort, use em to screen an agent's escape or something. If they have no experience in fighting during their life, their afterlife will be the same.
A random dead peasant isn't miraculously going to get a sword or even armor out of nowhere either. Maybe they can come with a pitchfork or some other improvised weapon. (Add in the restriction that undead troops cannot get better/gain experience.)
Nor can the undead be easily fixed. Broken bones are broken bones, patching that together is basically life magic, most likely an affront to Death. So even if you do try to fix the dead, you and yours won't be proficient at it... Goes with the idea that blunt weapons are indeed, super effective against the undead, break their bones and they won't come back up.
Otherwise, it is pretty much generic snowballing of an ever big horde of undead that only ever fights enemies weaker then itself and comes out even stronger each time as it both 'heals' its own and recruits the recently dead fighters, till it hits the tipping point. Well, that'll still happen, but it slows it down significantly...
Meh, Necromancer/Underworld Death isn't really interesting as Farmer Death and Back-to-Nature Death.
I don't think you will be disappointed with our Lord of Death, he isn't as one-note as this dialogue may lead you to believe. He has the most unique "imbues", being able to turn any Agent into the undead - and his coupled contagion abilities force the world to take drastic measure to counteract it. Don't think of him as a necromancer - he is negation of life, entropy, and his own death would be the ultimate fulfillment of his desires.
That being said, a lot of the concepts being discussed here, especially seeing Death as an aspect of Life, are either rolled into Rival Old Ones or are part of our cut Old Ones that may or may not be added later in the game. We do plan to allow a community vote on one of the cut Old Ones if we reach a certain new stretch goal (I think we have a quick update we'll be posting on that tonight).
Post by: ventuswings on October 13, 2014, 05:20:37 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 06:00:40 pm
Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.
We actually go back and modify them quite a bit based on feedback and new questions received - we're being very... conservative with videos now because the last two videos that went up we saw a not insignificant amount of de-pledging. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that we're showing off some very raw assets, especially considering updates without videos see no de-pledging - so people aren't taking the time to read that these are still alpha/beta assets and NOT the new updated graphics. We are definitely posting Parts 2 and 3 this week, but we may just post the other Dev Logs onto youtube (with links here), I think they are mostly for the forum audiences as you guys are the people most interested in reviewing mechanics.
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 06:08:58 pm
Maybe they saw the anime placeholders and had the same reaction I did.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 06:11:36 pm
Ach, that's brutal. De-pledging? I may want better graphics but they're not a requirement of me liking the game.
Maybe they saw the anime placeholders and had the same reaction I did.
Yeah, it's been a point of confusion for us - the first time we assumed it was just an aberration but then the second time (and with other updates) it was a pretty clear correlation. I'm the kind of person that wants to be fully transparent and just stream everything I do, but if my mumbling over alpha assets is going to cost us a stretch goal I'd rather not.
However, once the KS is over we intend to stick to at the minimum a 15 minute dev log a week (barring the Holidays)
Post by: rylen on October 13, 2014, 06:18:45 pm
De-pledging? I'd been anxious for the next dev log but I fully understand the delay.
Post by: nenjin on October 13, 2014, 06:25:08 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 13, 2014, 06:37:38 pm
Depending on how shambling the undead are, some might not want to stick with the Old One and its necromancers. Any chance of undead refugees? A bit like Fallout's ghouls or Diskworld's Reg Shoe and his cohort. It strikes me as one more interesting thing for the various nations to deal with an an interesting angle for the player to mess with.
De-pledging? I'd been anxious for the next dev log but I fully understand the delay.
Absolutely - we have a very interesting method for handling the "righteous undead". They can go as far as founding a government and joining the Alliance to defeat you, best that you keep them firmly in hand.
It's interesting in that I've never heard a dev mention it, and we've had quite a few here by now talking as they progress through their Kickstarter. I'm sure it's a case of "best foot forward" and all that, but still. That's a under-discussed datapoint in Kickstarters I'd be interested to see more about. You can only make correlations as there's not rigorous detail in the data about why they do it....but it'd still be interesting to know more about what makes people change their mind on a pledge. I've always thought of most KS backers as "True Believers", in that once they give their money, they're committed. I guess that's not really the case (especially if you're part of the "Kickstarter as a pre-order system" camp.)
In private conversation other devs have talked about it with us, but I notice it is conspicuously absent from any postmortems (with a few exceptions). We're going to try and write up a brutally honest postmortem at the end of this.
Post by: Nick K on October 13, 2014, 06:46:38 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on October 14, 2014, 12:57:10 am
Basically, as an Old One, it would be a tragic story more than a sinister one, since the god accidentally destroys everything it touches in its attempt to claim what is rightfully his. A slightly retarded, quite insane fallen god with a lot of power who hates all the "living gods" for originally cheating him of his fair share and imprisoning him for all eternity.
Edit: Think of it as a horror movie character living in a basement filled with dolls, then treating those dolls as his family. Or more like some monsterous brute kidnapping people, taking them to his basement and making them act like his family. At the same time creepy and terrible, but tragic in its own way. Then give that brute the power to try and make everyone in the world his dolls, without the understanding to realize it would destroy the world he so badly wants to belong to.
Post by: Darkmere on October 14, 2014, 01:55:41 am
Or make it a Paul Muad'dib thing, too, I guess. I like Odin better than the Kwisatz-Haderach though.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 14, 2014, 03:18:51 am
Graphics: I'm really interested in them almost just for this because the graphical upgrades seem like they will enhance gameplay. If i'm able at a glance to tell what goes wrong/right, how much a town is damaged without having to go on it it makes for faster decision making. Plus, before taking action i can always look in depth at the PoI and its surroundings, graphical cues just allow me to do a rough estimate of how the things are going much quicker. I understand you already had this in game (looking at the video i can see icons showing hunger or some animations for war/plague) but enhancing that aspect and providing more nuances can only help (and if it does also look awesome, great!)
The last aspect of these graphical enhancements that makes me want them is that it will allow for better modding too. I have absolutely no doubt we will see very interesting fan content being created and if that can be supported by better/more variation in stock graphics, i'm all for it.
Now as for new agents/races/Old one, obviously i am very interested at seeing what other twisted thing we can unleash on the world. As for the first new agent poll (getting ahead of the funding but well, 9K$ more seems a pretty reasonable guess as to how high the funding will go), I must say i am the most interested by the Biomancer (Creating Uruk-Hais? Mutating dogs into zerglings? yes please!), then the False One.
I felt like the Devourer was not really well shown. While i have a pretty solid idea as to how the two other will play out, i have no idea on how he will. And, while i can already imagine some really interesting plays emerging with the false one and the biomancer all i can see with the devourer is a kind of pet relationship, tending to him when he is weak, feeding him and then waiting to unleash him on my fated enemy while hoping he succeeds. Now what would make him interesting is if he had the possibilty to overthrow you if you feed him too much (like using him to defeat an enemy old one for example). Is it too early too discuss this or do you have a bit more to share on him?
Post by: ERICdb on October 14, 2014, 06:54:44 am
Yeah, it's been a point of confusion for us - the first time we assumed it was just an aberration but then the second time (and with other updates) it was a pretty clear correlation. I'm the kind of person that wants to be fully transparent and just stream everything I do, but if my mumbling over alpha assets is going to cost us a stretch goal I'd rather not.
However, once the KS is over we intend to stick to at the minimum a 15 minute dev log a week (barring the Holidays)
I believe that those that de-pledge are actually from the lowest tiers. For those that like the genre, they might think that it's a good game for 10$, but then as they notice the videos and the place-holder arts they flee like cowards. Those aren't actually fully interested in the game since a little bit of investigation leads to the knowledge that a lot of things are temporarily. It's like a perfect bet where you can win something quite good without risking much, but if they notice something strange they instantly drop out of the game.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 14, 2014, 07:36:42 am
New stretch goals:
Graphics: I'm really interested in them almost just for this because the graphical upgrades seem like they will enhance gameplay. If i'm able at a glance to tell what goes wrong/right, how much a town is damaged without having to go on it it makes for faster decision making. Plus, before taking action i can always look in depth at the PoI and its surroundings, graphical cues just allow me to do a rough estimate of how the things are going much quicker. I understand you already had this in game (looking at the video i can see icons showing hunger or some animations for war/plague) but enhancing that aspect and providing more nuances can only help (and if it does also look awesome, great!)
The last aspect of these graphical enhancements that makes me want them is that it will allow for better modding too. I have absolutely no doubt we will see very interesting fan content being created and if that can be supported by better/more variation in stock graphics, i'm all for it.
Now as for new agents/races/Old one, obviously i am very interested at seeing what other twisted thing we can unleash on the world. As for the first new agent poll (getting ahead of the funding but well, 9K$ more seems a pretty reasonable guess as to how high the funding will go), I must say i am the most interested by the Biomancer (Creating Uruk-Hais? Mutating dogs into zerglings? yes please!), then the False One.
I felt like the Devourer was not really well shown. While i have a pretty solid idea as to how the two other will play out, i have no idea on how he will. And, while i can already imagine some really interesting plays emerging with the false one and the biomancer all i can see with the devourer is a kind of pet relationship, tending to him when he is weak, feeding him and then waiting to unleash him on my fated enemy while hoping he succeeds. Now what would make him interesting is if he had the possibilty to overthrow you if you feed him too much (like using him to defeat an enemy old one for example). Is it too early too discuss this or do you have a bit more to share on him?
I completely agree with the graphical element - I would love to see this kind of feedback on the map. Being able to just "at a glance" see the state of the world is a huge benefit to the type of grand strategy game where you are equally invested throughout the world. I also think it's a borderline prerequisite to making the much larger maps feasible.
Absolutely! These agents were all fully specced out months but after determining the work it would be to get them into the game they were cut, so we can talk about them at all in depth. The Devourer begins weak, and in a hungered state - when hungered he is difficult to control and may simply attack the next tier of power near him. So wherever you "summon him" he will immediately attack the town and claim a random citizen. He will then slowly begin to crave the next tier up, these tiers extend very far upward - in the end he can even threaten the gods with a divine mealtime. However, this is balanced out by his only being able to target each tier once - then he must find a greater feast. You can temper this rise with some care, allowing the Devourer to implant the artifact from the stars into a more powerful creature and slowly siphon off its energy, giving some of it to yourself instead. This allows him to tactically weaken a Rival Old One or God for you to claim their power.
And yes, he may try and eat you. Delicious....
Post by: Sartain on October 14, 2014, 08:33:38 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 14, 2014, 09:15:51 am
The end product could be released and Let's Played normally - I imagine people would be rooting for their own heroes and nations every time it was played and generally interested in seeing how their creations interact.
Post by: ventuswings on October 14, 2014, 11:13:41 am
Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.
We actually go back and modify them quite a bit based on feedback and new questions received - we're being very... conservative with videos now because the last two videos that went up we saw a not insignificant amount of de-pledging. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that we're showing off some very raw assets, especially considering updates without videos see no de-pledging - so people aren't taking the time to read that these are still alpha/beta assets and NOT the new updated graphics. We are definitely posting Parts 2 and 3 this week, but we may just post the other Dev Logs onto youtube (with links here), I think they are mostly for the forum audiences as you guys are the people most interested in reviewing mechanics.
That is unfortunate. If it's of any condolence, the initial three dev log videos had huge influence on me getting interested in the game, and I sincerely hope you can at least upload the rest as private and only post links here or something; my intent is to pledge for Beta Tester tier but my plan was to wait for rest of the videos before doing so. Of course I can afford to wait if the Paypal donation at your website is going to be open longer than the Kickstarter, but I do not recall any specific date and I rather avoid the uncertainty.
Post by: Jalak on October 14, 2014, 11:17:15 am
That said, if the money were to stop rolling in after the generation goal is met, what happens to those newer ones? Are we going to have to contend with a a relatively static map (at least compared to its full potential) or would these eventually find a way in way after the game actually comes out?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 14, 2014, 03:13:12 pm
Something I'm confused about when it comes to kickstarters is how important the initial boost of money into the stretch goals actually are, and what happens to these stretch goals if the money isn't made up for it. I honestly expected the money to peter out around the old one stretch goal and maybe get to the endless mode near the third week, not for it to explode like it did.
That said, if the money were to stop rolling in after the generation goal is met, what happens to those newer ones? Are we going to have to contend with a a relatively static map (at least compared to its full potential) or would these eventually find a way in way after the game actually comes out?
It's tough to say "full potential" about the map because despite how successful our Kickstarter has been relative to how much we asked for, we are still looking for "low-hanging fruit" as much as possible with our assets. I am sure that with the amount we have raised we will make a perfectly functional map that now also embraces the aesthetic of the game and has a lot of great mechanics that otherwise would not have been possible. Still, there's always room for improvement - but we are lucky enough that the only improvements we'd be adding are now purely cosmetic. The world will be close to living enough already without having trade routes or refugees, even if that might be a nice addition.
As for stretching a dollar to encompass these changes, I would imagine we might be able to get a few of the really powerful rituals into a more appropriate form - with the map overhaul the "Flying Citadel as an icon" is a little incongruous.
Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.
We actually go back and modify them quite a bit based on feedback and new questions received - we're being very... conservative with videos now because the last two videos that went up we saw a not insignificant amount of de-pledging. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that we're showing off some very raw assets, especially considering updates without videos see no de-pledging - so people aren't taking the time to read that these are still alpha/beta assets and NOT the new updated graphics. We are definitely posting Parts 2 and 3 this week, but we may just post the other Dev Logs onto youtube (with links here), I think they are mostly for the forum audiences as you guys are the people most interested in reviewing mechanics.
That is unfortunate. If it's of any condolence, the initial three dev log videos had huge influence on me getting interested in the game, and I sincerely hope you can at least upload the rest as private and only post links here or something; my intent is to pledge for Beta Tester tier but my plan was to wait for rest of the videos before doing so. Of course I can afford to wait if the Paypal donation at your website is going to be open longer than the Kickstarter, but I do not recall any specific date and I rather avoid the uncertainty.
We'll keep the PayPal donations up until the Beta, so don't feel the need to jump in until you're comfortable. If you subscribe to our mailing list we'll send out a "list chance for PayPal" email before we shut it down. You can sign up at www.kingdinosaurgames.com.
Post by: Romanul on October 14, 2014, 03:29:28 pm
Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.
We actually go back and modify them quite a bit based on feedback and new questions received - we're being very... conservative with videos now because the last two videos that went up we saw a not insignificant amount of de-pledging. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that we're showing off some very raw assets, especially considering updates without videos see no de-pledging - so people aren't taking the time to read that these are still alpha/beta assets and NOT the new updated graphics. We are definitely posting Parts 2 and 3 this week, but we may just post the other Dev Logs onto youtube (with links here), I think they are mostly for the forum audiences as you guys are the people most interested in reviewing mechanics.
That is unfortunate. If it's of any condolence, the initial three dev log videos had huge influence on me getting interested in the game, and I sincerely hope you can at least upload the rest as private and only post links here or something; my intent is to pledge for Beta Tester tier but my plan was to wait for rest of the videos before doing so. Of course I can afford to wait if the Paypal donation at your website is going to be open longer than the Kickstarter, but I do not recall any specific date and I rather avoid the uncertainty.
Same here, the trailer made me pledge 10$. What really made me go a full 50$ (which is the huge for me, the most I paid for a game) were the dev logs video. I would have given even more if I had the money (which sadly, I do not).
Post by: dennislp3 on October 14, 2014, 03:36:38 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 14, 2014, 03:42:04 pm
Also, since the endless simulation is now in, do you plan on having agents being able to level up like heroes (though through a different set rules), since they now have a reason, story wise, to grow older, wiser and more experienced within the now much longer time-frame of the game?
Post by: StupidElves on October 14, 2014, 03:48:46 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 14, 2014, 05:44:04 pm
I was just reading through the reddit forum and saw an interesting proposal; that the portraits of the heroes be dynamically generated with a simple set of hair, eyes, armour, colour scheme (skin and clothing) and whatnot that change during the course of the game to reflect whatever "journey" that hero has been going through. A mercenary that's been through a lot of battles and has lost faith (will) will have scars and ruined armour and whatnot. What are your thoughts on a system like that?
Also, since the endless simulation is now in, do you plan on having agents being able to level up like heroes (though through a different set rules), since they now have a reason, story wise, to grow older, wiser and more experienced within the now much longer time-frame of the game?
It's actually very expensive to get that kind of dynamic solution working right and not looking very plain - the anime style for instance is one of the ways to accomplish that on a reasonable budget. If you're trying to accomplish that effect it makes sense to make the transition to 3D, at that point the amount of money you're paying would get you high quality textured models that are themselves customizable. With all that being said, we'll probably be stick with class-specific 2D painted portraits - we're still trying to get the most "bang for the buck" with the money coming in and I don't think it would make sense for the reasons given.
We still want to stick with Agents having their own separate path to empowerment - even though they don't level up through experience like Heroes do you will have HIGHLY customized agents after the many decades they are in your service - gaining decorations for battle, infiltrating and gaining traits from guilds and orders, gaining powerful artifacts, and of course being imbued with Ancient Power.
Post by: Humaan on October 14, 2014, 10:59:41 pm
However, I am a bit curious though, on one thing. You have shown us the strength of early and mid game agents and their actions. My question is, what are those compared to the Old One itself? Would Baron Greywind in a (hypothetical) fight get his arse handed to him by the Old Ones themselves, once they awaken?
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 15, 2014, 12:59:17 am
Post by: i2amroy on October 15, 2014, 01:34:37 am
Post by: Cheeetar on October 15, 2014, 01:45:59 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 15, 2014, 08:21:50 am
Posting to say that I love the progress so far into the game on what we know. I actually have been working in the depths of my mind on the world building event, but regardless.
However, I am a bit curious though, on one thing. You have shown us the strength of early and mid game agents and their actions. My question is, what are those compared to the Old One itself? Would Baron Greywind in a (hypothetical) fight get his arse handed to him by the Old Ones themselves, once they awaken?
As powerful as the Baron is he wouldn't have a chance in a duel against even the weakest corporeal form of an Old One. Only a truly diverse group of powerful heroes has a chance at taking down the Old One at that sage, and many of their number would die in the attempt. The only exception is one Old One who can send out Avatars early on, these vary in strength depending on the incarnation and not indicative of the Old One's true form.
And, we just broke 53K! The last two days were amazing.
Pretty amazing! We really expected to limp to 6-8k on the first week, launch the demo around the end of Week 2, and that would give us the surge up to 15-20k. Instead, the idea of the game has really resonated with people - and having the stretch goals defined by the community helped get even more interest.
I would expect things to slow down a bit now, people really wanted to secure Procedural Generation and I am EXTREMELY happy to have it included in the game.
I've given in and backed this. I really admire how you're being so transparent and informative about your games development.
Thanks! It's the only way I know how to be - I'm very excited to be working with all of the enthusiastic backers to better define the game's aesthetic and refine the game-play.
Post by: SharpKris on October 15, 2014, 09:32:21 am
btw you should lower the music volume and up the voicing as it's hard to figure out what you're saying
Post by: Jalak on October 15, 2014, 09:58:03 am
just watched a few of the devlogs and i've gotta admit i'm very impressed!
btw you should lower the music volume and up the voicing as it's hard to figure out what you're saying
Yeah, that was pretty much the number one complaint with the videos. At least our criticisms were directed at technical errors rather then the content of the actual videos.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 15, 2014, 11:30:11 am
So what would happen if the "life goes on" goal is met but the other two aren't? I think it would look a bit odd if all those trade caravans, peaceful farmers and flourishing fields were to just "disappear" like they never existed when the shit hits the fan.
This point was raised by another backer as well - we wouldn't just cut off all art assets at a certain point, you would see diminishing trade over time, less happy farmers plowing their fields, etc. In addition, the wasteland that can be left behind by your conquest will be naturally desolate - though we wouldn't see slaves being shipped back to the mines it will still leave an impression at a glance.
Ideally we'll hit both goals and not have to worry about this, but I don't think there will be an issue with only the first goal being reached.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 15, 2014, 01:36:49 pm
That means a new scenario for all of us, yay!
I'm a little sad to see the additional agent go though, does he also get to create one?
This also puts us at 55,25K, a mere 2.75K away from the next stretch goal, which we should hit within a day or two if everything goes well.
Post by: ERICdb on October 15, 2014, 02:06:34 pm
Interesting news, someone from the 1K tier upped his pledge to the 3K tier!
That means a new scenario for all of us, yay!
I'm a little sad to see the additional agent go though, does he also get to create one?
This also puts us at 55,25K, a mere 2.75K away from the next stretch goal, which we should hit within a day or two if everything goes well.
OMG! Let's Praise The Sun together! This is getting even more exciting than before! The only thing this project needs is that we make sure we give great feedback during the beta phase, and with the current development of events I'm feeling comfortable to say it will! :P
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 15, 2014, 05:24:18 pm
Interesting news, someone from the 1K tier upped his pledge to the 3K tier!
That means a new scenario for all of us, yay!
I'm a little sad to see the additional agent go though, does he also get to create one?
This also puts us at 55,25K, a mere 2.75K away from the next stretch goal, which we should hit within a day or two if everything goes well.
That backer will still be able to create an Agent, so the count does not diminish.
Interesting news, someone from the 1K tier upped his pledge to the 3K tier!
That means a new scenario for all of us, yay!
I'm a little sad to see the additional agent go though, does he also get to create one?
This also puts us at 55,25K, a mere 2.75K away from the next stretch goal, which we should hit within a day or two if everything goes well.
OMG! Let's Praise The Sun together! This is getting even more exciting than before! The only thing this project needs is that we make sure we give great feedback during the beta phase, and with the current development of events I'm feeling comfortable to say it will! :P
Feedback will be critical even right after the Kickstarter, we're engaging with so many artists trying to decide on the approach and aesthetic of the map. Given the amount we have raised to overhaul it we can literally choose any style from popular strategy games.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2014, 05:36:20 pm
Like if it were done parchment-style with black ink everything then everything else would look weird, but we've already seen the fully topographic maps you guys did earlier and those were also jarring.
Current style reminds me of Dominions a lot.
Post by: Jalak on October 15, 2014, 05:41:08 pm
Personally I still really like the current design. It kind of has a hand-drawn aesthetic while still being terrain-ish (? Topographic? Displaying features as features rather than representations you'd see on a map, I dunno) enough that the rest of the art style doesn't look out of place.
Like if it were done parchment-style with black ink everything then everything else would look weird. It reminds me of Dominions a lot.
Plus it looks like one of the easiest styles to replicate during modding. With the whole part of the game devoted to being able to mod everything, that's kind of important. Hell, you could use a coloured in-version of that old-looking map of Middle-Earth and it would still fit (though good luck reading all the names of the places).
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2014, 06:18:22 pm
Post by: SharpKris on October 15, 2014, 06:55:00 pm
At the risk of encouraging too much crowd sourcing of opinions....it'd be swell if we could see your top picks on the visual style and vote on the one we think rocks the most.
+1 this, i think it would make the choosing allot easier
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 15, 2014, 07:22:38 pm
Personally I still really like the current design. It kind of has a hand-drawn aesthetic while still being terrain-ish (? Topographic? Displaying features as features rather than representations you'd see on a map, I dunno) enough that the rest of the art style doesn't look out of place.
Like if it were done parchment-style with black ink everything then everything else would look weird. It reminds me of Dominions a lot.
Plus it looks like one of the easiest styles to replicate during modding. With the whole part of the game devoted to being able to mod everything, that's kind of important. Hell, you could use a coloured in-version of that old-looking map of Middle-Earth and it would still fit (though good luck reading all the names of the places).
We will continue to support the current style - drag and drop mod functionality is very important to us. The new style will be very easy to work with as well, think along the lines of the Civ V map building. If we reach an impasse where one style must supersede the other for functionally we will discuss that with everyone before coming to any decision.
At the risk of encouraging too much crowd sourcing of opinions....it'd be swell if we could see your top picks on the visual style and vote on the one we think rocks the most.
We're releasing a build to Beta Backers and above very shortly after KS is released that is meant to test assets, we'll be working with them to figure out the best possible solution from the map down to the individual units. All other backers will be able to see the progress on the internal board where we can have an open debate on the different screenshots posted from various samples.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2014, 07:35:18 pm
Personally I still really like the current design. It kind of has a hand-drawn aesthetic while still being terrain-ish (? Topographic? Displaying features as features rather than representations you'd see on a map, I dunno) enough that the rest of the art style doesn't look out of place.
Like if it were done parchment-style with black ink everything then everything else would look weird. It reminds me of Dominions a lot.
Plus it looks like one of the easiest styles to replicate during modding. With the whole part of the game devoted to being able to mod everything, that's kind of important. Hell, you could use a coloured in-version of that old-looking map of Middle-Earth and it would still fit (though good luck reading all the names of the places).
We will continue to support the current style - drag and drop mod functionality is very important to us. The new style will be very easy to work with as well, think along the lines of the Civ V map building. If we reach an impasse where one style must supersede the other for functionally we will discuss that with everyone before coming to any decision.At the risk of encouraging too much crowd sourcing of opinions....it'd be swell if we could see your top picks on the visual style and vote on the one we think rocks the most.
We're releasing a build to Beta Backers and above very shortly after KS is released that is meant to test assets, we'll be working with them to figure out the best possible solution from the map down to the individual units. All other backers will be able to see the progress on the internal board where we can have an open debate on the different screenshots posted from various samples.
We're releasing a build to Beta Backers and above very shortly
We're releasing a build to Beta Backers
(http://www.screwattack.com/sites/default/files/image/images/News/2012/0107/Grinch%20Gabe.jpg)
What all will this build include? Obviously I'm not gonna be That Guy and use my beta access as a playground but I'm still pretty excite.
Post by: Jalak on October 15, 2014, 07:51:44 pm
What all will this build include? Obviously I'm not gonna be That Guy and use my beta access as a playground but I'm still pretty excite.
I thought the point of the beta early access was to use it as a playground and provide feedback and whatnot, or am I completely missing something in what you're saying?
Also, I'm a bit confused about the beta we're going to get considering what's been said on it; are we going to be able to see and use the modding tools only, or do we play the game itself as well? if the former, how are we supposed to know what's balanced or not, or is there some other purpose to this beta?
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2014, 07:55:27 pm
Post by: Rez on October 15, 2014, 08:15:50 pm
anyway, convenient time to ptw.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 15, 2014, 08:57:53 pm
What all will this build include? Obviously I'm not gonna be That Guy and use my beta access as a playground but I'm still pretty excite.
I thought the point of the beta early access was to use it as a playground and provide feedback and whatnot, or am I completely missing something in what you're saying?
Also, I'm a bit confused about the beta we're going to get considering what's been said on it; are we going to be able to see and use the modding tools only, or do we play the game itself as well? if the former, how are we supposed to know what's balanced or not, or is there some other purpose to this beta?
What we will be releasing immediately after Kickstarter ends is NOT the beta, it is a build (which we call The Scenario Viewer) we use for testing assets and effects, ex[ectations for the Beta access are 2 months from the end of Kickstarter. We are releasing this particular tool right away because we want testers to be able to be involved very closely in selecting which approach we take with the new assets.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 16, 2014, 01:43:58 am
This update was very interesting. I'm rooting for the mind flayers, especially if we can recruit them as minions.
Also happy to hear the agent count does not diminish with the 1K pledge upping to 3K.
Post by: Sartain on October 16, 2014, 02:51:40 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 16, 2014, 03:04:16 am
Only the Warhammer dudes are evil enough to try and trademark every combination of words having to do with their games. (Like they trademarked space marine. You can make a game about marines in space, but not space marines.)
Random scenario idea (for modders, I guess): Opposite day. Put player in as an imprisoned force of goodie goodness in a world overtaken by darkness, trying to make it a nice place again from the shadows. As a super-exotic version, make it a rebellion in Hell where an imprisoned angel is secretly turning the damned nice. :p
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 08:43:44 am
I'm curious, won't you possibly get in trouble for using the term Mindflayer?
We were under the impression that Mind Flayer was generic, but we have been linked to Wizards official statement which is that they own the copyright - given that Mind Flayers were first inspired by a Lovecraft story we are just going to go back to that original inspiration. The idea was to introduce a more "Lovecraftian" race with the Mind Flayers so it works just as well.
Post by: Xantalos on October 16, 2014, 10:32:43 am
Post by: Ghazkull on October 16, 2014, 10:51:51 am
"Illithid" is IP of Wizards, mindflayer is a generic term afaik. I've been kind of expecting them to sue Dominions for using "illithid" straight with their R'lyeh.
Only the Warhammer dudes are evil enough to try and trademark every combination of words having to do with their games. (Like they trademarked space marine. You can make a game about marines in space, but not space marines.)
Random scenario idea (for modders, I guess): Opposite day. Put player in as an imprisoned force of goodie goodness in a world overtaken by darkness, trying to make it a nice place again from the shadows. As a super-exotic version, make it a rebellion in Hell where an imprisoned angel is secretly turning the damned nice. :p
Well Space Marine is something i can understand (although not support) what i find worse is that they trademarked "WAAAGH"
Post by: Xantalos on October 16, 2014, 11:07:22 am
Goddammit GW.
Post by: nenjin on October 16, 2014, 11:08:04 am
They trademarked WAAAGH!TM?
Goddammit GW.
It's GWS. They'd trademark "Emperor" if they stood a snowball's chance in hell of defending the claim.
Post by: Xantalos on October 16, 2014, 11:10:43 am
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 11:31:43 am
They trademarked WAAAGH!TM?
Goddammit GW.
That is taking things to a whole new level
Post by: ventuswings on October 16, 2014, 11:54:07 am
If the "Terror-from-beneath" race makes it in (unfortunately another race I prefer the least ::)), will they have close affiliation with the Epoch? Since The Worm gave birth to all things subterranean, it's easy to assume they will very easily rally to call of their Mother barring substantial intervention.
Post by: Sartain on October 16, 2014, 12:39:50 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 16, 2014, 01:10:10 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on October 16, 2014, 01:15:11 pm
Personally, I'm most interested in Biomancer, though the name is a little lame - something like Fleshweaver would be more fun. The thought of capturing heroes and molding them into unholy abominations is appealing.
Post by: SharpKris on October 16, 2014, 01:18:48 pm
Personally, I'm most interested in Biomancer, though the name is a little lame - something like Fleshweaver would be more fun. The thought of capturing heroes and molding them into unholy abominations is appealing.
this
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 16, 2014, 01:59:43 pm
I'm so interested in the biomancer, he would allow so many references to other games, uruk hais obviously, some kind of starcraft scenario with you as the zerg,WH40K tyranids, mass effect (bring humans to the reaper larva to "awaken", and huskifying everything), and even in stock the possibilities just look so great...
Side note: we've just crossed 58K, so one of the three is definitely coming!
Post by: Zangi on October 16, 2014, 02:03:07 pm
Yea, Biomancer is my first pick. I would not mind the false one.
But... I think I like the idea of adding unique mechanics even more, so whichever Agent does more of that.
Post by: rylen on October 16, 2014, 02:32:51 pm
I'm fond of her, then the False One, and the Devourer least.
For the new species, I like the Mind Flayers the best and shall name one Sam Starfall. After that the Minotaurs. It looks like they're filling a Noble Savage pushed to the edge role while the Orcs are the traditional Violent Savage poised to strike.(2) How does history explain the Minotaurs? Are they part of a broader group of animal-men? The Dragonkin don't do anything for me.
Three questions on procedural. Nations increase Strength by fighting. What sort of limits are there? A need to recharge between fights? Diminishing returns? Can you save the game an interesting point and turn it into a scenario? And will you support saving and backing up every few game years?
(1) Any chance of her creating distinct populations? How about in the endless game?
(2) Could an endless game have the Orcs as the overarching culture and, say, the Dwarfs pushed into the badlands.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 03:24:44 pm
In the name of science! And I guess maybe medicine and progress too....
Yea, Biomancer is my first pick. I would not mind the false one.
But... I think I like the idea of adding unique mechanics even more, so whichever Agent does more of that.
All three add a fair amount of Effects, it depends on where you want to see those mechanics being created. The False One will create additional intereactions with the Prophecy and the Chosen one, the Biomancer will add more hooks into races and elite units (and massive consumption of slaves), and the Devourer will add the wonderful EAT_OLD_ONE effect flag.
Tough question for KDG, what will you be adding for the expansion agents that the game doesn't support now? I thought a bit about a Dr. Moreau style hybridizer who can to a remote POI, perform a series of long challenges at the end of each he receives a building, a progressively nicer minion, and can recruit more of that minion in the future. Or he can go to a town having trouble, perform shorter, noisier challenges, kill a bunch of folks and scare more, and get increasingly fine surgically augmented minions. How is the Biomancer different?(1)
I'm fond of her, then the False One, and the Devourer least.
For the new species, I like the Mind Flayers the best and shall name one Sam Starfall. After that the Minotaurs. It looks like they're filling a Noble Savage pushed to the edge role while the Orcs are the traditional Violent Savage poised to strike.(2) How does history explain the Minotaurs? Are they part of a broader group of animal-men? The Dragonkin don't do anything for me.
Three questions on procedural. Nations increase Strength by fighting. What sort of limits are there? A need to recharge between fights? Diminishing returns? Can you save the game an interesting point and turn it into a scenario? And will you support saving and backing up every few game years?
(1) Any chance of her creating distinct populations? How about in the endless game?
(2) Could an endless game have the Orcs as the overarching culture and, say, the Dwarfs pushed into the badlands.
The Moreau analogy is apt, the major difference is that the Biomancer needs thousands upon thousands of people to truly create a new race. Her other abilities pivot around lesser, but more powerful, beings.
Minotaurs have no inherent lore to their origin, they are one of the primal Elder Races that were birthed with the world - much of their culture has been lost due to their lacking the natural defensive terrain of the Elves and Dwarves and their lands were encroached upon. We suggested Minotaurs to diversify the Tribal/Fringe elements of the world, and to add another point of local discord that has the weight of an entire race behind it.
Surprised no one is liking the Draconkin, fierce raiders that can migrate when challenged - raid from behind enemy lines to cut off supply and burn villages - a secret agenda given to them by mysterious creators.
I can tell you what Procedural is like now, but keep in mind we wrote it in less than 2 days to act as a test so these rules are absolutely going to change. National stats increase up to the government type limit, and determine who wins in a struggle over a POI - after winning or losing a battle the nations military is temporarily reduced but it returns to full strength very quickly.
You can save it at ANY point and it generates a scenario file, that's how we decided to approach it without integrating it into the main map engine. So the Proc Gen generates a scenario, which yo ucould then save, but which normally is then loaded by the main engine as the new scenario to be played.
1) She can create distinct populations, but not map races - they will always be a lesser component
2) It could certainly occur, though the Dwarves have a "retreat from the map" option which involves them plunging into the depths
Post by: ventuswings on October 16, 2014, 03:58:23 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 16, 2014, 04:07:11 pm
A few questions about precederal and endless; if we have the ability to make a scenario during the history of the world at any point, what's stopping us from making a scenario immediately, when everyone's underdeveloped and probably haven't even gotten out of their starting POI at that point and crushing everything right out of the gate (besides that it wouldn't be as fun that way)?
Also, are all the races thrown into the game at the same time at the start, or do they all show up at pre-determined, or randomized, points in history?
Is there an option to have these races have cultural traits that don't coincide with their stereotypes, so we could have the noble, civilized Orcs trying to stop the bloodthirsty Elf hordes and whatnot?
Post by: Nick K on October 16, 2014, 04:15:02 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 05:00:04 pm
I'm going to put my votes for the Biomancer agent, then Dragonkin race, because dragons are awesome.
A few questions about precederal and endless; if we have the ability to make a scenario during the history of the world at any point, what's stopping us from making a scenario immediately, when everyone's underdeveloped and probably haven't even gotten out of their starting POI at that point and crushing everything right out of the gate (besides that it wouldn't be as fun that way)?
Also, are all the races thrown into the game at the same time at the start, or do they all show up at pre-determined, or randomized, points in history?
Is there an option to have these races have cultural traits that don't coincide with their stereotypes, so we could have the noble, civilized Orcs trying to stop the bloodthirsty Elf hordes and whatnot?
We currently limit your ability to start the game until you have reached your full power, so at that point the world will have sufficiently developed to some point - I'd imagine we'll be lifting that restriction after some testing, but as you say it may not be particularly fun unless you enabled your rivals.
You can configure each Age of procedural to spawn as you would like, but by default we have the Elder Races already placed at start with very high values, and then humans and other minor races spawn throughout the first age. In subsequent ages the Humans begin to grow to outpace the Elder Races since they take much more frequent actions. All of this is of course prone to change as it was only a quick prototype, though it works surprisingly well to simulate the feel of the world we were going for.
You can configure their culture and leader trait any way you'd like, and if you gave them a civilized culture other nations would see them as friendly as well. It gets more tricky with government types, Orcs by default only have a few so either keep them with their more primitive structure (noble savages) or tack on a human government like a Monarchy, though some of the events may feel out of place.
So, it's been about a week since part 1 of devlog 4. Are the other bits still due out?
We talked on the forums about how the last video caused us to actually lose pledges (a not insignificant amount), for reasons unknown (alpha assets?) - we are still debating whether or not to post them during the KS. Either way, we'll post them all on the backer forums right after the KS ends.
Post by: Jalak on October 16, 2014, 05:15:05 pm
Post by: i2amroy on October 16, 2014, 05:25:32 pm
To be honest, I think it would be best to bite the bullet and just release the videos. While the depledging is certainly a sting (and a bit confusing), no amount of criticism is going to change the fact that you've already so much money now that it shouldn't make a real difference.Eh, personally I'd rather hit a stretch goal and wait one extra week to see the logs than get them now but lose a stretch goal due to depledging. I mean as a person who already pledged it's not exactly like it'll make a difference in the long run to me whether I get the logs now or a week from now.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 05:48:24 pm
To be honest, I think it would be best to bite the bullet and just release the videos. While the depledging is certainly a sting (and a bit confusing), no amount of criticism is going to change the fact that you've already so much money now that it shouldn't make a real difference.Eh, personally I'd rather hit a stretch goal and wait one extra week to see the logs than get them now but lose a stretch goal due to depledging. I mean as a person who already pledged it's not exactly like it'll make a difference in the long run to me whether I get the logs now or a week from now.
It's a strange situation for me to be in, because I just want to release everything I do - but it seems to be practical to just wait until the KS ends.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 16, 2014, 09:38:23 pm
Post-release when you're bringing in revenue from sales and such can we hope to see some of the stuff that got passed over in these polls?
Post by: lemon10 on October 16, 2014, 11:29:56 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 16, 2014, 11:57:34 pm
On a tiny note that I just can't keep from mentioning: The icon signs for statuses in POI's look very similar for level 1 and level 2 (both surrounded by a fairly thing grey border). You can still tell they are different, but a larger difference in look (eg. Give level 1 a bronze border (so its bronze->silver->gold for the border colors)) would be nice. Of course, the difference could be totally fine when actually playing the game, but it seems (just from seeing the icons) that a slightly larger difference would be better.
We actually are modifying every Icon stage for final release - we are working with a really fantastic, responsive contractor for the icons that is also incredibly affordable which is letting us get that critical instant feedback element really integrated into the GUI.
I like the False One the most, and of the races I'm torn between minotaurs and mind flayers. Dragonkin don't do much for me.
Post-release when you're bringing in revenue from sales and such can we hope to see some of the stuff that got passed over in these polls?
Post-release there are so many directions to take the game in that we don't want to make any decisions until people have gotten their hands dirty with the game, but I would say that these races, agents, and Old Ones that do not make the cut are definitely on the table.
Also if we continue to progress past our last stretch goal we're going to allow additional votes on any of these to add them at relative cost.
Post by: lemon10 on October 17, 2014, 12:19:54 am
Post by: Rutee on October 17, 2014, 01:19:46 am
Secondary question: Aside from being party members and sources of aaaaaaangst/revenge for heroes, does them being buddies change much? I saw something about trading clues, so that's presumably involved, but can they for instance, recover each other's willpower/strengthen each other from its losses? What about corruption? Do corrupted buddies generate clues? Can corrupted buddies be saved (At least, prior to their activation)? Can corrupted buddies themselves be a source of corruption? I was having trouble finding a unified listing of all that we know, and while I did read the devlogs on IndieDB, well... X3
Ooo, ooo, and since you said GOOs can be moddable, I was kinda unclear on what you meant by the Prophet's scheme being an event? Does that mean "Yes but it's not quite in the GOO file"? And can I take what you said as confirmation that there are some events specific to a GOO being your main character? I mean, I assumed Rival GOOs would occasionally have events, but for some reason I kinda thought you would not (Since really, everything you do is an event for the world, not the other way around.) Can you, like, I don't know, occasionally get rammed into by a fishing boat and slip further into sleep as Cthulhu or something?
Post by: Majestic7 on October 17, 2014, 01:31:56 am
It would be interesting if heroes had relationships both as a source of strength and weakness. So friendships/romances would make ties between heroes strong enough to grant boni and make the heroes likely to search for each other when lost. So if you kidnapped hero A who was a lover of hero B, you'd be pretty sure hero B would come looking for him/her. That could be a bane or a boon; if you wanted to entrap hero B using hero A as a bait it would be a benefit. Likewise, if you could corrupt a hero, s/he would then spread misinformation and/or corruption among friends and lover...not to mention being used for a backstab at a critical point if necessary. On the other hand, the corrupted hero should have a tiny chance for redemption for the sake of love or friendship. All these are, after all, storylines present in variety of fiction.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 17, 2014, 01:41:41 am
I probably should have asked this before I threw more money at it, and the Biomancer (Fleshweaver is the superior name but for now...) gives me hope, but there's going to be, like, some non-healer women as heroes, right? I assume so, since I saw something about heroic marriages, but I guess I could be surprised.
Secondary question: Aside from being party members and sources of aaaaaaangst/revenge for heroes, does them being buddies change much? I saw something about trading clues, so that's presumably involved, but can they for instance, recover each other's willpower/strengthen each other from its losses? What about corruption? Do corrupted buddies generate clues? Can corrupted buddies be saved (At least, prior to their activation)? Can corrupted buddies themselves be a source of corruption? I was having trouble finding a unified listing of all that we know, and while I did read the devlogs on IndieDB, well... X3
Ooo, ooo, and since you said GOOs can be moddable, I was kinda unclear on what you meant by the Prophet's scheme being an event? Does that mean "Yes but it's not quite in the GOO file"? And can I take what you said as confirmation that there are some events specific to a GOO being your main character? I mean, I assumed Rival GOOs would occasionally have events, but for some reason I kinda thought you would not (Since really, everything you do is an event for the world, not the other way around.) Can you, like, I don't know, occasionally get rammed into by a fishing boat and slip further into sleep as Cthulhu or something?
I believe we have revealed two female agents - the Great Captain and the Exile. Both of which wouldn't take kindly to being called a healer. Their are more as well, though there are more males then females. As far as heroes goes its a 50/50 spawn rate unless the Culture is specifically Patriarchal/Matriarchal.
Friendship amongst heroes (and even more importantly if they are friends with Champions and Leaders ) is extremely important, the value of exchanging clues alone can not be understated. Corruption, willpower lost, wounds - all of these things are much easier to heal, and sometimes only if, they have a loyal friend with them. Quests and Campaigns are much easier if a Hero can call on friends to help him, rather than have to either gather strangers or go it alone. If you have corrupted a Hero he can spread his corruption to friends and those around him, though it's not a sure thing or particularly strong. However, just having the corrupted Hero and the Infiltration he grants opens up more paths for your methods of corruption.
"Corrupted Buddies" is a great term by the way, that should have been our company name.
Can you give me some context on the "The Prophet's Scheme being an Event" response? Not sure what I meant by that response, the Prophet's Scheme is unique only in that it is different per Old One - most Agents have one scheme no matter your Old One choice. Yes there are Events specific to an Old One, some of the Old One's have LONG event chains with mechanics tied in that effect their core gameplay while others have very few and mostly thematic events that provide at best little mechanical differences.
Nothing so ignoble as fishing boats giving you the manatee service, almost all of them are related to your emerging abilities as you waken though others are based on developments in the world. Only Karth has events that trigger on his physical form.
Woo, Fleshweaver, woo! I will gladly come up with more interesting terminology for KingDinosaur at a very cheap price! I only require there to be pink invisible unicorns named Fred in the game!
It would be interesting if heroes had relationships both as a source of strength and weakness. So friendships/romances would make ties between heroes strong enough to grant boni and make the heroes likely to search for each other when lost. So if you kidnapped hero A who was a lover of hero B, you'd be pretty sure hero B would come looking for him/her. That could be a bane or a boon; if you wanted to entrap hero B using hero A as a bait it would be a benefit. Likewise, if you could corrupt a hero, s/he would then spread misinformation and/or corruption among friends and lover...not to mention being used for a backstab at a critical point if necessary. On the other hand, the corrupted hero should have a tiny chance for redemption for the sake of love or friendship. All these are, after all, storylines present in variety of fiction.
The interactions you're describing are essential to the gameplay, though corruption doesn't spread so strongly - and in fact if you corrupt a loved one of another hero/leader they will eventually discover it (though usually it crushes their will).
Post by: Rutee on October 17, 2014, 02:03:35 am
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
"The custom Prophet element is handled solely through events, unfortunate there is no custom component specifically for Old One/Chosen One interactions."It sounded like "The GOO-specific Scheme is done through an event at gamestart", a cludge I've tried using for CK2 before. Like, I'm not super concerned about ease of use for modding, since I'm not a modder and just want to make a bunch of themed GOOs, but I was vaguely curious.
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
I believe we have revealed two female agents - the Great Captain and the Exile. Both of which wouldn't take kindly to being called a healer. Their are more as well, though there are more males then females.More men than women was expected, I'm just glad there's some cool stuff!
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
As far as heroes goes its a 50/50 spawn rate unless the Culture is specifically Patriarchal/Matriarchal.Praise the sun!
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
Yes there are Events specific to an Old One, some of the Old One's have LONG event chains with mechanics tied in that effect their core gameplay while others have very few and mostly thematic events that provide at best little mechanical differences.I'm guessing Belial's one with a long, important event chain, but variety is the spice of life just the same. That sounds super cool.
Quote from: DinosaurKingGames
Friendship amongst heroes (and even more importantly if they are friends with Champions and Leaders ) is extremely important, the value of exchanging clues alone can not be understated. Corruption, willpower lost, wounds - all of these things are much easier to heal, and sometimes only if, they have a loyal friend with them. Quests and Campaigns are much easier if a Hero can call on friends to help him, rather than have to either gather strangers or go it alone. If you have corrupted a Hero he can spread his corruption to friends and those around him, though it's not a sure thing or particularly strong. However, just having the corrupted Hero and the Infiltration he grants opens up more paths for your methods of corruption.Oooo, wait, that makes total sense, being friends with leaders and stuff opening up avenues to, well, mostly Bad Things for you (Unless corrupted, I guess!). It'd be kind of hilarious if some poor, dumb bastard had no chance in hell of interpreting an amazingly big Clue that they just happened to take off the map, but is like, six degrees removed from Aladrane, First Blade of the Republic. And then it becomes one of those Things where you start killing all the people who notice you're killing people... And this all sounds fantastic, I'm quite a fan. I'm guessing corrupting heroes has its own costs, since (and I may have misunderstood), they can be agents.
Quote from: KingDinosaurGames
"Corrupted Buddies" is a great term by the way, that should have been our company name.I am proud, yet ashamed, to have come up with competition for dinosaurs.
Quote from: Majestic7
It would be interesting if heroes had relationships both as a source of strength and weakness. So friendships/romances would make ties between heroes strong enough to grant boni and make the heroes likely to search for each other when lost. So if you kidnapped hero A who was a lover of hero B, you'd be pretty sure hero B would come looking for him/her. That could be a bane or a boon; if you wanted to entrap hero B using hero A as a bait it would be a benefit. Likewise, if you could corrupt a hero, s/he would then spread misinformation and/or corruption among friends and lover...not to mention being used for a backstab at a critical point if necessary. On the other hand, the corrupted hero should have a tiny chance for redemption for the sake of love or friendship. All these are, after all, storylines present in variety of fiction.Yeah, I was thinkin' of all of that, and I'm glad to see it's in there.
Post by: Mithras on October 17, 2014, 02:16:35 am
Schemes or old one powers that enabled a hero to trade statistics. Such as gaining more overal health for a cost of willpower, healing for willpower, or gaining more attack for health. A similiar mechanic for leaders and POIs (especially cities that could solve short term problems by sacrificing permanent resources (lowering their need for food but reducing their output of lore for example). The idea is to have a faustian bargains element to an old one, giving the enemy the opportunity to gain power and flexiblity that comes with a price then manipulating the world so that the strentgh goes un (or ill)used and the price has to be paid again and again.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 17, 2014, 03:41:27 am
It could also be an addiction; even the purest Hero gradually succumbing because they need the taste of your dark magic. This could tie into low willpower, more desperate heroes being more likely to take another look.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 17, 2014, 06:05:33 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 17, 2014, 09:18:39 am
Okay I can't find a way to link comments on IDB, but you said it on the That Which Sleeps summary page in response to Guest-me;Quote from: KingDinosaurGames"The custom Prophet element is handled solely through events, unfortunate there is no custom component specifically for Old One/Chosen One interactions."It sounded like "The GOO-specific Scheme is done through an event at gamestart", a cludge I've tried using for CK2 before. Like, I'm not super concerned about ease of use for modding, since I'm not a modder and just want to make a bunch of themed GOOs, but I was vaguely curious.
Ah, that was a typo - the first "Prophet" should also be "The Chosen One". I believe they were asking about the special interactions we had mentioned that a certain Old One (Sisyphus) has with the Chosen One, and if that was a special "element" of the Old One's configuration - but it's actually configured in the events section with a simple IF statement.
Post by: Romanul on October 17, 2014, 11:00:38 am
Did you post a video somewhere? I'm asking because the funding has been slowing down a bit. (joke)
Post by: Scoops Novel on October 17, 2014, 11:02:21 am
Oh, I like that. A Faustian Pact Old One would be cool - the mortals would corrupt themselves in their greed and lust for power without you having to do much. Most likely they wouldn't quite know what they were dealing with - and of course, should you grant too much power, they might become too mighty to control and turn against you.
It could also be an addiction; even the purest Hero gradually succumbing because they need the taste of your dark magic. This could tie into low willpower, more desperate heroes being more likely to take another look.
Except that thanks to the stretch goals, the devil has to sell at competitive prices. Cant let the Jones's do all the corrupting!
On that note, do you plan to have NPC's play you off against their enemies?
Post by: Rutee on October 17, 2014, 12:30:12 pm
Okay I can't find a way to link comments on IDB, but you said it on the That Which Sleeps summary page in response to Guest-me;Quote from: KingDinosaurGames"The custom Prophet element is handled solely through events, unfortunate there is no custom component specifically for Old One/Chosen One interactions."It sounded like "The GOO-specific Scheme is done through an event at gamestart", a cludge I've tried using for CK2 before. Like, I'm not super concerned about ease of use for modding, since I'm not a modder and just want to make a bunch of themed GOOs, but I was vaguely curious.
Ah, that was a typo - the first "Prophet" should also be "The Chosen One". I believe they were asking about the special interactions we had mentioned that a certain Old One (Sisyphus) has with the Chosen One, and if that was a special "element" of the Old One's configuration - but it's actually configured in the events section with a simple IF statement.
No, that was me. I was asking if the Prophet's Scheme for a particular GOO is someplace convenient in the GOO file or not. Just an idle ease of use question I have no business asking right now.
So wait, we CAN make our own Chosen One/GOO interactions as well? Cool! I don't know that I would, but I like that we can!
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 17, 2014, 12:32:04 pm
@KingDinosaurGames:
Did you post a video somewhere? I'm asking because the funding has been slowing down a bit. (joke)
<-- Wounded. Still 1k today so far, we've only had two real slow days during the entire Campaign - of course we're INCREDIBLY HAPPY at how successful this has been but I wish I had expected it to be like this so I could have planned better. I'm usually super aggressive about maintaining schedules both for what hours I work daily and for when I can expect to finish things but this last month has absolutely destroyed any attempt at order. Can't wait to get back to a more normal routine.
EDIT: More seriously, one of those slow days is the one where we lost over $500 from the Mod Video.... SIGH - I'm very proud of our mod tools as well so it was very depressing. We're working our asses off trying to update the Mod Tools to the Beta Assets now so that they have greater mass appeal but since there's over 100 windows it's taking some time.
Oh, I like that. A Faustian Pact Old One would be cool - the mortals would corrupt themselves in their greed and lust for power without you having to do much. Most likely they wouldn't quite know what they were dealing with - and of course, should you grant too much power, they might become too mighty to control and turn against you.
It could also be an addiction; even the purest Hero gradually succumbing because they need the taste of your dark magic. This could tie into low willpower, more desperate heroes being more likely to take another look.
Except that thanks to the stretch goals, the devil has to sell at competitive prices. Cant let the Jones's do all the corrupting!
On that note, do you plan to have NPC's play you off against their enemies?
The Lesser Evils and Those That Remained are the two powers that will be crossing this line most often - the regular heroes of the world and their leaders are more concerned with their earthly struggles.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 17, 2014, 12:34:14 pm
Okay I can't find a way to link comments on IDB, but you said it on the That Which Sleeps summary page in response to Guest-me;Quote from: KingDinosaurGames"The custom Prophet element is handled solely through events, unfortunate there is no custom component specifically for Old One/Chosen One interactions."It sounded like "The GOO-specific Scheme is done through an event at gamestart", a cludge I've tried using for CK2 before. Like, I'm not super concerned about ease of use for modding, since I'm not a modder and just want to make a bunch of themed GOOs, but I was vaguely curious.
Ah, that was a typo - the first "Prophet" should also be "The Chosen One". I believe they were asking about the special interactions we had mentioned that a certain Old One (Sisyphus) has with the Chosen One, and if that was a special "element" of the Old One's configuration - but it's actually configured in the events section with a simple IF statement.
No, that was me. I was asking if the Prophet's Scheme for a particular GOO is someplace convenient in the GOO file or not. Just an idle ease of use question I have no business asking right now.
So wait, we CAN make our own Chosen One/GOO interactions as well? Cool! I don't know that I would, but I like that we can!
Ah ok so I misread the question AND made a typo in the response - good times! The Prophet's Schemes are located in the Agent file, just a case conditional depending on which GOO is selected with a Default if it's something he isn't programmed for.
Oh yes, Chosen One and Old Ones are pretty simple to setup and can be a lot of fun - though I like the thematics of it even more than the functionality that emerges from it.
Post by: Rutee on October 17, 2014, 12:40:45 pm
Still, p. excited. Will have to poke at the beta whenever that is to see if there's any major problems I can find~
Post by: cainiao on October 17, 2014, 12:42:34 pm
Anyway, congratulate on the successful campaign and hoping we can see next devlog video soon, better if a let's play series.
Post by: Humaan on October 18, 2014, 02:12:53 pm
As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 18, 2014, 02:23:44 pm
And thus, we have a new Race! Now, the question is, what can we do with the last 3 days?
As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.
One of the reasons we cut Minotaurs from the original design plan is that it seems to ALWAYS MAKE SENSE to crush them right away. They are an exotic culture with a foreign race so no one cares about them, and they threaten to give yet another type of Lore bonus to the civilized world if they are brought into the fold. Still, it was a somewhat painful loss because we had a whole system designed around their unique lore and multiple interactions with slaver states and magocracies/mage guilds.
We put them back in as part of the stretch goal because a) Tribal Humans needed another interesting party to make their areas more diversified and b) with rival old ones they now can become an early point of "cold war" contention between the old ones, since they would make powerful tools to use against other dark gods.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 18, 2014, 02:26:25 pm
Post by: ventuswings on October 18, 2014, 02:55:58 pm
Congratulations on reaching the second of additional stretch goals, looks like >$68000 is looking more and more viable. I can't wait to see the update about possible villainous upstarts. Also, do you plan to throw in additional stretch goal thereafter that would allow inclusion of all 3 proposed races instead of only one? (proposed Agents have the same problem but at least $1000 tier kickstarters can do something for them unlike the races)
Post by: lemon10 on October 18, 2014, 03:04:28 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 18, 2014, 03:27:27 pm
Yeah, I for one second an additional stretch goal, especially since if you put one there is pretty good odds that it will be reached.
We will probably put something up, debate ongoing right now if we just want to say "every X we have another vote on Agent/Race" - we still have another 7 Agents who were rejected for various reasons sitting in a design document. The only other thing we were considering was add a VO tier because enough people inquired about it - we originally said no to VO because it's just too much time to do, not even the cost, but we could simply put it at enough to hire a firm to do it for us.
Thoughts? More agents is always nice due to diversifying your strategies, but there's enough now that you can play several games and play with entirely different agents (besides the starting 4).
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 18, 2014, 03:37:49 pm
Or, you could do a bit of both worlds do for example:
-Set a stretch goal at 10K more (this is a random value, basically what the VO would cost)
-Say it is for X amount of new content OR agent VO
-Let people vote at the end if the goal is met
-If not they get whatever new content the money can bring (ie if VO is 10K and you get 5K, maybe a new agent/race/old one)
Post by: Rutee on October 18, 2014, 04:00:08 pm
Post by: ventuswings on October 18, 2014, 04:25:16 pm
Well, it's my personal preference and I am sure there will be option to turn it off, but if you do decide to use VO as potential stretch goal, I'd really appreciate it if you at least offer some option to choose between VO and more "game content" like Astfgl66 suggest.
I think more Agents/Races are still nice thing to have since it introduces new coding therefore more possibility for base game and the modders to play around. I'm also someone who plays the game I buy for months if not years (for example, I have played Civ IV up to four years by now) so more and more balanced diversification is always a good thing - in fact, Dwarf Fortress offer massive possibilities and it's one of the reason why it is so popular & stands against the test of time.
Post by: Darkmere on October 18, 2014, 04:27:56 pm
Post by: Nick K on October 18, 2014, 04:34:04 pm
Plus, I'm sure every developer plans for their VO to be really good, but I've seen enough games where it didn't improve the experience or even took away from it to believe that it's not something that's easy to get right.
Also, different accents can 'not work' for different people - especially if it's the player's in-game alter-ego being voiced. Personally, it's hard to keep up the immersion of someone being "me" if they have a clear American accent.
Of course, I have no problem with being outvoted if I'm in the minority, but if there was a backer vote mine would definitely be for game content instead of VO.
Post by: Jalak on October 18, 2014, 04:48:14 pm
Post by: Romanul on October 18, 2014, 06:19:02 pm
Post by: TempAcc on October 18, 2014, 06:23:35 pm
Like yea, sometimes they can be awesome if you have some REALLY good voice actors, but after one or two playthroughs, they tend to get in the way and just become repetitive. This has happened to me in pretty much every game with voice overs that I have played more then one.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 18, 2014, 06:25:14 pm
Post by: TTHSK on October 18, 2014, 06:27:24 pm
Post by: TempAcc on October 18, 2014, 06:35:22 pm
Voice overs are for more actiony, adventure or "cinematic" (urgh) games, not a grand strategy-eske fantasy game.
Like, imagine playing dominions with voiceovers. Probably not the best thing ever after a few games, even if the voice actors consisted of morgan freeman, sean connery and patrick steward.
Post by: rylen on October 18, 2014, 07:34:44 pm
That sounds cool. I suspect they need the right scenarios. Set them up so you can choose to build up their grievances, strengthen ties with the orcs and others who will fight against the civilizations, and otherwise bring them into contention, versus ignoring them and hoping they do not develop in ways that undermine you. Other places, they would be the minor nuisance you want to crush before they get bigger.And thus, we have a new Race! Now, the question is, what can we do with the last 3 days?
As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.
One of the reasons we cut Minotaurs from the original design plan is that it seems to ALWAYS MAKE SENSE to crush them right away. They are an exotic culture with a foreign race so no one cares about them, and they threaten to give yet another type of Lore bonus to the civilized world if they are brought into the fold. Still, it was a somewhat painful loss because we had a whole system designed around their unique lore and multiple interactions with slaver states and magocracies/mage guilds.
We put them back in as part of the stretch goal because a) Tribal Humans needed another interesting party to make their areas more diversified and b) with rival old ones they now can become an early point of "cold war" contention between the old ones, since they would make powerful tools to use against other dark gods.
For me, the above is why I have "no love" for the Dragonkin. TWS is making heavy use of existing fantasy tropes and I don't see where they fit. The Minotaurs are Noble Savages and your choices are push them towards savagery, build a civilization to include them, or hope they do not go against you. The Mindflayers represent the unknowably eldrich in a tidy package. But what are the Dragonkin? I have not been following the Hasbro/Wizards/D&D fiction line, but I cannot think of any literary half-dragons besides the Dragonlance books. And those were heavily tied into the stories lore. They felt tacked on, to me, in 4th ed. D&D.
I don't think I asked my question about turning procedurally generated worlds into scenarios well. Having stopped generation, will I be able to open it up in the editor, modify some leaders, add a POI for the Baron, and otherwise tweak things. It would be a bit more work than sharing a DF seed and map location, but much less than a full custom scenario. I can see the community wanting to distinguish the two, but it makes for a potential core to build a story out of.
In terms of your next stretch goal, I'm also not a big fan of Voice Overs. I have no idea about pricing, but FTL benefits hugely from the sound. Would more tracks be a valid goal? I'd also like to see a commitment to post release scenarios.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on October 18, 2014, 08:14:25 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 18, 2014, 08:30:20 pm
That sounds cool. I suspect they need the right scenarios. Set them up so you can choose to build up their grievances, strengthen ties with the orcs and others who will fight against the civilizations, and otherwise bring them into contention, versus ignoring them and hoping they do not develop in ways that undermine you. Other places, they would be the minor nuisance you want to crush before they get bigger.And thus, we have a new Race! Now, the question is, what can we do with the last 3 days?
As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.
One of the reasons we cut Minotaurs from the original design plan is that it seems to ALWAYS MAKE SENSE to crush them right away. They are an exotic culture with a foreign race so no one cares about them, and they threaten to give yet another type of Lore bonus to the civilized world if they are brought into the fold. Still, it was a somewhat painful loss because we had a whole system designed around their unique lore and multiple interactions with slaver states and magocracies/mage guilds.
We put them back in as part of the stretch goal because a) Tribal Humans needed another interesting party to make their areas more diversified and b) with rival old ones they now can become an early point of "cold war" contention between the old ones, since they would make powerful tools to use against other dark gods.
For me, the above is why I have "no love" for the Dragonkin. TWS is making heavy use of existing fantasy tropes and I don't see where they fit. The Minotaurs are Noble Savages and your choices are push them towards savagery, build a civilization to include them, or hope they do not go against you. The Mindflayers represent the unknowably eldrich in a tidy package. But what are the Dragonkin? I have not been following the Hasbro/Wizards/D&D fiction line, but I cannot think of any literary half-dragons besides the Dragonlance books. And those were heavily tied into the stories lore. They felt tacked on, to me, in 4th ed. D&D.
I don't think I asked my question about turning procedurally generated worlds into scenarios well. Having stopped generation, will I be able to open it up in the editor, modify some leaders, add a POI for the Baron, and otherwise tweak things. It would be a bit more work than sharing a DF seed and map location, but much less than a full custom scenario. I can see the community wanting to distinguish the two, but it makes for a potential core to build a story out of.
In terms of your next stretch goal, I'm also not a big fan of Voice Overs. I have no idea about pricing, but FTL benefits hugely from the sound. Would more tracks be a valid goal? I'd also like to see a commitment to post release scenarios.
Yep, the Genealogical Process creates an actual Scenario File and a flat image (right now it does but we may import the tiles as stamps or otherwise more granular) which is used to load into the main engine. You can save it, edit it, make a template out of it, whatever you'd like to do. The two steps are complete black boxes to the other.
We are lucky enough to have a talented composer who is also a good friend of ours, so we have a variety of music we can use. To be honest I don't share the opinion that VO work, when done judiciously, wouldn't enhance a Grand Strategy game - but we have decided to not go the VO route. We've narrowed it down to a couple of proposed features, a really "weird" fusion Old One we had developed but said 'no chance', and just more content or supporting art/effects.
I do wonder why Dragonkin fell so flat, I think we didn't sell them properly. As the only flying race they naturally have unique gameplay, and they "emerge" from any terrain that can host Dragons - appearing like a swarm to immediately colonize adjacent spaces. The "sudden threat" of this unknown race spawns unique AI reactions - it isn't like Minotaurs appearing (which are known) or orcs raiding - it sends terror across the citizenry. Raise an army to attack them? They migrate elsewhere, looting and raiding in their wake.
As for Lore, they are the forerunners of a lost age, following desires to find certain elements that then spawn campaigns. If the Dragonkin succeed they will bring back the petrified/lost Dragons of their ancestry. A "shock the world" event.
I go back and forth on blatantly describing mechanics vs trying to give some mystery and theme - never sure which approach works better, but perhaps I should have simply laid out the Dragonkin abilities.
On a side note, I was heavily influenced by the Dragonlance books when I was a kid ("Look Raist, bunnies") though it lasted even more so because I played Arctic, a MUD from.. two decades ago? I'll never forget the terror of fighting Draconians, or of falling off the Flying Citadel over and over and over.
On "commitment" to post-release scenarios, we will never absolutely commit because there's always the possibility of extenuating circumstances. I don't want to promise something I can't ABSOLUTELY deliver on. That being said, we intend to continue to support the game with additional scenarios, agents, content, and mod effects.
I don't check this for one day and 5,000$ was added.. Wow, all stretch goals seems easy now! I'm so very excited for this game, thank you Kingdinosaur for presenting this to us so openly the entire process. Made it easy to back. :]
Glad to hear it, we will continue to be this transparent (though less responsive) when the Kickstarter ends.
Post by: neo1096 on October 18, 2014, 08:46:22 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 18, 2014, 08:57:20 pm
I assume you can subvert their quests? Bring back the dragons under your control? Deceive them into funneling that energy into your own resurrection instead?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 18, 2014, 09:37:10 pm
I do like that much more. The dragonkin description didn't have the flair of the other two.
I assume you can subvert their quests? Bring back the dragons under your control? Deceive them into funneling that energy into your own resurrection instead?
That's the general idea - it's another example where we try to make it a "expend SIGNIFICANT energy to try and take direct control of the situation" vs "try to gently maneuver the situation to your benefit." Nothing quite like advising a King to send his elite units to hunt down a dragon.
We will be posting a lot more on mechanics in the Forum Post for the voting so people can make their choice with full information.
Post by: Xantalos on October 19, 2014, 04:10:58 am
Ohmygodohmygodohmygod I want them all. Even though it's kinda unlikely for those stretch goals to be reached, that Ascended mechanic sounds so damn interesting!
Post by: Jalak on October 19, 2014, 04:41:07 am
Also, just gone over the additional stretch goals and have a question about the Ascended one; will these new old ones that emerge through game-play have their own ability trees that set them apart from the "vanilla" old ones? How would such a system work if they do?
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 19, 2014, 04:49:20 am
He seems the most original in terms of awakening, only when his hoard is threatened. It makes for interesting growth and bursts in power something the other old ones don't bring. (They all seem to use the growth other time paradigm). I also find the ability to be able to break the bond between a magic user and the source of his magic very interesting.
There was no mention of it in the article so: does he have an awakening timer too or does he only fully awaken when his riches are theatened?
It was a very hard choice though, because all three sound awesome so i will be pleased with the result of the vote whatever it is.
Post by: Romanul on October 19, 2014, 05:08:47 am
The sea stretch goal however is a different story. That I like a lot, it makes better use of the map. In my opinion the map should be used at full potential (all terrain types, sea, underground etc) should have activity on them and not be dead or of little activity/value. I hope someone mods a Poseidon god for the sea as well as tons of events since it's a shame to have so much space empty (content wise).
The expanded human culture is just as good but I don't think we'll get there. Can't really complain, I got all the stretch goals I wanted and then all those I dreamed about.
Post by: Rutee on October 19, 2014, 05:56:09 am
.
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 19, 2014, 05:59:39 am
Post by: Romanul on October 19, 2014, 06:43:48 am
Post by: ventuswings on October 19, 2014, 08:31:25 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 19, 2014, 10:22:23 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 19, 2014, 10:46:23 am
In the event of the last kickstarter goal being reached, I am casting my vote for the Jungle god, Moloch, while my brother wants to see the Laughing God, Tzadar, in action.
Also, just gone over the additional stretch goals and have a question about the Ascended one; will these new old ones that emerge through game-play have their own ability trees that set them apart from the "vanilla" old ones? How would such a system work if they do?
We have a system for Lesser Evils where their traits impact existing abilities, it's still being fleshed out but you would be able to incorporate changes to the passive and active abilities of the Usurped Old Ones, as well as seizing any Aspects they have taken from the Gods.
I cast a vote for Anaxas.
He seems the most original in terms of awakening, only when his hoard is threatened. It makes for interesting growth and bursts in power something the other old ones don't bring. (They all seem to use the growth other time paradigm). I also find the ability to be able to break the bond between a magic user and the source of his magic very interesting.
There was no mention of it in the article so: does he have an awakening timer too or does he only fully awaken when his riches are theatened?
It was a very hard choice though, because all three sound awesome so i will be pleased with the result of the vote whatever it is.
Sorry, he has a very short timer like Karth - Anaxas was our original "other early game God". The idea was, like Karth, he appear as "just a stronger version of an orc/dragon" and you need to exploit that as much as possible while making solid early gains.
Will I be able to vote if I do PayPal donation during the voting period, or do I have to contribute beford the end of Kickstarter?
We will not vote until ALL backers, from KS and from Paypal, are added to the forums!
Post by: ventuswings on October 19, 2014, 11:58:45 am
Also I read on Kickstarter comment you are interested in relating "Mindflayers" and Azlan together - is there a lore reason why they don't have any closer affliation with Enoch? I would have thought they share some sort of close relationship due to their subterranean nature.
That actually reminds me, when the game generates Rival Old One (which I assume is picked randomly since figuring out their identity is another componenet of the game), is it possible for your competitor to be playable Old One you haven't selected, such as Karth?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 19, 2014, 01:05:48 pm
Would it be possible for you to explain how these Old Ones were conceived (instead of their mechaincs being integrated to other existing Old Ones) and any reason why these Gods were eliminated from the final list? Having read about further explanation on Dragonkin and Minosaurs, I think understanding their design intent would be much valuable on making a choice.
Also I read on Kickstarter comment you are interested in relating "Mindflayers" and Azlan together - is there a lore reason why they don't have any closer affliation with Enoch? I would have thought they share some sort of close relationship due to their subterranean nature.
That actually reminds me, when the game generates Rival Old One (which I assume is picked randomly since figuring out their identity is another componenet of the game), is it possible for your competitor to be playable Old One you haven't selected, such as Karth?
The Old Ones got caught mostly because we had to cut down to 6 to be reasonable. Moloch was the one I really wanted in, but he lost out to the more typical archetypes and also because his particular ability (to be present in multiple places via his tendrils) required adding in some AI routines that weren't present. Anaxas and Karth were somewhat the same originally, with Anaxas having his Hoard ability and also Karth's affinity to orcs - we decided we want to go more the "spirit of war" route with Karth and created a separate set of mechanics with Anaxas representing a more extraplanar entity, taking his interactions with the ether from a Sage-like Old One who got cut. So that is why both Anaxas and Karth play out with an early-game strategy. Tzadar is all about blood orgies and madness in the streets - not the kind of Madness of that drives someone insane but the depths of excess that represent primal human passions. He was a very thematic Old One, with a ton of events associated with his powers - but also has his bubbles of evil that cause extreme chaos throughout the world. He was tied very strongly to his cult, so when we cut religions we cut him as well.
It was just a thought based on a comment about tying them together, I don't think we'd take that route but I can see why it may offer a benefit. The "lore" reason is that Mind Flayers are "eldritch invaders" from another realm, they aren't native to this world whereas Enoch is a part of the natural order. The interaction between the native creatures and the Eldritch plays out throughout the game.
Currently it is not, we aren't sure if it would make sense to have them because they have certain dependencies as Old Ones - we may want to recreate them as Rival Old Ones or create a mechanism to translate an Old One to a rival (which would benefit modders).
Post by: Cthulhu on October 19, 2014, 02:05:30 pm
That could be really sweet or it could turn out lame depending on what kind of powers he absorbs. harder to get that perfectly thematic handcrafted design you've got for the other Old Ones.
And there's only one slot? So if a different Lesser Evil ascends Gorblap the Old One disappears? What made you decide to limit it like that? It makes sense as a component of Endless mode but I dunno why what happens in one discrete game would affect the next one (aside from the bit of metagame we're allowing when we bring an ascended lesser evil into the Old One selections for the next game).
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 19, 2014, 02:17:47 pm
I'm kind of confused as to what Ascension means. So like, if Gorblap the Whatever Lesser Evil latches onto me as Belial and drains my power over the course of a game and for whatever reason I don't swat him, when I go to start my next game Gorblap will be occupying a seventh Old One slot with a mix of his and Belial's powers and whatever else he managed to gobble up during that game? Or do you mean I'll be able to swap to said Gorblap Old One if I continue the game via endless mode?
That could be really sweet or it could turn out lame depending on what kind of powers he absorbs. harder to get that perfectly thematic handcrafted design you've got for the other Old Ones.
And there's only one slot? So if a different Lesser Evil ascends Gorblap the Old One disappears? What made you decide to limit it like that? It makes sense as a component of Endless mode but I dunno why what happens in one discrete game would affect the next one (aside from the bit of metagame we're allowing when we bring an ascended lesser evil into the Old One selections for the next game).
How did you know about Gorblap?
Yes so the idea is when a Lesser Evil or another entity of similar power manages to Ascend he claims that spot (either by absorbing your or another Old One) - from then on he is available to be played as an Old One AND he will ALWAYS appear when you have Rival Old Ones selected. In other words, he is a constant adversary - and his AI priorities are always "absorb more power."
It definitely won't have the same thematic bent to it that the regular Old Ones have, instead his theme will come from the experience you have had with him - having seem this Evil either claim your power or claw its way up through the ranks of another Rival Old One you can have some appreciation for the types of power he developed from it. We are thinking of a system that applies additional effects based on the Ability tree of the seized Old One, which can stack to create a truly devastating Ascended.
The idea behind one slot is to keep as a constant element and ever evolving threat, who is the current Ascended? The current Ascended will only be replaced if he is ousted.
Like most elements, it is purely optional - but we feel it will perfectly supplement some of the play styles and creates an interesting, customizable Old One - not to mention the additional elements added to the editor to allow this possibility.
Post by: i2amroy on October 19, 2014, 03:16:03 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 19, 2014, 04:19:21 pm
Also, if something like that were to happen, there is an option where I can just "reset" the old one's back into power, right?
Can you have actual gods, or even the chosen one or powerful agents fight for this celestial throne as well?
Do they specifically have to target you to get to the ascended, or are there other ways?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 19, 2014, 04:41:12 pm
So it's sort of an ever evolving meta-AI that carries over between games? That sounds like it could be pretty fun. Any plans to be able to set the total number of slots instead of just one though? I could totally see having several other AI "players" that constantly oppose me through the different games I'm playing (preferably with the option to wipe one from the "table" between games if I want to.
Essentially, though the meta element of the AI won't be as pronounced (mostly just a few flags for starting AI conditions). I believe one slot will be it, when developing the more assumptions you can make the easier to have a smooth implementation, and limiting the number of this object to one is a hugely beneficial assumptions for us to make. When we reach the point of implementation (if this stretch goal is reached) we'll probably have the conversation with the beta backers if the additional time and testing is worth it for multiple.
So is it possible for multiple old one's to get absorbed and replaced during the game until your new game old one selection is completely replaced by these guys?
Also, if something like that were to happen, there is an option where I can just "reset" the old one's back into power, right?
Can you have actual gods, or even the chosen one or powerful agents fight for this celestial throne as well?
Do they specifically have to target you to get to the ascended, or are there other ways?
The Old One's don't disappear, there is a slot the opens up specifically for The Ascended. We wouldn't have Gods able to go down this path, or basic Agents, but a Corrupt Chosen One may just follow this same path.
They need to target any Old One, so either yourself or a rival Old One.
Post by: Jalak on October 19, 2014, 05:44:00 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 19, 2014, 11:59:16 pm
is there going to be an option to play as a sort of blank-slate old one that gets more powerful through the meta-game and ascended mechanics? I would love to have something like that in, where you gain your actual abilities and refine them through several scenario playthroughs. I'd imagine it would result in a lot of defeats at first but that just makes the victory all the more sweeter and make the old one more personable to you.
If the Ascended gets through you will be able to play as this increasingly powerful Old One that absorbs the powers and aspects of those it displaces, unless of course you are displaced. However, there is no plan for a blank slate type.
Post by: Xantalos on October 20, 2014, 02:13:31 am
Post by: Jalak on October 20, 2014, 02:46:27 am
Say, is there a way to set it so that the Chosen One is always a certain class and gender? I just realized that a Samurai Jack mod of this is possible, but there wouldn't be much point to playing Aku if you couldn't curse the damned Samurai again and again.
A ritual that can seal away the chosen one? Awesome!
Post by: Xantalos on October 20, 2014, 02:50:24 am
Post by: SharpKris on October 20, 2014, 04:39:50 am
Well, sort of, though that also sounds like a cool feature you could do - get the Chosen One out of your plans for a while in exchange for the prophecy elements being kinda accelerated once he arrives in your future.
ooooh i really like this idea
Post by: Shadowgandor on October 20, 2014, 05:07:11 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 20, 2014, 08:20:31 am
Say, is there a way to set it so that the Chosen One is always a certain class and gender? I just realized that a Samurai Jack mod of this is possible, but there wouldn't be much point to playing Aku if you couldn't curse the damned Samurai again and again.
You could set it in a Game Mode when starting a game, but there's no way to do it during the game (since it's configurable in game mode you could also make a ritual that does it).
Post by: Jalak on October 20, 2014, 08:33:21 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on October 20, 2014, 09:25:33 am
Quote
Tzeentch is a God of Chaos who represents the vitality and volatility of change. Tzeentch is closely associated with sorcery and magic, as well as dynamic mutation, and grand, convoluted scheming. The domains of history, destiny, intrigue and plots are his chief interests, and in pursuit of these aspects he listens to the dreams and hopes of all and watches their plans take form. He is not content to merely observe, however, and chooses to interfere in the skeins of fate in order to fulfill his own, unknowably complex schemes. Tzeentch is known by an endless multitude of names, but the chief titles he bears are the Changer of the Ways, the Master of Fortune, the Great Conspirator and the Architect of Fate.
It seems to fit the game perfectly, although the old one who can influence events might already fulfil a similar role
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 20, 2014, 12:50:19 pm
I love the idea of an Old One similar to Warhammer's Tzeentch. From the Warhammer 40k Lexicanum:QuoteTzeentch is a God of Chaos who represents the vitality and volatility of change. Tzeentch is closely associated with sorcery and magic, as well as dynamic mutation, and grand, convoluted scheming. The domains of history, destiny, intrigue and plots are his chief interests, and in pursuit of these aspects he listens to the dreams and hopes of all and watches their plans take form. He is not content to merely observe, however, and chooses to interfere in the skeins of fate in order to fulfill his own, unknowably complex schemes. Tzeentch is known by an endless multitude of names, but the chief titles he bears are the Changer of the Ways, the Master of Fortune, the Great Conspirator and the Architect of Fate.
It seems to fit the game perfectly, although the old one who can influence events might already fulfil a similar role
Of all the intellectual property we tiptoe around we stay far, far away from Games Workshop and their legion of Chaos Lawyers. Tragically we discovered that "the laughing god" is also mentioned in Warhammer Lore, but since it is also referenced in classical myth we are being assured it is safe to use.
48 hours and counting, the Kickstarter is coming to a close.
Post by: Zangi on October 20, 2014, 12:53:58 pm
Post by: Rutee on October 20, 2014, 01:38:13 pm
Incidentally, I'm probably voting for the Dragonkin. I love the idea of partially-justified bioweapons turning on their masters (And then, of course, diverting them back to their correct position. Or maybe just having them murdered.) The rest, don't know yet, will worry about when the voting starts and we have more information.
Post by: rylen on October 20, 2014, 02:35:37 pm
Ascension sounds neat. How will it interact with scenarios?
I'm looking forward to galleons and galleys and catamarans and more. How hard would it be to create an aquatic or semi-aquatic race? A periodically accessible POI. (Usually drowned landbridge. Rises from the depths. etc.)
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 20, 2014, 03:53:42 pm
Those are some nice maps. Will she also be doing the game-manipulated assets for the procedural?
Ascension sounds neat. How will it interact with scenarios?
I'm looking forward to galleons and galleys and catamarans and more. How hard would it be to create an aquatic or semi-aquatic race? A periodically accessible POI. (Usually drowned landbridge. Rises from the depths. etc.)
Nope she's just doing the high-level cartography work for the scenarios. We have three separate artists who have produced fantastic sample assets for the map so far, one of them is hex-based along the lines of a war game and it resembles the current map but with flatter, but higher quality, sprites. The other two are more stylized/painterly. We'll be getting those up on the forums within the week for people to review.
If you enable the Rival Old Ones then the Ascended will be in that scenario (unless you play as him). Their wont' be any custom interactions with the scenarios, rather the struggle of the Ascended will play out across your normal game.
If you mean a "Map Race" (a race that can have a civilization on the map), it is always somewhat tedious to make a race because of how complex they are but we DO have an aquatic flag. It is not fully tested as of yet, but is part of the second Scenario so it will be getting a thorough testing.
You can raise/lower landmasses or just create artificial bridges, it's also a big part of the second scenario (it pivots around a rising isle that lures adventurers there) so it's very extensive.
Post by: puke on October 20, 2014, 03:59:06 pm
I would like to follow the development of this game, but I do not have time in the next six months to actively play or make constructive comments on the beta.
I would, however, like to read the development forum as it updates. Is there a backer level that would allow me to do so? I do not feel the need to post or have input, as I do not have the time to devote to this in any meaningful way.
I would like to passively consume some of this information, as small-shop product and software development and especially game development are in my interests.
Is there any sort of backer level that would let me read the dev forum? Will this be publicly readable, or will someone need beta access to even see changelogs and what the dev's are posting to the community?
Post by: Rutee on October 20, 2014, 04:09:58 pm
More questions: I want to understand the basic mechanism and realize I do not: Is Ancient Power just currency, or also a timer to awakening? I know you can use it to fund agents, for instance, and some other actions, and if it's also your timer to awakening it adds some pretty ... harsh bits to some actions. I guess sometimes, you just REALLY need something done, if some actions are done with 2 or 3 Ancient Power.
Can Agents be de-activated? If so, what is the cost? I assume that the answer is either 'no' or 'yes, and high', or there'd be no incentive not to use all the early game agents and then switch as you get betterer options. I'm aware that you can willfully have them killed by continuing to take very high risk actions as a sort of Great Conqueror, but I mean more simply (and potentially with the option to rehire in the future)
How does Profile work? How much of a risk does it represent? From what I've seen, a Profile is either a modifier to having your nature as an agent of ULTIMATE EVIL seen, or a modifier to Fame gain. Can you reasonably have, say, the Peddler wander around with any help whatsoever and Not Be Seen? Similarly, are there Minions who really just don't attract attention (and similarly don't really have high power and can only realistically screen or MAYBE kill/provide some labor)? I imagine that, if not heroes, you can find sellswords or thugs for a Peddler to not instantly die when confronted, but still have at least a bit of cheap labor.
How much do your resources matter? How do you gain resources? You don't control a whole lot directly for a while, so I was curious. Gold's utility is obvious, as is Lore's, but what are you going to do with food? Lumber? Edit: What you can plausibly do with it given 100% free reign is one thing, I'm wondering what we know the game actually permits right now.
There's what, 22 agents now, counting stretch goals and Backers? What's the highest amount you can POSSIBLY get [Edit: In-game]? What about REasonably? Idle curiosity, this one. [Edit: Obviously the potential number of agents to exist at all is incalculable, thanks to modding]
Not really a question, but reading the older posts did remind me how much other gamers sometimes amuse me. Ah, my people.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 20, 2014, 04:57:45 pm
Okay, I've procrastinated as far as I can.
I would like to follow the development of this game, but I do not have time in the next six months to actively play or make constructive comments on the beta.
I would, however, like to read the development forum as it updates. Is there a backer level that would allow me to do so? I do not feel the need to post or have input, as I do not have the time to devote to this in any meaningful way.
I would like to passively consume some of this information, as small-shop product and software development and especially game development are in my interests.
Is there any sort of backer level that would let me read the dev forum? Will this be publicly readable, or will someone need beta access to even see changelogs and what the dev's are posting to the community?
Just being a regular backer will get you into the forums where we'll be posting videos and talking about the progress of the game. The Beta Backer forums will mostly be for game direction, asset review, and discussion of bugs.
Can you, the player, skip the emergent-ness of the Ascended and just add them? I imagine if I bend a game to having a Lesser Evil eat me who wants to eat me, it'd be hard to fail, but it seems needlessly time consuming. I actually have no interest in this and may never see them (I have a habit of abandoning games well before I lose, which is a poor habit, I'm aware), but I'm pretty sure others will care.
More questions: I want to understand the basic mechanism and realize I do not: Is Ancient Power just currency, or also a timer to awakening? I know you can use it to fund agents, for instance, and some other actions, and if it's also your timer to awakening it adds some pretty ... harsh bits to some actions. I guess sometimes, you just REALLY need something done, if some actions are done with 2 or 3 Ancient Power.
Can Agents be de-activated? If so, what is the cost? I assume that the answer is either 'no' or 'yes, and high', or there'd be no incentive not to use all the early game agents and then switch as you get betterer options. I'm aware that you can willfully have them killed by continuing to take very high risk actions as a sort of Great Conqueror, but I mean more simply (and potentially with the option to rehire in the future)
How does Profile work? How much of a risk does it represent? From what I've seen, a Profile is either a modifier to having your nature as an agent of ULTIMATE EVIL seen, or a modifier to Fame gain. Can you reasonably have, say, the Peddler wander around with any help whatsoever and Not Be Seen? Similarly, are there Minions who really just don't attract attention (and similarly don't really have high power and can only realistically screen or MAYBE kill/provide some labor)? I imagine that, if not heroes, you can find sellswords or thugs for a Peddler to not instantly die when confronted, but still have at least a bit of cheap labor.
How much do your resources matter? How do you gain resources? You don't control a whole lot directly for a while, so I was curious. Gold's utility is obvious, as is Lore's, but what are you going to do with food? Lumber? Edit: What you can plausibly do with it given 100% free reign is one thing, I'm wondering what we know the game actually permits right now.
There's what, 22 agents now, counting stretch goals and Backers? What's the highest amount you can POSSIBLY get [Edit: In-game]? What about REasonably? Idle curiosity, this one. [Edit: Obviously the potential number of agents to exist at all is incalculable, thanks to modding]
Not really a question, but reading the older posts did remind me how much other gamers sometimes amuse me. Ah, my people.
The Ascended may be a mechanic that most people never encounter, but if you play through the game multiple times you are bound to encounter it - the Ascended can rise not just from slaying you but ALSO from slaying another Rival Old One. However, in creating the Ascended we will expose all of the effects necessary in the editor for another person to make a similar fashioned Old One if they had that desire.
Ancient Power is both a timer and a currency, the timer element is your "maximum available" and inside that you your "available Ancient Power" fluctuates. It is definitely a precious commodity, and choosing when to use it is crucial to your strategy.
You cannot de-activate an Agent, though you can deliciously sacrifice them which accomplishes the same net effect. You cannot deactive and then reactivate.
One of the main effects of Profile is that it adds to the Heroes' skill in hunting you, having a very high profile means a Hero may find you in two or three turns, whereas Low Profile you may see them snooping around but have plenty of time to finish your business and go. Absolutely, the Peddler could simply wander around without any profile and no one would take any notice. Many of the diplomatic or infiltration focused minions do not raise profile, and in fact some can lower it - and in answer to the second part you will find most often you are recruiting Minions for their out of combat ability than their combat ability.
You gain resources by several methods - you could directly control a production method (boring), but you can also raid villages or cities for their stored goods, siphon them from a nation, rob trade routes, or pillage the land. Food can feed human armies, or more often is used to gain corruption in famine-starved cities ('oh look, here's some food for you!') - lumber can be used to build a navy, or to construct some unique buildings or Elite Units.
The current max at one time is 10 for the Old One with the most Agent slots, but most other Old Ones are significantly lower. You can reasonably expect to go through 8-10 on a standard play through, the number fluctuates a lot based on balance.
Post by: Rutee on October 20, 2014, 06:44:39 pm
Quote
Ancient Power is both a timer and a currency, the timer element is your "maximum available" and inside that you your "available Ancient Power" fluctuates. It is definitely a precious commodity, and choosing when to use it is crucial to your strategy.
Hm, so spending Ancient Power does not cause you to remain asleep? I realized that was possible, so I was wondering if the long-term costs vs. short term gains you guys seem to talk about was that, vs. 'You accomplish it quick and easy but with lots of clues for Heroes to figure out'. This is a sincere question, since I think I missed some foundational conceits, but the game's basic concept really appeals to me, so I'm glad to throw money at it.
Unrelated, what ridiculous scenarios do people want to include via modding? I'm a bad person, so aside from Touhous, I seriously wonder if it'd be possible to do Earthbound as a Scenario. The problem is I'd actually feel really bad putting in a way to crush those cheeky kids.
Post by: Jalak on October 20, 2014, 08:18:16 pm
Also, are the abilities that these ascended are going to have different from the abilities that the normal old ones get, or are they essentially taking the abilities from different old ones that already exist and just mix up the order in which they get them with maybe a name change and the order of which they can use them?
Another question aimed at the official scenarios; you mentioned that one of them was based around an island (or continent) suddenly rising up from the sea. What is the method planned for this new land to be treated with the panicked curiosity that attracts colonials and explorers like it would garner in real life?
Post by: puke on October 20, 2014, 08:50:24 pm
If the process to raise the island isn't directly inspired by The Magic Candle, I'm going home.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 20, 2014, 09:11:00 pm
QuoteAncient Power is both a timer and a currency, the timer element is your "maximum available" and inside that you your "available Ancient Power" fluctuates. It is definitely a precious commodity, and choosing when to use it is crucial to your strategy.
Hm, so spending Ancient Power does not cause you to remain asleep? I realized that was possible, so I was wondering if the long-term costs vs. short term gains you guys seem to talk about was that, vs. 'You accomplish it quick and easy but with lots of clues for Heroes to figure out'. This is a sincere question, since I think I missed some foundational conceits, but the game's basic concept really appeals to me, so I'm glad to throw money at it.
Unrelated, what ridiculous scenarios do people want to include via modding? I'm a bad person, so aside from Touhous, I seriously wonder if it'd be possible to do Earthbound as a Scenario. The problem is I'd actually feel really bad putting in a way to crush those cheeky kids.
I already mentioned wanting to do a Scramble for Africa scenario somewhere back with a mix of powerful but isolated colonial entities and various populous but diverse tribes of indigenous people. With custom gods designed to influence the different groups in different ways (fomenting destructive greed in the colonials, maybe getting them to mine too greedily and too deep? or getting hte tribals riled up.)
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 20, 2014, 09:37:34 pm
QuoteAncient Power is both a timer and a currency, the timer element is your "maximum available" and inside that you your "available Ancient Power" fluctuates. It is definitely a precious commodity, and choosing when to use it is crucial to your strategy.
Hm, so spending Ancient Power does not cause you to remain asleep? I realized that was possible, so I was wondering if the long-term costs vs. short term gains you guys seem to talk about was that, vs. 'You accomplish it quick and easy but with lots of clues for Heroes to figure out'. This is a sincere question, since I think I missed some foundational conceits, but the game's basic concept really appeals to me, so I'm glad to throw money at it.
Unrelated, what ridiculous scenarios do people want to include via modding? I'm a bad person, so aside from Touhous, I seriously wonder if it'd be possible to do Earthbound as a Scenario. The problem is I'd actually feel really bad putting in a way to crush those cheeky kids.
Coupling ancient power usage to sleep timer ended up being too punishing, the clues you drop when you directly touch the world serve as a painful enough compromise.
In a world where ancient mad gods are a tangible thing, people might be less likely to colonize random islands emerging from the sea.
If the process to raise the island isn't directly inspired by The Magic Candle, I'm going home.
It's those crazy adventurers, never know any better
So what sort of system is there going to be to make sure that these ascended don't become over/under-powered compared to the rest of the old ones (outside of how over/under-powered they're supposed to be)? I remember there being talk of a necromancer lesser evil, so if it were to become an ascended, what would stop it from being just as unbalanced as the death god you had to cut?
Also, are the abilities that these ascended are going to have different from the abilities that the normal old ones get, or are they essentially taking the abilities from different old ones that already exist and just mix up the order in which they get them with maybe a name change and the order of which they can use them?
Another question aimed at the official scenarios; you mentioned that one of them was based around an island (or continent) suddenly rising up from the sea. What is the method planned for this new land to be treated with the panicked curiosity that attracts colonials and explorers like it would garner in real life?
There won't be, the Ascended one is meant to be a special, and unique gameplay element for people who want more consistency between the campaigns (to level up and build their Ancient One). We will be attaching "effects" to existing abilities to alter them slightly, and creating some unique fusion abilities for specific combinations.
Adventurers will flock to the island if they are bold enough, but if few return the "threat" of the island increases luring only the powerful or foolish to land on its shores.
Post by: i2amroy on October 20, 2014, 09:50:59 pm
*Sees the money at exactly $75,000*
*YAY! :D*
Post by: Jalak on October 20, 2014, 10:12:23 pm
Post by: ventuswings on October 20, 2014, 10:25:00 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 20, 2014, 11:18:18 pm
That's almost 300 bucks an hour not accounting for the dead eight hours or so tonight. Shit!
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 12:48:07 am
Post by: Jalak on October 21, 2014, 01:26:53 am
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 01:30:55 am
Post by: Lapoleon on October 21, 2014, 02:39:37 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 21, 2014, 03:34:10 am
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 03:47:50 am
I do hope Cthulhu gets some custom events with the sea, it's kind of a thing for him, isn't it?
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 04:05:32 am
That wouldn't be much fun. He got punked by a fishing boat in canon, and for a long time an african elephant stampede was a surefire way to kill him by the rules. :3Actually, going by what I read the boat just passed through his head without any harm done.
I do hope Cthulhu gets some custom events with the sea, it's kind of a thing for him, isn't it?
But that's beside the point.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 21, 2014, 05:39:23 am
I figuse Big C would be a mix of a dream-inducing madness, watery malarkies, corrupting cults and mental takeovers.
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 06:49:01 am
Hey, is anyone but The Laughing God going to have abilities that interact with cults much by default? It's going to be weird if not. I'd think Azlan and indeed Cthulhu would have a good go at it. It'll also make adding one of the closest things I have to a religious figure as a GOO harder if it can't be done through mod tools (And is probably the only serious reason I have to vote against Moloch atm).
Who the devil are the 6 default GOOs anyway? Cthulhu is obvious (Even if I don't know his actual gameplay schtick yet), Azlan is one I recall (Focused on subtle manipulation on a super long scale because he only has like 3 agents and a super long spawn timer), then Sisyphus (I know his fluff, and that his abilities tie back to your genned scenarios for him), Karth (Orc God of War who wakes up fast, and needs to consolidate fast), and Belial (The baseline dude who is more meant for newer players but is still supposed to be good). What am I forgetting? Or is the answer 'we don't know'?
Post by: GobbieMarauder on October 21, 2014, 07:01:30 am
few/no casualties
Aren't his rules "Cthulhu eats 1d6 Investigators a turn?"
Also I'm pretty sure Cthulhu isn't in, given Azlan is Not!Cthulhu. The last one we know of that I recall is the yet-unnamed Death God.
EDIT: "Each round 1D3 investigators are scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws to die hideously."
Post by: Jalak on October 21, 2014, 07:09:37 am
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 07:29:32 am
Hence the elephant stampede. Not trivial to engineer, but valid by the rules and basically not resistable. I suppose someone has to be present to try keeping them on track, unless i'ts the modern era, but hey. The trick is I don't recall, out of hand, how to reduce POW.few/no casualties"EDIT: "Each round 1D3 investigators are scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws to die hideously."
Quote
Basically the four old ones are Karth, Belial, Sisyphus and Azlan (who is Cthulhu, actually). As far as we know, we're going to have a vote for who the fifth old one is going to be from the three ideas put forward. And then there's the Death God that they still need to balance, so he may get back in. The Terror of the Sea stretch goal also mentions the possibility of having an extra race or old one put in as well (presumably also from the stretch goal ideas), so the game we're going to get in total is going to be 5-7.I thought it was 6, + Stretch goals? I may have misread that. I mean, 5 is a fine number since people will be modding them in like hotcakes (I mean, Sauron, the lovecraftian pantheons, whateverhisname is in WoT, and others are basically guaranteed), I'm just curious.
Edit: It's KDG saying in the last couple of days that 6 is the number they cut it down to *after cutting Moloch and the like*. So I'm definitely not insane (for this reason).
Post by: Rose on October 21, 2014, 07:30:14 am
Post by: bulborbish on October 21, 2014, 08:00:20 am
Post by: Denim on October 21, 2014, 08:37:50 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 08:55:13 am
I'm pretty sure with his physical form down and few/no casualties, there's ways to muck with his POW? My memory's bad and I don't recall much of CoC.
Hey, is anyone but The Laughing God going to have abilities that interact with cults much by default? It's going to be weird if not. I'd think Azlan and indeed Cthulhu would have a good go at it. It'll also make adding one of the closest things I have to a religious figure as a GOO harder if it can't be done through mod tools (And is probably the only serious reason I have to vote against Moloch atm).
Who the devil are the 6 default GOOs anyway? Cthulhu is obvious (Even if I don't know his actual gameplay schtick yet), Azlan is one I recall (Focused on subtle manipulation on a super long scale because he only has like 3 agents and a super long spawn timer), then Sisyphus (I know his fluff, and that his abilities tie back to your genned scenarios for him), Karth (Orc God of War who wakes up fast, and needs to consolidate fast), and Belial (The baseline dude who is more meant for newer players but is still supposed to be good). What am I forgetting? Or is the answer 'we don't know'?
We're throwing up a summary of them on the KS page today. Though only The Laughing God begins with a cult, any Old One can send his agents out to infiltrate a cult, start a religion, etc.
The Death God is definitely in, he just needs some.... work.
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 09:58:40 am
We're throwing up a summary of them on the KS page today. Though only The Laughing God begins with a cult, any Old One can send his agents out to infiltrate a cult, start a religion, etc.
The Death God is definitely in, he just needs some.... work.
I may be misunderstanding how abilities work, but don't they affect the world in general, in different ways for different things? If not disregard, if so wouldn't cults be part of that for everyone, even if they don't have one at this time?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 10:40:24 am
We're throwing up a summary of them on the KS page today. Though only The Laughing God begins with a cult, any Old One can send his agents out to infiltrate a cult, start a religion, etc.
The Death God is definitely in, he just needs some.... work.
I may be misunderstanding how abilities work, but don't they affect the world in general, in different ways for different things? If not disregard, if so wouldn't cults be part of that for everyone, even if they don't have one at this time?
I'm not sure I understand the question - Cults are formed as an extreme element of an existing Religion, they choose one of the God's Aspects and have abilities based around it. They spread from POI to POI to further their agenda, which is based on the Aspect selected. The world may begin with multiple cults, or it may begin with none depending on the scenario and settings - others may emerge through general gameplay OR by an Agent successfully starting a cult.
The Laughing God begins with a cult already in existence under his control, and has powers that augment the abilities and spread of that cult - other Old Ones may interact with cults via Agents but are limited to the standard abilities.
Post by: Romanul on October 21, 2014, 11:23:38 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 01:55:57 pm
Could you post just one more update explaining (giving more info about) the last goal? When you did same with the dragon race people got interested. Maybe it will help reach the last goal.
We have absolutely no assets for the last two goals considering they are the stretchiest of the stretchy, so at best we would be posting some re-used art with blocks of text. We are thinking about it, but right now we are still receiving a lot of money from new backers and we like having the Cartography update be the first thing they see since it speaks to the game's potential and is attractive at a glance. One of the main reasons people did not pledge originally is because they didn't like the map, and alleviating that concern has seemed to be highly rewarding.
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 02:01:28 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 21, 2014, 02:19:59 pm
Not that I cannot see them being great additions, it just isn't how they are written.
Edit: I think I'll leave this like this >_< given that I am technically criticizing the people who are making this... right to their face... on a board I wish to be welcome to.
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 02:25:57 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 21, 2014, 02:27:07 pm
Fortunately, I recall them saying at some point that all the add-ins are choosable if you want to enable them or not, I think.
Well... it isn't the "the game is worse" kind of stretch goals. More of a "meh" then anything else.
Besides why would you want to turn it off anyhow? It is an outright improvement just not a "HOLY COW! Lets raise that cash!" improvement.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 03:46:45 pm
Well to admit Human cultures and the Ascended seem like unnecessary additions (well... as written) so I am not too invested in it being hit.
Not that I cannot see them being great additions, it just isn't how they are written.
Edit: I think I'll leave this like this >_< given that I am technically criticizing the people who are making this... right to their face... on a board I wish to be welcome to.
haha, no not at all a criticism - these stretch goals are designed to enhanced the game for a certain portion of our players so it is understandable that others would have no interest - in addition since the game has yet to be played by the majority of the backers it is hard to see exactly what foreign cultures would be a unique, and valued addition.
The Ascended is for the "hardcore" player who wants an extended challenge to the game, and greater continuity throughout their play throughs. The cultures, while adding diversity to any player, will really help people wanting to work on specific historic or mythological scenarios. We had worked on a Roman and Japanese system prior, so just imagining how the rich mythological additions would interact with our current systems makes it very appealing to us. In addition, people had suggested numerous other historical time periods/cultures, and while I know people will be working to mod these in themselves its hard to beat the quality of including it in the game at launch.
Post by: dennislp3 on October 21, 2014, 03:49:56 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 21, 2014, 03:57:31 pm
Will the Rival Old Ones change the implementation of unique late game agents like Shadowmere and Baron Greywind? I know you suggested both of them (or at least Greywind?) can be released without your intervention and begin acting independently. Will their status change more towards the Lesser Evils you're adding or will they remain how they are?
On the same note, will it be possible to bind the new lesser evils to your will and turn them into agents the way heroes can become agents without being on the hardcoded agent list?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 04:05:25 pm
I had a question but I can't remember what it was now. Maybe I'll remember it at s--oh!
Will the Rival Old Ones change the implementation of unique late game agents like Shadowmere and Baron Greywind? I know you suggested both of them (or at least Greywind?) can be released without your intervention and begin acting independently. Will their status change more towards the Lesser Evils you're adding or will they remain how they are?
On the same note, will it be possible to bind the new lesser evils to your will and turn them into agents the way heroes can become agents without being on the hardcoded agent list?
The addition of Rival Old Ones makes your actions even more pressing, because not only are you battling against heroes and the rising knowledge of your return, but also now competing with your peers for the powerful Agents that can make or break your strategy. However, they will retain their playstyle - but with additional independent possibilities related to the war over their influence. They won't go down the path of the Lesser Evils where they pursue extremely complex agendas and play the Old Ones against one another.
ALL lesser evils are designed to be recruitable as agents - the question of whether or not you trust them is up to you. Unlike the majority of Agents, Lesser Evils may flee your control or even betray you (unless controlled by some mechanism) if your interests clash with theirs.
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 04:36:20 pm
Quote
I'm not sure I understand the question - Cults are formed as an extreme element of an existing Religion, they choose one of the God's Aspects and have abilities based around it. They spread from POI to POI to further their agenda, which is based on the Aspect selected. The world may begin with multiple cults, or it may begin with none depending on the scenario and settings - others may emerge through general gameplay OR by an Agent successfully starting a cult.Okay, I'm asking the wrong question to start with. What do Abilities give you, the player? I assume it's not just a way to spend Ancient Power, since then you wouldn't necessarily use them because THANKS HERO SHERLOCK.
The Laughing God begins with a cult already in existence under his control, and has powers that augment the abilities and spread of that cult - other Old Ones may interact with cults via Agents but are limited to the standard abilities.
Unrelated, do you and the Rival Old Ones share the same Chosen One?
Post by: ventuswings on October 21, 2014, 04:43:26 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 05:15:44 pm
Pardon the intrusion. Do you have any projections on when the recorded devlogs are going to be available? I thought it might be good time to bring it up again since we're nearing end of the Kickstarter.
Not really any projections, but it shouldn't be long after the end of KS - just need to get everyone up on the forums and they will be loaded up there. I'll also be streaming development and testing once we get back down to it.
QuoteI'm not sure I understand the question - Cults are formed as an extreme element of an existing Religion, they choose one of the God's Aspects and have abilities based around it. They spread from POI to POI to further their agenda, which is based on the Aspect selected. The world may begin with multiple cults, or it may begin with none depending on the scenario and settings - others may emerge through general gameplay OR by an Agent successfully starting a cult.Okay, I'm asking the wrong question to start with. What do Abilities give you, the player? I assume it's not just a way to spend Ancient Power, since then you wouldn't necessarily use them because THANKS HERO SHERLOCK.
The Laughing God begins with a cult already in existence under his control, and has powers that augment the abilities and spread of that cult - other Old Ones may interact with cults via Agents but are limited to the standard abilities.
Unrelated, do you and the Rival Old Ones share the same Chosen One?
Abilities are split between Passive effects that change gameplay, Active abilities that are powerful but cost Ancient Power and generally produce clues, and Imbues to make your Agents more useful to you.
Yes, the Chosen One is fated to save the world - just with Rival Old Ones in play his job gets a lot harder (though he will be getting significant bonuses if he puts down an Old One, so be careful of giving him free reign.)
Post by: lijacote on October 21, 2014, 05:37:59 pm
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 06:24:03 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 07:46:44 pm
$80000 has been breached. What the fuck this is amazing
Yeah, this is incredible - the concept has resonated with a much greater audience than we expected. So many map styles to choose from now that our budget has expanded drastically, we're busy getting all the styles up onto the forums with a description of the strengths/weaknesses and technical considerations of each.
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 08:18:19 pm
Quote from: King Dinosaur Games
Abilities are split between Passive effects that change gameplay, Active abilities that are powerful but cost Ancient Power and generally produce clues, and Imbues to make your Agents more useful to you.I see. How broad are the passives? Karth's are presumably focused on the Orcs and on War, but presumably in regard to the Orcs he has something to help them develop their culture, not just pure stomping power.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 21, 2014, 08:30:00 pm
Quote from: King Dinosaur GamesAbilities are split between Passive effects that change gameplay, Active abilities that are powerful but cost Ancient Power and generally produce clues, and Imbues to make your Agents more useful to you.I see. How broad are the passives? Karth's are presumably focused on the Orcs and on War, but presumably in regard to the Orcs he has something to help them develop their culture, not just pure stomping power.
They can be incredibly broad, any global modifier can be set in a passive - they can also enable custom challenges and events.
Post by: Rutee on October 21, 2014, 09:12:23 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on October 21, 2014, 10:07:42 pm
Post by: Xantalos on October 21, 2014, 10:15:59 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on October 21, 2014, 10:18:53 pm
But I don't really care about that last stretch goal so you're on your own.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 12:45:00 am
So I assume some of the passives have to do with a religion outside of wozzername the Laughing God? Like, not "The ability tree is ABOUT the religion". That is clearly Joker's job. But say, "Karth's got something in there to help him start a religion *with the Orcs*" or "Azlan gets a bonus to subverting the cult regarding around sleep and/or dreams"
We actually didn't have Religion in originally, it was a stretch goal - so Karth imparts bonuses to race (orc)- and no other Old One was designed with religion in mind. We've also kept that divide because it leaves religion as another level of strategy you can undertake, if you wish, instead of focusing on the other core strategies. Antagonizing the gods by stealing their followers might not be the best move, unless you're prepared to deal with the fallout from heaven.
Post by: Xantalos on October 22, 2014, 12:49:26 am
Also, when a non-Azlan Old One wakes up, can we actually walk around the map and fight people face-to-face? I got the impression that that was the case, but I just want to confirm that.
Post by: Rutee on October 22, 2014, 01:10:25 am
I mean take Belial; his agents have some foreknowledge of events that Will Be. I assume that being able to present as a good Diviner is already useful for infiltration and influence gaining overall, but it must be all the moreso for breaking into a god of prophecy's house. Where that isn't a thing, then it doesn't help much, and you can still exploit events you know will come. If his agents can't present as a good diviner (Which is still perfectly plausible, since they could easily only be getting brief, not-understandable DO THIS urges and the like), then it doesn't make sense to add such a bonus. I don't know what's in the abilities, but I find it slightly difficult to believe that there aren't some passives that'd be more useful for this purpose.
Post by: Jalak on October 22, 2014, 03:28:22 am
Is there any chance of some sort of "history viewer" that we can use in-game that lets us view the nations rising and falling, like dwarf fortress does with it's legend map mode?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 04:58:31 am
Unrelated, but Fallout From Heaven sounds like a kickass name for a band.
Also, when a non-Azlan Old One wakes up, can we actually walk around the map and fight people face-to-face? I got the impression that that was the case, but I just want to confirm that.
Most of the Old Ones have corporeal forms when they waken, though some either End the Game or have more unique methods of movement (or not moving).
That's why I was asking; It was a stretch goal, and you hit it, so I was wondering if you'd revisit Abilities of existing GOOS to add in support for it where appropriate. It sounds like Karth doesn't actually need it if I'm understanding the 'bonus to orcs' bit right, and I know anyone else's bonuses besides Laughing GOO are going to be far less and restricted to individual aspects of some existing passives, but it'd make sense to put it in where it's suitable to.
I mean take Belial; his agents have some foreknowledge of events that Will Be. I assume that being able to present as a good Diviner is already useful for infiltration and influence gaining overall, but it must be all the moreso for breaking into a god of prophecy's house. Where that isn't a thing, then it doesn't help much, and you can still exploit events you know will come. If his agents can't present as a good diviner (Which is still perfectly plausible, since they could easily only be getting brief, not-understandable DO THIS urges and the like), then it doesn't make sense to add such a bonus. I don't know what's in the abilities, but I find it slightly difficult to believe that there aren't some passives that'd be more useful for this purpose.
I see where you are coming from, it may make sense to tie this to an imbue on an Agent if we decide to give a thematic bonus.
Since procederal and endless are in, how are you planning on having the nations and POIs tell us about their history? Is there going to be some sort of dynamic encyclopedia in-game that we can look up a generated history on?
Is there any chance of some sort of "history viewer" that we can use in-game that lets us view the nations rising and falling, like dwarf fortress does with it's legend map mode?
POIs, Heroes, Nations, Kings have history panels that should suffice for this - they're rather bland right now (just dumps of text) but we will probably group them up by age and highlight the most important events.
Post by: Jalak on October 22, 2014, 05:53:48 am
Post by: Rutee on October 22, 2014, 06:05:34 am
I'm glad it didn't come out as jibber jabber! Full disclosure, I really care so I can vote for Moloch and still see some support for abilities influencing religions. At least one of the GOOs I want to mod in would really want a religion. Though it's a mystery whether I'll really be able to make her without Tzadar in (I finally remembered his name X3). But even without that, it would legit feel really weird if Aspects that were similar to your god were not things your god were better at manipulating, either metaphysically (For the win-via-godhood) or more viscerally in terms of their followers.
I see where you are coming from, it may make sense to tie this to an imbue on an Agent if we decide to give a thematic bonus.
So, I remembered some of the other stuff you said about religion. What does religion actually do for you, aside from serve as a flashpoint for conflict or wake up Tzadar? Using Karth as an example, it occurs to me that there's really no point in getting the orcs all religious; they already <3 you. Them worshipping you doesn't give you power, since it isn't Dominions, and they're not some sort of window or backdoor into another God somehow, I'm guessing (Since they weren't worshipping anyone else; I imagine other religions are this). Much like with, say, lumber or food, I can definitely see plausible uses. Corruption through followers seems easy, for instance. Using them to stir up conflicts is another. But what else is the sort of thing we can do with them?
Quote
POIs, Heroes, Nations, Kings have history panels that should suffice for this - they're rather bland right now (just dumps of text) but we will probably group them up by age and highlight the most important events.:D
I always love clicking on the history of provinces I've captured some time into the game in EU4.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 22, 2014, 06:23:47 am
So the kickstarter comes to a close in six hours and the new stretch goal is just out of reach. How important is that last $2,000? I'm fine without those culture graphics, but can we see the ascended option added in anyway?
6 hours left and 85000-82991(Kickstarter)-700(Paypal)= 1309$ to go. That seems pretty doable considering the speed at which we've been going.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 06:35:34 am
So the kickstarter comes to a close in six hours and the new stretch goal is just out of reach. How important is that last $2,000? I'm fine without those culture graphics, but can we see the ascended option added in anyway?
The Ascended is a LOT of work, we'd be more likely to let a culture in then commit to the Ascended. Though he is pretty great, so you may see him down the road.
I'm glad it didn't come out as jibber jabber! Full disclosure, I really care so I can vote for Moloch and still see some support for abilities influencing religions. At least one of the GOOs I want to mod in would really want a religion. Though it's a mystery whether I'll really be able to make her without Tzadar in (I finally remembered his name X3). But even without that, it would legit feel really weird if Aspects that were similar to your god were not things your god were better at manipulating, either metaphysically (For the win-via-godhood) or more viscerally in terms of their followers.
I see where you are coming from, it may make sense to tie this to an imbue on an Agent if we decide to give a thematic bonus.
So, I remembered some of the other stuff you said about religion. What does religion actually do for you, aside from serve as a flashpoint for conflict or wake up Tzadar? Using Karth as an example, it occurs to me that there's really no point in getting the orcs all religious; they already <3 you. Them worshipping you doesn't give you power, since it isn't Dominions, and they're not some sort of window or backdoor into another God somehow, I'm guessing (Since they weren't worshipping anyone else; I imagine other religions are this). Much like with, say, lumber or food, I can definitely see plausible uses. Corruption through followers seems easy, for instance. Using them to stir up conflicts is another. But what else is the sort of thing we can do with them?QuotePOIs, Heroes, Nations, Kings have history panels that should suffice for this - they're rather bland right now (just dumps of text) but we will probably group them up by age and highlight the most important events.:D
I always love clicking on the history of provinces I've captured some time into the game in EU4.
Yeah I love that historic narrative, and it gets so much weirder in a game like That Which Sleeps ('Shady Glen was ravaged by Deep Ones in 205.1').
So Religions play two parts in the game, one is the "Hearts and Minds" element of cultures - people who are very religious will likely do what the head of their Religion says - in this sense they function much like a guild but with a much larger basis. On the other hand their are the Gods themselves, some of whom will meddle in the world at their leisure others who will simply ignore their followers pleas - Gods can be spend their faith (accumulated by their aspect - so wars breed faith for the war god) for miracles in the world, which can help or hinder your progress. You can also attempt to battle the Gods in their own realm, but you'll need to "sacrifice" some of your Ancient Power to do this, and you may never recover it. The lower the God's faith, the easier it is to usurp his position - and disrupting his affairs on the mortal plane will lower his defense even further.
Follower's of a faith, as a populace, can be pulled in cultural directions ( change a cultural personality ), can be called to crusade, can lynch people, can riot, can be used as a sacrifice - lots of fun options when you need a massive amount of people. You can also gain sway over the Heroes that call that religion their own, and have them turn against friends or challenge their morality.
So the kickstarter comes to a close in six hours and the new stretch goal is just out of reach. How important is that last $2,000? I'm fine without those culture graphics, but can we see the ascended option added in anyway?
6 hours left and 85000-82991(Kickstarter)-700(Paypal)= 1309$ to go. That seems pretty doable considering the speed at which we've been going.
I have faith
Post by: Sinistar on October 22, 2014, 06:38:58 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on October 22, 2014, 06:52:20 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 07:19:49 am
Backed. I don't have time to go through whole thread right now (dammit you lot, 66 pages!) but I'll just say that I really like the idea this game has. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Pledged as well. It's my first project ever to pledge towards, even though I've been following countless projects. See that as a compliment towards the game and your attitude KDG! :D
Thanks both of you! Can't believe how much quality we're going to be able to add to this game thanks to how successful the Kickstarter has been.
Post by: Mithras on October 22, 2014, 07:33:01 am
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2014, 07:39:04 am
Some having a Abrahamic theme and some having somewhat of an Aztec one.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 08:20:40 am
As I remember you can usurp aspects of a god and gain power from those things, so as the orc GOO you can steal the link between conflict and power while a war god is weak then send your orc hordes rampaging through the countryside to capitalise on that link? Something like that?
Exactly, you need to create the opportunity to usurp a God's aspect - but the God's, like mortals, have personalities that you need to manipulate. God's desperate to protect their flock will deplete their faith quickly if they see their worshipers threatened, but a more apathetic God would need to be manipulated through other means.
I do like that you made sure that not all the old ones are like Lovecraftian ones with some that differ quite a bit.
Some having a Abrahamic theme and some having somewhat of an Aztec one.
When we decided on That Which Sleeps mechanical approach, we realized it was unique enough that it made sense to simply draw on as many inspirations as possible to maximize the simulation possibilities instead of going for a single theme. By using these recognizable but still different archetypes player's can jump in and understand the idea behind the Old One (and the races/cultures/etc) without us having to overwhelm with custom world building.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 22, 2014, 08:52:08 am
Post by: Broken on October 22, 2014, 09:23:50 am
Post by: Sinistar on October 22, 2014, 09:27:02 am
Post by: Lapoleon on October 22, 2014, 09:51:23 am
Post by: Darkmere on October 22, 2014, 09:56:16 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 09:57:53 am
KDG, would it be possible to upgrade my Paypal pledge from Beta tier to Worlbuilder tier by donating another 50$. Just in case the final stretchgoal seems just out of reach?
Absolutely, you can wait and do it up until the beta if you'd like.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 10:00:08 am
Yeah, seems like SEVEN TIMES the starting goal was a pretty successful KS. Congratulations to you guys! I will eagerly await my release-day purchase. :P
Shockingly successful! Thanks to everyone here who helped get this ball rolling and were supremely encouraging in the early stages, as well as everyone who has come in to talk about the game, its design, and the direction to take it in. We will be delivering something special to you all, and it's going to be visually a lot nicer to look at than we ever thought possible thanks to all this support.
Post by: ventuswings on October 22, 2014, 11:41:24 am
Post by: sjm9876 on October 22, 2014, 11:57:26 am
So happy to see you guys have got everything. (Not at all to do with the fact I get more features.... ::) )
This will hopefully be something special :D
Post by: Astfgl66 on October 22, 2014, 12:26:04 pm
I'm eagerly waiting for the next part: asset choosing. I can't wait to see what the updated map style will look like!
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on October 22, 2014, 12:31:20 pm
http://yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.com/
Post by: Scoops Novel on October 22, 2014, 12:54:05 pm
Post by: Xantalos on October 22, 2014, 12:56:00 pm
Post by: Rutee on October 22, 2014, 01:12:28 pm
Post by: Romanul on October 22, 2014, 01:31:09 pm
Post by: Zangi on October 22, 2014, 02:22:05 pm
Ah bloody hell, I was seriously going to upgrade to modder tools and forgot to. I don't suppose there's still a way to do so? Regardless, cool beans. I wanna see the devlogs too, btw, I just wasn't gonna ask when you'd made it super clear that you weren't doing it til the end of KS :3I was actually thinking of doing that too, checked in an hour too late.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 04:57:17 pm
Ah bloody hell, I was seriously going to upgrade to modder tools and forgot to. I don't suppose there's still a way to do so? Regardless, cool beans. I wanna see the devlogs too, btw, I just wasn't gonna ask when you'd made it super clear that you weren't doing it til the end of KS :3
You can add to your pledge up until beta starts by using PayPal, just make sure you use the same email address for both KS and PayPal.
With $85,593 through KS alone the fund-raising has ended. Congrats for this massive success!
I'm eagerly waiting for the next part: asset choosing. I can't wait to see what the updated map style will look like!
So many assets coming in, it's going to be a difficult choice - we're still trying to gather more "cartography" style vs hex/tiles.
Post by: nenjin on October 22, 2014, 05:07:23 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 22, 2014, 05:19:08 pm
I think I remember you guys saying the demo might show up around the same time as Scenario Viewer, or it might show up a few weeks after, or it might show up with hte beta in December, or it might not show up at all. Now that the Kickstarter is winding down can we get an update on that?
Post by: Darkmere on October 22, 2014, 05:27:14 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 22, 2014, 05:49:16 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 22, 2014, 06:30:23 pm
I'm so excite, but I kind of lost track of that Very Excite Thing that's been a Very Elusive Thing.
I think I remember you guys saying the demo might show up around the same time as Scenario Viewer, or it might show up a few weeks after, or it might show up with hte beta in December, or it might not show up at all. Now that the Kickstarter is winding down can we get an update on that?
We need to settle the map assets first and take stock for a reasonable timeframe - we're expecting to have a report out to everyone in about two weeks. I would imagine we'd end up taking the Beta Build and making a short demo, or we may just not produce a demo given how critical time is now that we have so many more expectations to fit within our current timeframe.
On that note....please post the funding-killing videos now, plox. :P
We're going to toss them up on the backer forums. However, we plan on getting back to a "regular" schedule of a Dev Log every two weeks that will go up on YouTube once the assets are integrated.
We've also just learned that it takes 7 days from the end of the KS before we will have the final backer information, so we'll have to post an update saying people probably won't be up on the forums until then - but in that case I'll try to make sure everyone gets their information that day.
Probably going to be MIA for two days - taking a computer break after all this.
Post by: Xantalos on October 22, 2014, 06:43:44 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 23, 2014, 06:13:44 am
In any case, Amazon cleared that my payment went through. Hurray! You know what, treat yourself with my... 25. You can get a good goat to sacrifice with that, I'll tell you.
Post by: Sinistar on October 23, 2014, 06:24:34 am
I for one welcome our pan-galactic, mind-devouring Eldtritch Overlords. Down with capitalist pigs and filthy bourgeoisie! We are all equal before Them.
That is, equally insignificant once They awake from Their slumber.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 23, 2014, 07:34:31 am
Uh, have I missed something - backer forums? Are they just not up yet, or was there a link I didn't see in the updates?
In any case, Amazon cleared that my payment went through. Hurray! You know what, treat yourself with my... 25. You can get a good goat to sacrifice with that, I'll tell you.
We get the finalized backer report 7 days after the KS first tries to charge people, then we can load everything up into the forum.
Post by: Jalak on October 23, 2014, 07:55:28 am
Speaking of modding, are there any plans for a devlog explaining how to mod in an old one, specifically?
Post by: rylen on October 23, 2014, 04:11:32 pm
Since you've said that there's no blank slate old one we can use to play as an ascended straight away, could I just design one with the mod tools and force it in the ascended slot myself and it would work just as well otherwise?Back on page 23 I asked an Old One modding question and on 24 I got a detailed answer. That might help. I, also, am looking forward to the new devlogs and hope we'll get a few talking about what KDG learned while balancing the scenarios. I suspect it is easy to create an "of course I win" Old One or an impossible scenario. Hordes of orcs shaking their fists at the sea comes to mind.
Speaking of modding, are there any plans for a devlog explaining how to mod in an old one, specifically?
Post by: Lapoleon on October 23, 2014, 06:18:57 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 23, 2014, 07:21:16 pm
Since you've said that there's no blank slate old one we can use to play as an ascended straight away, could I just design one with the mod tools and force it in the ascended slot myself and it would work just as well otherwise?
Speaking of modding, are there any plans for a devlog explaining how to mod in an old one, specifically?
We intend to release comprehensive videos to accompany the Beta Modding Release - but that won't be for some time
Hey KDG, enjoy your sleep, it is well reserved. Just in case you do check our forum I saw that there was a new update on Kickstarter which was marked as backers only. Since I'm one of the Paypal backers I'm now burning with curiosity to find out what's in that update. It might be a good idea (if you've got a list of Paypal-backers) to mail them the info in these sorts of updates.
We put the update up on Reddit for now, in the future all updates will go through the Forums (once everyone is up on them)
Post by: Jalak on October 25, 2014, 10:16:55 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 26, 2014, 02:58:22 am
Post by: Romanul on October 26, 2014, 03:44:38 am
So, any news?
The first step is for KS/Amazon to finish processing all the pledges (should take about 7 days) and then the TWS forum will be up and running. If all goes well, next weekend we should have the forum up and we can proceed from there.
Post by: Rutee on October 26, 2014, 08:54:36 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 27, 2014, 09:13:34 am
So, any news?
The first step is for KS/Amazon to finish processing all the pledges (should take about 7 days) and then the TWS forum will be up and running. If all goes well, next weekend we should have the forum up and we can proceed from there.
This is where we are at right now - lots of art assets coming in which will be put up on the forum when it's available.
Post by: wer6 on October 27, 2014, 01:44:30 pm
Post by: Jalak on October 27, 2014, 09:15:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 27, 2014, 09:35:11 pm
With better graphics though, I think the bar on it could go up.
Post by: Rutee on October 28, 2014, 12:49:39 am
Post by: rylen on October 28, 2014, 09:45:25 pm
The Physician is a false-front agent who gains influence by removing problems. But who is willing to create the harms that let him be a hero.
"He enjoys, perhaps too much, life and death red in his hands."
Inspiration: Frank Burns from the book M*A*S*H. Unlike the TV character, he is competent surgeon who thinks the war is great. He is skilled at open heart massage, the way to save someone whose heart stopped in the days before defibrillators. And, the narrator believes, willing allow his patients to drift into danger so he can dramatically rescue them.
Stats: Don't know. Something like the Peddler most likely. Decent but not great for Infiltration and Command. Definitely not combat oriented.
Scheme: Again, I don't know how these work. Either something emphasizing his skills in medicine or how he can use those skills to gain people trust. I'm partial to The Great Healer where, once he gains the trust of several nations, even more start trusting him because they've heard of the good he does.
Interactions:
-With Heroes: If he approaches a wounded Hero he gains extremely low level Infiltration (medical history) and gets the following choices:
1) Trust in my skills. (Wound's severity is reduced. Speed of damage healing increased for a bit. Timer is started to keep this event from firing constantly (see Quests.) Agent gets influence with Hero's groups and Profile improved. No clue is generated.)
2) I'll see what I can do. (Speed of damage healing increased and timer started. Possibly minor influence and Profile improvements, but this isn't something that really gets the Hero bragging about the Agent. Extremely difficult clue left since he isn't doing his best work.)
3) You're lucky we met in time. (Wound's severity is increased leading to possible amputations or death. Possible minor influence and Profile improvements. Leave difficult clue, but see Investigate quest below.)
4) Old one specific option. A plague god could make the hero a disease carrier. A mind one may do Manchurian Candidate programming. A war god could plant the seeds of berserker rage.
This is the core of what he does: move damage around. He gains trust by helping weaker heroes with minor problems and then spends it to cripple the key opposition.
-With armies: May attach himself to an army causing it to suffer fewer casualties in fighting. Influence with the controlling nation goes up. With the Great Healer scheme, may even improve influence with the opposing nation, since the Agent obviously wants to help everyone.
Again, moving damage around. This time making an army more durable than it appears, wearing down the other. Good for escalating conflict between nations by drawing out a war. Also useful when your armies start marching.
-With the map: Does various ill health, miasma, and poisoning actions more quickly and with harder to detect clues than other agents.
He also can remove these conditions himself, gaining influence, lowering Profile, and disguising or eliminating any clues left behind. Yes, this means he can poison a village and then swoop in and save it.
Note, there are lines he cannot safely cross. Once someone massacres an orphanage, it doesn't matter how many soup kitchens they organize.
I suspect this interaction will see heavy use. He will gain trust by helping out. Then, since the guy who knows how to cure a disease is obviously an expert in lots of other stuff, will bend ears with his advice.
Quests: His recruitment causes two specific quests.
First) Seek aid from The Physician.
-Trigger: Hero is at least moderately wounded (no flesh wounds), is within N POIs, The Physician is respected by the Hero, and The Physician has a low profile (Hero has heard the man will be able to help.)
OR
-Trigger B: as above, but Hero must be severely wounded and The Physician has no higher than a medium profile but the Hero has no specific anti-Physician knowledge. (Perhaps the things they say are just rumors.)
-Behavior: Hero moves towards Physician and triggers the Hero Interaction (see above).
Second) Investigate The Physician
-Trigger: Hero* has a friend who dies or retires shortly after treatment by The Physician. (Ideally it might become available even if The Physician isn't the cause. Health is mysterious.) If the number of victims is low, this should be a low probability choice; but it should rise with their numbers.
-Behavior: Hero seeks places Physician did things. The clue from Physician-Hero Interaction Choice 3 should be more obvious.
-Success: Hero realizes The Physician is trouble. Starts spreading word. May start chasing to attack. Places that are told may decrease his influence. Or react hostilely to the accuser.
-Failure: Perhaps an exoneration counter. The more times someone fails this quest, the harder it gets.
*for genre reasons, preferably a low insight type. The High insight types tend to understand how difficult medicine is and trust other highly skilled individuals. Affinity fraud strikes again.
Post by: Jalak on October 28, 2014, 10:36:38 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on October 28, 2014, 10:39:29 pm
Post by: wer6 on October 29, 2014, 06:54:04 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 29, 2014, 10:15:47 am
When you say 'before the beta', re upgrading my rewards, you mean it, right? Since right now I probably should wait on doing so, so I'm going to. Beta's not for a while, is part of why I'm asking (I'm not planning on upgrading at the last second or some shit, just... not this instant)
Yep, up until the start of the beta. We'll send out prominent reminders before we end the ability to contribute.
Oh man I love the Physician, we have some similar interactions with wounds but nothing this specialized.
I really like the agent you designed, Rylen. The only problem I can see is that he might be too powerful if treated properly.
You can balance this by adjusting the increase to profile for his actions, the Peddler has a similar problem where his base ability to hand over corrupted items is incredibly powerful if it didn't have a downside. So handing out poisoned potions may be a wonderful way to weaken your foes, but the moment that someone drinks it the peddler becomes a source of suspicion, which is damning for someone who relies on being innocuous (much like the physician).
List should be finalized tomorrow night (says Amazon Payments), we'll probably start rolling people into the forums Friday morning - we'll be doing it in phases to make sure people are successfully getting in so you may not receive your invite until later in the weekend.
We have a lot of samples for review on the forum, with two in particular really looking good. We do NOT yet have an example of the "cartography slices" - since it is a style not often used it's been more difficult to find people to produce a quality sample. We've been leaning heavily towards keeping the map 2D as we don't like the generic look of 3D maps plus it comes with overhead both in display and up-front development time, but we do have some 3D samples as well.
Post by: Zangi on October 29, 2014, 11:39:25 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 29, 2014, 01:50:19 pm
A few quick modding questions that I don't remember being answered:
1) Is it possible to have a quest chain that results in a new POI?
2) Are guilds/cults/etc just abstract political entities you can influence, or can heroes and/or the elite units have an affiliate to one of them? Then if so, can that affiliation give abilities to the hero?
Post by: Zoston on October 29, 2014, 03:46:38 pm
The main question I still have is about how complex we can mod governments to be? Can we add in multiple layers of government? I'd like to try my hand at making a scenario centred around a Byzantinesque Empire, where at the top you'd have the Emperor, the Military, and the Bureaucracy vying for power (you would have a large amount of possible strategies, try and corrupt the bureaucracy and stage a civil coup, or perhaps just turn the high general into a coward thus hamstringing the Empire's military.), while below governors are running their territories almost like they were independent countries (a big part of the balance would be that if you corrupt the top, individual governors can counter the effects within their own territory, while if you corrupt individual governors you run the risk of the higher government taking notice and replacing them).
Would modding in such internal politics be possible? Or are you relatively limited to unified government?
Also, if you can create somewhat more complicated governments, can you dynamically lower or raise the influence of individual actors within it? For example, say you mod a new government that is a confederacy of city-states, with a ruling council made up by a delegate of each city. Could you mod it so player and AI actions could say raise one city-states 'voting power' in government decisions, at the expense of another of course. Could you mod it where you could, for example, take over an independent city, apply for membership to the confederacy, and then increase your influence till your city becomes the de-facto sole ruler (probably requiring winning civil wars in the process).
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 29, 2014, 05:55:41 pm
I'm ridiculously excited for this. I can't wait.
A few quick modding questions that I don't remember being answered:
1) Is it possible to have a quest chain that results in a new POI?
2) Are guilds/cults/etc just abstract political entities you can influence, or can heroes and/or the elite units have an affiliate to one of them? Then if so, can that affiliation give abilities to the hero?
1) yes but the POI has to be defined in the Scenario already - you can't set it up at runtime you can just "activate/deactivate" an existing POI (so start with a deactivated one and then set it to active) - you usually want to trigger an event at the same time "Island Rises from the Sea, Secret Pass Discovered" etc that will give the AI something to react to
2) Heroes learn their advanced abilities from Guild/Order membership, so it can be very important to the lategame
I'm more excited for this game than I've been in a long time! I just managed to get to the tail end of the kickstarter, but I've been eating up every scrap of info I could get my hands on.
The main question I still have is about how complex we can mod governments to be? Can we add in multiple layers of government? I'd like to try my hand at making a scenario centred around a Byzantinesque Empire, where at the top you'd have the Emperor, the Military, and the Bureaucracy vying for power (you would have a large amount of possible strategies, try and corrupt the bureaucracy and stage a civil coup, or perhaps just turn the high general into a coward thus hamstringing the Empire's military.), while below governors are running their territories almost like they were independent countries (a big part of the balance would be that if you corrupt the top, individual governors can counter the effects within their own territory, while if you corrupt individual governors you run the risk of the higher government taking notice and replacing them).
Would modding in such internal politics be possible? Or are you relatively limited to unified government?
Also, if you can create somewhat more complicated governments, can you dynamically lower or raise the influence of individual actors within it? For example, say you mod a new government that is a confederacy of city-states, with a ruling council made up by a delegate of each city. Could you mod it so player and AI actions could say raise one city-states 'voting power' in government decisions, at the expense of another of course. Could you mod it where you could, for example, take over an independent city, apply for membership to the confederacy, and then increase your influence till your city becomes the de-facto sole ruler (probably requiring winning civil wars in the process).
Woooooooooooo WELL internal politics is a tricky thing. You CAN mod it but that's all through custom code - so if you can handle some C# you can pull in all our dlls and then write it up, but it will doubtless need some debugging to go around it, and you'll have to adjust some AI routines as well to really do justice to it, as well as handle all the custom events for a new government. Definitely a lot of work.
You could reproduce it to some extent with one of two existing mechanisms.
1) The Feudal Kingdoms are made up of Baronies that are all part of the same Kingdom but have their own AI Entity (Barons) as well as their own courts, agendas, and drives. They can split apart, declare war on one another, or be asborbed by rival baronies.
2) Empire -> Province -> Colony relationships. Each of these are distinct countries, but the Provinces and Colonies are linked with the Imperial Country that is their ruler - it creates a lot of complex dynamics and tension between them but allows the Empire to exert greater influence on their provinces/colonies depending on how centralized their command structure is.
You could also just simulate it with some variables and a ton of custom events, which would really give you a strong sense of theme but would lower variance.
EDIT: Realized I didn't answer the second part
Yes you absolutely can raise the importance of certain elements in the political scheme of things, propping up the person who wants the same things you want (usually war) is a pretty standard tactic. You can raise or lower the influence of guilds, orders, kings, advisors, etc - and in republics you can also effect how powerful each city/village is. If a certain city begins to dominate the republic they may very well change the government, though this requires an individual to make the drastic decision.
Post by: Neonivek on October 29, 2014, 07:27:41 pm
I praise the game for having a system to prevent the sort of "last base" scenario so many games of this type often game without sacrificing the large and expansive world.
If this game was/is multiplayer I can only imagine the chaos as multiple eldergods start plunging the world into chaos.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 29, 2014, 09:20:29 pm
Seems like having your Great Old One almost awakened or even awakened will pretty definitively bring about the victory of the game.
I praise the game for having a system to prevent the sort of "last base" scenario so many games of this type often game without sacrificing the large and expansive world.
If this game was/is multiplayer I can only imagine the chaos as multiple eldergods start plunging the world into chaos.
It depends on the Old One, and even for the more powerful ones it will bring about the End but not necessarily your victory - your impending rise will draw out all those who are aware of your return and what resources they can muster to put a stop to it.
Post by: lijacote on October 30, 2014, 08:19:19 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 30, 2014, 10:13:30 am
Would it be possible to have the guildmaster give the heroes powerful abilities that come with grave costs, like the sword that the Peddler leaves behind? I could easily imagine a guild or group of mages being enticed with UNLIMITED POWER only to burn out in its corrupting power.
Not necessarily the Guildmaster but you can extend Dark Pacts to Heroes/Leaders, forge corrupt artifacts to hand over, and empower spells that will entice spellcasters to use them despite the toll on their will.
List still pending, but I think this mornings charge attempt is the last one. Doesn't give us feedback on the exact days left but math tells me this should be the last day before we get the list.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 30, 2014, 05:32:02 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 30, 2014, 05:32:54 pm
And though I know you didn't intend it, getting access to the forums for a game about demons taking over the world on Halloween is oddly fitting. And if we don't get treated to access, I'm sure we can figure out some trick to play on you. :P
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 31, 2014, 01:17:57 am
Will there be devlogs or updates awaiting on us on the forums, or have you just been busy getting everything set up?
And though I know you didn't intend it, getting access to the forums for a game about demons taking over the world on Halloween is oddly fitting. And if we don't get treated to access, I'm sure we can figure out some trick to play on you. :P
We won't be resuming DevLogs until after we have worked through the Map Assets as it consumes every waking hour of my time at this point, but we will be posting up raw footage of gameplay/testing as it emerges (I accidentally deleted the old raw footage while doing KS cleanup). Their are updates as well as the polls setup for voting on agents, and we have many of the map asset samples we have received up for review and discussion.
I think KS is all set now, I don't see any new charge attempts and people have been removed (why doesn't KS actually change the status of the list?) So I'm going to do some due diligence on the list today, then probably start importing a few of the highest tiers. As long as they have no problem then we'll go ahead and start rolling people in.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 31, 2014, 12:17:21 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 31, 2014, 12:58:48 pm
Should we have received a confirmation email if our charge was successful? Because I'm still listed as a backer but I don't have an email or anything. I haven't had a chance to check my history to see if it went through.
I definitely got my payment confirmation email as soon as the campaign closed.
Post by: Karlito on October 31, 2014, 01:16:44 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 31, 2014, 01:19:04 pm
Edit, apparently if you have XCOm you automatically have the alpha.
The fuuuuuck, I wish I'd known that earlier!
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on October 31, 2014, 11:16:20 pm
Okay, I didn't get the email but amazon payments has it confirmed on the site. We good.
Edit, apparently if you have XCOm you automatically have the alpha.
The fuuuuuck, I wish I'd known that earlier!
Kickstarter stripped out the failed charges this morning - still confused as to why they don't actually have a status that changes, you have to infer from the removal that it is complete. The entire process technically doesn't complete for 14 days, so maybe they wait for that window to send a final update - but we don't want to wait that long obviously. We got yet another high quality art sample today, and we're anxious to both get people's eyes on it, but also to get the Scenario Viewer out with some of the assets integrated.
Everyone should receive an email with forum access by the end of the weekend -if you haven't received anything by Monday you can either message me here, on KS, or at kingdinosaurgames@gmail.com.
@Xgamer4 - Update on videos, my number one priority next week is Resource Viewer out to Beta Backers so I'll be uploading videos from that process - then I'll be integrating the highest rated assets into the engine so we can see how it looks at the proper scale (zoomed in/out, with cities and units, etc) so even if you aren't a Beta Backer you'll be able to check out a video seeing how it looks. After that I want to get back to the Military bugs that I've had in queue for 2 months now to fix, so that will be the next highlight. Regular Dev Logs will resume once the art assets are squared away.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 31, 2014, 11:20:35 pm
Post by: alexpoysky on November 01, 2014, 06:54:33 am
Post by: Romanul on November 01, 2014, 06:17:00 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on November 01, 2014, 07:37:37 pm
How did the overall payments go? Was the number of invalid pledges in line with your expectation? Taking them into consideration, did we drop below the last stretch goal?
Based on other postmortems we had a little more than average failed charges - yes it definitely would have put us below the stretch goal but we factored in the expected failure rate when planning the stretch goals (factored in KS, Amazon, failure - 11% total).
Post by: wer6 on November 01, 2014, 10:26:56 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 01, 2014, 11:15:08 pm
@Xgamer4 - Update on videos, my number one priority next week is Resource Viewer out to Beta Backers so I'll be uploading videos from that process - then I'll be integrating the highest rated assets into the engine so we can see how it looks at the proper scale (zoomed in/out, with cities and units, etc) so even if you aren't a Beta Backer you'll be able to check out a video seeing how it looks. After that I want to get back to the Military bugs that I've had in queue for 2 months now to fix, so that will be the next highlight. Regular Dev Logs will resume once the art assets are squared away.
Ooohh, yay! Good to know. I was more wondering if there was anything set up for us to look at on the forums (and devlogs were the first to come to mind), or whether it was just a place to move the discussion for now. So not only does that answer my question, it's really exciting, and it's great to have an update on devlogs as well.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on November 02, 2014, 09:02:29 am
Are the Forums gonna be out for the Plebians who chouldnt get in the Kickstarter?
There are public forums but we won't really be posting in them until much later - we have a lot of focus on the Beta+ forums, and then we'll also be posting information in the regular backer forums.
Post by: wer6 on November 02, 2014, 09:07:40 am
Post by: Cthulhu on November 02, 2014, 12:10:06 pm
Post by: Vordrak on November 02, 2014, 01:00:32 pm
So has anyone gotten their forum invites yet? I'm excite.
No not yet. Big fan of this game but no cigar. I am in Beta Access tier so looking forward to it.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 02, 2014, 02:35:05 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on November 02, 2014, 06:40:23 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on November 02, 2014, 11:11:39 pm
If it comforts you any I was literally the first backer and I haven't gotten anything either...so I don't think that will dictate anything
All the beta and above invites should be out, everything < $50 is rolling out over the next hour.
Going to be working on the map pretty heads down over the next week, but I do need to get everyone's email from prior to launch on this thread for the little "thank you guys for being awesome" reward.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 02, 2014, 11:29:29 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 03, 2014, 01:24:45 am
Post by: lijacote on November 03, 2014, 07:26:41 am
I wish I had the energy and the will to start writing right away. It's November, too, the month of novels.
Post by: Mithras on November 03, 2014, 09:42:45 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on November 03, 2014, 10:24:05 am
I'm in. Got a chance to look at the map art samples. They're.....there's a couple decent ones. But I wouldn't close the door to submissions yet.
haha
Keep in mind that these are samples for proposed style, not of the quality of the end result. It's "direction" we need to nail down, quality can be iterated on (thanks to our generous Kickstarter results).
I really want to explore the cartographic slices more, but it's difficult to find people who understand the style since it's not a popular PC approach - ironically we are now reaching out to board game designers who have more experience with this.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 03, 2014, 11:01:36 am
EDIT:
Just followed the instructions he sent on the Kickstarter comments:
Quote
Everyone who hasn't received their activation email:
I have confirmed that all your accounts have been added and an email should have been sent to the email address you used for Kickstarter. If you can't find the email in spam/junk then please go to:
http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/ucp.php?mode=login (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/ucp.php?mode=login)
Use your email address (from Kickstarter) as the username, select forgot password, and then use your email address again for both username and email. You should receive a new password in your email immediately after. If you area not receiving it please double-check the email address is correct.
And got in fine.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on November 03, 2014, 11:42:05 am
Are all the keys out? I'm on the preorder tier and haven't received mine, and it looks like I'm not alone (based on the kickstarter comments)
From KS:
I have confirmed that all your accounts have been added and an email should have been sent to the email address you used for Kickstarter. If you can't find the email in spam/junk then please go to:
http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/ucp.php?mode=login
Use your email address (from Kickstarter) as the username, select forgot password, and then use your email address again for both username and email. You should receive a new password in your email immediately after. If you area not receiving it please double-check the email address is correct.
Let me know if you still aren't getting an email.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 03, 2014, 11:44:50 am
Post by: Broken on November 03, 2014, 11:49:56 am
Post by: wer6 on November 03, 2014, 12:17:10 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 03, 2014, 12:31:47 pm
Are people playing it now or is only the forum out?
....Just the forum.
Post by: wer6 on November 04, 2014, 05:57:13 am
Post by: Mesa on November 11, 2014, 09:48:40 am
And holy damn I wish I knew about it earlier, because that things looks brilliant in all the right ways. I guess I have another game to look forward to for the next couple of (many?) months.
This is a PTW/bump more than anything. I'm hooked for sure. Not just hyped, because there's no fireworks to be had or anything, just really, really interested.
Post by: dennislp3 on November 11, 2014, 12:00:08 pm
Post by: ventuswings on November 11, 2014, 01:09:27 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 12, 2014, 01:58:58 am
Not sure about the human cultures, last I checked it seemed like Persia was popular, and possibly a Papal States equivalent? Dunno.
Still working out the map assets thing, there's a few nice ones but the scenario viewer won't be out until probably Friday or the weekend.
Post by: nenjin on November 12, 2014, 02:15:50 am
Post by: Lapoleon on November 12, 2014, 03:46:23 am
Cultures aren't voted upon yet but popular suggestions are Persia/Arabia, Vikings, Mayincatec and Atlantis. Although the devs also like my suggestion of a volcano-centric civilization :D
Post by: nenjin on November 18, 2014, 12:47:46 am
It's nice. Totally not what I was expecting, but nice. Pleasant, professional.
Post by: lijacote on November 18, 2014, 12:57:10 am
Here's the game's music on a sound cloud page: https://soundcloud.com/thatwhichsleepsForeign Guild Diplo is exactly what I needed at this early, dire hour.
It's nice. Totally not what I was expecting, but nice. Pleasant, professional.
Post by: Ghazkull on December 26, 2014, 12:44:01 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 26, 2014, 12:55:49 pm
Post by: gimli on January 07, 2015, 09:00:45 am
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1073100
..can't wait to play the game! 8)
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2015, 10:12:55 am
Post by: Xantalos on February 01, 2015, 02:48:25 am
Post by: Cthulhu on February 01, 2015, 09:44:42 am
The old one art is beyond anything you could expect; it's by Richard Luong who did the art for the Cthulhu Wars (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars?ref=nav_search) boardgame as well, so we've got a serious monster pedigree going on here.
I think the descriptions given are a little silly and sometimes aren't as informative as I'd like. Though I've gone a complete 180 from thinking Limos sounded boring to thinking Limos sounds fucking awesome. I guess I'm speculating here on what he actually is but a god whose only goal is complete universal genocide (concluding, of course, with his own destruction) is a rad concept.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 01, 2015, 01:39:38 pm
Post by: Vordrak on February 15, 2015, 11:19:12 am
Post by: Cthulhu on February 15, 2015, 12:35:45 pm
Long story short the devs plan to release a map editor to test out the various art assets but it's been buggy and the devs have had to retract several release dates. This is hardly an abnormal thing (and wouldn't have happened at all had the devs not been transparent about their initial ideas for release dates) but a couple guys had some off-base complaints about the nature of kickstarter obligations and this dude apparently saw a chance to plug his blog and make some hilariously impotent threats and a sly implication that the game is a hoax.
Post by: jhxmt on February 15, 2015, 01:21:51 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on February 15, 2015, 01:31:42 pm
lolz
Just read the article...what a fucking joke. He is trying to make it like it is some legal crusade about how we were all mislead and lied to...sounds like someone really likes to stir shit when they get butt hurt
Though I suppose it is hard to take anyone serious when they call their blog "The Witchfinder" and they call themselves an "inquisitor". Instead of trying to make shit up and tear down start ups why not waste your time bitching about real problems the world has.
Post by: Vordrak on February 15, 2015, 01:48:17 pm
the devs have had to retract several release dates.
The article is no more than a statement of fact. A fortnight ago, we had the lead developer say this -
"The Map Builder is complete and will be in the hands of Beta Backers this weekend"
- and we are still waiting and have been for the last fortnight. Not to be harsh but we were originally promised a complete scenario viewer in November. It is true that the developers have been engaged, but so is Molyneux.
Post by: lijacote on February 15, 2015, 03:23:52 pm
Post by: jhxmt on February 16, 2015, 04:49:44 pm
It is true that the developers have been engaged, but so is Molyneux.
Molyneux isn't directly involved in the development of his/his company's games any more, and as such his statements come from a designer/owner point of view (which has its pitfalls, as we well know). KDG's statements, as far as I can see, all come directly from people involved in the actual programming/mechanics up to their elbows, and are far more practical in their tone and content. Hence I'm both more comfortable with, and more impressed with, their level of engagement with the community.
Post by: Zangi on February 16, 2015, 06:10:46 pm
Post by: Xantalos on February 16, 2015, 06:15:35 pm
Post by: miauw62 on February 17, 2015, 10:16:20 am
Post by: ventuswings on February 17, 2015, 02:42:54 pm
I can see where the argument is coming from though, Kickstarter is bound to foster some suspicion and it was disappointing that planned dev-logs and LP failed to materialize. Criticism under ridiculous guise of "Witchfinder" "Inquisifor" (WTF does these words even have positive connotation? I thought these were people who torture the undeserving) wasn't really the best PR stunt though, possibly. I wonder if he'll take credit if something happens soon.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 17, 2015, 03:48:34 pm
I love this game. I put down my $50 and I would like to see a demo / early access build. I might even write a preview on my blog.
Please? Need early access ...
If we get early builds we can do previews and stuff.
This is a preview I did of an Alpha build of a Roguelike called Keeper RL (well worth looking at incidentally) -
http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=653
The game has a vaguely similar premise to Dungeon Keeper - not so much an ancient evil re-awakening as your first time round as the big bad - a banished Warlock trying to become the Dark Lord. Good fun though.
Think I found the source of butt hurt...almost no posts by this guy except on this thread...it starts out with him sucking up asking early access...he doesn't get it so apparently he flips a switch and goes from "Love this game and willing to do a review" to "I am going to flail and cry and try and crucify you"
He also "updated the story" a couple days ago to "prove" other people besides him are complaining...by posting a quote from someone else on the forum simply saying "Any news? Anxiousness is Mounting!"
sooo definitely grabbing at straws
Post by: Crowe~ on February 17, 2015, 04:03:38 pm
Think I found the source of butt hurt...almost no posts by this guy except on this thread...it starts out with him sucking up asking early access...he doesn't get it so apparently he flips a switch and goes from "Love this game and willing to do a review" to "I am going to flail and cry and try and crucify you"
Nice find, imo you should be promoted to the office of Witchfinder General immediately for your work seeking the truth of this evil deed. 8)
Post by: Zangi on February 17, 2015, 04:09:02 pm
Darkest Dungeon - Jan 2015 --> ? (Technically, still only Early Access. They may have meant for the game to be out by Jan 2015 from the original wording.)
Dead State - Dec 2013 --> Dec 2014
Divinity: Original Sin - Nov 2013 --> June 2014
Shadowrun Returns - Jan 2013 --> July 2013
Torment: Tides of Numenera - Dec 2014 --> ?
Wasteland 2 - Oct 2013 --> Sep 2014
That Which Sleeps - Dec 2014 --> ?
War for the Overworld - Aug 2013 --> ? (May have meant when Early Access begins?)
Well... there are more, I reckon...
So uhh... yea. Taking a look at the witchfinder article, I think the guy is proposing that they be sued. Yea... that'll get shit done quicker. /sarcasm
Post by: Cheeetar on February 17, 2015, 04:10:34 pm
Whilst there is a lot of activity with art on the game forums, I think people should be aware that they have now missed several deadlines for release of tools.
I have written an article, here -
http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=1006
Titled: "King Dinosaur Games Must Remember that Kickstarter Promises are NOT Made to be Broken #GamerGate"
That's possibly the quickest I've ever made the decision to not read an article to which I've been linked. It's a real shame that this guy is gonna be throwing stink at the devs of this game.
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2015, 04:11:12 pm
As for the witchunter....lulz. Just lulz. The #gamergate hashtag is just the icing on the cake.
Post by: Lapoleon on February 17, 2015, 05:11:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 17, 2015, 05:18:52 pm
I was the one person who reacted on his blog by saying he was the only person who was actually blowing his gasket about the delays and I was immediately trolling according to him. I'm just happy that it's not luckily not picked up by a serious site which might have actually damaged the reputation of the game.
I'm guessing a serious site can differentiate hyperbole from fact, and aren't hungry for recognition and pursuing it by banging away at a non-controversy. What's the headline going to read? "You'll never believe what this Kickstarter did!"?
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 17, 2015, 05:32:45 pm
Eh, their delay has justifiable reason, and they made clear of this fact when they proposed the idea of hex-based map upto the vote. I'll give them few months before I start to become actively concerned.
I can see where the argument is coming from though, Kickstarter is bound to foster some suspicion and it was disappointing that planned dev-logs and LP failed to materialize. Criticism under ridiculous guise of "Witchfinder" "Inquisifor" (WTF does these words even have positive connotation? I thought these were people who torture the undeserving) wasn't really the best PR stunt though, possibly. I wonder if he'll take credit if something happens soon.
I do agree with the core sentiment of "delay, should we be worried based on prior kickstarters?". It's the hashtags (can't say I've ever seen those used in a way that raises credibility) and the seemingly jump-the-gun attitude of the post that bothers me. Yes kickstarters have fucked up in the past. Yes TWS might end up being one of them. But it's far too early for me to start speculating.
Post by: Darkmere on February 17, 2015, 06:36:02 pm
A week or two? Please...
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 17, 2015, 08:25:01 pm
Eh, their delay has justifiable reason, and they made clear of this fact when they proposed the idea of hex-based map upto the vote. I'll give them few months before I start to become actively concerned.
I can see where the argument is coming from though, Kickstarter is bound to foster some suspicion and it was disappointing that planned dev-logs and LP failed to materialize. Criticism under ridiculous guise of "Witchfinder" "Inquisifor" (WTF does these words even have positive connotation? I thought these were people who torture the undeserving) wasn't really the best PR stunt though, possibly. I wonder if he'll take credit if something happens soon.
I do agree with the core sentiment of "delay, should we be worried based on prior kickstarters?". It's the hashtags (can't say I've ever seen those used in a way that raises credibility) and the seemingly jump-the-gun attitude of the post that bothers me. Yes kickstarters have fucked up in the past. Yes TWS might end up being one of them. But it's far too early for me to start speculating.
And even beyond that, we really shouldn't be worried based on past kickstarters. I think every single videogame kickstarter I've backed has gotten a delay in some way, shape, or form - and most of those delays wind up compounding and setting the release back a good year+. A month or three delay, well accounted for at the beginning? That's being on top of things.
Post by: gimli on February 18, 2015, 10:39:31 am
"After a long delay we will be resuming our Dev Logs starting with an overview of the Map Builder in the coming days - we will be endeavoring to produce weekly summaries of development work so that everyone is on board with the progress being made as we approach beta. I cannot commit that their will be a video each week, but we will at the very least be posting summaries of changes and progress with accompanying screenshots."
Post by: Beggars` Sect on February 19, 2015, 02:52:26 am
Post by: ventuswings on February 19, 2015, 07:37:44 am
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2015, 07:44:13 am
I don't believe this game is necessarily Lovecraftian, but I guess the underlying themes are similar.
It isn't, it has a fantasy setting with Lovecraftian stuff as well.
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2015, 07:52:28 am
I don't believe this game is necessarily Lovecraftian, but I guess the underlying themes are similar.
It isn't, it has a fantasy setting with Lovecraftian stuff as well.
It is a game that uses lovecraftian horror and ideas (One of the gods is clearly Cthulhu) as inspiration.
However only a few of the possible gods are lovecraftian in design (In fact I believe only two are). Some of the others take inspiration from a wide variety of sources.
But the most lovecraftian aspect of the game is it is about the subtle manipulations of a sleeping or weakened deity as they slowly encroach their power over the world. Yet that isn't something Lovecraft created, but it is clear that it is where the game took its main idea from. Yet how this influence occurs is different for every deity.
Sisyphus from description almost kind of reminds me of the Avatar from Ultima in a way. He would SORT OF be the closest thing to being a "Good Guy" I guess. Though the Irony is quite obvious.
Post by: StupidElves on February 19, 2015, 08:54:29 am
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2015, 08:59:36 am
From what I've seen, it'd be interesting if there was an ancient power that worked with an artifact that people found, and the artifact possessed them. Like the One Ring, or Majora's Mask. That would be real fun.
I am thinking more Soul Calibur/Soul Edge.
That kind of fits more.
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2015, 09:13:30 am
Oh and here is a new post by Josh:
"We've decided Fridays make the most sense for us based on our scheduling, we've already wrapped up this week's video which will be on The Map Builder, and we will release it on the same day to the beta backers. Next week's video will be on the redone Scenario Builder and we'll go through making custom nations/cultures/races/POIs."
Hell yeah! So the new dev video is going to be released tomorrow! 8)
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 19, 2015, 09:32:15 am
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2015, 09:46:14 am
But that it is intentionally unbalanced and asymmetrical.
Though I am guessing by just looking at it.
Not sure if people will appreciate that.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 19, 2015, 10:14:37 am
Post by: sebcool on February 19, 2015, 10:25:40 am
The biggest issue with the game is that it isn't balanced.
But that it is intentionally unbalanced and asymmetrical.
Though I am guessing by just looking at it.
Not sure if people will appreciate that.
IMO, balance isn't really all that important in games like this. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Large scale, complex genres like Grand Strategy and 4x rely on the unbalance and asymmetry to give the game depth and challenge. When you have so many variables, it is impossible to make it balanced without simplifying the mechanics and making the game dull. What makes a game like this interesting is that every faction is different and have strengths and weaknesses which can be exploited, and some factions are just weaker than others. It makes the game competitive and allows better players to play with worse ones, by using a more difficult faction (not to mention in singleplayer, where it can be vital to keep the challenge)
A lot of the best Grand Strategy and 4x titles are unbalanced and asymmetrical. Frankly, I don't think balance is really a good thing in most games, unless they are highly competitive, skill based genres like FPS or RTS. When you have to worry about having everything be balanced, it makes it harder to create complex and interesting mechanics, which allow for greater depth and more fun gameplay.
Edit: That which sleeps is a perfect example of this. Yes, you could make the game more balanced, but that would mean stripping out a lot of complex mechanics and interactions in order to make the game simple enough to balance what remains. Making it balanced would pretty much rip out the soul of the game, and turn it into a much shallower experience.
On the other hand, by making it deliberately unbalanced, it can paradoxically make it more competitive. A faction which is dominant in one aspect of the game is often inferior in another, something a clever player can exploit. It can turn the game into a complex and fun web of strategies and manipulation, where every player tries to use their strengths while exploiting their enemies weaknesses. Endless Legend is an example of such a deliberately unbalanced game.
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2015, 10:54:32 am
The biggest issue with the game is that it isn't balanced.
But that it is intentionally unbalanced and asymmetrical.
Though I am guessing by just looking at it.
Not sure if people will appreciate that.
It's impossible to talk about balance right now, but as we know, all the Old Ones are very different with regard to their gameplay mechanics, and it's awesome as it is. If the AI will be able to handle them properly, it's all good. We can mod almost everything in the game, including the Old Ones, so buffing/nerfing them will be possible IF needed. Let's wait and see.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 19, 2015, 12:10:42 pm
Take Starcraft 2 for instance. Three without a doubt asymmetric sides, but winrates for all hover in the 45-55% range ie. balanced.
Post by: nenjin on February 19, 2015, 12:15:08 pm
Post by: TempAcc on February 19, 2015, 12:26:19 pm
Asymmetry isn't easy to balance around, certainly, but makes for a far more enriching experience then just creating a basic structures for all game entities (factions, gods, spells) to follow, like AoW and the later Heroes of Might and Magic games did, with things like "this is your basic attack spell! Its very similar to the other basic attack spells except for its elemental affinity" and "this is your basic ranged/melee/siege/high speed unit", etc.
Post by: puke on February 19, 2015, 12:46:16 pm
The grand daddy of them all, Dune 2, was its self asymmetric. Production models were identical, but the unique units for each faction really stood out and made them play completely differently
On the other side of the coin, you've got something more like TA or Supreme Commander. The three factions in SC are basically identical, completely symmetric, and (to my tastes) completely boring.
After I explored TA a little deeper, I found lots of little features like the fact that one side's minefields MOVED while another sides did not -- and this was completely undocumented. I came to realize that it had thousands of these little details that made it a RTS aficionado's dream, it was exceptionally nuanced and also exceptionally well balanced --- but it was still totally not the game for me.
Which was a shame, because I bought it *really* wanting to like it.
Edit: Also, FFS, how can you possibly level this sort of critique at a game that is still in active development? Especially the crazy modern kickstarted open beta kind of "we're still taking fan input as we go" kind of development, where the whole thing might pivot on a whim?
Also, Also, isnt this a single player game? How is symmetry or balance even a thing?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 19, 2015, 01:43:22 pm
This strikes me as the kind of game that doesn't necessarily need an airtight balance. Like some out of control things like the original Limos design were overpowered but more because they introduced problem game cycles than that they were by-the-numbers too stronk. He was either not winning or he was winning, there was no middle ground, and it was really a matter of how long the game went.
It's a single-player game so I don't see tight competitive balance as necessarily being the best approach anyway, I like the idea of a looser balance. You've got all kinds of crazy shit at your disposal but at the same time the kingdoms of the world united can put you down hard.
Post by: puke on February 19, 2015, 02:08:50 pm
Didn't mean to dip my toe in something unpleasant, sorry if I said anything provocative, I take it all back, etc.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 19, 2015, 02:10:14 pm
Guys, we're debating over a Neonivek post.
This strikes me as the kind of game that doesn't necessarily need an airtight balance. Like some out of control things like the original Limos design were overpowered but more because they introduced problem game cycles than that they were by-the-numbers too stronk. He was either not winning or he was winning, there was no middle ground, and it was really a matter of how long the game went.
It's a single-player game so I don't see tight competitive balance as necessarily being the best approach anyway, I like the idea of a looser balance. You've got all kinds of crazy shit at your disposal but at the same time the kingdoms of the world united can put you down hard.
+1 for being amazingly accurate.
Post by: Beggars` Sect on February 19, 2015, 09:13:22 pm
I don't believe this game is necessarily Lovecraftian, but I guess the underlying themes are similar.
I only had a brief look at it and should`ve said "inspired" - like other posters here - but there`s little doubt as to what it is based on. Starting with the name, cover image and the whole "plot" (things like orcs are clearly added on top of this). It`s not a bad thing, since like I said earlier the tone seems to be serious - as it should be...and using the whole "corrupt the world" mechanic as a basis for a game is spot on.
The name-dropping itself is unnecessary to create a good yarn in the HPL vein (e.g Alone In The Dark or aforementioned Infra Arcana) and perhaps haven`t been applied here due to copyright issues - there is a Cthulhu board game already and they hold some rights.
Hopefully the world will really be "living and reactive" and procedural elements meaningful, otherwise there might be replayability problem given the game`s short length.
Any word on if there`s a plan for a non-Steam release?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 19, 2015, 09:52:58 pm
Also there are Lovecraft elements but it's really more of a Sauron thing. Only two of the gods are really Lovecraftian (I had a long tangent about this in the beta forum), Azlan and Moloch. The rest are more akin to apocalyptic fantasy villains like Sauron, the Dominator, etc.
In fact, it's possible within the modding system (there's support for sort of "mutators" within a game, like all the rulers are super smart or super aggressive or everyone has a ton of money or whatever) to completely remove all Lovecraftian elements with the flip of a slider. Elements in the game are either Mundane, Magical, or Eldritch (Eldritch being Lovecraftian) and setting Eldritch to 0 will completely remove them. If you're really jonesing for Cthulhu stuff you can also increase the slider to make them more prevalent.
As for replayability, the game has a very complicated, currently handcrafted (but eventually will have some procedural elements as well, though the current info looks like they'll still have a handcrafted feel, you'll be able to influence events to suit your own preferences) system which should increase replayability.
Like, one game you might lose because the King of Someplace had his cabal of sages craft a ritual to stop you. Since the starting conditions are generally the same each game, you can see what'd happen if you made him hate mages, or if you cursed his family or something. There's a complicated system and a lot of the fun will come from manipulating the various elements and seeing what happens.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 19, 2015, 10:22:09 pm
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2015, 11:00:59 pm
--
Anyhow my post, rereading it, was sort of unclear (Well by unclear I mean for some reason I meant to say one thing but said a completely different thing)... What is odd is I remember what I meant, but I cannot find the post I was responding to when I was saying it.
Quote
It will be complex and unique on the strategy market.
Ahh misinterpreted that.
Anyhow my statement was more that the game's biggest issue is that it is unbalanced, though it is intentionally unbalanced, and the issue is only its ability to penetrate the strategy game scene, since right now the big thing is "balance to the point of tedium".
Not in terms of game quality.
Heck I have a term I like to call "Over balance" where a game, in seeking balance, will make everything boring.
Yeah I REALLY should have been more clear, but I have no idea why my post was like that. *Looks closer* 10AM!?! I stayed up all night and made a post at 10AM?
---
Though I should say that by asymmetric I mean even the way the different gods go about their business is different. They don't sort of fight on the same plane.
Also if we are going for Asymmetrical RTS games in terms of "Drastically different races" then the king would have to be Command and Conquer Generals... For JUST the Terrorist faction who just outright change the rules on how combat works.
Another asymmetric game is Masters of Orion not because the races are THAT different, but because the races are intentionally unbalanced like heck! Uncreative is like playing on hard mode and creative is probably the most powerful ability in the game.
Post by: gimli on February 20, 2015, 07:44:46 am
It's also gonna be on humble store DLC-free.
I guess you meant DRM free... :D
I am certainly eager to tinker with the mod system...I have a few ideas
Ahhhhh yeah. The possibilites are endless with regard to creating something _fun_ via modding in this game. New gods, kingdoms, races, cultures, spells, units, agents, heroes etc. etc. We can change the whole gameplay, or even the pacing of the gameplay [IE. long vanilla games]. 8)
PS. Endless mode looks epic. I'm sure that I will play in that mode only, when it will be available. It's too bad that they won't add it to the vanilla game, but again, it is a KS goal.
Post by: ventuswings on February 20, 2015, 08:22:11 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 20, 2015, 08:35:44 am
Post by: wer6 on February 20, 2015, 05:19:16 pm
Post by: ~Neri on February 20, 2015, 05:22:44 pm
You know, with a bit of spit and polish, you can possibly mod this to be modern world where your a AI instead of a dark god, that sounds amazing.Could also technically recreate that Daemon book using a similar method.
Post by: wer6 on February 20, 2015, 05:51:11 pm
Post by: ~Neri on February 20, 2015, 07:03:27 pm
I Hiiiiiiighly recommend both it and its sequel. It's tied with. Mistborn for my favorite book series.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 20, 2015, 11:37:32 pm
As for the modding, I'm more interested in scenario building aspect. So much possibilities: Fire Emblem, Song of Ice and Fire etc... so much to destroy!
Oooooooh, I'd love a sacred stones scenario!
Post by: Xantalos on February 21, 2015, 03:30:40 am
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Post by: ~Neri on February 21, 2015, 03:34:57 am
Post by: Xantalos on February 21, 2015, 03:53:07 am
Post by: HellHound01 on February 21, 2015, 04:27:36 am
So hyped.
Post by: nenjin on February 21, 2015, 05:30:18 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 21, 2015, 07:41:56 am
But back to the game! Aaaaah I have so many maps to convert to this. 11 minutes was not enough video. I'm probably going to be spending more time in the editors happily creating than in actual playing. Though that, too. I mostly signed up for the editors, even before there was a dynamic map.
I repeat: aaaaah. And I repeat my suggestion for a Bay 12 collaborative scenario when the game comes out.
Post by: gimli on February 21, 2015, 09:35:42 am
Post by: dennislp3 on February 21, 2015, 11:47:22 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 21, 2015, 12:12:59 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on February 21, 2015, 12:15:33 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 21, 2015, 05:04:36 pm
So, it's looking like everything hoped for so far?
Well it's just basic terrain and terrain features at this point. The map isn't really going to come to life without all the other assets and yet more terrain tiles. But it looks like a good foundation for custom maps and scenarios. Really it's the AI interacting with the map where we'll see it really start to shine.
Watching the dev log, the map builder is actually way more subtle than it appears at first blush. There's lots of logic between all the terrain and feature choices. (Marshes need to be connected by a river or they dry up, upstream/downstream as it relates to corrupting or poisoning rivers...)
I'm also tickled pink you can name map features in not just one, but 4 languages. If that text shows on the final map product, that'll be rad as hell.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 21, 2015, 05:20:47 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 21, 2015, 07:49:51 pm
Post by: pedrousz on February 21, 2015, 08:26:33 pm
must...
not..
buy...
early acess... :-X
Post by: dennislp3 on February 21, 2015, 11:33:18 pm
Post by: gimli on February 22, 2015, 08:08:09 am
Ahh yes I love the part about map interactions...makes me wonder if there is a way to terraform in game? I suppose there is because one of the gods exerts cold over the land...still curious to see if that just gives POIs negative modifiers or if it actually changes the terrain.
Yes, terraforming will be possible, I remember that it was mentioned in one of the old devlogs.
I don't think this is civ style...it strikes me as far more Crusader Kings-esque...
We can't really compare this game to any others imo. It's really unique on the strategy market. The Civ games or even CK2 are very different with regard to their gameplay system/strategical layer compared to TWS. It's even hard to compare it to other "God games", like Black and White or Populous.
Post by: Neonivek on February 22, 2015, 08:09:23 am
Ahh yes I love the part about map interactions...makes me wonder if there is a way to terraform in game? I suppose there is because one of the gods exerts cold over the land...still curious to see if that just gives POIs negative modifiers or if it actually changes the terrain.
Yes, terraforming will be possible, I remember that it was mentioned in one of the old devlogs.
Well... Not to mention at least one of the playable gods (I need to memorise what the game calls them) is based around terraforming.
Post by: Sartain on February 22, 2015, 10:14:53 am
Post by: Cthulhu on February 22, 2015, 11:15:31 am
Ahh yes I love the part about map interactions...makes me wonder if there is a way to terraform in game? I suppose there is because one of the gods exerts cold over the land...still curious to see if that just gives POIs negative modifiers or if it actually changes the terrain.
Yes, terraforming will be possible, I remember that it was mentioned in one of the old devlogs.
Well... Not to mention at least one of the playable gods (I need to memorise what the game calls them) is based around terraforming.
Inatha. He creates a blizzard that slowly spreads across the world, giving him an extremely defensible home base to fall back to as enemy armies suffer attrition from the cold and the monsters hiding in it (not to mention the effects of the weather on the economies supporting them). He also has some kind of voice thing where the fragments of his wendigo-style voice are scattered around the world. Your agents can hunt them down and retrieve them to power up your avatar or you can leave them where they call monsters and increase the danger of hte surrounding area.
Post by: Neonivek on February 22, 2015, 11:22:29 am
Post by: lijacote on February 26, 2015, 08:52:30 pm
Post by: Rose on February 26, 2015, 10:35:18 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 26, 2015, 10:36:31 pm
Ohh I was speaking of Seraph who slowly covers the world with her crystals the more of her fragments you obtain.
I don't think that counts as terraforming though. Also does she? I know she creates a crystal palace that attracts people but I don't thinks he spreads crystals everywhere.
Post by: bulborbish on February 26, 2015, 11:21:26 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 26, 2015, 11:48:11 pm
Inatha is straightforward - a combination of slow but permanent conversion to tundra as well as the ability to push out sudden storms and other environmental effects from the mountain peaks that still contain his voice. Moloch is more insidious and open to various approaches from forcing the hexes adjacent to his pools to regress to a primal state (jungles, high temperature, more danger) to corrupting rivers with his bile forcing downstream POIs to suffer to wielding his tendrils like weapons to form massive wounds in the earth permanently damaging the hex (and any POI atop it). However, each usage provides openings for the Heroes to descend into the Underworld and seek out his Heart, or at the very least sever some of his tendrils.
I'm hoping we get to another Old One vote (though Race is next) while in Beta as one of our next contenders is a Sentient War Machine from the Age of Wonders that has a very unique relationship with terraforming focused around ancient ruins, though I do expect Tzadar to rally and take it.
Post by: StupidElves on February 27, 2015, 12:45:02 am
Seraph raises towers which serve to funnel light to her palace, they don't terraform but "drain light" from adjacent areas creating a variety of interest effects. We WILL be revisiting the core six Old Ones to see if terraforming abilities will benefit their strategies and theme but Inatha and Moloch are the only two who pivot around terraforming abilities as they were two that were specifically stripped from consideration early because the static map wouldn't support them.
Inatha is straightforward - a combination of slow but permanent conversion to tundra as well as the ability to push out sudden storms and other environmental effects from the mountain peaks that still contain his voice. Moloch is more insidious and open to various approaches from forcing the hexes adjacent to his pools to regress to a primal state (jungles, high temperature, more danger) to corrupting rivers with his bile forcing downstream POIs to suffer to wielding his tendrils like weapons to form massive wounds in the earth permanently damaging the hex (and any POI atop it). However, each usage provides openings for the Heroes to descend into the Underworld and seek out his Heart, or at the very least sever some of his tendrils.
I'm hoping we get to another Old One vote (though Race is next) while in Beta as one of our next contenders is a Sentient War Machine from the Age of Wonders that has a very unique relationship with terraforming focused around ancient ruins, though I do expect Tzadar to rally and take it.
Will there be old ones that feature an object as their source of power? Like Sauron and the One Ring? Because that leads to a lot of possibilities for moders.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 27, 2015, 12:50:30 am
Post by: gimli on February 27, 2015, 08:21:11 am
Seraph raises towers which serve to funnel light to her palace, they don't terraform but "drain light" from adjacent areas creating a variety of interest effects. We WILL be revisiting the core six Old Ones to see if terraforming abilities will benefit their strategies and theme but Inatha and Moloch are the only two who pivot around terraforming abilities as they were two that were specifically stripped from consideration early because the static map wouldn't support them.
Inatha is straightforward - a combination of slow but permanent conversion to tundra as well as the ability to push out sudden storms and other environmental effects from the mountain peaks that still contain his voice. Moloch is more insidious and open to various approaches from forcing the hexes adjacent to his pools to regress to a primal state (jungles, high temperature, more danger) to corrupting rivers with his bile forcing downstream POIs to suffer to wielding his tendrils like weapons to form massive wounds in the earth permanently damaging the hex (and any POI atop it). However, each usage provides openings for the Heroes to descend into the Underworld and seek out his Heart, or at the very least sever some of his tendrils.
I'm hoping we get to another Old One vote (though Race is next) while in Beta as one of our next contenders is a Sentient War Machine from the Age of Wonders that has a very unique relationship with terraforming focused around ancient ruins, though I do expect Tzadar to rally and take it.
Will there be old ones that feature an object as their source of power? Like Sauron and the One Ring? Because that leads to a lot of possibilities for moders.
I don't think that there are any Old Ones like that.
Post by: Xantalos on February 27, 2015, 08:22:38 am
Post by: Zangi on February 27, 2015, 09:06:38 am
More importantly, can one like that be created by modders?
Will there be old ones that feature an object as their source of power? Like Sauron and the One Ring? Because that leads to a lot of possibilities for moders.
I don't think that there are any Old Ones like that.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 27, 2015, 09:19:51 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 27, 2015, 09:22:28 am
Post by: gimli on February 27, 2015, 09:26:12 am
A mechanic for creating artifacts that empower you while making you more vulnerable would certainly be interesting option.
Agreed. Hm....perhaps a "Suggestions & Ideas" topic should be created on the official forums. [Even tho I don't see the BETA board, since I am not a backer..] That being said....perhaps it's kinda early for that, since most of the KS goals will be added later on as well. :D
Post by: Lapoleon on February 27, 2015, 09:39:57 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 27, 2015, 10:16:45 am
In Saurons case, it would be an artifact (The One Ring) that allows him to control the wielders of all the other rings. The other rings would be powerful by themselves, as well. Hand them out to all the kings of the realm (Did you know that all nine ringwraiths used to be human kings?)
I suppose the one rings powers would be...
Sister Artifact Control (Control the other "sister" artifacts, aka the other rings, when you wield this ring.)
Spirit-walking (Invisibility)
Master-seeking (Any hero who picks up the ring feels compelled to seek out it's original master. Sometimes they believe they want to kill him, sometimes pledge loyalty.)
Powerful draw (Heroes want it. This should be a common side effect of artifacts, the strength of the draw decided by the power of the artifact).
Powerful Magic Bonus
Corrupting
In fact, a solid artifact system where you can exchange some of your power to receive an artifact and choose it's various effects from a list would be really interesting. Maybe a specific type of god?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2015, 10:19:44 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 27, 2015, 10:20:46 am
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 27, 2015, 10:40:56 am
Seraph raises towers which serve to funnel light to her palace, they don't terraform but "drain light" from adjacent areas creating a variety of interest effects. We WILL be revisiting the core six Old Ones to see if terraforming abilities will benefit their strategies and theme but Inatha and Moloch are the only two who pivot around terraforming abilities as they were two that were specifically stripped from consideration early because the static map wouldn't support them.
Inatha is straightforward - a combination of slow but permanent conversion to tundra as well as the ability to push out sudden storms and other environmental effects from the mountain peaks that still contain his voice. Moloch is more insidious and open to various approaches from forcing the hexes adjacent to his pools to regress to a primal state (jungles, high temperature, more danger) to corrupting rivers with his bile forcing downstream POIs to suffer to wielding his tendrils like weapons to form massive wounds in the earth permanently damaging the hex (and any POI atop it). However, each usage provides openings for the Heroes to descend into the Underworld and seek out his Heart, or at the very least sever some of his tendrils.
I'm hoping we get to another Old One vote (though Race is next) while in Beta as one of our next contenders is a Sentient War Machine from the Age of Wonders that has a very unique relationship with terraforming focused around ancient ruins, though I do expect Tzadar to rally and take it.
Will there be old ones that feature an object as their source of power? Like Sauron and the One Ring? Because that leads to a lot of possibilities for moders.
Sisyphus' rise to power is due to a selectable artifact - it alters his powers and of course he'd love to get his hands back on it. Considering one of our major inspirations for mechanics was War of the Ring (the boardgame) there are Campaigns (multi-stage quests) that have a "dunk the ring in Mordor" feel to them to end the game. That being the case, it would be trivial to mod in a "One Ring" type object.
In procedural we would like to see these objects created by the usage of ancient power and gifted, like the rings of power, to nations/leaders throughout the world to drag them down into corruption.
That already exists I'm pretty sure. There's even an agent centered around crafting powerful artifacts, the artificer.Artificer got the chop - we originally had a few specialist agents that reflected your sacrifice to use their specific branch of abilities but since we've been able to expand the game so much it seemed like an artificial limitation. Now your ability to craft artifacts depends on ancient knowledge, facilities, and corrupting those whose skills are essential in forming it (elves, dwarves, etc).
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2015, 11:46:57 am
Also I'm a little disappointed that "Dunk the ring in Dordor" wasn't intentional.
Post by: gimli on February 27, 2015, 11:56:34 am
Now your ability to craft artifacts depends on ancient knowledge, facilities, and corrupting those whose skills are essential in forming it (elves, dwarves, etc).
Nice! 8)
Post by: TempAcc on February 27, 2015, 12:02:20 pm
Also I do like the idea that old ones should lose some of their powers if they decide to use to to create an artifact or infuse people/creatures/agents with power, since that also did happen to morgoth, and the only reason he was considerably weaker then the other valar in the second half of the silmarillion is because he infused tons to of things with his powers (and by carrying silmarils in his crown, which actualy made him weaker). At one point he was so weak even fingolfin, an elf (albeit one of the strongest ones that ever existed), was able to seriously injure him.
Post by: HellHound01 on February 27, 2015, 10:10:50 pm
Is there a full list of the above that are currently planned to be in the game?
How do Cultures and Governments interact? I'd assume warlike "Norse" cultures will probably be more dangourous with a military style government, then say... a republic.
Is it possible for governments to change via revolution/revolt/coup in game?
How much do the traits of Kings and other leaders affect the nations? Will warlike leaders in a peaceful type government be able to force a war, or will they end up being confined by the style of the government?
I've read that NPC nations will sometimes go to war with each other depending on culturall/government traits, how far will they go? Will they enter total war mode, or simple fight over bits of land or trade rights?
Is trade reciving an overhaul with the kickstarter being so successful? I remember that origionally it was kind of a vauge thing that occured, will there be actual trade routes that can be raided/blockaded now? Also what about pirates?
Will non-human races also have seperate cultures? Such as Wood Elves/High Elves/Dark Elves? Or will they be pretty monolithic compaired to Humans?
Do races like Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs get boost in combat because of racial abilities?
Sorry if these questions have been asked before.
Post by: bulborbish on February 27, 2015, 10:40:33 pm
Does anyone have anymore information on Cultures/Governments/Races?
Is there a full list of the above that are currently planned to be in the game?
How do Cultures and Governments interact? I'd assume warlike "Norse" cultures will probably be more dangourous with a military style government, then say... a republic.
Is it possible for governments to change via revolution/revolt/coup in game?
How much do the traits of Kings and other leaders affect the nations? Will warlike leaders in a peaceful type government be able to force a war, or will they end up being confined by the style of the government?
I've read that NPC nations will sometimes go to war with each other depending on culturall/government traits, how far will they go? Will they enter total war mode, or simple fight over bits of land or trade rights?
Is trade reciving an overhaul with the kickstarter being so successful? I remember that origionally it was kind of a vauge thing that occured, will there be actual trade routes that can be raided/blockaded now? Also what about pirates?
Will non-human races also have seperate cultures? Such as Wood Elves/High Elves/Dark Elves? Or will they be pretty monolithic compaired to Humans?
Do races like Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs get boost in combat because of racial abilities?
Sorry if these questions have been asked before.
I'll do my best to give you what I got.
1. Races can have certain Governments, Humans have the most with most common governments, Culture is independent of government type and defines who lives in a Point of Interest compared to who controls the point of interest.
2. Races in the main scenario (though they can be modded in easily enough)
-Humans
-Elves
-Dwarves
-Orcs
-Lizardfolk
-Ithilid Esk Folk (can't remember their name right now
-a few more minor races which I can't remember
We really don't have a full list of governments so I won't list it, and Cultures vary by scenario
3. Cultures mostly exclusively react with each other on a xenophobia value, and governments do more of the foreign policy and how armies are built. Unfortunately we haven't been told all the details at the moment
4. Yes, along with peaceful transition in certain cases, like how KDG told us a story on how trade with a republic turned a necromancer government and a lizard folk government into civilized human governments.
5. Government in certain cases will determine how much power the dominant monarch has, and certain traits in a monarch will change how they react to the world around them. Unfortunately not much detail beyond that
6. NPC nations will go to war for a variety of reasons, like control over POIs and threat to the nation. Total War does exist, but as far as I know is only used against threats they are in the Coalition to get rid of
7. Trade as far as I know is still a resource traded between governments for goods, but blockading trade was always kind of a thing. There is a recruitable agent called the Great Captain that is a pirate, but beyond that we don't have much information on piracy. Presumably it is present, and you recruit the Great captain from interactions with them.
8. In what we've been shown thusfar, the other races are fairly monolithic ethnically HOWEVER the support does exist modding wise if you want to make multiple races of the same "type" or add governments to races government lists.
9. All units, hero or otherwise, vary depending on what race they are.
If you want more information on something, just shoot your answer out and I'll go into more detail than what I initially have here.
Post by: Neonivek on February 28, 2015, 12:21:28 am
Post by: gimli on February 28, 2015, 09:55:20 am
http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9&start=40#p5652
Interesting! I especially like the new hidden stat for the AI.
2 more things what I want to add:
- Josh talks about farms around a village which is near a river. I don't see any farms. Perhaps some custom tile should be added just like in the civilization games.
- I thought that we gonna have "special" PoIs like temples, shrines, graveyards etc. I only see cities, villages and castles now. We need more PoI types, as much as possible to make the map more interesting. Just my 2 cents. :)
Post by: dennislp3 on February 28, 2015, 10:12:13 am
That's right above the first picture...just saying...
"Also of note on the map you'll see that farms (slight greening) have sprung up around the village near the river, which gives a bonus in food. It's a subtle effect right now, but if you followed our earlier screenshots we are considering a more obvious signifier."
also in the scenario editor you will be able to use any picture for POIs...which means POIs is restricted to a modders imagination and I am more than sure the actual game when done will have plenty of POI variety
Post by: gimli on February 28, 2015, 10:32:28 am
also in the scenario editor you will be able to use any picture for POIs...which means POIs is restricted to a modders imagination and I am more than sure the actual game when done will have plenty of POI variety
Yeah, I know that we can create new PoIs of course, but I mentioned special PoIs, not "settlement type" PoIs. Example: A shrine which blesses the visiting heroes or armies, temples and graveyeards which could spawn various things like treasures, hostile creatures [undeads mostly], etc. etc. So stuff like that. Also, we cannot mod in stuff like that, if it's not coded in the engine.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 28, 2015, 11:38:00 am
also in the scenario editor you will be able to use any picture for POIs...which means POIs is restricted to a modders imagination and I am more than sure the actual game when done will have plenty of POI variety
Yeah, I know that we can create new PoIs of course, but I mentioned special PoIs, not "settlement type" PoIs. Example: A shrine which blesses the visiting heroes or armies, temples and graveyeards which could spawn various things like treasures, hostile creatures [undeads mostly], etc. etc. So stuff like that. Also, we cannot mod in stuff like that, if it's not coded in the engine.
Their are a variety of non-settlement POIs, but the idea is to represent the geographic region more so than the unique buildings that populate it. However, we will be getting some unique imagery for wondrous locations - but as dennislp3 said you can mod in anything you'd like. The POI image is arbitrary, the type can be set to unique, and then you would place your uniquely created building/modifier in the POI itself - the POI itself is generally a 'holder' which the AI interprets. We didn't want to restrict a POI to a specific function because letting them be combined within a POI leads to "interesting emergent behavior" which is our favorite buzzword.
In addition we are supporting offsets to show structures and highlights near the base POI - right now I only use this for Docks and Cathedrals but we expect to expand on this if their is sufficient real estate, and at the very least will be including mines and lumber yards to represent resource production.
Post by: gimli on February 28, 2015, 11:46:34 am
also in the scenario editor you will be able to use any picture for POIs...which means POIs is restricted to a modders imagination and I am more than sure the actual game when done will have plenty of POI variety
Yeah, I know that we can create new PoIs of course, but I mentioned special PoIs, not "settlement type" PoIs. Example: A shrine which blesses the visiting heroes or armies, temples and graveyeards which could spawn various things like treasures, hostile creatures [undeads mostly], etc. etc. So stuff like that. Also, we cannot mod in stuff like that, if it's not coded in the engine.
Their are a variety of non-settlement POIs, but the idea is to represent the geographic region less so than the unique buildings that populate it. However, we will be getting some unique imagery for wondrous locations - but as dennislp3 said you can mod in anything you'd like. The POI image is arbitrary, the type can be set to unique, and then you would place your uniquely created building/modifier in the POI itself - the POI itself is generally a 'holder' which the AI interprets. We didn't want to restrict a POI to a specific function because letting them be combined within a POI leads to "interesting emergent behavior" which is our favorite buzzword.
In addition we are supporting offsets to show structures and highlights near the base POI - right now I only use this for Docks and Cathedrals but we expect to expand on this if their is sufficient real estate, and at the very least will be including mines and lumber yards to represent resource production.
Thanks for the input!
Just to make it clear: Example: I want a unique PoI which spawns treasures [gold, armors, weapons for the heroes etc.] or hostile creatures with a 1% chance / turn. Is it possible to mod this in? Also, what kind of modifiers can we "play around" with? Is there a list for this, or it can't be revealed yet?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 28, 2015, 12:26:03 pm
If you wanted to make a modifier that spawns 1% an army of orcs that would be relatively simple, or if it had a ticking percentage to damage local POIs or perform a similar action that would also be simple.
Their is a large list of possible modifiers, but we haven't posted a full list yet.
Post by: gimli on February 28, 2015, 12:52:26 pm
Oh boy, the summer can't come soon enough to get our hands on this game. :)
Post by: wer6 on February 28, 2015, 01:22:46 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 28, 2015, 01:53:43 pm
How expansive can modding and mapping be? can players, for example change the art style?
About the only thing you can't mod easily is the GUI - which is all unity prefabs, I've compensated for that where possible (by creating dynamic resizing and basing everything off of grids so that you can create new types) but it would still be a pain to, for instance, create a new window or completely change the layout of one.
If you watch the most recent dev video you'll see how the terrain is painted - it just takes a 200x200 texture and pastes it over an alpha mask. By swapping those images up you can create a completely different map style (like seeing the Cartographic vs Realistic style in the map) - swap out the mountains/forests/coasts and you'll have en entirely different map. Of course, if you change the aesthetic too much (make it very dark for instance) you may then have to modify the POIs to stand out better from the map - and further artistic work may be needed to complete the overhaul in a satisfactory way.
You'll be able to find all of the raw pngs in the folder structure, and duplicate to create overrides or alternate map packs. We package up the separate sprites at runtime into atlases for performance reasons but defer the process to make modding as easy as possible.
As far as modding outside of the map - you can create a global mod, scenario mods, and specific rulesets that can be applied to all scenarios. Everything is built to roll together seamlessly. You can use the in-game engine, code custom callouts in a .NET 3.5 framework, or modify the JSON files directly.
Post by: Scoops Novel on February 28, 2015, 01:57:58 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on February 28, 2015, 03:30:03 pm
How expansive can modding and mapping be? can players, for example change the art style?
As far as mapstyles go it's quite easy. I created the following (http://i.imgur.com/kRjZ7PF.jpg) in about 15 minutes, with some random textures I found on the internet.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 28, 2015, 04:00:43 pm
Post by: HellHound01 on February 28, 2015, 07:24:36 pm
If you want more information on something, just shoot your answer out and I'll go into more detail than what I initially have here.
Thanks for the answers!
Really all I'm interested in knowing at this point is how much of an effect the different race/culture/government/leader combos have on a nations foreign policy.
Post by: wer6 on February 28, 2015, 10:03:40 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 28, 2015, 10:38:29 pm
Is it possible to just replace everything with a modern style and have it be a Sentient AI instead of a Demon lord?
I would not recommend trying to undertake such a massive modding project.
Post by: wer6 on February 28, 2015, 10:38:58 pm
Post by: StupidElves on February 28, 2015, 10:51:50 pm
Post by: wer6 on February 28, 2015, 11:06:51 pm
Post by: Bohandas on February 28, 2015, 11:27:51 pm
Post by: Xantalos on February 28, 2015, 11:49:08 pm
You underestimate the lengths people on the internet will do if they're given the tools to do it.Is it possible to just replace everything with a modern style and have it be a Sentient AI instead of a Demon lord?
I would not recommend trying to undertake such a massive modding project.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on February 28, 2015, 11:52:11 pm
But is it... Pooossiible?
You could certainly redo the map easily to make things look modern, and make a "Rogue AI" Old One with flavorful abilities. You could then disable all fantasy and eldritch events which would relatively ground your campaign in a "realistic" feel, but the problem is that the game actions and mechanics are all firmly rooted in "medieval" attempts at subterfuge and war. If you wanted a truly thematic overhaul you'd need to modify all of those to not just make sense thematically but also function more appropriately for the modern (or futuristic) era.
Hmm, How easy is it to mod in new ability's and such? because to me all it would take would be a re-sprite of all the things, change music, change some ability's around and instead of hero's you get Hacker's and instead of Foodmills and such you'd probably get internet streams.
New abilities are very easy to add in, and you could certainly do what you mentioned above with relative ease. However I think you would be underwhelmed with the final product unless you overhauled the fundamental mechanics of the game - though if you do pull it off I'll be the first in line to play your mod.
When does this hit Steam?
We would like to launch this summer but we won't be releasing until the beta backers give the game the all-clear. We are fortunate enough to have funding for the foreseeable future so we're going to make sure that the game, which has seen substantial changes in the last 4 months, is as polished as it can be.
You underestimate the lengths people on the internet will do if they're given the tools to do it.Is it possible to just replace everything with a modern style and have it be a Sentient AI instead of a Demon lord?
I would not recommend trying to undertake such a massive modding project.
haha, true enough and I would never discourage someone from a passionate project. It is just my personal opinion that the game won't translate well to the modern era without modification verging on building a new game.
Post by: Xantalos on February 28, 2015, 11:56:02 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 01, 2015, 01:25:00 am
I'm sure someone out there's crazy enough to try it.
Post by: Zangi on March 01, 2015, 01:55:37 am
Post by: gimli on March 01, 2015, 08:26:08 am
Well, as long as the base game is good enough to attract and keep people around... You'll get a modder of that tier out of that...
Indeed. [PS. We need to dispel Stardock's charm person spell, which has been casted @ Kael. :D]
Post by: hops on March 02, 2015, 12:36:59 am
Post by: dennislp3 on March 02, 2015, 02:00:22 am
Post by: hops on March 02, 2015, 03:49:47 am
Post by: gimli on March 02, 2015, 09:29:29 am
I am guessing you don't follow the Crusader King II modding community? EVERY update breaks every mod...yet most, especially the bigger ones...keep at it...and if the original team doesn't they almost always hand it off
Yeah, the Paradox modding community was always decent imho, and I play Paradox games [+mods of course] since many years..
Post by: gimli on March 09, 2015, 08:21:52 am
http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9&start=60#p5860
Post by: Lapoleon on March 09, 2015, 09:42:09 am
- Scenario Editor is nearly done and modding videos will be released in a couple of days.
- POI's will now have sublevels. These can be districts (Noble quarters, Market, Docks, etc.) which influence each others and regions (Outskirts, Mine, Forest), which are more independent of one another.
- There's going to be an overhaul of the ritual system. Ley lines will be added which make rituals stronger but if too many ley lines cross things might go kaboom. Ley lines can be moved and even corrupted.
- TWS is also upgrading to Unity 5 which for some technowizardy reasons is a good thing apparently. :)
The Dino's are also answering all sorts of questions in the beta backer forums so their level of feedback is still amazing.
Post by: gimli on March 09, 2015, 10:00:18 am
Also, the new screenshot looks decent! [Side note: Perhaps the font type should be changed to a "fantasy/medieval font" type. The numbers are looking excellent.]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2015, 10:04:41 am
Post by: Poltifar on March 13, 2015, 10:32:23 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2015, 11:12:37 pm
The FAQ on their website says closed beta begins this month, is this still on schedule? And if I buy it from their website now, do I get access to this closed beta?
I think it's safe to say closed beta is not this month. The Map Editor just came out a few weeks ago and the Scenario Editor has yet to arrive. Their whole time table was pushed back like, what, 6 months? They probably need to update the website.
If you buy in now, all you're getting is the backer forum access and Map Builder access, and access to the closed beta (I assume) whenever it arrives.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 13, 2015, 11:57:04 pm
I'm a little disappointed. As a gamblin' fluff I don't fuck with the limits I set on myself, so seeing them go back on their original intention to feature lock the first week of march because they wanted to add more features makes me a little :T
But it's one time. If they do it again I'll worry. For now I'm still optimistic and the feature htey added is really cool.
Modder tools are apparently coming out by the end of the month though.
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2015, 12:25:56 am
Still, getting on toward an actual release would be good. Truth be told I'd rather they skip releasing the Scenario Builder and leave it for mid EA or something. I have no interest in playing with mod tools when updates will invalidate pretty much anything you're spending your time on.
Post by: Lapoleon on March 14, 2015, 04:00:00 am
Quote from: Josh
A long and tiring week comes to an end - we pushed ourselves to the deadline (and to be honest a few hours past) to get as much as possible in before closing the door on new features (until after the Beta). We are now officially polishing up for Beta - this involves mostly altering the GUI for all of the new features we've put in or expanded upon for stretch goals as well as bringing all of the out of date content up to the new standards. The AI as well has to be modernized with all of the new possibilities of the game, a process we've been trying to stay atop of as we rolled out new features with moderate success. Yes we had hoped to be here at the End of January but I'm quite happy with our progress and excited to hit this milestone with the list of features and enhancements that we have.
Summary from the other points in the update:
- Devlogs are slightly delayed due to cramming as much as possible before the deadline. Sunday should see the release of the first mod tutorial. And we can also look forward to gameplay videos.
- A lot of time has been put in integrating the map editor and scenario editor and it looks rather pretty.
- Buzzwords: Orc Tribes with special traits, Zealot Nobles, Noble Families,
- Bloodlines which can pass magical traits, allowing for cursed human civilizations or magical families
- More and better advisers for governments, the Military Councillor has a more important vote on military matter, you can convince the king that he really needs an occult adviser and your agent is just the man for the job.
- Some new institutions and interactions with them, the spymaster could be the boss of an inquisition, while a Master of Coin could practice State Capitalism by owning his very own merchant guild.
- Assets are looking lovely and are ahead of schedule mostly.
- Beta is still planned for April.
- We're almost up for a new race vote, so if you're not a backer yet, this is the time.
Post by: gimli on March 14, 2015, 08:42:54 am
PS.
I am not surprised that they need more time to release the BETA. They've added lot of awesome new stuff. If the AI will be good enough, this game will be epic with all these gameplay features. I am only unhappy about 1 thing: Endless Mode won't be available at release, since it's a KS stretch goal. Oh well. :)
Post by: gimli on March 16, 2015, 07:32:24 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 16, 2015, 09:15:38 am
Post by: gimli on March 17, 2015, 06:20:45 am
Kickstarter Update #23 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1167280)
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 17, 2015, 10:46:27 am
- Bloodlines which can pass magical traits, allowing for cursed human civilizations or magical families
An interesting note on bloodlines, is that apparently they're a concept taken from a backer. I suspect it's the backer at the $3,000 level (custom scenario) - which makes me even more curious what that'll ultimately be.
Post by: gimli on March 17, 2015, 12:44:43 pm
Note: KDG should use this engine to create a high fantasy strategy/wargame after TWS. All these subsystems [Races, traits, skills, governments, spells, heroes etc. etc] would be excellent for a game like that. All it would need is a detailed diplomacy system, kingdom management options & tactical combat. :)
Post by: nenjin on March 17, 2015, 12:51:19 pm
Post by: gimli on March 17, 2015, 01:06:48 pm
I dunno. Lately I've become disenchanted with tactical combat. No one seems to do it very well these days. Every tactical battle space that takes place on a grid I've played in the last few years almost doesn't feel worth the effort.
I think AoW2SM's tactical battles are still the best...or at least I've enjoyed that tactical battle system the most in the last decade, and that game is from 2003. Heh....AoW 3's tactical battles are nowhere near as fun even. ::)
Post by: TempAcc on March 17, 2015, 01:17:04 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 17, 2015, 01:33:00 pm
Yea, AoW:SM did a good job with its tactical system, and HoMM's old hex based system wasn't bad either, if rather simplistic. I also miss true tactical jrpg games in the vein of Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre. Nobody seems to turn based tactical combat (in those two styles) right anymore.
Or at least, to the quality of something like Enemy Unknown. Today it's just like "Oh, throw a rock or a tree in there to occasionally block sight lines or movement, let them nuke each other with spells regardless of range, and blandly march their guys into face to face combat." It feels like most game's tactical combat hasn't advanced beyond Master of Magic, which isn't any more complex than they are, but somehow seems to keep everything in the right scale so moves, ranges and tiles all matter. Even games that ostensibly have their eye on the ball, like Worlds of Magic, the tactical combat still comes out feeling wooden. I'm not the kind of guy to click "auto-resolve" on most battles, but it's becoming a habit with most people's tactical combats.
Post by: TempAcc on March 17, 2015, 02:05:46 pm
The only other turn based combat model that worked out really well in recent times was silent storm's. Seriously, silent storm had its flaws, but its engine and combat system were pretty great.
EDIT: it seems the most interesting turn based combat systems of today are the ones that focus more on ranged combat. There's no melee focused turn based combat system in recent history thats very interesting or enjoyable to experience, at least the ones I can think about arent (looking at you really hard, ubisoft HoMM games.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2015, 02:36:18 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 17, 2015, 02:40:27 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 17, 2015, 02:50:51 pm
I feel like creating a god who has a dark souls effect on the worldEverything becomes awful forever? Sounds appropriate.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 17, 2015, 03:24:07 pm
I feel like creating a god who has a dark souls effect on the worldEverything becomes awful forever? Sounds appropriate.
yep. but purposefully allow one hero to be awesome to see if he can defeat the world.
Post by: Zangi on March 17, 2015, 03:28:59 pm
Only one? You need many heroes... so that they can fall... until one finally makes it, the chosen one. (Actually there is a chosen one mechanic isn't there?)I feel like creating a god who has a dark souls effect on the worldEverything becomes awful forever? Sounds appropriate.
yep. but purposefully allow one hero to be awesome to see if he can defeat the world.
Post by: Sindain on March 17, 2015, 04:49:52 pm
Only one? You need many heroes... so that they can fall... until one finally makes it, the chosen one. (Actually there is a chosen one mechanic isn't there?)I feel like creating a god who has a dark souls effect on the worldEverything becomes awful forever? Sounds appropriate.
yep. but purposefully allow one hero to be awesome to see if he can defeat the world.
Basing a god on the Old One seems like it would fit the game better.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on March 17, 2015, 06:00:46 pm
I dunno. Lately I've become disenchanted with tactical combat. No one seems to do it very well these days. Every tactical battle space that takes place on a grid I've played in the last few years almost doesn't feel worth the effort.
I've had that same feeling which definitely played into the design of That Which Sleeps - without SIGNIFICANT focus on making sure Tactical Combat is incredible I think it impedes the flow of a grand strategy game. We had numerous discussions on whether or not to add even a simplified grid to Agent/Hero combat not to mention Military Battles and we just felt that keeping these elements to quickly played but critically important segments that reward long-term planning was the better approach (and could be made as complex and varied as we liked given the minimal implementation needs).
Post by: gimli on March 17, 2015, 06:13:53 pm
I dunno. Lately I've become disenchanted with tactical combat. No one seems to do it very well these days. Every tactical battle space that takes place on a grid I've played in the last few years almost doesn't feel worth the effort.
I've had that same feeling which definitely played into the design of That Which Sleeps - without SIGNIFICANT focus on making sure Tactical Combat is incredible I think it impedes the flow of a grand strategy game. We had numerous discussions on whether or not to add even a simplified grid to Agent/Hero combat not to mention Military Battles and we just felt that keeping these elements to quickly played but critically important segments that reward long-term planning was the better approach (and could be made as complex and varied as we liked given the minimal implementation needs).
It was a good decision. This isn't a wargame afterall.
Post by: Bohandas on March 17, 2015, 09:46:51 pm
I dunno. Lately I've become disenchanted with tactical combat.
Blasphemy!
Post by: Farce on March 17, 2015, 10:59:03 pm
I don't suppose there are any guesses as to when the full release will be out? As I recall, I bought into the non-beta tier, and not knowing how long I've gotta wait makes the wait wwway harder.
Post by: Xantalos on March 17, 2015, 11:09:17 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 17, 2015, 11:55:31 pm
Post by: Farce on March 18, 2015, 01:23:52 am
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 18, 2015, 09:53:58 am
Hype aversion partially successful! Though the KS update once again filled me with anticipation.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 18, 2015, 12:33:01 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on March 18, 2015, 01:52:50 pm
I suppose it is similar in some aspects to CK II (the intrigue stuff) but it is so much more intricate than that....hard to say
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 18, 2015, 03:09:06 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 18, 2015, 03:23:41 pm
I just hope this game oozes atmosphere.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2015, 08:42:54 pm
That's the best part about this game...you can't just be like "This game is like X game"...which is a rarity these days.
Agreed. I like this game because of it's originality.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 19, 2015, 01:44:22 am
RPG-ish turn based strategy with light (very light?) combat. So light I hesitate to use the word tactical there.
I just hope this game oozes atmosphere.
The randomly generated artifacts, ruins, and spells will have their own generated flavor text which will reference back to events and figures from history, either characters who come up in procedural generation (probably one of the later things to be developed but still a thing) or characters from the character name backer goal.
Speaking of which, it was more than just a name. You pick your dude's name, race, personality, position in the world, what time they lived, etc. etc. and it uses all that. So if you make a guy from the present age he might show up as an actual character, while if you make one from an older age you might find the ruins of his keep, or an artifact he wielded, or a spell he discovered, etc.
So yeah, there's a lot of very sexy atmosphere. I'd say what name I picked but instead I won't.
Post by: gimli on March 19, 2015, 09:57:32 am
Oh and dear devs....could you give us a bone and post some infos with regard to the military system & army battles, and that how will they work? I haven't seen any informations about this so far, hopefully it isn't "BETA only" material. 8)
Oh and one more thing. Hopefully we are going to have some nice & detailed information/statistics panel to overview the nations, heroes, agents, armies etc. It's a must have in a game like this [..especially useful on huge maps]..IMO. :)
Post by: gimli on March 21, 2015, 10:24:50 am
Post by: Lapoleon on March 31, 2015, 01:45:09 pm
- The UI has been a lot of trouble and last week was terrible development-wise. Josh is taking a day off this week and they've planned to spend max two days on it this week, after that it's back to the editor to release the mod tools.
- This has also delayed the other mod videos
- Old One abilities all seem to work fine, even the terraforming ones, so that's good.
Since there's little real news I'll keep you amused with the following Q&A:
Quote from: Josh
Q:Have you got any examples of funny/unexpected/terrible AI behaviours in game?
It's interesting because where do you draw the line between "bug" and "feature" when it comes to an AI that is meant to be derailed. We designed the game so that small changes ripple outward, and simply giving the King a particular mental disorder can throw entire regions into chaos (or it may lead to his ouster and replacement by a Council of Enlightened Sages, unfortunately). My favorite behaviors are related to how far Heroes will go for those they love - I've managed to trick heroes into thinking a Noble had their love assassinated so then they go storming in and killing the nobleman, generally being executed right afterward. Other times they'll go on suicidal crusades against you, plunging into the badlands looking for your seal - or they'll stalk your agents and try to rally the world against them.
On the societal front one of the hardest things to balance are cultural shifts - so if a culture values something you tend to get people in charge who have that trait/personality. Originally their were ways to abruptly shift that, so you could make the people loathe that trait and suddenly entire nations would burst spontaneously into riots to purge their leaders. We made it a BIT MORE GRADUAL after a long spate of that. We also had an Orc Adventurer who Conan the Barbarianed his way into being King of a massive human kingdom in the Depthsscenario - I never "fixed" that because it seemed to work as expected (and will rarely occur).
If you want TERRIBLE well then, the AI took a rocky path to get to where it is. My favorite terrible AI bug was when told to Raid a general would simply turn around and start burning his own farmland - we later took the buggy behavior and used it as a basis for "Scorched Earth" tactics, but for a long time you'd see campaigns completely derail when the generals would just go crazy and start burning down their own country. We had a bug once where Sages with competing knowledge would just go crazy if the other completed it first and try to kill them no matter what - and considering that sages rarely have good combat ability it led to the most pathetic series of "attack" events in the log. We've since changed vengeance/anger paths so that the more cunning agents will pursue Plots to discredit/blackmail/coup their foes instead of going for a duel or ambush.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 31, 2015, 07:05:35 pm
Wait, did I miss something? Randomly generated spells?
Oh and dear devs....could you give us a bone and post some infos with regard to the military system & army battles, and that how will they work? I haven't seen any informations about this so far, hopefully it isn't "BETA only" material. 8)
Oh and one more thing. Hopefully we are going to have some nice & detailed information/statistics panel to overview the nations, heroes, agents, armies etc. It's a must have in a game like this [..especially useful on huge maps]..IMO. :)
You did miss something. Spells are generated from bases with various modifiers, sages and hte like can research spells and such and you're able to influence the spellcrafting process to create evil things.
I dunno how randomly generated artifacts and such are but I know they have random names and flavor text which is pulled from whatever database of historical information the scenario uses, whether that's a hard list for premade scenarios or procedurally generated.
Post by: gimli on April 01, 2015, 07:45:50 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 01, 2015, 07:50:26 am
Post by: Lapoleon on April 02, 2015, 01:17:59 am
Hmm, so can we actually taint spells, pushing sages towards researching Dark Magicks, which make the spellcasters insane and/or vulnerable to corruption?
I asked Josh and got the following info:
Yep, that's one of the first elements we ever added to the magic system. Any knowledge of the past comes with consequences to the researcher, and if they make use of the powers they learn they'll suffer even further.
This makes me very happy as that will make it much easier for me to corrupt sages in my Warhammer mod.
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on April 03, 2015, 02:35:28 pm
One of the current Fallen Primals:
The Fallen Primal of Hope
Image: Corpse-like giant moth shining a weak light over a swamp
Power: Can restore otherwise fatal wounds
Campaign Effect : Heroes Overwhelming Victory - Empowers the Primal to assist the Alliance, greatly increases morale and can lower corruption over time. Agent Overwhelming Victory - Spreads corruption passively and is now now drawn towards high morale areas.
Essentially we'll want a concept, a general idea of how it looks, and some kind of effect. The Primals can also have physical presences and be available as Minions, Elite Units, or Global Threats.
There's not really a way to vote here, but I don't want to take it into our forums to punish any non-backers so we'll just see if people can generally agree on a good idea.
I also have included an Event referencing Bay12, and there's more than a few Dwarf Fortress references (mostly in Ruins).
The Artist we are working with to bring the Fallen Primals to life: http://borjapindado.deviantart.com/
Post by: dennislp3 on April 03, 2015, 03:05:01 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 03, 2015, 03:18:05 pm
Ahem. One second...
The Fallen Primal of Terror
Image: An enormous dark elephant with ruby eyes and jagged tusks looming over a river - if you need it to be diminished in some way, the tusks can be shattered and the elephant itself could be scarred heavily with chunks of flesh missing
Power: Can invoke fear effects in entities to such an extent that they might die/become paranoid/become obsessed with defending against the elephant even when it isn't there/some really negative fear effect
Campaign Effect: Alliance Victory: The Primal assists the Alliance, no longer damaging their morale and seeks out large congregations of your own units/areas where they have high morale and lowers them drastically by it's mere presence. Might cause smaller groups of units to disperse into the wilderness outright (ie you lose them) and/or cause larger ones to rout.
Agent Victory: The Primal seeks out cities/armies/large groups of units not your own and afflicts them with various physical and mental maladies against them, as described above
I literally just woke up and came up with this, which with me generally means it's not a bad idea. Let's see.
Post by: Zangi on April 03, 2015, 03:26:59 pm
Image: Some sort of randomly generated/pieced together forgotten beast(or the more common term, chimera).
Not really serious here... but I guess it can be adopted into something more if people take a liking to its base concept.
Likes: The bones of humanoid fish creatures. Patron of feline creatures as life-long companions... also acceptable as parts and food.
Power: Rabies, (but not actually rabies) for all creatures. Non-intelligent creatures become hostile to intelligent creatures within a PoI.
Campaign Effect - Hero: Catslopsion. Intelligent creatures get adopted by feline creatures. +Stability/Happiness.
Campaign Effect - Agent: As if the creatures of the land, air and sea have decided that the very presence of civilization is an affront and must be extinguished.
Post by: sjm9876 on April 03, 2015, 03:33:36 pm
The Fallen Primal of Blight
Image: A withered horse, it's eyes shining a malevolent green.
Power: Can terraform land into deserts.
Campaign effect:
Alliance: Reduces the cost of Alliance army upkeep.
Agent: Reduces the food production of alliance cities, (destroying farmland if those made it back in after terraforming.)
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 03, 2015, 04:13:33 pm
The Fallen Primal of Allure
Image: A large unicorn, simultaneously alluring, mysterious, and threatening (blood dripping from horn?).
Power: Draws people to itself (leaves clues around, attracts attention of heroes and minions and makes them search for it, rumors are found in lore that hint at it creating a quest - something like that). If drawn into battle Primal is deceptively powerful, using its horn to great affect.
Campaign Effect:
Alliance: Makes Alliance more likely to form and/or more stable by drawing more heroes/kingdoms/etc to the cause.
Agent: Actively leads heroes/Chosen One/Alliance away from Old One as they're drawn into a likely-fruitless attempt to chase the unicorn.
Post by: Shadowgandor on April 03, 2015, 04:25:43 pm
Image: A humongous withered oak tree, comparable to a tree in the autumn.
Power: Increases growth in an area around itself. Forests become denser, animals will show up in greater numbers. Basically it wil create untamed wilds around itself.
Campaign effects:
Alliance: food income will grow, more people will be born, diseases are easier to heal, heroes can meditate at the tree to heal certain wounds/damages. Sages can research the primal to increase awareness to changes to the earth.
Agent: Food income will decrease, will periodically spawn hostile tree creatures (think ents or smaller saplings that resemble thorn bushes), tribals have a huge increase in population growth and food income.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 03, 2015, 04:31:23 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 03, 2015, 04:52:15 pm
Post by: Darkmere on April 03, 2015, 04:55:11 pm
Post by: Jopax on April 03, 2015, 05:07:19 pm
The great Toad of pestilence.
Image: A gigantic toad, bloated and sickly, covered with open wounds and pus oozing from them, sitting in great pools of diseased water filled with dead bodies.
Power-Brings plague to a nearby province (are plagues a thing? They should be)
Campaign effects:
Alliance-Makes the forces of good imune to poison/plague
Agent-Slowly spreads plague to random provinces
Post by: Xantalos on April 03, 2015, 05:09:02 pm
Post by: nenjin on April 03, 2015, 05:18:48 pm
Either that or a spiced up Cacame. Like, an insane elven demi-god prone to eating the flesh of their victims, as likely to lash out evil doers trespassing on their domain as they are to lash out at the normal everyday citizens of the world.
Post by: lijacote on April 03, 2015, 05:19:10 pm
WHO was the first that forg'd the deadly blade?
Of rugged steel his savage soul was made:
By him, his bloody flag ambition wav'd;
And grisly carnage through the battle rav'd.
Yet wherefore blame him? we're ourselves to blame;
Arms first were forg'd to kill t he savage game:
Death-dealing battles were unknown of old;
Death-dealing battles took their rise from gold
The (Fallen?) Primal of Artifice
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With great industry and sacrifice, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. It will also increase industry at the cost of some increased unrest.
Campaign effects:
Alliance's aims: A sufficiently desperate or brave/foolhardy hero gains a weapon. The alliance strives to create a powerful yet relatively safe weapon, and ideally (I don't know the limits of this campaign) the agent can try and interfere with this process, either corrupting it to a degree or another, or...
Agent's overwhelming victory: The newly crafted weapon is taken by the now-animate primal, who will become an asset for evil forces.
Post by: sjm9876 on April 03, 2015, 05:21:16 pm
The (Fallen?) Primal of Artifice+1 to this, or failing that the boatmurdered one.
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With great industry and sacrifice, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. It will also increase industry at the cost of some increased unrest.
Campaign effects:
Alliance's aims: A sufficiently desperate or brave/foolhardy hero gains a weapon. The alliance strives to create a powerful yet relatively safe weapon, and ideally (I don't know the limits of this campaign) the agent can try and interfere with this process, either corrupting it to a degree or another, or...
Agent's overwhelming victory: The newly crafted weapon is taken by the now-animate primal, who will become an asset for evil horses.
Post by: Nick K on April 03, 2015, 05:31:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on April 03, 2015, 05:37:41 pm
The Fallen Primal Toad of Gnosis
Image: An elephant-sized toad, gnarly, ancient and primordial looking, ethereal and otherworldly in appearance, with humanish eyes, crouched among an infinite library of books.
Power: Fills the world with creativity and insight, unearthing ancient knowledge and leading sages and intellectuals to faster discoveries.
Campaign Effect :
Heroes: Flash of Insight. Whenever a hero or important NPC would learn or create something new, there is a chance it would be a much improved version. A better weapon, a better spell, a better law, getting more out of a clue than they normally would. Alternatively, when a hero creates a new something, like a spell or an item, there's a chance they create another, different one right after.
Agent: Twisted Understanding. When agents attempt an action, be that carrying out a plot or attacking a hero or exploring a ruin, there is a chance they gain an appreciable bonus in their favor. That might be to the success rate of their plot or a bonus to how well it was concealed, the accuracy and/or damage of their attack, or the event/result of their exploration.
The powers are debatable, but I don't really feel like I have a good handle on how TWS works mechanically. So thinking of cool powers of the appropriate scope is hard.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 03, 2015, 05:39:51 pm
The Old Elf King
Image: A bloodthirsty elven king of yore. Clad in ivoried armor and antlered crown he is drenched in ancient blood and gore and wields his blades of ruin.
Power: An impressive battlefield presence in both tactical and strategic acumen as well as possessing a berserker's fury and skill.
Alliance-The Elf King is cured of his ancient bloodlust and leads the armies of the world against that which sleeps.
Agent-The Elf King is driven ever further in to madness by the whispers of chaos, seeking out alliance heroes and attacking them.
EDIT: but that doesn't seem very primal so here's another one.
The Old Earthen Primal
Image: A hulking humanoid, it towers many stories above the average man, though its squat form smacks of the dwarves. The primal wears little in the way of clothing but its bulging muscles are covered in dirt and stone and its grey beard reaches nearly to the floor. It wields a massive club that crackles with unseen power.
power: The Earthen primal once shaped the very land itself. now it watches in guarded secrecy as the lesser races dabble in archectiture.
alliance victory: The earthen primal agrees to separate the world with pillars of stone. He can cause gridspaces to become mountains. Chance to destroy whatever is already there.
Agent victory: The earthen primal is turned against the lesser races and wracks havoc where he passes. Slowly terraforms the land into stony badlands and fiery desert as he travels. Can occasionally destroy whatever lies on a tile.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 03, 2015, 09:32:56 pm
I'm thinking we could either focus on the communal aspect of Bay 12, with maybe a sea creature of some kind, or something related to (more or less) receptive harbours, and trade, interaction between distant shores, or we could focus more on Dwarf Fortressy side of things. I'm thinking a primal of artifice, a statue that accepts offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created. The blood of creation. I would also quote something to set the mood for what I thought, from Tibullus:
WHO was the first that forg'd the deadly blade?
Of rugged steel his savage soul was made:
By him, his bloody flag ambition wav'd;
And grisly carnage through the battle rav'd.
Yet wherefore blame him? we're ourselves to blame;
Arms first were forg'd to kill t he savage game:
Death-dealing battles were unknown of old;
Death-dealing battles took their rise from gold
The (Fallen?) Primal of Artifice
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With great industry and sacrifice, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. It will also increase industry at the cost of some increased unrest.
Campaign effects:
Alliance's aims: A sufficiently desperate or brave/foolhardy hero gains a weapon. The alliance strives to create a powerful yet relatively safe weapon, and ideally (I don't know the limits of this campaign) the agent can try and interfere with this process, either corrupting it to a degree or another, or...
Agent's overwhelming victory: The newly crafted weapon is taken by the now-animate primal, who will become an asset for evil forces.
A primal of Artifice would be perfect!
Personally though I think it should just change what kind of artifact it produces, not animate it... if your agents succeed, it creates horrible things? Lots of room for dwarf fortress shinanigans!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 04, 2015, 03:10:37 am
I'm thinking we could either focus on the communal aspect of Bay 12, with maybe a sea creature of some kind, or something related to (more or less) receptive harbours, and trade, interaction between distant shores, or we could focus more on Dwarf Fortressy side of things. I'm thinking a primal of artifice, a statue that accepts offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created. The blood of creation. I would also quote something to set the mood for what I thought, from Tibullus:
WHO was the first that forg'd the deadly blade?
Of rugged steel his savage soul was made:
By him, his bloody flag ambition wav'd;
And grisly carnage through the battle rav'd.
Yet wherefore blame him? we're ourselves to blame;
Arms first were forg'd to kill t he savage game:
Death-dealing battles were unknown of old;
Death-dealing battles took their rise from gold
The (Fallen?) Primal of Artifice
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With great industry and sacrifice, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. It will also increase industry at the cost of some increased unrest.
Campaign effects:
Alliance's aims: A sufficiently desperate or brave/foolhardy hero gains a weapon. The alliance strives to create a powerful yet relatively safe weapon, and ideally (I don't know the limits of this campaign) the agent can try and interfere with this process, either corrupting it to a degree or another, or...
Agent's overwhelming victory: The newly crafted weapon is taken by the now-animate primal, who will become an asset for evil forces.
A primal of Artifice would be perfect!
Personally though I think it should just change what kind of artifact it produces, not animate it... if your agents succeed, it creates horrible things? Lots of room for dwarf fortress shinanigans!
I really like this idea, though I think the power should be something more unique than just increasing industry. Crafting a weapon sounds good, but what sort of weapon(s), with what sort of powers? Really powerful ones, I assume, but something thematically appropriate. A blade that grows in power with every life it takes? A spear that spreads a weakening corruption in metal it touches? There could be an option to have it craft an army too, or a siege engine special unit.
Or it could be something Coaxmetal-ly, a sentient, genocidal siege engine that can be awakened and harnessed by the forces of darkness (or maybe really desperate heroes). Or unleashed to wreak havoc and attack everything it sees.
On the other hand, I like the undying elf king too, particularily the redemption angle for the alliance victory. There's so much corruption and morally grey desperation here, redeeming and curing someone to the side of good has an appeal.
Post by: lijacote on April 04, 2015, 07:13:17 am
It's true, I was very much unsure about the powers myself. I do like the crafting of weapons and the corrupting of that process, so that ought to stay in this idea. I think it's a neat parallel to the moods in Dwarf Fortress. Perhaps that ought to be the power the Primal has, and the campaign could be around the unrest, or rather the effects of artifice, both its product and its process.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The different sides would seek to control the violence of the statue, of the craft, not just through the weapons it can inspire to be crafted, but through the worship it possibly produces. Like any government. It ought to have something "primal" to it, however, so it's not too prosaic. Something fell. Let us try.
Spoiler: Tibullus (click to show/hide)
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With incredible industry and sacrifice, with great despair or even greater bravery, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. This process can be influenced by that which sleeps, producing corruptive weaponry.
Campaign effects
Alliance overwhelming victory: The ancient cult around the statue is totally eliminated, and replaced by controlled worship. Powerful arms are created for the soldiery, and the soldiery is inspired to measured and purposeful acts against any threats to order. Those with violent inclinations are as if guided towards the [state's] military, bolstering ranks and reducing unrest.
Agent overwhelming victory: Not only is the ancient cult now stronger than ever since the primal times, the military of the [state] has been deeply influenced, mastered by the implements they themselves sought to master. This army, headed by the cult, constituted of the fanatical and the professional, the rabble and the military, now seeks to expand its might and the faith.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 04, 2015, 01:30:16 pm
It's true, I was very much unsure about the powers myself. I do like the crafting of weapons and the corrupting of that process, so that ought to stay in this idea. I think it's a neat parallel to the moods in Dwarf Fortress. Perhaps that ought to be the power the Primal has, and the campaign could be around the unrest, or rather the effects of artifice, both its product and its process.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The different sides would seek to control the violence of the statue, of the craft, not just through the weapons it can inspire to be crafted, but through the worship it possibly produces. Like any government. It ought to have something "primal" to it, however, so it's not too prosaic. Something fell. Let us try.The (Fallen?) Primal of ArtificeSpoiler: Tibullus (click to show/hide)
Image: A tall, dark, foreboding statue before whom sacrifices are strewn about, bowls of blood, swords, bones, gold, et cetera.
Power: With incredible industry and sacrifice, with great despair or even greater bravery, its power can be used to craft horrifying weapons. This process can be influenced by that which sleeps, producing corruptive weaponry.
Campaign effects
Alliance overwhelming victory: The ancient cult around the statue is totally eliminated, and replaced by controlled worship. Powerful arms are created for the soldiery, and the soldiery is inspired to measured and purposeful acts against any threats to order. Those with violent inclinations are as if guided towards the [state's] military, bolstering ranks and reducing unrest.
Agent overwhelming victory: Not only is the ancient cult now stronger than ever since the primal times, the military of the [state] has been deeply influenced, mastered by the implements they themselves sought to master. This army, headed by the cult, constituted of the fanatical and the professional, the rabble and the military, now seeks to expand its might and the faith.
This one sounds really fun.
Post by: Sartain on April 04, 2015, 04:08:55 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on April 04, 2015, 04:57:47 pm
Post by: ~Neri on April 04, 2015, 04:59:01 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 04, 2015, 05:38:15 pm
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2015, 05:50:27 pm
I don't know I am picturing the statue and trying to see a sort of beginning and an end.
But really the statue almost feels like a non-entity. Even if "Super powered agents and soldiers" is a strong ability.
It needs a small injection of personality.
Though I guess that could occur in game with effects the more "Worshippers" it gets. Where the things it makes start off innocently enough but after it gets powerful enough people go mad in the street murdering each other to turn their bodies into macabre visages, weapons, or what have you.
Post by: lijacote on April 04, 2015, 05:55:03 pm
I feel like such a wanker, having written that. I feel dirty, fouled. Egocentric, like a proper tosser and narcissist. Like a public relations speaker. I should not try and be friendly and amiable. :P
Post by: Mithras on April 04, 2015, 06:11:09 pm
Once in a while the primal possesses a craftman who seeks out a set of rare and strange materials across the world to make a masterpiece of some sort. If properly managed by the heroes and the situation is right the craftman's quest goes well and they collect the raw materials peacefully and make an item of great beauty and skill (though without any inherent magical affect) that unifies the cultures, nations and races that the resources used to make it were acquired from. Agents can interefere to provide the raw materials through more questionable means, leading to a masterpiece claimed and fought over by the groups the raw materials were taken from, those who hold the masterpiece gain the ire of all those who suffered for it to be made.
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2015, 06:17:27 pm
Though Mithras that ability suggests a different type of game altogether.
Where the God of Artiface actually just wants craftsmen and artists and uses its ability to attract them unnaturally (Through possession) and naturally (through wonderful stuff). As well as having access to all kinds of resources in large quantities.
It would make such a end goal probably to create... The Primal of Artiface himself.
Post by: Darkmere on April 04, 2015, 10:19:28 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 04, 2015, 10:35:02 pm
Post by: gimli on April 05, 2015, 07:39:18 am
Personally, I'd vote for the Hell-ephant.
Could be a randomly generated forgotten beast.
Yeah, it should be a generated forgotten beast. That is "properly DFish" at least. :)
Like this little one..:D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: i2amroy on April 05, 2015, 04:02:37 pm
The (Fallen) Primal of Artifice:
Appearance: Statue in the middle of a small ruin
Power: Through the sacrifice of "offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created" it creates powerful armor and weapons for those making the offerings.
Campaign effect:
Heroes overwhelming victory: The ruin around the statue transforms into a bustling strong-walled fortress for the good guys, one that continues to export powerful weapons and armor for heroes to use.
Agent overwhelming victory: The ruin grows in size and releases a large army of powerful twisted demons that attempt to slaughter everything nearby, and begins to occasionally generate small demon groups after the original wave.
I think that might capture the overall essence of DF a bit more than just exporting weapons personally.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 05, 2015, 06:57:08 pm
Post by: i2amroy on April 05, 2015, 07:23:59 pm
Oooh, so if the Heroes win, it becomes a Dwarf Fortress? That's a really cool slant on it, I think.And if the agents win they unleash the HFS, yeah.
Post by: lijacote on April 05, 2015, 07:36:26 pm
How about this slightly different take on the Artifice oneI like this. I endorse it. It is Dwarf Fortress. Dig too deep...
The (Fallen) Primal of Artifice:
Appearance: Statue in the middle of a small ruin
Power: Through the sacrifice of "offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created" it creates powerful armor and weapons for those making the offerings.
Campaign effect:
Heroes overwhelming victory: The ruin around the statue transforms into a bustling strong-walled fortress for the good guys, one that continues to export powerful weapons and armor for heroes to use.
Agent overwhelming victory: The ruin grows in size and releases a large army of powerful twisted demons that attempt to slaughter everything nearby, and begins to occasionally generate small demon groups after the original wave.
I think that might capture the overall essence of DF a bit more than just exporting weapons personally.
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 05, 2015, 07:41:02 pm
How about this slightly different take on the Artifice one
The (Fallen) Primal of Artifice:
Appearance: Statue in the middle of a small ruin
Power: Through the sacrifice of "offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created" it creates powerful armor and weapons for those making the offerings.
Campaign effect:
Heroes overwhelming victory: The ruin around the statue transforms into a bustling strong-walled fortress for the good guys, one that continues to export powerful weapons and armor for heroes to use.
Agent overwhelming victory: The ruin grows in size and releases a large army of powerful twisted demons that attempt to slaughter everything nearby, and begins to occasionally generate small demon groups after the original wave.
I think that might capture the overall essence of DF a bit more than just exporting weapons personally.
If this is possible, this.
Post by: Darkmere on April 05, 2015, 08:06:50 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on April 05, 2015, 09:53:53 pm
How about this slightly different take on the Artifice one
The (Fallen) Primal of Artifice:
Appearance: Statue in the middle of a small ruin
Power: Through the sacrifice of "offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created" it creates powerful armor and weapons for those making the offerings.
Campaign effect:
Heroes overwhelming victory: The ruin around the statue transforms into a bustling strong-walled fortress for the good guys, one that continues to export powerful weapons and armor for heroes to use.
Agent overwhelming victory: The ruin grows in size and releases a large army of powerful twisted demons that attempt to slaughter everything nearby, and begins to occasionally generate small demon groups after the original wave.
I think that might capture the overall essence of DF a bit more than just exporting weapons personally.
If this is possible, this.
Definitely possible, and to further honor the source the "Heroic Victory" can be tied to Dwarfs forming a new hold. In TWS Dwarf society splits when their is too much dissent in a single hold and the dissenters go off to either found a new Hold or reclaim a lost one.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 06, 2015, 04:26:55 am
Can we have a bit more info on how the underground layer functions, by the way? Maybe a quick picture or illustration? Is the PoI map separate from the overland map or are the two the same and connected? Am I even remembering correctly that there was going to be an underground map layer?
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on April 06, 2015, 04:54:45 am
I like the 'ruin becomes good guy fortress/dwarf hold' bit, but the Agent victory is a bit ehh. First of all it doesn't sound very controlled and possibly even harmful to your own efforts, even if more chaos is good for the Old One in general. It also seems too removed from the good guy victory. I think they should be more thematically connected. Sticking to the Primal itself, perhaps the statue (and thus the ruins it commands) can be enslaved and awakened by the Agent to actually march out and cause destruction, or to build an army of mindless iron warriors. The demons, while DF-related, come from nowhere right now, and don't really fit the 'orderly' feel of the statue itself.
Can we have a bit more info on how the underground layer functions, by the way? Maybe a quick picture or illustration? Is the PoI map separate from the overland map or are the two the same and connected? Am I even remembering correctly that there was going to be an underground map layer?
Unfortunately there isn't really an underground that connects together just an "Underground" POI used for dwarf holds and ruins. The lowest level connects to an "Underworld" abstract zone that can spit out the Heroes/Agents anywhere in the world.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 06, 2015, 04:58:10 am
Post by: gimli on April 06, 2015, 05:24:06 am
- The challenge & faction panels are looking good, even tho I can see that they are not finished.
- Guilds: "Guilds come in three forms - Thief, Merchant, Mage". It feels weird that there is a thief and a mage guild, but no warrior/fighter guild has been formed in the [vanilla] game world?
PS. No video has been attached. -> "After being trounced by bugs the last two weeks, we'll be resuming videos with some of our "free" time. Modding will have to take priority since the release is imminent, but we'll keep releasing screenshots of new functionality periodically to wet appetites before we release more dev logs. It has just been a question of time."
PPS. I have a feeling that the release date will be pushed back, but it's allright. Unfinished, beta games released as v1.0 are a big no-no! :)
Post by: Zangi on April 06, 2015, 12:19:32 pm
For clarification, would the statue spit out excellent equipment all on its own? Or would it still need a population of crafters under its influence? (Since it does need to have a good reason to attract settlers.)How about this slightly different take on the Artifice one
The (Fallen) Primal of Artifice:
Appearance: Statue in the middle of a small ruin
Power: Through the sacrifice of "offerings of blood and bones, flesh, alcohol, precious stones, weapons... primal things that we fought for, that we made for killing, that we created" it creates powerful armor and weapons for those making the offerings.
Campaign effect:
Heroes overwhelming victory: The ruin around the statue transforms into a bustling strong-walled fortress for the good guys, one that continues to export powerful weapons and armor for heroes to use.
Agent overwhelming victory: The ruin grows in size and releases a large army of powerful twisted demons that attempt to slaughter everything nearby, and begins to occasionally generate small demon groups after the original wave.
I think that might capture the overall essence of DF a bit more than just exporting weapons personally.
If this is possible, this.
Definitely possible, and to further honor the source the "Heroic Victory" can be tied to Dwarfs forming a new hold. In TWS Dwarf society splits when their is too much dissent in a single hold and the dissenters go off to either found a new Hold or reclaim a lost one.
Though such a defeat, for 'your' side... comes a new opportunity... at the very least, such a stronghold would be one of the pillars of any competent war industry, for the alliance or an empire bent on world domination. Or neutral as a mercenary/bandit/sellsword/warlord stronghold and/or merchant city-state emerging from it... with some nudging. And I guess there is outright corruption.
The Agent victory sounds lackluster, but you just gotta frame that right.
A new fortress of demons or *insert race here*, under 'your' influence, forms up around the statue. Pretty much the same as Hero victory, except with different owners.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 06, 2015, 12:37:31 pm
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on April 06, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
That's kind of boring though, seeing as this is a game all about asymmetrical powers and factions, at least when it comes to good-evil.
You can spawn a Lesser Evil or an Overlord type Modifier, both of which follow their own Agenda (much simpler for Overlords) and you can either attempt to work with them or allow them free reign, which generally benefits you. We don't have a lot of flexibility to make new ones within this scope since they are quite complex but if everyone can agree on a general archetype I'm sure one of the options will fit it.
Post by: Darkmere on April 06, 2015, 01:33:13 pm
Post by: Zangi on April 06, 2015, 01:35:08 pm
That's kind of boring though, seeing as this is a game all about asymmetrical powers and factions, at least when it comes to good-evil.That is what the suggestion essentially is though...
If you want to go elsewhere with the thing, an Agent victory could give the Primal of Artifice life. Allow it to walk the land... and I guess in overwhelming victory mode, follow the agent around/become a minion. And pyrrhic victory, it'll go off to do its own things, creating awesome yet terrifying weaponry and equipment with its own hands... and I guess gain a cult following of craftspeople/worshippers toiling endlessly for whatever its goals are, in hopes of gaining its blessings/strange moods.
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 06, 2015, 01:36:50 pm
Morbid curiosity, just because we're not completely familiar with the systems...
If this Primal does make it into the game in this form, the Alliance does does claim it - or whatever the proper phrasing for that is - but at the time the Dwarves are staunchly anti-Alliance, do the dwarves just get another hold and the Alliance is still deprived of it? Because that would be amusing.
And personally, the chance of a pyrhhic victory is actually kinda exciting to me. If solely because that alone actually captures the DF feel more than anything else :\
Post by: KingDinosaurGames on April 06, 2015, 03:15:23 pm
I'd think spawning a Lesser Evil would be the most fitting. It's probably not such an immediate gain to the Old One, but then again, plopping down another Dwarf Hold might not be such an immediate gain to the alliance, so at least they're matching.
Morbid curiosity, just because we're not completely familiar with the systems...
If this Primal does make it into the game in this form, the Alliance does does claim it - or whatever the proper phrasing for that is - but at the time the Dwarves are staunchly anti-Alliance, do the dwarves just get another hold and the Alliance is still deprived of it? Because that would be amusing.
And personally, the chance of a pyrhhic victory is actually kinda exciting to me. If solely because that alone actually captures the DF feel more than anything else :\
This is actually a major part of learning how to win TWS - you can't oppose every Gold Campaign that pops up so you need to try and minimize/neutralize the impact of a Heroic Victory. So even if the Dwarfs gain a new legendary Clanhold perhaps you've already worked to drive a wedge between Dwarfs and Humans which would make them much less likely to help the Alliance, or if you now that Dwarfs will be a major enemy you can work to bolster underground enemies or prepare an army capable of defeating Dwarfs.
Post by: Lapoleon on April 13, 2015, 09:33:28 am
Quote
The Yizrii
Long thought to be a race of solitary hunters and mystics, the insectoid Yizrii emerged en masse from their long hibernation to quickly re-establish themselves as a world power. Attempts at diplomacy proved fruitless at first, the strange creatures passed through great periods of isolation only to explode outward without warning, moving as a swarm to claim and ravage an area before constructing enormous complex organic structures within the newly Harvested area. In time relations would develop between the Yizrii and the other races, and some measure of peace was established - though few truly know what occurs within the "Gardens" they tend or when the next Frenzy will occur.
Sample Classes
Yizrii Tonal - Yizrii utilize crystals they grow to regulate their society, soothing their impulses as well as granting them a modicum of power that the crystals inherit from the depths. A Tonal specializes in the evolution of crystals seeking the resonance that will enable their race to ascend the cycle that devastates themselves as much as those unfortunate enough to be in their way.
Yizrii Paragon- In the Frenzy the young must consume the elderly, but a Paragon is the rare Yizrii that survives multiple Cycles. Maintaining the knowledge of their society in the midst of so much loss they serve as the bedrock for a new generation.
Governments
The Hive - A Yizrii Hive inhabits a Garden, maintaining the Crystal Fields that make up the Garden's core. In this form the Yizrii are communal and make decisions through large scale representation. Most Hives are isolationist but some do trade and interact with their neighbors, functioning as a normal part of the traditional political structure.
The Harvest- At the height of the Cycle the Yizrii government collapses and undergoes a process known as The Frenzy, though outsiders refer to it only as the Harvest. In this state the Yizrii retain their intelligence and powers but their focus becomes the creation of a new Garden through the total and complete destruction of a region of the world. The Harvest is, surprisingly, still an incredibly complex government structure with competing factions and interests but the form is distinct from The Hive featuring numerous acts of internecine violence.
The weekly update was also good with plenty (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SampleDreamlands.png)of (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SampleNightWhisper.png) screenshots (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SisyphusRedux.png). Old One abilities are extremely deep and complicated with many different options. Time was mostly spend stepping on bugs. Modding tools release is as always imminent and videos will hopefully be on the horizon as the largest remaining bugs will be squashed in a day or two.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 13, 2015, 10:18:50 am
Post by: nenjin on April 13, 2015, 10:36:51 am
Post by: gimli on April 13, 2015, 10:40:20 am
Where are you seeing this weekly update? I checked KS, the blog. The forums are slow and because they have umpteenmillion threads and no actual announcement thread, finding anything they say is a pain in the ass.
This is it (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=271).
Post by: sjm9876 on April 13, 2015, 11:31:28 am
Also, the Yizrii have finally torn me away from my minotaur dedication. They just look really interesting gameplay-wise. And with TWS being TWS, I'm sure there are ways to guide them for maximum destruction.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 17, 2015, 11:40:57 am
The videos the developer has put up were great but he doesn't seem to understand how to get the volume balance right so either he sounds underwater or the music is so loud I cannot hear him sometimes. I'd love to see something more, just walking through parts of a normal playthrough.
Post by: dennislp3 on April 17, 2015, 11:43:07 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 17, 2015, 11:47:33 am
A few good videos from some big names on youtube could generate a lot of buzz for this. Its already looking very solid and polished.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 17, 2015, 01:24:38 pm
I need to see more about this game. Will there be alpha/beta access? Will anyone be doing a LP or showcase?
The videos the developer has put up were great but he doesn't seem to understand how to get the volume balance right so either he sounds underwater or the music is so loud I cannot hear him sometimes. I'd love to see something more, just walking through parts of a normal playthrough.
We'll hopefully be seeing that soon. The mod tools will hopefully be released in the near future, I'm holding out hope for this weekend. Beta probably two or three weeks after that. Then I'm making a safe bet on an August full release. They plan to release videos when the mod tools are done and they can make them.
Post by: Lapoleon on April 20, 2015, 05:53:40 am
Post by: gimli on April 20, 2015, 06:45:31 am
Post by: lijacote on April 20, 2015, 05:03:47 pm
Quote
Opportunities tend to have a range of actions go from innocuous to extremely blatant. In this sample we've posted you see what happens when heroes invade one of your dungeons looking for loot. In this instance you have several methods for dealing with them:
- You can rouse the denizens of the dungeon to attack them.
- Transfer a cursed item or artifact to them in secret.
- Infiltrate their group to gain information.
- Attack them directly with your Agent.
Post by: Karlito on April 20, 2015, 05:21:09 pm
Anyway, I'm glad they've consistently been putting out weekly updates. The screenshot previews we've seen recently look great, especially when you compare it to the prekickstarter previews.
Post by: Lapoleon on April 23, 2015, 09:33:52 am
Q: In your testing, what is the most awesome thing you've seen a really desperate AI do?
A: My favorite thing was much earlier, before we had the stat "Desperation" - but a massive orc horde was moving in from the south on what had become a large breakaway monarchy from Arden, and when tribals invade their are many ways to respond to the problem 'without violence.' So the Queen offers to marry the Orc Chief, who accepts, and becomes King Gna'kar I of the Orleen Dynasty. To make it even worse, he was a fair and just ruler who would later join the Alliance.
Meanwhile Josh has let slip that the Dragonkin will be added as a major race even though they didn't win the previous vote and there are quite a few Lovecraftian races present(Mi Go, Deep Ones, Great Race).
We'll also be seeing the new Modding video today, with further videos and the tools themselves being released during the weekend.
Post by: Darkmere on April 23, 2015, 01:54:01 pm
there are quite a few Lovecraftian races present(Mi Go, Deep Ones, Great Race).
If I wasn't sold before I sure as hell am now.
Post by: gimli on April 24, 2015, 06:04:33 am
We'll also be seeing the new Modding video today
..or not. :D
Anyway, they still haven't improved the vanilla map gfx. It's still the same and it looks bad [especially the PoIs], except for the mountains maybe. Perhaps they plan to upgrade these while we're in the beta. [Not a real problem, since we can mod these as well, it was just a side note.]
Post by: Cthulhu on April 24, 2015, 06:08:01 am
I've also got faith that the mod tools will be released this weekend. Sunday at like 4 AM if the trend continues. After that, I'm expecting two weeks to a month for beta.
I've been hurt before but I'm putting my trust in this one. Probably the last time I'll ever follow a game like this. Getting an internship this summer and beginning my Real Life.
Post by: Lapoleon on April 24, 2015, 06:16:12 am
there are quite a few Lovecraftian races present(Mi Go, Deep Ones, Great Race).
If I wasn't sold before I sure as hell am now.
Since you're interested, here's what we know about them:
Mi Go: They'll send expeditions to dig up artefacts. They'll also take a look at what heroes/notables they'll find interesting, contact them and steal their brains after a while. Unfortunately, they might take an interest in one of your agents as well.
Deep Ones: The Deep Ones will spawn near coastal towns a will be able to create corrupted bloodlines, these might start on the scale of Innsmouth, but if the village grows into a larger city the corruption might spread to noble houses etc.
Great Race: Josh accidentally mentioned them, so we don't know what they'll do exactly. But presumably they'll be a good source of Lore and they'll mindswap with random heroes or Agents.
..or not. :DMy F5 key is getting tired :)
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 24, 2015, 08:40:14 am
Friday/Saturday/Sunday was their original plan so I'm banking on that being true here.
I've also got faith that the mod tools will be released this weekend. Sunday at like 4 AM if the trend continues. After that, I'm expecting two weeks to a month for beta.
I've been hurt before but I'm putting my trust in this one. Probably the last time I'll ever follow a game like this. Getting an internship this summer and beginning my Real Life.
I've mentioned it off hand on the forums but, as annoying as these delays are, the vast majority of my backed Kickstarter games were doing great to release 9 months to a year late. So I'm not too worried.
Though for personal selfish reasons I would like everything to gist start working.
Post by: nenjin on April 24, 2015, 08:47:13 am
Quote
I've been hurt before but I'm putting my trust in this one.
Don't worry Cthulhu, you'll love again.
Post by: Darkmere on April 24, 2015, 09:30:09 am
Lovecraft Stuff
Thanks for the summary. I'm one of the unwashed who's waiting till release so I don't get super-special infos.
I'm glad someone's taking time to do the races right. It's cool that people put their own spin on things but by now it seems like everyone's just retelling HPL their own way because it's kinda underground trendy.
And it's back to lurking for me....
Post by: gimli on April 26, 2015, 06:48:23 am
Post by: ventuswings on April 26, 2015, 06:43:30 pm
On the side note, I'm pleased to hear that Dragonkin and The Devourer (?) will be making their entrance into the game despite their lack of popularity. When you don't have enough influence to convert the masses, brute-force your will by performing secret rituals in the basement! 8)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 26, 2015, 09:01:26 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on April 26, 2015, 10:12:25 pm
Post by: gimli on April 27, 2015, 05:01:59 am
Can't wait to see all these mechanics play out in the field.
Yeah, and on a related note, we can just only hope, that the AI will be good enough to react properly to the player's actions. Basically the whole game is about manipulating the AI controlled world [kingdoms, heroes, rulers, agents etc..] The gameplay mechanics are decent and also complex so I am a bit worried that the AI won't be good enough to offer a real challenge, but we shall see. I wouldn't mind if the game would stay in beta for a half year [or more] even to polish the gameplay and the AI as well for the v1.0 release.
Oh, and here is Project Update 4-27-2015 (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=281).
"We did NOT release the Mod Tools, lacking the time to fix some issues found we'll be releasing them once we've fixed them. We do have the two remaining videos to release, and we're preparing a video on Military Combat which has been often requested."
I just can't wait to see this military combat video. 8)
Post by: Zangi on April 27, 2015, 06:55:26 am
Post by: Cthulhu on April 27, 2015, 01:02:07 pm
One thing I'm not mega-excited about, but I don't see many other ways to do it, is the whole "you have all these powers but if you use them you'll get stomped" thing. Sometimes I want to be the huge bad guy smashing an enemy who has no chance. My mod idea is sort of leaning towards this.
Spoiler: My mod idea (click to show/hide)
You can sort of see where I'm trying to go with power. I'll be tuning it so you have to be subtle and everything, but once you've got the initiative the god's designed to end the game in spectacular fashion with a flying battlestation and world-scarring magitech weaponry. If it's possible I'll also give The Abomination Project special results if you corrupt the chosen one, again designed with a philosophy of "If you can pull this off you're going to win anyway so we may as well have fun with totally overpowered shit"
Post by: Xantalos on April 27, 2015, 02:15:55 pm
Post by: Zangi on April 27, 2015, 02:39:52 pm
I'm not too worried, they've apparently got playtesters who've been playing.The main problem is if those playtesters have been at it the whole time, what with repetition and everything. They'll end up knowing the mechanics like the back of their hand and difficulty could be based on what they consider 'normal'.
/justmaybeallbasescouldbecovereddownthelineifithasn'tbeenalready
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 27, 2015, 02:57:56 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on April 27, 2015, 03:13:39 pm
I've got an alternate map where they live in a huge island on the end of the archipelago. Here (http://i.imgur.com/sd80ewz.png) it is in-editor. It's a lot more cramped than I expected, depending on how sea-travel works I may need to make the map bigger or the landmasses smaller.
I'm thinking two types of sylvan folk. The new island is half forest and half swamp with a mountain range in between. One half is honorable and upright and extremely rigid while the other is wild and chaotic and dangerous. Neither is good or evil, they're beyond that. Both can be manipulated.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 27, 2015, 03:39:32 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 27, 2015, 05:10:23 pm
I'm not too worried, they've apparently got playtesters who've been playing.The main problem is if those playtesters have been at it the whole time, what with repetition and everything. They'll end up knowing the mechanics like the back of their hand and difficulty could be based on what they consider 'normal'.
/justmaybeallbasescouldbecovereddownthelineifithasn'tbeenalready
The beta testers (as in, the people who backed at a beta level - not the current playtesters) are apparently the line of defense for that - the game won't be released to the wider public until the beta testers give the go-ahead.
Post by: ventuswings on April 27, 2015, 08:11:37 pm
As for the normal game, I read on another forum that dev actually expect new players to fail several times due to nature of the game - without experience, they could not identify seemingly insignificant variables that would in the future become major threats if left uncontrolled. Sounds like some understanding of the game mechanics, though probably not "like back of their hand", is critical foundation for the success, which one should ascertain through repetition.
Post by: gimli on April 28, 2015, 09:09:59 am
From what I understand, the difficulty is flexible and widely influenced by whatever option you use to employ. I remember reading even devs found game impossible with combination of "wise leaders" and "strong hero" option; of course, these could be considered major tweaks, what I meant to say was the difficulty should probably not be a problem with so many 'sliders' one can adjust to find challenge perfect for you.
Oh boy, the harder the better! These 2 options -what you've mentioned- [wise leaders & strong heroes] will be excellent for endless mode. 8)
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 28, 2015, 09:53:57 am
I was thinking the other day that it would be very cool if there were a 'soft lose' condition which didn't result in your death but rather put you back to sleep for another century or two. This has the game advance time, politics change, borders change, some knowledge of you is forgotten... but maybe a few enduring cults maintain knowledge of you and awaken you again, or stand ready to oppose you.
Post by: gimli on April 28, 2015, 10:07:51 am
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 28, 2015, 11:48:29 am
It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 28, 2015, 11:55:24 am
Post by: gimli on April 28, 2015, 12:31:42 pm
It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
I guess only KDG knows the proper answer to your question. I don't know too much about the wiki sites, which one is the best anyway?
Post by: Demonic Spoon on April 28, 2015, 02:36:20 pm
A dead tree manual.It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
I guess only KDG knows the proper answer to your question. I don't know too much about the wiki sites, which one is the best anyway?
Post by: Lapoleon on April 29, 2015, 07:16:06 am
It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
As the main wiki contributor I'm curious what your problem is. I use adblock as well, but I haven't had any problems with the formatting.
This wiki is what we are using for the game unless we get more complaints. This is the first I've heard about it at least. There's also an in game wiki along the lines of Civopedia.
Post by: gimli on April 29, 2015, 07:20:52 am
A dead tree manual.It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
I guess only KDG knows the proper answer to your question. I don't know too much about the wiki sites, which one is the best anyway?
I've still got my Dominions 3. manual, because it's _THAT_ awesome and well detailed.
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 29, 2015, 05:32:26 pm
It's a Kickstarter stretch goal, so this gameplay mode will be added later on. When they add it, I am pretty sure that I will play in this mode only, since it offers extended & enhanced gameplay [IE. looooooooong & epicly fun games!]. 8)
Anyway, you can read about it here: http://thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/Endless_Mode
...Is that going to be the long-term home of the wiki? It's really not a fun site to browse - Adblock takes out some of the formatting, making it impossible to read, but disabling adblock gets me bombarded with ads.
As the main wiki contributor I'm curious what your problem is. I use adblock as well, but I haven't had any problems with the formatting.
This wiki is what we are using for the game unless we get more complaints. This is the first I've heard about it at least. There's also an in game wiki along the lines of Civopedia.
Ya know, I started looking into it, and I know what the problem was... but not what exactly happened.
The problem was that Firefox either wasn't loading the background image, wasn't properly caching the background image, or was failing to properly apply the background image:
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/thatwhichsleeps.gamepedia.com/1/1f/Background.jpg
After I dug up the link to the background image and loaded it separately, Firefox must've managed to cache it correctly because it now shows up just fine.
I hope my problems with the gigantic pile of ads without adblock are fairly explanatory, though - those don't leave a good impression.
Post by: i2amroy on April 29, 2015, 05:48:14 pm
Post by: gimli on May 04, 2015, 07:54:02 am
Post by: lijacote on May 04, 2015, 10:27:41 am
Post by: gimli on May 04, 2015, 11:17:28 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lijacote on May 04, 2015, 03:42:08 pm
Here you go.Thanks!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: gimli on June 01, 2015, 07:35:06 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 01, 2015, 11:34:29 am
Finally...Project Update 6-1-2015 (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=297)!
TL;DR: We bit off more then we can easily chew, so it's going to take awhile to get all the stuff we promised in kickstarter into the game.
Post by: gimli on June 01, 2015, 12:02:37 pm
Anyway...more info about the delay:
"The last month has been a strange one - I had expected to be away for 10 days but it has unfortunately ended up being closer to double that. In addition, problems with the data structure and back-end (which is essentially the entire "game") continued for weeks before I had to leave leading up to a botched release of the Mod Tools to the Mod Backers. The game is simply so much more complex now than it ever was that the "little additions" grew too large for the underlying simplicity - we're in the process of fixing this now."
Post by: nenjin on June 01, 2015, 12:03:37 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on June 01, 2015, 03:39:49 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 01, 2015, 06:24:15 pm
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 01, 2015, 06:45:02 pm
It's a kickstarter game. The last thing I ever expect when I back a game is that it's going to be released in a timely fashion. :p
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
I don't remember if I posted it, but I did predict a christmas release.
All the best for KDG.
Post by: dennislp3 on June 01, 2015, 07:02:21 pm
It's a kickstarter game. The last thing I ever expect when I back a game is that it's going to be released in a timely fashion. :p
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
Thats the way I see it...sometimes I forget I backed something and when I get an email months later about a 1.0 release I am pleasantly surprised lol
Post by: nenjin on June 01, 2015, 07:22:02 pm
Post by: gimli on June 02, 2015, 07:00:45 am
It's a kickstarter game. The last thing I ever expect when I back a game is that it's going to be released in a timely fashion. :p
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
Yeah, yeah, I guess everyone agrees on that. Let's hope that the beta test will go smoothly, since the devs are willing to listen. [..on a side note: I was beta testing many games, and the worst was the EWoM beta. Frogboy and Stardock gave no f*ck about any of our suggestions, so basically the whole beta process was all about fixing CTDs and bugs. It's funny that they finally released the game with tons of CTDs and bugs as well...as we all know it was a disastrous release.]
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 03, 2015, 09:18:24 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 03, 2015, 09:23:49 am
EWOM is the only game in the last 5 years which I have actually requested a refund on.It's a kickstarter game. The last thing I ever expect when I back a game is that it's going to be released in a timely fashion. :p
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
Yeah, yeah, I guess everyone agrees on that. Let's hope that the beta test will go smoothly, since the devs are willing to listen. [..on a side note: I was beta testing many games, and the worst was the EWoM beta. Frogboy and Stardock gave no f*ck about any of our suggestions, so basically the whole beta process was all about fixing CTDs and bugs. It's funny that they finally released the game with tons of CTDs and bugs as well...as we all know it was a disastrous release.]
Post by: Zangi on June 03, 2015, 09:26:40 am
Post by: Culise on June 03, 2015, 09:43:23 am
Post by: gimli on June 03, 2015, 09:45:24 am
EWOM is the only game in the last 5 years which I have actually requested a refund on.It's a kickstarter game. The last thing I ever expect when I back a game is that it's going to be released in a timely fashion. :p
As long as we get a quality product in the end, I really don't care.
Yeah, yeah, I guess everyone agrees on that. Let's hope that the beta test will go smoothly, since the devs are willing to listen. [..on a side note: I was beta testing many games, and the worst was the EWoM beta. Frogboy and Stardock gave no f*ck about any of our suggestions, so basically the whole beta process was all about fixing CTDs and bugs. It's funny that they finally released the game with tons of CTDs and bugs as well...as we all know it was a disastrous release.]
Well, Stardock acknowledged their error, so we -who bought the game at the beta phase- received all of the expansions for free. The latest expansion FE:LH is a decent game tbh, you can't even compare it to EWoM in quality. I would give EWoM a 2/10 and FE:LH should be around 8/10 on the fantasy strategy market.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 04, 2015, 04:25:37 pm
Post by: Nick K on June 04, 2015, 06:15:20 pm
For fantasy strategy games though, my clear recommendation would be Age of Wonders 3 rather than FE. I played that recently and it really is very good indeed.
Post by: nenjin on June 04, 2015, 06:18:55 pm
Post by: gimli on June 05, 2015, 06:30:01 am
For fantasy strategy games though, my clear recommendation would be Age of Wonders 3 rather than FE. I played that recently and it really is very good indeed.
Hm..I can't say that I prefer AoW 3. AoW 3. was extremely bland on launch, but it was much better than EWoM at release of course. Now with the latest expansion - Eternal Lords, the game is allright, I would rate it 8/10 as well...for some weird reason (?) I still prefer AoW - SM over these games. Sadly, the AI is mediocre or worse in all of these games, and since I never play strategy games online, it's kinda annoying.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 05, 2015, 09:26:53 am
Post by: Retropunch on June 05, 2015, 10:07:15 am
Endless legend
Seconded, Endless Legend is very good. I did not like AoW3 at all really.
Post by: gimli on June 06, 2015, 08:56:20 am
Post by: gimli on June 09, 2015, 05:30:34 am
...aaaand finally, some info about the bloodlines system!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on June 09, 2015, 06:34:30 am
Post by: nenjin on June 09, 2015, 09:11:52 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 09, 2015, 09:15:31 am
Post by: dennislp3 on June 09, 2015, 11:09:47 am
Post by: Xantalos on June 09, 2015, 12:19:57 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on June 09, 2015, 12:40:29 pm
"Sorry guys delayed because adding facebook connectivity is taking longer than usual" *shoots self in face*
Post by: Zangi on June 09, 2015, 01:19:21 pm
While I normally might agree with you, nenjin, I'm too excited over the prospect of having the Chosen One come at me with everything he's got only for me to activate the horrendous mutation I put into his bloodline a billion years ago to be activated at the perfect moment.If I'm understanding the mechanics of the game. It would be more like -
Old One #1, screwing around with bloodlines.
Old One #1 eventually put back to sleep.
Centuries/Millennial later, Old One #3 comes forth, finds descendant of one of the bloodlines Old One #1 screwed with.
Old One #3 takes advantage of it.
At least, what with all the simulation, defeat is not the ultimate defeat and victory is not the ultimate victory.
Post by: gimli on June 09, 2015, 04:34:01 pm
The extra features are things they had planned...they are technically only doing what they promised and didn't estimate the time it would take to add all the kickstarter stuff into the game properly. I have yet to really see any reason to worry just yet
Yep, and I guess it's clear, that this system will shine in endless mode, which will be added later on.
Here is a reply by Josh[dev]: "In the current scenarios you won't be dealing with more than a generation or two so you're mostly interacting with the Heritage and Ancient bloodlines, but the depth that this will bring to both Procedural/Endless as well as future scenarios with a grander scope seems very rewarding."
Post by: Lapoleon on June 10, 2015, 03:27:33 am
The bloodlines have been in for a while, since the feature lock has been in place for more than a month. Current delays are due to a problem in the data structure of the code.
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 10, 2015, 10:15:38 am
I must say I'm a little worried about all these bells and whistles like bloodlines. It reminds me of some P&P RPGs where the focus of the developers wanders from the main things to adding million different little rules on top of the core game. It has the risk of losing the sight of the main meal and getting lost among the details. I hope they'll hone the basic stuff to work fine instead of jumping from one system to another and leaving all half-assed.
They mentioned off-hand last time bloodlines were mentioned that the system was implemented to help properly realize what one of the high-level kickstarter backers wanted.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 10, 2015, 11:28:14 am
added now because it's easier to do it now than to rewrite the code laterWell yes, that is literally the whole point of the alpha phase of software development. The worry is the sheer amount of feature creep, not that features take time to add which I think we all understand.
Post by: StupidElves on June 10, 2015, 11:38:59 am
Whenever I see forsaken1111's avatar, I cannot help but sit and stare until it loops so that I can see the perfect game of snake.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 10, 2015, 11:40:55 am
This has nothing to do with That Which Sleeps.I do it too.
Whenever I see forsaken1111's avatar, I cannot help but sit and stare until it loops so that I can see the perfect game of snake.
I've tried to change it several times but I never can bring myself to do it.
Great now I'm staring at it again.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 10, 2015, 11:42:23 am
Post by: Malus on June 12, 2015, 05:10:10 pm
The more I read about TWS, the more I wish I backed the Kickstarter.
Post by: Lapoleon on June 15, 2015, 02:44:00 am
The more I read about TWS, the more I wish I backed the Kickstarter.
You can still back the game through their website. Since we're hopefully finally nearing the beta this might be the best time to buy yourself access.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 15, 2015, 06:56:30 am
I'm waiting for it to be available via steam personally as I have money in steam wallet to use.
The more I read about TWS, the more I wish I backed the Kickstarter.
You can still back the game through their website. Since we're hopefully finally nearing the beta this might be the best time to buy yourself access.
Post by: Hawk132 on June 20, 2015, 05:42:02 am
Post by: i2amroy on June 20, 2015, 11:26:33 am
Honestly I'm not seeing much more than the average amount of feature creep going on here (which tends to happen at least a little in most projects). What I'm seeing happening a lot more is them having laid down a bunch of awesome, high-level ideas (either through the kickstarter or on request of higher-level backers), and then having to go back and backfill all of the smaller, lesser things to make those ideas possible. As a code person I'd say that we probably aren't to the point where we need to be worried yet. :)added now because it's easier to do it now than to rewrite the code laterWell yes, that is literally the whole point of the alpha phase of software development. The worry is the sheer amount of feature creep, not that features take time to add which I think we all understand.
Post by: wer6 on June 20, 2015, 01:29:27 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 20, 2015, 01:36:18 pm
As a non-backer, can someone basically sum up what has happened in the past month?
A lot of work?
Post by: Karlito on June 20, 2015, 01:39:34 pm
Quote from: State of the Project
I've finally fixed the data structures and am just testing now to make sure it's completely fixed. This means that our final (complete) mod tools release is imminent complete with all of the many map features that we've added in the past 3 months. Finally our modders can begin trailblazing some exciting new worlds for our players. More excitedly once that release is squared away we're just an AI update away from the Beta - all of the GUI elements (outside of animation but we're holding off on that till the beta) are complete, the fundamental content pieces have been updated (though we'll need to do a quick update again after this most recent data update). We'll be updating with more concrete information when we feel comfortable doing that.
Post by: dennislp3 on June 20, 2015, 01:42:49 pm
Post by: gimli on June 21, 2015, 09:33:41 am
Post by: nenjin on June 21, 2015, 02:35:52 pm
Like most things in TWS though, I still only have a vague idea of how it might actually play out. There are so many consequences and interactions (part of what I love about the game) but it makes you wonder how much of this is known because they wrote it and created it, and how much is accessible to the player without a wiki or dozens of hours of gameplay. My example would be "cursing crops that someone else blessed potentially turning the blame on them." Is that interaction stated anywhere in the ritual summation? Will you be notified if happens, and will it reference the fact your ritual caused their Cropsinger to get burned at the stake? It goes back to something I said at the start of the thread, where the game will have to work hard to make the player aware of the chain of reactions flowing from their decisions.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 24, 2015, 02:54:46 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 24, 2015, 04:07:24 am
Post by: gimli on June 28, 2015, 10:44:31 am
Ex.: Basic units have no attributes or anything -> " Basic soldiers are effectively the hit points of an army" [not even racial mods??]
Upkeep system -> "Armies are very simplified in our system - manpower and composition are determined by government and cultural values as opposed to maintenance costs and build orders. Each raised army costs 1 gold and 1 food a turn, as does each Elite Unit. Initial recruitment as well as repair costs iron. Armies are assumed to be foraging and any forays into more barren areas will increase cost of supply for the army. I anticipate some people will question our choice of a simplified resource system for armies but it GREATLY increases our ability to make a realistic AI."
However the design & implementation of the elite units sounds good already!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 28, 2015, 11:00:40 am
Post by: nenjin on June 28, 2015, 02:17:46 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on June 28, 2015, 02:38:43 pm
That's not quite right, they mentioned somewhere (I think one of the modding videos) that racial health determines the HP of the basic units and I assume that Will and Attack will also influence the basic soldiers so an Orcish army without Elite Units should still be stronger than a gnomish army.
Ex.: Basic units have no attributes or anything -> " Basic soldiers are effectively the hit points of an army" [not even racial mods??]
Post by: gimli on June 29, 2015, 09:53:30 am
That's not quite right, they mentioned somewhere (I think one of the modding videos) that racial health determines the HP of the basic units and I assume that Will and Attack will also influence the basic soldiers so an Orcish army without Elite Units should still be stronger than a gnomish army.
Ex.: Basic units have no attributes or anything -> " Basic soldiers are effectively the hit points of an army" [not even racial mods??]
That sounds better. :)
Post by: Neonivek on June 29, 2015, 10:01:07 am
Magic system sounds great. Thank freaking god they've thought harder about it than "Fire, Ice, Lightning" blah video game magic theory.
Those systems would be fine too... If they thought about them other then Damage over time, slowing things down, and lots of instant damage.
Post by: nenjin on June 29, 2015, 10:15:44 am
Magic system sounds great. Thank freaking god they've thought harder about it than "Fire, Ice, Lightning" blah video game magic theory.
Those systems would be fine too... If they thought about them other then Damage over time, slowing things down, and lots of instant damage.
Nope. Still the laziest design in just about any fantasy-based video game today.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 29, 2015, 12:52:30 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on June 29, 2015, 01:45:28 pm
Has he mentioned a beta date yet? I know the mod tools are coming out soon.
His partner Fenicks has sworn an oath to give Josh a good kick every time he mentions a date :) So we don't really know. As far as we Beta Backers know there are three steps left:
1: GUI: The battle screen is not quite right, this has mostly been finished and should be the focus of next weeks update
2: Mod Tools: Previously a mess due to problems with the internal database, this has now been fixed and they should be released soon according to official word.
3: The AI, there are still some things the AI need to relearn due to the many changes with the map, more types of AI entities and expanded Gods&Religion. This is the final and greatest hurdle. I have asked Josh to keep us informed about hilarious AI mistakes he runs across.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on June 29, 2015, 03:08:08 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on June 29, 2015, 03:13:17 pm
Post by: ventuswings on June 29, 2015, 04:23:32 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on June 30, 2015, 02:57:12 am
I've actually forgot if the developers intend to preserve $50 beta deal after it has officially been released, or it's limited time offer.They originally mentioned that the Beta-buy-in would end once Beta released, but that has been so long ago that it's probably no longer indicative of the current policy. I know that there are still new people entering beta at the moment.
I said it before, I say it again - delaying the beta for Mod Tools seems suboptimal, given its nature as a modular and seperate tool to the main game.Even we people with mod tools access find it a bit odd, but a large amount of the time spend on the tools has actually been spent on the game's databases and structure. Presumably the general idea is that modders will find odd things that normal beta backers won't be able to find.
Post by: Dyslexia96 on July 01, 2015, 11:57:46 am
I've actually forgot if the developers intend to preserve $50 beta deal after it has officially been released, or it's limited time offer.
I'm pretty sure the Beta deal will exist throughout the first half or so of the Beta, so there's no need to jump in now.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 01, 2015, 12:13:15 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 01, 2015, 05:30:44 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2015, 06:23:06 pm
Fenicks has said the beta package will still be available after beta. He actually suggested you wait until beta to get it. Given all the delays they don't want to give the impression that they're asking for money before the beta's out.
Considering the way things usually go today, that's mighty good of them.
Post by: Lapoleon on July 08, 2015, 03:11:10 am
Quote from: 'Josh'
Up until every Old One and Agent is rolled out we'll be testing the North Burns and its supplemental scenarios. Once those are signed off we're going to release those maps to the regular backers and the Beta Backers will move onto the Twilight Empire and its supplemental scenarios.
This should mean that the the normal backers won't have to wait as long to play the game and once they are able to play the other scenarios should only be in beta for a much shorter while.
The upcoming update should also be rather large, as it will cover the entire military system. According to Josh it would be out in the next couple of days (posted on the 6th) and according to the more reliant Fenicks it should be out over the weekend. It's actually quite fun to see how the devs bicker about dates and what "right after the 4th" actually means :D
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 08, 2015, 04:10:09 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on July 14, 2015, 09:36:00 am
(http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/BattleSample.png)
Post by: pondicherry on July 14, 2015, 06:17:45 pm
So,
is there a "When" for this ?
Post by: Karlito on July 14, 2015, 06:36:01 pm
So,
is there a "When" for this ?
Soontm.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on August 11, 2015, 04:37:20 pm
Post by: sjm9876 on August 11, 2015, 04:40:05 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 11, 2015, 06:44:32 pm
It's vertical now, with the agent and minions at the top and heroes at the bottom. The old blocking system is gone, instead heroes are divided into groups and the front line protects the back, note the forward-set character. You still have to do enough damage to hurt the front line to attack the back, but you can also use abilities to isolate characters and break up their groups. Characters alone in a group gain new options like hiding while ability mechanics change and new abilities become available to attack them I'm guessing stuff like the Baron's Dark Laurel that possesses a hero and turns him into a minion will only be available against isolated opponents now.
Post by: Lapoleon on August 12, 2015, 02:28:14 am
Post by: Egan_BW on August 12, 2015, 04:54:20 am
Post by: Lapoleon on September 01, 2015, 02:40:13 am
Mod Tools will be released this weekend and should contain the ability to mod everything except AI, Events and Challenges. These are the last things the dino's are working on for the actual Beta release which is also getting quite near. The tools should also provide a lot of spoiler information, as we'll be able to see all the Old One abilities etc.
The updates have been rather scarce, as Josh was really "in the zone" with fixing the tools and preparing the last few things for the Beta. But we've got lots of info on races and other stuff during the last week. It's quite a wall of text, so if anybody wants extra info on the elves, dwarves or lizardmen let me know and I'll post it.
Funny Beta testing anecdode:
Quote from: Josh
Beta - Had some interesting issues when implementing the advanced Fealty and Loyalty events, since we broke apart the race-specific governments we hadn't restored these AI actions and apparently in opening up the system we removed an implicit restriction on considering who to serve.
Within 30-40 turns one particularly charismatic Elf had acquired a retinue of orcs, humans, dwarves, lizardmen, ogres, gnomes, and even a Demon Prince. His reputation plummeted with the elves, but with the sheer force of his loyal followers he managed to maintain in power for 4 turns after he was "ousted" before finally being killed. The entire coterie immediately went over and joined some human Baron, and history repeated.
Fortunately we managed to mostly patch this up this week - making sure that those seeking lords are almost always looking for reasonable lieges and also making sure lieges can "push back" and deny unwanted servitors. I'm going to spend a couple of days fleshing this out a bit as it does have some merit, adding in a "prove your worth" series of events as well as a "I won't give up" if the claimant truly wishes to serve that individual, both leading perhaps to quests that instead inherit from the worth of the liege as opposed to the quest-or. On the other hand I want to work with some of the traits to see at what point a person should be pushed outside their comfort zone to look for more exotic lieges, and also what traits will conversely allow some odd servants (probably handling this through increasing a max allowed negative to relation due to vassals/servants).
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 01, 2015, 06:18:46 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2015, 09:46:33 am
As for the tools, I'm guessing "this weekend" will end up being 5 AM Monday morning.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2015, 04:16:03 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2015, 04:03:41 am
[img]http://rubbercat.net/simpsons/ralph_wiggum_in_thought.jpg[/url]
Dunno man. I honestly feel like they should go ahead and release the mod tools in their current state and patch them next week. I'm hyped as fuck still and I don't think the game's vaporware, but it's really killing the vibe. I can see how people like Vordrak would get salty, we still have nothing in our hands but some art and we're closing in on the one year mark for the kickstarter.
Post by: Cheeetar on September 05, 2015, 06:55:37 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 05, 2015, 07:38:40 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2015, 07:40:12 am
It is undeniably disappointing though. I was all hyped up to try it out this weekend, now I find out I've got another week to wait.
And if patterns hold up, another week after that for another minor bug that probably shouldn't hold up a release. And so on. Forever.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 05, 2015, 07:42:36 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 05, 2015, 07:45:05 am
I've just kinda, for a while now, not actually paid any heed to release dates or promises of any kind. The game will come out at some point, probably. Hopefully within the year.Same here. I've been ignoring the game. I didn't back it on kickstarter, mostly because I didn't know about it. For now I plan to pick it up at release but otherwise I'm trying to keep it out of mind.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 05, 2015, 10:47:39 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2015, 11:05:37 am
I mean how many people actually have access to the mod tools? There's 29 mod-tier backers plus me and maybe a couple more who snagged mod-tier afterward.
Of those, less than 10 are actually active. Maybe five people are gonna see this problem before it's fixed if they release now. In fact, I think I'm gonna bring it up. I don't think it'll matter, releases aren't really something you can say "oh well I changed my mind, let's release tomorrow" about, but still.
Post by: Mithras on September 05, 2015, 01:15:37 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on September 05, 2015, 01:24:46 pm
Post by: Innsmothe on September 05, 2015, 01:30:36 pm
having been following this for quite some time, it really feels like they've gotten away from the original idea and intent of the game, and now i've kinda written it off.That is like a poker player folding on anything other than 10 high or higher.
Fuck those guys.
ALL IN
It's better to play and lose, than never playing at all.
Post by: Darkmere on September 05, 2015, 01:35:38 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2015, 01:39:31 pm
The feature lock was months ago but I'm pretty sure I've seen quite a few new things come into the game. Stuff like the trade goods system. I'd like for them to stop that kind of thing and focus on getting the current features functional for beta. They'll have all the time they need to flesh the game out once the core experience works.
I haven't cooled as much as I've seen so many delays that I can't see the end of them anymore. I'm just like "wonder what'll happen between now and thursday to push it back again?" I'm hyped for the game but I've still got a nagging fear that it's all a prank, that a game this cool can't exist. It doesn't help that since the original post all the way back in August we haven't gotten our hands on a single concrete thing.
Yep, I admitted it. Ever since kickstarter I've had a nagging, irrational fear that the game isn't real. Every video that came out I couldn't help but pore over, trying to see if anything felt like a mockup. When the gameplay screenshots came out I looked at the map to see if anything was visibly changing. The only thing that can convince my monkey-brain that it isn't some kind of prank is actual hard content. And the continual delays on hard content have only made it worse.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 05, 2015, 01:43:39 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 05, 2015, 01:44:16 pm
I've only backed two kickstarters, Darkest Dungeon and this. And I restrained myself to the preorder tier because I'd be damned if I paid more than twice as much just to play a beta a few months before the release.
Now I'm kinda worried that perhaps I should have waited for release and paid retail price. After all, I've read about several kickstarters going bust. And all these delays *are* kind of worrying.
I hope my concerns end up being unfounded. Still. I had not realized we were nearing the year mark. Hrmrmhh
Post by: Cthulhu on September 05, 2015, 02:00:08 pm
This is the only thing I've ever kickstarted. I preordered a few games back when I was young and dumb and full of optimism, but this is the only game I'll ever kickstart. This is also the last game I plan on spending my mental energy on before release. Win or lose, this is the last time I let myself get hyped.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 05, 2015, 02:10:34 pm
The funny thing is that before getting involved in those two I disliked kickstarter as a concept quite a bit... because in practice you have all the disadvantages of being the capitalist partner of whatever you're backing (you provide the cash upfront and it's very much at risk) with none of the advantages (you don't really get a share for your investment)
Post by: i2amroy on September 05, 2015, 02:18:33 pm
From my experiences there's nothing wrong with kickstarting things, but it is important to remember that this isn't a pre-order. Games (even professionally developed ones, as I've pointed out) might take a couple of years since the kickstarter before they are actually released, and there's no sane way that you are going to be able to maintain hype all of the way through like you can do with a 1 month pre-order. Instead your goal should be to be hyped with the kickstarter, let it die down (unless you are helping to contribute to the game design, which is always fun), and then get hyped again when it actually gets released and you get a chance to play it.
Post by: nenjin on September 05, 2015, 02:36:20 pm
I'm not worried that it won't get finished, and I'm always happy to see really competent devs who can grow an idea instead of just executing the bare basics (which is where I feel like a lot of Kickstarters end up.) But at times it does seem like there's a lack of...urgency? to stick to stated objectives at KDG.
Post by: Darkmere on September 06, 2015, 02:47:28 am
they've never actually, really, sat down and shown what 30 mins of gameplay looks like.
This is what I couldn't really put my finger on before. Tons of nebulous ideas and I have no idea between all the races and politics and screenshots and concept art and new systems and and and... how the game actually works.
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 06, 2015, 09:31:10 pm
Another thing I've never admitted is sometimes I wish the kickstarter hadn't been so successful. Did we need procedural gen and endless mode and all these other features they had to redesign the engine to prepare for? If it'd been a modest success the game would probably already be out.
I think this is a big part of it. It's pretty par for the course of Kickstarted games, admittedy, but this is pretty much it. And the massive wait doesn't really come as a surprise for the serial kickstarter backers (I've been calling a significant wait, way beyond the listed date, literally since kickstarter completion - nothing out of the ordinary is happening).
Related to this, they apparently ran into problems where they needed to "redo the data structures", was I believe how they phrased it. Which translates, roughly, into "our foundation wasn't up to supporting everything we needed to do, so we had to tear it out and start anew". I'm not particularly worried about that - it's completely understandable, given the scope creep from stretch goals. And the fact they actually made it through the massive refactor, period, let alone as quickly as they did means I'm not terribly worried about whether they'll complete it or not. It also explains the lack of videos, too - it's likely the game barely even compiled for a good chunk of that time, let alone actually being playable to the extent its worth showing off.
I do agree that it doesn't feel like they're treating it with any real sense of urgency, though, and I would love to actually see gameplay videos. I'm still excited, but the bulk of that excitement has definitely cooled off - I barely even check the official forums anymore, and don't even really read through the dev threads when I do.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 11, 2015, 01:33:12 pm
I'm just like "wonder what'll happen between now and thursday to push it back again?"
(http://i.imgur.com/ytfqr7L.jpg)
The recent unity update broke some things. So it's not out yet. He said he'd try for today. I'm kind of expecting a weekend release though. If it refuses to work he'll cut out the map part and patch it back in later when it's started working again.
So we'll see. If it's not out by Monday I'm probably going to take a mental break from the game for a while.
In keeping with the general lack of urgency, I say if it's not out today they're probably going to get bogged down by fixing the problems again and the moment will pass. There's not much left that cna reasonably hold back release though, so I'm hopeful.
EDIT: It's compiling!
Post by: lordcooper on September 13, 2015, 02:54:38 am
Post by: dennislp3 on September 13, 2015, 03:02:12 am
buy in to show support and get the latest news...otherwise deal with the fact that you just have to wait
Post by: lordcooper on September 13, 2015, 03:41:40 am
Quote
"people wanting free stuff for no reason"
Their homepage has links to a devlog last updated in 2014, and any actual information on the forums is in buyer only subs. It's pretty hard to know whether or not I should support something with so little information. I don't want stuff, I want to know about stuff. And it's not for no reason, it's so I can judge whether or not to send some money their way. This is a ridiculous way of operating; if you're expecting money for an unfinished/unreleased product then it's in your own interest not to put information on that product behind a paywall. Unless your product is bad, I suppose.
Post by: Neonivek on September 13, 2015, 03:45:05 am
Unless your product is bad, I suppose.
Which is kind of the thing... That tends to be the message you send out in this situation.
That either your product is bad or you hit development hell.
Which might not be true, but... if you are going to emulate bad games... don't be surprised if people unconsciously latch onto it.
Post by: Darkmere on September 13, 2015, 03:47:27 am
I'm fine with contests, or behind-the-scenes stuff, early access to tools, early play, all that going to backers... but "this game isn't dead"-level of information really should be public access.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 13, 2015, 04:48:26 am
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps
PD: and in twitter https://twitter.com/kingdinogames
PPD: and in steam Early access: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=316173232
Post by: ventuswings on September 13, 2015, 08:45:46 am
On the deadline thing, besides being a typical kickstarter project, I'm surprised many people did not see delays coming considering how planned dev videos were consistently late with some never being released. Regardless of their merits as game developer, seems like they have unfortunate tendency to miss deadlines due to not having concrete work management.
Hope mod tools get quickly compiled.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 13, 2015, 08:53:16 am
They are deliberately keeping hype down until they have something concrete. The lesson from the kickstarter is that releasing unfinished stuff for hype is actually harmful. They lost pledges when videos were released.
The unity update has caused a lot of problems, acknowledged on unity's side as well. They're going to need to completely roll back the update and release like that, which is taking a while.
Why they didn't just back up the pre-update build I have no idea, and I'm a little disappointed on that front.
So it's not out. I'm holding out hope for a monday release. After that it's whatever, I'll let the hype simmer down and focus on other things.
Post by: Retropunch on September 13, 2015, 10:23:01 am
If it weren't for the people here relaying some of the pay-only information I would have completely forgotten about this game about a week after the kickstarter ended, because for all I'd know it could have been abandoned.
I'm fine with contests, or behind-the-scenes stuff, early access to tools, early play, all that going to backers... but "this game isn't dead"-level of information really should be public access.
I am so confused by the 'backers only updates' system that seems to be so prevalent. I just don't understand it - why would you want people NOT to know about your game?! Fair enough, keep some background posts just for backers, but so many games only use the backers area for their updates that the project just looks dead if you're not a backer.
Post by: Zangi on September 13, 2015, 12:36:56 pm
First impressions make a huge impression. Less exposure after the initial funding stage is a valid tactic, if they ain't really looking for more funding. Cause anything they release can give the wrong first impression to newcomers.If it weren't for the people here relaying some of the pay-only information I would have completely forgotten about this game about a week after the kickstarter ended, because for all I'd know it could have been abandoned.
I'm fine with contests, or behind-the-scenes stuff, early access to tools, early play, all that going to backers... but "this game isn't dead"-level of information really should be public access.
I am so confused by the 'backers only updates' system that seems to be so prevalent. I just don't understand it - why would you want people NOT to know about your game?! Fair enough, keep some background posts just for backers, but so many games only use the backers area for their updates that the project just looks dead if you're not a backer.
They'll want more people to know about their game... after they have something solid for people to see.
Post by: i2amroy on September 13, 2015, 12:46:51 pm
Post by: Retropunch on September 13, 2015, 01:36:01 pm
Admittedly, technical details and what's going on behind the scenes can/should all stay just for backers, but there are many projects that I haven't backed due to financial constraints that just end up with me thinking they had just died off.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 13, 2015, 02:21:29 pm
We backers haven't been privy to any cool stuff you guys haven't been privy to, they've been in crunch getting mod and beta tools ready for the past few weeks, most of the fun stuff has already been done and most of the relevant fun updates were also posted to kickstarter.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 14, 2015, 06:08:40 am
We're currently waiting for the mod tools, which are coming out first because they basically consist of the complete dataset of the game and a basic GUI. Current troubles are technical in nature and will hopefully be fixed soon. Once the mod tools are released all that stands in way of the beta is adding some more events and AI-code (and random mistakes, Unity up- and downgrades etc.)
They've also promised to start gameplay videos as soon as the mod tools are out. But considering their track record in that area we don't know what that promise is worth.
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2015, 10:25:01 am
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2015, 02:01:07 pm
Post by: i2amroy on September 14, 2015, 02:41:44 pm
I can definitely understand not wanting to over-hype anything or give the wrong impression, but due to the nature of kickstarters where many fade/die out/have problems, having some updates so that those that didn't back know it's still alive seems necessary.Why? If you are a backer then you get access to development logs, so you know that your money is being used to do something and the project hasn't died. If you aren't a backer then you didn't invest anything in it, nor do you really have any stake beyond a tertiary one in the way the game develops. (Other than risking hype burnout).
I mean, you haven't spent anything on it, nor are you going to spend anything on it until it's actually ready for release, so why is it important that you know that it's still chugging until it's actually approaching time for said release? Even if you forget about it for a while ideally you should hear about it again through several channels when it actually releases and shows up on steam or something similar. After all that's kind of the point of kickstarter updates; to show that the kickstarter is still chugging along to those who put money in despite the fact that there isn't going to be any visible developments for everyone else for quite some time. :P
I get that it's nice to be involved, but I'm not quite sure where you are getting the sense that developers necessarily need to show to the people that didn't (and can't) give back to them in any way until they are actually done that they are still working on a particular project.
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2015, 03:25:06 pm
I can definitely understand not wanting to over-hype anything or give the wrong impression, but due to the nature of kickstarters where many fade/die out/have problems, having some updates so that those that didn't back know it's still alive seems necessary.Why? If you are a backer then you get access to development logs, so you know that your money is being used to do something and the project hasn't died. If you aren't a backer then you didn't invest anything in it, nor do you really have any stake beyond a tertiary one in the way the game develops. (Other than risking hype burnout).
I mean, you haven't spent anything on it, nor are you going to spend anything on it until it's actually ready for release, so why is it important that you know that it's still chugging until it's actually approaching time for said release? Even if you forget about it for a while ideally you should hear about it again through several channels when it actually releases and shows up on steam or something similar. After all that's kind of the point of kickstarter updates; to show that the kickstarter is still chugging along to those who put money in despite the fact that there isn't going to be any visible developments for everyone else for quite some time. :P
I get that it's nice to be involved, but I'm not quite sure where you are getting the sense that developers necessarily need to show to the people that didn't (and can't) give back to them in any way until they are actually done that they are still working on a particular project.
There sadly is something to be said for keeping hype current outside your pool of supporters. In an ideal world projects could go visibly dark to the rest of the world and 3 years later when they're done they reveal and everyone who originally wanted to buy it does so. Sadly, that is not how the world of vidya games works for everyone. Games have to compete for the purchaser's attention, and those that have kept their attention the longest are the ones most likely to be purchased IMO. I don't think developers need to constantly shovel out production status to everyone, backers or not. But I can see why some non-backers feel like it'd be a smart idea to.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 14, 2015, 04:11:06 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 14, 2015, 04:50:07 pm
Though if non-backers care about the news so much that it is upsetting to them...why not become a backer?.
They don't have money either at all, or for their desired award, being the two most obvious reasons. Or they think the premise is interesting, but the rewards overpriced.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 14, 2015, 05:04:44 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 14, 2015, 05:09:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 14, 2015, 05:20:12 pm
Post by: ventuswings on September 14, 2015, 08:42:20 pm
* Stardew Valley -> approximately monthly dev updates which is similar to KDG's kickstarter updates.
* Routine -> developers apparently intending to be in complete radio silence until the game is released. The project might legitimately be dead, but if they have good promotion right before the game's release, who cares there was no news for years?
* SOMA -> another game I think has been given very sparse information until now, even with the incoming release.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 15, 2015, 01:04:51 am
Post by: nenjin on September 15, 2015, 01:09:25 am
I just hope this doesn't go the route of the Forsaken Fortress. It was a promising post-apocalyptic basebuilding/team exploration & combat game that changed between first and third person several times. This blew all the money the team had and the project was abandoned. It was a successful kickstart that failed to deliver because the team dithered around and didn't stay focused, instead rebuilding the game from scratch several times.
Glad I dodged that bullet, I was tempted to back.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 15, 2015, 08:39:38 am
Armies:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/A_DeepOne.png) - Deep One
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/A_Dwarf.png) - Dwarf
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/A_Horrors.png) - Horrors
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/A_Human_Adventurer.png) - Human Adventurer
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/A_Undead.png) - Undead
Events contains a lot of images, but the art varies a bit, mostly in tone but also a bit in quality.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_Alliance.png) - Alliance
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_Camp.png) - Camp
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_Portents.png) - Portents
These are nice and show what most images look like. But there are also some that I find contrasting with the rest:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_Crawlforth.png) - Crawlforth
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_Interrogation.png) - Interrogation
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/E_TribeCivilizes.png) - Tribe Civilizes
These are a bit more cartoony/campy than I'd like.
Next up Factions, these also include the Mi-Go and Court of Bone:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/F_Brood.png) - Brood
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/F_Djinni.png) - Djinni
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/F_Tsathoggua.png) - Tsathoggua
You might have heard something from the mod tiers about the weird god images, now revel in all their glory:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/G_Balance_5.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/G_Crag_4.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/G_Glory_7.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/G_Mount_8.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/G_Wyld_3.png) - The Holy Ice Cream Cone of Dropping
Heraldry has also not been shown much, but it is about what you'd expect:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/H_MiddleEast_1.png) - Middle Eastern
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/H_Minotaur_1.png) - Minotaur
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/H_Orc_3.png) - Orc
Institutions have also not been seen since the kickstarter:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/I_Mercant_Arms_1.jpg) - Arms Merchants
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/I_Order_Magic_1.png) - Magic Order
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/I_Underworld_9.png) - Underworld guild
And because everybody likes them, some portraits:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/P_generic_f%20sage2_S.png) - Lizardman Sage
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/P_generic_m%20adventurer8_S.png) - Generic Adventurer
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/P_imperial%20gnome_m%20adventurer2_S.png) - Gnome Adventurer
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/P_tibetian_m%20priest_S.png) - Tibetan Priest
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52311040/TWS%20Art%20Assets/P_venetian_m%20noble_S.png) - Venetian Noble
Post by: nenjin on September 15, 2015, 09:38:10 am
On the other hand, the art does sort of give me that "Magic The Gathering" vibe.
Post by: Ghazkull on September 15, 2015, 10:33:32 am
Post by: dennislp3 on September 15, 2015, 12:15:05 pm
Post by: birdy51 on September 15, 2015, 01:49:49 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 15, 2015, 05:02:20 pm
The art style really is all over the place. Part of me like the more painted art style, but another part of me wishes they'd gone with something simpler, and more charming. Or at least more cohesive. Not like the anime art they had before, but something between that and the (totally sweet) Old One images.I was going to say the same thing. The art style is incredibly inconsistent. Many of the smaller icons are really vague. Can you even tell the undead is undead if you look only at the picture? Why does the deep one look like he is holding a pair of sticks? Why is there a smirking smoking disney ogre?
On the other hand, the art does sort of give me that "Magic The Gathering" vibe.
I mean I'll probably enjoy the game regardless, I play games in ascii without really worrying too much about art, but it just strikes me as odd. The last game I saw with such an inconsistent art style was A Valley Without Wind and it really bothered me at the time because the styles clashed.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 15, 2015, 05:16:02 pm
Anyway, as I said on the forums there, it's a bit of a release something we can touch or riot
Post by: Mephansteras on September 15, 2015, 09:44:32 pm
I just hope this doesn't go the route of the Forsaken Fortress. It was a promising post-apocalyptic basebuilding/team exploration & combat game that changed between first and third person several times. This blew all the money the team had and the project was abandoned. It was a successful kickstart that failed to deliver because the team dithered around and didn't stay focused, instead rebuilding the game from scratch several times.
Glad I dodged that bullet, I was tempted to back.
To be fair, it's not actually dead. They released a Demo of it to backers last month.
Post by: Lapoleon on September 16, 2015, 12:06:55 am
I still think the army icons are pretty clear, they will of course be small since they have to fit on the map next to a POI.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on September 16, 2015, 01:30:27 pm
They are behind on (the internet's imaginary) deadlines: but so what?
They are working on it full time and aren't out of money. I'm still quite optimistic about this.
Post by: dennislp3 on September 16, 2015, 01:34:50 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 16, 2015, 01:35:16 pm
Quote
They are behind on (the internet's imaginary) deadlines: but so what?
I'm not disagreeing with you, but, point in fact: they have missed almost all of their own stated deadlines. This is like the 3rd time they've rolled back the mod tools release.
Post by: sirvente on September 16, 2015, 01:47:25 pm
They are behind on (the internet's imaginary) deadlines: but so what?
Must be easy to be optimistic when you just delete inconvenient facts from your worldview. Every milestone they've promised has been delayed if not outright abandoned. If we were publishers and not suckers, sorry I mean backers, then KDG would be in big trouble right now.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 16, 2015, 01:58:25 pm
Also one of those was released broken. That was at the beginning of May. We're currently waiting for the rerelease of that broken thing. Which was supposed to come out Thursday of last week.
That being said none of these have been hard deadlines. You know that whole SoonTM joke people make, people are vague about dates for a reason. Because shit happens. If they only set deadlines when they're absolutely locked in (they had one thursday but fucked it up with the unity update which was a bad move all-around) then none of this would be happening.
Post by: i2amroy on September 16, 2015, 02:30:40 pm
Oh sorry, I hadn't realized that nobody had said this yet, but... welcome to the world of indie games!They are behind on (the internet's imaginary) deadlines: but so what?Must be easy to be optimistic when you just delete inconvenient facts from your worldview. Every milestone they've promised has been delayed if not outright abandoned. If we were publishers and not suckers, sorry I mean backers, then KDG would be in big trouble right now.
It's very common and very easy to underestimate development times when this is your first true project on a scale of this size. There is a reason why official companies have large groups of people responsible for simply managing projects and setting deadlines; because it takes a lot of experience to be able to estimate deadlines well.
And it's not like this still doesn't happen in the real world either with big companies! There are scads of examples of official games (such as Legend of Zelda for Wii U, or Tom Clancy's The Division) that get deadlines pushed back months or even years. The difference is that you are finally getting a chance to actually see what's happening inside of the development process instead of just finding out at the next big gaming conference when the CEO makes a short statement.
This is not something new, this is something that happens almost everywhere, to almost every game, if you would just bother to look around you. :P
Post by: nenjin on September 16, 2015, 03:01:49 pm
Being indie isn't a magic pass to be wrong all the time. That's like saying indies are the equivalent of developmentally challenged children and should be forgiven most things, where "normal" children wouldn't be. Indie has been a thing long enough now I don't think they get that kind of pass in perpetuity. KDG hasn't crossed the competency line for me yet, but it's getting there.
Post by: cainiao on September 16, 2015, 10:28:15 pm
And I would prefer to see a polished product rather than a rushed game.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on September 16, 2015, 11:37:12 pm
It is sad to see the recent Metal Gear get released like a unfinished product just because Konami want to push Kojima to release it early.This so much.
And I would prefer to see a polished product rather than a rushed game.
Since my childhood, when I first heard of games, games development, or deadlines games were always either coming out on time, full of bugs, or delayed until they come out awesome, and still full of bugs.
There are games which run out of steam and die, there are games that are so ambitious they never quite finish. I strongly suspect this one is the latter and that is fine by me. I just hope they release something.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 17, 2015, 12:05:29 am
Post by: Neonivek on September 17, 2015, 12:19:44 am
I still think this is an awesome game concept and I hope it can deliver at least half of what has been promised. It is just that starting the game from scratch and changing engines and blah on the run is not a very good sign of stable project management. With poor management, everything is possible.
That is what officially killed Black and White 2.
Though honestly from what I heard it isn't quite as bad as Lionhead had it.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 17, 2015, 12:59:51 am
Of course, the best option is for it to come out and be fucking awesome.
Post by: Neonivek on September 17, 2015, 01:13:23 am
Honestly, I'd rather see this game die on the working board than be published and be heartbreakingly bad. It is better to be left wondering about what could have been than have someone shit into your heart.
Of course, the best option is for it to come out and be fucking awesome.
Honestly as long as the game has a soul I'll be satisfied. A Game that feels like 'it could have been great' but didn't quite have the forethought, imagination, or luck to pull it off will always satisfy me versus a game that is modestly good but feels lifeless.
There is just something about this game that feels grand... Like there is something deep down that it does that no other game can do. At the same time though the threat that this game will just be a boring TBS is rather sizable as well. It is up to the developers whether or not the game can live up to its potential or if they will be shackled to the ground by the genre itself.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 17, 2015, 01:15:51 am
Post by: Lapoleon on September 17, 2015, 03:18:17 am
I still think this is an awesome game concept and I hope it can deliver at least half of what has been promised. It is just that starting the game from scratch and changing engines and blah on the run is not a very good sign of stable project management. With poor management, everything is possible.
It's not so much project management that was at the core of the problem but the fact that due to the unexpected amount of stretch goals reached large parts of the code had to be rewritten.
The Rivals system necessitated the inclusion of new AI routines for all events and gameplay features.
The Procedural Generation overthrew the entire map system and also added new AI routines and mechanical changes.
Anyway, we should hopefully be getting the editors today and this weekend. Then the following weeks should finally show us ingame footage so we can hopefully judge if all the waiting has been worth it.
Post by: nenjin on September 17, 2015, 05:27:12 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 18, 2015, 09:28:28 am
The best example I can think of is Alien Isolation vs Dead Space. In one, the alien follows you dynamically, using its senses to track you around the station even when you can't see it. in the other, the alien appears at predetermined points.
In practice, there's no discernible difference between these at least in one playthrough. You walk around, the alien appears, you run and hide until it goes away. It's hard to make a game based on emergent gameplay through interacting systems look good. Often it's easier and more interesting to do a scripted game that mimics emergent behavior.
Like this new wave of open world sandbox games. Mad Max would've been so much better as a linear scripted game. It's a sandbox but the systems aren't engaging enough, there aren't enough toys to play with and you lose that sense of high-velocity insanity of the movie.
Anyway, mod tools are out. Or, more accurately, something that resembles what a small part of the mod tools might eventually look like has been released. :I
It's kind of the third strike for me. I'll pay a little attention but I've been left hanging for so long I'm barely even interested in the things I was gonna make anymore.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 18, 2015, 09:41:48 am
Honestly, I'd rather see this game die on the working board than be published and be heartbreakingly bad.
Given that I paid for a preorder back at the kickstarter, I'd feel far dumber if they did not release anything than if they released something shitty
Post by: cainiao on September 18, 2015, 09:44:08 am
But the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, what is done is already woven in the Pattern.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 18, 2015, 10:31:35 am
Well, it always puzzles me of their decision to release the tools first without a beta to playtest the mod.
Yes... TBH I dont understand it. At first I thought I was misunderstanding the matter.
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 18, 2015, 03:02:02 pm
Or are you just talking about the fancy-asset-viewer thingy that was supposed to be the initial mod tool release?
Post by: Cthulhu on September 18, 2015, 07:01:15 pm
There are continued crashes so I guess to tide us over they released a thing, not sure what to call it. All it contains is minion editing with five or six minions and a few skills and traits as samples. Nothing has any descriptive text, it's not clear what anything does.
It's very disappointing that two weeks ago they were saying the mod tools were done, then today we get this. I honestly don't care anymore. I'll pay enough attention to know when (if?) something substantial comes out but I've been burned too many times.
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 19, 2015, 12:50:46 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on September 19, 2015, 02:19:01 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 19, 2015, 09:36:27 am
My main worry is the sheer volume of things you can do won't lead to a cohesive and interesting game experience or, like I mentioned above, it won't be fun. There's lots of examples of system-based sandboxes that just aren't as engaging as linear scripted games.
Post by: Xgamer4 on September 21, 2015, 11:50:51 pm
Finish up mod tools (moved back into no date given territory, at least from what I can see as a $10 backer)
Release gameplay videos.
Release beta (with AI adjustments to come during beta, instead of before)
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 22, 2015, 04:07:33 pm
Release gameplay videos.Yay! I was sad when they stopped the gameplay videos.
I don't much care about the rest personally but at least this shows some progress.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 23, 2015, 09:56:35 am
Post by: nenjin on September 23, 2015, 09:59:35 am
Post by: Cthulhu on September 23, 2015, 01:24:53 pm
Most of the work that's been going on for the past six months or so has been revising the data structures to make room for the new content enabled by the stretch goals to allow them to remain system-driven and organic (rather than grafting ad-hoc solutions onto the code which would inevitably feel awkward and scripted), and then importing all of the data back into the new system.
THey're almost done with that but they've decided to hold off on doing the remaining AI interactions until after the beta's been released. Most of that concerns how the alliance behaves in the very late game, which means the game will probably be really easy as the alliance fails to take certain actions or respond effectively to some threats.
It will probably be rocky. The beta will include a debug old one with abilities like infinite infiltration and the like to better observe AI behavior so it shouldn't be too hard to notice strangeness.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 30, 2015, 03:56:03 pm
https://youtu.be/7j8MoAKqvJM
Post by: Ghazkull on September 30, 2015, 05:10:56 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 30, 2015, 05:30:54 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on September 30, 2015, 05:33:05 pm
uhhh fancy...okay im back on the hypetrain.
I'm hyped but this feels a little rushed. There's missing information that would be needed.
Post by: jhxmt on September 30, 2015, 05:35:33 pm
I'm hyped but this feels a little rushed. There's missing information that would be needed.
All we've seen at this point is the scenario selection screens. Give it time - there may well be easy-to-access in-game information (tooltips etc) that fill in some of the gaps. Although to be honest there was a fair amount of information in those screens already - the video just clicked through some of them very rapidly (and didn't hover over a lot of the buttons which I suspect would have provided more).
Post by: Cthulhu on September 30, 2015, 05:58:57 pm
Other stuff like modifiers are mentioned in brief but glossed over. I'm a little worried that in his eagerness to show something off and release the pressure buiding up on the forums he might be sacrificing quality on the video. A decent script or outline to focus discussion, only two old ones mentioned instead of a bunch (so he can go into detail and compare and contrast their playstyles) and a more detailed overview of exactly what scenario generation is. I don't think he ever actually explains what scenario gen is in the way he did before, in the first video.
Post by: ventuswings on September 30, 2015, 08:29:22 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 01, 2015, 03:16:30 am
Sure, you don't know what Primal means. Take a wild guess... could it be a primal force? Primal Thing? Both work
Sure, you don't know what Ancient means. Take a wild guess... could it be a Ancient force? Ancient Thing? Either works. It's Ancient.
Is there a specific gameplay speration between Primal and Ancient that would have to be explained but is missed by the gods details/feats?
Anyway, I want Josh to sacrifice quality. Slaughter it on a altar and then from the sacrifice summon forth gameplay. Beta. A bloody beta, mate. My eyes won't boil out of there socket if the interface isn't a 10/10 or the raven effect/overlay is less then optimal.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 01, 2015, 03:45:27 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 01, 2015, 03:55:53 pm
Quote
Is there a specific gameplay speration between Primal and Ancient that would have to be explained but is missed by the gods details/feats?
Since it's KDG, the answer is probably yes.
Post by: Ghazkull on October 01, 2015, 05:50:23 pm
Apparently there are Primalbane weapons which can kill a Primal...obviously the same weapons won't work on an ancient.
Post by: Serenseven on October 02, 2015, 08:28:21 am
Is there a specific gameplay speration between Primal and Ancient that would have to be explained but is missed by the gods details/feats?
Ancients are the classical eldritch beings that arrived long ago from some other place, invaded the world, and took it over for a time before they were sealed away. All the Old Ones except Karth and Sisyphus are Ancients. Limos is a little different in that he created the world instead of invading it, but he went mad later on and tried to destroy the world he created.
Primals are lesser (but still very powerful) beings that arose out of the conflicts between the Elder Races (Elves, Dwarves, etc.) of the world. Karth is the Primal of War and is the last surviving Primal; all the others were killed either by the Ancients' invasion or in conflict with each other.
Ascended is a special category for humans who acquired enough power to apotheosize and transcend their mortal limits. Sisyphus is the only Ascended so far; much of his backstory revolves around how much of his humanity he sacrificed to get where he is today.
Post by: Nick K on October 02, 2015, 08:32:40 am
Primals are lesser (but still very powerful) beings that arose out of the conflicts between the Elder Races (Elves, Dwarves, etc.) of the world. Karth is the Primal of War and is the last surviving Primal; all the others were killed either by the Ancients' invasion or in conflict with each other.
Although Karth might no longer be the last one with the rival old ones content. The video shows that taking the eye of Gaulmaug gives a relationship penalty towards Gaulmaug, which I think means that it's a rival, and Josh describes it as a Primal.
Post by: Serenseven on October 02, 2015, 08:52:11 am
Although Karth might no longer be the last one with the rival old ones content. The video shows that taking the eye of Gaulmaug gives a relationship penalty towards Gaulmaug, which I think means that it's a rival, and Josh describes it as a Primal.
Gaulmaug is a Fallen Primal. There are quite a number of these, dead but not yet gone. Earlier on in this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg6141273#msg6141273), KDG posted the details of one (the Fallen Primal of Hope) and asked the community here to pitch ideas for one. There's going to be a supplemental Scenario ("What Gods We've Made") with a bunch of them as well.
Post by: Nick K on October 02, 2015, 11:56:05 am
Although Karth might no longer be the last one with the rival old ones content. The video shows that taking the eye of Gaulmaug gives a relationship penalty towards Gaulmaug, which I think means that it's a rival, and Josh describes it as a Primal.
Gaulmaug is a Fallen Primal. There are quite a number of these, dead but not yet gone. Earlier on in this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg6141273#msg6141273), KDG posted the details of one (the Fallen Primal of Hope) and asked the community here to pitch ideas for one. There's going to be a supplemental Scenario ("What Gods We've Made") with a bunch of them as well.
Ah, interesting, so it's more of a Lesser Evil than a full Rival, it seems. I wonder if Gaulmaug can try to reclaim its eye, and what measures it might take to do so. That could be especially interesting once the Ascended stretch goal gets added.
Post by: Sinistar on October 03, 2015, 12:29:17 am
Update;Oh... okaaaaaaay. I wasn't hyped before. Well, hyped enough I needed just KS video and few quick short snippets about what this game aims to be for me to fund it, but after that I didn't bother much with KS updates. And I was more in a "just chill and wait" camp when it came to delays. But this... This video does make me HYPED. There's just so much stuff. Lore of the lads, kingdoms, starting modifiers you pick that tie into story, hand drawn map. Boy oh boy this makes me excited. And why? The game could in the end turn mediocre. It is an ambitious one, with what it's trying to achieve. And yeah it would be sad if it doesn't achieve that. But if there's one thing that will make me play it regardless is just the amount of love that went into it.
https://youtu.be/7j8MoAKqvJM
Post by: ventuswings on October 03, 2015, 09:48:18 am
Update;Oh... okaaaaaaay. I wasn't hyped before. Well, hyped enough I needed just KS video and few quick short snippets about what this game aims to be for me to fund it, but after that I didn't bother much with KS updates. And I was more in a "just chill and wait" camp when it came to delays. But this... This video does make me HYPED. There's just so much stuff. Lore of the lads, kingdoms, starting modifiers you pick that tie into story, hand drawn map. Boy oh boy this makes me excited. And why? The game could in the end turn mediocre. It is an ambitious one, with what it's trying to achieve. And yeah it would be sad if it doesn't achieve that. But if there's one thing that will make me play it regardless is just the amount of love that went into it.
https://youtu.be/7j8MoAKqvJM
It should be noted that hand-drawn map is only for the campaign introduction. The actual map assets are different to enable terraforming and easier map creation.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 03, 2015, 11:47:59 am
Everything's still handcrafted which is what makes the game interesting, though I feel like the video didn't go into just why handcrafting improves it well enough. Instead of replay value coming from random situations (which ultimately all feel the same because randomization is a bitch to do right) you get replay value from putting different kinds of pressure on the interacting systems.
So maybe the king of cylaria defeats you with his knights in one game, next game you see what happens if you use Azlan's night whispers to change his personality, with that change rippling throughout the game.
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 12, 2015, 06:45:51 pm
Mod tools sometime this week.
First gameplay video this week.
Second gameplay video next week.
Third video the week after.
Beta shortly after third video.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 12, 2015, 08:08:37 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 13, 2015, 07:40:43 am
He said tools would be posted today on the forum. Hard to say if that'll actually pan out though.
Tools were apparently released.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2015, 08:11:34 am
Diving in, will return with news.
Post by: ventuswings on October 13, 2015, 10:37:46 am
Post by: Lapoleon on October 13, 2015, 10:42:37 am
Does anyone have any first impression on the recently released mod tools?
They seem to work perfectly but contain enormous amounts of data, allowing you to create very complex spells, artifacts or whatever. Lots of options for Boolean logic etc. This does make it quite complex to initially figure out how everything works.
All previous problems are gone and do in fact seem to have been errors due to the Unity upgrade. Current problems seem to be minor (i.e. the quotations in the wonder screen don't show completely).
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2015, 11:44:55 am
There's a lot of stuff missing, I'm guessing it's scenario-specific elements. Only generic spells, wonders, artifacts, etc, and a lot of assets from the full asset section unused.
NOt sure why the scenario is missing though.
Post by: Knave on October 13, 2015, 12:13:31 pm
Sounds like the mod tools are nice. Looking forward to the first gameplay video :)
Post by: Nick K on October 13, 2015, 12:53:38 pm
NOt sure why the scenario is missing though.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're still tweaking it. The scenario is where a lot of game-balance changes will come in, and those are probably among the last things that'll be done before release.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 14, 2015, 05:31:08 am
Lapoleon, I saw your character name in one of the quotes. I think for an artifact or a wonder, don't remember exactly.
There's a lot of stuff missing, I'm guessing it's scenario-specific elements. Only generic spells, wonders, artifacts, etc, and a lot of assets from the full asset section unused.
NOt sure why the scenario is missing though.
Cool, I also managed to find Valentin.
The plan has been to release the general tools first and afterwards the Scenario Tools which include the map editor etc. It seems some things like Culture etc are part of the scenario tools rather than the general tools. Josh has said however that he forgot to turn the Agents and Old Ones on, so he might have forgotten a few other categories as well. They should be patched in shortly however.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 14, 2015, 08:33:11 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 14, 2015, 11:15:47 am
Post by: ndkid on October 22, 2015, 10:33:18 am
(Full disclosure: I'm a KS backer who has never made a forum account there.)
Post by: Cthulhu on October 22, 2015, 10:39:13 am
Post by: Toady One on October 22, 2015, 02:05:05 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 22, 2015, 06:14:58 pm
(removed ~25 posts -- if people want to wish death on each other and so on, they can do it elsewhere)
Obligatory
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 06:17:49 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on October 22, 2015, 06:50:49 pm
That is the biggest load of gibberish I ever read.An evil heart from an evil sorcerer. He summoned evil horses which eventually took him away with them. Grip the heart, wish for someone's death, and you too will have evil horses.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 22, 2015, 06:53:42 pm
Yes but why was it 'obligatory'? Why is it even relevant?That is the biggest load of gibberish I ever read.An evil heart from an evil sorcerer. He summoned evil horses which eventually took him away with them. Grip the heart, wish for someone's death, and you too will have evil horses.
Post by: ArKFallen on October 22, 2015, 06:58:44 pm
Yes but why was it 'obligatory'? Why is it even relevant?It is moving the topic of the thread back to the thread's topic after a section of it was deleted. The first poster following the deletion had nothing to move it toward. ChairmanPoo thought it'd be funny to reference the latter half of Toady's deletion post with an artifact from the game.
(removed ~25 posts -- if people want to wish death on each other and so on, they can do it elsewhere)
An evil heart from an evil sorcerer. He summoned evil horses which eventually took him away with them. Grip the heart, wish for someone's death, and you too will have evil horses.
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 07:04:52 pm
Forester has 3333 hearts... only ONE which can summon evil horses yet only the horse summoning one gets a name (and frankly given how strong he is, it sounds like the least impressive heart)
Also he was carried away and ALL 3333 hearts were just... left on the floor after the demons basically had to cause Armageddon to defeat him?
And if each heart represents one of his sins... why is summoning evil horses a sin? I mean... is there a heart of jaywalking?
That item is a whirling vortex of nonsense... and Chairmanpoo actually edited it down so you wouldn't see ALL the nonsense.
Post by: Nick K on October 22, 2015, 07:15:53 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on October 22, 2015, 07:17:07 pm
A little hostile though, Neonivek. Considering all the nonsense you say, glass houses man.
Post by: ArKFallen on October 22, 2015, 07:21:18 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 07:22:10 pm
A little hostile though, Neonivek.
It is a little... self-evident... and it isn't like Chairmanpoo wrote that.
Only people who would be insulted would be the illiterate.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 22, 2015, 07:31:12 pm
That being said, it'd be a pretty cool artifact to add to the game.
(Despite the nonsense that I did in fact trim out in copious ammounts from the descr)
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 07:55:11 pm
It has the most insanely illogical item description ever created mind you.
Though I wonder if I'd make them one use or continual use.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 22, 2015, 07:58:53 pm
Post by: Sartain on October 22, 2015, 09:49:27 pm
Is that really from TWS? I didn't think they had a strict good/neutral/evil division of characters. Also, a quick google for "heart of the fosterer" brings up lots of references to Planescape: Torment, although I suppose it's possible they put it in as a reference to that game.
I'm pretty sure that's an item from Planescape: Torment, actually. Almost positive, in fact.
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 26, 2015, 01:10:55 pm
Post by: nenjin on October 26, 2015, 01:20:09 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 26, 2015, 01:25:38 pm
Or maybe that's just a solid whipping from the Dinos. Who knows.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 26, 2015, 01:47:48 pm
In another quick update, hope raises the forums anew.So what's going on then?
Or maybe that's just a solid whipping from the Dinos. Who knows.
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 26, 2015, 01:59:18 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 26, 2015, 02:08:47 pm
Post by: Knave on October 26, 2015, 02:37:34 pm
Post by: gimli on October 27, 2015, 12:29:51 pm
Did they release the gameplay vid yet?
Nop...and the forum is down [still/again?]. ::)
Post by: Cthulhu on October 27, 2015, 12:48:06 pm
Apparently Josh and Fenicks are now living separately so he can't directly go and ask what's going on. Apparently the last update claimed it'd be out at Sunday night but Josh has gone dark since then and Fenicks has no info on what's going on.
I have a lurking feeling that something bad's happened.
EDIT: Something bad has happened. Fenicks hasn't said what exactly happened, but it sounds like there's some kind of major issue in the underlying code that's affecting the continuity of gameplay and may take several days to fix. Considering they were saying only minor problems earlier, I'm assuming it's an emergent problem or something major but localized that slipped by until he did something specific.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 27, 2015, 05:07:16 pm
- Stopped ingame cultists summoning actual old ones to your living room (Sorry guys)
Apparently some of the eldritch language we used was genuine and summoned an actual old one. We're sorry! We've altered the sigils so that this should no longer be the case.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 27, 2015, 05:10:03 pm
TWS Beta patch notes 0.4.71It's not a bug, it's a feature. :P
- Stopped ingame cultists summoning actual old ones to your living room (Sorry guys)
Apparently some of the eldritch language we used was genuine and summoned an actual old one. We're sorry! We've altered the sigils so that this should no longer be the case.
Post by: Serenseven on October 28, 2015, 04:42:38 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb2uub1wn0s
Post by: Farce on October 28, 2015, 04:43:12 am
So uh, final version for non-beta backers such as myself on the horizon, or should I expect a few more months?
Post by: Lapoleon on October 28, 2015, 05:03:32 am
Someday I'll actually get around to registering on the official forum to look at updates of things.
So uh, final version for non-beta backers such as myself on the horizon, or should I expect a few more months?
The beta isn't out yet, but is expected to arrive shortly. The first early-access will be released once the first scenario (The North Burns) has been completely tested, and all agents and starting Old Ones have been cleared to be ok. So it will be a while before you get to play.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2015, 06:18:48 am
And while I thought of an interesting way (the extra players play sort of lesser gods who are a much more limited pallet of actions. Think playing Dagan and Hydra when the 'main player' is Cthulhu)
The issue is I don't think it is possible to introduce without demolishing the already difficult balance the game has.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 28, 2015, 06:51:36 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 28, 2015, 07:38:41 am
First gameplay video is up:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb2uub1wn0s
Huh, looking pretty good. I wasn't expecting anything after all the worrying signs and delays, but this is promising (and relieving to see something at last).
Post by: Xantalos on October 28, 2015, 09:53:04 am
Post by: TempAcc on October 28, 2015, 09:55:43 am
Post by: gimli on October 28, 2015, 10:59:56 am
Someday I'll actually get around to registering on the official forum to look at updates of things.
So uh, final version for non-beta backers such as myself on the horizon, or should I expect a few more months?
The beta isn't out yet, but is expected to arrive shortly.
*facepalm"
Anyway, the first gameplay vid looks good indeed, but hopefully they will add much more map tiles @ beta, since the map looks bland...and I am pretty sure that the game will be in beta for an ungodly long time [6-12 months at least], since the game is complex [= high % of bugs / balancing & tweaking etc.] and the dev speed is slow.
Post by: nenjin on October 28, 2015, 05:02:17 pm
Two things that came to me when watching the video:
1. Josh is really bad at staying focused in those videos. There's so much to talk about, that he jumps around a ton. The actual turn to turn activity? Makes up like 5% of the video, in that he clicks through a couple turns without really breaking down what's just happened.
2. Their tool tips need tooltips. Seriously, the amount of explaining he has to do to make up for the tooltips seems like a rabbit hole. Ok, so this event is affected by blah, blah and these modifiers on the event? What does that modifier do, then?
Post by: Cthulhu on October 28, 2015, 05:13:08 pm
I'll probably make a let's play of this when it comes out, and try to flex my tech writing skills a bit to make the gameplay clearer.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2015, 05:13:51 pm
Dominions 4 actually did exactly this with the disciple mode. It is teamwork where one player rules as the god and the other ones in the team play monsters and prophets ruling their own sub-nations working for the big guy.
Indeed and it worked there because it was a versus game and essentially "balanced".
In this game where you are more against the world... the balance is a bit more tricky
I guess if they made "co-op" maps it would be a bit different. Or if having extra helpers gave penalties (for example making it take longer to awaken or less powerful or less minions).
Though the other difficulty is that the co-op buddies can't really be random. They would need to come from a pool specific to each old one.
---
Frankly the videos just become painful teasers for me
The first one was alright, though it skipped a LOT of stuff I wanted to see but that is fine as it is keeping back some information for the player to learn when they have the game.
But the second one... DEAR HOLY GOODNESS! Few turns is right. We never get to see any cause and effect. It is literally all set up with no pay off and it drove me utterly insane. I was like "Oooh what will infiltrating the guild do?" but nope :P
Post by: Jopax on October 28, 2015, 05:57:08 pm
Wondering what a certain action might do beyond what's written? Click trough!
It's a slow paced game and I don't think many people would mind a bit of extra reading if it was done well.
Other than that, excitement levels slowly rising, hopefully they don't reach critical mass before release.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2015, 06:06:13 pm
Post by: Serenseven on October 28, 2015, 06:31:41 pm
The best way they can probably deal with the amount of info the player needs to have is probably to have links to an in-game glossary of sorts on every bit of possibly confusing UI info.There is a Civopedia-style in-game glossary planned, and also tooltips galore if a player just needs a quick refresher on what some number represents without needing all the gory details.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 28, 2015, 07:03:33 pm
Delicious video! Thanks KDG!
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2015, 07:05:27 pm
Hehe, most of the development will probably just be putting in things to explain what's going on. :P
Delicious video! Thanks KDG!
Damn you KDG Damn you soo much you tease.
Post by: gimli on October 29, 2015, 11:41:14 am
The best way they can probably deal with the amount of info the player needs to have is probably to have links to an in-game glossary of sorts on every bit of possibly confusing UI info.There is a Civopedia-style in-game glossary planned, and also tooltips galore if a player just needs a quick refresher on what some number represents without needing all the gory details.
Well, it's a must have feature in a complex game like this.
Anyway, I just noticed that the forum main page is still not updated, lol..."That Which Sleeps Coming Summer 2015" ::) Change that 5 to 6 already!
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on October 30, 2015, 09:35:45 pm
The video looks fun, but it really leaves you hanging: I wanted to see some results to the actions they were taking and feel a little concerned at the long turn counters: like it took the Rake 12 (!) turns just to infiltrate the merchants guild and get more options for missions or something? That is like CIV on marathon mode.
The pace of the game seems like it is really slow right now, though it is possible the speeds increase when your heroes or power level improves (much like in CIV etc)
Some of the way the information was handled seemed directly counter-intuitive: the glaring example being the "aggravate orc horde" option. I would assume it translated to "pick fight with local orcs: transition to combat screen", but apparently it means "easy way make the orc horde angry so they go to war with your enemies".
Hopefully that kind of thing is dealt with via the tooltip
Post by: Cthulhu on October 30, 2015, 09:44:25 pm
Like befriending the locals only takes four turns but that'll at best get you some protection in certain areas and a recruitment area for cheap labor and shit. Getting a voice in the court of a major kingdom is the kind of thing that an entire game's strategy can revolve around.
I mean you could alter the timeframe of the game in general, but then there's not enough of a distinction between high-power acts and small ones. Like you could set it so it only takes four or five turns but then the smaller actions run out of space to distinguish themselves. If infiltrating the court is four turns and annoying the orcs is one or two turns, then something like befriending hte locals ceases to be a meaningful action.
Post by: Lapoleon on October 31, 2015, 10:41:20 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 31, 2015, 10:44:57 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 31, 2015, 03:20:01 pm
Not to mention, this isn't like the Rake is going up and applying for a seat at court. Most agents do their stuff through intermediaries, just like the old one acts through the agents. So in order to infiltrate court the Rake has to hire his own agents, bribe and blackmail people, forge documents to get his agents into various positions of power, and do all kinds of shit to both get influence in court and to avoid undue attention to himself.
Like in this screenshot (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37495060034227696/FE13E5E37552365FA87BF27768D5CD74C793FDDE/), the lost isn't actually sitting there at court looking spooky. He's got people whispering in various ears, leverage on voting members of court, etc.
Takes a long time.
My main worry is that since you have an absolute maximum of four agents before you've started really doing things to get more, and the fact that agents are your only real means of interacting with the world, means there'll be a lot of time spent clicking the next turn button and doing nothing else.
Post by: Neonivek on October 31, 2015, 03:24:42 pm
Quote
My main worry is that since you have an absolute maximum of four agents before you've started really doing things to get more, and the fact that agents are your only real means of interacting with the world, means there'll be a lot of time spent clicking the next turn button and doing nothing else.
Well it is more of a give and take.
Old ones who have low maximums tend to have a lot more of a hands on approach to the world with powers that affect the world at large.
While ones who have many tend to have a very limited ability to manipulate the world and usually their powers amount to aiding their minions.
Post by: Nick K on October 31, 2015, 03:30:51 pm
My main worry is that since you have an absolute maximum of four agents before you've started really doing things to get more, and the fact that agents are your only real means of interacting with the world, means there'll be a lot of time spent clicking the next turn button and doing nothing else.
Personally, I'm fine with that as long as the game doesn't slow things down with pointless "end-of-turn" animations or whatever. From the video, it looks like you can click through a half-dozen turns very fast, so that isn't going to make the game dull to play.
Besides, the actions Josh chose were some of the longest ones available to those agents, and they're starting agents with no minions or enhancements to improve their skills. I wouldn't be surprised if the average time per action is closer to 8 turns than 15, so you'll get actions finishing every few turns.
Post by: ArKFallen on October 31, 2015, 06:33:34 pm
Personally, I'm fine with that as long as the game doesn't slow things down with pointless "end-of-turn" animations or whatever. From the video, it looks like you can click through a half-dozen turns very fast, so that isn't going to make the game dull to play.Agreed. Also the game pacing of "set up actions, fast forward some turns, more actions" is really good for games with a big scope like this seems to be. Makes the action packed parts stick in your mind but gives you a chance to wind down as you reconsider the situation and if your choices are still worth sticking to. It only really shines with fast loading times though, slowing down the fast forwarding slows down the pace after all.
Post by: Zangi on November 01, 2015, 03:32:48 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 01, 2015, 04:28:40 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 01, 2015, 05:25:48 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 01, 2015, 06:24:02 pm
I love the way the map pulses when the old one stirs too, that's a neat touch.
Post by: lordcooper on November 03, 2015, 11:24:29 am
Update confirmed for tonight, no idea what it might contain though. Everybody's praying for beta but we'll see.
Delayed?
Post by: Cthulhu on November 03, 2015, 01:26:09 pm
Quote from: Josh
[size=150]Timeline and Beta[/size]
We lost about a week dealing with some last-minute aesthetic issues for the video but otherwise the critical fixes are a little under a half implemented and retested. We won't be setting a date until the client is firmly set in stone but with the fixes going as well as they have I don't think we are looking at much longer to wait.
[size=150]Videos[/size]
The first video has been released with the mid and late gameplay videos to follow, we're also going to do a mechanics overview video as we've gotten a lot of questions about the systems and interactions. This video must necessarily take place around mid game so that all of the menus are unlocked (planes, ley lines, underground, etc) so it will probably be released right after the mid game video.
[size=150]The North Burns[/size]
The North Burns has undergone some significant changes over the last year, and you may have seen some of that in the video. I was hesitant to discuss the scenario at length during the video as I have done that prior but I wanted to discuss some of the changes here.
The Barrens suffered a severe reduction in overall POIs and had a lot of their adventure and ruin focused POIs moved elsewhere. We did this to not only make late game marches more immediately threatening but also to prevent a common strategy where players would have 3-4 agents all in the barrens searching for artifacts and ancient ruins. While a few were moved to distant areas most of the unique elements were moved to the large island in the north of the map, which now also holds the Sentinel. In addition to this requiring more investment on the player's part to get to and make use of these POIs it also lures heroes into dangerous expeditions that aren't necessarily at your doorstep.
The Golden Republic of Toln has had its entire off-map kingdom brought onto the map, a militant/pirate neighbor added to the south, and pathways up to more badlands and tundra to the north. We did this to create much more potential for both chaos and order in that area, and we also moved the Mercenary modifier from Tolnspire to a new city off the coast. With the new surrounding territories Tolnspire as well as the massive presence of slaves the city already has enough powderkegs without treacherous mercenary insurrection. We moved The Court of Bone from the west up north, centering The Cult of Mirth's city-based itinerary around the sea and making its appearances in critical moments more frequent. This also serves to make the Court's military threat more unique instead of pinning it in an area already brimming with potential allies.
Minotaurs were added in the western wilds, just one of the four tribes but we also added the ability for a second tribe to migrate in from one of the off-map connections. The Elves were moved slightly to support more aggressive movements by the barbarian tribes and also to make threatening them with corrupted barbarians or the Iron Mountain easier.
Dwarf Holds have been added to Arden and also to the volcano near Hereldus bringing the total of Abandoned Holds up to four. While the North Burns still starts with no established dwarf kingdoms (just some Clay Dwarf modifiers) you can expect this doubling of Holds to almost guarantee at least dwarf attempt to reclaim one of the holds.
Omm now straddles the mountains that once served as its southern border, we did this to create alternate paths for Omm to move against either the Shadowmere rising to the east or the possible undead hordes that can come from the Offmap plains to the west.
The Serpentlands of the Brood were brought closer to the coast, cutting down on the extra POIs needed to get there. This was done mostly because the Brood rarely managed any meaningful contribution to the campaign and by at least allowing them a short transit to the coast they will be a stronger lure both for adventurers and for agents.
[size=150]The Reactive Map[/size]
We've received a lot of questions about the map, and the video itself, so I'd like to take a chance to answer some of them now.
Q. Why this type of map?
A. At the point of the KS the game was already far too rich with details inside the POIs requiring a lot of digging in to understand exactly the state of the world, with all the new additions we knew we needed to get the world feeding its critical information back to the player without requiring multiple clicks. While our initial attempt was simply an extension of the existing system with even more icons and 3D overlays we decided that another course was necessary - with this mode we make use of every piece of the map from the icon of the poi to its immediate surrounding to the hexes adjacent to the pathways that connect them.
Q. What exactly is the difference between the Classic and Reactive Map?
A. The classic map is similar to what you've already seen with the cartography style icons, sprite-based roads, and series of icons adjacent to indicate statuses and changes. You lose any non-world based effects and the dynamic pathways, but you can keep highlights enabled.
Q. I like some of the effects but not others, how customizable is it?
A. Reactive mode is very customizable, but you do need to keep the POI Icons which form a critical depenceny for most effects. However you can swap out cartographic pathways, icons instead of effects, and the basic display for agents and heroes.
Q. What was that raven doing on the POI info screen, was that Belial's special ability?
A. Yes I should have mentioned that in the video - we're moving, as much as possible, abilities into their appropriate context and out of static menus. Belial's ability to summon ravens for infiltration, as a POI-based ability, will appear as an option on POIs.
Q. No minimap? No borders? No customizing the pathways? No zoom?
A. We do have a minimap but it is very, very simple right now - it won't be fully fleshed out until much later. In general I find it isn't necessary but if we do the work necessary to get it displaying critical information it will doubtless be an important tool for the game. Borders can be enabled/disabled, you can zoom out to see the entire map, and their are many different modes for the pathways (trade, resources, military, ley lines, heroes) which are currently tied to hotkeys.
Q. Are ports part of cities?
A. Yes they are, ports are shown on the map because their existence is extremely important to gameplay.
Q. How do you see where sea zones end?
A. Clicking on a navy or port will show the sea zones.
Q. Why is the map drab?
A. We went with very simple textures for the map because it allows us to use a very wide variety of particles and overlays on the map without worrying about their visibility, as well as allowing the state of the world (presented via highlights, effects, and POIs) to take precedence over the colors of the map. We will be replacing them in the future with both a high resolution variant for those with better machines and a simpler version as well, but still maintaining this general approach.
Q. Are their map overlays?
A. Similar to the pathways answer above their are several overlays that can be activated to give better feedback in-game.
Q. How are new agents recruited?
A. New slots for agents open up as you gain new ancient power orbs - new agents become available if you satisfy their requirements, at which point they give a passive bonus until actively recruited. Clicking on the ? in the recruitment screen will open up the list of all possible agents and their requirements.
Q. Do the color effects repeat if you aren't over them?
A. Effects are "kept" by the POI for your notice for X turns (depending on the importance) and are then shown when they become visible, with higher importance events overwriting lesser important ones as they trigger. Critical events will generate a "flag" on the border of the map in the direction of the POI triggering it, if you have infiltration.
Q. It seems like actions take too long or their might be too much downtime?
A. Time is meant to be against you, but this is also an important core of the game design itself. We need your actions to take time for the AI to behave reasonably well and much of the game itself depends on it. However, as you do expose more intricate rituals and challenges you are also either gaining more powerful Agents or bolstering your existing ones with minions and artifacts. As for downtime it rarely is the case, as even in the earliest turns you will have 3-5 agents performing actions and if you focus on acquiring a horde or other tribe swiftly you will be managing their forces as well. However the game does definitely lend itself to long term planning and then seeing your strategy unfold over time, and the tension of determining the opportunity cost of any given action is a core part to "understanding" the role of the ancient evil. Also note that our turn estimates are wildly out of date, I think my last Belial test game took about 500 turns.
Q. Are the POIs dynamic?
A. Yes, while we use the Point to Point system for the game (for many many many many reasons, but the number 1 reason being it makes the AI much better) the underlying hexes are used as basis for creating and modifying POIs and their pathways - you can wipe out a POI, create new ones, find new paths, etc.
Q. Are the POI pictures final or will they be replaced with actual map-based sprites like in the classic mode?
A. The POI pictures are essential to reactive mode, you will need to use the classic mode to see sprites.
Q. They seem a little boring on the map, how will we see walls crumbling, the city spreading, or other such details?
A. The priority for us is always on getting information into the players hands "at a glance" - while we do intend to have 2d top-down 'sprawls' beneath the pois to represent their size/type these still won't be the primary area for feedback - it will remain the POI itself and the values that surround it. For instance during a siege the POI will form a stony exterior, and it will grow cracked with dust emanating from it as the siege worsens - not only does it allow that one POI orb to present the most salient data to the player it also allows US to have a variety of effects that are universally applicable. If we wanted a siege of a more typical sprite based city we would need assets for each type being represented, greatly restricting the variety of poi types we could display.
Q. What can you really do with an airship anyway?
A. The skies the limit... ha ha ha
Q. What is final on the map?
A. Pretty much anything could be replaced, but I'd say the mountains, the POIs, the pathways, the effects, the armies (I am a big fan of showing the portrait over the army comp), the navies, the heroes (probably change the frame a bit), the agents are all final. Forests/jungles/swamps/terrain are definitely going to be replaced, and we want a professional cartographer to do the coasts for us which is why we still haven't increased the variety.
Q. Do turns always pass that quickly?
A. We did a LOT of work to make sure turns pass quickly, but if you are spamming end turn late game (especially post Alliance) then it will start to slow down, especially on huge maps. We do a lot of the AI work during your turn so if you're passing too fast it has to catch up.
Q. Why was that ambient music so annoying?
A. Hey, I like it! We've moved towards ambient music that reflects your state of power and the world because it is another way of giving feedback to the player, but I would say it is one of the least successful of our "feedback" attempts. We've also made unique "soundscapes" for each of the Old Ones that has a series of unique ambient sounds as well as special flairs and simple effects.
Q. Why is the challenge screen the most important but also least useable of the screens?
A. (this is actually a question I ask myself every day) - we've gone through SEVERAL iterations with the Challenge Screen and its approach and while we've settled on the FINAL form it will take it's going to be a beast to implement, so we're leaving it until the Beta.
Q. Are their summaries of events?
A. Yes, but not of regular highlights UNLESS you have a marked a POI as "Follow" (you can also follow Heroes and Notables). You'll doubtless see a lot of these summary screens in the next video, but for example the Horde message that popped up, if their had been more than one Political event that turn it would be a much smaller list of political events which could be clicked into to see details.
Q. No idle agent notification?
A. We actually have a whole list of "check before end of turn" but I've had it turned off for a long time now as it gets in the way of testing. Pretty standard and I'll remember to turn it on for the next video.
[size=150]Stretch Goals in Beta[/size]
Our up to date list of Stretch Goals that you will be seeing in Beta and their relative state of completion:
Gods and Religions
- Gods and Planes are in and working, but lacking late-game powers and campaigns
- Religions are working but are generally passive at this time, we plan a whole range of upgrades to their content to make them more proactive
- Priest classes are in and work "fine" but a Priest Chosen One tends towards fanaticism (right now Divine Traits bolster religion as a priority and the Chosen One divine path grants excessive divine traits) and is generally terrible leading to the only "easy" game you may have.
- The Inquisition is happy to burn the world
Endless Mode
- The Resistance is in the game but is much less powerful than The Alliance, they currently are most useful at funneling artifacts and relics to sages
- Endless Mode itself won't be available in the beta release but most of the features we added to make it work are in the game
Rivals (all optional)
- Lesser Evils have three archetypes that will be in the Beta, they currently appear alongside heroes but with a different frame for recognition. They can be recruited and are capable of betraying you, which at this point they are more prone to do than they probably should.
- Hastur is in and is the current most competent of the Rivals as his main goal is to simply prevent any Old One from rising - he will help adventurers against you and send his agents against your own
- Dagon is in and is semi-competent, especially mid-game spreading corruption through Deep One breeding programs, but he currently has terrible late-game AI
- the Elven Emperor and Enoch are both thoroughly incompetent right now and need a lot of work, but their more defining content is in the game so their theme and mechanics are well established
- "Those That Remained" are not in The North Burns but they have been integrated into other scenarios
Visual Upgrades
- Currently we have Navies, Merchants, Refugees, Airships, Horseman for models in the game
- Most of the higher tier rituals have unique effects that have been completed, but not all of them
Post by: nenjin on November 03, 2015, 01:26:58 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 03, 2015, 04:11:31 pm
Post by: Neonivek on November 03, 2015, 04:38:56 pm
Hastur makes sense he has his own goals, wishes, and desires that conflict with the other old ones.
Yet Dagan (Father Dagan) one of the two heralds of Cthulhu (The other being Mother Hydra), specifically works for Cthulhu who is already in the game under a different name... Unless I guess the Cthulhu expy is meant to be "like cthulhu" and the actual one is still out there.
It isn't even like Nyanthotep where he has his own goals and desires that conflict with the other old ones, but he is basically gaesed into serving them.
Though does Dagan like the Cthulhu-look-alike?
Post by: Nick K on November 03, 2015, 04:53:16 pm
It is so weird to have Dagan be one of the Rivals...
Hastur makes sense he has his own goals, wishes, and desires that conflict with the other old ones.
Yet Dagan (Father Dagan) one of the two heralds of Cthulhu (The other being Mother Hydra), specifically works for Cthulhu who is already in the game under a different name... Unless I guess the Cthulhu expy is meant to be "like cthulhu" and the actual one is still out there.
It isn't even like Nyanthotep where he has his own goals and desires that conflict with the other old ones, but he is basically gaesed into serving them.
Though does Dagan like the Cthulhu-look-alike?
Cthulhu isn't really in the game as such. Azlan was inspired by it, but has a ton of differences from HPL's Cthulhu.
I also don't remember Dagon being specified as a servant of Cthulhu in Lovecraft's work, although it's been a while since I've read them so I might have just forgotten.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 03, 2015, 04:57:42 pm
Azlan is thematically related to Cthulhu but that's it, it's silly to say that since Dagon is a servant of Cthulhu in lovecraft (if that's even true) that Dagon has to be a servant of Aslan.
Post by: Neonivek on November 03, 2015, 05:41:41 pm
Azlan is thematically related to Cthulhu but that's it
Ok that explains it. I always thought Azlan was a "Well, we aren't going to call him Cthulhu... but yeah he is totally Cthulhu"
--
Though I will say that Dagan being the herald of another sleeping old one does work within the rival framework and would make him completely unique compared to the other Rivals.
Since his ultimate goal is to awaken someone else.
Post by: nenjin on November 03, 2015, 06:57:45 pm
To be fair though, obligatory Lovecraft inspirations aside, I think KDG has come up with some really flavorful ideas for their Old Ones. Maybe not the most original but the execution and detailing is quality.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 03, 2015, 07:50:44 pm
...TBH chapter three of the "Call of Cthulhu" short story is a bit anticlimatic, IMO, because it brings Cthulhu down from being a gibbering horror that even asleep and dreaming drives people mad and will bring forth doom if it ever awakens, to a mere squid-dragon-thing that can be rammed with a boat somewhat successfully.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 03, 2015, 08:55:35 pm
Think about how lucky they got to stop it, and what was at stake. if they hadn't been right there at that time and had the thought to ram him (and of course that it worked) then that would be the end of mankind as we know it.
And for all that they just bought us time. He'll come back again and it'll be on somebody else's shoulders to try to stop him.
That's what I love about the idea of endless mode in this game. It really reinforces just how futile the struggle against you is. Like, let's say you win as Belial and take over the world. The chosen one is defeated and disappears, the world is in ruins, you slowly rebuild it in your name and mankind is enslaved to your project to absorb Limos. Rebels in the fringes continue to harry you, stealing artifacts and destroying temples and funneling weapons and knowledge to the chosen one and finally they take the fight to you and in a climactic battle the chosen one who's now in his fifties sacrifices himself to put you back in your tomb and the world is saved.
And his kids grow up celebrating.
And their kids grow up remembering the stories.
Their kids grow up fearing that The Night Shepherd will come and get them if they're bad.
And on and on until the story's passed into myth and the names of the chosen one's great great grandchildren have been forgotten and a road now passes over where their tombs once stood in a city where sages delve into the sewers to explore the ruins of a city the ancients called "Aventura," though little is known about their culture.
And then Belial wakes up to do it all again.
Post by: Neonivek on November 03, 2015, 09:19:13 pm
He is a Great Old One, though not one of the Outer Gods and though he is one of the more popular lovecraftian gods he isn't the most powerful nor the most active.
Azlan takes direct inspiration from him. Hence why I didn't know if he was an expy or just renamed.
TBH chapter three of the "Call of Cthulhu" short story is a bit anticlimatic, IMO, because it brings Cthulhu down from being a gibbering horror that even asleep and dreaming drives people mad and will bring forth doom if it ever awakens, to a mere squid-dragon-thing that can be rammed with a boat somewhat successfully.
The way I always justified it is that Cthulhu had not truly awakened, he was essentially sleep walking and it took a huge ship ramming it at full speed to even stop it... and it still drove the captain uselessly insane at the end.
In other words even Cthulhu's corpse kicks butt.
Fully awakened the ship wouldn't have really done much.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 03, 2015, 10:37:50 pm
Other authors have a really bad habit of explaining too much. It's scary because you don't know, your imagination is way scarier than what the author will come up with.
Post by: Darkmere on November 03, 2015, 10:49:07 pm
Also there's a bunch of hangers-on to HPL's stuff, mainly August Derleth, who tried to add a bunch of shit of their own with varying degrees of success. It's taken a while to sort out what was actually in the mythos and what was added later on by other jackholes wanting to cash in, or just high-profile fanfics.
Post by: Neonivek on November 03, 2015, 10:50:51 pm
That's all your headcanon though, it doesn't mean anything
It is the implication though.
There are not many things outright stated in the books... and most interpretations side with me on this one.
Mi-go = Fungi from Yuggoth. I have no memory of them doing anything to Cthulhu, however. Cite source?
Goodness I have only heard this once and for the life of me I have never found a source except that a VERY unpopular writer no one likes might have included it in his books (basically the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs killed him... which was a magically enchanted asteroid made of platinum)
Post by: Cthulhu on November 03, 2015, 10:55:38 pm
a VERY unpopular writer no one likes
See, exactly what I was saying. It's stupid. It says too much. It fills in the blanks our imaginations were doing just fine at filling, and it fills them with stupid.
Post by: Neonivek on November 03, 2015, 10:58:23 pm
a VERY unpopular writer no one likes
See, exactly what I was saying. It's stupid. It says too much. It fills in the blanks our imaginations were doing just fine at filling, and it fills them with stupid.
I liked the idea of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs to be involved... And even the Mi-go doing it is a nice detail. (Albeit COMPLETELY confusing given their allegiances)
It being a magically enchanted asteroid is overkill... and it being made of platinum is just ridiculous because it is an easily verifiable fact... and Lovecraft should always "Could be real".
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 03, 2015, 11:32:49 pm
This is why the fish-frogs (whose eldest leaders are Dagon and Hydra) don't just pop the doors of R'lyeh open and bang pots together until Cthulhu wakes up: the stars have to be right, and when they are no mortal action is going to make a difference.
I wouldn't be surprised about the dinosaur thing either: dinosaurs killed by space comet meant to kill cthulhu, accidentally liberating humanity to take over the globe? Sounds about right.
Lovecraft is obsessed with geologic time and paleontology and evolution and race (especially race) in their most lurid 19th century misapprehensions. Somehow, he retained every major bit of 19th century dread around evolutionary theory, the age of the universe, the death of god, the existence of dinosaurs and the insignificance of humanity and carried it through into the 1930s, long after half of the theories he seems to rely on were disproven.
Take any 19th century scientific mistake, be it phrenology or crazy theories about dinosaurs and Lovecraft is way ahead of you. E.g. tell me the fish frog people with their racist geneology (the Marsh's are Anglo-saxons who married East Asians who married fish frogs: the Cthulhu cultists and their war on pure-blooded white people :P) have nothing to do with racist evolutionary 18th-19th century science that gave us charts like this
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hell, most of Lovecraft's cosmic terror is around evolution vs. geologic time: related here because Darwin was a geologist and the whole scale of time that evolution suggested was mind-blowing.
Thus all the Lovecraft and Co stories about time: Shadow out of Time, Ashton Smith's Ubbo-Sathla, and strange passages like the long section of in the Mountains of Madness when the geologist narrator uses the age of rocks used for sculptures to discuss the cultures of the old ones in insane scales of inhuman time: "in the Jurrasic era they had picnics, but then in the Creataceous era it was all about playing tag with shoggoth etc"
Post by: Majestic7 on November 04, 2015, 01:22:59 am
Regarding Cthulhu, isn't it told that the Elder Race fought Cthulhu and his spawn with Science! and shoggoth as their weapons after Big C crashed the Elder Race picnic on Earth? I've always assumed it was some sort of MAD that wiped both out, releasing the shoggoth and killing the Elder Race while aligning reality so that Cthulhu had to take a nap.
Post by: Darkmere on November 04, 2015, 01:49:48 am
Post by: TempAcc on November 04, 2015, 11:20:46 am
Cthulhu got to earth later and fucked up the elder things experiments, yes, but I don't think its ever expressively mentioned why he's currently asleep.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 04, 2015, 11:27:56 am
Quote
I don't think its ever expressively mentioned why he's currently asleep.
Well... it is, after a fashion, in Call of Cthulhu. Part II is Lovecraft at his best, IMO.
Quote
These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shapefor did not this star-fashioned image prove it?but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.
Post by: Bohandas on November 04, 2015, 08:56:24 pm
QuoteI don't think its ever expressively mentioned why he's currently asleep.
Well... it is, after a fashion, in Call of Cthulhu. Part II is Lovecraft at his best, IMO.QuoteThese Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shapefor did not this star-fashioned image prove it?but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.
There's also the deuterocanonical explanation in many non-Lovecraft Cthulhu mythos novels (such as Lurker at the Threshold that he was imprisoned and/or cursed by a rival group of cosmic beings
Post by: Neonivek on November 04, 2015, 09:02:20 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 04, 2015, 11:13:27 pm
Besides "Stars are not right" and "Stars are right" basically means "Things haven't come into place" and "Things have come into place" rather then literally meaning that Cthulhu lives and dies according to the movement of the stars themselves.
I'd argue the quote posted by Bohandas:
These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shapefor did not this star-fashioned image prove it?but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.
Strongly suggests that it is not the idiomatic "things coming into place", but a very literal case of Cthulhu basically being dead without being properly dead when the stars are normal and a transplanar awakened god-being "plung[ing] from world to world through the sky" when they are "Right", neither of which is entirely the case in CoC.
I definitely see "the stars are right" as a very specific apocalyptic event in the Lovecraft universe, a literal astral alignment that awakens Cthulhu and his fellow star-spawn, rather than an idiom for "when the time is right".
Post by: ndkid on November 05, 2015, 07:23:08 am
Besides "Stars are not right" and "Stars are right" basically means "Things haven't come into place" and "Things have come into place" rather then literally meaning that Cthulhu lives and dies according to the movement of the stars themselves.
I'd argue the quote posted by Bohandas:These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shapefor did not this star-fashioned image prove it?but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.
Strongly suggests that it is not the idiomatic "things coming into place", but a very literal case of Cthulhu basically being dead without being properly dead when the stars are normal and a transplanar awakened god-being "plung[ing] from world to world through the sky" when they are "Right", neither of which is entirely the case in CoC.
I definitely see "the stars are right" as a very specific apocalyptic event in the Lovecraft universe, a literal astral alignment that awakens Cthulhu and his fellow star-spawn, rather than an idiom for "when the time is right".
I think the distinction between these two positions practically comes down to: can humans do anything to affect Cthulhu returning? And I'd argue that given Lovecraft's treatment of the Old Ones, while never stated directly, the answer to that question is likely intended to be "no".
And, boy, we're staying off-topic...
Post by: Majestic7 on November 05, 2015, 07:34:20 am
Post by: TempAcc on November 05, 2015, 08:46:22 am
Post by: Lapoleon on November 09, 2015, 07:42:07 am
Quote from: Josh
I took a few days "off" last week, but it being hard to detach myself from That Which Sleeps especially at this point I spent much of that time doing a rework of the planes interface, adding a much more extensive interface to the Crystal Cathedral and Court for Seraph, and creating many more specific tooltips to break out from the main generic type, mainly the break was to keep me from staring at code and bug hunting all day - Beta progress is still going well and though we aren't quite ready to put the firm date on it we're almost there.
Video 2 and 3 are up for this week and next respectively.
Little news this week, here's hoping the video will actually be here this time.
Post by: Ghazkull on November 20, 2015, 06:45:34 pm
Post by: Neonivek on November 20, 2015, 06:51:04 pm
Is it alive? Is it dead?
Sleeping means dead.
But the reason it is referred to as sleeping is because... Being dead isn't as fatal as it is for great old ones... and they can be quite active in their corpse state.
Post by: Ghazkull on November 20, 2015, 07:13:57 pm
i meant the game...but at this point it seems like it doesn't matter anymore.
Post by: Hawk132 on November 20, 2015, 07:33:14 pm
I used to be able to peek at the backer section of the forums and see if something is going on development-wise, but it looks they fixed that. D:
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 20, 2015, 10:21:37 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 20, 2015, 10:31:07 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 20, 2015, 10:45:45 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 21, 2015, 12:30:35 am
You guys are brutal. Devs haven't communicated since Monday, game must be dead!
It's going on four weeks it's taken him to do a video. Just about all of those weeks has been "It'll be there this week"
Post by: Neonivek on November 21, 2015, 01:16:33 am
You guys are brutal. Devs haven't communicated since Monday, game must be dead!
I don't quite understand it either. SURE you guys haven't been showing video after video... but you do a weekly update.
I think they want the Peter Molyneux treatment. You need to start BSing every week and musing about features you want.
Post by: Innsmothe on November 22, 2015, 04:31:18 am
Please do not ruin this for the rest of us. If you really want to be so critical of game devs, no matter how seemingly lazy, please, try to better them instead of shunning them.
If you deliver a better product in a more reasonable time, I will then buy your game and maybe not theirs.
Don;t be bitchy for the reason of being bitchy.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 22, 2015, 04:48:50 am
The game was funded in November, way beyond what was expected. As such, they had a lot of big stretch goals and some of these entailed major changes to how the game works on the inside. The original beta and release dates were missed because of the work they had to do to prepare the game for the stretch goals.
That's fine.
After that though, things start to get a little wonky.
Josh isn't the best at time management or keeping his itinerary organized. Basically every deadline that's been set has been delayed at least once, usually multiple times. That's no big deal, shit happens, but it's the nature of the delays and the more flagrantly broken promises that get us. Way back when there was a series of videos planned to show off modding stuff. One was released, the second was supposedly in development, then I guess Josh got distracted and dropped them completely. We've seen or heard nothing of them since.
The mod tools were released two or three times, never in a fully functional state. Every time we were told that the fixes were coming soon, but they weren't. As far as anyone can tell the mod tools have been abandoned completely until after beta is finished. That's fine with me, a lot of us were confused by mod tools before beta in the first place, but the fact remains that his plans went off the rails with little explanation once again.
Now we're supposedly in the home stretch, we were feature locked for beta months ago but new features continue to be added. The scenario builder video was released like two months ago and the first gameplay video was to follow that. It followed that, a month later. Next video was supposed to be the next week. Nope, bugs to fix and features to add, this week for sure.
That week, nope, bugs to fix and features to add, this week for sure and we're not gonna fix any more bugs until the video's out.
Next week, nope, waluigi time.
And so on.
Our problem isn't that the game is taking a long time, and only two people suggested that it was a scam and they're both gone. Our problem is that Josh is a perfectionist (which is a nice way to say he has terrible time management skills) and he's delaying things unseasonably long because he keeps getting distracted by bugs, polish, and the features he supposedly locked months ago.
You know, the things that traditionally come after beta has been released.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 22, 2015, 11:50:38 am
Post by: jhxmt on November 22, 2015, 01:58:33 pm
Is it frustrating that KDG expect to be releasing beta/mod tools/game/whatever on a given date, tell people, and then miss the date? Yes, of course. Is it unexpected? Well, no, not really. Maybe I'm in a minority in always having taken any proposed dates with a huge pinch of salt, but my reaction to all the delays so far has been, "Fair enough, I can see you're working on stuff, and frankly my guess as to when it would be ready wouldn't have been any better than yours, so I'm not going to judge you for having kept me in the loop."
So I don't feel lied to, because I don't think either I could have predicated timescales any better than KDG have been already. But those dates are predictions, and hence subject to change. *shrug* C'est la vie.
Post by: lordcooper on November 22, 2015, 03:23:13 pm
I feel incredibly sorry for new indie developers these days. Their options seem to be limited to keeping their mouths shut about when they hope to be releasing various bits and pieces, and then getting chastised for not communicating clearly with their audience, or to telling people what their aspirational dates are and then getting chastised when they (inevitably) have to miss those dates.
Or go the route of the Battle Brothers, Dwarf Fortress, Clockwork Empires, Crusader Kings 2, Prison Architect, (and so many other) devs who keep their customers and prospective customers in the loop really well through frequent blog updates/devlogs while still not giving a succession of false/missed deadlines. People are generally a lot more patient when they know why they are waiting for something (say, a blockade on the train track), and a lot less patient after being frequent self imposed deadlines pass (it'll be here in 5 minutes, honest).
Post by: Neonivek on November 22, 2015, 04:23:38 pm
When a friend says they are coming to my house at 3pm I am ready at 3pm and I am then in a continuous state of "being ready" until they finally arrive.
So when they come over at 5 or 6pm, it really bothers me. Even if it wouldn't have if they just said they were here at 5.
Is that similar?
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 22, 2015, 04:40:53 pm
Post by: jhxmt on November 22, 2015, 06:16:07 pm
Or go the route of the Battle Brothers, Dwarf Fortress, Clockwork Empires, Crusader Kings 2, Prison Architect, (and so many other) devs who keep their customers and prospective customers in the loop really well through frequent blog updates/devlogs while still not giving a succession of false/missed deadlines.
Yes, this would be the ideal. At the other end of the spectrum, they could go the route of other developers and communicate nothing whatsoever, so that people believe the game's vapourware. Or they could simply release it half-finished and claim that was the plan all along, ala Doublefine.
I'm not saying they're communicating in the best way - but nor are they a particularly poor example. I'm simply not ready to be foaming-at-the-mouth mad at them for the deadline slippages they've had so far. *shrug*
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 22, 2015, 07:19:28 pm
Post by: Xantalos on November 22, 2015, 07:38:25 pm
Post by: gimli on November 24, 2015, 08:26:58 am
It's also worth adding that the biggest reason most of us are annoyed is because we feel lied to week after week with the "video release this week... Nothing" nonsense. And it just keeps happening. The delays are secondary, and would probably be understandable of we had any idea why,or some kind of forewarning.
I don't even care anymore, but anyway...IMO the biggest problem is that the beta has been pushed back a lot of times. If there will be a beta [finally..], there will be a v1.0 release as well [& patches etc.]. This is not vaporware. I am 99% sure about it. [I see more and more posts on different sites with regard to TWS is vaporware...]
KDG must stop posting about release dates for any TWS related stuff, including in-game videos, betas etc. That is all.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 24, 2015, 10:56:00 am
I just hope I'll be able to play it next year instead of after that...
Post by: Cthulhu on November 24, 2015, 03:59:31 pm
Also, it's just occurred to me, I think I've been so hung up on my messianic visions of the beta that I didn't realize it, but pretty much every actual component of the game we've seen except the map maker has been completely broken on release without half the features supposed to be in it.
Honestly, if the beta's in shambles when it comes out, that'll probably be the end of things for me.
Post by: nenjin on November 24, 2015, 04:06:40 pm
However based on how things have been going, I may pass on the beta and just wait for release to dig into it. Whenever that will be. As a backer the money is already spent, so, no use throwing in the towel until the final game is actually out there.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 24, 2015, 05:02:22 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 24, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Messy sure, but given the current track record I have a bad feeling that after all our waiting the release will be unplayable, we'll get an "oops I fucked up X thing, will fix this weekend" reply, and nothing else.
To be fair you've labeled Josh a perfectionist before. One would hope that translates into a playable beta that isn't completely broken on release.
Because if he wasn't a perfectionist, for a game like this, that would be the likely result.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 24, 2015, 09:45:55 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 24, 2015, 10:08:09 pm
I think that the best option would have been to complete the game as originally imagined and then keep adding on in a CKII-esque model.
Eh, then they would've released one game, and updated its up something that looks nothing like the first release. I think they made the right call, but they really need to meet deadlines and either release something or give solid reasons why they aren't able to.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on November 25, 2015, 01:03:50 am
I think that the best option would have been to complete the game as originally imagined and then keep adding on in a CKII-esque model.From what was said, some of those extra's were dramatic changes that needed to be done in the beginning lest they couldn't be done at all.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 25, 2015, 01:14:09 am
I think that the best option would have been to complete the game as originally imagined and then keep adding on in a CKII-esque model.
The issue is the additions they wanted to make wouldn't have been possible at all without dramatically changing the under-the-hood framework of the game. Procedural generation required a change to a hex-based map instead of hand-drawn, endless mode required a breakup of the game flow which was originally pretty linear, etc.
Post by: gimli on November 25, 2015, 11:37:10 am
I think that the best option would have been to complete the game as originally imagined and then keep adding on in a CKII-esque model.
Eh, that is the plan, isn't it? Example: They will add "endless mode" after the 1.0 release.
Post by: sirvente on November 25, 2015, 11:53:45 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 25, 2015, 01:28:40 pm
That's a fair reason. The problem is that, by his own admission, he completed that architecture overhaul a few months ago.
Post by: sirvente on November 25, 2015, 03:02:49 pm
Post by: Shadowgandor on November 25, 2015, 04:44:42 pm
Is it good business practice? Hell no. Could we end up with something epic after a long period of delays? Hell yes.
Post by: sirvente on November 25, 2015, 06:40:18 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 25, 2015, 07:10:09 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 26, 2015, 05:17:39 am
Post by: ScriptWolf on November 26, 2015, 09:55:00 am
Post by: gimli on November 26, 2015, 10:31:13 am
Josh hasn't logged onto his own site in ten days.
Now that is....weird. :o
I don't know. I feel these guys are looking at this game as the chance of a lifetime to build the game of their dreams and perhaps even reach a historic status, similar to games like Super Meatboy. They want to give everything they have, even moving away from the original roadmap if they feel this is for the better of the game.
Is it good business practice? Hell no. Could we end up with something epic after a long period of delays? Hell yes.
Let's hope so. Definitely, the potential is there, but let's see that beta build first.
Post by: TempAcc on November 27, 2015, 09:14:48 am
Post by: Neonivek on November 27, 2015, 09:19:02 am
Post by: nenjin on November 27, 2015, 11:20:34 am
Post by: Zangi on November 27, 2015, 12:34:31 pm
It might also be that he's realized posting small novels worth of responses on the forum is eating into dev time (and eroding motivation since the forums are undoubtedly reading a lot like this one), and is just staying off the forums until he's gotten the beta squared away.Oh, he has been doing that? Yea... it would be part of the problem. Sadly.
Post by: nenjin on November 27, 2015, 12:43:06 pm
-Missing deadlines because they were constantly stating them.
-Overpromising on features.
-In some cases over describing systems. Great for hype-building. Not exactly a valuable skill during crunch time though.
Most devs stay pretty tight lipped once they're in actual production. KDG seemed to spend a lot of time answering questions on their forums. I like devs that communicate. But it does open them up to criticism because once they start talking to you in depth, that player/developer boundary starts to get a little blurry. Compare and contrast to devs like the Red Hook who, once the game was well into development, basically stopped talking or answering questions except in their own controlled venues. (Basically, dev videos.)
Post by: Sergarr on November 28, 2015, 08:06:36 am
What they need is not talk about "what they want to do", but about "what they've done". Toady, for example, usually talks about "what he has implemented in the last few days" and only rarely about "what he wants to do in the next month". And it shows in that DF is, contrary to what you would expect by only reading the features list, not a vaporware.
It's funny, because DF has gone through multiple rewrites of major systems, the same thing that the dev of TWS apparently wanted to avoid, but, unlike with TWS, people never called DF "vaporware".
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 08:09:21 am
people never called DF "vaporware".
>_>
Post by: Cthulhu on November 28, 2015, 08:40:02 am
Anybody else remember the old dev page with the splash(? I can't remember how they were described) goals? An array of extremely specific events toady wanted to eventually see emerge from the gameplay. Stuff like an elven swordsman cutting off a horse's legs and the momentum sending its rider face-first into a tree.
Post by: Sergarr on November 28, 2015, 09:34:08 am
Well, there could have been some people who called it "vaporware", but they are idiots and don't actually count, because it's not vaporware by definition:people never called DF "vaporware".
>_>
In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware)
It is, actually. I've heard it described that way more than once outside the DF Bubble. it depends on how you define "vaporware." Like, obviously a product exists and it's playable and fun, but the farther you go into the future the more pie-in-the-sky things get.1) If your definition of "vaporware" includes "an actually playable game with tons of features that obviously took a long time investment to make", then it's actually useless as a word. You could use the words "not fully finished", "beta", "early access before it was cool", but you have to completely fail at English language to call DF "vaporware".
Anybody else remember the old dev page with the splash(? I can't remember how they were described) goals? An array of extremely specific events toady wanted to eventually see emerge from the gameplay. Stuff like an elven swordsman cutting off a horse's legs and the momentum sending its rider face-first into a tree.
2) They were called "powergoals", and they were more of an inspiration of what the system should be able to achieve, not strict requirements.
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 09:45:35 am
1) If your definition of "vaporware" includes "an actually playable game with tons of features that obviously took a long time investment to make", then it's actually useless as a word.
One definition of vaporware is a game that will "never" or "seemingly never" be finished without officially being cancelled.
>_>
Post by: Sergarr on November 28, 2015, 10:02:31 am
...Do you even know what "0.40.24" means?1) If your definition of "vaporware" includes "an actually playable game with tons of features that obviously took a long time investment to make", then it's actually useless as a word.
One definition of vaporware is a game that will "never" or "seemingly never" be finished without officially being cancelled.
>_>
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 10:17:41 am
40 = The number of cores complete
24 = I actually forget.
Post by: Sergarr on November 28, 2015, 10:46:18 am
It's why it's not really truthful to say that it's never going to be released - you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 10:56:03 am
you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.
>_>
Painfully to say... if you did do that... the trend states that Tarn Adams will die before the game is complete.
Post by: Sergarr on November 28, 2015, 10:59:49 am
It's more that you could get with TWS, you know, with its "I'm totally going to do this thing next week, guys" bullshit.you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.
>_>
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 11:02:21 am
It's more that you could get with TWS, you know, with its "I'm totally going to do this thing next week, guys" bullshit.you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.
>_>
I think the difference is more that Tarn Adams actually keeps you up to date so the waiting isn't painful. You can stop looking and be confident something is being done.
While TWS currently is projecting the idea that development isn't moving forward and there is some sort of unknown trouble.
I sympathize with the developers because I have the exact same problems (DANG IT players >_< I have a depressive episode I'll get to it later), but I don't feel the problem because I am loosely following it. Waiting between major videos.
Heck I get mad at developers, even ones who do it for free, for getting annoyed at fanbases who would be instantly placated if you gave them a status update every week... even if it was as little as saying "I worked on this"
Post by: ndkid on November 28, 2015, 11:26:51 am
Post by: Neonivek on November 28, 2015, 11:30:07 am
Could we veer the conversation at least back to the failings of the TWS developers? I feel like a conversation about definitions of vaporware and whether DF meets that definition probably belongs in the DF General Discussion forum, not the "Other Games" forum.
Better yet can we Veer it back towards current development.
I do like that they have multiple starts for each of the old ones, many of which can have drastically different effects on the world, but I wonder if some of them were the exception or if all of the old ones will be like that.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 29, 2015, 10:48:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.
If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.
The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.
Post by: miauw62 on November 29, 2015, 05:33:07 pm
I can sort of see the point with DF. Toady has grand ambitions, and if the dev wasn't Toady I'd tell them they'll give up after a few months at most.
Post by: ductape on November 29, 2015, 06:36:34 pm
This conversation is making me realize that our contemporary desire for a completed game is a carry over from 19th century patronage traditions. Like 19th century patrons we want something we can hang in the dining room already, and call our own. Like them, we value artworks both for themselves, and for what control over them represents for us. It all reminds me when Manet painted some asparagusfor a patron, who compained about the painting being too small for the price. So Manet painted him a tiny bit of Asparagus to "make up the difference in weight"Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.
If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.
The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.
This post was great. Though the story of Manet is not true. The painting was commissioned and the buyer overpaid. Manet was being gracious and sent him, who was a close friend, the extra painting with a note, "this one was missing from your bunch". Cute story either way.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 30, 2015, 08:29:29 pm
This conversation is making me realize that our contemporary desire for a completed game is a carry over from 19th century patronage traditions. Like 19th century patrons we want something we can hang in the dining room already, and call our own. Like them, we value artworks both for themselves, and for what control over them represents for us. It all reminds me when Manet painted some asparagusfor a patron, who compained about the painting being too small for the price. So Manet painted him a tiny bit of Asparagus to "make up the difference in weight"Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.
If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.
The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.
This post was great. Though the story of Manet is not true. The painting was commissioned and the buyer overpaid. Manet was being gracious and sent him, who was a close friend, the extra painting with a note, "this one was missing from your bunch". Cute story either way.
That makes it a much nicer story :)
Post by: Neonivek on November 30, 2015, 08:34:21 pm
While in the other Manet was concerned about a friend who paid too much for a painting, and out of the goodness of his heart he gave him an extra one with a bit of a joke attached.
Post by: gimli on December 01, 2015, 11:23:23 am
It looks like that the AI is causing CTDs...ouch!
No videos or beta until this is fixed of course. Let's hope that it won't take months to fix, but who knows...sounds like a nasty and complex AI related problem.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 01, 2015, 12:34:13 pm
Post by: gimli on December 01, 2015, 12:59:23 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 01, 2015, 01:02:25 pm
Post by: gimli on December 01, 2015, 01:04:48 pm
Post by: Sergarr on December 01, 2015, 01:32:14 pm
EDIT: Looked it up (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=375&start=80). And, uh...
Quote
A bit more detail because I think itīs interesting: Aparently the AI now tries to figure out what other parties in the world now will try to do to anticipate it and act in accordance to that. To do that the AI of one party has to "ask" the other AI what it will do, which then starts considering itīs actions and in return ask the first AI what they will do, causing an infinite loop which crashes the game. I would post more but I am not sure if what infos are allowed outside the backers forum. I will ask the mods if we can share more infos.Yeah, I don't see any way to get rid of infinite loops without reworking this whole "AI asking other AIs" part.
Replace it with AIs having some predictive estimates on other's behaviours based on their previous interactions, and then it'll work. For additional bonus points, it would also work for AI prediction player's behaviour and adapting accordingly.
Post by: ndkid on December 01, 2015, 01:33:09 pm
But it's a matter of stopping the loop. Overall AI design might be hard, but I doubt this particular will be.This is actually an interesting problem. I suspect the refactor will be non-trivial, depending on how well modularized the AI code is now. Writing it in my head, I would be tempted to basically hand the "Figure Out What to Do" function an array of the other AI plans. At that point, you could do reasonable parallelization, where you spawn a thread for each AI to think about what it would do with no neighbor data, take the result, feed it into a second iteration, and then you can stop iterating at pretty much any arbitrary point. If a particular AI keeps giving the same answer multiple iterations in a row, you take it out of the processing since its mind is made up.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 01, 2015, 01:42:19 pm
SA seems to think the solution is to use RNG to settle ambiguous cases, which Josh is apparently loath to do.
Post by: jhxmt on December 01, 2015, 01:47:53 pm
It's an interesting problem, though.
Post by: Chosrau on December 01, 2015, 04:56:33 pm
And Josh doesn't want to randomize it? He is unwilling to include mixed strategies? That doesn't make sense to me.
I also don't really understand why AI 1 should know exactly how AI 2 is gonna react. Why should it have this perfect knowledge? What it should do is guess (based on ingame information it has, which might be false, possibly supplied by player/other AI actions) how AI 2 is going to react. And in the end this guessing always comes down to RNG.
It might be unfair saying this based on a quote that does not come from Josh himself, but him not wanting to use RNG does not fill me with competence in believing he actually knows what he is doing in this case.
Post by: Neonivek on December 01, 2015, 05:12:16 pm
Post by: Serenseven on December 01, 2015, 05:22:07 pm
Also, the version on the public forum is missing the information that Josh did get the infinite-loop behavior to stop by imposing a limit on how much information the AI is allowed to gather before it's forced into a decision. The problem now is when the AI gets forced into a decision like that, it often comes back with "do nothing", even when doing nothing is clearly inappropriate in the current context.
Post by: Neonivek on December 01, 2015, 05:23:52 pm
Keep in mind that the original explanation of the problem was an (over)simplified version so that non-coder backers could follow the discussion without getting lost. There's a lot more to it than the AIs mindlessly going around asking each other what they'd do. I just used that as an easily-understandable example of how the AI could get itself into an infinite loop.
Also, the version on the public forum is missing the information that Josh did get the infinite-loop behavior to stop by imposing a limit on how much information the AI is allowed to gather before it's forced into a decision. The problem now is when the AI gets forced into a decision like that, it often comes back with "do nothing", even when doing nothing is clearly inappropriate in the current context.
It is more that they lacked a loop breaker.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 01, 2015, 05:29:44 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 01, 2015, 05:46:03 pm
Post by: Neonivek on December 01, 2015, 05:52:11 pm
I mean, it's a big gnarly stinky hole of broken AI interactions. The effort truly describing the problem to forum goers just so they can understand the problem probably isn't worth it.
Well it isn't really that complicated honestly. I don't know why people are being so critical.
The AI has a situation where they can enter an infinite loop because it spirals out of control. It happens.
Yet everyone is so quick to jump on this game's case... which tells me that everyone is REALLY sick and tired of the game developers.
Mostly because if a developer people liked said this, people would praise them for being so transparent. If say... The Starbound development team did it, people would be annoyed because it would be them wasting time again not making the game they aren't doing particularly well at making.
Post by: Xgamer4 on December 01, 2015, 06:35:13 pm
I also don't really understand why AI 1 should know exactly how AI 2 is gonna react. Why should it have this perfect knowledge? What it should do is guess (based on ingame information it has, which might be false, possibly supplied by player/other AI actions) how AI 2 is going to react. And in the end this guessing always comes down to RNG.
That's the thing, though. How does the AI make a guess? Josh can't code possible guesses in a priori. That undermines the entire reactive AI structure. You'd want the AI to make a reasonable guess.
But before the system can provide "reasonable" guesses, it needs to know what's actually reasonable - which requires knowing what the other AI is planning on doing. Else the AI might react incredibly poorly in some circumstances, simply because they failed to understand what are "reasonable" responses.
But it's a matter of stopping the loop. Overall AI design might be hard, but I doubt this particular will be.This is actually an interesting problem. I suspect the refactor will be non-trivial, depending on how well modularized the AI code is now. Writing it in my head, I would be tempted to basically hand the "Figure Out What to Do" function an array of the other AI plans. At that point, you could do reasonable parallelization, where you spawn a thread for each AI to think about what it would do with no neighbor data, take the result, feed it into a second iteration, and then you can stop iterating at pretty much any arbitrary point. If a particular AI keeps giving the same answer multiple iterations in a row, you take it out of the processing since its mind is made up.
This suffers from the same problem. How do you generate that array of other AI plans? If AI A needs to have an idea of AI B's actions before AI A's "Figure Out What To Do" function returns, but B needs to have an idea of A's before B's "Figure Out What To Do" function returns... well...
Post by: Zangi on December 01, 2015, 07:11:28 pm
Either way, this shouldn't be the whole picture.... just small tidbits of the AI being given out without the context.
Post by: nenjin on December 01, 2015, 07:29:00 pm
Quote
Well it isn't really that complicated honestly. I don't know why people are being so critical.
*says the guy who doesn't code the game, hasn't seen the code, or more than a 3rd party paraphrasing the developer's description of the problem*
Post by: ArKFallen on December 01, 2015, 07:39:50 pm
Post by: ndkid on December 01, 2015, 09:58:04 pm
You may have misunderstood the algorithm I was describing. Imagine that we have 5 AIs.But it's a matter of stopping the loop. Overall AI design might be hard, but I doubt this particular will be.This is actually an interesting problem. I suspect the refactor will be non-trivial, depending on how well modularized the AI code is now. Writing it in my head, I would be tempted to basically hand the "Figure Out What to Do" function an array of the other AI plans. At that point, you could do reasonable parallelization, where you spawn a thread for each AI to think about what it would do with no neighbor data, take the result, feed it into a second iteration, and then you can stop iterating at pretty much any arbitrary point. If a particular AI keeps giving the same answer multiple iterations in a row, you take it out of the processing since its mind is made up.
This suffers from the same problem. How do you generate that array of other AI plans? If AI A needs to have an idea of AI B's actions before AI A's "Figure Out What To Do" function returns, but B needs to have an idea of A's before B's "Figure Out What To Do" function returns... well...
1) Spawn five threads, each AI is handed no data about the other AIs, and is asked what it'd like to do.
2) Collect the five answers and pass those into an iteration of "okay, what would you do if you expected the other AIs to do this".
3) Repeat 2 as many times as you like.
The idea is that you take the recursivity out of the process. How great or small a refactor from a recursive to an iterative strategy would be in this case I cannot say, having no first-hand knowledge of the code. My meta-point was that while there are potential solutions, the problem is probably not as simple as "well, stop letting it loop infinitely"; really, that's a misnomer given the current description of the problem, because it's a recursion stack-overflow from the sounds of it, not an infinite loop.
Post by: birdy51 on December 01, 2015, 11:09:18 pm
Post by: Sergarr on December 02, 2015, 07:17:28 am
No it doesn't. It's really hard to make AI spiral out of control into an infinite loop, if you're not inviting it by doing something reckless like recursive function calls. One pass should always be enough.I mean, it's a big gnarly stinky hole of broken AI interactions. The effort truly describing the problem to forum goers just so they can understand the problem probably isn't worth it.
Well it isn't really that complicated honestly. I don't know why people are being so critical.
The AI has a situation where they can enter an infinite loop because it spirals out of control. It happens.
Also, the version on the public forum is missing the information that Josh did get the infinite-loop behavior to stop by imposing a limit on how much information the AI is allowed to gather before it's forced into a decision. The problem now is when the AI gets forced into a decision like that, it often comes back with "do nothing", even when doing nothing is clearly inappropriate in the current context.Maybe the AIs are just managing to figure out the futility of their existence and inevitability of their defeat and decide that "the winning move is not to play and hope the player leaves due to boredom" :-X
Post by: StupidElves on December 02, 2015, 07:21:54 am
I do wonder how can you create an infinite loop during AI development. From what I know, most common AI architectures (like rule-based systems or neural networks) don't really have any points where it can loop indefinitely. What kind of AI system is he using?
EDIT: Looked it up (http://www.kingdinosaurgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=375&start=80). And, uh...QuoteA bit more detail because I think itīs interesting: Aparently the AI now tries to figure out what other parties in the world now will try to do to anticipate it and act in accordance to that. To do that the AI of one party has to "ask" the other AI what it will do, which then starts considering itīs actions and in return ask the first AI what they will do, causing an infinite loop which crashes the game. I would post more but I am not sure if what infos are allowed outside the backers forum. I will ask the mods if we can share more infos.Yeah, I don't see any way to get rid of infinite loops without reworking this whole "AI asking other AIs" part.
Replace it with AIs having some predictive estimates on other's behaviours based on their previous interactions, and then it'll work. For additional bonus points, it would also work for AI prediction player's behaviour and adapting accordingly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gzsqwEZCM
Post by: TempAcc on December 02, 2015, 07:23:19 am
/partialjoke
Anyway, it does strike me a bit odd that the dev doesn't want to use RNG, if that is true.
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2015, 07:29:28 am
Anyway, it does strike me a bit odd that the dev doesn't want to use RNG, if that is true.
It is more his philosophy on the game and honestly in most of the areas I seen I honestly can dig it.
It is a boon to the game.
Post by: Sergarr on December 02, 2015, 07:33:10 am
a brand new release with new featuresoh shit how did I miss that
Post by: Cthulhu on December 02, 2015, 09:29:24 am
Anyway, it does strike me a bit odd that the dev doesn't want to use RNG, if that is true.
It is more his philosophy on the game and honestly in most of the areas I seen I honestly can dig it.
It is a boon to the game.
No it isn't. Did you miss the part where it broke the game?
There's a reason nobody does it that way.
Post by: Shadowgandor on December 02, 2015, 09:38:31 am
A game that is being developed will break countless of times, especially when worked on by a small development team with less restrictions. This problem, like the countless before and the countless that will come after, is fixable. Why he decided to write a post about it I don't know, maybe to vent his frustrations a bit, but things like this are probably happening on a weekly basis.No it isn't. Did you miss the part where it broke the game?Anyway, it does strike me a bit odd that the dev doesn't want to use RNG, if that is true.
It is more his philosophy on the game and honestly in most of the areas I seen I honestly can dig it.
It is a boon to the game.
There's a reason nobody does it that way.
Post by: Xgamer4 on December 02, 2015, 09:39:27 am
You may have misunderstood the algorithm I was describing. Imagine that we have 5 AIs.
1) Spawn five threads, each AI is handed no data about the other AIs, and is asked what it'd like to do.
2) Collect the five answers and pass those into an iteration of "okay, what would you do if you expected the other AIs to do this".
3) Repeat 2 as many times as you like.
The idea is that you take the recursivity out of the process. How great or small a refactor from a recursive to an iterative strategy would be in this case I cannot say, having no first-hand knowledge of the code. My meta-point was that while there are potential solutions, the problem is probably not as simple as "well, stop letting it loop infinitely"; really, that's a misnomer given the current description of the problem, because it's a recursion stack-overflow from the sounds of it, not an infinite loop.
Er, yes! You're exactly right.
My main concern with that approach is that the results might be less-than-optimal. Sure, the AI will act with knowledge of the other AIs, but they'll be acting with what the other AIs would have done last-pass through the system. If AI actions change drastically from pass n-1 to pass n, and AI A is reacting to AI B's plans, then A could decide to do something on pass n, using B's plans on pass n-1, while B changes its plans entirely on pass n to something A wouldn't react to.
I'm not sure how much of an issue it'd be in practice, and any notably-weird actions could be handwaved as "Well, A expected B to do something completely different", but that was the first potential problem I saw.
That aside, I fundamentally agree with your meta-point, and I've been arguing the exact same point in the Backers forum.
Post by: Xgamer4 on December 02, 2015, 09:41:20 am
A game that is being developed will break countless of times, especially when worked on by a small development team with less restrictions. This problem, like the countless before and the countless that will come after, is fixable. Why he decided to write a post about it I don't know, maybe to vent his frustrations a bit, but things like this are probably happening on a weekly basis.
He (Josh) actually didn't. The official forums were getting incredibly antsy off of another missed-without-notice/explanation deadline, so one of the mods reached out and asked if everything was ok. He came back with that explanation
Post by: Neonivek on December 02, 2015, 09:42:30 am
Though I still think Chucklefish deserve it.
Post by: Sergarr on December 02, 2015, 11:06:28 am
1) The AI problem had nothing to do with RNG.Anyway, it does strike me a bit odd that the dev doesn't want to use RNG, if that is true.
It is more his philosophy on the game and honestly in most of the areas I seen I honestly can dig it.
It is a boon to the game.
No it isn't. Did you miss the part where it broke the game?
There's a reason nobody does it that way.
2) AIs are perfectly possible to do without RNG. Much easier to test that way, too.
Post by: Zangi on December 02, 2015, 12:48:30 pm
Post by: ArKFallen on December 02, 2015, 10:05:37 pm
Post by: wer6 on December 03, 2015, 08:28:41 am
Post by: Cthulhu on December 03, 2015, 08:57:38 am
Game is kill until it's fixed, which will probably be forever, and our suggestions on what to do about it are useless because we don't actually know what's happening.
Post by: gimli on December 03, 2015, 10:13:17 am
However it's hard to understand the devs with regard to their way of communication with the fans. They can't be arsed to tell us that what is happening for weeks or months?...at least the KS page should be updated on a more regular basis.
This isn't the proper way to get more customers, that is for sure. [& it's a good way to annoy those who have already spent their money on the project.] ::)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 03, 2015, 12:00:49 pm
We all appriciate Josh's hard work, but no talky, no good : I
Post by: dennislp3 on December 03, 2015, 12:19:14 pm
I recommend people find something else to do while waiting and maybe we can get this thread back on some sort of track when actual news comes out maybe?
Post by: Neonivek on December 03, 2015, 12:20:06 pm
Does this thread have a point any more? I see it as doing nothing but breeding and multiplying negativity and it's getting really annoying because everyone keeps rehashing the exact same thing over and over.
I recommend people find something else to do while waiting and maybe we can get this thread back on some sort of track when actual news comes out maybe?
I am personally waiting for more info
The dang evil tease they did WAY earlier has got me hooked :P but alas they aren't going to be putting out info for a long time.
But honestly I am not bothered in the least about this negativity probably because I am not married to the game. I actually like hearing what people are thinking and the rationalities and irrationalities behind it.
Post by: nenjin on December 03, 2015, 12:40:43 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 03, 2015, 12:46:44 pm
A Few Notes on the Various AIs
Unread postby Nyarlathosean ŧ Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:52 pm
A small aside from the bug-fixing: In the course of answering questions about the AI issue, Josh gave me a rundown of the various kinds of AIs and basic information on how they operate. Some of this is old news to those who follow the AUA threads, but that information is scattered in bits and pieces among 2600+ posts, so I thought I'd work up a summary of the different AIs.
Hero AIs work off a system of Threat. Threat is generated by your Agents' activities (influenced by both your Agents' Danger and Profile) and by Quests. In general, the higher the Threat value, the more visible it is to Heroes (the Threate can be "seen" from farther away) and the more priority it has. Threats that are things that the Hero "wants" to take care of are also prioritized, as are Threats that correspond with the Hero's area of expertise. (Sage-type Heroes won't go marching off to challenge that orc warlord to single combat, for example.) Later on, as Clues accumulate and your Names are revealed, they become a bit more proactive and work to strengthen themselves and nearby areas against your Old One's influence and abilities, as well as hunt down your Agents and thwart your plans.
Champion AIs work in much the same way as Hero AIs except they additionally have a strong desire to follow their Leader's wishes and advance their Nation's causes.
The Chosen One AI is a special case that works like a normal Hero AI, but additionally can see Prophecy Quests (the Chosen One is the only one who can see these), and gradually acquires the desire to "Accept His/Her Destiny" and prepare to challenge and defeat you.
Notable AIs are almost entirely reactive and generally take actions only in response to events happening in their POI that directly concern them. For example, a noble may begin a Plot in response to dissension at court, or he may respond to another noble trying to discredit him by challenging the other noble to a debate or a duel...or just arranging a convenient assassination. They have almost no capability for proactive actions on their own initiative, although they do have desires and goals and frustrating those for long enough may rouse them to action.
Leader AIs are primarily reactive, but not to the extreme of the Notable AIs. Most of the time they concern themselves with the day-to-day running of their Nation, managing Resources, establishing Trade, quelling the occasional angry mob, and so forth. As information comes in and/or new incidents arise, they take Political actions (which if you have Influence at court you can sway what they do), issue orders to their Champions, give commands to their armies, and take a more active role. Leaders, like Heroes, will become more proactive as Global Awareness of your Old One's growing threat rises and will take steps to protect/defend their Nation from your evil grasp. There is also a "Balance of Power" mechanic that causes Leader AIs to keep tabs on other Leader AIs; if a Leader gets too powerful, other Leaders start to view him or her more warily and may take steps to thwart that Leader's further ambitions.
Military AIs work within the chain of command system to accomplish their Leader's military goals. Depending on the size and nature of the controlling Nation, the chain of command may be very short (orc warbands) or more complex (Cylarian and Arden typically have a couple of generals that oversee the overall theater of war and then some lesser commanders that are in charge of specific forces). Military AIs constantly "chatter" amongst themselves to keep abreast of the changing situations on the battlefield, plan ahead for when and where reinforcements are likely to be needed, know when to press the attack or to retreat, etc. Commanders also have their own personal desires, such as wanting Glory and Prestige, that may conflict with their duties.
The Alliance AI only comes into being once an Alliance is formed. It acts as a unified "central command" for the Alliance and is far more interested in seeing you (or another Rival) sealed away than other AIs. It has access to all the resources and armies of its member states and can generally use them as it sees fit, although demanding too much of a constituent nation will lead to internal strife. The member nations' Leader AIs do not go away, and there is opportunity for fracturing an Alliance by setting its members' desires at odds with the Alliance's.
Rival Old One AIs are the most complex, since they are "playing" the game alongside you. Some Rivals choose a sphere of influence and mainly work within it. For example, Dagon tends to favor bringing the Deep Ones over to his side, establishing supremacy on and in the seas, seeking particular artifacts of interest, and gaining footholds on the coasts and islands. If you leave those areas alone, Dagon will probably not clash with you for a while (until your global threat starts becoming obvious). On the other hand, if you are actively interfering with his plans, he'll start seeing you as a larger threat and begin working to actively counter you, and will be more willing to leave his "preferred" range of options to do so. Other Rival Old Ones, such as Hastur, do not have a preconceived plan in mind at the start of the game. Instead, they look at the world (and your actions in it) and try to identify weak areas where they can establish themselves. They do this roughly in the same way you do, by Infiltration. Once the Rival has a target, he decides what he wants to do with that area (raise an undead army, drive the inhabitants to madness, open a portal to the Underworld there) and takes steps to implement the chosen goal. In addition, Rivals also try to determine YOUR intentions ("Belial is trying to control the Wyver Republic") and decide what to do about those - whether you're not worth bothering with, or whether it should do things to counteract you like getting their corrupted general promoted in that nation's army, corrupting a nearby rival kingdom to maintain a balance of power, establishing their Agent at court to negate your influence, or even outright destroying the place. There is also a system of synergistic threats to guide the Rivals: for example, if you (or another Rival) control a bunch of ley lines and then move to reactivate the Sentinel, a Rival would consider that much more threatening than holding the ley lines alone or reactivating the Sentinel alone.
Post by: Scoops Novel on December 03, 2015, 05:32:30 pm
Post by: gimli on December 08, 2015, 10:12:56 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 10, 2015, 11:30:12 am
Post by: ArKFallen on December 10, 2015, 11:47:37 am
There have been some updates on the backer forum, explaining some details and things are moving along.If or when people find it prudent to extrapolate it will be appreciated.
Post by: Yodamaster on December 10, 2015, 12:00:36 pm
There have been some updates on the backer forum, explaining some details and things are moving along.If or when people find it prudent to extrapolate it will be appreciated.
At the moment they're requesting that we don't share it with people outside of the backer forum. But yeah as already said, things are moving along, and I'm personally encouraged by the updates.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 10, 2015, 12:38:42 pm
Post by: i2amroy on December 10, 2015, 10:07:33 pm
The most we can really say is don't worry, it turns out Josh isn't a horrible programmer who walked into obvious problems. The actual issues are more complicated and more reasonable for a skilled programmer to run into than the AI recursively calling itself.Indeed, as a computer science major I'll say that the problems he ran into are ones that you could still see very easily showing up even in large company-based development. The fact that he's figured out what's causing the problem is very encouraging to see as a programmer; very often those type of bugs are the ones that end up with titles like "The game crashes randomly" and then sit unsolved in the bug tracker for years, since they are usually extremely difficult to diagnose and track down.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 16, 2015, 02:25:06 am
Quote from: Nyarlathosean
Still under the weather, so a short and sweet update this week:
I. All known critical bugs are squashed.
II. Josh is currently putting the beta candidate through another round of testing to make sure the fixes for the above bugs don't in turn introduce their own. So far, so good.
III. There are some minor bugs/aesthetic problems/quality-of-life issues, but these have been judged not worthy of immediate resolution, and will be addressed after the beta release.
IV. So as not to jinx himself, Josh promises no dates. But at the moment, the road looks clear ahead for proceeding onward to videos and the beta.
Post by: gimli on December 16, 2015, 10:41:15 am
Post by: Neonivek on December 16, 2015, 11:40:08 am
I don't understand people's negativity to this project :P but it has somehow become so interesting because of it. The developer does something normal and suddenly it is a conspiracy! (I am really exaggerating so please bare with me)
But I am glad things are back on track anyhow, this game interests me and anything that gets me closer to actually seeing this game in action I am happy for.
Post by: Zangi on December 16, 2015, 12:09:21 pm
Glad I always get off the hype train after the initial funding phase for kickstarter stuff.
EDIT: Oh right, missed the smilie somehow...
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 16, 2015, 01:13:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 16, 2015, 01:22:07 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on December 16, 2015, 02:00:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 16, 2015, 03:28:57 pm
Thus far, this game's development has been an emotional roller coaster.
An emotional roller coaster traveling at about 2 MPH.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 16, 2015, 07:33:51 pm
Mostly what I've seen is people freaking out for no good reason.
This. Games are always delayed. The stretch goals required him to basically rewrite the game from scratch. At some point he will finish the game and we will play it. The end.
Having any emotional investment beyond what I just detailed above is... problematic.
Post by: Xantalos on December 16, 2015, 07:38:28 pm
This thread summed up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiekQF8-Wwk)Thus far, this game's development has been an emotional roller coaster.
An emotional roller coaster traveling at about 2 MPH.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 16, 2015, 08:28:46 pm
Post by: ScriptWolf on December 21, 2015, 09:49:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on December 21, 2015, 09:59:22 am
Post by: Mithras on December 21, 2015, 10:16:14 am
If the game isn't released this year I wont be surprised or disappointed. Josh didn't state a hard deadline, we shouldn't treat it as such.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 21, 2015, 05:17:36 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 21, 2015, 06:26:07 pm
I am an optimist.
His increased communication is assuring. Scoopbeard approves of this act.
Post by: Mithras on December 22, 2015, 06:43:22 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 22, 2015, 07:14:54 am
I am optimistic and all for optimism, I'm just wary of it turning into anger and recrimination if people are still interpreting "I'll try to do this by then" as "it will be done by then."And anger leads to hate
Post by: gimli on December 22, 2015, 10:09:26 am
I am optimistic and all for optimism, I'm just wary of it turning into anger and recrimination if people are still interpreting "I'll try to do this by then" as "it will be done by then."And anger leads to hate
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 22, 2015, 11:13:43 am
That seems silly, to put it in a different example;
Your mom says "Come over for x-mas tommorow, everything is ready" - then you don't see or hear from her for 3 weeks, the house is empty, dad has no clue whats going on.
And all you do is ask how she is on facebook, then someone tells you ya overreacting.
Post by: ndkid on December 22, 2015, 12:47:09 pm
"for no good reason."Would you stop rushing your mom, already? She's asked you to come over for Christmas three years in a row and, each time, she's actually been in Vegas on Christmas day. When are you going to learn that regardless of what she says up front, Christmas always comes late, and you shouldn't head over until you get that phone call in January where she says, "why aren't you here yet? I have your Christmas dinner ready!"
That seems silly, to put it in a different example;
Your mom says "Come over for x-mas tommorow, everything is ready" - then you don't see or hear from her for 3 weeks, the house is empty, dad has no clue whats going on.
And all you do is ask how she is on facebook, then someone tells you ya overreacting.
Post by: ventuswings on December 22, 2015, 12:56:39 pm
Does this thread have a point any more? I see it as doing nothing but breeding and multiplying negativity and it's getting really annoying because everyone keeps rehashing the exact same thing over and over.Seems to be better idea than talking over each other with strange analogies.... pretty sure we'll have something to talk about a week from now, one way or another :-[
I recommend people find something else to do while waiting and maybe we can get this thread back on some sort of track when actual news comes out maybe?
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 22, 2015, 04:57:12 pm
Your mom says "Come over for x-mas tommorow, everything is ready" - then you don't see or hear from her for 3 weeks, the house is empty, dad has no clue whats going on.Bad example, because I actually care about my mom whereas if a game takes longer than expected its not something I worry over. I also didn't back it, so thats probably another factor. The game is not a family member
And all you do is ask how she is on facebook, then someone tells you ya overreacting.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 22, 2015, 05:05:21 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 22, 2015, 05:10:15 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on December 22, 2015, 05:14:03 pm
I backed it but couldn't care less about when it's finished. What's that Gabe Newell quote, good games stay good while rushed games bump into a wall or something? Ten years down the line I might spend an evening of nostalgia with TWS and I won't care one bit about it's release date. There's plenty of good, finished games to tide me over while I "wait" for TWS. There's a Steam sale, you folks might want to pick some up too.That quote would sound a lot better if there wasn't so many awful 'early access' 'games' that will never be finished on steam.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 22, 2015, 05:17:22 pm
precisely why I have stopped doing early access entirelyI backed it but couldn't care less about when it's finished. What's that Gabe Newell quote, good games stay good while rushed games bump into a wall or something? Ten years down the line I might spend an evening of nostalgia with TWS and I won't care one bit about it's release date. There's plenty of good, finished games to tide me over while I "wait" for TWS. There's a Steam sale, you folks might want to pick some up too.That quote would sound a lot better if there wasn't so many awful 'early access' 'games' that will never be finished on steam.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 22, 2015, 05:37:33 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 22, 2015, 05:41:03 pm
Well if you don't care about the game, just leave it at that and don't get all judgemental.I just offered my opinion that some of the reactions to the delays were a bit over the top. I'm interested in seeing the game be completed as well, but I'm not going all chicken little every time a week passes without news. I'm sorry if you think I was insulting you somehow, that wasn't my intention.
Post by: nenjin on December 22, 2015, 06:13:31 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/CL5u9hBl.jpg)
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 22, 2015, 06:15:12 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 22, 2015, 06:45:53 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 22, 2015, 10:34:33 pm
Why is john romero holding a coffee cup and some bowling pins?
Intentional or not, this made my day.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 23, 2015, 05:10:44 am
unintentional but I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. I've never seen that movie. Might do this weekendWhy is john romero holding a coffee cup and some bowling pins?
Intentional or not, this made my day.
Post by: puke on December 26, 2015, 04:24:17 pm
Personally?
(http://i.imgur.com/CL5u9hBl.jpg)
+++
Post by: lordcooper on January 04, 2016, 06:05:45 am
Post by: ndkid on January 05, 2016, 11:18:05 am
THE SEASONS CHANGE. CHILDREN ARE BORN, GROW OLD, AND DIE. EMPIRES CRUMBLE. DEVELOPMENT TRUNDLES ON IN SILENCE.Not total silence. In the backer forums, Sean talked to Josh and learned that there are still beta problems, and Josh will theoretically be posting sometime this week with a new timeline.
With pragmatic/cynical timeline inflation, I think that means maybe videos and beta before spring.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 05, 2016, 11:34:36 am
Post by: Neonivek on January 05, 2016, 11:47:02 am
Yeah consider yourselves lucky.
Post by: ndkid on January 05, 2016, 12:05:19 pm
Given that the project I am waiting on hasn't updated since October...If you're only waiting on *one* project, you're more disciplined than I am! :-)
Yeah consider yourselves lucky.
But, yeah, my big one is Net Gain... I try to poke that guy every season or so to remind him that, hey, people gave him money, maybe he should actually give us updates occasionally. It usually doesn't work.
Post by: gimli on January 05, 2016, 12:17:23 pm
Perhaps they are consulting GRRM on the timetables. :D
A Song That Sleeps
Post by: nenjin on January 05, 2016, 02:42:54 pm
Post by: jhxmt on January 05, 2016, 04:53:12 pm
But, yeah, my big one is Net Gain...
Yeah, I backed Net Gain too. This may go some way towards explaining why I am really, really not concerned about a relatively small amount of radio silence from the That Which Sleeps devs.
Post by: nenjin on January 05, 2016, 05:04:12 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 05, 2016, 05:23:51 pm
Net Gain, Kult. When you've watched one dev have a full on meltdown, a questionable meltdown from another is a lot less of a concern.
Let us add Mage's Initiation to that list.
Post by: Kopistko on January 05, 2016, 05:59:42 pm
P.s. Yeah, I know, my bad engrish is bad.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 05, 2016, 06:02:39 pm
Post by: Amperzand on January 05, 2016, 06:16:39 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on January 06, 2016, 01:08:19 am
You know, KDG have the worst possible PR. Seriously, showing content and progress of development only to backers? WTF? But I'm still so hyped about this game.
P.s. Yeah, I know, my bad engrish is bad.
its not bad PR...its smart. especially with all these delays...the general public doesnt need to see the ugly side of development. Thats how you get masses of idiots raging and sending death threats and stupid shit like that on the internet.
Not to mention KDG doesnt have the time or resources for dedicated PR efforts
Post by: i2amroy on January 06, 2016, 03:11:11 am
Post by: lordcooper on January 06, 2016, 11:21:43 am
Indeed. Honestly I'm surprised that non-backers have gotten as much insight as they actually have, I've certainly backed a fair number of games where non-backers don't get much more than a random short kickstarter post every couple of months; not giving information out to non-backers is by far the normal way of doing things from what I've seen.
Usually not while the game is available for purchase though :)
Post by: i2amroy on January 06, 2016, 11:28:37 am
Usually not while the game is available for purchase though :)Eh, it's a preorder currently, not a purchase. That just usually means that you get the extra page of store description usually, not anything about active development information. :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 13, 2016, 09:37:26 pm
Post by: Karlito on January 13, 2016, 11:00:41 pm
Quote from: Josh
Fully intend to post in the next few days, I have a rather large video I recorded...that will be going up with it - their are problems that remain though the notables finally appear to haven fallen in line (for the second time). I am not happy with the abundance of error handling I've had to scatter throughout the engine in order to properly "disable" some of the features but I've plugged it all into a utility to upload it by the beta backers so hopefully the data during beta will let us filter out the noise and find the exact causes.
So still the long slog to beta.
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 21, 2016, 11:45:56 am
Post by: Zangi on January 21, 2016, 12:34:51 pm
Still no news, and our messenger has stopped hearing anything either. We have no reason to believe Josh isn't working, but no word of anything has reached anyone on the forums. General consensus, and the recommendation from Sean the mod and messenger, is for the forum to go into hibernation and everyone find something else to do.That recommendation probably should have been given months ago...
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 22, 2016, 05:08:44 am
Post by: gimli on January 22, 2016, 11:53:52 am
Post by: Drakale on January 22, 2016, 12:00:37 pm
Who worries? Oh wait..... (http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=3058)
That site was painful to browse, not sure if he's entirely sane.
Post by: gimli on January 22, 2016, 12:14:06 pm
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 22, 2016, 12:18:46 pm
Hehe. Perhaps he is banned from the official forum? Anyway he started his crusade (http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=1006) in 2015.02.
Forum's backer only right? I seem to recall that he de-backed himself which would technically cause him to be banned, in a way.
Post by: Serenseven on January 22, 2016, 12:28:45 pm
Hehe. Perhaps he is banned from the official forum?He was banned from the forum in October 2015, along with one other.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 22, 2016, 02:58:53 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 22, 2016, 03:08:50 pm
How can someone obsess so much about a game? It is just a game. Nice if it comes out and turns awesome, but if not, meh. It won't ruin lives. It won't kill anyone.I'm guessing some of it is coming from backers who already have money on the line.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2016, 03:21:27 pm
How can someone obsess so much about a game? It is just a game. Nice if it comes out and turns awesome, but if not, meh. It won't ruin lives. It won't kill anyone.He gave $10, and then got it back. See, this is important.
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 22, 2016, 03:34:07 pm
How can someone obsess so much about a game? It is just a game. Nice if it comes out and turns awesome, but if not, meh. It won't ruin lives. It won't kill anyone.He gave $10, and then got it back. See, this is important.
I think he mentioned that he was actually in for $50, before he got banned and refunded. Not that that changes anything... $50 still isn't that much money in this context.
Post by: TempAcc on January 22, 2016, 05:59:20 pm
In comparison, ToadyOne, with sole help of Threetoe, manages both DF's development, community administration and donation gifts, while keeping us posted on DF development on a several days per week basis, and most of his periods of silence were explained later and were mostly shorter then Josh's periods of silence.
Post by: Jopax on January 22, 2016, 08:26:34 pm
If anything, regular updates would probably just get me hyped and make the wait all the more annoying.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 22, 2016, 08:40:52 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 22, 2016, 09:20:58 pm
Post by: ndkid on January 22, 2016, 09:53:45 pm
I wouldn't call it "discourtesy" on the part of the dev, lack of professionalism maybe, but not discourtesy.The first analogy that comes to mind is if I order food delivered and they tell me it'll be there in 30 minutes. If 30 minutes comes and goes, and then another 30, and I never hear from the restaurant of the deliverer, I would consider that discourtesy. Ditto a friend who says they'll pick me up at the airport at 2pm, the cable guy who says he'll be by at 11... and on and on. If one is not going to make the time that one says that they well, it is polite to inform the other person of your tardiness, whether you can give an updated timeline or not. And it's discourteous to not do so.
Post by: Sindain on January 22, 2016, 10:19:19 pm
I wouldn't call it "discourtesy" on the part of the dev, lack of professionalism maybe, but not discourtesy.The first analogy that comes to mind is if I order food delivered and they tell me it'll be there in 30 minutes. If 30 minutes comes and goes, and then another 30, and I never hear from the restaurant of the deliverer, I would consider that discourtesy. Ditto a friend who says they'll pick me up at the airport at 2pm, the cable guy who says he'll be by at 11... and on and on. If one is not going to make the time that one says that they well, it is polite to inform the other person of your tardiness, whether you can give an updated timeline or not. And it's discourteous to not do so.
A more accurate analogy would be if you order food and they said it'll be there in 30 minutes. 30 minutes later they call and say they will be 30 minutes late. 30 minutes later they call again and say they will be 30 minutes late. So on and so on...
It is now two weeks later. The food place last called a couple hours ago.
My point is is that they've given so many "updated timelines" which they then failed to meet that I can't really trust them with regards to any new timelines. Really all I can expect at this point is for them to continue development and maybe I'll get surprised by a beta a couple months down the line.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 23, 2016, 12:27:46 am
Still no news, and our messenger has stopped hearing anything either. We have no reason to believe Josh isn't working, but no word of anything has reached anyone on the forums. General consensus, and the recommendation from Sean the mod and messenger, is for the forum to go into hibernation and everyone find something else to do.
I believe Josh is working, but very slowly. From what I understand he is working full time to support himself, and not on the game. Thus the game is only progressing in Josh's spare time.
Post by: Cruxador on January 23, 2016, 05:33:45 am
Post by: Lapoleon on January 23, 2016, 05:55:45 am
When the timeline and broken promises are laid out like that though, it really is quite dismal. While I can agree with you guys that it might be more productive to go "fuck it" and leave the game at that, it doesn't really make sense to criticize a guy for writing a blog post that's critical of the affair. After all, people sometimes do things that aren't totally productive, and it's hard to not be frustrated if you're someone who, like me, would like this game to actually get released and be as good as it appears that it could be.
If it was just a blog post it would be okay (although you have to read his blog to believe how bad it is), but he has gone on a rampage a few times across multiple forums randomly spamming his views on how terrible TWS is, even places that didn't have any discussion on the subject previously.
Post by: Jopax on January 23, 2016, 07:21:44 am
Still no news, and our messenger has stopped hearing anything either. We have no reason to believe Josh isn't working, but no word of anything has reached anyone on the forums. General consensus, and the recommendation from Sean the mod and messenger, is for the forum to go into hibernation and everyone find something else to do.
I believe Josh is working, but very slowly. From what I understand he is working full time to support himself, and not on the game. Thus the game is only progressing in Josh's spare time.
Wasn't the point of the KS to not have to work a job and work on the game? What was the point of the KS then if he has to go back to work a year after the KS ended?
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 23, 2016, 08:12:56 am
Post by: Cthulhu on January 23, 2016, 10:34:47 am
80,000 isn't much and it's also going to art costs and the like.
As much as the new features sound cool, I was hyped for the game as described pre-kickstarter. More and more I wish the kickstarter had failed or been only a modest success.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 23, 2016, 10:42:06 am
I know some of the money went to art assets (and I know this independently of KDG's representations), but the rest, it's unclear. One of the mods, Sean, made a few representations about what the money was and was not used for but I haven't looked at them recently.
Post by: Serenseven on January 23, 2016, 11:44:32 am
I know some of the money went to art assets (and I know this independently of KDG's representations), but the rest, it's unclear. One of the mods, Sean, made a few representations about what the money was and was not used for but I haven't looked at them recently.Keep in mind that I cannot actually represent KDG; I don't work for them. I was just serving as a communications liaison between KDG and the backers for a while. So while I try to make sure that what I'm saying is accurate to the best of my knowledge, don't take it as gospel and/or legal fact.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 23, 2016, 02:29:34 pm
Maybe.
Post by: Capsicum on January 23, 2016, 09:06:03 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 23, 2016, 09:08:07 pm
Definitely my last time backing anything on Kickstarter. I'm not out much money regardless of what happens, but the experience has altered my opinion of crowdfunding, as in; no thanks.Kickstarter isn't a store. You should never go in with the mindset that you are buying a product. You are donating to a project which may or may not come to fruition. Don't buy into the hype. Hell it might be best to just ignore it for 6 months and check back after that to see progress.
Post by: Darkmere on January 23, 2016, 10:06:56 pm
I don't gamble and very VERY rarely back anything in early access or similar. There's a reason for that...
Post by: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
Definitely my last time backing anything on Kickstarter. I'm not out much money regardless of what happens, but the experience has altered my opinion of crowdfunding, as in; no thanks.Kickstarter isn't a store. You should never go in with the mindset that you are buying a product. You are donating to a project which may or may not come to fruition. Don't buy into the hype. Hell it might be best to just ignore it for 6 months and check back after that to see progress.
No you aren't donating
You are "producing" or "Funding".
Donations are a gift. Funding means they have a obligation towards you.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 24, 2016, 12:02:31 am
This is the only project I've ever backed on KS. With how this one's gone, it's going to stay the only one.
Post by: Xantalos on January 24, 2016, 12:09:13 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 24, 2016, 01:07:55 am
Post by: Rose on January 24, 2016, 01:31:39 am
Post by: jhxmt on January 24, 2016, 07:11:59 am
My mindset's not far away from forsaken's. While I don't consider it a donation per se, I don't view the 'obligation' that the developers have towards me to be anywhere near the level of e.g. a developer who's selling a finished product. I don't expect immediate responses. I don't expect huge, PR-representative levels of communication. I don't, crucially, expect timelines to be accurate (or even remotely accurate).
That's mostly due to my experience to date with EA/kickstarter projects. TWS is, at this point in time, not radically different from any of the other projects I've put money towards, and is substantially better than a number of them (SBDF-9, SF and Net Gain in particular). I'm really not that worried at this stage. That might change if the communications blackout continues on for months, but not right now.
Edit: mi spelin is atroshus.
Post by: gimli on January 24, 2016, 10:39:58 am
Hehe. Perhaps he is banned from the official forum?He was banned from the forum in October 2015, along with one other.
Oh...heh. ::) If things won't change, we can expect to have a new post on his blog in a couple of months I guess. :D
Anyway...
I will never spend any money on 1-2 men KS projects, since they have the biggest chance to fail [The lead dev/coder gets bored of the development/real life issues/death etc.]...but again, not everyone thinks like me thankfully! If everyone would think this way, we wouldn't have gems like Rimworld.
...as for KDG & TWS: I have one problem with them, and that is their way of "communication". It's kinda funny that the devs have been active for a good period, and then...this...would it be hard to post 2 lines on the KS site that "Ok dudes there are some serious problems with the code, no gameplay videos & beta 'til it is fixed, but we will keep you updated on a monthly basis" or "the development is on hold because of X" etc. You got the picture.
Post by: StupidElves on January 24, 2016, 03:00:37 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 25, 2016, 12:11:32 pm
Post by: ndkid on January 25, 2016, 12:33:11 pm
It is a gamble. It's like buying stock in a startup, sometimes you get dividends, sometimes the company folds.The SEC mandates that startups provide updates to investors quarterly. Also, using investor funds for non-company activities is illegal. Kickstart has no mandated communication rates and no enforcement arm, so I'm not sure the comparison is that apropos.
Post by: Zangi on January 25, 2016, 01:25:33 pm
And sure its a fine example. You just have to just accept the fact that most of the people panhandling their ideas ain't gonna be professional, this is more like the wild west version of investing. You throw money at em in hopes of increasing their chance of succeeding, but it can still fail anyways and maybe you'll have some recourse. But its like bankruptcy, you ain't likely to get anything if they have to do that in the first place.
Stay out if you ain't into that. Simple as that.
Post by: jhxmt on January 25, 2016, 04:05:14 pm
It is a gamble. It's like buying stock in a startup, sometimes you get dividends, sometimes the company folds.The SEC mandates that startups provide updates to investors quarterly. Also, using investor funds for non-company activities is illegal. Kickstart has no mandated communication rates and no enforcement arm, so I'm not sure the comparison is that apropos.
Well, yeah. That's just means it's unregulated, which makes it more of a gamble. Honestly, if you were looking at Kickstarter as an investment platform and were looking for some sort of return, it's towards the extreme end of the risk/reward spectrum (for very small one- or two-person outfits, at least).
But of course, most people aren't looking at it as an investment opportunity with associated risk/reward. They're looking at it as a prepurchase (or somewhere between the two). Which is where the difference in outlooks arises, I guess, as it'll vary massively depending on how you view the transaction.
Post by: Cruxador on January 27, 2016, 12:42:20 am
*Axes and Anvils. Due to mismanagement, the guy behind it went bankrupt and lost his home. The game is still going to get to backers eventually, according to him, but it's been years now.
Post by: lordcooper on January 27, 2016, 02:15:55 am
Ever since about December, I've been harassed by a voice that is claiming to be the sun, and its been attacking me and harassing me almost every hour of the day. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1820893788/katalyka/posts/239764) Thats probably the most spectacular of them. The rabbit hole goes deep.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 27, 2016, 08:59:47 am
There's way more than one physical KS that went tits up after funding.
Ever since about December, I've been harassed by a voice that is claiming to be the sun, and its been attacking me and harassing me almost every hour of the day. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1820893788/katalyka/posts/239764) Thats probably the most spectacular of them. The rabbit hole goes deep.
Wow, that's... I feel sorry for her.
Post by: Hanzoku on January 27, 2016, 09:19:44 am
Hope she manages to get the help she needs.
Post by: Cruxador on January 27, 2016, 12:39:27 pm
There's way more than one physical KS that went tits up after funding.I didn't claim it to be perfect, I only had that one example handy off the top of my head since it's the only one I backed. But the rate of failure is much better, comparable to traditional forms of funding despite generally being for projects which would not be funded except out of pocket, whereas with video games even projects that look like something an indie publisher might spring for will often end up disappointing at best. You can list more than one failure in any medium, but it's hard to list enough successes in video games to fill a single hand.
Quote
Ever since about December, I've been harassed by a voice that is claiming to be the sun, and its been attacking me and harassing me almost every hour of the day. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1820893788/katalyka/posts/239764) Thats probably the most spectacular of them. The rabbit hole goes deep.Oh yeah, I've heard this story before. This is definitely an exception to general trends though, most people in any group are a lot saner than her.
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2016, 12:45:37 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 27, 2016, 12:51:03 pm
Post by: TempAcc on January 27, 2016, 01:10:02 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 27, 2016, 03:37:40 pm
Eh, KS is actualy full of nutjobs and people who are completely oblivious to the fact their projects make no sense/look terrible. That one girl prob just ran against a wall and is now trying to feign lunacy so the backers dont ask for refunds en masse. The only exceptional thing about her is that her project actualy got funded, somehow.She apparently completed her project and some people got it but she hit problems funding the shipping, so I think actual mental health issues are at play here. If nothing else, it's kind of crazy to pretend you're crazy just because you ran out of money, especially if you're not even trying to pretend you didn't. Getting disability for mental health issues is also a pretty solid indicator that they're real, most governments don't like giving out money without first making absolute sure you need it (despite Norway finding that it's substantially cheaper to do so) and the US isn't known for being generous even to the folks that really do need it.
Post by: nenjin on January 27, 2016, 03:52:48 pm
Post by: lordcooper on January 27, 2016, 07:12:47 pm
That one girl prob just ran against a wall and is now trying to feign lunacy so the backers dont ask for refunds en masse. The only exceptional thing about her is that her project actualy got funded, somehow.
Far from it. Her KS profile has links to both her facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ThisClose.ToEscape) and deviant art (http://porkshanks.deviantart.com/) accounts, which are both packed with lunacy going back years before the kickstarter (I figure it's okay to post them if she did), although it seems to have shifted away from celestial beings and towards gender, race and plants as of late. Even the image used of her as her KS avatar is from a nude photo.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 27, 2016, 09:03:20 pm
Edit: This video always freaks me out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V521Umt1NjU
Post by: takfpbi on January 27, 2016, 11:04:04 pm
I take it that the guy in the video linked above heard the phone ring and a voice talk to him when he picked it up. I wonder if he saw the screen say that he had an incoming call? Does the phone have a record of a call, or would it have a record of a missed call if he didn't pick up? Does he see the screen say that there is an incoming call when he hears the ring and looks at the screen (and the voice tells him that someone is at his door when there is no one there)? Would other people not see any indication of a call on his screen? Or does he not think to check that? Obviously he gets some kind of strong indication that he's getting a call (I assume he hears the phone's ringtone). He also gets some sense from somewhere that it might not be real, because he says that it's probably an episode. But then he answers and listens and hangs up and goes to the door to check anyway (and of course no one is there).
The thing about it is how compelling it is, even when he strongly suspects that it's not real.
Again though: everyone does unproductive things. Everyone gets confused from time to time. Everyone believes some things that aren't true. If you pay attention, you will see that you have thoughts in your own head that prompt you towards the uproductive, the untrue, and the crazy in various ways. Maybe you don't actually hear or see things that other people don't hear or see--in other words, it doesn't proceed out of your thoughts and into your senses. Maybe it's not as compelling, and you usually don't act on it, or at least not so much. But it's still there, and it's the same thing, only not as strong in you as in the "schizophrenic."
None of this stuff is new, or even particularly mysterious. In fact, it's very old and quite well understood. But there are a very large number of people who are very invested in NOT believing the old explanations. Hence modern "diseases" like schizophrenia, which will no doubt be categorized and named differently in another few centuries, this time with even less understanding and even less effective treatments.
The effective treatment, by the way, is to choose reality every time you are given a choice between fantasy and reality. The more you do it, the better you get at it, just like everything else.
Anyway, something to consider next time you think about whether or not to fund a Kickstarter. What are you putting your money up for? How much are you paying for pure fantasy: not the fantasy that the game might deliver, but the fantasy that the Kickstarter itself delivers? Not the fantasy of being the emperor of space or whatever, but the fantasy of playing a game about being the emperor of space? A delivered game with code and data that puts pretty pictures on your screen is still about 95-99% pure fantasy: like cotton candy. The only reason it works is because you are willing to go along with the fantasy. Kickstarter, Early Access, charging for betas... that's just part of the process of moving from 99% pure to 99.9%. Another small step on a path that's already very long and well trod. If you never get a product, were you totally cheated? Or did you get what you were actually paying for, and what you actually wanted: something that never existed and never will, regardless of whether or not you ever get some new software?
Post by: A Thing on January 28, 2016, 12:21:18 am
Post by: Darkmere on January 28, 2016, 01:57:56 am
Classy as hell.
Post by: Innsmothe on January 28, 2016, 02:19:20 am
-Stuff-
As a diagnosed Schizo, I find medication helps. Olanzapine has the least in the way of side effects I have had to suffer through and I even found myself a semi-steady job.
Post by: A Thing on January 28, 2016, 02:25:14 pm
So we're just mocking people with mental illness now?
Classy as hell.
Now rereading that, it is neither all that funny or that nice so I'll probably just edit it out.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 28, 2016, 09:34:25 pm
Post by: gimli on January 31, 2016, 10:30:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: TempAcc on February 02, 2016, 09:26:12 am
Well, sort of. The development seemed fine up to a point when Josh blamed the development woes on a AI bug, and then... Never commented about it again?
Hate to repeat this, but I do hope this doens't become another Cult.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 02, 2016, 10:13:51 am
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 10:21:40 am
Yep, saw it linked on the KDG forums, pretty hilariously ironic.
Well, sort of. The development seemed fine up to a point when Josh blamed the development woes on a AI bug, and then... Never commented about it again?
Hate to repeat this, but I do hope this doens't become another Cult.
Heh..yeah. :D Anyway...TWS is listed for a 2017 release @ Gamepressure. (http://games.gamepressure.com/game.asp?ID=16035&GID=24711)
/sarcasm on
They must know something... :D
/sarcasm off
Post by: TempAcc on February 02, 2016, 10:39:11 am
For the low, low price of your first-born child, you too can experience the joys of That Which Sleeps? That kind of cult?Actualy, a KS project done by an ex-bay12er that consisted of an open world roguelike-ish game with some really interesting mechanics. It was funded and then the developer just kind of disappeared after posting a video and a barebones soundtrack. Apparently the forum agreed to not talk about it again.
So uh, this weather huh? Anyway, ye, nobody has any concrete idea on when TWS is comming out. If its comming out.
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 02, 2016, 11:21:06 am
Yep, saw it linked on the KDG forums, pretty hilariously ironic.
Well, sort of. The development seemed fine up to a point when Josh blamed the development woes on a AI bug, and then... Never commented about it again?
Hate to repeat this, but I do hope this doens't become another Cult.
Honestly, I still don't think Josh is intentionally misleading anyone or is blaming anything unnecessarily. I suspect he just crashed face-first into the Pareto Principle, and now is in the long slog of actually wrapping up software.
Post by: lordcooper on February 02, 2016, 11:51:31 am
For the low, low price of your first-born child, you too can experience the joys of That Which Sleeps? That kind of cult?Actualy, a KS project done by an ex-bay12er that consisted of an open world roguelike-ish game with some really interesting mechanics. It was funded and then the developer just kind of disappeared after posting a video and a barebones soundtrack. Apparently the forum agreed to not talk about it again.
So uh, this weather huh? Anyway, ye, nobody has any concrete idea on when TWS is comming out. If its comming out.
Actually, the Cult dev was a class act. Really upfront, kept people in the loop most of the time, and issued refunds with interest.
(http://puu.sh/mTdM9/b19557ec4f.png)
I'm about 90% sure I didn't even request one.
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 11:58:40 am
Post by: Zangi on February 02, 2016, 12:42:57 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 03, 2016, 07:56:56 pm
Post by: Serenseven on February 03, 2016, 07:59:54 pm
I'm curious; how many people backed TWS, and then asked for a refund, but haven't received one?
The project isn't dead yet, so there is no obligation to refund.
Post by: Neonivek on February 03, 2016, 08:04:59 pm
The creator went out of his way to ensure that people got it.
So yeah the Cult guy was a class act all the way.
----
Honestly I just want this game done now so people will stop running around like the ship is sinking.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 03, 2016, 08:20:31 pm
and may I add that the general attitude towards cult is that most people who got the refund actually didn't want it. Mostly because they felt like he gave an honest attempt to make the game and that the money he would have to pay back was too much.I was one of the fairly high backers of cult and specifically told him not to refund me. He was extremely transparent about the whole thing and I have no hard feelings about it
The creator went out of his way to ensure that people got it.
So yeah the Cult guy was a class act all the way.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 03, 2016, 08:23:24 pm
I'm curious; how many people backed TWS, and then asked for a refund, but haven't received one?
The project isn't dead yet,
Or it is, and they just haven't admitted it yet.
Quote
so there is no obligation to refund.
I didn't ask if there was. I know they've given refunds to other backers. The question was, who has asked for a refund and not received one?
Post by: Mephansteras on February 03, 2016, 08:56:43 pm
and may I add that the general attitude towards cult is that most people who got the refund actually didn't want it. Mostly because they felt like he gave an honest attempt to make the game and that the money he would have to pay back was too much.I was one of the fairly high backers of cult and specifically told him not to refund me. He was extremely transparent about the whole thing and I have no hard feelings about it
The creator went out of his way to ensure that people got it.
So yeah the Cult guy was a class act all the way.
Same. Well, I was more of a mid-level backer, but still didn't care about a refund at all due to how he went about it all.
Post by: nenjin on February 04, 2016, 12:11:20 am
I'm curious; how many people backed TWS, and then asked for a refund, but haven't received one?
The project isn't dead yet,
Or it is, and they just haven't admitted it yet.
Bit premature on that. I'd give it to at least August before I'd start looking for a body.
Post by: A Thing on February 04, 2016, 01:48:53 am
I'd give it to at least August before I'd start looking for a body.
I don't know why, but this amuses me. Can I take this?
Post by: Majestic7 on February 04, 2016, 02:09:06 am
Post by: Ghazkull on February 15, 2016, 07:13:08 am
Post by: gimli on February 15, 2016, 09:51:04 am
Post by: Majestic7 on February 15, 2016, 03:05:11 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 16, 2016, 06:35:07 pm
Post by: nenjin on February 16, 2016, 06:42:13 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 16, 2016, 08:14:22 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 17, 2016, 11:09:29 am
Link to the post?
i believe it is on a blocked forum, but i found it elsewhere:
Quote from: Fenicks
Hi.
I haven't spent a lot of time on these boards lately because - as you know - we have not been giving or doing any updates. This is completely unacceptable and I'm embarrassed by the way communication has been handled. I don't feel like coming on every week and saying "Still no update" is helpful so I have shirked that responsibility to a degree. The last time we spoke was n the 10th and I was assured Josh is still working everyday and fully expects the game to be released and just needs "more time".
I got quite a few refund requests over the past week and I've been trying to figure out how to handle them. Here is where we are at:
We have a very small amount of funds leftover from the KS - they are currently being used in a very small capacity - an occasional asset purchase and to pay a few recurring costs such as adobe fees, storage, and a few other things. For all intents and purposes our Kickstarter dollars are accounted for.
So when it comes to refunds we've reached the point where we just can't really afford to do it - especially at the magnitude with which we got them requested.
If you purchased on Paypal:
You can charge back or request cancellation directly through Paypal.
If you backed us originally on Kickstarter at the Beta tier or above:
We don't have the ability to refund you now. If we come to the conclusion that the game can't or won't be released we'll start a system where we slooooowly start refunding everyone out of pocket. I didn't even think of the best way to do this but keep in mind that it would make me personally responsible for $30,000+ - so yes it would take us to a decade to pay everyone back - but we would figure out a way to start a lottery system or something. I would start with the highest tiers though so when no one gets money for 2 years thanks awesomeguys like Sean.
If you backed us on Kickstarter at the preorder tier:
I'm really sorry I can't envision us ever being able to come up with the remaining 60+ thousand dollars.
FULL DISCLAIMER - the game will be released, I don't plan on ever having to refund anyone, but I hope by hearing from me and having these terms and explanations laid out for you can put you all at rest.
Post by: gimli on February 17, 2016, 11:43:11 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 17, 2016, 11:44:06 am
Post by: Zangi on February 17, 2016, 11:47:48 am
(Prediction: Developers needs monies, find normal jobs to pay bills and refunds, that which sleeps regulated to hobby.)
>.>
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 17, 2016, 11:52:23 am
Yes, a company with one fixed, one-time cash influx, expenditures, and no income is going to run out of money. That's kinda a given, and it's not terribly surprising they don't have the liquidity to handle unexpected expenses (refunds). Software dev is a bit of a different beast in that work can still proceed without any money. Josh will need to find living funds elsewhere, but it sounds like he's been doing that the entire time, so that's nothing new.
So, yes, KDG doesn't have any money. But that doesn't have any bearing on whether work's happening or not because, like many software kickstarters, work's been happening independent of the company finances.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 17, 2016, 12:27:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 17, 2016, 01:07:37 pm
I get why the knee-jerk reaction to "we don't have much money" is to start worrying, but really, this shouldn't surprise anyone.It's more the fact that the beta backers section, which is the biggest of them, is all "here's what we will do if the game is never completed".
Yes, a company with one fixed, one-time cash influx, expenditures, and no income is going to run out of money. That's kinda a given, and it's not terribly surprising they don't have the liquidity to handle unexpected expenses (refunds). Software dev is a bit of a different beast in that work can still proceed without any money. Josh will need to find living funds elsewhere, but it sounds like he's been doing that the entire time, so that's nothing new.
So, yes, KDG doesn't have any money. But that doesn't have any bearing on whether work's happening or not because, like many software kickstarters, work's been happening independent of the company finances.
The kickstarter was mostly to get funds to hire artists afaik, which is something it's already done; the game has pretty pictures now, and just requires programing, which is something that a determined programmer can do without much funding.The determination of the coder is one of those things that's been questioned.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 17, 2016, 01:12:20 pm
Post by: Xantalos on February 17, 2016, 03:29:31 pm
Josh! Stay determined!Dammit Egan don't try to distract Josh with Undertale
Post by: TempAcc on February 17, 2016, 03:39:45 pm
Jokes aside, thats exactly the point. Even if the main dev/coder is having lots of troubles with the game, if he just had kept regular contact with the community, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have nearly as many refund requests to deal with. The community has repeately said they would be ok with waiting more if Josh actualy told them what the hell is happening. Instead he just kind of went poof from the internet for extended periods of time and now pretty much everyone is questioning just how determined he is about the project.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 17, 2016, 03:59:05 pm
I think it is the same kind of trouble GRRM might have finishing his next book.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 17, 2016, 04:02:50 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on February 17, 2016, 04:12:56 pm
You'd think they'd rectify the situation with an update of some kind: an image, an inkling of what has happened over the last few months, anything...
I am also pretty sure (while not a lawyer) that you cannot decide not to refund 60,000$ of pre-purchases without getting sued, or pass the buck to paypal (again, without getting really, really sued) if the game never materializes
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 17, 2016, 04:40:33 pm
Post by: Sergarr on February 17, 2016, 05:56:05 pm
The determination of the coder is one of those things that's been questioned.I reckon it's less about "determination" and more about "general programming know-how"; his AI bug, for example, is a good example of bad programming practices. Recursive function calls in situations where existence of a stable solution is not guaranteed, and without any random component to smooth it out? It's one of those things that first-timer programmers tend to do, because it sure does "look beautiful" (I know because I remember doing something like that when I was new);
If he was more experienced and thus started to work from already existing architectures (of which there are many), which incidentally never use recursion, he at the very least would not have had that problem, which would've accelerated his game development by 1-2 weeks - and that's only on that one problem. He undoubtedly have had many more, of which he hasn't told us, and of them, there were probably many that could've been avoided, saving literally months of coding time.
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 17, 2016, 06:20:45 pm
But I tried to dig up his comments, and decided it really wasn't worth my time... those update topics on the official forum are trainwrecks - nothing more. So take what I remember with a grain of salt.
Post by: Serenseven on February 17, 2016, 06:21:19 pm
The version of the AI issues that was presented here was an oversimplification of the already oversimplified version that I presented to the official forum. You have to remember that I was faced with the problem of how to make advanced programming issues intelligible to an audience who mostly have never touched a line of code in their lives, and also that I'm not a Unity programmer. So I'm trying to take a couple paragraphs of highly technical information about a programming environment with which I am not familiar, and explain it to complete novices. Necessarily, I simplified a bit, and went for more of a general analogy rather than trying to present a code-accurate version of the problem.
A backer took that explanation and posted a condensed version on the public section of the official forum, which in turn was abbreviated further when it got quoted here. By that point, it was in the form of a simple recursion problem any freshman computer science student should handle with ease. The original was (and maybe still is, for I'm not sure it's been 100% fixed) far more difficult, involving multiple simultaneously-called objects not handling their data properly when called through particular interfaces - in other words, some sort of thread safety issue. Multithreading with shared resources can be a pain in the arse even for experienced developers.
TL/DR: While there may be any number of valid reasons to question Josh's competence, determination, or whatever at this point, the AI issue - as presented here - is not one of them.
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 17, 2016, 06:26:27 pm
I did find the post I was thinking of, but it has a big, fat *DO NOT SHARE* title on it so... hopefully my one-sentence summary isn't too much sharing.
For those able to access the backer forums, it's in the Dec 8th topic, page 4. If you're not afraid to manually edit URLs, it's f=4, t=395, p=16376.
Post by: Sergarr on February 17, 2016, 06:50:40 pm
There's a good term for multi-threading problems, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition.
Also I must question this statement:
TL/DR: While there may be any number of valid reasons to question Josh's competence, determination, or whatever at this point, the AI issue - as presented here - is not one of them., because it sounds like he did not properly separate AI from the main game engine itself, which gave rise to the thread conflicts and such.
Unless TWS AI somehow requires more than 1 core to process, he could've put all AI parts into a single thread separate from the main game engine, and make it either run immediately after the main game engine process, with AI output being utilized for next game engine tick, or concurrently, but with a delay in inputs (i.e. gameworld is processing tick 30, while AI output is being calculated from a frozen gameworld "image" at tick 29).
I shall note that this kind of architecture (game engine separate from AI) is suggested as significantly more preferable in Game AI literature sources that I've read, precisely because other people have run into these kinds of issues, too.
Post by: jhxmt on February 17, 2016, 06:55:12 pm
We can theorise and worry and murmur about the putative AI issue all day long, but without knowing the details it's not something I'm going to get particularly concerned about. I'm not interpreting any of the messages thus far as particularly negative. Yeah, there's been a lack of positive communication. I'm okay with that. I can understand why others wouldn't be. At the end of the day, I take the view that it's more important for the coder to be coding than for the coder to be letting people know that he's coding. Again, I appreciate others' mileage may vary on that.
Post by: Serenseven on February 17, 2016, 07:55:11 pm
Unless TWS AI somehow requires more than 1 core to process, he could've put all AI parts into a single thread separate from the main game engine, and make it either run immediately after the main game engine process, with AI output being utilized for next game engine tick, or concurrently, but with a delay in inputs (i.e. gameworld is processing tick 30, while AI output is being calculated from a frozen gameworld "image" at tick 29).
I shall note that this kind of architecture (game engine separate from AI) is suggested as significantly more preferable in Game AI literature sources that I've read, precisely because other people have run into these kinds of issues, too.
There are multiple entities (several hundred to a thousand or more, depending on the map size) that have AI to process each turn, and they have their own dedicated thread pool that they run in separate from the UI threads and the engine threads. The AI threads actually run continuously; during the player's turn they evaluate entities that the player hasn't interacted with recently and precalculate those entities' responses for the next AI turn as an optimization to reduce the player's wait time between turns.
Post by: sirvente on February 17, 2016, 09:33:16 pm
Post by: Serenseven on February 17, 2016, 09:58:21 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 17, 2016, 10:07:39 pm
I am also pretty sure (while not a lawyer) that you cannot decide not to refund 60,000$ of pre-purchases without getting suedLegally, the kickstarter goals are not pre-purchases but donations, and there is no legal obligation to refund at all.
I'm no programmer but that seems weird as hell, wouldn't that cause the ai to behave different based solely on how long you take to end your turn?The usual solution - that being the one used by Stardock, who pioneered this method in GalCiv2 - is to just make the time between turns take longer if it needs to.
Post by: Neonivek on February 17, 2016, 10:29:11 pm
No. Kickstarter isn't donation it is funding. There is a legal obligation to refund.
Kickstarter isn't a Charity (though certainly you CAN do charity through Kickstarter). You are asking people to "fund" your work. You have every obligation to ensure that they receive said product.
It isn't a pre-purchase either.
Post by: Cruxador on February 17, 2016, 11:31:03 pm
There is a legal obligation to refund.Only if it can be proved that a good-faith effort at success was not made. Which isn't possible except in the most drastic outright scam cases.
Post by: Darkmere on February 17, 2016, 11:32:28 pm
No. Kickstarter isn't donation it is funding. There is a legal obligation to refund.
I need a source for this. All KS says is that developers should include refunds to people who have not received their reward, based on amount of cash remaining and the amount pledged. They're very careful about pointing out they have nothing at all to do with anything between backers and developers.
Post by: Karlito on February 17, 2016, 11:53:22 pm
Quote
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form. [emphasis mine]
Post by: i2amroy on February 18, 2016, 12:57:52 am
TL/DR: While there may be any number of valid reasons to question Josh's competence, determination, or whatever at this point, the AI issue - as presented here - is not one of them.I'd like to iterate again that as both a backer (so having read the posts on the official forum) and as a Computer Science guy that the very fact that he even managed to figure out what the problems are is a huge good thing in his favor. The type of problems that he was running into are some of the most impossible ones to debug, and I've seen professional programmers with years of experience under their belt brought down by lesser bug in the same category before. The problem he has run into is a tough one, and the steps that he appears to be taking to solve it certainly appear reasonable in my experience.
His decision to go totally silent? That might be something you could get him on, but the aforementioned AI issue is definitely not a thing to do so with.
And as for "refunds"? Honestly I've backed both Shantae: Half-genie Hero and Mighty No. 9 almost an entire year before I backed TWS, both of which are being worked on by dedicated teams of people all of whom had large amounts of experience in the worlds of game development, and you know what? Neither has yet to come out officially. I've still got at least another year or so of waiting before I even start to worry about a potential refund. :P
Post by: nenjin on February 18, 2016, 01:01:37 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 18, 2016, 02:32:22 am
Post by: i2amroy on February 18, 2016, 02:52:48 am
"Other development is worse" isn't really an argument in anyone's favor.No, it's an argument that unrealistic expectations for a semi-amateur tiny team are unrealistic. It's like demanding that a college basketball player try and throw a 95% season free throw ratio when the top professional players are only throwing in 92% range. If professional groups of software engineers with combined decades of game development under their belt are taking twice as long as TWS has before they have anything to show for it than I'm not going to expect a small handfull of people on their first real large scale software project to do better than that.
This is not to say that the lack of communication is good, simply that I'd give them plenty of more time before I'd start to demand a refund.
Post by: Neonivek on February 18, 2016, 03:11:39 am
It is far more typical for nothing to be said unless they are doing a "Endless Alpha" style. Which is definitely not what TWS is trying to do.
Any game that doesn't really focus on constant alphas will always leave news for months or even a year between.
Divinity Original Sin 2: Three months between updates... Of which all the updates are not game related (so 9 months without any real news)
Battletech: Three months, no gameplay update
What are these kickstarters people are part of that update so constantly that aren't... well... not very good. Starbound? Are we going to base the quality of TWS on how Starbound is being developed?
The people who trolled the entire fanbase and then banned them if they responded to it? The development team that jumped ship?
Ok... How long has it REALLY been since the last update in TWS. Hit me. It says November but apparently it updated more recently.
Post by: Serenseven on February 18, 2016, 08:10:07 am
Last development update from the actual developer: December 21
Last development update through me as communications liaison: January 9
The quoted post from Fenicks on the unavailability of refunds: February 16
Taking January 9 as the date communication with Josh was lost, the lines have been dead for 40 days.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 18, 2016, 08:36:11 am
Post by: ndkid on February 18, 2016, 09:03:40 am
For this metaphor to work, it'd require that every college recruit boast about how they're going to have a 95% fee throw percentage, and when they actually end up shooting about 50% from the line, they stop showing up to practice and stop doing press interviews."Other development is worse" isn't really an argument in anyone's favor.No, it's an argument that unrealistic expectations for a semi-amateur tiny team are unrealistic. It's like demanding that a college basketball player try and throw a 95% season free throw ratio when the top professional players are only throwing in 92% range. If professional groups of software engineers with combined decades of game development under their belt are taking twice as long as TWS has before they have anything to show for it than I'm not going to expect a small handfull of people on their first real large scale software project to do better than that.
This is not to say that the lack of communication is good, simply that I'd give them plenty of more time before I'd start to demand a refund.
There are some semi-amateur teams that are good at scaling, doing consistent releases, and having consistent communication. Some of them can't handle interacting with people once even every few months.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 18, 2016, 09:43:33 am
40 Days isn't that long. Guys need to chillax.
If you vanish and don't give a single text, phone, sms, paper or other message as to why, would you like people to wait 40 days for your bloated corpse to show up or get curious after 2 weeks? Clearly, I'm playing it up to prove a point, but there really is a shameful lack of communication.
Anyway, I'm worried that our dev is stuck in a desire for perfection, previous videos and development posts have shown that he wants to really statisfy the public when he releases something - at the cost of time.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 18, 2016, 09:51:20 am
40 Days isn't that long. Guys need to chillax.
Consistent communication would go a long way towards managing the doom and gloom some people seem to be having. "Still working on that bug" every two weeks or whatever, and I'd be happy. Or maybe I'm just spoiled by Toady. No matter how long it takes between versions, no-one ever asks if DF is dead.
Post by: TempAcc on February 18, 2016, 10:19:24 am
Now lets consider things within the context of TWS. Josh was doing somewhat regular updates on the project, warning people about delays and throwing out videos and screenshots once in a while. Even if there were multiple delays regarding the posting of videos and stuff, people were still ok with it, since he was still communicating with the community. Then he suddenly kind of disappears for more then a month, and the interval between any info becomes several times longer then it used to be, to the point the community have to seek the help of people other then Josh to actualy get an idea of whats going on in the development.
Its completely justifiable that the community went all doom and gloom and started asking for refunds after all of this. Communication today is incredibly important to keep interest in game development projects, and even more so for kickstarter-born projects. Look at the Pillars of Infinity guys, they made sure to release regular updates and videos regarding the project to keep people interested. Even when they basically had nothing to report, the devs would still entertain the community with stuff like lore and answering backer questions.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 18, 2016, 10:22:50 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 18, 2016, 10:34:16 am
Even if there were multiple delays regarding the posting of videos and stuff, people were still ok with it, since he was still communicating with the community.
That's not really accurate. The first one or two deadlines that got missed were brushed off, but past that people were doing everything but literally calling for Josh's head. It got bad. I suspect that's partly why Josh doesn't look at the forums anymore.
I generally agree with everyone else that communication would go a long way towards helping people not overreact, though.
Post by: Zangi on February 18, 2016, 10:50:00 am
Post by: TempAcc on February 18, 2016, 10:56:23 am
The worst thing That Which Sleeps has done is give itself deadlines... multiple times. Missing all of em.
Pretty much this. Going poof from the internet after this is like throwing cups of cold water into a waning flame you're trying to keep alive.
Post by: gimli on February 18, 2016, 10:58:47 am
Communication today is incredibly important to keep interest in game development projects, and even more so for kickstarter-born projects.
Even if the main dev/coder is having lots of troubles with the game, if he just had kept regular contact with the community, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have nearly as many refund requests to deal with.
The worst thing That Which Sleeps has done is give itself deadlines... multiple times. Missing all of em.
3x +1
Post by: Cruxador on February 18, 2016, 02:03:37 pm
Perhaps the problem is that the top professional players don't actually need to be on kickstarter in the first place. Besides amateurs, people making video game kickstarters are failures, the "professionals" that people in the profession don't really want to work with, whether it be due to incompetence, dickishness, mismanagement, or some combination thereof. The notable exceptions to this are Wasteland 2 and now Bloodstained, where a professional dev fell out of favor for other reasons but was still able to get their act together, and people like Obsidian or Hairbrained Schemes, where they actually don't really need a kickstarter to succeed but used one to increase the scope of a game they could have made anyway."Other development is worse" isn't really an argument in anyone's favor.No, it's an argument that unrealistic expectations for a semi-amateur tiny team are unrealistic. It's like demanding that a college basketball player try and throw a 95% season free throw ratio when the top professional players are only throwing in 92% range. If professional groups of software engineers with combined decades of game development under their belt are taking twice as long as TWS has before they have anything to show for it than I'm not going to expect a small handful of people on their first real large scale software project to do better than that.
What are these kickstarters people are part of that update so constantly that aren't... well... not very good.Generally, they aren't video games. The first one that comes to mind is CodeSpells, and that's more of a teaching tool than a game you play for fun alone; it has a different developer mindset behind it. Even something like Sui Generis is pretty good, because although updates aren't super frequent, each one is substantial and they threw together Exanima to give people a shot at what they're working on.
Now, there's two other things besides kickstarter video games we can compare to for the sake of context, so let's look at both. First up, Kickstarter non-video games. FATE core is the big name from a while back, massively successful, it gave you the base digital product for a single dollar, and has had updates consistently ever since the kickstarter despite all the initially funded material shipping literally years ago at this point. Exalted is seeing substantial slowdown (much like a typical video game kickstarter) so we won't have heard anything about it, right? But that's wrong! It has monthly updates, each one with bits of content from the backers, showing what auxiliary content is complete (or mostly so) and what state the stuff from the main body of work is in. Hell, Song of Swords hasn't even launched their kickstarter yet, and yet anyone can go to their discussion threads and download the latest draft and ask the dev questions which will get answered.
But those games have smaller scope, one might say. So let's look at video games using other models wherein someone pays money before the game is available. The classic is the pre-purchase setup; generally this option is only made available a short time before the game is actually released, and in that time period, news is abundant. We also see the "early access" paradigm, so what do update feeds like that look like? Well, they tend to hold themselves to a minimum of one substantive update per month. Examples here would include Clockwork Empires and Subnautica.
40 Days isn't that long. Guys need to chillax.If we got a substantial update every 40 days, that would be reasonable. This is "the last record we have of the dev existing is 40 days old". This is a dev that planned a quick series of YouTube videos, missed deadlines on the first one, missed extended deadlines on the second, and didn't release anything gameplay-related since.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on February 18, 2016, 03:22:02 pm
It is also his first game project, and game development is quite challenging compared to most other software development projects - I know there are exceptions, and medical tech, aerospace and several other industries have some extremely advanced software engineering going on. But most people underestimate how difficult game programming is.
So even if it sounds weird: unexpected delays are to be expected. Now I do think there are some areas Josh and the other guy (who seems to have been active only during the founding phase?) could have done better:
- Reducing the frequency and depth of communication with the community will cause a backlash. Indie devs that do not have a full-time community manager need to be careful with the expectations they set. It might be unreasonable, but sudden radio silence will make some backers/fans nervous. A few will even feel betrayed, as the interaction with the developers is part of the "package" to these people, maybe even more important than the actual game. If a developer needs to dial down community presence, for productivity or morale reasons, the resulting backlash can be very hard to deal with psychologically.
- Be extremely careful about over-promising during crowdfunding. It was a bad call to state that the game was finished, and just needed graphical assets. Especially with stretch goals that change the scope of the project. Everyone who has ever worked with software development knows that estimating remaining work for anything but routine stuff is seriously difficult. As my first boss told me: "Once you have done 90% of a project, there is another 90% of a similar size to be done. Don't ever think you are done before you actually are."
- If you set an interim deadline for a crowdfunded project, and you can't deliver - deliver something else. Alpha isn't ready? Make a development diary or gameplay video? Beta isn't ready? Make an alpha build for the top backers. Stream a testing session. Show off some newly integrated assets.
Personally, when I participate in crowdfunding as a backer, I expect and hope the project succeeds to some degree. I may be extremely skeptical or completely confident in the ability of the team to deliver, but I never put in more money than I am prepared to lose. Because the risk that project fails, is always there. Most teams will over-promise on features and/or be too optimistic on deadlines. That's to be expected.
The best games are made by visionaries and dreamers. They are storytellers and idealists, and almost invariably bad at planning, realism, etc. They can sometimes be so passionate about their projects, that the line blurs between what is mental construct and a physical reality. Peter Molyneux is a good example - he has created some amazing games, but he has also passed off some serious pipe dreams as features in his games.
These people work best with other people to anchor them, to focus their insane creative energy and to shield them, and their fans, from disappointment. Now, I don't know if Josh is such a person, but I suspect it. For such a person the psychological pressure of having to present a game, that might not have every feature he has promised and described so vividly, even if it is a beta, and he still has time to add stuff, would be immense. I don't know how far he is with his game, but the fact that people are asking for refunds, drumming up negativity or outright attacking him, is certainly not helping him progress with the actual development.
I hope he is making good progress despite everything, because I would really, really, love to play the game. I've reached out to him on the TWS forums and offered to help out with sparring and advice on technical issues, if there are any such blocking him.
Post by: i2amroy on February 18, 2016, 03:28:33 pm
Or maybe they're like the Mighty No. 9 team and are essentially creating a new company specifically for a particular product and need start up capital. Seriously, that team is filled with people like Keiji Inafune (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiji_Inafune), the professionals on Kickstarter that I'm talking about here are not "failures", they're people and companies with tons of experience making games, and they still take longer than we've waited for this to produce something solid. Heck, even now Mighty No. 9 only recently released (yet another) "the project is going to be delayed" message a few months back to their backers.
You want to criticize the lack of communication? Go right ahead, and I agree with you that the lack of it has been a major problem. But don't criticize the rookies for the lack of something concrete after such a short amount of time, and don't criticize new people in the industry for making mistakes that even advanced professionals do fairly regularly (though you could criticize them a bit for their arrogance in believing it wouldn't happen to them if you wanted to).
I'll reiterate, my problem isn't with the people who are calling for communication (because I agree that that is a problem), my problem is with the people calling for mass refunds because the 1 man programming team hasn't managed to produce something concrete in half the time it took a group of professional software engineers to do so.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on February 18, 2016, 03:56:45 pm
I'll reiterate, my problem isn't with the people who are calling for communication (because I agree that that is a problem), my problem is with the people calling for mass refunds because the 1 man programming team hasn't managed to produce something concrete in half the time it took a group of professional software engineers to do so.
I think part of the issue is that developer silence is exactly what is causing people to jump ship: as we already mentioned by another person on this forum, Toady maintained player interest through long development stretches through the occasional tantalizing hint or interesting bug. He also released a build of the game, though. A working build at that, if occasionally buggy.
This too should be considered as a solution to the complicated one man game: Toady, and back with Cataclysm, Whales (before he abandoned the project to the community) opened themselves to the community for patient bug testing, fixes, suggestions, mods etc. The games grew from this in response.
When the developer goes silent and has never so much as released a buggy and broken build, in the age of numerous broken alphas which sell on the open market, people will rightfully get suspicious that the whole game will just never materialize.
I am not clammoring for a refund (didn't kickstart, bought it last may) yet, but if you sell a product, you really cannot back out of it and expect people not to hold you responsible.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 18, 2016, 04:09:56 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 18, 2016, 04:28:43 pm
I think the best think for him tondo would be to.just realise the beta, even if it does randomly crash a bit.I don't think that would be a good idea personally but what do I know
Post by: Sergarr on February 18, 2016, 05:19:49 pm
Post by: Neonivek on February 18, 2016, 05:53:58 pm
Everyone please remember this is not a small team/semi-amateur studio/etc. It is a one-man show.
You know what is weird? It is the exact opposite situation
IF he was a professional studio NO ONE would question his silence for 40 days. They wouldn't question his silence for 6 months. I am sure a year could pass without a single news story and people would sit in their seats.
It is because he is a one-man show that they demand so much of his constant attention.
Post by: ndkid on February 18, 2016, 06:00:05 pm
If a major studio kept communicating times that demos/betas/information would be out on X date, and X date passes, and major studio says nothing, and then continues to say nothing for 40 days, you seriously think nobody would be up in arms?Everyone please remember this is not a small team/semi-amateur studio/etc. It is a one-man show.
You know what is weird? It is the exact opposite situation
IF he was a professional studio NO ONE would question his silence for 40 days. They wouldn't question his silence for 6 months. I am sure a year could pass without a single news story and people would sit in their seats.
It is because he is a one-man show that they demand so much of his constant attention.
If the major studio just says "we're going to go make this game", no release date, whatever, great, sure, they get months of radio silence, no big deal. That's also true of a great many Kickstarter campaigns... I can think of a solid half-dozen that are really, *REALLY* slow to show anything, and there isn't a big negative push against them.
But when you keep promising things, keep missing them, and then go into a deep radio silence, you're going to get pushback, regardless of size.
Post by: Neonivek on February 18, 2016, 06:10:16 pm
If a major studio kept communicating times that demos/betas/information would be out on X date, and X date passes, and major studio says nothing, and then continues to say nothing for 40 days, you seriously think nobody would be up in arms?
Experience tells me no.
Post by: nenjin on February 18, 2016, 06:23:13 pm
If a major studio kept communicating times that demos/betas/information would be out on X date, and X date passes, and major studio says nothing, and then continues to say nothing for 40 days, you seriously think nobody would be up in arms?
Experience tells me no.
Experience tells me you're wrong. As if XCOM2 missing its release date and going radio silent for 40 days wouldn't have caused the internet to collectively lose their shit. How many years have people been making Half Life 3 jokes despite it never even officially existing?
Post by: Neonivek on February 18, 2016, 07:00:39 pm
If a major studio kept communicating times that demos/betas/information would be out on X date, and X date passes, and major studio says nothing, and then continues to say nothing for 40 days, you seriously think nobody would be up in arms?
Experience tells me no.
Experience tells me you're wrong. As if XCOM2 missing its release date and going radio silent for 40 days wouldn't have caused the internet to collectively lose their shit. How many years have people been making Half Life 3 jokes despite it never even officially existing?
To be honest I didn't even notice.
Post by: Cruxador on February 19, 2016, 02:06:00 am
@CruxadorMighty No. 9 is criticized quite harshly. The only thing saving it from more criticism at this point is that, after the last two delays on top of the character design debacle, many people have already written it off. Also, if Keiji Inafune wasn't a failure in some respect there would have been little reason for him to leave Comcast. While we can't know the real details, his record reads as more of a "right place, right time" than a business wizard.
Or maybe they're like the Mighty No. 9 team and are essentially creating a new company specifically for a particular product and need start up capital. Seriously, that team is filled with people like Keiji Inafune (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiji_Inafune), the professionals on Kickstarter that I'm talking about here are not "failures", they're people and companies with tons of experience making games, and they still take longer than we've waited for this to produce something solid. Heck, even now Mighty No. 9 only recently released (yet another) "the project is going to be delayed" message a few months back to their backers.
Post by: i2amroy on February 19, 2016, 03:13:29 am
So 1 of my examples is disputed. The point still holds with other the other ones such as Wayforward Studios and Shantae (which is an actual operating gaming company), and I can dig up plenty more examples if you really want to see them.@CruxadorMighty No. 9 is criticized quite harshly. The only thing saving it from more criticism at this point is that, after the last two delays on top of the character design debacle, many people have already written it off. Also, if Keiji Inafune wasn't a failure in some respect there would have been little reason for him to leave Comcast. While we can't know the real details, his record reads as more of a "right place, right time" than a business wizard.
Or maybe they're like the Mighty No. 9 team and are essentially creating a new company specifically for a particular product and need start up capital. Seriously, that team is filled with people like Keiji Inafune (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiji_Inafune), the professionals on Kickstarter that I'm talking about here are not "failures", they're people and companies with tons of experience making games, and they still take longer than we've waited for this to produce something solid. Heck, even now Mighty No. 9 only recently released (yet another) "the project is going to be delayed" message a few months back to their backers.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 19, 2016, 09:27:53 am
Counterexample: dwarf fortress.I think the best think for him tondo would be to.just realise the beta, even if it does randomly crash a bit.I don't think that would be a good idea personally but what do I know
So yes. If the dev just put up what he had in its entirety, right now, regardless of bugs, maybe there wouldn't have to be all of this irritation and worry about him not communicating/working(?)/whatnot.
Post by: lordcooper on February 19, 2016, 09:55:31 am
Counterexample: dwarf fortress.I think the best think for him tondo would be to.just realise the beta, even if it does randomly crash a bit.I don't think that would be a good idea personally but what do I know
So yes. If the dev just put up what he had in its entirety, right now, regardless of bugs, maybe there wouldn't have to be all of this irritation and worry about him not communicating/working(?)/whatnot.
Honestly, I think he's left it too late and dug too big a hole for that. A broken initial release would have been fine a few months ago if presented as such, but is likely to be taken a lot more critically after the disappointment of many missed deadlines then radio silence. The vastly decreased goodwill and negative bias that a lot of us have by now makes it more likely that people will focus on the problems rather than the potential, and react as such.
Toady gets away with putting out buggy releases because, well, people kinda love him, and for good reason. He keeps us in the loop to an almost ridiculous extent, provides the game for free (although I've easily spent more on this game than any other and believe this is the case for a lot of people), is regarded as something of a gifted eccentric/auteur for even attempting a game of this scope let alone succeeding, has proven himself ludicrously dedicated to the project, works at a baffling pace and as far as I can remember has never broken a promise to his supporters. The dude has earned a virtually unlimited amount of goodwill. The same really can't be said for KDG, in fact the exact opposite of most of those statements would be true. I have a vague hope they know they're doing but are just really shit at project management and customer service. I think that's about as much enthusiasm as can be justified at this point.
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2016, 10:44:30 am
Counterexample: dwarf fortress.I think the best think for him tondo would be to.just realise the beta, even if it does randomly crash a bit.I don't think that would be a good idea personally but what do I know
So yes. If the dev just put up what he had in its entirety, right now, regardless of bugs, maybe there wouldn't have to be all of this irritation and worry about him not communicating/working(?)/whatnot.
It's not a bad idea. Do you remember Stardock's EWoM? I was beta testing it. Lots of testers -including myself- warned SD countless times because of the bad design decisions / huge amounts bugs & CTDs. Wardell was like "I don't give a shit" after a period and decided to release the game to the public. I still remember that I reported more than 10+ CTDs. Some of those CTDs were not fixed for v1.0. Yeah...wtf? Heh.
Needless to say, EWoM's v1.0 release was disastrous. Tons of people couldn't even play the game because it was CTDing like crazy.
So, releasing the TWS beta with proper CTD logging could help a lot to Josh. [...but again, I am not even sure that the beta or the game itself will ever be released..so my post was a "side note".]
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2016, 10:52:19 am
Post by: TempAcc on February 19, 2016, 11:09:24 am
The best thing that could be done atm is Josh breaking his silence, explaining why it happened and where the project is right now, admitting he shouldn't have set up deadlines he wouldn't be able to fulfill, make an apology and keep people posted on the developmental progress.
Post by: Zangi on February 19, 2016, 12:00:27 pm
Many of our brethren have hung up their cloaks and I know many gathered here are also contemplating doing the same, but all I can ask of you is to keep the faith.
That Which Sleeps will awaken, the time may not be now, but that day is coming... and I will be there to welcome it.
Signed,
Random Cultist
(More likely I'll be distracted with other stuff.)
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2016, 12:04:44 pm
The best thing that could be done atm is Josh breaking his silence, explaining why it happened and where the project is right now, admitting he shouldn't have set up deadlines he wouldn't be able to fulfill, make an apology and keep people posted on the developmental progress.
Eh well, he will be pretty much forced to do that after he pushed dat "communication button" again. It's logical isn't it? [Let's hope that the button is not missing from his keyboard.]
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2016, 12:30:49 pm
Post by: gimli on February 19, 2016, 12:54:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on February 19, 2016, 12:57:56 pm
So 1 of my examples is disputed. The point still holds with other the other ones such as Wayforward Studios and Shantae (which is an actual operating gaming company), and I can dig up plenty more examples if you really want to see them.One of your examples is utterly terrible to illustrate what you wanted to say, the other one I'm only passingly familiar with, but looking into it, I think it falls into the "could have made the game anyway" category. I notice you haven't addressed any of the examples I mentioned.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 19, 2016, 03:53:21 pm
Post by: Zangi on February 19, 2016, 04:46:34 pm
Post by: i2amroy on February 19, 2016, 05:49:26 pm
I said "Disputed" for a reason regarding M.No.9, because personally where I've been people has been, if not ecstatic about it, at least willing to accept it (and the people that are making it) as neutral successes (not necessarily outstanding ones, but at least ones that are classifiable that way). And whether or not they "could have made the game anyways" has absolutely nothing to do with the speed in which a professional team can create a working product vs a one-man team formed by semi-amateurs on their first real project, which is the only thing I've been focusing on this whole time.So 1 of my examples is disputed. The point still holds with other the other ones such as Wayforward Studios and Shantae (which is an actual operating gaming company), and I can dig up plenty more examples if you really want to see them.One of your examples is utterly terrible to illustrate what you wanted to say, the other one I'm only passingly familiar with, but looking into it, I think it falls into the "could have made the game anyway" category. I notice you haven't addressed any of the examples I mentioned.
Again I will reiterate. I agree with you on the communication aspect, they really should be communicating. Yes, I agree that their estimates were bad, which is to be expected with a team that hasn't done anything of this scale before professionally. What I don't agree with is that it appears you are demanding that somehow a one-man coding team working on his group's first real public project should be able to produce something actually playable in 1/2-2/3rds of the time that a professional team of several people that has done several similar projects before can produce something. If that's a misunderstanding and you aren't actually arguing for that then please come out and say so straight, because so far it seems that that's what you've been claiming TWS should be able to do; and unless you know something that the rest of us don't know it seems to be a pretty farfetched claim that a single person will be able to do that in that time scale.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 20, 2016, 10:50:43 am
Post by: Zangi on February 20, 2016, 10:52:55 am
I just hope it won't end like the break for the dude from http://www.goblinscomic.org/Its not a final end though.
Post by: Xantalos on February 20, 2016, 12:48:16 pm
I just hope it won't end like the break for the dude from http://www.goblinscomic.org/But Thunt's still updating as far as I know.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 20, 2016, 11:23:44 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 21, 2016, 06:33:13 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 21, 2016, 08:20:26 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 21, 2016, 03:40:49 pm
Come on man, Josh isn't that big a nutbar.That we know of.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 21, 2016, 03:59:02 pm
Sorry for being unclear, thunt (guy from goblins) just went silent for several months, then some minor posts and the entire thing (and goblinscomic isn't the smallest of webcomics) was just out of order for a long time, basically some sort of stress-ptsd.
He was too SAD
Post by: Zangi on February 21, 2016, 06:55:13 pm
Isn't it cause someone ran with the money or something? I don't remember. I only found out about it when people started making noises over it coming back in the lower forum.Sorry for being unclear, thunt (guy from goblins) just went silent for several months, then some minor posts and the entire thing (and goblinscomic isn't the smallest of webcomics) was just out of order for a long time, basically some sort of stress-ptsd.
He was too SAD
Post by: Cruxador on February 22, 2016, 02:48:30 am
Isn't it cause someone ran with the money or something?I imagine there's multiple reasons, but the big one I heard is that he had a big melt down because people on the internet called him sexist.
Post by: Neonivek on February 22, 2016, 04:06:18 am
Isn't it cause someone ran with the money or something?I imagine there's multiple reasons, but the big one I heard is that he had a big melt down because people on the internet called him sexist.
He should remember that "Everything is sexist on the internet", to actually have the courage to put things out on the internet you have to let go of the fear that someone will see what you do as sexist because... well... they always will.
Heck I can think of a few people (well one person) who if you took everything they said seriously, you would have to conclude that everything is sexist.
Right now it is just the way you troll things is to call them sexist.
Post by: Xantalos on February 22, 2016, 04:20:21 am
Eh? While I admit I haven't been keeping too close a track on Goblins in the last while, I recall him explaining that basically he had a series of breakdowns because he got too obsessed with the quality of his work and (ironically enough, considering the discussion in this thread) meeting update deadlines since he kept missing them and the excessive amount of stress he put on himself because of this - and other reasons that I can't recall, this is just the basic form of what I can remember - put him out of commission for a while.Isn't it cause someone ran with the money or something?I imagine there's multiple reasons, but the big one I heard is that he had a big melt down because people on the internet called him sexist.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 22, 2016, 05:09:07 am
Post by: Xantalos on February 22, 2016, 05:14:28 am
Post by: Hanzoku on February 22, 2016, 07:44:02 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on February 22, 2016, 08:17:51 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 22, 2016, 09:59:23 am
What the title should be.
Post by: Neonivek on February 22, 2016, 10:01:52 am
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
What the title should be.
I like it
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2016, 11:13:52 am
Post by: Neonivek on February 22, 2016, 11:14:33 am
does not meet standards for neutrality
I thought it was good because it could be a tongue and cheek way of referencing it... and possibly end the fighting.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 22, 2016, 08:53:51 pm
Sleeping. Dozing off, maybe?does not meet standards for neutrality
I thought it was good because it could be a tongue and cheek way of referencing it... and possibly end the fighting.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 24, 2016, 04:41:01 am
Post by: gimli on February 28, 2016, 01:23:49 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 28, 2016, 05:29:22 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2016, 05:40:36 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 28, 2016, 05:41:24 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2016, 05:45:12 pm
Post by: Neonivek on February 28, 2016, 07:30:04 pm
*is melted*
Post by: ventuswings on February 28, 2016, 07:36:04 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2016, 08:05:34 pm
No, the optimism and hope! it burns!!! I'm burning... burning... burning...Major... I'm burning up!
*is melted*
Post by: Puzzlemaker on March 12, 2016, 10:24:53 am
Post by: Sergarr on March 12, 2016, 10:56:11 am
Looking up on the TWS forums, it appears that the status is still at "no discernable life signs" stage.
I have no idea what the hell is happening, but it can't be good.
Post by: sjm9876 on March 12, 2016, 11:38:15 am
http://imgur.com/a/ODTGk (http://imgur.com/a/ODTGk)
I won't repost from the KDG forums, given that's ended poorly before, but just looking at Fenicks' post history should show you it.
It's not much at all, but it's non-zero, so it's an improvement I guess.
Post by: Karlito on March 12, 2016, 12:09:03 pm
Post by: gimli on March 12, 2016, 12:24:58 pm
Post by: Sergarr on March 12, 2016, 12:55:11 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 12, 2016, 01:33:11 pm
Really. Is anyone even going to be able to play it if it does get released?
Post by: Majestic7 on March 12, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
That priest(ess) likes sex, but doesn't like deep ones. Doesn't know what she is missing...
Post by: Ghazkull on March 12, 2016, 02:06:39 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 12, 2016, 02:47:18 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 12, 2016, 03:09:40 pm
Distracted."
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 12, 2016, 03:43:59 pm
Worst part is, it seems playable. There's no clear indication that it shouldn't be possible to open up a beta, and it should certainly be possible to release some YouTube videos.Seconded. From what I'm seeing, it looks playable.
Why can't the dev just release what he has?
Post by: jhxmt on March 12, 2016, 07:04:20 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 12, 2016, 07:29:29 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2016, 08:11:31 pm
My guess is they'd rather move ahead working at this point then get bogged down in short comings of a beta. There's always going to be short comings, but, based on the way things have currently gone, I can imagine the project getting bogged down because the dev team has issues prioritizing work, communicating and so forth. Getting into the regular release/bug fixing cycle might hinder development at this point. On the other hand, the longer the game goes without real backer input, the less likely it is it can change in time for release.
Post by: Cultist on March 13, 2016, 03:06:39 am
Anyway, overall impression when two partners are barely communicating with each other is VERY bad and discouraging. Comm silence is hurting the game worse that announcement that it will be delayed for, like, a year.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on March 13, 2016, 12:13:09 pm
Otherwise the dev will never find all the crazy possible ways to combine the systems.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 13, 2016, 07:19:40 pm
It's pretty obvious plenty of work is still getting done based on those screens. Art, writing, development.
My guess is they'd rather move ahead working at this point then get bogged down in short comings of a beta. There's always going to be short comings, but, based on the way things have currently gone, I can imagine the project getting bogged down because the dev team has issues prioritizing work, communicating and so forth. Getting into the regular release/bug fixing cycle might hinder development at this point. On the other hand, the longer the game goes without real backer input, the less likely it is it can change in time for release.
Then what did I pay for? We already found out the mod backer bonus was a waste, are they gonna drop beta too? Yaeh yeah, it's an investmetn and not a preorder and all, but considering the way this dev cycle has gone that would be kind of a middle finger.
I think what's going on is one of the following:
1. The game's still broken and he's endlessly polishing the UI and shit while he bails water out of an already sunken ship.
2. The game's fixed or mostly fixed but he's endlessly polishing the UI because that seems to be his thing.
3. The game's fake. I don't really believe this one anymore.
4. It's on the way to being finished. I'm not sure I believe this one anymore. We're at the point that my hype has basically evaporated and I have trouble remembering why I used to be excited.
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2016, 07:39:06 pm
I get the feeling shit would still be this bad had a beta gotten released. Dev would be overworked, possibly show stopping bugs wouldn't be getting fixed, progress would still be slow, communication would be spotty and backers would be questioning the legitimacy of the project. Would you rather be half hooked into a project that you think is failing you, or at a distance?
Post by: Puzzlemaker on March 14, 2016, 09:02:24 am
Post by: gimli on March 14, 2016, 10:47:38 am
Kickstarter update? Wut? Still Chugging Along (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1518447).
"I apologize for the long break between updates and I don't fault anyone for being frustated with us in our lack of communication or our extremely questionable ability to hit deadlines - but we promise that we're still working hard and getting a little closer everyday. -KDG"
"We're going to do better. -KDG"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zangi on March 14, 2016, 10:51:30 am
Post by: ndkid on March 14, 2016, 11:21:58 am
With hope, they actually will manage to get back onto a better communication cycle.
Post by: Aqma on March 14, 2016, 11:51:02 am
Anyway PTW, still looking at this from time to time hoping it will get released at some point. Sounds very promising.
Post by: ventuswings on March 14, 2016, 12:06:01 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on March 14, 2016, 02:31:06 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 14, 2016, 02:39:13 pm
Let's see how long it lasts.
The biomancer stuff looks cool though. I think that's the worst part I'd really like this game to succeed and be good, but that's not the way the signs are pointing.
Post by: Isdar on March 19, 2016, 09:10:55 pm
1 (http://imgur.com/FaDBW4Z),2 (http://i.imgur.com/EygyXPN.jpg),3 (http://imgur.com/6A2dqrj),4 (http://imgur.com/a/ehlFR)
And the homepage has currently this sitting where the previous pre-order option was:
Quote
Pre-orders temporarily closed as we get close to
Early Access release! Thank you for your support.
Its happening?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2016, 10:06:01 pm
Post by: Zangi on March 19, 2016, 10:10:09 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on March 20, 2016, 04:05:46 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 20, 2016, 10:08:18 am
Post by: Culise on March 20, 2016, 01:18:59 pm
((Joke aside, my uneducated guess is this year for early access, so before 2018 for me as well.))
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 21, 2016, 01:27:38 pm
Post by: Jopax on March 21, 2016, 01:45:01 pm
Post by: sjm9876 on March 21, 2016, 02:12:49 pm
Easy enough to find through Deviantart though (http://tentaclesandteeth.deviantart.com/art/Azlan-507895243)
Post by: TempAcc on March 21, 2016, 04:43:29 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 21, 2016, 06:31:41 pm
I think it was an interesting if odd choice to go with tiled backgrounds, rather than icons, to display half of that information. It makes the city UI look pretty busy because there are all these fine detail images to describe things, and I'm guessing mouse over titles and tool tips to say what they actually are. It doesn't look bad. Just a little strange.
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2016, 08:28:44 pm
Its like a more ~artsy~ version of paradox style grand strategy games.Looks more like a Stardock game to me, if we're talking aesthetic. I can't think of a Paradox game that has anything much in common with this.
Post by: Culise on March 23, 2016, 08:16:59 am
Diplomacy, maybe? At least, aesthetically-speaking. Then again, there's a reason most people choose not to remember that game. ^_^Its like a more ~artsy~ version of paradox style grand strategy games.Looks more like a Stardock game to me, if we're talking aesthetic. I can't think of a Paradox game that has anything much in common with this.
I think, however, that TempAcc meant that it appeared to combine Paradox-style grand strategy gameplay with a more artistic aesthetic. I think it feels a bit more like Stardock in terms of gameplay as well as aesthetics (either Elemental or GalCiv), but that's something we won't be able to confirm ourselves for a while.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 08:22:37 am
GalCiv in particular.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2016, 08:57:51 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 23, 2016, 10:14:44 am
Somehow I think *polishing* involved *making additional screens and sub-menus to contain the metric shit ton of information the game offers.*
Watched the videos? There are more animations (without gameplay effect) and pretty pictures in the start menu then in most games, even those with more then 1 dev. It was discussed in the forums, but apperently "prettying" it up is what josh does to relax his brain.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 11:10:38 am
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 11:35:42 am
Post by: Culise on March 23, 2016, 01:09:39 pm
On paper it seems far and away from Stardock-style gameplay. Stardock to me equates to a game looking like it has depth, and turning out to be dirt simple in practice.Well, I am a bit of a pessimist about these things. I do look forward to being proven wrong. :P
GalCiv in particular.
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2016, 01:33:08 pm
^ Tell that to Toady. ;)Maybe nenjin doesn't really work with Toady on a regular basis
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 01:34:17 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 01:34:56 pm
Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Oh look, Negative Nancy has an opinion.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 01:54:29 pm
Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Oh look, Negative Nancy has an opinion.
Opinion? I am inferring it as fact.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 01:56:14 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 23, 2016, 02:04:02 pm
Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
I would, but it would distract him from coding, mate.
<3
Post by: i2amroy on March 23, 2016, 02:12:05 pm
Pretty typical for devs I work with. UI work is how they relax :PWell that's weird. (I'm the type of guy who hates UI work; hardcore data structure work is what I use to relax from being forced to do UI :P).
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 03:00:59 pm
Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Oh look, Negative Nancy has an opinion.
Opinion? I am inferring it as fact.
Ah yes. The classic Neonivek "fact." Never get tired of the great prognosticator telling us how the world turns.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 03:05:27 pm
Our software is super data-driven. So that's like 90% of people's day, and our UI work is still fairly primitive compared to a lot of main stream software. So for them UI is a break from data-madner.Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Oh look, Negative Nancy has an opinion.
Opinion? I am inferring it as fact.
Ah yes. The classic Neonivek "fact." Never get tired of the great prognosticator telling us how the world turns.
Are... you ok Nenjin?
Usually I have to instigate things to get this sort of reaction.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 03:08:15 pm
Quote from: Neonivek
Usually I have to instigate things to get this sort of reaction.
Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Goodness maybe you should just be quiet.
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 03:10:20 pm
Are you ok Nenjin?
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2016, 03:12:59 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 23, 2016, 03:13:44 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 23, 2016, 03:14:17 pm
There is no Nenjin there is only Zuul!
That certainly explains things.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 03:20:23 pm
Pretty typical for devs I work with. UI work is how they relax :PI'm the type of guy who hates UI work.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: JumpingJack on March 23, 2016, 05:28:20 pm
Quote from: NeonivekUsually I have to instigate things to get this sort of reaction.Goodness you guys should just marry Toady already.
Goodness maybe you should just be quiet.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: birdy51 on March 23, 2016, 07:21:25 pm
The Toady Harem would likely slow down development. Therefore we must remain chaste.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 26, 2016, 09:46:41 pm
A crafting system.
Am I the only one who thinks this sort of thing should wait until after 1.0?
Post by: Serenseven on March 26, 2016, 09:51:54 pm
We've got some more screenshots (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1529754) to look at.The crafting system has actually been in there since the beginning; this is just the first look we've had at it.
A crafting system.
Am I the only one who thinks this sort of thing should wait until after 1.0?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 26, 2016, 10:02:47 pm
Post by: Xantalos on March 26, 2016, 10:17:13 pm
We've got some more screenshots (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1529754) to look at.Oooooh damn. An encyclopedia? I like the way this is going.
A crafting system.
Am I the only one who thinks this sort of thing should wait until after 1.0?
Still hype.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 28, 2016, 07:32:37 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 28, 2016, 09:09:07 am
Now it is a competition about whether this or Stellaris gets (something playable) out first.
Not much of a competition. Stellaris, no question.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 28, 2016, 09:23:20 am
Better to wait for a complete game than to graft unfitting features to an incomplete one.
It's not though. Creating items has always been in the game and it's always fit. HOw can you be Sauron without your one ring?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 28, 2016, 11:53:45 am
Better to wait for a complete game than to graft unfitting features to an incomplete one.
It's not though. Creating items has always been in the game and it's always fit. HOw can you be Sauron without your one ring?
That was exactly the example I thought of.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 28, 2016, 03:00:03 pm
Right, which is why he should work on the crafting system now rather than waiting until post-release.Better to wait for a complete game than to graft unfitting features to an incomplete one.
It's not though. Creating items has always been in the game and it's always fit. HOw can you be Sauron without your one ring?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 29, 2016, 04:35:27 am
Post by: Zangi on March 29, 2016, 10:59:42 am
But it should wait past-alpha.But... isn't it already in? Or am I missing something? (Havn't really been paying much attention.)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 29, 2016, 11:17:05 am
But it should wait past-alpha.But... isn't it already in? Or am I missing something? (Havn't really been paying much attention.)
Alpha/beta is a bit arbitrary, but I think the point is that the "beta backers" have nothing to play yet, so the game is not "in beta."
Post by: Cthulhu on March 29, 2016, 12:59:16 pm
Things have gotten hazy more recently.
Regardless, it's a feature that was always in the game, this is just the first time we've seen a screenshot. Asking him not to put it in until after alpha doesn't really make any sense because it's already there.
Post by: Isdar on April 03, 2016, 12:29:47 pm
Post by: Vgray on April 03, 2016, 01:37:34 pm
But it should wait past-alpha.But... isn't it already in? Or am I missing something? (Havn't really been paying much attention.)
Regardless, it's a feature that was always in the game, this is just the first time we've seen a screenshot. Asking him not to put it in until after alpha doesn't really make any sense because it's already there.I believe this is what Zangi was saying.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 03, 2016, 02:15:39 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 03, 2016, 08:34:36 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on April 04, 2016, 01:02:30 am
At this point it's 99% written off as far as i"m concerned.
Post by: Ghazkull on April 04, 2016, 05:41:19 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 04, 2016, 05:50:28 am
That is sort of thematic release schedule, me thinks.
Post by: JumpingJack on April 04, 2016, 06:33:47 pm
To be honest, I'm not even that excited for the base game. I'm more so looking forward to the mods that people might come up with. Just imagine wreaking havoc as a Daedric Prince. :P
Post by: nenjin on April 04, 2016, 06:57:50 pm
Still, I'll take some screenies every once in a while to remind me I paid for this game already and it'll (probably) come out at some point.
Post by: Lapoleon on April 06, 2016, 01:04:39 am
The first will probably end up a combination of trial and error and looking at the wiki (either the ingame version or the online version). The second part we'll have to see although all the tooltips and popup screens make me optimistic.
Anyway, Fenicks is getting a copy of the current build from Josh to see what's actually going on, so we'll have some news on how broken the AI currently is in a week or so.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 06, 2016, 02:53:04 am
Post by: TempAcc on April 06, 2016, 08:03:22 am
Since we have no real gameplay samples of the newer version yet, it prob looks more confusing then it actualy is (remember how it felt seeing people play paradox grand strategy games before you actualy knew how to play?).
Post by: puke on April 06, 2016, 08:10:42 am
Specifically, it gave you all the components of the numbers that modified your combat odds. So instead of just seeing something like 75% to attack (or whatever) it would say +1% for this, +5% for that, -6% for something else... then also give you the odds of other fringe outcomes and your injury chances and whatever else.
It was a huge amount of information, but SUPER useful and I found it much preferable to native Civ IV. I see why they didn't include it in the native UI. I also see why they made Civ V they way they did... but I likes me some numbers, and I think there may be some value to what TWS is doing here.
Of course, it won't have mass appeal. So it is probably a bad move, even if some people would like it better that way. On the other hand, Kickstarter is the vehicle for niche games that wouldn't otherwise get made, so good on 'em for giving crazy people their crazy numbers.
Post by: Serenseven on April 06, 2016, 08:49:06 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 06, 2016, 02:03:51 pm
(remember how it felt seeing people play paradox grand strategy games before you actualy knew how to play?).I don't remember Paradox games ever giving the impression of overwhelming gameplay chaos that this does.
Post by: nenjin on April 06, 2016, 02:32:28 pm
Post by: Retropunch on April 17, 2016, 03:50:52 pm
I kind of agree. When I first jumped into CK2 I was pretty overwhelmed by how much info was nested in the UI.Thirded. All it really means though is that the player has sit down and work out what a few bits mean - do you expect the players to do that? If so then it's fine, otherwise you need it to be a bit clearer.
As this is trying to be a deep strategy, I don't think it's a problem to expect players to have a bit of a learning curve - and it's always better to show more than miss important stuff out/put it behind the scenes.
Post by: Malus on April 18, 2016, 03:31:59 am
I didn't even realize how much craziness there is to the CK2 UI until I hopped onto a Skype call with a few friends and tried to get a multiplayer game going with people who'd never touched a grand strategy game before. After 30 minutes of character customization, we loaded in, and I spent about 15 minutes explaining the various screens, setting ambitions, marrying, assigning titles and councillors (and then deploying those councillors), the various mapmodes, how to enter the diplomacy screen, what the *point* of the diplomacy screen is... we finally unpaused and they were all quickly overwhelmed anyway. I've sunk thousands of hours into Paradox games so I totally forgot what it must be like to navigate half a dozen separate menus seemingly arranged without rhyme or reason, with walls of text everywhere and flavor mixed in with game mechanics making it hard to figure out what really matters. When you aren't experienced enough to filter out all the useless information, it's kind of impossible to not get lost.I kind of agree. When I first jumped into CK2 I was pretty overwhelmed by how much info was nested in the UI.Thirded. All it really means though is that the player has sit down and work out what a few bits mean - do you expect the players to do that? If so then it's fine, otherwise you need it to be a bit clearer.
I don't think there's a problem with the way That Which Sleeps' interface looks, but it's definitely less casual than Civ 5 et al... assuming the game even exists and isn't just a bunch of carefully photoshopped screenshots with some occasional video editing magic.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 18, 2016, 04:20:43 am
Even if it is... struggling.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 18, 2016, 11:44:17 am
Quote from: Fenicks
No real updates - spoke briefly with the man and he alluded to the fact that he is pretty much at his breaking point as far as financials go - so options are beg for friends and family money, or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.
Kind of a nebulous update - no real date given - just note that the pressure is building there too.
When I tried to run the game (this is a while ago and like a whole previous iteration) - it couldn't read or access certain data files - I assumed it was error on my part as I am not exactly clever or bright when it comes to such matters.
("the man" is the other member of the company, and the only programmer)
It seems now that it was always a lie that "all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented" (from the Kickstarter page). Maybe they can explain more fully, but I don't think a lawsuit is out of the question now. Depends on what they do going forward, and if anyone is annoyed enough to bother over the $25/$50/whatever.
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 18, 2016, 11:54:23 am
It seems now that it was always a lie that "all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented" (from the Kickstarter page).
I don't know if I'd go that far. If anything, it looks to be another death-by-stretch-goals. I fully believe they had something when they launched the kickstarter, but afterwards they overhauled literally everything in order to accommodate all the stretch goals.
And honestly, there were definite improvements. If you compare the KS pictures to the screenshots and video from a few months ago, it looks and seems significantly better. That's all for naught if it never releases, though.
Post by: Jopax on April 18, 2016, 12:13:58 pm
Post by: Zangi on April 18, 2016, 12:40:58 pm
The
Post by: Cruxador on April 18, 2016, 02:04:31 pm
or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.If this is an option now, why wasn't it before? Isn't that what a beta is supposed to be?
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 18, 2016, 02:07:04 pm
If they're out of money, open the game up for early access and give people a cut-down version to test and play. Disable systems that don't work if you must, explain that it's still in progress. I might actually buy it if they did that, right now I'm just watching and wondering if I'll ever play it.or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.This should have been done ages ago.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 18, 2016, 03:55:56 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 18, 2016, 04:45:54 pm
"They will all look up and shout 'Do anything other than what you are doing right now! Please, something!' and I will whisper '...'" - That Which SleepsWell if he's out of money and not done with the game, what he's currently doing is patently not working.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 18, 2016, 05:10:49 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 18, 2016, 07:05:31 pm
"They will all look up and shout 'Do anything other than what you are doing right now! Please, something!' and I will whisper '...'" - That Which SleepsWell if he's out of money and not done with the game, what he's currently doing is patently not working.
The joke
----------
Your head
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 19, 2016, 09:17:20 am
or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.If this is an option now, why wasn't it before? Isn't that what a beta is supposed to be?
Indeed. Which contributes to the impression that there never was a game to begin with; just lots of fancy images.
Post by: lordcooper on April 19, 2016, 10:02:35 am
or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.If this is an option now, why wasn't it before? Isn't that what a beta is supposed to be?
Indeed. Which contributes to the impression that there never was a game to begin with; just lots of fancy images.
If that was the case it would still be up for sale.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on April 19, 2016, 10:36:53 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 19, 2016, 11:02:57 am
Post by: Sergarr on April 19, 2016, 04:18:40 pm
I think the end is nigh. One of the two members of the company wrote:Well, that's sure a shitty situation they're ended up in. It seems that in the strive for ideal perfection he has not properly accounted for a realistic analysis of costs incurred by it. Maybe he will thus realize that sometimes you have to cut some corners and use old, tried and working solutions instead of fancy, shiny and untested ones (I think it was especially so with AI; while making every bot predict actions of all other bots sure is fancy, it's very much outside of the "reliably working solutions" set, and it showed), if you want to get anything actually done in a timely and orderly manner.Quote from: FenicksNo real updates - spoke briefly with the man and he alluded to the fact that he is pretty much at his breaking point as far as financials go - so options are beg for friends and family money, or push out whatever is done up to the point of release and keep going from there.
Kind of a nebulous update - no real date given - just note that the pressure is building there too.
When I tried to run the game (this is a while ago and like a whole previous iteration) - it couldn't read or access certain data files - I assumed it was error on my part as I am not exactly clever or bright when it comes to such matters.
("the man" is the other member of the company, and the only programmer)
It seems now that it was always a lie that "all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented" (from the Kickstarter page). Maybe they can explain more fully, but I don't think a lawsuit is out of the question now. Depends on what they do going forward, and if anyone is annoyed enough to bother over the $25/$50/whatever.
Also, stretch goals are evil, especially if they can't be worked into the game without massive overhauls.
Post by: Xgamer4 on April 19, 2016, 04:28:07 pm
Quote from: Fenicks
There's no way I'd ever suggest or support another Kickstarter. I didn't mean to cause a ruckus with the last statement, just really saying that it's probably not -where Josh wanted it to be- at release doesn't mean it's not somewhere. As far as finances and money - we've been running negative for a long time so it's not like its destroying our lives. Josh made a huge sacrifice to quit working at an extremely hi level / lucrative position to develop this game full time - so it's really just a choice he made. He had a certain vision for where the game needs to be for release and we're getting to the point compromises will be made.
We aren't asking people for more money - we took down preorders.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 19, 2016, 04:38:24 pm
Crossposting from the dev forum without context is a bit of a dick move, ZeroGravitas.
The context is that everyone was asking for another update. The last substantial update on the developer forums was seven days prior on April 10. In the meantime there were a couple posts saying there was no update. In other words, no context was missing.
I see someone already posted the new "update" from today that clarifies the update I cross-posted, which is actually what I came here to do.
In any case, assuming that I was posting "without context" is itself "a dick move." The context is that over the past couple years we have seen a remarkable improvement in screenshot quality, a few animations, and that's it. Nothing approaching a "game."
Post by: Majestic7 on April 20, 2016, 12:29:16 am
Someone should write a sort of indy game bible to hammer in these things, including graphic and horrible examples of past failures regarding feature creep and losing project focus. It is not tied to indy development though, I've seen the same happen in huge projects in the business world.
(Not really saying TWS is a failure before it is officially so, just musing on a general level.)
Post by: Serenseven on May 09, 2016, 11:20:24 am
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1570609
Post by: birdy51 on May 09, 2016, 11:58:08 am
I do not know if they're going to make it, but I'm still going to hope for the best.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 09, 2016, 12:47:43 pm
That's more like, decidedly a not terrible thing.
Post by: birdy51 on May 09, 2016, 01:20:22 pm
It is frustrating that they haven't been able to deliver, but that is a risk assumed by both backers and the KDG themselves. But that does not mean that it is productive to dog them about it, especially after they've already failed.
Which, they have. The developers have failed to deliver the project in a timely manner. That said, they should continue to try to develop the game on a deficit is a credit to their perseverance. They're making the best of what is decidedly a real shitty situation and that takes guts. That takes a helluva of a lotta guts. They screwed up, and they are doing whatever it takes to fix it.
So, basically yes. Because they haven't been able to match the release schedule, them throwing it out is a good thing. It removes one artificial standard that builds up peoples hopes only to bash it down again.
That said, I'm not going to advocate them not having a schedule. I just hope they keep it to themselves, so as to not subject both themselves and the backers to more agitation if things don't work out.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2016, 10:33:00 am
The no word on release is decidedly a good thing.
The good news continues; still no word on release!
Even better news: they shut down the public forums!
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 10:36:04 am
Post by: Xantalos on June 30, 2016, 10:59:35 am
Or perhaps they've just given up, who knows. It'd be a shame to see it fail, but it happens.
Post by: nenjin on June 30, 2016, 11:20:44 am
Post by: sjm9876 on June 30, 2016, 11:26:20 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 11:30:42 am
Post by: Xantalos on June 30, 2016, 11:40:26 am
At this stage I'd imagine the only sensible move would be to cut unfinished features until you get a minimum viable product and release that, then continue development on whatever sales come in for that version. I'd probably buy it.That might be a thing that could be possible, judging by their pre-Kickstarter claims that they already had a game and just needed the thing for actual art money.
Unfortunately, seems Josh's entered a strange mood, to put a light tone on it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 11:49:02 am
Post by: ndkid on June 30, 2016, 11:56:45 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 30, 2016, 12:10:28 pm
That said, while I can sympathize, nothing really inspires confidence... If it's a failure, take it out back and put it out of its misery. If not, give us something. Anything.
Post by: puke on June 30, 2016, 12:54:24 pm
Too bad it hasn't worked out, but maybe they'll release something if they are not overly demoralized by the hostile responses. I wouldn't, but they're already better people than me for giving it a try in the first place.
Also too bad they lost so much of their own money trying to bring to life a product for the enjoyment of others. I hope they manage to create something of it yet, but any reasonable businessman would have already stopped chasing the sunk cost.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2016, 01:13:51 pm
Good on them for giving it a solid try.
Personally I think this is giving them too much credit. I'm guessing they never really had the means or even a plan to make a real game. Just some ideas, that turned into some Unity mock-ups.
Post by: Sergarr on June 30, 2016, 02:39:12 pm
No, I think they got significantly further than that. It's just that they've forgotten a simple truth: perfect is the worst enemy of good.Good on them for giving it a solid try.
Personally I think this is giving them too much credit. I'm guessing they never really had the means or even a plan to make a real game. Just some ideas, that turned into some Unity mock-ups.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 02:44:06 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on June 30, 2016, 02:45:18 pm
Good on them for giving it a solid try.
Personally I think this is giving them too much credit. I'm guessing they never really had the means or even a plan to make a real game. Just some ideas, that turned into some Unity mock-ups.
Lots of things like the constant delays, some weird misspellings in sceenshots etc. point towards this.
The weird thing however is that there are external artists that have been paid. 90% of the money arrived during the Kickstarter, so there has been no point to stringing everybody along in order to make more money and Josh has spent so much time on the forums that he could have earned quite a few bucks working in the IT business in the same time.
It all leads me to believe that Josh is in a terrible place in his own mind where he is lying to himself that everything will be okay if he just had one more day to fix it. I've been there myself and it can be quite hard to break it, especially if you're outside your normal social safety net.
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 30, 2016, 03:18:33 pm
It all leads me to believe that Josh is in a terrible place in his own mind where he is lying to himself that everything will be okay if he just had one more day to fix it. I've been there myself and it can be quite hard to break it, especially if you're outside your normal social safety net.
Agreed. Diagnosing mental disorders over the internet is a fool's errand (making me a fool, I'll completely admit), but at the same time, I wouldn't be too surprised if he'd slipped into a depression. Massive lifestyle change (Fenicks has hinted that Josh used to hold a pretty high-up position, that was presumably well-paid, and is now just barely slipping by at poverty-level) in order to accommodate a massive project that just keeps running into problems. Plus all the family stuff that helped cause some of the delays way back at the beginning. Trying to cope via avoidance explains why the small amount of work we've heard about has been polish and almost entirely unrelated to the core functionality, plus why he's cut himself off from all of his social outlets (removing himself from the forum, that he seemed to enjoy, is noteworthy-but-minor - dodging all contact with Fenicks is on a different level entirely).
Fenicks, I seriously doubt you're reading this, but on the off-chance you are - it'd likely be best to completely ignore all the beta backers about pressing for answers, and just meet up with Josh for lunch or something, and avoid discussing That Which Sleeps at all. See how he's doing, first and foremost. Especially if he has any history of depression or anything (which we definitely wouldn't know).
Post by: Lapoleon on June 30, 2016, 03:32:04 pm
Fenicks, I seriously doubt you're reading this, but on the off-chance you are
I just passed along your proposal to the Beta forums.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on June 30, 2016, 03:33:51 pm
I've been tempted myself to use crowd sourcing. Stories like this one remind me that it was a wise choice to resist. I do not envy that very dark place the King Dinosaur Games folks must be in. As indie colleagues and fellow human beings, I hope they come out of without too many weeks or months spent in regret and sadness. Hopefully wiser, more knowledgeable about game development and perhaps a bit more humble. Their vision was a great one, and I hope someone brings something like it to life at some point.
Post by: nenjin on June 30, 2016, 04:32:21 pm
As a backer of over 10 KS games now, having watched the sausage get made on various games at various states of development....
Let's say the game does eventually come out. Do the missed deadlines, compromises, rushed things, taint the entire game experience? If it released would you even be able to enjoy it the same way as you might have if it hit all its deadlines (or at least most)? Would you, generalized you, be able to step back from the months of disappointment and judge the game strictly on its merits? Or is all this pre-release stuff part and parcel of the game experience and judgments about it?
Post by: sjm9876 on June 30, 2016, 04:44:15 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 05:49:21 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 30, 2016, 06:32:06 pm
Here's a question...
As a backer of over 10 KS games now, having watched the sausage get made on various games at various states of development....
Let's say the game does eventually come out. Do the missed deadlines, compromises, rushed things, taint the entire game experience? If it released would you even be able to enjoy it the same way as you might have if it hit all its deadlines (or at least most)? Would you, generalized you, be able to step back from the months of disappointment and judge the game strictly on its merits? Or is all this pre-release stuff part and parcel of the game experience and judgments about it?
Honestly what sours me about the games I've kickstarted (of the five I've actually kickstarted or otherwise) is more when a game just ends up bland or a shadow of its advertised self.
I'd almost prefer it never be released then it being bad.
Post by: nenjin on June 30, 2016, 06:50:42 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 30, 2016, 06:53:27 pm
Here's a question...
As a backer of over 10 KS games now, having watched the sausage get made on various games at various states of development....
Let's say the game does eventually come out. Do the missed deadlines, compromises, rushed things, taint the entire game experience? If it released would you even be able to enjoy it the same way as you might have if it hit all its deadlines (or at least most)? Would you, generalized you, be able to step back from the months of disappointment and judge the game strictly on its merits? Or is all this pre-release stuff part and parcel of the game experience and judgments about it?
Might make me a bit less likely to play it on release, but I'll eventually get around to it. At that point, the question is how good of a game it is, not the drama.
Post by: nenjin on June 30, 2016, 07:01:22 pm
It's not a "good game vs. bad game" determination. More an overall general eh....that, even if it IS ultimately a good game, nukes your enthusiasm for it. I've noticed playing a lot of games in EA or Kickstarter previews that attempting to get into the game when it's not there detracts from my overall perception of a game's awesomeness.
An example: War for the Overworld. Got where it needed to go eventually but after months and months of incremental upgrades. Or Darkwood, which has always continually polished the overall game systems while it still has the same basic content (Chapter 1 of the game.) Both of them are "good games" but due to my extended relationship with them (whether that's piecemeal upgrades or missed deadlines), all them feels doesn't just magically "go away" when they release. You in a sense can never experience a game for the first time, twice. Likewise, in lieu of a game to play, all you really have is the disappointments that form the foundation of your relationship to it.
There's some EA games for me that, even though I'd recommend them, I can't recommend them with genuine hype because watching a game incrementally grow over time has tempered my enthusiasm.
Post by: Malus on June 30, 2016, 07:57:46 pm
Things might get a bit murkier when you pay money for a game, but I have a different philosophy than most people. I think Patreon is probably closer to my platonic ideal of game development -- rather than having a dev team sink tons of their own (or publisher) money into a product and then gamble on the possibility that it sells well whenever (if ever) the game releases, finding fans who are willing to pay to be a part of the creation of the game, offset the cost of development, and just generally keep the cogs turning seems like a much better idea. Instead of paying a company for a game, and then that company pays the programmer's salary, why not just crowdsource the programmer's salary?
If there was a playable version of That Which Sleeps, even if it was buggy, unfinished, whatever -- I'd happily toss $10 or $20 a month to the devs for as long as they kept working on it and releasing updates. That's not $10 or $20 to get access to the game, that's $10 or $20 with the understanding that I, alongside many others at various price points, am funding the free availability of the game for everyone, Dwarf Fortress-style.
There's an important caveat here: I don't think this development model would work for every game. It wouldn't even work for most games. But for games like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, Aurora, Factorio, Minecraft, and yeah -- That Which Sleeps -- I think it's viable. Games where development doesn't just end. Probably most games that derive their value from mechanics rather than story.
Post by: Neonivek on June 30, 2016, 08:09:05 pm
Quote
But for games like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, Aurora, Factorio, Minecraft, and yeah -- That Which Sleeps -- I think it's viable. Games where development doesn't just end.
But... Rimworld has a stopping point... a realistic one too.
Post by: Malus on June 30, 2016, 09:57:08 pm
Sure, it does. But it doesn't have to stop there. Rimworld's a game based largely around emergent stories. Any additional features can only deepen the storytelling potential. I can imagine a dozen possible expansions that would only add to the game. A more robust psychology system, colony justice, deeper interaction with the planet's inhabitants, etc. Stuff that's not easily moddable. You could let a developer work on Rimworld for five years and there'd still be things worth adding to the game. None of it's essential, but it's a work that could be extended almost indefinitely, much like Dwarf Fortress.QuoteBut for games like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, Aurora, Factorio, Minecraft, and yeah -- That Which Sleeps -- I think it's viable. Games where development doesn't just end.
But... Rimworld has a stopping point... a realistic one too.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 01, 2016, 01:35:16 am
Dwarf Fortress will probably be in alpha until Toady can no longer see his screen to type. But it exists.
The thing that really broke it for me was finding out Fenicks has never actually played the game or seen it being played. That and the absence of any word from these supposed in-house alpha testers. I'd be willing to bet the 50 bucks I spent on this that the game doesn't exist in any form that could be considered a game, and that if it ever did exist that was a long time ago.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 01, 2016, 01:46:06 am
What does this has to do with TWS? Well, I think kickstarts (and early access) expose game developers to toxic communities in a way that can poison the development. We all know gaming fans are a fickle beast and can be horrible, but at least if you are dealing with a finished product they can't affect you that much. When we are talking about unfinished products and especially indie developers with emotional attachment to their product, the effect is much greater. I'm not saying toxic fans killed or even affected TWS, but maybe they had an effect. If you are depressed and then just see shitposting berating you everywhere, is it wonder if it kills your motivation even further? (I remember that disturbed dude that had an unhealthy obsession about TWS and how it sucks and even came here to spill his bullshit.)
On the other hand, some games are ruined by the developers becoming hostage to their early access fan. For example, I think the Mordheim game suffers from this. There was a small vocal group on the forums that clearly hijacked the development and to please them, the makers of the game put in several mechanics that drove the game into a niche position it wouldn't otherwise be in. I'm sure the game had reached a wider audience otherwise.
So yeah, if I was a indie dev, I'd actually avoid interacting with fans too much. (Or alternatively, hire someone to do that interaction for me and try to avoid reading shit too much.) Support is great, but fanbois can make you blind to your faults while toxic community can poison your motivation.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 01, 2016, 02:32:02 am
I'm upset because if I paid into the game under what I now think were false pretenses.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 01, 2016, 02:49:03 am
Quote
On the other hand, some games are ruined by the developers becoming hostage to their early access fan. For example, I think the Mordheim game suffers from this. There was a small vocal group on the forums that clearly hijacked the development and to please them, the makers of the game put in several mechanics that drove the game into a niche position it wouldn't otherwise be in. I'm sure the game had reached a wider audience otherwise.
Honestly, even with those mechanics to please the 'multi' crowd, Mordheim has so many issues that even with those removed it'd still be a pretty meh game, Many skills are still straight up horrible and not worth taking in any situation, half the magic in the game is about on par with those terrible skills.
Post by: hops on July 01, 2016, 02:58:42 am
Post by: MasterFancyPants on July 01, 2016, 07:26:34 am
The thing that really broke it for me was finding out Fenicks has never actually played the game or seen it being played. That and the absence of any word from these supposed in-house alpha testers. I'd be willing to bet the 50 bucks I spent on this that the game doesn't exist in any form that could be considered a game, and that if it ever did exist that was a long time ago.
I remember looking at this when it was going to be a small game about controlling monsters. Honestly, reading that makes me think there never was a game. Surly if things are that bad they could push something out? At least a detailed gameplay video.
Further, I think you guys are giving the people way to much leniency. The did take your money and even though people call KS donations. You are donating so that a game will be made. I'd be damn upset If I found out that Toady One hadn't been working on DF for 6 months.
Then again, I'll only reading the thread drama. So, I don't really know anything.
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2016, 07:28:07 am
Post by: Egan_BW on July 01, 2016, 07:31:27 am
You give devs a bunch of money to make a game. That's just what it costs to make it.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 01, 2016, 07:51:19 am
Post by: TempAcc on July 01, 2016, 08:05:53 am
I think this development model works only when the right people are involved. When you got people like Toady, who are passionate about their project since it has evolved and grown to be more than just a project, but also an important part of their lives and even who they are as a person, then said project will likely be awesome and take great advantage of this kind of development model. Hell, toady would prob keep developing DF even if he never achieved such a following (and donations). Toady also happens to be a guy who can deal with his own issues and overcome problems by himself (its publicy known toady overcame a meth addiction). DF is the result of the perfect combination of factors, the kind of thing that only happens when the right person works on the right project with the right approach and the best kind of support.
However, this doesn't mean that we should all just give the TWS dev a hug, give him a friendly pink card with "you tried" written on it and call it a day. A fair bit of money and trust was put on this project, and when people put their effort into you, its completely reasonable to expect you to at least inform said people when things don't work out. Instead the guy just isolated himself more and more, first from the community and then from the people who actualy had direct contact with him.
Its like he's his biggest enemy. We can come up with a hundred excuses for it, but if someone comes to you and tells you they can totally 100% make a rad looking toy if you give him enough money, spends the next few months telling you about how awesome it will be, then delivers nothing while also telling you nothing, well, I think you have every right to be disappointed.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 01, 2016, 08:42:28 am
Kickstart isn't donations they are "funding" you are the producer :P
Turns out that making games is harder than giving five dollars to a kickstarter campaign! Turns out that sometimes, game development doesn't work out!
You give devs a bunch of money to make a game. That's just what it costs to make it.
Kickstarter is whatever suits your current argument the best. They took 80,000 dollars of other people's money and have nothing to show for it. There is nowhere else in the universe but video game kickstarters that people would try to defend that.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:04:48 am
The environment was extremely encouraging for a very long time. The Vordrak thing was the first time things actually started getting nasty and it was absolutely not the norm when it happened.
Not just encouraging; the environment was incredible forgiving, even after years, but when we were still getting screenshots.
Quote
I'm upset because if I paid into the game under what I now think were false pretenses.
The Kickstarter page literally said "we have a working game." Yet somehow years later, we have nothing. I know, I know, the stretch goals meant they had to vastly expand the game and recode in a new version of Unity or whatever. But where's the old working game? It was lost? Really?
The much more likely scenario is that nobody actually coded a working game at any point, yet they wrote that on the kickstarter page anyway.
And here's the real question: How could Fenicks possibly not know this? He really saw nothing, knew nothing? Just like he now claims he didn't know that he was President of EVO Games, Ltd, or that he had no involvement with that earlier company?
Everyone saying, "oh how sad, their lost friendship." - you are a muppet. This was a scam from the start, by both of them, and probably not their first. There was no "working game."
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 01, 2016, 09:09:17 am
I get that people are upset, but investing in a startup is not a license to slander or abuse the producers of the product. If you think your money has been misused, file suit. Leaving mean comments on the forum or kickstarter page does nothing but make you look like an idiot.
Post by: ndkid on July 01, 2016, 09:11:16 am
Kickstarter is whatever suits your current argument the best. They took 80,000 dollars of other people's money and have nothing to show for it. There is nowhere else in the universe but video game kickstarters that people would try to defend that.experimental research
Speculative drilling
casinos and lotteries
election campaigns
protection money
insurance
I could go on. And this isn't even about whether a kickstarter is donation or preorder, which is an argument I've never taken a side on. Just that there are lots and lots of speculative ventures out there, and to pretend there aren't strikes me as unreasonable.
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2016, 09:17:49 am
Just that there are lots and lots of speculative ventures out there, and to pretend there aren't strikes me as unreasonable.
Yes but you see if you go through a speculative venture and turn out nothing. You still have to prove you actually made an attempt.
---
I am not up in arms or anything...
But the sad thing is here... ZeroGravitas isn't out of line and believing that the entire thing was a Scam isn't an unfounded assumption in this case either.
Sure, "I" don't believe it. But honestly at this point the kickstarter has more then justified the negativity surrounding it. It has lost the grace period of "Stop being negative and assuming the worst!"
---
Anyhow this situation, assuming it really isn't a scam, isn't anything new to videogames and often is why videogames CAN go over budget.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:20:18 am
If you really think it was a scam then you should bring some kind of legal action against them.
I get that people are upset, but investing in a startup is not a license to slander or abuse the producers of the product. If you think your money has been misused, file suit. Leaving mean comments on the forum or kickstarter page does nothing but make you look like an idiot.
Libel, kid. Slander is oral.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 01, 2016, 09:20:39 am
But first let me tell you a bit so you get some context:
I have been posting in the TWS forum under the same name, so the beta backers will recognize me. I have been registered there for about 9 months, with multiple postings a day. Until yesterday I think I was in the top 10 numbers of posts, more than Fenicks and some of the mods. So I think itīs clear that I was/am interested in the game.
I preodered the game for 50 dollars back then when they stoped giving infos to the public, because I couldnīt stop my curiosity and believed a beta would be inbound for the end of 2015. I did not kickstart, but preorder, so formaly speaking I could demand my money back, but this isnīt an option because the transaction is more than 180 days back and paypal wouldnīt let me charge it back themself and I donīt think the developers are willing to pay anything back. My loss, but one I was willing to take if the project would fail in a normal way. Thatīs not why I am here.
The reason I am here is that I was permanently banned from the forum yesterday without any direct warning.
What happened? I will try to tell it as objectively as I can.
As you are all probably aware from this thread Josh stoped posting a long while back. A few months ago Fen started to communicate with us, and I hoped things would improve. When the screenshots came I was optimistic for a week or two.
But then Fen would repedetly promise to get into contact with Josh but refused to share any information. The way he worded things made it seem like Josh didnīt share any infos with him that he could then give us in the first place.
Then in the last week Fen promised to meet up with Josh after Josh moved back to near his home. That meeting was pushed to the weekend, and then to this wednessday.
Then the unthinkable happened: Fen announced the cancelation of the meeting with:
"POSTPONED: HAR HAR HAR"
I and others at first believed this to be a joke because it was immediately followed by a joke about how Josh is an abusive husband but Fen stays with him because of how nice he is when others arenīt around (explaining it would need more context, just believe me it was supposed to be funny). No further explanation was offered.
This offended a few members of the forum, including me. I answered that I couldnīt understand how he could troll those few that remained until now. I have used some swearwords for emphasis, but never used an insult towards a person. Nya, the main mod of the forum, explicitly stated that he had no problem with the post (though Nya, the strongest supporter of the game, was offended enough himself by the message to step down from his moderation post).
Shortly after that Fen posted a number of postes in which he stated that we canīt expect him to know more about the game since he hasnīt seen anything himself for over a year, that he isnīt obliged to give us a day by day update, that he IS annoyed by some people on the forum more than by Josh (though he would still buy us a beer), and that he was waiting for my answer specifically while he was still angry. This was shortly after he completely purged the public and backer forums.
I gave my answer: I told him that he didnīt give day by day updates, just told us everyday that there arenīt any updates. I told him that his actions even caused Nya, who spend a lot more time on the forums than Fen and more money than any other backer (except maybe one backer who backed with 3000), to turn down his post.
And I said what probably led to my ban: I told him that yes, we can expect him to know more about the game which is developed by a company of two people which he is one from (but that hey, I understand that itīs hard to keep an overview on who does what in such a big company). I guess he took that second part personaly.
I wrote that post while being seriously pissed on how he treated the few of us that remained and kept loyal. Next time I tried to log in I was told that my account had been permanently baned without any further explanation being offered.
Again: I was baned for this permanently and without any prior warning The last one to be ban permanently was Vordrak after very extensive warnings for far worse behavior.
So now everyone here can judge for themself if that is how you deal with customers.
Since yesterday I have tried to contact the developers via email, in which I even apologized for any perceived insults and asked for either a reactivation of my account or giving me my money back, as I canīt receive any beta without my account even if it should eventually release and I view that as a termination/violation of contract (again: preorder, not backer) if this status should remain. I would even be satisfied with a read only permission. I am however not sure anyone reads those mails anymore. I have also filled in a refund request via paypal, which wonīt happen if KDG doesnīt agree because of the 180 days rule.
So now that I have told my story I would like to ask someone who is still in the forums over there some questions:
Who did ban me? I assume Fenicks but I canīt tell for sure.
Did that person state any reason for my ban or was I jsut gone from one moment to the next?
How did the people over there react to this? Was I the evil guy or was there any protest (I am mostly interested in Nyas opinion, as I value him as a neutral force)?
Did the banner state if there was any way to unban me? Or if I would receive any beta in another way should the ban remain?
Could you please ask Fen if he could consider giving me at least my reading abilities back if he doesnīt want to deal with me anymore? Of course I would cancel the chargeback attempt then, though I assume they donīt care about that anyway.
I would be very thankfull for any answers at all.
Edit: Paypal has closed my chareback attempt so there is no way for me to get my way back but to sue, which I am not going to do over 50 dollars on another continent.
Note: This is a very abriged summary of the events since those involved dozens or hundrets of posts. If anyone from there feels like I left something important out they are free to quote me from there to paint whatever they think is a more accurate picture.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 01, 2016, 09:21:04 am
Libel, kid. Slander is oral.Fair enough, I misspoke. You can drop the 'kid' crap though.
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2016, 09:24:18 am
Maybe I'm missing something but don't the gameplay videos and screenshots show that they 'made an attempt'?
It can be fixed or set up.
A famous example would be Spore which had a "Gameplay video" before they had any actual gameplay.
Or it could have been propped up.
Though as I said, I personally do not believe it is the case. Yet I wouldn't personally denounce anyone who thought otherwise at this point.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:26:27 am
Maybe I'm missing something but don't the gameplay videos and screenshots show that they 'made an attempt'?
There are no "gameplay" videos. He never presses end turn. The entire thing is probably a mockup in Unity. It looks like there is a game, sure. But there really isn't. It's smoke and mirrors.
Same thing with the screenshots. There are even typos in them that suggest that there is no game engine - like ruler names being randomly misspelled in particular fields. The only real explanation for a mistake like that is that there is no game engine pulling a string from a data file. There is a guy manually entering text into a field to make it look like a video game, but he screwed up.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:28:33 am
If you play the Standard Scenario you generally have a basic level of understanding how the game is going to play out, which was our goal - to make it a challenging experience that relies on your learning the patterns of the world. Manipulating the nations that hate eachother, targeting wise kings, timing a crippling famine at the right moment - but even inside that structure there's so many explosive elements. The moment you take a "radical" choice like killing the King and his immediate family, you get the unexpected - like one time I had cursed the King's Family, the Barons declared him unfit, split into two nations, and began to fight a civil war. Meanwhile the Tribes had united behind a Hero, who they proclaimed their chosen king, but he was Cylarian, the barons have a diplomatic summit after a bloody battle, declare the Cylarian hero their king (I didn't see this result but I'm assuming its because he is friends with all the barons and the heroes that were acting as diplomats), making him the king of both powers, he then went on to marry the daughter of the elves (at this point he's simply a diplomatic monster)... overthrows the Elvish Council and declares himself King.... now his ego and diplomatic skill are both max, he manages to Annex Elerion into Cylaria (still only three crowns) - I'm just watching this happen, because I'm spellbound, I don't want to interfere because I need to know what can possibly happen. The united three kingdoms attack Arden, recapturing the farmlands, he makes peace and turns Arden into an ally.
Long story short, he discovers I'm rising and crushes me. Despite the fact that he was simply taking over the world he was friendly with every hero, so no one was stopping him. I ended up adjusting how heroes see other friends if they're growing too powerful, but the completely random events that lead up to this were otherwise "expected" to function that way. In addition, later builds implemented the Balance of Power desire which makes nations take a more critical eye at people who are growing stronger.
Now that's an outlier but still somewhat understandable based on the scenario setup, if you add in the Game Modes you get some real crazy stuff. I have a lot of favorite Modes, but on the North Burns playing with "Liberty" is a really fun way to switch it - it makes revolutions and slave revolts much more common and you get to see the world rip itself apart and remake itself.
(emphasis added in bold)
This post is a great example of the fraud.
If any of this ever happened, where is the game it happened in?
Oh, it doesn't exist.
None of the things written here actually happened. They are stories he made up about a game that "sounds cool."
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 01, 2016, 09:29:19 am
Maybe I'm missing something but don't the gameplay videos and screenshots show that they 'made an attempt'?
There are no "gameplay" videos. He never presses end turn. The entire thing is probably a mockup in Unity. It looks like there is a game, sure. But there really isn't. It's smoke and mirrors.
Same thing with the screenshots. There are even typos in them that suggest that there is no game engine - like ruler names being randomly misspelled in particular fields. The only real explanation for a mistake like that is that there is no game engine pulling a string from a data file. There is a guy manually entering text into a field to make it look like a video game, but he screwed up.
He did end the turn a few times. I believe it was six turns in total with some events happening. So there was at least some engine running. But I agree that the typos struck me as strange back then, too.
Post by: TempAcc on July 01, 2016, 09:30:48 am
Kickstarter is whatever suits your current argument the best. They took 80,000 dollars of other people's money and have nothing to show for it. There is nowhere else in the universe but video game kickstarters that people would try to defend that.experimental research
Speculative drilling
casinos and lotteries
election campaigns
protection money
insurance
I could go on. And this isn't even about whether a kickstarter is donation or preorder, which is an argument I've never taken a side on. Just that there are lots and lots of speculative ventures out there, and to pretend there aren't strikes me as unreasonable.
Erm, you do realize that, except for casinos and lotteries, there are quite real consequences for not meeting a certain standard of expectation in those ventures, right?
Also, you do know that gambling doesn't really fall in the same category here. Like, at all? That is, unless you're willing to make a huge interpretative effort in order to push your argument, even if its just hilarious at best.
I don't think anyone is going overboard by being disappointed and wanting info on a project they put money towards. What is strange is why exactly people are so defensive of this specific project? What is wrong with being disappointed and suspicious of something that is, well, suspicious at the very least?
Also, like zerogravitas pointed out, KSG did claim they played the game. Except now the guy behind the DF forums account said he never did even witness the game being played. What gives?
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 01, 2016, 09:31:08 am
There are no "gameplay" videos. He never presses end turn.I see him go through several turns with things happening in this video. He's explaining mechanics, you can see events popping up. If it's a mockup it's an impressive one. I've prototyped things less impressive in Unity which would still qualify as games.
https://youtu.be/Qb2uub1wn0s
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 01, 2016, 09:33:26 am
Anyway, paypal payment is timed out, i.e. I can't refund even if I wanted to. The hype was/is very real for the game and it only comes to show that there is market for it.
Not getting overly emotionally involved seems like a good idea at this point.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:37:02 am
You'd think his co-pilot is in on it if its a scam, eh?
Anyway, paypal payment is timed out, i.e. I can't refund even if I wanted to. The hype was/is very real for the game and it only comes to show that there is market for it.
Not getting overly emotionally involved seems like a good idea at this point.
Yeah, it just seems crazy to think that there were two guys behind a Kickstarter, and one was really the evil mastermind who duped the poor finance/marketing guy into it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 09:38:36 am
Maybe I'm missing something but don't the gameplay videos and screenshots show that they 'made an attempt'?
There are no "gameplay" videos. He never presses end turn. The entire thing is probably a mockup in Unity. It looks like there is a game, sure. But there really isn't. It's smoke and mirrors.
Same thing with the screenshots. There are even typos in them that suggest that there is no game engine - like ruler names being randomly misspelled in particular fields. The only real explanation for a mistake like that is that there is no game engine pulling a string from a data file. There is a guy manually entering text into a field to make it look like a video game, but he screwed up.
He did end the turn a few times. I believe it was six turns in total with some events happening. So there was at least some engine running. But I agree that the typos struck me as strange back then, too.
There are no "gameplay" videos. He never presses end turn.I see him go through several turns with things happening in this video. He's explaining mechanics, you can see events popping up. If it's a mockup it's an impressive one. I've prototyped things less impressive in Unity which would still qualify as games.
https://youtu.be/Qb2uub1wn0s
Actually, now that I watch that again, it looks a lot better than I remember. The end turns do happen, although there's so little of the game that yeah, it could still be a mockup (and no end-of-turn pause/process?). But still, where is the game that was described in September 2014?
Post by: Neonivek on July 01, 2016, 09:39:15 am
You'd think his co-pilot is in on it if its a scam, eh?
Anyway, paypal payment is timed out, i.e. I can't refund even if I wanted to. The hype was/is very real for the game and it only comes to show that there is market for it.
Not getting overly emotionally involved seems like a good idea at this point.
Yeah, it just seems crazy to think that there were two guys behind a Kickstarter, and one was really the evil mastermind who duped the poor finance/marketing guy into it.
Actually that HAS happened once before from a kickstarted game (or early access I forget)
It was a huge shame and the guy got his money basically stolen. The guy hoarded the money they earned, said he ran out to get even more money, took it all and stopped developing the game.
I'd check its name but it was removed from Steam, HOPEFULLY as a mercy.
Post by: ndkid on July 01, 2016, 09:56:19 am
I think the "quite real consequences" differ greatly by things like whether there was a contract when the money changed hands.Kickstarter is whatever suits your current argument the best. They took 80,000 dollars of other people's money and have nothing to show for it. There is nowhere else in the universe but video game kickstarters that people would try to defend that.experimental research
Speculative drilling
casinos and lotteries
election campaigns
protection money
insurance
I could go on. And this isn't even about whether a kickstarter is donation or preorder, which is an argument I've never taken a side on. Just that there are lots and lots of speculative ventures out there, and to pretend there aren't strikes me as unreasonable.
Erm, you do realize that, except for casinos and lotteries, there are quite real consequences for not meeting a certain standard of expectation in those ventures, right?
Also, you do know that gambling doesn't really fall in the same category here. Like, at all? That is, unless you're willing to make a huge interpretative effort in order to push your argument, even if its just hilarious at best.
I don't think anyone is going overboard by being disappointed and wanting info on a project they put money towards. What is strange is why exactly people are so defensive of this specific project? What is wrong with being disappointed and suspicious of something that is, well, suspicious at the very least?
Also, like zerogravitas pointed out, KSG did claim they played the game. Except now the guy behind the DF forums account said he never did even witness the game being played. What gives?
I think you either misunderstood or ignored a portion of what I said. I have money sunk into TWS, and I'm annoyed by how the past year has gone. I was very specifically disagreeing with the proposition that KS is the only place where people would defend a venture that took $80,000 of people's money. There are lots of ventures that take lots, lots more money out of people's pockets for the possibility of getting something back. We can haggle over the legal and social contracts involved in Kickstarter, but treating it as the only place on earth where people defend getting bilked is, in my opinion, silly.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 01, 2016, 10:23:53 am
Still, Kickstart is a speculative venture. It is more investing than buying something. You pay for the guys to have their best shot at delivering the product. If they fail due to things beyond their control or even due to their own stupidity, well... that was the risk you took by funding a product that doesn't exist.
Any talk of legal action sounds like an overreaction and would require proof of malice. Being incompetent is not a crime and a civil lawsuit, on the other hand, would cost a lot more than anyone has put into the game.
Post by: ndkid on July 01, 2016, 10:34:48 am
Yeah, I won't comment on forum drama I have no proof or experience of. I understand people are feeling upset and heated about this, but hey, it is just a game. I remember I was really upset about the way Spacebase DF-9 was abandoned and it certainly put DoubleFine on my permanent boycot list. There are other failures I've put money into that have fallen flat on their faces like Forsaken Fortress and that-reverse-xcom-game-whose-name-i-don't-remember.There are legal routes beneath the level of litigation. I kickstarted a custom playing card deck designer, who didn't deliver for two years, and stopped communicating. Several of us had to rope in the Indiana (where he was based) attorney general's office to get him to finally deliver. (He still didn't deliver quite everything he promised me, but I got most of what I was originally promised.)
Still, Kickstart is a speculative venture. It is more investing than buying something. You pay for the guys to have their best shot at delivering the product. If they fail due to things beyond their control or even due to their own stupidity, well... that was the risk you took by funding a product that doesn't exist.
Any talk of legal action sounds like an overreaction and would require proof of malice. Being incompetent is not a crime and a civil lawsuit, on the other hand, would cost a lot more than anyone has put into the game.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 01, 2016, 10:51:02 am
Game developer just contacted me with how he wants to proceed regarding my unban/refund request. I will update again if he actually pulls through with that plan, which he projects will be on following thuesday.
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2016, 10:51:28 am
Be angry you don't have a game. Be angry you think your money may have been wasted.
But scamming? Are you high? What scammer puts out a map editor for a game they don't actually plan on making? What scammer creates a forum and fills it with 13 billion threads they actually comment in? What scammer tries to build a scenario editor for a game they're lying about making, and releases it?
Be angry. But FFS, quit jizzing into your tinfoil hat.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 01, 2016, 11:01:16 am
Post by: Sergarr on July 01, 2016, 12:00:47 pm
considering how much money you can make with simple Nigerian prince letter in comparisonWait, someone actually buys into this shit?
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 01, 2016, 12:05:03 pm
They wouldn't continue doing it if it didn't workconsidering how much money you can make with simple Nigerian prince letter in comparisonWait, someone actually buys into this shit?
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 01, 2016, 12:13:27 pm
Yeah, that seems loads of work for a scam worth only 80k considering how much money you can make with simple Nigerian prince letter in comparison. Cost/benefit for such scam just isn't very high.
And that's probably down to 60-70k (or even lower) after Kickstarter fees, bounced pledges and subtracting pledges made by the creators. Then we know they did contract a lot of artists, bought Unity assets and toolkits (some of which are quite pricey), there's software license fees (Adobe was mentioned), hosting costs, etc. I am very sure this was a net financial loss for them.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 12:16:35 pm
Some of you guys are ridiculous. Seriously.
Be angry you don't have a game. Be angry you think your money may have been wasted.
But scamming? Are you high? What scammer puts out a map editor for a game they don't actually plan on making? What scammer creates a forum and fills it with 13 billion threads they actually comment in? What scammer tries to build a scenario editor for a game they're lying about making, and releases it?
Be angry. But FFS, quit jizzing into your tinfoil hat.
I think you're forgetting that all of that stuff came after the Kickstarter. They had the money; they just wanted to keep everyone off their back. If you look at other Kickstarter scams, you see plenty of signs of progress after the Kickstarter, which slowly peters out.
Again, I ask you: review the first few dozens pages of this thread. Look at posts by the KingDinosaurGames account here, describing intricate playthroughs with tons of interaction between AIs and various mechanics. Then ask: Is there any evidence that any of that was EVER real? No, there isn't. It was all lies.
Post by: jhxmt on July 01, 2016, 12:29:51 pm
Is there any evidence that any of that was EVER real? No, there isn't. It was all lies.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and so forth. Yes, it's possible it was a scam. It's also possible that it was a genuine development attempt that ran into hideous feature creep or technical difficulties, coupled with a (now very) uncommunicative development team.
It's also possible that development is still proceeding and that the game will one day appear, although I don't personally believe that at this point.
All of these things are possibilities. I don't believe that the scam possibility is particularly more likely than other options at this point. As others have said, it seems like a significant amount of effort to go through in order to run (or, as per your point, maintain) a scam worth a 'mere' 80k. Especially since, as you pointed out, that a lot of that stuff materialised after the Kickstarter when, arguably, an efficient scammer could have simply vanished, rather than actually producing something (and, yes, map editors and forums and scenario editors do count as 'something').
I'm not saying "it's not a scam". But I am saying "it's unrealistic to say that it's definitely a scam at this point".
Also, as an aside, "stop jizzing into your tinfoil hat" is a wonderful phrase that I am going to use more often at selected people.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 12:56:52 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 01:10:11 pm
Is there any evidence that any of that was EVER real? No, there isn't. It was all lies.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and so forth.
Someone take this man to church! The Church of Bayes, that is.
Of course absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Every time you fail to find evidence supporting a proposition, you should view that proposition as increasingly improbable.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 01:15:39 pm
Quote from: Fenicks
I didn't say the reason for cancellation [of the meeting with Josh] because it was personal and I would not cross that line and share another person's reason.
We DID however meet today for a couple of hours. I would say that generally the meeting was nice but I don't feel that we are at all or any means close to a release.
I did see a working map, working POIs, agents and combat, character creation, menus, UI - stuff like that.
I did NOT see working AI, turns passing, etc - many of these elements are threadbare or torn apart as Josh is trying to make them work.
We did agree to work more closely and have a weekly meeting to discuss what's going on and next steps.
We are also trying to have a more modular focus where we work on getting this all together piece by piece so we can get a little closer to getting something anything in people's hands.
I stressed everyone's frustration with the way communication and stuff is handled, he acknowledges it, is very focussed on working on this and getting it released, but unfortunately, he has no idea on how long it will take.
So I don't know - we're going to keep meeting weekly - he's going to keep working, hopefully we'll have something super pre alpha to show soon. I stressed that we need to show SOMETHING as proof that it's not "vapor"
well, i'd love to be wrong. argument is a win-win for me in that regard.
(edits for clarity in the post; my insertions in brackets. the cancelled meeting was discussed above (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg7072904#msg7072904), where Fenicks just announced a long-promised meeting was postponed but without explanation)
Post by: sirvente on July 01, 2016, 02:23:51 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 01, 2016, 02:32:11 pm
Update on my part:
Game developer just contacted me with how he wants to proceed regarding my unban/refund request. I will update again if he actually pulls through with that plan, which he projects will be on following thuesday.
...Was Thuesday a typo on your part, or is that actually what you were told? Either way... I have no idea what happened, but you don't seem to be mentioned again in the rest of the thread. It's just bits of drama and panic, then Fenicks update that's been copied above, followed by a mix of "well, it's *something*" and "nope, not good enough".
Post by: nenjin on July 01, 2016, 02:49:31 pm
Actually, I've never really seen the map editor / scenario editor / whatever. Were those actually working tools?
Yes, they were. Buggy, but functional.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 01, 2016, 02:51:09 pm
...Was Thuesday a typo on your part, or is that actually what you were told? Either way... I have no idea what happened, but you don't seem to be mentioned again in the rest of the thread. It's just bits of drama and panic, then Fenicks update that's been copied above, followed by a mix of "well, it's *something*" and "nope, not good enough".
No, tuesday was what he told me. He also gave an plausible explanation why he had to wait till then, which I donīt want to disclose here before I donīt actually know if what he told me will actually happen, because I donīt feel like pssing him off again since I donīt have any real position of power to demand anything.
Interesting. I would have though that all my posts disapeared would alert someone, but seems like no one cares if people get arbitrarily permabanned.
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 01, 2016, 02:56:27 pm
And no worries there - I'm comfortable with things remaining private. I just wasn't sure about "Thuesday" because it's both an easy typo, and a potential slap-in-the-face depending on where it originated. And honestly, given that this is the 4th of July weekend, I'm not surprised nothing is happening.
Post by: Cruxador on July 01, 2016, 03:50:20 pm
Here's a question...I think people generally care most about the concept that got them involved. If the game is true to that, the troubles in development melt away like butter in the California sun. If the game is adulterated, well, Spore.
As a backer of over 10 KS games now, having watched the sausage get made on various games at various states of development....
Let's say the game does eventually come out. Do the missed deadlines, compromises, rushed things, taint the entire game experience? If it released would you even be able to enjoy it the same way as you might have if it hit all its deadlines (or at least most)? Would you, generalized you, be able to step back from the months of disappointment and judge the game strictly on its merits? Or is all this pre-release stuff part and parcel of the game experience and judgments about it?
You know, after having watched the internet develop since early 1990s, I've come to the conclusion that the social side of the internet is very toxic. Negativity, trolling and vomiting your traumas/mental problems/whatever on others is just... the norm. People are expected to live with it instead of treating others positively like in real life. Maybe it is partially because people unable to interact in real life pour all their social needs out here. Maybe it is because of the nerd fallacies regarding acceptance, where nerds accept behavior unacceptable elsewhere since they know themselves what exclusion is like.Or maybe it's just a difference in culture. People indigenous to communities, even those renowned for negativity (4chan, as an example) aren't really harmed by it. The harm comes from clashes between this mileau and that of modern western public culture, which is greatly concerned with maintaining a faįade of positivity.
Quote
So yeah, if I was a indie dev, I'd actually avoid interacting with fans too much. (Or alternatively, hire someone to do that interaction for me and try to avoid reading shit too much.) Support is great, but fanbois can make you blind to your faults while toxic community can poison your motivation.Yeah, being a large-scale public figure and maintaining a personal presence online isn't a helpful option to everyone, and a lot of naïve devs fall into a trap here. There's a lot of good to be gleaned from it, but doing so effectively takes skill and experience.
I'd be damn upset If I found out that Toady One hadn't been working on DF for 6 months.Honestly, I would be super concerned to the point that there's no room for anger. But that's a totally different situation, Toady has shown us that does put in work consistently, he's been doing it for a decade, and it's the focal point of his life.
I don't know how things work in your community, but where I'm from, if you pay protection you get protection. Of course no protection is perfect, especially if you're doing something illegal and want protection from the police, but you get a legitimate effort made.Kickstarter is whatever suits your current argument the best. They took 80,000 dollars of other people's money and have nothing to show for it. There is nowhere else in the universe but video game kickstarters that people would try to defend that....
protection money
...
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 01, 2016, 10:21:34 pm
Actually, I've never really seen the map editor / scenario editor / whatever. Were those actually working tools?
Yes, they were. Buggy, but functional.
So I hear this but I also hear this:
The map editor is a crude tile painter, the mod tools doesn't have features that Josh talked about and just boiled down to little more than an asset viewer and the scenario viewer doesn't exist along with the demo. Whenever it comes time to show the nuts and bolts of gameplay Josh gets all shy, presumably because it doesn't really exist in any kind of usable way.
So I mean it's kind of tough to credit Josh with actually having created working tools and the content he claims to have created.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 01, 2016, 10:59:12 pm
Post by: Malus on July 02, 2016, 01:28:14 am
At some point, I feel like you have a moral (if not legal) obligation to your backers to release the work you've done. I guess this is kind of the issue with crowdfunding -- the backers don't have any ownership over the product. If he released a demo that was playable -- even if it was kind of buggy or crashy, the features didn't all come together, whatever -- I'm pretty sure people would be singing a different tune. Alternatively, show the source code to some of the backers and demonstrate that there's some real gameplay logic, not just pretty mock-ups. And for the love of god if development ceases, just open the floodgates and release everything you have.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 02, 2016, 01:47:31 am
And for the love of god if development ceases, just open the floodgates and release everything you have.
I've seen quite a few people suggest, demand or ask that the assets and source code be released to the backers. It is highly unlikely that the assets made by 3rd party artists can be released into the public domain like that - the license for their use is almost certainly tied to this specific game. The same for the Unity store assets and modules/toolkits/frameworks - releasing those to the public would also be a breach of a licensing agreement. So it's a non-option to do this.
Post by: Malus on July 02, 2016, 03:42:07 am
I don't think I'd agree it's a "non-option" though obviously it depends on what the nature of the codebase is. If it's literally all cobbled together from scripts he bought off the Unity marketplace then you're right, but surely there's a substantial amount of code he's written and has complete ownership of, right? He doesn't need to put it into the public domain either: you can release source code and retain copyright over it. And he could certainly release the art assets, unless he has a really gnarly contract with the artists. He can't release those into the public domain, but he could release a "build" of the game to backers with the assets packaged alongside it, with all rights reserved just like any other game release, and then separately release the source code (third-party libraries notwithstanding), Doom/Quake-style.And for the love of god if development ceases, just open the floodgates and release everything you have.
I've seen quite a few people suggest, demand or ask that the assets and source code be released to the backers. It is highly unlikely that the assets made by 3rd party artists can be released into the public domain like that - the license for their use is almost certainly tied to this specific game. The same for the Unity store assets and modules/toolkits/frameworks - releasing those to the public would also be a breach of a licensing agreement. So it's a non-option to do this.
As far as I know, no one's even seen the source code so it's impossible to know what the situation is. If parts of the code are plagiarized, then I can even understand why he might not be willing to show off any of it publicly. But at this point, releasing even just scraps of this product that's been in development for 2 years would be an immense show of good faith toward the community that's supported him financially for so long.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 02, 2016, 04:07:44 am
Let us know if the unban deal goes okay or if things go to shit again. Even if the details are personal, a "things are good" or "things are not good" is still useful information.
If things go the way the developer has descripted in his mail then it wouldnīt be the outcome I would have liked, but I would call it "acceptable" for me personaly.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2016, 06:56:52 am
Wouldn't it be possible to include a license with the release stating that the assets are only for use with the game? You can get at most game assets once you buy a game anyway, it isn't that hard to extract them but you're still not allowed to reuse them without permissionAnd for the love of god if development ceases, just open the floodgates and release everything you have.
I've seen quite a few people suggest, demand or ask that the assets and source code be released to the backers. It is highly unlikely that the assets made by 3rd party artists can be released into the public domain like that - the license for their use is almost certainly tied to this specific game. The same for the Unity store assets and modules/toolkits/frameworks - releasing those to the public would also be a breach of a licensing agreement. So it's a non-option to do this.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 02, 2016, 07:31:15 am
Wouldn't it be possible to include a license with the release stating that the assets are only for use with the game? You can get at most game assets once you buy a game anyway, it isn't that hard to extract them but you're still not allowed to reuse them without permission
The Unity Asset Store license agreement has this:
"Licensor grants to the END-USER a non-exclusive, worldwide, and perpetu- al license to the Asset to integrate Assets only as incorporated and embed- ded components of electronic games and interactive media and distribute such electronic game and interactive media. END-USER may otherwise not reproduce, distribute, sublicense, rent, lease or lend the Assets."
That means that assets cannot be distributed as image files, even with a clause they can only be used with the supplied source code. When art is commissioned directly there is usually a similar clause. Open sourcing a tanking project will almost invariably require stripping all 3rd party assets from the project before releasing. Note that this clause also includes various libraries and source code files.
From the screenshots and videos I've seen, that means that in practice open sourcing TWS would not be legal without removing large amounts of content. That's not a particular pleasant task to spend a lot of time on, for a developer who is probably already quite down for obvious reasons.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2016, 07:44:25 am
Post by: Farce on July 02, 2016, 05:23:16 pm
Though, my approach to Kickstarters has kinda always been 'pay the money and check back in a year or two, and hope the gamble paid off', so. It's taking longer than predicted or expected for That Which Sleeps, but it's still like one of the things I'm anticipating the most.
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2016, 05:33:58 pm
Post by: sirvente on July 02, 2016, 05:34:21 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2016, 05:49:15 pm
Post by: sirvente on July 02, 2016, 05:55:47 pm
Post by: Xantalos on July 02, 2016, 06:07:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2016, 06:08:34 pm
I didn't say it was the case that 2014 That Which Sleeps was done but for the art. I'm pretty sure the game was completely unplayable and Josh was lying to someone, us or himself or both when he claimed he had an almost finished product at hand.
You mean done before he added in a metric fuck ton of stretch goals? That done? I don't doubt he overestimated his abilities and his game's completeness. But let's at least try to be partially fair here.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2016, 06:27:14 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 02, 2016, 06:49:12 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2016, 06:51:46 pm
Note to self: if I ever make a game kickstarter, no fucking stretch goals.Or... implement the stretch goals after you finish the basic product.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on July 02, 2016, 06:52:23 pm
Note to self: if I ever make a game kickstarter, no fucking stretch goals.Then it will likely not be finished, from my experience.
Post by: Xantalos on July 02, 2016, 07:14:56 pm
But hindsight 20/20 and all that.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 02, 2016, 07:45:07 pm
That is, they could have done this if the claims of having an almost ready product were true. Given the status of affairs, it sounds more and more likely that it was all zezenako gorotz from day one. I'm going to be charitable and say that maybe they overrated both how operational their original product was to begin with, and what kind of stretch goals were they actually able to pull off.
TBH, the whole TWS (and Cult before it. And Nekro, to a lesser extent -insofar Nekro is actually playable, despite the drama surrounding it's removal from Steam-) experience serves as a reminder of why it's a good idea to stay clear of kickstarters, specially KS done by amateurs/unknowns (these should be avoided like the plague, in fact). Even if it starts in good faith odds are the whole thing will go down in flames
Post by: nenjin on July 02, 2016, 08:18:55 pm
Post by: Zangi on July 02, 2016, 11:34:39 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2016, 11:39:09 pm
Post by: Farce on July 03, 2016, 03:35:32 am
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 03, 2016, 06:08:42 am
Thanks for your help.
Post by: Serenseven on July 03, 2016, 06:53:10 am
I suppose I could set it up so that it does, but since everyone is convinced the game is dead, I don't see why I should expend the effort.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 03, 2016, 06:55:42 am
The forum software by default gives no visible indication when someone is banned.with that kind of attitude it may as well be dead. Oh well
I suppose I could set it up so that it does, but since everyone is convinced the game is dead, I don't see why I should expend the effort.
Post by: Serenseven on July 03, 2016, 06:58:31 am
And if you had put up with the amount of bullsh*t I have over the past two years, you'd be bitter, too.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 03, 2016, 07:00:25 am
Post by: Serenseven on July 03, 2016, 07:16:49 am
Contrary to assertions earlier in this thread, I have not resigned the moderatorship. I'm just taking a break for a bit. Since I have a bunch of travel ahead of me this month, it would have happened anyway, even without the recent uproar.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 03, 2016, 08:00:49 am
Contrary to assertions earlier in this thread, I have not resigned the moderatorship. I'm just taking a break for a bit. Since I have a bunch of travel ahead of me this month, it would have happened anyway, even without the recent uproar.
Guess I missunderstood you then. Because your wording made it seem like you would only go back to moderating once they showed some actual consistend gameplay, which I interpreted that you resign from your moderation work for now.
For everyone else: I can confirm that itīs no his fault the forum has gone bitter. He was supportive and neutral for a very long time as a moderator and has only gone bitter the last few weeks or so following events that werenīt his fault. He even acted as a messenger that got us some rare informations out of Josh when Josh stopped posting. Without him we would know a lot less.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 03, 2016, 10:50:36 am
More accurately, stay clear of kickstarters if you are not into gambling and/or expect a 'payoff' 100% of the time.
I love that people are posting crap like this on page 149 of a thread about a kickstarter that began with the developers saying "we have a working game."
This is not your ordinary "oh, delays" thing. This the developer(s) lying through their teeth about a game that had supposedly already made but in reality didn't exist.
Post by: Serenseven on July 03, 2016, 11:12:26 am
Guess I missunderstood you then. Because your wording made it seem like you would only go back to moderating once they showed some actual consistend gameplay, which I interpreted that you resign from your moderation work for now.
No, you got it right, you just went one step further than I did. I'm still a moderator, I'm just temporarily not moderating, on the grounds that until one of the dinos does something to prove the existence of the game (like releasing a "working" build, the definition of "working" being very generous), I don't feel that I'm obligated to put in any more effort on their behalf. Once I'm satisfied that I can say "there is a game, and this is what it looks like" without worrying that it might be a lie, then I'll start moderating actively again.
This the developer(s) lying through their teeth about a game that had supposedly already made but in reality didn't exist.
The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did. And if the kickstarter had just barely cleared, or had only reached the first or second stretch goal (i.e., did not make the "Endless Simulation" and "Procedural Generation" goals), it would have long ago had its art sexed up, Religion and/or Rival Old Ones added, and been released ages ago. But it never would have supported the endless/procedural games.
The post-kickstarter version (TWS 2.0) basically had to be rebuilt from scratch to enable support for all the stretch goals. They needed new maps, new hexes, new AI, new everything. This very quickly ran into trouble, as we all know, so I won't repeat it here. But it had nothing to do with whether TWS 1.0 existed or not.
Looking back, what should have probably happened was KDG should have gotten the art together, added Religion, and released that as the "beta" (in other words, continued taking the TWS 1.0 path as originally planned) while working on TWS 2.0 to implement the harder stretch goals. We might still have had these lengthy delays, but at least there would have been no question as to whether a game existed or not - we would be playing it. Of course, that's easy for me to say now: I have both the benefit of hindsight and of not being the one actually trying to write the software.
Post by: JumpingJack on July 03, 2016, 11:40:14 am
The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did. And if the kickstarter had just barely cleared, or had only reached the first or second stretch goal (i.e., did not make the "Endless Simulation" and "Procedural Generation" goals), it would have long ago had its art sexed up, Religion and/or Rival Old Ones added, and been released ages ago. But it never would have supported the endless/procedural games.
The post-kickstarter version (TWS 2.0) basically had to be rebuilt from scratch to enable support for all the stretch goals. They needed new maps, new hexes, new AI, new everything. This very quickly ran into trouble, as we all know, so I won't repeat it here. But it had nothing to do with whether TWS 1.0 existed or not.
Looking back, what should have probably happened was KDG should have gotten the art together, added Religion, and released that as the "beta" (in other words, continued taking the TWS 1.0 path as originally planned) while working on TWS 2.0 to implement the harder stretch goals. We might still have had these lengthy delays, but at least there would have been no question as to whether a game existed or not - we would be playing it. Of course, that's easy for me to say now: I have both the benefit of hindsight and of not being the one actually trying to write the software.
I like extra features and added shininess as much as the next guy, but presuming that this is how it all went down, this just goes to show how ruinous feature-creep can be. Paradoxically planned feature-creep, at that.
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 03, 2016, 02:16:14 pm
The reality is that the dev should not promise stretch goals they haven't specced out. But that's probably too idealistic, so the second-best is for devs to realize that things will always be far better received if the way a difficult-bordering-impossible stretch goal is "fulfilled" is with an update saying this feature has been cut, followed by a reasonably thorough explanation as to why.
Post by: Neonivek on July 03, 2016, 04:49:34 pm
Post by: nenjin on July 03, 2016, 05:06:13 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 03, 2016, 05:15:58 pm
I honestly don't think the Stretch goals is what is seriously slowing the game down (the only one of any supreme effort is the demons), afterall most of the stretch goals are just additional old ones and minions... and to my knowledge the issue the game is running into isn't that there is too much stuff to implement but rather that the AI doesn't work yet.
Well, yeah, but the additional old ones and minions were already specced out. Maybe not completely, but enough to know that it'll take roughly x hours to create, with a possible additional amount that's not too difficult to estimate based on new features.
Nah, the biggest problems were procedural generation and endless simulation. Those two stretch goals were the driving forced behind the massive system overhaul a few years ago. And while it hasn't been explicitly said, it seems reasonable to blame the current problems on that overhaul and it's lofty goals - especially if we accept that the pre-overhaul version was playable. Maybe not perfect, but playable. And it'd make sense, too - procedural generation and endless simulation both require significant generalizations of an AI from what would be required with a fixed timespan and scenario. And we do know that the AI is the main stumbling block.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 03, 2016, 05:17:28 pm
I say nay. Because if it did exist, they would have given that to the backers. Either as a "beta", or honestly admitting that the stretch goals were getting postponed because of whatever.
The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did.
I think that at best they had a half-finished product and both their ability to finish it, and their ability to actually improve upon it.
Post by: Neonivek on July 03, 2016, 05:34:19 pm
I honestly don't think the Stretch goals is what is seriously slowing the game down (the only one of any supreme effort is the demons), afterall most of the stretch goals are just additional old ones and minions... and to my knowledge the issue the game is running into isn't that there is too much stuff to implement but rather that the AI doesn't work yet.
Well, yeah, but the additional old ones and minions were already specced out. Maybe not completely, but enough to know that it'll take roughly x hours to create, with a possible additional amount that's not too difficult to estimate based on new features.
Nah, the biggest problems were procedural generation and endless simulation. Those two stretch goals were the driving forced behind the massive system overhaul a few years ago. And while it hasn't been explicitly said, it seems reasonable to blame the current problems on that overhaul and it's lofty goals - especially if we accept that the pre-overhaul version was playable. Maybe not perfect, but playable. And it'd make sense, too - procedural generation and endless simulation both require significant generalizations of an AI from what would be required with a fixed timespan and scenario. And we do know that the AI is the main stumbling block.
I completely forgot about those.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 04, 2016, 03:59:04 am
After four emails with KDG I am unbanned again. I am still not sure who exactly banned me in the first place (I assume Fen, but canīt say for sure) and I am not entirely sure who unbanned me (since I donīt know if Fen or Josh answer the mails), but for now I am back in the loop. If thatīs something to be happy for only time will tell.
Post by: Avaris on July 10, 2016, 06:36:11 am
Oh well, I guess I will go lurk Starsector development and forget about this project. I was really hopeful too, until the forum purge and all that crap...
Post by: Serenseven on July 10, 2016, 06:53:11 am
Quote from: Fenicks
Met last night after I got off work and again today. Two productive meetings - more stuff happening and we've both agreed to work on getting something that resembles some sort of technical alpha / preview something or other just to try to get a base out in people's hands that can be used as a stepping stone for progress.
So whatever, non update, but progress is being made on Joshes side and we've agreed on the path that some of you suggested to get some pre beta asset out there.
Post by: Avaris on July 10, 2016, 07:26:35 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 10, 2016, 08:50:22 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 10, 2016, 10:23:38 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 10, 2016, 02:00:29 pm
I want to believe but...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2016, 02:06:46 pm
I want to believe but...
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 10, 2016, 04:37:15 pm
Post by: Culise on July 10, 2016, 05:10:11 pm
Watching this game's progress has been a roller coaster, but at least that looks like light at the end of the tunnel.Yes, there certainly is (http://i.imgur.com/1sIU0xT.jpg).
But in seriousness, I am looking forward to at least seeing what results. I'm honestly not expecting much, but I don't think it'll be the end of the world if the project ends up going off the rails.
Post by: JumpingJack on July 10, 2016, 10:28:11 pm
Watch the puns; we need to keep things on track.Watching this game's progress has been a roller coaster, but at least that looks like light at the end of the tunnel.Yes, there certainly is (http://i.imgur.com/1sIU0xT.jpg).
But in seriousness, I am looking forward to at least seeing what results. I'm honestly not expecting much, but I don't think it'll be the end of the world if the project ends up going off the rails.
Post by: Zangi on July 11, 2016, 03:05:05 am
Post by: TempAcc on July 11, 2016, 09:10:55 am
Post by: birdy51 on July 11, 2016, 09:52:37 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 11, 2016, 09:59:10 am
Come on guys. We can conduct ourselves better than this. Remember our training. I don't want to see this thread get railroaded into a direction we don't want.Now you're just jumping on the bandwagon.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on July 11, 2016, 10:56:01 am
Post by: sirvente on July 19, 2016, 01:50:06 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 19, 2016, 01:59:01 pm
And in other news, the relentless onslaught of the remaining posters has driven Sean - the most active moderator and community member - away. Definitely not a good sign as far as morale is concerned, but it does hammer home that That Which Sleeps has been well-worth its price for the drama alone. It's the gift that keeps on giving, in that regard... though whether that's a good thing or not is up for debate.
(Sean, I know you have an account here. I can completely understand why you resigned, and I sympathize. This is probably a little bit painful for you)
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 19, 2016, 02:00:56 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2016, 02:13:48 pm
Post by: i2amroy on July 19, 2016, 02:34:03 pm
That's victim blaming you knowEh there's a difference between complaining because you feel wronged (even angily complaining) and doing so in a way that is bad enough to cause effects. It would be like if a post office lost a bunch of paycheck mail and people were angry; people complaining and even yelling would be totally justified in that type of situation, but people forming a rioting crowd so large that it stops the post office from being able to get the mail trucks in/out of the post office wouldn't be justified. In the same way complaining would be justified, but flaming and attacks or other things that a moderator actively needs to deal with? Not so much.
Post by: ndkid on July 19, 2016, 03:03:53 pm
Still, we get more communication from TWS than we do from the Net Gain guy, who hasn't managed to say anything in about a year. I honestly wish his backers had some of the vitrol TWS does, because he seems to be getting to just quietly pocket the money he got from his KS without anyone even raising a stink. (A smaller amount of money, I grant.)
Post by: Cthulhu on July 19, 2016, 03:09:27 pm
That's victim blaming you knowEh there's a difference between complaining because you feel wronged (even angily complaining) and doing so in a way that is bad enough to cause effects. It would be like if a post office lost a bunch of paycheck mail and people were angry; people complaining and even yelling would be totally justified in that type of situation, but people forming a rioting crowd so large that it stops the post office from being able to get the mail trucks in/out of the post office wouldn't be justified. In the same way complaining would be justified, but flaming and attacks or other things that a moderator actively needs to deal with? Not so much.
God forbid we feel wronged and respond in a way that actually does something.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 03:23:14 pm
Apparently KDG are planning on releasing what they actually have by august. As this involves ripping even more out of the build Fenicks poked with a stick I'm not sure why it'd take so long or even why they'd bother.
That's not at all what he said. What he said was, if there wasn't a technical preview by the end of August, then he would officially admit the project was dead.
Post by: Hanzoku on July 19, 2016, 03:36:19 pm
That's victim blaming you knowEh there's a difference between complaining because you feel wronged (even angily complaining) and doing so in a way that is bad enough to cause effects. It would be like if a post office lost a bunch of paycheck mail and people were angry; people complaining and even yelling would be totally justified in that type of situation, but people forming a rioting crowd so large that it stops the post office from being able to get the mail trucks in/out of the post office wouldn't be justified. In the same way complaining would be justified, but flaming and attacks or other things that a moderator actively needs to deal with? Not so much.
God forbid we feel wronged and respond in a way that actually does something.
And as an added bonus, if all the complaining, attacks and threats of lawsuits drives the creator into abandoning the project, you can feel vindicated that all your complaints did something!
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 03:41:05 pm
And as an added bonus, if all the complaining, attacks and threats of lawsuits drives the creator into abandoning the project, you can feel vindicated that all your complaints did something!
A lawsuit would only make sense if the project were actually a fraud that was never honestly intended to release anything. Which means there was never anything to "abandon" in the first place; it was always a scam.
Post by: nenjin on July 19, 2016, 04:01:36 pm
Post by: Zangi on July 19, 2016, 04:10:58 pm
Traitors within our midsts now doggedly pursue the priests who had given their dedication to the awakening of That Which Sleeps.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 19, 2016, 04:42:51 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2016, 04:51:12 pm
That's victim blaming you know
Victim Blaming isn't a flaw and fits rather nicely into logic.
The reason "Victim Blaming" has such a hefty negative connotation to the extent that people will bend over backwards to avoid it... Is because sometimes it is used in situations where the cause doesn't justify the effect... "She was wearing provocative clothes so she deserved to be smacked" where, no... It doesn't matter what she was wearing there is no justification for how she was treated. Hence the desire to create a name for that sort of victim blaming called "Victim Blaming".
In otherwords Victim Blaming has become the "Support our troops" moniker. Where you are meant to shut off all sense... usually to shut down arguments through association. Even though they started off being outright positive.
Having someone being the instrument of their own demise and it being their own dang fault is not only logical but even the courts agree this is a thing (so yes... the courts accept victim blaming).
Having the people who are pissed at how long the game is taking... Through their sheer amount of complaining genuinely risk the game not coming out as "Ironic" has some merit.
Though frankly any developer worth their salt should tune that out... and if the developer did shut down... Why would it be their fault.
Post by: sirvente on July 19, 2016, 05:22:07 pm
Post by: TempAcc on July 19, 2016, 05:26:04 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on July 19, 2016, 05:36:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2016, 05:42:46 pm
I continue to be genuinely amazed by the pettiness and entitlement displayed by people on the internet. People who've donated as much as $300- possibly a full days work! People who use the amount other unrelated people have contributed to justify their own outrage over a failed project that was never guaranteed to succeed. People who have kept updated and in the know about something for over a year in order that they may continually complain about it. I have yet to run into this behaviour offline, but maybe I'm lucky.
Once again... Don't use the term "Entitled" when referring to people who are LITERALLY entitled.
Post by: sirvente on July 19, 2016, 05:46:56 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on July 19, 2016, 05:54:15 pm
I continue to be genuinely amazed by the pettiness and entitlement displayed by people on the internet. People who've donated as much as $300- possibly a full days work! People who use the amount other unrelated people have contributed to justify their own outrage over a failed project that was never guaranteed to succeed. People who have kept updated and in the know about something for over a year in order that they may continually complain about it. I have yet to run into this behaviour offline, but maybe I'm lucky.
Once again... Don't use the term "Entitled" when referring to people who are LITERALLY entitled.
We gambled and lost. I don't throw a tantrum at the casino when it comes up red instead of black, and I'm not entitled to a winning result.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2016, 06:11:17 pm
We gambled and lost. I don't throw a tantrum at the casino when it comes up red instead of black, and I'm not entitled to a winning result.
False equivocasy.
Using the Casino example... This would be the equivalent of putting a coin in for the slot machine... and it doesn't start, eating your coin.
End result is the same either way...
---
Once again... it isn't a donation, it isn't a pre-order. You are literally funding the game. You are a "producer" so to speak.
You think people are bad? You think people are unruly entitled brats? Well welcome to the real world where the person paying you can actually veto your decisions.
The GOOD part about Kickstarter is that it gives the artist a LOT of freedom to make their product without having someone overlooking and altering their work... AND it lets you put "Dollar votes" towards games you like without a producer needing to go "But do people really want this?"
---
And also Entitled brats?
May I remind you that the ONLY input people have... is their words.
Producers actually have a say... Kickstarter's system ensures they do not. The fact that people can talk and complain all they want is a fair compromise.
---
I guess it is to say... "WHAAAA! People are entitled because their opinion is different then mine!" is pretty much what is going on here.
Since once again... These people are LITERALLY Entitled. Not figuratively, morally, or philosophically. They are literally and legally entitled. There is literally a contract that has been signed that you HAVE to sign that makes them entitled.
Post by: nenjin on July 19, 2016, 06:16:13 pm
You're an investor, looking for a non-monetary return on your investment. Investment is a risky business even when you don't stand to make money as your ROI. We're investors who are not giving on an annual fee to see the project to completion. We're investors who have given all they will give and are now just waiting for it to succeed or fail. Despite all the "couldn't have happened without you"s, we are now completely secondary to actual process of the game being worked on, finished and sold.
And gamers would not be the first investors in history to get burned with little to no recourse for it. Let's not confuse how important we are in the scope of this.
Post by: sirvente on July 19, 2016, 06:24:08 pm
Post by: TempAcc on July 19, 2016, 06:55:54 pm
Sound familiar? Its something that has been observed in a fair bit of kickstarter projects by now. (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/undelivered-kickstarter-project-meets-washingtons-wrath/)
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 19, 2016, 06:56:28 pm
That's victim blaming you knowYou're perfectly well within your rights to complain about something if you feel like you've been wronged, but you should respond in a manner that won't stop the people from fixing what is wrong. It's like you feel like you've been wronged because your landlord wouldn't fix your sink for a whole year, so you've decided not to let him in the apartment to fix it now that he wants to try. Or heckling him while he's doing it, so he's so distracted he screws up
Post by: JumpingJack on July 19, 2016, 08:13:07 pm
Honestly, in my opinion, if TWS ends up not bearing fruit, the biggest loss will be the modding potential it offered. I've had quite a few ideas for campaigns lined up for some time, and I can't think of a single other game at the moment that could serve as a replacement for this one.
I continue to be genuinely amazed by the pettiness and entitlement displayed by people on the internet. People who've donated as much as $300- possibly a full days work! People who use the amount other unrelated people have contributed to justify their own outrage over a failed project that was never guaranteed to succeed. People who have kept updated and in the know about something for over a year in order that they may continually complain about it. I have yet to run into this behaviour offline, but maybe I'm lucky.From what I've heard, there were in fact large stretches of time without any communication regarding progress. Not sure exactly how long, but eh. And yes, you're quite lucky, as I can't turn on the news without seeing a critical mass of people who think they're entitled to something or other.
Getting close to Godwins law in the main thread over at KDG, so... ugh.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 19, 2016, 10:07:06 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 19, 2016, 11:03:16 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2016, 11:25:24 pm
It's a donation and always has been. They're called "rewards", not "products".
Still under the obligation to use that money towards producing the product they are advertised to the best of their ability.
EVEN if the person funding it has no promise of a reward.
Which makes Kickstarters different from most charities... Since charities are under no obligation to actually do what they set out to do (and quite often... they don't or do bare minimum).
So a kickstarter cannot, for example, offer superfluous rewards... then take the rest of the money and not actually create the product.
Post by: sirvente on July 20, 2016, 01:21:31 am
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 20, 2016, 04:08:22 am
I would never fault a project for failing to deliver, being late, changing direction or simply slashing parts of the design or stretch goals. However, dishonesty, marketing hype and poor communication is a general problem in indie game crowdfunding. There are so many awesome things about the TWS project, but I am a bit disappointed they marred this with a strangely dishonest and opaque development process. A shame really - even being honest about their actual progress, they could easily have had a very successful Kickstarter. Or they could've waited a year or two and worked on actually having the beta they were promising, and not playing catch-up once they got funded.
In my opinion, this is a sad story about a great idea that fell flat due to developers underestimating the work required to actually make the game - and the work required to keep interacting and informing the fans and backers. There is probably also an element of flat out dishonesty - but I am sure this was never with a nefarious intent, I think they did expect to deliver within the promised time frame, but once they failed, there was really no way to explain it out without admitting the initial deception.
Post by: TempAcc on July 20, 2016, 07:47:05 am
Plus, just like Ludorum Rex pointed out, nobody is ~lol heckling the dev~ for possibly failing to deliver, since that is not the problem. A lot of funded projects fail and their managers/devs come out and tell people about it. Everyone gets sad, sure, but thats the gist of it.
The problem is completely and utterly failing at basic project communication, creating a hype for it by presenting the project as mostly working then basically going full radio silence then comming out with the fact he doesnt have a working version up and that the people he used to actualy keep in touch with the community actualy never even saw the game that was presented in the videos. Whats worse is that he actualy threw out a timeframe for it, failed to deliver, and then instead of admitting that he couldn't deliver things anytime soon and showing people the real status of things, he just kind of kept throwing out timeframes and failing them to the point he alienated a huge chunk of the community.
Nobody knew what the hell was happening. Nobody could go "hey, X and Y is happening to the project, yea, it sucks, but the guy is trying" because it was like the guy just kinda fell out of the edge of the world and even the people who supposedly had some contact with him would have no answers. People were actualy more worried about the dev himself rather than the project for a good while.
It is quite reasonable for the community to keep getting more and more skeptic about all of it considering how events unfolded. Remember that one guy who asked for a refund and make a blog post about how he was suspicious of the whole thing? Almost the entire community didn't agree with him and still put faith in the project. You'd think that a project manager would go "hey, this happened, maybe I should try to do some sort of damage control and actualy talk to the community now and show them what problems I'm facing", except that didn't happen until MUCH later, and sudden that one refund guy started to seem more and more reasonable since the dev just kept silent like a guilty child.
Post by: ndkid on July 20, 2016, 09:33:26 am
It's a donation and always has been. They're called "rewards", not "products".If a pledge drive told me that donating $50 would get me a t-shirt, and they tell me how cool the t-shirt is, and how there's never been a t-shirt like it, so I donate money, and they never send me the t-shirt, I would be pissed, and I'd probably be willing to participate in a class action lawsuit over it. This is worse, because most donations are to non-profits that I can get a tax break for... KS doesn't even give me that.
Having said that, the fact that any of us are still bickering over what backing a Kickstarter project this many years after Kickstarter launched is impressive. There's no sign that social norms around crowdsourcing are coalescing toward either pole, and, at least in the US, when legal action has been sought, the result has differed greatly by how the DA/BBB/whatever want to proceed. As far as I can tell, when those state actors have gotten involved, no KS has held their ground... they've capitulated to make the problem go away. No state or federal legislature in the US is in a hurry to codify policy around crowdsourcing. My point being: this difference of opinion isn't going away anytime soon. We can keep having the same arguments over and over about the moral, social, and legal rights and responsibilities of backers and artists, but, when we do so, we should at least have the self-awareness that we're doing so to hear ourselves talk, and not to change minds. (That's true of my first paragraph, above; this paragraph, I really am trying to change minds.)
Post by: Egan_BW on July 20, 2016, 10:00:54 am
Suing a non-profit that you donated to seems really dishonest to me. If you're willing to sue them, then why did you donate to them in the first place? just to get a shirt? If that was your aim, why didn't you actually just buy a shirt? This is obviously not completely analogous to a game kickstarter, but it sums up my opinion.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on July 20, 2016, 10:02:50 am
Post by: Egan_BW on July 20, 2016, 10:13:53 am
Post by: ndkid on July 20, 2016, 11:14:42 am
Well, in saying your second paragraph, don't expect me to ignore your first. :PBecause they offered me a shirt that was different and better and more to my liking than the shirts on the open market. I grant, if they were just offering a shirt that was already available on the open market, there'd be no reason to make the donation. But if they offer me a "gift" or "reward" or "consideration" for my donation, they can keep calling it a donation all they want, but we've moved into a quid pro quo.
Suing a non-profit that you donated to seems really dishonest to me. If you're willing to sue them, then why did you donate to them in the first place? just to get a shirt? If that was your aim, why didn't you actually just buy a shirt? This is obviously not completely analogous to a game kickstarter, but it sums up my opinion.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 20, 2016, 12:19:13 pm
Suing a non-profit that you donated to seems really dishonest to me. If you're willing to sue them, then why did you donate to them in the first place? just to get a shirt? If that was your aim, why didn't you actually just buy a shirt? This is obviously not completely analogous to a game kickstarter, but it sums up my opinion.
I generally approach crowdfunding contributions as no-strings-attached donations, like you and many others. However, this is not how Kickstarter presents crowdfunding. Under the old set (pre-2014) there was actually this stipulation:
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
This is extremely harsh for projects where the reward is the end result of the project. A t-shirt, art book or soundtrack can be delivered even if a project fails, but it is very difficult to deliver a game or gadget that for whatever reasons the project simply could not complete.
I guess this is why it was changed to the current "Accountability" section of the Terms of Use. This section is much softer, but does require the developer to maintain a high standard of communication, disclosing financial information (ie how the backer funds were spent), and to maintain complete honesty in all communications to backers.
Both under the old and new Terms of Use, I find it perfectly reasonable why some people would have a different angle than you and me. Kickstarter very clearly does not present itself as a platform for no-strings-attached donations. In fact they expressly state that there is accountability.
Personally, the only privilege I require for my contribution to a project is the right to bitch and moan if the project doesn't uphold reasonable ethical standards. But on the other hand, consumer protection laws (and contract law) exist for very serious reasons. An agreement has to matter if the weakest actors in an economy are to be protected. Crowdfunding is no exception to the rule of law. Thus, I strongly believe authorities and backers have a right to take legal action when an agreement is broken.
But in this specific case: I think any kind of legal action against KDG would be absurd, and a case of kicking someone who is already down. However, backers have every right to be angry, upset and/or sad at the developers. Not for lack of progress or missing deadlines. But for not adhering to a higher standard of communication.
In the end (and that's specific to this project), my disappointment is primarily with Kickstarter and how they present themselves as something they are not. In practice there is zero accountability, and that should be made very clear to backers. It is my opinion that Kickstarter itself is misrepresenting the nature of their platform, and this is at the core of disagreements such as the one in the previous couple of posts.
Post by: jhxmt on July 20, 2016, 12:23:53 pm
Since charities are under no obligation to actually do what they set out to do (and quite often... they don't or do bare minimum).
Not sure whether this is different across the Atlantic, but in the UK charities are under an obligation to run themselves in a way that supports their stated objectives (see the Charity Commission's website (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/charity-commission) for more info).
Re: the whole Kickstarter is a charity/investment/purchase debate - currently, I don't think it's any of those things. Currently it's Kickstarter. Charity donations, investments, and purchases have all been tested time and time again in multiple legal settings, with hundreds and thousands of court decisions feeding into our understanding of what they are. I don't think Kickstarter's got to that stage yet. At the moment, it's Kickstarter. Caveated "I Am Not A Lawyer" here, obviously.
I basically treat Kickstarter projects like investments that I'm willing to see go bust. I do my research ahead of time, but I accept that they're at the high end of my risk curve - and I expect the reward/level-of-backing balance to reflect that. "If I spend $10, I might get a game (50% probability) versus I might lose my money (50% probability)" means that I'm expecting the game to be worth at least $20 to me personally before I'm willing to go for it. Once I've paid in, I then don't care (in theory) which way it goes.
Of course in practice I'd rather I got the game than lost the $10. :P Just like I'd rather my investments grew 40% in a year rather than dropping 40%. But if I've accepted the probability of losing it, then I'm okay with that outcome - it was priced in, effectively.
Edit: ninja'd, L.Rex has some good points re Kickstarter's own presentation of themselves.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 12:54:24 pm
It is very easy to become a filthy rich owner of a charity this way. Non-Profit only means the COMPANY can't make a profit.
AND!!! Yeah the UK isn't different. In fact though the reports are conflicting they could be even worse then the United States.
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 20, 2016, 01:01:34 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 01:04:18 pm
The term doesn't even mean that much. Your non-profit company can make a profit as long as you can show that its primary purpose is something besides profit, like education. Though I'll admit I don't know how strict the standards you have to meet are.
From what I researched Non-profit only means they don't pay out to share holders.
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 20, 2016, 01:11:45 pm
In the end (and that's specific to this project), my disappointment is primarily with Kickstarter and how they present themselves as something they are not. In practice there is zero accountability, and that should be made very clear to backers. It is my opinion that Kickstarter itself is misrepresenting the nature of their platform, and this is at the core of disagreements such as the one in the previous couple of posts.
I'm not even sure that's Kickstarter's fault. I suspect that, if they could, the way the present themselves is exactly how they'd like things to go. Unfortunately, though, Kickstarter themselves doesn't really have any teeth... the best they can do is extract a promise from the project creator that a project will follow those guidelines (the terms of use), but if a project promptly fails to do so after being funded... well... there's not much Kickstarter can do. Kickstarter can't force the money to be returned, and for both business and liability reasons injecting themselves into that struggle by refunding backers themselves and going after the creator would be monumentally stupid. The best they can do is remove a project from the website, but that just acts in the creator's favor by removing record of a broken promise and removing a place backers can complain.
Then there aren't any real legal teeth yet, as there's little precedent for something like Kickstarter, and funding those teeth by dragging a creator to court and creating precedent is going to be cost-prohibitive at best and... you get this mess.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 01:16:28 pm
Sure they themselves have little legal power over the projects within them... But the contracts they laid out is what allows the funders to sue.
Post by: sirvente on July 20, 2016, 01:36:50 pm
Charity offers a shirt if you give them moneywhy do you put special moral burdens on the consumer?
Give them money
Don't get a shirt
If you take against this you're the dishonest one
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 20, 2016, 01:58:00 pm
Some here argue I'm supposed to take funding a KS game as either charity or gambling. I don't, and I won't. I don't have enough time or motivation to chase the developers over a couple of bucks, but I don't think that what they did should be regarded as an expected or normal outcome, and I won't begrudge others the right to voice their displeasure at them.
For me the moral of this story (and other similar ones) is that kickstarter is a lousy, lousy, system, with little to no security and an extremely uneven burden of power, and that you should be wary of funding anyone who is not tried&true (and even that is being far more generous than I feel the system deserves).
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 20, 2016, 02:17:21 pm
Quote
We take our responsibility as Kickstarter's stewards very seriously. It's our job to provide a system deserving of your trust by proactively screening for potential problems, by investigating issues brought to us by our community, and by still being exceedingly clear that even with these steps not every project will go as planned.
Our goal is to provide a safe and trusted platform where people are honest and open with one another as they collaborate to bring creative projects to life.
To a lot of people that is going to read like Kickstarter is doing something actively to make sure projects abide by the Terms of Use. Consumer laws and business culture varies from country to country, so while the Anglo-Saxon countries see the route of litigation as a normal thing for a consumer to pursue, that is completely alien to a lot of other cultures.
I think Kickstarter is being dishonest when they claim to screen for problems, have Terms of Use that are practically unenforceable, and are much more hands-off than they present themselves. If they want to be a safe and trusted platform, they need to improve communication and probably also screen their projects better.
When only 33% of all computer game Kickstarters manage to deliver something, that is an important piece of information to give consumers. They are a business and they take a cut of the funding - that gives them some responsibility to do more than deliver legal ammunition to slighted backers.
Crowdfunding is a fantastic opportunity for new and interesting projects to get funding, but I fear that in the long run this will be ruined if the expectations are not very clear and shared by all. I am optimistic that it will end up in a good place, but I really hope the platforms improve and get more active in promoting high ethical standards.
Post by: umiman on July 20, 2016, 02:25:50 pm
So I'm going to be doing it now for real.
Post by: Xgamer4 on July 20, 2016, 02:47:24 pm
QuoteWe take our responsibility as Kickstarter's stewards very seriously. It's our job to provide a system deserving of your trust by proactively screening for potential problems, by investigating issues brought to us by our community, and by still being exceedingly clear that even with these steps not every project will go as planned.
Our goal is to provide a safe and trusted platform where people are honest and open with one another as they collaborate to bring creative projects to life.
To a lot of people that is going to read like Kickstarter is doing something actively to make sure projects abide by the Terms of Use. Consumer laws and business culture varies from country to country, so while the Anglo-Saxon countries see the route of litigation as a normal thing for a consumer to pursue, that is completely alien to a lot of other cultures.
I think Kickstarter is being dishonest when they claim to screen for problems, have Terms of Use that are practically unenforceable, and are much more hands-off than they present themselves. If they want to be a safe and trusted platform, they need to improve communication and probably also screen their projects better.
When only 33% of all computer game Kickstarters manage to deliver something, that is an important piece of information to give consumers. They are a business and they take a cut of the funding - that gives them some responsibility to do more than deliver legal ammunition to slighted backers.
Two things:
1) Are they not doing anything? Every Kickstarter I've seen, barring a few exceptions that tend to get fail spectacularly and/or get called out, have a presentation that suggests they creators are willing and capable. There's only so much Kickstarter can do to sanity check a project, and Kickstarter certainly can't see the future. At the very least, the vast majority of projects that reach the site at least present themselves as possible and aren't immediately a stupid idea. They've even gotten better at curating the gaming section. I've seen a distinct drop in "I'm the ideas-man on an MMO where you can do *literally everything*! :D Give me moneys." projects. This actually feeds into..
2) You cite a 33% success rate. I'm not entirely sure where that number comes from - especially since a report Kickstarter themselves published (http://"https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment?ref=hero") puts it at a far-lower 12ish%. Is that really a terrible number, though? Does anyone know what percentage of projects a risk-happy publisher would can internally? I bet it's a reasonably-large number... they just have the knowledge and expertise to end non-starters before they drain too much money.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 04:01:25 pm
For me the moral of this story (and other similar ones) is that kickstarter is a lousy, lousy, system, with little to no security and an extremely uneven burden of power, and that you should be wary of funding anyone who is not tried&true (and even that is being far more generous than I feel the system deserves).
The problem is that Kickstarter is at worst a necessary evil to just having the corporations decide what we want with the lowest risk material imaginable.
Even with all its problems this is still a FAR better world we live in because it exists than without.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 20, 2016, 04:04:24 pm
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 20, 2016, 04:16:30 pm
Don't get me wrong, I am not on-the-barricades angry at Kickstarter or anything. I disagree with some of their policies, but I still think it's a great platform and I love how they help make a lot of awesome niche projects possible. It's just that I keep seeing these discussions about what crowdfunding is and what to expect. I think that is caused by stuff like passage I quoted and a lack of disclaimers. It would be nice if there was a bigger consensus on what to expect, and Kickstarter can and should do something about that.
Thinking about it, I was wrong to suggest they do better to screening. But they could do better disclaimers, and they could do a better job facilitating communication. Make a framework for financial transparency, give friendly reminders to developers who stop communicating, reach out and avoid stressed project creators hiding from backers, etc. They should help connect backers and creators. That's the vibe I get from their page, but I don't see any evidence they're actually doing much once a project is launched.
As for your last question, when I worked in the games industry, I did see games canned. There is a constant flow of prototypes and pitches at all major studios. Most of these get canned. Others get canned in the early phases, or transformed/merged into something completely different. Projects being canned after significant production has happened is a lot more rare. It's usually better for the publisher to eat a loss than to just write off the entire development. The result of a failed project tends to manifest as studios being shut down or downsized.
Post by: sirvente on July 31, 2016, 01:22:21 pm
Quote
Met in a public place. (for his safety?) Didn't see a build. He's "doing the best that he can"
Quote
Yeah. No update. I could have posted literally nothing but that seems even worse.
Post by: jhxmt on July 31, 2016, 03:20:47 pm
QuoteMet in a public place. (for his safety?) Didn't see a build. He's "doing the best that he can"QuoteYeah. No update. I could have posted literally nothing but that seems even worse.
Context please?
Post by: sirvente on July 31, 2016, 03:32:31 pm
Post by: Karlito on July 31, 2016, 03:55:41 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 31, 2016, 04:03:46 pm
Quote
Met in a public place. (for his safety?) "Sounds vaguely unhinged to me
Post by: nenjin on July 31, 2016, 04:45:26 pm
QuoteMet in a public place. (for his safety?) "Sounds vaguely unhinged to me
I read it more as an attempt at humor given how hostile people have been lately.
Post by: JumpingJack on July 31, 2016, 10:33:30 pm
Well, it makes sense that he wouldn't see any sort of build in a public place. Still, Josh's comment makes me wonder if there's anything to show at all.QuoteMet in a public place. (for his safety?) Didn't see a build. He's "doing the best that he can"
Really? I wonder what gave him that idea. ::)QuoteYeah. No update. I could have posted literally nothing but that seems even worse.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on July 31, 2016, 11:51:20 pm
It used to be if you went looking for a game like this you'd find some sketchy blog and over time the updates would become more and more cryptic until the apologies for the lack of updates outweighed the updates and then one day the link would go to yellow on black korean text and they would never be seen or heard from again. Nobody was surprised, nobody who gave the guy money felt ripped off because everything about the arrangement advertised that the person was not to be trusted.
After I sank some money into The Dead Linger I recognized the pattern from the good old days and I stopped throwing money at things that I can't currently play. "Development is expensive and not fun" (Yogcast and infinity others) "Someone I trusted took the money and ran away" (Tarol Hunt and infinity +10 others) and "I have gone insane and hate you" (John Campbell) are just things that happen when you deal with the delightful lunatics who still have original ideas.
I've been pumped for that which sleeps for a long time. I'm still pumped, when it finally wakes up I'll shell out some money but not before.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 01, 2016, 08:12:19 am
Post by: TempAcc on August 01, 2016, 08:26:01 am
Post by: nenjin on August 01, 2016, 09:07:59 am
That said, it's why DF is the way it is, because Toady deals with things that a) he can handle and b) that keep him interested in his project. It's why we don't have graphics or a decent GUI: he's not comfortable working on those things and, perhaps more importantly, I think he finds that kind of work tedious and boring versus actually working on the game.
Indy devs begging for dollars in a traditional game sale transaction don't have the same luxury of doing exactly what they want like he does.
Post by: ndkid on August 01, 2016, 09:54:35 am
Toady just seems to....I dunno, never really express doubt. You can read in the dev logs how he has to work through things like everyone else, it just doesn't seem to phase him.
That said, it's why DF is the way it is, because Toady deals with things that a) he can handle and b) that keep him interested in his project. It's why we don't have graphics or a decent GUI: he's not comfortable working on those things and, perhaps, more importantly, I think he finds that kind of work tedious and boring versus actually working on the game.
Indy devs begging for dollars in a traditional game sale transaction don't have the same luxury of doing exactly what they want like he does.
But if we're going to compare and contrast, I think the biggest difference is communication. It used to be daily... Toady would post as he was going to bed (after the sun came up) about what he did that day. It's not about rate of release... I remember when we went more than a year between releases. It's his willingness to take an hour or two, every week, to let people know what's going on. Even when it's boring. Even when there are setbacks. Most people have too much ego and insecurity to do that, especially if there's bad news several weeks in a row.
(Another area where I think Toady does better than the average game dev is breaking up his work incrementally. For someone who doesn't hold to any real SDLC, he does an impressive job of defining a body of work of a scope he considers reasonable, and then implementing that body of work.)
Post by: TempAcc on August 01, 2016, 10:25:07 am
But ye, I do agree that one of his most stellar features is that he makes sure to keep in contact with the community pretty much every day, hell, he even actively manages the community with the help of threetoe. I do agree that we're spoiled for having someone like toady working on a game we all love, but the TWS guy just went full radio silence and didn't even come forward with it, to the point other people had to speak in his stead to the community.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 01, 2016, 04:37:26 pm
Post by: Serenseven on August 05, 2016, 10:05:37 am
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/posts/1648240
Post by: nenjin on August 05, 2016, 10:14:23 am
Quote
We are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation.
Hype-death.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 05, 2016, 10:20:55 am
given that the AI was a major source of delay and bugs, its probably necessary for the moment just to get a minimum viable product out there.QuoteWe are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation.
Hype-death.
Post by: nenjin on August 05, 2016, 10:37:51 am
I'm getting Netgain vibes from the game now, where the developer goes down the rabbit hole of simplifying their game and discovers it tears the guts out of it and their enthusiasm to work on it.
Post by: Zangi on August 05, 2016, 10:59:39 am
The AI shouldn't make the 'optimum' decision everytime, they should be making decisions on their AI personality/inclinations and actual knowledge(fog of war).
Which could essentially make it an easy AI curbstomp if the mechanics/balance behind the gameplay are poor.
The game should allow room for
At least that is how I see it.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 05, 2016, 11:01:12 am
Post by: Sartain on August 05, 2016, 12:26:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on August 05, 2016, 12:35:40 pm
Post by: Sartain on August 05, 2016, 12:59:10 pm
Post by: ndkid on August 05, 2016, 01:02:07 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on August 05, 2016, 03:52:14 pm
I'm getting Netgain vibes from the game now, where the developer goes down the rabbit hole of simplifying their game and discovers it tears the guts out of it and their enthusiasm to work on it.Could be the case, or it might be that the system is simplified for the moment and expanded upon later, bringing it back to its supposed original glory at a more opportune time.
Either way, I'm just happy that there seems to be something, even if it ends up being a lesser experience than what was initially proposed.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 05, 2016, 06:40:47 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 05, 2016, 08:01:00 pm
The way he originally described it a lot of AI features used to be hardcoded, like the Alliance which formed automatically when the conditions were fulfilled, rather than being something that could happen or not happen to various degrees according to the whims of the magic AI. The stretch goals, mainly extended game and procedural generation, required those hard-coded elements to become dynamic, and that's when things went off the rails.
Post by: lordcooper on August 05, 2016, 08:13:43 pm
I'll take a game with some simplified features (hell, he didn't even say how simplified, the changes could be minor) that actually comes out over a beautiful pipedream any day of the week. This is how game dev works; you need to simplify, redesign and even cut out features all the time. You could probably count the games that haven't on your fingers. He should have come to this realisation months ago.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 06, 2016, 05:29:38 am
Post by: birdy51 on August 06, 2016, 06:08:13 am
Emphasis on hopefully. I really do want to see him succeed for both his community and for his own self.
Post by: Sergarr on August 06, 2016, 08:10:40 am
Well, at least it will probably work now, unlike his attempts before, which were basically trying to predict each other moves and then ending up in infinite Prisoner's Dilemma loops.QuoteWe are now simplifying the Behavioral AI that was the foundation for the simulation.
Hype-death.
Post by: TempAcc on August 06, 2016, 10:16:12 am
Post by: Mephansteras on August 06, 2016, 11:26:40 am
Post by: Cthulhu on August 06, 2016, 02:57:41 pm
Post by: Xantalos on August 06, 2016, 04:54:58 pm
Post by: ventuswings on August 06, 2016, 10:56:45 pm
Glad I didn't pay them money though; the constant delays to dev-log and other things back then were enough to give me pause.
Post by: Farce on August 07, 2016, 12:57:31 am
I mean like, I personally pushed for the increased complexity stuff because it sounded super hype. Even if it didn't pan out so great, I appreciate that they went for it and am on their side and such, because it's exactly the kinda thing that I want made, and all that.
Post by: Neonivek on August 07, 2016, 01:05:10 am
Didn't all of the technical problems arise from expanding the game's scope to work with randomly generated maps, scenarios, and all this other way-more-complex-stuff? And didn't they say something to the effect of 'fuck man, I dunno if we can do that, that shit looks pretty tough'?
I mean like, I personally pushed for the increased complexity stuff because it sounded super hype. Even if it didn't pan out so great, I appreciate that they went for it and am on their side and such, because it's exactly the kinda thing that I want made, and all that.
Actually to my knowledge the game being delayed due to stretch goal bloating is an assumption based on nothing really.
It SEEMS to be almost exclusively the AI that delays this game from having anything presentable out.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 07, 2016, 07:44:44 am
So... cautious optimism, as far as I'm concerned
Post by: birdy51 on August 07, 2016, 10:17:52 am
Post by: Egan_BW on August 07, 2016, 01:15:34 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 08, 2016, 01:48:36 pm
Post by: TempAcc on August 08, 2016, 02:02:31 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on August 08, 2016, 02:24:24 pm
Didn't all of the technical problems arise from expanding the game's scope to work with randomly generated maps, scenarios, and all this other way-more-complex-stuff? And didn't they say something to the effect of 'fuck man, I dunno if we can do that, that shit looks pretty tough'?
I mean like, I personally pushed for the increased complexity stuff because it sounded super hype. Even if it didn't pan out so great, I appreciate that they went for it and am on their side and such, because it's exactly the kinda thing that I want made, and all that.
Actually to my knowledge the game being delayed due to stretch goal bloating is an assumption based on nothing really.
It SEEMS to be almost exclusively the AI that delays this game from having anything presentable out.
Except it's pretty much exactly what he said.
Specifically, the initial giant delay (the game was apparently almost finished when the kickstarter went through) was to replace the old campaign cartographer map with a modular design that could handle procedural generation and in-game map modification. He posted lots of in-progress map samples and eventually sent out the mapmaker (which actually worked, though there were no features or anything, just terrain). The other thing he said he was doing was decoupling the old hardcoded elements to make them dynamic for extended mode. Originally the Alliance formed under specific conditions and happened every game, but for extended mode it would need to be based on the whims of the magic AI with possibility for multiple alliances, and for alliances to appear and disappear over the course of a game.
And it was that reorganization that dragged the game way out past its apparent due date and in the process he broke everything.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 08, 2016, 03:25:48 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on August 08, 2016, 04:46:27 pm
Hmm. Magic AI on that level sounds like practically a Dwarf Fortress-level undertaking. I have no idea if KDG could even be capable of it given enough time, but he certainly doesn't have enough time or money to do it now. I'll be glad to play this game as it was first described, in any case.Truth. Maybe he'll be able to add some things in post-release. If not, and if people want it badly enough, then There Will Be Mods.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 08, 2016, 04:52:36 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 08, 2016, 04:54:32 pm
Hmm. Magic AI on that level sounds like practically a Dwarf Fortress-level undertaking. I have no idea if KDG could even be capable of it given enough time, but he certainly doesn't have enough time or money to do it now. I'll be glad to play this game as it was first described, in any case.... actually, it sounds exactly like DF's bloat goals. They probably should have planned it in the same manner...
Post by: Xantalos on August 08, 2016, 05:18:52 pm
And for those things too hardcoded to be modded, TWS2? ;)Seems like the best goal to aim for, to be honest.
After all, Crusader Kings 2 is the better remembered one.
((actually I don't know if there even was a ck1))
Post by: Egan_BW on August 08, 2016, 05:31:23 pm
Only ten dollars to see how much worse it was!
Come to think of it, trying to get published by Paradox might have been a better idea than kickstarting. Ah well.
Post by: nenjin on August 08, 2016, 05:34:02 pm
Come to think of it, trying to get published by Paradox might have been a better idea than kickstarting. Ah well.
"He said disregarding Paradox's track record for QC." :P
Post by: Criptfeind on August 08, 2016, 05:34:38 pm
Apparently there was. (http://store.steampowered.com/app/204940/)It's a pretty good game actually. Really quite aged by now of course.
Only ten dollars to see how much worse it was!
Post by: Cthulhu on August 08, 2016, 05:55:14 pm
You'd be playing Sicily and have control of half of Italy, and suddenly a dude in Ireland wants to be your vassal. And he won't shut the fuck up about it.
One of the biggest time limiters for me was how many vassalage petitions a minute I could handle before I gave up trying to do anything. Eventually you'd have ten or fifteen of them pestering you every few minutes and nothing can make them stop aside from giving in.
Post by: Culise on August 09, 2016, 02:59:50 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 28, 2016, 04:42:24 am
Quote
No real news from the weekend, King was at a wedding so no meeting
He posted some...thing about how this is all not his fault and justifications, to be honest I didn't read it too much - best extract
' I also don't have the ability or resources to take them over and then hire someone else to "fix" it - because I can't dig into it and see if it's working in the first place, or if there is even anything workable here. I am not going to alienate the only person with the skills and ability to work on the project by strong arming.'
The ending through
'.. I am not walking away - I just have to wait til Josh decides he is 'done' before I try to get the pieces and figure out what I can do with them. Every time I talk with him he assures me he's still working on it - so I take that at face value."
Basically Josh is in the driving seat he either finishes this or walks, King is....his manager I guess
Looks like we're entering another quite period, maybe something next weekend meeting, probably a 'the tech demo won't be till October+' is my bet - changing the AI being the reason
....Maybe we should set an excuses bingo game up
Quote
....Fun comment from the forums
'I don't know about you folks but watching this fiasco has almost been enough entertainment for me to have gotten my money's worth at this point.'
Post by: puke on August 28, 2016, 05:23:17 am
Quote....Fun comment from the forums
'I don't know about you folks but watching this fiasco has almost been enough entertainment for me to have gotten my money's worth at this point.'
I never had any expectations about wither the game would ever successfully launch or how good it would be if it did. I backed it because I enjoy reading about the development process and the intended features seemed challenging to implement and should have made good reading.
But not everyone has the blogging skills and work ethic of Josh Ge, so sort of a failure there. On the otherhand, sometimes learning about the pitfalls of bad program management and customer relations is valuable in its own right. So, thanks? I guess?
I guess I wouldn't call it a waste of money, but I would have preferred to spend that money on learning something slightly different.
Post by: Sergarr on August 29, 2016, 04:45:05 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on September 26, 2016, 06:32:01 pm
No word on what's going on with the AI, but we get a look at the new map style and some fun facts about gameplay.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 26, 2016, 07:23:35 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on September 26, 2016, 07:38:25 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 26, 2016, 08:04:51 pm
I wish we could just let this non-game die. It was a test case for many people on the validity of kickstarter--it failed--I just wish we could move on from it. Especially now, since this development hell has blown up, you can be sure that it. will. never. be. done. Let the dev go, money back or not, this project can no longer be accomplished. At all.so long as the dev is working on it, it's not dead
Post by: Cthulhu on September 26, 2016, 10:05:48 pm
It's dead. Josh may also be insane.
Post by: Xantalos on September 26, 2016, 11:14:49 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 26, 2016, 11:22:13 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2016, 03:23:31 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on September 27, 2016, 03:34:45 am
Post by: Darkmere on September 27, 2016, 03:38:16 am
Post by: Hanzoku on September 27, 2016, 05:00:55 am
Post by: Ghazkull on September 27, 2016, 07:34:17 am
He said "fuck it" and started from the beginning and what we are seeing here is in fact the entire game progressing again because he started from scratch.
Post by: Shadowgandor on September 27, 2016, 08:44:42 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 27, 2016, 10:58:06 am
I'm honestly a little worried about his mental state after that. To come back with a map update after all this, he's either got balls the size of the sun or he's completely out of touch with the reality of his situation.
It's also possible that the AI issue still seems intractable, but the dev needs to do something successfully and to completion, psychologically speaking. In grad school I saw a situation up-close that looked disturbingly close to his, in terms of the psychology displayed by someone burning out, and if it is like that then doing something he can actually complete may appear to be (and may actually be) a lifeline to pull himself out of the pit.
Post by: nenjin on September 27, 2016, 12:21:25 pm
I'm honestly a little worried about his mental state after that. To come back with a map update after all this, he's either got balls the size of the sun or he's completely out of touch with the reality of his situation.
It's also possible that the AI issue still seems intractable, but the dev needs to do something successfully and to completion, psychologically speaking. In grad school I saw a situation up-close that looked disturbingly close to his, in terms of the psychology displayed by someone burning out, and if it is like that then doing something he can actually complete may appear to be (and may actually be) a lifeline to pull himself out of the pit.
In truth I think every nascent game designer has experienced this. You get an idea, it enthralls you, you work and work and work before realizing....you can't make your vision a reality. Granted, KDG has produced something that could actually qualify as a game at this point, but it wouldn't be what he'd actually wanted.
This whole thing reminds me of Net Gain. A promising game with a complicated premise that got about 50% of the way there and then fell down the rabbit hole.
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2016, 12:46:33 pm
It also got kickstarted, but I didn't back it because I didn't see it panning out. This one I'm a little sore about, so I don't have the same sympathy some of you guys have. Either he deleted the original game we saw in the videos or it never existed, and either way I feel like I was misled.
No more kickstarter for me, at any rate.
Post by: nenjin on September 27, 2016, 12:57:19 pm
I still haven't given up on the game but at this point I don't know what it'd be if/when it released. It looks different (I also prefer, ultimately, the original look compared to what I'm seeing of the map) and what the world is doing is now once again opaque and incomprehensible to me. Like, I dunno, Rogue U or Rogue Redemption or whatever the hell it calls itself now, TWS may become one of those games that just ends up done one day and I will have thought little about it when it arrives. (If it arrives.)
Post by: Mephansteras on September 27, 2016, 01:15:01 pm
I decided to go through my email and look at all the projects I've backed. Looking at just the computer games, since that's what is relevant here.
Of the 33 games that I've backed:
20 have given me a released product. (How good they are is variable, but that's true regardless)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
4 have not finished but have released alpha/beta/whatever builds to play with
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
6 have not finished, not released anything playable yet, but claim to still be in progress (including TWS)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Only 3 have outright failed to give me anything at all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Even if all of the projects that haven't given me a final product yet somehow fail, I'm still pretty good ratio-wise for something that is a known gamble from the start.
Post by: Zangi on September 27, 2016, 01:44:51 pm
Just that this one is pretty prolific compared to some of the others who have crawled off into the deep dark and never returned to the light. And oh yea, Net Gain... I had put money into that too.
Post by: Neonivek on September 27, 2016, 01:49:01 pm
Indeed, the rate of return is pretty decent for kickstarter.
Just that this one is pretty prolific compared to some of the others who have crawled off into the deep dark and never returned to the light. And oh yea, Net Gain... I had put money into that too.
Nuh uuuuuhhh! Remember that statistic? Only 25% of kickstarters have a return.
OHH WAIT sorry... that statistic was a load of bollocks because it specifically meant "are currently in Early Access".
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on September 27, 2016, 02:07:44 pm
Post by: ventuswings on September 27, 2016, 06:20:39 pm
Another Kickstarter I've been closely following over the years is Rain World, and although the game did and is currently undergoing lengthy information blackout, I have 100% certainty in it releasing within a year.
I know the game's been present on PAX and have playable demo so situation is bit different, but even if these had not existed in reality, the developers have been excellent in regards to their updates on TIG forum that I cannot believe the game will become vaporware. They always seem to have sense of progress & addition... having purpose instead of stalling on a limbo.
Actually, I remember That Which Sleeps built great excitement exactly because of excellent response & development posts from KingDinosaurGames; it's pretty fascinating how two similar AI-focused games with amazing development updates managed to diverge so far in their eventual fate. Admittedly, failure of Josh to consistently meet their deadlines were alarming... at least Rain World kept such promises and visible PR to minimum.
Still, I suspect it mostly came down to AI problem somehow downright halting the entire development.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 27, 2016, 06:54:51 pm
Post by: Neonivek on September 27, 2016, 06:56:01 pm
But then again also... it might be too late for that.
Post by: Majestic7 on September 28, 2016, 07:15:05 am
Extra goals might include things requiring restructuring of the entire game, which in turn can blow up the internal game logic and all schedules. EA, on the other hand, can form a toxic community around the game that poisons it. This can happen either by destroying the developers motivation to work on the game or by a small, loud group driving the devs into taking the game into a harmful direction. (IMHO this happened with Mordheim.)
These risks are especially true with newbie developers who might be too personally invested into the game. Only game that has burned me in EA due to the developers just being a bag of lying dicks is Spacebase DF-9, where DoubleFine just abandoned the game and declared it complete. In my case, that just landed the company on my Never-Buy-Anything-Ever-From-Them -list. Plus reminding of this story whenever any of their games come up elsewhere, as surely it shows their unreliability regarding customers.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2016, 02:41:02 am
The "board" is a set of cards laid out with connections between them. That gives it instant readability, with the full rules for each location right there on its card, as well as modularity. Swap some cards around to make a new map, or randomly draw the whole board. Rules for that won't be considered until I have the core gameplay figured out though, of course.
The core gameplay loop is closest conceptually to netrunner, with some RPG and wargame type systems supplementing it for theme and additional functionality. One player is the Dark Lord (think sauron more than cthulhu) and his gameplay resembles TWS. He's got minions who serve as his actions per round, dark power which functions like mana and gates the power of actions, and various cards representing schemes, equipment, spells, defenses, etc. The basic action available to him is placing a minion and a scheme at a location anywhere on the map. The scheme remains on the board until it's discarded at will by the dark lord, interrupted by the chosen one, or it matures, which takes time based on the difficulty of the scheme and the minion's skill in the relevant ability (Summoning a demon is Lore, subverting a kingdom Diplomacy, etc. Standard board game stuff).
So the dark lord, like the corp in netrunner, essentially sets the pace and terrain of the game by creating threats and challenges that the chosen one must figure out how to respond to. Various cards can be played on a scheme to protect it, like guards, traps, etc. If schemes are hidden until interrupted, this adds the additional dynamic of red herrings and trap schemes. If you know where the chosen one's hiding, lure him out with a dummy scheme and pop a trap on him, but you're wasting time and resources if he doesn't take the bait. Haven't decided how I'd work that one though, face-down schemes. The Dark Lord wins by victory points, gained by subverting and conquering the nations of the world, or by killing the chosen one.
Anyway, the Chosen One's where things get a little different. Rather than being like TWS where the chosen one is unknown, the Dark Lord knows who he is, but can't find him. The Chosen One has a hidden movement mechanic where he records his movements on a sheet hidden from the Dark Lord. Instead of agents he can gather followers, other heroes he can keep in his entourage or send out on their own to give him greater reach. The tradeoff there is pretty obvious, he can send out his guys for more actions but that limits his personal power, a la War of the Ring's fellowship mechanic. Like the Dark Lord the Chosen One can win through victory points by uniting the nations and freeing occupied territory from the Dark Lord, or by gathering up enough heroes and artifacts and spells to take the fight to him and destroy him directly.
The biggest difference from TWS is the chosen one focus. Nations take a backseat and function mostly as terrain, obstacles and objectives for the players to compete over. Getting a nation on your side gives you control of its army, though you'll have to dedicate a character card to controlling it if you want it to do more than defend its home, plus various benefits like equipment and special heroes, and hindering enemy actions in the nation's territory.
One thing I like about the concept is that there's several paths to victory and the character-based action system lets you divide your efforts among one or both of them however you want. As the dark lord you could ignore the chosen one and focus on heavily defended schemes to take over the nations and conquer them, or you could scour the land to hunt him down, or anywhere in between, and likewise with the Chosen One.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on October 06, 2016, 04:06:09 am
Of course, one could just put a fantasy spin on risk and have the dark one as a special dude - or add a gamemaster to the entire thing, mhmm...
Post by: Majestic7 on October 06, 2016, 04:08:49 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 06, 2016, 10:22:33 am
Post by: Cthulhu on October 06, 2016, 10:47:42 am
As for hidden elements, there's really only two that aren't in every game of this type. The chosen one is hidden and moves via paper sheet, which has been done in a few games, and the Dark Lord's schemes, if I do it this way, start facedown, along with whatever cards he's attached to them. He puts time tokens on top of the card to show how many turns until the scheme matures, and then the scheme flips when the chosen one engages it or uses an ability to reveal it.
The chosen one's entire entourage is hidden with him, possibly helping or hindering his attempts to stay hidden. If he sends followers they become visible to minimize complexity; only the chosen one needs to be tracked. The Dark Lord can use schemes and cards to try to track the chosen one down. For example he could just plop a minion down where he thinks the chosen one is and test his searching ability, revealing him if he's there or determining how many turns ago he was there last. One of the kingdoms will have a spy network ability that'll let the dark lord pay a cost (gold, if I implement that, or dark power) to test an area without using a minion. Schemes can be even stronger, akin to rumors in eldritch horror, immediate threats that can end the game if not addressed. A minion does a ritual to see through the eyes of crows and now the map is slowly filling with crow tokens that reveal the chosen one if he enters their space, cordoning him off until he can dispel it.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 06, 2016, 11:36:14 am
Post by: Ludorum Rex on October 06, 2016, 01:23:28 pm
Post by: Xantalos on October 06, 2016, 01:55:14 pm
THE END TIMES ARE COMETH MY BRETHEREN!
In all seriousness, I'd play that.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 08, 2016, 11:51:45 pm
It's happening. Dunno when I'll have anything playable put together, but I'm compiling a list of all the components and thinking through that's giving me a lot of insight on what exactly I want the players to be able to do.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 09, 2016, 12:54:12 am
Post by: Mephansteras on October 10, 2016, 10:14:53 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 10, 2016, 11:23:46 am
Yeah. Hardest thing about board game design is the very large number of tests and rebalancing you need to do before you have a true polished product. But I enjoy it a lot.This is true of all games, it's just that the standard is different for board games.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 10, 2016, 12:10:36 pm
Post by: Culise on October 10, 2016, 12:55:03 pm
You can't roll out patches for your little mistakes with boardgames.Sure, you can. You just call it "errata" instead. :P
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2016, 01:26:37 pm
You can't roll out patches for your little mistakes with boardgames.2nd editions, updated online rules, and FAQs say otherwise. I know plenty of boardgames with "patches" to them.
Modding board games is also easier in many ways, since rules aren't coded.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 10, 2016, 01:45:21 pm
You can't roll out patches for your little mistakes with boardgames.I see you've never played High Frontier.
Post by: Cthulhu on October 10, 2016, 10:42:54 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on October 11, 2016, 12:47:56 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 11, 2016, 05:39:51 am
You can still patch shit with tabletop simulator, and once I'm ready to start bringing people in for tests (and later doing blind tests) I'll be 99% using TTS.Write me down as a future tester please, if you're collecting names at this point. I'd be happy to assist with design as well if you like. Whatever. I have free time.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 11, 2016, 10:14:24 am
Let us not forget that this game also had showcased a 'playable demo' at one point before everything was refactored to infinity
if you believe him. more likely it was just a lie.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 11, 2016, 10:33:49 am
The video showed him iterating through turns and performing actions. If it was a scripted falsehood it was fairly convincing. It looked to me like an early prototype of the game prior to them trying to implement the stretch goals.Let us not forget that this game also had showcased a 'playable demo' at one point before everything was refactored to infinity
if you believe him. more likely it was just a lie.
Post by: ventuswings on October 11, 2016, 05:46:38 pm
The video showed him iterating through turns and performing actions. If it was a scripted falsehood it was fairly convincing. It looked to me like an early prototype of the game prior to them trying to implement the stretch goals.Let us not forget that this game also had showcased a 'playable demo' at one point before everything was refactored to infinity
if you believe him. more likely it was just a lie.
I really believe poor project management have been the most contributing factor leading to game's demise/hiatus.
Post by: Innsmothe on October 12, 2016, 04:08:48 pm
I know this is really dishonest, why don't people just list features they are already going to include in the games as stretch goals and release them in a fit of 'generosity' anyway? Sounds sodding obvious.The video showed him iterating through turns and performing actions. If it was a scripted falsehood it was fairly convincing. It looked to me like an early prototype of the game prior to them trying to implement the stretch goals.Let us not forget that this game also had showcased a 'playable demo' at one point before everything was refactored to infinity
if you believe him. more likely it was just a lie.
I really believe poor project management have been the most contributing factor leading to game's demise/hiatus.
Seriously, the 101 basics of project management are to find out what is achievable and where the limits are and stop there. If a project succeeds, you can always try and get more funding for continuations or additions.
Paradox do this extremely well and profit from it quite comfortably.
Edit:Spelling/Grammar.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 12, 2016, 04:32:29 pm
There are some examples of successful kickstarters who managed their projects well and kept the development within the scope they could handle. Not a lot, but there are some.
I still firmly believe, as Ventus says, this project spiraled out of control. I think he started off with a simple prototype that had most of the initial features working decently but the stretch goals required some major refactoring.
They started out with hand-drawn maps and predesigned levels and tried to end up with infinite procedural possibilities. That is more than a refactor, it should have been a sequel if anything, with a larger team than 'one guy' working on it. One man working in isolation is susceptible to all sorts of roadblocks that can stymie work and bring progress to a crashing halt indefinitely. He'll have no emotional support, no oversight, no help with difficulties, etc. It takes a toll on you, and you can get to a point where you are just exhausted and no longer WANT to work on your project. And once you get there, its hard to do anything productive. This is one reason people work in teams.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 12, 2016, 06:04:02 pm
But, of course, if there is anything most programmers have it's an ego over their own abilities. (I include myself in that)
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2016, 06:20:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 12, 2016, 07:02:41 pm
Whatever gets you to program every single day... If it is from a stone belief that your the greatest programmer in the universe then good!
Post by: Mephansteras on October 12, 2016, 10:36:59 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 06, 2016, 12:37:25 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 06, 2016, 01:02:23 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 06, 2016, 01:07:26 pm
Post by: Zangi on December 06, 2016, 01:22:49 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 06, 2016, 01:24:09 pm
I was hoping there had been some backer-only communications or something. Shame.Couldn't be sure, I didn't back it due to lack of moneys.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 06, 2016, 01:28:52 pm
Post by: ventuswings on December 06, 2016, 01:35:56 pm
(I always like independent goal-oriented AI that doesn't carter to players at all, so that legitimate AI-AI interactions can develop without any player intervention; this is why Civilization and Rain World is game I have high anticipation for)
so much that I'd put it in "Games you wish existed" category.
I guess I'll put this on back of my mind and hope the game is slumbering with stealth development like Routine.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 06, 2016, 09:32:25 pm
And it didn't have an approach to AI, which is why it failed. A pie in the sky idea you can't implement isn't an approach.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2016, 12:29:08 pm
Quote
I just wanted to take a moment to thank Joe (AKA Fenicks) for all the hard work, energy, and most importantly financial support he put towards That Which Sleeps over the past 2 years.
Unfortunately we have very different ideas of how this project should be handled moving forward and I've decided to continue developing the project without him.
Post by: birdy51 on December 13, 2016, 01:12:34 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 13, 2016, 01:26:01 pm
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0436/7045/products/allwork_large.jpg?v=1453408198)
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2016, 01:29:47 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on December 13, 2016, 01:32:41 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 13, 2016, 01:43:13 pm
Well, luck to him.
Post by: Hanzoku on December 13, 2016, 02:00:52 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on December 13, 2016, 02:01:59 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 13, 2016, 02:29:30 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2016, 02:31:01 pm
Quote
That is not dead which can eternal lie
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 13, 2016, 02:33:12 pm
QuoteThat is not dead which can eternal lie
No, stop, this game is legitimately dead. We may find that after it's body has floated down the river in a few years, that new fungoid life has sprouted from this rotting corpse, but I assure you it is dead. Actually dead. Seriously, it was dead when all these troubles began.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 13, 2016, 04:03:11 pm
Post by: Xantalos on December 13, 2016, 05:02:17 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 13, 2016, 06:15:09 pm
Sounds to me that they had a beautiful thing going, but Kickstarter stretch goals destroyed it. When the pressures of the project became too much, maybe... the dev guy lost it. It is a huge shame. If they had just stuck to the original plan, maybe it had worked out okay. I hope other devs will look upon this and learn so they don't fall to the same trap.
I doubt it. They claimed the game was almost done. Since they didnt even fall back on that I'm assuming this was not true. Particularily since after the scandal blew up it turned out noone, not even the businessmpartner, had actually ever seen this "almost done" version.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 27, 2016, 09:24:57 pm
Post by: nenjin on December 27, 2016, 09:54:54 pm
He may not have been "almost done" but saying there was never any game, ever, just seems spiteful to me.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 28, 2016, 01:25:08 am
And then what I said. Making it look like more than it is, Lying for Jesus and all, figuring he's good on it if he can just get the money to finish it.
Post by: Innsmothe on December 28, 2016, 02:10:05 am
Frankly those who act like you shpuld be blamed for the guy's breakdown and the split; you shouldn't yell fire in a theater, yell 'sell!' on a stock trading floor and you shouldn't tell cynical gamers that an indie producer is a fraud before anything happens...which was done repeatedly, pretty much since the beginning.
Cynicism is one thing, frankly the whole thing was sabotaged. :-\
Post by: lordcooper on December 28, 2016, 03:54:13 am
Any chance we can let this thread sleep?
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 28, 2016, 11:05:29 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 28, 2016, 11:12:52 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: nenjin on December 28, 2016, 01:55:14 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 28, 2016, 02:03:21 pm
To me there's a big gap between fraud and failure. I see the game as the latter, not the former.
No, it's a very small gap. Did you make material representations that backers relied on in backing the project? If no, then it's not fraud. If yes, then it's fraud.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 28, 2016, 02:08:03 pm
I.e. I invested since they already had a early build they showed off in the first videos and I wanted to play that. 3 years later, they now have LESS then that.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 28, 2016, 02:23:25 pm
I really don't buy it. Though since you have been the one always being a downer, skipping from one negative to the next. I am really not surprised.Nope. Cthulhu was a real believer from minute one. In fact, he used to defend the game until shortly ago. It's just that the way things have gone it's a bit too hard to swallow the story anymore. For the look of things, even former developers doubt it.
Quote
Frankly those who act like you shpuld be blamed for the guy's breakdown and the split; you shouldn't yell fire in a theater, yell 'sell!' on a stock trading floor and you shouldn't tell cynical gamers that an indie producer is a fraud before anything happens...which was done repeatedly, pretty much since the beginning.Ehh, no. This Josh guy is responsible for his own acts. Period. This was not sabotaged. This was bad planning and misleading advertising. At best, and being generous.
Cynicism is one thing, frankly the whole thing was sabotaged. :-\
Post by: nenjin on December 28, 2016, 02:37:50 pm
Quote
No, it's a very small gap. Did you make material representations that backers relied on in backing the project? If no, then it's not fraud. If yes, then it's fraud.
I didn't take the Kickstarter presentation as "the game". Why would I? There was little UI to speak of and the entire map got redone. The game vastly balooned due to stretch goals. IIRC, the infamous "basically done" line is the only one we have that everyone points to as a demonstration of fraud. I think the guy could be guilty of a lot of stuff (hubris, overestimating his own skills, piss poor community management) but fraud is not any of those things. Saying from the outset he intended to defraud backers is beyond the pale. Legitimately trying to make a game funded by Kickstarter and failing happens all the time.
My guess is the game managed to pass turns early on, before much of anything was hooked up. And as he started building systems it became totally unstable. I still don't consider that fraud.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 28, 2016, 02:42:07 pm
QuoteNo, it's a very small gap. Did you make material representations that backers relied on in backing the project? If no, then it's not fraud. If yes, then it's fraud.
I didn't take the Kickstarter presentation as "the game". Why would I? There was little UI to speak of and the entire map got redone. The game vastly balooned due to stretch goals. IIRC, the infamous "basically done" line is the only one we have that everyone points to as a demonstration of fraud. I think the guy could be guilty of a lot of stuff (hubris, overestimating his own skills, piss poor community management) but fraud is not any of those things. Saying from the outset he intended to defraud backers is beyond the pale. Legitimately trying to make a game funded by Kickstarter and failing happens all the time.
My guess is the game managed to pass turns early on, before much of anything was hooked up. And as he started building systems it became totally unstable. I still don't consider that fraud.
Again, from the Kickstarter page:
Quote
By waiting until we have a fully functional and working game engine we feel like we successfully mitigated the most common risks that many games on Kickstarter face. We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion.
They've never shown that they had a working game at any point, let alone in September 2014.
Post by: nenjin on December 28, 2016, 03:52:20 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 28, 2016, 03:56:10 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 28, 2016, 03:56:38 pm
I.e. I invested since they already had a early build they showed off in the first videos and I wanted to play that. 3 years later, they now have LESS then that.
This actually isn't surprising. It was, I'd assume, a partial engine missing key functionality that could do some stuff. If they refactored or substantially modified the system after that, the early game - which again, was presumably not a complete game - would not include any of the subsequent work. If they had poor version management - and I'm not exactly impressed with their software engineering/project management chops from what I've (peripherally) read - they may not even have the early version any more.
This entirely sets aside a whole raft of potential psychological issues involving an inability to "throw away" three years of work and face failure (even if it might scale complete failure back to partial failure). Discussing what would be the most rational course of action doesn't really seem relevant here.
From an uninvolved outsider's standpoint with knowledge of SE and some exposure to situations possibly involving similar psychological issues, this looks like excessive ambition, unrealistic assessment, poor planning, poor execution, and a mental breakdown directly following from those. That's a lot of speculation on my part. But it's certainly no more speculation than explicit accusations of fraud.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 28, 2016, 04:36:24 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 28, 2016, 05:10:40 pm
I took the videos released in....2015 was it? To be showing something. Are you saying that's also just cobble together footage done in illustrator?
In October 2015. At the time I thought it was showing something, but the fact that we never saw anything more, even the "later turns" he promised, tells me that yeah, it was probably fake. Maybe even in Unity. But not based on any real game that exists.
Post by: Xgamer4 on December 30, 2016, 12:53:06 pm
I.e. I invested since they already had a early build they showed off in the first videos and I wanted to play that. 3 years later, they now have LESS then that.
This actually isn't surprising. It was, I'd assume, a partial engine missing key functionality that could do some stuff. If they refactored or substantially modified the system after that, the early game - which again, was presumably not a complete game - would not include any of the subsequent work. If they had poor version management - and I'm not exactly impressed with their software engineering/project management chops from what I've (peripherally) read - they may not even have the early version any more.
Their "versioning system" has been mentioned in passing a few times, and the impressions I've gotten is that calling it "version control" is being waaayyy too generous. Josh apparently doesn't use any kind of version control, and just kinda wings everything. The off-hand comment Fenicks made a few months ago suggest that Josh actually keeps some code "in the cloud" and some code on his local machine, which is even crazier, but everything coding-related that Fenicks mentions needs to be filtered through the context that he knows nothing about development so... I'm not sure just what that entails, other than it sounds weird at best for a game like this.
(Unless... in the cloud is referring to some kind of source control that Josh does use, that Fenicks doesn't understand, which would make things make a bit more sense)
Post by: Gornova on January 12, 2017, 06:03:43 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on January 12, 2017, 07:05:09 am
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on January 12, 2017, 07:26:34 am
There's a new game coming out that's a bit like this called Urban Empires.
Post by: Scripten on January 12, 2017, 09:59:33 am
there are games about influence/manipulation with a "lesser" scope than TWS ? I find this topic intriguing :D
Drox Operative is pretty good. It's an ARPG, but it is pretty neat in that your goals are to influence various powers.
Post by: Gornova on January 12, 2017, 10:11:12 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 12, 2017, 10:17:23 am
That's a bit more of a grander scope aint it being galaxywide. :P
Well, it's actually "only" a solar system...
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 16, 2017, 09:19:28 pm
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/that-which-vapours-sauron-rapes-tbs-that-will-never-be-scam-maybe.93379/page-48
Quote
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you the findings of my recent investigation of That Which Sleeps. Wall of text incoming.
First of all Id like to mention, that even though I never backed this game on Kickstarter, I had high hopes for it and I followed its development very closely. A few months ago I re-read this whole thread, watched all the official videos and all the screenshots and I wondered what went wrong? It seemed so polished and coherent, the gameplay was supposedly there there were reports of testers playing the game and doing wonderful things in it. Could it really have been a scam?
Unable to satisfy my curiosity with anything I cound find online, I decided to go deeper. I contacted a certain fellow (whose name I will not mention at the moment, in case he would rather remain anonymous), who helped me obtain the map editor that was only released to beta-tier backers. Since decompiling Unity scripts is just a matter of downloading some free software (like ILSpy or DotPeek), I wanted to dive into the editor code in hopes of finding some clues on the game itself.
Imagine my surprise when I opened the dll file and found all the game code inside. It turns out that the map editor was built in the same project as the game shown in early videos, so all the scripts got included in the build.
Heres what I found out:
1. Hundreds of third-party assets
Okay, maybe not hundreds, but there is a lot of third-party code in there mostly from the Asset Store. Some notable examples:
Gamelogic Grids
Cartoon FX Pack
ReadyMade FX
Particle Dynamic Magic
Most of these are particle effects packs.
2. There is no game logic
There are some game-specific classes (like Agent, POI [Point of Interest], Nation etc.), but theres barely any code that would handle actual game logic. Most of the code is related to GUI operations, like hiding and moving menus. AI scripts of any kind are nowhere to be found. The questions that show up during scenario selection phase are loaded from an xml file, but answering them does nothing those answers are not stored anywhere. Lastly, the code that handles POIs is not really universal it only has direct reference to an AventuraObject which was the only Point of Interest seen in one of the early videos. The data for that city is not loaded from external sources, but hardcoded into the script.
To its defence, there are some data structures and pieces of code that show some foresight, but still theres almost nothing happening under the hood.
3. The code quality is questionable
I dont claim to be some kind of code-guru, but I know bad code when I see it. Its poorly structured, theres a lot of unnecessary code repetition (eg. like 6 tooltip classes that differ very little from one another). Not to mention the faulty approach of creating GUI effects and transitions first without any underlying logic.
So, what are the conclusions? The most obvious one is that King Dinosaur Games most likely lied when they said that they had a working game during their Kickstarter campaign. Im pretty sure that at the moment of the map editors release the game (if you could even call it a game) was not in playable state. Im not sure it was a 100% scam though. The code Ive seen shows some signs of effort being put into it. If it was made for the sole purpose of misleading their customers, it couldve been done way easier. My hunch is that Josh simply overestimated his skills and couldnt handle the complexity of the project (and those stretch goals didnt help either).
Thats it for now folks. I did refrain from posting actual code here, but if you have access to the map editor youll be able to see it for yourself.
[DISCLAIMER] : this analysis was based on the code found within TWS Map Editor files. KDG could claim that this was just some trash code and they do have actual working code somewhere else.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 16, 2017, 09:22:02 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 17, 2017, 12:12:10 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 06:13:34 am
Using 3rd party asset packs and questionable code is probably a symptom if the map editor being hastily thrown together to appease the backers.
Post by: Malus on January 17, 2017, 06:46:50 am
I haven't looked at the disassembly myself (I don't have access to the map editor) but I'm sure it's very clear which parts of the code relate to the map editor and which relate to the "game". Specifically it sounds as if there are references to things only shown off in videos, not present in the map editor at all, which all but proves that the "game", whatever state it's in, was included alongside the map editor -- or at least the logic was.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 17, 2017, 09:16:30 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 09:19:38 am
Please stop. It's neither clever nor necessary.-snip-
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 17, 2017, 09:22:15 am
Please stop. People keep posting in this thread, when the game is dead. If I don't remind them of that through fun use of.gifs, no one will.Please stop. It's neither clever nor necessary.-snip-
Post by: Malus on January 17, 2017, 09:29:18 am
Post by: Egan_BW on January 17, 2017, 09:50:40 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 10:11:59 am
We're discussing a recently released statement about the game. Your gifs add nothing to the discussion. If you're not going to participate in the discussion and have no interest in the game, simply refrain from posting at all.Please stop. People keep posting in this thread, when the game is dead. If I don't remind them of that through fun use of.gifs, no one will.Please stop. It's neither clever nor necessary.-snip-
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 17, 2017, 10:27:34 am
EDIT: This isn't some "released statement" this is just some guy digging deeper than most, not some "update" on the status of the game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 10:38:56 am
I do agree with you about kickstarter, I didn't back this either and it's rare that I back anything on KS. With two exceptions I have been satisfied with everything I HAVE backed on there, but the total number of projects I've backed is less than two dozen.
I still believe the guy had every intention of making the game but got bogged down trying to make the expanded scope from the stretch goals happen. Regardless, it is not up to you to tell us when we should stop discussing the game. We're allowed to talk about it as long as we wish so I say again, if you're not interested then simply don't post. We don't need your memes and we don't need you to tell us how it's 'totally dead guys please stop'.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 17, 2017, 11:02:55 am
... seriously? after a guy actually dug into the code and proved that it was all smoke and mirrors?
I still believe the guy had every intention of making the game but got bogged down trying to make the expanded scope from the stretch goals happen.
The guy is a scammer. The sooner you face it the better off you will be.
No really, I mean it. I'm reminded of something someone posted elsewhere: some people taken in by confidence tricksters keep believing in them even after they have been exposed and sentenced. Some psychological mechanism linked to sunken cost fallacy. I think your faith in this guy is related to that. Come on forsaken1111, look at the facts. They lied from minute one.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 11:09:17 am
So far, in my opinion, the more likely scenario is that scope creep destroyed his work ethic and now he's unable to face failure. If he scammed anyone, he did a really poor job.
Post by: Malus on January 17, 2017, 12:34:35 pm
If you raise $80k+ with a scam, presumably you want to keep the money. And the only way to do that is to cash out and flee the country... or convince people that you tried, failed, and spent it all, and then hope that most people aren't going to pursue things any further. To that end, dragging "development" on as long as possible is very useful: more backers lose interest and write off their investment, and the ones that stick are placated with increasingly less frequent updates. Eventually you want to stop selling preorders too, because people who've recently given you money will have a much easier time issuing chargebacks.
The fact that so many people still believe that the game wasn't a scam shows that this strategy would work. In terms of effort, it is much, much easier to rig some screenshots and videos, write some forum posts, and release a broken map editor than it is to actually build a working game. Besides insulating you from legal action and chargebacks, it's also less harmful to your reputation: if you make it obvious that you've scammed everyone out of their money, you're going to have dozens of gaming websites writing articles with your name posted front and center calling you a scammer.
Consider everything we've seen of TWS. Do the more recent updates look like the result of 2+ years of steady development?
Post by: Toady One on January 17, 2017, 01:21:30 pm
Post by: Darkmere on January 17, 2017, 01:50:52 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on January 17, 2017, 01:54:17 pm
I also don't think it was a straight up scam, this would be a pretty stupid way to scam when he could've just taken the money and run. I think it was more "I'll fake some vids so I can get the money to make the game for real"
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 03:43:45 pm
I figure it'll be locked before too long.Which turned into "Oh fuck these stretch goals are harder than I originally thought" and the realization that he had no time management skills and a horde of toxic backers realizing he may have exaggerated his original product.
I also don't think it was a straight up scam, this would be a pretty stupid way to scam when he could've just taken the money and run. I think it was more "I'll fake some vids so I can get the money to make the game for real"
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 17, 2017, 06:39:35 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 18, 2017, 06:49:36 am
It's not the stretch goals. He didn't even have the base game. He was full of steaming piles.What are you responding to? Or are you just agreeing with us? I don't think anyone is contending that he started out with a base game at any point.
Post by: Retropunch on January 18, 2017, 07:14:30 am
It's very easy when designing software/games to focus on easy wins/flashy stuff and hope the rest falls into place/you can work it out later. You also realise you need to hook as much initial funding as possible as it's difficult to get any later (when you do all the logic). You then put out screenshots showing that flashy stuff off and then just sort of over exaggerate how close you are to completion.
I've honestly heard software designers say with no irony 'well the program logic isn't there, but everything else is, so it's basically 90% done!'
I can't imagine that he just straight up scammed everyone - there's way easier ways to do it. I imagine that it was just serious, serious mismanagement combined with a lack of game design skills, but that he unfortunately then decided to cover up ineptitude rather than admit to it.
Post by: TempAcc on January 18, 2017, 07:41:40 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 18, 2017, 08:28:41 am
Ye, I don't feel the guy was trying to scam anyone, at least not at first. I feel he just bit way, WAY more than he could chew from the very start, and then instead of admitting to overestimating his own ability to deliver anything close to the initial project, retreated into silent shame and denial (with the monies, ofc).I can kind of agree with this. I don't think it was 100% a scam in the sense that they likely thought they could pull it off... but the campaign was run on false premises.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 18, 2017, 08:34:06 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 18, 2017, 11:35:22 am
I have suspected this for a while. Really, it has been, what, three years? They could have fallen back onto the original idea or even rebuild the base game from scratch assuming all copies of their prototype had mysteriously disappeared (which is also unlikely: look at Project Zomboid: their PCs were stolen and were set back quite a bit, and they still managed to dig out backups).
Post by: Cthulhu on January 18, 2017, 02:16:40 pm
It was a scam, but I don't think it was a malicious "haha gonna steal your money" scam. Just a guy in way over his head thinking he can Lie For Jesus long enough to make it work.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on January 18, 2017, 02:33:25 pm
Post by: Retropunch on January 18, 2017, 03:49:28 pm
The super weird part is that they were 2 guys on the team. It's not unusual for designer/visionaries to have trouble telling the difference between their dreams and designs, and what has actually been accomplished. But in a perfect world such a personality is kept in check by a more down-to-earth, business-oriented, partner. On the surface, that seems exactly like the division of labor they had going on. But somewhere it must have gone wrong. With one of them posting screenshots of the other's Steam playtime history, I don't think the bad blood was faked, like some have suggested. It's pretty sad that not only was a lot of time, goodwill and money lost - a friendship was also lost. I don't think we'll ever get the full story. Perhaps Josh will emerge from seclusion in a couple of years with a finished game. Who knows.
I imagine that they were both simultaneously pulling the wool over the eyes of the other. It probably ended up that they were both in way over their heads and massively behind schedule, but neither of them would admit it. That, along with a few too many 'I'm almost done with xyz' led to just nothing getting done - I've seen it happen plenty of times before.
The issue is that they let it go way, way too far. Especially as it seems that the 'in over their head' limit was pretty much any coding at all.
As you've said, we can live in hopes that something pops up in a few years. I doubt they'll ever get anyone to buy anything from either of them, but they might do it as a bit of redemption-ware.
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 19, 2017, 06:32:10 am
Can't actually do that, shit. Any way to unfollow it?
Post by: Cheeetar on January 19, 2017, 06:43:01 am
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 06:56:06 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 19, 2017, 07:13:55 am
You could just lock it if you really don't want the discussion to continue.I'mma delete this thread for your own sake. Peace or i'll pull the trigger.
Can't actually do that, shit. Any way to unfollow it?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 19, 2017, 07:52:53 am
There were two devs from the Coast
Who of a God Game they did boast
Now they've taken the road
As there was no actual code
And the whole project is toast
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 19, 2017, 09:33:36 am
Though, needless to say, we haven't yet gotten what we were to receive,
But as it seems, the developer is still working on the project.
Maybe one day, a few years from now, we'll have something resembling what we were promised.
Maybe one day.
Post by: TempAcc on January 19, 2017, 10:22:44 am
That is not living which can eternal lie, and with strange years even hype may die
Post by: Retropunch on January 19, 2017, 11:16:35 am
People are talking about what they want to talk about - that can be because it helps them work out what went wrong, constructively vent their annoyances, or maybe even gain insight into how they can avoid similar pitfalls in their development. As long as they're not being abusive (which no one here is) or being purposefully offensive/annoying (again, no one here is) then there's no harm to it. It's a public forum, part of the price you pay for voicing your comments is that others can too.
Locking stuff/shouting 'end of discussion' to everything you dislike is either just being childish, or somehow claiming that your view matters more.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 19, 2017, 11:20:24 am
Since the OP has not locked the thread I guess we can continue.
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 19, 2017, 02:17:00 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 19, 2017, 02:50:14 pm
Locking stuff/shouting 'end of discussion' to everything you dislike is either just being childish, or somehow claiming that your view matters more.
I've definitely seen that. Heck one time the owner of a thread basically did "OK YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!! I AM RIGHT!!! Now you cannot discuss that particular thing anymore!" then when someone contradicted them by showing actual evidence rather then supposition, they went ballistic.
Lock a thread or end a discussion... Don't use it as final word.
Post by: Retropunch on January 19, 2017, 04:26:03 pm
Locking stuff/shouting 'end of discussion' to everything you dislike is either just being childish, or somehow claiming that your view matters more.
I've definitely seen that. Heck one time the owner of a thread basically did "OK YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!! I AM RIGHT!!! Now you cannot discuss that particular thing anymore!" then when someone contradicted them by showing actual evidence rather then supposition, they went ballistic.
Lock a thread or end a discussion... Don't use it as final word.
Agreed, Bay12 is pretty bad for it - I feel it's mainly because the discussion is usually so civil, so people don't have a way of getting their anger out (as they would in a normal forum by getting aggressive/shouty) so the only thing left to do is to tell people to stop talking.declaring a discussion over.
Locking threads is just as bad in my opinion (unless it's gotten way too argumentative/aggressive). It's doing the above, whilst also saying that you've decided that no one can talk about the entire issue anymore because you dislike the way it's going. It's just immature really.
Post by: Frumple on January 19, 2017, 04:37:36 pm
Thread creator's expected to kinda' set the tone/pseudo-moderate the thread (if only by calling in toady or somethin'), so if they're not there or not getting involved, letting go the reigns is more or less right practice. If they think the discussion's better held elsewhere/under differently management (so to speak) for pretty much whatever reason, shuttin' the thread down is probably one of the things t'do. If there's still interest in the discussion and it hasn't been seriously hammered on, another thread can be made.
Post by: nenjin on January 19, 2017, 04:53:20 pm
The TWS thread definitely falls into that category, because people have plenty of reasons to feel X about KDG and express their opinion.
That said, I hate the "You're not allowed to say X in this thread anymore" attempts at stifling opinions as well. A thread by its very nature invites different opinions, and trying to turn them into safe zones is disillusioned at best, intellectually dishonest at worst.
Post by: Neonivek on January 19, 2017, 05:28:35 pm
To the extent that when someone made a Starbound thread that banned that sort of negativity so people could speak... not only did it die, but it was mostly trolled for banning it.
So... the Starbound thread isn't a good example. Since there really weren't people who wanted to talk about it positively and those that did found it ridiculous to even ban negativity.
In fact the majority of people complaining about the negativity in the Starbound thread really had two complaints.
1) That it kept the Starbound thread high in the thread count and they just didn't like seeing it.
and
2) They posted in the thread, didn't want to post in it anymore, but whenever someone posts in it... it updates them...
Post by: Darkmere on January 19, 2017, 05:34:36 pm
I don't think anyone here has been particularly rude (I've certainly been much more of an asshole in the past than this thread has been) so I don't see a reason to shut down discussion...
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 19, 2017, 06:19:20 pm
If you do lock it, I have a final comment.
Though, needless to say, we haven't yet gotten what we were to receive,
But as it seems, the developer is still working on the project.
Maybe one day, a few years from now, we'll have something resembling what we were promised.
Maybe one day.
And with that, the thread is locked. PM me if you want it reopened.
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 25, 2017, 10:42:44 am
Post by: Mephansteras on January 25, 2017, 10:46:26 am
But here is the top paragraph:
Quote
Before I dig into the details let me assure you that you will have your hands on That Which Sleeps in the next few months. Now that I've completely gutted the prior ambitious simulation we're left with a much more tried and true solution to robust AI needs - meaning that at worst case we're looking at the AI making some dumb decisions as opposed to the entire simulation collapsing. The silver lining is that in the time that has passed I've spent a lot of time refining some of the other components as well as continuing to cram the game full of content.
Sounds like we'll be getting something after all!
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 10:48:37 am
fake edit
Oh shit, I'm a week late! :P
Post by: lordcooper on January 25, 2017, 10:51:37 am
I'll believe it when backers have an at least somewhat playable prototype in their hands. It'd be nice if that happened.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 25, 2017, 10:54:28 am
Post by: Mephansteras on January 25, 2017, 11:12:16 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 25, 2017, 11:13:57 am
Post by: lordcooper on January 25, 2017, 11:40:22 am
Post by: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 11:43:01 am
I do look forward to seeing the copious servings of humble pie that get dished out if this ever releases.
Humble Pie has an expiry date :P
Post by: lordcooper on January 25, 2017, 11:45:10 am
Post by: Sergarr on January 25, 2017, 12:25:34 pm
Quote
Now that I've completely gutted the prior ambitious simulation we're left with a much more tried and true solution to robust AI needs - meaning that at worst case we're looking at the AI making some dumb decisions as opposed to the entire simulation collapsing
I reckon it's less about "determination" and more about "general programming know-how"; his AI bug, for example, is a good example of bad programming practices. Recursive function calls in situations where existence of a stable solution is not guaranteed, and without any random component to smooth it out? It's one of those things that first-timer programmers tend to do, because it sure does "look beautiful" (I know because I remember doing something like that when I was new);Where is the "smug" emoji when you need one? :P
If he was more experienced and thus started to work from already existing architectures (of which there are many), which incidentally never use recursion, he at the very least would not have had that problem, which would've accelerated his game development by 1-2 weeks - and that's only on that one problem. He undoubtedly have had many more, of which he hasn't told us, and of them, there were probably many that could've been avoided, saving literally months of coding time.
But yeah, good to see him making actual progress now.
Post by: Cruxador on January 25, 2017, 12:44:39 pm
Some of his negative language seems a bit unnecessary though. He says quests "got neutered", but the decision he made seems like a good one that makes the important quests more important and gameplay potentially less tedious. And some of the things cut there seem like things that could potentially be re-added in some form via DLC if the game actually does come out, does well, and he doesn't want to just wash his hands of the whole affair (which would be understandable).
Post by: Mephansteras on January 25, 2017, 01:01:15 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 25, 2017, 01:03:30 pm
Some of his negative language seems a bit unnecessary though. He says quests "got neutered", but the decision he made seems like a good one that makes the important quests more important and gameplay potentially less tedious. And some of the things cut there seem like things that could potentially be re-added in some form via DLC if the game actually does come out, does well, and he doesn't want to just wash his hands of the whole affair (which would be understandable).
That's just the attitude of a dev grumpy that this really cool thing he thought of isn't actually doable in any reasonable amount of time, when you were so sure it could be done. It probably shouldn't have slipped into the update, but if anything it's just a good sign for us, because it indicates that he's pulled things back to a point where it's reasonable and doable. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Though in general, yeah, I agree - in practice I think these were good decisions from a gameplay standpoint.
Post by: Darkmere on January 25, 2017, 02:13:45 pm
Post by: Retropunch on January 25, 2017, 02:14:03 pm
I have a feeling a good bit of that language reflects his dismay at having to reduce the scope of his original design. Not that cutting/simplifying wasn't a good idea, of course, just that he's probably disappointed in how things went.
It may well be part frustration, but I do wonder if his negative language also reflects how stripped down the game is going to be at the end of it. ANYTHING is better than nothing, but it may well be that the negative language is there to act as a sort of 'don't get your hopes up' message.
Whilst I'm impressed at his efforts to simplify, I'm not going to start the forgiveness train until I actually see some hard code.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 25, 2017, 02:16:43 pm
Post by: Parsely on January 25, 2017, 02:56:32 pm
Practically the minute the dev's work was exposed to the outside world people quickly identified simple mistakes he's made, all of which could have been avoided if he wasn't so scared of looking stupid. Amazing.QuoteNow that I've completely gutted the prior ambitious simulation we're left with a much more tried and true solution to robust AI needs - meaning that at worst case we're looking at the AI making some dumb decisions as opposed to the entire simulation collapsingI reckon it's less about "determination" and more about "general programming know-how"; his AI bug, for example, is a good example of bad programming practices. Recursive function calls in situations where existence of a stable solution is not guaranteed, and without any random component to smooth it out? It's one of those things that first-timer programmers tend to do, because it sure does "look beautiful" (I know because I remember doing something like that when I was new);Where is the "smug" emoji when you need one? :P
If he was more experienced and thus started to work from already existing architectures (of which there are many), which incidentally never use recursion, he at the very least would not have had that problem, which would've accelerated his game development by 1-2 weeks - and that's only on that one problem. He undoubtedly have had many more, of which he hasn't told us, and of them, there were probably many that could've been avoided, saving literally months of coding time.
But yeah, good to see him making actual progress now.
This is what happens when people try to lock themselves in a room and make something. Whatever you emerge with in 1 or 4 or 12 years is either going to be old hat, or completely broken, if you do not give it some exposure to outside observation. At the least you have people making observations that you can use to improve your product. This is why a lot of open source projects are so well maintained and a single person project can end up involving many stupid mistakes (which isn't to say that open source has no weaknesses), because the bad single person project was being done by someone who thought he didn't need feedback because that's how he perceived other smart people to work (history books often fail to cover all the people that men like Einstein and Stephen Hawking were touched by). As my Biology professor said, the smartest person isn't the one who can make the quickest decisions or do things with the least amount of help, he's the guy who is willing to live without prejudice: he accepts that he can be wrong, he operates based on evidence rather than belief, and takes into account observations made by his peers.
The worst part is it's a mistake that gets made over, and over, and over again, because people, indie devs and bigger devs alike, are so affected by this powerful fear of embarrassment that it pushes them to hide their mistakes instead of sharing them so that people can learn.
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 03:35:01 pm
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I don't fault him for deciding noise wasn't going to help him.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 25, 2017, 03:42:37 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 25, 2017, 04:15:51 pm
Post by: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 06:51:09 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 25, 2017, 08:42:39 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 25, 2017, 08:44:34 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 25, 2017, 08:48:58 pm
Fairly sure that just posting a reaction image is firmly against Toad policy, Scoops.is that in the rules somewhere? All I remember is a ban on"image spam" which one image is not. Might want to spoiler it though
Post by: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 09:22:32 pm
Fairly sure that just posting a reaction image is firmly against Toad policy, Scoops.is that in the rules somewhere? All I remember is a ban on"image spam" which one image is not. Might want to spoiler it though
It is mostly because it lags up people's computers and internet something fierce
Rather then it being one of the most obnoxious things ever and being almost universally freeken annoying.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 25, 2017, 09:28:18 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 25, 2017, 09:32:48 pm
Post by: Wiles on January 25, 2017, 09:53:46 pm
So not actually against any rule
There is a rule regarding images in the forum guidelines, but there is some room for interpretation I guess.
"Do not disrupt a thread with spam, giant images or intentionally garbled language. Screenshots and so on that make sense in context are also allowed, but image spam is not allowed. Forum games may use giant images but only in the spirit of the game as defined by the OP."
I could be mistaken but I thought there were reaction gifs moderated out of the thread like 4 pages ago.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 25, 2017, 11:06:40 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 11:41:41 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 25, 2017, 11:44:03 pm
There is a rule regarding images in the forum guidelines, but there is some room for interpretation I guess.I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds a lot more like "don't be a tool" than "no reaction images ever".
"Do not disrupt a thread with spam, giant images or intentionally garbled language. Screenshots and so on that make sense in context are also allowed, but image spam is not allowed. Forum games may use giant images but only in the spirit of the game as defined by the OP."
Post by: Xantalos on January 26, 2017, 01:17:32 am
Post by: Majestic7 on January 26, 2017, 02:32:26 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 26, 2017, 04:40:56 am
Post by: Retropunch on January 26, 2017, 06:40:35 am
Part of the reason I (and others) come here is that it's relatively low bandwidth. Sure I want to see a few pictures, but I don't want my tiny data caps taken up with tired overused gifs that don't relate to the subject.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 06:48:10 am
Post by: Cheeetar on January 26, 2017, 07:41:59 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 07:47:31 am
Dude has a limited amount of time to deal with stuff. People mutually deciding to not act in dickholish ways is far better than acting however and then asking an outside entity to tell us if we're doing good or not.Sure, but now we're arguing interpretations of the rules because someone doesn't like something even though it's not actually against the rules. I'm not saying report everything, I'm saying report something if you think it IS against the rules. There is no need to threaten people or argue about how the rules might actually include something that they don't. Obviously we should not be dicks. I don't think posting a single reaction gif is being a dick. The argument against that single reaction gif has caused more disruption than the gif itself, and posting it is not against any rule I see. It's not excessively large, it's not been spammed. It was only 7kb, it's not like he posted a 3MB HD gif. So this argument is just about "I don't like when people do this so I will stretch the rules so it sounds like they're not allowed"
Post by: Scoops Novel on January 26, 2017, 09:42:15 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 09:51:21 am
So looking at the images included in that update, I can tell he did a lot of work on the interface. Map modes will be a big plus for sorting through all of the faction and opinion information if we'll be playing political groups against one another. The underground strategic view is an unexpected surprise as well. Imagine tunneling over to a city and unleashing horrors in their sewers and then helping your human pawn 'defeat' them and having him proclaimed as a hero or something.
Post by: TempAcc on January 26, 2017, 10:06:32 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 10:10:41 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 26, 2017, 11:08:15 am
Then he just wanders by and digs it back up with an info dump and a vague timeline, effectively restarting the clock. It only really makes sense in the context of not-a-scam, still-trying.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 26, 2017, 11:14:58 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 26, 2017, 11:21:37 am
Post by: lordcooper on January 26, 2017, 11:28:45 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 26, 2017, 11:31:00 am
what if this is the game and we're all already playing it
GoTY 2017
Post by: Xgamer4 on January 26, 2017, 11:33:16 am
Post by: Mephansteras on January 26, 2017, 11:37:28 am
what if this is the game and we're all already playing it
That would explain a lot, wouldn't it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 11:48:07 am
How do I win? Am I doing well?what if this is the game and we're all already playing it
That would explain a lot, wouldn't it.
Post by: nenjin on January 26, 2017, 03:16:24 pm
what if this is the game and we're all already playing it
You think this is a game? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ufw9tDaJ-w)
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2017, 02:07:00 am
I mean if something comes out my body and brain are gonna do a lot of things they don't normally do, just from the shock of it, but come on. We've been to this rodeo before.
The big dev post with lots of cool words and screenshots but nothing to actually show anything is happening. We've done that like ten times at this point. You can't seriously be taking it at face value.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2017, 12:16:23 pm
Quote
You can't seriously be taking it at face value.
It's ok to be wrong Cthulhu.
Post by: Retropunch on January 30, 2017, 12:27:34 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 30, 2017, 12:31:28 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2017, 12:33:22 pm
I seriously, seriously hope no one is taking this at face value. As many posters have said - I'm not trusting anything until I have stone cold code in my hands.
I'm not getting hyped. But honestly watching you guys either doomsay or pat yourselves on the back for doomsaying or doubling down on your doomsaying is way, way more entertaining than the game can possibly be at this point.
Maybe we owe that guy that was calling BS on this game a year ago an apology.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 30, 2017, 03:12:00 pm
I seriously, seriously hope no one is taking this at face value. As many posters have said - I'm not trusting anything until I have stone cold code in my hands.
I'm not getting hyped. But honestly watching you guys either doomsay or pat yourselves on the back for doomsaying or doubling down on your doomsaying is way, way more entertaining than the game can possibly be at this point.
Maybe we owe that guy that was calling BS on this game a year ago an apology.
We don't. He was probably right about this game and it's devs, buuut.... on the other hand he seems a little too fond of right wing conspiracy theories, so...
Post by: ThtblovesDF on January 30, 2017, 03:14:05 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 30, 2017, 03:22:13 pm
Not to mention people called it dead WAY before (try 2 years ago)... so is this just low quality bait?
*sigh* I think most peeps began to think it was dead or at least a slow-burn project years ago, but people keep trying to dig information up to reveal x/y/z--to see whether or not it was a scam in the most recent case--etc. and it brings everyone back, and then some people (like me) get mad because no actual new information is discovered, no real updates are ever issued, and it just adds to the muddied death-quagmire this game has slowly been sinking into since the beginning. It's just a testament to how good of an idea this game was that people can't accept that regardless of what the Dev's progress/vision/intent was: it ded.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 30, 2017, 04:23:04 pm
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2017, 04:30:14 pm
Quote
It's just a testament to how good of an idea this game was that people can't accept that regardless of what the Dev's progress/vision/intent was: it ded.
It's basically this, only, because they liked the idea so much and bought in wholesale, since it hasn't produced anything tangible yet, the only solution is to call it dead. It's the only way to reconcile liking the idea with the reality of it being a year+ behind and on shaky ground at best. Even a "True Fan" would have a hard time standing behind it at this point.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 30, 2017, 05:05:28 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 30, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
Sometimes I think the rush to label it dead is more for the individual's sake than an absolute reflection of reality.
Yep, lol.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2017, 05:10:25 pm
Lots of games end up releasing after more than a year's delay. Few of them end up being very good, but you can hardly call a bad game "dead".
Most games delayed that long, that don't end up being total suck fests, also don't turn over most of their team members and rewrite half the game though :P
To be honest, I've always had problems visualizing how this game is supposed to play, even in the pre-Kickstarter days. But I liked it enough I backed. So I've sort of been watching, disappointed surely but mostly bemused, because in the back of my head I've always wondered if it was going to be ever going to be playable or just an insane jumble of data and screens when it finally did release.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 30, 2017, 05:13:27 pm
I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I just made.Lots of games end up releasing after more than a year's delay. Few of them end up being very good, but you can hardly call a bad game "dead".
Most games delayed that long, that don't end up being total suck fests, also don't turn over most of their team members and rewrite half the game though :P
To be honest, I've always had problems visualizing how this game is supposed to play, even in the pre-Kickstarter days. But I liked it enough I backed. So I've sort of been watching, disappointed surely but mostly bemused, because in the back of my head I've always wondered if it was going to be ever going to be playable or just an insane jumble of data and screens when it finally did release.
Post by: nenjin on January 30, 2017, 05:17:04 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 30, 2017, 05:27:37 pm
Post by: lordcooper on January 30, 2017, 10:20:46 pm
Kerbal Space Program had huge delays, an ever expanding scope, and dev drama.
Torment: Tides of Numenera has had multiple delays and a fair bit of dev/community drama but is going to be fantastic on launch if the last beta is any indication.
The Phantom Pain is about 90% comprised of drama but is still a damn fine game.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2017, 12:43:16 am
That's my biggest problem. I think the game could be made, but I don't trust him because one, he was shown to have faked the original gameplay content he had, which makes me question how much he has now. Two, I don't really trust his ability to code the game here.
Regardless of what Sean said, the thing he did that got him into this mess, as described by Sean, is something they cover in comp sci 101.
Post by: Neonivek on January 31, 2017, 01:01:52 am
Post by: Serenseven on January 31, 2017, 10:56:49 am
Regardless of what Sean said, the thing he did that got him into this mess, as described by Sean, is something they cover in comp sci 101.
As I've explained several times previously both here and on the official fora, I severely simplified the actual problem so that its essentials would be comprehensible to a non-coding audience...such as might be found in a CS 101 course, in fact.
And just because something's covered in a 100-level college course does not necessarily imply that it's trivial to deal with. Pointers were covered in my introductory C++ class, as well as the damage misused ones can cause. And yet some of the thorniest debugging sessions I've faced involved pointer mayhem.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2017, 11:43:46 pm
Now that things have gone all weird, you could always tell us exactly what was going on.
Post by: Ghazkull on February 01, 2017, 07:39:29 am
Post by: Serenseven on February 01, 2017, 08:52:21 am
Now that things have gone all weird, you could always tell us exactly what was going on.
No. No, I think not. The backers shot their messenger; they can wait in silence henceforth.
Post by: birdy51 on February 01, 2017, 08:54:59 am
The face that he is still at least attempting to produce gives me some hope that there will be a product out of it. Yet, I would also agree that not holding your breath is wise. Whether he produces something is purely based upon his unknown stamina to plug through and create the game.
But we'll see what happens. There are so many unknowns in this project that it's difficult to gauge whether we'll have a monster or a whisper in the end.
Post by: lordcooper on February 01, 2017, 09:35:31 am
Now that things have gone all weird, you could always tell us exactly what was going on.
No. No, I think not. The backers shot their messenger; they can wait in silence henceforth.
Bit self important?
Post by: Serenseven on February 01, 2017, 09:55:54 am
Bit self important?
A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
Post by: Retropunch on February 01, 2017, 10:17:50 am
Bit self important?
A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
Erm, your last post before the one defending your simplification was in August last year - I'd hardly say that classifies as 'keeping communication going'.
I completely understand and agree with your reasons for simplifying things, but people are desperate to find out what happened and how much hope there really is left - so if you're genuine about wanting to keep communication going, then I'm sure everyone would be all ears to hear what's really happening behind the scenes.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 01, 2017, 10:20:55 am
Post by: lordcooper on February 01, 2017, 10:32:07 am
Bit self important?
A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
So just popping by to be mysterious for a bit?
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 01, 2017, 10:46:02 am
Sorry you had a bad experience, but that wasn't us. It's certainly not our fault the KS backers were shitheels.Bit self important?
A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
Post by: Serenseven on February 01, 2017, 10:47:13 am
Erm, your last post before the one defending your simplification was in August last year - I'd hardly say that classifies as 'keeping communication going'.
I completely understand and agree with your reasons for simplifying things, but people are desperate to find out what happened and how much hope there really is left - so if you're genuine about wanting to keep communication going, then I'm sure everyone would be all ears to hear what's really happening behind the scenes.
I was speaking of the period from November 2015, when Josh first vanished from the forums and I went and hunted him down, to July/August 2016, when I resigned as a moderator and when I last heard from Josh.
At this point anything I know has been either shared with the official forum, posted publicly here or elsewhere, is no longer relevant to the current state of development, or is something I was told by Josh or Fenicks not to share.
So just popping by to be mysterious for a bit?
Cthulhu mentioned me by name in this thread. I just stopped by to see why I was being talked about.
Post by: Xgamer4 on February 01, 2017, 12:42:57 pm
...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?
Post by: Lapoleon on February 01, 2017, 04:11:21 pm
Bit self important?
A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
Hey, we weren't all that bad Sean ;)
Glad to see my avatar at least is still finding some use. At least one actual thing that TWS has produced :P
Post by: Serenseven on February 02, 2017, 08:24:54 am
...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?
It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.
Post by: nenjin on February 02, 2017, 09:50:40 am
...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?
It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.
Brutal...for a sim game that's a pretty damning take on things.
Post by: Serenseven on February 02, 2017, 07:25:58 pm
It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.
Brutal...for a sim game that's a pretty damning take on things.
Not meant to be entirely damning. After a couple years of trying unsuccessfully to get the plane to fly, I don't think he really had a choice other than scrap it and go for the train.
The tag-based system where modifiers and events and so forth grew "organically" out of AI interactions with and interpretations of the various tags is gone. There is a stricter "type system" (no relation to variable type systems in coding) that is more rules-based now. Josh stopped talking before I could get out of him the entirety of what this means, but from what I understand, the AIs now "decide" much less organically and instead select from a menu of options based on the relevant skills, traits, modifiers, etc. that apply to the current situation. A king making a decision on how to respond to an invasion will have a standard menu of political and military responses, but a king of a magical nation may have additional Ritual responses, a king suffering from a Madness modifier would have "mad" responses, etc.
Josh was vague about this, but I think before the AIs had no restrictions on what they could do (obviously the various systems made some responses far more likely than others, but theoretically anything was possible). Instead of a fixed menu of "mad" options, a king with Madness would try to cobble together a response that included, potentially, anything at all in the game data with the Madness tag. The interaction of many unbounded AIs (and the fact that everything in the game was potentially available to be used in ANY interaction whatsoever) over many turns ensured that eventually some subset of the AIs would get into a mutual positive feedback loop, leading to progressively weirder behavior of the AIs and eventually of the game engine itself, leading to crashing.
The part I left out before was the extreme difficulty of programmatically trying to figure out which few out of a thousand independent and somewhat nondeterministic AI entities are at risk of developing feedback and diverting them from that path without having negative effects on their "competence" or the game's overall stability. There are ways of dealing with such things - feedback issues arise all the time in certain areas of electrical engineering (an audio amplifier is an example of carefully-controlled positive feedback), for example - but I'm not sure that knowledge is widespread in the coding community, and the calculations required to handle a thousand simultaneous entities would be considered a massive undertaking. Josh did try some of the simpler "clamping" methods, wherein a value growing unboundedly is clamped at an arbitrary maximum, but this had severe side effects on the AI - it often would just stop "thinking" (probably because the additional constraint imposed by the clamping gave the AI's scorer no acceptable solution to its model of the problem) - and given the sheer number of entities, he may not have been able to find a more complex solution that still had acceptable performance (remember, the player is waiting for his/her next turn while all this AI work is going on - more than a few seconds and it's taking too long).
But if you instead say that an AI faced with an invasion event can only take one of X predefined actions, with the details of those actions perhaps altered (in well-defined ways) by local modifiers and other situational effects, then you greatly minimize the chance that the AI will fly off the rails because you actually have rails to begin with. And then other AIs looking at the invaded AI can go "Aha! I know he's being invaded, and he's heavy into Lore, so he'll respond in one of 12 standard or 4 lore-based ways." Now, if this other AI knows about local modifiers, than he can factor that into his calculations. If he doesn't, then he assumes the "standard" actions...and his plan might go awry depending on how close the "standard" action corresponds to the reality of the situation.
I think if it was well-implemented, and the pool of available actions and modifiers is sufficiently large to ensure a wide variety of potential results, our model train might still be able to fly a little bit from point to point. It won't have the unrestrained freedom that the plane might have had (and we might not get the hilarious edge-case stories like the Hero with Forty Marriages), but then again, it might not crash and burn constantly, either.
No way to tell, of course, unless/until we can get our hands on the game...
Post by: Retropunch on February 02, 2017, 07:47:27 pm
The part I left out before was the extreme difficulty of programmatically trying to figure out which few out of a thousand independent and somewhat nondeterministic AI entities are at risk of developing feedback and diverting them from that path without having negative effects on their "competence" or the game's overall stability. There are ways of dealing with such things - feedback issues arise all the time in certain areas of electrical engineering (an audio amplifier is an example of carefully-controlled positive feedback), for example - but I'm not sure that knowledge is widespread in the coding community
I'm unsure what you mean by 'feedback' in this context?
It sounds like his original model was literally going for full AI implementation - in terms of that he was attempting to get the AI to understand almost completely arbitrary information, understand it's context and build decisions based upon it. That's like...what the greatest coders in the world are trying to work on.
It's why everyone models their AI the second way; give it a list of possible things it can do, and use variables to choose.
edit: thanks McScoopBeard!
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 02, 2017, 08:23:19 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2017, 11:10:46 pm
He mentioned procedural generation. If you've opened some kind of channel with him again, though it sounds like it might've closed, I'd kind of subtly nudge nudge that we probably wouldn't mind if he abandoned the stretch goals completely for the time being.
Post by: ggamer on February 27, 2017, 12:16:12 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 13, 2017, 03:04:13 pm
This is looking more and more like an organised scam.
Josh (The creator) has another company calling 2 Handsome Guys and they recently launched ANOTHER kickstarter for a card game.
This is all despite having no time and being very stressed with That Which Sleeps.
All information here: http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4769
Post by: Mephansteras on March 13, 2017, 03:10:33 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 13, 2017, 03:18:30 pm
Hmm, disturbing.
What irked me the most was the new partner "Paul" saying he had no connection to Joshua and then was given proof he suddenly pulled the whole "Oh that Joshua!".
Anyways, I'm contacted them for a full refund and reported them to the Trades Bureau.
This is enough now.
Post by: Retropunch on March 13, 2017, 04:09:47 pm
Hmm, disturbing.
What irked me the most was the new partner "Paul" saying he had no connection to Joshua and then was given proof he suddenly pulled the whole "Oh that Joshua!".
Anyways, I'm contacted them for a full refund and reported them to the Trades Bureau.
This is enough now.
Sorrrtaaaaa. I agree, it's shady as hell, but also I know a lot of people in indie industries end up getting intertwined pretty heavily even if the other isn't actively involved.
For instance, I had a friend register me a few domain names he got as a deal with his hosting package - he has had nothing to do with them at all but it made sense at the time. He was involved in completely different projects, but as we were both setting up websites in that area we decided it'd be easier.
I'd also can obviously understand why he wants to take a big step away from him, so I can understand him not wanting to share it widely.
Again, it's shady, but I'd hardly say it's a smoking gun for fraud.
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2017, 11:23:51 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 14, 2017, 11:44:21 am
It feels like every time I look at it people have switched again between belief and despair. Every time.
Post by: Fewah on March 14, 2017, 12:20:08 pm
Hmm, disturbing.
What irked me the most was the new partner "Paul" saying he had no connection to Joshua and then was given proof he suddenly pulled the whole "Oh that Joshua!".
Anyways, I'm contacted them for a full refund and reported them to the Trades Bureau.
This is enough now.
Sorrrtaaaaa. I agree, it's shady as hell, but also I know a lot of people in indie industries end up getting intertwined pretty heavily even if the other isn't actively involved.
For instance, I had a friend register me a few domain names he got as a deal with his hosting package - he has had nothing to do with them at all but it made sense at the time. He was involved in completely different projects, but as we were both setting up websites in that area we decided it'd be easier.
I'd also can obviously understand why he wants to take a big step away from him, so I can understand him not wanting to share it widely.
Again, it's shady, but I'd hardly say it's a smoking gun for fraud.
It's very possible and I'd like to believe this.
But at this point, with all the other bullshit after years now.. It's hard to believe otherwise.
Had that guy just said that he knew josh and instantly explained the situation instead of pretending he didnt it would of been fine.
Things are too shady at this point now.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 14, 2017, 02:41:14 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 14, 2017, 03:13:20 pm
Eh, I'm still in waiting mode. Either I'll get a working version of TWS in some capacity or another or I won't. *shrug*
Heres some very concerning issues, considering the problems and complete lack of delivery from That Which Sleeps.
- Josh, whilst That Which Sleeps was in development hell, has set up a new game company called 2 Handsome. His involvement is proven - he set up the website and is the name on the whois information, his business partner there (Paul) admits his involvement.
- Josh might have been involved in a Kickstarter from September 2016 called Stay Out of My Dungeon!, though Paul denies this.
- Paul admits that Josh *was* involved in Ready Check, a failed Kickstarter from February 2016.
So why the hell has paul admitted that Joshua was involved in ANOTHER kick-starter back in Feb2016, despite not delivering That Which Sleeps? He's also technically, although it wasnt admitted, then involved in Stay Out Of My Dungeon! in September2016.
Theres some seriously wrong shit going on here people or am I crazy?
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2017, 03:16:10 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 14, 2017, 03:26:28 pm
Post by: Retropunch on March 14, 2017, 03:39:13 pm
It might be that they are involved, but it's equally likely that Josh just happened to help him out with a few bits back when TWS was slightly less of a travesty. Sure, he should ask for the domains to be handed over and whatever, but I can also imagine that trying to get that from Josh would be like getting blood out of a stone.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 14, 2017, 03:40:10 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 14, 2017, 03:59:02 pm
Whilst it does seem a little dishonest from Paul, I think it's probably more that he just wants to distance himself from TWS. I can't imagine him stating Joshes minor involvement in any way that wouldn't lead people to believe that they're deeply involved so he probably thought he'd just say that he isn't involved.
It might be that they are involved, but it's equally likely that Josh just happened to help him out with a few bits back when TWS was slightly less of a travesty. Sure, he should ask for the domains to be handed over and whatever, but I can also imagine that trying to get that from Josh would be like getting blood out of a stone.
Ok but Paul directly admitted that JOSHUA was INVOLVED in a kickstarter project they both ran together in February 2016.
The only in which he is saying that Joshua isn't involved in is the one for September 2016.
So no matter what, despite all those delays... Joshua was directly involved, connected and owner of a project for February 2016. Almost 2 years after he's still not delivered on That Which Sleeps.
Just as an update, I spoke to an agent from the Trades Bureau today. They finally returned my call/complaint from the other day, supposedly they're well aware of this "case" as they have numerous complaints regarding this project. I was told legally Joshua or whoever it is has 28 days from the Trades contact with him to refund or deliver the product. However, he did specifically say this isn't the first complaint so they'll be investigating it further and they'd get back to me once a resolution has been reached.
Post by: Retropunch on March 14, 2017, 04:12:02 pm
Whilst it does seem a little dishonest from Paul, I think it's probably more that he just wants to distance himself from TWS. I can't imagine him stating Joshes minor involvement in any way that wouldn't lead people to believe that they're deeply involved so he probably thought he'd just say that he isn't involved.
It might be that they are involved, but it's equally likely that Josh just happened to help him out with a few bits back when TWS was slightly less of a travesty. Sure, he should ask for the domains to be handed over and whatever, but I can also imagine that trying to get that from Josh would be like getting blood out of a stone.
Ok but Paul directly admitted that JOSHUA was INVOLVED in a kickstarter project they both ran together in February 2016.
The only in which he is saying that Joshua isn't involved in is the one for September 2016.
So no matter what, despite all those delays... Joshua was directly involved, connected and owner of a project for February 2016. Almost 2 years after he's still not delivered on That Which Sleeps.
Yes, but Paul is saying that Josh is not INVOVLED in 'Stay out of My Dungeon' which is THE current THING Paul IS doiNG.
I agree that Josh shouldn't have been setting up more kickstarters or involved in other projects - that's not being debated. The issue is that the email in question is asking Paul about Stay of my Dungeon - not other stuff - so he can hardly be claimed to be dishonest about what he hasn't been asked about.
Basically, Paul probably has been factually correct in what he's said. I get the anger about it - I'm pissed off too - but I can't see where Paul has lied, he's just decided to be careful about what he's saying (which I can hardly blame him for under the circumstance)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on March 14, 2017, 04:44:05 pm
He forgot am important point: Iterate. Make progress, don't bite off more then you can chew.
Post by: Fewah on March 16, 2017, 12:30:45 pm
If you gave me all that money I could make a game. It wouldn't have all the promised features (Or most, even) but it would be playable and maybe even fun.
He forgot am important point: Iterate. Make progress, don't bite off more then you can chew.
Or how there was no playable game or even a long multi turn gameplay video?
Or even some basic transparency really, just consistent updates to explain the fallings.
Post by: E. Albright on March 16, 2017, 05:10:36 pm
Had that guy just said that he knew josh and instantly explained the situation instead of pretending he didnt it would of been fine.
The breathless website that "broke" that "story" (linked somewhere upthread?) is so ridiculously slanted it's not even funny. They're taking what is said and not said, and doing far more eyebrow-waggling than their nefarious, sinister discovery merits. I don't have anything invested in this beyond casual interest as an on-again/off-again bystander, but that seems like a witchhunter's site, so to speak. I'd be strongly inclined to take everything it says (and does not say) with a pound of salt.
Post by: Jopax on March 16, 2017, 05:50:14 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on March 16, 2017, 05:57:48 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 16, 2017, 06:04:52 pm
Post by: lordcooper on March 16, 2017, 09:37:05 pm
Had that guy just said that he knew josh and instantly explained the situation instead of pretending he didnt it would of been fine.
The breathless website that "broke" that "story" (linked somewhere upthread?) is so ridiculously slanted it's not even funny. They're taking what is said and not said, and doing far more eyebrow-waggling than their nefarious, sinister discovery merits. I don't have anything invested in this beyond casual interest as an on-again/off-again bystander, but that seems like a witchhunter's site, so to speak. I'd be strongly inclined to take everything it says (and does not say) with a pound of salt.
The site's also full of bizarro right wing crap.
Post by: Fewah on March 17, 2017, 11:04:28 am
Had that guy just said that he knew josh and instantly explained the situation instead of pretending he didnt it would of been fine.
The breathless website that "broke" that "story" (linked somewhere upthread?) is so ridiculously slanted it's not even funny. They're taking what is said and not said, and doing far more eyebrow-waggling than their nefarious, sinister discovery merits. I don't have anything invested in this beyond casual interest as an on-again/off-again bystander, but that seems like a witchhunter's site, so to speak. I'd be strongly inclined to take everything it says (and does not say) with a pound of salt.
That entire blog site is dedicated to crusading against injustice it seems.
I don't really care for the site itself, but more so the things he's posted regarding TWS.
Which once again... given all the other shit going on is shady as hell.
It's also not like he's inventing bullshit out of thin air, he does supply evidence, screenshots and actual factual logic to his accusations.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 17, 2017, 11:12:30 am
Post by: Serenseven on March 17, 2017, 11:40:57 am
Well yeah, it's that one guy who was banned from the threat for having a hateboner for the guys IIRC. They failed to deliver on time or something so he decided to start a one-man crusade to bring them to justice or whatever.
He was banned for attempting to extort KDG with the threat of negative publicity if the beta wasn't released before a deadline he arbitrarily set. Joe/Fenicks banned him in response, and, well, the guy did at least have the stones to follow through on his threat.
He may well be proven right in the end, but his behavior at the time clearly merited the ban.
Post by: Fewah on March 17, 2017, 11:52:45 am
Well yeah, it's that one guy who was banned from the threat for having a hateboner for the guys IIRC. They failed to deliver on time or something so he decided to start a one-man crusade to bring them to justice or whatever.
He was banned for attempting to extort KDG with the threat of negative publicity if the beta wasn't released before a deadline he arbitrarily set. Joe/Fenicks banned him in response, and, well, the guy did at least have the stones to follow through on his threat.
He may well be proven right in the end, but his behavior at the time clearly merited the ban.
I re-read the article, http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=2642
It seems more like he was calling them out on their bullshit and the fact that they missed every deadline, had no gameplay, lied about multiple things etc.
I'm not really seeing him extort them other than saying "hey im going to write on my blog about all the BS you've pulled if you done come through with your promises".
Which really he was completely entitled to, since they were already 1year + behind with no information really being shared.
This guy is probably one of those zealots, but he's got some really good reasons to act that way against TWS.
Post by: Zangi on March 17, 2017, 12:45:30 pm
Post by: Retropunch on March 18, 2017, 08:07:26 am
They don't have to cater to his whims, and if they don't meet his standards he can ask for a refund and be done with it.
It's not a defense of KDG, they definitely messed up, but I feel that this is a case of someone who personally feels slighted rather than that he has uncovered a massive conspiracy.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 18, 2017, 09:04:34 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 18, 2017, 11:30:35 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 18, 2017, 12:01:20 pm
Post by: Darkmere on March 18, 2017, 02:33:19 pm
'offended middle aged house wife' self importance
Best and most accurate thing I'll read all day. Thank you, I needed this.
Post by: Sunday on March 20, 2017, 11:21:43 am
At this point, I wish Paradox would take the general concept behind this game (slowly awakening ancient evil trying to bring about the apocalypse), and make a game using the CKII engine --- the character AI for all the people in the game would basically already be programmed, and they'd just have to make a system where you could manipulate the characters with magic (and simulate the "slowly awakening" aspect of the game). They could actually make a really fun game, and it would be way easier than starting from scratch.
Probably won't happen though. Ah well.
Post by: TempAcc on March 20, 2017, 12:49:25 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 20, 2017, 03:17:05 pm
Aside from the whole AI being dynamic and non linear.. it's a pretty straight forward concept.
I suppose the entire concept might only a appeal to a smaller demo-graph of gamers though.
Post by: nenjin on March 20, 2017, 04:56:55 pm
Post by: Fewah on March 23, 2017, 11:04:46 am
Joshua now has 22 days to provide concrete proof and evidence of a product beyond simple screenshots.
Should myself or others feel unsatisfied at the state of development after 22days he's supposedly going to be forced to offer refunds in mass.
I asked the agent on the phone and he couldn't give me specifics due to privacy, but said there are over 50+ complaints filed regarding King Dinosaur Games as well as Joshua being connected to ANOTHER case that is pending investigations as well.
The agent even agreed that this is looking more and more like an organized Scam with nothing more than artist being paid to give off a fake impression of a product.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 24, 2017, 01:04:18 pm
I think I'm more interested in the other case... what could that possibly be? How does the Trades Bureau determine cases? Would the Kickstarter funds be one case, and the PayPal backers be a separate, distinct, case? That doesn't seem immediately unreasonable.
It still just seems like *so much* effort to be put into a scam, though.
Post by: Retropunch on March 24, 2017, 01:52:11 pm
I imagine he does probably have more than that though. As Xgamer4 said, it's so, so much effort for a scam - and there'd be no point in him continuing to this degree if it was just an organised scam. There's probably not a great deal there, but enough to prove that he had every intention of continuing development.
That's not to say he won't be made to give you a refund, just that to prove it's a scam they've got to prove he's done literally no development, which isn't the case.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 24, 2017, 05:40:05 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 24, 2017, 06:25:25 pm
You know, I started wondering recently whether his last post was precisedly because he received a letter demanding proof or providing reimbursement, and that he doesn't actually have jackshit.
Someone mentioned that on the Kickstarter as well. I don't really have a good response to it, other than putting it up really only feeds us. Proof for a third party (the Trades Bureau, for instance) is likely to happen separately and discretely.
The other thing is that I kinda feel like a lot of people jumping onto the "it's a scam!" thing don't really have a full grasp of the timeline and challenges. The game started gaining notice in August of 2014 (at the latest - that's the creation of this topic, *after* lots of attention on indiedb and tigsource), and by that time there were screenshots, corroborated pieces of news, massive QAs with Josh, and other piles of evidence that suggest, at the very least, a stuffed design document and concept art. Given that Josh is a developer and Joe is not an artist, concept art is less likely than some kind of tech demo.
That's already far more effort put into a scam than a scam is going to require, and that was a month before the Kickstarter was created.
Then the Kickstarter itself. The original intent of the Kickstarter was just art. That was it. We have significant circumstantial evidence that art was purchased and integrated.
Then stretch goals hit, notably Procedural Generation and Endless Simulation. These things are *hard*. We're sitting on the Dwarf Fortress forums. We know they're hard. Not only are they hard, they were explicitly picked back up from the cutting-room floor, where they were left because they were hard.
A good six-nine months of the delay was because Josh had to start from the ground up to make an engine that could support procedural generation and endless simulation. This makes sense - the existing engine wouldn't and couldn't support it, because the decision was originally made that it didn't need to, in favor of quick iteration and getting something out. (As a dev myself, I do want to note - and did note at the time - that 6-9 months for a fundamental rewrite of something at that scale is actually quite good, but still easily within the realm of believable.)
I don't have a specific date for when this engine overhaul ended. This was only really detailed on the forums, and that section was nuked from orbit. Probably around June/July 2015, if I had to guess. Not mentioned is the family medical issues as well.
Mid-October 2015 he publishes the First Turns/New Map video, with a promised series, that never materializes.
The likeliest reason the series never materialized is because, on advancing to the next few turns, he ran into the AI issues he then spent the next *very long* time trying to fix. This is also about when he went full-recluse, and the only real communication we had was courtesy of Serenseven / Sean acting as an intermediary. From Sean, we received interesting updates, and the news that the problem was with the AI. Also reasonable - AI is not exactly easy in the "easy" cases, and suffice to say that Josh hadn't set himself up to make it easy. Communication eventually ceased through Sean (in retrospect, understandable, because everything that made it to the forums just increased the vitriol).
And that's basically the entirety of 2016, other than a few unexpected map redesigns that crop up.
January 2017, Josh crops up on Kickstarter and provides new information. He tweaked the map even more, sure, but notably - he gave up on his original novel AI implementation and went to something far more tried-and-true.
That alone covers multiple map redesigns (at best actual, full-on, redesigns - at worst, time spent in Photoshop mocking up maps.) that no one asked for or wanted. QA sessions that go into crazy detail of a vision for the game. And more.
And on top of that, each step is pretty believable on its own. These are problems developers face. These aren't easy problems, either.
And that's not even touching on botched map maker and mod tool releases (that on their own prove *something* was done, even if they don't exactly do much), more massive QA sections on the forums, and other tidbits here and there.
That's why I don't think it's a direct, organized scam. We're talking about massive piles of work *just to fake game development* over the course of *2.5 years* for a measly $80k split between 2 people, less whatever art commissions cost.
The alternative explanation is that Josh had this great idea, actually began programming it, bit off more than he could chew in stretch goals, and out of a mix of pride and misplaced honor burned significant amounts of time trying to swallow that which he couldn't chew.
Or, summarized, one side is that two people went into elaborate detail for a scam, for about $17k/yr, and the other is that a developer fell prey to something so common for devs to wander face-first into, that it actually has a name - scope creep.
That altogether is why I say there's *so much* effort put into it for a scam.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 25, 2017, 04:58:31 am
Then there's that thing that guy with the strange blog discovered, of them starting ANOTHER kickstarter afterwards (for a tabletop game) with a similar premise, and similar delays..
Dunno. The whole thing stinks to me
Post by: Neonivek on March 25, 2017, 06:34:33 am
I don't buy the "stretch goal death" explanation because in that case there should be an original, unexpanded game. And everything suggests that there isn't. The original mates of the guy didn't actually see the game, and so,e guy in another forum picked up the "map editor" and found that it likely served as the basis for the screenshots (the guy who did this compared it to "a car chassis with no engine". This is significant because it diverts a lot from their original claim of everything working, just lacking art).
Then there's that thing that guy with the strange blog discovered, of them starting ANOTHER kickstarter afterwards (for a tabletop game) with a similar premise, and similar delays..
Dunno. The whole thing stinks to me
The most likely explanation was that there was a LOT less in the game than he was letting on... and that most of the screens and videos we saw was basically... Spore... Well the earliest spore video.
As in the game isn't actually made... So he cobbled together something to look like it was gameplay... and what there was could only generously be called concept art and concept videos.
Spore is kind of the most interesting case because some of the things in the demo were things that were discovered to be flat out impossible for the final game... So the degree of how much of that demo was kind of a fabrication was impressively immense.
Post by: Sergarr on March 25, 2017, 07:55:43 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 25, 2017, 11:37:00 am
I don't buy the "stretch goal death" explanation because in that case there should be an original, unexpanded game. And everything suggests that there isn't. The original mates of the guy didn't actually see the game, and so,e guy in another forum picked up the "map editor" and found that it likely served as the basis for the screenshots (the guy who did this compared it to "a car chassis with no engine". This is significant because it diverts a lot from their original claim of everything working, just lacking art).
Then there's that thing that guy with the strange blog discovered, of them starting ANOTHER kickstarter afterwards (for a tabletop game) with a similar premise, and similar delays..
Dunno. The whole thing stinks to me
The most likely explanation was that there was a LOT less in the game than he was letting on... and that most of the screens and videos we saw was basically... Spore... Well the earliest spore video.
As in the game isn't actually made... So he cobbled together something to look like it was gameplay... and what there was could only generously be called concept art and concept videos.
Spore is kind of the most interesting case because some of the things in the demo were things that were discovered to be flat out impossible for the final game... So the degree of how much of that demo was kind of a fabrication was impressively immense.
Yeah, I went for an extremely-cursory overview of the easily-verified situation when I wrote out my earlier post. I think this is the most likely case - and Josh actually half-admits to it on the very first page of this topic:
...
We've mostly tried to keep it quiet up until now because we wanted a playable demo before we really got the word out - but since a few of the gaming sites picked us up we are making it a priority to be an active participant in some of the discussions happening in and around the creation of the game.
...
Implication being that they didn't have a playable demo circa August, and I seriously doubt one got finished in a month and a half.
Also! Same page (at my settings) I found this, about a persistent world. I think it lends extreme credence to the idea that they were in over their head from stretch goals:
As for persistent world... that's a really "historical" question for us. We actually tried to make a strategy game based around a persistent world... almost ten years ago at this point. The pitfalls of the design were such that we ended up rejecting the game entirely after a lot of effort, so we've leaned more towards treating your repeated attempts at victory as "a repeating cycle". We DID plan on an Old One who does reuse a single corrupted hero from a prior game, but that Old One is not confirmed to be added and I'd say it's 50/50 if we end up using him.
Not only was that Old One added, but they explicitly changed their mind towards a persistent world.
Post by: Fewah on March 28, 2017, 09:58:38 am
Once again theres been no word or information at all.
Post by: AlStar on March 28, 2017, 10:14:20 am
What blows my mind is that despite all the bullshit he still falls behind on any "update".I think he must be waiting for everyone to give up hope again before posting another update. I'm not a backer, but just skimming this thread, it seems to be the reoccurring pattern: HOPE ... time passes... DISBELIEF ...time passes... ANGER ...time passes... RESIGNATION ... time passes... *NEW POST*
Once again theres been no word or information at all.
Post by: toonguy40 on April 11, 2017, 11:14:00 pm
Edit: It's the 15th now, so the date has passed. Josh hasn't posted any update. You haven't responded to this comment yet, but if you could Fewah please do tell me if there's been any update on your part. If not, I'd ask that you try and make contact with the Bureau again, as I was hyped and am now very curious about what happened.
Post by: Fewah on April 18, 2017, 03:32:44 pm
Hey Fewah, I made an account on here specifically to ask this question: Are you in the States? Because people on the forums questioned whether you were meaning the FTC since you referred to the government agency as the "Trades Bureau". Your date of 22 days at the time you wrote your post would mean this Friday if I'm right, but I'm not sure how much enforcement of refunds would actually happen if they aren't affiliated with the United States, especially on a broader level. Outside jurisdiction etc etc.
Edit: It's the 15th now, so the date has passed. Josh hasn't posted any update. You haven't responded to this comment yet, but if you could Fewah please do tell me if there's been any update on your part. If not, I'd ask that you try and make contact with the Bureau again, as I was hyped and am now very curious about what happened.
Yes it's the FTC, but when you call and speak to the agents they reply with Bureau.
Update, I contacted them again just to follow up and they said the investigation is ongoing and there are no further updates as they've been unable to contact Josh by conventional means. I have no idea what that means... I'm guessing telephone and mail?
In regards to your question about time... they said specifically BUSINESS DAYS, so weekends and official holidays do not count towards the allowed response and delivery time. The fact that the FTC acknowledged that had initial contact with him and gave him a deadline to do something... is really odd how hes once again put out an update months ago and gone completely silent AGAIN.
How you're unable to at least write a paragraph here and there is beyond me.
I'm supposed to get a follow up in a week, but I feel like I'll probably have to call back.
Take this for what you want, but its looking like Josh is MIA even towards the government.
Post by: toonguy40 on April 20, 2017, 02:42:57 pm
I'm still excited, actually! I've been on this ride for... About two years, now that I think about it. Only backed in late 2015. The hindsight that I thought beta was coming out in just a few weeks for... Months on end, back then, combined with the fact that Shadows Behind the Throne (which I'd highly suggest everybody try out!) is becoming a thing... It really makes me realize that whether by scam or perfectionism or an inability to get it to work right to a playable degree... TWS probably isn't going to come out, at least not by Josh. If he does, great!
I don't have my hopes up anymore, though. So yes, thank you! I'm VERY curious to see what happens next week or in the weeks to come.
Edit: Same as before, any update/any chance you can try to get an update? Josh avoiding the government is quite the development, and I'm really curious if they've either A. Regained contact with him or B. What the plan is if he's still unresponsive. Since I can't imagine the Bureau would just sit around and wait for very long, but I have no idea if they have the resources to send an agent to his residence or the authority to have local police visit and forcibly regain contact.
Post by: Fewah on May 01, 2017, 10:27:34 am
Thank you for the response! Again, I was very excited for the potential of some conclusion to this whole ordeal... Whether that be positive with Josh having something for us to screw around with (if not beta then I was hoping for some sort of scenario viewer, personally) or negative with Josh making an update about refunds.
I'm still excited, actually! I've been on this ride for... About two years, now that I think about it. Only backed in late 2015. The hindsight that I thought beta was coming out in just a few weeks for... Months on end, back then, combined with the fact that Shadows Behind the Throne (which I'd highly suggest everybody try out!) is becoming a thing... It really makes me realize that whether by scam or perfectionism or an inability to get it to work right to a playable degree... TWS probably isn't going to come out, at least not by Josh. If he does, great!
I don't have my hopes up anymore, though. So yes, thank you! I'm VERY curious to see what happens next week or in the weeks to come.
Edit: Same as before, any update/any chance you can try to get an update? Josh avoiding the government is quite the development, and I'm really curious if they've either A. Regained contact with him or B. What the plan is if he's still unresponsive. Since I can't imagine the Bureau would just sit around and wait for very long, but I have no idea if they have the resources to send an agent to his residence or the authority to have local police visit and forcibly regain contact.
No news
I was specifically told they'd contact me when they have something to report to the consumer and me following up wouldnt lead to any different responses.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 15, 2017, 02:10:51 am
Post by: Xantalos on May 15, 2017, 02:19:07 am
Post by: Darkmere on May 15, 2017, 02:54:24 am
Post by: Xantalos on May 15, 2017, 02:58:36 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on May 15, 2017, 03:09:54 am
Post by: Darkmere on May 15, 2017, 04:11:06 am
There's a link to the kickstarter in the OP, but it's basically another update where he's done some stuff and apologizes again for how long this whole deal's taking. It does rather dispel the notion of it being an intentional scam, though I do doubt it'll be done anytime soon.
... Yeah I heard kickstarter and immediately thought it was the backer's only bit. My mistake, sorry.
I still want to see a video, though.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 15, 2017, 05:02:29 am
If he actually gives a release date and follows it through I'll actually concede on this. Otherwise? He's a crook until proven innocent.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 15, 2017, 05:08:24 am
If its not a scam they could give me my money back : )Um, the only way you could possibly get your money back is if it is a scam.
Post by: Frumple on May 15, 2017, 07:25:59 am
Post by: Zangi on May 15, 2017, 08:17:24 am
Post by: Mephansteras on May 15, 2017, 09:04:40 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 15, 2017, 10:40:11 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 15, 2017, 11:08:03 am
But this is, and has always been, a grand strategy game in the vein of Paradox's games... the map is about the only thing you really *can* take screenshots of, because it's what you'll spend 98% of the game staring at.
And while it certainly looks complicated, I'd rather reserve judgment on opaque... At the very least, it's not looking any worse than Crusader Kings 2, and other games of its ilk. Not that that's a particularly high bar as far as "intuitive and clear UI" goes.
Post by: Cruxador on May 15, 2017, 11:30:57 am
And while it certainly looks complicated, I'd rather reserve judgment on opaque... At the very least, it's not looking any worse than Crusader Kings 2, and other games of its ilk. Not that that's a particularly high bar as far as "intuitive and clear UI" goes.What's on CK2's map? There's provinces, which are colored according to ownership - this much is intuitive to anyone who has seen a real map. There's shields that represent a province's owner, which is intuitive if you've seen a very specific type of old map, but if you haven't it'll still quickly make sense because shields are used all over the place, and you can click them to see what each specific one means. And the only other thing you've got is little soldiers walking about on the map, and arrows to show where they're going; that much is totally intuitive. You've got city sprawl which is purely aesthetic and little details like harbor models and a crown for the capital that are handy if you know them but aren't super important otherwise. And then there's your personal council, who stand on the map where you put them, making them entirely obvious.
Compare that to this, where each province is a circle with dots and icons all over it, and the map has all kinds of icons and dots on it as well, and even though he wrote a big thing explaining it I still don't know what they all are. This is definitely a game with a learning curve, at the very best.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 15, 2017, 11:49:54 am
And while it certainly looks complicated, I'd rather reserve judgment on opaque... At the very least, it's not looking any worse than Crusader Kings 2, and other games of its ilk. Not that that's a particularly high bar as far as "intuitive and clear UI" goes.What's on CK2's map?
(Sidenote: "Intuitive" in the context I'm using it is roughly "intuitive how to read and use the map in the course of gameplay" and not "it's clear what the map means".)
That's about half my point. CK2 does "clear" very well. You look at it, and you almost immediately know what you're looking at. Unfortunately, until you figure out how to dive through map modes and alternate screens, that doesn't do you any good at actually playing the game, so I wouldn't exactly give it "intuitive". That Which Sleeps seems to scratch out "clear" in favor of presenting all the information up-front (apparently spread across multiple zoom levels). The potential is there for everything to be front-and-center and intuitive... once you've beaten the learning curve and know what you're looking at.
As for that learning curve... I'm not too worried about it immediately. This genre is notorious for learning cliffs. That Which Sleeps certainly isn't indicating it'll be any easier to get into than others in its genre, but I'm not seeing any obvious indication it'll be worse either.
Post by: Cruxador on May 15, 2017, 12:37:49 pm
Intuitive literally means "easy to intuit" and "intuit" means to discern something automatically. If you have to beat the learning curve, it's definitionally not intuitive. And you don't need alternate map modes to play CK2, they're just an added tool. But they too are pretty easy since you mousover the button for them and it tells you what they do. It might be that the information presented in these screenshots is similarly non-essential (we won't know until/unless we play it someday) but the fact that it's being put front and center like this makes it seems as though at the very least the developer thinks it should matter.And while it certainly looks complicated, I'd rather reserve judgment on opaque... At the very least, it's not looking any worse than Crusader Kings 2, and other games of its ilk. Not that that's a particularly high bar as far as "intuitive and clear UI" goes.What's on CK2's map?
(Sidenote: "Intuitive" in the context I'm using it is roughly "intuitive how to read and use the map in the course of gameplay" and not "it's clear what the map means".)
That's about half my point. CK2 does "clear" very well. You look at it, and you almost immediately know what you're looking at. Unfortunately, until you figure out how to dive through map modes and alternate screens, that doesn't do you any good at actually playing the game, so I wouldn't exactly give it "intuitive". That Which Sleeps seems to scratch out "clear" in favor of presenting all the information up-front (apparently spread across multiple zoom levels). The potential is there for everything to be front-and-center and intuitive... once you've beaten the learning curve and know what you're looking at.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 15, 2017, 12:48:10 pm
Intuitive literally means "easy to intuit" and "intuit" means to discern something automatically.I thought the Intuit were the native tribes of the Artic Circle...
Post by: Darkmere on May 15, 2017, 02:20:02 pm
Intuitive literally means "easy to intuit" and "intuit" means to discern something automatically.I thought the Intuit were the native tribes of the Artic Circle...
That's Inuit. Also not to be confused with round tuits. (https://www.google.com/search?q=round+tuit&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigkLO4zvLTAhUE7WMKHaRcAy4QsAQIkAE&biw=1268&bih=681&dpr=1.2)
Post by: nenjin on May 15, 2017, 02:29:57 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on May 19, 2017, 12:58:29 am
What a fucking ride this entire thing has been. (https://bobbytwohands.itch.io/shadows-behind-the-throne)
Post by: Hanzoku on May 19, 2017, 01:32:02 am
Given that there's no sign TWS will ever be released, this sort of thing helps relegate it to the ashheap of history.
Post by: Xantalos on May 19, 2017, 01:40:45 am
That was a thing.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2017, 01:47:19 am
Post by: Egan_BW on May 19, 2017, 01:51:18 am
Post by: Cthulhu on May 19, 2017, 02:32:52 am
Haha, I can't help but hope he is just trolling to incite the original dude to actually finish the project.
Why? It's a good game and it exists and you can play it. Fuck Josh's game.
Post by: Isdar on May 19, 2017, 04:20:20 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2017, 05:18:21 am
Haha, I can't help but hope he is just trolling to incite the original dude to actually finish the project.
Why? It's a good game and it exists and you can play it. Fuck Josh's game.
Because we are in the werewolf country and absurd plot twists are only to be expected. Alternative suggestion, the dude is actually Josh under different alias.
Post by: Zangi on May 19, 2017, 05:21:21 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2017, 09:00:22 am
Post by: Mephansteras on May 19, 2017, 09:42:07 am
Post by: Scoops Novel on May 19, 2017, 03:38:22 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 19, 2017, 05:43:25 pm
Hastur vs Cthulu. Fight fight fight!
I believe Cthulhu is stronger awake so in terms of raw power... But honestly once you are in the Hastur and Cthulhu levels of power... Things become incredibly murky and there is even a question if one really could defeat another. They are on the same order of magnitude.
So honestly it is kind of a wash overall.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 19, 2017, 06:00:00 pm
Besides, Hastur isn't a being
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2017, 07:18:12 pm
Hastur vs Cthulu. Fight fight fight!I found the King in Yellow to be a more enjoyable book and Chambers to be a better author in general.
This is the worst kind of thing you can do to this stuff. Which is stronger, who beats what, it's dumb, come on.The original sources are ambiguous and contradictory, but it was a being in the very first naming and could have been one in Chambers' stories, though his usage is monumentally varied. Lovecraft and Derleth both held it to be one. Common usage seems to consider Hastur to be the same - or if different, then not in any defined way - as the King in Yellow.
Besides, Hastur isn't a being
Post by: Cthulhu on May 19, 2017, 07:34:20 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 21, 2017, 09:45:07 am
Hastur vs Cthulu. Fight fight fight!I found the King in Yellow to be a more enjoyable book and Chambers to be a better author in general.
Somehow William Hope Hodgson is also a better author who wrote earlier. Somehow he always gets left out of the discussions.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2017, 10:12:28 am
The original sources are ambiguous and contradictory
Honestly sometimes I wish this was a LOT more intentional then it often ends up being.
I mean, it would make sense... these are myths and legends of beings beyond human understanding... often written by people who are mad or have no strong way of knowing... As well as there being intentional misdirection. There is every reason to believe this information might be inaccurate and the fact that it is true actually helps make the atmosphere uneasy. In fact, even the Lovecraftian gods are not omnisentient and know everything or close to everything.
As well even the aspect of them being "Unknowable" also paints it well with them seemingly having completely contradictory personalities, motivations, and identities. The idea of them being "One thing" is a very human concept and doesn't apply to them at all... As well you never know how it works, it could honestly be a trick or disguise. This also explains why cultists could form, beyond outright insanity, because they don't always take a directly antagonistic role (It just often works out as almost a deal with the devil at least long term).
Unfortunately... It often feels to me that it was just outright inconsistent writing, then it having particularly strong themes.
Post by: E. Albright on May 21, 2017, 11:45:04 am
Post by: Ludorum Rex on May 21, 2017, 03:43:02 pm
As for his mythos, it was probably never intended to be consistent and with an established canon, as is the case with the world-building of modern fantasy, horror and sci-fi litterature. He was trying to make a living from his short stories, and his mythos was a by-product and toolbox of this, rather than the goal. As you probably know, he also considered himself a poor writer and was very harsh in his self-critique. Some of the well-known Lovecraftian tales were binned by the man himself, as he thought they were unfit for publication.
He was an extremely important figure in the development of fantasy, horror and sci-fi litterature, and even if he isn't a great writer in the classical sense, I think most of you are being overly dismissive of his importance and creativity.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2017, 03:59:27 pm
People forget that even in his books almost ABOUT the other mythos... It is usually not about them (or they never EXACTLY appear).
So I think they expect Cthulhu to just pop out and go "Boogey boogedy!" or for characters to just constantly go insane all the time.
Quote
even if he isn't a great writer in the classical sense
He is actually pretty good. A huge thing he avoids, for example, in one of his stories is making everyone a total idiot just because it is a horror.
This one fact alone upgrades him from the bottom barrel that plagues horror.
Post by: Cruxador on May 21, 2017, 06:10:28 pm
In the case of the various stories within The King in Yellow, it is almost certainly designed to work as it does. I think that it's generally safe to assume that such things are intentional when they're published as a set.The original sources are ambiguous and contradictory
Honestly sometimes I wish this was a LOT more intentional then it often ends up being.
You state well the crux of the matter. Lovecraft was not, alas, a very good writer. His ideas were interesting, but contradictory and included some painfully lazy tropes. A major reason they work and resonate despite this is their vagueness, and tellingly, the more precise they get the more they look like cheesy cardboard cutouts. Derleth, ofc, took failing-through-precision to another level, as do most latter-day homages.Hastur isn't Lovecraft's. The form in which he is most often recognized, if we ignore Derleth's work, is that defined by Chambers. Prior to whom he was a non-specific object of worship for a shepherd that knew next to nothing of society, and in Lovecraft's work, he is referred to only as a name among others.
As for Lovecraft's skill, I think that's too broad of a statement to accurately make. Lovecraft excellently constructed evocative language and his adeptness at pacing was unquestionable. The broader strokes of story, and worldbuilding in particular, may not have been as defined as we expect to see in more modern authors, but complaining that he didn't reach those standards is a bit silly since there's no evidence he really had that kind of thing as a goal. For most of his career, anyway, but he got better at it towards the end of his life by most folks' judgement.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2017, 06:21:11 pm
The modern definition of Eldritch was created by Lovecraft.
The original source of the word kind of means "related to elves" or something along those lines.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 21, 2017, 06:22:54 pm
Post by: E. Albright on May 21, 2017, 06:36:05 pm
his adeptness at pacing was unquestionable
Enh. Way too many of his works have a clearly-telegraphed "shocking reveal" at the end - often as their last sentence - for this to ring true. He was a journeyman writer, not a master. His work is certainly readable, but it's clunky and stilted. We're well into subjective YMMV territory at this point, though.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2017, 06:52:16 pm
Quote
Way too many of his works have a clearly-telegraphed "shocking reveal" at the end
Aren't they supposed to be telegraphed most of the time?
But fine... So he is on the level of Conan Doyle... But is no George Orwell.
Fine enough.
Post by: Sunday on May 21, 2017, 06:57:17 pm
his adeptness at pacing was unquestionable
Enh. Way too many of his works have a clearly-telegraphed "shocking reveal" at the end - often as their last sentence - for this to ring true. He was a journeyman writer, not a master. His work is certainly readable, but it's clunky and stilted. We're well into subjective YMMV territory at this point, though.
I used to feel the same way, but I recently reread a collection of his stories and really enjoyed them. And he has a few moments in a couple of his stories that are genuinely awesome (in a shocking/eerie way). Not every story though, I will admit. And for some reason the dude loved writing about gambrel roofs (feel like he mentions them in every story).
I do think part of it is that we're so accustomed to plot twists/shocking reveals now --- but then again, you could say the twists of O. Henry (or even Flannery O'Connor) are too obviously telegraphed, but no one questions their bona fides.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2017, 07:24:26 pm
Most of the time they are telegraphed... because they are telegraphed :P
Shadow over Innsmouth is a good example of this.
---
But this would be like saying how MacBeth's defeat in Shakespeare is bad... because the twist was telegraphed :P
Post by: Cthulhu on May 21, 2017, 09:41:03 pm
I think he was outdone by a lot of his contemporaries and laters, and I think he's got an interesting writing style but I dunno if it works. He goes from very clinical and detached language to extreme visceral detail which when done right has a sort of textual dolly zoom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbeXzJDYxS0) effect but doesn't usually work.
Chambers wasn't the best writer but I like him more than Lovecraft, Machen, Blackwood, etc. outdid him big time. As far as modern people go I think he's completely supplanted by Ligotti, though only his early work is really Lovecraftian. He focuses in on what I think actually makes Lovecraft scary, the pointlessness of human existence in the face of these things.
There's too much "hey it's a thing and it's eldritch and some other words that don't mean anything, everyone's insane, you're scared now because that's what happens here" in Lovecraft but especially his imitators. I hate that shit so much. It's not scary. Even when I like Lovecraft he was only actually scary in The Color Out of Space.
Something I've been getting into lately is Theory Horror, which is horror fiction written in theoretical and technical genres. irl theory horror (http://darmfield.com/3562/media/Ethic_of_Expediency_Memo.pdf)
The ultimate theory horror is Cyclonopedia by Reza Negarestani.
Quote
Hidden Writing can be described as utilizing every plot hole, all problematics, every suspicious obscurity or repulsive wrongness as a new plot with a tentacled and autonomous mobility. / / The central or main plot is reinvented solely in order that it may stealthily host, transport and nurture other plots. / / Every hole is a footprint left by at least one more plot prowling underneath.
If memory holes cause such accessibility problems for the subject, it is because they have been specifically designed for being accessed from the other side.
Post by: Frumple on May 21, 2017, 10:28:14 pm
The light held off the darkness, murdered down to the last five or so thousand humans, half of them slaves to a crippled god, with the one last sanctuary of humanity surrounded by literal miles of shoggoth that were apparently too lazy to actually go inside and eat the entirely undefended encampment. I can only assume the constant rebellions popping up to be immediately eaten by the shoggoths were some kind of sacrifice scheme the gibbering remains of mankind enacted to pacify the beasts, and the bright future is an eternity of tossing one out of every ten or so people into the world beasts that have became their new existence. Definitely a work in progress, but it's pretty neat regardless.
... part of me thinks maybe I don't quite get this whole subtle spreading darkness thing, though. I mean, it still counts if everyone's been eaten after half the world united to destroy my fish city, right?
Post by: Cruxador on May 22, 2017, 12:26:38 am
The light held off the darkness, murdered down to the last five or so thousand humans, half of them slaves to a crippled god, with the one last sanctuary of humanity surrounded by literal miles of shoggoth that were apparently too lazy to actually go inside and eat the entirely undefended encampment. I can only assume the constant rebellions popping up to be immediately eaten by the shoggoths were some kind of sacrifice scheme the gibbering remains of mankind enacted to pacify the beasts, and the bright future is an eternity of tossing one out of every ten or so people into the world beasts that have became their new existence.This seems like an amazing setting for a graphic novel.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 22, 2017, 09:55:59 am
As for Lovecraft, I think it's one of those cases were when we look back on it, it seems trope-ish, but that's because he was thoroughly copied by others.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 05, 2017, 10:28:08 am
Interesting fact!
The modern definition of Eldritch was created by Lovecraft.
The original source of the word kind of means "related to elves" or something along those lines.
There are good arguments about whether it came from something like "ælf-rice" which would effectively mean "elvish"; or if it came more from "æl-rice" which would be "otherworldly" or "uncanny."
http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/4726/1/EldritchEtymology.pdf
Post by: Fewah on June 05, 2017, 01:51:58 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 06, 2017, 01:25:04 pm
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1677505065/shadows-behind-the-throne
...My only real thought is that, as much as we might gripe about seeing the map and UI only, those are very real, very important things. As evidenced by Shadows Behind the Throne, where the map is crowded and unwieldy, and the UI is so bad I don't want to touch it with a 10ft pole.
Post by: nenjin on June 06, 2017, 01:51:39 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 06, 2017, 03:11:09 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on June 07, 2017, 07:59:25 am
So, Shadows Behind the Throne released on Kickstarter.Sir are you familiar with dwarf fortress?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1677505065/shadows-behind-the-throne
...My only real thought is that, as much as we might gripe about seeing the map and UI only, those are very real, very important things. As evidenced by Shadows Behind the Throne, where the map is crowded and unwieldy, and the UI is so bad I don't want to touch it with a 10ft pole.
Post by: Cruxador on June 07, 2017, 04:02:09 pm
To say "it works in Dwarf Fortress so it'll work elsewhere" isn't really a valid statement. DF is exceptional in a lot of ways. And DF's UI isn't even that bad. It's densely packed, true, but the core elements all are arranged in a straightforward and broadly homogeneous way.So, Shadows Behind the Throne released on Kickstarter.Sir are you familiar with dwarf fortress?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1677505065/shadows-behind-the-throne
...My only real thought is that, as much as we might gripe about seeing the map and UI only, those are very real, very important things. As evidenced by Shadows Behind the Throne, where the map is crowded and unwieldy, and the UI is so bad I don't want to touch it with a 10ft pole.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 08, 2017, 09:15:55 am
I still cant believe that after 3 years we have no gameplay video, or multi turn gameplay video.
because it was always a scam
Post by: Retropunch on June 08, 2017, 12:35:21 pm
To say "it works in Dwarf Fortress so it'll work elsewhere" isn't really a valid statement. DF is exceptional in a lot of ways. And DF's UI isn't even that bad. It's densely packed, true, but the core elements all are arranged in a straightforward and broadly homogeneous way.So, Shadows Behind the Throne released on Kickstarter.Sir are you familiar with dwarf fortress?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1677505065/shadows-behind-the-throne
...My only real thought is that, as much as we might gripe about seeing the map and UI only, those are very real, very important things. As evidenced by Shadows Behind the Throne, where the map is crowded and unwieldy, and the UI is so bad I don't want to touch it with a 10ft pole.
DF interface is awful (lots of things that SHOULD work similarly do not work similarly) and clunky, but the game itself is so great that it makes up for it. It also has tons to display, so it's difficult to find a much better way of displaying it.
It really depends on the game on how important the interface is. DF works because you don't often need to do things quickly, RTS games require quickly accessible UIs and TBS/tactical games require you to be able to quickly access lots of different information.
That said, I can't really back anything just based on a bit of a graphical overhaul - that doesn't really do anything for me.
Post by: Fewah on September 12, 2017, 04:56:51 pm
Holy shit is this game a disaster.
Post by: nenjin on September 12, 2017, 06:07:22 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 12, 2017, 06:53:46 pm
Post by: nenjin on September 12, 2017, 06:59:06 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 12, 2017, 10:57:09 pm
https://bobbytwohands.itch.io/shadows-behind-the-throne/devlog/7795/empirical-data
so not much is happening but people are still posting on the internal forums
Post by: Rumble on October 15, 2017, 01:39:40 pm
http://steamcommunity.com/games/637050/announcements/
Post by: nenjin on October 15, 2017, 03:48:12 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 15, 2017, 03:55:07 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on October 15, 2017, 04:23:35 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 15, 2017, 04:25:55 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on November 21, 2017, 04:41:34 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 21, 2017, 04:45:55 pm
So got a backer update the other day with the following video in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrtei2lASkM&feature=youtu.be
It's a decent chunk of actual gameplay footage. Game looks pretty functional so far. Complex, which could be good or bad, but functional. And the art all looks quite good.
I'm impressed, I didn't expect to see something so polished looking, especially after it just sort of went away for so long.
Post by: Gornova on November 21, 2017, 05:06:15 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2017, 05:07:54 pm
Post by: Xantalos on November 21, 2017, 05:59:58 pm
Good to see he hasn't given up. It always did smell more to me like someone got in over his head rather than some kind of really poorly executed scam.Something along those lines, yeah. Those dang stretch goals are what did it, I reckon. But dead horses etc.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 06:39:15 pm
The old videos were absolutely fake, as people uncovered on the forums since this thread was locked:
Quote from: toonguy40
Oh god no.
After seeing this, I can never unsee it, and so I'm going to make this dramatic post about it because I don't think anyone else has mentioned it (if anyone has, I just don't remember and will feel like a massive dork for blowing this already-known information out of proportion). Get ready fellas:
The Scenario Selection video was faked.
Big shock, I know, most of us have already assumed as much. Fenicks said the videos were probably made with scripts, yeah? But for me at least, I still had a sliver of faith that Josh had a working-ish beta two years ago that has just been mired in too many A.I problems to be very playable. So maybe a few others here still hold that faith, who knows, could just be me being gullible. So what changed me just now into writing for a couple minutes?
If you wanna figure it out yourself, watch the Scenario Selection video and make sure you're looking at the whole screen while Josh selects his choices. If you just want me to get to my point:
At the left of the screen is a log of sorts that shows what choices you made.
Problem is, they're not the same choices Josh made. Only the first one about the elves coincides, otherwise the rest are different. They don't even seem to follow a pattern. I know we've had our Danel/Dunel controversy in the past, but this seems like a whole different level of inconsistency than can be explained away with just being a typo, right?
also, josh is apparently in antifa. (ok not really, but it's too long and not worth explaining.)
Post by: Egan_BW on November 21, 2017, 06:52:04 pm
Well, I'm not going to rehash whether or not this is still a scam
>proceeds to do that and only that
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 21, 2017, 06:52:29 pm
Quote
also, josh is apparently in antifa. (ok not really, but it's too long and not worth explaining.)Not saying that it is or it isn't a scam, but how is this relevant about any of this.
also... before decrying this video as fake we should get an analysis of this video, not of some past video, I'm thinking...
Not that I have any faith in this project, mind you, but I found your argument a bit weak, because it did not address current news, and it proceeded to go into politics...
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2017, 06:59:22 pm
If it's not worth explaining, it's not worth mentioning. And that's even before you factor in the "not really" bit.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2017, 07:04:47 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 21, 2017, 07:29:32 pm
It looks pretty well polished to me. Nice art assets, various views of the map.
Also complex...lots and lots of numbers everywhere. Which I'm not opposed to in this sort of game, mind you, though it did make it a bit hard to follow along with what he was talking about sometimes.
I do like the mechanics that he showed off, though. The various agents and the actions they can do looked interesting and very much in line with the sort of thing that we'd been promised way back when.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 07:36:38 pm
...particularly when you bring it up, but then immediately say it's both not accurate but too complex to actually explain.
If it's not worth explaining, it's not worth mentioning. And that's even before you factor in the "not really" bit.
Basically someone found the below picture of Josh on facebook:
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/c90.0.540.540/26117_576303505998_5478016_n.jpg?oh=6c17aac063830569b362e1f505ed597f&oe=5AAD3EBC
Which led to this exchange
Quote from: SangerZonvolt
Quote from: toonguy40Now, from this alone one could argue Josh is just a supporter of the Green Party, despite the fact he's pointing directly at what I believe is a variation of the Soviet flag. That is, of course, until you see that the only groups he's a member of (or at least show he's a member of) are the Boston Industrial Workers of the World and the Boston Radicals, the latter of which has the following for their group description:
"A group that will be a place for all of the various communist, anarchist, and socialist groups in Boston to read and post events going on in the anti-capitalist communities of the Boston area."
Well, sounds like fucking Antifa then, which would have been a huge warning for me a few years back when I backed this. Because they are basically all the same:
Think they can save the world, make grand plans, but have no realistic plan at all. Then they fabricate things and images that fit their worldview and do anything to stay under the radar as soon as they have to take responsibility for what they did. Honestly, imagining Josh as a typical member of the Antifa makes too much sense.
Though there arenīt enough masked teens with flares in their hands for that to be a picture of someone supporting Antifa. (Of course I know that the Antifa is called different in Boston, but the describtion they gave themself makes me believe they are basically the same, if you add "anti-right wing", which is probably jsut expected at that point and didnīt need to be said.)
saying "josh is in antifa" is a joke about a dumb argument
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2017, 07:42:19 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 21, 2017, 07:45:21 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 07:45:27 pm
Ok, so how about we divert this into a conversation about the video itself.
It looks pretty well polished to me. Nice art assets, various views of the map.
Also complex...lots and lots of numbers everywhere. Which I'm not opposed to in this sort of game, mind you, though it did make it a bit hard to follow along with what he was talking about sometimes.
I do like the mechanics that he showed off, though. The various agents and the actions they can do looked interesting and very much in line with the sort of thing that we'd been promised way back when.
It has many of the same curious elements, like turns that process instantly. Like at 4:00 where he clicks forward two turns with two clicks and seemingly 0 processing time.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 07:48:50 pm
...so it definitely wasn't worth mentioning.
Oh, I don't know. To the extent people are interested in knowing more about the alleged "developer" it's at least marginally interesting. It was one of the few pieces of personal information I've ever seen about him.
And actually, what I find more interesting about that picture is that he seems to be in Britain, not the US.
Post by: Darkmere on November 21, 2017, 08:39:45 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 21, 2017, 08:44:04 pm
Thisthreadgame keeps on giving.
Fix't.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 21, 2017, 08:44:28 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 21, 2017, 09:59:24 pm
It has many of the same curious elements, like turns that process instantly. Like at 4:00 where he clicks forward two turns with two clicks and seemingly 0 processing time.
Looking at the video, I'm noticing that it's taking 10+ turns for his agents to actually accomplish missions and the like in the game. My guess is that turns are going very quickly because the AI is similarly waiting for its own stuff to resolve. It doesn't look like Civ V where each turn every civilization has units to move around, cities to manage, etc, etc. The bookkeeping for all of the nodes should be trivial too, unless he's massively over-complicated matters or is running some very weird calculations.
Of course they could also be processing quickly because nothing is going on underneath the hood, but we'll see eventually.
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2017, 10:15:43 pm
Just a month after mating, a female octopus can lay as many as 100,000 eggs.
I must say, I had been thinking I should wait and see if the dev eventually turned this game out, or at least not care about it, but after learning this, I'm ready to join the online witch hunt.
Post by: AlStar on November 21, 2017, 10:50:51 pm
As a bonus, the graphics/art assets look really polished.
Now, that said - I'm glad I'm not a backer, because this game has been a total shitshow for - what is it? Years now?
However, when/if it ever emerges onto Steam, I will be purchasing it.
Post by: nenjin on November 21, 2017, 10:52:17 pm
Decidedly fewer people shouting FRAUD at that game though.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 21, 2017, 11:09:16 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 22, 2017, 12:09:14 am
Post by: Farce on November 22, 2017, 01:30:20 am
Shit looks cool and I continue to desire this.
Post by: Ghazkull on November 22, 2017, 02:50:56 am
I mean there is so much random extra stuff in there...extra diplomacy with ancients, those random wilderness creatures (vormurri and the other ones which are shown briefly) and i think he vastly expanded the list of agents too.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 22, 2017, 04:14:21 am
Really this video just has soooo many moments of numbers adjusting, mouse touching a pop-up for 0.2 sec and there being something.
See you for the next video in 6 months.
Post by: Scoops Novel on November 22, 2017, 05:59:36 am
I'm with Farce, Dev drama goes somewhere else. Come on, there's easily a juicy title to be made.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 22, 2017, 09:04:45 am
Really this video just has soooo many moments of numbers adjusting, mouse touching a pop-up for 0.2 sec and there being something.
This is my problem too. It looks like this is the sixth video in a series, after going though expanding all the mechanics he's ready to actually show some gameplay. But it's not, it's the first one. Like putting aside if this is fraud or not, the video seems kinda crap because it's just throwing a bunch of contextless gibberish out. Too fast, too lacking in explanations of what mechanics do. Maybe there's background context somewhere, but I wasn't really able to find it for most of this video. Like he mentions a lot about how he wants madness and how of course madness is good but never describes wtf madness is?
I guess it'd be somewhat understandable if this was actually a real working game, he'd want to show as much of it as possible as fast as possible to get people to stop thinking he's a fraud. But yeah, for now, I'm going to have to hold any judgement about the game because I still have no idea how it works (other then vaguely sending agents to do "things" at "places")
Post by: birdy51 on November 22, 2017, 09:24:17 am
Post by: Hanzoku on November 22, 2017, 09:39:44 am
I'm with your original locking reason, let's talk about this if something is ever actually released.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 22, 2017, 09:55:51 am
Plenty of material in the video...
Post by: Mephansteras on November 22, 2017, 10:02:24 am
Quote
Going forward I will be posting a video every week until release, please keep your eyes on the YouTube channel for updates as I move forward. I understand the healthy skepticism you may feel towards that statement and respect it.
I apologize for the silence - I haven't dealt with the defects both in development and in design in a respectful or professional manner. I've essentially put four years of my life into this game and the setbacks that recur have felt crippling at times and I turn inward as a coping method.
The game is in a good state - it's complex, polished, and rich with content. I'll be working hard to get it out to you as soon as possible.
Design wise obviously a lot of things have changed. The major changes have been gating challenges behind Local Assets and with Profile being fluid. I'll write up a full description of the mechanics and the implications they create/solve in the next update.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 22, 2017, 10:36:08 am
I mean if that is the standart you can close all threads for all early access games "Can't download anything, lets not talk about it".
Plenty of material in the video...
Most early access games aren't composed of equal portions of skub, drama and accusations of scamming/incompetence/breakdowns. Most I'm fine to live and let live, but this one seems to regularly turn into internet slap fights.
Post by: Jopax on November 22, 2017, 10:42:57 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2017, 11:25:47 am
Considering nothing really happens in a single turn, and that optimization is the sort of thing you can throw yourself into if you're in denial about not having a proper plan, and that he's probably showing it on a pretty nice computer, if the turns didn't process very quickly that would be easy more of a red flag than that they do.Ok, so how about we divert this into a conversation about the video itself.
It looks pretty well polished to me. Nice art assets, various views of the map.
Also complex...lots and lots of numbers everywhere. Which I'm not opposed to in this sort of game, mind you, though it did make it a bit hard to follow along with what he was talking about sometimes.
I do like the mechanics that he showed off, though. The various agents and the actions they can do looked interesting and very much in line with the sort of thing that we'd been promised way back when.
It has many of the same curious elements, like turns that process instantly. Like at 4:00 where he clicks forward two turns with two clicks and seemingly 0 processing time.
I thought the video showed great promise - it looks like exactly the kind of thing that I would love to play.This is my perspective as well.
As a bonus, the graphics/art assets look really polished.
Now, that said - I'm glad I'm not a backer, because this game has been a total shitshow for - what is it? Years now?
However, when/if it ever emerges onto Steam, I will be purchasing it.
I dunno, it's still firmly within in the timeline of most Kickstarter games. Shit, I backed Rogue-U a couple years before this and it still ain't out yet either.The articles of concern are less to do with the time scale by itself and more to do with communication issues. Saying there will be a demo or a video at a certain time and then failing to deliver are way more damaging than saying nothing.
Decidedly fewer people shouting FRAUD at that game though.
It'll be interesting to see if he can actually stick to a plan and do weekly updates for even one week.
The game definitely needs a tutorial built in that explains the mechanics better than he does. He mentioned something about gating mechanics, but I think so far he's using that too conservatively, and perhaps picking the wrong mechanics to gate. Hell, there's entire UI elements that ought to be gated.Really this video just has soooo many moments of numbers adjusting, mouse touching a pop-up for 0.2 sec and there being something.
This is my problem too. It looks like this is the sixth video in a series, after going though expanding all the mechanics he's ready to actually show some gameplay. But it's not, it's the first one. Like putting aside if this is fraud or not, the video seems kinda crap because it's just throwing a bunch of contextless gibberish out. Too fast, too lacking in explanations of what mechanics do. Maybe there's background context somewhere, but I wasn't really able to find it for most of this video. Like he mentions a lot about how he wants madness and how of course madness is good but never describes wtf madness is?
I guess it'd be somewhat understandable if this was actually a real working game, he'd want to show as much of it as possible as fast as possible to get people to stop thinking he's a fraud. But yeah, for now, I'm going to have to hold any judgement about the game because I still have no idea how it works (other then vaguely sending agents to do "things" at "places")
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 22, 2017, 11:41:36 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2017, 12:27:26 pm
Something to play > Ease of playDepends on your life. I'm in the stage where convenience matters a lot as there's only so much time available. Although even among teenagers, retired folks, and similarly idle people, I think it's a pretty substantial majority that would like more guidance than the video showed. The "video every week until release" line implies that release is supposed to be soon, but I don't really think the game is close to ready yet. It's ready for a demo or early access, sure, but for full release good core gameplay isn't often as impactful as good presentation. Though I'm not saying we've seen enough to be sure of good core gameplay yet, what we've seen so far does at least imply a fun sandbox, and I'd like to see it reach its potential and be fun.
Post by: neotemplar on November 22, 2017, 12:28:42 pm
Regardless, at this point the drama has reached the level of entertainment in its own right. I vote we wait until the next scheduled (lol) update. If he doesnt produce we can lock it till he puts out news again.
Post by: Retropunch on November 22, 2017, 12:29:52 pm
I don't ever agree with locking threads (banning/warning users is different) but it's sort of ok if there isn't anything new to discuss and it's just going round in circles. Now that there is new stuff to talk about (and we have been promised there will be more) then it's sensible to keep it open.
Of course people are going to be sceptical/talk about how it's a scam - it's been a major part of the development cycle - however if there's new stuff, then people will chat about that more and more until it's not an issue.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 22, 2017, 12:39:36 pm
And, in fact, I think I'll post on the kickstarter about some suggestions for what he does next. Maybe a nice basic overview video? This last one showing gameplay was good from a 'Look! I am making a game! See!' perspective, but terrible at actually giving us information about what we were seeing.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 22, 2017, 01:15:57 pm
Post by: birdy51 on November 22, 2017, 01:17:07 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2017, 01:17:22 pm
Yeah, I'm very curious to see what he comes up with for the next video.Honestly, I think that flaw in the video stems from a flaw in the individual. He doesn't seem super well suited to explaining in general.
And, in fact, I think I'll post on the kickstarter about some suggestions for what he does next. Maybe a nice basic overview video? This last one showing gameplay was good from a 'Look! I am making a game! See!' perspective, but terrible at actually giving us information about what we were seeing.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 22, 2017, 01:20:56 pm
Post by: lordcooper on November 22, 2017, 02:57:29 pm
1. The sheer quantity of numbers on display. Like, it's a ludicrous amount of exposed stats and numbers. YMMV on whether that's a good thing in a game, but I struggle to believe someone just throwing together a mockup would make one with such information density. It'd be sparse and pretty, less effort, right?
2. He frequently gets distracted by new menus or popups, cutting himself off mid-sentence to explain them. I wouldn't expect this from someone showing off a fake, they'd have a tight script written beforehand.
3. Birds. Yes, birds. It's a completely unnecessary graphical feature that nobody would have noted the absence of. A total waste of time for a scammer, but something a stressed out coder might well spend an hour or two working on to unwind.
My main concern now isn't that the game will never release (although I have no expectation of another video coming next week), it's that he's going to suddenly dump it into full release and it'll be impenetrable. Multiple reworks and years of tweaking by one person, with little/no feedback from anyone else isn't really a recipe for ease of use, or even legibility when so information dense. Here's to hoping it goes the early access / open beta route and he's receptive to feedback.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 22, 2017, 03:10:46 pm
Post by: Serenseven on November 22, 2017, 04:20:52 pm
3. Birds. Yes, birds. It's a completely unnecessary graphical feature that nobody would have noted the absence of. A total waste of time for a scammer, but something a stressed out coder might well spend an hour or two working on to unwind.
For what little it's worth, those birds have been there since before the Kickstarter. If you watch the Dev Log 2 video (on the YouTube channel), at around 19:15 Josh mentions the birds. Apparently at one point they could be upgraded to wraiths or wyverns.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 23, 2017, 03:43:10 am
He wants to add several visual effects that show "ok, here is/was war here" or "magic here", that can give you a more global overview, while the numbers explain it all. The sort by X is great for this, if it works.
Anyone wants to do a bet for when the next video comes out? I can offer a Eador: Masters of the Broken World GoG Key + Mirror's Edge Origin Key as grand prize.
Post by: lordcooper on November 23, 2017, 07:07:35 am
Post by: birdy51 on November 23, 2017, 09:39:07 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 23, 2017, 09:51:49 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 23, 2017, 11:14:36 am
I don't actually expect it, but Josh sounded like he's taking this a bit more realistically from the last update, so maybe that translates into doing what he said. Maybe. Kinda.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 23, 2017, 04:31:37 pm
i want to be wrong about all of this but i just don't believe it
Post by: Xantalos on November 23, 2017, 04:50:28 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 23, 2017, 05:25:07 pm
Regardless of when it comes out, Im content in the knowledge that its still being worked on. Even if it ends up taking another 5 years or something, itll still be a game I can buy, and thats enough for me.
i sure hope so. after all, a company is at steak!!
Post by: Cruxador on November 24, 2017, 02:06:54 am
A company is nothing without a product anyway.Regardless of when it comes out, Im content in the knowledge that its still being worked on. Even if it ends up taking another 5 years or something, itll still be a game I can buy, and thats enough for me.
i sure hope so. after all, a company is at steak!!
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 24, 2017, 03:47:13 am
Post by: Cthulhu on November 24, 2017, 01:12:31 pm
I haven't watched it yet. I'm not afraid Josh will hurt me again. I'm just incapable of feeling anything about this game anymore. I can barely remember why I was excited by it. The original thread and the subsequent demo and video debacle all happened in (not exaggerating) the worst couple months of my life. The lowest point. All my memories of the game are soaked in nauseous dread, just by proximity.
Also:
SBT guy mentions he wants to contact Josh.
SBT guy goes on "hiatus"
Josh comes back with huge video and apparent progress.
Josh killed SBT guy and ate his brain.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 24, 2017, 01:20:47 pm
Post by: birdy51 on November 24, 2017, 02:07:03 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on November 24, 2017, 07:52:05 pm
Looking at the Video, jesus fucking christ that looks like bloody feature creep caused the death (almost death?) of this game.
I mean there is so much random extra stuff in there...extra diplomacy with ancients, those random wilderness creatures (vormurri and the other ones which are shown briefly) and i think he vastly expanded the list of agents too.
There are actually fewer agents I think. Unless you can scroll. Let's see. I don't see the Biomancer, the Judge, or the Juggernaut. The speaker, the mountebank, and the betrayer I don't recognize. So it looks like it's the same number, assuming you can't scroll the list.
Post by: Farce on November 25, 2017, 04:33:57 am
Ah. I get it. We just need to sacrifice enough folks to Josh then. It's the only way that he'll get the critical mass of brains necessary to get the job done!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yui4zkZQwCA
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 25, 2017, 04:41:23 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 25, 2017, 09:49:06 am
Post by: Cthulhu on November 25, 2017, 11:33:32 am
I actually... thought it looked kind of real? I doubt it will be good when/if he releases whatever he's made, just because it's a single coder who's buried himself in a tomb and piss-jugged it for three years, there's been no opportunity for anyone other than the insane guy to look at it.
But it looks like there's something there. The only thing I saw that was alarming, Sanger pointed out, is that one of the regions is missing from the region list. Unless they're manually added to it (which is spaghetti enough I can see it being true for a project like this) it's a pretty glaring problem.
I don't think instantaneous turns are that crazy. The sheer mind-numbing quantities of numbers and stats on the screen makes me think he's gone for spreadsheets to deal with the AI problem, just making nations act based on a shitload of stats rather than giving them actual options. Which ironically is probably more predictable and deterministic than his AI card whatever shit. That kind of thing I don't think would require long turns, especially when most actions are timed. If AI characters behave anything like the player, 90% of them will be idling on any given turn resolution.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 26, 2017, 04:12:47 pm
I'm going for the big balls play. The next video will come out before December 2.
Oh come on, Cthulhu. I thought I'd have a monopoly over next week with my guess of Nov 29.
Post by: Jopax on November 26, 2017, 04:31:12 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 26, 2017, 05:34:19 pm
Post by: nenjin on November 26, 2017, 05:36:43 pm
I'm gonna go a different route and say the thread will get locked again before the next video comes out :V
I feel like this is the smart money.
Post by: Cruxador on November 26, 2017, 05:39:39 pm
I mean, he's got to drop a video tomorrow to be on schedule and if that doesn't happen, locking (maybe with a day or two margin for error) would be the reasonable thing to do. I might bet against it but I'd need some very favorable odds.I'm gonna go a different route and say the thread will get locked again before the next video comes out :V
I feel like this is the smart money.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 26, 2017, 07:17:51 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 26, 2017, 08:21:12 pm
I mean, he's got to drop a video tomorrow to be on schedule and if that doesn't happen, locking (maybe with a day or two margin for error) would be the reasonable thing to do. I might bet against it but I'd need some very favorable odds.I'm gonna go a different route and say the thread will get locked again before the next video comes out :V
I feel like this is the smart money.
Why within a day or two? He was regularly weeks late with his old videos.
Remember, we've been down this exact road, folks.
Post by: Cruxador on November 26, 2017, 09:13:40 pm
Yeah but if he's late he's not on schedule. That's not a contestable point, that's a definitional component of "on schedule".I mean, he's got to drop a video tomorrow to be on schedule and if that doesn't happen, locking (maybe with a day or two margin for error) would be the reasonable thing to do. I might bet against it but I'd need some very favorable odds.I'm gonna go a different route and say the thread will get locked again before the next video comes out :V
I feel like this is the smart money.
Why within a day or two? He was regularly weeks late with his old videos.
Remember, we've been down this exact road, folks.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 27, 2017, 01:18:59 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 27, 2017, 01:28:02 am
Post by: birdy51 on November 27, 2017, 02:16:51 am
Post by: Mephansteras on November 27, 2017, 10:09:14 am
Post by: nenjin on November 27, 2017, 11:36:35 am
Post by: Sindain on November 27, 2017, 11:46:55 am
Post by: Serenseven on November 27, 2017, 12:04:39 pm
Special effects and lighting have improved, though.
Post by: lordcooper on November 27, 2017, 02:24:10 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 27, 2017, 03:04:15 pm
Stating that if someone doesn't meet their self set schedule then they aren't on schedule is setting a harsh standard now? ::)
When the gentleman's track record is as bad as it is, kind of. Like... it seems to be like people are saying OKAY, NOW IF THIS FAILS, THEN IT WILL ACTUALLY BE A SCAM GRUMBLE GRUMBLE GRUMBLE, I mean like if he was a little behind on his released four years ago, ya whatever, but the damage is already done and people are still treating it like a a normal development process.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 27, 2017, 03:41:34 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 27, 2017, 04:25:08 pm
I'll be as harsh as I fucking want, he still owes me a game.
Dude, think about how much time you've already wasted on this though, just cut your losses. Again, if the game comes out, GREAT, but why fully reignite your interest in this at the first meagre signs of life. There is absolutely no guarantee there will be anything, yet--let's at least wait and see if he's serious instead of IMMEDIATELY jumping back on to this undeserved hype train.
Post by: Cruxador on November 27, 2017, 09:11:45 pm
I'll be as harsh as I fucking want, he still owes me a game.That's not really how kickstarter works.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 27, 2017, 09:25:49 pm
Post by: ndkid on November 27, 2017, 10:02:12 pm
It's not really healthy to treat a kickstarter as a preorder. The whole idea behind it is that you're taking on the role of a publisher, which can be a risky position.Uh-oh, we're back in "argue over the legal and moral obligations of KS, and the resulting reasonableness of backers" land? I suppose it was only a matter of time.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 27, 2017, 10:56:53 pm
Regardless of what a kickstarter is, I backed it based on what Josh described as the state of the game. It's now clear that he lied. If he had told the truth about the game's state I wouldn't have given him any money.
Ironically, the game might've been out by now if the kickstarter had failed. Unless everyuthing he's told us up until now has been a lie (not completely unrealistic) the most crippling damage was all done in the name of stretch goals.
It seems like he's learned his lessons though. The vast reams of numbers and stats leads me to believe he's going for a more systems-based than agent-based AI, if that makes sense. Rather than AI having choices and making predictions, it just runs the numbers and comes up with a scripted reaction (e.g. orc threat is 50, cylaria is 75, but aventura hates orcs so multiply orc threat by 2, = fight orcs, buy time on cylaria)
Which ironically is probably more predictable and "deterministic" than the AI route.
Post by: dennislp3 on November 28, 2017, 12:39:18 am
Developers should fulfill the base game THEN deliver on stretch goals. Instead they all think they can keep their original deadlines and add 10 new large systems to the game.
Post by: birdy51 on November 28, 2017, 08:54:13 am
Kickstarter is schrodinger's preorder. The definition changes as soon as you look at it. Kickstarter is very careful to never refer to it as anything that would imply a definition.
Regardless of what a kickstarter is, I backed it based on what Josh described as the state of the game. It's now clear that he lied. If he had told the truth about the game's state I wouldn't have given him any money.
Ironically, the game might've been out by now if the kickstarter had failed. Unless everyuthing he's told us up until now has been a lie (not completely unrealistic) the most crippling damage was all done in the name of stretch goals.
It seems like he's learned his lessons though. The vast reams of numbers and stats leads me to believe he's going for a more systems-based than agent-based AI, if that makes sense. Rather than AI having choices and making predictions, it just runs the numbers and comes up with a scripted reaction (e.g. orc threat is 50, cylaria is 75, but aventura hates orcs so multiply orc threat by 2, = fight orcs, buy time on cylaria)
Which ironically is probably more predictable and "deterministic" than the AI route.
Hrmm. If I do understand that correctly, if you wanted to add a little bit of flux to their decision making, you could always add a variable modifier that changes every 10 turns or so.
Post by: Damiac on November 28, 2017, 09:27:04 am
Then after much drama and broken schedules, the 'Partner' admitted there never was a game, and that Josh had tricked him... somehow... and all he could do was 'commiserate' with the backers.
Then it turned out Josh had started another KS in the meantime, for another company, while being totally incommunicado.
But now... everyone is just going to forget all that and pretend maybe despite all the clear signs, maybe it's not a scam? I mean... it's entertaining, to a point, but after a while it's frustrating to see this keep working.
If there's going to be a thread on this kickstarter (not game, there is no game 'yet') then someone needs to come through now and then and post a PSA about how nobody should pledge any money to this project, at least not without knowing the history of what they're getting into. So that's what I'm doing.
I'm not interested in debating this or derailing the thread further, so don't bother to respond to this post, ignore it if you like.
Post by: lordcooper on November 28, 2017, 10:04:16 am
Post by: Kopistko on November 28, 2017, 10:06:06 am
Btw, there are no derailing the thread, it's not like there much going on or a lot of thing to discuss after 2 years.
P.S. Howbout lock thread again, if there are no video before end of the week?
UPD.
Also, are there any info on Josh? There are absolutely nothing on him, no Linkedin, no old twitter account, no FB.
Post by: Jopax on November 28, 2017, 10:47:48 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 28, 2017, 10:51:35 am
So what do I win if my bet turns out to be on the money?(as it's looking increasingly likely) Copy of the game?
Nothing but the cold satisfaction of getting a diminished final product after years of disappointment and anger.
Post by: Xgamer4 on November 28, 2017, 11:14:28 am
Notably: The partner bailed because Josh refused to communicate with anyone. While bailing, he admitted that he'd never seen a working game - not that it never existed. There is a difference in the implications, even if for us it means the same thing.
The other Kickstarter was started using a business name previously tied to Josh, but was otherwise never legally incorporated by anyone. When pressed, the actual creator - the guy who actually started the campaign - said Josh wasn't involved with the current Kickstarter in any way. And that's about where the evidence ends. It's also worth noting that the last update on that Kickstarter had an update two weeks ago, explaining that they're just about finished with manufacturing proofs and about ready to go into full production.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 28, 2017, 11:32:42 am
Notably: The partner bailed because Josh refused to communicate with anyone. While bailing, he admitted that he'd never seen a working game - not that it never existed. There is a difference in the implications, even if for us it means the same thing.
one thing i always found curious about this particular aspect
why does anyone trust anything said by Joseph Vivolo? (Fenix or whatever his name was) He wasn't just "the partner" - he was the one who set up the company. He had equal control over all of the assets and money. There were supposedly operating out of the same city.
Of course when he bailed he'd say it was all Josh's fault and that he was just as misled as the rest of us. But why would you believe that?
Post by: Jopax on November 28, 2017, 11:38:36 am
Post by: AlStar on November 28, 2017, 12:50:29 pm
I've still got my fingers crossed that we get to see video #2 sometime this week.
Post by: E. Albright on November 28, 2017, 01:27:12 pm
Also, are there any info on Josh? There are absolutely nothing on him, no Linkedin, no old twitter account, no FB.
Given the pitchfork-wielding mobs running around seeking his blood, I find the distinct lack of personal social media presence to be 100% unsurprising.
Post by: Zangi on November 28, 2017, 02:14:40 pm
Why set these harsh standards when the ball's already been dropped? What is it about this game that brings out incredible pettiness??? Just let it die. If something does come out, great, but it has literally been yanking people's chains for nearly four years now. "Shadows Behind The Throne" exists as an alternative even.I forgot this existed since I last played, looks like it is still being updated.
Post by: ndkid on November 28, 2017, 03:56:28 pm
I think it's fair to say, based on timeline, that his poor social media presence predated the pitchforks, but I haven't done a rigorous analysis. (I bet that one tinfoil-hat-wearing guy has, though.)Also, are there any info on Josh? There are absolutely nothing on him, no Linkedin, no old twitter account, no FB.
Given the pitchfork-wielding mobs running around seeking his blood, I find the distinct lack of personal social media presence to be 100% unsurprising.
Post by: Toady One on November 28, 2017, 04:28:07 pm
also: person that said the thread would be locked won? though it is unlocked now.
Post by: nenjin on November 28, 2017, 04:55:44 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on November 28, 2017, 06:28:20 pm
also: person that said the thread would be locked won? though it is unlocked now.
It was locked, but when something relevant came up later, it was unlocked.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 28, 2017, 08:25:26 pm
Always bet on the Toad.I always bet on someone in a group taking shit too far. So far I've generally won that bet. I wonder if there is a term for the phenomenon.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 28, 2017, 08:48:40 pm
Post by: Toady One on November 29, 2017, 12:05:20 am
also: person that said the thread would be locked won? though it is unlocked now.
It was locked, but when something relevant came up later, it was unlocked.
Oh, I meant that I locked it for a spell just then, right before I posted that and deleted the posts. So somebody already won the bet, unless the other video showed up first. Unless the bet was over a permanent lock. You'll have to adjudicate that matter among yourselves.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 29, 2017, 12:41:05 am
Post by: Farce on November 29, 2017, 02:22:31 am
My stances haven't changed since I last gave them either. Pushing for a random map generator was probably what exploded the game, the total shitstorm that happened is probably why he's on silent so much, stretch goals are bad, I don't care and am still super hype for this, etc.
Somewhat relatedly, I wish the serial killer roguelike guy hadn't taken down his fakey mockup videos, they were cool to watch.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on November 29, 2017, 04:10:33 am
Notably: The partner bailed because Josh refused to communicate with anyone. While bailing, he admitted that he'd never seen a working game - not that it never existed. There is a difference in the implications, even if for us it means the same thing.
one thing i always found curious about this particular aspect
why does anyone trust anything said by Joseph Vivolo? (Fenix or whatever his name was) He wasn't just "the partner" - he was the one who set up the company. He had equal control over all of the assets and money. There were supposedly operating out of the same city.
Of course when he bailed he'd say it was all Josh's fault and that he was just as misled as the rest of us. But why would you believe that?
Mostly because we have his word and not Joshs. Josh didnīt bother locking into the forums for almost two years now (aniversary is at the 21st of december). Fen was active till 6 months ago (I think? He deactivated his "last lock in" on his profile so I cant say for sure). Of course we made it very clear that we thought he was at fault too (which earned me a ban over there, which was later lifted when he calmed down).
Just for clarity: I didnīt kickstart, I preordered on their homepage when that was still available. So you (the general public, not the guy I quoted in specific) can shove your "you arenīt entiteled to anything".
Post by: Damiac on November 30, 2017, 04:15:17 pm
You damn entitled gamer!
I'm being sarcastic... but this statement isn't as far off from what some industry people are saying...
Good to know the guy isn't asking for money anymore, I suppose no PSA was needed after all.
Post by: MorleyDev on November 30, 2017, 05:00:35 pm
What, do you think paying money to someone in exchange for the promise of a product entitles you to that product?
You damn entitled gamer!
I'm being sarcastic... but this statement isn't as far off from what some industry people are saying...
It really depends how you view Kickstarter. If it's an "advance pre-order", then yes. If you view it as putting money for something you want to happen but doesn't have good odds of happening without that money so that it has better odds of being completed, then yeah you do accept that the money may be lost. Same rule as with a Casino, don't bet money you can't afford to lose.
Now, which one Kickstarter is intended to be, well...that's a debate for the ages :) Personally I've always seen it as the latter, though I do think if a project like a game has to end before completion, then it'd be right to put out the assets and code for free so the community that still wants it can carry it on. But licenses and contracts have to be have that baked into them, not all artists/developers are comfortable with that idea...
Post by: Fewah on November 30, 2017, 05:05:30 pm
Post by: AlStar on November 30, 2017, 05:41:25 pm
Edit: And that he's taking his promises to his community seriously.
Post by: nenjin on November 30, 2017, 05:59:34 pm
If I were him, I would attempt to move heaven and earth to get a video out on time - even if most of that video is him cursing as the game repeatedly crashes or something - just to show that he's really working on it.
Edit: And that he's taking his promises to his community seriously.
One would think this, but honestly the time for that kind of showing was months ago. If he was willing to let important deadlines slip before with nary a word, I don't see why now would be different. He's mea culpa'd a couple times but it hasn't actually resulted in more rigor and discipline on his part.
Post by: MorleyDev on November 30, 2017, 06:32:10 pm
"I won't do one this week, I've mostly been refactoring and reworking systems so I can add this new feature"
"Oh I won't do one this week, I just got the new feature working and it's not quite as ready-for-show as I'd like. But first I need to work on this other part of the system so I can add those extra tweaks"
"Oh I won't do one this week, after two weeks I need a lot to show instead of just that one feature since everything else is minor tweaks."
"Oh I won't do one this week, I don't wait when did five months pass?"
There's a reason companies have dedicated PR people to manage that kind of thing: It's hard.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 30, 2017, 07:05:54 pm
It really depends how you view Kickstarter. If it's an "advance pre-order", then yes. If you view it as putting money for something you want to happen but doesn't have good odds of happening without that money so that it has better odds of being completed, then yeah you do accept that the money may be lost. Same rule as with a Casino, don't bet money you can't afford to lose.A complicating factor in this is that individual projects are almost always going to insist they're basically done and a sure thing and the devs know exactly what they're doing and so on. This doesn't leave a great deal of room to then turn around and say "Oops, your risky investment didn't pay off, good thing we're adults about this."
Now, which one Kickstarter is intended to be, well...that's a debate for the ages :) Personally I've always seen it as the latter, though I do think if a project like a game has to end before completion, then it'd be right to put out the assets and code for free so the community that still wants it can carry it on. But licenses and contracts have to be have that baked into them, not all artists/developers are comfortable with that idea...
I understand the impulse to not do them though.For standard development, yes. For his current situation and pledge to absolutely do a weekly video to absolutely prove he's not in Mexico with everyone's money, I would think he'd just bite the bullet and put up literally anything.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2017, 07:09:21 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on December 03, 2017, 02:44:04 am
Edit: nevermind, it is back up again. Still not a nice thing to wake up to.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on December 03, 2017, 05:19:51 am
It really depends how you view Kickstarter. If it's an "advance pre-order", then yes. If you view it as putting money for something you want to happen but doesn't have good odds of happening without that money so that it has better odds of being completed, then yeah you do accept that the money may be lost. Same rule as with a Casino, don't bet money you can't afford to lose.
Now, which one Kickstarter is intended to be, well...that's a debate for the ages :) Personally I've always seen it as the latter, though I do think if a project like a game has to end before completion, then it'd be right to put out the assets and code for free so the community that still wants it can carry it on. But licenses and contracts have to be have that baked into them, not all artists/developers are comfortable with that idea...
Repeating my previous statement, because reading is hard:
Some of us did not pledge on kickstarter, but actually BOUGHT the preorder option (from a button labeled PRORDER) from the TWS homepage. You can still see the button there, but it had been locked about 2 years ago because they were ready to get the game "close to release".
So I repeat:
I did not kickstart, I did preorder.
Post by: Cruxador on December 03, 2017, 07:02:35 am
Given that, it can probably be inferred that despite your proximity in the conversation, he's not actually talking about you.
It really depends how you view Kickstarter. If it's an "advance pre-order", then yes. If you view it as putting money for something you want to happen but doesn't have good odds of happening without that money so that it has better odds of being completed, then yeah you do accept that the money may be lost. Same rule as with a Casino, don't bet money you can't afford to lose.
Now, which one Kickstarter is intended to be, well...that's a debate for the ages :) Personally I've always seen it as the latter, though I do think if a project like a game has to end before completion, then it'd be right to put out the assets and code for free so the community that still wants it can carry it on. But licenses and contracts have to be have that baked into them, not all artists/developers are comfortable with that idea...
Repeating my previous statement, because reading is hard:
Some of us did not pledge on kickstarter, but actually BOUGHT the preorder option (from a button labeled PRORDER) from the TWS homepage. You can still see the button there, but it had been locked about 2 years ago because they were ready to get the game "close to release".
So I repeat:
I did not kickstart, I did preorder.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on December 03, 2017, 07:26:21 am
Given that, it can probably be inferred that despite your proximity in the conversation, he's not actually talking about you.
He answered someone who wrote directly after me on something I refered to. So given that he either did refer to me and misread me completely, or outright ignored my input, both of which make his statement... inacurate.
Well, not that it changes much. Guess I am just bitter about the whole thing by now.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 03, 2017, 07:45:20 am
Unless the preorder is explicitly marked as a "sponsor development to get the game", which does have an implicit (though really should be explicit) "if development fails you don't get he game" so does put it in the same kind of camp as Kickstarter.
I think in the UK at least you're legally entitled to cancel and get back your money, but not sure about the USA since that doesn't have as strong consumer protections.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 03, 2017, 10:14:35 am
Post by: lordcooper on December 03, 2017, 10:58:03 am
a button labeled PRORDER
Well there's your problem. You should have clicked the button labelled preorder instead :P
Post by: Jopax on December 03, 2017, 11:06:31 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on December 03, 2017, 12:06:55 pm
Post by: lordcooper on December 03, 2017, 12:34:42 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on December 03, 2017, 03:28:09 pm
Post by: SangerZonvolt on December 03, 2017, 04:47:42 pm
Sorry, I was mostly replying to the "which is what some people in the industry are saying". I've seen plenty of arguments that Kickstarter doesn't entitle you to the product, not many that preorders don't entitle you to at least a refund.
Unless the preorder is explicitly marked as a "sponsor development to get the game", which does have an implicit (though really should be explicit) "if development fails you don't get he game" so does put it in the same kind of camp as Kickstarter.
I think in the UK at least you're legally entitled to cancel and get back your money, but not sure about the USA since that doesn't have as strong consumer protections.
If I am not mistaken and they changed it, this is ruling on kickstarter:
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, theyve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe thats communicated to backers;
theyre able to demonstrate that theyve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
theyve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form. "
I think Josh pretty much violated the fourth point (honesty) as far as is humanly possible when he put out the fake hardcoded video and didnīt exactly honor the rest either as far as we can tell.
Post by: AlStar on December 03, 2017, 11:46:56 pm
He could've said that he'd be putting out a video every month. Hell, he could've just put this one out and not said anything at all about future videos.
Given the first video, I also don't understand why he didn't have (at least) several videos worth of content, just playing the game that he was currently running.
Post by: Lapoleon on December 04, 2017, 12:53:53 am
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2017, 01:32:53 am
According to Sean, one of the forum mods who is still in contact with Fenicks (aka, the former half of KDG), Josh had a death in the family. This might be true, or it might be more bullshit. Who knows?Honestly, if he had his shit together, it shouldn't matter. The videos should already be made and queued up several weeks in advance.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 04, 2017, 01:35:33 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 04, 2017, 08:09:58 am
The thing that I just can't understand is how he managed to mess this up. The only reason that he's late is because he's the one who gave us a timeline.
He could've said that he'd be putting out a video every month. Hell, he could've just put this one out and not said anything at all about future videos.
Given the first video, I also don't understand why he didn't have (at least) several videos worth of content, just playing the game that he was currently running.
Honestly, as someone who has seen clinical anxiety and depression at very close range, this doesn't surprise me at all. Breathtakingly simple tasks that should require no effort can become huge, nigh-impossible things entirely because of self-imposed significance and implication; they may be seeking to move forward, and they may have identified a path to do so, but it may feel entirely impossible to stay on the path they set - possibly just because doing so would mean succeeding, and they've convinced themself that is something they can't do; possibly because doing the simple task has been conflated with doing everything they'd need to do after that task; possibly any other number of wholly irrational reasons driven by fear, self-loathing, etc.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 04, 2017, 11:13:24 am
Post by: AlStar on December 04, 2017, 11:58:26 am
Now, whether or not the game will actually ever be released, or if it will remain in a 99%-complete state on the developer's computer forevermore as he tweaks it to perfection for the next decade... well... that remains to be seen.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 04, 2017, 12:04:50 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on December 05, 2017, 09:55:55 pm
I've never thought the game to be a scam, just a perfect storm of stress, pressure, mental anguish and death-by-poor-management combined with Kickstarter feature bloat.
I agree with this statement...
While bummed, I do always keep my expectations at kickstarter low. That being said he has not completely disappeared, perhaps because he is a good guy trying to do right, or perhaps because he is afraid of dire legal consequences. Obviously doing so through his own free will is prefered but either one will result in a game.
Post by: Farce on December 05, 2017, 10:27:17 pm
I've never thought the game to be a scam, just a perfect storm of stress, pressure, mental anguish and death-by-poor-management combined with Kickstarter feature bloat.This.
Post by: ventuswings on December 06, 2017, 12:22:51 am
The thing that I just can't understand is how he managed to mess this up. The only reason that he's late is because he's the one who gave us a timeline.
He could've said that he'd be putting out a video every month. Hell, he could've just put this one out and not said anything at all about future videos.
Given the first video, I also don't understand why he didn't have (at least) several videos worth of content, just playing the game that he was currently running.
That's exactly my impression as well, and the developer's tendency to constantly provide deadlines which were constantly missed (regarding update video etc.) was the only reason why I did not back the Kickstarter; it indicates poor management skills which is very oft cause of delays.
I never understood why some indie devs give out unnecessary deadlines in such a way. There's a case of Rain World, which promoted its new massive update way too soon, suggesting fall release. In reality, public beta was finally released on November 30 due to long Q&A process. Plenty of the game's community members expressed discontent for this delay, which would not have happened if the dev's earlier promotion of the update did not set expectations.
Another case is Darkest Dungeon. Developer promised multiple times that Korean translation would be available through their communications with unofficial translators and on twitch chat. They have failed to meet this statement, and after years of no official news and multiple DLC updates (which pushes translation effort further), some Korean gamers are viewing the game pretty negatively at the moment.
Compare these cases to Routine. This rogue-like horror game hasn't been released several years after the promised release date, but nobody really gives significant attention to it because the dev team is keeping absolute radio silence, rarely giving (almost yearly) updates just to state that the project haven't been completely abandoned.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 06, 2017, 12:37:04 am
Post by: nenjin on December 06, 2017, 12:38:24 am
I almost think a good strategy is to just let everyone think the project is dead, and only pop back into existence a couple months before you can release the thing.
And if nothing else get massive internet props for the play on the title.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 06, 2017, 01:11:31 am
That is not dead which can eternal lie.I almost think a good strategy is to just let everyone think the project is dead, and only pop back into existence a couple months before you can release the thing.
And if nothing else get massive internet props for the play on the title.
Post by: Fewah on December 06, 2017, 12:35:53 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 07, 2017, 11:29:49 am
Well I guess the weekly videos arent happening
this could have been post from 3 years ago
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 07, 2017, 12:18:03 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 07, 2017, 12:26:12 pm
Lock
I mean, I don't really see the point. I'm sure he'll post another video in a few months to stave off the kickstarter police/FTC/some state attorney general.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 07, 2017, 12:54:52 pm
LockLock
Post by: Jopax on December 07, 2017, 01:34:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 07, 2017, 05:27:25 pm
LOCK
Post by: Yoink on December 08, 2017, 02:06:37 am
Post by: Avaris on December 10, 2017, 06:31:18 pm
In any case, I think Josh will come back in a few weeks (or months) and post either a delirious update claiming that the game is about to be published in a week, or give us more of the old self-loathing tirades how he is sorry.
Yet, against all the odds, I would wager that the game is ready before summer 2018.
Post by: Fewah on December 28, 2017, 12:39:55 pm
1month later.
Post by: birdy51 on December 28, 2017, 02:53:18 pm
Post by: Jopax on December 28, 2017, 04:45:37 pm
LOCK
Post by: Scoops Novel on December 28, 2017, 05:04:55 pm
Just for the record, after a 5 minutes long session of online stalking with Google I was able to find some information that makes it more likely that there was a death in Josh's family. Certain close relatives in his family had been having some unknown health issues in the past. Might also explain some of the delays. :-\
In any case, I think Josh will come back in a few weeks (or months) and post either a delirious update claiming that the game is about to be published in a week, or give us more of the old self-loathing tirades how he is sorry.
Yet, against all the odds, I would wager that the game is ready before summer 2018.
Given this, let's have a little restraint.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 28, 2017, 05:10:26 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 28, 2017, 06:48:18 pm
The only content in this thread worthy of a lock is certain people repeatedly calling for a lock in obnoxious large red letters remenecint of the worst excesses of the magma of old.What about the people complaining about the people calling for a lock?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 29, 2017, 08:25:38 am
The only content in this thread worthy of a lock is certain people repeatedly calling for a lock in obnoxious large red letters remenecint of the worst excesses of the magma of old.What about the people complaining about the people calling for a lock?
we don't do it as much and we don't quote ourselves
Post by: nenjin on December 29, 2017, 09:26:00 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 29, 2017, 09:29:03 am
Jesus, just stop posting unless you have news. With this game, "no news" isn't fucking news, nor is "we're angry that you're not as angry as we are."
goes to an internet forum, tells people to stop posting
good luck with that one
Post by: IronyOwl on December 29, 2017, 04:42:15 pm
Post by: Jopax on December 29, 2017, 05:15:54 pm
But sure, prove me wrong by discussing the game itself, the features and the gameplay video without devolving into arguing over wether it's real or not within a goddamned page and I'll be happy to shut my mouth on the topic for good.
Post by: Xantalos on December 29, 2017, 07:14:10 pm
Post by: birdy51 on December 29, 2017, 08:08:18 pm
Post by: milo christiansen on December 29, 2017, 10:13:08 pm
Just file off a few serial numbers and otherwise follow the basic plan, at this point the fans would cheer any such effort on so long as it wasn't a totally obvious cash grab.
Post by: Gornova on December 30, 2017, 12:30:04 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 30, 2017, 12:55:18 pm
Just found it today: https://emprom.itch.io/elder-chaos what do you think guys? Seems promising in some wayIt's getting panned in the steam reviews though.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 30, 2017, 01:05:28 pm
Post by: milo christiansen on December 30, 2017, 01:47:26 pm
That said, the patch notes for the version just before that mention fixes/improvements to some of the things most of the negative reviews mention.
shrug Who knows? Could be good, but at first glance not good enough for me to buy.
Post by: lordcooper on December 30, 2017, 02:42:38 pm
Post by: Gornova on December 31, 2017, 04:38:24 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 10, 2018, 10:52:43 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP6RailZ2cY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8DRtMjob0U
Post by: ventuswings on March 10, 2018, 11:18:33 am
Post by: Xantalos on March 10, 2018, 11:36:28 am
Don't have time to watch the vids right now but I'm happy there's something to watch at least?
Post by: Cthulhu on March 10, 2018, 11:39:43 am
i just can't work up the energy to be excited anymore. this game is dead to me. i'm like two minutes into the video and just can't keep my attention on it.
Post by: Xantalos on March 10, 2018, 11:48:58 am
...
This is way more intriguing to me than it should be. What the heck's going on behind the scenes here?
Post by: Karlito on March 10, 2018, 11:58:36 am
This is way more intriguing to me than it should be. What the heck's going on behind the scenes here?Probably got some more FTC complaints.
Post by: RebelZhouYuWu on March 10, 2018, 12:00:23 pm
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 10, 2018, 03:18:15 pm
It does however not show any actual gameplay, so if you were waiting for that you can skip these videos. However IF he does any actual follow ups it might be good to watch them anyway to know whatīs going on later.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 10, 2018, 08:05:03 pm
Huh, on skimming through he doesn't even really mention the delay between video releases at all.Time dilation, I guess. Maybe it actually has been a week on his side.
...
This is way more intriguing to me than it should be. What the heck's going on behind the scenes here?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 10, 2018, 08:32:34 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 10, 2018, 08:40:25 pm
Kind of skipping around the videos, but he's just talking over a UI. Still no actual sign that a game exists.The sentiment is overly pessimistic, but I wonder. The videos are very top-level design stuff without a lot of details, this thing affects that thing without giving actual ratios, average values, relation to gameplay, etc etc, and explaining each concept as it became relevant in a playthrough would have been a better way to do it besides. A lot of it also seems overly complex, so it's easier to believe he put it down on paper than wrote it in code, tested it a bunch, and nodded in satisfaction.This is way more intriguing to me than it should be. What the heck's going on behind the scenes here?Probably got some more FTC complaints.
If he doesn't get an actual playthrough out soon, I think my vote's going for another mockup of the design decisions his game will totally use at some point in the future.
Post by: RebelZhouYuWu on March 10, 2018, 09:13:15 pm
Quote from: IronyOwl link=topic=141997.msg7707943#msg7707943
If he doesn't get an actual playthrough out soon, I think my vote's going for another mockup of the design decisions his game will totally use at some point in the future.
Well, we will see in his next video 3 months later if he releases more gameplay footage or not. My concern is that he didn't even give a time line for the next video, nor a kickstarter update.
Post by: Cruxador on March 10, 2018, 09:30:51 pm
Refraining from giving a timeline is probably for the best, given how the last one worked out.Quote from: IronyOwl link=topic=141997.msg7707943#msg7707943If he doesn't get an actual playthrough out soon, I think my vote's going for another mockup of the design decisions his game will totally use at some point in the future.
Well, we will see in his next video 3 months later if he releases more gameplay footage or not. My concern is that he didn't even give a time line for the next video, nor a kickstarter update.
Post by: ventuswings on March 11, 2018, 12:27:01 am
Post by: Cthulhu on March 11, 2018, 12:31:13 am
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 11, 2018, 04:26:31 am
he should really refrain from posting anything
that is not playable.
It would be so easy, just release whatever he is clicking around in right now.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 12, 2018, 10:52:56 am
This set of videos opened at 1402.4, which is 17 turns beyond where he stopped the last video. But! It's not the same session. Last video he ran with Inatha, and thus time he ran with Karth.
I would bet against these being design documents, and for there being something real that's there. I'd likely abstain from betting on the existence of a mid/late game, but if forced would probably place a small amount on there being one. It'd be nice to see a playthrough
EDIT: Belial, apparently. Not Karth.
Post by: AlStar on March 12, 2018, 01:56:59 pm
I feel like perhaps part of the problem is that every time the dev decides to change some systems, he spends a month coming up with flavor text.
Post by: Zangi on March 12, 2018, 10:04:57 pm
The denizens of the land gather yet again, emotions of all kinds run through its peoples.
Is the time of awakening nigh? Or will that which sleeps slumber still, content with its dreams?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 12, 2018, 10:16:02 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 12, 2018, 11:40:21 pm
At this point I can't expect anything, but I certainly enjoy listening to and thinking about what this thing might be.
Post by: birdy51 on March 13, 2018, 09:08:07 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 13, 2018, 02:38:55 pm
The thing that struck me while watching the videos is how complete the game looks - there doesn't appear to be any dummy text for anything. Every resource, character, option... everything has its full flavor text.
oh, there's more dummy text than you think
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 13, 2018, 03:03:32 pm
Few things of note. There seem to be 24 turns to a year, so 100 turns is "just" about 4 years. Which doesn't strike me as unreasonable for some of the challenges with that time. It also makes sense from a game play perspective. It means small things of importance could be happening on each individual turn, punctuated with large discoveries or shifts spread much farther out. It's the type of game play you'd want a game like this to have.
The things we can see in the video that take about 100 turns or more:
Transcribing a tome
Identifying a relic
Scribing Arcana
Experiments
Penning a critique
Except for the last one 4 years seems like a reasonable timeframe indeed (if the tomes and Arcana are suffiently complex, like large books or encyclopedias). But that must be one hell of a critique.
Post by: AlStar on March 13, 2018, 03:10:33 pm
Maybe there's something I missed, but - for instance - when he was quickly scrolling over the seals for his god, those all had full stats and text, all the trade goods his mouse happened to hit also had a description and effects, as did the upgrades in both the civics tab and the underworld tab.The thing that struck me while watching the videos is how complete the game looks - there doesn't appear to be any dummy text for anything. Every resource, character, option... everything has its full flavor text.
oh, there's more dummy text than you think
I didn't see anything that looked like "TEXT GOES HERE" or "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet...".
Post by: nenjin on March 13, 2018, 03:22:04 pm
But yeah, every time I stopped the videos to read, I didn't see anything that looked like placeholder text.
Post by: E. Albright on March 13, 2018, 05:13:13 pm
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 14, 2018, 04:43:27 am
Post by: Damiac on March 14, 2018, 12:10:46 pm
If you give me your money, I'll repay your trust by updating you on the progress of the development of my finished game once a
Oh, just to clarify, I'm not actually the dev of this game. I'm a close business associate, and I've actually played through the 100% complete game. The dev is just kinda shy, so he prefers for all communication to go through me. Also I've never met him, nor do I have any idea what the game will be like, even though I've already played it.
Now, I'm a busy
Thank you, and give me money. Don't be an entitled brat about it either, in the unlikely event that the game fails to exist, you should appreciate that you had the opportunity to participate in the development of this already complete game.
Post by: nenjin on March 14, 2018, 12:20:55 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 14, 2018, 12:25:41 pm
The claim hadn't really been that the game was 100% complete. It was that a stable demo for playtesting existed (and even that got walked back when the Kickstarter went live). The actual Kickstarter just says they have a "stable working game engine". Whether any of that's true or not we'll never really know, because anything that existed got jettisoned because a new engine was required for the stretch goals. (which is still terrible project management...).
Joe being the one that did all communications is definitively wrong. Josh did a lot of communication back in the beginning. That's part of why this was all such a shock - he went from extremely active to nothing. No idea as to why - emotional and mental state seems to be the prevailing theory, and makes the most sense, but it could've been as simple as just keeping away so he'd stop making promises on features - but he did communicate heavily.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 14, 2018, 12:33:41 pm
Post by: Karlito on March 14, 2018, 12:48:04 pm
Post by: RebelZhouYuWu on March 14, 2018, 05:28:11 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 14, 2018, 05:44:13 pm
The TIGSource thread is probably what you're thinking of. (https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=41735.0)Wow, that's a lot of detail and a lot of flavor text. No wonder people were a bizarre mix of hopeful, enraged, and incredulous when it all vanished somehow.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 14, 2018, 10:59:15 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 15, 2018, 12:10:27 pm
The inventor (whether it be a game, product, whatever) has this idea and maybe some proof of concept(at least, what he thinks is a proof of concept). He is pretty sure there's something to this, so decides to go out and get some funding.
He pitches it, of course hyping as much as possible, because you are trying to draw people in. He believes this can be done, so he's not scamming anyone.
It catches interest, and people start asking questions. Can I do this in the game? What about that? And the dev, still wanting to draw people in, starts to have a reason to be a bit... overly optimistic. While he wasn't planning to do that stuff, it's probably not too hard, and it does sound cool. So he says "Yeah, that'll be in it", or makes stretch goals, whatever. Still not a scam, but it's started to get away from the guy.
Down the line, the initial idea doesn't seem to be working, but he's still sure he can turn it around. At the same time, he has to appear to be making progress, and keep people interested, and donating. He's working long hours, getting burned out, but keeps a positive demeanor, and tries to make the updates sound as good as possible. Not lying, but not telling everything. Not a scam, but starting to lose honesty.
Further in time, while the core game loop doesn't quite work, the graphics look nice, he's got all his text in place (He has to keep posting pretty pictures and updates after all to keep the people interested). Maybe he works the screenshots a bit to make it look like the gameplay exists. He's not working crazy overtime anymore, the burnout is getting worse, and he's distracting himself from the real problem by working on other, easier (and more fun) stuff. That generates more pretty pictures to show prospective funders, so he keeps going. At this point, he's deluded and has begun to scam himself.
Then the cycle continues. Dev is getting more and more frustrated, as are backers. Telling little white lies to get the pressure off starts getting tempting. Maybe he's not sure he can do this anymore, but he's already spent the money! This is where it swings over to full scam, because while the dev never intended to make a scam, he's now collecting money for something he doesn't know if he can do. Meanwhile his backers have probably split into factions, and there are always defenders. Now his defenders are repeating not entirely true things the dev said, or are just making stuff up themselves, and he isn't going to go and correct them. The dev doesn't need to lie, he just lets the defenders come in and defend him with whatever version of facts they believe. Meanwhile money is still coming in.
This is what I think happens with a lot of crowdfunding "scams". It doesn't look like a scam because it wasn't intended to be one, it just ended up that way. Even though the dev wasn't going out and lying, he wasn't trying too hard to dispel the untrue things that were favorable to him.
So the dev isn't in a great position themselves, why would anyone plan a scam like this? They wouldn't, they find themselves in it too deep to see a way out, and the only way to keep the pressure off is to keep it going. But when that happens it still needs to be called out.
Post by: Serenseven on March 15, 2018, 12:18:36 pm
EDIT: Actually, over two years ago now.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 15, 2018, 01:12:17 pm
... I realize you're caricaturizing That Which Sleeps, so this is kinda moot, but you're overdoing it a bit.
The claim hadn't really been that the game was 100% complete. It was that a stable demo for playtesting existed (and even that got walked back when the Kickstarter went live). The actual Kickstarter just says they have a "stable working game engine".
Nope. It says, "We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion." so there can't be any excuse at this point.
The dev was in this thread before and during the kickstarter, and talked a lot about the game and what he was doing. If this is a scam, it's one where somebody did a whole lot of work keeping their story straight for the privilege of making a little money and then having to put out new fake updates with a lot of effort behind them, every few months, forever.
Not really "a lot of work" - and the story was never really "straight." If you reread everything he ever wrote you can easily see that's he just bullshitting about some cool game he imagines - not something that existed at the time.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 15, 2018, 01:17:09 pm
With the rise in crowdfunding, I think we need another word. Something like scam, but one that didn't start as one? Maybe where even the scammer is scamming himself? Because I think that's what happened here, and with a lot of other crowdfunded efforts.
The inventor (whether it be a game, product, whatever) has this idea and maybe some proof of concept(at least, what he thinks is a proof of concept). He is pretty sure there's something to this, so decides to go out and get some funding.
He pitches it, of course hyping as much as possible, because you are trying to draw people in. He believes this can be done, so he's not scamming anyone.
It catches interest, and people start asking questions. Can I do this in the game? What about that? And the dev, still wanting to draw people in, starts to have a reason to be a bit... overly optimistic. While he wasn't planning to do that stuff, it's probably not too hard, and it does sound cool. So he says "Yeah, that'll be in it", or makes stretch goals, whatever. Still not a scam, but it's started to get away from the guy.
Down the line, the initial idea doesn't seem to be working, but he's still sure he can turn it around. At the same time, he has to appear to be making progress, and keep people interested, and donating. He's working long hours, getting burned out, but keeps a positive demeanor, and tries to make the updates sound as good as possible. Not lying, but not telling everything. Not a scam, but starting to lose honesty.
Further in time, while the core game loop doesn't quite work, the graphics look nice, he's got all his text in place (He has to keep posting pretty pictures and updates after all to keep the people interested). Maybe he works the screenshots a bit to make it look like the gameplay exists. He's not working crazy overtime anymore, the burnout is getting worse, and he's distracting himself from the real problem by working on other, easier (and more fun) stuff. That generates more pretty pictures to show prospective funders, so he keeps going. At this point, he's deluded and has begun to scam himself.
Then the cycle continues. Dev is getting more and more frustrated, as are backers. Telling little white lies to get the pressure off starts getting tempting. Maybe he's not sure he can do this anymore, but he's already spent the money! This is where it swings over to full scam, because while the dev never intended to make a scam, he's now collecting money for something he doesn't know if he can do. Meanwhile his backers have probably split into factions, and there are always defenders. Now his defenders are repeating not entirely true things the dev said, or are just making stuff up themselves, and he isn't going to go and correct them. The dev doesn't need to lie, he just lets the defenders come in and defend him with whatever version of facts they believe. Meanwhile money is still coming in.
This is what I think happens with a lot of crowdfunding "scams". It doesn't look like a scam because it wasn't intended to be one, it just ended up that way. Even though the dev wasn't going out and lying, he wasn't trying too hard to dispel the untrue things that were favorable to him.
So the dev isn't in a great position themselves, why would anyone plan a scam like this? They wouldn't, they find themselves in it too deep to see a way out, and the only way to keep the pressure off is to keep it going. But when that happens it still needs to be called out.
the word is "vaporware"
Post by: Farce on March 16, 2018, 08:57:22 pm
I don't think they're malicious or anything, just that they didn't realize how shitty that one change was going to make things. That plus the nature of indie development and projects in general PLUS the pressure from the community being mad about it not going according to schedule - which is rare enough even for projects that go well - and I think it's understandable for the delay.
I also think it's kind of shitty to defame the developer over an investment like, what, 15-30 bucks to back him? It's not exactly a massive chunk of cash, and Kickstarter projects are always things that are in development, not a discount pre-order store.
And like, if I seem mad about this, I am. I can understand being disappointed, but what the fuck is the point of shitting on the guy? I actively hate people dumping on him because it makes That Which Sleeps even less likely to ever happen. Could he have conducted his PR better? Probably. Could the community have conducted themselves better? I think so. You're not sticking it to some Big Evil Corporation, he's just some rando that couldn't deliver. If you're right, then you gain nothing except the smugness of posthumously identifying a scam that won't ever actually be confirmed by anyone, and if you're wrong, then all you're doing is making this guy's life shittier and development harder.
Ugh. Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.
Post by: nenjin on March 16, 2018, 09:42:25 pm
Quote
Ugh. Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.
That's because we keep having the same conversation anytime the thread is bumped.
Post by: Sartain on March 17, 2018, 02:36:41 am
Post by: Zangi on March 17, 2018, 05:50:42 pm
Really though, I just chalk it up to the money being spent years ago and it ain't really worth responding to refund requests. (not professionals)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 17, 2018, 05:59:16 pm
Post by: Sartain on March 17, 2018, 09:26:28 pm
Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.
I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam
Post by: AlStar on March 17, 2018, 10:26:29 pm
I would've thought the fact that he hasn't disappeared to some island paradise and continues to (occasionally) post new stuff would make you think it wasn't a blatant scam.Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.
I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam
Post by: dennislp3 on March 17, 2018, 11:55:12 pm
I would've thought the fact that he hasn't disappeared to some island paradise and continues to (occasionally) post new stuff would make you think it wasn't a blatant scam.Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.
I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam
This...I think the truth is more along the lines of someone jumping ahead of themselves and then running into a critical issue that required a complete rebuild of the game. At least the last proper communication seemed to be about how there was a critical issue with how the AI worked...money spent long ago and forgotten...I don't mind at this point but I do look forward to maybe getting a game some day.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
I still blame stretch goals. When that first pitch came around the map was static - we bitched and whined for randomly-generated ones, he said it was a bad idea, we threw enough money at it to hit the randomly-generated-map stretch goal and he relented to the pressure, and then this happened.
I don't think they're malicious or anything, just that they didn't realize how shitty that one change was going to make things. That plus the nature of indie development and projects in general PLUS the pressure from the community being mad about it not going according to schedule - which is rare enough even for projects that go well - and I think it's understandable for the delay.
I also think it's kind of shitty to defame the developer over an investment like, what, 15-30 bucks to back him? It's not exactly a massive chunk of cash, and Kickstarter projects are always things that are in development, not a discount pre-order store.
And like, if I seem mad about this, I am. I can understand being disappointed, but what the fuck is the point of shitting on the guy? I actively hate people dumping on him because it makes That Which Sleeps even less likely to ever happen. Could he have conducted his PR better? Probably. Could the community have conducted themselves better? I think so. You're not sticking it to some Big Evil Corporation, he's just some rando that couldn't deliver. If you're right, then you gain nothing except the smugness of posthumously identifying a scam that won't ever actually be confirmed by anyone, and if you're wrong, then all you're doing is making this guy's life shittier and development harder.
Ugh. Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.
The reason I, and I assume others, keep railing about this isn't because of this one guy. This is a pattern, and there's a lot of bizarre anti-consumer sentiment that keeps going with it because it's 'indies' and not 'a big evil company'. Indies are exactly the type you need the most protection from. Are you more worried about a national company taking your money and running, or a random contractor?
If people want to get into the business of taking people's money in exchange for future promises, then yeah, they need to be held accountable. People need to look back at this and say "Oh wow, how do we avoid this happening again" not "Oh no, how do we stop people from complaining about this happening again?".
This isn't hard. It's civilization 101, you say "Do this and I'll do that", then they do this, and you are responsible to do that. And if you say you will do something based on a condition, it's a contract. Even with nothing written down and nothing signed it's a contract, the paperwork just makes it formal. So this "technically according to kickstarter policy..." is nothing. That might decide who wins a court case, but it doesn't change the simple promise made up front.
Whether you didn't do the thing you said you'd do because you never were going to, or because you didn't actually know how to do that thing, it doesn't matter. Don't make contracts you can't keep.
If, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project? It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns. Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward. On the other hand, the backers have all the risk, and the best reward possible is the thing they were promised in the first place. If the game makes 2 billion dollars, the backers get nothing extra.
If you want kickstarter to be that, just a place for virtual handouts for programmer bums, don't expect much in the way of quality or interest in large projects, since people keep getting burned by broken promises. You already see this, people keep swearing off crowdfunding after their latest interesting project just ran off with the money (or spent it all trying).
If you want kickstarter to actually be a platform for novel ideas that mainstream publishers aren't willing to take a risk on, then hold the developers accountable! They're still getting an awesome deal! A publisher takes on the risk, yes, but they take most of the reward as well. Crowdfunded projects have the risk taken on by the community, and the dev gets all the reward! The only reward the funders get is the game itself! So naturally it would make sense for their funding to be protected, and an MVP must be shipped, or the dev gets to get sued.
So keep defending devs who deliver nothing if you don't mind crowdfunding to be nothing but a feel good novelty. If you'd like to continue to see actual good things come out of kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms, keep demanding accountability.
And this should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, none of this means that any form of harassment is OK. The accountability I talk about is financial, nobody should be getting attacked for failing to deliver on their promises, only sued.
Post by: nenjin on March 19, 2018, 01:09:02 pm
So the consumer outrage seems misplaced. Hate on this one project but its not enough for the size of the soap box youre currently shouting from.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 01:13:57 pm
When you pledge to a kickstarter you are knowingly taking on the risk that you may never see a product, or the product may not be what you wanted. You are choosing to pay for something that doesn't exist. That risk will never go away, no matter what you do, so long as you keep paying for things that don't yet exist.
Post by: Serenseven on March 19, 2018, 01:35:03 pm
And this should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, none of this means that any form of harassment is OK. The accountability I talk about is financial, nobody should be getting attacked for failing to deliver on their promises, only sued.
The cost to sue Josh over TWS would be worth far more than the recoverable amount at this point, which is why anyone who has looked seriously into the matter has refrained from proceeding.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 19, 2018, 01:44:55 pm
Plenty of Kickstarters do what they say they will and produce great products. This is the 2nd Kickstarter out of 20 Ive backed that was a bust.
So the consumer outrage seems misplaced. Hate on this one project but its not enough for the size of the soap box youre currently shouting from.
You are a lucky one, the stats suggest that less then half make it to a finished thing.
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:12:32 pm
And this should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, none of this means that any form of harassment is OK. The accountability I talk about is financial, nobody should be getting attacked for failing to deliver on their promises, only sued.
The cost to sue Josh over TWS would be worth far more than the recoverable amount at this point, which is why anyone who has looked seriously into the matter has refrained from proceeding.
I don't think that's really true and I'd be curious who said that where.
The issue is more that it's not worth any one person's time to mess with. Getting ripped off for $25-$50 doesn't really give you a big incentive to run out there and hire an attorney. Even if you're entitled to recover attorney's fees, which many states let you do in a fraud case, and even if your attorney is going to work on contingency fee (which he probably would). You'd have to be so mad about the whole thing that you'd be willing to invest a bunch of your own time to get revenge over $50.
If you were an individual person and somebody stole $85k-100k from you, of course it would be worth your time to hire an attorney.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 02:16:19 pm
Such an elaborate scam, it keeps resurfacing for some durn reason. When it could have stayed dead and forgotten.
Really though, I just chalk it up to the money being spent years ago and it ain't really worth responding to refund requests. (not professionals)
There's a word for when you spend all the investment capital without producing anything, and thus are unable to refund the starting capital, nor are you able to produce the promised product. "Nonperformance". It doesn't have to be intentional, but it's still a breach of contract.
There's even another word for THAT when the investment capital was procured at least partially by saying a prototype of the product exists and functions. That's "FRAUD"! No accident here, because it takes a lie. Something like "This game already exists and we have played it" or something like that...
I would love to see how you feel if your electric company overcharged you for years and owed you $1000 when you found out, and then decided
Quote
it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.I think you might call that.... a scam?
But yeah, just keep blaming the people who lost their money because they believed a lie, they put too much pressure on the liars and that's why they couldn't finish the game they lied about already having.
Post by: Persus13 on March 19, 2018, 02:20:36 pm
Pretty sure those stats include kickstarters that aren't successfully funded.Plenty of Kickstarters do what they say they will and produce great products. This is the 2nd Kickstarter out of 20 Ive backed that was a bust.
So the consumer outrage seems misplaced. Hate on this one project but its not enough for the size of the soap box youre currently shouting from.
You are a lucky one, the stats suggest that less then half make it to a finished thing.
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/stats
It sounds like both of you are trying to say the same thing here.The cost to sue Josh over TWS would be worth far more than the recoverable amount at this point, which is why anyone who has looked seriously into the matter has refrained from proceeding.
I don't think that's really true and I'd be curious who said that where.
If you were an individual person and somebody stole $85k-100k from you, of course it would be worth your time to hire an attorney.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:23:14 pm
Such an elaborate scam, it keeps resurfacing for some durn reason. When it could have stayed dead and forgotten.
Really though, I just chalk it up to the money being spent years ago and it ain't really worth responding to refund requests. (not professionals)
There's a word for when you spend all the investment capital without producing anything, and thus are unable to refund the starting capital, nor are you able to produce the promised product. "Nonperformance". It doesn't have to be intentional, but it's still a breach of contract.
There's even another word for THAT when the investment capital was procured at least partially by saying a prototype of the product exists and functions. That's "FRAUD"! No accident here, because it takes a lie. Something like "This game already exists and we have played it" or something like that...
But yeah, just keep blaming the people who lost their money because they believed a lie, they put too much pressure on the liars and that's why they couldn't finish the game they lied about already having.
and let's keep in mind, it's not just that single line in the KS about "we have a working game." it's crap like this:
The moment you take a "radical" choice like killing the King and his immediate family, you get the unexpected - like one time I had cursed the King's Family, the Barons declared him unfit, split into two nations, and began to fight a civil war. Meanwhile the Tribes had united behind a Hero, who they proclaimed their chosen king, but he was Cylarian, the barons have a diplomatic summit after a bloody battle, declare the Cylarian hero their king (I didn't see this result but I'm assuming its because he is friends with all the barons and the heroes that were acting as diplomats), making him the king of both powers, he then went on to marry the daughter of the elves (at this point he's simply a diplomatic monster)... overthrows the Elvish Council and declares himself King.... now his ego and diplomatic skill are both max, he manages to Annex Elerion into Cylaria (still only three crowns) - I'm just watching this happen, because I'm spellbound, I don't want to interfere because I need to know what can possibly happen. The united three kingdoms attack Arden, recapturing the farmlands, he makes peace and turns Arden into an ally.
Long story short, he discovers I'm rising and crushes me. Despite the fact that he was simply taking over the world he was friendly with every hero, so no one was stopping him. I ended up adjusting how heroes see other friends if they're growing too powerful, but the completely random events that lead up to this were otherwise "expected" to function that way. In addition, later builds implemented the Balance of Power desire which makes nations take a more critical eye at people who are growing stronger.
Now that's an outlier but still somewhat understandable based on the scenario setup, if you add in the Game Modes you get some real crazy stuff. I have a lot of favorite Modes, but on the North Burns playing with "Liberty" is a really fun way to switch it - it makes revolutions and slave revolts much more common and you get to see the world rip itself apart and remake itself.
he is very clearly describing a working game there. and this was 3 days into the ks campaign, before it had even funded.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:26:16 pm
It sounds like both of you are trying to say the same thing here.The cost to sue Josh over TWS would be worth far more than the recoverable amount at this point, which is why anyone who has looked seriously into the matter has refrained from proceeding.
I don't think that's really true and I'd be curious who said that where.
If you were an individual person and somebody stole $85k-100k from you, of course it would be worth your time to hire an attorney.
not really. he's saying it would be too expensive. i'm saying nobody cares enough.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 02:33:36 pm
I would love to see how you feel if your electric company overcharged you for years and owed you $1000 when you found out, and then decided it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.
Don't you think that is a slightly different thing? Just a little?
1. If an electric company overcharges you, they are in error. They have charged you more money than you agreed to pay whether that is per KWH or per month or whatever.
2. An electric company is obligated by law to respond to grievances as they are a utility. They're also heavily regulated by law as to what they can and cannot do.
Now this kickstarter situation:
1. You were only charged exactly what you agreed to pay, with the knowledge that the money would be used to fund a creation process.
2. The creator is under no legal obligation to provide or even respond to refund requests. This does not make anything a scam, it's just how Kickstarter works.
You've talked a lot about what you want kickstarter to be but that isn't what it is. If you want kickstarter to be something it isn't, some dream you have for a crowd-funding website, then go make your own crowd-funding website and make it the way you want it to be. Kickstarter isn't going to change into what you want it to be just because you want it to.
The fact of the matter is that you accepted the kickstarter terms of service, you pledged an amount of money to a project with an uncertain future, and now that the uncertain future has (gasp) been shown to be uncertain you are upset. Accept that you made a bad decision, or be patient and maybe eventually get your game that you paid for.
Or just keep blaming other people for your mistakes I guess. You seem to be very focused on how everyone has wronged you and nobody is doing it right. Is that working for you? At the end of the day, as far as I can tell they have broken no laws nor have they violated any kickstarter rules. The only one responsible for you being parted from your money is you.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:37:18 pm
I would love to see how you feel if your electric company overcharged you for years and owed you $1000 when you found out, and then decided it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.
Don't you think that is a slightly different thing? Just a little?
1. If an electric company overcharges you, they are in error. They have charged you more money than you agreed to pay whether that is per KWH or per month or whatever.
2. An electric company is obligated by law to respond to grievances as they are a utility. They're also heavily regulated by law as to what they can and cannot do.
Now this kickstarter situation:
1. You were only charged exactly what you agreed to pay, with the knowledge that the money would be used to fund a creation process.
2. The creator is under no legal obligation to provide or even respond to refund requests. This does not make anything a scam, it's just how Kickstarter works.
You've talked a lot about what you want kickstarter to be but that isn't what it is. If you want kickstarter to be something it isn't, some dream you have for a crowd-funding website, then go make your own crowd-funding website and make it the way you want it to be. Kickstarter isn't going to change into what you want it to be just because you want it to.
The fact of the matter is that you accepted the kickstarter terms of service, you pledged an amount of money to a project with an uncertain future, and now that the uncertain future has (gasp) been shown to be uncertain you are upset. Accept that you made a bad decision, or be patient and maybe eventually get your game that you paid for.
Or just keep blaming other people for your mistakes I guess. You seem to be very focused on how everyone has wronged you and nobody is doing it right. Is that working for you? At the end of the day, as far as I can tell they have broken no laws nor have they violated any kickstarter rules. The only one responsible for you being parted from your money is you.
as always, the flaw with this argument has always been that he was running around describing this elaborate game he had already developed, with all kinds of amazing situations emerging, in the game that he had supposedly created.
plenty of people pledged thinking, "wow, that sounds cool, i'll support that." when in fact the game being described was a total fabrication. which means the pledges were acquired fraudulently.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 02:41:13 pm
As always, your options are:
1. Report it to kickstarter if you think they broke one of the terms of service.
2. Sue the parties responsible if you think they broke the law.
If the cost for individual suits is not worthwhile, then you need to gather more people and perform a larger suit, compiling the individual complaints and spreading out the costs.
It's unlikely you will get much, I doubt the dev has a lot to be sued for. It isn't like he got a ton of money for this. Personally I hope the whole mess results in a good game. Failing that, maybe a half decent game we can mod to be good.
Post by: Serenseven on March 19, 2018, 02:45:02 pm
It's unlikely you will get much, I doubt the dev has a lot to be sued for. It isn't like he got a ton of money for this.
This is actually what I meant with my original comment. Sure a court can find him liable for $85K, but if he doesn't have the money, we still don't get paid. A court order can't create money where none exists.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:47:18 pm
To prove that you'd need to obtain evidence of fraud. I consider it much more likely that the process failed due to the stretch goals, but I'd rather not rehash old arguments as I know we've been down this rabbithole before and it ended with an angry toad and a locked thread.
You're thinking about what did or did not happen after the campaign succeeded and the stretch goals. That really has absolutely nothing to do with it whether or not he defrauded the backers.
It could absolutely be that "the process failed due to the stretch goals" - it would still be fraud.
There is plenty of evidence of fraud. The post of his I just quoted is evidence of fraud, because it's a total fabrication, which he's using to get people to back his game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 02:48:13 pm
A suit could possibly force him to turn over evidence of the original kickstarter claims of a working game to prove it wasn't fraud. If he can't, that might spell trouble. I still doubt anyone would get their money back though.It's unlikely you will get much, I doubt the dev has a lot to be sued for. It isn't like he got a ton of money for this.
This is actually what I meant with my original comment. Sure a court can find him liable for $85K, but if he doesn't have the money, we still don't get paid. A court order can't create money where none exists.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:52:47 pm
It's unlikely you will get much, I doubt the dev has a lot to be sued for. It isn't like he got a ton of money for this.
This is actually what I meant with my original comment. Sure a court can find him liable for $85K, but if he doesn't have the money, we still don't get paid. A court order can't create money where none exists.
that's what liens and garnishments are for.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 03:14:33 pm
Let kickstarter tell people that "technically they aren't owed a refund". Meanwhile spread the word about this fraud, so his other fraudulent ventures don't get any steam. Go over the failings of this project, show where the fraud started becoming obvious and how we can more quickly detect this kind of bullshit in the future.
I know it's fun to put people in their place for being all 'entitled' and thinking they should 'get what they paid for', but maybe consider that you are also a consumer and I'm assuming you don't want to be ripped off yourself.
Here's an example of how stuff works in my line of work, I think it's got some similarities:
Someone says "I want a machine that does X, Y, and Z. How much would you guys charge me to make such a machine?"
One of our sales engineers then uses their experience, knowledge, etc to come up with a solution, and a price quote. Obviously we can't engineer the entire machine before we've collected any payment, so there's some guessing here.
The potential customer is provided with a price. Thus a contract is offered: "I will pay you some amount of money to deliver a machine that does X, Y, and Z"
Usually, the machine falls within the budget and my company pockets a profit, the customer gets their machine, everyone's happy.
HOWEVER! Sometimes mistakes are made. After spending all that money, sometimes we end up with a machine that does not in fact perform X, Y, and Z. Oh no! Now what? The money is gone, but we can't deliver the promised machine? What do we do?
Now, I know what you're thinking, just stop answering the phone and they'll go away eventually right? After all,
Quote
it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.
But in fact, that's not what we do! In such situations typically we'll attempt to negotiate a modified price for the machine. Sometimes it's close enough and a small price reduction makes everyone happy. Sometimes, however, the machine is just unsuitable.
So what do we do? Well, maybe we try again, and eat the cost ourselves. We don't make money on the job, but the customer is still happy.
Maybe we give the money back? Even though we've actually spent the money the customer gave us to build the crappy machine, we essentially borrow from ourselves to pay back the customer.
Well actually, I should back up. The very first thing we do when we realize we in fact cannot accomplish what we said we would is to...
COMMUNICATE TO THE CUSTOMER. You know, rather than just going quiet for a year.
Although... maybe Bernie Madoff just didn't realize his ponzi scheme wasn't going to work out. And anyway, the people weren't giving him money in exchange for a product, they knew it was an INVESTMENT with RISK, they were entitled to nothing! I still feel bad for ol' Bernie, they should have been fine with their money being gone, and been happy knowing maybe, someday, they'd get something out of it. Just because he lied about the premise to get their money doesn't mean he shouldn't get to keep it anyway!
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 03:20:52 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 03:29:59 pm
Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic. The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point.
Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.
Post by: Retropunch on March 19, 2018, 03:30:47 pm
Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.
Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.
The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all - of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.
You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 03:35:37 pm
Also, class action law suits are a thing.
Not that I'm saying the court route is the best way to proceed here, as people point out, you can't get blood from a stone, but yeah, there's a mechanism in place already for people stealing small amounts not worth suing over from lots and lots of people. It's not exactly new.
Now if the kickstarter policy is that creators are allowed to make fraudulent claims, then I guess they're probably the legally actionable ones, but I somehow doubt that's their policy.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 03:37:29 pm
The court route will never, ever work.
Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.
Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.
The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all - of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.
You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.
yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.
1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.
2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.
3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 03:40:48 pm
Well, since all there is here is a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and no game, it seems like the perfect topic for how this was a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and there is no game.I'm not yelling at anyone? Nor am I defending anyone. I just poked a hole in your ridiculous analogy. You'd have every right to be angry about 'losing your preorder' if you had. But what you're doing is just dropping in and shouting about fraud and how terrible crowd funding is in general because these people keep 'getting away with it' and then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of 'shilling' for him. What does that mean? I'm certainly not supporting the dev. I didn't back this kickstarter, I'm not saying anyone should give him anything else. Hell I said to go ahead with a lawsuit if you feel its worthwhile. At what point am I shilling for him?
Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic. The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point.
Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.
I agree it would be in his best interest to at least show off some proof of his initial claims, but failing to do so does not make him guilty.
Post by: Shooer on March 19, 2018, 03:41:04 pm
By never going silent the guy is kind of protecting him self from it though. Seeing as most of the cases I found the fraudster canceled the project publicly or just went silent.
Post by: AlStar on March 19, 2018, 03:44:16 pm
Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.The reason it got bumped up again recently is because the guy posted some new videos showing off the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP6RailZ2cY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8DRtMjob0U
As has been noted before, he hasn't been taking new orders for years now.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 19, 2018, 03:54:12 pm
I tend to assume someone not understanding the buyers regret some of us have is trolling tbh.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 03:56:35 pm
Well, since all there is here is a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and no game, it seems like the perfect topic for how this was a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and there is no game.I'm not yelling at anyone? Nor am I defending anyone. I just poked a hole in your ridiculous analogy. You'd have every right to be angry about 'losing your preorder' if you had. But what you're doing is just dropping in and shouting about fraud and how terrible crowd funding is in general because these people keep 'getting away with it' and then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of 'shilling' for him. What does that mean? I'm certainly not supporting the dev. I didn't back this kickstarter, I'm not saying anyone should give him anything else. Hell I said to go ahead with a lawsuit if you feel its worthwhile. At what point am I shilling for him?
Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic. The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point.
Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.
I agree it would be in his best interest to at least show off some proof of his initial claims, but failing to do so does not make him guilty.
So, even though you keep going after people who post negatively about this project, and calling it a scam, you're not defending it. You also aren't involved in any way in it? You're actually just commenting on other people's comments, and you've admitted you have no interest in the topic to begin with, so why do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread? Bit of a pot/kettle situation, if you ask me. You are also the first and only person I accused of shilling at any point ever in this thread, so your characterization of my behavior seems a bit inaccurate.
You can see there actually is some interest in people attempting to recover some of their defrauded money. That's the most consistent theme in this thread lately, that and people like you white knighting for the dev's fraudulent behavior. I realize he's not taking any more money, that's smart of him to not continue the ongoing fraud, but Stop trying to normalize fraud. If it's not OK for a big big company to do to you, it's not OK for a little tiny company (even one person) to do to you. And if you don't mind being cheated, that's fine, but don't get in the way of people who do mind.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2018, 04:00:20 pm
Making those videos he put out without there being an actual game is possible, yeah, but if he's going to program a thing just for the sake of faking it, he may as well go make a simple shitty game and claim that's how it was at the start of the kickstarter. Bam drama done. Instead he's spending time working on stuff to show off, which indicates that there's at least intent to make something polished.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 04:04:21 pm
Whether or not that is a smart way to make lots of money is irrelevant. He probably believed he could actually accomplish the things he fraudulently claimed to have already done. Still fraud though. Of course, if the claims weren't fraudulent, he could have released that already existing game, and there'd be no conversation happening now. But they were, so he didn't, so there is.
If he shits out a rainbow with 2 million US dollars at the end of it for every single backer tomorrow it was still fraud. Although I think they'd probably forgive him for it if he did that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 04:07:07 pm
The only way this is intentional fraud is if the guy made fraudulent claims while pitching it. Which he did!If you actually have proof that he committed fraud then go ahead and release it. I am almost certain that what you think is proof wouldn't actually hold up in a court, but you keep claiming that he did it so you must have proof right?
You've accused him of fraud, and now me of 'shilling' for him because I said he isn't obligated to refund someone's money. You've not provided any evidence of either. So far all you've done is slander and sensationalize.
Post by: nenjin on March 19, 2018, 04:42:28 pm
The only reason this topic has so much traffic is the "shrills" who think their outrage is actually productive in any way, shape or form. Who, every time an update comes up, have to come back here and shake their finger at people, repeating the same things they said 6 months ago.
Take it up with the BBB rather than bitching at people here for just...fucking...waiting.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 04:48:51 pm
If this makes me a shill, I guess I'm shilling.
Post by: Cruxador on March 19, 2018, 04:49:21 pm
So, even though you keep going after people who post negatively about this project, and calling it a scam, you're not defending it.You're constructing a false "us vs them" scenario here. Saying that someone has made a factually incorrect statement doesn't imply any particular position on what the false statement was referring to. Someone can disagree about it being a scam (and really, if you consider how monumentally ineffectual of a scam it would be, occam's razor cuts that notion to shreds) while still not thinking that Josh is comporting himself properly.
Quote
why do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread?While I kind of agree with your perspective that it's fine if conversation drifts within a thread, that's not really the dominant zeitgeist of the Bay12Forums. Suggesting that a different topic ought to be in a more appropriate thread is within the norm here, and not necessarily a matter of confrontation.
Quote
Stop trying to normalize fraud.I think this self-righteousness might be misplaced. Eating a loss when things don't work out isn't something to normalize, it's already normal.
The only way this being intentional fraud makes sense is if the guy is actually insaneI suspect he actually is dealing with mental health issues, and doing so somewhat poorly. The very inconsistent responses and output seem consistent with that, though he doesn't share enough information with us to say any more than that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 05:06:53 pm
Yeah to provide clarity here, I was not telling you (Damiac) to stop posting here just suggesting that you might find more discussion in a thread matching what seemed to be your overall tone. While the original poster of this thread hasn't given guidelines as to what can and cannot be discussed here, the topic is fairly clearly on this specific game and the forum's general guidelines request that we stay within topic in threads when possible. I wasn't intending that statement to imply that the discussion wasn't worth happening, just didn't want to clutter up this thread with discussions of general kickstarter bad-ness (or croundfunding bad-ness in general). If it seemed like I was trying to get you to go away, that was not my intention and I apologize.Quotewhy do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread?While I kind of agree with your perspective that it's fine if conversation drifts within a thread, that's not really the dominant zeitgeist of the Bay12Forums. Suggesting that a different topic ought to be in a more appropriate thread is within the norm here, and not necessarily a matter of confrontation.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2018, 05:09:08 pm
Well, he certainly seems stressed.The only way this being intentional fraud makes sense is if the guy is actually insaneI suspect he actually is dealing with mental health issues, and doing so somewhat poorly. The very inconsistent responses and output seem consistent with that, though he doesn't share enough information with us to say any more than that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 05:19:59 pm
Post by: Gornova on March 19, 2018, 05:21:05 pm
Note: no scam, no kickstarter, I just want to find a way to model something related to TWS, because I found it really interesting
Post by: Retropunch on March 19, 2018, 05:36:41 pm
The court route will never, ever work.
Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.
Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.
The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all - of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.
You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.
yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.
1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.
2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.
3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.
1. An attorney will take it if you actually have a chance of winning. Which you don't. Even if you did, you'd be hard pressed to find one which would take such a low level case in terms of potential damages. You're talking about a $30 pledge - that's less than an hourly salary for most lawyers - what possible damages have you suffered other than that loss? Sure, you could go class action, but I'd strongly doubt you'd get enough interested parties for a class action - however if you can justify that time/cost wise in terms of setting that all up then you're obviously on hard times as a lawyer.
2. I could knock together something that fulfilled all of the pledges (in word only) in a weekend and I'm a rubbish coder. Sure, it'd be the worst game ever, but it would live up to all the promises made. That's why a case wouldn't work.
3. I'm actually a previous US attorney general.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 05:50:09 pm
Post by: Frumple on March 19, 2018, 06:39:21 pm
Think technically "a US lawyer" doesn't necessitate board certified or whatever it is, either. Assuming one or both aren't just pulling things from probably uncomfortable orifices.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 08:34:03 pm
The court route will never, ever work.
Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.
Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.
The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all - of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.
You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.
yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.
1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.
2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.
3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.
1. An attorney will take it if you actually have a chance of winning. Which you don't. Even if you did, you'd be hard pressed to find one which would take such a low level case in terms of potential damages. You're talking about a $30 pledge - that's less than an hourly salary for most lawyers - what possible damages have you suffered other than that loss? Sure, you could go class action, but I'd strongly doubt you'd get enough interested parties for a class action - however if you can justify that time/cost wise in terms of setting that all up then you're obviously on hard times as a lawyer.
2. I could knock together something that fulfilled all of the pledges (in word only) in a weekend and I'm a rubbish coder. Sure, it'd be the worst game ever, but it would live up to all the promises made. That's why a case wouldn't work.
3. I'm actually a previous US attorney general.
as i suspected, you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about
1. you don't need "enough interested parties" for a class action. the person who walked in your door and told you what happened is enough to file. (arguably there could be two subclasses - people who backed on ks and people who pre-ordered on steam, but that's really besides the point.) there are almost 4700 kickstarter backers plus however many people prepurchased on steam. of course you have enough for a class; you can certify a class with as few as 40 members. it's enough to allege the scope of the class, get their exact identities and contact information in discovery (probably third party subpoenas to ks and steam) and then give them the option to opt out. they don't need to opt in.
but let's be real. 80% chance nobody responds to the complaint and you get a default judgment.
2. again, no. whatever crap he releases now, there's still the claim that the pledges were acquired through fraud - especially if the released product doesn't match the campaign descriptions.
3. wow, and a coder. amazing.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 08:35:50 pm
We have more lawyers here than I would have guessed.
eric holder has had a lot of free time since 2015
(retropunch is just being facetious)
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 20, 2018, 03:17:03 am
"Gameplay video.youtube"
"Gameplay video.2.youtube"
"Like 60 Screenshots from working game"
A few years later
"I littarly don't have anything lol and I won't answer anything from anyone, including my busness partner"
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 20, 2018, 03:26:54 am
Quote
If, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project? It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns. Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.QFT
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 20, 2018, 03:47:57 am
"I have a working game"Refusing to answer questions is not proof of fraud, nor is being slow with game development. If anything it is indicative of some kind of mental disorder, but crazy people can be game devs too I mean look at Derek Smart.
"Gameplay video.youtube"
"Gameplay video.2.youtube"
"Like 60 Screenshots from working game"
A few years later
"I littarly don't have anything lol and I won't answer anything from anyone, including my busness partner"
Those promises do have to be kept. I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue in any way that they don't. I'm kind of baffled at this whole attitude frankly, it's like some of you are having an argument that doesn't exist. I haven't seen a single person argue that the devs should be left alone and aren't responsible for finishing the game. Abandoning the project is against the terms of use for kickstarter and would be actionable I'd imagine. This clearly isn't abandoned, even if it isn't moving at a pace some people find acceptable.QuoteIf, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project? It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns. Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.QFT
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 08:16:39 am
He did say he had a working game, and went on to describe playthroughs of this working game. In the kickstarter pitch. So people who backed were assured by him that at the very least, they would get this described un-polished, but fun sounding game. This is a fact, you can go look at the quotes, this isn't opinion, this is what actually happened.
So he collected money, based at least partially on the basis that he already had a working prototype of a fun game. The fact that he has never released said prototype, or anything resembling the described playthroughs, even though doing so would release him from his obligations shows that the supposed prototype never existed.
So, and try to follow this please, because he lied about a having a fun game prototype he was going to polish and make even better, he collected lots and lots of funds from people who believed his lie. They gave him money based on his false statements. This is the very definition of fraud.
Luckily, people in this thread aren't in charge of legislation, and in fact kickstarter project founders have been successfully sued for failing to deliver on their promises.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/ (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/)
http://valleywag.gawker.com/it-just-got-easier-to-sue-failed-kickstarter-campaigns-1637720027 (http://valleywag.gawker.com/it-just-got-easier-to-sue-failed-kickstarter-campaigns-1637720027)
https://gamerant.com/kickstarter-class-action-lawsuit/ (https://gamerant.com/kickstarter-class-action-lawsuit/)
And this doesn't mean I think Chris is a bad person, I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but that doesn't excuse lying to get more money for the project. I hope he can make up for his fraudulent behavior and succeed in the future. I also have no ill will toward forsaken, retropunch, or anyone else here, normally I enjoy your posts, I just think you're wildly off base here, and it's quite perplexing to me, so I keep trying to restate myself to lay out what is so clear to me, stripped of judgement or emotion.
Oh, and by the way, I am actually a former president of the US, as well as former chancellor of Germany, and current Captain of the Floating Island of Crowdfunding Law and Ethics, so...
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 20, 2018, 10:08:35 am
Your second link is press about Kickstarter updating its ToS. Great, sure, but not really relevant.
Your third link is actually notable, but caveats being it was a default judgement, and the actual restitition was only $668. There's an additional $54000 in there, but that's legal fees ($23,183) and penalties for violating the state Consumer Protection Act ($31,000). And that was 2.5 years ago without, as far as I can tell, Washington filing anymore suits.
So, sure, the FTC pursued someone for not even trying, and Washington state got a default judgement on the one suit they filed. So other than "it might happen", I'm not sure you've established what you wanted to.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 20, 2018, 10:21:21 am
Your first link talks about legal action against a campaign that, apparently, literally took the money and ran, then lied about it. That's very different from That Which Sleeps.
::)
Post by: Zangi on March 20, 2018, 10:32:08 am
Keyword is 'ran'.Your first link talks about legal action against a campaign that, apparently, literally took the money and ran, then lied about it. That's very different from That Which Sleeps.
::)
But hey, I'm no lawyer or anything.
Seriously though, ya'll should just go ahead and sue him if ya'll really think it should be done.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 20, 2018, 10:57:01 am
Keyword is 'ran'.Your first link talks about legal action against a campaign that, apparently, literally took the money and ran, then lied about it. That's very different from That Which Sleeps.
::)
But hey, I'm no lawyer or anything.
Seriously though, ya'll should just go ahead and sue him if ya'll really think it should be done.
Yeah, exactly. The big thing was that the creator spent a year and a half saying production delays were happening, he's working, etc. But in reality he used it to finance an unrelated move, projects completely unrelated to the project, and other definitively-unrelated things. The creator didn't even try, essentially.
The videos alone are proof Josh has done *something*. The UI change between the Kickstarter and the videos shows a lot of work just on its own.
Post by: Serenseven on March 20, 2018, 11:20:56 am
Damiac, you are missing the point: There are those of us who long ago made peace with the fact that our money is gone, and are uninterested in revenge or even justice. It's a sunk cost to me, spent over 3-1/2 years ago. What I want instead is to ensure that if Josh does not finish the game, someone gets the opportunity to do so instead of TWS disappearing forever. That someone could be a publisher; it could be an open source community; hell if he wanted to give it to me as the third-most-involved person in the project behind himself and Fenicks, I'd take it, if only to be a caretaker for it until I could find it a more suitable home.
Whether TWS arose in fraudulent circumstances or not is simply irrelevant to this line of reasoning.
Suppose as a hypothetical that there is no working AI behind these latest videos, that this is still a scripted exercise. There is still, at minimum, a very pretty UI interface in Unity, a truckload of lore and flavor text, a metric fuckton of art and sound assets, at least some mechanism (the Locations' stats vary from turn to turn, Challenges progress and resolve, so something minimal is going on there even if the main AI is absent), and enough remaining discussions and posts from Josh to the official forums and elsewhere to determine how the game was intended to work.
It doesn't matter whether Josh created these things with a pure heart or with nefarious motives. The fact is, they demonstrably exist, and someone who had all these things, and knew how to code the AI, could finish the game. It might take a very long time, depending on whether it was an individual coder with a day job working on TWS on the side (which for all we know might be the current state of TWS) or whether an actual publisher got involved and threw a lot of resources at it.
Suing Josh would instead tie all these assets up in court. What happens then I do not know, but I do know while they're trapped Josh likely wouldn't be able to give or sell them to anyone, and it's unlikely he'd work on the game while waging a court battle over it. So at the bare minimum, suing him will only delay the game at best, and (more likely) finish off any chance of it ever existing as a finished product at worst.
So it's better - at least for backers more interested in maximizing the chance the game eventually exists in some form than in getting revenge/justice - to simply wait and see what happens, go on about our lives in the lengthy intervals between videos, and scrutinize said videos (or not) as they do appear as our own level of interest moves us (or not).
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 11:46:44 am
You want whatever you can get out of this project, and believe trying to reclaim your lost money would interfere with that. Fine, although I think you'd do just as well just taking the various loose descriptions of a game and making your own. But neither of us knows how many 'assets' exist for this game, so no real point arguing that further.
Your position is fine. You're entitled to it, after all. But you're not here telling people who are annoyed at what happened to "Get over it" and "Technically he's allowed to just take the money as long as he posts something once every 3 years"
So yeah, you point out the duality in the backers. Some want whatever they can get of "That which sleeps" and some don't want this guy to get away with fraud, and as you point out they might have conflicting goals. You explained your position logically, attacked nobody, that's fine. It's better than fine really, it's the epitome of what this whole 'internet' thing could do for large scale discussions. There should be a discussion between people like you and people who want some measure of justice. You people are the only relevant parties at this point.
The people who want to tell people that they aren't entitled to anything are just flat wrong, as spelled out by Kickstarter itself, as implied by the 'reward tier' structure, and as made obvious by the fact that it's how this whole economy thing has always worked. Pay money for stuff, get stuff. No stuff? Gimme my money back. The fraud is just extra icing on the breach of contract cake.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 20, 2018, 11:49:56 am
Post by: Retropunch on March 20, 2018, 11:59:34 am
To add to it though, Kickstarter DOES have risks. It's investment - you have no idea what the final project will look like or if it'll make it. 9% of all projects don't deliver what they're supposed to when they're funded (https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment). That's quite a big number statistically. If the money was so precious to you in the first place, you shouldn't have put it in an investment scheme - you should have waited till it came out. Whilst it's a tired cliche - it's true.
Treat it as a sunk cost and a lesson on investment, don't try (and 99% fail) to exact revenge just to teach him a lesson. That lesson has been learned - he'll never get a kickerstarter going again, never get a job in the industry and it'll probably haunt him for the rest of his business life.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 12:29:08 pm
...It's investment - you have no idea what the final project will look like or if it'll make it. 9% of all projects don't deliver what they're supposed to when they're funded (https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment). That's quite a big number statistically. If the money was so precious to you in the first place, you shouldn't have put it in an investment scheme - you should have waited till it came out. Whilst it's a tired cliche - it's true.
It's not an investment. https://www.harvestreturns.com/blog/2017/7/25/how-equity-crowdfunding-is-different-from-kickstarter (https://www.harvestreturns.com/blog/2017/7/25/how-equity-crowdfunding-is-different-from-kickstarter)
Quote
There are two major types of crowdfunding: donation-based crowdfunding like Kickstarter or GoFundMe, and investment, or equity crowdfunding.
Try to remember, this game took pre-orders as well, so while I don't think your kickstarter argument holds water, it's also kind of irrelevant. But here's kickstarter's position on whether the creator owes the backers anything:
Quote
When a project is successfully funded, the creator is responsible for completing the project and fulfilling each reward. Their fundamental obligation to backers is to finish all the work that was promised. Once a creator has done so, theyve fulfilled their obligation to their backers.
At the same time, backers must understand that Kickstarter is not a store. When you back a project, youre helping to create something new not ordering something that already exists. Theres a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised. If a creator is absolutely unable to complete the project and fulfill rewards, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to a satisfying conclusion for their backers.
So kickstarter's position is, if you get the money, you are responsible to deliver what you said you would. If it turns out to be literally impossible, you must work together with the backers to find a way to bring the project to a satisfying conclusion. No mention of going radio silent for years, oddly enough.
Treat it as a sunk cost and a lesson on investment, don't try (and 99% fail) to exact revenge just to teach him a lesson. That lesson has been learned - he'll never get a kickerstarter going again, never get a job in the industry and it'll probably haunt him for the rest of his business life.
No. Instead treat it as a guy committing fraud, and if you're interested in reducing fraud, or recovering maybe a portion of what you were defrauded out of, maybe try to pursue legal options like talking to the Attorney General of your state (This is free). Complain to kickstarter, pointing out how the guy lied(This is free too).
Nobody at all is telling people to spend their own money, so I don't know what exactly you're saying has a 99% chance of failing, or even what succeeding or failing would mean in this context. I know you have 100% chance to recover none of your money if you do not try to, which seems to be your position.
It's not that the 30 dollars or whatever people backed this for is "So precious to them" more than not being robbed without recourse is. You instead should take this as a lesson on the existence of legal remedies and the responsibilities of people who commit fraud and fail to perform their duties.
Post by: Cruxador on March 20, 2018, 12:34:53 pm
I mean, it's sort of forgetting what kickstarter is supposed to be. All this money making stuff is basically ancillary to the original purpose, which is funding something that otherwise wouldn't be funded. It's getting used for big business but that's really a side thing that happens to have a lot of money changing hands. I absolutely agree that it's not a sound financial investment, but that's really not what it's for in the first place. Like investing in crypto currency or any other investment that isn't sound, you shouldn't put in money that you're not okay with losing.QuoteIf, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project? It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns. Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.QFT
As for entrepreneurial opportunities that involve the potential for great reward without direct financial risk, those aren't rare and in fact I've benefited from that kind of thing myself. The balancing factor is generally that you have to invest a fair amount of your time and effort to realize the rewards. I don't think there's a reasonable argument to be made that Josh hasn't done that.
Post by: Zangi on March 20, 2018, 12:38:54 pm
Round 12: 'this is totally fraud' versus 'meh, he fucked up'
Anyone switching sides has already done so long ago.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 12:54:16 pm
There's really no room for debate whether it was fraud. He claimed something: "I have working prototype of fun game" to aid in his fundraising to create "Fun game". He gave descriptions of playthroughs of "Fun game". However, "Working prototype of fun game" has failed to surface in all this time, proving "I have working prototype of fun game" was a lie.
If you tell a lie to aid in fundraising, you are committing fraud. Even if you fully intend to do everything you say you will, it's still fraud, because you lied. If he instead said "I have these ideas for a fun game" then he probably would have gotten a lot less backing, but he wouldn't have committed fraud.
Imagine, if you will, that I tell a bunch of investment bankers that I have invented a tablet that you put into a gallon of water and it turns into a gallon of gasoline, then went on to describe various instances of myself using said tablet on water to get gasoline to power my car. Imagine then I claimed I just need some seed money to make some pretty designs for packaging and for initial distribution, and asked for $100,000.
Imagine then, that these investors gave me the money, because holy crap of course this is going to make tons of money.
Imagine next, that every time they asked me for a demonstration of my tablet I just kept coming up with weird excuses, and they never ever got to see any water turned to gasoline. Finally they find out I never had any such tablet, and that I've instead used their money to try to invent the tablet I claimed I already had.
You know what happens next? I go to jail for fraud. I owe the investors their money back, plus all sorts of penalties. If I already spent the money trying to create the tablet, it doesn't matter, I still owe it, and it will be taken from me one way or another.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 20, 2018, 12:58:45 pm
However, "Working prototype of fun game" has failed to surface in all this time, proving "I have working prototype of fun game" was a lie.I do not think that is how proof works.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 01:09:45 pm
OK, maybe "proving" was a bit strong. Maybe I should have said "Making it blatantly logically obvious" because there is a tiny chance I suppose that the above paragraph is true and Chris is actually so insane that he has the game and just isn't giving it to anyone. Are you telling me that's the version of reality you believe in?
Post by: Zangi on March 20, 2018, 01:12:26 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 20, 2018, 01:19:57 pm
Post by: Lapoleon on March 20, 2018, 01:20:57 pm
Damiac, we have heard everything you've had to say again and again. If you want to talk about Kickstarter that's fine, but do it another thread, you have no stake in the game so it's weird seeing you make such a big deal out of it.
As Sean says, we either get something or not. The only thing to do now is just wait and see.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 20, 2018, 01:25:24 pm
But I'll admit, you railing so hard against a project you're not monetarily invested in, without even knowing the names of the two people involved, is amusing.
Post by: nenjin on March 20, 2018, 01:25:43 pm
Quote
As Sean says, we either get something or not. The only thing to do now is just wait and see.
Or actually file complaints against them instead of just railing here about it. That, along with new videos, would be a thread update worth reading.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 01:36:30 pm
While my railing against a project I'm not involved in may seem amusing to you, imagine how the railing against people annoyed that this guy stole their money must perplex a lot of people. But I can see there's no point in talking about it here, because there's 2-3 determined people who will just flood out any logic and facts on the topic. Apparently out of a selfish desire to maybe someday have some level of access to assets that may or may not exist.
Fine. I give up. But don't give up on yourselves! While insanity has won the day here, maybe one day reason and logic will triumph. Just, apparently, not today. Not here. Instead keep blaming the backers for just giving the guy too much money and making him promise things he couldn't deliver. It's those goddamn entitled consumers again... wanting what they paid for...
e. Hahaha, I was just reading the kickstarter page. Last update: From November 20th, 2017
Quote
Going forward I will be posting a video every week until release, please keep your eyes on the YouTube channel for updates as I move forward. I understand the healthy skepticism you may feel towards that statement and respect it.
Weird. I mean, I guess we can't prove he didn't post 17 videos and forget to link any of them anywhere or tell anyone about it...
Here's the excerpt from the original kickstarter. This is a quote directly from Chris:
Quote
That Which Sleeps has been in development for over a year and has been entirely self funded up to this point. We have a stable working game engine and what we feel is a fun and engaging concept, we just lack the art resources to bring the visuals to the next level.
We have a full time coder and all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented. We do not, however, have an in house artist - so we'd be using your funds primarily to cover graphic updates, and animation. We think with responsible use of your funds we can overhaul several of the major art assets - including portraits, heros, and agent sprites & animation.
The original text can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/description)
Do you honestly believe this is true? All the major game systems were in place at the start of this project? They had a stable working game engine? They primarily needed funds for graphic updates and animation?
It isn't true that the only thing you can do is to wait and see. People saying that are either misinformed or lying to you. Contact the FTC, file a complaint, contact your AG, these are all free. If you don't want to, don't. If you don't want other people to do that, admit that's what you're doing and stop obfuscating.
And remember: The version of reality that the defenders of this project in this thread apparently believe is that Josh had, and therefore has the working game prototype he described, so in fact he has the MVP he could ship out to you. Right now, you could be playing That Which Sleeps. Josh is just such a perfectionist he won't give it to you. Josh is such a perfectionist that he's not doing the thing that instantly gets legal responsibility off his back, even though he says it's affecting him personally in a bad way.
What I'm railing against is that insane delusion, that you keep pushing onto people with legitimate complaints. Stop playing white knight for Josh, and maybe people will stop posting facts that contradict the bizarre defenses you keep putting out for him. You've seen this argument play out a million times because there's one objective reality and you keep going "Nuh-uh". There isn't an argument with two sides happening here, there is one argument, and then there's some people running through humming circus music so loud you can't hear the argument.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 20, 2018, 02:29:46 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 02:57:28 pm
Feds: "Hey! You abandoned this! You gotta pay that money back"
Josh: "What?!? No I didn't. In fact, I was just about to release a video proving I've been working on this!" *Releases video showing no gameplay*
Feds: "Oh... ok, I guess you're still working on it then"
Repeat forever.
By the way, how much money would you need to put out a half baked youtube video once every 3 months? If you give me 1 million dollars today, I'll make you the best game ever. Every feature ever will be in it. It will never ever release, but I will produce a video every 3 months showing something vaguely game shaped. After all, I'm going to keep working on it, it can't be a scam!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 20, 2018, 04:13:37 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 20, 2018, 04:45:19 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 20, 2018, 05:01:11 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 05:04:57 pm
It's hard to write circus music, but that's my attempt.
Contact the FTC, there is a way to get your money back, or at least try. Nobody has the right to steal your money.
OK guys, quick, spam this off the page as fast as you can.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 20, 2018, 05:06:08 pm
Listen. There's no game yet, maybe ever. There's no way to get your money back. Why do we have to have all this much-ado-about-nothing? There's really nothing to discuss again, nor has there been frankly. Let's just let it go.I agree with you, but people have every right to be angry about losing money. It's my opinion that if you're holding a grudge 3 years later about a lost sum of money then it wasn't money you should have spent, but I recognize that some people can be angry about anything and everything, even things which seem inconsequential to me.
At this point we're just rehashing old arguments and people are venting angrily. No new information has come up other than the two videos, there is still no proof either way on this matter. It's evident that Josh is still working on something, even if he's doing something as idiotic as Damiac suggested, making a few videos to keep people at bay. I doubt that, seems like more work than actually making a game, but whatever. Could be? I have no evidence to the contrary
Contact the FTC, there is a way to get your money back, or at least try. Nobody has the right to steal your money.There you go again. Nobody stole your money, or anyone's money, regarding this kickstarter.
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 20, 2018, 06:15:47 pm
I agree with the majority of Damiac's arguments, but I want to just explicitly point out, whether you decide to try to get your money back or not is completely your personal choice which no-one else has any sway on. Trying to get people to decide one way or another is something both sides of this argument are guilty of.
Also, there might be some additional circumstances that are unknown to us that may explain why the developer didn't release the prototype of the game, since I agree with Damiac that not doing so while being under such intense pressure seems very strange, if he indeed does have the prototype. But what if he had it before, but doesn't any longer? What if he could get into trouble if he released the prototype? Somehow I feel this is somewhat related to his business partner leaving. Perhaps they were brought some code or other assets into the game, which they licensed to the developer, but when they left they terminated the license. That would mean that either the developer has to release the game with the no-longer-licensed assets and face legal retribution, or has to somehow replace those assets in order for the game to work. Maybe that's what he was doing this entire time.
This is obviously just one possibility of many that would explain the absence of the game. Or, of course, it could be a fraud after all.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 20, 2018, 10:59:03 pm
1. We're discussing highly subjective and/or technical concepts regarding largely unknown factors: The moral imperatives of the creator assuming the following chain of events, how a lawyer followed by a jury would perceive a civil action based on the following evidence, and so on.
2. Largely because of #1, people tend to switch seamlessly between what's morally acceptable, what's legally infeasible to prosecute, what they personally want to happen, etc etc without specifying which category they or anyone else is operating in, resulting in a lot of talking past each other and repeating the same arguments over and over and over because for some strange reason the other guy doesn't get it and just keeps repeating his argument over and over and over.
3. Largely because of #2, but also heavily due to #1, the fact that we keep doing this, and the base drama of the situation, everyone tends to get really angry and/or dismissive. Not surprisingly, this tends to magnify #2 into screaming at each other about fraud and entitlement, and hastening everyone's general conclusion that this is not a productive conversation.
So... if you want to continue discussing this, I'd advise defining your terms more clearly. We seem to keep stumbling into infinite loops when you don't.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 21, 2018, 04:39:11 am
Its not about the money as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned this was very much a scam, Kickstarters are marketed as preorders, and saying that they are not and its just a donation is both sleazy rule-wriggling... and likely illegal. In fact some of the articles Daimiac linked mention that KS is changing its TOS because of recent rulings addressing this kind of problem.
Also, early on someone was saying that people complaining about what happened make him angry. Well, what makes ME angry is people telling me it's unreasonable to complain about blatant theft, that what those two guys from KDG did was normal, and that KSs are actually donations and I shouldn't feel "entitled" to get anything out of them (no. just no. If I want to make "donations" I donate to the NYSCF, or MSF, or "Save the Whales". Not to random internet guys who may or may not provide a game in return. Kickstarters are clearly transactional, and the fact they are failing at that showcases why its a good idea to avoid that business model like the plague)
Post by: Ludorum Rex on March 21, 2018, 06:14:37 am
Eh, I was skeptical even at KS at the Early Access price hike so I stuck at the 10 bucks tier. I assure you I make far more than 10 per hour :P
Its not about the money as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned this was very much a scam, Kickstarters are marketed as preorders, and saying that they are not and its just a donation is both sleazy rule-wriggling... and likely illegal. In fact some of the articles Daimiac linked mention that KS is changing its TOS because of recent rulings addressing this kind of problem.
Also, early on someone was saying that people complaining about what happened make him angry. Well, what makes ME angry is people telling me it's unreasonable to complain about blatant theft, that what those two guys from KDG did was normal, and that KSs are actually donations and I shouldn't feel "entitled" to get anything out of them (no. just no. If I want to make "donations" I donate to the NYSCF, or MSF, or "Save the Whales". Not to random internet guys who may or may not provide a game in return. Kickstarters are clearly transactional, and the fact they are failing at that showcases why its a good idea to avoid that business model like the plague)
Well, to be fair there is a "Risks" section on Kickstarters (although in this case it was either overly optimistic and/or misleading). But the fact remains that Kickstarters are considered by many (and perhaps by some legal jurisdictions, that's not for me to say) to be pre-orders and/or pseudo-investments. Anyone who gets into crowdfunding needs to be acutely aware of this - backers will be split among different perceptions of what they can expect to receive and how much risk they accept. This is why I would in almost no circumstance use crowdfunding for one of my game or software development projects. I must admit the temptation was strong in regards to my current project, but I knowing I have significant risks when it comes to how and what I deliver, I thought it both risky to my mental well-being and unethical towards potential backers. I think Early Access is a much more ethical way to go about such things, even if the potential for funding is much lower. I also dislike how crowdfunding often fragments the player base into tiers with different levels of access to basic community features.
As for this project, it continues to confuse and bewilder, stirring back to life in a most surprising fashion. I hesitate to badmouth a fellow developer, because who knows what's been going on behind the scenes, but I can understand how some backers might feel misled by elements of the campaign. I backed this being skeptical that the entire vision would be realized, and I don't have any particular issues with not getting anything in return. My meager contribution is not worth any actual stress or shame for the developers. But that's my choice, and I respect that other backers may feel differently.
In my opinion - when doing crowdfunding don't trust anything, don't expect to get anything and don't believe any claims you cannot validate through actual interaction with objects or software. And as a small or rookie indie game developer, resist the temptation of crowdfunding. Although I think the time of readily available indie crowdfunding might have passed as skepticism and disappointment has taken hold. The failure of Shadows Behind the Throne to get funded could indicate so.
I hope Josh manages to put a game out there as some point, and get back to interacting with the community. There are some loyal and great people waiting for a game, and it would be good for him to get something released - even if it's not what the initial pitch promised. There will always be angry people on the internet, but niche gamers are much kinder than their reputation, and even if the truth is that there are 10 years of development left, and that the result will not be paradigm-shattering AI and storytelling, he'd still be better off being open about that. Isolation is rarely healthy or productive.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 21, 2018, 06:57:01 am
Post by: Ludorum Rex on March 21, 2018, 07:13:17 am
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 07:29:07 am
Anyway, I made whatever point it is I was trying to make I think, and I see no reason to go around this merry-go-round again. Sorry if I got overly heated, it was out of frustration due to an apparent failure to communicate and not intended to be personal. I'll get off this ride before I attract the wrath of the toad.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on March 21, 2018, 08:36:28 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 21, 2018, 11:21:36 am
Post by: Ludorum Rex on March 21, 2018, 12:32:39 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 12:43:54 pm
This is all to do with pre-orders, there's really no fuzziness there as far as I know. With kickstarter things get a bit fuzzier, although it looks like the courts are sort of looking at them as the same thing as pre-orders at this point.
Post by: lordcooper on March 21, 2018, 02:44:10 pm
You can't get blood from a stone.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 21, 2018, 02:49:54 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 21, 2018, 03:25:01 pm
It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 21, 2018, 05:11:35 pm
It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.
The claim was they have a game almost ready which just need polish (which can be proven quite easily because itīs still in their Kickstarter campaign and they havenīt bothered to update that or their homepage.
The fact is that no game was delivered till now and that we have word from one part of the company (Fenicks) that at least one gameplay video was completely faked. The fact that preorders were made are easy too proof through paypal and my receipt I still have saved in my mails. So yeah, I donīt see a problem in proofing this at all.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 21, 2018, 05:37:20 pm
It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.
read any of josh's stories recounting a playable and advanced game
do you think they are real and true accounts of a game he made and is playing?
Post by: AlStar on March 21, 2018, 08:46:30 pm
do you think they are real and true accounts of a game he made and is playing?While I'm certainly not going to go as far to say "absolutely," since that would be silly without actually standing behind him while he played a game; given what we've seen out of the dev, I wouldn't say it's entirely unbelievable that he did actually have a prototype game that he played, which produced those stories, but which might have been terribly unstable, or which had other 'major' flaws (at least in the dev's eyes), which precluded him from distributing it to backers.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 22, 2018, 04:13:26 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2018, 04:48:19 am
The burden of proof is on him, then. It's as simple as producing the prototype.Not if he ain't the one wanting to sue for fraud on sketchy claims.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 08:03:15 am
I swear, the theranos device definitely worked last week! You can't prove it didn't used to work and then suddenly stopped working!
Here's another good one. How can you be sure that although he only ever distributed green food coloring, the guy didn't really have a secret formula to turn water to gasoline?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pill)
And before you guys break out your credit cards to run and back these, they were scams, prosecuted by the government already.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 22, 2018, 08:07:08 am
The burden of proof is on him, then. It's as simple as producing the prototype.Not if he ain't the one wanting to sue for fraud on sketchy claims.
i've been resisting getting all legal scholarship on yall who keep saying things like this, because it's tricky to explain.
yes, it's absolutely true to say that the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence.
but if someone files a complaint that says, "this is what happened, these specific communications were made at these specific times and in these specific messages, and based on these facts i believe i was defrauded, and that the defendant is concealing the truth," then as long as those grounds are reasonable, and, most importantly, based on further facts not available to the plaintiff, then the burden shifts to the defendant to produce evidence to the contrary.
edit:
Jeez, in your world how does anyone ever get in trouble for fraud? Are they all just really, really stupid? Like, in your mind, is it not a scam unless the guy writes a signed and certified letter admitting it was a fraud? In your mind, can he just say "I lost that prototype it totally existed" and be off the hook?
I swear, the theranos device definitely worked last week! You can't prove it didn't used to work and then suddenly stopped working!
Here's another good one. How can you be sure that although he only ever distributed green food coloring, the guy didn't really have a secret formula to turn water to gasoline?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pill)
And before you guys break out your credit cards to run and back these, they were scams, prosecuted by the government already.
yeah, this is pretty much the layman's way of explaining the exception to the general rule that you have to allege and prove facts. if your case is based on the premise that "someone is actively concealing the truth" then you just have to show the circumstances and why your belief that there's fraud is reasonable.
Post by: E. Albright on March 22, 2018, 09:30:45 am
And even if someone were to file suit, software development is a whole lot fuzzier than the straightforward engineering KS suits cited above. What constitutes a "fully implemented engine" for an under-specified project can and would be a matter of serious (and not perforce bad faith) dispute.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 09:43:41 am
I mean... if you guys think that software exists, don't you think he should send a copy to you, so you have something while you wait for the finished product? And then that would shut this whole conversation down instantly. The initially described game sounded fun, I'd give it a try.
Post by: E. Albright on March 22, 2018, 11:09:01 am
IIRC, he claimed he had a fully implemented engine. An engine is not necessarily (or even generally) a game; it's the underlying framework on which the game is built. An engine supports functionality, but does not implement it, and that's quite aside from content/art/etc. On actually fleshing out the features and adding content, systems that seemed to be fully functional can turn out to be bug-ridden garbage if you don't have proper testing in place... and no matter what they think of their motives, I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest KDG had anything even vaguely resembling good enough software engineering to do incremental (let alone rigorous) testing.
IOW, it doesn't need to be about "perfectionism"; incompetence, underestimating the quality of their development, and backers/uninvolved bystanders like you reading more into what was said than you should have would be more than adequate to explain why they didn't ever release the "fully implemented engine".
(I also suspect you don't really get just how irrational a clinical anxiety disorder can make someone. Not being willing to release something incomplete/broken/whatever need not be about "perfectionism" and its implied "I'm too proud to do the right thing" undertones at all.)
Post by: ndkid on March 22, 2018, 11:09:57 am
Yeah, it would seem he could get out of that if he could provide software that performed as described in his pitch, even if it was bug ridden, ugly as hell, and not fun. Why he wouldn't send that out to give the backers something to play with is an interesting question (Not really of course, that software never existed). The claim of perfectionism rings a bit hollow considering the state of the 'mod tools' he distributed.So you are willing to stipulate that if Josh did possess an ugly, bug ridden, unfun prototype, then, despite the long, drawn out saga, he did not originally commit fraud (according to the pertinent US jurisdictions)? Would you further stipulate while you consider the likelihood of such a prototype having existed when the initial claims were made (I don't think it coming into existence after the fact would help his case) extremely low, there has not been evidence to the public that rises to the level of "proof" as to its existence or non-existence? That we are assuming that, if it did exist, it would have been presented already?
I mean... if you guys think that software exists, don't you think he should send a copy to you, so you have something while you wait for the finished product? And then that would shut this whole conversation down instantly. The initially described game sounded fun, I'd give it a try.
I admit, I'm in the camp that finds the notion that Josh's behavior has been exceedingly unseemly impossible to dispute, the camp that finds the idea that Kickstarters gets its pound of flesh regardless of whether the project succeeds or not also unseemly, and the question of which of the KS projects that started out as intentional scams versus the ones that fail to deliver on their promises despite good intentions pretty irrelevant to my life (since I put money in expecting to get a thing and got no thing either way), so I'm mostly asking because I'm trying to make sure I understand everyone's priors.
Post by: nenjin on March 22, 2018, 12:34:39 pm
For example: every time someone writes "fraud", drink.
Every time someone writes "proof", drink.
Every time someone writes "working game", drink.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 12:38:51 pm
Post by: Rose on March 22, 2018, 12:42:19 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 22, 2018, 12:56:29 pm
Then everyone dies of liver failure and we can let the thread sink into obscurity again?
We're all about solutions 'round here.
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2018, 01:20:58 pm
I'm starting to think we need a drinking game revolving around the TWS thread. Might at least make the back and forth more interesting.That which sleeps yet does not dream
For example: every time someone writes "fraud", drink.
Every time someone writes "proof", drink.
Every time someone writes "working game", drink.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 01:22:03 pm
Yeah, it would seem he could get out of that if he could provide software that performed as described in his pitch, even if it was bug ridden, ugly as hell, and not fun. Why he wouldn't send that out to give the backers something to play with is an interesting question (Not really of course, that software never existed). The claim of perfectionism rings a bit hollow considering the state of the 'mod tools' he distributed.So you are willing to stipulate that if Josh did possess an ugly, bug ridden, unfun prototype, then, despite the long, drawn out saga, he did not originally commit fraud (according to the pertinent US jurisdictions)? Would you further stipulate while you consider the likelihood of such a prototype having existed when the initial claims were made (I don't think it coming into existence after the fact would help his case) extremely low, there has not been evidence to the public that rises to the level of "proof" as to its existence or non-existence? That we are assuming that, if it did exist, it would have been presented already?
I mean... if you guys think that software exists, don't you think he should send a copy to you, so you have something while you wait for the finished product? And then that would shut this whole conversation down instantly. The initially described game sounded fun, I'd give it a try.
I admit, I'm in the camp that finds the notion that Josh's behavior has been exceedingly unseemly impossible to dispute, the camp that finds the idea that Kickstarters gets its pound of flesh regardless of whether the project succeeds or not also unseemly, and the question of which of the KS projects that started out as intentional scams versus the ones that fail to deliver on their promises despite good intentions pretty irrelevant to my life (since I put money in expecting to get a thing and got no thing either way), so I'm mostly asking because I'm trying to make sure I understand everyone's priors.
Uh... yes I think. He outright said he had a working engine and modules, and also described playthroughs of the game as if they had actually happened. This is what my whole fraud allegation rests on. He (or the project) was unjustly enriched due to him lying about the existence of the risk of the game never being made.
Yeah, I think you got the rest of my position right. If he were to release said game, or game-like object, it would show such a thing existed. I suppose one could argue he lied about having it then made it, but that would be a hell of a lot harder to prove. In that case I'd say I was wrong about the fraud. The lack of proof of something's nonexistence is certainly not proof of its existence. It's literally impossible to prove it doesn't exist. However, if I accuse the dev of committing fraud, it becomes extremely easy for him to prove it does exist, by showing that it exists.
Finally, my assertion that I am so confident it doesn't exist, even though as I said it can't be proven, is based on a few things. Most obviously, lots of people are mad at him and think he committed fraud, and releasing it would make that go away. Also, he's demonstrated previously that he is perfectly willing to release barely working garbage to get the backers off his back (See the release of the 'mod tools'). His 'business partner' claims he was also fooled by Josh, and that he never saw a working game (Not that said business partner is exactly trustworthy himself).
So apparently lot being able to live up to your promises is the same as deliberate deception. Okay.If you're literally not going to read anything anyone else says, maybe just don't post. We've been over this like 3 or 4 times in just the last day...
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2018, 01:32:40 pm
Finally, my assertion that I am so confident it doesn't exist, even though as I said it can't be proven, is based on a few things. Most obviously, lots of people are mad at him and think he committed fraud, and releasing it would make that go away. Also, he's demonstrated previously that he is perfectly willing to release barely working garbage to get the backers off his back (See the release of the 'mod tools'). His 'business partner' claims he was also fooled by Josh, and that he never saw a working game (Not that said business partner is exactly trustworthy himself).I think you're underestimating his isolation. I think it's more likely that he is recoiling from criticism and community interaction than that he is so engaged with the community that the complaints of a relatively few people (I haven't seen fraud allegations in many of the vanishingly few places that this game is still discussed) to the extent that he lends them undue credence.
I think you might also consider that people aren't static vaccuums, and his releasing the mod tools didn't get a hugely positive reception or reduce complaints in the long run, so why would he repeat something that didn't work? On top of that, consider his feelings - why would he release something that's probably buggy and very underwhelming when he now has a vastly improved version that, from all appearances in his videos, at least basically functions? Anything it doesn't show many be entirely lacking, including some pretty fundamental stuff, but even what's in the videos is above the level of what he initially showed. So from his perspective, it's more sensible to just continue working on the game and have something better to release in the future. The fact that he does this very slowly is not necessarily related to that consideration.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 01:44:58 pm
Going off of what was presented, it seems more likely that what's happening is what appears to be happening. He made false claims to help get more backers, thinking he could accomplish what he claimed he had already done. He kept hitting roadblocks, and disappearing for long stretches of time. He occasionally resurfaces, promising weekly update videos, then vanishes again.
It sure looks like someone who lied about having a foundation to a game they thought they could make, couldn't make it, and are just doing the absolute bare minimum to avoid the appearance of having just abandoned the project.
Also, what ever happened with the other kickstarter he allegedly started in the meantime? I remember hearing something about that, but it was forever ago.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 22, 2018, 01:58:02 pm
You're very confidently assuming facts not even vaguely in evidence.
IIRC, he claimed he had a fully implemented engine. An engine is not necessarily (or even generally) a game;
you don't recall correctly.
he explicitly said "We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion."
So apparently lot being able to live up to your promises is the same as deliberate deception. Okay.
it's true, distinguishing mere breach of promise from fraud is a classic problem in law.
typically the elements of fraud are something like:
(1.) that the defendant made a representation,
(2.) as to a material fact,
(3.) which was false,
(4.) and known to be false by the defendant,
(5.) that the representation was made for the purpose of inducing the other party to rely upon it,
(6.) that the other party rightfully did so rely,
(7.) in ignorance of its falsity
(8.) to his injury
so the prima facie case for fraud here is something like, "Josh said there was already a working game (obviously material to the subject of if a game would ever be finished), and told all sorts of additional stories about things he had done this game, and there wasn't, and he hadn't. Josh knew there was no such game and that he had obviously never played this nonexistent game, yet he made all these false statements for the purpose of convincing people to back the KS. Maybe he intended to eventually make the game, but in September 2014, he knew he hadn't. Backers were within their rights to take these statements at face value, and certainly had no idea they were false. As a result they backed the KS and lost money."
There's nothing on its face unreasonable about this; it sets out the prima facie case for fraud, and all of the specifics that could be within the knowledge of the plaintiff at the outset of the suit.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 22, 2018, 02:01:29 pm
If you wanna "get all legal scholarship" on us all, you might wanna be a bit more accurate. Not all jurisdictions settle for preponderance of evidence as the standard for civil fraud cases, even in the US. The venue matters quite a lot.
True, I mostly handled fraud cases in federal bankruptcy court, where the burden is preponderance of the evidence. Grogan v. Garner, 498 U.S. 279 (1991).
Quote
And even if someone were to file suit, software development is a whole lot fuzzier than the straightforward engineering KS suits cited above. What constitutes a "fully implemented engine" for an under-specified project can and would be a matter of serious (and not perforce bad faith) dispute.
nothing relies on the "fully implemented engine" line.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 22, 2018, 02:06:08 pm
Quote
We have a full time coder and all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented. We do not, however, have an in house artist - so we'd be using your funds primarily to cover graphic updates, and animation.
Quote
Combined we have not just the critically important design and development experience to create a game of this scope, we also have the discipline to properly budget and execute in an efficient and timely manner. Mix that with the overwhelming passion we both have for creating innovative, fun games and we like to think you have a recipe for success
Quote
By waiting until we have a fully functional and working game engine we feel like we successfully mitigated the most common risks that many games on Kickstarter face. We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion.
just quoting interesting tidbits from the KS. Of note: he's claiming that A: he has a working game and B: he just needs to buy art assets.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 02:24:41 pm
The kickstarter does have trouble differentiating between 'What is' and 'What will be' though. I think this is mostly due to inexperience. That and the fact that they didn't anticipate people would be closely analyzing their choice of words in the future to determine fraud.
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 22, 2018, 02:28:52 pm
Also, there might be some additional circumstances that are unknown to us that may explain why the developer didn't release the prototype of the game, since I agree with Damiac that not doing so while being under such intense pressure seems very strange, if he indeed does have the prototype. But what if he had it before, but doesn't any longer? What if he could get into trouble if he released the prototype? Somehow I feel this is somewhat related to his business partner leaving. Perhaps they were brought some code or other assets into the game, which they licensed to the developer, but when they left they terminated the license. That would mean that either the developer has to release the game with the no-longer-licensed assets and face legal retribution, or has to somehow replace those assets in order for the game to work. Maybe that's what he was doing this entire time.
This is obviously just one possibility of many that would explain the absence of the game. Or, of course, it could be a fraud after all.
This is one of the big problems with this discussion -- everyone routinely forgets the other side's arguments, causing us to repeat the same thing over, and over, and over again. I think if we all just took stock and listed out all our arguments from the beginning of the conversation in order, with no repetitions, this discussion would have much more value.
I'll go first:
- The developer claimed he had a working prototype of this game, from the very beginning. This can be proven from public records and so is something we should all agree on.
- The developer has failed to produce anything of value, not even the working prototype he said he had, despite extreme pressure from his backers and the FTC. Also a given fact.
- This is evidence to the fact he did not in fact have the prototype, except if some additional factor (like the one I outlined above) is preventing him from releasing it.
- If he did not actually have the prototype when he launched his Kickstarter, then he would have committed fraud, since he would have released misleading information that affected the decisions of his backers.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 22, 2018, 02:33:11 pm
Working game does not mean being close to finished or that it only needs art assets. It means that they have the underlying structure completed and need to fill it out with additional content, which is why a quarter of their budget was laid out for further programming and development. Development which could have easily shown that their game did not work as well as they thought it did. The stretchgoals they reached also meant that this underlying structure needed to be redeveloped to accommodate them, which obviously required much more development time than anticipated.
Except that he also outright said, "all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented."
Quote
The kickstarter does have trouble differentiating between 'What is' and 'What will be' though. I think this is mostly due to inexperience. That and the fact that they didn't anticipate people would be closely analyzing their choice of words in the future to determine fraud.
lol, yes, he's such an inexperienced programmer and project manager that he doesn't know if it's true or not when he says things like "we have a working game" and "all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented."
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 02:44:14 pm
Let me put it this way. A working game would be a beta build of the Source engine with a collection of test maps and half-finished locations. This build has all of the major systems in place. It has maps to move around in, enemies to shoot and kill, damage you can suffer from, items to collect and so on. It should be obvious that this is not close to being a finished product like Half-Life 2. You can do the same things in both of them, but the beta build still needs further development before it can be released. This isn't even considering any issues or bugs that could be encountered or systems discarded near the end of development for being unfun.
Post by: Retropunch on March 22, 2018, 03:03:29 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 22, 2018, 03:04:55 pm
Major systems. Not all systems and not all of the content that makes a game a game.
Let me put it this way. A working game would be a beta build of the Source engine with a collection of test maps and half-finished locations. This build has all of the major systems in place. It has maps to move around in, enemies to shoot and kill, damage you can suffer from, items to collect and so on. It should be obvious that this is not close to being a finished product like Half-Life 2. You can do the same things in both of them, but the beta build still needs further development before it can be released. This isn't even considering any issues or bugs that could be encountered or systems discarded near the end of development for being unfun.
absolutely agreed! so then 300+ beta backers should have seen this beta. either then or in the 3.5 years since.
but they didn't. so it would be reasonable to infer that the product never existed, even in an unfinished beta or pre-beta state.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 03:17:24 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 03:28:35 pm
And everyone proceeded to simply ignore some of the points I made in my post.Also, there might be some additional circumstances that are unknown to us that may explain why the developer didn't release the prototype of the game, since I agree with Damiac that not doing so while being under such intense pressure seems very strange, if he indeed does have the prototype. But what if he had it before, but doesn't any longer? What if he could get into trouble if he released the prototype? Somehow I feel this is somewhat related to his business partner leaving. Perhaps they were brought some code or other assets into the game, which they licensed to the developer, but when they left they terminated the license. That would mean that either the developer has to release the game with the no-longer-licensed assets and face legal retribution, or has to somehow replace those assets in order for the game to work. Maybe that's what he was doing this entire time.
This is obviously just one possibility of many that would explain the absence of the game. Or, of course, it could be a fraud after all.
This is one of the big problems with this discussion -- everyone routinely forgets the other side's arguments, causing us to repeat the same thing over, and over, and over again. I think if we all just took stock and listed out all our arguments from the beginning of the conversation in order, with no repetitions, this discussion would have much more value.
I'll go first:
- The developer claimed he had a working prototype of this game, from the very beginning. This can be proven from public records and so is something we should all agree on.
- The developer has failed to produce anything of value, not even the working prototype he said he had, despite extreme pressure from his backers and the FTC. Also a given fact.
- This is evidence to the fact he did not in fact have the prototype, except if some additional factor (like the one I outlined above) is preventing him from releasing it.
- If he did not actually have the prototype when he launched his Kickstarter, then he would have committed fraud, since he would have released misleading information that affected the decisions of his backers.
As to your first part, I'd say if there are special weird circumstances preventing him from releasing said working game, the simple solution would be to just come out and say that. If the prototype was someone else's, then I don't think he had any right to claim he had a working game.
But yeah, I'd say you've distilled it down pretty well.
Usec, what you're saying reminds me a lot of a situation I got into when I was younger. Being stupid and naive, when a friend asked to borrow $1000 from me to put down as first/last month rent, I agreed, since he agreed to pay me back within 3 months.
3 months came and went, I received nothing. When I talked to him about it, he always said he was saving it up, and he wanted to pay me back all at once. I asked if he could just send me $50 a week or something, and he always said no, I want to pay it all back at once.
I think it's obvious, but I never did get that money back. One possibility is my friend just really weirdly wanted to pay a lump sum and nothing less. The other possibility is he made whatever excuses came to mind to get me off his back. You're saying maybe Josh isn't giving us that 50 bucks because he wants to save up all 1000, but I'm saying he's not giving us that 50 bucks because he doesn't have it, and he's never going to have 1000. If he's worried about disappointing the backers... this is a very strange way to avoid that. Look at the kickstarter comments, there's plenty of disappointed backers (And plenty of people calling it fraud too).
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 03:46:05 pm
For the record, I'm not defending Josh's behaviour afterwards or saying that he isn't completely in over his head. His actions are certainly something no developer should emulate. I just think that when he made the kickstarter he had a prototype which he believed he could make into a finished game in time. It's not fraud to have your predictions turn out false. Just shitty all around.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 05:16:42 pm
I just think that when he made the kickstarter he had a prototype which he believed he could make into a finished game in time. It's not fraud to have your predictions turn out false. Just shitty all around.
Quote from: Risks Section of kickstarter pitch
That Which Sleeps has been in development for over a year and has been entirely self funded up to this point. We have a stable working game engine and what we feel is a fun and engaging concept, we just lack the art resources to bring the visuals to the next level.
We have a full time coder and all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented. We do not, however, have an in house artist - so we'd be using your funds primarily to cover graphic updates, and animation. We think with responsible use of your funds we can overhaul several of the major art assets - including portraits, heros, and agent sprites & animation.
The original text can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/description
Quote
We have a stable working game engine
Quote
all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented
Quote
We do not, however, have an in house artist - so we'd be using your funds primarily to cover graphic updates, and animation. We think with responsible use of your funds we can overhaul several of the major art assets - including portraits, heros, and agent sprites & animation.Where's the room for "He believed he had a prototype"? Let the backers have that stable working game engine with the successfully implemented major game systems. All that the funds were primarily needed for artwork.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 05:19:08 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 05:33:54 pm
I did talk about that already. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg7716685#msg7716685) So I'm just going to link my posts instead of repeating myself. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.msg7716716#msg7716716)Good point, your eventual conclusion is:
Quote
I don't think it's reasonable to infer that the product ever existed from the fact that it was never released or shown to the backers.
I do think it's reasonable to make that inference. People are accusing him of fraud, that would prove it's not fraud. He's not acting in good faith by not reassuring people that he did not in fact commit fraud, when he easily could. It is a very reasonable assumption that the described software doesn't exist.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 23, 2018, 11:36:44 am
Post by: Jopax on March 23, 2018, 11:39:53 am
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 23, 2018, 11:56:05 am
I'd suggest instead of endless arguments, that those who are so convinced they've got him dead to rights on fraud should go and bring a law suite. It seems like you believe it's an easy win, so I'd suggest you do it and get your money back/the money of others back.
I think we are sure itīs a certain win, not an easy one. As it stands such a legal battle can take a lot more money than any of us put into the project and it would take weeks, possibly months or years to complete that trial. So while sure to win, still not worth the effort.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 11:57:30 am
Quote
So while sure to win, still not worth the effort.
But don't let that stop anyone from armchair lawyering the thread ad nauseam.
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2018, 11:59:27 am
man, really glad i came over here to read about what's in the new videos and got ten fucking pages of people saying the same two things over and overI mean, I watched the videos and couldn't really say specifically what's in them. It's more or less just and overview of a few of the overwhelmingly many numbers and features in a single PoI.
Post by: Zangi on March 23, 2018, 12:11:33 pm
My opinion: just put up the lawsuit or stfu
Ain't gonna find someone to do it for you.
Post by: Damiac on March 23, 2018, 01:00:21 pm
Every time the discussion comes to the obvious and same conclusion it's fraud, you guys suddenly decide you don't want to talk about it, and spend the rest of the page talking about it, until all that's left on the front page is you guys complaining about people discussing that it's fraud.
Seriously, you "Stop talking about it" guys haven't said a damn thing since the videos were posted. Why don't you follow your own advice? Rather than drowning out the logic, then repeating the same false arguments again to start the circle over.
Your arguments have been shown to be false repeatedly. It costs nothing to contact AG or FTC, lawyers will take cases for a percentage of the winnings if they think it will win.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 23, 2018, 01:02:28 pm
fuck off
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 01:42:39 pm
Quote
Every time the discussion comes to the obvious and same conclusion it's fraud
You come to the same conclusion. Then badger some here because we don't agree with you or agree that it's obvious or clear cut.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 23, 2018, 01:58:53 pm
Its interesting to see the goalpost shift. TWS hopefuls said thst he never said he had a working game, and then when it was shown that it was (and is!) in the kickstarter, the rationale has shifted to "Working game doesnt actually mean a working game"(?!?!?)
Post by: Jopax on March 23, 2018, 02:00:16 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 23, 2018, 02:19:00 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 23, 2018, 02:29:42 pm
I can tell you that I personally find it annoying that skepticism about this game is disregarded as a conspiracy theory when four years after the fact we have nothing but hot air.I don't think anyone's treating fraud as a conspiracy theory. Its certainly a possibility, the issue is that there are other possibilities that people think make more sense.
What's interesting is that The Mandate thread just got necroed, and it appears to be an example of a funded kickstarter that failed to deliver anything, yet there's not a 150 page debate over that game being fraudulent.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 23, 2018, 02:37:30 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 23, 2018, 03:04:45 pm
What's interesting is that The Mandate thread just got necroed, and it appears to be an example of a funded kickstarter that failed to deliver anything, yet there's not a 150 page debate over that game being fraudulent.
Back when Joe was still around and Josh was just entering his hermit phase, there was one guy who was convinced the game was a scam. Like irrationally convinced. The official word was that the game would be entering the backer beta once the AI was sorted out and nothing alarming had happened yet. The delays were explained by the stretch goals that needed accommodating and everyone presumed that Josh clamming up was due to him working hard. So you had this one guy ranting about how the kickstarter was a scam while everyone else was feeling charitable or wary as appropriate.
Fast forward a year or so. Joe has left over a lack of communication, Josh has released barely-functioning tools to save face, so on and so forth. Suddenly the guy saying it's a scam doesn't look so crazy. Maybe he's right now. At the same another school of thought forms which is convinced that the game isn't a scam. Why would Josh put in all of that time and effort to string everyone along for 2+ years after he has already gotten their money?
The argument proceeds to devolve from there. That Which Sleeps didn't deliver nothing quietly. It did so with much fanfare and noise.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2018, 03:15:44 pm
I can tell you that I personally find it annoying that skepticism about this game is disregarded as a conspiracy theory when four years after the fact we have nothing but hot air.What's interesting is that The Mandate thread just got necroed, and it appears to be an example of a funded kickstarter that failed to deliver anything, yet there's not a 150 page debate over that game being fraudulent.
different details, different reactions
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 03:20:11 pm
If I were wont to blow my top over it, I could have called it a scam long before now. While a second Kickstarter and and a seemingly endless dev cycle did raise my eyebrows (and I did not back the second Kickstarter), I didn't start shouting fraud. I'm still waiting on that game, which has taken FOR FUCKING EVER to even approach something called a release.
I'm way more inclined to believe KDG overestimated both their own completeness and their own skills, than believing the far less likely scenario that he creates fake updates just to keep the FTC off his back. TWS is like the 9/11 Truther conspiracy of Kickstarter. The more simple explanation is that they're in over their head and are still trying to dig themselves out.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 23, 2018, 03:26:10 pm
It's too bad because it seemed like a solid concept/game - guess they suffered from overscope.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2018, 03:30:12 pm
I compare TWS to Kickstarters like Rogue-U. The game which was trying to make a nostalgia driven Quest For Glory clone, has had to run a second Kickstarter to finish the game, has only pushed out an alpha to backers in the last year and has shifted goal posts multiple times in the last 5 years.
If I were wont to blow my top over it, I could have called it a scam long before now. While a second Kickstarter and and a seemingly endless dev cycle did raise my eyebrows (and I did not back the second Kickstarter), I didn't start shouting fraud. I'm still waiting on that game, which has taken FOR FUCKING EVER to even approach something called a release.
I'm way more inclined to believe KDG overestimated both their own completeness and their own skills, than believing the far less likely scenario that he creates fake updates just to keep the FTC off his back. TWS is like the 9/11 Truther conspiracy of Kickstarter. The more simple explanation is that they're in over their head and are still trying to dig themselves out.
well, i hope you're right
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 23, 2018, 03:32:25 pm
Apparently, people are incapable of doing that, because everyone has continued to completely forget or disregard their opponents' arguments, causing everything to repeat again. Many, many times.
And no, it's not just Damiac doing it. Every single one of you is doing it. nenjin, you did it just now, by ignoring the fact that the developer claimed he had a working prototype from the very beginning, which he could've released at any time. Rogue-U didn't make that claim.
Honestly, at this point the discussion is completely pointless. Everything that's being said has been said before. If you want to fill a couple hundred more pages with inane arguments you are free to do so, but I'm bowing out.
Post by: Damiac on March 23, 2018, 03:38:59 pm
Bleep bloop is right.
Here, you can follow the actual discussion this way, and ignore the noise between:
I trimmed out redundancy, noise posts and non-arguments, but if someone thinks I missed something of substance, let me know. I think if you follow the conversation that takes place in these linked posts, you can see where to continue the actual conversation from here, if you're so interested. Bloop Bleep's post in particular lays things out pretty well and neutrally.
Quite honestly, I should link this very post at the end, to really capture the nature of this thread. That way you can keep going around and around forever. I have to admit, the metagame has incredible replay value.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 04:12:06 pm
Quote
And no, it's not just Damiac doing it. Every single one of you is doing it. nenjin, you did it just now, by ignoring the fact that the developer claimed he had a working prototype from the very beginning, which he could've released at any time. Rogue-U didn't make that claim.
Because no developer has ever overestimated their product before, right? And especially not when there's a financial incentive behind it. While Rogue-U didn't say they had a working prototype they could release tomorrow, they DID say they could complete the game with their initial Kickstarter. Then lo and behold, that's wrong. They overestimated their skills, underestimated the amount of work it would take, project scope changed, team members changed, they rebranded the project in a second Kickstarter, yadda yadda sisboomba. Fraud? Or just being shitty at estimates?
The thing is, people claiming fraud are claiming KDG acted with malice. That their intent was to defraud, from the outset. Malice is one of the hardest things to prove because it's about what was in someone's heart when they did something. You can demonstrably prove their initial claims were false. Why were they false though? Because he deliberately misrepresented the situation or because he overestimated his progress? If you can prove that, I'd like to see it. I think we all would. We'd all like to know if he acted with malice. But that's the harder claim to prove. No one is disagreeing he was wrong in the initial Kickstarter. That his ideas about how the AI was supposed to work were fundamentally flawed. What we're disagreeing with is that he is, without a shadow of a doubt, a fraud. (Which I think is totally wrong anyways, because you don't go through that amount of effort to create fake update videos. Or did he just magically invent all those assets, animations, writing, UIs and display cost free out of thin air?)
Again the far more likely scenario is that he's a junior developer, who is a bad project manager, who suffered from scope creep and who was too willing to claim completeness for the sake of getting backers. Which puts them firmly amongst many, many Kickstarters that still go on to release a product eventually, one day, when the internet has ceased crawling up their ass.
The same shit happened with NetGain. Dude thought he had it locked in and all he needed to do was the actual work. Then as he dug in, he realized his ideas weren't feasible, tried a re-write and after months the whole thing melted down when his money ran out and he had to become a working stiff again. I see more of that in TWS than what we have actually identified as legitimate frauds on Kickstarter.
Maybe I should also save this post since I've already also had this conversation in this thread before, so the next time Damiac decides to parachute in and bang the fraud drum I don't have to type it all out again for his sake, so he feels adequately debated. Since we're taking the route of being smug about all this.
Post by: birdy51 on March 23, 2018, 04:44:43 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 23, 2018, 04:49:29 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 23, 2018, 05:09:54 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2018, 05:50:58 pm
I did actually finally sit down and watch the video, which was kind of cool except... Do grand strategy type games usually have this much depth to them? The amount of numbers and seemingly arbitrary values is honestly more terrifying than any eldritch god.In terms of the sheer quantity of fiddly numbers? Nope. The archetypal grand strategy games are Paradox's titles, and they don't have that much. In terms of diverse game mechanics, they're up there, especially after getting a dozen expansions, but there's a lot fewer numbers that you have any reason to look at, and generally they're divided into semi-discrete subsystems, so you rarely are considering more than a few numbers at a time. This might be the case for TWS too, but so far it's looked overwhelming to me too. I think it could be better if UI elements (and some extent of the map) are obscured at the beginning and only slowly revealed as you progress, at least when playing the "easy" characters. It kind of sounds like while there's an intent to make certain old ones easier to play, there's nothing that drastic or tutorialy, but we haven't heard anything about that kind of stuff in years.
Post by: Darkmere on March 23, 2018, 05:57:58 pm
Can anyone describe to me in concrete detail how a single function of this ... we'll call it a project... actually works in gameplay? With sample numbers and a way to use it to your advantage?
I don't mean fanfic LARP terms, I mean actual proven on-camera gameplay specifics.
Post by: ndkid on March 23, 2018, 06:25:58 pm
The thing is, people claiming fraud are claiming KDG acted with malice. That their intent was to defraud, from the outset. Malice is one of the hardest things to prove because it's about what was in someone's heart when they did something. You can demonstrably prove their initial claims were false.
I would disagree that malicious mens rea is necessary for the intent to be to defraud from the outset. One can intend to mislead while still thinking that one has the customer's best interests at heart. (If you think the desire to mislead, however "minor" you might consider the deception, is inherently malicious, then we just have a semantic disagreement.)
----------
The possibility that strikes me, personally, as most likely is the one where Josh (with or without Joe's knowledge, that's harder for me to determine, and the fact that we only have Joe's side of the story makes me unwilling to assume Joe's version is the fully true one) exaggerated what was already done as part of an effort to get the KS to be successful. Unseemly, for sure, but, much like speeding, it's an unseemly thing which I think of as almost universal among Kickstarter campaigns, including plenty of successful ones. (And I'm defining "successful" pretty loosely here, because if we defined success by a KS delivering what it promises *when* it promised it would, I doubt the success rate in the video game space hits the double digits.) So, probably meets a legal definition of fraud in a number of jurisdictions but, to reiterate my point above, a fraud which I suspect almost every KS campaign of.
Then, there's that time of high morale, right after the campaign funded. Joe and Josh are probably high on living their dream. They're now officially professional video game developers! Why, the generosity of backers is going to let them make a game even *cooler* than the one they had initially planned! Art assets are bought. Plans are shared.
And then the reality of video game development starts to set in. There's a problem. Looks like a big refactor is going to be needed. Didn't help. A partial rewrite? Didn't help. Damn, now we're two weeks behind. Somewhere along the way, you start getting exposed to the ugly side of the internet, where people are quite happy to tell you, at length, how the thing you're doing is crap, or the way you're doing it is rubbish. And, now, when your fourth attempt to squash that bug still fails to do the trick, you start to wonder... are they right? Maybe you just need a break... you've been neck-deep in this game for months straight. So maybe you take a week off. I mean, you're already late, so what's a week?
I've never been that developer. But I've definitely had to manage that developer. Hell, I've had to fire that developer before, because if you can't tell me that you're having that big of a problem, then I can't help you solve that problem, and you're just wasting the company's money.
----------
I haven't seen anyone make the argument that what Josh is doing is polite, or good business, or even reasonable. I haven't seen anyone arguing that he doesn't constantly break self-imposed commitments without warning. He is being selfish, and, in doing so, has lost most of his supporters and what was probably one of his only remaining friends. I think it exceedingly unlikely that Josh's life is currently what anyone would classify as "happy". And all of that is stuff he could have avoided with relatively minor behavioral changes. (I say minor to describe difference from the behavior he chose, not how easy or difficult he would have found those changes to make; I don't know the man, much less the inner-workings of his brain.)
I think most people participating in this conversation would agree that the project was an interesting idea that they'd like people to get to play through.
I don't begrudge people who want to argue, even academically, what laws Josh has or hasn't broken, so long as they're at least clear in the priors they're assuming. I think there's room in this thread for the mobs with pitchforks and the people who want to discuss how cool, or lame, the content of the videos are every few months when they randomly appear. But the internet takes people's natural tendency to fall into opposing camps and dials it up to 11. So I just like to remind myself, sometimes, that we're mostly arguing over things at the edges, while agreeing to a solid 90% of the facts, and even mostly agreeing in our opinions.
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 06:44:02 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2018, 06:49:35 pm
The thing is, people claiming fraud are claiming KDG acted with malice. That their intent was to defraud, from the outset. Malice is one of the hardest things to prove because it's about what was in someone's heart when they did something. You can demonstrably prove their initial claims were false. Why were they false though? Because he deliberately misrepresented the situation or because he overestimated his progress? If you can prove that, I'd like to see it. I think we all would. We'd all like to know if he acted with malice. But that's the harder claim to prove.
fraud doesn't require malice, just his knowledge of the falsity of his statements. try again.
edit: also, it's important to note that it's not up to us to prove what he was thinking at the time. anything about his state of mind or intent can just be alleged generally; it's up to him to come up with evidence supporting whatever his excuse is (like "overestimating his progress").
Post by: nenjin on March 23, 2018, 07:01:17 pm
And again, incompetence != fraud. If he had prototype that he dicked around with for 2 hours and assumed was good, made the Kickstarter with that statement, then in the first preview discovered that after 4 hours the simulation locked up and the AI shit itself, that's not fraud either.
Quote
edit: also, it's important to note that it's not up to us to prove what he was thinking at the time.
You seem to be the legal expert here, but I'm pretty sure the burden of proof lies with the plantiff, not the defendant. If you accuse him of something, the burden of proof is not him to exonerate himself.
Post by: birdy51 on March 23, 2018, 07:16:11 pm
So, while he explained the numbers and showed off some of the actions one can take; he didn't do anything with them yet, partially because a turn never progressed and another part because that was his goal. Which, take that as you will. It seemed to me that he simply wanted explain the base features first through a pretty scripted... Script. While I doubt it was one take, he certainly moved along in a pretty procerdural manner as he examined and showed off each of the yet immoving parts of the game.
Anyways. It is confusing as hell. On the surface it looks ok, but there are a lot of things that give me questions. Like, why are some numbers green and others red? Up in the top-right corner shows the location whenever the mouse moves on the map. Oh no. Why? Why doesn't it just fixate on the current location like something sane would? There is also a bit of name glut going on; lots of names and people, but not really a whole lot to make them distinct. That's probably my own problem, since I can hardly keep track of my dwarves, but still. That's a lot of randos to keep track of. And on that note, what separates them from heroes? Are these city constrained people, or do they get to move around as refugees/attackers/slaves? Do they die? Can we kill the random people arbitrarily? What really is madness, and how do I get the humans to blow up their city in a desperate attempt to get rid of me?
I don't know whether I can expect an answer to these questions, but I kind of hope they get answered in resolute way one way or another if he decides to throw another video at us.
---
On the whole debate thing, I can agree with ndkid's last point. We do agree on the basic terms. Something went wrong in this game's development. There's a problem. Josh is trying to fix it; whether one way or another.
I don't really want to believe in the fraud aspect... But that's mostly because I still want to hold out hope that something cool gets produced. It's purely emotional, and I am a sort of stupid optimist whom facts struggle to reach on the best days, let alone my worst. I want to hope something notable gets produced because that would be the best result; Josh would be able to redeem himself after an incredibly trying development and the Kickstarters finally get a damn game after all the bullshit they've been pulled through.
Until we see the end result, we are simply reopening old, embarrassing wounds from a particularly nasty experience from which there has been no conclusion. When one is put through a hellish experience like this one, I don't think I can blame anyone for wanting this all to disappear. Discord without finality is deafening, and even a bad ending is better than none. Finality is it's own reward, since once something is done, it's done. We can look it at it. There's no more mystery or unspoken words left to prod or poke. So, hopefully, if nothing else, something does happen that puts an end to things.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2018, 07:21:56 pm
No, it's not required. But if you want real punitive damages assessed, you're going to have to prove malice on some level. Either that he knowingly made false statements or made said statements with a reckless disregard for the harm they would cause.
nobody has brought up punitive damages, because you're right about that. but nobody cares about assessing punitive damages. actual damages would be fine here. maybe attorneys' fees if we're being extravagant.
Quote
And again, incompetence != fraud. If he had prototype that he dicked around with for 2 hours and assumed was good, made the Kickstarter with that statement, then in the first preview discovered that after 4 hours the simulation locked up and the AI shit itself, that's not fraud either.Quoteedit: also, it's important to note that it's not up to us to prove what he was thinking at the time.
You seem to be the legal expert here, but I'm pretty sure the burden of proof lies with the plantiff, not the defendant. If you accuse him of something, the burden of proof is not him to exonerate himself.
again, this is exactly why i didn't bring this up before, because explaining this requires people to actually read the explanations to understand, as oppose to reading for the purpose of arguing.
yes, the "burden of proof" lies with the plaintiff. but what does that mean?
yes, it means that the plaintiff has to prove the basic facts of what happened. here, that just means the representations made, when and where, and that they were relied on in backing. motive and state of mind don't have to proven specifically. the trier of fact can make reasonable inferences from the evidence, even if the defendant generally denies them. the defendant has to produce affirmative evidence to controvert the evidence produced by the plaintiff. it would absolutely be up to josh/KDG to produce evidence of the state of the game in september 2014 (or soon enough after to reasonably infer that he had something early on). if he can't show anything, then, again, the trier of fact can draw the reasonable inference that nothing was produced as evidence because nothing exists.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 23, 2018, 07:51:45 pm
How are you defining "diverse game mechanics?" Being familiar with ck2 and Stellaris, I can't really think of anything to keep pace with all that.I did actually finally sit down and watch the video, which was kind of cool except... Do grand strategy type games usually have this much depth to them? The amount of numbers and seemingly arbitrary values is honestly more terrifying than any eldritch god.In terms of the sheer quantity of fiddly numbers? Nope. The archetypal grand strategy games are Paradox's titles, and they don't have that much. In terms of diverse game mechanics, they're up there, especially after getting a dozen expansions, but there's a lot fewer numbers that you have any reason to look at, and generally they're divided into semi-discrete subsystems, so you rarely are considering more than a few numbers at a time. This might be the case for TWS too, but so far it's looked overwhelming to me too. I think it could be better if UI elements (and some extent of the map) are obscured at the beginning and only slowly revealed as you progress, at least when playing the "easy" characters. It kind of sounds like while there's an intent to make certain old ones easier to play, there's nothing that drastic or tutorialy, but we haven't heard anything about that kind of stuff in years.
So, as someone who's watched this for years but isn't a backer:Somewhere in the first video (of the two recently posted) he mentions that shutting down coastal trade networks can drop a city's income from 40ish (I think?) to 5-10ish, so you might want to disrupt trade.
Can anyone describe to me in concrete detail how a single function of this ... we'll call it a project... actually works in gameplay? With sample numbers and a way to use it to your advantage?
I don't mean fanfic LARP terms, I mean actual proven on-camera gameplay specifics.
This was not displayed in actual gameplay.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 23, 2018, 08:36:27 pm
I did actually finally sit down and watch the video, which was kind of cool except... Do grand strategy type games usually have this much depth to them? The amount of numbers and seemingly arbitrary values is honestly more terrifying than any eldritch god.In terms of the sheer quantity of fiddly numbers? Nope. The archetypal grand strategy games are Paradox's titles, and they don't have that much. In terms of diverse game mechanics, they're up there, especially after getting a dozen expansions, but there's a lot fewer numbers that you have any reason to look at, and generally they're divided into semi-discrete subsystems, so you rarely are considering more than a few numbers at a time. This might be the case for TWS too, but so far it's looked overwhelming to me too.
Hmm... We might have different UI preferences. As shown, TWS looks incredibly dense, and it's not even remotely obvious that clicking on each little icon brings up details and management, but I think the overall idea makes it much easier to avoid things you don't want to deal with while getting an overall view (just don't click the summary stats), while still keeping track of what you do want to work with. It helps keep separate systems, well, separate. Whereas with Paradox games, it always felt like half the initial learning curve was figuring out how to navigate the menus to get to stuff you needed to work with while avoiding the stuff you don't need to care about.
EDIT:
Ok, after rewatching parts of the first video... there's a lot more going on than I remember. I do think the overall idea is better, and once you know what everything means I think the abilty to get everything at-a-glance would be really nice, but wow.
Post by: Frumple on March 23, 2018, 11:02:53 pm
nobody has brought up punitive damages, because you're right about that. but nobody cares about assessing punitive damages. actual damages would be fine here. maybe attorneys' fees if we're being extravagant.What kind of nutjobbery is involving an attorney in a sub-hundred dollar refund claim? Your actual damages, assuming the court ruled in your favor to begin with (note I'd probably be pretty damn hesitant assuming that stateside, if you're trying it over here -- there's not much protection for getting burned by something like KS if you're of sound mind, last I paid attention), would be whatever you backed at most. For most people that's small claims court junk, and bringing a lawyer into that is how you lose an order of magnitude more money than you were suing for.
I guess you could try for some kind of class action thing? I'unno, bringing something like this before a judge in general, particularly just for the cost of the "damages" a backer incurred, sounds more pants on head than still wanting to give more money to the project at this point in time.
... actually, quick glance at legal action involving the amounts that would be in question here suggests that anything that's not class action or punitive would be basically bloody stupid. Weeks to months of court effort for a refund probably lower than the cost to file the claim, that you might not even get at the end of it all. You'd need a good pile of spite and a lot of time on your hands to go through with it. Hell, if you actually are trying to stiff the dev with the attorney fees I doubt you could even call it justice or some shite given how much more money that'd pretty certainly involve than the amount generally backed.
Dunno if I even have much of a point here, other than to note this talk of legal repercussions sounds like lunacy when for most folks they're out like, what, 30 bucks or some junk? Maybe a BBB or consumer protection complaint or somethin'. Simple money voting, for what good it'd do at this point. There's not much room for a courtroom to get involved with this situation without someone having gone kinda' loco.
Post by: nenjin on March 24, 2018, 01:58:27 am
Quote
the defendant has to produce affirmative evidence to controvert the evidence produced by the plaintiff. it would absolutely be up to josh/KDG to produce evidence of the state of the game in september 2014 (or soon enough after to reasonably infer that he had something early on). if he can't show anything, then, again, the trier of fact can draw the reasonable inference that nothing was produced as evidence because nothing exists.
He could already produce the map editor and the rough scenario creator. Between that and his existing footage, I sort of doubt the demand for trotting out the work product of 2014 would be necessary to win the judgment. If the plaintiff is asserting there was nothing, he's already has something to controvert that. May not be the "full prototype" (whatever that means), but it's something more than nothing. I'm not sure he would even be required to produce that much, especially when the speculative nature of Kickstarter is brought to bear, and the fact his work is ostensibly ongoing.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2018, 06:47:51 am
nobody has brought up punitive damages, because you're right about that. but nobody cares about assessing punitive damages. actual damages would be fine here. maybe attorneys' fees if we're being extravagant.What kind of nutjobbery is involving an attorney in a sub-hundred dollar refund claim? ...
yeah, as was discussed earlier, it would only work as a class action.
Quotethe defendant has to produce affirmative evidence to controvert the evidence produced by the plaintiff. it would absolutely be up to josh/KDG to produce evidence of the state of the game in september 2014 (or soon enough after to reasonably infer that he had something early on). if he can't show anything, then, again, the trier of fact can draw the reasonable inference that nothing was produced as evidence because nothing exists.
He could already produce the map editor and the rough scenario creator. Between that and his existing footage, I sort of doubt the demand for trotting out the work product of 2014 would be necessary to win the judgment. If the plaintiff is asserting there was nothing, he's already has something to controvert that. May not be the "full prototype" (whatever that means), but it's something more than nothing. I'm not sure he would even be required to produce that much, especially when the speculative nature of Kickstarter is brought to bear, and the fact his work is ostensibly ongoing.
none of those are a "working game" or a prototype or whatever you want to call he said he had in september 2014. i could trawl back through the posts he made when he stilled posted during the campaign, and the numerous promises that the beta would be out "next week" or whatever.
also, it doesn't matter if after september 2014 he produced a few crappy pieces of software or videos, like the so-called "scenario editor" (nothing more than an asset viewer). what matters is what he had when the made the claims to support the kickstarter. hell, the videos could be real NOW, and it'd still be fraud, because he was misrepresenting the state of progress in 9/2014 to get support for the ks.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 24, 2018, 07:39:17 am
nobody has brought up punitive damages, because you're right about that. but nobody cares about assessing punitive damages. actual damages would be fine here. maybe attorneys' fees if we're being extravagant.What kind of nutjobbery is involving an attorney in a sub-hundred dollar refund claim? Your actual damages, assuming the court ruled in your favor to begin with (note I'd probably be pretty damn hesitant assuming that stateside, if you're trying it over here -- there's not much protection for getting burned by something like KS if you're of sound mind, last I paid attention), would be whatever you backed at most. For most people that's small claims court junk, and bringing a lawyer into that is how you lose an order of magnitude more money than you were suing for.
Well some people (not me) have invested four digit sums into this "game", so they may be willing to do that.
For the comparison to the mandate: That one went out rather quietly, and by now they have more or less admitted themself that the game will never come out as intented. So there is not much discussion there. In the case of TWS there is a small difference: Actual short term lies. Perspective from someone who joined the forums not too long before shit hit the fan: Josh was promising the game to be released within DAYS back then. He was keeping this claim for weeks. We were all hoping to someday lock in and be greeted by a download button. We were stung along like that for weeks, if not months, and kept additional lies. So there began to be a split between those that still believed Josh and those that demanded the damm release to finally happen. That created a lot of friction and agitation. And then Josh just left. We tried to keep in contact to him through the moderators and his buisnesspartner/then friend Fen. He gave us a few infos, including the one that there was no game at that point and the videos release where cripted mockups. So with that background, most of us just became nihilistic relating to this game. We kept the rest of the forum that wasnīt nuked alive (did I mention that at some point Josh or Fen just straight
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 24, 2018, 10:24:18 am
He [Fen/Joe] gave us a few infos, including the one that there was no game at that point and the videos release where cripted mockups. So with that background, most of us just became nihilistic relating to this game. We kept the rest of the forum that wasnīt nuked alive (did I mention that at some point Josh or Fen just straight
A while ago someone made the point that it'd probably be best to take what Joe was saying the last few days before he left with a grain of salt. The one and only time he'd said anything like the videos were a lie, he'd never seen a working copy, the playtesters don't exist, etc was right when he was getting ready to wash his hands of the whole project and never look back, and at that point he had an extremely vested interest in redirecting the community's anger away from him and onto Josh. He'd seen how the community turned on Josh, and likely wanted nothing to do with it.
Also, the Kickstarter was ran by King Dinosaur Games, not Josh personally. And Joe is the registered agent for King Dinosaur Games, meaning he'd be immediately aware of any lawsuits filed (being the one to receive service). This whole "Kickstarter campaign was formally and legally ran by King Dinosaur Games, LLC and not Josh personally" thing is something *literally everyone* seems to be overlooking when talking about suing Josh.
The question I'm interested in is if someone (it's been Joe, historically) files an Annual Report for King Dinosaur Games this year, because that'd be a real and obvious sign someone is trying to keep this alive (you don't spend $500 to keep your business running just because - and the only punishment Massachusetts seems to have for not filing is that failure to file for 2 years gets the company dissolved).
Post by: Serenseven on March 24, 2018, 11:01:57 am
He gave us a few infos, including the one that there was no game at that point and the videos release where cripted mockups.
What was actually said was that one video - the "First Turns and New Maps" one - was scripted. Joe had a programmer friend look at an incomplete copy of the source code, and the friend found the script hard-coded into the function that normally would have handled the passing of turns. So that video does not actually show what it purports to show.
This is actually the only provable deception about That Which Sleeps. Provable because I was that friend, I found that script, I told Joe about it, and I still have that copy of the source code (with the script still inside it).
And before anyone asks: No, the incomplete copy of the source code I have does not compile into even a running executable, much less an actual game.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 24, 2018, 12:38:59 pm
He gave us a few infos, including the one that there was no game at that point and the videos release where cripted mockups.
What was actually said was that one video - the "First Turns and New Maps" one - was scripted. Joe had a programmer friend look at an incomplete copy of the source code, and the friend found the script hard-coded into the function that normally would have handled the passing of turns. So that video does not actually show what it purports to show.
This is actually the only provable deception about That Which Sleeps. Provable because I was that friend, I found that script, I told Joe about it, and I still have that copy of the source code (with the script still inside it).
And before anyone asks: No, the incomplete copy of the source code I have does not compile into even a running executable, much less an actual game.
Outta curiosity, does it look like there's any supporting structure for turn advancement at all? I'm curious if it was scripted just to make sure Josh knew exactly what would happen so he could explain everything best, vs it being the only way to get it work.
Not that I think it actually is to aid recording... I don't have anywhere near that much faith in Josh. But it is a benign explanation.
Then similarly, does it seem to fail to compile because you're missing dependencies, or because it's fundamentally incomplete, or.. It had to have compiled in some form to make the videos even with a script, so I'm just wondering if failure to compile has a benign explanation as well.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 24, 2018, 01:16:33 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2018, 01:27:38 pm
He gave us a few infos, including the one that there was no game at that point and the videos release where cripted mockups.
What was actually said was that one video - the "First Turns and New Maps" one - was scripted. Joe had a programmer friend look at an incomplete copy of the source code, and the friend found the script hard-coded into the function that normally would have handled the passing of turns. So that video does not actually show what it purports to show.
This is actually the only provable deception about That Which Sleeps. Provable because I was that friend, I found that script, I told Joe about it, and I still have that copy of the source code (with the script still inside it).
you know, after stuff like this comes out, it's almost like people haven't been paying attention or are just arguing for the sake of arguing. we KNOW at least one of the videos is fake. what kind of gullible do you need to be to think "oh, it was just the one video that was faked, the rest are probably real."
Post by: Darkmere on March 24, 2018, 01:32:45 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 24, 2018, 02:01:18 pm
Post by: lordcooper on March 24, 2018, 02:54:33 pm
As for the 'mostly working game in 2014', there are at least three realistic reasons for it not being subsequently produced.
1. This was prior to the (admittedly overly ambitious) stretch goals being met, which necessitated major rewrites. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if it was a case of going back to the drawing board for a lot of underlying systems.
2. We know the dev is, to put it gently, disorganised. I'm not prepared to assume he adhered to strict version control throughout the entire period of development. It's fully possible that said files simply no longer exist in that form. Hell, even professional AAA studios (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/300931/Without_code_from_the_original_Blizzard_had_to_build_StarCraft_Remastered_from_scratch.php) have lost access to their source code in the past, and I'm talking entire released games here rather than merely a several years old build.
3. He simply doesn't want people to see a WIP. As much as this being the sole reason would annoy me, I could still empathise with this. I shudder at the mere thought of someone poring over and critiquing my unfinished work.
I'm not saying it's definitely all legit. Mainly because I'm not quite big headed enough to present my assumptions as indisputable fact (cough cough). I'm saying there's no particularly definitive evidence either way and freaking out whenever someone casts doubt on your Proclamation From On High does nothing but make you (general you, there's more than one person doing this) look like a bit of a prat.
I will say that if it is a scam (and it might be) then Josh needs to get an award for being the world's dumbest scammer. Far less effort could have been put into maintaining a thin veneer of legitimacy, and popping up every now and again with a video would be more than a little counterproductive. If I'd scammed people out of some cash then I'd do my best to avoid reminding them of this on a semi-regular basis.
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 24, 2018, 02:59:33 pm
I think that almost everyone would be surprised if Josh actually managed to finish the game at some point in the future, after everything that has happened with the project. The debate mostly seems to between 'The kickstarter was a scam and Josh is a fraud' and 'The kickstarter was legitimate but Josh couldn't handle things'. Not defending the existence of the game but Josh's intentions to make one from the very beginning.
I would agree with you but:
"I don't think this can be fake. "
"Great to see the update, and it's looking very interesting."
"I, for one, am still hyped :P"
"This has actually shocked me (in a good way). I was literally just considering That Which Sleeps this time last week, and I went over to the Forum to see if there was anything at all; then seeing this is just fantastic."
"Oh, with all of this excellent progress, when will we be submitting names for NPCs and Adventurers?"
Taken in no particular order from the KS comments section after his last update.
The newest one is my favorite:"Anybody that's being negative, please check the YouTube. It's obvious that this IS a game with mechanics that will see a full release."
There are not only people believing it could come out. There are people who say its OBVIOUS that it will come out, why are we even doubting?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 24, 2018, 03:01:13 pm
Better?
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 24, 2018, 03:03:16 pm
'Almost everyone on Bay12'.
Better?
Would be better if there wasnīt that comment two posts above you ;D
Post by: lordcooper on March 24, 2018, 03:16:35 pm
As far as I'm concerned the smart money is on 'bit off way more than he can chew and it's very slowly proceeding through development hell', but I'm not completely convinced of this. Colour me agnostic but vaguely hopeful.
Post by: Cruxador on March 24, 2018, 05:59:42 pm
As far as I'm concerned the smart money is on 'bit off way more than he can chew and it's very slowly proceeding through development hell', but I'm not completely convinced of this. Colour me agnostic but vaguely hopeful.This is what I think too, but besides just having more than he can chew, I suspect he's not doing a good job of prioritizing development areas, and is alternating between working on time consuming things (content) or perhaps even doing nothing meaningful at all for extended periods of time, because of anxiety with the difficulties he may be facing when working on mechanics. I think this because his output looks a lot like when I fall into a similar trap while working on very large projects. I do think that the game will probably come out eventually, but not any time soon. Either he will need to work through everything at his own pace (which may never happen - there's always things to improve on) or he'll have to buckle down and really just do whatever he can in the areas that are sticking him up so far. He already had one such crisis where he had to throw out his ideal AI plan and do something different, but it seems like he needs another such kick in the pants to actually release something.
Post by: Damiac on March 24, 2018, 09:40:26 pm
I think that almost everyone would be surprised if Josh actually managed to finish the game at some point in the future, after everything that has happened with the project. The debate mostly seems to between 'The kickstarter was a scam and Josh is a fraud' and 'The kickstarter was legitimate but Josh couldn't handle things'. Not defending the existence of the game but Josh's intentions to make one from the very beginning.You're skipping the third option, the one that seems most likely to me.
The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.
Josh's intentions don't really matter, the claims he made matter. The claims can still be found in the kickstarter.
If you choose to believe that he's not releasing anything for some reason other than he doesn't have it, then you don't believe it's fraud.
If you choose to believe that he's not releasing anything because he never had anything, then you do believe it's fraud.
I'd say all evidence points to fraud, especially given a history of faking other stuff, and the state of what software was released, but that's where anyone's ability to prove anything ends (except Josh). I'd say it's certainly worthwhile to pursue all avenues of justice available if you are out money on this, but obviously you shouldn't throw good money after bad. FTC and AG are free to contact, enough complaints could cause some action, including the release of said prototype game, which would obviously prove it wasn't fraud after all.
Those would seem to be the facts as we know them, but obviously other people interpret things differently. I only hope we can agree on the basic facts, since we seem to have been over them so many times.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 24, 2018, 09:51:18 pm
The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.
That's... not fraud? What?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2018, 10:43:14 pm
The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.
That's... not fraud? What?
of course it's fraud. have you not been reading this thread that you've been posting in?
if he knowingly made a false statement for the purpose of getting people to take some action based on it, to his benefit, that's fraud.
IT DOESN'T MATTER if he intended to release the game the whole time. it doesn't matter if he thought the extra money would give him the resources he needed to ACTUALLY finish the game. if he lied to make the kickstarter look better at all, it's fraud.
that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T. sure, he could have maliciously ripped everyone off, that's fraud. but if he just overstated the progress he had already achieved, thinking he would have plenty of money and time to finish, guess what? that's fraud too.
Post by: birdy51 on March 24, 2018, 10:55:33 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 24, 2018, 11:23:29 pm
that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T.
I believe that fraud requires malice, and every legal definition I've seen suggest is does, but I'm not sure I posted that in the thread yet. So no. I don't think that counts as fraud. Thinking that he had the time and money to finish the prototype he had prevents it from being fraud. It's a statement of belief, not one of fact.
Post by: ndkid on March 24, 2018, 11:45:56 pm
A reasonable general source for the elements of a fraud gives:that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T.
I believe that fraud requires malice, and every legal definition I've seen suggest is does, but I'm not sure I posted that in the thread yet. So no. I don't think that counts as fraud. Thinking that he had the time and money to finish the prototype he had prevents it from being fraud. It's a statement of belief, not one of fact.
(1) a false statement of a material fact,
(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue,
(3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim,
(4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and
(5) injury to the alleged victim as a result
My questions for you:
a) Does (3) meet your definition of "malice"?
b) Do you feel that there is a required element to the crime of fraud not covered in the above breakdown?
c) If so, do you have a source from your set of "every legal definition" you've seen that contains an element not covered by the five above that meets your definition of "malice"?
d) Do you feel that one of the elements above was not met in the statements made as part of the KS campaign?
To me, I suspect the differences in opinion mostly hinge on how we interpret statements like:
"By waiting until we have a fully functional and working game engine we feel like we successfully mitigated the most common risks that many games on Kickstarter face. We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion."
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2018, 12:00:40 am
One thing has been weighing on me a little bit. In the video, Josh referred to the development team as a 'we', as opposed to I or anything like that. Is he currently working along with others yet?Not necessarily. I normally use "we" to refer to my business even though I don't have my employees.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 25, 2018, 12:08:47 am
-snip-
3) is where the malice bit comes in. Intent to deceive is inherently malicious. The five statements are exactly what I've read too.
You are very right that how people interpret those statements influences their viewpoints. At worst I don't think that Josh and Joe knew that those statements were false when they made them. They were doing what all salespeople do and puffing up what they had to sell it to others. Others obviously disagree.
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 25, 2018, 12:23:15 am
Puffing up an objective fact isn't normal salesmanship, it's outright lying.-snip-
3) is where the malice bit comes in. Intent to deceive is inherently malicious. The five statements are exactly what I've read too.
You are very right that how people interpret those statements influences their viewpoints. At worst I don't think that Josh and Joe knew that those statements were false when they made them. They were doing what all salespeople do and puffing up what they had to sell it to others. Others obviously disagree.
If they were saying something like "we have made many great accomplishments in the past", or making predictions about the future, then that would be mostly okay, since that's subjective. Whether or not you have a "working game with all major game systems implemented," however, is not.
Post by: ndkid on March 25, 2018, 12:28:22 am
You are very right that how people interpret those statements influences their viewpoints. At worst I don't think that Josh and Joe knew that those statements were false when they made them. They were doing what all salespeople do and puffing up what they had to sell it to others. Others obviously disagree.
As bloop_bleep points out, I think we can agree those statements amount to more than puffery; they were legally material. Even if I stipulate that Josh and Joe thought the statements were true, I'm pretty sure the prosecution could attack that belief as unreasonable. (Having said that, I don't have a lot of confidence in knowing how a given judge or jury would end up viewing such an argument, because we'd be getting into some pretty technical breakdowns on the state of the code and what it could do at a given point in time, and that's not an area that either judges or juries have shown a high degree of willingness to develop sufficient expertise to make well-informed judgments.) (Disclaimer: I'm still not taking a stance on whether or not those statements were actually true, as I don't fall into either camp of feeling the evidence is sufficient to prove that they never had anything functional or that they clearly had a working prototype.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 25, 2018, 01:51:03 am
I think it's pretty obvious now that you can't convince other people to read differently into certain words so I'm going to shut up and leave the thread for a bit to cool down. I'm sorry if I've come across as rude or yelling. That honestly wasn't my intention. I'm sorry.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 25, 2018, 08:22:25 am
that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T.
I believe that fraud requires malice, and every legal definition I've seen suggest is does, but I'm not sure I posted that in the thread yet. So no. I don't think that counts as fraud. Thinking that he had the time and money to finish the prototype he had prevents it from being fraud. It's a statement of belief, not one of fact.
lol no, we literally already had this discussion a few pages ago. nothing about fraud requires malice. just knowingly making a false statement of material fact to induce someone to rely on that statement to their detriment.
-snip-
3) is where the malice bit comes in. Intent to deceive is inherently malicious. The five statements are exactly what I've read too.
You are very right that how people interpret those statements influences their viewpoints. At worst I don't think that Josh and Joe knew that those statements were false when they made them. They were doing what all salespeople do and puffing up what they had to sell it to others. Others obviously disagree.
intent to deceive isn't inherently malicious. he could have intended to actually release the game, at the time he was lying about it.
malice is the intention to do harm. if he intended to trick people, but then actually release the game, it wouldn't be malicious - because people would have received exactly what they expected.
sure, you can have a malicious fraud, where he never intended to release the game. people keep saying, "aw I don't think it's fraud, he just got in over his head." yes, that can be true, and it's still fraud.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 25, 2018, 08:26:16 am
This just leads back to 'It depends on how you interpret certain words and statements in the kickstarter'. You view it one way and you think it's a fraud. Another and you don't. The problem is that it's not a technical or legal document but a sales pitch meant to sell game on the idea of the game and that it'll succeed.
This is why one of the elements of fraud is misrepresentation of a material fact. if it were just puffery to make himself sound good and make the project sound cool, that wouldn't be fraud. like if he released a game that didn't really allow you to do exactly what his recounted stories said you could do, that would be fine.
but misrepresentations as to the current state of progress on the game isn't puffery. it's material to the actual question of whether there is a game and if it'll ever be released.
so are the misrepresentations as to "we have a full-time coder." pretty quickly, delays on the beta forums were described as, "josh has to do some contract work so he can't work on this game full-time." was josh ever working full-time on TWS?
Quote
I think it's pretty obvious now that you can't convince other people to read differently into certain words so I'm going to shut up and leave the thread for a bit to cool down. I'm sorry if I've come across as rude or yelling. That honestly wasn't my intention. I'm sorry.
the problem is that you keep making statements like "fraud requires malice" and "intent to deceive is inherently malicious" that are just objectively wrong in the context of what's being discussed.
Post by: Astral on March 25, 2018, 10:29:15 am
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 25, 2018, 10:42:30 am
One thing has been weighing on me a little bit. In the video, Josh referred to the development team as a 'we', as opposed to I or anything like that. Is he currently working along with others yet?
As far as we know, no. KDG was a two man team before Fen left and after that Josh has been alone. I donīt think that changed at all. If it did there is no sign of it. I just think he uses the "we" as a way to refer to the company, even if it is just a one man show now. Maybe he is used to it. Maybe he thinks it sounds more professional. Or maybe he has some voices in his head and is including them in the "we". Or refers to himself as royality. At this point I would be surprised by none of those things.
Post by: Lapoleon on March 25, 2018, 10:50:57 am
Seeing activity in this thread had me wondering, but I was disappointed to find it's just another rehash of the arguments that have been done a hundred times over already.
Haven't you gotten the memo that it's critically important that everyone who falls into the "it's probably never coming because Josh is in way over his head but we'll just wait and see" camp should convert to the "it's fraud but we're not going to do anything about it (partly because we didn't even back the game)" camp?
Post by: Serenseven on March 25, 2018, 11:32:48 am
What was actually said was that one video - the "First Turns and New Maps" one - was scripted. Joe had a programmer friend look at an incomplete copy of the source code, and the friend found the script hard-coded into the function that normally would have handled the passing of turns. So that video does not actually show what it purports to show.
This is actually the only provable deception about That Which Sleeps. Provable because I was that friend, I found that script, I told Joe about it, and I still have that copy of the source code (with the script still inside it).
And before anyone asks: No, the incomplete copy of the source code I have does not compile into even a running executable, much less an actual game.
Outta curiosity, does it look like there's any supporting structure for turn advancement at all? I'm curious if it was scripted just to make sure Josh knew exactly what would happen so he could explain everything best, vs it being the only way to get it work.
Not that I think it actually is to aid recording... I don't have anywhere near that much faith in Josh. But it is a benign explanation.
Then similarly, does it seem to fail to compile because you're missing dependencies, or because it's fundamentally incomplete, or.. It had to have compiled in some form to make the videos even with a script, so I'm just wondering if failure to compile has a benign explanation as well.
There are some classes named "TurnController", "GameController", etc., that seem to be the code representation of Unity objects that would be responsible for managing individual turns and the overall state of the game, respectively. There is nothing TWS-specific in them, however, so I assume these classes were auto-generated by Unity when the associated objects were put in the project.
I am not getting into the question of Josh's motives for scripting the video. All I stated was that that particular video is not what is says it is in the title. It claims to show the first turns, when in fact no turns are passing. I'm aware that putting an executable on rails temporarily for demonstration purposes is a thing - I've done it before - but I also took care to make everyone involved aware that it was just an illustration of planned future features, and not the actual features themselves.
The video makes no such disclaimer, and therefore is currently the only thing about TWS that can be proven to be a falsehood without relying on anyone's perceptions of "fraud", "malice" or whatever. It is an objective fact that that video is not what it claims to be. Why it is not what it claims to be is an entirely different question, and is not answerable with our current knowledge.
The source code I have doesn't compile because the linker is looking for Unity prefabs and other precompiled objects that are not part of the code I have, and that are not present on my machine. Josh's Unity environment presumably has these objects present and so his executable would compile.
I should also point out that the source I have is dated 10/23/2016. So we're talking about nearly year-and-a-half-old code here. Things may (or may not) be very different now.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 25, 2018, 12:48:01 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 25, 2018, 01:23:26 pm
There are some classes named "TurnController", "GameController", etc., that seem to be the code representation of Unity objects that would be responsible for managing individual turns and the overall state of the game, respectively. There is nothing TWS-specific in them, however, so I assume these classes were auto-generated by Unity when the associated objects were put in the project.Unity doesn't 'autogenerate' anything. It does have some default classes and such but none of those are called TurnController or GameController. It's possible he used some unity asset that had predefined classes but if you just load up Unity it doesn't include any support for turn based games at all, you have to build all of the turn logic yourself or use some community developed asset package.
Post by: Serenseven on March 25, 2018, 01:40:23 pm
Unity doesn't 'autogenerate' anything. It does have some default classes and such but none of those are called TurnController or GameController. It's possible he used some unity asset that had predefined classes but if you just load up Unity it doesn't include any support for turn based games at all, you have to build all of the turn logic yourself or use some community developed asset package.
Good to know, thank you.
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 25, 2018, 02:33:12 pm
What was actually said was that one video - the "First Turns and New Maps" one - was scripted. Joe had a programmer friend look at an incomplete copy of the source code, and the friend found the script hard-coded into the function that normally would have handled the passing of turns. So that video does not actually show what it purports to show.
This is actually the only provable deception about That Which Sleeps. Provable because I was that friend, I found that script, I told Joe about it, and I still have that copy of the source code (with the script still inside it).
And before anyone asks: No, the incomplete copy of the source code I have does not compile into even a running executable, much less an actual game.
Outta curiosity, does it look like there's any supporting structure for turn advancement at all? I'm curious if it was scripted just to make sure Josh knew exactly what would happen so he could explain everything best, vs it being the only way to get it work.
Not that I think it actually is to aid recording... I don't have anywhere near that much faith in Josh. But it is a benign explanation.
Then similarly, does it seem to fail to compile because you're missing dependencies, or because it's fundamentally incomplete, or.. It had to have compiled in some form to make the videos even with a script, so I'm just wondering if failure to compile has a benign explanation as well.
There are some classes named "TurnController", "GameController", etc., that seem to be the code representation of Unity objects that would be responsible for managing individual turns and the overall state of the game, respectively. There is nothing TWS-specific in them, however, so I assume these classes were auto-generated by Unity when the associated objects were put in the project.
I am not getting into the question of Josh's motives for scripting the video. All I stated was that that particular video is not what is says it is in the title. It claims to show the first turns, when in fact no turns are passing. I'm aware that putting an executable on rails temporarily for demonstration purposes is a thing - I've done it before - but I also took care to make everyone involved aware that it was just an illustration of planned future features, and not the actual features themselves.
The video makes no such disclaimer, and therefore is currently the only thing about TWS that can be proven to be a falsehood without relying on anyone's perceptions of "fraud", "malice" or whatever. It is an objective fact that that video is not what it claims to be. Why it is not what it claims to be is an entirely different question, and is not answerable with our current knowledge.
The source code I have doesn't compile because the linker is looking for Unity prefabs and other precompiled objects that are not part of the code I have, and that are not present on my machine. Josh's Unity environment presumably has these objects present and so his executable would compile.
I should also point out that the source I have is dated 10/23/2016. So we're talking about nearly year-and-a-half-old code here. Things may (or may not) be very different now.
Oh yeah, I'm not gonna pretend it's anything good. Absolute best case it's scripted based off an actual playthrough and that was never mentioned, worst it's an outright deception to mask the lack of progress. And the only way you'd have any idea is if he'd left some comment like "//ignore normal logic, play script for recording" which I really, really doubt happened.
How far does the script go, could you tell? Did we see everything in the video, or was there more to it?
Then it sounds like failure to compile is just from mismatched build environments. That's about as routine as you can get when the process is "zip up source, email away", so that doesn't personally worry me. And yeah, a lot can happen in a year and a half. Of course, a lot can fail to happen, and while everything we've seen recently looks very polished... Lack of polish on the map and UI hasn't ever been the problem
Post by: birdy51 on March 25, 2018, 05:42:24 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 25, 2018, 05:45:35 pm
You know, has Josh's specialty ever been nailed down?Proctology, I hazard
Post by: Damiac on March 26, 2018, 02:28:34 pm
Here's some quotes from KingDinosaurGames from 2014 over at that cesspool of awfulness that is RPG Codex.
You'll find it if you google it, the place is so bad I don't even want to paste a link to it here... Plus the name of the page is unfortunate. But Josh was quite active over there pitching the game, so it is what it is.
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Demo - The better the KS goes the worse it is for us as far as dev goes - I've had no time to do any actual development the last week. With the KS cooling down in week two I want to get some heads down time to do it.
I think you'll find the game as it stands has a ton of replay value, but if you are the kind of person who wants every game to be on a geographical new map I can see how it might disappoint you. At the very least if we do fail to hit Procedural Generation I am SURE we'll see a ton of new scenarios from the community because of how easy the editor is to use.
So here this quote states the existing game in 2014 with the crappy looking art assets has a ton of replay value, and a scenario editor that is easy to use (This would imply that it exists, works, and generates scenarios that work in the game)
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Update #21 Jan 31 2015
Development Updates, Rewards, Finalized Map, Old Ones, Hereos & the Steady March of Assets
Development Progress
As of last week the map is complete on the technical level with in-house alpha assets being shipped out to artists for improvement.
The Map Builder is complete and will be in the hands of Beta Backers this weekend
Did that map builder go out at all? I remember a non-functional asset viewer went out (that he called 'mod tools')
Remember he was still taking pre-orders here.
Here's a post about the "upcoming" beta release: (From november 4 2015, emphasis mine)
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Our up to date list of Stretch Goals that you will be seeing in Beta and their relative state of completion:
Gods and Religions
- Gods and Planes are in and working, but lacking late-game powers and campaigns
- Religions are working but are generally passive at this time, we plan a whole range of upgrades to their content to make them more proactive
- Priest classes are in and work "fine" but a Priest Chosen One tends towards fanaticism (right now Divine Traits bolster religion as a priority and the Chosen One divine path grants excessive divine traits) and is generally terrible leading to the only "easy" game you may have.
- The Inquisition is happy to burn the world
Endless Mode
- The Resistance is in the game but is much less powerful than The Alliance, they currently are most useful at funneling artifacts and relics to sages
- Endless Mode itself won't be available in the beta release but most of the features we added to make it work are in the game
Lesser Evils have three archetypes that will be in the Beta, they currently appear alongside heroes but with a different frame for recognition. They can be recruited and are capable of betraying you, which at this point they are more prone to do than they probably should.
- Hastur is in and is the current most competent of the Rivals as his main goal is to simply prevent any Old One from rising - he will help adventurers against you and send his agents against your own
- Dagon is in and is semi-competent, especially mid-game spreading corruption through Deep One breeding programs, but he currently has terrible late-game AI
- the Elven Emperor and Enoch are both thoroughly incompetent right now and need a lot of work, but their more defining content is in the game so their theme and mechanics are well established
Note the constant talk about stuff "In the game" and "Working". They were still accepting pre-orders at this time. They are describing things in terms of "In the game and working now". That would imply the existence of said game. This sounds like a beta product that isn't perfect, but is capable of being called "A game" that a person could "play".
On february 24, 2016 they removed the pre-order option from their web page, saying that it was because the beta release was imminent.
Here's a collection of Josh quotes, from that same board. Unfortunately I don't know where the originals are, so if anyone knows where these came from it'd be great, because these are the most damning of all.
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Josh said:
I don't think it's a viable strategy but back before KS their was a tester who played Azlan who could reliably "tease out" the Chosen One early almost every time so clearly there's some methods I'm just not savvy enough to uncover.
Josh said:
We have an integrated bug reporting solution as well as deterministic saves to make bugs easier to replicate. All bugs go to one of the "QA Leads" who review to make sure it is a real bug and then update a beta-visible spreadsheet with the relevant information and priority. We will have dedicated threads to discuss less obvious bugs and design decisions.
Josh said:
There are a lot of things we could do to release and finish the product if Josh got hit by a bus tomorrow - but we aren't there yet and I am not ready to go there.
Josh said:
Is it possible to capture/kill/corrupt the chosen one before he was actually revealed to be the chosen one early on in the game?
Yes and this has happened to me more than a few times - considering our spawn for a normal size map is 30 heroes you end up with a decent enough chance of grabbing an early unaware chosen one with multiple playthroughs.
Josh said:
Oh wow what a question. I have so many great Karth stories like right after we added the ability for certain creatures (and Karth) to knock down walls but I had one epic battle with Belial on the seal that lasted for 30+ turns before a highly imbued Rake wounded the Chosen One in open combat. I had to funnel orcs in from every direction, cut off the army from its base with Deep Ones, and bring the giants back from across the sea. Belial's aura continued to trigger horror in attackers denying breakthroughs and after the Chosen One got wounded I triggered an attack, got the breakthrough I needed, and Belial managed to rip the Chosen One to pieces.
Josh said:
Only in games that I'm not really trying to win - however I have lost within moments of winning to an adventurer Chosen One that has NOT rallied the world but instead simply prepared in silence to battle me. As long as you put some effort into identifying and hindering the Chosen One this won't happen but even knowing that (and having played the game hundreds of times) I still sometimes fall into the trap of focusing on my schemes to the detriment of my defenses. If the Chosen One has not publicly appeared it means that he or she is preparing to defeat you by more subtle means, you NEED to react to this.
Josh said:
haha, well they've gone mostly overboard because Desperation isn't well balanced yet. I've seen villages sacrificed to hasten rituals by what were once upstanding and honorable men, kings sacrifice their children to demons to gain some infernal support, elves marrying dwarves to forge alliances, and a Chosen One kill his friends to gain access to their artifacts. The problem right now is that they are a little TOO eager to do these things - I think Desperation is still the perfect AI mechanism but we do need to balance out a little bit how far desperation can "bend" a player's personality. I'd like to have it "pervert" a personality trait rather than simply globally expand thresholds but we'll probably work that out during the beta.
Josh said:
We've had over ten thousand notables pinging properly without any noticeable performance problem, but that's because notables are REACTIVE as opposed to proactive - they mostly sit there and wait for something to occur. Heroes you can have hundreds but you'll start having issues when you get up around 500 or so. Ruler AIs tend to be a problem not so much due to their processes but because the more you add the more each other ruler needs to take into consideration, I would recommend keeping it below 100. The only time I have seen slowdowns in the AI in one of our large games is when massive multiple front wars are taking place, and profiling says it's the commander AIs causing the problem.
Josh said:
The worst heroes are the ones you never see because you ignored them - it still happens to me occasionally when I'm testing a particular feature that I'll forget to look for the Chosen One and he will come a knockin when I'm not ready. However, when playing better I have suffered no end of frustrations from Elven Chosen Ones - they are tough, difficult to corrupt, and they bring the weight of the elven nations behind them. I almost always fall into rallying the humans against them and trying to frustrate their diplomatic advances. I also discovered (I suppose designed?) that the best way to bypass the defenses of a hero is to get them engaged as a commander and engineer a commando breakthrough, I've successfully killed elven and dwarven chosen ones this way though we have since introduced a bodyguard companion type that will negate this at least once.
I've done what everyone knows they're going to do (you know you will, don't deny it) and killed the Chosen One's family, burned their home town, turned their wife into a lich, and turned his friends against him. Definitely worth doing at least once.
Josh said:
What was your best Seraph game like?
I purposefully recruited all the invader types from the North Burns and had my coalition go against the honor bound men of the west allied with the wild tribes. It certainly wasn't the most viable strategy but I wanted to thematically recreate that tension. I didn't actually finish that game because of a bug, but it was a lot of fun to see all the cultural tension triggers going off.
Josh said:
What I want to know is: what's the funniest set of events that's happened to you? IE, even if it was something that completely wrecked your plans, was there anything that just made you laugh?
Nothing gets me as much as the lothario hero that impregnated and married everyone but I already told that story, so it has to be the Peddlar's glorious rise to dictator over New Peddlaria (I named it after a failed previous attempt at making the perfect Peddlar utopia). I wanted to ensure that even the worst Agent could, given proper grooming, become a fixture on the global stage - so I ended up getting the Peddlar a coterie of courtesans including a unique Courtesan which gave him an unearthly bonus to handling city challenges. After his meteoric social rise he befriended and corrupted a few key commanders and then used his persuasion to get them appointed heads of command before declaring a coup. I immediately passed the free trade law because obviously New Peddlaria is pro-peddling but my noble plans were foiled when a loyalist stormed the castle, attacked me, and on his first turn performed an attack that killed every courtesan minion. It was a national day of mourning in New Peddlaria, doubly so because it was quickly rejoined with its parent nation.
So he's talking about alpha testers, multiple full playthroughs, funny stuff that happened in playthroughs, etc. You don't make up all this by accident.
Here's an interesting article from one of the people on that site: http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4505 (http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4505)
That article is well written and lays out the events pretty well. I... don't think you'll want to go elsewhere on that blog, it seems to share a lot of the same fringe politics as RPG codex itself.
Here's the stuff about the OTHER kickstarter Josh was involved in, Stay Out of My Dungeon. http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4769 (http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4769)
This was created by 2HG games, for 2 handsome guys, one of those handsome guys being none other than our Josh! You'll notice similarities such as: Game is claimed to be almost complete, just needs money for art; Lots of weird excuses for delays, etc... Initially the guy behind the game denied knowing Josh at all, then changed his tune and said Josh was just the site owner who the kickstarter was in the name of...
So, once again, if you were defrauded and reside in the US, please contact the FTC, AG, and maybe FBI (quite honestly I don't think you'll get much response there...) Maybe Josh getting a visit from the Feds might be enough for him to realize he should stick to factual claims in the future. Many other countries have better consumer protections than the US, so if you reside in another country, check with your consumer protection agencies.
It's hard enough to get backing for something you're passionate about without people having to worry if you're just lying to them. So please help punish the liars. It's one thing to back a project when the risks are known upfront, but when the project creator outright lies about the risks, it makes it impossible for you to make an informed decision. I don't want to hurt Josh or Joe, frankly, I just want to prevent more of this behavior.
Post by: nenjin on March 26, 2018, 03:52:06 pm
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It's one thing to back a project when the risks are known upfront, but when the project creator outright lies about the risks, it makes it impossible for you to make an informed decision.
The risks are known up front, regardless of what project creator says. Only a fool would back something on Kickstarter on the assumption it's already done.
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http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4505
Ah yes, the guy who had such a hate boner for TWS he got banned from here. We've been through all this before you even got here.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 26, 2018, 04:28:22 pm
Ah, but see, he turned out to be right on the spot after all!Quotehttp://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4505
Ah yes, the guy who had such a hate boner for TWS he got banned from here. We've been through all this before you even got here.
BTW: I hope you all enjoy thesevsweet interviews with KingDinosaurGames concerning TWS
http://www.digitallydownloaded.net/2014/10/interview-king-dinosaur-games.html
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Digitally Downloaded (DD): That Which Sleeps has run a Kickstarter; its release is planned for Q1 2015. What are your priorities between now and then? How intense has this whole development process been thus far?
King Dinosaur (KD): Development has slowed to a crawl because the Kickstarter has taken up so much of our time. At first we thought we'd be working on a demo to release mid KS, but now that we have so many people that opted into Beta access our new priority is to get something into their hands ASAP. So they will follow the transformation and see the game get features and polish added as we go. It should be really fun.
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DD: Seeing that modding being capable of making new guilds, campaigns, old ones, heroes, and so forth is such a crucial component to That Which Sleeps, do you plan on tweaking or adding anything new to the experience post-launch?
KD: It was always our intention to continue to support the development of the game, whether that is best done by us creating additional content or supporting the community remains to be seen, but if you've been following us on forums and in our Kickstarter, you know how excited and engaged we are, and we want people to be enjoying That Which Sleeps for a very long time.
http://www.tacticularcancer.com/content.php?id=4518
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This shit is hilarious.
I think crowdsourcing in general is great for indie developers but I think it comes with a large amount of responsibility too.
We made sure we had some very clearly defined goals and intention for the money we were trying to raise. We asked for a relatively modest amount, and we've been as transparent and responsive as possible to our backers and potential backers.
Post by: birdy51 on March 26, 2018, 04:33:36 pm
Post by: nenjin on March 26, 2018, 04:38:20 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 26, 2018, 04:45:05 pm
An interesting post by a superbacker, as seen in Kickstarter:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Damiac on March 26, 2018, 05:22:57 pm
Wait... so you're saying only a fool would believe the creator's own statements in a kickstarter? How can you back anything then, if only a fool believes what the creator says. How do you even know they're going to make what they said they would, and not just cast themselves in a porn movie? Luckily, the rest of civilization works on the principle that "Lying is wrong" which is why I keep talking about fraud, rather than enthusiastic pitching.QuoteIt's one thing to back a project when the risks are known upfront, but when the project creator outright lies about the risks, it makes it impossible for you to make an informed decision.
The risks are known up front, regardless of what project creator says. Only a fool would back something on Kickstarter on the assumption it's already done.
Quote
You've perhaps heard of the ad-hominem fallacy? Regardless of the qualities of that guy himself (hell I even warned against reading his blog) he's put together a bunch of information in a single place. Do you not trust your own judgements of logic to determine if his conclusions follow from the presented evidence?Quotehttp://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4505
Ah yes, the guy who had such a hate boner for TWS he got banned from here. We've been through all this before you even got here.
I'm not surprised he got banned from here, I'd assume most of the people from RPGcodex would be banned fairly shortly if they started posting here, and maintained the same posting standards.
You say you've been through all this, then fine, so you accept it's fraud? Because if you actually read the stuff from the kickstarter itself, that's what it is. People can collate and analyze the facts all they want, if you just refuse to process that information there's nothing to be done
Post by: SangerZonvolt on March 26, 2018, 05:29:05 pm
Did that map builder go out at all?
It does "exist" in the sense that the mod tools "exist". Itīs called TWS-MB-PC_V0.53. The link in the TWS forum is for its download is still working and leads to this google drive, so you can probably check it out yourself:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B59YMN8hbtu1SXIyOWxDWmZ0UTg/view
However it is nothing more than a broken map drawer. You can add land/sea on it, forrests, hills and rivers. There is a fuction to add cities but it either doesnīt work or I am to stupid to guess which button to push to make it work. Itīs nice as a toold to draw world maps for pen and paper campaigns if you add the cities later manually, but thatīs about it. It doesnt work as intented, and the graphics were dated even back then I believe. Oh, and it also takes an ungodly amount of time to load for what little it actually does (talking about up to 5 minutes here). So yeah, it was about as complete as the mod tools.
Post by: Toady One on March 26, 2018, 05:33:22 pm