Post by: Sensei on July 21, 2015, 05:48:13 am
(Inspired, as were many, by Kingfisher's old weapon design game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125269.0)).
This game has ended, but its sequal has just started! (Apr 29, 2017) Join now! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163937.0)
Here, you will join one of two nations, and attempt to design guns to shoot at the other one.
Arstotzka: Thread! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152115.0)
Moskurg: Thread! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152117.0)
The year is 1910, and these two nations having been warring over the small continent (they both insist that you call it a continent) of Forenia in the south pacific. The British Empire is strong, and the art of war is changing rapidly in America and Europe. Forenia has, in terms of global politics, been mostly irrelevant. The British Empire established a colony on Forenia, quickly subjugating the natives of both countries who wielded swords, bows and metal armor at the time. It was abandoned in time because, even after being conquered, the plantation workers were continuously at each other's throats with knives, farming tools and stolen rifles. In fact, Arstotzka and Moskurg have been at war to conquer the entire continent as long as anyone can remember, and as far back as any history book is written. The reasons for this are much debated, but the debates universally end in fisticuffs. Now that the two nations have regained their sovereignty, they've industrialized, but are back to vying for control of the continent, same as ever.
Gas lamps burn in the streets and smoke from factories fills the sky over cities. You are meeting around a drawing board, in an office above the factory floor. After a while of stalemate fighting, the old weapons design team has been
THE NATIONS
Arstotzka resides in the cold south of Forenia, much of which is frozen taiga. Moskurg has its capital in the hot sands on the north end of Forenia. In between them is a range of mountains, through which passage is difficult by foot or horse, and there is no train track. Around the mountains to the west is a warm, wet jungle region, terminating in swamps rather than beaches. To the east are relatively exposed plains, some areas including trenches that have been in place since the colonial war. Train tracks lead through here, straight from Arstotzka's capitol to Moskurg's, when they aren't blockaded, which they currently are. The sea all around is prone to sudden and treacherous storms that make naval excursions risky, and threaten any ship not in a bay (there is one on the north, south, and west sides of Forenia each). Therefore, ships can only operate in zones adjacent to a friendly bay.
Each region in Forenia has four sections of ground (including an East, West, and Central Desert and Taiga, for a total of 9 regions). A region is controlled when a faction has gained all four sections, and holds them for a turn.
Map of Forenia:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For reference the current state of the art technology in Europe and the Americas is this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Arstotzka starts with the following weapons and resources:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg starts with the following weapons and resources:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
RULES OF THE GAME
Updated as of 1924 turn, based on testing and arguing.
In either nation's thread, you may suggest what to do each turn, and vote in favor other suggestions. Please stick to one nation, nobody likes a turncoat! Turns occur in two phases:
-In the Design Phase, you may suggest a new product (EG a brand new machinegun). I will secretly roll some dice, and depending how ambitious your new project is, I will assign an Expense to it, and possibly introduce Bugs. If you want, you can simply revise an old project instead of making a new one.
-Once you've seen the results of your efforts, we move to the Revision Phase- you can try to reduce the expense, remove bugs, or add features to a product (EG make the machinegun stop jamming, or making a new, carbine version of a rifle). This doesn't have to be the product you started in the first phase, if you're happy with it.
-Then the fighting happens! I'll provide a description of who has the advantage on which fronts, and roll some dice. Resources will be gained and lost sometimes. The next year will start, and we will move to a new Design phase.
Sometimes, you might earn a Design Credit or a Revision Credit, which will allow you one extra design or revision action in one turn.
Expense: Regular equipment can be given to everyone in your army. If a piece of equipment is difficult to produce, it has expense levels: 1 is Expensive, 2 is Very Expensive, and 3 is A National Effort. It doesn't matter how many different types you have, as you'll still only be making a total number of guns enough to equip everyone. Inexpensive equipment could be given to every soldier, if you want. Cheap vehicles means everyone can ride around in one instead of marching. Expensive equipment can be given to officers, or one per squad (5-10 soldiers). Expensive Vehicles means a pretty good number can be used for support. Very Expensive equipment can be used by special squads only, about 1 in 100 soldiers. Very Expensive vehicles are few and far between on the battlefield, or there are only a couple squads in total. Your nation can only deploy one National Effort at a time. It had better be an aircraft carrier, or a nuke, or a giant walking robot if you want this to be worth it. If you have multiple weapons at a price tier, then soldiers/squads choose one for the situation. Some weapons, EG crewed machine guns and artillery, don't benefit much from being Inexpensive because there aren't many situations where you'd want everyone using one.
You might gain an Expense Credit for a certain type of unit, reducing the expense by 1- for example, if High Command desperately wants an airplane, they'll offer an expense credit for it, which might reduce your new bomber from A National Effort to Very Expensive. Monetary gains from trade will be represented this way.
The expense of equipment is determined when you design it. The more new features, or the more ambitious, the more likely it is to be expensive. You can attempt to reduce the expense when revising equipment- this might introduce bugs, or it might permanently reduce the expense of that technology.
Resources: You can gain more Ore and Oil by gaining territory, and by designing better general transportation (trains, trucks and boats). If you lose it and a product becomes more expensive, then soldiers will cease to use it as they run out of ammo/replacement parts.
For example, a car might cost Ore 3, Oil 2. If your nation has Ore 2, Oil 1, a product which costs Ore 3, Oil 2 gains an expense level, because you're short 2 resources. If you're short 3 or more resources, it gains two expense levels (Very Expensive). If it's also Complex, that's three expense levels (A National Effort). Something that costs 6 or more resources than you have gains three expense levels right away (A National Effort). If something adds up to 4 or more expense levels, it is Theoretical and cannot actually be built. Ore represents total mining effort, so if you have a gun made of a rare or difficult to mine metal (let's say titanium) it might have an ore cost of 2 or 3 despite being only a rifle. If a large truck can be made mostly from low-quality steel, it might be cheaper. For now I'm ignoring train cost and assuming that new technologies are either cost effective or considered failures automatically.
The following resources are available in Forenia:
Each area must be completely controlled, except for the mountains, where the resources are located (relatively) close to the base on either side.
Desert: 2 oil, 1 ore
Mountains: 2 ore, 1 each side
Jungle: 1 ore, 1 oil
Plains: 1 ore, 1 oil
Taiga: 1 oil, 2 ore
There is a catch! Transport capacity. Oil and ore need to be moved back to the capitol for refining. At the start of the game each faction had a train system which supported a total of 3 resources, and has upgraded to 4 since then.
Espionage: Each nation has one spy. That spy has one action a year, and does the first thing PM'd to me or with the most votes if multiple people do suggest the same thing. Spies require a D6 dice roll (default about 50% chance) to do their work, and counter-intelligence prompts an opposed roll. If the counter-intelligence spy wins by 2, they kill the other spy, who won't be replaced for a year. Counter intelligence only works against spies who are doing something, spies taking no action are safe. Sometimes nations may be awarded an Espionage Credit, allowing your spy to act twice.
The war is over. We have come to the epilogue. Here is an index of our latest turns: (Thanks, Happerry)
1910 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6391542#msg6391542)
1911 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6392757#msg6392757)
1912 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6393888#msg6393888)
1913 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6396473#msg6396473)
1914 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6397622#msg6397622)
1915 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6398772#msg6398772)
1916 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6401306#msg6401306)
1917 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6404255#msg6404255)
1918 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6405886#msg6405886)
1919 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6409285#msg6409285)
1920 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6411846#msg6411846)
1921 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6413978#msg6413978)
1922 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6416161#msg6416161)
1923 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6418569#msg6418569)
1924 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6421626#msg6421626)
1925 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6423848#msg6423848)
1926 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6426315#msg6426315)
1927 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6432689#msg6432689)
1927 Civilian Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6430598#msg6430598)
1928 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6436423#msg6436423)
1929 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6444462#msg6444462)
Interim Turn Announcements (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6447337#msg6447337)
1930 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6451619#msg6451619)
1931 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6470300#msg6470300)
1932 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6475133#msg6475133)
1933 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6488958#msg6488958)
1934 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6497646#msg6497646)
1935 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6503535#msg6503535) Final Battle Report
The September Peace Summit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6503588#msg6503588)
The Battle of the Embassy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6506999#msg6506999)
Epilogue: A New Constitution (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6508959#msg6508959)
Epilogue: The Future of Forenia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6625131#msg6625131)
The Next Game: Intercontinental Arms Race (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163937.0)
War Museum
Obsolete Equipment is listed here.
Spoiler: Arstotzka (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Moskurg (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 21, 2015, 08:58:17 am
Though the cheap, expensive, very expensive system seems a bit simplistic. I mean, how do you deal with anything that isn't an infantry weapon.
Post by: TopHat on July 21, 2015, 10:18:05 am
Post by: Sensei on July 21, 2015, 09:08:31 pm
Edit: I originally wrote this July 21. Man, this is funny in retrospect because I rewrote most of the rules over the course of most of the game.
Post by: Andres on July 22, 2015, 04:43:36 am
Metric system best system. Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 22, 2015, 05:06:06 am
Post by: Andres on July 22, 2015, 05:10:40 am
Same goes for Ore and Oil.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 22, 2015, 02:22:56 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 22, 2015, 03:31:13 pm
Anyway, just for confirmation, does Moksburg start without the capability to produce anything?No, I actually meant to remove the factory from both Arstotzka's entry and Moskurg's entry, but I only removed it from Moskurg. I'm dropping that system of complexity in favor of one where individual technologies used are expensive, and can be made cheaper by revising them. I might also try making technologies become less expensive once you've been using them for 3-5 years. I'm also amending the tech list to include that.
I'm just watching for now but the link to the OOC on the Arstotzka thread is broken.Fixed this.
Post by: Andres on July 22, 2015, 05:58:01 pm
Post by: Knave on July 22, 2015, 10:46:26 pm
This is really cool btw!
Post by: Andres on July 22, 2015, 11:11:06 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 12:23:30 am
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 12:34:48 am
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 12:39:27 am
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 12:45:27 am
A: Fire a Horsekiller into the air. Who is still standing STRONK is a MOSKURGIAN.
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 01:18:50 am
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 01:44:27 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 03:15:08 am
Quote
Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.Good lord.
From what I understand we're an arms designer, meaning we design weapons. Do we only do that or do we basically control all military technology, including armour?In addition to firearms, you will be responsible for armor and vehicles. Of course, for now you can only do one project each year, so choose wisely.
1910 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg starts with the following weapons and resources:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1910 was an impressive year for both countries. Both successfully designed machineguns, though infantry are mostly armed with single-shot weapons. The AS-1910 is a sensible belt-fed machinegun, suitable for emplacements, and operated by a crew. It suffers from a little bit of difficult operation due to heat. The M1 Stallion is an enormous machinegun firing the less sensible .60 caliber round. It has to be drawn behind a horse, so it's less mobile, and it also has a low rate of fire. However, it has more effective range and some ability to penetrate cover. The Arstotzkans also introduce the Nosin Single, an accurate, simple, bolt action rifle for general infantry use without the Nosin-Magant's magazine. The Moskurgians also created the Model 52 steam engine, converting their old engines to oil burners.
The war continues on all fronts.
In the east, on the wide-open plains, the sudden availability of both sides to deploy machine guns ruins the previously favored tactics of infantry lines and cavalry charges, on both sides. Fights stall to trench warfare. Over the no-man's land, Arstotzkan soldiers have an advantage due to their ability to deploy more machineguns, and hide them in sandbags. Arstotzkans gain ground by disabling Stallion crews, and then charging forward. Within trenches, the swords and shotguns of Moskurg soldiers gives a tremendous advantage. Many Arstotzkans die due in close combat to their unreliable sidearms. The Arstotzkans gain ground, overall, until hitting areas of abandoned british colonial towns. Fighting building to building, Moskurg's sword-n-shotgun soldiers have the advantage, and the M1 Stallion can easily kill soldiers hiding behind brick walls. The AS-1910's advantage in rapidity of fire is diminished somewhat as crews sometimes have to wait for hot barrels to cool down.
In the mountains, engagements happen at longer ranges, and both sides have difficulty deploying machineguns. Arstotzkans favor the tactic of ambushing enemies at range, and the Nosin Single gives common soldiers the advantage over Moskurgians wielding less accurate Horsekiller rifles. Both sides have difficulty deploying machine guns here, so battles for mines almost always go to the defending faction, who have the advantage of an established road.
In the west, in the warm jungle, both sides have reliability issues. The Stallion M1 has a tendency to get its wagon stuck in the mud, and the AS-1910 and Nosin-Magant tend to jam in the heat. There is not much fighting here, but a small advantage goes to Moskurg.
On the Moskurg homefront, the new Model 52 oil burning steam engine is proving more economical to operate due to the wide availability of oil. However, nearly every operational Model 52 eventually suffers a cabin fire due to an emergency pressure value which spilled oil into the cabin, instead of out of the train, having been assembled backwards. Moskurg will not gain any additional ore for 1911.
The 1911 Design Phase has begun.
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 03:22:44 am
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 03:29:02 am
Is this a bad roll for the model 52 or will it rectify itself?This is a problem the Model 52 will continue to suffer from until it is revised.
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 03:31:38 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 03:35:07 am
Not our faults you silly Muscovites hooked up the steam whistle to the oil line.
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 03:38:19 am
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 04:07:00 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 04:10:52 am
How does escalation of resource costs work? I mean, Artztoska has 1 oil, meaning that anything which uses more than 1 oil becomes expensive. So a locomotive, which would require Oil 3 (locomotives are bigger than car), would then be expensive, or very expensive? And does it escalate past that?
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 04:18:24 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 04:19:57 am
Since Moskurg gets no Ore, does that mean they can't build anything? Does it mean that everything becomes more Expensive?Moskburg still has one Ore. We haven't taken their mines yet.
But it does mean they can't actually build anything for their common soldiers that's larger than a small sidearm/simple gun. Moskburg still uses breechloaders, after all.
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 04:22:29 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 04:31:20 am
To be fair, so does arstotzka.Oh yes right. Somehow I'd assumed you used muzzle loading, then confused the terminology.
Interestingly, Moskburg never developed muzzle loading technology. Strange people.
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 04:52:02 am
MOSKURG STRONK. REMOVE arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 05:08:23 am
Gains and losses of oil and ore, due to territory, will take a little more ground gained than we have so far. Your geologists will figure out what there is to take from the ground when they can do it without being shot. I guess I'm just a "start making guns up now, sort out the rules later" kind of guy. :P
Moskurg doesn't have the muzzle-loader technology listed because nothing uses it. It would be trivial (being simpler than tech you already had) to implement if you really wanted. For now, I'll not have it clutter up the list.
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 04:42:35 pm
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1911 saw both countries introduce artillery, with the Moskurgians opting for a howitzer while the Arstotzkans built a small mortar that can be deployed easily. Both countries spent their revision phases preventing stuff from exploding.
The fighting is fiercest in the eastern plains. The sudden arrival of artillery from both sides means that soldiers in trenches are no longer as safe as they were. In many places, the no-man's land widens as soldiers retreat out of artillery range. When this happens, the superior range of Moskurg's bigger, scarier artillery gives them a decisive advantage. Arstotzkan troops depend on assaulting Moskurg artillery to make gains, but the the Moskurgians defend their trenches too well. Casualties in general are horrendous for both sides, with soldiers being killed by small fragments of artillery shells far from where the shells land. Moskurg regains their ground.
In the mountains, artillery is only effective where soldiers can be spotted. Arstotzkan soldiers favor a tactic of sneaking a small mortar crew within range of Moskurg encampments, firing several shells, and then relocating. Arstotzkan soldiers have the advantage away from encampments as well due to their rifles, and encounters between scouting parties usually go in their favor. Arstotzka gains ground.
In the west, the jungle provides good cover from artillery, enemies can't be seen from a long distance. Arstotzka's portable mortars see some use here, but the Moskurg advantage is close ambushes keeps the fighting at a stalemate.
In Moskurg, the improved trains gain 1 ore. Most noticeably, this will decrease the M1 Stallion from being Very Expensive to Expensive next year.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 04:53:55 pm
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 05:50:31 pm
Darn, I'd hoped that the ubiquity of our mortars compared to the relative rarity of their guns would have helped.
Confused the Stallion with their artillery.
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 06:37:10 pm
Perhaps arstotzka should hire crybabies instead of proper SOLDIERS which MOSKURG fields.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 06:48:24 pm
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 06:51:54 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2015, 06:54:16 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 23, 2015, 06:54:42 pm
Also, moscraps? Arsetotzkan humor is so lowbrow they must immediately revert to crude humour rather than superior Moskurg humour based on proper wordplay.
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 06:57:12 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 07:41:42 pm
No but you seeing it is accurate because you are so stink. Wow! Biggest threat to GLORIOUS Arstotzkan trench soldiers is wind sending of worst Moskurgan stink to Arstotzka lines. Disgraceful.Typical arstotzkian lowball who can't joke without resorting to human excretion.
Perhaps arstotzkian shit smells that bad so they believe it's the same all around.
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 07:47:42 pm
Anyway, I'll do the 1912 battle report tonight, but it will be a few hours. Combat bonus to whichever faction has the best national anthem! One submission only per person, please.
Post by: evilcherry on July 23, 2015, 07:53:25 pm
Post by: Dampe on July 23, 2015, 08:18:54 pm
MOSKURG STRONK. REMOVE arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 08:18:58 pm
Post by: Funk on July 23, 2015, 08:35:50 pm
Post by: Andres on July 23, 2015, 09:50:15 pm
Anyway, I'll do the 1912 battle report tonight, but it will be a few hours. Combat bonus to whichever faction has the best national anthem! One submission only per person, please.Maybe there can be a combat bonus to whichever country has the best
Post by: Happerry on July 23, 2015, 11:30:54 pm
...Well, at least this game isn't going to die any time soon!
Post by: Sensei on July 23, 2015, 11:51:53 pm
Heh, I thought of doing that. We'll probably do flags first.Anyway, I'll do the 1912 battle report tonight, but it will be a few hours. Combat bonus to whichever faction has the best national anthem! One submission only per person, please.Maybe there can be a combat bonus to whichever country has the bestfanartpropaganda?
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 12:07:42 am
Didn't you already design the flags, though? Blue with a scimitar for Moskurg and scarlet with a gold star for Arstotzka.Heh, I thought of doing that. We'll probably do flags first.Anyway, I'll do the 1912 battle report tonight, but it will be a few hours. Combat bonus to whichever faction has the best national anthem! One submission only per person, please.Maybe there can be a combat bonus to whichever country has the bestfanartpropaganda?
Post by: Taricus on July 24, 2015, 12:22:34 am
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 12:32:25 am
You might want to save all the bonuses until it's established we have artists on both sides personally :PI have zero art skill but I still managed to make a comic. Paint's useful like that.
Spoiler: Original Arstotzkan Anthem (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on July 24, 2015, 03:11:42 am
Didn't you already design the flags, though? Blue with a scimitar for Moskurg and scarlet with a gold star for Arstotzka.That would be the uniforms. For all I know, Arstotzka's flag is a dead penguin hanging from a flagpole, and not even a piece of cloth.
You might want to save all the bonuses until it's established we have artists on both sides personally :PIn times of war, sacrifices must be made.
Arstotzka, Arstotzka, of shining snowArstotzka's soldiers are inspired. Glory to Arstotzka. Arstotzkan man knows, a good anthem is one where 36.4% of words are country name.
Arstotzka, Arstotzka, of biting cold
Arstotzka, the wonderful
Arstotzka, the powerful
Arstotzka, Arstotzka, with soul of gold!
1912 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In 1912, Arstotzka introduced some proper artillery to counter Moskurg's- on paper, the AS-1912 has very similar performance to the Bombardier. General infantry weapons improved as well, with Arstotzka finally sorting out magazines for the general troops and Moskurg improving their Horsekiller's accuracy to make it a little more practical. Also the Moskurg flamethrower program went up in... well, I'll refrain from making puns, out of the respect for the dead.
The fighting in the plains is the fiercest, as usual. Deaths outside of machinegun range increase, as both sides are becoming more effective with their general rifles, but the Arstotzkans do far better for their bolt-action, magazine rifles. AS-1912's roll into range to bombard masses of Moskurg troops. Unfortunately, when fired, many AS-1912's suffer from ruptured brass casings, jamming the old case into the weapon and sometimes requiring a full day of work to remove. The problem seems to only exist when the AS-1912 is fired outside of cold weather, but seems like the quality of the shells is a peculiarly poor design choice. The Moskurg advance is very slow, due to the ubiquity of small mortar fire threatening troops in the open field, but their artillery advantage still gives them control over the battlefield, and they gain ground. Some Moskurg soldiers see their first frost.
In the mountains, the Nosin-Magant reigns supreme. Some very skilled Moskurg officers can out-range them with their Horsekiller's large cartridges, but the typical Arstotzkan has better accuracy and can fire five times, reload, and get on target again by the time a Moskurg has fired once and locked a new cartridge in the breach. Some Moskurgians adopt a doctrine of shooting once and running away. It is a shameful time. Three times as many Stallions are used to defend mines, but the mines are frequently subject to shelling from AS-1911 mortars. This marks the second wave of deaths for Moskurg train conductors. The Moskurg gain in ore is lost.
In the jungle, artillery and machineguns which can be moved without a horse grant an advantage to Arstotzka, and the Nosin-Magant tips rifle fights in their favor. The use of the stolen sawed-off shotgun design doesn't hurt either. Arstotzka makes good headway into the jungle, and establishes small forts with wooden palisades from which they command what they can see with machineguns and mortars. Some common soldiers are seen wielding two pistols at once while assaulting the Moskurgs. It isn't very effective.
Back in the capitols, both Moskurg and Arstotzka are seeing electric lightbulbs light homes. Power generation is performed by the respective glorious government. Engineers will be issued one (1) electric lamp to light their drawing boards. Begin designing, without the fear that an oil lamp will overturn and burn all your blueprints!
Post by: Sheb on July 24, 2015, 03:17:00 am
Also, is the train conductor death due to mortar fire or another factor?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 24, 2015, 03:19:20 am
Post by: Sensei on July 24, 2015, 03:23:17 am
Also, is the train conductor death due to mortar fire or another factor?Mortar fire, this time they're being killed from outside the cabin.
The Stallion and Howitzer are, indeed, now rendered Very Expensive.
I'm also drafting up some rules to codify resource gains and the value of trains in a little notepad document, which I might post tonight.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 24, 2015, 03:33:36 am
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 03:45:13 am
Post by: Taricus on July 24, 2015, 03:47:05 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 24, 2015, 03:52:50 am
In addition, avalanches are only a problem if you get really high. I doubt we're fighting in the snow, considering your troops aren't dying of frostbite, and your trains are capable of getting up there.
Another reason for effectivity is that we're firing against rock, not mud. Mud absorbs the shell, reducing the impact. Rock becomes deadly shrapnel.
Post by: Sheb on July 24, 2015, 03:55:34 am
Post by: Taricus on July 24, 2015, 03:57:04 am
Furthermore, while there is cold weather engineering, I'd say that applies to the equipment, not the training of the troops.
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 04:05:18 am
Glorious Arstotzkans fire at snow shelves above cowrdly Moksburgian, encasing their effeminate bodies in ice!Basically this. Even if loud noises did make avalanches, the mortar's payload would cause more avalanches, making it worse for Moskurg.
That ensuress the mines are unable to be taken though, and impedes movement through the area given the thick snow. a little counterproductive.You're saying Arstotzkans aren't good at fighting in snow? Now you're just grasping at straws.
Furthermore, while there is cold weather engineering, I'd say that applies to the equipment, not the training of the troops.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 24, 2015, 04:09:22 am
Post by: Taricus on July 24, 2015, 04:11:22 am
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 04:14:59 am
Honestly, I'm quite certain these mountains simply don't have snow. It's never been mentioned, and the battle post mentions that the first Moskurg soldiers to encounter frost are those breaking through on the plains.Actually, it only says that some Moskurg soldiers see their first frost, so that could mean that the Mountain guys have seen frost but no the Plains and Jungle guys.
Yeah. Either way, what I'm saying is that Arstotzkans aren't capable (Or more capable than anyone else) of fighting on mountains. And you'd still have to worry about rockslides too.So you're saying we're just as capable as Moskurg, right? If so, we'd still win simply from having more and better equipment. Mountains are pretty cold so our equipment would still work well there, unlike the Plains or the Jungle where it's warmer.
Post by: Sensei on July 24, 2015, 04:20:18 am
Here's some tentative resource rules:
Each area must be completely controlled, except for the mountains, where the resources are located (relatively) close to the base on either side.
Desert: 2 oil, 1 ore
Mountains: 2 ore, 1 each side
Jungle: 1 ore, 1 oil
Plains: 1 ore, 1 oil
Taiga: 1 oil, 2 ore
There is a catch! Transport capacity. Oil and ore need to be moved back to the capitol for refining. The Moskurg updated trains can carry a total of 4 resources (eg 2 oil and 2 ore, or 3 oil and 1 ore). The Arstotzkan trains carry only 3, but of course there's room for upgrades. After that, upgrades will be available scarcely going forward.
I'm debating whether or not this system sucks still.
Post by: Parsely on July 24, 2015, 03:32:41 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 24, 2015, 05:10:31 pm
A number of semiautomatic, magazine-fed pistols saw use as early as 1897, with some like the M1911 pistol in use today. Why is it that it took until 1936 for the M1 Garand to become the first standard-issue semiautomatic rifle? Even the advanced German army had mostly bolt-action rifles and a limited availability of semiautomatic rifles in WWII.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 24, 2015, 05:16:51 pm
Post by: Funk on July 24, 2015, 05:48:39 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 24, 2015, 06:03:33 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 24, 2015, 06:51:48 pm
I have a question which might come to affect the difficulty of building new weapons:Squad vs. squad, the Garand didn't offer US rifle sections a huge advantage over armies equipped with bolt-actions, and mostly everyone was, during that war. The rate of fire, when trying to be accurate, is actually mostly comparable (shoot, then spend half a second reacquiring; the bolt only adds moments onto that). If the rifle gave the Americans an advantage, it would've been when they wanted to put down withering fire, since you could hammer off a bunch of rounds without needing to worry terribly about where they went.
A number of semiautomatic, magazine-fed pistols saw use as early as 1897, with some like the M1911 pistol in use today. Why is it that it took until 1936 for the M1 Garand to become the first standard-issue semiautomatic rifle? Even the advanced German army had mostly bolt-action rifles and a limited availability of semiautomatic rifles in WWII.
Most leaders were scared that giving their men guns that cycled automatically would cause them to waste all their ammo in the first five minutes of a battle, so even though the technology was very readily available and could be made to work well (it's not hard to turn a bolt-action into a semi-auto once it's already got a magazine well), military authorities at the time were very skeptical of the idea.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 24, 2015, 07:52:26 pm
Post by: Elfeater on July 24, 2015, 08:15:30 pm
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2015, 08:20:44 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 24, 2015, 08:23:25 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 24, 2015, 08:24:01 pm
Post by: tryrar on July 25, 2015, 03:16:08 am
Post by: Happerry on July 25, 2015, 03:21:55 am
...And even so, our machine gun can kill vehicles, and yours is a wimpy man's toy gun once the armor shows up.
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 03:27:49 am
Hey Mosburg guys, let me clue you in on something: a .60 cal shell is 15.24mm, or about only 5mm smaller than your standard autocannon round. Basically, anything over a .50 is better considered an autocannon caliber, and you could argue even a .50(which is 12.7mm or so) could be considered autocannon sized if you stretch the definition. Basically, you guys designed an overengineered, oversized kludge of a weapon and we thank you for it, since you'll never field it in large amounts :PActually, every Moskurger is armed with a .60 cal Horsekiller rifle.
...And even so, our machine gun can kill vehicles, and yours is a wimpy man's toy gun once the armor shows up.If you can even survive that long. We're winning in the Jungle and the Mountains, your offensive on the Plains will be stalled due to the increased costs of machine guns and artillery, and the only thing preventing us from making gains in the Plains is something that can be solved with a quick Revision.
Post by: tryrar on July 25, 2015, 03:33:48 am
Hey Mosburg guys, let me clue you in on something: a .60 cal shell is 15.24mm, or about only 5mm smaller than your standard autocannon round. Basically, anything over a .50 is better considered an autocannon caliber, and you could argue even a .50(which is 12.7mm or so) could be considered autocannon sized if you stretch the definition. Basically, you guys designed an overengineered, oversized kludge of a weapon and we thank you for it, since you'll never field it in large amounts :PActually, every Moskurger is armed with a .60 cal Horsekiller rifle.
And it's a single-shot breechloading rifle IIRC, making it almost a relic of the 1800s :P. Doesn't matter if you kill one guy with your first shot if his buddies kill you and your buddies in the time it takes to reload, which goes to show bigger isn't always better(just ask the Germans about how their heavy tank program went :P)
Post by: adwarf on July 25, 2015, 03:44:09 am
You know you're being rather cocky when pretty much the entirety of human history is riddled with great wars that ended in comebacks. The Second Punic War, the Sengoku Jidai period, Napoleon's creation of the French Empire and subsequent fall after standing through two coalition wars, World War 1, World War 2, etc.Hey Mosburg guys, let me clue you in on something: a .60 cal shell is 15.24mm, or about only 5mm smaller than your standard autocannon round. Basically, anything over a .50 is better considered an autocannon caliber, and you could argue even a .50(which is 12.7mm or so) could be considered autocannon sized if you stretch the definition. Basically, you guys designed an overengineered, oversized kludge of a weapon and we thank you for it, since you'll never field it in large amounts :PActually, every Moskurger is armed with a .60 cal Horsekiller rifle....And even so, our machine gun can kill vehicles, and yours is a wimpy man's toy gun once the armor shows up.If you can even survive that long. We're winning in the Jungle and the Mountains, your offensive on the Plains will be stalled due to the increased costs of machine guns and artillery, and the only thing preventing us from making gains in the Plains is something that can be solved with a quick Revision.
Not trying to be hateful I'm just saying don't assume you're ever going to win, and then only accept victory after your standing in the ashes of whatever used to makeup their country.
EDIT:
Also -
... (just ask the Germans about how their heavy tank program went :P)Their heavy tank program actually went extremely well, the reason it failed in the end was because they were already losing the war, and even with that they still made some very impressive achievements. In fact the King Tiger (also called the Tiger 2) has some extremely impressive combat records for instance the Tiger IIs of the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion managed to kill something like 130 Soviet tanks, and several hundred AT guns during the period it was deployed in the Hungarian theater. Essentially the Tiger IIs dominated tank warfare for years during WW2, and to even have a decent chance of guaranteeing a kill Allied or Russian forces had to ambush or swarm them in enough numbers to get a few around behind to the weaker armor.
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 03:54:52 am
Not trying to be hateful I'm just saying don't assume you're ever going to win, and then only accept victory after your standing in the ashes of whatever used to makeup their country.Right, this should be IC. *clears throat*
Poor most ignorant Moskurgan. Not knowing when of losing is so sad. But must be of ignorant or you cry like babies if knowing how much lose to glorious Arstotzkan military might. We take clay in Mountains, we take clay in Jungles, going to take clay in Plains next year. Arstotzka most stronk country and Moskurg most worst country.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on July 25, 2015, 03:58:16 am
Quote
Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.Whatever you guys just posted, I haven't read it yet.
Alright, time for another year!
I've been debating on how to balance progress. Currently what I've been doing is judging by the state of real firearms (and your current ones) how much of a leap in value and complexity the new weapon is. Then, failed dice rolls and the fact you can only perform one research a turn keeps progress in check- I planned on adding more research offices when you guys had too many different things going on at once to keep up. If I base it entirely on how technically difficult it would be for you to implement the new gun, then you have a huge advantage compared to your real life counterparts because you know what firearms are going to be useful since you already had history to look at- in real life, development is slowed by the exploration of designs which turn out to be impractical, or the fear of that. So, do you think I should continue to weigh by historical prevalence, or allow you guys a bit of prescience in terms of military doctrine? The only thing stopping you from employing semiautomatic weapons for your entire army by 1920 would be the fact that you need to research weapons for your entire military (eg artillery, vehicles, grenades, trains) one at a time, and the occasional bad die roll. You would probably make some irrational jumps towards modern firearms, but at least we can argue that makes some sense because unlike real countries, you are permanently at war.
Okay, enough of that nonsense, how about a battle report?
1913 Battle Phase
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This year shows some interesting advances. The Moskurg army has finally developed the sensible .30 caliber Model 1 Service Rifle, a weapon which is gives them approximate parity with the Nosin-Magant. They also shrunk the M1 Stallion down to carry through the mountains, though the metal supply remains scarce. Arstotzka introduced a lightly armored uniform, with an attempt at camouflage largely nullified by the insistence of high command that soldiers wear flags on their heads. Not flag patches, but actual little flags on sticks. Arstotzka also sorted out the issues with their artillery.
As ever, the most important fighting rages on in the plains. Arstotzkan artillery now rains shells over Moskurg trenches, and threatens any Moskurg commanders with cheeky ideas about pushing their artillery forward. The new armor means that far less Arstotzkans die to artillery (which remains one of the biggest threats to infantry) when charging between trenches. The stolen shotgun designs also help when attacking enemy artillery emplacements. The new armor occasionally succeeds in protecting from buckshot. The new Model 1 rifle employed by the Moskurg army, however, picks up a lot of the stallions' slack in defending against charges, and they keep the advantage in trench fighting as well. Ultimately, however, the AS-1911 mortar continues to show great value as a weapon to allow infantry to attack machinegun emplacements from cover. Arstotzka gains ground.
In the mountains, the new Model 1 service rifle proves very effective compared to the breech-loading Horsekiller, although a number of skilled Moskurg sharpshooters continue to prefer the .60 round. The more portable stallion sees occasional use here, and its range gives it an advantage over the Arstotzka machine gun. However, the expense of deploying these weapons means they still do not have a very big effect on the sharp-shooting oriented combat here. Arstotzka attacks the mines on the north side of the mountains too frequently for Moskurg to use them.
In the jungle, the new, more portable Stallion earns a fearsome reputation, punching through smaller trees and wooden palisades. However, it's just not seen very commonly compared to the AS-1910. The Model 1 Service Rifle proves a boon here, however. The fighting is ultimately a stalemate. Arstotzkan soldiers in little forts complain of the heat, spend hours cleaning mud from their weapons, and rarely are killed by tigers.
In the capitol of Arstotzka, one late night, a man exits the Bureau of Weapons Research by the back entrance. He is wearing a long overcoat, strapped tight, and hides under a wide-brimmed hat. Most importantly, he carries a large brief case, and walks through the snowy street avoiding the light of the street lamps. The briefcase contains one AS-1911 mortar and three mortar shells, as well as a folder of documents on their manufacture. He scurries through back alleys, down the road, and cuts into the woods. Precisely ten minutes after having closed the briefcase, a rigged mortar shell explodes. The game of espionage has seen its first casualty.
At home in each country, a telephone line has been installed in the research office, leading directly to the palace. As visits to the palace are no longer necessary to receive orders, all engineers' palace buffet passes have been revoked.
Let the 1914 designs begin!
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 04:02:49 am
Post by: adwarf on July 25, 2015, 04:03:24 am
rarely are killed by tigers.I have some form of telepathy, or foresight apparently. :v
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 04:09:16 am
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 07:04:41 am
The Stallion and Howitzer are, indeed, now rendered Very Expensive.The Howitzer is still noted as merely expensive.
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 07:42:50 am
I'm also wondering if the start of WWI is going to have any effect on Forenia. Maybe the great powers will be interested in glorious Arstotzkan mortar and armour? ;D
Post by: tryrar on July 25, 2015, 07:51:17 am
Can I ask what Moskurg did during the Revise phase? I'm just a bit curious because it only seems like they used their Design phase.
I'm also wondering if the start of WWI is going to have any effect on Forenia. Maybe the great powers will be interested in glorious Arstotzkan mortar and armour? ;D
They attempted to lighten the stallion enough that it could be humped by a group of people instead of needing that ridiculous carriage(plus, you know, reducing its cost). They were...only partially successful really; they didn't really decrease the cost, and while it can be taken apart and carried by a squad, they'll be complaining about it. Hence designing a .30 cal machine gun rather than an undersized autocannon :P
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 08:14:22 am
Are the Moskurgian revolvers .30 cal?
Post by: Iituem on July 25, 2015, 08:18:14 am
Quote
-Five-Shooter: General infantry sidearm. A five-shot revolver firing large 30 caliber rounds. Single-action, with a lot of kick and trigger pull, means it has poor accuracy, but good killing power against infantry.
Looks like they are! Also yes, probably shouldn't look at the enemy thread.
Post by: evilcherry on July 25, 2015, 11:36:07 am
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 25, 2015, 12:00:10 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 25, 2015, 01:02:02 pm
Also, if you want to see the full list of enemy weapons, they're in every battle report. I have, as people have noted before, sometimes failed to keep it perfectly updated, but it should serve as a list of what your soldiers are fighting against in the field.
Post by: Playergamer on July 25, 2015, 03:13:24 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 25, 2015, 03:35:25 pm
The Browning was a .60 cal so not exactly autocannons. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zCEDBtZ0U)
Thats 50cal. The only cannon worked on by Browning was the M4, and that was 37mm...
Also, fromwhat I remember about whats a cannon and whats not, anything up to and including 50cal is not a cannon, while anything over 50cal is.
Post by: Elfeater on July 25, 2015, 03:37:04 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 25, 2015, 03:39:10 pm
Manly enough for you?
Post by: Elfeater on July 25, 2015, 03:56:09 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 04:01:52 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 25, 2015, 04:30:19 pm
1914 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Arstotzka has made its first clumsy stabs at introducing a semiautomatic service rifle, but it leaves much to be desired. They've also modernized their steam trains. Moskurg has caught up with Arstotzka in the uniforms department (complete with unnecessarily glorious accessories) and also introduced the M2 Brumby, a revolutionary light machine gun. In addition to being light, it's also cheaper than their stallion.
The fighting in the plains continues as ever. The M2 Brumby is seen lining trenches, filling a similar role to Arstotzka's machine gun. Its enhanced mobility is enjoyed by the soldiers, but it's still heavy enough that it isn't normally part of charges or trench fighting. The AS-F14 is a versatile weapon, the Arstotzkans use it both in and out of the trenches, almost replacing their pistol entirely. It semi-automatic fire and small size mean that it works in trench fighting and charges. It's also better at intercepting charging soldiers compared to the Nosin. However, it usually needs to be cleaned before a full day of fighting is over, leading frustrated soldiers to pick up a Nosin instead. There are some attempts by Arstotzkans to use trains close to the battlefield, but while the trains are armored and unlikely to take a direct hit from artillery, the tracks are too frequently destroyed for trains to carry ammo directly to soldiers or act and moving machine gun emplacements. The fighting is a stalemate.
In the mountains, the M2 Brumby allows proactive Moskurg troops to lay ambushes with deadly efficiency. Moskurg retakes their mines. The Arstotzkans hold a defensive line not far from there, where they have already established AS-1910 nests.
In the muddy jungle, the Brumby and AS-F14 both suffer from the need for frequent maintenance. This leads to Arstotzkan troops continuing to rely on the Nosin, although the AS-F14 is useful in mid range encounters. The stalemate here continues, but only because of Arstotzka's established defensive positions- the Brumby grants a large advantage in a moving battle.
Moskurg now has 2 ore, 2 oil. Arstotzka has 3 ore, 1 oil. Both are exploiting their side of the mountains.
In the factory, large steam boilers have been replaced with electric motors. Paid vacations have been canceled to make budget.
1915 has begun.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 04:36:20 pm
I mean, Moskburg got ore from their mines in the mountains without needing to build a road. Seems quite unfair that we need to spend another action and get a serious vulnerability for the exact same thing.
Especially since we've been blowing up their railroads for the last 3 turns, and they never needed to fix anything.
Post by: Funk on July 25, 2015, 04:43:42 pm
That is how U.S. military drew the line.The Browning was a .60 cal so not exactly autocannons. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zCEDBtZ0U)
Thats 50cal. The only cannon worked on by Browning was the M4, and that was 37mm...
Also, fromwhat I remember about whats a cannon and whats not, anything up to and including 50cal is not a cannon, while anything over 50cal is.
What he's done is mistaken his 50 cal for a T17E3, an experimental copy of the greman MG 151 cannon in .60 cal (15.2x114mm)
Post by: Sensei on July 25, 2015, 04:54:51 pm
Shouldn't we have Ore 3 now?Yes, you DO now have
I mean, Moskburg got ore from their mines in the mountains without needing to build a road. Seems quite unfair that we need to spend another action and get a serious vulnerability for the exact same thing.
Especially since we've been blowing up their railroads for the last 3 turns, and they never needed to fix anything.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 04:58:47 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 25, 2015, 05:05:21 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 05:12:38 pm
On a side not, what does Ore 3 actually do? Can I build a dreadnaught for every officer?
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 06:11:07 pm
(Also, totally stole my idea for a machine gun.)
EDIT: Also, how did Moskurg manage both a new uniform and a new machine gun in the same turn? The new machine gun is wildly different to the old one so it can't be a Revision, but the new uniform is as different to their old one as ours was to our old one, and our new one needed to be done in the Design phase.
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 06:18:12 pm
-Moskurg 1914 Armor: Moskurg soldiers wear flowing blue linen with a scimitar stitched onto the chest. Steel vests and helmets are added, to protect against shrapnel. Blue-and-silver glory improved with silver cape.
Post by: Elfeater on July 25, 2015, 06:21:01 pm
Post by: Happerry on July 25, 2015, 06:28:02 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 06:30:02 pm
EDIT: Also, how did Moskurg manage both a new uniform and a new machine gun in the same turn? The new machine gun is wildly different to the old one so it can't be a Revision, but the new uniform is as different to their old one as ours was to our old one, and our new one needed to be done in the Design phase.Their uniform adjustement was a revision, probably.
Post by: adwarf on July 25, 2015, 06:30:09 pm
It was a revision to the old uniform. By steel vests what he means is we sewed some steel plates there and hoped they saved someone.-Moskurg 1914 Armor: Moskurg soldiers wear flowing blue linen with a scimitar stitched onto the chest. Steel vests and helmets are added, to protect against shrapnel. Blue-and-silver glory improved with silver cape.
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 06:33:29 pm
Post by: Happerry on July 25, 2015, 06:35:22 pm
1910 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6391542#msg6391542)
1911 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6392757#msg6392757)
1912 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6393888#msg6393888)
1913 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6396473#msg6396473)
1914 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6397622#msg6397622)
Edit : Here's the next one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6404236#msg6404236).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 06:38:09 pm
Which is pretty much the same thing we got. I'm assuming bad versus good rollsIt was a revision to the old uniform. By steel vests what he means is we sewed some steel plates there and hoped they saved someone.-Moskurg 1914 Armor: Moskurg soldiers wear flowing blue linen with a scimitar stitched onto the chest. Steel vests and helmets are added, to protect against shrapnel. Blue-and-silver glory improved with silver cape.
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 06:41:58 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 06:47:12 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 25, 2015, 06:47:21 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 25, 2015, 07:04:58 pm
Air cooling tech is not a thing.That's not true. Once you understand convection, there are mechanical methods to improve the efficiency of air-cooling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_(extended_surface)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_fan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 07:07:12 pm
Post by: tryrar on July 25, 2015, 07:19:20 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 25, 2015, 07:21:20 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 25, 2015, 07:53:22 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 07:55:16 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 25, 2015, 08:02:03 pm
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 08:06:57 pm
Espionage: Steal technology! Introduce bugs! PM me.Second-last line of OP.
Post by: TheLordofHouseRiley on July 25, 2015, 09:07:17 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 09:11:12 pm
Post by: adwarf on July 25, 2015, 09:18:33 pm
Personally I pin that on the climate. That, and the fact that Moskurg is FIERCE like tigers that maul Arstotzkan troops.Tigers are honorary Moskurg citizens.
Post by: Parsely on July 25, 2015, 09:26:19 pm
Excuse me comrade tiger I did not see you Petrov thought you were his grandson let us buy drink at bar.Personally I pin that on the climate. That, and the fact that Moskurg is FIERCE like tigers that maul Arstotzkan troops.Tigers are honorary Moskurg citizens.
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 09:29:58 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 25, 2015, 09:44:05 pm
Post by: Elfeater on July 25, 2015, 09:46:19 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 10:02:43 pm
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2015, 10:31:05 pm
Moskurg man may occasionally make love to tiger after long night at pub, but at least Moskurg have man.
A tigers love is fierce.When the Europeans get here, show them the Moskurg-made propaganda - the ones where it says they bang tigers.
Post by: Elfeater on July 25, 2015, 10:32:46 pm
Lions and Tigers and Bears. Oh My. Because we are strong men.Moskurg man may occasionally make love to tiger after long night at pub, but at least Moskurg have man.A tigers love is fierce.When the Europeans get here, show them the Moskurg-made propaganda - the one where it says they bang tigers.
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 10:33:17 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 25, 2015, 11:24:07 pm
/me sits back and waits for the inevitable rebuke...
Post by: Taricus on July 25, 2015, 11:25:10 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 25, 2015, 11:27:05 pm
Also, I remember.. Three times where we waited for hours waiting for you lot to make up your minds.
Post by: Iituem on July 25, 2015, 11:36:29 pm
So Moskurg is not into only self-defacate and self-immolate, but they are being into man-tiger loving as well? It is certain. Moskurgo truly has not of shame. Would be mercy on world to remove Moskurg from world.
All Hail Prince Tigerfucker! TIGERFUCKER! TIGERFUCKER! TIGERFUCKER! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTdCpn6VdhE)
Post by: Sensei on July 26, 2015, 12:55:18 am
Air cooling tech is not a thing.I might write in heat sinks as a tech. In addition to the tech list I do some mental keeping-track of progress. I feel the list would bloat other to be A) hard to read and B) hard for me to keep updated accurately. Especially stuff that slowly progresses in efficiency or reliability.
Hey Sensei, I was wondering how spying and espionage works...can't seem to find that part of the rules. Do you just roll for it or do we make requests?I shall lay it bare for you now! Each nation has one spy. That spy has one action a year, and does the first thing PM'd to me or with the most votes if multiple people do suggest the same thing. Spies require a dice roll (default about 50% chance) to do their work, and counter-intelligence prompts an opposed roll. If the counter-intelligence spy wins by 2, they kill the other spy, who won't be replaced for a year. Counter intelligence only works against spies who are doing something, spies taking no action are safe.
...both teams have kinda came to embody the nations they represent or at least as well as they can from the limited fiction we have available to us.Additional fiction welcome.
This is a good example of additional fiction.Moskurg man may occasionally make love to tiger after long night at pub, but at least Moskurg have man.A tigers love is fierce.When the Europeans get here, show them the Moskurg-made propaganda - the ones where it says they bang tigers.
That last statement makes no sense. In engagements led by Arstotzkan women there have been hundreds upon hundreds of sightings of Moskurgian soldiers retreating in fear. Captured solders from those engagements stated that the retreats where due to Arstotzkan Valkyries. Or was it their armor...This is another good example.
/me sits back and waits for the inevitable rebuke...
We are waiting on Sensei there.I must have spent... like, an hour reading the Arstotzka thread before tallying up the vote to be for a tank. Then an hour writing. While feeling tired watching Harold and Kumar in the background, anyways. I'd say that's an off day but it's more like a personal weakness. And the reason you'll never see a game like this with every nation in the Papers, Please universe.
Post by: Elfeater on July 26, 2015, 12:59:14 am
This is mere propaganda...!That last statement makes no sense. In engagements led by Arstotzkan women there have been hundreds upon hundreds of sightings of Moskurgian soldiers retreating in fear. Captured solders from those engagements stated that the retreats where due to Arstotzkan Valkyries. Or was it their armor...This is another good example.
/me sits back and waits for the inevitable rebuke...
Post by: Iituem on July 26, 2015, 02:03:27 am
Moskurg has long, passionate history with tigers. Moskurg STRENGK! comes from mating of Moskurg founders with STRONKEST tiger!
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 02:08:19 am
Post by: Sensei on July 26, 2015, 02:21:33 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 02:23:37 am
Quote
I must have spent... like, an hour reading the Arstotzka thread before tallying up the vote to be for a tank. Then an hour writing. While feeling tired watching Harold and Kumar in the background, anyways. I'd say that's an off day but it's more like a personal weakness. And the reason you'll never see a game like this with every nation in the Papers, Please universe.Only 1 person actually wanted that Tank though, so I don't know how that happened.
Now that Arstotzka has 3 Ore, what can we make without it being Expensive?Not a tank, apparently.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 02:23:46 am
Armored cars, patrol boats, heavy machine guns like the Stallion and artillery. Tanks, rail mounted (or similar sized) artillery, are expensive. Tiger tanks or the Maus are very expensive. Mecha Godzilla is Too Expensive."1 Ore. Large weapons are Expensive."
What exactly is a large weapon, then? If not a machine gun like the Stallion and artillery, then what?
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 02:24:32 am
At least 3 people wanted that tank, maybe more.QuoteI must have spent... like, an hour reading the Arstotzka thread before tallying up the vote to be for a tank. Then an hour writing. While feeling tired watching Harold and Kumar in the background, anyways. I'd say that's an off day but it's more like a personal weakness. And the reason you'll never see a game like this with every nation in the Papers, Please universe.Only 1 person actually wanted that Tank though, so I don't know how that happened.
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 02:24:50 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 02:26:05 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 02:27:17 am
Bwahahahaha. Arstotzkan bureaucracy strikes once more!So do our mortars, are carbines, our Nosin sharpshooters, our spy...
Speaking of spies, do spies get better as they successfully complete missions? Arstotzka's spy has probably gained a lot of experience what with all of his successful missions.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 04:00:52 am
Post by: Sensei on July 26, 2015, 05:01:33 am
Speaking of spies, do spies get better as they successfully complete missions? Arstotzka's spy has probably gained a lot of experience what with all of his successful missions.No. For reasons known only to them, Arstotzka prefers spies with crippling learning disorders. Don't question it, it's worked so far.
Only if you tremendously overinterpret their posts.Enough of that. On a related note, I would like to ask all of your to bold your votes in your threads, for easier tallying.
"1 Ore. Large weapons are Expensive."The stallion is large. The Artillery is Large x2, methinks, and requires 3 ore to cease being expensive due to size. Again, havine expensive artillery is not bad. Having expensive tanks is not bad either. In fact, having cheap tanks would be like Shermans, where you might see five teaming up to kill one Panzer. The notion of an inexpensive tank in WWI era is pretty unfeasible, unless maybe it's powered by treadmills instead of an engine. Certainly the size/resource system could do with being hammered out more clearly. Not tonight though.
What exactly is a large weapon, then? If not a machine gun like the Stallion and artillery, then what?
Some important announcements:
The country with the most glorious flag by the 1916 Battle Report will receive an extra spy. If there are multiple flags submitted for a country, citizens must nominate one as theirs. Do take care to keep your spy alive, they will not be automatically replaced.
The Great Nation of Antegria, aligned with the Central Powers, is looking to purchase the rights to a machine gun design to produce domestically. Payment is 1 oil each year until 1920. May earn you a bad reputation with the Allies. Submissions due by 1916 Battle Report.
Lastly, I would like to make a PSA that sometimes, you just need to redesign. Weapons that suffer from large form factor, in particular, are easier replaced that modified. After a few years of making X type of gun, you just get somewhat better at it.
1915 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The two nations are continuing to parallel each other, this time each has developed vehicles. Unusually, it's the Arstotzkans who have gone big, designing the AS-T15 tank based on their steam engine. The Moskurgs (I think I'll start calling them Moskurgs instead of Moskurgians?) developed the Struunk I, an armored car fitted with two machine guns in a configuration similar to modern scout vehicles. The Arstotzkans also upgraded their AS-1910 to use magazines, which will be valuable later, and to be cheaper, which is valuable now.
The treacherous seas are free of ships, and the sky is free of planes and balloons. The ground may never again be free of the roar of motors. Well, some motors, and tank that goes "Chugga chugga chugga chugga CHOO CHOO!"
Today, I shall start us in the jungles. Most fights here are M1 Service Rifle versus Nosin Magant, due to the unreliability of the AS-F14. More plentiful AS-1910 machines square off against more mobile M2 Brumbies. Given the choice between a Stallion and a Brumby, Moskurgs choose the Brumby here. However, Moskurg makes an advance by cutting in-roads to jungle, and patrolling them with a couple Struunks. The Struunk performs reasonable on muddy roads and is the most mobile way for crews to use an M1 Stallion, so it fares well against Arstotzkan scouts. The Arstotzkans don't lose ground, but the Moskurgs push up to them. AS-1910 mags are used, and the drum magazine is, by some miracle, found to be reliable in the jungle wet and heat. In one instance, a Struunk's crew is killed by sidelong Nosin-Magant fire, which penetrated the armor.
In the mountains, the new, cheaper AS-1910 Mag does not become as ubiquitous as hoped, due to the difficult of carrying them. Most soldiers would rather use AS-F14s for supressing fire, than have one soldier carry a gun assembly, and another carry a pair of barrels, both forced to fight with AS-1909's when caught off guard. Less constant fighting and cleaner conditions means that the AS-F14 is more popular here than anywhere else. Soldiers are getting good at reacting to Brumby assaults, but the Brumby remains a fearsome weapon. Stalemate.
The plains are the only area to see the use of the AS-T15. The Struunk sees use as well, but where there are trenches, it is simply ineffective. Moskurg soldiers build small bridges to pass the Struunk over their own trenches, but it cannot cross enemy trenches. Whether charging or parked within combat range, the Struunk has a high profile and is vulnerable to sustained AS-1910 fire, which is now everywhere. Wherever cavalry are effective, the Struunk is twice as much, but cowardly Arstotzkans just dig more trenches. Furthermore, cowardly Arstotzkans are now hiding in metal boxes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO3MttgvHUY). A small group of AS-T15s make a lumbering assault, chuffing into the no-man's land and over Moskurg trenches. They are immune to Model 1 Service Rifle fire, especially in the front. With careful planning, the 80mm gun can destroy Stallion emplacements before coming in range. The AS-1910 gunners have to be proactive though, and the tanks need close infantry support. Some Moskurg officers still use the ancient Horsekiller rifle, which has difficulty penetrating the sloped front armor of the AS-T15 but a well-placed shot on the side of the tank can penetrate. One AS-T15 is lost to careful fire with a Horsekiller from the side, which detonated its supply of 80mm shells, destroying the entire tank. Another was caught alone after a Fierce push by Moskurg soldiers left it surrounded: One Moskurg soldier with a horsekiller managed to climb up the front of the tank, then stood on top shooting until all the crew inside were dead (the tank was destroyed by Arstotzkan artillery to prevent its capture). One AS-T15 found itself sharing a patch of open ground with a Struunk 1. The Struunk ran circles around it and killed the AS-T15's crew with its M1 Stallion machine gun- shots towards the boiler were stopped not by the armor, but the coal supply. Despite these losses, almost half the tanks manufactured, the AS-T15s killed or helped kill hundreds of Moskurg soldiers and gained a lot of ground for Arstotzka.
In the world of espionage, secret stuff happens. Or for all you know, it doesn't happen.
Let the 1916 Design phase begin. Good night!
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 05:14:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 05:18:23 am
I'm surprised the horsekiller isn't more effective, given the use of treads on those tanks. One shot and the tank can't move.I think you vastly overestimate the power of that rifle. Late WW1 guns with specially designed ammunition could not even penetrate 20 mm armor except at extremely close range, and those would break the bones of those who would fire them.
In practice, any gun which your soldiers can carry shouldn't succeed in damaging the tank.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 05:23:42 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 05:28:36 am
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 05:30:12 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 05:36:40 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 05:37:18 am
On a side note, I assume that the fact that the increase in artillery (more ore=more guns) not being mentioned is simply because we're running out of hands to fire all the guns?
Whether charging or parked within combat range, the Struunk has a high profile and is vulnerable to sustained AS-1910 fire, which is now everywhere.I'd say its increased availability has done us well in the trenches.
EDIT: What's up with the Moskurg thread name?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 05:38:58 am
Post by: Sensei on July 26, 2015, 05:39:23 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 05:40:38 am
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 05:50:47 am
Spoiler: GLORIOUS MOSKURG FLAG 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: GLORIOUS MOSKURG FLAG 2, WITH ADDED TIGER (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 05:53:05 am
/me adjusts his glasses
The Finnish flag reversed, with some sabers?
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 05:54:34 am
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 05:56:23 am
Not that we mind, good flag is good, and people copying glorious Moskurg is always better.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 06:30:06 am
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 4 (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 07:11:46 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 07:23:28 am
Moskergian first "machine gun" is a small autocannon, and took a large crew and normally a cart. Arstokian first machine gun was in same caliber as normal rifles, and could be handled by a crew of three. This meant that the former could be used in more areas than the latter, as the latter needed places where a cart could go (the plains).
Later, a smaller, more sane vs infantry machine gun was designed, which took a crew of two. This turned it from a fortification weapon to a more mobile piece.
The point being: When a static gun is swapped for a mobile gun, the effect is far greater than taking a mobile gun and replacing it with a slightly more mobile gun.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 07:32:45 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 08:03:03 am
Post by: Iituem on July 26, 2015, 08:05:55 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 08:17:17 am
Obviously, I support the ADDED TIGER flag. Besides, look at Arstotzkan flags - in half of them, the star is crudely sewn on!(I'm not a professional artist and I did the best I could. I hope the GM considers my design rather than my presentation, which I think is good.)
But seriously, what's with the Moskurg thread name?
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 08:23:56 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 08:31:52 am
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 08:32:32 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 08:40:38 am
Well, at the least we cant look at anything current. I think we can look at your old stuff.
Post by: Happerry on July 26, 2015, 08:56:05 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 09:02:53 am
You can look, you just can't metagame. After all, if you couldn't look how could we order our spies to fit your funtime tanks with the same leaky seals that kept setting our train people on fire?Wait, is that why our tanks get up to 50 degrees Celsius? But anyway, I didn't look at your thread when I ordered our spy to ruin your train. To be honest, it was just dumb luck. I ordered the spy to sabotage your already existing trains so they wouldn't be able to supply your troops, but the GM interpreted it as sabotage their upcoming train project. I honestly had no idea you were developing a new train. You can imagine how giddy I was with the results, though. ;D
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 09:04:29 am
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 09:07:16 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Iituem on July 26, 2015, 09:55:37 am
What did you even do in your Revise phase?
Hookers and blow, primarily.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 09:59:52 am
You can look, you just can't metagame. After all, if you couldn't look how could we order our spies to fit your funtime tanks with the same leaky seals that kept setting our train people on fire?Wait, is that why our tanks get up to 50 degrees Celsius? But anyway, I didn't look at your thread when I ordered our spy to ruin your train. To be honest, it was just dumb luck. I ordered the spy to sabotage your already existing trains so they wouldn't be able to supply your troops, but the GM interpreted it as sabotage their upcoming train project. I honestly had no idea you were developing a new train. You can imagine how giddy I was with the results, though. ;D
Yup, 50 degreesCelsius seems to be the expected result when you put a big metal box over a railway locomotive.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 10:31:25 am
Spoiler: Anyway, an overview (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Moksburg (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Parsely on July 26, 2015, 10:59:59 am
Only if you tremendously overinterpret their posts.I don't see anyone else but you complaining.
Your gun fires a simple metal bullet. It's not going to hurt the track.My gramps tested tanks at Yuma proving grounds back in the day. When I asked him if you could disable a tank's treads with gunfire, he said it didn't take much to cause a track to twist and come off (a dent, a small cut, but it wouldn't just fly off right away, it would take a minute or ten of driving for it to tear itself apart; they spent a lot of timing fixing them in the shop, he said). To be clear, he said that yes, you could disable a tank's treads with a large caliber rifle if you aimed at the caterpillar.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 01:14:03 pm
Quote
My gramps tested tanks at Yuma proving grounds back in the day. When I asked him if you could disable a tank's treads with gunfire, he said it didn't take much to cause a track to twist and come off (a dent, a small cut, but it wouldn't just fly off right away, it would take a minute or ten of driving for it to tear itself apart; they spent a lot of timing fixing them in the shop, he said). To be clear, he said that yes, you could disable a tank's treads with a large caliber rifle if you aimed at the caterpillar.
Not really a problem then. The crew's unconscious by minute 5.
Post by: Parsely on July 26, 2015, 01:15:05 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 01:18:55 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 26, 2015, 01:29:23 pm
The tread coming apart doesn't render the crew unconscious. The hostile environement inside the tank (coal fire, 50 degrees, cramped) does.I...don't see where that enters into what we were discussing. I was refuting your claim that AT rifles couldn't damage treads. But yeah, it is kind of nuts that you guys have a steam-powered tank. You'd think it would be far too heavy to even move.
Post by: Elfeater on July 26, 2015, 01:32:23 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 01:34:49 pm
I'm pretty sure it arrives near the battlefield as a self-contained railway package. Dissassemble the locomotive and train, then make a tank.The tread coming apart doesn't render the crew unconscious. The hostile environement inside the tank (coal fire, 50 degrees, cramped) does.I...don't see where that enters into what we were discussing. I was refuting your claim that AT rifles couldn't damage treads. But yeah, it is kind of nuts that you guys have a steam-powered tank. You'd think it would be far too heavy to even move.
Steam tanks existed though. Ours is just ridicously big.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tank
Post by: Parsely on July 26, 2015, 01:41:39 pm
That makes a lot of sense. A hull you can lower onto the chassis with a crane or something. But more I was concerned about ground pressure, because locomotive engines are heavy, but-I'm pretty sure it arrives near the battlefield as a self-contained railway package. Dissassemble the locomotive and train, then make a tank.The tread coming apart doesn't render the crew unconscious. The hostile environement inside the tank (coal fire, 50 degrees, cramped) does.I...don't see where that enters into what we were discussing. I was refuting your claim that AT rifles couldn't damage treads. But yeah, it is kind of nuts that you guys have a steam-powered tank. You'd think it would be far too heavy to even move.
Steam tanks existed though. Ours is just ridicously big.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tank
That's really neat actually. They actually made one that worked.
Post by: Elfeater on July 26, 2015, 01:55:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 04:38:16 pm
Also the "stitches" are supposed to be light beams. I can't really get that across some other way by using Paint.
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 5 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: adwarf on July 26, 2015, 04:40:35 pm
I notice a significant lack of tiger head :cHere is my submission for Moksburg's flag.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 04:43:23 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 26, 2015, 04:45:35 pm
Actually,my claim was that the Horsekiller couldn't crack the tread.The tread coming apart doesn't render the crew unconscious. The hostile environement inside the tank (coal fire, 50 degrees, cramped) does.I...don't see where that enters into what we were discussing. I was refuting your claim that AT rifles couldn't damage treads. But yeah, it is kind of nuts that you guys have a steam-powered tank. You'd think it would be far too heavy to even move.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 26, 2015, 04:48:33 pm
Post by: Elfeater on July 26, 2015, 05:22:34 pm
I think that kinda just clutters it imo.I notice a significant lack of tiger head :cHere is my submission for Moksburg's flag.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 08:42:54 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 26, 2015, 08:46:27 pm
That's what I said. I said the Horsekiller could.Actually, my claim was that the Horsekiller couldn't crack the tread.The tread coming apart doesn't render the crew unconscious. The hostile environement inside the tank (coal fire, 50 degrees, cramped) does.I...don't see where that enters into what we were discussing. I was refuting your claim that AT rifles couldn't damage treads. But yeah, it is kind of nuts that you guys have a steam-powered tank. You'd think it would be far too heavy to even move.
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 09:04:46 pm
Post by: Elfeater on July 26, 2015, 09:06:09 pm
Just asking, but based on the large amount of posts your thread has got I'm guessing you're arguing about how to beat our tank?Among other things.
Post by: Happerry on July 26, 2015, 09:40:12 pm
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 09:42:34 pm
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 7 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka Flag Design 8 (click to show/hide)
You know how it is, you have group A voting for the inter-continental teleforce cannon, group B voting for the Invisible Death Saucers, and Group C voting for the Rods from God deployment system, and all the sides are fervently trying to convince the other parties' members to defect.It's ok. Arstotzkans are Patient.
Post by: Taricus on July 26, 2015, 09:43:55 pm
Post by: Andres on July 26, 2015, 09:47:54 pm
To be fair, Arstotzka isn't past the design phase as well.A large majority of us have voted for the same thing. We're just waiting on Sensei.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 26, 2015, 09:48:50 pm
Also, voting for Arstotzkin flag #5
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 12:34:56 am
One of the things that makes the tank more Expensive is the track system, but our Treads technology doesn't say it's Expensive. Just wanted to ask if I'm missing something or Treads should be given the [Expensive] tag.The tread system needed to support the AS-T15 in particular is complicated, but treads aren't inherently expensive.
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 02:27:27 am
-Arstotzka is submitting their AS-1910/AS-1910 Mag to Antegria for the oil contract. Moskurg is NOT submitting a gun, planning to side with the allies.
-Nobody really voted much on flags. I guess I'll just pick my favorite for each side. For Arstotzka that would be one of Andres' last few, for Moskurg, a harder decision but I'll pore over them.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 27, 2015, 02:28:42 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 02:40:09 am
Post by: Sheb on July 27, 2015, 02:53:38 am
[img width=300 ]http://i.imgur.com/qhQgGKF.png[/img]
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 03:01:18 am
Hey, I voted for a flag.I suppose one vote is a vote. Arstotzka's #5 seems to be the one that's been voted for by one (1) constituent. I'm pretty sure Moskurg is tiger-obsessed enough to prefer the tiger flag.
Post by: evilcherry on July 27, 2015, 03:04:39 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 03:20:53 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 03:22:36 am
I vote that Sensei just picks his favourites. (To be honest, this is what I thought you meant when you said the citizens would vote.)+1
Post by: Aseaheru on July 27, 2015, 03:23:03 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 03:33:19 am
-Nobody really voted much on flags. I guess I'll just pick my favorite for each side. For Arstotzka that would be one of Andres' last few, for Moskurg, a harder decision but I'll pore over them.I took this to mean he'd pick his favourite of each faction and then decide which was better.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 27, 2015, 03:36:45 am
The country with the most glorious flag by the 1916 Battle Report will receive an extra spy. If there are multiple flags submitted for a country, citizens must nominate one as theirs. Do take care to keep your spy alive, they will not be automatically replaced.
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 03:54:57 am
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 06:04:19 am
Arstotzka:
(http://i.imgur.com/rIKNR5w.png)
(Sorry Aseaheru, I'm counting Andres' expression of pride over his last flags as a determining vote, since he submitted them. And they don't have artifacts.) For the record, every Arstotzkan soldier has two of these on their head. On little sticks.
Moskurg:
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/Iituem/moskurg_zps0piqmcvl.png)
It's a tough call. Arstotzka has cyrillic, and glory as a stated motivation. Moskurg has swords as well as a tiger. Ultimately, I must say I like the detail on Moskurg's flag. Agent codenamed "Tiger Fucker" joins their ranks.
The Antegria Contract
Moskurg has declined to submit a weapon for Antegria's machine gun contract, planning to align themselves politically with the allies. Arstotzka submits the AS-1910 Mag. Antegria is happy to have a cheap, reliable machine gun and puts it into production immediately. Already, an oil tanker is bound for Arstotzka and the oil will be available for 1917 production. Antegrian AS-1910's are of slightly poorer workmanship than the genuine article, but they work. Arstotzka earns a mixed reputation among the arms market, but at least their name is known.
About Research Facilities
The GM is never going to give one of the teams 2 design slots and the other 1. It's simply not going to happen.Yeah, that's pretty much the case. It would make too drastic a power gap. My original plan was (and potentially still is) to give both nations an extra research facility when it starts to look like keeping up to date with their full variety of military hardware is too difficult. However, I've found that one design and one revision per turn is enough work (in terms of my own reading and writing) that I might not want to do two per nation per turn, lest the game slow to a crawl.
What I may do is offer Design Credits and Revision Credits as rewards for... well, we'll see. Possibly capturing enemy technology on the battlefield, possibly special espionage actions. These would let you do one extra design or revision in a year, but only once per credit.
Penetrating 20mm of armor? Absurd!
How do you think our glorious nation can afford so much steel armor? Let me let you in on a little secret, friend. It is actually an alloy with a disturbing amount of nickel and tin. At least, that's also going to be my explanation next time I'm caught naming a slightly unrealistic armor thickness and performance. Your armor technology will become more effective per-thickness as it ages and improves though.
If I make too many mistakes of this nature, I will simply be forced to show my "Not a bloody firearms historian" badge.
A New-ish Cost System
First, I'm establishing numeric labels for expense levels: 1 is Expensive, 2 is Very Expensive, and 3 is A National Effort.
Inexpensive equipment could be given to every soldier, if you want. Cheap vehicles means everyone can ride around in one instead of marching. Expensive equipment can be given to officers, or one per squad (5-10 soldiers). Expensive Vehicles means a pretty good number can be used for support. Very Expensive equipment can be used by special squads only, about 1 in 100 soldiers. Very Expensive vehicles are few and far between on the battlefield, or there are only a couple squads. Your nation can only deploy one National Effort at a time. It had better be an aircraft carrier, or a nuke, or a giant walking robot if you want this to be worth it. If you have multiple weapons at a price tier, then soldiers/squads choose one for the situation. Some weapons, EG crewed machine guns and artillery, don't benefit much from being Inexpensive because there aren't many situations where you'd want everyone using one.
You might gain an Expense Credit for a certain type of unit, reducing the expense by 1- for example, if High Command desperately wants an airplane, they'll offer an expense credit for it, which might reduce your new bomber from A National Effort to Very Expensive. Monetary gains from trade will be represented this way.
Instead of labeling things as "Expensive because of being large", or what have you, I'm going to name an ore an oil requirement numerically for products. This way I won't have to update item descriptions as a nation's resources change. For example, a car might cost Oil 2, Ore 3. If your nation has Ore 2, Oil 1, a product which costs Ore 3, Oil 2 gains two expense levels, becoming Very Expensive. If it's also Complex, that's three expense levels (A National Effort). A second expense level is gained when the cost of single resource exceeds your supply by 3. For instance, if you have 1 ore, then 2 ore is Expensive, 3 ore is still Expensive, and 4 ore is Very Expensive. Ore represents total mining effort, so if you have a gun made of a rare or difficult to mine metal (let's say titanium) it might have an ore cost of 2 or 3 despite being only a rifle. If a large truck can be made mostly from low-quality steel, it might be cheaper. See also: 20mm armor that gets penetrated by small arms fire.
I might add technology later to increase the resources available from your home territory- I'll think about it. As usual, I'm still working on this whole system, constructive criticism is welcome. The main gap I still have is that I have no idea what it means for a train to be Expensive, or Very Expensive. For now I'm ignoring train cost and assuming that new technologies are either cost effective or considered failures automatically.
1916 Battle Report
Now with resource costs! If an item is not stated to have an ore/oil cost, assume it to be 1 (effectively zero, countries will not have less than 1). Tell me if it looks like I missed anything egregious.
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm pretty sure I didn't label the Struunk as being Very Expensive. It was, or at least it was in my head, which is why its performance was described in anecdotes rather than a broad description of performance. I apologize for the confusion. Maybe you can sue me for a research credit in the Bay 12 Courtroom or something.
Now, onto the main event. The Moskurgs, who are definitely not Moskburgs, spent the entire year fine tuning their SPAT, Self Propelled Anti-Tank, which is really just a mobile Bombardier emplacement. If they sort out the motor expense, and the unreliability, they can phase out horse-drawn Bombardiers entirely. The Arstotzkan engineers have been working to introduce a revolutionary sub-machine gun, the AS-MC16. It's currently expensive, but it might still playable a valuable part in this year's fighting. They also added some proper recoil compensation to their artillery.
I'm sure you're all dying to hear about the armor and trench fighting in the plains, so naturally I'm going to start in the jungle again. The AS-MC16 is Arstotzka's answer to the M2 Brumby here. Typical Moskurg tactics involve getting as close as possible to Arstotzkan troops before opening fire. Officers wielding MC-16's rack up a significant number of kills, in mobile fights and close range ambushes. The rapid fire and large magazine allows a single soldier to attack a number of enemies at close range where kills are assured. The gun does suffer some jamming, but the mechanical work is the tightest Arstotzka has yet accomplished. Arstotzka gains ground. Some of the fighting is in areas patrolled by Struunk I's, while the Struunk armor is imperfect a Struunk crew is mobile with two machine guns, and if it encounters a group of Arstotzkan scouts on the move, has them significantly outgunned. The AS-MC16 is no use against armor. Struunk patrols are sometimes interrupted by roads full of artillery craters.
In the mountains, the new AS-MC16 sees the least use. There are simply too many long-range engagements and officers prefer an F14 or a good, reliable Nosin. The stalemate here continues. Agent Hairy Pickle attempts to rig Moskurg mining explosives to destroy their own mines, making 14 identical time bombs, which are disarmed on 13 occasions by the fast actions of brave Moskurg demolition engineers, and on one occasion by spilled coffee.
The plains play host to some interesting developments. The SPAT is specifically designed to destroy the AS-T15, marking the first armor-to-armor warfare. Both vehicles have more firepower than armor, so when one encounters the other, it is a question of who can get an accurate shot off first. The AS-T15 has a slightly faster and more accurate gun, but usually the victor is whoever is on the offensive. The SPAT is also much more able to rotate, and beats AS-T15s in sidelong engagements. Both armored vehicles are still vulnerable without close infantry support. Unless Arstotzkan troops are pinned behind their tank with a machine gun, they can take rifle shots at a SPAT crew through the armor gaps. The fates that await an AS-T15 surround by Moskurg infantry have been discussed at length previously. Arstotzka has an armor advantage overall, but the AS-MC16 is also a big deciding factor. In fights close around tanks or in the trenches, Moskurg troops are shocked by a sudden and ferocious assault from the new machine gun so portable it can be used in trench fighting. Arstotzka gains ground in the trenches again, the fight is now well in their favor there.
Post by: Sheb on July 27, 2015, 06:08:01 am
Post by: Taricus on July 27, 2015, 06:16:27 am
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 06:19:10 am
Could we have some kind of map, or ruler, or any other way to know whos winning in each theater (and not whos simply making progress one particular year)?Mountains: Arstotzka 2, Moskurg 2
Jungle: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg
Plains: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg
Presumably we'd get a credit for partially completed projects then?No. Technology [Partial] gives you a better chance of success next time you attempt the same tech, but not an extra design or revision action. Otherwise I might as well just re-roll then and there.
Post by: Taricus on July 27, 2015, 06:26:29 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 06:27:32 am
This can't be right. Last year we made "great gains" and this year we merely made "gains". We should have 4 at least.Could we have some kind of map, or ruler, or any other way to know whos winning in each theater (and not whos simply making progress one particular year)?Mountains: Arstotzka 2, Moskurg 2
Jungle: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg 2
Plains: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg 2
Hum, fair enough then. Also I have to ask how the arstotzkan tank can actually get far, doesn't seem like it can carry a lot of fuel.We upgraded our engine.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Doesn't our very portable and ubiquitous (costs 1 Ore) Light Mortar help with taking out the SPATs?
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 06:35:36 am
There is a problem. Before, our 1910 was small enough that its size didn't factor into its Expense while the Stallion was large enough that its size did. Now they're both effectively the same size, which shouldn't be the case.This has got to do with you having more metal at the time, mainly. I know it's not really in line with the description, but I already said that the stallion reduced in cost when the Moskurgs gained one ore.
Quote
This can't be right. Last year we made "great gains" and this year we merely made "gains". We should have 4 at least.Moskurg had 4/4, their boots were crunching on frozen grass. One more turn and they'd have started exploiting resources. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :P
Hum, fair enough then. Also I have to ask how the arstotzkan tank can actually get far, doesn't seem like it can carry a lot of fuel.It's a full-length steam train boiler with coal packed in a few feet space either side. That's a ton of coal. Maybe multiple tons. You can also reasonably imagine them being resupplied, it's a whole year of fighting.
Post by: Taricus on July 27, 2015, 06:37:56 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 06:39:47 am
Post by: Taricus on July 27, 2015, 06:40:38 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 06:44:40 am
You mean 5/5, right? Plains is currently split with Arstotzka having 3/5 and Moskurg having 2/5. So to get resources from the Plains, Arstotzka has to have 6/5?QuoteThis can't be right. Last year we made "great gains" and this year we merely made "gains". We should have 4 at least.Moskurg had 4/4, their boots were crunching on frozen grass. One more turn and they'd have started exploiting resources. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :P
EDIT: The year where Moskurg got to frost was 1912. In 1913, our armour and our now-working artillery let us gain ground. We should be at 6/5 by now.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 06:51:43 am
When the reserves start pouring in.What reserves?
I'm pretty sure our current tactic is :
1) Rolling Barrage of Artillery fire + Tank/Infantry charge
2) Artillery continues it's barrage to suppress further enemy trenches
3) Install our overabundance of artillery and machine guns (literally, we have tons of those.)
4) Replace crew, fill up coal and water, repeat.
EDIT: Doesn't our very portable and ubiquitous (costs 1 Ore) Light Mortar help with taking out the SPATs?It probably does, since certainly it isn't our tanks doing the heavy lifting, with their 10:1 numerical disadvantage. Probably some artillery as well.
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 06:54:04 am
3) Install our overabundance of artillery and machine guns (literally, we have tons of those.)Double-literally, since the artillery pieces literally weigh tons.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 06:59:59 am
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 07:06:48 am
It probably does, since certainly it isn't our tanks doing the heavy lifting, with their 10:1 numerical disadvantage. Probably some artillery as well.They're not at a numerical disadvantage. We don't have enough Ore and the treads are complex, making the tanks Very Expensive. They don't have enough Ore and the complexity of the motor makes the SPATs Very Expensive. Numerical equality.
I noticed this earlier but forgot to mention it, but in the paragraph detailing the trench action you repeatedly called the T15s 'F15s'. The 'T' stands for 'Tank'.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 27, 2015, 07:07:21 am
Mountains: Arstotzka 2, Moskurg 2Arstotzka Wins Everywhere! Except in spies. I blame whoever decided to have our spies shot whenever they succeed.
Jungle: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg 2
Plains: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg 2
(Atleast, thats my explanation for lack of XP)
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 07:08:23 am
GM said that spies are chosen from only among those with learning disabilities.Mountains: Arstotzka 2, Moskurg 2Arstotzka Wins Everywhere! Except in spies. I blame whoever decided to have our spies shot whenever they succeed.
Jungle: Arstotzka 3, Moskurg 2
(Atleast, thats my explanation for lack of XP)
Post by: Aseaheru on July 27, 2015, 07:15:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 07:43:41 am
It probably does, since certainly it isn't our tanks doing the heavy lifting, with their 10:1 numerical disadvantage. Probably some artillery as well.They're not at a numerical disadvantage. We don't have enough Ore and the treads are complex, making the tanks Very Expensive. They don't have enough Ore and the complexity of the motor makes the SPATs Very Expensive. Numerical equality.
I noticed this earlier but forgot to mention it, but in the paragraph detailing the trench action you repeatedly called the T15s 'F15s'. The 'T' stands for 'Tank'.
On that note, if your T15 is flying, then something is seriously wrong, and you should consult the manual. Maybe even write techsupport.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 27, 2015, 07:44:23 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 07:57:32 am
Why did Trench Warfare stop?
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 08:01:48 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 08:33:53 am
1910 : Arztotskans gain ground (reach towns)
1911 : Moskburg regains ground
1912 : Moskburg gains ground ( and see frost)
1913 : Arztotska regains ground
1914 : Stalemate
1915 : Arztotska gains lot of ground gained
1916 : Arztotska gains ground.
That assumes gains are equal though
Post by: Knave on July 27, 2015, 09:04:03 am
I did some recalculation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6401341#msg6401341) and determined that Arstotzka would've captured the Plains entirely by now, assuming Moskurg was at 4/5 when they started feeling frost. If they felt frost at 5/5, we'd be at 5/5 too, so we wouldn't have captured the Plains yet but we'd be close to doing so.
Ultimately it doesn't matter, gains sound like they aren't equal every time. Just enjoy the fun battle reports :)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 09:07:11 am
Post by: Iituem on July 27, 2015, 09:52:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Taricus on July 27, 2015, 09:53:17 am
Post by: Iituem on July 27, 2015, 09:56:34 am
Post by: Sheb on July 27, 2015, 10:03:50 am
Anyway, Moksburg should really find a weker foe to use their pitiful army against. Maybe if they try hard, they might be able to win against Moksburg, although even that would be surprising.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 10:20:23 am
Excerpts from diary of AS-2010 gunner
January 2010. Arrived to the bootcamp
February 2010.
We got new weapon that will the war for us. It is an incredible machinegun. Somewhat heavy but nothing that trained team can't handle. It is called AS-10, but we call it Austin
June 1910. Finally, after months of training we arrived to the front. Those sword carrying cavary morons will remember my crew for some time. War will be over in few months
July 1910. Encountered enemy machinegun. That pile of shit creates very nasty wounds. We call them horse****s or HDs for short
September 1910. Have seen a HD on enemy abandoned positions. Only an idiot can design such monster. I suspect they compensate something
December 1910. We reached abandoned villages, should we push them out, the war will be over
February 1911. My crew is dead. Damned artillery shell. I am in hospital now. It is overfilled with wounded and no good news from the front.
September 1911. Back to active duty. Arrived to jungles. I am getting mad because of heat.
November 1911. They need to design lighter machinegun for jungle warfare. At least we are not forced to drag HDs through the mud.
March 1912. Life becomes boring. I sit on the wall of the fort almost praying for Moskurg's attack
April 1912. Back to the hospital because of some tropical fever
November 1912. Returned to active duty. It is already snowing. Hope that winter will stall their advance through plains
February 1913. New uniform. If my buddies had helmets back in 1911, they would stay alive. What is more important they fixed our artillery. "Twelves" bring death to the scum and we push them back again.
April 1913. Trenches. Trenches. Trenches.
June 1913. Trenches. Trenches. Trenches. Hate it.
January 1914. At first I assumed that they started to use captured Austins, but no, they fielded machineguns of proper size. Slowpokes needed three years to do this
February 1914 Damn. Their new machineguns are everywhere. I must admit it is rather nice weapon. Hopely we will get an equivalent.
March 1914. Trenches... Trenches... Trenches... Trenches...
July 1914. We are sitting in the same place for months. This damned war will never end.
August 1914. Caught a bullet in my leg. Almost grateful for that.
January 1915. Back in action. I got new version of Austin. It uses a detachable magazine. It is a mixed blessing. At least there are many more Austins nearby
February 1915. We got attacked by a... car. I have seen cars before when I visited the capital but this one is very different. It got nicknamed Horse because it carries a HD. Luckily, this thing is not immortal. Twelve Austins focused fire on it and we won the day.
April 1915. We are pushing forward again. Our railless trains armed with guns kick some asses! Eat that, scum! "Sunday express" we call them. Frontline irony is strange sometimes.
June 1915. It exploded. I have seen it. No one know what happened but it is the first Sunday express we lost.
September 1915. Once again It looks like war will be over soon.
February 1916. There are rumors that we will get light machinegun soon. Finally! We need them
March 1916. 9mm!!? What idiot does machinehuns using this calibre? It is like DH but different side of stupidity.
March 1916. On other hand infantry like it. They say it is great in trenches.
April 1916. My buddy from artillery says they got new version of "Twelve". Good.
June 1916. Enemy starts to use its own version of Sunday Express. Of cause it is inferior to ours but I don't envy our guys in this hot metal coffins.
Post by: Sheb on July 27, 2015, 10:21:45 am
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 03:08:05 pm
On a side note, does this advance mean we're back fighting through quaint little English villages?Not yet, but you will next turn. If you're thinking there definitely should have been villages by now based on our previous progress, assume they've been utterly shelled into rubble since then.
Heh, I didn't realize I was doing that. I might have been thinking of the F14 rifle somewhat. I blame that on it being 4 AM at the time.It probably does, since certainly it isn't our tanks doing the heavy lifting, with their 10:1 numerical disadvantage. Probably some artillery as well.They're not at a numerical disadvantage. We don't have enough Ore and the treads are complex, making the tanks Very Expensive. They don't have enough Ore and the complexity of the motor makes the SPATs Very Expensive. Numerical equality.
I noticed this earlier but forgot to mention it, but in the paragraph detailing the trench action you repeatedly called the T15s 'F15s'. The 'T' stands for 'Tank'.
On that note, if your T15 is flying, then something is seriously wrong, and you should consult the manual. Maybe even write techsupport.
so do we get a bonus when spies work together or whatYou just get two attempts.
On a side note, a question.It didn't, but I only mentioned where it changed (the use of the AS-MC16). The AS-F15's trench-crossing abilities are still proving to be of value.
Why did Trench Warfare stop?
That assumes gains are equal thoughI haven't necessarily been assuming that. I like my vagueness sometimes. ;) I can probably do a rigid, four-segment system from here on if you like though.
A map, you say?Dat's pretty. Maybe I should put it in the OP. Or, a non-territory version.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hrm. Yeah, that's more 4:1 than 3:2, isn't it? I'll do another one after the next year.Y'all are pretty hung up on a five-segment system aren't you? I chose four because it's an even number, and I wanted always imagined two victories (and then at least holding it for one turn) to be enough to gain the area from the start of the game where each side holds equal territory.
Got some inspiration :):)
Post by: Iituem on July 27, 2015, 03:35:48 pm
Dat's pretty. Maybe I should put it in the OP. Or, a non-territory version.
Like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 04:34:09 pm
Excerpts from diary of AS-2010 gunnerEncore please.
'S pretty cool.Dat's pretty. Maybe I should put it in the OP. Or, a non-territory version.
Like this?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 04:50:29 pm
I like it! I've noticed it is, however, missing an East Bay. My intent for ships was that they need to park in bays (because of storms) and can normally only attack one region away from a safe bay. This means that holding the Jungle or the Plains gives you to ability to use naval support in the enemy's home region.Dat's pretty. Maybe I should put it in the OP. Or, a non-territory version.
Like this?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 04:54:39 pm
Post by: TheLordofHouseRiley on July 27, 2015, 04:56:28 pm
April of 1910:
A man came into my village last week looking for young able bodied men to go wage glorious war against the Arstotzkan devils to the south or at least that is what he told us. Unfortunately the man determined I was able bodied he told me I was drafted and expected to go to bootcamp (whatever that is) in two weeks. I had no idea what to say and the man had very fancy blue uniform and sword so of course I couldn't refuse. I know say goodbye to family and friends as I begin my trek north to this camp for boots. No idea why we need a camp for boots but I still go.
May of 1910:
Boot camp had a surprising lack of boots. Actually it turns out that it has nothing to do with boots at all! It is a place where we learn to fight for the Glorious Armies of Moskurg! So far I have enjoyed bootcamp it isn't as hard as i expected it to be once i realized what it was, and today I have just received my glorious rifle the Horse Killer is a mighty gun that thunders and roars as you shoot it. It is very fun to shoot but thus far I actually failed to hit the broad side of a barn. But I am sure I get better at the very least better then the Arstotzkan dogs.
July of 1910:
I have just graduated Boot camp today! I am so excited i shall soon be facing the enemies of Moskurg in glorious combat. I have been told my unit is to march east along the coast to fight in the plains. I have never travelled very far south so i am excited to see new lands i am also glad I did not get assigned to unit headed west the jungles sound quite frankly terrible mud as high as your chest and trees so dense you can't see the hand in front of your face. Well I am off to drink with my comrades till we head off for war maybe I find lovely lady who wants to be with a glorious warrior like myself.
Early August of 1910:
My unit arrived at the front last week its not exactly how I imagined far less glorious charges more huddling in trenches eating some of the worst food I have ever tasted. But still I am glad to be here it gives me purpose to fight for my nation and bring honor and glory to my family.
Late August of 1910:
Damned Arstotzkans!!! My unit was given order to charge and take Arstotzkan trench captain told us should be easy like other Arstotzkan trenches. Told us there puny guns would barely hurt when they hit us and told us that no Arstotzkan is a match for us sons of Moskurg in Battle. I believed him we all believed him I believed him so we charged that is when I first heard the rattle of machine gun fire a sound I'm not likely to forget. As we charge across open field behind captain I hear the "chunk chunk chunk" of Arstotzkan machine gun and saw my glorious moskurgan brothers get chopped down by the fire of Arstotzkan machine-guns. I still do not know how I made it through that initial volley. But soon the machine gun fell silent I could see it by now two men struggling with it trying to take off its barrel or some such I don't know why but I assume they had there reasons. So I dropped to ground and aimed my horsekiller at the nearest of them and fired his chest exploded into a bloody mist that drenched the other man working on the machine gun. That was the first life I took. It didn't feel quite how I expected but it is no matter each Arstotzkan I kill brings my nation closer to victory of the Arstotkan devils.
November 1910:
It has been bloody war I am last of my unit the rest die to the hail of fire from Arstotzkan machine guns and rifles. But glorious Moskurg engineers have provided us with our own machine gun the GLORIOUS M1 Stallion! It shoots a mans bullet unlike the puny Arstotzkan machine guns and I have been assigned the great honor of crewing one.... well not really I've been assigned to a crew but they just really wanted me to guard it if the enemy did make it to our trenches. But still is good job to protect great Moskurgan weapon. Though i no longer get to fight in glorious charges. Anyhow war progresses poorly at least I think it does it seems to me we keep going further and further back but I am sure it is glorious plan of great Moskurgan commanders.
December 1910:
Today I got to fire the Glorious stallion though I wish it was under better circumstances. The rest of the crew died under a hail of gunfire during the Arstotzkan charge I suppose that means I failed my one job but still firing the stallion was as fun as I expected gunning down those damn Arstotzkan pigs. We held the trench despite the loss of a proper Stallion crew and I couldn't really keep it firing as it should of but our bravery and skill in trench combat drove them back. As we will one day drive the Arstotkan pigs into the sea.
Glory to Moskurg
(to be continued)
Feedback would be appreciated
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 05:06:18 pm
Post by: TheLordofHouseRiley on July 27, 2015, 05:11:55 pm
Post by: Andres on July 27, 2015, 05:30:54 pm
Post by: Happerry on July 27, 2015, 05:31:39 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 05:37:35 pm
Post by: TheLordofHouseRiley on July 27, 2015, 05:56:10 pm
Post by: Iituem on July 27, 2015, 06:16:29 pm
I like it! I've noticed it is, however, missing an East Bay. My intent for ships was that they need to park in bays (because of storms) and can normally only attack one region away from a safe bay. This means that holding the Jungle or the Plains gives you to ability to use naval support in the enemy's home region.Dat's pretty. Maybe I should put it in the OP. Or, a non-territory version.
Like this?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, deliberately left out East Bay because only NSW were mentioned. Just makes the Jungle crazy important to hold for sea purposes (but contrast the plains having a working railroad).
Edit: For our next action, Moskurg will declare war on the Random Number Gods for their filthy alliance with the Arstotzkans! They shall feel the sting of our Brumbies!
Post by: tryrar on July 27, 2015, 06:20:44 pm
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 27, 2015, 06:23:25 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 06:24:34 pm
Post by: tryrar on July 27, 2015, 06:25:52 pm
Let me guess, they attempted to make a six story tall robot?
Nothing quite that complex. In theory it was something that was on the surface simple, but in practice...not so much. :P It helps when the dice seem to be allied with us(they used both their design AND revision for it, and not much was accomplished >:D)
Post by: Sensei on July 27, 2015, 06:29:38 pm
Yeah, deliberately left out East Bay because only NSW were mentioned. Just makes the Jungle crazy important to hold for sea purposes (but contrast the plains having a working railroad).Hm. Mistake, but might keep it that way.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 27, 2015, 06:30:32 pm
Post by: tryrar on July 27, 2015, 06:33:12 pm
Are they trying to make a military version of the titanic?
Fine, since they're into their production phase and we'll soon have an update as soon as revisions are done, they tried to make a man-portable radio. Emphasis on TRIED, it's more wheelbarrow portable :P. At least it fits in the trenches now >:D
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 27, 2015, 06:40:19 pm
Post by: tryrar on July 27, 2015, 06:41:32 pm
At least they can send messages like "We are surrounded. Send reinfo...... "
Using Morse Code, I'm not sure they'll get past "we are su..." :P
Post by: Iituem on July 27, 2015, 06:50:45 pm
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/Iituem/moskurg_zps0piqmcvl.png)
Moskurg, Moskurg, Moskurg STRONK,
Beauty in the face of TAONKs,
Gods may oppose us,
Hope they may grind,
But with great weapons
We desecrate shrines!
Moskurg, Moskurg, Moskurg STRONK,
In our war we can do no WRONK,
Fast as the desert sands,
Stronk-as-a tiger's love,
We shall crush our foes
With glor-ious death from above!
*a single tear falls from a Moskurg soldier's eye*
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 27, 2015, 06:51:43 pm
Quote from: Secret document
Black smoke : Charge
Black and intermittent white : Prepare for charge
Continious White : Replace crew.
No smoke : Send more fuel
Black, white, red and pieces of shrapnel : Send new tank
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 27, 2015, 07:24:50 pm
Post by: TheLordofHouseRiley on July 27, 2015, 07:50:08 pm
January 1916
Sometimes Im amazed looking back at these last six years that I even managed to survive 1910. I was a damned fool on many occasions taking many risks I still remember the day I got my first taste of proper gunnery firing a stallion it was an exhilarating thrill at the time hell it still is. But by no means should I have survived the day we were out gunned and out numbered with all honesty we should of withdrawn from that trench just let the Arstotzkans take it. But we won and I survived and caught the eye of a certain captain Menou apparently. Though I wouldn't know that until last year when I was given my first promotion well real promotion. Many a times I became a unofficial leader amongst the newer troops simply because nearly no one has survived as long as I have on the front. Well anyhow I wish Menou wouldn't have noticed me as I abhor my new role as lieutenant. The pressure resting on you knowing your mens lives hang in the balance that and due to my new role Menou forbid me from using the horse killer. Damn him these new guns if you could even call them that don't compare to the horsekiller you shouldn't fix what isn't broken especially when fixing means downsizing to the pansy .30 caliber like many arstotzkan weapons. I also hate being an officer because I don't know how to ride a horse and Menou put me in charge of a calvary platoon. Albeit we rarely actually use the horses as I prefer not to lead my men to there certain deaths but still its kinda embaressing especially when i was first given my command and I didn't know how to even get on a horse. The only man in Moskurg who cant ride a horse and you give him a command of a calvary platoon. At the time I thought that Menou was insane still do actually but I know see his reasons at least a little more clearly. Many of the veteran calvary commanders were transferred to are new armored calvary last year. The new Struuunk I now that is a truly GLORIOUS piece of Moskurg engineering you don't see the Arstotzkan pigs using anything like that. All they have are there steel behemoths. Ive only ever seen one and it didn't impress me it was slow and had many blind spots and concentrated fire of Stallions and Bombardiers can take them down.
May 1916
For the first time in many years I have felt so much pride in Moskurg engineering. Though no doubt we have had many glorious innovations to many of them seemed like poor copies of Arstotzkan tech. But despite its short comings I can't help but love the SPAT it in my opinion is significantly more practical and useful then the Arstotzkan behemoth. I have whole heartedly considered stealing one. Though I don't think command would approve of that but they seriously couldn't blame me who wouldn't want to command a titan of the battlefield like the SPAT. But I suppose that'll have to wait for another time Ive received orders my unit is transferring to the far eastern flank of the front it seems that command is going to try a break through there.
June 1916
My unit arrived yesterday to the far eastern front? and I must say the sea breeze is quite refreshing after a hard ride especially since i still haven't mastered my riding skills. But it seems like this assault is going to be a glorious one that will truly break the Arstotzkans this is the largest assembly of Moskurgian engineering prowess I've seen since the beginning of this war. A full squadron of new SPAT's, and a company of armored calvary, as well a company of traditional calvary who my units been attached too are going to launch a offensive along with the infantry already along the front to try and break through the enemy and then begin to encircle them from the east. I truly am excited to be a part of this offensive I will bring much glory to my family and to Moskurg in these coming months.
July 1916
Perhaps I over estimated our SPAT's after just one month we have lost two of them one was lost in an engagement with the Arstotzkan behemoth the other was lost when the ground gave out beneath it as it tried to cross a trench miring it in the mud and try as we did no amount of horses or men seemed unable to dislodge it. The Struuunks likewise suffered only able to act as mobile machine gun emplacements and unable to keep up with traditional calvary or even the infantry due to the fact they would either have to find a gap in the trenches or construct a bridge to let themselves over the trenches. So somehow amongst all these technological marvels it has fallen to the relics of a bygone age and mere infantry to sustain this push. Ive begun to fear that command has made a mistake with this offensive. But on the plus size I led my first successful calvary charge last week. As the infantry overwhelmed a section of the Arstotzkan trench a small section even perhaps maybe five meters wide the Arstotzkans showed there true colors and completely abandoned said trench. I issued the order to charge to my men spurred into action excited that I finally unleashed them on a calvary charge. I did my best to keep up without falling off the horse. It was an interesting sensation killing a man from horseback its not like my officers scimitar hadn't seen its fair share of action since i received it last year but thats always been in the tight confines of a trench. Cutting someone down in the open field had a completely different feeling to it almost like it was too easy. But I suppose the cowardly Arstotzkan dogs got what they deserved.
September 1916
Well it looks like I may be able to command a SPAT after all. Today are last SPAT was ambushed as it went over a trench that the infantry should of cleared and the crew was shot out of it. We'll just have to see what the higher ups decide we may abandon the SPAT so we can continue the push now that we're so close to breaking through the enemies flank we have to keep up the momentum while its on our side.
November 1916
The Assault has failed as much as I hate to say it. Just as victory seemed certain that we would finally break through the Arstotzkan reserves and be able to begin outflanking there frontline a wave of artstotzkan reinforcements showed up. They were accompanied by two of there steel behemoths that we had no answer for then trying to outflank them with our Struuunk's. There infantry also fought with a new weapon a hand held machine gun of sorts its small yet fires extremely quickly. Im going to try and steal one for myself if I can i imagine they'd be very effective from horseback. Thats assuming I survive the rest of the year that is.
December 1916
Damnit Ive been promoted again freaking Menou. I now have command of whats left of the Calvary company that I was attached to when this offensive started. The attack was a relative failure the only positive thing that came out of it was that we forced the Arstotzkans to move troops to what was once a fairly quiet front. Frankly the failure of that assault has gotten me thinking about what could have gone better. Other then simply more troops and SPAT's that is. Frankly I believe if we had some sort of gunboat with two or three bombardiers on it pushing along the coast with the assault it could of made a difference pounding enemy positions ahead of us offering more anti tank capabilities and depending on the size of the vessel it could of even acted as an evacuation craft. Or if we had some sort of reconnaissance that would of told us of Arstotzkan reinforcements we could of prepared for them or at least retreated before they got here. Well I suppose this is a sour note to end the year on I have to talk to Menou about the ship idea maybe he'll be able to put it in the right channels to see it implemented
to be continued
Hey guys Im wondering if you like the change in writing style from the first adventures of a Moskurg soldier i figure that since he's been on the front for six years at this point a little bit of maturity would be expected but if you found the goofier tones of the first one more enjoyable I can go back to that style of writing
Post by: Andres on July 28, 2015, 12:29:23 am
Post by: evilcherry on July 28, 2015, 12:29:42 am
Yeah, yeah, it's all fun to laugh when you're rolling three sixes in a row, but NEXT TIME YOU'LL PAY, YOU'LL ALL PAY! TIGERS SHALL DEVOUR YOU!To the tune of?
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/Iituem/moskurg_zps0piqmcvl.png)
Moskurg, Moskurg, Moskurg STRONK,
Beauty in the face of TAONKs,
Gods may oppose us,
Hope they may grind,
But with great weapons
We desecrate shrines!
Moskurg, Moskurg, Moskurg STRONK,
In our war we can do no WRONK,
Fast as the desert sands,
Stronk-as-a tiger's love,
We shall crush our foes
With glor-ious death from above!
*a single tear falls from a Moskurg soldier's eye*
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 03:25:08 am
1910 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6391542#msg6391542)
1911 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6392757#msg6392757)
1912 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6393888#msg6393888)
1913 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6396473#msg6396473)
1914 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6397622#msg6397622)
1915 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6398772#msg6398772)
1916 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6401306#msg6401306)
1917 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6404255#msg6404255)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 03:34:00 am
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 03:40:54 am
A question. You saud the extra spy moksburg got would not be replaced if it was killed. Does that mean it won't be replaced if either of them is killed, or just that spy. If the latter, they can park him in contra pretty much forever.Agent Feather Hammer will be replaced if killed. Agent Tiger Fucker will not.
1917 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This year both research teams are having a little trouble. Moskurg spent the whole year developing the Model 1 and 2 Portable Radios, which are still large and unyieldy, though this puts them ahead of Arstotzka's telegraphs and hand messengers. Arstotzka made a brilliant small petrol motor, and then put it on a motor cycle frame which leaves much to be desired. Anticipating an increase in armor on the battlefield, Arstotzka also designed armor piercing ammunition, which fits their 7.62mm rifles and machine guns.
On the plains, Moskurg slowly carts their new Model 2 Radio into the forward trenches. While it can't exactly be used by scouts, this enables more artillery to hit Arstotzkan lines with more accuracy, from further away, but this is mitigated by the rarity of radios in the trenches. Reinforcements are also better deployed. In the trenches, Moskurg soldiers warm their meals on the hot casing of the Model 2 radio. Each one is replaced weekly due to dirt, water damage, and the effects of bullets. Arstotzka's new AS-M17 motorcycle primarily sees use by messengers, and goes between trenches and rear lines. It can be faster than a horse, but quickly earns a reputation for inflicting non-battlefield casualties, despite advice from High Command that it be driven slowly. In this area the new use Arstotzkan armor-piercing ammo see some gainst SPATs. Infantry who encounter a SPAT are usually hiding behind an AS-T15, and while rounds from a Nosin can now often pierce the armor, usually these encounters are decided by fire from the two vehicle's artillery guns. Infantry are again fighting in cities, and Arstotzkan soldiers using AS-F14's and AS-MC16's fight against Moskurg soldiers with pistols, sawed-off shotguns and swords. Arstotzkan officers soundly beat Moskurg officers with their submachine guns, but for common soldiers Moskurg has an advantage. By the skin of their teeth, Arstozka takes more ground, and winter boots step into the sand. There are a few engagements: In the open sand, Moskurg cavalry with M1 Service Rifles are very effective, and aside from the short-ranged AS-MC16, and terribly unreliable motorbike machine guns, Arstotzka lacks a mobile automatic weapon. The Struunk I's armor is not difficult to pierce, but it moves well in the desert, and multiple AS-T15s are killed with machine gun fire from Struunks. Struunk pilot Husayn the Lion personally records three AS-T15 kills, and is named Moskurg's first Ace. Arstotzka will gain not an inch past where they can dig trenches, in their current state. (Astotzka 4/4) If Arstotzka holds the plains next turn they will gain access to these resources.
In the mountains, neither side gains ground. They have been at a stalemate for a while now. The Nosin, AS-F14, M1 Service Rifle and Brumby are the most common weapons, along with the AS-1911 mortar. Both sides have become relatively defensive and there are fewer casualties here than last year. (Arstotzka 2/4, Moskurg 2/4)
In the jungle, Arstotzka cuts roads for the deployment of their motorcycles, but they only penetrate halway into the jungle. Fighting occurs on roads only accessible by vehicles from the desert, and in the thick jungle. Moskurg's radios are kept in tents, but still sometimes fail from the humidity. Arstotzkan incursions into Moskurg controlled jungle are more often threatened by Bombardiers now, but the need for target coordinates to be sent from a camp and the inaccuracy of the Bombardier are limiting factors. Most fighting occurs at mid or close range between Arstotzkan scouts, Moskurg scouts and camps, and tigers. Encounters between patrols have Arstotzka with the advantage of the AS-MC16, and the AS-F14 when it works, but the Brumby is very effective as well. Moskurg patrols have taken to waiting at roads and clearings, where they can have a little more distance to mitigate the value of their enemies' submachine gun. A Struunk on the road is effectively a mobile machine gun nest, with dubious cover that at least stops 9mm bullets. Man for man a Struunk crew can out-gun Arstotzkan scouts, but Struunks are not plentiful. Sometimes Arstotzkans fell a tree to block the road, then hide and fire on a Struunk that stops. The close quarters of the roads do Moskurg's vehicle no favors, many are lost. Moskurg holds their ground, but barely. (Arstotzka 3/4, Moskurg 1/4).
Secret stuff happened. Note that all espionage now happens at the same time the battle report is compiled, instead of during the year. Sabotage will typically affect that year's production of equipment rather than permanently affect the designs. Typically.
Attention!
A small cadre of German engineers has defected from Germany, complaining that German command refuses to implement their ideas and will probably lose the war. They are considering Forenia as an out-of-the-way place to gain asylum. Produce your best piece of propaganda to encourage them to join you, and earn one Design Credit. And possibly Germany's ire.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 28, 2015, 04:09:51 am
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 04:16:48 am
Post by: andrea on July 28, 2015, 04:19:44 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 28, 2015, 04:28:37 am
Same goes for relatively intact SPATs and Stuunks
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 04:35:19 am
Edit : On a side note, what does their ace do. Is it just a target for us?
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 04:50:28 am
The Moskurg Ace doesn't really do anything in terms of actual rules. Not yet, at least. We'll be following his exploits though.
Arstotzkan soldiers captured some enormous ovens full of dim light bulbs, which failed after a single borscht spill. They were deemed useless, and an example of how Moskurg engineers are too incompetent to even build a reliable oven.
Also, I updated the OP of all three threads, with current rules in the OOC and some character stuff in the nation threads.
Post by: Taricus on July 28, 2015, 05:32:01 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 05:36:35 am
Hold on, I've just noticed. How is the Arstotzkan field gun actually helping with their artillery when it's designed as a direct fire gun.Direct fire doesn't mean it's useless as Artillery. It's not great at eliminating fortresses or deep shelters, but you have none of those.
Post by: Iituem on July 28, 2015, 06:47:39 am
Less amusing that they are winning anyway.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 06:48:52 am
I find it fairly amusing that Arstotzka chose one of our rejected designs for their design phase.Which one?
Less amusing that they are winning anyway.
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 06:55:45 am
Post by: Andres on July 28, 2015, 07:21:54 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on July 28, 2015, 10:14:54 am
Spoiler: picture (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: link to pdf (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on July 28, 2015, 11:20:06 am
(http://i.imgur.com/Zpki29d.png)
Post by: Kashyyk on July 28, 2015, 11:27:45 am
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2015, 01:37:01 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 28, 2015, 01:49:12 pm
Penetrating 20mm of armor? Absurd!
How do you think our glorious nation can afford so much steel armor? Let me let you in on a little secret, friend. It is actually an alloy with a disturbing amount of nickel and tin. At least, that's also going to be my explanation next time I'm caught naming a slightly unrealistic armor thickness and performance. Your armor technology will become more effective per-thickness as it ages and improves though.
If I make too many mistakes of this nature, I will simply be forced to show my "Not a bloody firearms historian" badge.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 02:03:16 pm
The SP-AT has 20mm of armor. There's no way you could pen that with 7.62, AP ammo or no.On that note, you only have 15 mm of armor.
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 04:29:03 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 04:30:08 pm
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 04:33:45 pm
I suugest you try that in a few months. Currently, there are too many design games and they're killing each other.Probably wise to do that, yes.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 28, 2015, 04:49:45 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 04:57:00 pm
I do admit though, this game has a pretty nasty forum footprint with its three threads. I don't think I could keep it organized otherwise though.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 28, 2015, 05:01:13 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 28, 2015, 05:11:38 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2015, 05:28:40 pm
Oh, OK. :P *pats Sensei* I've actually been working with metal since a week ago. We don't have any single sheet (of steel) that's that thick, but we do use the forklift to move stacks of them, because you can't possibly move more than 2 at a time since we cut them 30-50 inches in length and they're all four feet wide and they each weight about 20 pounds.Penetrating 20mm of armor? Absurd!
How do you think our glorious nation can afford so much steel armor? Let me let you in on a little secret, friend. It is actually an alloy with a disturbing amount of nickel and tin. At least, that's also going to be my explanation next time I'm caught naming a slightly unrealistic armor thickness and performance. Your armor technology will become more effective per-thickness as it ages and improves though.
If I make too many mistakes of this nature, I will simply be forced to show my "Not a bloody firearms historian" badge.
Post by: tryrar on July 28, 2015, 05:37:34 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2015, 05:43:35 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 05:48:36 pm
Just so I'm clear, how does that design credit work again? Is it just a bonus to a single design action or does it grant a single additional design?A single additional design.
While I'm at it, is there also an explanation for why our SP-AT's 91mm doesn't badly outrange the steam tank's 80mm?They're just pretty similar guns, altogether. That's not a drastic difference in size and the length of the cartridges isn't even stated. Making the round 11mm wider is not a guaranteed significant boost in range.
Also, so far Moskurg hasn't submitted any propaganda. Battle Report is either within the hour, late tonight.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 28, 2015, 06:05:30 pm
While I'm at it, is there also an explanation for why our SP-AT's 91mm doesn't badly outrange the steam tank's 80mm?Your gun is a howitzer. That means shorter barrel and small propelant charge to lob a larger projectile a shorter distance than the equivalent gun.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 28, 2015, 06:07:50 pm
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 06:12:16 pm
Well, theres mine, which appears stalled, and then theres UR's, which I think is waiting on them.Besides waiting to have have less design games going on at once, I'd like to ask Sensei how the rules for his work in the bits we don't get to see, but given that I'm currently playing in this one, I'd prefer to wait until the game is over before asking for a peak backstage.
...Besides, waiting gives Sensei time to make the rules even better as he playtests them. :P
Besides, we may go into the future!Only if we're really luck! That'd be fun. ^_^
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2015, 06:15:05 pm
Try a German 7.5cm HEAT on a Tiger I hull, then try a German 8.8cm on the same target. http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/ You'll find that 13mm is the difference between zero effect, and clean penetration.
You used your 80mm field gun for your tank. Sensei calls it a field gun, but he means field howitzer, since it's used as an indirect artillery weapon.While I'm at it, is there also an explanation for why our SP-AT's 91mm doesn't badly outrange the steam tank's 80mm?Your gun is a howitzer. That means shorter barrel and small propelant charge to lob a larger projectile a shorter distance than the equivalent gun.
Post by: Knave on July 28, 2015, 06:16:13 pm
Besides, we may go into the future!Only if we're really luck! That'd be fun. ^_^
At this rate we'll be throwing mechs and power armour at each other by the 40's anyways ;)
Post by: Happerry on July 28, 2015, 06:19:01 pm
(Whenever it says '(Take a swig)', do not sing this, but instead take a drink from your mug.)
Moskurg is Great! (Take a swig)
Moskurg Men Are Brave! (Take a swig)
By the fangs of a Tiger! (Take a swig)
Upon Our Flag! (Take a swig)
By the Horsekillers of our forefathers! (Take a swig)
By our snazzy capes! (Take a swig)
Moskurg Is Supreme! (Take a swig)
Beware our guns! (Take a swig)
For Moskurg is best! (Take a swig)
All shall know! (Take a swig)
When we run them over with our Struunk! (Take a swig)
For Moskurg is best! (Take a swig)
By the fangs of a Tiger! (Take a swig)
Upon Our Flag! (Take a swig)
By the Horsekillers of our forefathers! (Take a swig)
By our snazzy capes! (Take a swig)
Moskurg Is Supreme! (Take a swig)
And Arstotzka Stinks! (Take a swig)
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 28, 2015, 06:31:05 pm
a) Heavier shell doesn't mean longer range\higher velocity in all cases. It depends on length of the barrel, % of propellant in shells , aerodynamics and more factors
b) Your shell may be shorter than ours and be smaller. There are a reason why shells described as xxmm*xxmm
c) Fun fact: when USSR decided what gun to use for the new version of T-34 both 57mm and 85mm were considered. 57mm offered better penetration but 85 mm offered way larger HE shell and it was chosen because of that.
Post by: tryrar on July 28, 2015, 06:36:15 pm
Rifled artillery would be dope.
I assumed actually bith were rifled, due to them being small shells. Hey Sensei, are our artillery rifled?
Post by: Sensei on July 28, 2015, 07:11:55 pm
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I amended the T1 Smasher with an electric turret motor in the description, like the Struunk. The Struunk I and SPAT are now merely Expensive.
The Moskurg army developed a major breakthrough in TAONKS this year, with the T1 Smasher. It has similar armor and weapons to the AS-T15, but is smaller, faster and has a rotating turret. They also began deploying their copy of the AS-MC16 SMG, called the Cascade. Arstotzka design the AS-AC18, an autocannon which rapidly fires 20x100mm rounds from a 25-round magazine. With armor-piercing rounds it can penetrate most armor on the field. They also revised the AS-F14 to be the AS-F14A, with a more reliable action, quickly re-loadable box magazine, and optional full length barrel.
The trenches that border the desert are lined with an even mixture of AS-1910 machine guns and AS-AC18 autocannons, to repel assault. Arstotzkan troops push past the trenches into the desert, riding motorcycles for the most part, with some AS-T15 steam tanks leading the push. AS-T15's escorted by motorcycles, face either convoys of Struunks or T1 Smashers escorted by cavalry. In either case, Moskurg has the advantage, the AS-T15 is too easily outmaneuvered. T1 Smashers can frequently attack from outside the AS-T15's narrow arc of fire to score a kill, even if it takes them a few shots to score a hit while moving. A Smasher's armor is only penetrated by cannons, which the motorcycles don't have and AS-T15's don't have on their sides. Arstotzkan motorcycle troopers are about an even match for Moskurg cavalry, they have machine guns but are prone to mechanical failure, and can't shoot behind themselves. Struunks are often hunted and killed by motorcycles, but their armor means their Stallion is effective from much further away than even armor piercing AS-1910's. Some sidecar gunners use the AS-F14A rifle to good effect. A couple times, AS-T15 crews abandon their vehicle due to heat. The SPAT has been mostly used as mobile artillery, able to shell Arstotzkan trenches and retreat. The Brumby and T1 Smasher are both boons to Moskurg trench assaults, but the T1 Smasher lacks good machine gun cover and is vulnerable to the AS-AC18 autocannon. The autocannon allows troops to stop Struunks from the edge of M1 Stallion effectiveness and kill T1 Smashers before they get many shells off, and the shortened Bombardier is just not that accurate. The Model 2 Radio is sometimes brought to the front lines by cavalry groups, but is vulnerable in the open and destroyed. Luckily for Arstotzka, Moskurg does not succeed in coordinating enough artillery support to destroy autocannon emplacements and make a Smasher push. The Cascade doesn't see much use, except by cavalry officers against motorcycles (where it is pretty effective). (Arstotzka 4/4)
In the mountains, more Arstotzkan troops adopt the AS-F14. Some still prefer the Nosin for longer range engagements, as the AS-F14's open bolt moves the gun slightly when fired. Moskurg casualties are greater than last year, but the Brumby lets them hold their ground. (Each faction 2/4)
Arstotzka cuts roads deeper into the jungle to allow passage of their troops by motorcycle. In a few places, Moskurg roads are brought out to meet them and Struunk assaults are staged. The AS-F14A replaces the Nosin Magant in popular use here, and Moskurg officers giddily unwrap blue and silver bows on the boxes of their new Cascade SMGs. Struunk assaults on roads are short and cause high casualties for both sides, but utterly useless in range of AS-AC18's. SPATs make their way down the road to shell these positions, and where close combat occurs, Moskurg troops have the advantage on Arstotzkan ones. Moskurg gains ground. (Each faction 2/4).
The German engineers join Arstotzka, Arstotzka earns 1 Design Credit and may make two designs in 1919.
Meanwhile in Europe, the allies win WWI, forcing Germany to sign a ceasefire that begins at noon, on December 12th.
Espionage actions this year were generally unsuccessful all around.
Design phase of 1919 begins.
Post by: Andres on July 28, 2015, 07:22:35 pm
Post by: Playergamer on July 28, 2015, 07:24:39 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 28, 2015, 07:26:46 pm
Post by: Andres on July 28, 2015, 07:32:53 pm
We stole your gun and changed the measurements to imperial, so it's only expensive.Fair enough.
Post by: Iituem on July 28, 2015, 07:34:46 pm
Post by: heydude6 on July 28, 2015, 07:45:31 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 28, 2015, 07:54:33 pm
Post by: Andres on July 28, 2015, 08:02:43 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 28, 2015, 08:47:23 pm
Post by: Andres on July 29, 2015, 12:46:35 am
Oh, thats THAT song! Awesome!It's from Age of War and Age of War 2, so I guess that makes it even more appropriate.
Hey Sensei? I think you need to redesign how tanks are done. As it is right now, we could have 30mm of shit armour or 10mm of good armour and there's no reason to pick one over the other except for cosmetic reasons. Moreover, we don't have any decent way of classifying what grade of materials we want to use for our tanks. Can you recommend or devise a way for us to deal with this issue?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 29, 2015, 01:58:50 am
I proposed it. It's a field gun, long barrel and all, and optimized for range so as to outrange your Bombardier.You used your 80mm field gun for your tank. Sensei calls it a field gun, but he means field howitzer, since it's used as an indirect artillery weapon.While I'm at it, is there also an explanation for why our SP-AT's 91mm doesn't badly outrange the steam tank's 80mm?Your gun is a howitzer. That means shorter barrel and small propelant charge to lob a larger projectile a shorter distance than the equivalent gun.
Simple. Define performance rather than thickness. So say, armor strong enough to stop a 0.60 cal bullet or something like that.Oh, thats THAT song! Awesome!It's from Age of War and Age of War 2, so I guess that makes it even more appropriate.
Hey Sensei? I think you need to redesign how tanks are done. As it is right now, we could have 30mm of shit armour or 10mm of good armour and there's no reason to pick one over the other except for cosmetic reasons. Moreover, we don't have any decent way of classifying what grade of materials we want to use for our tanks. Can you recommend or devise a way for us to deal with this issue?
Post by: Andres on July 29, 2015, 02:29:59 am
Post by: Kashyyk on July 29, 2015, 02:35:24 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 29, 2015, 03:09:36 am
It's also from this weird old flash game I played all the time.Oh, thats THAT song! Awesome!It's from Age of War and Age of War 2, so I guess that makes it even more appropriate.
Post by: Andres on July 29, 2015, 03:27:55 am
I'm pretty sure that's Age of War, unless you're talking about something else. What was the game about?It's also from this weird old flash game I played all the time.Oh, thats THAT song! Awesome!It's from Age of War and Age of War 2, so I guess that makes it even more appropriate.
Post by: Aseaheru on July 29, 2015, 03:29:01 am
Post by: Sensei on July 29, 2015, 03:30:09 am
I must ponder it, some more, perhaps.
Post by: Sensei on July 29, 2015, 05:48:56 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 29, 2015, 05:53:59 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 29, 2015, 06:14:29 am
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 29, 2015, 06:15:50 am
Post by: andrea on July 29, 2015, 06:18:52 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 29, 2015, 06:23:42 am
Post by: Andres on July 29, 2015, 08:39:35 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 29, 2015, 11:06:46 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 29, 2015, 11:07:28 am
Post by: adwarf on July 29, 2015, 05:21:49 pm
Post by: adwarf on July 29, 2015, 05:23:00 pm
Hey Sensei, is it ok if Arstotzka gets a free Revision token from the Germans too? It's not like they'd only stick around for half the year and skip town the other half, plus it balances out the fact that Moskurg's spy advantage is ongoing.These bonuses aren't meant to be balanced, if you want to argue that they are then Moskurg should get bonuses for the Anthem bonuses you guys got a few updates back.
EDIT: Sorry, meant to hit edit and accidental pressed reply :\
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 29, 2015, 05:24:03 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 29, 2015, 05:25:09 pm
Sensei will ceasefires occur at all, or are we handwaving the endless amount of dead soldiers on both side, and the need to recover from that? :PI like the endless war so I hope there aren't any cease fires.
Sensei, at what in game time, will the game end?When every Artsotskan is dead.
Post by: tryrar on July 29, 2015, 07:31:35 pm
Post by: Knave on July 29, 2015, 07:32:55 pm
Post by: Tomasque on July 29, 2015, 08:28:18 pm
Post by: QuakeIV on July 30, 2015, 03:48:51 am
Post by: Sensei on July 30, 2015, 04:29:41 am
Woah, this is really cool.Yes, yes it is. 8)
I am dying to see our triplane in action.And your pilots are too.
Hey Sensei, is it ok if Arstotzka gets a free Revision token from the Germans too? It's not like they'd only stick around for half the year and skip town the other half, plus it balances out the fact that Moskurg's spy advantage is ongoing.The German engineers have taken their payment for teaching your engineers how wings and propellers work, and absconded to retirement in cozy winter cottages on the south shore with the money. Evidently they didn't stick around through the designing of the AS-A19. Oh yeah, I'm not going to call it the AS-A18 because it was designed in 1919 and we have a gun called the AS-AC18 which is way too confusing.
So, whats the deal behind selling stuff? Can we only do it when theres an event?For now, yeah. I don't want to take a bunch of arms market actions each turn.
well. espionage and design is done already, I suppose that they can't do anything to counter now.What I've been doing recently, contrary to the first few turns where espionage could directly affect the design phase, turns, is rolling for Espionage when I write the battle report.
Sensei will ceasefires occur at all, or are we handwaving the endless amount of dead soldiers on both side, and the need to recover from that? :PI considered the idea, but decided it wouldn't be fun to design weapons without seeing them perform. The alternative would be just skipping forward a few years and I feel pretty ehhh about that. The one other idea I considered is "We have signed a treaty which bans us from researching military technology. Design a parade float, a water gun, and a tourist blimp while trying to get as much military potential out of them as possible." But yeah basically I decided it was more fun to keep fighting all the time and not worry about the insignificant stuff like so-called "population decline" or "extinction". In the grim darkness of the 20th century, there is only war.
Sensei, at what in game time, will the game end?I'm not setting a hard end. Ideally, some side will win before I just don't have time to update any more.
Eh, I think sensei deserves a rest! It's been less than 24 hours, and it seems pretty hectic to manage/write.Hehe, I ended up being really busy today. It'll happen now and again. I need a good couple of hours alone on the computer to do a good update, ideally. I read a lot of wikipedia articles on firearms, tanks and planes now. Despite this, I still let a lot of typos and mistakes through. :P
Quote
Alright, here's my design plan: The Mary Sue armored battle tank has 30mm of hardened steel armor, 90 horsepower from a reliable engine, and a cannon with coaxial MG and electrical turret and air conditioning. It weights 8 tons and goes 32MPH/51KPH. It costs 3 ore and 2 oil.No plan survives contact with the dice. Also, so far I've avoiding naming numbers for tonnage and horsepower and I'm going to keep doing so if I can help it.
1919 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1919 marks the belated beginning of the war in the air for both nations. Two wood-and-cloth airplanes have taken to the skies in similar quantities, which will result in one-on-one dogfights for air superiority, and the right of way to mess with whoever's on the ground. The Model 1 Biplane is a sturdy, simple, decent plane with a machine gun, but burdened with a heavy and expensive radio. The AS-A19B triplane was much less successful, with very poor structure and flight characteristics, but it at least packs the terrifying firepower of two autocannons, making it a threat to ground armor. The Arstotzkans also built the AS-HV19, a sturdy and sensible truck that transports ore, oil and troops. Moskurg engineers designed three new artillery shells: A smoke, anti-infantry fragmentation, and incendiary shell.
The war in the air has begun. Moskurg biplanes fly over Arstotzkan formations, attempting to radio accurate information to their artillery (SPATs). Arsotzka rushes to build an air strip on the planes, and then fields planes to attack Moskurg trains, especially those shipping ore from the mountains. The Model 1 Biplane lacks firepower and needs to get close to be accurate, but is far more maneuverable than AS-19B's. A decisive advantage goes to the Model 1, but AS-19B's get some kills in head-on attacks due to their much greater range and firepower. All planes suffer somewhat from a small ammunition supply, being able to kill only a few targets before returning, if that. Andrei Zuyev is named the first Arstotzkan ace with four kills, survives three runway disasters involving collapsed landing gear. The collapsed landing gear is peculiarly persistent, despite not appearing in previous testing, and kills a number of pilots. (Moskurg has air advantage)
In the jungle, the effect of air support is not great, AS-19B's cannot get good runs on targets and Arstotzkan positions are either hidden from Model 1 radio operators, or already known. Moskurg pushes are frequently accompanied by a SPAT with smoke rounds, which can change a medium range conflict to a short range one, where Moskurg troops have an advantage. The fire and shrapnel ammunitions are dangerous, but basically require hits with the same accuracy that a regular explosive shell requires in order to kill (though the fire is effective on wooden palisades). Moskurg gains ground. (Moskurg 3/4)
In the mountains the infantry stalemate persists despite occasional bombing and strafing. Both air assault techniques are not extremely effective against the few and spread out positions. In the north part of the mountains, AS-A19B's fly in small groups to assault Moskurg trains. These trains are unarmed and depend entirely on the Moskurg air force for defense. A couple trains are destroyed, showing the airborne AS-AC18 autocannons to be terribly effective, but most of the time Arsotzkan planes are shot down before threatening the railway. (Each 2/4)
In the desert/planes boundary, the fighting is intense. Arstotzkan planes launch from a near airstrip and are closely involved in the defense of the plains. Their anti-armor effect is significant, and can stop T1 Smashers in their tracks. Ground forces in general have a difficult time aiming at airplanes, and are not a significant cause of air casualties. New ammunition employed by the Moskurg army is effective at killing entrenched troops and the smoke rounds provide cover for charging soldiers, though the sheer number of Arstotzkan rapid-fire weapons can't be adequately covered by SPATs (which Moskurg soldiers have taken to calling Self Propelled Artillery). Accurate artillery support is provided by Moskurg scout aircraft, but still T1 Smashers don't often arrive at Arstotzkan trenches. When they do, they are prone getting stuck in the trenches with tread failures- when this happens, Arstotzkan soldiers will climb the tank, wait for the top hatch to open, and blindly spray an SMG inside. Moskurg can bring the fight to the trenches, but they can't sustain an armored push and artillery marching without armor support is ultimately killed by overwhelming machine gun fire, despite the advantages of accurate artillery. Arstotzka holds the fields (A 4/4)
Russia is fighting a civil war. The Red Army will offer an Expense Credit (reduces the cost of one item for a year) in exchange for a terrifying tank design for maximum fear and oppression by the 1920 Battle Report.
An unnamed organization is offering an Expense Credit for the designs to a powerful, concealable weapon.
You may now design for 1920.
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 04:55:35 am
Oh yeah, I'm not going to call it the AS-A18 because it was designed in 1919 and we have a gun called the AS-AC18 which is way too confusing.That's fine. I meant it to be called the AS-A19 but I misspelled it.
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 04:58:20 am
EDIT: Sorry for double post. Brain went weird.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 04:59:35 am
Um, Sensei? Our trucks were supposed to get us Ore this turn, bringing us to 4 Ore and making our tanks Expensive.Pretty sure that only happens the turn after they were designed.
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:02:07 am
We've had these trucks all year, as evidenced by the fact that we've had airplanes all this year.Um, Sensei? Our trucks were supposed to get us Ore this turn, bringing us to 4 Ore and making our tanks Expensive.Pretty sure that only happens the turn after they were designed.
Post by: Sensei on July 30, 2015, 05:12:25 am
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:14:59 am
Post by: Sensei on July 30, 2015, 05:16:20 am
Can we switch it to gather Oil without issue? One of the conditions we stated for it gathering Ore was that it doesn't prevent us from getting Oil when the Antegra Oil runs out.Yes, that can happen without issue.
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:34:47 am
Post by: Sheb on July 30, 2015, 05:39:15 am
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:53:36 am
My guess is that we did counter-espionnage, and failed to stop the sabotage of our planes. Dunno what their other spy did, possibly counter-espionnage.They sabotaged our plane, so it was a wasted action.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 30, 2015, 05:54:30 am
Quote
An unnamed organization is offering an Expense Credit for the designs to a powerful, concealable weapon.Is it a contract for a small arm?
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 06:35:39 am
EDIT: Since Moskurg has no experience with designing semi-automatic weaponry, magazine-using weaponry, or even the Cascade itself (only adjusting the measurements), does that mean they'll have trouble revising their Cascades, assuming they choose to do so?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 08:27:36 am
Quote
Moskurg can bring the fight to the trenches, but they can't sustain an armored push and artillery marching without armor support is ultimately killed by overwhelming machine gun fire, despite the advantages of accurate artillery. Arstotzka holds the fields
Shouldn't the advantage of accurate artillery be on our side. Moksburg utilizes a Howitzer without any recoil compensation. Our state of the art hydropneumatic systems allows us to fire accurate and twice as fast. Add to that that we have more artillery, and with longer range...
Planes spotting doesn't really work when your artillery can only shoot 4-5 km far, and has to be re-aimed after every shot (which makes walking closer to the target impossible).
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 08:32:48 am
Yeah, our artillery seems really undervalued. Absolutely no way could they ever have more artillery than us at least. Also, how well have our ubiquitous Light Mortars been doing against enemy vehicles?QuoteMoskurg can bring the fight to the trenches, but they can't sustain an armored push and artillery marching without armor support is ultimately killed by overwhelming machine gun fire, despite the advantages of accurate artillery. Arstotzka holds the fields
Shouldn't the advantage of accurate artillery be on our side. Moksburg utilizes a Howitzer without any recoil compensation. Our state of the art hydropneumatic systems allows us to fire accurate and twice as fast. Add to that that we have more artillery, and with longer range...
Planes spotting doesn't really work when your artillery can only shoot 4-5 km far, and has to be re-aimed after every shot (which makes walking closer to the target impossible).
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 08:41:29 am
That, and the fact that we have a number of self-propelled guns probably means our artillery is in position where it's needed more often.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 08:56:41 am
Quote
A skilled crew can fire about 10 times a minute, through the gun moves a little when fired, so it can bombard inaccurately at its full rate of fire or (with a skilled commander) come close enough to often hit trenches and emplacements at about half the rate of fire.You need skilled commanders and crew to reach 5 rounds per minute that sometimes hit trenches.
Quote
It can fire about 12 times a minute, and has a hydro-pneumatic suspension system: it doesn't go off target between shots, and the barrel moves into the frame every time it is fired.We can fire 12 times per minute, accurately.
That, and the fact that we have a number of self-propelled guns probably means our artillery is in position where it's needed more often.The selfproppeled gun needs to be prepared before firing, which constitues a serious disadvantagd.
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 09:35:02 am
Post by: Aseaheru on July 30, 2015, 10:01:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 10:26:14 am
Moves faster than regular artillery though.Doesn't matter much if you assault a fortified position though. And is hardly an accuracy matter.
Post by: Sheb on July 30, 2015, 11:24:39 am
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 11:34:15 am
Post by: Sheb on July 30, 2015, 11:37:18 am
Our gunners dont reposition: they just move to the next gun and start firing it. :p
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 12:00:49 pm
I mean, all a fragmentation shell is a high explosive in a metal case with a timer to set it off just above the ground.
After that unfortunate incident with Experimental Weapons Team #1, the team sets about perfecting more reliable explosives.
[6] The dice are with you here. Your team perfects the explosives used in both the propellant and shell for the mortar, and implements a time fuse so that shells don't like unexploded, which is both safer for your own troops and causes them to be more effective against the enemy.
Now, we wait.
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 12:18:30 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 12:22:33 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 12:25:24 pm
Also, sheb, to answer your question in the Arstotzkan thread, it's the jungles that have the extra bay, not the plains. There's a map in the OP now if you ever forget.
Post by: Sheb on July 30, 2015, 12:30:28 pm
Post by: Iituem on July 30, 2015, 12:33:45 pm
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 12:35:33 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 30, 2015, 02:22:55 pm
Arstotzkan artillery is more accurate, but what matters more right now is that Moskurg troops are mobile where Arstotzkan ones are sitting in trenches.QuoteMoskurg can bring the fight to the trenches, but they can't sustain an armored push and artillery marching without armor support is ultimately killed by overwhelming machine gun fire, despite the advantages of accurate artillery. Arstotzka holds the fields
Shouldn't the advantage of accurate artillery be on our side. Moksburg utilizes a Howitzer without any recoil compensation. Our state of the art hydropneumatic systems allows us to fire accurate and twice as fast. Add to that that we have more artillery, and with longer range...
Planes spotting doesn't really work when your artillery can only shoot 4-5 km far, and has to be re-aimed after every shot (which makes walking closer to the target impossible).
Actually, reading the OP, I think it's intentional there's no bay near or in the plains.Yeah, I originally meant for there to be four bays but I mistyped and decided to own it. I'll probably say that the jungle doesn't support an airstrip, or not one big enough for bombers, or something.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 30, 2015, 02:26:56 pm
Post by: Playergamer on July 30, 2015, 02:29:24 pm
Hey sensei, would it be possible to burn down the jungle?I can probably answer that for him. It's wet, so you won't get a massive fire. You might be able to defoliate it, but burning probably won't work.
Post by: Tomasque on July 30, 2015, 02:50:49 pm
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 30, 2015, 02:52:56 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 02:54:35 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 30, 2015, 02:58:57 pm
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on July 30, 2015, 03:02:39 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 03:28:41 pm
Arstotzkan artillery is more accurate, but what matters more right now is that Moskurg troops are mobile where Arstotzkan ones are sitting in trenches.Being mobile means giving up their radio however, making their observation planes useless. At that point, the advantage is back to us, thanks to higher fire rate, better accuracy and better range.
Post by: Sheb on July 30, 2015, 03:30:30 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on July 30, 2015, 03:41:41 pm
Post by: andrea on July 30, 2015, 04:44:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 04:48:38 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on July 30, 2015, 04:53:14 pm
Post by: andrea on July 30, 2015, 05:00:52 pm
Post by: Parsely on July 30, 2015, 05:23:41 pm
even if we didn't hold the mountains, they wouldn't be able to transport armor and artillery across it. we can barely use machineguns and mortars up there!There are such things as roads you know. The Struunks and motorcycles and SPATs all fight there. How do you think anyone gets supplies if there were no roads for horse carriages?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 30, 2015, 05:26:19 pm
We have trucks, which obsoleted our horses. You still use them.even if we didn't hold the mountains, they wouldn't be able to transport armor and artillery across it. we can barely use machineguns and mortars up there!There are such things as roads you know. The Struunks and motorcycles and SPATs all fight there. How do you think anyone gets supplies if there were no roads for horse carriages?
No Struunks and SPAT in the mountains either.
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:50:04 pm
This can't be right. Our trucks should be able to get hitched to our artillery, allowing them to be moved quickly. Our trucks are Expensive for combat purposes but considering what you said about artillery numbers, that should be enough.Arstotzkan artillery is more accurate, but what matters more right now is that Moskurg troops are mobile where Arstotzkan ones are sitting in trenches.QuoteMoskurg can bring the fight to the trenches, but they can't sustain an armored push and artillery marching without armor support is ultimately killed by overwhelming machine gun fire, despite the advantages of accurate artillery. Arstotzka holds the fields
Shouldn't the advantage of accurate artillery be on our side. Moksburg utilizes a Howitzer without any recoil compensation. Our state of the art hydropneumatic systems allows us to fire accurate and twice as fast. Add to that that we have more artillery, and with longer range...
Planes spotting doesn't really work when your artillery can only shoot 4-5 km far, and has to be re-aimed after every shot (which makes walking closer to the target impossible).
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 05:51:07 pm
Post by: Andres on July 30, 2015, 05:52:38 pm
Have you designed the carriages to be towed by trucks? If not, they'd still be horse-drawn.All the truck would need is a peg or a hole in the back, depending on what the artillery has.
Post by: Taricus on July 30, 2015, 06:00:36 pm
Post by: andrea on July 30, 2015, 06:02:30 pm
Post by: Sensei on July 30, 2015, 06:10:40 pm
Horses and footmen go into the mountains. There is a lack of roads which are adequate for wheeled vehicles. If you control the mountains, you can spend a revision project to build a road through.We have trucks, which obsoleted our horses. You still use them.even if we didn't hold the mountains, they wouldn't be able to transport armor and artillery across it. we can barely use machineguns and mortars up there!There are such things as roads you know. The Struunks and motorcycles and SPATs all fight there. How do you think anyone gets supplies if there were no roads for horse carriages?
No Struunks and SPAT in the mountains either.
So far the Arstotzkan HV-19's have only been moving stuff to and from to battlefield. I suppose I don't see a reason why you can't start towing guns around on the battlefield, but they'll still need to be unhitched before firing- it would just be faster than horses. Adding tow hitches to carriages is a simple task that shouldn't need a design or revision action.Have you designed the carriages to be towed by trucks? If not, they'd still be horse-drawn.All the truck would need is a peg or a hole in the back, depending on what the artillery has.
Post by: Parsely on July 30, 2015, 06:13:06 pm
Not the truck, the actual artillery carriages. I doubt you can reliably tow a gun which was designed to be pulled by horses without needing modification..We need special hook-in-loop technology to tow this gun...
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 12:47:11 am
Glorious Arstotzka engineers much into better towing technology. Is like shooting Moskurg in complexity to us.Not the truck, the actual artillery carriages. I doubt you can reliably tow a gun which was designed to be pulled by horses without needing modification..We need special hook-in-loop technology to tow this gun...
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Taricus on July 31, 2015, 01:13:43 am
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 01:16:12 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 02:05:19 am
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Taricus on July 31, 2015, 02:06:37 am
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 02:08:27 am
Are you mad?
Post by: Sensei on July 31, 2015, 03:05:21 am
New Armor Rules
In real life, armor is almost always steel until after world war II. It ranges from 6-25mm on early tanks to around 100mm max, with a greater effective thickness thanks to angling. The stuff normal tanks use is rolled homogenous armor, a type of forged, hardened steel, while you're probably using mild steel so far (something only training versions of tanks are normally made from). Aluminum is lighter, titanium weighs as much as aluminum but is strong like steel, and rubber or cement armor exist as well but are best used as part of a composite. There are a number of alloys to be discovered but I will probably not get into them.
I will establish armor values, which stack from different factors in a way similar to expense. A round striking armor has a penetration value at medium range, with a +1 bonus for close range and a -1 penalty for long range. Armor penetration values will be hidden from you for now. Armor values are as follows:
1) Thin, <10 mm (all measures approximate and used for historical reference)
2) Light, 10-24 mm
3) Medium, 25-50 mm
4) Heavy, 51-100 mm
5) Extra Heavy, 101-150 mm
6) Extreme, more than 150mm. Only historical example I can find is the Maus tank and ironclad ships.
Materials give a bonus to that value. Mild Steel (your current shitty tanks) is -1, RHA is 0. Aluminum is 0 but lighter, Titanium is +1, and composites or more exotic armors may be +1 or higher with various effects on the weight and cost. Good spacing and angling can give a further bonus (which might be wholly or partially negated by APBC rounds or an opponent's good marksmanship).
When building armor, you can specify the thickness and material of the armor in different areas, as well as attempt to research new materials and techniques (you're not getting titanium any time soon though). Right now, extreme armor would be too expensive to build and sink in the mud if you did. Thicker armor also presents an engineering challenge in general; making thick armor is a technology on its own.
I'm of course open to suggestions and will likely revise this rule set. In particular, I don't yet have a hard cost modifier tied to different thickness (I want to consider it with the size of the vehicle to be armored). Keep in mind that 0 armor is still armor and can stop stuff like 9mm pistol rounds.
British Diplomats are Visiting
The British Empire has sent emissaries to both Arstotzka and Moskurg. It seems that their purpose here is to ascertain whether either nation might be of value or a threat to the League of Nations. This includes an assessment of each nation's military. You can send a spy to steal their notes for a revision credit.
1920 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think I updated armored vehicles with the new rules, tell me if I missed anything.
This year Arstotzka made significant refinements to their AS-A19 (the model C now) finally more or less getting it right this time. It's now sturdy, well-armed and kinda maneuverable. Just as importantly, it's not crashing of its own accord like an over-ambitious amateur Unity game. It's also inexpensive. Moskurg launched their first bomber, the Model 2 Hornet, which carries half a ton of bombs and has an M1 Stallion gunner. Arstotzka also designed their first landmine, effective against personnel. Moskurg made some valuable revisions to their T1 smasher, which include better treads and making it out of parts that are less valuable. In fact, it's the first tank to be only Expensive.
Agent Feather Hammer, on a dark night, steps into an Arstotzkan foundry. He is disguised, which means he shaved his mustache. Wearing a jumpsuit, he walks the catwalk above the foundry, watching enormous crucibles of metal pour into casts for tank armor, engine blocks, and generic sheets and rods. Agent Hairy Pickle, also disguised as a worker, pads quietly along the catwalk behind him. Hairy Pickle has killed a Moskurg spy before, and even got a good look at Feather Hammer's face once. Tragically, or triumphantly (it's a matter of perspective) Hairy Pickle recognizes his foe even without his mustache. More than that, he can recognize Feather Hammer for an impostor because all workers were briefed this morning that the observatory catwalk was unsafe and should be avoided until it could be repaired (things like warning signs are not a feature of Arstotzkan industry buildings). A section of catwalk collapses with a crash. Workers shout, panic and point. Agent Hairy Pickle slips out the back door, unseen. Acrid smoke rises from an enormous crucible of molten steel. The Game of Espionage has seen its second casualty.
The war in the air escalates dramatically. The Moskurg airforce is a mix of Model 2 Hornets, with a payload of bombs and a heavy gunner, and Model 1 Biplanes with light machine guns and and radios. The Arstotzkan's have replaced all of their dangerous AS-A19B's with the more maneuverable and reliable AS-A19C- or rather significantly more AS-A19C's. More soldiers in the Arstotzkan army can fly a plane than drive a car. All planes in the air move and turn relatively slowly, which gives the Model 2 Hornet's rotating M1 Stallion a significant advantage. The Model 1 is the most maneuverable plane but by a narrow margin, it often loses fights to an AS-A19C which engages from greater range. A Hornet has a good chance of killing an A19C with its gunner before the A19C, which aims with its entire body and is not much more maneuverable, lines up a deadly shot. However, the AS19C is extremely numerous. Many fights are two or three on one, in favor of Arstotzka. In general, air superiority goes to Arstotzka. Arstotzkan pilot Andrei Zhuyev records five kills.
In the plains, Moskurg makes another push with Hornets and Smashers. The new Smasher can reliably cross a trench, if it gets there, and has better odds simply because there are now far more of them. On more than one occasion, a group of hornets will make it to Arstotzkan trenches. Their effect is devastating and will cause Moskurg to gain ground, but this is not very often. Both Moskurg armor and their air support are killed by a plague of A19C's which fill the skies and strafe their targets, stopping further pushes and regaining ground. Husayn the Lion is killed by strafing. Arstotzka can produce as many AS-T15's as Moskurg can produce T1 Smashers, but Smashers, and Hornets, and Struunks, and sometimes Horsekillers, will defeat them. In fact, the T15 is kind of a death trap. Arstotzkan land mines claim a number of Moskurg legs, the favored Moskurg tactic for disposing of land mines is simply to drive over them with a tank- unsupported infantry has difficulty gaining ground. Land mines also have a tendency to turn short range engagements into long ones, which works in Arstotzka's favor. Thanks mainly to air support, Arstotzka begins to push into the desert. Arstotzkan motorcycles and T15's are extremely vulnerble to Moskurg armor and rely on air support to survive- they mainly end up fighting Moskurg cavalry, who inflict many casualties but are pushed back. (EAST DESERT: Arstotzka 1/4, Moskurg 3/4)
In the mountains, landmines can't be buried, and are easily avoided or disarmed. This does not mean that there are not Moskurg casualties due to landmines- Moskurg soldiers have a bad habit of running without looking down or overestimating their ability to disarm landmines. On average, the Moskurg companies stationed in the mountains become just slightly smarter. Arstotzka generally has air superiority, but their autocannons are relatively ineffective against infantry (who can spread out and take cover) and emplacements- certainly not the game changer that a successful bombing run can be. Infantry remains in a 2/2 stalemate. Moskurg trains are very frequently stopped by Arstotzkan AS-A19C's strafing them. Moskurg will lose that ore if the trains do not receive better protection next turn.
In the jungle, Moskurg momentum cannot be stopped. This is the place furthest from each nation's bases of air operations, so air fights are less common, and the difficulty of seeing the ground makes strafing difficult. Hornet bombing is relatively effective, but this is mostly mitigated by the fact that Hornets have a bad habit of being attacked by three A19C's at once. On occasion, a T1 Smasher will successfully trundle through the jungle roads as well, now that there are more of them with better treads. Arstotzkan forts in the south part of the jungle fall, despite inflicting many Moskurg casualties in the process with their machine guns and autocannons. Moskurg holds the jungle (4/4). They stand at the border of thin evergreen forests with mostly infantry carried by horse, a reduced quantity of armor due to the general difficulty in crossing the jungle, and no air support. If they hold their ground, they will gain the jungle's resources next turn.
The Red Army considers the two tank designs sent to them, based on their ability to intimidate and oppress. The T1 Smasher is more combat-effective, and has a rotating turret to deliver 3.6 inches of oppression in 360 degrees. The AS-T15 is bigger, belches smoke that can be seen for miles, and the inside doubles as a hellish torture chamber. Arstotzka earns one Expense Credit, and T15's are deployed to intimidate Russia's rebelling colonies.
The Unknown Organization considers the five-shooter and the AS-LM20 landmine, putting aside the boxes of shitty or nearly identical weapons that were sent to them, including two identical sawed-off shotguns, a pistol that jams all the time, and two sub-machine guns that are compelling but not quite concealable without a big trench coat. In fact, the five-shooter and land mines are also sort of trench coat weapons (the five shooter being a revolver which fires full-powered rifle rounds, at the risk of breaking a non-Moskurg wrist). In the end, the five-shooter is chosen, because landmines are profoundly unsafe to sneak in one's coat. Moskurg gains an Expense Credit.
In the allied nations, Moskurg files a patent on the Cascade SMG ("Original Gun, Do Not Steal"). It is filed away, its performance overshadowed by that of the new Thomspon M1920 which is gaining military attention.
In other news, some 1000 AS-1910's manufactured in Antegria find their way into the hands of pirates in the Arabian sea, and become associated with high-firepower robbery in the public eye after a series of photo news articles.
You may now design for 1921.
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 03:31:59 am
Post by: Taricus on July 31, 2015, 03:43:41 am
Post by: andrea on July 31, 2015, 03:49:21 am
By the way, you likely ruined a whole batch of metal. So, mission accomplished? :D
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 03:54:38 am
The Arstotzkan's have replaced all of their dangerous AS-A19B's with the more maneuverable and reliable AS-A19C- or rather significantly more AS-A19C's. More soldiers in the Moskurg army can fly a plane than drive a car.I think here it's supposed to say that more soldiers in the Arstotzkan army can fly planes than drive cars.
Post by: Sensei on July 31, 2015, 03:57:57 am
Also, am I reading the turn right, and Arstotzka's only spy has died?I changed "Hairy Pickle slips away" to "Hairy Pickle slips out the back door" to be more clear.
Yep, I'll change that.The Arstotzkan's have replaced all of their dangerous AS-A19B's with the more maneuverable and reliable AS-A19C- or rather significantly more AS-A19C's. More soldiers in the Moskurg army can fly a plane than drive a car.I think here it's supposed to say that more soldiers in the Arstotzkan army can fly planes than drive cars.
Post by: Taricus on July 31, 2015, 04:02:28 am
Also, are we allowed to brown-nose to the observers?
Post by: Sensei on July 31, 2015, 04:07:56 am
Also, are we allowed to brown-nose to the observers?Certainly, although I haven't got a specific reward set aside. On the same note, you could publish something about how the other nation is terrible and would make a poor addition to the League of Nations.
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 04:11:30 am
This is unnecessary. Moskurg already doomed themselves in this regard.Also, are we allowed to brown-nose to the observers?Certainly, although I haven't got a specific reward set aside. On the same note, you could publish something about how the other nation is terrible and would make a poor addition to the League of Nations.
Present the following transcript, actually said by a Moskurgian official, to the British diplomat:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 31, 2015, 05:33:46 am
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 08:50:17 am
Also, I have a few questions re: desert. When do they start loosing ressources from our control of part of their home region? Do we need to fully occupy it to win (4/4), or can we strike at their capital and do so once were at 2/4? I take it their capital is about in the middle?
Post by: Kashyyk on July 31, 2015, 08:58:51 am
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 09:02:11 am
Also, do the expense credits work for one turn, or forever?
Post by: Sensei on July 31, 2015, 01:04:06 pm
Unless I'm mistaken, there's an East, West and Central Desert/TaigaYeah, that's the idea. It makes sense spatially and gives a division between each lane, as well as providing a little more padding before hitting the capitols.
Question: As the Jungle is not described as having a railroad, does that mean one has to be build before the Moksburgians can exploit it's resources, or is that just wishful thinking.Having already established roads, Moskurg can reasonably establish railroads at the same time they're building mines and oil jacks.
Oh, ok, so we do not own one fourth of the Desert, but one fourth of East Desert. I guess each of the desert/taiga region control one of the three base ressources?For now, I'm assuming the resources are concentrated in the capitol. This is just because the resource loss would be really crippling once even one section of desert or taiga is contested. Expense credits work for one turn only.
Also, do the expense credits work for one turn, or forever?
Hehehehe.This is unnecessary. Moskurg already doomed themselves in this regard.Also, are we allowed to brown-nose to the observers?Certainly, although I haven't got a specific reward set aside. On the same note, you could publish something about how the other nation is terrible and would make a poor addition to the League of Nations.
Present the following transcript, actually said by a Moskurgian official, to the British diplomat:Explain that the Moskurgian is just insulting our women and that Arstotzkans don't actually have sex with sheep or any other non-human animal.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 02:15:10 pm
Question: As the Jungle is not described as having a railroad, does that mean one has to be build before the Moksburgians can exploit it's resources, or is that just wishful thinking.Having already established roads, Moskurg can reasonably establish railroads at the same time they're building mines and oil jacks.
Can we dig a bay in the plains? After all, one of the reasons that was given was to compensate the lack of rail link in the jungle. :p
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 31, 2015, 02:17:24 pm
Well, not until we develop nuclear weaponry, anyway.
Post by: Sheb on July 31, 2015, 02:18:56 pm
Post by: andrea on July 31, 2015, 03:31:36 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
tsk. such lowly character, those Moskurgs.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 31, 2015, 03:37:05 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
see you in 30 years, heh
Post by: andrea on July 31, 2015, 03:40:57 pm
of course, after WWII it will be a quite embarassing point to discuss.... but that is, as you said, 30 years in the future :D
Post by: tryrar on July 31, 2015, 03:47:11 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/257HRoT.png)
Fig. 1. The superiority of the Arstotzkan race is self evident from anatomical features. Centuries of coitus wit tigers have left the Moksburger with the typical small cranium and extended jaws of the lower races.
Fig. 1. The superiority of the Arstotzkan race is self evident from anatomical features. Centuries of coitus wit tigers have left the Moksburger with the typical small cranium and extended jaws of the lower races.
Post by: andrea on July 31, 2015, 03:50:12 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sheb, you are hired in the propaganda office!
Post by: Iituem on July 31, 2015, 05:11:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on July 31, 2015, 05:13:09 pm
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 08:02:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: evilcherry on July 31, 2015, 08:16:49 pm
Post by: Andres on July 31, 2015, 10:36:14 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 01, 2015, 12:17:16 am
That being said, is Arstotzka able to explain why they should join the league, or are they just capable of slinging mud only? Whereas Moskurg is generous and welcoming to the ambassadors of the glorious british empire, even offering tigers for the zoological society in london to put in the zoo.
Also, Moskurg would like to state that Arstotzka is also in league with the communists, supplying the soviets with tanks/torture chambers and are very much communists themselves who abhor a free market and liberalism in it's entirety, executing poor engineers for being unable to complete their evil leaders impossible requests.
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 12:40:00 am
He probably only got one extra kill in the last year.He just got a new airplane that was better than his last one in every way except armour and armament. I doubt he only managed to get one kill the entire year he was in the air with it.
Also, Moskurg would like to state that Arstotzka is also in league with the communists, supplying the soviets with tanks/torture chambersThe tank allowed them to scare their rebellious colonies into submission. Moskurg's design was instead so the soviets could slaughter them. Greater atrocities would've occurred if not for Arstotzka.
are very much communists themselves who abhor a free market and liberalism in it's entiretyOne of the reasons Arstotzka wants a greater international presence is to secure trade with other countries, countries like Britain and France.
executing poor engineers for being unable to complete their evil leaders impossible requests.Executing engineers who were proven to have worked with a Moskurg spy to sabotage our air force. The agent who coerced them into working for him - Feather Hammer - was struck down by God just before our own agent could get to him.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Parsely on August 01, 2015, 12:46:08 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 01, 2015, 12:55:19 am
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 01:01:31 am
The general of the Moskurgian army is plagued by lack of sleep, and it's been reported that he has been taking smaller meals. When asked about it, he said: "My dear boy, how can I sleep when those filthy Arstotskans walk the Earth? Even after we commissioned a civilian contractor to paint the windows at my headquarters shut, their stench still makes my eyes water. My brother-in-law owned a manor near the border before he turned it over to our forces to use as a field hospital. He used to tell me tales of his cattle dropping dead during the windy season because they were being suffocated by the odor. That's what this whole war is about, or don't you know? We're going over there to convince them to start rubbing soap under their arms instead of pig shit."Didn't I already make a joke about how Moskurgs stink all the way back in page 2?
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 01:16:31 am
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 01:49:57 am
Post by: tryrar on August 01, 2015, 01:53:39 am
Now that I think about it, our original triplane was really kind of shit, but so is our pistol and its shittiness decreases its cost. Why wasn't our triplane's cost decreased originally?
It's already cheap enough we can produce one for every soldier, what more do you want? :P
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 03:48:50 am
You see, Moskurg could field as many armoured cars, SPATs, and even light tanks as much as it needs with only 1 Ore. (They'd be Expensive but they don't need those vehicles to be cheap.) This seems rather unrealistic to me. They could have the absolute lowest amount of metal they could possibly have and yet they would still manage to crank out tanks without issue. I'll leave it to you to decide how to deal with this issue or if it even is an issue.
Also, it might be time to determine how much Oil Moskurg's train engine needs. Since it's responsible for delivering supplies to its troops and gathering Ore from the Mountains, it's kind of important to know if there's a shortage of them or not.
EDIT: Tell the diplomat that as Arstotzka has developed the most amount of logistical and commercial vehicles (trucks and motorbikes), we'd be better at conducting trade. (Also, I hope you saw my post in the Arstotzka thread about helping out with the pirates.)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2015, 04:00:09 am
Also, propose to the British that both Moksburg and Arstotzka be allowed to join. After all, it is in our interest to let Moksburg shows its suckiness to the world.
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 04:09:51 am
I had an original system in mind where ambitious new technologies would have a Complexity value, of some integer between 1 and 10, which would have to be balanced out by a number of Bugs, which have a Bug Value. So for example, a new automatic gun that's Complexity 3 might be Shoddy (-1), Expensive (-1) and Overheat (-1) to balance out the complexity. As your knowledge and facilities improved you'd get a Complexity Reduction, for example if you have Complexity Reduction 2 you could eliminate two of the bugs on that gun. Instead I've just been having new stuff that's ambitious be either buggy, complex (which directly translates to expense) or both depending on how ambitious it is and a dice roll. Oh yeah, and I wanted to say, even a cheap aircraft has a pilot, a dedicated ground crew of two or three people, and some share in the general logistics staff, so it's not like you can field literally as many airplanes as you can infantry. Of course, an airplane can destroy a lot more materiel than five infantrymen under the right circumstances.Now that I think about it, our original triplane was really kind of shit, but so is our pistol and its shittiness decreases its cost. Why wasn't our triplane's cost decreased originally?It's already cheap enough we can produce one for every soldier, what more do you want? :P
Yeah, but this is a prolonged, elaborate joke about how Moskurgs stink. And also a reference to something I think? At any rate I'm sure there are a lot of Arstotzkans who would like to get a word in about their mortal enemies' bathing habits.The general of the Moskurgian army is plagued by lack of sleep, and it's been reported that he has been taking smaller meals. When asked about it, he said: "My dear boy, how can I sleep when those filthy Arstotskans walk the Earth? Even after we commissioned a civilian contractor to paint the windows at my headquarters shut, their stench still makes my eyes water. My brother-in-law owned a manor near the border before he turned it over to our forces to use as a field hospital. He used to tell me tales of his cattle dropping dead during the windy season because they were being suffocated by the odor. That's what this whole war is about, or don't you know? We're going over there to convince them to start rubbing soap under their arms instead of pig shit."Didn't I already make a joke about how Moskurgs stink all the way back in page 2?
Hey Sensei, I think there's a problem with how you're dealing with resource shortages, namely the bit where a resource shortage needs to be at 3 before another Expense level is tacked on.Resources staying the way they are for now. Assume that a disproportionate amount of resources are produced near the capitol (not entirely illogical) which to be honest is mostly for game balance reasons. I don't want there to be a resource tipping point where it's totally impossible to turn around. Fighting pirates might be an espionage action. I'm still unsure about the meaning of assigned cost to logistics stuff, for now I'm not messing with it.
You see, Moskurg could field as many armoured cars, SPATs, and even light tanks as much as it needs with only 1 Ore. (They'd be Expensive but they don't need those vehicles to be cheap.) This seems rather unrealistic to me. They could have the absolute lowest amount of metal they could possibly have and yet they would still manage to crank out tanks without issue. I'll leave it to you to decide how to deal with this issue or if it even is an issue.
Also, it might be time to determine how much Oil Moskurg's train engine needs. Since it's responsible for delivering supplies to its troops and gathering Ore from the Mountains, it's kind of important to know if there's a shortage of them or not.
EDIT: Tell the diplomat that as Arstotzka has developed the most amount of logistical and commercial vehicles (trucks and motorbikes), we'd be better at conducting trade. (Also, I hope you saw my post in the Arstotzka thread about helping out with the pirates.)
Arstotzka truck drive all the way to London!Blub blub blub. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVPPTV-bQM)
The British Affair
In each capitol city, British diplomats read the news, speak to locals and officials alike, and are given tours of the armed forces by proud generals. They whisper to eachother when confronted with various rumors and accusations regarding the Moskurg fascinations with tigers, they scowl at Arstotzka's apparent irresponsibility with machine guns and tanks. They remark with interest upon Arstotzka's aluminium industry, and Moskurg light machine guns and patented Cascade SMGs. They fail to politely decline a Moskurg gift of snarling caged tigers, and a terrified servant boy pulls their cage around on a cart. Both nations' pawns in the Game are present, perpetually sipping tea and making polite conversation. Agent Hairy Pickle is disguised as a Moskurger ("Well, I do think our opponents deserve some credit, you know...") and quietly arranges a lock on the tiger cage to fail at an inconvenient time. Agent Tiger Fucker (he doesn't call himself that in polite company) successfully identifies his enemy and, expecting the release of the tigers, wisely stands out of the way. When the cage releases, the tigers run into an alley and both agents give chase, hoping to be the tiger-capturing hero and earn the diplomat's ear (and ensure the other agent is mauled in the process). They're in the middle of a four-way stabbing match with the pair of tigers when the British party arrives in the alley and both agents are forced to stop trying to kill each other in the interest of appearances, and simply capture the tigers. They are left glaring at each other over tea and Hairy Pickle makes an excuse to leave while Tiger Fucker is obliged to hold the tiger cage closed for a locksmith. Neither agent succeeds in killing the other and the diplomats are left with mixed impressions of both nations.
1921 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I have now hit the 40,000 character limit for a forum post. Oh dear. Guess I'll have to split it up.
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 04:10:12 am
Arstozka produced one and a half new vehicles. The AS-MV21-AL is an armored car built wholly from aluminium. It has light and medium armor, impressive speed, great all-terrain performance and the gunner gets a deadly AS-AC18 autocannon. They revised their motorcycle, now the AS-M17A, to stop being an unsafe pile of junk and also include a mount capable of aiming its AS-1910 machine gun at aircraft. Moskurg designed a new logistics vehicle (their logistics capacity is now 5), the LV-1 tiger, which is functionally pretty similar to the Arstotzkan logistics truck. They also revised their machine guns, emplaced and vehicle-mounted, with pintle mounts to better aim at aircraft.
In the air, Model 2 Hornets and AS-A19C's are now equally common. Both craft being slow turners, the Model 2's M1 Stallion gunner gives it an advantage. Both craft have powerful weapons with a long effective range. Model 1 Biplanes are less common in dogfights, but tend to be defeated by AS-A19C pilots who can successfully engage from afar. Arstotzkan craft are also threatened by ground fire now, particularly the mobile Struunk I's and M1 Stallion emplacements. The AS-1910 ground fire is also very capable of damaging Moskurg's wood-framed aircraft, but has less range. In general Moskurg has an air advantage, but many battles are close contests. Ground-to-air fire causes a significant number of casualties, while not a majority, and sometimes are fights are swung by events on the ground below.
In the Jungle/Snow border, Arstotzka assaults with their new AS-MV21-AL, an armored car with a gun currently capable of threatening infantry and armor alike. These vehicles are also supported by the capable AS-M17 bikes. These can outmaneuver T1 Smashers and Struunk I's, especially in snowy weather. The belt-fed variation of the AS-AC18 does necessitate pauses in fire to avoid overheating when used on the ground, but good gunners still prefer this to loading magazines. Less good gunners damage their AS-AC18. Also, Arstotzka has exclusive air support in the taiga. The fight is quickly taken back in to the jungle. The AS-MV21-AL sees some losses here, in the form of gunners picked off by Moskurg rifles mostly. If the vehicle is forced to stop, Horsekiller rifles can penetrate its armor at close range, or easily put a round through the grill on the back (if a Moskurg soldier can get behind it). In general, the AS-MV21 is more effective as anti-armor on the tight roads (from the front it takes a cannon to kill) because of the AS-AC18's lack of ammo compared to a smaller gun. Motorcycle shock troops take center stage here, parking and shooting their machine guns or dismounting with AS-MC17 SMGs. An SMG-armed squad backed up with one or two AS-F14 marksmen can make quick work of even fierce Moskurg troops in tight quarters and forts, and superior armor means that they can usually get close. In some fights, SMG squads are prone to being pinned down by a Brumby from further than they can shoot accurately. Arstotzka gains a chunk of jungle (1/4), preventing Moskurg from successfully exploiting the jungle's resources.
In the mountains, Moskurg deploys their new improvised AA Stallions to protect their mines and trains. These are somewhat effective, they rely on the fact that AS-A19C's need to fly close to make strafing runs. This combined with the much improved air performance means that Moskurg trains remain effective for logistics here.
In the eastern desert, Arstotzka launches a new light armored offensive. Despite being less effective in sand than other terrain the AS-MV21-AL and new motorcycles can outmaneuver and generally outperform Moskurg vehicles. Struunks can get a kill on Arstotzkan armored cars from close range, but don't often make it to close range at all. High speed gas-burning warfare reigns in the desert now, and Arstotzka is winning. This is tempered significantly by the improved Moskurg air support. Model 2 Hornets are now more likely to make it over Arstotzkan convoys and deliver their payload, and Arstotzkan AS-A19C's can no longer strafe with impunity due to better air cover and some ground-to-air fire. Sometimes Arstotzkan armored groups are bombed to smithereens while standing still at night, despite desperate last-moment attempts from motorcycle gunners to stop Model 2's (not that their guns are ineffective, but hitting airplanes at night is extremely difficult). Moskurg holds their ground, but might not for another year like this.
An American company is looking for a weapon suitable for civilian big game hunting in South America and Africa. Must be powerful, man-portable, accurate and have the option for single or semiautomatic fire. They are offering one Expense Credit. See what I did there? I got you all hooked on expense credits, and now only one of you gets one.
An Experimental Allied U-Boat has sunk near Forenia, as an espionage action you might attempt to investigate it for a Design Credit. Sharks are a hazard. Having a domestically made watercraft will grant a bonus.
You may now begin designing for 1922.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 04:17:12 am
Quote
hitting airplanes at night is extremely difficult).
And flying at night isn't?
Anyway, great performance, but that damn Agent is still alive.
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 04:18:48 am
EDIT: Ah, different post entirely. My bad.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 04:21:02 am
What happened with the diplomats? The espionage? The country lists?The post was split in two parts.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2015, 04:28:46 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 04:29:41 am
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 04:55:08 am
It's easier, especially if the ground targets have lights/fires and only oust them when they hear you coming, or not at all. Night bombing was a very effective tactic in this period historically.Quotehitting airplanes at night is extremely difficult).
And flying at night isn't?
Anyway, great performance, but that damn Agent is still alive.
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 06:05:03 am
:P
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Offer to build an embassy for the British Empire. Considering we have 3 Ore, I think we can make the embassy quite...uh, very....what's the phrase.... Aha! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcYrTCGKyrU&feature=youtu.be&t=269)
(Obviously that Custodes is in support of Arstotzka since he likes glorious things.)
Post by: evilcherry on August 01, 2015, 07:58:23 am
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 07:59:33 am
Rant. How AS filth get consistently better rolls than MS? Or should MS use revision phases to convert armored cars into trucks instead... I mean, is there a way that the game is supposed to be played?
Dark sacrifice to RNG.
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 08:02:33 am
I believe the Moskurgs made some shrines to the Random Number Gods specifically so they could desecrate them for their support of glorious Arstotzka.Rant. How AS filth get consistently better rolls than MS? Or should MS use revision phases to convert armored cars into trucks instead... I mean, is there a way that the game is supposed to be played?
Dark sacrifice to RNG.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2015, 08:14:42 am
In other news, Arstotzka would like to offer its AS-F14 to the hunting supplies company, pointing out it's the only semi-automatic rifle in Forenia and that it'll go through an elephant skull like a Moksburger through a tiger's behind.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 01, 2015, 08:18:51 am
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 08:24:39 am
In other news, Arstotzka would like to offer its AS-F14 to the hunting supplies company, pointing out it's the only semi-automatic rifle in Forenia and that it'll go through an elephant skull like a Moksburger through a tiger's behind.Offer our special AP rounds with the F14 for the tougher animals. Also, the Horsekiller has too much of a kick to be usable by anyone but a Moskurgan. It's unsuitable for sport.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2015, 08:27:18 am
Post by: Taricus on August 01, 2015, 08:28:20 am
And it doesn't need to be semi-auto, you hit and kill the target in a single shot.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2015, 08:33:57 am
Quote
Must be powerful, man-portable, accurate and have the option for single or semiautomatic fire
I guess I shouldn't be too mad, it must be hard to learn to read with such a small, Moksburger brain.
Post by: Taricus on August 01, 2015, 09:09:03 am
Post by: Parsely on August 01, 2015, 01:11:22 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 01:39:05 pm
Chart will be here shortly.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 01:42:23 pm
New Armor Rules
In real life, armor is almost always steel until after world war II. It ranges from 6-25mm on early tanks to around 100mm max, with a greater effective thickness thanks to angling. The stuff normal tanks use is rolled homogenous armor, a type of forged, hardened steel, while you're probably using mild steel so far (something only training versions of tanks are normally made from). Aluminum is lighter, titanium weighs as much as aluminum but is strong like steel, and rubber or cement armor exist as well but are best used as part of a composite. There are a number of alloys to be discovered but I will probably not get into them.
I will establish armor values, which stack from different factors in a way similar to expense. A round striking armor has a penetration value at medium range, with a +1 bonus for close range and a -1 penalty for long range. Armor penetration values will be hidden from you for now. Armor values are as follows:
1) Thin, <10 mm (all measures approximate and used for historical reference)
2) Light, 10-24 mm
3) Medium, 25-50 mm
4) Heavy, 51-100 mm
5) Extra Heavy, 101-150 mm
6) Extreme, more than 150mm. Only historical example I can find is the Maus tank and ironclad ships.
Materials give a bonus to that value. Mild Steel (your current shitty tanks) is -1, RHA is 0. Aluminum is 0 but lighter, Titanium is +1, and composites or more exotic armors may be +1 or higher with various effects on the weight and cost. Good spacing and angling can give a further bonus (which might be wholly or partially negated by APBC rounds or an opponent's good marksmanship).
When building armor, you can specify the thickness and material of the armor in different areas, as well as attempt to research new materials and techniques (you're not getting titanium any time soon though). Right now, extreme armor would be too expensive to build and sink in the mud if you did. Thicker armor also presents an engineering challenge in general; making thick armor is a technology on its own.
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 01:44:20 pm
Aluminum armor couldn't possibly outperform our steel, despite it's low grade, unless this armored car has like 30+mms of it, which would make it prohibitively heavy for a four-wheeled vehicle. Aluminum shouldn't be able to stop HMG and autocannon fire.In terms of comparative armor performance, remember you are firing lead bullets while Arstotzka is using hardened steel when they encounter armor.
Post by: Parsely on August 01, 2015, 03:13:17 pm
Post by: andrea on August 01, 2015, 03:58:49 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 04:15:49 pm
by the way. When you say that an Allied U-boat sank, who are those allies? the nations that would be called so during WWII? or is something else happening in global politics right now?*rolls dice* US Navy.
Post by: Parsely on August 01, 2015, 04:18:58 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 05:00:44 pm
Spoiler: The Only True News (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 05:14:16 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 05:16:42 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 05:21:26 pm
And what was that article about 'deciding to withdraw' on the western fronts a few issues of the Arstotzkan War Bulletin ago, hmm? ;DThe wall of Moskurg corpses lining the Desert and now the Jungle has determined that article was telling the truth.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 05:21:46 pm
And what was that article about 'deciding to withdraw' on the western fronts a few issues of the Arstotzkan War Bulletin ago, hmm? ;DThat was a creative interpretation of the truth.
This is simply made up. Arztotska developed the cargo truck 2 years ago. Claim you refined it, fine (though we all know you didn't).
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 05:25:58 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 05:29:04 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 05:34:56 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 05:42:45 pm
A fair point. Moskurg counter-sues for theft of the sawn-off-shotgun design. Lawyers are primed and fired to keep the cases mired in red tape for decades to come.Military theft is different. You can't sue us for "stealing" "your" design because it was a military theft. You put a patent on our design and that is not allowed.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 01, 2015, 05:44:04 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 01, 2015, 06:41:28 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 01, 2015, 08:00:48 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 01, 2015, 08:02:26 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 08:13:18 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 08:43:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 09:39:48 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 10:28:01 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 10:38:59 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 01, 2015, 10:43:14 pm
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 10:44:59 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2015, 02:57:53 am
Quote from: OP
In fact, Arstotzka and Moskurg have been at war to conquer the entire continent as long as anyone can remember, and as far back as any history book is written. The reasons for this are much debated, but the debates universally end in fisticuffs.I see it holds true to this day.
1922 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This year, Moskurg designed their first recoilless rifle, the Rhino, an early sort of the weapon which uses a wad fired out of the back of the rifle to balance recoil from the shell. They also improved their T1 Smashers with spaced armor. Arstotzka created a sort of merchant marine ship, the AS-CV22, which is mainly a logistics vehicle but includes an autocannon for defense against air assault. Next year, this means Arstotzka will have 4 ore and 2 oil.
The war in the air generally returns to Arstotzka's favor, their airplanes are more plentiful again. The AS-A19C is also now often fitted with incendiary rounds, which are especially effective against wooden airplanes, as if it needed more firepower. The threat to airplanes from ground fire has improved considerably. Arstotzka's new flak is effective in daylight, especially against Moskurg's slow and low-flying bombers. At night, flares can illuminate bombers briefly, but only in time to aim machine guns. However, Moskurg deploys less Model 2 Hornets this year, so the threat from bombing is reduced altogether.
In the desert, the Arstotzkan armored advance meets new T1 Smashers. New spaced armor reduces the likelihood of a killing blow with the AS-AC18 autocannon, requiring AS-MV21's to get closer or take a careful aimed shot. 7.62mm AP is relatively ineffective against T1 Smashers now, although if a motorcycle is allowed to right up to one they can still get an easy kill. Smashers get more kills against AS-MV21's which are hit by the Bombardier cannon, but this is still uncommon due to its lower accuracy, rate of fire and turning rate. Moskurg bombing runs continue to be effective, but happen less frequently as more of their planes are shot down. The new Rhino recoilless rifle sees use here, Moskurg cavalry troops ride around with it and dismount to fire. In the desert, they take the risk of needing a clear line of sight, well within the effective range of Arstotzkan autocannons. Because they take time to reload, Rhino users generally only get one shot. These soldiers are also not armed with rifles, so are very vulnerable to infantry and motorcycles. Moskurg inflicts many casualties, but Arstotzka manages to keep gaining ground. (Arstotzk 2/4, Moskurg 2/4)
In the mountains, infantry fighting picks up. Arstotzkan soldiers have developed a new tactic: At night, mortars are used to launch flares over Moskurg encampments. Arstotzkan sharpshooters pick off the illuminated enemy soldiers from cover in the darkness. Moskurg soldiers use their recoilless rifles to attack hardened Arstotzkan positions. Both sides become less entrenched, and the M2 Brumby shines again. Without the benefit (usually) of using AS-1910's to suppress charges, Moskurg gains ground. (Moskurg 3/4) Trains shipping to the mountains once again are threatened, but narrowly hold out by virtue of including a couple machine gun cars.
In the jungle, Arstotzka continues their assault with infantry support by armor on roads. Arstotzka no longer has cheap SMG's, but does benefit from their new mortar shells (incendiary rounds are useful against jungle positions). Moskurg (swallowing their ego) makes use of ambush tactics, setting up Rhino recoilless rifles in bushes and blasting advancing AS-MV21's. Despite being dependant on sidearms, Moskurg retains an advantage in close combat, so where they are not successfully suppressed with autocannons or machine guns, they hold fast. Moskurg holds their ground. (Moskurg 3/4, Arstotzka 1/4)
Out in the pacific ocean, both countries have sent spies to examine what I will continue to call a U-boat. The US Navy is protective of their secrets. Each agent successfully retrieves valuable film from the submarine, but are boarded by US Navy cruisers patrolling the area. Tiger Fucker and Hairy Pickle are both captured with the incriminating film. Do not expect to hear from them again.
In the Arstotzkan foundry district, Agent Sandworm climbs a building, jumps a gap across an alley and rappels through a skylight window. Alarms sound, but when guards arrive all they find is broken glass and a missing folder on Aluminium refining.
The American hunting company considers two rifles submitted to them, the Horsekiller and the AS-F14. Both guns are a bit inaccurate, the AS-F14 with its open bolt action and the Horsekiller with being the Horsekiller. At the risk of some damaged collarbones, they choose the Horsekiller and its enormous .60 caliber round. It's not actually as ideal for hunting as a more accurate rifle, but the weapon acquires a reputation for being the manliest rifle a civilian can buy. Moskurg gains an Expense Credit.
In the capitol of Arstotzka and the capitol of Moskurg alike, there are a series of fires. Days later secret police uncover a series of fliers, with slogans like "The War is Futile", "The War is a Tool of Your Oppressors", "Do not volunteer. Do not allow yourself to be conscripted. Do not die for your oppressors' benefit." and so on. It seems there is a bit of a rebel problem.
You may now begin the 1923 design phase.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 03:30:37 am
Edit : Nevermind, I see I never explicitedly voted on that.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 03:55:07 am
Quote
New spaced armor reduces the likelihood of a killing blow with the AS-AC18 autocannon, requiring AS-MV21's to get closer or take a careful aimed shot.
The autocannon is an autocannon. Surely, with it's 600 round per minute firerate, it would simply chew through the spaced armor halfway through the first burst, reducing it's consistency and effectiveness to Swiss cheese?
Not complaining, merely trying to understand why the spaced armor works, so that a countermeasure can be developed. Because as far as I understand it, a sacrificial armor plate (which is what the spaced armor is) should be highly vulnerable to anything with fast firing weaponry.
Quote
In the desert, they take the risk of needing a clear line of sight, well within the effective range of Arstotzkan autocannons. Because they take time to reload, Rhino users generally only get one shot.
I'm pretty sure the Rhino is designed as a single use weapon.
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2015, 03:58:16 am
Post by: tryrar on August 02, 2015, 04:12:19 am
Well, "reload" in this case means put a new 20-pound tube on a tripod. A horseman might carry a couple.
Yeah, "replace" might be the better verb to use :P
Post by: Andres on August 02, 2015, 04:37:34 am
Post by: QuakeIV on August 02, 2015, 04:38:38 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 04:47:32 am
Post by: Happerry on August 02, 2015, 04:48:04 am
1910 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6391542#msg6391542)
1911 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6392757#msg6392757)
1912 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6393888#msg6393888)
1913 Battle Phase (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6396473#msg6396473)
1914 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6397622#msg6397622)
1915 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6398772#msg6398772)
1916 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6401306#msg6401306)
1917 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6404255#msg6404255)
1918 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6405886#msg6405886)
1919 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6409285#msg6409285)
1920 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6411846#msg6411846)
1921 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6413978#msg6413978)
1922 Battle Report (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6416161#msg6416161)
Post by: Andres on August 02, 2015, 04:55:09 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 05:01:53 am
Post by: Happerry on August 02, 2015, 05:05:38 am
Apparently not.We have cars carrying anti air machine guns, which kill your puny fighters.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 02, 2015, 05:08:01 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 05:09:24 am
And a massive train, loaded with ore, coming down the mountain at full speed, is not easy to stop.
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2015, 05:18:56 am
We're firing at the railroads. You don't have enough cars nor planes to save those entirely.Your 20mm rounds are ineffective at destroying rails, because they cannot accurately hit a railroad track. Sure, you might ruin some sections of rail but nothing a maintenance crew can't replace in a few hours' work. It'll take bombs or artillery, or infantry, be that reliable at cutting off rail access.
And a massive train, loaded with ore, coming down the mountain at full speed, is not easy to stop.
Post by: Andres on August 02, 2015, 05:20:01 am
WWI pilots used to literally throw mortar and artillery shells out of the cockpit for bombing runs. Couldn't our guys do the exact same thing?We're firing at the railroads. You don't have enough cars nor planes to save those entirely.Your 20mm rounds are ineffective at destroying rails, because they cannot accurately hit a railroad track. Sure, you might ruin some sections of rail but nothing a maintenance crew can't replace in a few hours' work. It'll take bombs or artillery, or infantry, be that reliable at cutting off rail access.
And a massive train, loaded with ore, coming down the mountain at full speed, is not easy to stop.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 05:24:07 am
We're firing at the railroads. You don't have enough cars nor planes to save those entirely.Your 20mm rounds are ineffective at destroying rails, because they cannot accurately hit a railroad track. Sure, you might ruin some sections of rail but nothing a maintenance crew can't replace in a few hours' work. It'll take bombs or artillery, or infantry, be that reliable at cutting off rail access.
And a massive train, loaded with ore, coming down the mountain at full speed, is not easy to stop.
The idea is that rather than attacking a train head on, you damage the rails in front of it. Since you're outside the effective range of his anti-air, he can't do anything to stop it.
Meanwhile, a fully loaded train can take several kilometers to stop (going to be worse in the mountains) so it will drive over the ruined track, derail and destroy the entire railroad.
Post by: Taricus on August 02, 2015, 05:34:18 am
Though in regards to the bombing of railways, I thought we did that last turn, or did that just not go through?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 05:35:45 am
Post by: Taricus on August 02, 2015, 05:36:14 am
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2015, 05:42:16 am
Post by: Andres on August 02, 2015, 06:29:35 am
serious barnstorming skills.Arstotzka has much better barnstorming kills than Moskurg! We have mortars so we can use our incendiary rounds to light the barn on fire much more quickly than Moskurg's artillery can. Once the people inside have been smoked out, our wide variety of small arms allows us to shoot at the survivors no matter what range they're at when they come out. Since our uniforms don't come with capes, our uniforms are much less likely to catch on fire if we decide to storm the barn while it's still on fire.
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 02, 2015, 07:35:45 am
is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_recoilless_rifle with a different name? Numbers and description make me think so.
Edit: oh, no, not a clone, Rhino is 2 times lighter while having the same size
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 07:39:00 am
Post by: Iituem on August 02, 2015, 07:42:42 am
So, I went to Moskurg thread to see why their recoilless rifle is so kick ass and...
is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_recoilless_rifle with a different name? Numbers and description make me think so.
Edit: oh, no, not a clone, Rhino is 2 times lighter while having the same size
I think you'll find we're in excellent company along with the PRC, then.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 08:03:17 am
Besides, your weapon shouldn't be effective against our APC's and such anyway. It fires pure HE shells at low velocity. Those can't penetrate the frontal armor.
Post by: Iituem on August 02, 2015, 08:06:27 am
It's completely silly though. You simply don't have the explosives, the material, the aerodynamic experience to make it work.
Sure we do. That's what we spent our Design phase learning instead of how to make steam ships. Looks like we're not leading the transport industry of tomorrow any more!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 08:14:36 am
Also, I'm not normally to complain about metagaming, but this is a bit much.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
FighterAlmost exactly the same design, with features listed in pretty much the same order.
Post by: Taricus on August 02, 2015, 08:24:31 am
Post by: Powder Miner on August 02, 2015, 08:38:44 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 02, 2015, 08:47:44 am
I thought we weren't supposed to read each others' threads in the first place.Metagaming is indeed frowned of, but I suppose its always legal to peek into them as long as you are not reacting on their designs this turn.
Post by: Sensei on August 02, 2015, 02:38:00 pm
I'll be out most of the day today so don't expect real updates until the wee hours of the morning, I'll be on mobile sometimes though.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 02, 2015, 04:04:02 pm
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2015, 06:57:59 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 02, 2015, 07:00:26 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 02, 2015, 08:04:12 pm
Spoiler: Cowards preaching anti-war, read all about it! (click to show/hide)
Post by: heydude6 on August 02, 2015, 08:13:15 pm
*sheds tear*Spoiler: Cowards preaching anti-war, read all about it! (click to show/hide)
That was beautiful.
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 02:38:27 am
-Extra spies should probably not work the way they do, where you have one spy who gets replaced and one who doesn't. Instead maybe spies should only be replaced up to the number of intelligence buildings you have. This would be kind of unfair to Arstotzka if they got a second spy and couldn't use the same tactics Moskurg used before.
-Rhino Recoilless Rifle probably a little OP/anachronistic in terms of weight and performance. Maybe should be less portable or short range only, or both. Obviously this would be snubbing Moskurg retroactively though. This is the first piece of equipment I've submitted and really had second thoughts about, so I'd like to also establish a policy for when I make a mistake in the future and give somebody a rocket launcher that shouldn't be easy to engineer for another 30 years.
-Possibly related to the above, is how should I set difficulty for equipment which COULD be really valuable, and from an engineering standpoint can easily be built/has been built, but historically wasn't used until later for the main reason that people didn't realize it would be valuable? Assault rifles and their medium-powered rounds are good example of this. Shaped explosive charges might be also, I'm still not clear on the challenges involved in delivering shaped explosives accurately in a warhead. And don't say "just base it on how hard it would be to build" unless you're planning to alter history/conquer Europe.
-I'm considering using less randomness overall. I've increased the importance of dice rolls compared to my original plan, which was to roll a die for each new technology and have a bad roll not get the technology or have a bug associated with the technology, and then have performance of equipment based on the technologies involved and the year created mainly. As it is I've been using dice to determine general efficiency/useability when I'm not sure, but this has had some questionable results (EG Moskurg and Arstotzka submit similar plane designs, Moskurg's is good and Arstotza's suffers from control and weight issues). In that example the triplane frame was an exacerbating factor but it remains that basically players took the same actions in the same year to different results. I'm considering using less dice rolls and having bad dice rolls be explicitly tied to discrete technologies so it's clear how to solve/avoid bugs in the future. I'd like your opinions before making changes in this department though.
-I'm also considering what to do when I realize that equipment should be useful in a way I haven't thought of after the fact, which seems too trivial to require a revision. Examples include towing artillery by truck (though not extremely useful) or machine guns on top of trains (somewhat useful). Another example is Arstotzkans performing strafing runs on rail tracks themselves (though I stand by my position on that not being valuable, but suppose I said it was). Should I keep a list of tactics used and not used for reference? Is it OK for a piece of equipment to suddenly become more effective than it was before because a player pointed out a more effective way to use it? Should I apply these retroactively, or characterize them as new orders given to soldiers? Should Moskurg get their alternate rounds in .60 caliber even though they said they wanted to make them for artillery? Should I automatically add what I think are very easy improvements like that in general/on good rolls?
-(Edited to add) Also, what about really small revisions? Stuff like Arstotzka getting the stupid flags taken off of soldiers' helmets. There are some things that seem to big to not do during a revision phase but also really small for a revision phase. Should I allow more rapid-fire revision, like I have with ammo types? Should I give something like a 1/2 Revision Credit rebate?
-(Also Edited to add) Right now, if you have 2 ore and 2 oil, a vehicle costing 3 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive due to having two different expense sources, but one costing 4 ore and 2 oil is just expensive. Should I change this so that expense is based on TOTAL resources required that you don't have? EG, 3 ore and 3 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 2 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive, 5 ore and 2 oil is Very Expensive. This seems like it would make sense. I'm not sure if it will affect any designs currently in place but people have certainly been taking the old system into account for new designs.
So, yeah, I'd like your opinions on this stuff, whether I should implement these changes at all, and if the parties injured by balance changes should be compensated in some way.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 02:55:42 am
Post by: Happerry on August 03, 2015, 03:11:29 am
I am considering a few balance issues, but I've put off actually changing them because they might appear to snub one nation or the other:Well, my big question for this would be 'can we spend a design turn designing better intelligence stuff to get more spies?' Though in general this sounds good to me.
-Extra spies should probably not work the way they do, where you have one spy who gets replaced and one who doesn't. Instead maybe spies should only be replaced up to the number of intelligence buildings you have. This would be kind of unfair to Arstotzka if they got a second spy and couldn't use the same tactics Moskurg used before.
-Rhino Recoilless Rifle probably a little OP/anachronistic in terms of weight and performance. Maybe should be less portable or short range only, or both. Obviously this would be snubbing Moskurg retroactively though. This is the first piece of equipment I've submitted and really had second thoughts about, so I'd like to also establish a policy for when I make a mistake in the future and give somebody a rocket launcher that shouldn't be easy to engineer for another 30 years.Personally, this sounds like a subject that's going to need a lot of judgement and few defined rules. We're not doing the same wars they did in Europe, we shouldn't be forced to follow their exact same path of technological and social advancement when our combat conditions are different. We started actual armor operations a lot earlier then they did, we never did Infantry and Cruiser tanks as separate things, and so on. If someone is being ran over by tanks, they're going to go look for anti tank weapons even if Europe didn't go looking for them until later, and if the things are possible to make then they're probably going to make them because no one enjoys being ran over by tanks.
-Possibly related to the above, is how should I set difficulty for equipment which COULD be really valuable, and from an engineering standpoint can easily be built/has been built, but historically wasn't used until later for the main reason that people didn't realize it would be valuable? Assault rifles and their medium-powered rounds are good example of this. Shaped explosive charges might be also, I'm still not clear on the challenges involved in delivering shaped explosives accurately in a warhead. And don't say "just base it on how hard it would be to build" unless you're planning to alter history/conquer Europe.
-I'm considering using less randomness overall. I've increased the importance of dice rolls compared to my original plan, which was to roll a die for each new technology and have a bad roll not get the technology or have a bug associated with the technology, and then have performance of equipment based on the technologies involved and the year created mainly. As it is I've been using dice to determine general efficiency/useability when I'm not sure, but this has had some questionable results (EG Moskurg and Arstotzka submit similar plane designs, Moskurg's is good and Arstotza's suffers from control and weight issues). In that example the triplane frame was an exacerbating factor but it remains that basically players took the same actions in the same year to different results. I'm considering using less dice rolls and having bad dice rolls be explicitly tied to discrete technologies so it's clear how to solve/avoid bugs in the future. I'd like your opinions before making changes in this department though.Personally, I think that while some less randomness might be a good thing, having a random factor is actually pretty realistic. Just because the tech is there doesn't mean people know how to use it, and we're a long way away from computer years of testing time to find all the hidden bugs. People are going to try things out, and sometimes those things are going to fail even if the technology to make them not fail was there because people were trying something new an innovative that just didn't pan out, or the person in charge didn't know the science, or just plain old bad luck. Sometimes, even if the nation knows how to make planes, someone messes up and designs a plane that has a critical weakness no one notices until the thing is actually being flown. Sometimes a tank is designed and no one notices it's really bad for combat until it's in combat because the errors only really show up when people are shooting at you, because when no one is shooting at you everyone is a lot more relaxed and aren't going to mix up the two big red buttons.
And so on.
Probably better to keep track, in a general fashion, of how much experience a nation has with doing whatever, and the more experience the more likely they are to catch major bugs before the design is finished or not put the bugs in in the first place. But even today, in the modern world, people mess up designing and building stuff and no once notices until the thing is actually in production.
-I'm also considering what to do when I realize that equipment should be useful in a way I haven't thought of after the fact, which seems too trivial to require a revision. Examples include towing artillery by truck (though not extremely useful) or machine guns on top of trains (somewhat useful). Another example is Arstotzkans performing strafing runs on rail tracks themselves (though I stand by my position on that not being valuable, but suppose I said it was). Should I keep a list of tactics used and not used for reference? Is it OK for a piece of equipment to suddenly become more effective than it was before because a player pointed out a more effective way to use it? Should I apply these retroactively, or characterize them as new orders given to soldiers? Should Moskurg get their alternate rounds in .60 caliber even though they said they wanted to make them for artillery? Should I automatically add what I think are very easy improvements like that in general/on good rolls?Personally I'd call these new orders given to soldiers or people in the field figuring out new tricks out of a firm desire to not die. And even as a Moskurger, I don't see why inventing new Artillery shells also means new bullets, those sound like different projects to me.
-(Edited to add) Also, what about really small revisions? Stuff like Arstotzka getting the stupid flags taken off of soldiers' helmets. There are some things that seem to big to not do during a revision phase but also really small for a revision phase. Should I allow more rapid-fire revision, like I have with ammo types? Should I give something like a 1/2 Revision Credit rebate?Maybe let people do a minor revision for that kind of small stuff every revision phase? I dunno.
-(Also Edited to add) Right now, if you have 2 ore and 2 oil, a vehicle costing 3 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive due to having two different expense sources, but one costing 4 ore and 2 oil is just expensive. Should I change this so that expense is based on TOTAL resources required that you don't have? EG, 3 ore and 3 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 2 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive, 5 ore and 2 oil is Very Expensive. This seems like it would make sense. I'm not sure if it will affect any designs currently in place but people have certainly been taking the old system into account for new designs.Personally this sounds more realistic then the old system to me.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 03:11:59 am
-Extra spies should probably not work the way they do, where you have one spy who gets replaced and one who doesn't. Instead maybe spies should only be replaced up to the number of intelligence buildings you have. This would be kind of unfair to Arstotzka if they got a second spy and couldn't use the same tactics Moskurg used before.Simple. When we next get an extra spy, keep him outside the spy/building system you plan to implement. Besides that one spy, make sure all spies fall under the system.
-Rhino Recoilless Rifle probably a little OP/anachronistic in terms of weight and performance. Maybe should be less portable or short range only, or both. Obviously this would be snubbing Moskurg retroactively though. This is the first piece of equipment I've submitted and really had second thoughts about, so I'd like to also establish a policy for when I make a mistake in the future and give somebody a rocket launcher that shouldn't be easy to engineer for another 30 years.You could give Arstotzka an OP weapon to balance it out if you want. We wouldn't mind.
-Possibly related to the above, is how should I set difficulty for equipment which COULD be really valuable, and from an engineering standpoint can easily be built/has been built, but historically wasn't used until later for the main reason that people didn't realize it would be valuable? Assault rifles and their medium-powered rounds are good example of this. Shaped explosive charges might be also, I'm still not clear on the challenges involved in delivering shaped explosives accurately in a warhead. And don't say "just base it on how hard it would be to build" unless you're planning to alter history/conquer Europe.Just base it on how hard it would be to build. For the record, I'm planning to alter history/conquer Europe. ;)
In all seriousness, implementing that kind of system would be difficult to manage. It'll basically be "No, you can't do that cool thing because your character wouldn't have thought of it!" It's not fun.
-I'm considering using less randomness overall. I've increased the importance of dice rolls compared to my original plan, which was to roll a die for each new technology and have a bad roll not get the technology or have a bug associated with the technology, and then have performance of equipment based on the technologies involved and the year created mainly. As it is I've been using dice to determine general efficiency/useability when I'm not sure, but this has had some questionable results (EG Moskurg and Arstotzka submit similar plane designs, Moskurg's is good and Arstotza's suffers from control and weight issues). In that example the triplane frame was an exacerbating factor but it remains that basically players took the same actions in the same year to different results. I'm considering using less dice rolls and having bad dice rolls be explicitly tied to discrete technologies so it's clear how to solve/avoid bugs in the future. I'd like your opinions before making changes in this department though.I have a suggestion. Let's say you're using 1d6. To design something, you roll that die. If, however, the country in question has researched technology related to the design or has previous experience with similar things, you start taking numbers off from the bottom. First you remove the 1, leaving the possibilities as 2 to 6. Then take the 2, leaving you with 3 to 6, etcetera. This makes experience and technology useful while preventing the creation of wanderwaffes by having exp/tech be modifiers and adding to a natural 6.
Is it OK for a piece of equipment to suddenly become more effective than it was before because a player pointed out a more effective way to use it?Yes, definitely.
Should I apply these retroactively, or characterize them as new orders given to soldiers?New orders given to soldiers.
Should Moskurg get their alternate rounds in .60 caliber even though they said they wanted to make them for artillery?If you switch what you gave them (removing what they currently have) and the thing they're switching to is worse, then yes. Otherwise no. Glory to Arstotzka.
Should I automatically add what I think are very easy improvements like that in general/on good rolls?Yes.
-(Edited to add) Also, what about really small revisions? Stuff like Arstotzka getting the stupid flags taken off of soldiers' helmets. There are some things that seem to big to not do during a revision phase but also really small for a revision phase. Should I allow more rapid-fire revision, like I have with ammo types? Should I give something like a 1/2 Revision Credit rebate?
-(Also Edited to add) Right now, if you have 2 ore and 2 oil, a vehicle costing 3 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive due to having two different expense sources, but one costing 4 ore and 2 oil is just expensive. Should I change this so that expense is based on TOTAL resources required that you don't have? EG, 3 ore and 3 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 2 oil is expensive, 4 ore and 3 oil is Very Expensive, 5 ore and 2 oil is Very Expensive. This seems like it would make sense. I'm not sure if it will affect any designs currently in place but people have certainly been taking the old system into account for new designs.In my opinion, we have a problem with designs needing too many resources before they increase in expense. This will exacerbate the problem. Things ought to be more expensive, not less.
I guess my main issue with the Rhino is that suddenly they have artillery in the mountains, whereas the fact that we have had a much superior piece for firing at fixed position for 10 years didn't do much. :pIndeed. That and apparently they can bring their 20mm recoilless rifle to the Mountains but we can't bring our 20mm autocannon. And also their RR can fire exploding shells while our autocannon can't.
Post by: Happerry on August 03, 2015, 03:14:26 am
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 03:16:03 am
Didn't your autocannon have the special design flaw of not being able to work with alternate ammo nicely? As something specific to the Autocannon, I mean?Kind of. It has a problem with changing between ammo types, meaning it can't switch from normal to AP quickly. It can still do so, though.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 03:16:29 am
Didn't your autocannon have the special design flaw of not being able to work with alternate ammo nicely? As something specific to the Autocannon, I mean?It needs to be recalibrated for a different ammunition weight. This means adjusting the spring, not having to redesign the weapon.
It prevents the cannon from firing mixed belts, but it doesn't mean we need to revise it all the time.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 03:26:53 am
-Extra spies should probably not work the way they do, where you have one spy who gets replaced and one who doesn't. Instead maybe spies should only be replaced up to the number of intelligence buildings you have. This would be kind of unfair to Arstotzka if they got a second spy and couldn't use the same tactics Moskurg used before.My opinion is, quite simply, that extra spies shouldn't be a thing. The spy action is an integral action of the game much like the design and revision action. Giving the one of the sides an extra action is way overpowered.
Quote
-Rhino Recoilless Rifle probably a little OP/anachronistic in terms of weight and performance. Maybe should be less portable or short range only, or both. Obviously this would be snubbing Moskurg retroactively though. This is the first piece of equipment I've submitted and really had second thoughts about, so I'd like to also establish a policy for when I make a mistake in the future and give somebody a rocket launcher that shouldn't be easy to engineer for another 30 years.
It really shouldn't exist now. The technology is simply not there to make the weapon function.
Quote
-Possibly related to the above, is how should I set difficulty for equipment which COULD be really valuable, and from an engineering standpoint can easily be built/has been built, but historically wasn't used until later for the main reason that people didn't realize it would be valuable? Assault rifles and their medium-powered rounds are good example of this. Shaped explosive charges might be also, I'm still not clear on the challenges involved in delivering shaped explosives accurately in a warhead. And don't say "just base it on how hard it would be to build" unless you're planning to alter history/conquer Europe.
Altering history sounds nice.
Quote
-I'm considering using less randomness overall. I've increased the importance of dice rolls compared to my original plan, which was to roll a die for each new technology and have a bad roll not get the technology or have a bug associated with the technology, and then have performance of equipment based on the technologies involved and the year created mainly. As it is I've been using dice to determine general efficiency/useability when I'm not sure, but this has had some questionable results (EG Moskurg and Arstotzka submit similar plane designs, Moskurg's is good and Arstotza's suffers from control and weight issues). In that example the triplane frame was an exacerbating factor but it remains that basically players took the same actions in the same year to different results. I'm considering using less dice rolls and having bad dice rolls be explicitly tied to discrete technologies so it's clear how to solve/avoid bugs in the future. I'd like your opinions before making changes in this department though.
Well, some randomness is needed for variety, otherwise it simply becomes a wiki-trawling/ convince the GM contest. Allowing the revision actions to be more powerfull can mitigate the unstability here.
Quote
-I'm also considering what to do when I realize that equipment should be useful in a way I haven't thought of after the fact, which seems too trivial to require a revision. Examples include towing artillery by truck (though not extremely useful) or machine guns on top of trains (somewhat useful). Another example is Arstotzkans performing strafing runs on rail tracks themselves (though I stand by my position on that not being valuable, but suppose I said it was). Should I keep a list of tactics used and not used for reference? Is it OK for a piece of equipment to suddenly become more effective than it was before because a player pointed out a more effective way to use it? Should I apply these retroactively, or characterize them as new orders given to soldiers? Should Moskurg get their alternate rounds in .60 caliber even though they said they wanted to make them for artillery? Should I automatically add what I think are very easy improvements like that in general/on good rolls?
New tactics should be able to be introduced, and then thus increase the effectiveness of a certain weapon. And I think we got alternate rounds for other ammunition, so the Moskurgians should probably get them too. Not that this time though, as the rounds simply won't work in the caliber.
All rounds rely on being filled with a substance which explodes on impact, and the round is simply to small for that.
Quote
-(Edited to add) Also, what about really small revisions? Stuff like Arstotzka getting the stupid flags taken off of soldiers' helmets. There are some things that seem to big to not do during a revision phase but also really small for a revision phase. Should I allow more rapid-fire revision, like I have with ammo types? Should I give something like a 1/2 Revision Credit rebate?
I suppose. On the other hand, we can just add more features to revisions.
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 03:36:01 am
Quote
My opinion is, quite simply, that extra spies shouldn't be a thing. The spy action is an integral action of the game much like the design and revision action. Giving the one of the sides an extra action is way overpowered.Well there's a thought. I could replace extra spies with Espionage Credits, giving your agent a second action.
Quote
It really shouldn't exist now. The technology is simply not there to make the weapon function.My initial observation was that it's like the 1910 Davis Gun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_gun) but smaller. There were also truck-mounted recoilless rifles used in the interwar period but I can't find much information on them. I know that infantry-portable recoilless rifles weren't invented for a while, and when they were they suffered from problems like the lightweight tubes failing after repeated firings, so I made it a disposable weapon (effectively, it had a long reload time and even a horse could only carry a couple shots). I figured it fell into the "people didn't realize they needed assault rifles until 1942" category of weapons since I couldn't find a specific engineering problem associated with it, but then again I couldn't find a lot of information altogether.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 03, 2015, 03:50:21 am
My second problem -
I totally support ahistorical developments, they are what makes such games fun. but... It is one thing when country that spent many design actions on small arms is capable to do and early SMG on a lucky roll, and other thing when country that has no artillery experience (one design and revision for weak howitzer+1 revision of shells) designs an advanced artillery piece without any drawbacks. They have no tools, no engineers, no experience, no necessary technologies.
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 03:52:21 am
The randomness you have right now isn't bad, as other people said just because 2 teams start with the same plan, it doesn't mean they get the same results , especially on the first attempt.
as far as weapons being used in new ways, no need for that to be retroactive. It is new orders given to soldiers.
about the recoilless rifle, I simply have no idea of the tech involved.
Post by: Happerry on August 03, 2015, 03:54:11 am
Also how does a Recoilless Rifle (Or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) count as an artillery weapon? It's more like a rocket then anything else, and you guys got prototype RPG rounds super earlier in the game as part of another design action all together, so personally I'm not seeing the problem...
Not that I'm a weapons guru who actually knows what he's talking about though.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 04:00:08 am
Quote
prototype RPG rounds super earlier in the game as part of another design action all together, so personally I'm not seeing the problem...To be honest, we wanted a mortar, which already existed at the time.
Quote
Also how does a Recoilless Rifle (Or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) count as an artillery weapon? It's more like a rocket then anything else,
Well, it isn't. A recoilless rifle is a gun which shoots forwards and backwards, in a single explosion, not the continuous arceleration of a rocket. In practice, this tremendously reduces the muzzle velocity, which should, especially with the explosives of this time, result in a weapon with short range and significant drop-off, making it extremely hard to aim at anyone further than point blank range.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 04:03:06 am
(effectively, it had a long reload time and even a horse could only carry a couple shots).Hold on, it needs a horse just to carry two shots!? How in the bloody hell is it even usable in the Mountains!? It would've made some amount of sense if it was 1/4 in Arstotzka's favour, but if horses can now cross the Mountains then why not motorbikes? Why not trucks or armoured cars?
My second problem -Holy crap you're right. This RR just keeps finding new ways to be impossible.
I totally support ahistorical developments, they are what makes such games fun. but... It is one thing when country that spent many design actions on small arms is capable to do and early SMG on a lucky roll, and other thing when country that has no artillery experience (one design and revision for weak howitzer+1 revision of shells) designs an advanced artillery piece without any drawbacks. They have no tools, no engineers, no experience, no necessary technologies.
Also how does a Recoilless Rifle (Or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) count as an artillery weapon?It fires an exploding charge and blows up our bunkers.
you guys got prototype RPG rounds super earlier in the game as part of another design action all togetherMortars work on somewhat similar principles as RPGs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 04:10:00 am
Quote
Mortars work on somewhat similar principles as RPGs.
Not quite. A mortar is merely a 2 side explosive. One blasts it out of it's barrel, the other explodes when it hits the target.
The recoilless rifle is simple, but instead of blasting against the barrel, it blasts against another mass which is launched in the other direction, thus wasting a large part of it's energy.
I noticed an error: The Moskburgian plane is considered to be cheap. However, it includes a radio, which is expensive. Thus it should be expensive.
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 05:22:40 am
I'd like the balance discussion to be ongoing, and it will probably have gone on for a while while I'm writing this turn, but for now, here is what I'm doing:
-If weapons CAN be built, they can be built by you. No penalty for magical foreknowledge of a weapon's tactical value. My main problem with this is actually that you already know what's conventionally effective(See: Wiki Reading) and it's not likely you'll try the weird stuff, but I can't think of a better way to administrate it.
-Extra spies replaced with Espionage Credits. Arstotzka gets an Espionage Credit for enduring the Tiger Terror.
-Going to do resource prices the logical way. New stuff going forward might have a bit higher base cost though.
-Tiny revisions and tactical improvements for free will be a thing. I'm calling them Orders, and the rule is that if it's an engineering improvement a soldier can do in the field, it will just happen. At least, if it doesn't contradict High Command.
-Moskurg will get .60 Incendiary rounds when they move past beverage-based incendiary technology. Smoke and fragmentation rounds are of course not available in this caliber.
-Moskurg RR might get less portable or range reduction, still thinking about it, would also like to hear from more Moskurgs. I'm not convinced it's a monstrosity that shouldn't exist but either of those changes would hurt it significantly, and are probably sensible.
I've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.(effectively, it had a long reload time and even a horse could only carry a couple shots).Hold on, it needs a horse just to carry two shots? How in the bloody hell is it even usable in the Mountains!? It would've made some amount of sense if it was 1/4 in Arstotzka's favour, but if horses can now cross the Mountains then why not motorbikes? Why not trucks?
1923 Battle Report:
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This year, both nations introduced new planes. The Arstotzkan AS-DB-HF-23 is built almost entirely out of Aluminium and three hyphens. It is a fighter-bomber designed for dive bombing, it's fast and maneuverable, at least when not carrying bombs. It had a radial engine and an autocannon that fires through the prop shaft, and is a low-winged monoplane. It's Expensive. Moskurg designed the M3 Wasp, a dedicated interceptor made out of wood but with Aluminum reinforcement to allow a cantilever wing design. It's armed with a Stallion, and its huge engine allows for it to go fast but its wooden structures are unstable at full speed. It's also Expensive, but Moskurg spent an expense credit on it this year. Arstotzka finally sorted out their uniform situation, convincing High Command to remove the little flags in exchange for the inner face of the suit being red and and gold. Moskurg designed the model 3 radio, portable by a mere two people, and on foot! This will benefit their vehicles mostly.
The war in the air is rapidly changing due to Aluminium, and the construction of metal planes. Arstotzka's industry has allowed them to build a fully metal airplane, the AS-DB-HF-23, which is meant to be a dive bomber and heavy fighter. These are Expensive, while Moskurg's partially aluminum gas guzzler the M3 Wasp is cheap this year. There are a few Model 1 biplanes as well, which are maneuverable, but just outpaced in dogfights by the new planes. M3 Wasps are the fastest things in the sky, but a little unstable- their wooden structure is vulnerable to Arstotzkan autocannons. The Wasp pretty much spells doom for AS-19C's, which can't keep up. Despite the speed advantage, M3 Wasps generally lose to sturdier and more stable AS-DB's, IF the DB's aren't carrying bombs. This leads Arstotzka to launch squads in which some DBs carry bombs and some don't, as escorts. M2 Hornets can no longer keep up with DB's, and neither can M1 Biplanes, so they depend on Wasps for cover to do their thing. Superior numbers on the Moskurg side compared to full Aluminium on the Arstotzkan side make it about an even fight, both sides periodically succeed in having superiority to attack ground targets. The AS-DB-HF-23 is rather effective against ground targets, and less vulnerable to Brumby fire due to its sturdy structure (Stallions of course will still cause problems.)
In the desert, both sides now have similar bombing capabilites. Armor remains dangerously vulnerable to night bombing, but it happens to Moskurg groups about as often as it happens to Arstotzkan ones. Moskurg uses their new audio radios to good advantage, coordinating their troop movements with greater efficiency. Good use of tactics means that Moskurg troops often outnumber Arstotzkan ones, but the AS-MV21 remains a thing of terror, which moves quickly, kills quickly, and is vulnerable mainly to innaccurate, slow Bombardiers and controversial Rhino Recoilless Rifles. When Arstotzkan armored cars DO get hit by Rhinos, any survivors in the crew get really angry about it. Motorcycle assaults continue to be a high-casualty affair, as do horse-mounted ones, though the portable machine guns on Arstotzkan motorcycles still typically have the advantage. The Arstotzkan advance stalls in the face of unusually well-organized troop movements, bombing and artillery. (Arstotzka 2/4, Moskurg 2/4)
In the mountains, Moskurg troops have now encountered Arstotzkan mines. Arstotzka gets some good use out of their armored cars, artillery and mortars to defend themselves, and now generally has the benefit of machine guns as well. Camouflaged troops make ambushes use AS-F14 and Nosin rifles, and generally outgun Model 1 riflemen, and will even kill squads that outnumber them if they manage to get the Brumby users first. The Moskurg advance stalls (Moskurg 3/4). On the north side of the mountains, new metal dive bombers assault Moskurg trains. The tactic is terribly effective, when a good number of Arstotzkan planes do get that fire while still carrying bombs. The tracks themselves are vulnerable as well, and some of the slack is picked up by Tiger logistics trucks.
In the jungle, Arstotzka makes especially good use of their new camouflage. While they lack CQC ability, they use ambush tactics to pick their own engagement range. Superior Arstotzkan rifle use, with the benefit of semi-automatic AS-F14's where needed, is valuable. AS-MV-21's continue to be ambushed by RR's enough that Arsotzkan troops no longer use them as vanguard units, sending infantry to scout instead and saving their armor for fortifications. This is a reasonably effective tactic, and scouting is again helped by camouflage. Arstotzka gains ground (2/2).
In the capitols, rebellion continues. Rebels light fires and disappear into the darkness. Executions of anyone suspected of rebellious behavior, perplexingly, only seem to make it worse. Both nations will suffer -1 oil next turn due to arson on their industries.
A German engineer, who insists that he is NOT in Forenia if anyone asks, is interested in learning about your weapons technology. He is willing to share some of his notes. The nation to submit the best picture of a piece of equipment, be it small arms, armor, plane, boat or whatever, will receive one Design Credit. Submissions are wide open. Pictures drawn/otherwise created by you only, please, not photos grabbed off of Google.
1924 begins.
Post by: Happerry on August 03, 2015, 05:29:52 am
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 05:40:00 am
So how are Moskurg shrapnel shells doing against aircraft? They might not be specifically designed for anti air, but they were described as basically being a shotgun shell, so I'd think with proper use they could do some damage.Get good, Moskurg. Arstotzka-made Artillery A is more accurate, has a faster rate of fire, and uses proper flak shells to defeat inferior Moskurg planes.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 05:48:25 am
So how are Moskurg shrapnel shells doing against aircraft? They might not be specifically designed for anti air, but they were described as basically being a shotgun shell, so I'd think with proper use they could do some damage.Largely, they are just effective against infantry. They don't have the precise, adjustable fuze timing to operate as impromptu flak shells.
Post by: evilcherry on August 03, 2015, 05:50:08 am
- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).
- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 05:52:49 am
I've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.Ah, thought our motorbikes could go wherever our horses could go. Does this mean we need to build mechs?
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.Our armoured cars are thicker and made of better metal than your armoured cars. Medium armour on the front and Light everywhere else. The only reason our T15 hasn't been replaced is that it's armed with an artillery piece.
EDIT: That's before we get into shaping.
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 05:58:19 am
A few observations:-This might change as engines get bigger and faster. We haven't had anything resembling modern tank engines or full sized bombers yet. Steam tanks were blatantly a way to avoid oil costs, they had appropriate drawbacks.
- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).
- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.
-The radio is most valuable where there's a lot of mixed armor movement, and bombing and artillery, which are less important in the jungle. Also, camo in the jungle is kind of a basic thing.
-RR's are not terribly accurate and won't survive missing their first shot, usually. They also need people dedicated to them, someone generally won't have an RR and a horsekiller as well.
-MV21 is not getting nerfed. You did manage to counter it in the jungle.
-T1 will go faster when you improve it. Or better, make a T2.
Mechs would be a difficult research path, but very worthwhile if you can get them to stop tripping over themselves. Probably easier to gain control of the mountains with superior infantry and then build a highway though. Or for all I care, you can build a highway now if you convince Moskurg to sign a treaty for ceasefire long enough to do so. :PI've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.Ah, thought our motorbikes could go wherever our horses could go. Does this mean we need to build mechs?- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.Our armoured cars are thicker and made of better metal than your armoured cars. Medium armour on the front and Light everywhere else. The only reason our T15 hasn't been replaced is that it's armed with an artillery piece.
EDIT: That's before we get into shaping.
The T15, by the way, is not effective artillery, it can't aim high and its crew has a narrow view. For artillery, you've been using the guns on their own.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 06:02:45 am
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 06:07:00 am
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 06:27:16 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Taricus on August 03, 2015, 06:33:23 am
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 06:36:14 am
What do we use the T15 for then?Coffins.
I'm kinda miffed by there never being any mention of worry to the Arstotzkan trains when their air cover breaks down. Especially since with the radios, we can tell the airbases where and when the trains are, rather than attacking at random.Bombers are mostly attacking the front lines. Arstotzka is uncomfortably close to your logistics operations in the mines, but you're mostly not crossing into their logistics in the plains.
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 06:38:03 am
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 06:54:53 am
Spoiler: AS-LM20 Image (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 07:11:37 am
not really sure, the GM should clarify.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 07:17:23 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 07:18:41 am
- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).Who says you can't. Wooden planes don't use armor. Simply design a wooden 2 or 4 engine bomber.
Quote
- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.You had radio for a while. The improvements are spread out, and thus the incremental benefit appears smaller.
Quote
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.Not really.
See, it fires a simple high explosive artillery shell. Not HEAT, not armor piercing. Just simple high explosive, which on it's own, is not very effective. All in all, it should not even breach the frontal armor.
In addition, high dropoff means much shorter range. Also, while your weaponry is cheap, you're not equipping everyone with it. After all, they can take either a rifle or a Rhino. Given that consideration, you should think of your weapon as Very Expensive rather than cheap.
Quote
- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
It does not need nerfing. It's perfectly fine. Armoring fits the GM established rules, it wasn't build 30 years before it existed, and all that.
Quote
- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.I don't think you ever improved the engine.
I think that the reason we can do all that threatening of railroads is that we hold plains and have airfields there, while you have no such advanced position to start air attacks from. our side of the mountain is quite far from your capital and perhaps your planes have an hard time bombing that?
not really sure, the GM should clarify.
He did. It is the fact that the front is a long distance away from our logistic operations (no airforce bases in the Jungle).
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 07:29:16 am
Quote
Quote- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
It does not need nerfing. It's perfectly fine. Armoring fits the GM established rules, it wasn't build 30 years before it existed, and all
Well, except for the weapon, being a reliable 20mm autocannon. That's only 15-20 years ahead of time.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 07:34:41 am
Not really. These things were designed and build in 1913.QuoteWell, except for the weapon, being a reliable 20mm autocannon. That's only 15-20 years ahead of time.Quote- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.It does not need nerfing. It's perfectly fine. Armoring fits the GM established rules, it wasn't build 30 years before it existed, and all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becker_Type_M2_20_mm_cannon
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 07:36:20 am
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 07:39:50 am
The box magazines would be a little inefficient in the air.A belt-fed variant was created when we revised our first aircraft. This variant has gone on to serve us basically wherever we used the autocannon.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 03, 2015, 07:42:42 am
Actually this aircraft revision was funny, it failed all rolls but improving firepower
Post by: evilcherry on August 03, 2015, 07:45:09 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).Who says you can't. Wooden planes don't use armor. Simply design a wooden 2 or 4 engine bomber.
Quote
And yet we are not having its effect at any time of the day.Quote- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.You had radio for a while. The improvements are spread out, and thus the incremental benefit appears smaller.
Quote
1. We have the Tiger. Our logistical problem of the rhino mainly depends on how well we can defend our forward ammo dumps.Quote- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.Not really.
See, it fires a simple high explosive artillery shell. Not HEAT, not armor piercing. Just simple high explosive, which on it's own, is not very effective. All in all, it should not even breach the frontal armor.
In addition, high dropoff means much shorter range. Also, while your weaponry is cheap, you're not equipping everyone with it. After all, they can take either a rifle or a Rhino. Given that consideration, you should think of your weapon as Very Expensive rather than cheap.
2. As manpower is never a consideration, High alpha weapons should be of some advantage. We can just use human wave attacks against those armored cars.
3. Not to mention that you are building a wheeled vehicle. Desert, heavy, and high mobility isn't a valid combination.
4. Its armor is weaker than most modern armored cars (for the VIPs, not for fighting). HE shells should be reliably denting if not beating 10mm armor.
Quote
It ended up being this:Quote- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
It does not need nerfing. It's perfectly fine. Armoring fits the GM established rules, it wasn't build 30 years before it existed, and all that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_gun
Quote
Quote- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.I don't think you ever improved the engine.I think that the reason we can do all that threatening of railroads is that we hold plains and have airfields there, while you have no such advanced position to start air attacks from. our side of the mountain is quite far from your capital and perhaps your planes have an hard time bombing that?
not really sure, the GM should clarify.
He did. It is the fact that the front is a long distance away from our logistic operations (no airforce bases in the Jungle).
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 07:45:09 am
Also, our belt-fed version of the autocannon overheats and jams from continuous fire.Actually, it was the MC17 that overheated and jammed. When we used the Expense credit on our MC16, we got the MC17 which was like the MC16 except belt-fed and cheap. The problem is there for the MC16 too, but it doesn't get fired enough for many problems to crop up in the field.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 03, 2015, 07:47:36 am
Quote
The belt-fed variation of the AS-AC18 does necessitate pauses in fire to avoid overheating when used on the ground, but good gunners still prefer this to loading magazines. Less good gunners damage their AS-AC18.
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 07:51:52 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 08:01:06 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 03, 2015, 08:03:20 am
/me shrugs
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 08:09:07 am
I think we should change topic?
Post by: Donuts on August 03, 2015, 08:11:32 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 08:20:59 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a side note, I think there's an issue with the cost system. Basically, no matter how many low cost systems you design, you always have enough ore.
Post by: Devastator on August 03, 2015, 08:54:54 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 03, 2015, 12:49:43 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 02:08:56 pm
So, I think the RR is justified enough that it can stay in my game, and it's not underpowered at all. The AC18 is definitely fine, and although having a belt-fed APIB might be pretty anachronistic (I couldn't find a good source) it's really otherwise not unlike real weapons of its time. Also if you're curious, yes, being on an airplane does inherently improve a weapon's cooling. If you hate the other side's weapons, steal/sabotage them.
Regarding the cost system, you're generally manufacturing a total number of low cost (or whatever price tier) items to equip the whole army. In general, I'm assuming each side has an equal number of soldiers even if I also said they have been suffering more casualties in the past- it's just game balance logic. This would be relevant if EG one army had Very Expensive tanks and planes, and one army had Expensive tanks and Very Expensive planes. The second army would field more of their Very Expensive planes than the other army. We mostly haven't had this scenario come up though. Also, I strictly refuse to so much as give an estimate for total number of soldiers/tanks/planes fielded, it'll set a precedent to which I'll have to balance everything else.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 02:14:58 pm
I design a tank. It is Very expensive. I revise the tank. I now have doubled the amount of tanks.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 02:18:17 pm
The second army would field more of their Very Expensive planes than the other army. We mostly haven't had this scenario come up though. Also, I strictly refuse to so much as give an estimate for total number of soldiers/tanks/planes fielded, it'll set a precedent to which I'll have to balance everything else.
Wait, you mean Tank? Or does having a cheap something mean you get more of the expensive something else because you don't spend as much ressurces on the first one?
Also, the RR you described was more like the oversized, 1910's "Two gun soldered back to back" than like a rocket launcher. There is a reason no one is using weapons on that principle anymore and they never saw deployment outside one very specific area (plane-based Anti-Submarine warfare): they sucks. Being recoilless is not advantage when you need a base to support the gun that can handle the recoil anyway, and they weight twice as much for the same effect as a normal gun.
It'd be hilarious to see Moksburg plane equipped with cannons though. :p
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 02:28:14 pm
I design a tank. It is Very expensive. I revise the tank. I now have doubled the amount of tanks.You do not. That is exactly the opposite of how I said it worked when we hammered out these rules early in the game. If you have the Tank 1 and then revise it into the Tank 1A, then you replace a portion of Tank 1's (usually half, or all if the 1A is better in every way) with the Tank 1A.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 02:30:08 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 03, 2015, 02:58:53 pm
I think 10ebbor10 was talking about revising a tank to be cheaper.In that case... yeah, that's how it works. You're able to manufacture a lot more of the cheaper tanks.
Post by: Iituem on August 03, 2015, 03:55:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
[100% used a reference for this, but nevertheless done by hand.]
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 03:56:52 pm
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 04:10:15 pm
here is an AS-DB-HF-23
Spoiler: diving (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: level flight (click to show/hide)
not textured because I am still wrestling with blender. I'll post something at least marginally better later.
Post by: Iituem on August 03, 2015, 04:12:37 pm
[Very nice renders, am impressed.]
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 04:15:28 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 05:08:52 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 03, 2015, 05:09:24 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 05:12:30 pm
Logistics capacity, if I remember correctly.We gave sufficient capacity. We get 4 from trains, 1 from trucks, and 1 from boats.
We should have 4 ore, unless Moskurgians are blowing up something somewhere.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2015, 05:13:36 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 03, 2015, 05:15:31 pm
Spoiler: M3 Wasp (click to show/hide)
Quick paint sketch of our new interceptor.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 03, 2015, 05:15:57 pm
Edit: The M3's wings are middle, not bottom mounted IIRC.
Post by: andrea on August 03, 2015, 05:35:52 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
special thanks to Sensei who encouraged me to keep looking for textures ( although I ignored his advice and went the way of multiple materials)
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 06:28:48 pm
It's a typo, otherwise our planes would have been at a very expensive versus cheap disadvantage, but now it's merely expensive versus cheap.It also makes our armoured cars cheap and our CV22 ships and T15s Expensive.
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 03, 2015, 06:44:50 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 03, 2015, 07:14:55 pm
Spoiler: I can't promise one of these for every year. (click to show/hide)
Post by: heydude6 on August 03, 2015, 07:24:09 pm
Post by: Andres on August 03, 2015, 07:34:13 pm
Seriously Sensei, why does this propoganda not have any effect on quelling the rebellion? It's incredibly well written and we're doing more than the arstozkans are doing.Our own government is doing the exact same thing. It's just that none of us on our side are drawing fan art of it.
EDIT: Execute only people convicted of rebel behaviour.
Post by: evilcherry on August 03, 2015, 11:34:07 pm
nice picture indeed.How can something with so much dihedral perform as a fighter? It doesn't look like it want to do a barrel roll.
here is an AS-DB-HF-23Spoiler: diving (click to show/hide)Spoiler: level flight (click to show/hide)
not textured because I am still wrestling with blender. I'll post something at least marginally better later.
I'm thinking of a new newspaper series: The enemy exposed.
Post by: Iituem on August 04, 2015, 01:52:52 am
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 02:18:55 am
Seriously Sensei, why does this propoganda not have any effect on quelling the rebellion? It's incredibly well written and we're doing more than the arstozkans are doing.
Well, it didn't have any effect when I did it either. I think that it is well understood on both sides that all the fluff we are making out of contests is for our personal pleasure only. That, and showing the other side their inferiority.
@evilcherry
well , I have little experience with fighter planes, so what I did was just take a picture of a dive bomber and work off that. Just assume we have some incredible control surfaces. or possibly I screwed up on the angle.
Post by: evilcherry on August 04, 2015, 03:18:52 am
Let's not be catty. :P((But then the Stuka or the A5M are both flatter than this hyphen terror.))
THE ENEMY EXPOSED
The only legit source on the enemy from the frontlines
Enemy Dive Bomber Exposed: As Maneuverable As a Duck
Moskurg City - Exposed have received a few pictures of the latest dive bomber of the enemy. Moskurg analysts said these planes are as good as a sitting duck.
These pictures are understood as part of an Arstotzkan campaign to recruit more bodies to be shot down by Moskurg guns in their flying graves. Their flying hardware is being pictured both in flying and diving position, and these photos proved valuable for our military analysis.
"Look at this plane," Dr. Fabian Thomas of Moskurg Aerospace said to Exposed. "This is probably their newest AS-DB-HF-23, judging from its radically different wing profile. Unlike their last triplane, this is a monoplane with a highly slanted wing, which we call a gull wing.
"According to our studies, such wings will improve flight stability; if rumours on the AS-DB-HF-23 are true, then this might be a design feature to improve their bomb aim, as they will want to have our men at a very specific relative position in order to score a hit on us.
"Such design, however, have one big problem. They have traded off a lot of maneuverability with this design, so they are only good at flying in a straight line. They are not really good in turning, evading, or anything other than bombing.
"In addition, that plane doesn't look like to have any armament other than a nose-fitted gun. We predict that our latest designs should have an upper hand in terms of initiative against them."
We have radioed, mailed, and telegraphed the Arstotzkan army but so far they haven't responded to our questions.
Errata: Apparently, an Arstotzkan sleeper has infiltrated our ranks, and misinformed our editor that the Arstotzkan plane was a biplane instead of a triplane. The sleeper was taken to the authorities and the error has been rectified.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 04, 2015, 03:23:40 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 04, 2015, 03:40:52 am
Considering we dont have radio, atleast not any close to the fronts, mail is not being delivered and telegraph has been cut since before the war, is it any wonder theres no response?Don't question the Integrity of the Expose. They are doing their best to interview the other side for more balanced reporting. Its not the fault for the newspaper if your interviewee won't respond.
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 03:53:51 am
Unlike their last biplaneWell damn. We kill Moskurgs so quickly they haven't even realised that our only other plane was a triplane. Go Arstotzka! Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: evilcherry on August 04, 2015, 03:54:55 am
Oh, errata then. The expose must have got their hands on the wrong documents.Unlike their last biplaneWell damn. We kill Moskurgs so quickly they haven't even realised that our only other plane was a triplane. Go Arstotzka! Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 04:23:44 am
Spoiler: newspaper, april 1923 (click to show/hide)
off the news: some inflation ( price increased)
by the way. it is meant as a monthly bulletin published on the 30th of the month ( 28th if february). And the number is accurate, I have made an excel sheet with the numbers for all the months and years I want :P
Post by: Sensei on August 04, 2015, 04:50:11 am
Equipment Pictures
Great stuff! It's a tough decision against Adrea's 3D renders, but I'll have to pick Iituem's Lt. Otto with Model 1 Service Rifle as the best. Moskurg earns a Design Credit!
The Civilian Market
There are a number of civilian uses for new military hardware and technology. Civilians buy guns, radios, cars, planes and so on for both personal and industrial use. Now that your armies have been building for a while, you have some pre-owned surplus equipment which can be sold to your population and foreigners alike. The nation to submit to best ad for military surplus equipment will earn an Expense Credit. Much to the chagrin of the international Tank Hobbyist Club, Arstotzka and Moskurg have both decided not to sell battle tanks and bombing-capable aircraft in light of recent surges in rebel activity.
A note on Resources and cost
In the Moskurg thread, I said that piece of equipment costing 5 more resources than you have would be Very Expensive. This means that a resource deficit of 1 is Expensive, 3 is Very Expensive, and 6 is A National Effort, and this will apply in general. I think I'm fine with the logic in this exponential curve, I just thought everyone should be aware as this will affect your expense targets if you're trying to make a Very Expensive equipment. Watch out for expensive technology or sudden resource shortages though!
1924 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Continued in next post.
Post by: Sensei on August 04, 2015, 04:51:02 am
This year, Arstotzka manufactured their first LMG, the AS-1924. It is a gas piston operated machinegun which is easily operable by one man, and uses an aluminium frame to reduce weight. It's cheap, though a bit specialized- it can't be fired with near as much accuracy as a rifle while standing. They also designed a variant on the AS-DB-HF-23, the AS-HF-24, meant for the specific role of a heavy fighter. It uses a new fuel injected engine for maximum speed, and replaces its bomb load with four extra machine guns. Moskurg design the T2 Breaker tank, designed to take back the desert. It uses RHA armor, a narrow high-velocity antitank gun, as well as a couple machine guns. It's powered by a new diesel engine, with the design goal of saving fuel.
Both nations have reduced fuel this year. T1 Smashers have become Very Expensive again. The AS-A19C has been rendered Expensive, so they sit in hangars while precious fuel is used in more effective AS-DB-HF-23's, and neither side has an inexpensive plane.
The war in the air is increasingly oriented around fighters dueling over control of areas to make a safe path for bombers and other vulnerable craft. The Moskurg fighter is still the Model 3 Wasp. The Arstotzkan's have complimented their DB's with a new Very Expensive fuel injected variant used specifically as a fighter. All of Arstotzka's best pilots (including Andrei Zhuyev) now pilot AS-HF-24's and escort their dive bomber counterparts. These planes can almost keep pace with the huge-engined Wasp, and can outmaneuver and thoroughly out-gun them. They're not in every battle, but they are enough to give Arstotzka an advantage. In a few instances, the new fuel injection system will have one of its nine pumps/injectors fail and flood the engine, forcing pilots to glide to a cross-country landing. Arstotkan bombers are roughly as effective against ground targets as Moskurg ones, although their dive bombing helps hit moving targets.
In the Desert, the Moskurg army reorganizes around the T2 Breaker tank. Despite being Very Expensive, it is extremely effective. The 1.6 inch Breaker cannon is accurate and part of a turret which rotates quickly, it is an ideal weapon for picking off AS-MV21 armored cars, even if it usually takes gunners a few shots to hit their fast-moving targets. The armor is impervious to AP 7.62mm rounds and can only be penetrated by autocannons at close range. In general, a Breaker can take on a squad of APCs and spend as much time as it wants mopping up motorcycles and cheeky Arstotzkan infantry trying to get a direct mortar hit. The biggest threat to the Breaker by far is bombing, a near or direct bomb hit will destroy it, and the pintle Brumby isn't a very reliable way of stopping AS-DB's before they can release their payload. AS-T15's, now cheap, are reinstated in force to counter the Breaker threat. The Breaker can line up accurate shots so quickly from a long distance against the big, lumbering T15's with their slow and somewhat innaccurate (due simply to being huge) AS-1912 guns that Moskurg pilots come to calling the AS-T15 the Sitting Duck, and AS-T15 crews "accidentally" ruin their boilers and request to be reassigned to motorcycles, horses, bicycles or unicycles. T1 Smashers are used mainly in defensive battles, because they can't keep up with the T2. Moskurg gains ground (3/4)
In the mountains, Arstotzka makes significant use of their AS-1924. Moskurg now not only doesn't have the exclusive use of light machine guns, but the Arstotzkan variation is lighter and cheaper, and slightly more accurate to boot owing to newer manufacturing practices. Arstotzka uses their AS-1924 where appropriate (medium range engagements mostly) and generally wins in long range rifle engagements. Their mortar with flares and incendiary shells is effective against the rare Moskurg emplacements where someone has assembled a Stallion piece by piece. They also continue to get good use of their camo. Arstotzka gains ground (2/2).
In the jungle, Arstotzka also benefits from their new AS-1924. Moskurg makes use of their T2 Breaker to regain control of the roads, and it's quite effective. Arstotzka mostly can't depend on their AS-MV21's now, between the Breaker and the Rhino, but they win medium range infantry fights with their new AS-1924 giving them a slight mobility advantage over the Brumby and good camo aiding in ambushes. Against emplacements, which includes T2 Breaker and T1 Smasher roadblocks, they make extensive use the the AS-1911 mortar. Casualties are high on both sides, but the inability to easily transport troops on roads by motorcycle (they'll run into a tank and die) near Moskurg emplacements means that Arstotzkan advance is stalled despite advantageous performance in infantry fights, as the Moskurg troopers move by truck and are radio-organized. Moskurg holds, (2/2).
On a rain-slick precipice in the high mountain pass, under rumbling storm clouds, Arstotzkan secret agent Promised Crucible leaves Moskurg lines, and tosses his Moskurg coat to the wind. He meets an Arstotzkan field medic headed his way- she watches him discard his Moskurg uniform. He hails the field medic and says, "I'm with the Ministry of Integrity. I'm carrying the plans to one of those damned Moksburg radios, can you believe they weren't ovens this whole time? I need immediate passage back to the capitol." The field medic was actually a Moskurg spy, Agent Sandworm, also carrying stolen plans. She draws an AS-1909 pistol to shoot him right there, but it jams and fails to fire its first shot. Realizing himself to be in the presence of his Moskurg rival, Promised Crucible tackles Agent Sandworm to the ground. The two trade fisticuffs and try to push the other off of the jagged ledge, with sharp stone below. Promised crucible steals Sandworm's folder of stolen documents on camouflage ("A Dissertation on the Tactical Value (or Malus) of Glorious Flags on Helmets and Uniforms"), but is suddenly thrown from the ledge! His own stolen documents tumble onto sharp rocks and into a quick flowing stream. Quickly, he pulls the cord on his spy-issue pants-concealed parachute, and floats to safety before Sandworm can reload and fire her shoddy AS-1909. It takes her four attempts, after which she unloads an entire magazine into the empty mountain peaks in anger. Well, she unloads most of a magazine, it jams again part way through.
Back in the capitol, Agent Promised Crucible does some investigation on the rebel threat, but it's not like he's going to post his notes here where dirty Moksburgs can see them.
You may now begin designing for 1925!
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 04:59:10 am
If I am reading the rules right, they get 2 expense levels from the ore(3 missing) and, for this turn, an expense level for the oil(1 missing), for a total of 3 expense levels ( national effort). Next turn it will be merely expensive, after oil production is restored.
But it seems that you classed it as very expensive instead?
Post by: Sensei on August 04, 2015, 05:03:44 am
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 05:04:58 am
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 05:09:48 am
Post by: Sensei on August 04, 2015, 05:13:11 am
ah, fine. You should update the opening post.Yes, I should. Thanks for reminding me.
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 05:23:01 am
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 05:25:47 am
(and besides, I still got to relearn a bit of 3D modelling)
Post by: Taricus on August 04, 2015, 05:32:53 am
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 05:35:47 am
Wait, how are we at 2 all in the eastern desert if we (Moskurg) gained ground?You didn't gain enough ground to cover a full unit of distance.
Post by: Sensei on August 04, 2015, 05:40:38 am
Wait, how are we at 2 all in the eastern desert if we (Moskurg) gained ground?Well, I didn't think I'd mess up something that easy, but I did! I somehow though Arstotzka was at 3/4 in 1923. Moskurg now holds 3/4 East Desert.
Post by: Taricus on August 04, 2015, 05:46:00 am
Post by: tryrar on August 04, 2015, 05:47:40 am
Also, am I reading the fact that Arstotzka uses unicycles in combat right? XD
I think that was a half-serious joke from our T15 drivers, since a unicycle is a better combat vehicle than those coffins :P
Post by: Aseaheru on August 04, 2015, 05:48:46 am
Post by: Taricus on August 04, 2015, 05:50:47 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 04, 2015, 06:19:04 am
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 07:33:35 am
Spoiler: Arstotzka Vehicle Advertisement (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 04, 2015, 07:58:04 am
are you sure you're really arstotzkan
Post by: Iituem on August 04, 2015, 01:33:53 pm
Spoiler: Adverts STRONK! (click to show/hide)
Gods damn it, I screwed up the formatting of the titles between pics. Ah well.
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 01:35:20 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 04, 2015, 01:38:00 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 04, 2015, 01:40:51 pm
Also, Iituem, you know you can sell things without their guns, right?
Post by: Iituem on August 04, 2015, 01:42:24 pm
Also, Iituem, you know you can sell things without their guns, right?
[does not compute]
Post by: Aseaheru on August 04, 2015, 01:44:01 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 04, 2015, 01:49:11 pm
communists and religion?
are you sure you're really arstotzkan
The demons of the air are very real, one must compromise sometimes.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 04, 2015, 01:50:37 pm
I'll have 1 radio please.
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 02:05:58 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 04, 2015, 02:07:47 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 04, 2015, 03:01:18 pm
Have you never even been to Moskurg? All Moskurgs carry rifles in case of tiger attack!
Is Moskurg law. If you see someone attack a tiger, you must shoot them!
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 03:10:56 pm
Spoiler: boat sale as well! ( it is not like it is any useful as a military vehicle) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 05:45:32 pm
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 05:51:04 pm
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 06:26:04 pm
Spoiler: at tis rate, I should buy a printing press (click to show/hide)
edit: on second thought, there were some things I could add to fill space, so I could skip that rugby article. Such as some pilots deciding to keep the sidecar on the design, to bring spare parts , tools or in a couple of cases a navigator. That was actually an interesting part, surely more than a rugby match between university teams. But it is too late at night to fix that. I suppose it will be written on page 2 or 3.
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 06:33:11 pm
Post by: andrea on August 04, 2015, 06:35:24 pm
( note: I am actually completely ignorant of that mythology gag, just guessing.)
Post by: Andres on August 04, 2015, 06:36:30 pm
I thought that was the national team sent to international competitionsYep, that's it. Just in case it ever came up.
( note: I am actually completely ignorant of that mythology gag, just guessing.)
Post by: Sensei on August 05, 2015, 03:19:10 am
It has come to High Command's attention that there is quite a bit of money to be made selling alcohol to United States "tourists" who buy Arak from Moskurg or Vodka from Arstotzka by the crate. Both nations could easily earn an expense credit this way, but High Command would like your vote on whether do so.
War Heroes
The Nation to post the best propaganda about a war hero before the 1926 battle report will receive that hero in their army, and a bonus to their performance. The War Hero's position (infantry, air force, armor or navy) will determine the nature of your bonus. Apocryphal claims to skill will not disqualify your War Hero, but they might not be able to literally live up to propaganda about them wrestling a submarine to death.
The War Museum
This year I'll start pruning Obsolete weapons from army lists to decrease the character count of my posts. These weapons and their technologies are still available to you if you need them for whatever reason. When I get around to it, I might add these to the OP, depending on how many characters I have left there (I suppose I should have reserved a couple posts).
Rebel Activity
The rebels are quiet in Arstotzka. In Moskurg, the fliers continue to appear.
1925 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This year, Moskurg developed the MK-47, a battle rifle using the same rounds as their Model 1 Service Rifle. It ended up heavier than intended, inaccurate and not belt fed. It's cheap, though, so it will get used by some soldiers who can't get a Brumby. They also built the B2 Destroyer, a big artillery piece firing 4-inch rounds which can out-range the AS-1912. They revised their Wasp too, adding retractable landing gear to improve its aerodynamics. Arstotzka designed the impressive T25 tank, with a monster fuel-injected, turbocharged engine that proved too difficult to produce more than one prototype this year.
The war in the air hasn't changed much since last year. Wasps are somewhat more stable now, and perform better in general, but the AS-DB-HF-23 is still a little better. AS-HF-24's give Arstotzka an edge as well and no longer suffers from fuel injector woes. Arstotzka retains a general advantage, and their dive bombers thus get more ground kills than Moskurg Model 2 Hornets. Andrei Zhuyev performs a stunt where he gets out of the seat of his HF-24 in flight, and walks from the end of one wing to the other to demonstrate how stable the plane his. The plane rolls and he falls off, and High Command reassigns him to dish washing for a whole month before giving him a new plane.
In the desert, the T2 Breaker push continues. AS-T15 production is officially ceased. The most important fights continue to be those of T2's versus AS-MV21's, where the T2 has the advantage. Arstotzka's motorcycles take a significant increase in casualties after Moskurg's cavalry adopts the MK-47, but overall the better range of the bike-mounted AS-1910's still means they perform well- their biggest flaw is that they cannot shoot behind themselves, so tend to end up at close range not long in to battles. AS-MV21's of course continue to mop the floor with Struunks, and the biggest threat to Moskurg heavy armor is aircraft (pintle mounted Brumbies aren't that effective at stopping fast dive bombers, unless they miss their bombing run). Moskurg gains the desert (4/4). In the last month of the year initial skirmishes on the plains begin. Long-ranged but poorly mobile B2 Destroyer artillery is hauled to within range of the trenches by tiger trucks, where they rain radio-targeted death on anything stationary above ground level, forcing Arstotzkan troops to keep their armor on the move and their autocannons and AS-1910's poking out of trenches. T2 Tanks can roll with impunity from anything except a good AS-1912 artillery hit or a rather luck AS-1911 shell and cross trenches. Moskurg troops make some attempts to storm trenches with MK-47's, but the heavy weapon is ill suited to CQC. Moskurg troops continue to fight in their trenches with sidearms, and Cascades when they can get them.
In the mountains, Moskurg troops prefer the Brumby to the MK-47 for its accuracy, even though it is less mobile. It doesn't stop Arstotzka's momentum, and Arstotzka gains ground (3/4).
In the jungle, Moskurg makes use of their new MK-47 and B2 Destroyer. The Destroyer is a good way to hit Arstotzkan fortifications from further away than SPATs, but it lacks mobility for easy jungle use. The MK-47 is sort of at home here, it benefits some situations where it can be easier fired on the move compared to the Brumby, but general lack of accuracy hurts it here- it doesn't displace a lot of Model 1 Service Rifles. Arstotzka still has the camouflage advantage, and chooses medium to long range fights. Nobody gains ground (2/2).
In the streets of Moskurg, Agent Promised Crucible tracks Agent Sandworm down. After a brief gun/fruit battle, Sandworm escapes, this time not losing stolen plans to the AS-1911 Mortar.
You may now begin designing for 1926.
Post by: Happerry on August 05, 2015, 03:39:30 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 05, 2015, 03:54:40 am
Post by: tryrar on August 05, 2015, 03:55:57 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 05, 2015, 04:03:28 am
...Is there a reason the AS-T25 Tank is in the Moskurg stuff section? Not that I'm objecting to a free tank...It ended up like the Maus, I believe.
Post by: notquitethere on August 05, 2015, 04:03:35 am
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 04:04:52 am
This game looks pretty amazing. Reminds me a lot of The Pentagon Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA). Which side needs people the most right now?We've got plenty of people on our side, but I think they have plenty of people on their side too. We're losing if that matters at all to you.
Post by: tryrar on August 05, 2015, 04:07:50 am
This game looks pretty amazing. Reminds me a lot of The Pentagon Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA). Which side needs people the most right now?We've got plenty of people on our side, but I think they have plenty of people on their side too. We're losing if that matters at all to you.
....you have a funny definition of "losing" :P. We've only been temporarily pushed out of the desert, are well on our way of taking the mountains, hold the plains, and stalemate the jungles.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 05, 2015, 04:08:05 am
10/10 premium arstotzkan fighting spirit surrender already
Post by: Happerry on August 05, 2015, 04:10:44 am
This game looks pretty amazing. Reminds me a lot of The Pentagon Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA). Which side needs people the most right now?The USAA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152372.0) needs the most people with only two active players.
If by hold the plains you mean 'die to our new artillery and tanks', yes, yes you are. And we have Mortars now, so your luck in the mountains might be turning around...This game looks pretty amazing. Reminds me a lot of The Pentagon Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA). Which side needs people the most right now?We've got plenty of people on our side, but I think they have plenty of people on their side too. We're losing if that matters at all to you.
....you have a funny definition of "losing" :P. We've only been temporarily pushed out of the desert, are well on our way of taking the mountains, hold the plains, and stalemate the jungles.
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 04:31:58 am
get kicked out of desert, call yourself losingHey, I'm just saying we're losing the war. I'm not saying we're surrendering, unlike a certain Moskurg...
10/10 premium arstotzkan fighting spirit surrender already
Fair enough. I suppose moskurg might well surrender, then. If we can't put pressure on our opponents when at 3/4, what's the point, then?
Post by: Sensei on August 05, 2015, 04:36:44 am
Who got the expense credit from military surplus stuff?Arstotzka! Arstotzka gets an expense credit.
Post by: QuakeIV on August 05, 2015, 06:21:54 am
This game looks pretty amazing. Reminds me a lot of The Pentagon Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA).
Oh hell, that is literally exactly what the design threads look like.
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 07:13:21 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on August 05, 2015, 07:25:50 am
Not toomuch though.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 05, 2015, 07:28:18 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 05, 2015, 07:31:05 am
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 09:43:21 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 05, 2015, 10:46:52 am
Post by: Iituem on August 05, 2015, 11:20:04 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 05, 2015, 12:32:26 pm
We need to revise the ammo type to compensate for the blow-back.((Damn it has no bolt lock like the M2. I missed that.))
Post by: andrea on August 05, 2015, 01:08:09 pm
The parade stops in front of a new monument, where the casket is buried in a grand state funeral, many hundreds of women crying.
Here is buried a great general, you will think!
Here must be buried an ace of the skies you will say.
But should you look inside , you would only see a charred and badly wounded corpse, in a plain uniform without any decoration.
Not somebody famous, or rich, or powerful. This casket brings one of the many, too many unidentified corpses brough home from the front to which nobody could give a name.
The distraught women are the mothers of all the young men lost in battle and of which the corpse could not be found or buried.
This is the tomb of our greatest hero, the nameless Arstotzkan soldier who did not abandon the safety and comfort of his home for fame, glory, power or richness, but for love of his country.
he who fought the hardest battles, brought us our victories and suffered for our defeats but still went on, pride of his proud race.
on his tomb, an inscription
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
say, are we allowing to propose the unknown soldier as an hero? Sure , he is more a symbol of the collective identity of those who died in battle, but nitpicking a bit there IS a person buried there
Post by: Sensei on August 05, 2015, 02:42:00 pm
actually, how and why's the MK-47 inaccurate at range? I can see it inaccurate on full auto, but it should be on par with the Model I on semiauto.Aside from being clumsy, it is not select-fire.
Post by: Taricus on August 05, 2015, 03:58:49 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on August 05, 2015, 04:08:37 pm
And I say one tank because nowhere do you mention other friendly tanks, except the ones which replace you.
It is an awesome piece of writing though. Even if it is total fiction, even in the game.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 05, 2015, 04:11:03 pm
Combat Report 25.104/5.A - Private Maximilian, 3rd Artillery RegimentThis one doesn't lie and tell a true story, unlike Moksburg cheap lies used for propogandaFeel free to give suggestions if the commander or the private's names should be changed. I'm not particularly proud of them but I can't think of anything better.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 05, 2015, 04:11:19 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 05, 2015, 04:11:43 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 05, 2015, 04:12:29 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 05, 2015, 04:21:14 pm
Post by: andrea on August 05, 2015, 04:26:20 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 05, 2015, 04:30:11 pm
Still don't likely as the enemy isn't represented as a threat. Might as well been shooting at cardboard cut outs.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 05, 2015, 04:30:56 pm
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 11:17:29 pm
The year is 1924. Moskurg's Breaker makes its debut and starts beating the shit out of it. Arstotzka wants to make sure Moskurg can't produce any more so they send a spy to blow up their production facility.
1925. Moskurg's Breakers continue to decimate Arstotzka's lines without issue. They take the Desert and have started to attack the Plains. Now the Breakers cease production after a full year of killing Arstotzkans. Two years if you also count 1924.
The problem is that espionage can't be used as a reactive action due to the time before its effects take place. I'm not saying it should go back to the old system where espionage actions happen in "real time", I'm just saying their effects should take place at the start of the battle phase rather than the end of it.
Post by: notquitethere on August 05, 2015, 11:20:43 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 05, 2015, 11:23:40 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 05, 2015, 11:36:29 pm
Post by: Andres on August 05, 2015, 11:39:04 pm
I don't think we should never be able to undertake espionage actions that has a real-time effect, at all.Same. I'm just saying it should happen at the start of the battle phase rather than at the end of it.
Post by: evilcherry on August 05, 2015, 11:42:48 pm
By non-realtime actions, that means only actions that do not care whether its done before or after the battle phase, or generally speaking time-insensitive can be done.I don't think we should never be able to undertake espionage actions that has a real-time effect, at all.Same. I'm just saying it should happen at the start of the battle phase rather than at the end of it.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 12:18:31 am
Then what's the point of sabotaging enemy production when it's not done in a strategically timely manner?By non-realtime actions, that means only actions that do not care whether its done before or after the battle phase, or generally speaking time-insensitive can be done.I don't think we should never be able to undertake espionage actions that has a real-time effect, at all.Same. I'm just saying it should happen at the start of the battle phase rather than at the end of it.
Post by: Sensei on August 06, 2015, 05:02:29 am
Successful sabotage happens at the start of a battle phase, and affects production of equipment that year. I roll for espionage actions at the start of battle phases, even if I sometimes write them in at the end. So it has always been. You guys can probably guess I don't do thorough proofreading, but it's not like I don't plan stuff out like spies' actions affecting the battle phase in which they take place.Then what's the point of sabotaging enemy production when it's not done in a strategically timely manner?By non-realtime actions, that means only actions that do not care whether its done before or after the battle phase, or generally speaking time-insensitive can be done.I don't think we should never be able to undertake espionage actions that has a real-time effect, at all.Same. I'm just saying it should happen at the start of the battle phase rather than at the end of it.
The Prohibition
Moskurg chose to sell booze to ships from the United States, Arstotzka did not. Moskurg earns an Expense Credit. American leaders publicly chastise Moskurg for being a source of smuggled liquor.
War Heroes
On Arstotzka's side, we have the Unknown Soldier, and Commander Emilovich. On Moskurg's side, we have Zahira 'Samir' Kader. The Unknown Soldier isn't out of character as a war hero, but unfortunately is no longer able to provide material assistance on the battlefield. Out of the two remaining heroes, Emilovich the tactician is, I think, the greatest. Arstotzka will get a bonus to artillery effectiveness this year (sorry, I'm not making it affect everybody even though he's a commander). Samir was discharged from the Moskurg military, High Command states that if she is allowed to keep fighting, every woman will want to join the military, and then... well, women aren't allowed to hold public office, so that proves that they obviously aren't worthy of military positions either. Something bad will happen.
Rebel Activity
Multiple Moskurg mines are bombed this year. Moskurg will have a -1 Ore penalty next turn. There are fliers and posters in every alley, despite the work of Civil Cleaning officers to tear them down and burn them. Sometimes recruiting rallies are interrupted by gunshots.
Frost Giants
There is a fell wind in the air.
1926 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 06, 2015, 05:02:56 am
With the introduction of cheap fuel injection, Arstotzka's AS-HF-24 fighter becomes more common. Heavily armed and fast, this replaces AS-DB-HF-23's with empty payloads in the Arstotzkan escort role. On the ground, Moskurg replaces their pintle-mounted Brumbys with the new M3 Sorraia, which pumps out more lead with better grouping. While Arstotzka is still the only one with flak, this helps Moskurg AA capabilities a bit. In terms of dogfights, though, Arstotzka retains an advantage.
In the jungle, Moskurg soldiers are armed with Cascades, MK-47's and M3 Sorraias at the squad level. Few Moskurg soldiers choose the humble M1 Service Rifle when given the choice of these loud fast weapons, but most officers make sure they have at least one service rifle in their squad- from a standing position, none of Moskurg's automatic weapons can be used accurately beyond short range. The Sorraia and the Cascade are by far the most popular, with the MK-47 being seen as a bit of an awkward middle child for squads that need ranged automatic support and need to move quickly. Moskurg soldiers lack camouflage, which is a liability, but the frequency of automatic weapons effective at close and medium range means they tend to mow Arstotzkan soldiers down. This doesn't help them against the new AS-T25 which has taken to the jungle roads, though. The Rhino Recoilless Rifle can be used to stop a T25, but it MUST be used at close range, from the side, and it must hit the armor square. Arstotzkan infantry similarly have difficult engaging T2 Breakers with their AS-1911 mortars, and record rare kills this way. Attempts at using piles of antipersonnel mines to disable tanks are proven largely impractical (personnel mines do most of their damage with shrapnel anyway). Armor against armor fights become important for control of roads and the easy movement of troops. These fights occur at close to medium range, and they are decisive and deadly. Both tanks are capable of penetrating the other's armor at these ranges. Though Arstotzka's DT25 AP rounds are more prone to getting a kill with a glancing blow, Breaker cannons are mounted on turrets with turn quickly and with relative precision. In the jungle, the two tanks are about equal. Arstotzka also makes prolific use of landmines in defensive positions. Once landmines are laid somewhere in the jungle that tanks cannot easily access, no soldier can safely walk in that area again. Arstotzka causes casualties with this and forces engagements out to medium range, but there are still many close range fights, where Moskurg's MK-47's (a weapon that can sort of be used at close and medium range) and Cascades give them an advantage. The Moskurg army just scrapes more ground under their control (Moskurg 3/4).
In the mountains, Moskurg adopts tactics where two soldiers use M3 Sorraias, or work together to keep a tripod-mounted M3 firing continuously, and aim covering fire at Arstotzkan troops so that a third soldier can take careful fire with an M1 service rifle. They also make some use of their stolen AS-1911 mortar copies, where they don't have direct sight to use a Rhino. The Cascade isn't all that useful in the mountains, it is very portable but requires close range to be effective. The M3 Sorraia is more accurate and spews more bullets for covering fire than the AS-1924, giving Moskurg a small advantage in that area. Arstotzkan troops continue to inflict high casualties by using their camo, flares, and similar tools to give them the jump on Moskurg troops. Ultimately, both sides' service rifles, light machine guns, and man-portable anti infantry explosives are pretty comparable. Arstotzka has camouflage and patient soldiers to take advantage of it. However, where Arstotzkan soldiers encounter Moskurg mining roads with T2 Breakers, they don't have a good means of taking them down. Arstotzka doesn't gain the last part of the mountains (Arstotzka 3/4) but is immediately threatening Moskurg mines. They're close enough to watch them explode when the rebels sabotage them.
In the plains, Arstotzka deploys a lot of tracked armor, both their AS-T25's and their AS-MAT26-50's. Engagements between main battle tanks are very important this year. Battles between two tanks often go to the better pilot, but Arstotzka has a few things to their advantage. The T25 has slightly more range, and moves faster, as well as having well-angled front armor, tough that doesn't apply to its turret. Most of all, its cannon is loaded with armor-piercing rounds. A T25 can typically penetrate a Breaker's armor at long range, whereas the Breaker has to get in closer. The T2 Breaker has its electrically-powered turret which helps in tracking targets which move quickly, but it takes a very good shot to penetrate an AS-T25 at the range a T25 gunner will start taking confident shots against a Breaker. The AS-MAT26-50 is mostly used defensively, and with an accurate long-barreled gun and AP rounds, it will reliably destroy Breakers- being cheap and usually outnumbering Breakers helps too. The B2 Destroyer artillery continues to be a threat, but this year commander Emilovich thinks of a gutsy tactic to sneak AS-1912 guns in range of B2 positions, towing them quickly behind MV21's at top speed, then firing from their flank. It might not work again next year, but this year it gives Arstotzka artillery dominance. Luckily, thanks to all of this, Moskurg doesn't get to bring their Cascade-armed stormtroopers into the trenches. Oh yeah, and Arstotzka successfully bombs more stuff than Moskurg does. Arstotzka gains a piece of desert (Arstotzka 1/4, Moskurg 3/4).
For once, Agent Promised Crucible and Agent Sandworm aren't at each other's throats, dropping secret plans left and right. Sandworm takes home the plans to the AS-T25 tank, while Promised Crucible borrows the plans to the Model 3 Radio without asking. Both of these are pretty complicated and might require some extra work to replicate.
Post by: evilcherry on August 06, 2015, 05:22:59 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 05:34:47 am
Not impressed. Someone was blatantly Metagaming (I do read AS threads but never base decisions on it), and we still have no idea whether the spy credit was used or not.Not really? I mean, both descisions were anti tank , and you developped the tank last turn. No metagaming there.
I mean, one of you guys actually showed up in our thread.
And you know the spycredit was used. We did 2 spy actions in 1924. (Attempted theft and rebel investigation)
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 05:46:28 am
anyway, our decisions were taken without the unlawful infrmation ( our revision was so obvious that nothing could have changed it). Still, we apologize and you will notice we properly dealt with the offender.
And one of you still showed up in our thread, so we can call it even? :P
Oh, question to Sensei. Which version of the tank did they steal? last year's prototype or this year's operative model?
Post by: Sensei on August 06, 2015, 05:52:26 am
I deem the Arstotzkan design decisions to be not made based on total metagaming, most of that was stuff they wanted to do for a while anyway. Already, the fell wind of the ice giants blows in the tundra, there is no need for further denunciation.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 06:05:36 am
Anyway, a bit more nagging. I wanted to see just how much that Moskurgian ore shortage screwed up their forces, but then I noticed that multiple units have no noted ore requirement.
Brumby is one example.
Post by: evilcherry on August 06, 2015, 06:08:54 am
Should watch out for dust devils in the desert as well.
Anyway, a bit more nagging. I wanted to see just how much that Moskurgian ore shortage screwed up their forces, but then I noticed that multiple units have no noted ore requirement.
Brumby is one example.
Considering this:
Dos an MG-34 count? :P. they got a pretty good GPMG coming this turn, so that might give us some problems
Clearly he explicitly considered his position on our not-yet-deployed new MP, unlike us who just peek and laugh at your puny attempts at actually metagaming.
Post by: Devastator on August 06, 2015, 06:13:08 am
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 06:15:59 am
That said, GM rules our decision was unaffected. And you should really quote the part in which we call him on the metagaming. Really, it is much better when taken in the wider context.
@Sensei: yes, I am mad at them for getting our fuel injection >:(
Post by: Devastator on August 06, 2015, 06:18:51 am
@Sensei: yes, I am mad at them for getting our fuel injection >:(
/me gets out the worlds tiniest violin to the guy up three resources, two permanent.
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 06:21:38 am
That doesn't mean I can't be annoyed at you stealing our tech the same turn we develope it. We got some of your tech as well, at least.
Post by: tryrar on August 06, 2015, 06:22:53 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 06:54:10 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Devastator on August 06, 2015, 06:58:27 am
1924: pushes AP
1925: doesn't.
1926: pushes AP
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 07:04:29 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In the same post, I identified another enemy flaw. Guess what was the second and third fix now priority on that list. Flak and flare respectively.
Post by: Taricus on August 06, 2015, 07:06:12 am
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 07:06:15 am
and flak and flares could as well be inspired by our own developement of those same.
suspicious? maybe a little. But not a proof.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 07:09:55 am
Quote
ebbor, your third quote earlier refers to OUR tank having AP shells.
Yup I know. I just wanted to note AP was a real concern.
Quote
suspicious? maybe a little. But not a proof.
Off course not. But which is worse, suspicion that metagaming was used for advantage, or the knowledge that metagaming was used, but not to any advantage. I mean, it's no secret that Moskurg reads our thread, they admitted it themselves repeatedly. Thus the relevation that one of us read their thread should be of no importance.
Dropping the issue now, but I just wanted to show that Moskurg aren't saints either.
Post by: Devastator on August 06, 2015, 07:25:38 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 06, 2015, 07:34:49 am
Mind you, ebbor, courts deal with facts, not hearsay.Quoteebbor, your third quote earlier refers to OUR tank having AP shells.
Yup I know. I just wanted to note AP was a real concern.Quotesuspicious? maybe a little. But not a proof.
Off course not. But which is worse, suspicion that metagaming was used for advantage, or the knowledge that metagaming was used, but not to any advantage. I mean, it's no secret that Moskurg reads our thread, they admitted it themselves repeatedly. Thus the relevation that one of us read their thread should be of no importance.
Dropping the issue now, but I just wanted to show that Moskurg aren't saints either.
If Arstotzka wanted some kind of integrity they should plead guilty to the league of nations on this front, and lets see how much they are going to cap your armed forces to.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 07:36:26 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 07:58:05 am
Spoiler: Answer to inquery (click to show/hide)
I don't know why you're so hung up about this. Let's not forget one of your players actually accidentally posted in our thread.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 08:03:31 am
Post by: tryrar on August 06, 2015, 08:08:00 am
That's enough, ebbor. Arguing about this further gets us nowhere. If it happens again feel free but at the moment there's no point.
Agreed. Let's just all drop it.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 06, 2015, 08:15:56 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 06, 2015, 08:34:32 am
sensei?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 08:41:07 am
It sounds like an overly complex solution to a problem which doesn't exist. And one likely to kill of or damage the game, or at the very least be a tremendous hassle for anyone who wants to join.
Besides, we should have access to the other teams thread for espionage purposes. Or how else did you know to steal our new and advanced fuel injection, or all those espionage actions you inflicted on us?
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 08:46:43 am
Just like when we ordered to sabotage their trains and instead ended up sabotaging their newly designed ones instead of the old ones.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 08:52:24 am
I don't generally mind you guys reading the other thread, as long as you're not blatantly making non-espionage decisions based on enemy equipment that hasn't seen the field yet. It's part of the fun reading all the shenanigans on both teams, and I occasionally dispense rules clarifications in only one thread.Espionage allows reading the other thread.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 06, 2015, 08:52:35 am
but yeah, the qt won't retroactively prevent past salt, it'll prevent future salt
and it's not like you can't base espionage actions off of the state of the army in battle report
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 06, 2015, 09:04:12 am
The correct way to prevent future and past salt is to look back at what happened, and realize you're making a fuzz about nothing, and being hypocritical at the same time (which I will freely admit includes me as well).
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 06, 2015, 09:23:15 am
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2015, 09:30:11 am
2) could everyone drop it? nothing bad happened, a problem was highlighted and I am sure all parties will behave better now. There is no need to continue.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 09:52:26 am
2) could everyone drop it? nothing bad happened, a problem was highlighted and I am sure all parties will behave better now. There is no need to continue.+1
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 06:03:10 pm
Post by: Parsely on August 06, 2015, 08:01:02 pm
Post by: heydude6 on August 06, 2015, 08:02:12 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 06, 2015, 08:03:19 pm
Post by: Parsely on August 06, 2015, 08:04:06 pm
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 08:05:43 pm
Qutoed so you can't delete it, Moskurgian.Optics. Periscopes and magnifying telescopes for tanks to improve awareness, accuracy, time to fire, and range, as well as allowing for indirect fire. Infantry scopes for rifles to allow for accurate long range engagement. Magnifying crosshair lenses for pilots to allow for better long range shooting and bombing.Quoted so you can't delete it Arztoskan.
I don't even know why would you delete it though.
Post by: Parsely on August 06, 2015, 08:07:30 pm
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 08:23:27 pm
Though, I wanted to congratulate whole Moskurgian Bureau Of Whatever, whatever you call your little techno-shaman council for being ill-informed, ill-prepared, ill-equipped, ill-fated, with ill communication, ill basics (who uses Imperial scales anymore, I mean come on), ill ideas, and on being generally ill. This could be easily fixed with some paperworkand proper civilization, of course after we finally decide to conquer the worst of the island, the one you're calling your home. Also you seem to be taking long time with your designs.
Post by: Iituem on August 06, 2015, 08:25:40 pm
Not yet.
Though, I wanted to congratulate whole Moskurgian Bureau Of Whatever, whatever you call your little techno-shaman council for being ill-informed, ill-prepared, ill-equipped, ill-fated, with ill communication, ill basics (who uses Imperial scales anymore, I mean come on), ill ideas, and on being generally ill. This could be easily fixed with some paperworkand proper civilization, of course after we finally decide to conquer the worst of the island, the one you're calling your home. Also you seem to be taking long time with your designs.
One feels one can understand how this war started.
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 08:28:16 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 06, 2015, 08:30:56 pm
Not yet.We can divide by three cleanly, unlike you who need to resort to recurring decimals.
Though, I wanted to congratulate whole Moskurgian Bureau Of Whatever, whatever you call your little techno-shaman council for being ill-informed, ill-prepared, ill-equipped, ill-fated, with ill communication, ill basics (who uses Imperial scales anymore, I mean come on), ill ideas, and on being generally ill. This could be easily fixed with some paperworkand proper civilization, of course after we finally decide to conquer the worst of the island, the one you're calling your home. Also you seem to be taking long time with your designs.
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 08:35:54 pm
We can divide by three cleanly, unlike you who need to resort to recurring decimals.Which just singalizes that you have an aversion to math that is more complicated than division. Using decimals allow us for greater freedom in basically all measurement.
Post by: evilcherry on August 06, 2015, 08:39:58 pm
In decimal form, Write all the digits, of how you describe one third of a meter.We can divide by three cleanly, unlike you who need to resort to recurring decimals.Which just singalizes that you have an aversion to math that is more complicated than division. Using decimals allow us for greater freedom in basically all measurement.
For reference, one third of a yard is a foot.
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 09:10:33 pm
In decimal form, Write all the digits, of how you describe one third of a meter.0.(3)m. Cheers.
For reference, one third of a yard is a foot.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 09:40:09 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 06, 2015, 09:50:10 pm
I think we are waiting on Moskurg.
Post by: Playergamer on August 06, 2015, 09:52:03 pm
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 09:52:51 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 06, 2015, 10:06:17 pm
Also, definitely no hidden QT. Arms Race is a spectator sport.
Post by: Andres on August 06, 2015, 11:23:47 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 07, 2015, 01:26:47 am
So yeah, probably no turn tonight and tomorrow.
Post by: Andres on August 07, 2015, 01:35:45 am
Post by: Sensei on August 07, 2015, 02:13:09 am
Post by: Andres on August 07, 2015, 02:16:20 am
Thought this meant we get one radio and we need to work to replicate it. My bad.
Post by: Kot on August 07, 2015, 06:46:04 pm
Consider this a threat, Moskurgians.
Post by: Parsely on August 07, 2015, 07:51:59 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 07, 2015, 08:01:39 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2015, 12:54:51 am
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 12:58:20 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 08, 2015, 01:31:26 am
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 01:37:19 am
That it pretty amazing. You should post it in the OOC thread.This is the OOC thread.
Post by: Sheb on August 08, 2015, 01:43:46 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2015, 03:26:47 am
Not really. You see, it's impossible for our propeller planes to fly in space, so Arstotzka's engineers first had to figure out how to convert void into atmosphere. (Something we are able to do because we're smarter than you.) So you see, because the moon is part of Earth's atmosphere now, we are not dropping the tigers from orbit, but merely from within Earth's atmosphere.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Please ignore the giant flaming sphere that is the moon crashing down into the earth. That is just Moksburg propaganda. And the end of all life on earth but whatever.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 03:47:03 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 08, 2015, 04:02:37 am
Not really. You see, it's impossible for our propeller planes to fly in space, so Arstotzka's engineers first had to figure out how to convert void into atmosphere. (Something we are able to do because we're smarter than you.) So you see, because the moon is part of Earth's atmosphere now, we are not dropping the tigers from orbit, but merely from within Earth's atmosphere.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Please ignore the giant flaming sphere that is the moon crashing down into the earth. That is just Moksburg propaganda. And the end of all life on earth but whatever.
Glory to Arstotzka.
arstotzkan ministry of war: we made majora's mask reality, but here focus on our propaganda tigers
reported to league of nations
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 04:14:56 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on August 08, 2015, 04:33:58 am
Moskurg
Life has improved since 1910. Citizens live in electrically-lit homes, and ride the bus to work. The most common civilian car is based on the Struunk, with the armor and weapons removed for speed. There are no more piles of horse manure on street corners, and tire swings (made with large Tiger tires) have started to crop up around homes and schools. Many civilians have antique Horsekiller rifles, brought home from duty or purchased at surplus. Moskurg hunters consider it unsporting to hunt with anything more accurate or easy to use than a Horsekiller, in fact, although most will concede that the M1 Service Rifle is a more effective weapon against squishy Arstotzkans. Some Moskurgs purchase Cascade SMG's, for home defense. Trains travel to and from towns, and Model 1 Biplanes with the radio stripped carry mail. Moskurg has a burgeoning radio enthusiast hobby, with civilians building, maintaining and modifying crystal or vaccuum tube radios. Naturally, Moskurg has one radio station, the official Government Broadcast (in partnership with The Moskurger). Reports of a rebel radio channel are false and citizens searching for such a channel or claiming it to exist will be punished. Any citizens found involved, speaking of, or thinking about rebel activity will be punished as well. A typical alley in Moskurg streets contains two things: a lot of empty alcohol bottles, and rebel posters, often with new propaganda posters plastered over them. The most wealthy Moskurgs adorn themselves in tiger pelts and other hunting trophies, and there is war museum of Arstotzkan armored vehicles with big holes through them. Rumor has it that in the Royal Palace, the Great Leader has a trap door in front of his desk he can open at any time with a hidden lever, dropping unwanted visitors into a pit of hungry tigers.
Arstotzka
Arstotzka has seen a number of new professions since the start of the war, including a huge variety of driving and shipping jobs, and a significant cold water fishing industry. Arstotzkans prefer crab, when they can get it. Most Arstotzkans, rich and poor, own a motor vehicle, by far the most common is the M17 Motorcycle, and businesses have trucks. Racing is a popular Arstotzkan hobby, both in motorcycles and cars, where civilians experiment with super chargers and fuel injection, inspired by the military engineering department. Arstotzka is fond of parades as well, and most days of the week and least one group soldiers is making marches around the capitol streets, with a tank in tow for added awe. AS-T15's have seen a new life converted to barbecues. At night the city glows, every home is burning coal to stay warm. The streets are also populated by snow plows, a service paid for by the Arstotzkan government, and train stations bustle. Even trains used far away from war lines are armored, Arstotzkans appreciate the aesthetic. Sharpshooting is a popular Arstotzkan sport, and they hunt birds and other small, quick things. Arstotzkan shooting enthusiasts -at least, the wealthy ones in the know- line up outside factories for copies of new rifles developed by the department of engineering. Some Arstotzkans modify their AS-1909 pistols with foreign-made springs, magazines and other parts to make them more reliable. Arstotzka also has a small rocket enthusiast club, who largely work with modified mortar shells. In school, every Arstotzkan child is warned about the dangers of land mines (and tigers). Despite recent improvments in the area of camouflage, Arstotzkan propaganda always depicts soldiers fighting in scarlet-and-gold uniforms, much to the disappointment of recruits who are strictly ordered to keep the drab side of their coats showing.
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 04:41:50 am
Moskurg:
Trains
Plane-based mail delivery
A radio station and radio enthusiasts
Lever-action tiger pits
Arstotzka:
Fishing
Shipping
Most Arstotzkans owning motor vehicles
Racing enthusiasts
Barbecues
Perpetual warmth
Snow plows
Trains
Foreign arms trade
Rocket enthusiasts
Schools
I think we're winning.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 08, 2015, 04:44:05 am
our high command may even consider letting you guys live as an underclass after we finally conquer you
also, lever-action tiger pits are the greatest civilizational advancement of this millenium
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2015, 04:48:11 am
Our tanks provide both heat and food! I bet yours can't!
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 04:50:58 am
also, lever-action tiger pits are the greatest civilizational advancement of this milleniumThis basically sums up the state of Moskurgan technological development over the last 17 years.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Tiruin on August 08, 2015, 07:03:29 am
Post by: Generally me on August 08, 2015, 07:35:24 am
So let's see what practical benefits our military technologies have given to our citzens:Yes, but do you have tire swings. No you don't.
Moskurg:
Trains
Plane-based mail delivery
A radio station and radio enthusiasts
Lever-action tiger pits
Arstotzka:
Fishing
Shipping
Most Arstotzkans owning motor vehicles
Racing enthusiasts
Barbecues
Perpetual warmth
Snow plows
Trains
Foreign arms trade
Rocket enthusiasts
Schools
I think we're winning.
Moskburg: 1
Aristotzka: 0
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 07:39:53 am
Yes, but do you have tire swings. No you don't.We don't need tire swings, shooting Moskurgians is funnier.
Moskburg: 1
Aristotzka: 0
Arstotzka : 1
Moskurg : 0
Post by: andrea on August 08, 2015, 07:40:37 am
Wonderful paint job on the planes! everything looks surprisingly good for something made in paint, and you added the flag on the wings which I always wanted, but didn't have the ability to make.
@Intermission:civilian report
wow. Our civilian world is so much better than Moskurg.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 08, 2015, 08:49:01 am
Moskurg:
Trains
Plane-based mail delivery
A radio station
Radio enthusiasts
Lever-action tiger pits
electric lighting
alcohol
museums
civilian vehicle ownership
Public bus networks
local arms trade
Arstotzka:
Fishing
Shipping
Most Arstotzkans owning motor vehicles
Racing enthusiasts
Barbecues
Trains
Foreign arms trade
Rocket enthusiasts
Schools
I added a few things you missed Andres and I removed some things that Arstotzka would need in the taiga in order to actually exist (warmth and snow plows) as you would have had that before we started. Even without mentioning schools on our side i think this is slightly more accurate. Also, Moskurg is winning.
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 09:28:12 am
Moskurg:I beg you pardon, but you said something about winning?
Trains
Plane-based mail delivery
A radio station
Radio enthusiasts
Lever-action tiger pits
electric lighting
alcohol
museums
civilian vehicle ownership
Public bus ne
local arms trade
Arstotzka:
Vodka
Civilian vehicle ownership
Fishing
Shipping
Good cars
Good guns
Good people
Everyone has a car or motorbike
Racing enthusiasts
Barbecues
Racing
Vodka
Trains
Foreign arms trade
Parades
Warm houses
Rocket enthusiasts
Local arms trade
Snowmen
Schools
Vodka
Gloriouspropagandaencouragement posters
Sharpshooters
Snow plows
Gun modifications
Rockets
Rockets
Vodka
Good trade
Ships
Vodka
Post by: Kashyyk on August 08, 2015, 09:54:04 am
Post by: Sheb on August 08, 2015, 09:55:23 am
Code: (Advantages of the Respective Nations) [Select]
Arstotzka:
- Is Artotzkan
- Is not Mokburger
Mokburg:
NothingSee: We wins!
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 10:03:02 am
And by that non serious response I will assume you can't provide a serious one. Poor backwards Arstotzka...At least we don't have sand in our butts.
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2015, 11:42:19 am
Post by: Parsely on August 08, 2015, 03:07:11 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 08, 2015, 03:52:55 pm
Can someone please make Jaeger Arms Race? Cherno Alpha FTW.I'd like to, but there are 2 problems.
1) Way to many design games running around.
2) I'm already running one game, and I'm not going to do two.
Post by: QuakeIV on August 08, 2015, 04:30:48 pm
La Resistance! (https://soundcloud.com/jason-phelps-7/resistance-1927)
Huh, thats actually pretty good dude.
Post by: notquitethere on August 08, 2015, 04:35:58 pm
La Resistance! (https://soundcloud.com/jason-phelps-7/resistance-1927)By 'eck, I'm convinced.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 08, 2015, 04:44:19 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2015, 05:12:25 pm
Can someone please make Jaeger Arms Race? Cherno Alpha FTW.I'd like to, but there are 2 problems.
1) Way to many design games running around.
2) I'm already running one game, and I'm not going to do two.
That'll have to enter the queue behind my doing a Mad Max version of Towers, rebooting Pawns, rebooting Fiefdoms@War and getting around to finishing up Wight...
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 05:34:57 pm
La Resistance! (https://soundcloud.com/jason-phelps-7/resistance-1927)Sadly can't hear it, Soundcloud doesn't allow me to, proably because I have too shitty internet for all those nice scripts to work. And no option to download. D:
Anyway...
(http://i.imgbox.com/qA2FJU03.png)
Glorious Arstotzkan all-volunteer elite unit called Rednecks (for their red scarfs they wear around their necks) leaves the capital to fight dirty Moskurgans!
I know it sucks, has bad shading (which I prolly missed on some things), bad perspective, their uniforms make no sense (but hey, I included glorious elbow pockets that nobody asked for) but I kinda like it.
Bonus points for the first person who knows.
Post by: Iituem on August 08, 2015, 05:40:41 pm
Moskurg radio interruptions might be classical music from now on, heh.
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 05:46:31 pm
Also, Holy Shit, all this stuff makes me wish this was like an game (as in, vidya) because there is so much potential.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 08, 2015, 05:47:59 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 08, 2015, 05:49:23 pm
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 05:51:28 pm
Videogame won't work, I believe. Choice is what's important here.You could basically think of everything that's reasonable and a bunch of unreasonable ideas (after all, we haven't used anything that isin't a thing in real world) and present them as very customizable choices.
Could be a game that takes place in Forenia, not an arms race game. Maybe a FPS or something, with a campaign about fighting in the war over the years.With this game serving as background, hue. All our good and bad decisions, forever remembered in an FPS. Just think of the GLORY!
GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2015, 06:02:21 pm
(http://i.imgbox.com/qA2FJU03.png)The thing about our modern uniforms (the ones with the elbow pockets) is that they come with terrain patterns like this (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/British_Armed_Forces_Multi_Terrain_Pattern_camouflage.jpg) which is why our new camo was so effective. It's still a really cool (hehe) picture.
Post by: Kot on August 08, 2015, 06:15:21 pm
I know, I know, I saw it, but I couldn't be really bothered to do patterns because they would be a bitch to do really, and I didin't want to spend more than two hours on it. After all, it's just a quick thing made in Paint(.net).(http://i.imgbox.com/qA2FJU03.png)The thing about our modern uniforms (the ones with the elbow pockets) is that they come with terrain patterns like this (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/British_Armed_Forces_Multi_Terrain_Pattern_camouflage.jpg) which is why our new camo was so effective. It's still a really cool (hehe) picture.
Post by: Parsely on August 08, 2015, 07:58:53 pm
Holy crumbs Kot you rock. Do you have a DA account I could follow?La Resistance! (https://soundcloud.com/jason-phelps-7/resistance-1927)Sadly can't hear it, Soundcloud doesn't allow me to, proably because I have too shitty internet for all those nice scripts to work. And no option to download. D:
Anyway...
(http://i.imgbox.com/qA2FJU03.png)
Glorious Arstotzkan all-volunteer elite unit called Rednecks (for their red scarfs they wear around their necks) leaves the capital to fight dirty Moskurgans!
I know it sucks, has bad shading (which I prolly missed on some things), bad perspective, their uniforms make no sense (but hey, I included glorious elbow pockets that nobody asked for) but I kinda like it.
Bonus points for the first person who knows.
Post by: Sensei on August 09, 2015, 06:04:37 am
1927 Battle Report
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 09, 2015, 06:05:20 am
This year, Moskurg developed their new AP and APHE antitank rounds, to give their Smashers some much need extra oomph (as is the official term in Moskurg military doctrine). The Moskurg army also adopted proper camouflage uniforms, as well as camo paint for their vehicles, with soldiers and ground vehicles matching their environment and planes being given pale bottom sides. Moskurg Officers, however, retain their flashy silver capes. Arstotzka developted the AS-G27 line of hand grenades, which come in fragmentation, incendiary, and smoke variants. Furthermore, both sides now have a magnetic shaped-charge explosive to be attached directly to enemy tanks, the Moskurg one being it own item without a colorful name and the Arstotzkan one being the AS-G27AT. Arstotzka also "liberated" the IP-R27, a radio which is exactly the same as the Model 3 Radio, but patented.
Both nations are spending their expense credits on their main battle tanks (the AS-T25 and the T2 Breaker) this turn, bringing them from Very Expensive to Expensive. However, Moskurg is suffering from an ore shortage due to rebel attacks. With only 1 ore and 2 oil, Moskurg factories are crippled, and everyone is melting the brass buttons off of their clothes just to make bullet casings. The MK-47 and M3 Sorraia are both now Expensive, as is the M1 Stallion. The Rhino becomes expensive as well, although its deployment was already somewhat limited due to its specialized nature. Luckily, the T2 Breaker remains Very Expensive, with a deficit of 4 resources.
The war in the air hasn't changed much since 1926, except that a shortage of M1 Stallions (and their ammo). This mainly reduces Moskurg's anti-air capabilities. Airborne M1 Stallions, such as those equipped on the M3 Wasp, are often loaded with AP rounds for the benefit of improved performance against ground armor, as well as a small gain in damage against Arstotzka's aircraft (which are not armored in the first place). Both nations use the doctrine of using fighters to escort bombers to their targets. Overall, Arstotzka has better performance in air-to-air, ground-to-air, and slightly better air-to-ground. Some Arstotzkan aircraft are fitted with the IP-R27 radio, which helps them coordinate with ground forces to choose the most effective targets, as Moskurg has been doing for a while.
Arstotzkan agent Promised Crucible worked closely with the engineering department to develop a code language for use in radio communication, since now both nations have access to radios. This code language includes a simple cypher for spelling out messages, as well as code phrases for common commands- for example "Moksburgers are weak!" is an order to attack, and "Moksburgers are smelly!" is an order to retreat. Arstotzkan officers also listen to Moskurg radio communications, getting insight on the numbers and locations of their troops.
In the desert and plains, 1927 will be remembered as a year of more intense armored warfare than any before it. Expensive main battle tanks are the focal point of most battles. Smoke and explosions are constant in the battlefield and infantry crouch down behind burning, wrecked tanks. Moskurg Breaker cannons are now equipped with effective APHE rounds, capable of piercing armor at a slightly greater distance and more oblique angle than the DT-50 cannon. This gains T2 Breakers a small advantage over the AS-T25. However, Arstotzka has an advantage in other areas- they have foreknowledge of Moskurg movements with their radios, especially favoring the tactic of scrambling like mad once Moskurg B2 Destroyer gunners report having good aim on Arstotzkan columns. Arstotzkans get more air-to-ground kills, and their MAT26 tank destroyers grant them some advantage as well, their cannons are slightly more accurate than the Breaker cannons as range and get a lot of kills, despite not usually being the main part of an offensive. When they are, they need to be escorted closely by motorcycles, as Moskurg troops will attempt to ride around their flanks and shoot the crew with Cascade SMGs. The Cascade is becoming fairly popular among cavalry, it's short, easy to fire from horseback and automatic. Both nations' tanks have a coaxial machine gun and a gunner, but with enough suppressing fire on the gunner they can have a hard time stopping cavalry or motorcyclists from planting magnetic shaped charges. These are effective, but they require a lot of bravado and a lot of infantry casualties, they might have a bigger effect if tanks were Very Expensive. Overall, Arstotzka has an advantage despite Moskurg's better ammunition. Arstotzka gains more desert (2/4). Moskurg's outlying cities may soon become battlefields.
In the mountains, Moskurg non-officers benefit from camouflage, but also miss the glut of cheap M3 Sorraia machine guns they had last year. The M3 still mostly replaces the Brumby, and is a very effective weapon, but Arstotzka benefits somewhat from being able to deploy multiple AS-1924's per squad, when appropriate. Hand grenades see a bit of use here, and benefit Arstotzkans who sneak up on Moskurg camps. The veteran Nosin-Magant and M1 Service Rifle still see major use here, as does the middle-ground AS-F14. The AS-1911 mortar sees use, as does the Rhino, but both sides have become more mobile due to the presence of these weapons. In a few instances, T2 Breakers supporting Moskurg defense are destroyed by sneaky Arstotzkan officers with AS-G27AT charges. However, Arstotzka's lack of armor support and infantry portable anti armor weapons, and mostly comparable equipment otherwise, means that Moskurg holds their mines for another year. (Arstotzka 3/4, Moskurg 1/4).
In the jungle, Moskurg troops are now camouflaged (except for officers), but are hurt by the new expense of their mid-range automatic weapons. The Cascade continues to see enormous use here, and Moskurg troops go to a lot of effort trying to get into close range engagements with Arstotzkans so they can benefit from it. With many Arstotzkan troops wielding AS-1924s, AS-F14s, and the occasional Nosin in the hands of a skilled shooter, Arstotzka dominates at mid range. Arstotzka's new anti-infantry fragmentation AS-G27 is usually an Arstotzkan soldier's answer to an unwanted close encounter with Moskurg troops, and is also used to attack any troops taking cover in emplacements, ditches or roadblocks. Combined with its incendiary variant, the AS-G27 grenade is a popular weapon. Both sides see some use of their shaped charges, as its the most portable thing an infantryman can carry which will reliably destroy a tank. Arsotzkan soldiers like to joke, "Throw the ball in the gunner's hatch, win a prize!" Armor against armor, both factions are even more equal now that Moskurg has AP/APHE rounds. Arstotzka gains ground in the jungle. (Arstotzka 2/4)
Moskurg agent Sandworm spends most of the year ingratiating herself into the rebel organization in the capitol. She learns that the rebels use guns, explosives, and fliers which come on boats from outside of Forenia- civilian vessels from various American countries, particularly Panama. Moskurg adopts a policy of searching incoming ships and arresting their crew if they have any rebel material. A number of important rebel figures are arrested and summarily executed. There are still some loyal to the rebels, but they have no resources and little leadership, for now.
You may now begin designing for 1928.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 09, 2015, 06:52:44 am
This is incredibly interesting, I wonder if I looked enough I would find a pattern among the designs, like America's 'Quantity over Quality' approach.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 09, 2015, 07:02:40 am
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 07:05:12 am
Did Moskurg's agent not get to act at the beginning of the year, unlike Arstotzka?The mines were already destroyed by rebels last year. Regardless of whether your agent succeeded or not this year (she did), you'd still have a resource deficit.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2015, 07:11:32 am
Wow, PTW.
This is incredibly interesting, I wonder if I looked enough I would find a pattern among the designs, like America's 'Quantity over Quality' approach.
We gave every soldier a motorcycle!
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Kashyyk on August 09, 2015, 07:13:00 am
I see now. Fair enough. Still upset with the rest of Moskurg for letting the rebels stick around for so long.
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 07:15:26 am
Post by: Kot on August 09, 2015, 07:18:01 am
Nope, I don't do art (yeah, like most people on DA do "art"), it just happens.Holy crumbs Kot you rock. Do you have a DA account I could follow?La Resistance! (https://soundcloud.com/jason-phelps-7/resistance-1927)Sadly can't hear it, Soundcloud doesn't allow me to, proably because I have too shitty internet for all those nice scripts to work. And no option to download. D:
Anyway...
(http://i.imgbox.com/qA2FJU03.png)
Glorious Arstotzkan all-volunteer elite unit called Rednecks (for their red scarfs they wear around their necks) leaves the capital to fight dirty Moskurgans!
I know it sucks, has bad shading (which I prolly missed on some things), bad perspective, their uniforms make no sense (but hey, I included glorious elbow pockets that nobody asked for) but I kinda like it.
Bonus points for the first person who knows.
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 07:22:23 am
Wow, PTW.
This is incredibly interesting, I wonder if I looked enough I would find a pattern among the designs, like America's 'Quantity over Quality' approach.
Well, we (Arstotzka) started with a Quantity focus, mostly on relatively small improvement that we could deploy across all theaters. Moksburg started with a Size focus, making large, expensive equipment. Since then, the difference are less marked, a faction of designer favoring more advanced, complex design gained prominence in Arstotzka, giving us stuff like the AT-25 that we can barely afford even with the plains, while Moksburg finally realized the benefits of large amount of lighter weapons with stuff like the Brumby.
Post by: tryrar on August 09, 2015, 07:25:56 am
Wow, PTW.
This is incredibly interesting, I wonder if I looked enough I would find a pattern among the designs, like America's 'Quantity over Quality' approach.
Well, we (Arstotzka) started with a Quantity focus, mostly on relatively small improvement that we could deploy across all theaters. Moksburg started with a Size focus, making large, expensive equipment. Since then, the difference are less marked, a faction of designer favoring more advanced, complex design gained prominence in Arstotzka, giving us stuff like the AT-25 that we can barely afford even with the plains, while Moksburg finally realized the benefits of large amount of lighter weapons with stuff like the Brumby.
To be fair, the tank was only so expensive because we got shitty rolls on cheapening a couple techs we were hoping to cheapen. Once we iron out once and for all the costs associated with the engine, it'll only be merely Expensive(and for a tank, that's all you can really ask for, or need for that matter. Don't need a tank for every soldier!)
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 07:27:00 am
Both nations are spending their expense credits on their main battle tanks (the AS-T25 and the T2 Breaker) this turn, bringing them from Very Expensive to Expensive. However, Moskurg is suffering from an ore shortage due to rebel attacks. With only 1 ore and 2 oil, Moskurg factories are crippled, and everyone is melting the brass buttons off of their clothes just to make bullet casings. Luckily, the T2 Breaker remains Very Expensive, with a deficit of 4 resources.
So was the T2 Expensive or Very Expensive?
Post by: Kashyyk on August 09, 2015, 07:28:20 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2015, 07:30:14 am
Wow, PTW.
This is incredibly interesting, I wonder if I looked enough I would find a pattern among the designs, like America's 'Quantity over Quality' approach.
Well, we (Arstotzka) started with a Quantity focus, mostly on relatively small improvement that we could deploy across all theaters. Moksburg started with a Size focus, making large, expensive equipment. Since then, the difference are less marked, a faction of designer favoring more advanced, complex design gained prominence in Arstotzka, giving us stuff like the AT-25 that we can barely afford even with the plains, while Moksburg finally realized the benefits of large amount of lighter weapons with stuff like the Brumby.
To be fair, the tank was only so expensive because we got shitty rolls on cheapening a couple techs we were hoping to cheapen. Once we iron out once and for all the costs associated with the engine, it'll only be merely Expensive(and for a tank, that's all you can really ask for, or need for that matter. Don't need a tank for every soldier!)
#1 Stop discussing our totally secret plans!
#2 Yes, we need a tank for every soldier!
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 07:32:43 am
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 07:36:42 am
So if the Breaker was more expensive than our tanks, why isnt that mentioned in the battle report?
Also, in the tech, Belt-Fed MG is listed as expensive for Moksburg, while I guess it should be Cheap since their Sorraia isnt Expensive.
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 07:38:28 am
So if the Breaker was more expensive than our tanks, why isnt that mentioned in the battle report?Both the Breaker and the T25 are Very Expensive. This turn, both Moskurg and Arstotzka used their Expense credits to make their tanks cheaper. Both the Breaker and the T25 were Expensive this turn.
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 07:43:02 am
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 07:44:36 am
Yeah, but a bit later, Sensei mention that the Ore shortage makes the Breaker Very Expensive again.He said that the Breaker continued to be base Very Expensive. With the Expense credit, it was brought down to Expensive.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 09, 2015, 07:47:13 am
Cheap is always better than expensive.
Not always. Moskurg's Rhino and our artillery didn't benefit from their cheapness, as you don't want hundreds of soldiers using those.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 09, 2015, 07:52:21 am
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 07:53:29 am
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2015, 07:55:59 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 09, 2015, 07:58:18 am
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 08:07:04 am
Post by: Donuts on August 09, 2015, 10:54:51 am
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2015, 10:58:56 am
Post by: Parsely on August 09, 2015, 12:23:42 pm
Nope, I don't do art (yeah, like most people on DA do "art"), it just happens.Uh, that is art.
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2015, 10:17:10 pm
Intermission: 1927 Civilian ReportThis is actually kind of flattering. It's like saying "Arstotzka's vehicles are so good, we had to bring out the biggest and baddest cannons we had to take them down."
Moskurg
there is war museum of Arstotzkan armored vehicles with big holes through them.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Parsely on August 10, 2015, 12:13:53 am
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 12:41:17 am
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 01:13:00 am
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 01:26:33 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 05:47:09 am
Post by: Parsely on August 10, 2015, 05:54:40 am
So instead of cannons, you had to expend days worth of ammunition to kill them instead.The crews sat very still for us while we let the rookies practice their riflery.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 06:08:46 am
Well of course the crews sat still. You're not exactly supposed to be running when you're in a car. But please tell me how you got all the horse blood off those cars you captured. Every time we send them out to fight your cavalry we spend hours just scraping off the blood and guts.So instead of cannons, you had to expend days worth of ammunition to kill them instead.The crews sat very still for us while we let the rookies practice their riflery.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 02:59:17 pm
If they involve vehicles of either side, give me a better description of each, except if it's obvious (motorcycles).
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 03:01:37 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 03:07:49 pm
Tons of tanks fighting each others?Maybe. I wanted to do that (including glorious motorbike charges and less glorious cavalry dying to machinegun fire), but the fact I have little idea how each of tanks looks, thanks to their descriptions("exit hatch in towards the mach of the tank"? "cowled treads" What?), I could base them on existing ones though.
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 03:15:06 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 03:18:47 pm
If you want to make some older tech, the T15 would be pretty cool.Yes.
Yes this.
I even have an idea how to do it.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 10, 2015, 03:24:08 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 03:26:09 pm
Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-grXignrvM (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 04:51:55 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 04:53:38 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 05:17:25 pm
You could always make it more boxy.Nah, I'll just make a general shape in some easy modelling software (but I have to get one first, and that is quite fucking hard considering the state of my internet).
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 05:19:32 pm
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Char_St_Chamond_tank.jpg)
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 05:25:07 pm
Why not base it on a picture?Not the right shape, converting it will be too hard. I would do it usually (even considered it for a while) but nah, I tried to get a good image of armored locomotive but noone have the heretic sloped half-cylinder, especially not at the end. Generally, the designs that appear around are either so weird that there is nothing like that or not very descriptive. I have found good models for Moskurgian heavy tank though, I think.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Char_St_Chamond_tank.jpg)
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2015, 05:27:13 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 05:35:04 pm
You might want to look up the British Flying Elephant super heavy tank.Still different.
Really, making it in modelling software would be best (5h ETA on download though, 100MB HRHGGHGH)
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 06:29:07 pm
I've been forced to move more of this post into the second post, so I'll go with this Army Status/Battle Report format for now. If the Army Status alone hits the 40,000 character limit I will have to think of a new way to do this. Or just triple-post.
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 06:29:33 pm
Sensei I am really curious... What happened with Russian T15s? How they influenced the civil war? Did they develop it further? Did they create their own steam tanks?Russia consciously avoided future steam tanks, having Russian tank production mostly keep in line with history so far.
Though it might be a bit early Sensei do you have a list of reflection and recommendations to anyone hoping to host something like this in the future?I might do a post on this if people want. My advice for now is just be ready for it to take up a lot of time, a game like this can get really hurt by losing momentum and needs to be updated pretty quickly. Avoid too many complex systems and numbers- that's part of what made my last design game unmanageable eventually, and why I have a lot of abstracted systems. I also like the dual-suggestion format, it gets me PvP without needing to wait for posts from a bunch of specific players.
The English Affair
British diplomats have stated that they would like a weapon design from each nation in Forenia- "you know, for letting you off so easy on the whole 'colony' thing, chaps". They are not offering a reward.
The Chinese Civil War
The Royal Army of China has interest in a machine gun, and has turned to Forenia as a potential source. The design must be cheap so as to be well deployed among their troops, and they are offering an Expense Credit. The Communist army is looking for a weapon to attack emplacements, which also must be cheap, and they are offering a contract to provide 1 ore for three years. Each nation may submit only one weapon to each faction, choose wisely.
Cities
I haven't named the Nations' capitols, but I've decided that calling them "Arstotzka's Capitol" and "Moskurg's Capitol" all the time is kind of lame. Come up with a name and an interesting fact about life in your capitol, one submission per person. An intelligence officer from Russia, charged with treason for allegedly selling secrets to rebels, is looking for a place to retire, and he will pay in secrets and knowledge for your nation to keep quiet about his presence in your nation. The best submission will receive an Espionage Credit for their nation.
1928 Battle Report
This year, Arstotzka designed the AS-RPG28, a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. It is very mechanically simple, with the rocket propellant being ignited by a pin like a hand grenade and the launch tube being little more than a tube with a handle. It fires warheads with variants similar to the AS-G27, including a shaped charge, which doesn't fly straight and isn't very effective. Arstotzka also perfected the design process for their turbo chargers, making them reasonably cheap to produce. This will only affect the AS-T25 for now. Moskurg took a break from making bigger things that explode better and designed the Eagle Sight, their first scope. It can be manufactured at zoom levels up to 4x, but not adjusted, and is expensive. For now it can also only be custom-retrofitted to guns, since there aren't any guns designed to take advantage of it nor does Moskurg have an accessory rail system, so regardless of price only a portion of weapons will use it. Expect this to mostly see use on tanks. Moskurg also design the Tiger's Whisper, a radio device which encrypts and decrypts text messages, based on code cards distributed to communications officers. It is as heavy as a normal Model 3 Radio.
Moskurg's ore returns this turn. This means that all their guns are in full production again. Brass buttons are re-issued.
Moskurg gains a significant cryptology advantage this year. Arstotzkan troops capture a Tiger's Whisper machine, but generally don't succeed in stealing up-to-date code cards. Moskurg's Agent Sandworm cracks the Arstotzkan radio jargon by listening to commands given and observing troop movements, and could probably crack a similar system again quickly. Therefore, Moskurg's troops anticipate Arstotzkan attacks, find their weakpoints, and often manage to outnumber them in fights. Arstotzka's Agent Promised Crucible poses as a worker in a T2 Breaker factory to sabotage production, but gets arrested for poor work ethic, and released after six months of being forced to carve statues of tigers. He does, however, cleverly sabotage a couple statues to collapse after being placed. Moskurg Tiger Statue production is penalized this year.
The war in the air hasn't changed, except for the addition of Eagle Sights to some Moskurg M3 Wasps. This lets them aim shots from farther off, but their M1 Stallion's grouping is a limiting factor on accuracy. Arstotzka has more planes shot down by ground-to-air fire than last year, after the Stallion shortage ends. Still, Arstotzka retains an advantage overall. Andrei Zhuyev retires after receiving a bullet to the knee, and becomes an honor guard at the palace in Arstotzka's capitol.
In the desert, Arstotzka finds themselves suffering from very well-coordinated B2 Destroyer Artillery attacks. The B2 is no longer Very Expensive, and Moskurg gunners are listening in on Arstotzkan radio channels. It partly drives Arstotzkans to stop using radios. Moskurg also sees the emergence of the sniper role in their army. Some officers choose to acquire Eagle Sight scopes and have them fixed to Model 1 Rifles or Horsekillers (the Model 1 users are more successful) and pick off Arstotzkan soldiers from great range. It's a terrifying tactic, which drives the AS-MAT26-50 into an impromptu counter-sniper role firing shrapnel shells, as its elongated DT-25 is the most accurate rifle in the Arstotzkan arsenal (it helps that its armor is immune to sniper fire at range). The AS-T25 is now Expensive this year, and Arstotzka makes a massive armored push. New scope-equipped T2 Breakers fire APHE rounds from a great distance, but usually at the sloped front armor. A Breaker gunner who is a good enough shot can, however, nail an AS-T25 turret from long range, destroying the tank. With better radio coordination and artillery support, T2 Breakers successfully fight greater numbers of AS-T25's. Arstotzkan motorcycle troops quickly adopt the AS-RPG28. If they are able to ride close to a T2 breaker, they can easily shoot through its armor. Firing an RPG at mid-range from a motorcycle at full speed is a difficult task, but some kills are recorded this way as well. The Moskurg army defends against this with their cavalry wielding cascades and MK-47s. Motorcycles are vulnerable to sniper fire as well. The Arstotzkan push, once again, stops. (Arstotzka 2/4).
In the mountains, the new Arstotzkan RPG is carried by one or two soldiers in a squad, who forego rifles for the chance to destroy a T2 Breaker defending Moskurg mines. However, Moskurg snipers make a point of targeting these soldiers. A Moskurg squad in the mountains consists of an unfortunately visible officer, and camouflaged soldiers wielding Model 1 rifles and M3 Sorraias. The AS-1924 can be somewhat outperformed by the Sorraia at range- not a big deal normally, but now Moskurg squads pin down enemies with machine gun fire kill them with their sniper. Moskurg gains ground in the mountains. As an added bonus, coordinated Arstotzkan assaults in the mountains are thwarted in that they must either not use radios or allow Moskurg to know when they will be attacking. (Moskurg 2/4).
In the jungle, Moskurg soldiers receive their automatic weapons back. This would put the fight in their favor, but Arstotzka also benefits from their new RPG28. This is more portable than the Rhino, in that it can be fired without setup. A good number of T2 Breakers are killed in ambushes with RPG's, and the AS-T25 also outnumbers them, which gives Arstotzka an advantage on the roads and areas accessible to tanks. Some Moskurg officers attempt to use sniper tactics, but they are usually within the range of a well-aimed Nosin Magant and their camouflage is poor, by which I mean they have big blue hats and silver capes. Moskurg still makes very prolific use of the Cascade, and has an advantage in infantry fights in the jungle which tend to be at close-medium range. However, Arstotzka takes the roads and begins and helps defend against ambush past their lines with well-placed landmines. Nobody gains ground (2/4).
You may now design for 1929.
Post by: andrea on August 10, 2015, 06:36:34 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 06:39:23 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 06:41:52 pm
Submit the AS-1909 to the British. Yes, this is meant to be a statement.To be fair, they can't even accuse you of not giving them your most advanced pistol.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 07:13:50 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 10, 2015, 07:31:59 pm
And if so, can we get a map, nomatter how stylized, of how it would all work?
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 10, 2015, 07:32:55 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 07:39:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EDIT:
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 07:42:11 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 07:42:25 pm
As an aside, the chinese army should be the republic of china's army. not the royal army. A little bit of oversight there.Also, the Republican army is split into many factions. There has been brutal fighting for the past 10 years or so, and another 2 before it boils down to KMT vs Communists.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 07:52:32 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 07:53:45 pm
This game has ruined me. Every time I go to write a post anywhere on the forums, I'm compelled to write "Glory to Arstotzka" after I'm done. This is what you've done to me, Sensei.What's stopping you?
EDIT:
Also, I propose we name our capital, The Capital.
It's named so because British didin't want to acccept AS-CC77 as the name for it after creation of Western Pacific Territory and Arstotzkans had trouble accepting less formal names for their most representative city (which, at the time, consisted of single wooden hut where everyone was cramped in. Although it didin't stop the Arstotzkan Design Bureau from drawing their new concepts on maps, which they got from British, with a piece of charcoal. We got better since then.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 10, 2015, 08:18:43 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 08:19:54 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 10, 2015, 08:20:21 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 10, 2015, 08:22:35 pm
ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 08:23:32 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 08:25:48 pm
Ah, screw other countries, why should we care what they think?Because we're trying to attract a Russian spy so we can get an Espionage credit. Besides, GLOREALUM is a much more glorious and patriotic name.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 08:32:03 pm
shitty cheap special effectIt's also a thinly veiled reference to pretty obscure joke about not-so-well-known game that isin't going to be a thing for another 75 years or so. It doesn't even sound right, unlike the original, which is funny only when used in Wh40k fandoms, with moderation.
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 08:40:12 pm
Hey Sensei, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is "not used at all" and 10 is "everyone uses it", how much does Moskurg use the Cascade in close infantry battles?I'm just sticking with my statement of "Very prolific". I have a a fear of committing to numbers. :P
This game has ruined me. Every time I go to write a post anywhere on the forums, I'm compelled to write "Glory to Arstotzka" after I'm done. This is what you've done to me, Sensei.You could save time and add it to your signature. ;)
Split into many factions? Emperor Puyi is aghast at your insinuation that his army is so poorly disciplined.As an aside, the chinese army should be the republic of china's army. not the royal army. A little bit of oversight there.Also, the Republican army is split into many factions. There has been brutal fighting for the past 10 years or so, and another 2 before it boils down to KMT vs Communists.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 08:40:48 pm
EDIT: Alternatively, we could go with Euklora, combining the goddess of glory and the goddess of morning.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 08:47:01 pm
Well what about "Euklaresia"? Combines the name of the Greek goddess of glory and the Greek god of war.Read it out loud and tell me it doesn't sound like a brand of mint sweets or worse.
EDIT: The second one is even worse.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 08:48:52 pm
Thusfar, it's Chiang kai-shek in charge of the republic of china, along with a dozen or so warlords. Might need to send glorious moskurg assistance to help the republic army get up to scratch.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 08:49:48 pm
You're so cruel. :'(Well what about "Euklaresia"? Combines the name of the Greek goddess of glory and the Greek god of war.Read it out loud and tell me it doesn't sound like a brand of mint sweets or worse.
EDIT: The second one is even worse.
Post by: Sensei on August 10, 2015, 08:58:08 pm
'Emperor' puyi also happens to be living in japan (Atleast, the japanese embassy.) at this stage, given the xinhai rebellion. Point is, he hasn't got any power for now. He'll have to wait for the japanese to sit him in manchuria.Nonsense, he has been Emperor since the Restoration in 1917, when Manchu loyalists defeated the Republican army and abolished parliament.
Thusfar, it's Chiang kai-shek in charge of the republic of china, along with a dozen or so warlords. Might need to send glorious moskurg assistance to help the republic army get up to scratch.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 09:02:11 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 09:02:24 pm
I don't know much about Chinese history. Did this really happen IRL or did we change history?'Emperor' puyi also happens to be living in japan (Atleast, the japanese embassy.) at this stage, given the xinhai rebellion. Point is, he hasn't got any power for now. He'll have to wait for the japanese to sit him in manchuria.Nonsense, he has been Emperor since the Restoration in 1917, when Manchu loyalists defeated the Republican army and abolished parliament.
Thusfar, it's Chiang kai-shek in charge of the republic of china, along with a dozen or so warlords. Might need to send glorious moskurg assistance to help the republic army get up to scratch.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 09:05:02 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 09:13:28 pm
Kindly note that the whole slab of chaos had its roots in military reformation in the late Qing dynasty though.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 09:15:31 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 10, 2015, 09:23:06 pm
The capital of Moskurg, also named Moskurg, is technically one of three cities that comprise the capital; Moskurg, Alstrad and Erching. The original capital, as conquered and established by the British centuries ago, was actually Erching. However, the larger port of Moskurg attracted more attention and became the functional industrial and political hub of the country, even if the administrative hub was the palace at Erching. With the Industrial Revolution, tens of thousands of Moskurgs migrated from the rural lives they had led in the mountains and plains and moved to the desert, where oil and manufacturing based industries served as beacons for those looking for better lives - often, said beacons were misleading and brought poverty, cramped living conditions and dangerous working conditions.
The city of Moskurg eventually expanded to the point where it met the borders of Erching and then encompassed them - the latter city effectively became a borough of 'Greater Moskurg'. It is only in the last thirty years that the booming petroleum industry in Alstrad has expanded it enough to be included in Greater Moskurg, but the establishment of commuter railroads and a motorway have solidified its inclusion for as long as Moskurg stands.
Life in Moskurg
Alard is a Moskurg, living in the capital with his young wife Belle. Alard works as a mechanic for the Bureau of Industry, Belle works as a munitionette in a filling factory. They are an example of the typical middle class member of Moskurg society.
Alard lives on the outskirts of old Moskurg, quite close to Alstrad. He wakes up at six a.m. each morning, thanks to his alarm clock. The clock is a fairly rare import from Britain, who still holds trading ties with their former colony. For breakfast, Alard has scrambled eggs made from egg powder, as real eggs cost too many ration coupons. He remembers having boiled eggs as a child, nine years ago before the plains were 'ceded', as the history books put it. He has a glass of orange juice, which is relatively cheap and unrationed because the plantations in the jungle are still going strong. He puts on a suit and shirt of mountain-spun wool and gives his wife a kiss before leaving for work.
Alard rides the bus to work each day, as he lives too far out from the Bureau to walk. He does pass others, typically the poorer members of society, who do make the long walk into the city and back each day, and thanks God for his good, secure job. The bus stops at a traffic light, a relatively recent addition to the streets now that automotive vehicles are becoming more common, and witnesses a belligerent, homeless drunk shouting slurs about the Great Leader. Blue and silver uniformed officers arrive and drag him off the street. Alard is thankful such an annoying man has been taken away, assuming that after a short beating they will let the drunk off. The bus pulls on, giving a beep of its horn when a rich Moskurg in a shiny blue Struunk speeds through a red light.
Arriving at the Bureau warehouse floor, Alard removes his suit jacket and gets into some white woollen overalls. The wool sometimes itches when it hasn't been processed properly, but cotton has been rationed these past nine years. He smiles, as the warehouse is already buzzing over its project; one of the few T2 Breakers in production. He joins in with his fellow mechanics in applying the new armour panels they have been shipped in.
Belle wakes up at seven a.m. after an hour of dozy sleep. Alard has left her some scrambled eggs for breakfast, which she finishes off with a glass of orange juice, followed by a cigarette. Cigarettes are cheap, and unrationed. On a bad day, she will go through eight or nine, but usually she will smoke three; one at breakfast, one with the girls at work and one at the end of her shift. She puts on a blue cotton dress, a gift from her husband, and some cream leather shoes. The shoes are her guilty pleasure, actually smuggled over the border from Arstotzkan East Forenia and made available through her friend with contacts in the black market.
The filling factory is just outside Moskurg, so Belle is able to walk to work, carrying a blue woollen handbag. She gets some catcalls from a handful of workers on a construction site, but she ignores them and walks on. One of the workers gets insistent and starts following her, making suggestive statements. She draws the Cascade sub-machine gun she carries in her handbag (a wedding gift from her mother-in-law) and points it at the harasser, who is dissuaded. She continues the rest of the way to work unmolested.
Belle arrives early, and a handful of other women have arrived at the factory and are putting on their aprons and hairnets. Belle gets a few envious looks for her dress, which she enjoys. Belle removes her wedding ring and places it in a pocket in her dress, as she does not want it to scratch against the bullet casings when she is working. She makes her way to her place along the conveyor belt and has a few minutes of chatter before the whistle blows and the conveyor belts start moving. She is surprised to see that she is filling Breaker shells today, apparently with the new explosive charges. A co-worker makes a crude joke about the size of the shells, and she laughs along.
Alard reaches the end of his morning shift and the whistle blows for break. He wipes oil and grease from his hands and sits down in the break room with the other men in his crew, shirt sleeves rolled up and happy to take his cup of coffee. Some of the other men smoke pipes, but unlike his wife Alard has little taste for tobacco. The radio is on, and the MBC is playing Vaughan Williams' [\i]The Vagabond. Not in the mood for chatter, Alard picks up a copy of The Moskurger and reads about the issues of the day. There is a coupon for cheap sarsaparilla, which he carefully folds and tears out, putting in his shirt pocket for later. The radio broadcast breaks up halfway through [\i]"White as meal the frosty field / Warm the fire-side haven..." and is replaced by a familiar voice. "Moskurg, Arstotzka, Forenia. My name is John Otto, and this is-" The radio is swiftly turned off by the supervisor, fearful of agents from the Bureau of Integrity.
The supervisor asks Alard outside for a moment, and asks how familiar he is with the Tiger. Alard assures him that he is very familiar with the truck design. The supervisor seems pleased, and instructs Alard that he has been ordered to Tiger Paw Base in the mountains to deal with some problems they are having there. If everything goes well, he should be home by nine p.m.. Alard is a little disappointed, but accepts his orders and goes to change back into his suit. He makes use of the warehouse telephone and asks for the operator to connect him to the filling factory. His wife is not available, but the woman on the other end promises to take a message for her at lunch.
The train station is not far from the Bureau, so Alard walks. Along the way he catches lunch; hot oil-drenched meat in a bun, with a shot of cheap government tequila on the side. He arrives at the train station, which is quite busy even for the middle of the day. He hands his ticket to a conductor and is directed to the appropriate train, which will take him as far as Torskurg, in the foothills beneath the mountains. The Bureau has not exactly seen fit to pay for a first class ticket, so he boards the second class carriages and gets a compartment he shares with a woman with a screaming child and an old, snoring man.
Belle visibly relaxes when the whistle goes for lunch. She needs a cigarette, and heads straight to the lunch hall to light up. The factory provides lunch to keep the women on site, so she sits down with a corned beef sandwich and a mug of hot, sweet tea and a cigarette. After a couple of minutes of quiet smoking she joins in with the rest of the girls on her table, talking mostly about typical gossip; who might be sleeping with whom, what the latest ration changes are, news from the front. One of the girls is quite visibly concerned about the last topic, as she has had no word from her fiancée, a pilot, for a week now. Belle joins in with another girl in calming her down, lighting another cigarette in the process.
Alard has headed to the dining coach, helping himself to another couple of shots of government tequila and a banana pie (not rationed) and cream (costing 1 ration token). By now the train is most of the way through the desert, and he can hear the distant thunderclaps of artillery fire. The track passes close to the front by this point. The screaming woman has already left, and the snoring old man revealed himself as a Bureau of Integrity agent, checking Alard's papers before leaving at his own stop. He wished Alard luck in the mountains, and asked him to give his regards to the commander at Tiger Paw Base. Alard helps himself to a third shot of government tequila, trying to ignore the increasing volume of the artillery shocks.
Belle finishes her shift at five p.m., and as it is the right day of the week, stays behind ten minutes to receive her pay packet as well. She smokes her fourth cigarette in the queue. One of the girls mentions to her that her husband left a message, saying that he won't be back until nine. Belle takes the opportunity to go for a drink at the local pub with the other girls, and sits down to several cups of tea and some oiled bread (butter is rationed), as she is part of the local Temperance Club, although mostly for the social events. There is a shooting gallery at the back of the pub, and she and a few of the other girls take turns with the pub's Horsekiller. The landlord refuses to let her use the Cascade, although she does enjoy showing it off there sometimes.
Alard finally arrives at Torskurg, where the weather is a little cooler than his thin woollen clothes are ideal for, but he is glad for once that he is not wearing cotton. He shows his papers to the conductor and asks for directions for the bus to Tiger's Paw Base. The conductor laughs and points to a handful of mule carts outside the station. Alard is a little frustrated by this, but the carters take his Bureau chitty, albeit with a little annoyance. It sometimes takes days for the local government to process them and pay up. The cart ride is long and rickety, but it is still better than walking.
Belle heads home, taking a different route in case the construction workers are still there. She takes a shortcut through an alleyway, plastered with government posters such as TIGERS DON'T TALK - secrets kill soldiers, and resistance posters, usually featuring stylised images of John Otto. Someone has painted DETH TO THE GRATE LEEDER on the wall. She hurries out of the alleyway, glad to be back to the electric lamp lit streets. Alard usually cooks, as he gets home before her, so she stops off at the local butcher, who professes the paucity of good meat and loudly asks to see her ration tokens before taking her into the back room with him. She pays good money for a black market steak, and gives the butcher a kiss on the cheek as well. She takes it home in a brown paper bag, which she conceals inside her handbag.
Alard finally arrives at Tiger's Paw Base, a military encampment connected to a fairly broad road in questionable repair. He is greeted by the commander, who he informs about the Integrity Agent's greeting. The commander laughs, as it turns out he and the agent are good friends. He gives Alard a thick woollen coat for the cold and leads him to the camp's Tiger trucks, explaining that he and his men cannot seem to determine the reason they refuse to work. Alard promises to take a look at them, and a soldier brings him some hot cocoa (rationed, but freely available for the armed forces) whilst he works.
Belle turns on the electric lights in her home and puts the steak in the pantry for the moment. She pours herself a glass of government tequila and picks out her copy of the Bible, which she spends a little time reading before saying some short prayers. She then picks up her copy of Frankenstein, which she is part of the way through, and reads for an hour until the clock reads ten minutes to eight. She heads over to the sitting room's radio, which is her husband's and which he built himself from parts and is his pride and joy. She turns it on, getting a short blast of Cole Porter before fiddling with the dials until she reaches a very specific frequency. She adjusts the broadcaster on the radio, sending out a series of carefully measured beeps. A voice comes from the radio, that of Samir, one of the resistance commanders. Belle gives her a short report of the week, followed by a mention of the number and type of Breaker shells being produced in the filling factory. Samir accepts the information and both hail the resistance before tuning out. Belle tunes the radio back to the government channel and turns it off. She sits for several minutes in silence, steadily drinking government tequila and staring at the wall until she reassures herself that Bureau of Integrity agents are not going to kick in the door. Then she goes to prepare dinner.
Alard returns from the Tigers and heads towards the commander's tent when he hears a distinctive whirring sound and a soldier tackles him into a nearby ditch. He puts his hands over his head and curls into a ball as the whistling of the bombs comes, and he hears several explosions, some quite close, followed by the heavy thudding of a Stallion from an overhead Wasp. Alard stays in the ditch for a full minute after the sounds of the dogfight and bombing run cease, carefully climbing up to look at the wreckage. Less than he expected - a couple of tents gone, some of the more permanent buildings, but less dead than he would have figured. He has to wait another thirty minutes before he can speak to the harassed commander. Alard explains that the Tigers were sabotaged in such a way that unless you had built one of them you likely would not recognise the damage. He has fixed them, and the commander takes it as a small relief. The commander offers Alard a trip back on one of the tanker trucks as far down as Torskurg, which he accepts.
Dinner is getting cold, and Belle has already finished hers. She takes to her book and drink again, but cannot help escape a deep sense of unease. She frets for several minutes before turning on the radio and waiting for the news, which takes until ten p.m. When the news comes, there is a one-line mention about continued bombing in the mountains, and her blood turns to ice. No amount of government tequila seems to thaw it, but she does eventually pass out on the couch.
Alard reaches Torskurg station with a lift from the Tiger tanker, but it transpires that the line is temporarily out of service due to shelling. The trucker offers to take him the rest of the way to Moskurg, and Alard eventually falls asleep to the thrumming of the engine. He is woken about fifteen minute's walk from his house, and leaves the truck driver the payment chitty he would have spent on the train as a thank-you. Alard eventually gets back to his house at midnight, and is knackered. He spots his wife asleep on the couch, radio still playing, and turns it off. He gives Belle a kiss on the forehead, but she is sound asleep. He smiles and sits down to his cold steak, to tired to heat it up again. Alard pulls a small bottle of imported black market scotch from underneath the kitchen sink and pours himself a tumbler of it. He drains the glass, washes up and carries his wife to bed before turning in himself.
What a day, he thinks to himself. Perhaps tomorrow will be better.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 09:25:38 pm
Keep Arstotzka's capital city's name as Arstotzka. Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 09:27:59 pm
Shit, that's actually pretty good.Impressive.
Keep Arstotzka's capital city's name as Arstotzka. Glory to Arstotzka.
What about some backstory though? We can't exactly be worse than THEM.
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 09:32:09 pm
Given the warlord era, I'd more easily presume there'd be a new dynasty from one of the warlords, and that's if someone actually managed to unite them.On the other hand, Puyi is a good candidate for a figurehead.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 10, 2015, 09:40:06 pm
Yeah, I am requesting a transfer to Moskurg team because I want a new challenge and because Moskurg thread is almost two times shorter and it must be fixed
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 09:58:12 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:04:15 pm
Traitor.TO be fair one of our guys rage quit, and im not all that active.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
Impressive.I'll try and come up with something later today but my writing isn't much better than my drawing. Why don't you give it a shot?
What about some backstory though? We can't exactly be worse than THEM.
Meanwhile one young weapon designer got tired of living in tundra and using numbers to name weapons and decided to move to a warmer climateDisgusting filthy shit stain traitor piece of crap go die in a hole fuck bastard! Glory to Arstotzka, asswipe!
Yeah, I am requesting a transfer to Moskurg team because I want a new challenge and because Moskurg thread is almost two times shorter and it must be fixed
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:21:03 pm
Moskurg's Capital: MoskurgThe now borough of Erching however remains the intellectual heart of Moskurg, while it does not have the raw industrial out put the other boroughs have, the residency of the British Governors left its mark. Facilities originally meant to be used to educate the children of nobles, and other up and coming colonial figures, have been refurbished into a hub for scientific pursuits on a national level.
The capital of Moskurg, also named Moskurg, is technically one of three cities that comprise the capital; Moskurg, Alstrad and Erching. The original capital, as conquered and established by the British centuries ago, was actually Erching. However, the larger port of Moskurg attracted more attention and became the functional industrial and political hub of the country, even if the administrative hub was the palace at Erching. With the Industrial Revolution, tens of thousands of Moskurgs migrated from the rural lives they had led in the mountains and plains and moved to the desert, where oil and manufacturing based industries served as beacons for those looking for better lives - often, said beacons were misleading and brought poverty, cramped living conditions and dangerous working conditions.
The city of Moskurg eventually expanded to the point where it met the borders of Erching and then encompassed them - the latter city effectively became a borough of 'Greater Moskurg'. It is only in the last thirty years that the booming petroleum industry in Alstrad has expanded it enough to be included in Greater Moskurg, but the establishment of commuter railroads and a motorway have solidified its inclusion for as long as Moskurg stands.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:21:48 pm
Traitor.TO be fair one of our guys rage quit, and im not all that active.
Spoiler: Traitor (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 10, 2015, 10:22:37 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:23:12 pm
Is that one of the hideous Arstotzkan women I hear so much about? So terrible you hide them inside of traitors?Traitor.TO be fair one of our guys rage quit, and im not all that active.[spoiler=Traitor]
T
R T
T A R
R I T A
A T T R I
I O R A T T
T R A I T O R
O I T R R A
R T O A I
O R I T
R T O
O R
R
[/pre][/b][/i][/font][/size][/color][/glow][/shadow][/traitor]
Also I fully welcome back one our our foreign agents back.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:27:53 pm
You broke it, filthy Moskurgian. Clearly, any technology more complicated than crayons is above you. Also, say what you want about our women, but by any measure, they aren't tigers.Is that one of the hideous Arstotzkan women I hear so much about? So terrible you hide them inside of traitors?Traitor.TO be fair one of our guys rage quit, and im not all that active.Spoiler: Traitor (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 10, 2015, 10:28:41 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:29:13 pm
I used it the way you put it originally.You broke it, filthy Moskurgian. Also, say what you want about our women, but by any measure, they aren't tigers.Is that one of the hideous Arstotzkan women I hear so much about? So terrible you hide them inside of traitors?Traitor.TO be fair one of our guys rage quit, and im not all that active.[spoiler=Traitor]
T
R T
T A R
R I T A
A T T R I
I O R A T T
T R A I T O R
O I T R R A
R T O A I
O R I T
R T O
O R
R
[/pre][/b][/i][/font][/size][/color][/glow][/shadow][/traitor]
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:33:08 pm
I used it the way you put it originally.You didn't.
I don't see any edit on my post.
Also, the worst thing is that TRAITOR has no avatar, so we can't really shoot or hang him in effige.
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:35:56 pm
Its called a ninja editI used it the way you put it originally.You didn't.
I don't see any edit on my post.
Also, the worst thing is that TRAITOR has no avatar, so we can't really shoot or hang him in effige.
See?
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:37:51 pm
Prove it. Or actually don't, I have no interest in anything you animals can tell me, it will be lies anyway.Its called a ninja editI used it the way you put it originally.You didn't.
I don't see any edit on my post.
Also, the worst thing is that TRAITOR has no avatar, so we can't really shoot or hang him in effige.
See?
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 10:39:44 pm
On the other hand, that means the japanese can't seize manchuria in the mukden incident given that china could much more likely be more stable, thus impacting the second world war drastically.Yes and no. It is still a playground between Comintern and the Fascists.
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:40:03 pm
Proving it would be impossible, due to how fast it has to be done after the original post is made, and to get a picture, upload it, and then edit it into the post, which takes time, anything else you could say you just used preview mode or some such to dismiss it.Prove it. Or actually don't, I have no interest in anything you animals can tell me, it will be lies anyway.Its called a ninja editI used it the way you put it originally.You didn't.
I don't see any edit on my post.
Also, the worst thing is that TRAITOR has no avatar, so we can't really shoot or hang him in effige.
See?
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 10:44:14 pm
Yes and no. It is still a playground between Comintern and the Fascists.Not really? Without kai-shek there's not much chance of a communist rebellion given that he basically kicked them out of government. Honestly, china isn't interesting (And important to the future regarding WW2) without the warlord states. And said warlord states give us a chance to get prestige by whipping the warlords and the nationalist army into shape.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:50:57 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2015, 10:52:33 pm
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:55:07 pm
I don't think it's a good idea to start insulting people for being from whatever real country they're from. Let's just stick with Moskurg/Arstotzka insults.Uhm, sure.
Post by: Elfeater on August 10, 2015, 10:56:19 pm
On the other hand, what else could I expect from Ukrainian, or at least someone who claims to be one.That escalated quickly.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 10:58:09 pm
It did.On the other hand, what else could I expect from Ukrainian, or at least someone who claims to be one.That escalated quickly.
On the other hand, being a traitor, IIRC, is still treated by firing squad in lot's and lot's of countries.
EDIT: Try to not mind me, after all, my way too big patriotism (or rather, nationalism) speaks through me.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 10, 2015, 11:00:29 pm
PS. Kot, I am Ukrainian, furthermore I am a Ukrainian nationalist. Enjoy this fact.
Post by: evilcherry on August 10, 2015, 11:04:31 pm
Comintern would be exporting revolution anyway, and even without the self-indulgence of Chiang the Emperor will always be a convenient target.Yes and no. It is still a playground between Comintern and the Fascists.Not really? Without kai-shek there's not much chance of a communist rebellion given that he basically kicked them out of government. Honestly, china isn't interesting (And important to the future regarding WW2) without the warlord states. And said warlord states give us a chance to get prestige by whipping the warlords and the nationalist army into shape.
Post by: Taricus on August 10, 2015, 11:07:46 pm
Also, how is the CPC selling ore when it's the other side that's the legally recognised nation of china? You'd think the communists would actually need those ores.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 11:08:02 pm
It is a game guys :) I think my decision will add a fresh stream to it. Do not focus on winning(c) too hard.I do. This kinda makes me hate you for real, forgiving crucified children isin't an easy thing.
PS. Kot, I am Ukrainian, furthermore I am a Ukrainian nationalist. Enjoy this fact.
But, but, but whatever. Let's not bring real war into fictional war, as people already said.
Post by: Parsely on August 10, 2015, 11:10:01 pm
I don't think it's a good idea to start insulting people for being from whatever real country they're from. Let's just stick with Moskurg/Arstotzka insults.This.
Post by: Kot on August 10, 2015, 11:15:28 pm
No need to repeat it three times tho.I don't think it's a good idea to start insulting people for being from whatever real country they're from. Let's just stick with Moskurg/Arstotzka insults.This.
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 12:04:58 am
IT wasn't exactly successful in exporting revolution though.If they are on the north they can export through USSR.
Also, how is the CPC selling ore when it's the other side that's the legally recognised nation of china? You'd think the communists would actually need those ores.
Semantics and words aside, no one really care about China at that time.
Post by: Taricus on August 11, 2015, 12:10:14 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 12:12:39 am
The thing is that I doubt they even have territory to export from :/Mongolia.
Post by: Taricus on August 11, 2015, 12:13:51 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 12:25:59 am
They aren't even that close, given that it started in the southern regions too far from the ports.Except that history might be very different. Also, their "long march" might have come a bit earlier.
Post by: Taricus on August 11, 2015, 12:42:49 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 01:00:41 am
If it leads to the same place, they're still surrounded by the chinese. Not really a way out of that.Which is still close enough to comintern-leaning Mongolia.
Post by: Taricus on August 11, 2015, 01:02:11 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 01:08:41 am
Not really. That, and you'd kinda need mines and convoys to move the production from them, something that thanks to the encirclement campaigns isn't possible.Historically Inner Mongolia is Mongolia.
Post by: Taricus on August 11, 2015, 01:14:00 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 01:19:07 am
Which is still part of the encirclement of the communist rebels. Point being, they just don't have the means to export the ore. Either by logistics capability, or by any port.Mongolia is communist-leaning for the most part.
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 01:38:50 am
Sadly.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 11, 2015, 01:53:17 am
The capital of Arstotzka goes by a number of names and designations. Many insist it is named The Capital, some that it is Arstotzka, and the official designation on the more numerically oriented military maps is AS-CM-01. Due to the confusion, most people simply refer to it as "That city over there. You know, with the palace."
The city can be decided more-or-less into two parts: The old city, built along the river leading down to the southern bay (B-MS-01) and along the (mostly decrepit) dockyards, and the new city, built north from the new capital building.
The old city, while beautiful, is a quagmire of small roads. Sightseers are advised to hire a guide if they plan to travel off the main roads in the old city, as public transport is sketchy and streetsigns are rare. Thankfully it is rather easy to make your way back to the river road, where you can ask one of the friendly patrolmen for directions.
The new city, on the otherhand, is quite possibly the opposite. Each road and building was planned ahead of time, and the public transport net is extensive and well thought out. Signs mark each street, bearing both the alpha-numerical designation and the name of the street. The center of this area is dominated by the grand park, a exceptionally large stretch of ground studded with museums, ponds, and other sources of education and entertainment for the city. At the southern end of the part stands the Capital building (tours daily), at the northern end stands the new City Terminus, which is set to whisk passengers to nearly any point within Arstotzka, and dominating the center of the park is the great Monument to the Unknown Soldier, celebrating those boys who have lost their lives and their identities to the foe.
Sights to see within the Capital include, but are by no means limited to: The Museum of the war of Moskurgian Aggression (which includes many examples of pristine captured enemy equipment) the Arstotzkan War Museum (which includes many examples of weapons wielded by the brave soldiers fighting to beat back the imperialist aggressors), the Grand Central park, the Monument to the Unknown Soldier.
Express lines from the City Terminus travel daily to the industrial city on the bay (AS-CM-02), the Great Military Base (wherin every soldier in the Arstotzkan military is trained and equipped to fight the foe), and to the new development to the west of the city (currently only known as AS-CM-03 or "You know, that new city they are building. You know, the one with individual houses for everyone who lives there?").
So, whadda you guys think?
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 01:58:16 am
An expert from A sightseers guide to the Arstotzkan Capital.No man, it should be called AS-C(apital)(C)ity)-77 as for 1877, which is the date of creation of British Western Pacific Territories (where, presumably, our island is located).
The capital of Arstotzka goes by a number of names and designations. Many insist it is named The Capital, some that it is Arstotzka, and the official designation on the more numerically oriented military maps is AS-CM-01.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 11, 2015, 02:00:03 am
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 02:06:31 am
Post by: Andres on August 11, 2015, 02:11:00 am
So, whadda you guys think?Pretty good, but needs more patriotism. Patriotism and glory.
77. We use dates for designations, don't you remember?We used to use full dates and only full dates up until 1912. Our first machine gun was called nothing more than the AS-1910. It's why our new machine gun was named the AS-1924 instead of AS-MG24.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 11, 2015, 02:12:35 am
Post by: Andres on August 11, 2015, 02:13:13 am
So AS-1877 for the capital?No. The name of the capital is Arstotzka.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 02:13:55 am
Glory to Arstotzka.Yes. The official name is AS-1877.
Glory to AS-1877.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 11, 2015, 03:11:17 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 04:21:20 am
Most visitors to Moskurg will agree that this place has a pathological affection to tigers. There are effigies and statues dedicated to their national symbol every second intersection; people uses the expression "As good as a tiger's butt" for pretty women, or "so bad that Tigers won't chew on" for bad - especially Astrotzkan - food.
But when asked on "what symbolizes their craze on Tigers", almost everyone will agree on the Sunday Procession as the definitive answer.
The Sunday Procession started as a change of honor guards, but subsequently developed into a show of force of the Moskurg military and El Presidente in handling tigers and thus Arstotzka alike. Like most military processions, it is comprised of soldiers marching at a deliberate slow pace, followed by line of armored vehicles and various artillery, but the most striking, and perhaps the most enthusiastically expected part, is the parade of tigers. Three tigers, sometimes four, sometimes six, are transported on the back of their namesake L-1 Tiger trucks, at the very end of the procession. Each tiger got his own truck, and is accompanied by a Tiger-handler.
Usually, and I can say in at least 9 out of 10 times, they are just doing tricks, like mock devouring their trainer's head, jumping, handwaving, or the occasional ball pass between two tigers, greeted by half-enthusiastic cheers from onlooking Moskurgans. However, occasionally, a tiger might jump off the truck and uses his mouth to grab a bystander by his back. If you happen to be on scene, you are lucky, and this is the main draw of the event. Despite the obvious hazard of sharp teeth, the bystander is almost never hurt, and is carried onto the truck. The handler and the tiger will then torture -for lack of a better word - the victim, until he admitted to a crime - usually petty smuggling of Arstotzkan products, eating Arstotzkan food, or reading Arstotzkan books, and then he will be summarily sentenced by something like having his arm or leg severed off by the Tiger. People cheered on as the offending body part was chewed on.
Two years ago, however, on one cloudy Sunday, the script was not followed upon. Four tigers were brought out, and was trailing on the back of the procession. As the Tigers passes by the Soviet Embassy, The tigers suddenly all jumped off and converged onto one particular bystander. He was immediately bitten by the tigers, to my horror, with blood and shred cloth thrown around the place; his carcass was opened, and his organs were lying around. I couldn't bear that, but it does not affect everyone else, as they cheered on, at an intensity unheard of even by Moskurgan standards. I feel so sick and hurried back to the safety of the El Grande Hotel; and as he drove back, my Chauffeur was already talking about the incident.
The newspaper next day said the victim was a Arstotzkan spy, who have just arrived the day before, intended to make drawings of the T-2 Breaker tank. The story ran with all kinds of supporting document and evidence, but I was never convinced. However, every Moskurgan buys into the official version of the story, and perhaps its better to be so.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 11, 2015, 07:03:04 am
See, normally, complexity adds. Combine a complex engine with a complex suspension, and you have trouble. However, in case of add-on equipment, such as the radio and scopes, it's merely the highest cost that counts. This is heavily in favor of add-on designs, as those allow you to upgrade your entire army in one go, while ignoring the cost of said upgrade.
An example : Our respective tanks.
Our tank had a complex supercharger and fuel injection, two problems that required a long time to resolve. Several turns, in fact
Moskurg's tank utilizes both a complex radio and scope. Both costs can be ignored due to the add-on rules.
As you can see, this is clearly unfair. I thus propose that thus issue is resolved by adding the cost as would normally be expected, were all add-on's part of the design.
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 07:12:26 am
scopes and radios however are equipment carried by the crew members, in the same way as our motorbike dudes took to using an RPG.
Unless the radio is integrated in the design.
edit: Farewell UR. You will be missed, you had good knowledge and good ideas.
If you want to keep in contact with the old friends, just give us your radio codes for the week and we can chat ;)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 11, 2015, 07:15:14 am
For the moment, it looks like this.
Add-on
-Upgrades entire army
-No cost
Integrated
-Affects 1 unit
-Seriously increases cost
Clearly that is a problem.
Post by: Sensei on August 11, 2015, 07:17:40 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 11, 2015, 07:18:16 am
installing a scope or radio apparently is
read up on rules regarding the production phase
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 07:20:11 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 11, 2015, 07:20:53 am
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 07:21:55 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 11, 2015, 07:22:58 am
Some T2 Breakers have radios (group leaders), some have scopes, and many have neither.If we were to follow the rules, as is logical, then that would be a national project, and there would exactly 1 tank with a radio.
A rare modification of a tank which is described as being very rare itself should not have any effect on the battlefield.
installing a scope or radio apparently isIt is noted in the design that they must be custom fitted at the factory.
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 07:25:31 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 11, 2015, 07:29:33 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 11, 2015, 07:30:40 am
You have a radio, Expensive, probably, and a tank, also expensive.
Country A makes the Tank be prebuilt with the radio.
Country B has the Radio used as an optional add-on to the tank.
Does country A's tank have it's expense level upped from expensive to very expensive? And does country B's tank and radio stay expensive separately?
Post by: Sensei on August 11, 2015, 07:34:46 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 11, 2015, 07:41:03 am
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 11:28:21 am
parts of the history include both nations( like the reorganization of '77 or the dates of british colonialism), so if you have any big issue with what I wrote, feel free to report it to me, no matter your nation.
Spoiler: Glory to arstotzka! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on August 11, 2015, 11:31:10 am
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 11:37:28 am
I really think that every Arstotzkan used to be name AS-XXYY.AS-J(ohn)D(oe)77(year)-0001(serial number).
Or something.
Post by: Sheb on August 11, 2015, 11:40:38 am
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 11:44:33 am
Unless you mean that it is their only name? in which case I am going to veto that. Since we already got named people on our side.
Post by: Sheb on August 11, 2015, 11:46:10 am
Post by: tryrar on August 11, 2015, 11:49:48 am
That seems awfully similar to social security number and its cousins in other nations. I don't see why it wouldn't be used. Probably more extensively than in the rest of the world.
Unless you mean that it is their only name? in which case I am going to veto that. Since we already got named people on our side.
Agreed. I mean, we are using it to name our weapons, but we are weapons designers. Naming EVERYONE like that just seems silly.
Post by: Sheb on August 11, 2015, 11:53:03 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 11:58:05 am
((In many states nowadays your registration number is your unique identifier. You can change your name, legally or without the burden of so, but the number sticks. So its not entirely inaccurate, just un-ergonomic.))That seems awfully similar to social security number and its cousins in other nations. I don't see why it wouldn't be used. Probably more extensively than in the rest of the world.
Unless you mean that it is their only name? in which case I am going to veto that. Since we already got named people on our side.
Agreed. I mean, we are using it to name our weapons, but we are weapons designers. Naming EVERYONE like that just seems silly.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 11, 2015, 12:13:49 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 12:20:05 pm
I actually came up with an ID system in my mind last night...Wouldn't the "Issuing Locale" thing be AS? I mean, we're a small nation, there's a high chance that only place where people can get registered is the capital (also the local priest, but that would be unofficial in eyes of paperwork)...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 02:26:25 pm
5 pages because there is no do or do not, but only overdo!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The small parliament so often mentioned is the ruling assembly of the nation, composed of roughly 30 people , representing the administrative divisions of the nation. More than half of the seats are from the south bay area, directly descended from the historical seats of the first council. the other seats were added after 1877, in a number big enough to not anger the locals and small enough to keep all the power in Arstotzka.
While some of the seats, especially the newer ones, are elected by the population, many are still hereditary or appointed ( descended from nobles or appointed officials)
Post by: Aseaheru on August 11, 2015, 02:51:40 pm
I actually came up with an ID system in my mind last night...Wouldn't the "Issuing Locale" thing be AS? I mean, we're a small nation, there's a high chance that only place where people can get registered is the capital (also the local priest, but that would be unofficial in eyes of paperwork)...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Most people would get issued one in their home town, or at POW camps, at ports, or what-have you.
Post by: Iituem on August 11, 2015, 04:07:13 pm
Ok, I am done. Not sure if all those things count as facts of life in the capital, but I can come up with something later. But I should have a pretty solid description of a capital.
5 pages because there is no do or do not, but only overdo!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The small parliament so often mentioned is the ruling assembly of the nation, composed of roughly 30 people , representing the administrative divisions of the nation. More than half of the seats are from the south bay area, directly descended from the historical seats of the first council. the other seats were added after 1877, in a number big enough to not anger the locals and small enough to keep all the power in Arstotzka.
While some of the seats, especially the newer ones, are elected by the population, many are still hereditary or appointed ( descended from nobles or appointed officials)
We allowed to do more than one 'fact of life'? If so, I have plenty more to edit in to mine.
Post by: Elfeater on August 11, 2015, 04:17:29 pm
Also are we allowed to collaborate on ours? Such as the addition I made to yours about the previous capital city?Ok, I am done. Not sure if all those things count as facts of life in the capital, but I can come up with something later. But I should have a pretty solid description of a capital.
5 pages because there is no do or do not, but only overdo!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The small parliament so often mentioned is the ruling assembly of the nation, composed of roughly 30 people , representing the administrative divisions of the nation. More than half of the seats are from the south bay area, directly descended from the historical seats of the first council. the other seats were added after 1877, in a number big enough to not anger the locals and small enough to keep all the power in Arstotzka.
While some of the seats, especially the newer ones, are elected by the population, many are still hereditary or appointed ( descended from nobles or appointed officials)
We allowed to do more than one 'fact of life'? If so, I have plenty more to edit in to mine.
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 04:23:45 pm
and I can't see why collaboration would be banned.
Post by: Sensei on August 11, 2015, 04:31:41 pm
Post by: andrea on August 11, 2015, 04:33:27 pm
edit: anyone in the nation willing to cooperate on a single submission?
Post by: Andres on August 11, 2015, 08:39:20 pm
edit: anyone in the nation willing to cooperate on a single submission?I think you've done pretty much everything.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evilcherry on August 11, 2015, 10:50:58 pm
Post by: Andres on August 12, 2015, 02:34:55 am
Post by: Funk on August 12, 2015, 03:44:33 am
I actually came up with an ID system in my mind last night...You forgot the glory, i know it can be hard we have some much of it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 12:18:31 pm
I just realized the gun is on the wrong side.
FUCK.
Post by: Sheb on August 12, 2015, 12:19:45 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 12, 2015, 03:44:01 pm
Sounds like a revision action is needed. :p
No just drive the tank backwards! Nothing bad could happen!
Post by: Kashyyk on August 12, 2015, 04:07:03 pm
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 04:15:59 pm
Drive backwards you say? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_(tank_destroyer))I'm familliar with this one, I can't actually wait to see it in War Thunder, cos in WoT it doesn't drive backwards as fast as it should (but still faster than other tanks), also British made a bunch of vehicles like that, IIRC.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 12, 2015, 04:22:34 pm
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 04:29:59 pm
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 08:30:46 pm
(http://i.imgbox.com/2wkLQ3MX.png)
This is the only know photo of AS-T15 "Glorious" and it's crew, proably shoot somewhere before September 1918, when the crew got awarded Medal Of Good Hunting for high number of casualties inflicted on enemy. By modern historians they're considered first and most successful tank aces of Arstotzka but, because of political reasons, they were never called ones in official documents. With over 50 enemy vehicles and emplacements elminated in years 1916-1918, they are most effective tank crew to this point. During the offensive of 1918 they were leading the spearhead into last enemy positions on plains of Forenia, but were knocked out before reaching the desert, because of artillery fire (to this day it's unknown if it was Moskurgian or accidental Arstotzkan fire, due to "Glorious" pushing very far into enemy positions and lack of communication) that disabled the tank.
The crew of Glorious consisted of:
Fyodor "Crunchies" Billotzic (leftmost, standing beside the "Glorious"), the driver and de-facto commander of the vehicle, he excelled at both functions, and possesed the most magnificent moustache amongs the crew members. He liked to think he had French origins, despite there is no evidence of that, and he was truly an example of old-school French officer, never surrendering to enemy. Before he joined the Glorious Army, he was hunting tigers with his automobile. His nickname comes from the word he used to describe enemy soldiers very (like, all the time) often. In 1918, after the tank was immobilized, he and Cutter went to contact main Arstotzkan forces. What exactly happened is unknown, but intelligence says that he got captured by Moskurgians, and sentenced to death by tigers.
John "Cutter" Grendel(center, sitting on the gun), the gunner and on-paper commander of the vehicle. Descendant of one of English nobles (he quickly learnt to drink Arstotzkan vodka instead of tea, but he always used his porcelain cup to do it) that decided to stay on the continent, he was most educated of crewmembers. This caused him to be assigned as the commander of the tank, but he gladly let the Billotzic do the actual job, so he could focus on shooting enemy targets. Despite his skills in doing that, he enjoyed swordmanship. He actually managed to capture an Moskurgian scimitar which he frequently used in challenges he gave to captured Moskurgian officers. Before joining the Glorious Army, he was hunting tigers for fur and also was first (and only) Arstotzkan fencing master. While it's unknown what exactly happened, he was found dead about five kilometers from the tank, holding his Scimitar, with numerous dead Moskurgians around him, dozens of holes and cuts in him and chopped off arm and head. The head was never found, and his arm was later discovered under pile of four bodies, all impaled by another scimitar his hand was still holding.
Artyom "Coalmaster" Korchasko (rightmost, with the shovel), he was the fireman of the crew. He was responsible for much of the tank combat performance and the fact they managed to live so long. He took care of the engine himself, causing it to be less prone to cooking the crew and actually managed to squeeze more horsepower out of it. His mechanical knowledge allowed him to set up an Vodka distillery in the tank with Sergiej Kolobanovski, but the former was more skilled in making said beverage. He was an train coalmaster (known for making it go so fast that tigers couldn't outrun it) before he joined the Glorious Army, and he initially volunteered for infantry, but after he lost his leg to crazed Moskurgian officer with a sword (which caused him to sleep as far from Cutter as possible, also looking with distrust everytime he sharpened or even touched his scimitar) he got moved to tank corps. After the tank got disabled, he defended it from Moskurgians and tigers with shovel, until help arrived, despite being badly burned (he was in right coal chamber when "Glorious" got hit). After being discharged (and not accepted again, due to his burns, lost leg and left arm bitten off by a tiger) he became the master distiller of Arstotzkan Five-Star Vodka, which caused it to become most popular Vodka in Forenia. In a interview he stated that his Vodka is nothing compared to the one made by Spiritman. Few years later he apparently commited suicide, but the public belives that he was assasinated.
Viktor "Left" Kalugin (on top of the tank, with flag) was the (ironically) right machinegunnner of the tank. True Arstotzkan body and mind, he was also tasked with safekeeping the squad flag. He was youngest member of the crew, but he was also pretty good at shooting Moskurgians (he wasn't drunk most of time, unlike Sergiej) despite the horrible conditions. Before joining the Glorious Army he studied tigrisology and practical applications of weaponry to keep tiger population down. He was first to die when artillery shell struck the right side of the tank, causing the hot steam, flames and sharpnel to unload on him, but the damage also let the rest of crew come out almost unscratched (only the Artyom got burned), as the steam vented through the side.
Sergiej "Spiritman" Kolobanovski was the left machinegunner of the tank and best distiller in the crew. He frequently made vodka and refilled old Arstotzkan Five-Star bottles to sell to other units or use for themselves. Perpetually drunk, was the second thing (the first being his vodka) that tied the whole crew together. He was also known for being able to contact "unofficial" supply lines of the army. He possesed the second most magnificent moustache in the crew. Most of the time he wore a distinctive red scarf, which he apparently got from a girl. Before he joined the Glorious Army he was a prospering farmer and Voyt of a village in northern parts of Arstotzka, known for frequently organizing self-defence militia and tiger hunting parties. He got badly wounded when laying the covering fire for Crunchies and Grendel when they broke through Moskurgian encirclement. He died out of wounds in field hospital few days after.
All of them were posthumously rewarded Medal Of Glory, highest Arstotzkan military decoration.
Spoiler: The image in unedited glory (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on August 12, 2015, 08:42:59 pm
Post by: Andres on August 12, 2015, 08:48:04 pm
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 08:52:32 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 12, 2015, 08:54:00 pm
By the way, I need a new idea.
How about the mountaintop scuffle between our two countries' agents? :P
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 08:56:21 pm
How about the mountaintop scuffle between our two countries' agents? :PNo promises.
Post by: Andres on August 12, 2015, 09:05:39 pm
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 09:09:14 pm
What about Andrei Zhuyev killing Husayn the Lion, or Konstantin the Bear and the time he buried an entire Moskurg squad in an avalance with his mortar? Maybe Konstantin the Bear with his MC17 mowing down Moskurgs in the Jungle?Yeah, maybe...
If you give me links, I admit that I haven't read most of the damn battle reports, I only joined the bandwagon like three years ago. D:
Post by: Andres on August 12, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Husayn the Lion killed by strafing fire. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6411846#msg6411846) It doesn't specifically mention Andrei Zhuyev as the killer but why not? The planes used at the time were A19Cs - triplanes with an AC18 on each wing.
Konstantin the Bear and his Wunderwaffe. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6413979#msg6413979) It's in transparent text at the end of the Jungle report.
Post by: Kot on August 12, 2015, 09:30:42 pm
linksThanks.
I'll do it
EDIT:
Also, not all of it, of course.
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 12:08:57 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 13, 2015, 12:27:04 am
Oh yeah, just to point it out Arstotzka, our tech list isn't updated that much. And given the description on the Sorraia's usage by infantry, I would note that it would assumably be cheap as well.
...
Post by: Andres on August 13, 2015, 12:35:11 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 12:53:51 am
Post by: Andres on August 13, 2015, 07:52:41 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 13, 2015, 11:20:04 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 11:22:43 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 11:22:57 am
The same thing happened with Artztotska and numbers/apostrophes.
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 11:27:29 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 11:28:40 am
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 11:30:25 am
Submit the T15 to the British instead of the 1909.Only if it's painted in tiger stripes.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Whereas Arstotzkans are unimaginative clones, because they and everything Arstotzkan is assigned a serial code with excessive hyphens.Moskurgs fuck tigers.
They're also descendent from tigers, as proven by someone else before.
They're essentially... tiggers.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 11:32:46 am
They are the only ones who will be left after this war :P
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 11:38:48 am
You know the wonderful thing about Tiggers?>implying your techno-shamancy council drawing designs on piece of bark with stolen crayons can outwit our proper design department with things like paperwork and paper holders.
They are the only ones who will be left after this war :P
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 11:39:56 am
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 11:47:15 am
Honestly, really, can you stop invading the thread? I mean, it's always been quite clear that you all read it, but stop disturbing the thread.What about we raid their thread and discover they're making slanted armour?
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 11:47:59 am
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 11:48:45 am
besides, we have frost giants under our capital, so I really, really hope that was an hypotetical.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 11:50:04 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 11:51:21 am
Ebbor: I'm sorry. I only did it for fun, but if you really don't like non-Arstotzkans posting there I'll stop.
It happened repeatedly for the last few pages.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 11:52:22 am
Because we can't use that info. Also, you misunderstood what they're doing.Oh right, they're making slat armour.
It just proves how much I care about that thread.
I really hope the frost giants weren't hypothetical, as we can use them to freeze the desert so our guns won't jam in the sand!
besides, we have frost giants under our capital, so I really, really hope that was an hypotetical.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 11:52:37 am
@Kot: the frost giants aren't hypothetical. They are what gets unleashed on us if we spy on their thread and expose their current design widely so that there is no way we can ignore it while trying to revise/design.
last time we had no punishment because we had already finished the discussion and there were some very obvious choices to make no matter what they designed. This time we are still in an open discussion.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 11:55:33 am
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 11:56:36 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 13, 2015, 11:56:44 am
*whistles*
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 13, 2015, 11:56:50 am
i specifically said i'm fine with this if there's no salt
sheb get out of moskurg
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 11:57:56 am
http://www.quicktopic.comI still think it's a bad idea that'll kill of the game. Recent situation is making me doubt.
*whistles*
sheb get out of moskurgBeing a tiny, tiny bit hypocritical there.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 11:59:10 am
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 12:01:55 pm
very well, I shall not be salty. Just as long as the frost giants spare my house.Frost giants are your friends.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 12:06:57 pm
very well, I shall not be salty. Just as long as the frost giants spare my house.Honestly, I think the Moskurgians will be getting dust devils this time.
Post by: Tiruin on August 13, 2015, 12:07:32 pm
May I ask what the obsession with tigers is all about?Moskurg in-joke. ;3
Also I am probably gonna fan-art this (but I don't think it'll happen due to my perfectionism x_x).
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 13, 2015, 12:07:55 pm
go take a breather, sheesh
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 12:09:24 pm
the latest post, if you really finished discussing in your thread, could be excused. What bothered us more, I think ( speaking for myself now) is that you and evilcherry were following our thread so closely to immediately reply to stuff happening in it. Which gives a feeling of a remarkable lack of private space in a game in which we aren't supposed to know what the other side is doing in the current turn.Its not what you made in this turn that changed my decision. That's Kashyyk's argument which changed my mind (and I'm not really convinced, but the argument is sound enough for me to make the deal. Besides, some rule clarifications made my original proposal quite useless).
@Kot: the frost giants aren't hypothetical. They are what gets unleashed on us if we spy on their thread and expose their current design widely so that there is no way we can ignore it while trying to revise/design.
last time we had no punishment because we had already finished the discussion and there were some very obvious choices to make no matter what they designed. This time we are still in an open discussion.
Anyway I think a quicker turn can give players less boredom and unleash their spies on each other. Not to mention that I DO make some game lore.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 12:10:52 pm
@Tiruin: More like an out-joke now really. And I'm totally up for the fan-art idea.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 12:12:12 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 12:13:26 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 12:13:59 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 12:16:10 pm
Sheb and Sensei know. You'll also know soon as it looks like it's going through. Although I'm not sure why evilcherry decided to bring that up.I'm pretty sure it's because you're apparently developing Slat Armor (as Kot said), which just so happens to be designed to defeat HEAT rounds, which was the leading suggestion at the time in our thread at the time of your incursion.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 12:17:41 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2015, 12:17:54 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 12:19:10 pm
uh. Evilcherry, I have no idea of what you voted for, nor what kashyyk proposed. I haven't read your thread.Out of boredom, and out of Sheb intruding in our thread. Well I decided on some (harmless in intention) banter, but someone felt really offended.
I guess some more stringent restraints are needed for the future.
I thought I got enough restraint to base arguments on only what we should know. YMMV, I guess, but if someone felt this is enough to unleash the Dune Worm on, I apologize.Sheb and Sensei know. You'll also know soon as it looks like it's going through. Although I'm not sure why evilcherry decided to bring that up.I'm pretty sure it's because you're apparently developing Slat Armor (as Kot said), which just so happens to be designed to defeat HEAT rounds, which was the leading suggestion at the time in our thread at the time of your incursion.
For fairness' sake I'll excuse from Moskurgan discussions until next turn. Agent Sandworm needs a sleep.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 12:21:50 pm
@Tiruin: More like an out-joke now really. And I'm totally up for the fan-art idea.We should make a list of all the fan art and stuff people posted in this thread, honestly.
EDIT:
Fun fact:
More drama - less fanart.
Post by: Elfeater on August 13, 2015, 12:23:36 pm
EDIT: I wrote post twice and meant one to be a vote*
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 12:26:18 pm
You know a simple answer is to stop poking into each others threads, we have an OOC thread for banter. I only look in the other thread upon occasion, and after we have decided on our design and revision, to see what our newest equipment is going up against. If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Kindred brother from another nation, I completely agree.
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 12:26:43 pm
You know a simple answer is to stop poking into each others threads, we have an OOC thread for banter. I only look in the other thread upon occasion, and after we have decided on our design and revision, to see what our newest equipment is going up against. If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.As Sensei said a faster turnaround will help.
So Tallies and results, Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 12:27:57 pm
If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Both sides would lose most of their players, hehe.
Post by: Elfeater on August 13, 2015, 12:29:49 pm
If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Both sides would lose most of their players, hehe.
I don't think so actually, it's a design game, and this one is doing almost unprecedentedly well.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 12:30:54 pm
Quote
Out of boredom, and out of Sheb intruding in our thread. Well I decided on some (harmless in intention) banter, but someone felt really offended.I must remind you off 1926, when you guys made an extremely big fuzz about something similar, despite the fact that there was no real reason to assume any harm had happened.
Spoiler: Recap (click to show/hide)
Unlike this turn, where your leading proposal is a direct counter to our leading proposal. Bit more reason to be suspicious.
Hey, we had shaped charge RPG from last turn. It makes total sense to defeat those RPG.Our shaped charges are non aerodynamic and only works at extreme close range and on a direct, square hit.
I remain suspicious.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 12:32:48 pm
Hopefully just you.R-r-rude.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 12:34:58 pm
Honestly, I think the only thing that would change is that people'd stop blatantly intruding in the thread.If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Both sides would lose most of their players, hehe.Hopefully just you.
I don't think so actually, it's a design game, and this one is doing almost unprecedentedly well.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 12:39:44 pm
Do you seriously think that if someone is already doing it with malicious intent (not that I say anyone around here is doing that), it would stop them at all?Honestly, I think the only thing that would change is that people'd stop blatantly intruding in the thread.If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Both sides would lose most of their players, hehe.Hopefully just you.
I don't think so actually, it's a design game, and this one is doing almost unprecedentedly well.
But yeah, we could agree that we should STOP BEING SPIES instead of STOP USING THE KNOWLEDGE (though, if we made something that would work well against the other side new design by accident, we would still be considered cheaters).
Post by: Elfeater on August 13, 2015, 12:46:30 pm
All I am saying is the double think is real here, I'm sure both sides have issues with people going into the other sides thread.Do you seriously think that if someone is already doing it with malicious intent (not that I say anyone around here is doing that), it would stop them at all?Honestly, I think the only thing that would change is that people'd stop blatantly intruding in the thread.If you do peek in to the other thread before your side is finished, you shouldn't post in yours or post even, lets keep it clean guys, and leave the *espionage* to the spies.Both sides would lose most of their players, hehe.Hopefully just you.
I don't think so actually, it's a design game, and this one is doing almost unprecedentedly well.
But yeah, we could agree that we should STOP BEING SPIES instead of STOP USING THE KNOWLEDGE (though, if we made something that would work well against the other side new design by accident, we would still be considered cheaters).
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 01:11:17 pm
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear posing next to the tiger he hunted down in the jungle (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 01:12:12 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 13, 2015, 01:13:49 pm
While you wait for Konstantin The Bear killing dirty Moskurgs...I know who that guy is, its Konstantine the Bear.If it isin't clear, this is meant to be a joke. If you don't know who the guy is, you have poor face recognition or forgot to check the url.Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear posing next to the tiger he hunted down in the jungle (click to show/hide)
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 01:21:31 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 01:27:10 pm
Medvedev isn't happy for Konstantin stealing his surname.No, it was the Medvedev who stole Konstantin surname.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 04:19:39 pm
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear on a casual patrol through mountains (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear, only Arstotzkan hydroplane (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear on a bear (click to show/hide)
I swear I will make actual image soon. This is funnier tho.
BONUS:
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear, head of Arstotzkan Tiger breeding project (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 04:33:42 pm
( and, does he ever wear a shirt?)
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 04:34:27 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 04:36:53 pm
That last one is a lie! Moskurg uses glorious lever-action rifles, and that one has a bolt!Fixed.
EDIT:
Spoiler: Konstantin The Bear gathering intelligence on US experimental submarines (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bonus! Rare image of Moskurgian in his natural habitat! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on August 13, 2015, 05:59:58 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 06:01:56 pm
Post by: Andres on August 13, 2015, 06:04:36 pm
/me looks at the Arstotzkan thread, giggles a bit in glee :3I'm just as disappointed in my team as you are giddy.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 06:06:50 pm
This will be ironic in hindsight (because we don't know things YET)./me looks at the Arstotzkan thread, giggles a bit in glee :3I'm just as disappointed in my team as you are giddy.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 06:07:57 pm
by the way I forgot to say it when the whole discussion came up, because we were busy making arguments about the spies... but that is a clever idea to protect from our hand held anti tank weapons.
Clever both for you who adopted it and for those who thought of it in the first place.
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 06:10:59 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 06:16:03 pm
You designed a new version of the Rhino, but (wait for it), failed to give it any armor piercing ammo.
Your armorpiercing APHE shells are noted as being too large, recoilless rifles have too low muzzle velocity for conventional AP, and you don't have HEAT.
Basically, you made a big firecracker,.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 06:19:11 pm
It doesn't help that our weapon expert left to join you.
or you are speaking about our decisions to send stuff to the factions?
or a spy action!
argh! I want the next turn, so I can understand.
pre-edit: a new rhino without armor piercing? isn't that very outdated?
it seems we all went to the side of sillyness this turn :P
well, since I am not in the field of spying and all our actions are done, if you don't mind I'd like to read as well, even if the turn hasn't been posted. May I?
Post by: tryrar on August 13, 2015, 06:22:36 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 06:24:37 pm
Basically, you made a big firecracker,.Haha what.
Also, what the fuck is that APSH you guys mentioned before?
I have no clue why you guys are giggling at RAPs, they are used by every army in the world right now to boost artillery range. ??They're tiggers, they giggle even when they see something shiny.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 13, 2015, 06:26:25 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 06:26:53 pm
It doesn't exist, AFAIK. Probably why it wasn't included in the finalized design.That's what I thought.
Post by: andrea on August 13, 2015, 06:27:36 pm
of course, getting both longer range artillery AND a good laugh is a double victory.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 06:39:31 pm
well, yes. But no matter how effective, the thought of boosting a 1912 artilelry piece by adding rockets to its projectiles is still silly and slightly hilarious.Yeah, though
of course, getting both longer range artillery AND a good laugh is a double victory.
Anyway, I checked if their gun is actually that shitty.
The M18 Recoiless rifle designed in 1942 and noted for unusually high muzzle velocity for a recoilles rifle, had 365 m/s of it. Even smallest of AT guns have usually at least 900 m/s.
Oh God Emperor on His Golden Shithole, the Moskurgs actually did it. They made worst AT weapon ever.
EDIT:
By the way, APHE would be even less effective in a recoiless gun, since it still needs to break through armor and it's lighter than regular AP.
Post by: Sensei on August 13, 2015, 06:48:22 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 06:50:25 pm
Quote
If the Moskurgian weapon is expensive, as it should be due to beltfed tech being expensive, then the 1910. Otherwise 1924.Proably the mortar for Communists (I may be wrong).
AS-T15 painted in tiger stripes. Proably it will go straight to museum, but hey, it's first tank ever to be used in combat!
EDIT: T15 for British of course. And MG for the non-Communist Chinese.
EDIT2:
#Hype
Post by: Iituem on August 13, 2015, 07:48:18 pm
Spoiler: Edited Moskurg Piece (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 08:01:27 pm
Too Long Did ReadI never thought Belle is a good name for a tiger, but hey, >Moskurgs.
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 08:02:20 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 08:04:32 pm
If that's true, then we've managed to domesticate tigers so well they can do precision industrial work. And our men can lift TIGERS :PKonstantin The Bear can lift tigers too, one with each hand and leg and another with his head. Also, the "precision industrial work" is questionable when it comes to Moskurg ammunition.
Post by: Taricus on August 13, 2015, 08:09:35 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 08:17:10 pm
Maybe. Doesn't really matter in the long run given how many arstotzkans die by tiger-manufactured rounds :PAnd even more Moskurgs die from tiger-related STDs (http://i.imgbox.com/WEHfO6Hb.png), so that's a fair trade.
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 08:26:04 pm
Moskurg:
Hippo to Commies, Sorraria to Puyi, One piece of every single model we have ever manufactured (and in stock) for Britain (and tiger on Tigers)
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 08:40:46 pm
Damn I thought he was making a Battle Report.
Post by: evilcherry on August 13, 2015, 08:43:25 pm
>Sensai is offline.Sensei.
Damn I thought he was making a Battle Report.
He's on US Pacific Time AFAIK.
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 08:52:55 pm
So we still have time before he goes to sleep.>Sensai is offline.Sensai.
Damn I thought he was making a Battle Report.
He's on US Pacific Time AFAIK.
Yaay.
Post by: Sensei on August 13, 2015, 09:35:47 pm
Post by: Kot on August 13, 2015, 10:04:25 pm
Yeah, I had it part way written, and then dinner time happened. Feeling sick and moving slow today. Hang in there!You still will be proably faster than new piece of "art".
EDIT:
It's coming out worse than I expected sadly, proably because it includes some Moskurgs.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 12:24:46 am
The plane may or may not be Zhuyev one (Five kills, just like somewhere in early 1920), and the guy in that armored car may or may be not that Moskurgian armored car ace Husayn The Lion (which happened to die in 1920, RIP only Moskurgian that's not a tigger).
Also, the "ground" is very damn shitty (http://i.imgbox.com/ECAWuN5P.png) (also the image is a bit older) so I had to cover it up with shitton of effects and I'm still not happy with it.
Generally, I think this is the worst one I've made but I can't think of a way to easily fix it and I put too much work (compared to simple linework for bunch of Konstantin The Bear images, I can't really convert Putins face into image) to not post it now.
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 01:00:15 am
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 01:00:24 am
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 01:00:40 am
The British receive schematics and samples of two weapons: From Arstotzka, the AS-T15, and from Moskurg, the T2 Breaker tank. The British are sort of bemused with the AS-T15, but they say it will find a nice home in a museum somewhere. They're fairly impressed by the Breaker tank, and take extensive notes for their own future designs. "It is good to know that Moskurg can still be counted on as a friend of the Empire." In Moskurg people whisper, critical of the trade of such valuable technology.
The Chinese
The Royal Army receives the M3 Sorraia and the AS-1924. The lighter, more effective M3 Sorraia is a clear choice, and the Royal Army rushes it to production. Moskurg gains an Expense Credit. The communist army, looking for an anti-emplacement weapon, considers both the Hippo and the AS-1911 mortar. They deem the AS-1911 easier to use against emplacements due to its indirect fire and light weight, although the hippo is nearly chosen for its ability to fire directly into covered bunkers. Arstotzka gains one ore, until 1932.
Capitols
Moskurg's capitol is Moskurg, and is well known for its tiger parades, and stories of tigers tearing apart traitors, and is comprised of the boroughs of Alstrad, Erching, and Greater Moskurg. Arsotzka's capitol is AS-CC-77, a name of a sort given by people who expect to be building a better model next year. The main portion of the city is organized into even, square blocks with museums and parks, but the 'old city' is a tangle of winding roads. Railways lead to other cities, AS-CM-02 is an important one, the Great Military Base where every soldier is trained.
Moskurg's tiger story takes the cake. Moskurg earns an Espionage Credit.
Balance notes
Moskurg figured out belt-fed weapons by the time they made the AS-1924, they are no longer complex. Very Expensive T2 Breakers cannot receive further expensive components (scopes, radios) without becoming a National Effort- I'm sticking to my previous stated rules on expense. I might like to do something which allows you to use expensive equipment with a Very Expensive vehicle -I originally considered a system in which an Expensive vehicle could have all the Expensive add-on components it wanted for free- but I'm not sure how to apply it consistently compared to expensive components in vehicles themselves, EG Arstotzka's original T25 engines.
Y'all bein' too salty now
Quit poking around in eachother's threads so much. I maintain that I won't make a rule against reading the other thread, because it's unenforceable. But could you please refrain from posting in eachother's threads? Furthermore, when the other faction does act so rudely, don't get super pissed about it, ok? It's just a game. Some of you, I'm not naming names, get far too worked up about real or perceived unfairness.
National Sport
High command has decided that to stimulate tourism, they will institute a national sport, building arenas and providing equipment as necessary. What will your nation's national sport be? Best suggestion earns their country one Expense Credit and some annoying tourists.
1929 Battle Report
This year, Arstotzka contrived a new system for decrypting Tiger's Whisper messages, the AS-C29, and at the same time managed to reduce the manufacturing cost of their radio and its transistors. Its size is now its main prohibitive factor. They also designed rocket-assisted artillery shells, improving the range of normal and AP shells in their AS-1912 and DT25 guns. Moskurg designed an improved recoilless rifle, the Hippo, which is reloadable and fires from the shoulder with their AP/APHE rounds. They have also invented slatted armor to protect against RPGs, and mounted it to their T2 Breaker tanks. It's an effective defense against magnetic shaped charges as well.
The war in the air is quite entirely the same as it was last year. Arstotzka still gets more air-to-air and air-to-ground kills than Moskurg, and their dive bombers continue to be a big threat to T2 Breakers, SPATs, and other artillery, emplacements and vehicles.
On the communications front, Arstotzka has managed to reliably crack the Moskurg Tiger's Whisper code, using their AS-C29 machine. Officers in the field can decrypt Moskurg messages, and pass it along to their fellows. However, Arstotzka lacks a good cipher of their own, so both sides now face the issue that their radio messages are easily overheard and written orders can be read if captured. Thus, radios are only used for short term orders, and major army movement decisions are distributed by messenger at the time they need to be given.
In the desert, the armor clash continues. Arstotzka's tanks and tank destroyers outnumber Moskurg T2 Breakers. With the addition of slatted armor, AS-RPG28's have become less effective against T2's. Usually a first hit will destroy a section of slat armor, and a second hit rocket needs to hit in the same place. The slat armor doesn't provide measurable benefit against anti-tank cannons. The new Hippo Recoilless Rifle is used by Moskurg soldiers, with APHE rounds, to fight off Arstotzkan T25's. It can reliably penetrate from medium range, but remains difficult to aim with at that distance. The new reloadable barrel is found to be unreliable after repeated uses, there are several incidents in which a barrel bursts after fifty or more rounds are fired from it, and sometimes the shell will get stuck in a deformed barrel, leaving the wad to shoot out the back and giving a soldier the entire kick of a 2.2 inch cannon backwards, launching the entire weapon at the enemy (usually without effect) and causing injury to the user. The Hippo is easily enough replaced, but this makes soldiers unwilling to use it despite it being relatively effective. Moskurg snipers are less valuable in the defense of tanks now that they are largely immune to both Arstotzkan RPGs and magnetic shaped charges. Moskurg infantry is more successful against Arstotzkan tanks, using APHE loaded Rhino and (when ordered, and the commander is watching) Hippo rifles, getting a number of kills. Arstotzka loads their tanks and AS-1912 artillery guns with rocket assisted shells when they need extra range, and this means that Arstotzkan artillery can affect enemies further away (though not as far as the B2 Destroyer) and their DT25 cannons can be effective from about as far away as APHE loaded Breaker cannons, but suffer from some loss of accuracy. This means tanks on both sides are still most effective at mid range. Moskurg Tank Commander Char has his tank custom fitted with an Eagle Sight, and gets eight kill against AS-T25's this year by ambushing from long range. Moskurg infantry also performs well, with some cavalry adopting the Hippo and firing it from horseback at groups of motorcycles and tanks alike. However, Arstotzka has the numerical and air support advantage for their tanks. Arstotzka gains ground (3/4).
In the mountains, combat is mostly the same, with some Moskurg soldiers adopting the more portable per-shot Hippo over the Rhino, though this is tempered by its reputation for suddenly exploding. Moskurg snipers are deadly, still, although this is tempered by their blue uniforms. Despite the lack of private radio communication, Moskurg continues to gain ground here, sniping is just a very effective tactic. Moskurg gains ground (3/4).
In the jungle, Moskurg trades their radio communication advantage for an improved infantry-armor situation. The Hippo is particularly prone to dangerous failure in the wet jungle, and soldiers "accidentally" drop them down tall waterfalls onto sharp rocks in rapids to prevent their hands from being broken. The Rhino sees use still, and is fairly effective in the close range engagements that occur in the jungle. The slat armor on T2 Breakers is very effective at thwarting infantry attack long enough for machine gunners in tank crews to get a bead on infantrymen trying to kill a tank with RPGs or shaped charges. This gives Moskurg an advantage on the roads, which allows them to gain ground (3/4).
Agent Sandworm steals Flak plans from AS-CC-77, and hides herself in a crate of oats bound north on an AS-CV22 ship. While she is hiding, the crew receives orders to dump their entire load of oats overboard to prevent the spreading of a crop disease to the plains. Thinking the crate is being unloaded, she waits patiently as the crate is carried above deck, and then suddenly finds herself a few feet underwater. The plans are soaked and unrecoverable. Agent promised Crucible steals plans to the B2 Breaker and plans to hand them off by disguising as a Moskurg pilot and flying a Model 2 Hornet over a camp, and then dropping an empty bomb shell with the plans before returning to Moskurg for his next mission. However, a diligent Moskurg Inspection Officer checked the bombs loaded on his Hornet, found a damaged fuze on the bomb, and replaced it with a new bomb. Arstotzkan high command was not impressed with Promised Crucible's performance this year.
In the United States, the Black Tuesday stock market crash occurs, but people aren't calling it the great depression yet.
You may now begin scribbling random shapes on blueprint paper for 1930.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 01:03:02 am
Moskurg figured out belt-fed weapons by the time they made the AS-1924, they are no longer complex.Sensai pls.
EDIT:
The new Hippo Recoilless Rifle is used by Moskurg soldiers, with APHE rounds, to fight off Arstotzkan T25's. It can reliably penetrate from medium range, but remains difficult to aim with at that distance.I beg you fucking pardon.
How the hell an weapon which in no way has more than 300m/s (and that's stretching it) of muzzle velocity is supposed to penetrate "medium thicknes RHA"? APHE rounds don't magically cause it to penetrate, if anything they're worse at penetrating than AP, since thanks to explosive filling they're lighter. If AP doesn't penetrate, APHE doesn't too.
EDIT2:
some cavalry adopting the Hippo and firing it from horsebackYou're fucking kidding me, right?
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 01:10:47 am
Post by: Elfeater on August 14, 2015, 01:13:29 am
They honestly could be spalling the metal, which can incapacitate tanks, would crew, etc.Moskurg figured out belt-fed weapons by the time they made the AS-1924, they are no longer complex.Sensai pls.
EDIT:The new Hippo Recoilless Rifle is used by Moskurg soldiers, with APHE rounds, to fight off Arstotzkan T25's. It can reliably penetrate from medium range, but remains difficult to aim with at that distance.I beg you fucking pardon.
How the hell an weapon which in no way has more than 300m/s (and that's stretching it) of muzzle velocity is supposed to penetrate "medium thicknes RHA"? APHE rounds don't magically cause it to penetrate, if anything they're worse at penetrating than AP, since thanks to explosive filling they're lighter. If AP doesn't penetrate, APHE doesn't too.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 01:17:23 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 01:18:19 am
This is the most comparable recoiless gun considering the date, size and caliber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance,_RCL,_3.45_in). If armor on our tanks isin't made of tigershit, 180 m/s aren't going to spall it.
Geez dude, what did Sensei just say abgout being salty about this? :PCommon sense man, common sense.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 01:21:02 am
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 01:21:28 am
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 01:24:32 am
Hey Sensei, two years ago we were at 2/4 in the Desert. You said that unless Moskurg managed to hold us, we'd be fighting in their cities soon. The next year we were stalled. This year, we managed to completely make it to 3/4. Does that mean we're fighting in Moskurg cities now?Good remembering! Yes, next turn in East Desert will be city combat, not open desert.
Post by: Elfeater on August 14, 2015, 01:33:06 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 01:42:14 am
If the Hippo hits the turret, or even the flat side armor, the crew inside isn't going to have a good day, and we probably can out maneuver you in the desert for the most part, like you would be able to in the tundra, as it is home town. So we show up fire a couple shots into a column of tanks, and pull back. Got a few dead Arstotzkan's.If Hippo is firing APHE to kill tanks, the crew inside is at most going to notice someone is shooting at them (though maybe, MAYBE, you could get the armored car, since it's aluminium). The most deadly use of it would be proably scoring direct hits on infantry. You should understand that recoiless rifles in basically any form is useless when firing AP or APHE, just because they lack the required projectile velocity. Fucking hell, you would have better chance knocking out a tank with pure HE than AP or APHE when using a recoiless rifle. Without HEAT, HESH or whatever other round that doesn't rely on velocity to penetrate, you won't be using it to kill tanks.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 01:43:51 am
There's one problem. Namely, you haven't invented a code :P
We have cardboard card with numbers on it, just like you did....
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 01:45:44 am
That said, any further complaints about the state of Recoilless Rifle technology will result in it becoming irrationally faster, more powerful and more accurate with assistance of the Sand Devils and their ancient, forbidden knowledge. The discussion is closed.
Also, Arstotzka does not have a (reliable) cipher of any kind at the moment.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 01:46:16 am
(though maybe, MAYBE, you could get the armored car, since it's aluminium).You're new, so this mistake is understandable, but it doesn't matter that it's made of aluminium. It's just as good as RHA. See here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152099.msg6411846#msg6411846)
What's important is that it has Light Armour with Medium armour in the front. Our T25 has Medium armour all around.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 01:46:28 am
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 01:48:03 am
Wut? We have exactly the kind of cypher they had last turn. They don't have any mean to decode it.If we have the same kind of cypher as they do, then they already have a means to decode it since they're the ones that made the cypher.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 01:48:42 am
It's a stretch, but at the end of the day what's happening is Moskurg's recoilless rifles are more effective than their real-life contemporaries.I'm suprised the Chinese choosen the mortar over the rifle, considering the Moskurgs just proposed them a weapon that breaks the laws of fucking physics.
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 01:50:10 am
...Hey Sensei, if the Arstotzkans keep complaining, would we be allowed to basically turn the average moskurgan soldier into a supersoldier? :P
EDIT: Mind you, I kinda want to start taunting Arstotzka like a frenchman over the radios. It's be hilarious :P
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 01:50:58 am
Wut? We have exactly the kind of cypher they had last turn. They don't have any mean to decode it.If we have the same kind of cypher as they do, then they already have a means to decode it since they're the ones that made the cypher.
Nah, because the cypher is one that depend on people having the same cards.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 01:52:43 am
Moskurg: Better than physics.This would certainly help with your slowly forming opinion of cheaters.
...Hey Sensei, if the Arstotzkans keep complaining, would we be allowed to basically turn the average moskurgan soldier into a supersoldier? :P
EDIT: Mind you, I kinda want to start taunting Arstotzka like a frenchman over the radios. It's be hilarious :P
Post by: QuakeIV on August 14, 2015, 01:53:29 am
Given that we are in their cities, will this disrupt their production any?
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 01:56:02 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 14, 2015, 01:57:43 am
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 01:58:53 am
...Hey Sensei, if the Arstotzkans keep complaining, would we be allowed to basically turn the average moskurgan soldier into a supersoldier? :PNO! The only one who's complaining now is Kot. Don't damn our entire country for the actions of one guy.
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 01:59:44 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 02:02:37 am
Last turn, we were winning on the roads because of our more numerous tanks, now we lose because they counter our most ineffective weapon?
It's a stretch, but at the end of the day what's happening is Moskurg's recoilless rifles are more effective than their real-life contemporaries.
That said, any further complaints about the state of Recoilless Rifle technology will result in it becoming irrationally faster, more powerful and more accurate with assistance of the Sand Devils and their ancient, forbidden knowledge. The discussion is closed.
Also, Arstotzka does not have a (reliable) cipher of any kind at the moment.
I'm a bit annoyed with that considering we spent a full design action on this. Might have recieved something more than just the result of a meager revision.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 02:09:12 am
On that note, I find the sutuation in the Jungle weird.Our 1909 is actually our most ineffective weapon, but yeah it does seem pretty weird. Oh well. Just go with the flow I guess.
Last turn, we were winning on the roads because of our more numerous tanks, now we lose because they counter our most ineffective weapon?
I'm a bit annoyed with that considering we spent a full design action on this. Might have recieved something more than just the result of a meager revision.GM said that's enough. Also, we were developing rocket technology and we developed it so well that it became cheap. Besides, their Hippo sucks pretty badly and it was made with the Design phase.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 02:17:57 am
Since "develloping a cypher" in this case means printing a bunch of cards with letters on them, it doesn't really seem fair to require a revision or whatever to use it. I guess I just would have liked it if Sensei had been more clear beforehand that we still needed to do something to get a code of our own.
As for the complexity of components, why don't you integrate it with resources cost in one cost system? The Expense of a particular piece of kit depend on the sums of its Costs Levels(CL). For each resource you lack, the equipment gains one CL. For each Expensive component, it gais one CL, two for Very Expensive components. Inherent complexities in the design can add CLs, while deliberate use of poor materials can remove one CL.
A piece of kit with one CL is Expensive, one with three CL is Very Expensive, on with 6 or more CL is a National Effort.
Then just let players during the production phase decide what to do.
The advantage of this system is that it can still let you add some expensive components to a vehicle without bumping it to Very Expensive or National Effort, but doesn't make extra component free either. It also mitigate the current issue that we are always trying to aim for on ressource short of the next expense level, which ain't really realist.
Post by: Hawk132 on August 14, 2015, 02:29:33 am
Moskurg Tank Commander CharIs his tank 3 times faster than the others?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 02:35:26 am
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 02:38:38 am
His tank's turret is certainly faster than the others. Also, it seems Moskurg has perfected cloning technology. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharClone) :PMoskurg Tank Commander CharIs his tank 3 times faster than the others?
Hey Sensei, can you update Arstotzka's resource count? I want to read the description that comes from having 5 Ore.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 02:39:24 am
Also, one question: our AS-1912A mention that "its size makes it Expensive". Is that an holdover from before? I though size issue were included in the resource cost now?It's a holdover.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 02:46:20 am
I had expected better of my fellow Arstotzkans. Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? You have no more courage than my cat (and he is very cowardly indeed)....Hey Sensei, if the Arstotzkans keep complaining, would we be allowed to basically turn the average moskurgan soldier into a supersoldier? :PNO! The only one who's complaining now is Kot. Don't damn our entire country for the actions of one guy.
We're the most advanced, most intelligent society of Forenia and only behind a few in the world, we take pride in our painfully logical way of thinking, painfully strict minds that use military designations to describe it's own citzens. And suddenly, we're supposed to bend to magic? We have fought, we have closed our eyes to minor mistakes and unreasonable occurences, that sadly, were sometimes appearing on our side too. Our current position has been acquired by men who knew their duty and had the courage to do it! And now, our duty is to destroy this evil lair of magic before it spreads over the whole world! Our duty is to purge the illogical! Our duty to ensure that the history goes as it should, not changed by devices that break laws of physics! We can lose this battle. You can blame it on "one guy", or we could stand, all together, against this opresssion of unnatural beings, the so called Moskurgs that, despite being descendend from tigers, imitate human way of living, human way of thinking, insulting everything we ever fought for. We could stand against their magical "dust devils", the "frost giants" that are supposed to exist right under our homes, against the always fickle gods of war and dice, against the magic istelf. This is a battle we can lose, of course, but in end, even the loss will cause us to be stronger! We will have the knowledge to use in future battles! The War is nearly eternal, but sometimes by losing a battle you find a way to win The War, and that is the last goal all of us should aspire to. It won't be achieved in our lifetimes. But now, the true soldiers of Arstotzka must always be prepared to do battle for the truth, and must never, ever allow false convictions to creep in. The whole course of human history may depend on a change of heart in one solitary and even humble individual - for it is in the solitary mind and soul of the individual that the battle between good and evil is waged and ultimately won or lost. We may disagree among ourselves, but let us never lose sight of that greater battle for one people, one country, one Forenia!
GLORY! ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
*cue epic music plays as planes roar by and rythmical footsteps of thousands of thousands of Arstotzkan soldiers march to GLORY can be heard*
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 02:55:36 am
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: evilcherry on August 14, 2015, 03:01:38 am
I Guess his tank will also come with an antenna big enough or be painted red. Or gold plated.His tank's turret is certainly faster than the others. Also, it seems Moskurg has perfected cloning technology. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharClone) :PMoskurg Tank Commander CharIs his tank 3 times faster than the others?
Hey Sensei, can you update Arstotzka's resource count? I want to read the description that comes from having 5 Ore.
Post by: andrea on August 14, 2015, 03:06:16 am
I see I should have taken the time to add more interesting facts to my proposal. Losing to Moskurg is bad in the sense they get a game advantage, but having the capital permanently named to AS-CC-77 in every report from now on? that is terrible.
and Kot, stop antagonizing the GM. If he, after a lengthy discussion, makes a rule, that rule is law. This universe will have different physics if it needs to be.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 03:08:39 am
but having the capital permanently named to AS-CC-77 in every report from now on? that is terrible.Yeah, it's awful.
Change AS-CC-77's name to Arstotzka.
and Kot, stop antagonizing the GM. If he, after a lengthy discussion, makes a rule, that rule is law. This universe will have different physics if it needs to be.I'm pretty sure the last "complaint" was a joke.
Post by: andrea on August 14, 2015, 03:15:55 am
change the capital name to Arstotzka
Post by: evilcherry on August 14, 2015, 03:18:04 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 03:19:33 am
and Kot, stop antagonizing the GM. If he, after a lengthy discussion, makes a rule, that rule is law. This universe will have different physics if it needs to be.I'm not necessarily antagonizing the GM, I am antagonizing recoiless rifles penetrating anything with AP. Also magic.
And you know what happens when GM forces rules despite them being retarded?
Old Man Henderson happens.
EDIT:
Also, there was no real discussion, at least not with the GM.
I'm pretty sure the last "complaint" was a joke.True Arstotzkans never joke!
How pathetic that Arstotzkans now wanted to discard their only national virtue of code name and hyphens.I have recently found that my so called "comrades" are pretty pathetic when it comes to being patriotic.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 03:20:42 am
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 03:38:26 am
Hehe, if you guys like I can definitely do that. I did like the obstinate bureaucracy AS-CC-77 characterized.but having the capital permanently named to AS-CC-77 in every report from now on? that is terrible.Yeah, it's awful.
Change AS-CC-77's name to Arstotzka.
In regards to the first Moskurg RR, the Rhino, I did have a proper discussion. I came to the conclusion that it might be a little unlikely for its time, but I don't think it's stupidly absurd as a matter of physics. I also got pretty annoyed with the attitude of Arstotzkans over it, at the time. ;) Anyway, I should also say that if you consult my armor chart from a while back, your medium tank armor still a lot less than, say, the WWII tanks which were vulnerable only to shaped-charge rifle grenades. I do believe there is an argument to be made that the Recoilless Rifle is one of those weapons which had all the potential to be designed into an effective version during the interwar period, but there was no motivation for countries to do so once the depression hit and that is why we didn't see better recoilless rifles until much later. Not unlike Arstotzka's panzerfaust-in-1928 RPG.and Kot, stop antagonizing the GM. If he, after a lengthy discussion, makes a rule, that rule is law. This universe will have different physics if it needs to be.I'm not necessarily antagonizing the GM, I am antagonizing recoiless rifles penetrating anything with AP. Also magic.
And you know what happens when GM forces rules despite them being retarded?
Old Man Henderson happens.
EDIT:
Also, there was no real discussion, at least not with the GM.
There are game reasons as well that I make my decision; chiefly I don't want to suddenly pull the rug out from under Moskurg after they've had a weapon for a while and made plans around it. I feel bad in general about taking something back that's given. I've even given thought to consciously and officially "dialing down" the realism and historical standards to which I hold new designs, just because I wonder if it is worth the effort sometimes (though I'm not doing that yet). I feel like I have to keep track of a fairly large amount of stuff already, and if weapons designs have me busting out the calculator I'm just not getting turns out on time, or having fun writing for that matter. Either way, it may have been the first measurably ahistorical weapon, but at the rate both of your nations are going it will not be the last. You've mostly caught up with real countries, who are now at peace and scrambling to fix the great depression, while you're at war with a bustling domestic war economy.
Post by: andrea on August 14, 2015, 03:42:21 am
maybe a poll in our thread?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 03:42:40 am
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 03:42:56 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 03:43:38 am
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 03:44:20 am
So, Sensei, what do we need to do to be able to use our totally not a copy of Tiger Whisker?I would say distribution new cipher cards could reasonably be an Order.
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 03:44:33 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 03:45:37 am
Note to self: include a note on all new design that they are meant to be used.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 03:46:34 am
we should just call a truce, take high command down, and return to our daily scheduled bickering
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 03:49:57 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 14, 2015, 03:51:26 am
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 03:52:52 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 03:52:57 am
Ha, imagine that the Endgame for this game is that suddenly a new force appears, dangerous and well-equipped, so both sides have to hesitantly join forces to fight back.Never.
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 03:53:12 am
high command is the worst enemy for both sides of the warSounds like rebel talk to me!
we should just call a truce, take high command down, and return to our daily scheduled bickering
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 03:59:27 am
Anyway, I should also say that if you consult my armor chart from a while back,Wasn't medium armor like 25-50mm? That's still kinda too much for AP from something that shoots at ~200m/s.
your medium tank armor still a lot less than, say, the WWII tanks which were vulnerable only to shaped-charge rifle grenades.50mm of armor is about right for early WW2 medium tanks. We're in 1930, 10 years before.
I do believe there is an argument to be made that the Recoilless Rifle is one of those weapons which had all the potential to be designed into an effective version during the interwar period, but there was no motivation for countries to do so once the depression hit and that is why we didn't see better recoilless rifles until much later.The argument here is that recoiless rifles are useless without HEAT or HESH. I am fine with them making it, not by it's performance with AP and APHE.
Not unlike Arstotzka's panzerfaust-in-1928 RPG.Bazooka was built at end of WW1, and I belive our plans for it were closer to bazooka than RPG. You made it a panzerfaust.
There are game reasons as well that I make my decision; chiefly I don't want to suddenly pull the rug out from under Moskurg after they've had a weapon for a while and made plans around it.I don't have much against Rhino as the damage was already done, though it's description is misleading1. I have stuff against Hippo, as we mentioned it will be useless (with research!) before you made the battle report and it's still good in said report.
I feel bad in general about taking something back that's given.There would be no need for that if you considered what players say a bit more.
I've even given thought to consciously and officially "dialing down" the realism and historical standards to which I hold new designs, just because I wonder if it is worth the effort sometimes (though I'm not doing that yet).Go fantasy or go realistic. Middle ground is going to only cause issues of "what's fantasy enough to not be accepted).
I feel like I have to keep track of a fairly large amount of stuff already, and if weapons designs have me busting out the calculator I'm just not getting turns out on time, or having fun writing for that matter. Either way, it may have been the first measurably ahistorical weapon, but at the rate both of your nations are going it will not be the last. You've mostly caught up with real countries, who are now at peace and scrambling to fix the great depression, while you're at war with a bustling domestic war economy.Screw calculator, go storytelling with some minor dice. There you go.
1 "It fires the normal variety of artillery shells."
I don't read old reports a lot, and to the point considered that the gun was doing damage with regular HE or Incendiary (better idea than firing AP or APHE on tanks with a recoiless rifle).
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 04:00:59 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 04:15:08 am
There are game reasons as well that I make my decision; chiefly I don't want to suddenly pull the rug out from under Moskurg after they've had a weapon for a while and made plans around it.
You do realize you're just pulling the rug from underneath us by providing the enemy with a reality breaking device, that hence can't be countered? I mean, how do you deal with something that shouldn't be able to penetrate your armor, but does anyway? (I have to grasp at straws to even come up with a possible solution)
I mean, all my plans were focused on reality staying the course.
Anyway, the problem is not that the enemy have a Recoilless Rifle. The problem is that they have a recoilless rifle that breaks our armor via AP.
Recoilless rifle are characterized by having extremely low muzzle velocities. The M67, designed in the 60's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M67_recoilless_rifle) had a muzzle velocity of 213 m/s.
For comparison, The Becker type m2 20 mm autocannon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becker_Type_M2_20_mm_cannon) has a muzzle velocity of 490 m/s, and later more advanced autocannons were higher.
The shells the Hippo/Rhino fire are 2.2 inch (56 mm). The shells fired by our autocannon are 20 mm. This means the surface area of our bullet is almost 8 times smaller.
Now, for neither shell the weight is given. However, for our autocannon round we have the dimensions. Which I can't really use, so I'm going to guess about 200 gram. Similarly, no units for the Recoilless rifle. However, a similarly sized US WW2 gun fired 2.5 kg shells.
This gives us a kinetic energy of 24010 Joules for each of our bullets, and a kinetic energy of 56711 Joules for the Recoilless Rifle. Despite using WW2 or even cold war numbers for the Recoilless rifle, it's clear it has only twice as much energy as the Autocannon, spread over an 8 times larger surface area.
The result of this is simple. If the Recoilless Rifle can penetrate, then our autocannon should perforate.
All in all, I merely require the answer to two questions :
Why does the Rhino penetrate?
Why doesn't our autocannon?
Now, we didn't need all this calculator stuff. It should have been patently obvious from the beginning, that AP rounds on a recoilless rifle shouldn't work. We said that like 40 times.
What's happening here is if we designed a B-17 to use as a fighter craft. It's a design being successfully utilized in the area where it's weakness should lie. See, the enemy successfully exploited our RPG's weakness by designing Slat armor. We can't do that, because the RR doesn't have a weakness.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 04:25:14 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 04:25:55 am
YOU WILL GET A MEDAL COMRADE!
If it was a regular recoiless rifle shooting HEAT or HESH, simple slat armor would do.
You do realize you're just pulling the rug from underneath us by providing the enemy with a reality breaking device, that hence can't be countered? I mean, how do you deal with something that shouldn't be able to penetrate your armor, but does anyway? (I have to grasp at straws to even come up with a possible solution)
Since it's shoots AP and APHE, only way to do it is incerase the armor, pretty much.
Anyway, the problem is not that the enemy have a Recoilless Rifle. The problem is that they have a recoilless rifle that breaks our armor via AP.Also, I belive that their muzzle velocity is much, much lower, as M18 Recoiless rifle (57mm, similar), built during WW2 had 365 m/s of muzzle velocity, and had more of it than any other recoiless gun of the time. So I suppose the actual muzzle velocity of their guns is somewhere around 100-200 m/s.
Recoilless rifle are characterized by having extremely low muzzle velocities. The M67, designed in the 60's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M67_recoilless_rifle) had a muzzle velocity of 213 m/s.
For comparison, The Becker type m2 20 mm autocannon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becker_Type_M2_20_mm_cannon) has a muzzle velocity of 490 m/s, and later more advanced autocannons were higher.
The shells the Hippo/Rhino fire are 2.2 inch (56 mm). The shells fired by our autocannon are 20 mm. This means the surface area of our bullet is almost 8 times smaller.
Now, we didn't need all this calculator stuff. It should have been patently obvious from the beginning, that AP rounds on a recoilless rifle shouldn't work. We said that like 40 times.This. This so much (sometimes I feel that Sensei doesn't read 9/10 of the stuff we post, which is actually understandable, but eh).
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 04:28:21 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 04:33:15 am
Well, Moksburg got shaped charge, couldn't you retcon that they use rather inaccurate HEAT shells, like we do?Didin't they built the shaped charge a lot later than the Rhino tho? Retconning that would be hard.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 04:35:23 am
Only future things are changed.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 04:44:40 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 04:47:52 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 14, 2015, 04:49:52 am
In any case, I think Sensei is thinking along the lines "RPG should be quite similar to Recoilless rifles in game terms".
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 04:50:45 am
arstotzka is just mad because moskung designs are stronk enough to beat reality in the face with its own fist while they can't even design a good pistol for two decades nowAnd you're fucking tigers.
Also yes, this is a proper way to respond to all Moskurgian propaganda that says Arstotzka is inferior in any way.
Aren't the Rhino coming with HE ammo? You don't really need HEAT or APHE to defeat relatively thin armor.RPGs are easy to defeat with slat armor (as Moskurgs just did), since they're HEAT.
In any case, I think Sensei is thinking along the lines "RPG should be quite similar to Recoilless rifles in game terms".
Recoiless rifles should be HEAT too, but they're AP, and such slat armor has no effect.
So, you're proposing we should make RPGs with AP or APHE rounds?
That's... madness.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 14, 2015, 04:51:49 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 04:52:19 am
how do you guys reproduce
through spores?
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 04:53:12 am
goes arstotzka even have womenThrough GLORY!
how do you guys reproduce
through spores?
Post by: QuakeIV on August 14, 2015, 04:53:48 am
Seriously guys, what the hell. The hyphenated code name is part of our national identity.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 04:54:02 am
arstotzka is just mad because moskung designs are stronk enough to beat reality in the face with its own fist while they can't even design a good pistol for two decades nowApt summary of the situation yes.
Aren't the Rhino coming with HE ammo? You don't really need HEAT or APHE to defeat relatively thin armor.It is described as utilizing APHE against tanks. And while the Moskurgian APHE isn't actually APHE as used by everyone else, it shouldn't make it anymore efficient.
(Adding an explosive on the bottom of an AP shell is only good to blast shrapnel back into your own face. It won't make the round go any faster, as the explosive dissipates too easily.)
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 04:54:25 am
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 04:55:32 am
Having done some more digging around the 1940 German LG40 is a recoiless rifle which fires 7.5cm rounds, and those rounds are the same ones used in artillery guns, much like the Moskurg Rhino/Hippo. It is bigger- both the rounds are bigger, and it weighs on the order of more than a hundred pounds rather than thirty or so (but it didn't usually blow up). It relied on a more moden system of only expelling gas, and not shooting any ballast out the back. I have from this source (http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2pen3.pdf), page 9, the first data I could find on LG40 armor penetration, that it could penetrate 100mm of armor (no range given) or 45mm of armor at a 30 degree angle. Again, much like the Rhino, it uses AP/APHE rounds not originally designed for RR use. Obviously the Rhino must perform considerably worse than this, for what it is, but that is an example of a recoilless rifle which can penetrate reasonable armor without HEAT rounds.
Therefore, I think the notion that the Rhino's performance is physically impossible is incorrect. The armor on a T25, if we must compare it to real thicknesses, is somewhere between 25 and 50mm. A gun like the LG40 with a smaller round and less muzzle velocity could reasonably penetrate 50mm at close to medium range, with a square hit.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 05:00:37 am
Given that our armor is so thin, why then can the autocannon not penetrate it? Honestly, 25 mm with an autocannon utilizing steel core ammunition should be a piece of cake.
Quote
but it didn't usually blow up)
It shook itself apart after repeated firing, actually.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 05:03:20 am
AP in LG40 was horrendously shit. The penetration values you have are for hollow charge (HEAT) rounds.
Post by: Sensei on August 14, 2015, 05:09:24 am
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 05:15:15 am
Post by: QuakeIV on August 14, 2015, 05:17:52 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 05:21:50 am
If you want to argue further, I'm going to want citation. I'm not sure if it's worth my time either way.Citation for such guns are really hard to come by. It's hard to even get the penetration values of the guns they took the shells from, but I will try my best.
Will you stop vaguely antagonizing the GM? We will have ice giants roaming through our homelands and destroying our tank factories at this rate...We're not antagonizing the GM, we're antagonizing Moskurgs and their designs. Or something.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 05:24:41 am
We're not antagonizing the GM, we're antagonizing Moskurgs and their designs. Or something.You're antagonising the GM by complaining about Moskurg and their designs. You choose what you complain about but not who you antagonise.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 05:27:55 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 14, 2015, 05:32:05 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 05:39:52 am
I think we can just assume the average Moskurgan officer would instruct their soldiers not to use the ineffectual AP or APHE rounds instead of the HE ones.It's stated that APHE is effective and Sensei considers that Recoiless Guns can kill things with APHE.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 05:40:26 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 14, 2015, 05:43:42 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 05:46:16 am
Or we could start using invicible APHE rounds from outer space ourselves I guess. :p
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 05:49:49 am
If you want to argue further, I'm going to want citation. I'm not sure if it's worth my time either way.Uhm, your very own Source clearly states:
>Hollow charge rounds, same at all ranges:
The data you gave are for hollow charge rounds.
Now, as Kot said, data is hard to come by, but with some common sense and looking at the data surely you must realize that AP being fired from a recoilless rifle is impossible.
5 cm KwK 38 firing a 2 kg AP has a penetration of 46 mm at 500 meter, with a muzzle velocity of 700 m/s. The muzzle velocity of your recoilless rifle is at best half that, meaning 1/4 the kinetic energy. It simply can't penetrate.
Kwk_38 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_KwK_38)
I get the impression that APHE just works differently in this works to real life. So as i trust Sensei to not give us something that can't be countered, you can probably get away with designing "an armour mod designed to negate APHE rounds" instead of something specific, and he'll give you the counter.
Yes, but designing, "A design that lets us win" is boring. At that point you might as well strip out the fluff and just throw opposing die rolls.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 05:51:04 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 05:52:42 am
I get the impression that APHE just works differently in this world to real life. So as i trust Sensei to not give us something that can't be countered, you can probably get away with designing "an armour mod designed to negate APHE rounds" instead of something specific, and he'll give you the counter.I wonder what he would come up with.
Unobtanium armor?
EDIT:
Also, haha, I almost did the same thing.
Right now I'm digging through simulation games to get some knowledge maybe, dunno if that would be reliable.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 14, 2015, 05:57:04 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 06:05:03 am
only a GM whom you can ask questions of.I'll rather continue digging, thank you.
Also, damn, Steel Panthers don't have any mentions of LGs. Fuck, I thought that Steel Panthers have it, considering all those weird guns they have and completly historical values.
Maybe the designers had the same problem? No info on LG?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 06:08:36 am
I mean, if that only barely penetrates armor (and it will, it was outdated) then it's clear the LG couldn't do anything at all.
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 06:12:25 am
Have you tried digging up info on the cannon from which the LG borrowed it's round?Yes. It didin't go well, but I'll try that too after all my ideas to find LG 40 fail.
I mean, if that only barely penetrates armor (and it will, it was outdated) then it's clear the LG couldn't do anything at all.
BUT BUT I HAVE FOUND LG 40 IN OTHER VERSION OF STEEL PANTHERS!
But shitty game values, so...
Both versions have 0 in AP, with the bigger one having 10 instead of 5 in HEAT.
Dunno what that means really, except that it's AP is actually nonexistant. I'll continue searching.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 06:13:08 am
Quote from: Wikipedia on the LG40
This gun used HE shells from the 7.5 cm Gebirgsgeschütz (Mountain Gun) 36 and the anti-tank shell of the 7.5 cm Feldkanone 16, neuer Art (Field Cannon, New Model).
Quote from: Wikipedia on the GebG 36
The 7.5 cm GebG 36 fired a wide variety of ammunition, with the notable exception of a conventional armor-piercing shell. It used instead a unique hollow-charge armor-piercing shell
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 06:21:05 am
Well:It used HE from GebG 36, but the AP from 7.5 cm Feldkanone 16 Na, so I don't really know what you're trying to say here.Quote from: Wikipedia on the LG40This gun used HE shells from the 7.5 cm Gebirgsgeschütz (Mountain Gun) 36 and the anti-tank shell of the 7.5 cm Feldkanone 16, neuer Art (Field Cannon, New Model).Quote from: Wikipedia on the GebG 36The 7.5 cm GebG 36 fired a wide variety of ammunition, with the notable exception of a conventional armor-piercing shell. It used instead a unique hollow-charge armor-piercing shell
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 06:28:15 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 06:42:28 am
Also, I have checked Men Of War for some info, the LG 40 actually appears, but only with HEAT (which seems to be indeed around 50mm of penetration, but can't really tell because I'm using GSM mod and it disables any way of checking the actual penetration values easily, without testing them on tanks of course (50mm got penetrated, 60mm didin't EDIT: All point-blank range ofc, but heat doesn't lose much of penetration over distance, rather loses it quickly when used against sloped and spaced armor) and HE.
Another dead end... or the AP actually was so shitty that nobody used it.
EDIT:
Eh, I have no ideas anymore really. I asked a question in thread about German Wunderwaffen so our armchair generals can prove their intelligence, and if that fails I'm proably going to invite more people and ask over some other forums. I suppose it exists somewhere in German internets. If that fails, the penetration values should still exist somewhere, but you would have to have access to actual documents rather than to internets proably.
If that fails, I will be conviced that AP and APHE in FG 40 is bullshit.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 06:59:41 am
If penetration is proportional to energy, and the Hippo got the velocity of the M18 (same calibre) or 365 m/s, their Hippo should penetrate about 15 mm of angled armor at 100m.
Post by: Taricus on August 14, 2015, 07:01:21 am
Post by: andrea on August 14, 2015, 07:03:09 am
As an infantry weapon, I assume they aren't sitting in front of the tank, firind head on. they likely aim at flanks, like we do with RPG.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 07:05:51 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 07:09:39 am
I think the ice giants might be thawing :PWater giants? That might prove to be a bit harder nut to crack than ice giants, since we can't really shoot those to pieces. I'm sure we will find out something anyway.
Now, looking at the british QF-6, which has the same calibre as the Hippo (2.2 inches), can penetrate 85 mm of 30° angled armor according to Wikipedia... With a muzzle velocity of 853 m/s.It should be noted that M18 has exceptionally high muzzle velocity for a 1945 (designed in 1942 though) recoiless gun and British didin't use APHE (which is lighter and has different (worse) penetrating capabilities).
If penetration is proportional to energy, and the Hippo got the velocity of the M18 (same calibre) or 365 m/s, their Hippo should penetrate about 15 mm of angled armor at 100m.
At this point, it's less ranting and more enjoying the search for obscure information. :pResearch is a joyful activity.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 07:13:31 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 07:17:55 am
It's good to see that salt has been replaced by nerds doing research. ;D /jkThe reason behind the research is still pretty salty though.
So salty that the thawing ice giants might be tear giants.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 07:22:35 am
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2015, 07:25:35 am
Speaking of giants, would our countries be able to beat the titans from Attack on Titan?Arstotzka of course.
Moskurg would get stomped.
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 07:30:22 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 07:32:21 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 09:50:33 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 14, 2015, 09:52:37 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 14, 2015, 10:02:18 am
Cause I kinda want to see that, after which Mokburg can complain for a while and get sand devils, after which the sand devils and frost giants can duke it out. Then we forget all about the whole Mokburg vs Asstoken thing and watch some Kaiju battles.
Post by: tryrar on August 14, 2015, 11:26:47 am
Edit: Honestly, my whole feeling on the RR situation is "Ok, yeah, Rhino, dice gave them something pretty good(given our shitty armor) that's a bit ahistorical, but oh well." "Hippo, wahhh? It's not even using shaped charges, and we improved our armor so that it shouldn't even work without shaped charges! WTF?"
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 11:35:41 am
And we're not going to be able to change that, unless we have direct conclusive proof that it can't happen, which we're having a little trouble finding.
(On that note, given the absence of direct proof that interwar tanks could not, in fact, fly, can ours fly? :))
Post by: Kashyyk on August 14, 2015, 11:51:07 am
Post by: Elfeater on August 14, 2015, 11:59:52 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 12:04:16 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 12:22:56 pm
Jesus Christ guys, you are at the edge of our cities and you still find reason to complain, we built this weapon to fight in the desert and you advanced.Yeah, and we doubled down in the desert designing both those artillery shells and the encryption/decryption system. And we already had an advantage to begin with.
Edit: When can we actually start attacking the enemy supply lines and start to cut off the forces in the mountains and Jungle?
Post by: Elfeater on August 14, 2015, 12:25:42 pm
So what you did worked. You ignored other areas at the expense of advancing in the desert.Jesus Christ guys, you are at the edge of our cities and you still find reason to complain, we built this weapon to fight in the desert and you advanced.Yeah, and we doubled down in the desert designing both those artillery shells and the encryption/decryption system. And we already had an advantage to begin with.
Edit: When can we actually start attacking the enemy supply lines and start to cut off the forces in the mountains and Jungle?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2015, 12:37:41 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 14, 2015, 12:49:01 pm
Will it be possible to attack an area on two flanks? And if so, at what point will that be possible?
Post by: Elfeater on August 14, 2015, 12:50:26 pm
Huh, I thought I had asked this earlier, but cant find the post or a response, so here it is (possibly again).I think thats up to high command, but I may be mistaken.
Will it be possible to attack an area on two flanks? And if so, at what point will that be possible?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 01:10:56 pm
So what you did worked. You ignored other areas at the expense of advancing in the desert.Jesus Christ guys, you are at the edge of our cities and you still find reason to complain, we built this weapon to fight in the desert and you advanced.Yeah, and we doubled down in the desert designing both those artillery shells and the encryption/decryption system. And we already had an advantage to begin with.
Edit: When can we actually start attacking the enemy supply lines and start to cut off the forces in the mountains and Jungle?
And you know, we're not complaining about that. (Though the Jungle situation appeared a bit strange, but really that's not worth mentioning ).
The point is that we're faced with a weapon (crappy as it is) whose way of functioning is contrary to reality, and thus throws a whole lot of trouble into the game's workings.
Basically, the only way the RR can work is if medium armor is really, really bad, in which case our autocannon should work as well.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 14, 2015, 04:42:01 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 14, 2015, 04:48:15 pm
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 14, 2015, 05:03:05 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 14, 2015, 05:04:42 pm
ARSTOKZA
silly "arstokzans" don't even know the name of their own country, yet they give all "glory" to it? :P
It seems I may be a Moskurgan by heart. :P
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 14, 2015, 05:54:38 pm
I don't think you should care about who's winning, honestly, just read both threads, then the one you want to make a suggestion in first is your pick.ARSTOKZA
silly "arstokzans" don't even know the name of their own country, yet they give all "glory" to it? :P
It seems I may be a Moskurgan by heart. :P
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 14, 2015, 06:05:45 pm
I don't think you should care about who's winningARSTOKZA
silly "arstokzans" don't even know the name of their own country, yet they give all "glory" to it? :P
It seems I may be a Moskurgan by heart. :P
I really don't. Like, if Moskurg were losing I would've probably joined them anyways. I was just wondering who was currently winning.
Post by: evilcherry on August 14, 2015, 07:25:22 pm
Well, on a strategic level, Arztotska is winning. On a tactical level, it's Moskurg.By "tactically", that means "GM believes that Moskurgan designs work better than expected, while failing continuously to understand Arstotzkan designs".
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 14, 2015, 07:28:38 pm
Well, on a strategic level, Arztotska is winning. On a tactical level, it's Moskurg.By "tactically", that means "GM believes that Moskurgan designs work better than expected, while failing continuously to understand Arstotzkan designs".
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 14, 2015, 07:35:11 pm
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2015, 07:48:57 pm
Uuuuugh, I want to join in, but I'm not sure which side to join. Who would be "winning" right now, not that I'm just going to join the winning side. I was originally thinking of going with Moskurg, but something made me decide to wait a bit and think on it. How many people are on each side?Arstotzka's thread has many more pages than Moskurg so you may want to join Moskurg for that reason. Arstotzka is currently winning, holding 5 territories past the mid-line versus Moskurg's 2.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 02:51:18 am
The point is that we're faced with a weapon (crappy as it is) whose way of functioning is contrary to reality, and thus throws a whole lot of trouble into the game's workings.Finding evidence that that solidcore AP slugs don't work is hard because only Germans apparently considered using it (as in, taking an existing shell and putting it in it) and even then there is no actual evidence of using it, since HEAT penetration values of LG 40 can be easily accessed, but the AP ones can't, and there's a chance they don't actually exist. I can't find 7.5 cm FK 16 nA AP penetration values also, and while the 10,5 got it's shells from leFH 18, and I can't find values for that too, except maybe from WoT (so that's bullshit proably, 63 mm from 100m at 475 m/s, better than I would have thought, but honestly it's a 10,5 cm artillery shell, it may as well break through by sheer weight) and War Thunder (closer to reality I think, but still "balanced") as it's a F2P Multiplayer, anyway the penetration is 64mm at 100m, woah that's pretty consistent with WoT which is suprising really), because nowhere else it has AP rounds.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 03:40:22 am
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:54:25 am
Can someone tell me what an open frame butt is? I looked it up on Google but found nothing.I think it is just the metal, in a box, with open air inside, instead of a solid core with wood and metal.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 03:57:44 am
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 04:02:51 am
Actually, I think it's just a few tubes/metal bars welded together in the shape of a buttThat is a more eloquently put version of what I said.
Post by: Sensei on August 15, 2015, 04:07:04 am
Can someone tell me what an open frame butt is? I looked it up on Google but found nothing.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/harrybeck/bfs_lg.jpg)
I'm not sure if I used the right terminology for it, but this is what I pictured. Note that the above picture is also a folding stock, I think, though the one on the AS-MC16 Andres Edition is not.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:12:47 am
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 04:15:00 am
On a side note, Moskurg is slow.
To be fair, we clearly knew what we had to do to not be driven out of two fronts at once :P. They don't have such clarity, though I do say I'm pretty sure I know what they're revising :P
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:17:21 am
If I try, they're going to end up with a functional flintlock artillery gu or something.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 04:18:57 am
I will make no effort to predict Moskurgian actions or their results.
If I try, they're going to end up with a functional flintlock artillery gu or something.
I will admit that since we're done with everything, I took a peek to see what they're up to. Hey Moskurgs, I like it, if only because it's basically worse than your previous design! :P
Post by: Donuts on August 15, 2015, 04:19:16 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:21:02 am
I will admit that since we're done with everything, I took a peek to see what they're up to. Hey Moskurgs, I like it, if only because it's basically worse than your previous design! :P
And now the one examplre they can actually afford is going to murder our entire airforce.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 04:23:37 am
I will admit that since we're done with everything, I took a peek to see what they're up to. Hey Moskurgs, I like it, if only because it's basically worse than your previous design! :P
And now the one examplre they can actually afford is going to murder our entire airforce.
Well, they haven't actually finished revision yet, so I won't discuss it further. But yeah, it seems we both had some suspect design phases :P)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:29:50 am
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 04:32:31 am
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 04:34:41 am
I haven't looked at their thread but I know you're all talking about AA. Historically, how were AA guns defeated?
Actually, it's not AA, but a new fighter. One that might be better than our current fighter if they can iron out the bugs, but it has quite a few bugs to iron out :P
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:52:01 am
I haven't looked at their thread but I know you're all talking about AA. Historically, how were AA guns defeated?Build more planes than the enemy could shoot down. At this point however, AA is still ineffective. No way to guess where the planes are without seeing them, no proximity fuses, ...
I haven't looked at their thread but I know you're all talking about AA. Historically, how were AA guns defeated?Actually, it's not AA, but a new fighter. One that might be better than our current fighter if they can iron out the bugs, but it has quite a few bugs to iron out :P
It is cheaper (resource cost, not actual cost), faster, may be more maneuverable, and possibly better armed (The Brumby was noted at being less effective against our planes, but it's unknown if that applies to the Sorraia, especially as it's not ground fire.)
Anyway, now is not the moment to discuss this.
Post by: Sensei on August 15, 2015, 04:54:04 am
I'll definitely have to sleep before making a new battle report, at this point. Before then I figured I'd post some stuff I was thinking about.
Oops, Moskurg Model 4 costs resources!
I didn't mean to leave it with no resource cost. It costs 3 ore, 3 oil.
The Final Word on Recoilless Rifles
Having done more research, it seems very unlikely that an antique or modern Recoilless Rifle around the Rhino/Hippo's size could reasonably penetrate the amount of armor it's been penetrating without the benefit of HEAT rounds. I still don't think this is the biggest issue in the world. I also care for internal consistency with events in my own game as much or more as I care for consistency between my game and real life. As such I have a couple options:
A) Keep the RR's as they are. They have one or two points more AP than they probably should. Oh well, it's just one weapon.
B) Nerf the AP, but explain previous performance by giving it moderately effective HEAT rounds. This would imply that Moskurg made decent 2.2 inch HEAT rounds when they made either the Rhino or the Hippo, effectively giving them a 6 die roll retroactively. On the plus side for Arstotzka, this would mean the RR's don't stand to be drastically improved by adding HEAT rounds and would be more easily defeated by, say, slat armor. On the other hand, these HEAT rounds would be available for Breaker guns and possibly SPATs, as a matter of consistency. This would improve moskurg anti-armor performance considerably.
I will be hearing arguments (not votes) for A and B options, from both sides, and of course Kot and 10ebbor10 in particular.
War Crimes
A lot of people are concerned about violating the Geneva Protocol/Hague Conventions and similar. I can say that your countries are not signatory to any international war crime treaty. In my brief research I haven't yet found any clear record of how these were enforced on non-signatory countries, either in theory or in practice. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a good article on that subject. I would probably use a simplified version in game (these treaties are long man), the biggest tenet being the banned use of gas weapons and poisons, with expanding bullets and such probably banned as well (I will warn any nation before they go ahead with designing/revising treaty-violating weapons so there is no ambiguity). Anyway, I'd like to have these as a game mechanic with clear rules rather than ambiguous ones players are fearful and unsure of.
The Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
(I'll repost this at the top of the 1930 BR as well)
At the risk of turning this into a diplomacy game: High Command of each Nation is proposing a war treaty. In a game-changing, landmark historical event, some basic articles, such as "Prisoners will not be served as meals to other prisoners", "Prisoners will not be served as meals to tigers or bears" and "Prisoners are friends, not food" have already been agreed upon! It also forbids to weaponized use of the Ark of the Covenant, if it is ever found. They are looking to the engineers of both sides to form the section of the agreement that pertains to which weapons are allowed and not allowed.
You may draft an agreement which describes forms of banned weapons, eg "All gas and chemical weapons are banned, and the use of tigers as weapons is banned" or "landmines may not be stacked on top of one another" or even "Moskurg may not use recoilless rifles, and Arstotzka may not use RPGs" and then this agreement must be ratified by a majority of voting players on each side. The terms can be whatever you want, even unreasonable stuff if both nations agree. You can even get creative and, for example, make provisions for future additions. Beware of loopholes, or use them to your advantage. High command will refuse to deploy any banned weapon out of a superstitious, unfounded fear of frost giants/sand devils, but also because the country which is victim to treaty violation will receive a game-breaking amount of foreign aid expense credits and materials.
Also, start posting National Sports
It will make my job easier if they are here in the OOC thread when I start writing the battle report tomorrow.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:04:51 am
Argument C: For all point and purposes, the Moskurgian APHE (which has no similarity to real life APHE) acts as a primitive HEAT warhead though it is not described as such. (The way it is described would generally only succeed in shooting shrapnel in the face of your own troops). Simply rename that the primitive HEAT, no need to change performance.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:06:21 am
>The Final Word on Recoilless RiflesThis or at worst B is my vote
Argument C: For all point and purposes, the Moskurgian APHE (which has no similarity to real life APHE) acts as a primitive HEAT warhead though it is not described as such. (The way it is described would generally only succeed in shooting shrapnel in the face of your own troops). Simply rename that the primitive HEAT, no need to change performance.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 05:10:20 am
- Chemical weapons are banned
- Poisonous and/or toxic weapons are banned
- Biological weapons are banned
- Radioactive weapons are banned
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohibited
- Torture of humans and/or animals is prohibited
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:15:06 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- Chemical weapons are banned
- Poisonous and/or toxic weapons are banned
- Biological weapons are banned
- Radioactive weapons are banned
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohibited
- Torture of humans and/or animals is prohibited
Glory to Arstotzka.
Hmm, nothing I can object to, +1 from me
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:19:16 am
-> Define Chemical Weapon. (Explosives are chemicals too)
-> Define Poisonous/Toxic Weapon (Our bullets do contain lead, for example)
-> Define biological Weapon
-> Define Radioactive weapon
-> Define Torture (Really, being within 500 meters of a Moskurgian is bad enough)
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:20:11 am
Arstotzkan sport is Freestyle Motorsports!
Arstotzkans have always been mechanically minded, so when cars became commonplace, people naturally decided to race in them. Then they began tinkering with the engines, trying to eek out just that much more horsepower, and when fuel injection and turbochargers became a thing, they tinkered with those as well, and the motorsport craze just took off. If it has wheels and an engine, Arstotzkans will race it, from souped up motorcycles to custom-built high-performance drag racers, and anything in between.
You can find any type of racetrack in Arstotzka, from rude dirt oval tracks to expensive asphalt shrines to the sport. And often, you don't even need to go to the track to catch a race; rally races through the streets of the capital are commonplace. If you want to watch a race, you generally only have to stay still for 5 minutes.
No matter where you go to watch a race though, rules tend to be similar. Arstotzkan races generally only have a few rules: No sabotaging or intentionally wrecking the opponent, you must stay on the course(no shortcuts!), and you can't use weapons to attack your opponent. Other than that, a racer can do anything from using special fuels to boost his performance to attaching rockets to his vehicle(one enterprising racer attached wings to his car and attempted to fly above his competition. This was...less than successful, thought he resulting crash and fireball was pretty hilarious.) Arstotskans also don't bother with silly things like safety equipment, and only have the rudest crash barriers in place to simply keep cars from flying into the stands(racers often claim safety is for pansies and tiger fucker Moskurgs). Half the fun of watching Arstotzkan style racing is for the spectacular crashes, with the other half seeing what crazy contraption a racer has come up THIS time to give him any perceived advantage while staying in the letter of the rules. Of course, this wouldn't be Arstotzka if races weren't capped off by a shower of fireworks(though the rockets are often overshadowed by the fireworks on the track).
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 05:21:26 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:22:39 am
ban combat with everything that is not a sword-> Define Sword
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 05:23:36 am
ban combat with everything that is not a sword-> Define Sword
a weapon having various forms but consisting typically of a long, straight or slightly curved blade, sharp-edged on one or both sides, with one end pointed and the other fixed in a hilt or handle
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 05:24:35 am
List of objections :Let's not make this a diplomacy/politics simulator.
-> Define Chemical Weapon. (Explosives are chemicals too)
-> Define Poisonous/Toxic Weapon (Our bullets do contain lead, for example)
-> Define biological Weapon
-> Define Radioactive weapon
-> Define Torture (Really, being within 500 meters of a Moskurgian is bad enough)
Arstotzkan sport is Freestyle Motorsports!+1 but no racing in the city streets. That is illegal.
ban combat with everything that is not a swordThe technology in small motors that we gained from designing our motorbike will let us make better chainswords than Moskurg. With our extra Ore, we can also make these chainswords out of better materials.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:26:22 am
Arstotzkan sport is Freestyle Motorsports!+1 but no racing in the city streets. That is illegal.ban combat with everything that is not a swordThe technology in small motors that we gained from designing our motorbike will let us make better chainswords than Moskurg. With our extra Ore, we can also make these chainswords out of better materials.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it happens anyways. :P plus, you know, rally races through cities are a thing, as long as they're done official-like from a governing body of the sport who pays a fee to basically rent out part of the city for a day or two.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:28:37 am
Let's not make this a diplomacy/politics simulator.
Not defining anything merely reinstitutes the same ambiguity that is the problem now.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:40:39 am
>Ban any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent designed to maim/kill any soldier/civilians used on it
>Ban any weapon that utilizes deadly natural or engineered diseases to maim/kill soldier/civilians
>Ban any radioactive "dirty" bombs designed to spread radioactive contamination over an area
>Ban any mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners. All prisoner should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and at least the illusion of privacy, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, or any method used by the Spanish Inquisition really, or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 05:44:07 am
and on the latter we'd need a rewording, signing it implies arstotzkans are in any way human
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:46:10 am
i object on the first due to the nature of propellant and the effects its fumes cause when spilled
and on the latter we'd need a rewording, signing it implies arstotzkans are in any way human
Hardy har har.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:52:51 am
Spoiler: Arztostkan Moskurgian Treaty (click to show/hide)
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 05:54:25 am
I have this slightly broader agreement.Spoiler: Arztostkan Moskurgian Treaty (click to show/hide)
-1, too restrictive. I like mine better
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 06:01:49 am
>Ban any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent designed to kill any soldier/civilians used on itDoes not actually ban any poison gas
Quote
>Ban any weapon that utilizes deadly natural or engineered diseases to kill soldier/civiliansDoes not actually ban any biological weaponry
Quote
>Ban any radioactive "dirty" bombs designed to spread radioactive contamination over a wide areaDoes not actually ban any dirty bombs.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:03:19 am
Yours is completely useless.>Ban any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent designed to kill any soldier/civilians used on itDoes not actually ban any poison gasQuote>Ban any weapon that utilizes deadly natural or engineered diseases to kill soldier/civiliansDoes not actually ban any biological weaponryQuote>Ban any radioactive "dirty" bombs designed to spread radioactive contamination over a wide areaDoes not actually ban any dirty bombs.
Oh, and how does it not ban what is says it doesn't ban?
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2015, 06:05:34 am
Methinks ebbor is showing the stereotypical lawyery-specificity clause here, bluntly exemplified by the adjective before the noun being a limitation towards the scope of the effect, when the effect should be general and explicit.Yours is completely useless.>Ban any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent designed to kill any soldier/civilians used on itDoes not actually ban any poison gasQuote>Ban any weapon that utilizes deadly natural or engineered diseases to kill soldier/civiliansDoes not actually ban any biological weaponryQuote>Ban any radioactive "dirty" bombs designed to spread radioactive contamination over a wide areaDoes not actually ban any dirty bombs.
Oh, and how does it not ban what is says it doesn't ban?
Which is why the law has a ton of those adjectives instead of few generalized words to cover everything. :3
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 06:06:39 am
The problem for the dirty bomb is that you insist on saying large area. The very nature of radioactive material means it's only effective in high concentrations, and thus would be a localized, area denial weapon rather than spreading it out over a small area.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:08:46 am
Because you insist on utilizing kill. Poison gasses rarely kill, they maim horribly, which is exactly why they were banned. Same for biological weaponry. Hell, Mustard gas would be fine under your definition.
The problem for the dirty bomb is that you insist on saying large area. The very nature of radioactive material means it's only effective in high concentrations, and thus would be a localized, area denial weapon rather than spreading it out over a small area.
Huh, to your first point I actually didn't know that, will mod that. As for the second, so it's a wording issue, I can fix that as well.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:10:47 am
>Ban the usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionallyI've edited this proposed suggestion.
>Ban the usage of any weapon that utilizes harm natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionally
>Ban the usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area
>Ban any mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners. All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and at least the illusion of privacy, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane
>Ban the use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:13:16 am
>Ban the usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionallyI've edited this proposed suggestion.
>Ban the usage of any weapon that utilizes harm natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionally
>Ban the usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area
>Ban any mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners. All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and at least the illusion of privacy, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane
>Ban the use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle
Glory to Arstotzka.
Ah, much better wording of what I was going for! Thanks Andre!
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:14:18 am
>Ban the usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionallyI've edited this proposed suggestion.
this literally bans kerosene (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002807.htm)
a random plane crashes, someone is nearby, somebody breathes the fumes, the treaty is fucked sideways
seriously though that provision is unenforceable unless we're going back to swords
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:15:44 am
>Ban the usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans accidentally, mistakenly, or intentionallyI've edited this proposed suggestion.
this literally bans kerosene (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002807.htm)
a random plane crashes, someone is nearby, somebody breathes the fumes, the treaty is fucked sideways
seriously though that provision is unenforceable unless we're going back to swords
Ok then, how would you word a provision banning things like mustard gas and Sarin in general?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:16:27 am
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:19:12 am
Updated:
>Ban the usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans intentionally
>Ban the usage of any weapon that utilizes harm natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans intentionally
>Ban the usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area
>Ban any mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners. All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and at least the illusion of privacy, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane
>Ban the use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:20:27 am
- The intentional usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- All prisoners must be treated humanely. They must be given at least three meals a day and a cot equivalent or better. It is prohibited to subject prisoners to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohibited
I've edited the first and second clauses. I now think it's possible for Moskurg to develop these weapons and "accidentally" release them on honest Arstotzkans.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:21:35 am
sensei said we can do that if we both shake on it
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:22:14 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans intentionally is prohibited
- The usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans intentionally is prohibited
- The usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- The mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners is prohibited.
- All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohited
I've edited the first and second clauses. I now think it's possible for Moskurg to develop these weapons and "accidentally" release them on honest Arstotzkans.
Glory to Arstotzka.
+1 this is exactly what I was going for
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:23:32 am
while we have the opportunity, let's take this moment to build railways through the jungle, mountains and plains
sensei said we can do that if we both shake on it
Sure, I mean we're the ones with the armored trains after all :P
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:27:28 am
The above clause has been changed to:
- All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and should not be interrogated using methods such as drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other method designed to force prisoners to give up information against their will that could be classified as inhumane
The reason for this is to prevent torture of prisoners for any reasons. Previously, only the torture of prisoners with the aim of getting information was prohibited.
- All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and should not be subject to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
while we have the opportunity, let's take this moment to build railways through the jungle, mountains and plainsI object. This is an obvious Moskurg plot or will at least benefit Moskurg in some unseen way.
sensei said we can do that if we both shake on it
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:28:57 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 06:31:15 am
Lets us have giant tanks, rather than ending up with all armor defeating warheads.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 06:32:59 am
I do believe that we should be so silly as to ban HEAT warheads.
Lets us have giant tanks, rather than ending up with all armor defeating warheads.
Now you are just being silly. -1
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:33:36 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
this has the potential to block development of nuclear power for peaceful, civilian uses due to the simple fact that the fuel is radioactive and the definition of weapon can be anything forever
i doubt moskurg can allow that, therefore a subclause specifically permitting civilian use should be added
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:34:43 am
see, here i am being peaceful and amicable and wishing to grow the economy of both forenian nations and arstotzka is all oh no this will benefit moskurg we must block itThere will be no peace between Arstotzka and Moskurg until Arstotzka soundly defeats Moskurg. The treaty we are discussing is only to better the war and is most certainly not meant to be a bridge to peace.
On the treaty, I've noticed a few flaws in the second-last clause of my proposal.
What if a nation wants to give better accommodations to their prisoners than cots? They wouldn't need access to cots then.
- All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and should not be subject to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
Also, the inhumane acts are only listed as things that should not be done, rather than being explicitly prohibited.
How should the wording of this clause be changed?
I do believe that we should be so silly as to ban HEAT warheads.HEAT warheads do not function using acidic, paralytic, or nerve agents and would thus be allowed under my proposal.
actually, while i'm at itThis is unnecessary. The definition of a weapon has already been defined. Allowing it for civilian use will allow civilians to use nuclear weapons instead of the military. This is almost certainly worse than militaries having nuclear weapons.Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
this has the potential to block development of nuclear power for peaceful, civilian uses due to the simple fact that the fuel is radioactive and the definition of weapon can be anything forever
i doubt moskurg can allow that, therefore a subclause specifically permitting civilian use should be added
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 06:37:10 am
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:38:40 am
i take it arstotzkans plan to let civilians own nuclear weapons?What? Of course not. Machine guns and autocannons are banned and so would nuclear weapons. It was you who suggested to allow our citizens to field nuclear weapons. Under my clause, civilians can use non-military applications of nuclear energy such as power plants but they can't use it for weapons.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:42:38 am
The above has been changed to:
- The usage or production of any radioactive weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Iituem on August 15, 2015, 08:22:36 am
Tiger
Tiger is nominally a ball game, but in places constitutes a full contact sport. It is an asymmetric game, consisting of two teams of four and twenty respectively (the "Tigers" and "Goats"). A normal game lasts one hour. There is a single goal in the centre of the field consisting of a wooden hoop raised above the ground. Tigers score points for every ball they put through the hoop. Goats cannot score points.
The ball starts with the Goat captain, who collects it after each successful goal. Tigers must then take the ball from the Goats in order to score. Tigers may capture the ball wherever it is, but are not allowed to hold the ball for more than five seconds - they must throw or kick it to another Tiger or into the hoop. Not doing so constitutes a foul. Goats may hold the ball if desired. Tigers can attack any Goat with the ball, for as long as they have the ball in their possession - by which one means they may literally attack them. Tigers are permitted any moves short of strikes below the belt or to the face in order to get the Goat to either release the ball or lose their footing. Any Goat who is knocked or falls to the ground (within 5 seconds of their possession of the ball) is out of the game. Goats without the ball may not be attacked, and doing so constitutes a foul. Goats with the ball (or illegally attacked) may defend themselves as they wish (sans hits to the face or below the belt), but Goats without the ball may not attack Tigers.
When the hour is up, the Tigers get as many points as they did goals. Goats get as many points as Goat players are left in the game. In the event of a tie, Goats win.
In summary:
* Two asymmetric teams: 4 Tigers, 20 Goats.
* The game lasts 1 hour.
* Tigers score goals by throwing the ball into the goal hoop.
* Tigers must obtain the ball from the Goats, and must pass the ball between players.
* Goats may do with the ball as they wish, so long as it stays within the field of play.
* Tigers can only attack Goats who have the ball, or are within 5 seconds of passing it on.
* Goats can only fight in self-defence.
* Goats who fall to the floor in any manner are out.
* Tigers win by ending the game with more goals than remaining Goats.
* Goats win by ending the game with equal to or more Goats than the Tigers scored goals.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 10:31:19 am
Quote
The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohited
Look I only proposed kitten guided missiles in one other thread!
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2015, 10:35:28 am
Stuff like these should include the testing grounds or experimental fields. :vQuoteThe use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohited
Look I only proposed kitten guided missiles in one other thread!
That said: I am very intrigued by this thread [also Kot, your avatars are all awesome cats. I really hope to learn how to draw in very simple moves like you. Much inspire, this thread is.]
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 12:00:32 pm
Spoiler: National Sport: Tiger-Polo (click to show/hide)
Tl;dr: Motorcycle Buzkashi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi) with a dead tiger carcass.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 12:27:48 pm
I will be hearing arguments (not votes) for A and B options, from both sides, and of course Kot and 10ebbor10 in particular.I'm for B. This makes the gun have a direct counter (or rather counters, as slat armor, spaced armor and even sloped armor can be used as such), and I would be kinda salty if we had (do we? If we do, this is the best time to change it, as the problem has been already brought up) something like that. Also, I'm not really sure that HEAT would change the thing a whole lot, after all, AP from Breaker doesn't seem to have trouble penetrating us, and I'm not sure that ~4cm HEAT rounds would be much better than APHE, maybe only at long distances.
EDIT:
Also, regarding the war crime thing, would the law work backwards? If so, Moskurg should pay for Fyodor Billotzic execution by tigers.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 12:34:03 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 12:45:19 pm
Should be noted that Moksburg already got shaped charge (which aren't exactly the same as HEAT, but very close). So deciding that the Hippo was using shaped charge all along wouldn't be game-changing.
Quote from: Worstpedia
The common term in military terminology for shaped charge warheads is high explosive anti-tank (HEAT).It IS HEAT.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 12:48:05 pm
Should be noted that Moksburg already got shaped charge (which aren't exactly the same as HEAT, but very close). So deciding that the Hippo was using shaped charge all along wouldn't be game-changing.Sensei has explitedly said that it will improve Moskurg anti-armor performance significantly.
Quote
This would improve moskurg anti-armor performance considerably.
Speaking of which, I find the entire B option kind of flawed
>Nerf the AP, but explain previous performance by giving it moderately effective HEAT rounds.
So far so good.
>On the other hand, these HEAT rounds would be available for Breaker guns and possibly SPATs, as a matter of consistency. This would improve moskurg anti-armor performance considerably.
Wait a moment. Didn't we just add the HEAT to explain past performance, and hence be consistent with past turns?
And thus, would adding a significant bonus to Moskurg Breaker guns not once again break that consistency, by causing past guns to have been worse than they should have been?
Hence, my option C proposal. (Rename APHE to HEAT, no performance changes).
Advantages :
- Consistent with past and future performance of all weaponry
- Consistent with expected performance of all weaponry
- Resolves the ambiguity currently present, where in-game APHE (AP charges with explosive on the back to improve penetration) refers to something entirely different than those IRL. (AP shells with HE inside to improve damage)
- Does not punish Arztotska for the audacity to speak up.
- Does not retroactively damage Moskurg
Disadvantages :
- None
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 12:50:23 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 12:55:52 pm
>The Final Word on Recoilless RiflesI'd hazard the real option C is frost giants going around smacking Arstotzka for being salty, given that there's only able to be arguements for either options A or B
Argument C: For all point and purposes, the Moskurgian APHE (which has no similarity to real life APHE) acts as a primitive HEAT warhead though it is not described as such. (The way it is described would generally only succeed in shooting shrapnel in the face of your own troops). Simply rename that the primitive HEAT, no need to change performance.
Anyway, I can stand for either option, though B offers more consistency between RL and the game (And I'm not saying this just because our tanks will get more dangerous thanks to that as well, no siree >.>). Though given that slat armour isn't particularly effective against cannon shots given the fuze is at the back of the round, not the front.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:03:21 pm
This would improve moskurg anti-armor performance considerably.Would it though? HEAT isin't some kind of wonder warhead, AP and APHE are considerably better at actual penetration and damage usually (and Breaker guns have no trouble doing that apparently) the HEAT just doesn't rely on muzzle velocity so much and don't lose penetration capability over distance, it relies on size of charge more, and Breaker caliber is smaller than Hippo and Rhino. The only true change would be Breaker cannon, as it's ~9cm big artillery gun.
I'm under the impression that HEAT involve a metal layer inside the shaped charge to punch through the armor.So does shaped charge, usually.
Disadvantages: Rewards Arstotzka for being salty about a game (Speaking up is fine. Several pages of whining about it is not)We wouldn't whine for several pages if we weren't ignored, insulted (it's fine when it's all a joke for both sides) and threatened (like, even now) for bringing up a problem.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 01:04:40 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:08:27 pm
The thing is though is that it isn't a problem.It is, considering the whole game is at least mildly realistic and suddenly magic weapons pop up.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 01:09:02 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:13:00 pm
Keyword being mildly.Pre-WWII recoiless guns penetrating medium armor with APHE aren't mildly realistic, they are not realistic at all, as they defy the laws of physics.
Your idea of powered exoskeleton that is going on right now in your thread is better, even if it's like at least 60 or rather 80 years ahead.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 01:20:11 pm
both sides not running out of manpower after 20 years of brutally slaughtering one another is realistic?
i can go on
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:23:31 pm
a backwards island in the middle of nowhere fielding tanks in 1915 is realistic?Fielding tanks doesn't break laws of physics, and while not running out of manpower may, it's for mutual fun of both sides.
both sides not running out of manpower after 20 years of brutally slaughtering one another is realistic?
i can go on
One side having a magic weapon that the other can at best suck on isin't.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 01:24:01 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 01:25:14 pm
I'm under the impression that HEAT involve a metal layer inside the shaped charge to punch through the armor.Yes, and their APHE is described as a round where the armor penetrating part is propelled into the armor by an explosive in the back.
Disadvantages: Rewards Arstotzka for being salty about a game (Speaking up is fine. Several pages of whining about it is not)Well, except it doesn't reward us. Rewarding us would mean taking your fancy toy away.
given that there's only able to be arguements for either options A or BFor reasons that should be abundantly clear, I will deliberaty ignore that.
My proposal is an agreeable compromise for all.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 01:27:35 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 01:30:34 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:31:34 pm
No, option C is only agreeable for Arstotzka. I say there'd be no support for it among Moskurg's players.Understandable, considering that most (at least those being vocal) of your players want to win at all cost, even if it means basically cheating.
You see, we're roleplaying, you're rollplaying.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 01:32:18 pm
You see, we're saltplaying, you're rollplaying.
fixed that for you
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 01:33:03 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 15, 2015, 01:38:23 pm
I'm really, really fed up with the call for revenge from a couple of Arstotzkans. Is it a proper response/solution for an admin oversight?
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 01:39:54 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:41:10 pm
Yeah Kot, no need to be antagonistic.I am as antagonistic as they are, I mean come on, they're vaguely insulting us all the time (Also, threats of dust devils/ice giants, even after Sensei agreed that this is indeed unrealistic), like, even right now, just because they don't like us calling out on their magic weapons.
Just retcon the Rhino and Hippo to have enough HE charge to damage the dashed tanks.~5,5 cm HE enough to damage medium armor? Yeah, no, that's not going to happen.
Post by: evilcherry on August 15, 2015, 01:47:24 pm
What revenge?Option C is basically equivalent to retconning one revise phase away from us. All because of GM oversight.
Your side and rear armor is always said to be light or paper-thin. In this sense HE should be enough to pop open a few rivets.Yeah Kot, no need to be antagonistic.I am as antagonistic as they are, I mean come on, they're vaguely insulting us all the time (Also, threats of dust devils/ice giants, even after Sensei agreed that this is indeed unrealistic), like, even right now, just because they don't like us calling out on their magic weapons.Just retcon the Rhino and Hippo to have enough HE charge to damage the dashed tanks.~5,5 cm HE enough to damage medium armor? Yeah, no, that's not going to happen.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 01:48:15 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 01:50:17 pm
Your side and rear armor is always said to be light or paper-thin. In this sense HE should be enough to pop open a few rivets.T-25 is medium all-around. Yeah, ~5,5 cm of HE isin't going to pop that open.
EDIT:
I am going, don't expect to hear from me in next few hours, the damn thunderstorms drive me crazy.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 01:54:30 pm
Option C is basically equivalent to retconning one revise phase away from us. All because of GM oversight.
Not really. It takes this round, which in game means this :
Quote
-Armor-Piercing High Explosive (APHE): Armor-piercing shells, with explosives in the rear. The explosives detonate on impact, adding force to the round. Available for tank guns, and bombardiers.
But in real life means this
Quote
An armor piercing shell, filled with explosives which detonate on a fuze inside the shell, thus greatly amplifying the damage.
to HEAT.
Clearly, the description and functioning of the round as it's in game (ie, increasing penetration at long range) fits much better with HEAT than with IRL APHE.
Besides, it's not exactly a GM oversight. We called it out before it happened. Saying he didn't know about it would be disingenuous.
Your side and rear armor is always said to be light or paper-thin. In this sense HE should be enough to pop open a few rivets.What, no ?
Our tank is fully armored with medium armor in every direction. I have no more problems with you taking out our armored cars or tank destroyers with a shot in the back.
I am as antagonistic as they are, I mean come on, they're vaguely insulting us all the time (Also, threats of dust devils/ice giants, even after Sensei agreed that this is indeed unrealistic), like, even right now, just because they don't like us calling out on their magic weapons.
Yes, and I very much like to keep the Moral high ground here.
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 02:01:11 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 15, 2015, 02:12:36 pm
That's what exactly constitutes a GM oversight. GM made an error, and based his decisions on an error, which has always been the intended result with or without the error. In this case he overlooked the error, because if the error is correctly considered the result would be drastically different.Option C is basically equivalent to retconning one revise phase away from us. All because of GM oversight.
Not really. It takes this round, which in game means this :Quote-Armor-Piercing High Explosive (APHE): Armor-piercing shells, with explosives in the rear. The explosives detonate on impact, adding force to the round. Available for tank guns, and bombardiers.
But in real life means thisQuoteAn armor piercing shell, filled with explosives internally which detonate on a fuze inside the shell, thus greatly amplifying the damage.
to HEAT.
Clearly, the description and functioning of the round as it's in game (ie, increasing penetration at long range) fits much better with HEAT than with IRL APHE.
Besides, it's not exactly a GM oversight. We called it out before it happened. Saying he didn't know about it would be disingenuous.
Quote
What moral high ground? Is it now high time to go back to the usual Arstotzkan shell of claiming that "Oh GM you are helping Moskurg unfairly again"?Your side and rear armor is always said to be light or paper-thin. In this sense HE should be enough to pop open a few rivets.What, no ?
Our tank is fully armored with medium armor in every direction. I have no more problems with you taking out our armored cars or tank destroyers with a shot in the back.I am as antagonistic as they are, I mean come on, they're vaguely insulting us all the time (Also, threats of dust devils/ice giants, even after Sensei agreed that this is indeed unrealistic), like, even right now, just because they don't like us calling out on their magic weapons.
Yes, and I very much like to keep the Moral high ground here.
Should I also point out the fact that your fighter aircraft whose airframe derives from a high-dihedral gull wing dive bomber should never beat our Model 3? Yet we never put on such a concerted effort to force the GM to concede ground to you!
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 15, 2015, 02:24:14 pm
Quote
Should I also point out the fact that your fighter aircraft whose airframe derives from a high-dihedral gull wing dive bomber should never beat our Model 3?This is... wrong. Fighter that is more durable, has something like 4 times more firepower and more powerful engine can compete with one machinegun half-wooden thing. I offered it exactly to outperform model 1 by reaching comparable speed but getting much, much more firepower.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 02:26:25 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 02:29:12 pm
That's what exactly constitutes a GM oversight. GM made an error, and based his decisions on an error, which has always been the intended result with or without the error. In this case he overlooked the error, because if the error is correctly considered the result would be drastically different.Not really. I mean, we pointed out that the Recoillesss Rifle would be ineffective before the turn was written.
Quote
What moral high ground? Is it now high time to go back to the usual Arstotzkan shell of claiming that "Oh GM you are helping Moskurg unfairly again"?
This moral high ground. Notice how I haven't used any strawman's, threats or anything like that.
I have no claimed the GM helped Moskurg unfairly, or recall someone else doing it. I do recall claiming that a design should not exist yet, or that it's performance is unrealistic. And I will admit that the word might have fallen that this would give an unfair advantage to Moskurg.
However, to jump from there to the statement that we claim that the GM is unfairly helping Moskurg is a gross exaggeration. After all, that statement assumes we assume that the GM is deliberately acting out of malice against us, which is not the case.
We want to resolve an error, and the proposed solution is one that will harm neither Moskurg nor Arztotska. It improves in game consistency (both internal and with real life), while maintaining the status quo.
Quote
Should I also point out the fact that your fighter aircraft whose airframe derives from a high-dihedral gull wing dive bomber should never beat our Model 3? Yet we never put on such a concerted effort to force the GM to concede ground to you!Our aircraft does not utilize a dihedral gull wing.
Yes, you saw that propaganda picture. No, that isn't how it looks in the game, no matter how much you want it to be. I could draw a gold plated version of our tank now (Theoretically, I can't draw tanks, or at all). Doesn't mean it's armored in gold.
Succesfull fighter/dive bomber conversions exist, so nothing unrealistic is going on here.
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 02:41:38 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 15, 2015, 02:45:08 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 02:48:18 pm
tbh i'd be of the persuasion that sensei should shut it down until people stop being saltyAt this precise moment, not to much salt going around actually.
Kot's away, so if Moskurg lays off with the subtle antagonism that problem is resolved and honest discussion can resolve.
Not that there's much to discuss really.
Still haven't seen any good argument against option C.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 02:49:28 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 02:53:30 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 02:59:19 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 15, 2015, 03:00:55 pm
Well considering people on your side have called us cheaters time and time again...
You guys are the ones who told us you kept reading our thread for counters/ideas without using a spy...
Post by: evilcherry on August 15, 2015, 03:01:29 pm
Also, it should be noted that we have a shaped-charge warhead for the AS-RPG28 without having HEAT rounds for our other guns, so there is a precedent for that as well.How about nerfing both sides once again? This can also be an option. So the AS-RPG28 only fires HE, and the Rhino/Hippo does the same.
Enough is enough.Well considering people on your side have called us cheaters time and time again...You guys are the ones who told us you kept reading our thread for counters/ideas without using a spy...
If this kind of behaviour persists I propose HEAT technology be given to Moskurg for endless Arstotzkan QQing.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:02:37 pm
Also, Sensei, how are ore costs calculated? Both our aluminium planes are 4 ore, and their YellowThing is only 3. Is it smaller?
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:03:37 pm
Maybe I missed it, but I never saw this, I heard one of our guys went into your thread to banter with you, and sheb did the same in ours.Well considering people on your side have called us cheaters time and time again...
You guys are the ones who told us you kept reading our thread for counters/ideas without using a spy...
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 03:06:04 pm
Also, Sensei, how are ore costs calculated? Both our aluminium planes are 4 ore, and their YellowThing is only 3. Is it smaller?The base cost of our plane is 2 Ore due to its use of an aluminium structure, but making the inside entirely of aluminium adds 1 Ore and making the outside entirely of aluminium adds another 1 Ore.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:07:36 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:09:55 pm
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 03:11:18 pm
Yeah, it's an open secret we read each other's thread, and Sensei said its okay. Using that info to design a counter (Like if we decided to revise our AA guns because we know they are making a new fighter) is illegal, but no one ever really did that, apart from one suspicious moment about a plane that we all agree to leave behind.Wait what? When did we do this? Are you talking about the balloon? We abandoned that because we had other useful projects and we realised what a bad idea it would be considering they could counter it by just shooting it with their rifles.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 03:12:15 pm
And sheb has the right of it about the thread reading. Also, it was tryrar that went into our thread, not sheb. Or atleast I don't recall sheb doing so.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:14:32 pm
Also, regarding airplanes, they're both monoprops too:
Model 4 Yellowjacket: A fighter aircraft, built fully of aluminum. (...) Costs 3 ore, 3 oil.
AS-DB-HF-23: An airplane built entirely from aluminium. (...) Costs 4 ore, 3 oil.
Edit: I guess it could be the larger gun, although you have more MG. Or maybe you just rolled better?
And I did post into your thread once to answer a question from Kashyyk.
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 03:14:32 pm
And no, I never posted in your thread. The only thing that happened is I made a joke about your new MG in our thread before we were finished designing(TBF, that was the turn where we HAD to counter your tank in any way we could due to our design costing way more than we hoped, and our revision of it failing the previous turn, so I thought it was safe to do so. :/)
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 03:18:26 pm
They developed a recoilless rifle, effective against the tanks currently in use. Which is perfectly reasonable looking at various historical models.
Particularly when all existing tanks have medium or less armor that is not as effective as modern tank armor.
Sensei gave us two reasonable options, I am gonna go with A despite the fact it basically invalidates like 4 turns of work we did by rendering tanks useless.
Because lets just go with what the GM said, it is distracting from the game far too much.
And if we do steal the new horseback mounted multi shot RR it can be fielded from every Arstostkan motorcycle.
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:23:16 pm
Artotzka has a few who want to status quo, and want the game to continue. And a few who want to see Moskurg punished.
Andw eve fallen into a rut of all four groups arguing with each other.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:24:19 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 03:25:54 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 03:26:42 pm
This moral high ground. Notice how I haven't used any strawman's, threats or anything like that.I indeed am making insults at them too, I admit, but that's me being me, and only because I am getting bored of them calling us salty every fucking post. This is what makes me salty, and generally making the whole situation salty.
However, to jump from there to the statement that we claim that the GM is unfairly helping Moskurg is a gross exaggeration. After all, that statement assumes we assume that the GM is deliberately acting out of malice against us, which is not the case.I don't have anything against Sensei (maybe other than him treating what we say not seriously enough and not reading stuff, but that's kinda understandable considering we shit out like 20-40 pages every turn, sometimes more), I do have something against Moskurgians actively trying to cover the whole thing up, make insults, actively try to stop the whole thing from resolving and trying to make us lose voice by saying we're just being salty because we're losing (and we're not).
Succesfull fighter/dive bomber conversions exist, so nothing unrealistic is going on here.I based that propaganda picture on model someone posted before to keep thing consistent, and I do agree that is a bit too much in reality, but aircraft utilizing a gull wing doesn't mean it can't be a fighter. If anything, it's actually more manouverable. Try to use a Ju 87 D3 with gunpods in Il-2 or even War Thunder. It's turny, it's shooty (6 20mm cannons or 2 20mm cannons and 12 machineguns) it's pretty durable and generally a good plane, albeit too slow to engage enemy fighters properly. But if you do manage to get enemy in front, OH BOY).
Which is perfectly reasonable looking at various historical models.No, it's not, not without HEAT, no.
I am fine with either B or C.
Artotzka has a few who want to status quo, and want the game to continue. And a few who want to see Moskurg punished.Like who wants to see Moskurg punished on our side? Ebbor is all for just chanigng the name and I even agreed that you could have HEAT (albeit I don't think it would change much).
Also, fucking thunderstorms, the second I turn on the computer IT STARTS AGAIN, DAMN IT.
PREPOSTEDIT: NEW POST NEW POST NEW POST REVIEW YOUR POST REVIEW YOUR POST COME ON IS THERE A WAY TO TURN THIS OFF?!?
Oh, there it is.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:28:21 pm
Glory to Arstotzka!
P.S. Kot, drop it, you're only making it worse.
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:29:06 pm
I'm pretty sure we are done with both phases right now.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 03:29:42 pm
P.S. Kot, drop it, you're only making it worse.Drop what?
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:30:03 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 03:31:31 pm
The bickering and saltiness.See? See? This is what I'm talking about. The whole thing about calling people salty for no reason is main reason of salt in this thread.
EDIT: If it's not clear, it needs to stop, and stop for good.
Post by: Elfeater on August 15, 2015, 03:31:58 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 15, 2015, 03:33:14 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:34:50 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 03:36:20 pm
Yeez. Moral high ground people. Not that hard.Well considering people on your side have called us cheaters time and time again...You guys are the ones who told us you kept reading our thread for counters/ideas without using a spy...
Better than option B, however, it fails with internal game consistency which Sensei noted as being important.Also, it should be noted that we have a shaped-charge warhead for the AS-RPG28 without having HEAT rounds for our other guns, so there is a precedent for that as well.How about nerfing both sides once again? This can also be an option. So the AS-RPG28 only fires HE, and the Rhino/Hippo does the same.
I still can't see why maintaining the status quo with a simple rename would not be a better solution.
Quote
Enough is enough.Well considering people on your side have called us cheaters time and time again...You guys are the ones who told us you kept reading our thread for counters/ideas without using a spy...
If this kind of behaviour persists I propose HEAT technology be given to Moskurg for endless Arstotzkan QQing.
While I do not support the behavior of my fellow Arztotskans, I must note that demanding compensation is somewhat hypocritical considering the reaction of your team earlier in the discussion, which with the exception of LordSlowPoke, Elfeater and maybe a few other people I forgot about.
Probably the lack of a propshaft/heavy weapon actually, since our craft is also fully aluminium.Sheb answered a question you asked in your thread once, about why one of our designs worked the way it did.
And sheb has the right of it about the thread reading. Also, it was tryrar that went into our thread, not sheb. Or atleast I don't recall sheb doing so.
And yeah, I do believe the difference is the prop shaft and auto cannon.
Oh, no, but once someone complained because one airplane proposal of one side was worded a lot like the proposal from the other side. Past is past.That was me. Most ignored me, and I consider that past and buried considering Taricus did offer a convincing explanation.
This is ridiculous.
They developed a recoilless rifle, effective against the tanks currently in use. Which is perfectly reasonable looking at various historical models.
Particularly when all existing tanks have medium or less armor that is not as effective as modern tank armor.
Sensei gave us two reasonable options, I am gonna go with A despite the fact it basically invalidates like 4 turns of work we did by rendering tanks useless.
Because lets just go with what the GM said, it is distracting from the game far too much.
And if we do steal the new horseback mounted multi shot RR it can be fielded from every Arstostkan motorcycle.
You are oversimplifying the argument to the point where it makes no sense.
The problem is not that they have a functional RR.(Well, not this time) The problem is that their RR worked by shooting AP shells, something which the GM has himself admitted is silly.
The choice offered to us now is :
A) Maintain status quo
B) Change it, but give Moskurg a significant boost because we had the audacity to speak up.
The solution that I favor is :
C) Maintain mechanical status quo, but change a tiny bit of fluff to resolve the error.
I Feel like there are 2 camps on both sides, the Moskurg side has a few who say keep the status quo, and want to game to continue. And a few who and Artotzka punished.Actually, I must resent that categorization, while it's politically correct, it's not factually correct.
Artotzka has a few who want to status quo, and want the game to continue. And a few who want to see Moskurg punished.
Andw eve fallen into a rut of all four groups arguing with each other.
There's no one on the Arztotskan team arguing for the punishment of Moskurg. All of us are arguing for a simple change which has no mechanical effects or just for the status-quo.
Hell, a few people are even arguing to give the boost to Moskurg, as long as the error is resolved.
[Though I do resent that on general principle, not because it will boost Moskurg, but because I find it petty to be punished for being right.]
At this moment, you are. Might not have been at the beginning, but at this moment you are.The bickering and saltiness.See? See? This is what I'm talking about. The whole thing about calling people salty for no reason is main reason of salt in this thread.
Who has said you are losing? You guys are pushing the desert, and yet you in particular Kot keep saying that we are somehow magically killing all your tanks, even though you are advancing.Magically killing tanks, not magically winning.
Note that Kot was willing to give you HEAT, in order to resolve that inconsistency.
Seriously guys, can we all simply STOP? we've made our case to sensei, it's his decision now, so EVERYONE drop it. No more dscussion.To be honest, the case has been made, but Moskurg hasn't voiced any coherent opposition yet.
I mean, so far it has consisted out of ad hominem's and other accusations.
Edit: If this post gets more confrontational by it's end, it's because of all these damn ninjas.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 03:37:32 pm
Why don't we organize a Forenian Sport Championship during a short truce?Actually, do it in a longer truce in 1936?
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 03:40:20 pm
Kot keep saying that we are somehow magically killing all your tanksNo, I didin't. I only said you are somehow magically killing our tanks, not all of them. And the magical killing can be resolved with one of many options proposed.
At this moment, you are. Might not have been at the beginning, but at this moment you are.You're right, I am indeed salty because of all this accusations of salt. You guys literally talked me into it. I am becoming a salt giant.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 03:40:46 pm
Sensei, do I have authorization for this?
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 03:42:37 pm
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 04:04:23 pm
-1! No truce! Only War until Arstotzka destroys Moskurg! Glory to Arstotzka!Why don't we organize a Forenian Sport Championship during a short truce?Actually, do it in a longer truce in 1936?
Speaking of sports, though, how are we gonna handle the olympics?
I vote for option C, by the way. The error is resolved and Moskurg keeps their weapon. I see no downsides.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 04:07:10 pm
I propose we sneak something in requiring all warfare to be one on one duels between members of the high command.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2015, 04:08:53 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 04:10:36 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 04:12:48 pm
One the one hand Arstotzka High Command is made of idiot and would probably shoot themselves. On the other hand, we'd loose the duel.We have a weapon designed for that occasion. We give them our pistols.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 04:13:34 pm
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Kashyyk on August 15, 2015, 04:18:43 pm
All in all though, I'm off the opinion that GM's word is law, and so we should've just left it.
Five new replies, Christ.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 04:24:56 pm
Maybe if Moskurg had to do a revision action to convert the RR HEAT for use in other weapons first, I'd be more open to it.Actually, this isn't a bad idea. We didn't get HEAT for the rest of our weapons when we developed our RPG. It could be a similar thing with the RR. I'm just gonna call this option D.
I support option D with a secondary vote of option C.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 04:41:13 pm
What is the tetriary Colour of Arstotzka? Primary and secondary is proably red and gold respectively, but I need a third one. What would it be?
Also, for future reference, what would be tetriary colour of Moskurg? Primary and secondary is blue and silver respectively, but I need a third one. What would it be?
By the way, are there any colours of Forenia? I suppose that primay and secondary could be red and blue respectively, but I need a third one. What would it be?
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 04:42:40 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 15, 2015, 04:46:36 pm
I think it would be maroon/red, gold, and black or white for Arstotzka...
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 04:47:52 pm
Making a flag for the continent Kot?Not yet, but I thought of it.
I think it would be maroon/red, gold, and black or white for Arstotzka...Dunno, black or white could work I think. I'll check.
EDIT:
White could work, after all, we're having a lot of snow here. As long as it's not yellow snow.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 04:49:44 pm
Actually any united flag for the continent would likely be from the colonial period since the two nations formed right afterwards.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 04:54:40 pm
Well blue and red could be from the UK occupation.Fuck that period. They tried to stop us from fighting.
Actually any united flag for the continent would likely be from the colonial period since the two nations formed right afterwards.
Post by: Baffler on August 15, 2015, 04:56:40 pm
(http://flag-designer.appspot.com/gwtflags/SvgFileService?d=9&c1=2&c2=7&c3=7&o=2&c4=0&s=3&c5=5)
Moskurg blue and Arstotzkan crimson symbolize the constituent Forenian nations. The black bar is a remembrance of the conflict of their history, but it is set behind the bright rising sun which represents the glory of our shared future.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 15, 2015, 04:57:48 pm
Well blue and red could be from the UK occupation.Fuck that period. They tried to stop us from fighting.
Actually any united flag for the continent would likely be from the colonial period since the two nations formed right afterwards.
That's my point, I doubt there would be a united flag except by outside forceful control.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 05:09:37 pm
How about this for a united Forenian flag? If someone should ever actually win the war.Sun creates desert and melts snow.
(http://flag-designer.appspot.com/gwtflags/SvgFileService?d=9&c1=2&c2=7&c3=7&o=2&c4=0&s=3&c5=5)
Moskurg blue and Arstotzkan crimson symbolize the constituent Forenian nations. The black bar is a remembrance of the conflict of their history, but it is set behind the bright rising sun which represents the glory of our shared future.
0/10 biased towards Moskurgs.
That's my point, I doubt there would be a united flag except by outside forceful control.Or inside forceful control.
Really, the united flag proably would be the one of winning faction.
or something else actually, but I'm not saying what just yet.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 05:10:40 pm
From a Moskurgian point of view, there's no real downside, either an upside or a neutral side. So, I'd say A, as that seems fairest. If we want to improve our RR, we'll have to design HEAT rounds, like Arstotzka has had to, compared to B which gives us tech because Arstotzka complained. Maybe if Moskurg had to do a revision action to convert the RR HEAT for use in other weapons first, I'd be more open to it.There is actually a downside. In regards to option C, they're essentially giving us HEAT, without the technology. Now, given that the shell in a RR is essentially similar to that of an actual cannon, applying the shot to the rounds in our tanks wouldn't be much of an issue for us. I know Sensei's been lax in updating our tech list, but deliberately getting him to ignore that is more than a little unfair.
All in all though, I'm off the opinion that GM's word is law, and so we should've just left it.
Five new replies, Christ.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 15, 2015, 05:19:10 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 15, 2015, 05:22:10 pm
There is actually a downside. In regards to option C, they're essentially giving us HEAT, without the technology. Now, given that the shell in a RR is essentially similar to that of an actual cannon, applying the shot to the rounds in our tanks wouldn't be much of an issue for us. I know Sensei's been lax in updating our tech list, but deliberately getting him to ignore that is more than a little unfair.I don't see how not getting an additionall bonus after the GM made an error in your favor is, in any way, unfair. Besides, we designed a HEAT warhead for our RPG, but didn't get it for anything else, so there's precedent there.
Anyway, you seem to misunderstand Option C. Option C is not about giving you HEAT without giving you the tech. Option C says that you had (primitive) HEAT all along, because your APHE acted and is described like a HEAT shell, rather than an RL APHE shell, thus solving everything with a simple rename to avoid further confusion.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 05:24:24 pm
There is actually a downside. In regards to option C, they're essentially giving us HEAT, without the technology. Now, given that the shell in a RR is essentially similar to that of an actual cannon, applying the shot to the rounds in our tanks wouldn't be much of an issue for us. I know Sensei's been lax in updating our tech list, but deliberately getting him to ignore that is more than a little unfair.Well what's the difference? If you get option C, you get the ability to kill our tanks and no HEAT technology. Without option C, you get the ability to kill our tanks and no HEAT technology, except the method with which you kill our tanks makes no sense. That's assuming option C doesn't give you the tech.
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 06:20:05 pm
FINALLY! AN TRUE ARSTOTZKAN MANS UP AND STANDS AGAINST MAGIC!
YOU WILL GET A MEDAL COMRADE!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sadly, Medal Of Glory is awarded only posthumously, so call me when you die, ebbor.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:29:08 pm
The spelling of GLORY looks weird. It took me a couple seconds to decode what it meant by GOYRL meant. My suggestion is make it clockwise like you'd find on coins. I don't like the bigger pillow thing (I'd prefer a special book) and I oppose giving it to anyone but war heroes. Our leader will have to do without unless he died in battle.FINALLY! AN TRUE ARSTOTZKAN MANS UP AND STANDS AGAINST MAGIC!
YOU WILL GET A MEDAL COMRADE!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 06:30:22 pm
The spelling of GLORY looks weird. It took me a couple seconds to decode what it meant by GOYRL meant. My suggestion is make it clockwise like you'd find on coins.Dunno, it looks fine to me, as it's not a coin. But whatever, I may fix it. Right now, gaems.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:30:51 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 06:35:23 pm
I oppose giving it to anyone but war heroes. Our leader will have to do without unless he died in battle.Welcome to another country led by "glorious leader". At least they get it after they die. I considered the book too, but ultimately decided that name mattress is more "glorious".
By the way, thank you very much, I too consider it's nice.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:37:40 pm
By the way, thank you very much, I too consider it's nice.Sorry, it does look pretty good regardless. I guess I'm just picky. :-\
Hey Sensei, I don't think our planes should cost as much Ore as they do. It costs 4 Ore to make a triplane out of aluminium but that has lots of supports for the wings and thus requires lots of Ore to make it all out of aluminium. A monoplane needs no supports and as such a fully aluminium one should only cost a maximum of 3 Ore.
Post by: Taricus on August 15, 2015, 06:39:30 pm
Post by: Kot on August 15, 2015, 06:48:25 pm
GOYRLThe way I wrote it is based on "cross" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_William_Order) orders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valour_Cross), where the spelling goes Up, left, right, down. Those only have four wings tho, so when there's five it may look weird.
Post by: Andres on August 15, 2015, 06:55:46 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 12:16:12 am
Again, it's probably the turboprop/autocannon adding onto the price.
Well, the autocannon ain't made of aluminium, and you've got quite a lot of firepower too. Not bitching here, but it'd be nice to know what the reasoning behind it is (if there is one, Sensei has been known to mistype prices from time to time), for future design.
Also, according to your tech list, rebels are still preventing you from having more than one Ore. :p
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 12:21:18 am
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 12:26:57 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 16, 2015, 01:39:27 am
I think the correlation goes in the other direction: the slowing of the game is causing the discussion. :pand a particular few Arstotzkans aren't willing to drop it.
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 01:46:40 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 16, 2015, 04:53:08 am
Sensei specifically asked us for our opinion about how to resolve the issue. Of course we're discussing it.Honestly we are all now at a "hell we couldn't care less, stop QQing" mode.
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 04:56:00 am
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 04:59:32 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 16, 2015, 05:00:14 am
Quote
QQ is an acronym often used in online communication to signify two crying eyes.
Evilcherry is being very subtle and mature.
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 05:00:36 am
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 05:03:01 am
But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.I'm not talking about your sport idea because I like my motor sports idea better. :-\
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 16, 2015, 05:13:38 am
But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.
It's a classic "poisoning the well" strategy. By describing our reactions as petty and childlike, and in some cases even successfully eliciting such a response by acting extremely hostile, they try to discredit us, because it's quite clear now they don't actually have a proper argument.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 16, 2015, 05:23:14 am
But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.
i was talking about the treaty before the thread was full of salt and would actually like to return to that
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 05:29:18 am
But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.I'm not talking about your sport idea because I like my motor sports idea better. :-\
I meant the idea of having a spin-off forum game where we compete in our sport ideas.
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 05:31:26 am
Nah, don't think it would be fun.But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.I'm not talking about your sport idea because I like my motor sports idea better. :-\
I meant the idea of having a spin-off forum game where we compete in our sport ideas.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 16, 2015, 05:37:11 am
But we're not crying for Christ's sake. If you don't like a discussion, just sit it out, it's not like anyone seems to be interested in talking about treaties, or my sport event idea, or anything else.
i was talking about the treaty before the thread was full of salt and would actually like to return to that
Sure, feel free.
What was the latest iteration?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 16, 2015, 05:43:41 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- The mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners is prohibited.
- All prisoners should have access to a basic cot, three meals a day, and should not be subject to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohibited
i believe it looked at this
1. point #5 does not specify what happens if for whichever reason the country responsible for imprisonment decides to provide quarters superior to what is written
2. in point #4, it is probable that the
Quote
should not be subject to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumanefrom #5 should be merged with #4, as it constitutes a subset of mistreatment//excessive interrogation
3. suggested creation of highway or railway through contested territories (plains, mountains, jungle) and its destruction being prohibited (vehicles would not be subject to this clause and their destruction, as long as this does not damage the underlying railway/highway, would be allowed)
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 05:52:14 am
1. point #5 does not specify what happens if for whichever reason the country responsible for imprisonment decides to provide quarters superior to what is written
2. in point #4, it is probable that theQuoteshould not be subject to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumanefrom #5 should be merged with #4, as it constitutes a subset of mistreatment//excessive interrogation
- All prisoners must be treated humanely. They must be given at least three meals a day and a cot equivalent or better. It is prohibited to subject prisoners to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 05:53:03 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 16, 2015, 05:55:37 am
LSP, we're both already creating roads through the jungle.
yes, but i'm thinking of a big ol' demilitarized road for ~official business~ etc.
just toss one up on the plains and have the legit envoys travel through it instead of sneaking through border control or however arstotzka and moskung even talk to one another nowadays
This good?
- All prisoners must be treated humanely. They must be given at least three meals a day and a cot equivalent or better. It is prohibited to subject prisoners to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
yeah, pretty solid, throw it in
i want the road in the treaty though
Post by: Andres on August 16, 2015, 05:58:40 am
i want the road in the treaty thoughNo. I strongly object to this. If you want to make a treaty where we make a road, it will be a separate treaty. This treaty is exclusively about war crimes.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 05:59:21 am
Post by: Elfeater on August 16, 2015, 06:42:21 am
And we already have a railroad going through the plains.Can we send back an exile into your country via an armoured train?
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 06:48:20 am
Post by: Taricus on August 16, 2015, 06:49:22 am
(Seriously, there's no B in it.)
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 06:50:57 am
Moskurger so poor and pathetic can't even afford more than seven letters.
Post by: Elfeater on August 16, 2015, 06:55:20 am
Post by: Kot on August 16, 2015, 07:05:37 am
EDIT:
Also, ideas for art. No Konstatin The Bear yet tho, I'm working on it but you can try to make Putins face only so long, eeew. Give me something else, and fast, or I'll start to get sexually aroused by Putin.
EDIT2: Stupid sexy Putin.
EDIT3: RIP Arms Race, you were so young.
EDIT4: Yup, you did it, it's dead. It's dead, and it's your fault!
Post by: andrea on August 16, 2015, 03:33:06 pm
as for the treaty, the latest iteration seems fine.
as for the RR, I am fine with whatever solution makes it plausible for it to keep current performance.
Post by: Baffler on August 16, 2015, 04:01:27 pm
LSP, we're both already creating roads through the jungle.
yes, but i'm thinking of a big ol' demilitarized road for ~official business~ etc.
just toss one up on the plains and have the legit envoys travel through it instead of sneaking through border control or however arstotzka and moskung even talk to one another nowadays
I reject this on the premise that it implies we have any interest in talking to the yokels currently occupying Moskurg's rightful territory, outside of the jointly operated salt mines already in service.
Post by: Kot on August 16, 2015, 04:42:30 pm
EDIT:
What is the current state of roads and railways in Forenia? Like, are areas like jungle, mountains, etc connected by roads? Is the Arstotzka - plains - desert - Moskurg railroad the only one?
Post by: Sheb on August 16, 2015, 10:48:52 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 17, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Sodium is my body, and Chlorine is my blood
I have created over a thousand proposals
Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
Have withstood RNG to create many weapons
Yet, GM rules our hands will never hold anything
So as I pray, unlimited salt works.
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 02:20:07 am
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 02:24:08 am
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 02:24:54 am
Sorry for the delay! Posting is now underway.
Oh good, this IS continuing! And at least we'll have a settlement on the Hippo so the salt can stop flowing
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 03:34:58 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 17, 2015, 03:38:04 am
establish moskurgian import-export company, specializing in airmailed forenian salt
well excuse me, we got there first
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 03:41:30 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 17, 2015, 03:42:47 am
now give me that salt revenue
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 03:45:57 am
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 03:47:38 am
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 03:49:14 am
- All profits of forenia salt trade are to be used to fund prisoner camps and relief aid to populations who have been evacuated or otherwise lost their source of income ,shelter and/or food due to the war
not really serious.
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 03:50:39 am
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 05:06:26 am
Army status list after battle report, because I accidentally the battle report first.
War Crimes
A lot of people are concerned about violating the Geneva Protocol/Hague Conventions and similar. I can say that your countries are not signatory to any international war crime treaty. In my brief research I haven't yet found any clear record of how these were enforced on non-signatory countries, either in theory or in practice. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a good article on that subject. I would probably use a simplified version in game (these treaties are long man), the biggest tenet being the banned use of gas weapons and poisons, with expanding bullets and such probably banned as well (I will warn any nation before they go ahead with designing/revising treaty-violating weapons so there is no ambiguity). Anyway, I'd like to have these as a game mechanic with clear rules rather than ambiguous ones players are fearful and unsure of.
Update: From what I can tell, League of Nations members did decide to that their war crime treaties should be enforced upon non-signatory nations, but only after the end of World War II when the question of what to do with people responsible for various atrocities in that war were raised. As such, don't expect anyone playing world police, but see below.
The Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
At the risk of turning this into a diplomacy game: High Command of each Nation is proposing a war treaty. In a game-changing, landmark historical event, some basic articles, such as "Prisoners will not be served as meals to other prisoners", "Prisoners will not be served as meals to tigers or bears" and "Prisoners are friends, not food" have already been agreed upon! It also forbids to weaponized use of the Ark of the Covenant, if it is ever found. They are looking to the engineers of both sides to form the section of the agreement that pertains to which weapons are allowed and not allowed.
You may draft an agreement which describes forms of banned weapons, eg "All gas and chemical weapons are banned, and the use of tigers as weapons is banned" or "landmines may not be stacked on top of one another" or even "Moskurg may not use recoilless rifles, and Arstotzka may not use RPGs" and then this agreement must be ratified by a majority of voting players on each side. The terms can be whatever you want, even unreasonable stuff if both nations agree. You can even get creative and, for example, make provisions for future additions. Beware of loopholes, or use them to your advantage. High command will refuse to deploy any banned weapon out of a superstitious, unfounded fear of frost giants/sand devils, but also because the country which is victim to treaty violation will receive a game-breaking amount of foreign aid expense credits and materials.
This was posted earlier, but not surprisingly, so far there has been no agreement. I would like to amend that in the case of any claims that a nation has violated the treaty, a reasonable arbitrary party will interpret the treaty, before you try to argue that the treaty bans gas weapons and gunpowder creates gas which propels bullets, so everyone has to start using swords now.
National Sports
Arstotzka's national sport is motor racing. Races are dangerous and rules are few, and half of the entertainment is seeing what kind of vehicles drivers will arrive in, as well as the fireworks (some are real fireworks, some are burning bits of car). Moskurg's national sport is Tiger, a game in which a team of 20 "goats" tries to keep a ball away from four "tigers", who beat the crap out of the goats. Tigers get points by putting the ball through a hoop, goats get points by not falling or being tackled to the floor by the end of the match.
Arstotzka's national sport wins this one. Tourists come from across the sea to watch races on Arstotzka's biggest race tracks. A ship even leaves with a load of Arstotzkan cars. Apparently there's some kind of economic collapse in America, there's less tourists overall than one might expect. Nonetheless, Arstotzka earns an expense credit.
Recoilless Rifles
I would like to say I have seen undue salt on both sides. Moskurg APHE rounds are changed to HEAT rounds. They are as effective as APHE has been, which is to say, better at armor penetration than normal AP. In the future, disputes about weapon effectiveness/game balance which are not polite will be ignored.
1930 Battle Report
This year, Moskurg worked year-round to design their new Model 4 Yellowjacket, a fighter with a lot of machine guns that goes fast and turns faster than other planes currently in the air. Like the current Arstotzkan aircraft, it still has no turbo. Arstotzka introduced their first telescopic sight, the AS-O30, which is very similar to the Moskurg one, in that it's expensive, not adjustable, has iffy quality and needs to be custom fitted. Arstotzka also revised their AS-MC16 SMG. The new AS-MC16A "Andres" includes a rear and fore grip which makes the weapon much easier to handle, an action which is cheaper without sacrificing functionality, and an optional 54-round magazine consisting of two drums which makes the gun look like a, well, you know. Arstotzka also began using Tiger's Whisper style encrypted messages. Their favored technique is to encrypt the message twice with different key cards.
This year, Moskurg spends their Expense Credit on the T2 Breaker. It is now Expensive.
Agent Sandworm tries to get into Arstotzka's harbor along with this year's wave of tourists, but first forgets to bring an entry permit in addition to her passport. Agent Promised Crucible spent the year tricking Agent Sandworm into believing she needed things like entry permits, which are not currently used at Arstotzkan entry checkpoints at all, which allowed her to be identified, but elaborate plans for her demise involving sharks and hand grenades backfired harmlessly.
Agent Sandworm then devised an elaborate plan for securing Tiger's Whisper messages: Run them through the machine three times. Arstotzkan cryptologists are baffled. This means that this year, both sides have secure communications, except in the occasional instances in which code key cards and schedules are stolen.
The war in the air is upset by the introduction of Moskurg's Model 4 Yellowjacket. It can outrun, out-climb and out-turn the AS-HF-24, so it usually wins in dogfights. It has ample firepower with its six M3 Sorraia machine guns, but these do have less accuracy at range than the Arstotzkan AC-18, due to their use of smaller rounds. They are also good for strafing soft ground targets, but cannot harm AS-MV21's or tanks. The AS-DB-HF-23 is a better bomber than the Model 2 Hornet, due to its better speed and maneuverability with a similar payload, so although less Arstotzkan bombers get through to attack ground targets, they get more kills. They are also better at evading ground-to-air fire. Overall, air performance is similar between the two nations.
In the jungle, Arstotzka deploys their new AS-MC16A. Troops love it. Its ease of handling and optional larger magazine are enough to give Arstotzkan soldiers parity with fierce Moskurg ones in close range fighting. Close range fights for both sides are now a constant chatter of SMG fire punctuated by explosions. The majority of those explosions are Arstotzkan hand grenades and mortar fire. Moskurg squads use the Rhino to deploy anti-infantry explosives at a greater range with direct fire than throw grenades, but mostly refuse to use the Hippo, which often malfunctions in the moist jungle. Arstotzka's scoped rifles see some use, more than Moskurg's, because Arstotzkan officers who chose a scoped rifle are well-camouflaged and skilled. The Nosin is naturally well-suited to use as a sniper rifle, but most engagements in the jungle are within range of an unscoped rifle or M3 Sorraia. Arstotzkan troops rely on their rifles, Nosins and F14s, for medium range combat, and when forced into close combat usually have to draw their AS-1909 when they haven't got time to reload their rifle. It is said, "The AS-1909 will fire, but never when you really need it to." Arstotzkan soldiers do prefer the F14 with its large-ish box magazine for this reason. Moskurg's increased production in T2 Breakers shows here, as they push on the roads. A typical T2 fights comparably to a T25 at this range, but they are better supported by infantry, the AS-RPG28 will often detonate prematurely on slatted armor, or be deflected. Nobody gains ground this year. (Moskurg 3/4)
In the mountains, most soldiers are armed with rifles or light machine guns. Officers almost always choose sniper rifles, although a few bring a radio and use it to spread orders from high command. Arstotzkan officers with AS-O30 equipped Nosin Magants are deadly, despite the questionable quality of the scope. They noticeably outperform Moskurg snipers, and can sometimes stop an entire Moskurg squad before their M3 Sorraia gunner or sniper officer (always shoot the silver cape first!) can spot their target and return fire. Moskurg prisoners digging in Arstotzka's salt mines have their hopes of being liberated dashed, as they cease to hear gunfire outside. Arstotzka gains ground (2/4).
In the desert, Arstotzkan soldiers march into the streets of Moskurg's eastern cities. T25's roll down the streets, engaging T2 Breakers in sudden fights around corners, and Moskurg soldiers scramble with Hippos (they're desperate enough, and the Hippo is mobile, though its use causes casualties) through buildings for a vantage point to ambush tanks. Because of the backblast, they are usually fired off of roofs or in front of balcony doorways, which makes them targets for snipers. Fighting down streets and from building to building is fierce for infantry, Arstotzkans benefit from better-handling SMGs here, and they use hand grenades to clear rooms, and often cover their flanks with mines. Moskurg benefits somewhat from their sidearms, the 5-shot revolver and sawed-off shotgun, though these lack ammo capacity. Moskurg officers will often exhaust their main weapon's magazine, exhaust their sidearm, and then draw their sword. In general, automatic weapons are favored over rifles, especially by Moskurg. The MK-47 sees use, as does the M3 Sorraia and AS-1924. Moskurg soldiers still use horses to navigate rubble-filled streets. Forces on both sides are subject to bombing, which targets tanks and soldiers well-emplaced in buildings. Both sides use smoke to make close approaches where enemies have machine guns emplaced, and Arstotzka uses flares to make moves at night in places of their choosing. Artillery fires 24/7, and Moskurg benefits from the range and power of their B2 Destroyer. Arstotzka's AS-MV21 makes a good vehicle for attacking infantry, as it can move quickly to avoid attack from recoilless rifles, but its use is disfavored, as is that of Arstotzka's motorcycles, due to the fact that wheeled vehicles often cannot navigate rubble-laden streets easily. Fighting is intense in the city, but neither side gains ground. (Arstotzka 3/4)
Patent the AS-MC16A. Main benefit over the Cascade is that you can shoulder it without wanting to puke from the smell of the Moskurg worker that assembled it. It's also all-around better.Patent denied, too similar to the Moskurg-manufactured Cascade.
(http://i.imgur.com/fNJgByq.png)
You may now begin designing for 1931. Also, I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure Sheb asked if he could do some Forenia-themed other forum game. My answer is yes, and yes in general: Forenia belongs to Bay 12. In general, I approve of whatever other Arms Race type game people want to do in a different setting, or other type of game in this setting.
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 05:07:28 am
It's happened, it's more than 40,000 characters. I can probably trim it down a lot, but I'll do that later. For now, we're looking at the dawn of three-post turn announcements.
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 05:07:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 05:15:31 am
EDIT:
Mosly our unique radio.
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 05:16:11 am
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 05:19:01 am
Sensei, sorry to pester you again, but is the autocannon the reason our all-aluminium fighter is more expensive in ore than Moskurg's, or did they roll better? Just trying to get a feel for what are the likely cost when designing.They just rolled nice. The six machineguns about equal your two autocannons.
Edit:
Patent EVERYTHING (except the SMG) to stop this shit from happening again.International patent offices are flooded with a wave of heavily censored Arstotzkan military technology documents. You don't hear back from the patent office quickly due to the enormous volume of paper.
EDIT:
Mosly our unique radio.
Post by: Andres on August 17, 2015, 05:39:40 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 05:59:05 am
They just rolled nice. The six machineguns about equal your two autocannons.Our plane has 1 nose-mounted autocannon and 4 machine guns though. Which nicely explains the increased cost.
On a side note, I'm pretty sure that Forenian patents are only granted for stolen designs.
The resources are wrong. Rebels aren't blowing up Moskurg and we're getting Chinese Ore.They've been wrong for ages. It has no ingame effect, where correct resource amounts are used.
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:02:52 am
Post by: Andres on August 17, 2015, 06:04:52 am
It's not about in-game effect. I just want to see the flavour text that comes from having 5 Ore before the opportunity disappears forever.The resources are wrong. Rebels aren't blowing up Moskurg and we're getting Chinese Ore.They've been wrong for ages. It has no ingame effect, where correct resource amounts are used.
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 06:05:41 am
Never mind, I didn't get how the encryption work. Still don't get it actually.
Post by: evilcherry on August 17, 2015, 06:14:15 am
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:16:42 am
there is no retcon of results, but in the next production phase you can order soldiers to do that.
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 06:17:44 am
Sensei, the cypher we both use is a simple substitution one. Since we solve message by measuring the frequencies of letters to break the substitution, running it through the machine three time should not prevent us from decrypting at all. :pThis entirely true, running a simple ciphered message through a simple cipher again is the same as just using a different simple cipher, and the resulting code can be cracked the same way it normally would.
However, Arstotzkan code breakers are actually not terribly clever, or maybe too clever. When a Moskurg soldier decrypts a message with one code card, they usually forget to turn the Tiger's Whispher machine off before going to the second and third. The resulting second and third messages have been interpreted as some kind of super cipher, even though they apparently decrypt to the same thing. This, combined with Moskurg soldiers' penchant for just not following orders in lieu of instinct and bravado, has led to the incorrect assumption that Moskurg is using some new cipher which cannot easily be cracked, and are actually following orders from their cleverly hidden double cipher. At this point, Arstotzkan code breakers open up a bottle of Five Star, and suggest cryptology theories to explain the secret Moskurg code, which get worse and worse as the bottle empties.
Objection to the Unreliability of the Hippo. We can just make sure soldiers dispose of the tubes every 30 shots.This would probably make it more expensive, in effect, due to manufacturing multiple hippos per user. However, much of the damage has been done at this point in that soldiers are afraid to use the thing until you change it. It also still fails in general in bad weather.
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:22:59 am
Post by: Andres on August 17, 2015, 06:25:39 am
However, Arstotzkan code breakers are actually not terribly clever, or maybe too clever. When a Moskurg soldier decrypts a message with one code card, they usually forget to turn the Tiger's Whispher machine off before going to the second and third. The resulting second and third messages have been interpreted as some kind of super cipher, even though they apparently decrypt to the same thing. This, combined with Moskurg soldiers' penchant for just not following orders in lieu of instinct and bravado, has led to the incorrect assumption that Moskurg is using some new cipher which cannot easily be cracked, and are actually following orders from their cleverly hidden double cipher. At this point, Arstotzkan code breakers open up a bottle of Five Star, and suggest cryptology theories to explain the secret Moskurg code, which get worse and worse as the bottle empties.Wait, so Arstotzkan code breakers are trying to crack a super cypher, also developing their own cryptology theories? Hot damn, that's like training with leg weights on! Soon, we will have the absolute best cypher codes in all of Forenia!
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 17, 2015, 06:29:26 am
It really brings across the idea that everyone on that island are somehow stupid, the spy recruitment agency only recruits spies with crippling learning disabilities, Arstotzkan code breakers are... Well, look at the above post, and high command seem to be such massive idiots as to have forced the original protective armor design to have colorful flags sticking out like bull horns.
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 06:32:53 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 17, 2015, 06:34:25 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 17, 2015, 06:35:30 am
I love sensei's explanations for small mistakes.I always think the average intellect of Tropicans are on par with Juanito and Penultimo of Tropico.
It really brings across the idea that everyone on that island are somehow stupid, the spy recruitment agency only recruits spies with crippling learning disabilities, Arstotzkan code breakers are... Well, look at the above post, and high command seem to be such massive idiots as to have forced the original protective armor design to have colorful flags sticking out like bull horns.
... In fact if I were to host this game I'll frame it into a war between Arstotzka and Tropico.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 17, 2015, 06:37:49 am
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 06:41:37 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 17, 2015, 06:45:09 am
We use the AS-1924 now.Oh, sweet, so I can just write that down as obsolete.
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 06:54:21 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 07:11:43 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 17, 2015, 07:14:55 am
IIRC the AS-1924 doesn't have a belt fed variant, implying the non-mag AS-1910 is still used in emplacements. Ironically, this would mean the newer version of the AS-1910, the mag, is obsolete and the older one isn't.Dangit, now I have to change it.
Also, look this over, will you? I want to see if this reads well.
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: evilcherry on August 17, 2015, 07:16:23 am
- How come the breaker coming down an expense tier for one turn not change things on the field?
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 07:20:11 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 17, 2015, 07:28:46 am
The cities aren't great for armor, and in the jungles your advantage for Breaker allowed you to not be pushed back by our superior SMG.That's a mismatch. Are you saying that our soldiers uses the Breaker as an IFV?
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 07:34:41 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 17, 2015, 08:45:08 am
visit moskung thread for detail regarding materials
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 08:51:07 am
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 09:34:55 am
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 10:06:12 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 17, 2015, 10:33:22 am
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 10:40:55 am
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 10:45:02 am
In order to safeguard the lives of civilians, we propose that Moskurg retreat from the cities at the border of the desert.Get bent. You want the city? Come in and take it then, coward!
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 10:49:17 am
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 10:51:15 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 17, 2015, 10:51:49 am
PPE: What he said.
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 10:53:34 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 17, 2015, 10:55:25 am
Post by: Sheb on August 17, 2015, 10:58:20 am
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 11:12:59 am
EDIT: Gib ideas for art plox.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 02:19:43 pm
Gib ideas for art plox.
Aerial battle.
Post by: Baffler on August 17, 2015, 02:49:48 pm
You'd sound more terrifying if you had ever managed to even set a foot on the Taiga.
1920 best year of my life, Arsetotzkan farm animals successfully removed from glorious Moskurg's jungles. The fact that the following offensive into the Taiga was short lived and unsuccessful is wholly irrelevant, I don't know why you even brought it up.
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 03:00:37 pm
Post by: QuakeIV on August 17, 2015, 03:35:11 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 04:11:22 pm
I imagine plastics would increase oil cost, like aluminium increases ore cost.Yes, with advanced stuff (Kevlar* or other aramids EG) probably costing more oil. Things like composite tank armor with a significant rubber component might also trade ore cost for oil cost.
*Yes, I know Kevlar is pretty well out of our time frame.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 04:31:48 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 04:33:01 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 04:34:18 pm
During the production phase, you bicker with each other, and I write the next battle report.We also write up orders, which give us the comfortable illusion of affecting the outcome.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 04:35:09 pm
During the production phase, you bicker with each other, and I write the next battle report.We also write up orders, which give us the comfortable illusion of affecting the outcome.
Ah, so it's just an intermittence sort of thing. Gotcha, thanks!
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:06:11 pm
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty:
The usage of any chemical or biological weapons designed to directly harm humans intentionally is banned
The usage of any pathogens directed towards biological warfare, whatever the form, is banned
The mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners is banned.
All prisoners are to be treated humanely without exception. Injured prisoners are required to be given medical care
Deliberate attacks on civilian targets are banned without exception, and the mistreatment of civilians is strictly banned as well
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 05:07:19 pm
Okay, back onto the war treaty, here's what I have:
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty:
The usage of any chemical or biological weapons designed to directly harm humans intentionally is banned
The usage of any pathogens directed towards biological warfare, whatever the form, is banned
The mistreatment/excessive interrogation of prisoners is banned.
All prisoners are to be treated humanely without exception. Injured prisoners are required to be given medical care
Deliberate attacks on civilian targets are banned without exception, and the mistreatment of civilians is strictly banned as well
Sounds good, unless anyone else wants to add anything?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 05:08:59 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 05:13:24 pm
We really need to add clarification on what is considered a civilian target. Not attacking your cities is not going to happen.
You're still able to attack our cities and stuff, just not kill citizens that are not actually part of any branch of the Moskurg army.
Post by: Andres on August 17, 2015, 05:13:31 pm
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 05:14:59 pm
The usage of any chemical or biological weapons designed to directly harm humans intentionally is bannedYou just banned pretty much every explosive we have, as literally all of them (unless I'm missing something) use chemical reactions. That's right, if that goes, we're stuck with pure AP rounds in everything.
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:16:39 pm
@Andres: It had no provisions for the protection of civilians.
@Kot: As hilarious as that would be, no. It ust bans the sort described here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapon)
Post by: Andres on August 17, 2015, 05:18:55 pm
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- All prisoners must be treated humanely. They must be given at least three meals a day and a cot equivalent or better. It is prohibited to subject prisoners to actions including the usage of drugs, waterboarding, cutting/maiming, and/or any other action that could be classified as inhumane
- The use of immature animals and/or humans (babies, puppies, kittens, etc.) in battle is prohibited
@Andres: It had no provisions for the protection of civilians.But it was also unambiguous entirely. In my opinion, we should sign off on my treaty at minimum and then add to it with civilian stuff.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 05:20:29 pm
Anything non-military. And no, it's not going to stop any attacks on the city (That'd just be counter-productive), but it means you can't shell it indiscriminately or the like though, and essentially means both sides logistics vehicles and such for raw materials are off-limits.Nope.
Blowing up your resource convoy's is fun.
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 05:24:15 pm
Anything non-military. And no, it's not going to stop any attacks on the city (That'd just be counter-productive), but it means you can't shell it indiscriminately or the like though, and essentially means both sides logistics vehicles and such for raw materials are off-limits.Nope.
Blowing up your resource convoy's is fun.
Plus resource gathering and production are legitimate military targets, not just the factories.
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:25:50 pm
@Tryrar: For occupation. You can't bomb them, you can storm it with troops and redirect the output but that's it.
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 17, 2015, 05:27:17 pm
Personally, I think we should ban flying vehicles, so that we're forced to rely on high-tech catapults for transport.
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 05:28:05 pm
I think that the treaty should impose arbitrary and absurd limitations, not sane ones that take after actual treaties. Why should we ban gas weapons—how will that make the game more interesting?
Except that nobody would agree to those :P. Things based on actual trearies are things that we as players would most likely agree to.
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 05:30:58 pm
So, Arstotzka's abstention on the treatment of civilians is because they like killing them? Well...
@Tryrar: For occupation. You can't bomb them, you can storm it with troops and redirect the output but that's it.
Why? The ability to hammer your enemy's economy is a legitimate tactic that no military planner would ever agreee to give up. This of course does mean you can try to do the same to us, so it's fair. Unless there's some reason you want US to not be able to destroy your production? :P
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 05:31:53 pm
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 17, 2015, 05:32:02 pm
THE GREAT MOSKUNG-ARSTOTZKA TREATY OF 19XX
- arstotzka is hereby banned
- mentions of arstotzka are only permitted when referring to pre-treaty conditions
- instances of post-treaty arstotzka are to be removed immediately
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 05:32:24 pm
Also, I propose that we should ban swords and other melee weaponry because that's too brutal.
FUCKING
NEW
POST
NEW
POST
NEW
POST
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:35:46 pm
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 05:37:38 pm
You know that just means we can ratify it right? :PThey will proably don't give a shit if we ask them to let us ratify it, because we're the least-important country in the world.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 17, 2015, 05:38:29 pm
You know that just means we can ratify it right? :PThey will proably don't give a shit if we ask them to let us ratify it, because we're the least-important country in the world.
yes, you are
we'd forget about you if shooting you wasn't so fun
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:38:39 pm
Post by: adwarf on August 17, 2015, 05:56:36 pm
I think that the treaty should impose arbitrary and absurd limitations, not sane ones that take after actual treaties. Why should we ban gas weapons—how will that make the game more interesting?I support the formation of an air vehicle ban treaty.
Personally, I think we should ban flying vehicles, so that we're forced to rely on high-tech catapults for transport.
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 05:59:49 pm
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 06:04:38 pm
Ban imperial measurement system.I think that the treaty should impose arbitrary and absurd limitations, not sane ones that take after actual treaties. Why should we ban gas weapons—how will that make the game more interesting?I support the formation of an air vehicle ban treaty.
Personally, I think we should ban flying vehicles, so that we're forced to rely on high-tech catapults for transport.
Also what the fuck, I didin't submit this post already, what the fuck forum...?
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:11:25 pm
I propose another thing: a ban on interception of enemy communications.
The reason behind it is that being able to decrypt enemy comms is such an advantage that it can't and won't be ignored. Currently we are in a state of being able to send comms that can't be decrypted by enemies. We are even. We can keep it like this for the rest of the war. So that this doesn't become a game of who has the better cypher.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 06:13:00 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 06:14:50 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 06:16:22 pm
Are we still allowed to patch our radios into the enemy network for shit-talking purposes? :PFor the record, there's no patching in and no networks, you just talk on their channel.
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 06:16:31 pm
I support that.
As much fun as a cypher war would be, it would quickly become pretty silly, so yeah. This won't be really realistic(since SigInt is a huge part of military doctrine), but then we won't be blowing actions all the time countering their cypher or creating a new one-unless of course Sensei would like to give us a SigInt slot(maybe used during production phase as something that's actually done during that)
Post by: Kot on August 17, 2015, 06:17:07 pm
so, prisoners and targets are covered elsewhere already. what we want to ban is chemical, biological and radioactive weapons it seems.Realistically speaking, we may not even know what a radioactive weapon is just yet.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 17, 2015, 06:18:08 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 17, 2015, 06:19:00 pm
A sigint slot seems boring. I mean it has 2 options : "Improve cypher, or break enemy cypher"
Which is why I'm not sold on that idea-it was just something to mention.
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:24:37 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 06:27:01 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 17, 2015, 06:28:18 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 06:31:51 pm
This is extremely off topic, but could I get a size comparison of Forenia to something real? I've been imagining it as about the size of Hawaii (Big Island).Stayin' vague. If I give anything close to a number people will start arguing about effective aircraft ranges or something.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 17, 2015, 06:32:40 pm
This is extremely off topic, but could I get a size comparison of Forenia to something real? I've been imagining it as about the size of Hawaii (Big Island).Stayin' vague. If I give anything close to a number people will start arguing about effective aircraft ranges or something.
Heh, I can see where you're coming from. My bad. :P
Also, (sorry for the questions) what did you use to make that map of Forenia?
Post by: andrea on August 17, 2015, 06:36:03 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 06:41:51 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 17, 2015, 07:54:58 pm
Weapons of mass destruction, for example, are probably worth banning, since whoever develops one first wins. On the other hand, banning chemical weapons serves no purpose except to move the game closer to reality—and what's the fun in that? The worst arguments so far have been about how close things are to reality, so I don't see how a realistic treaty would improve things.
No, the treaty should ban overpowered/omnipresent things, so that we have to get creative. For example, it could ban engines, wheeled vehicles, or guns. The last one is probably a bit extreme, but we could do it.
Sensei, will we be able to revise the treaty in the future? Treaties seem like a good way to remove overpowered/unfun stuff.
Post by: Playergamer on August 17, 2015, 08:36:57 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 17, 2015, 09:07:10 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 17, 2015, 09:11:14 pm
Nothing in the treaties against HP ammo? Hmm. I'm not sure if I should add that to a suggestion or not.Why not? Lets throw it on.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 18, 2015, 03:17:24 am
If we actually create some kind of new machine or something, like a digital radio receiver or whatnot, then that would be relevant but the actual creation and decoding of the ciphers could be left "high command".
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2015, 03:27:36 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 18, 2015, 03:46:25 am
Thing is, even without precise dimensions, we should be able to design some pretty long-ranged design if we want to and get some good rolls. Some designs of the 30s had effective bombing range of 1500km.I think the treaty should include something to ban these. Namely, weapons that the operator cannot control whether its ordnance falls on civil or military targets, if operational and structural errors are taken into account.
In other words any delivery method that has a 95% probability circle larger than say 1km should be banned.
I think this should stop superguns or V2s which are honestly unfun.
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2015, 03:50:48 am
Post by: tryrar on August 18, 2015, 03:51:53 am
Why would we sign such a thing?
This.
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2015, 03:53:53 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 18, 2015, 04:00:32 am
Would that be a super gun?
Or was that a typo.
I guess that is out then!
Post by: andrea on August 18, 2015, 04:01:43 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 18, 2015, 04:03:46 am
Post by: andrea on August 18, 2015, 04:04:59 am
Post by: tryrar on August 18, 2015, 04:05:38 am
Okay but we need to ban the use of trained bats that plant explosives.
No need to do that, since that project was hilariously ineffective. No need to waste resources on that :P
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 18, 2015, 04:42:46 am
Okay but we need to ban the use of trained bats that plant explosives.
No need to do that, since that project was hilariously ineffective. No need to waste resources on that :P
Yes, yes, ineffective...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 18, 2015, 05:44:11 am
Post by: Kot on August 18, 2015, 09:43:27 am
Post by: Sensei on August 19, 2015, 05:28:55 am
I once proposed we do an acoustic kitty using tigers, but that wouldn't really work pior to very small radios.I enjoy the picture of anyone trying to stealthily smuggle your current 60 pound battery-and-radio assemblies near a conversation unnoticed.
Post by: tryrar on August 19, 2015, 05:30:01 am
Post by: Kot on August 19, 2015, 09:23:04 am
Well, tigers are quite big, after all. We may just need to remove it's ability to shit by replacing the internals with radio and battery. And with 2-meter long antenna coming out of it's asshole.I once proposed we do an acoustic kitty using tigers, but that wouldn't really work pior to very small radios.I enjoy the picture of anyone trying to stealthily smuggle your current 60 pound battery-and-radio assemblies near a conversation unnoticed.
Post by: andrea on August 20, 2015, 05:22:44 am
Post by: Andres on August 20, 2015, 05:32:53 am
Post by: andrea on August 20, 2015, 05:36:01 am
Although for the most part you could consider it under the 'writing' part as well.
of course, much depends on the underlying system, which Sensei would ( very rightfully) not share.
Post by: evilcherry on August 20, 2015, 05:57:42 am
Well, you can think about this. There are 4 fronts, Air, Jungle, Mountain, Plains. You consider the armaments, and decide that the general balance for the situation is so should be so many pips towards Arstotzka or Moskurg. You roll a dice, or many, and add that to the total, simulating chance. Write the outcome based on the dice. Rinse and repeat.
Post by: Sheb on August 20, 2015, 07:12:14 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 21, 2015, 01:59:56 am
Post by: QuakeIV on August 21, 2015, 03:16:14 am
Slight push. Any chance to have the update in a few hours?
I have you executed by firing squad, that rarely if ever is beneficial to a game in the long term.
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2015, 03:53:24 am
Slight push. Any chance to have the update in a few hours?
I have you executed by firing squad, that rarely if ever is beneficial to a game in the long term.
The old "multiworld madness" RTD lived and thrived on us layers calling for "ROLLS" between turns. But I'll agree that in general it doesn't work, especially when such requests are posted when the GM isn't online to listen :P
Post by: Kashyyk on August 21, 2015, 03:58:50 am
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2015, 04:03:14 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
edit: that picture of rolls actually made me hungry. I need to find the recipe and cook them.
Post by: Sheb on August 21, 2015, 04:17:59 am
Post by: Sensei on August 21, 2015, 05:14:19 am
Tomorrow! Probably.
Post by: Sensei on August 21, 2015, 11:35:05 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 22, 2015, 12:00:10 am
Breaking news: House sitting, laptop still broken. Game to resume on monday.
rip
Post by: Kot on August 22, 2015, 03:13:42 am
Rock falls on Forenia, everyone dies.
Post by: Taricus on August 22, 2015, 03:14:40 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 22, 2015, 03:44:54 am
Post by: Andres on August 22, 2015, 03:54:07 am
Rest of world chokes on glorious Forenian dust particles.Their lungs promptly explode as the Arstotzkan and Moskurgan particles continue their war.
Post by: Kot on August 24, 2015, 02:36:05 am
I claim moral victory.
Post by: Andres on August 24, 2015, 02:40:16 am
Post by: Kot on August 24, 2015, 02:44:20 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 24, 2015, 03:57:44 am
Post by: tryrar on August 24, 2015, 04:07:59 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 24, 2015, 04:09:47 am
Post by: tryrar on August 24, 2015, 04:20:53 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 24, 2015, 04:30:17 am
hhe, true, mine ground to a halt when it seemed everything just came up roses for everyone, and the only way for it to have any drama at all was for me to simply manufacture it. Seriously, landing on a planet with abundant life, and the ability to simply go naked if you wanted? I swear when I run games someone rigs random.org int heir favor.One thing to running a suggestion game is you have to make sure the cast faces problems constantly. If things are going too smoothly, throw a wrench into it.
The duel format, however, means no shortage of drama.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 24, 2015, 06:20:43 am
hhe, true, mine ground to a halt when it seemed everything just came up roses for everyone, and the only way for it to have any drama at all was for me to simply manufacture it. Seriously, landing on a planet with abundant life, and the ability to simply go naked if you wanted? I swear when I run games someone rigs random.org int heir favor.
I said I was sorry. :P
Post by: Kashyyk on August 24, 2015, 11:32:14 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 24, 2015, 11:53:34 am
The duel format, however, means no shortage of drama.Outpost + Alpha Centauri mix to insert additional drama
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 24, 2015, 12:14:09 pm
Hey sensei, if you ever get tired of running Arms Race/it collapses under it's own weight, ever think about running an Outpost (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mission-outpost-3.230800/) game? Should be fun!
Hey, um, I kinda have time to run mine again if a necro would be a good idea. Or a new one if people did not like the way it was going.
Post by: evilcherry on August 24, 2015, 12:40:36 pm
There are several of those stories, actually.Could be done deal.The duel format, however, means no shortage of drama.Outpost + Alpha Centauri mix to insert additional drama
Post by: tryrar on August 24, 2015, 01:35:54 pm
Hey sensei, if you ever get tired of running Arms Race/it collapses under it's own weight, ever think about running an Outpost (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mission-outpost-3.230800/) game? Should be fun!
Hey, um, I kinda have time to run mine again if a necro would be a good idea. Or a new one if people did not like the way it was going.
Eh, probably better to start over. I don't even remember where we were.
Post by: QuakeIV on August 24, 2015, 02:31:50 pm
Post by: andrea on August 24, 2015, 03:08:44 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 24, 2015, 03:29:25 pm
Um. I don't think he said the game is dead guys, fuck sake.They went off the rails and were talking about reviving a different game, not this one...I think.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 25, 2015, 11:28:47 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 25, 2015, 01:22:56 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 25, 2015, 03:29:09 pm
*cough cough* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150662.0)
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 25, 2015, 03:57:16 pm
5/5
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 25, 2015, 04:20:45 pm
let's wait for the game by stealing its userbase and putting it in another game
5/5
chill fam I meant you could play that until Sensei is back
or maybe even play both.
Post by: Elfeater on August 25, 2015, 05:38:21 pm
Post by: andrea on August 25, 2015, 05:51:32 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 25, 2015, 05:53:47 pm
Or play a game much different than this one ran by someone who is not as good as a writer as Sensei and really needs players...
Which one? Link please?
Post by: Elfeater on August 25, 2015, 06:00:16 pm
The threads are a bit bare as the moment, as one side only has two people, while the other has three.
EDIT: Currently it has one player as the final choice as the head noble, but if that ends up not working well later down the line I might go to a democracy
Post by: andrea on August 25, 2015, 06:04:54 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 25, 2015, 06:08:12 pm
it is most problematic because me and my baron seem to have quite different time zones, which means a discussion can last days.Yeah, I kinda came up with this late at night, so that's when I ended up posting it
Post by: Sensei on August 26, 2015, 03:53:49 am
Also, here's an info nugget I dropped in the Arstotzka thread:
A typical soldier has one primary weapon (EG rifle), one sidearm, and whatever equipment seems reasonable (spare ammo, grenades, binoculars and such are all examples of miscellaneous equipment). The AS-MC16 is a primary weapon, using it deprives a soldier of any other rifle. Soldiers who carry machine guns in whole or in parts, the bulky radios currently in use by both nations, and things like that are also deprived of a primary weapon and forced to rely on their sidearm. In close combat, soldiers who have a long rifle or other unsuitable gun (the MC16 is of course suitable for close combat) will use their sidearms, and sometimes have to use their sidearms instead of reloading no matter what their primary weapon is.
1931 Army Status
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 26, 2015, 03:54:05 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 26, 2015, 03:54:43 am
Treaty negations continue to not continue. Though they speak nothing of this to the public, Moskurg high command hopes its engineers will ratify the weaponry portion of the treaty so that the agreement can be signed, and fair treatment of Moskurg prisoners can be assured- Arstotzka has been taking a fair bit of prisoners.
1931 Battle Report
This year, Moskurg finally made a working flamethrower, the Incinerator, a terrorizing short-range weapon which spews burning liquid. Moskurg also researched Jungle Engineering, making their weapons less prone to failure in the mud and humidity. This will help their Hippo a bit in particular, although that weapon still has its own problems. Arstotzka built their first proper bomber, the AS-1931-HAFB, which carries fully two tons of bombs with three turbocharged motors, which means it can keep pace with fighters and has an impressive altitude ceiling. Using their new plane, Arstotzka also ordered the start of a paratrooper program, but soldiers have simple parachutes and carry only sidearms. Arstotzka also fixed their AS-1909, renaming it the AS-SP30. In addition to actually working now, it has a threaded barrel with the option for suppressors, and hollow point ammo.
The war in the air is changed by Arstotzka's introduction of the AS-1931-HAFB, a three-engine bomber, and the largest aircraft in Forenia. It flies high and fast, and though its dorsal turret offers limited protection, it drops two tons of bombs, enough to justify its Very Expensive status. Its turbo charged engines allow it to reach altitudes which are difficult to reach for fighters, despite its size, so when it doesn't stick close to its AS-HF-24 escorts, Wasps and Yellowjackets reach it with a bare minimum of energy. More often, due to its dorsal turret, it stays close to its escorts. Since it isn't dive bombing, M3 Sorraia and M1 Stallion machine guns acting as ground-to-air weapons are not a concern- in fact, Moskurg altogether lacks effective AA. AS-1931-HAFB's thus have a good success rate at reaching their targets, somewhat better than Moskurg Hornets. Then, their large payload makes them a significant threat to artillery, emplacements, and even armored targets which aren't moving quickly. While Arstotzka doesn't have uncontested control of the skies, they drop more bombs than Moskurg when they have the chance.
In the jungle, Moskurg puts their new Incinerator flame throwers to work. It's an effective means of clearing soldiers hiding in brush and bunkers, and even when only one is used for every few squads, it has an effect on Arstotzkan morale. Moskurg also now has a general advantage in terms of weapon reliability: While the hippo remains mostly stagmatized, Rhino Recoilless Rifles rarely fail to fire. Arstotzkan troops benefit in close combat from the new reliable AS-SP30 pistol replacing their AS-1909, which previously jammed leaving Arstotzkan troops high and dry. Moskurg's tanks are now Very Expensive again, and Arstotkza makes pushes on the roads, through Moskurg ambushes now include flamethrowers in addition to recoilless rifles. While bombing is not very effective over the jungle, Arstotzka does benefit from sending some AS-1931-HAFB's to the end of their range, full of paratroopers. Using AS-SP30's with hollow point ammunition, they attack positions like artillery emplacements from the rear, or try to catch tank crews refueling, and generally mess with Moskurg supply. Arstotzka gains ground (2/4)
In the mountains, flamethrowers, pistols and bombers are mostly inapplicable. Arstotzka continues to gain ground with their superior snipers, though most soldiers on both sides are limited in their effective range by the use of iron sights. M3 Sorraias still out-range AS-1924's somewhat. Arstotzka is now again looking down upon Moskurg's mines. (3/4)
The fighting in East Moskurg is the most brutal of the war so far. This will be known as the year that buildings burned. The Incinerator flamethrower is an effective weapon at preventing Arstotzkan advances through indoor areas and alleys, and fulfills a similar role as Arstotzkan grenades in clearing rooms and setting buildings aflame. With reduced Moskurg tank production, Arstotzka has an armored advantage, which is only partly countered by Moskurg recoilless rifles. Arstotzkan RPGs are relatively ineffective against current Moskurg tank armor, and require a good shot from close range. Close range combat is fierce, and favors Moskurg, although Arstotzka benefits from their grenades and their new hollow point rounds, used in MC16s and SP30s. The deciding factor is AS-1931-HAFBs, which drop tonnes of bombs. It drops bombs on buildings, on roads, on Destroyer artillery and Breaker tanks. Occasionally it drops paratroopers where they will be most annoying, although this has a high casualty rate for the poorly-equipped paratroopers behind enemy lines. Arstotzka gains ground (4/4) Next year, the march towards the capitol begins. It will be on the open desert again, for a time.
Agent Sandworm and Agent Promised Crucible meet again. Promised Crucible has snuck into the building where Moskurg Incinerator Flamethrowers are manufactured. He sets about arranging one flamethrower to explode when used, as a test. Agent Sandworm identifies him and steps out of the shadows, grabs a prepared flamethrower, and rushes toward Promised Crucible to blast him at close range. It happens that this was the very one that Promised Crucible had sabotaged a moment ago. The explosion kills both of them, and somehow fails to burn down the factory. After a brief delay, the factory is operational again, and both nations are lacking secret agents.
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 04:20:40 am
Also, are our bombers now capable of hitting Moskurg's capital?
Post by: Sensei on August 26, 2015, 04:42:57 am
Our heavy bomber was actually supposed to be Expensive this turn. It cots 5 Ore and 4 Oil. We naturally have 4 Ore and 2 Oil, making it Very Expensive due to lacking 3 resources. However, the Ore we're getting from the Chinese gives us 5 Ore and 4 Oil and a resource deficit of 2, so it should make the plane Expensive.Hm, noted. It doesn't change the outcome of this turn, conveniently. I'll correct the actual text when I'm less tired, but the moral of the story is still "bomber important, Arstotzka gains ground".
Also, are our bombers now capable of hitting Moskurg's capital?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 05:09:00 am
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 05:15:02 am
Post by: Kot on August 26, 2015, 05:16:13 am
So are we gonna sign that treaty? We do have a bunch of your prisoners here, after all, and signing the treaty means ensuring their safety.Prisoners? What prisoners? It's just salt giants!
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2015, 05:35:08 am
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 06:17:55 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 06:32:15 am
Quote
Nuclear Weapons Progress: 8/10
Thus the question. Is this serious, or do I need to come up with a short treatise on why the idea of a nuclear weapon being developed at this time is utterly implausible?
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 06:37:13 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 26, 2015, 06:41:59 am
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 06:45:02 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 06:50:51 am
QuoteNuclear Weapons Progress: 8/10
Thus the question. Is this serious, or do I need to come up with a short treatise on why the idea of a nuclear weapon being developed at this time is utterly implausible?
I'm also curious about that. I don't remember us getting nuclear weapons tech.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 06:51:43 am
The statement that they're only expensive requires that. Lead bomber sighting only is not accurate enough to hit stuff like that.Our bomber has a bomb sight. It's in it's description.
Quote
-AS-1931-HAFB: A three-engine bomber with a shoulder wing. It is constructed of a geodetic aluminium frame with resin-treated fabric skin. The pilot sits in a cockpit on the front of the plane with a pyramidal canopy, and between the two wings is an AC18 gunner, on top of the plane, with a 360 degree rotation under a trapezoidal canopy. It has an engine in the nose and one slung under each wing, the engines are turbocharged and fuel injected. Despite its size, this enables it to almost keep pace with AS-HF-24s and gives it a high altitude ceiling. These engines burn a lot of fuel, and so the craft is not capable of especially longer range than Arstotzkan fighters. It carries a two-ton payload of bombs, and a bomber with a sight which can be adjusted based on a written table for airspeed and altitude. At full altitude, these bombs are incapable of hitting precise targets, and especially moving targets. The plane also has fixed landing gear. Costs 5 ore, 4 oil.
Standard on all vehicles.
On that note, it doesn't fly high often. Most bombing runs happen with escorts, and thus at lower altitudes. Apparently the autocannon makes a decent enough defense, combined with the resilient structure.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 06:57:19 am
I am kinda wondering how many rolls that one came up to. Looks like 3 fives. I also thought you botched the roll for cheap turbocharging, rendering it never cheap for quite some time.
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 06:59:36 am
I also thought you botched the roll for cheap turbocharging, rendering it never cheap for quite some time.We botched the roll for cheap fuel injection, but we got it the next time we tried. We got cheap turbocharger a while back. It's why our tanks are merely Expensive.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 07:02:58 am
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2015, 07:15:26 am
Hmm, thought it was forbidden to be cheap from that roll, not just try again next time. Still at least plus one for the free optics.
We're getting 5 ore right now due to the china connection, so that only puts us 2 oil short.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 07:25:12 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 26, 2015, 07:45:57 am
It was intended to be ventral, not dorsal.
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 07:54:23 am
Post by: Taricus on August 26, 2015, 08:03:42 am
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 08:06:04 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 08:13:38 am
Post by: Taricus on August 26, 2015, 08:14:05 am
But yeah, three design stages behind, and no way to catch up. Even if we did have a good design, you'd just drown us in more stuff altogether (I have a few choice words about the starting conditions in relation to that, but I'll wait until the end of the game to elaborate on that.)
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 08:17:12 am
But, as I'm said, I'm staying. The Artotzkan army will have to drag me from the work bench if they want me to stop.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 08:20:29 am
Expensive, plus one for optics.
I see. The wording is a bit ambiguous. I interpreted it as having bomb sights as a standard part of the design, not an expensive retrofit.
Post by: evilcherry on August 26, 2015, 08:23:04 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 26, 2015, 08:25:16 am
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 08:27:35 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 08:30:10 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 26, 2015, 09:51:48 am
Actually, when you developed the tank you almost took the plains back. I still don't understand why you didn't put all your efforts there at the time. (When we got the tank destroyer)We did try our best. Then your war hero introduced towed arty warfare and we lose. Its all downhill from there.
Post by: Playergamer on August 26, 2015, 09:52:43 am
Post by: Kot on August 26, 2015, 10:01:11 am
At this point I'm only watching, instead of playing, since it feels useless to try to design weapons when Arstotzka advances on every front anyway.All things considered, that's how you're supposed to turn the tide and win the war. Also, do I smell salt?
I think I'll blame that on dice Gods, Dust Devils, Ice Giants or whatever.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 26, 2015, 10:04:24 am
now you too can feel how it's like to be on the receiving end of salt
truly progressive
Post by: Playergamer on August 26, 2015, 10:04:48 am
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 26, 2015, 10:39:36 am
YOU CAN DO IT! *HLG hides from the police searching for someone who likes hiding and leaves.*
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 10:42:50 am
Post by: Kot on August 26, 2015, 10:54:51 am
/me throws some salt at kotStop being salty. :>
now you too can feel how it's like to be on the receiving end of salt
truly progressive
Post by: LordSlowpoke on August 26, 2015, 11:06:57 am
/me throws more salt
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 11:33:49 am
Expensive, plus one for optics.
I see. The wording is a bit ambiguous. I interpreted it as having bomb sights as a standard part of the design, not an expensive retrofit.
That would reduce the price of about three-quarters of Moskurg's items, along with free radios and optics on all tanks and artillery, if it was true.
To be honest, there were lots of opportunities to win it, but most designs were just random people +1 stuff, or going for single-roll and single use (or zero use) refits and designs. Arstotzka had four or five rolls for a significant majority of every designs, which allows for massive successes, and is a far superior way to play. A 1 doesn't mess the whole design, it's just that you get less bonuses on the resulting item. Especially when a 1 simply means you roll that item into the next bonus attempt next turn.. there's no drawback to going for more things.
In general, I think there could have been guaranteed fives all the way down, and I don't think Moskurg would have had a chance, simply due to ill-concieved decisions and bad orders. Arstotzka had many more players, who actually argued with each other, while coming up with improved designs and additional things to roll for in each. Lastly, many of them would complain bitterly about anything effective on the other side, while ignoring limitations or inconsistancies or inaccuracies in their own designs. When you are the only source talking nothing but positively about your own designs, you can sneak more things through without getting caught.
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2015, 11:35:05 am
nu
/me throws more salt
Honestly, what really sealed it though was when you guys didn't manage to hold the jungle. That would have at least forced us to design things to stop YOUR advance, and you'd have had comparable resources to us.
Edit: ^ oh and this. Really, there were some really odd design decisions on the Moskurg side(a .60 cal machinegun? Really?) while we generally went with things that worked and were cheaper(and thus could be fielded by more troops). I think the only really bad designs we had were our tank(and that was more because we took a gamble and the dice hated us) and our first plane(while it had the firepower, it was really a POS until we fixed it).
Post by: Playergamer on August 26, 2015, 11:41:19 am
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 11:42:47 am
I need to reread the thread. How did we retake the jungle when moskurg conquered it?
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 11:45:41 am
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2015, 11:49:20 am
It was your armoured car. We left that thing be way too effective, for way too long.
You know, the Struunks could have countered it if you guys simply designed an autocannon for it. Either way, it would have been a much more even battle. Gotta say though, I would have liked to see it given our AC18 was an awesome piece of equipment and was what made the armored car so damn effective..
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2015, 11:50:42 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 11:52:52 am
* I've always disliked aluminum being as strong as RHS, but lighter in this game.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 11:54:11 am
You know, the Struunks could have countered it if you guys simply designed an autocannon for it. Either way, it would have been a much more even battle. Gotta say though, I would have liked to see it given our AC18 was an awesome piece of equipment and was what made the armored car so damn effective..
/me remembers to check if you were one of the ones complaining about the ahistorical nature of a recoilless rifle.
You guys got away with a lot of very iffy stuff, in all honesty. I think a lot of it got by because we didn't have people directly on the lookout to call you out on it, like what happened to us.
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 11:55:26 am
I must admit, it does sound a bit odd.
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2015, 11:57:12 am
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 12:01:30 pm
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 12:06:52 pm
Also, your recoilless rifle were quite important, I think.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 12:07:30 pm
Also, your recoilless rifle were quite important, I think.Only in your mind.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 26, 2015, 12:09:22 pm
Post by: Funk on August 26, 2015, 12:10:29 pm
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 12:10:40 pm
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 12:11:09 pm
C'mon people, less salt, more lead and steel.
The word you are looking for is 'whining'.
Anyway, that's enough whining for today, I'll get out of here.
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2015, 12:12:01 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 12:18:08 pm
I'm not upset that Arstotzka was able to do this, but I am upset that it was never mentioned/noticed that Moskurg could.
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 12:26:34 pm
See our tank. it was a big pile of innovation. And we paid for that, since we had to spend a revision to make it useable at all, and a second to make it common.
making a design with less parts, or less innovative parts, means it is more likely to work as intended. Less possible points of failure.
making a design with more parts or more innovative ones means more likely to fail, because of more possible points of failure, but good reward if you get it to work.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 12:28:40 pm
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 12:30:39 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 26, 2015, 12:31:36 pm
we got lucky. The SMG was an incredibly lucky serie of rolls. for each innovation a die was rolled and miraculously none of the rolls failed. Had it happened otherwise, we would have had a nice pile of junk.The tank is certainly too lucky. As for the SMG. Or the RPG.
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 12:43:30 pm
as for the tank? that is where we paid the price for this strategy. We shoved a lot of tech in, then our rolls weren't stellar and so we ended up unable to actually field any. it took us 3 turns ( 1 design, 2 revisions) to actually achieve what we originally wanted to do.
the submachinegun was so lucky that Sensei himself was surprised. To quote, "I was a little surprised: Multiple sixes were rolled. You kinda skipped the "kludgy gun that jams all the time" phase."
it is not a matter of our design being treated unfairly kindly.
It is a matter of us having some rotten luck with dice. many rolls were made on that SMG, in which a single failure could have invalidated the design. And we got several 6 in a row. Big gamble, which succeeded.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 01:16:18 pm
That would reduce the price of about three-quarters of Moskurg's items, along with free radios and optics on all tanks and artillery, if it was true.Expensive, plus one for optics.I see. The wording is a bit ambiguous. I interpreted it as having bomb sights as a standard part of the design, not an expensive retrofit.
Not quite. See, the interpretation I was referring too is that the Scope is a different thing all together than the bomb sight. Different name and functioning, after all. But it is unclear; I agree.
Then again, the GM first made the mistake of describing our bomber as very expensive, and those results were kept, so it didn't matter, I guess.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 26, 2015, 01:27:19 pm
Post by: Iituem on August 26, 2015, 01:31:40 pm
Honestly, I think that the reason moskurg is doing as badly as it is, besides not throwing everything they could think of on a design in hope that most of it turned out OK, is that you guys did not capitalize on your bonuses soon enough. I mean, extra oil for getting your CQC loving troops Into close combat faster would have been a massive issuefor us, as would have you guys getting aircraft slightly sooner.
When did we ever get extra oil?
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 01:33:29 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 26, 2015, 02:41:37 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 26, 2015, 02:53:52 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on August 26, 2015, 03:09:52 pm
The other, the mosquito, was an amazing light bomber and night fighter.
Post by: Baffler on August 26, 2015, 03:24:17 pm
Nevermind, it was the paratroopers. Sneaky Arsetotzkans...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 04:12:25 pm
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 04:34:54 pm
Not quite. See, the interpretation I was referring too is that the Scope is a different thing all together than the bomb sight. Different name and functioning, after all. But it is unclear; I agree.
Then again, the GM first made the mistake of describing our bomber as very expensive, and those results were kept, so it didn't matter, I guess.
That's amazing. A bombsight is more complicated and expensive than a scope, and you don't have cheap optics. But you do have cheap optics, because you say so. :D When the GM said it was Very Expensive, you 'correct' him.
That is the key to Arstotzkan strategy. If you roll bad on a feature, it matters very little, as you can just try again the next turn. If you have five or six features, you can pretty much count on getting a couple of them, and it allows you to get very lucky. If you botch it, you get an okay device anyway, not a pile of junk. There is no drawback to going for more features.. it's simply more features that you can succeed with. If you go for one feature, such as a radio, a bad roll means you get nothing.
That's very good play, in all honesty, playing the game as it is and optimizing for that. It might be a bit less of an obvious choice if you had to roll two dice, say, for each feature, with the first one only allowing for the device to be botched, and the second one counting for implementation.
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 05:04:27 pm
Lastly, many of them would complain bitterly about anything effective on the other side, while ignoring limitations or inconsistancies or inaccuracies in their own designs. When you are the only source talking nothing but positively about your own designs, you can sneak more things through without getting caught.It's not like we were doing this maliciously. We just plain can't see the limitations and inconsistencies of our designs. When we did find these inconsistencies, we tended to argue against them, saying they wouldn't work.
(a .60 cal machinegun? Really?)What was so bad about the Stallion? It had admirable service on all fronts in the war, outdoing our 1910 in urban and Mountain warfare. If they stuck those big guns on their planes instead of the little .30 cal guns, they could've messed us up.
we generally went with things that worked and were cheaper(and thus could be fielded by more troops).Except for that one time where we had an awesomely effective CQC gun that we decided would be worthless if it was common...
No, it was said multiple times that they were useful on all fronts. In the Mountains, they were great at assaulting positions. In the Jungle, they were the only real portable AT weapon for a while and they had decent effectiveness against infantry. In the Desert they didn't get too much use due to their short range, but they still got some kills. It's actually been a lot more useful for Moskurg than our RPG has been useful for us.Also, your recoilless rifle were quite important, I think.Only in your mind.
I've also had another tactic of Arstotzka pointed out to me. Arstotzka would shove a load of new tech into a design (turbos and fuel injection being examples) and thus get several new techs to apply to things in a single design phase.Those new techs ended up making that tank a National Effort. We had to go through two Revisions to cheapen the fuel injection and then another Revision for the turbocharger.
Now that we're airing our dirty laundry, was the Moskurg side ever worried of us making our SMG cheap before they got the design themselves?
Post by: Elfeater on August 26, 2015, 05:07:20 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 26, 2015, 05:09:58 pm
Quote
When the GM said it was Very Expensive, you 'correct' him.
Well duh, he had forgotten to take into account extra resources given to us by Chinese rebels.
Quote
A bombsight is more complicated and expensive than a scope, and you don't have cheap optics
We don't have a cheap scope. Optics strangely, doesn't appear to be a tech, and hence, don't appear to have a cost.
Quote
That is the key to Arstotzkan strategy. If you roll bad on a feature, it matters very little, as you can just try again the next turn. If you have five or six features, you can pretty much count on getting a couple of them, and it allows you to get very lucky. If you botch it, you get an okay device anyway, not a pile of junk. There is no drawback to going for more features.. it's simply more features that you can succeed with. If you go for one feature, such as a radio, a bad roll means you get nothing.
It doesn't always work. Look at our tank, which we couldn't use due to expense of added features.
Post by: Baffler on August 26, 2015, 05:44:08 pm
The game isnt over yet.
Yeah, really.
What I wondered though, is how Moskurg infantry didn't have more of a leg up than they did. The MK-47 is cheap enough to give to everyone, and the assault rifle was historically a pretty big boost. Hell, it completely changed the face of infantry combat. Even with its recoil problems I feel like it didn't have the effect it should have.
Post by: Taricus on August 26, 2015, 05:48:00 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2015, 05:50:06 pm
Also, when did Arstotzka start developing parachutes and equipment to give their soldiers on a jump at all?
We're using the kind of parachutes pilots use, i.e. not very good. We can only use pistols for our troops, and ONLY pistols. Funny thing about that, we only found out that we could only drop pistol equipped people AFTER we revised our pistol :P
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 05:53:44 pm
So we thought: hey, why don't we get soldiers to jump from our new bombers? maybe it works, lets ask our soldiers to do it.
as for equipment, our soldiers only carry their pistols. Because we don't actually have proper gear.
So, basically parachutes were always available to everybody and we don't have any gear to give our soldiers.
I am as surprised as you that we could actually get such a success with this little equipment. I was expecting a few attempts with limited effect, more to test if it was a viable tactic to invest a design/revision on.
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 05:57:24 pm
well, we remembered that our pilots had parachutes, since in a report our fighter ace was said to have used one.Before that, we had a report of Promised Crucible escaping from Sandworm via the use of parachute pants.
Post by: andrea on August 26, 2015, 06:08:21 pm
I do remember a fight between the spies ending with parachutes however.
Post by: Taricus on August 26, 2015, 06:09:19 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 26, 2015, 08:38:03 pm
We did, but our Struunk I is honestly shit, and remained that way. Then they decided that a motorcycle is a better idea.Honestly, I think that the reason moskurg is doing as badly as it is, besides not throwing everything they could think of on a design in hope that most of it turned out OK, is that you guys did not capitalize on your bonuses soon enough. I mean, extra oil for getting your CQC loving troops Into close combat faster would have been a massive issuefor us, as would have you guys getting aircraft slightly sooner.
When did we ever get extra oil?
I think main Moskurg problem is ignoring resource shortage while designing stuff. When you have less ore then your opponent your way is wooden aircrafts, light tanks\open tank destroyers and so on.Wooden aircraft, we did that with our Wasp. Which GM permanently make that shit. Hence the Yellowjacket which the GM doesn't seem to buy into (and he's definitely lawyered to believe in "the bomber always get through" doctrine).
Yes and it still cannot stop Tank steamrollering. We only get a real push in the desert when we got the breaker.Lastly, many of them would complain bitterly about anything effective on the other side, while ignoring limitations or inconsistancies or inaccuracies in their own designs. When you are the only source talking nothing but positively about your own designs, you can sneak more things through without getting caught.It's not like we were doing this maliciously. We just plain can't see the limitations and inconsistencies of our designs. When we did find these inconsistencies, we tended to argue against them, saying they wouldn't work.(a .60 cal machinegun? Really?)What was so bad about the Stallion? It had admirable service on all fronts in the war, outdoing our 1910 in urban and Mountain warfare. If they stuck those big guns on their planes instead of the little .30 cal guns, they could've messed us up.we generally went with things that worked and were cheaper(and thus could be fielded by more troops).Except for that one time where we had an awesomely effective CQC gun that we decided would be worthless if it was common...No, it was said multiple times that they were useful on all fronts. In the Mountains, they were great at assaulting positions. In the Jungle, they were the only real portable AT weapon for a while and they had decent effectiveness against infantry. In the Desert they didn't get too much use due to their short range, but they still got some kills. It's actually been a lot more useful for Moskurg than our RPG has been useful for us.Also, your recoilless rifle were quite important, I think.Only in your mind.
Quote
I've also had another tactic of Arstotzka pointed out to me. Arstotzka would shove a load of new tech into a design (turbos and fuel injection being examples) and thus get several new techs to apply to things in a single design phase.Those new techs ended up making that tank a National Effort. We had to go through two Revisions to cheapen the fuel injection and then another Revision for the turbocharger.
Now that we're airing our dirty laundry, was the Moskurg side ever worried of us making our SMG cheap before they got the design themselves?
Ah, yes. The Recoilless rifle which is subjected to some horrendous lawyering. I still can't see why we can't get something as simple as a peforated tube right after 4 phases. Hell it can even be homemade while a rocket motor is much more advanced science!QuoteWhen the GM said it was Very Expensive, you 'correct' him.
Well duh, he had forgotten to take into account extra resources given to us by Chinese rebels.QuoteA bombsight is more complicated and expensive than a scope, and you don't have cheap optics
We don't have a cheap scope. Optics strangely, doesn't appear to be a tech, and hence, don't appear to have a cost.QuoteThat is the key to Arstotzkan strategy. If you roll bad on a feature, it matters very little, as you can just try again the next turn. If you have five or six features, you can pretty much count on getting a couple of them, and it allows you to get very lucky. If you botch it, you get an okay device anyway, not a pile of junk. There is no drawback to going for more features.. it's simply more features that you can succeed with. If you go for one feature, such as a radio, a bad roll means you get nothing.
It doesn't always work. Look at our tank, which we couldn't use due to expense of added features.
well, we remembered that our pilots had parachutes, since in a report our fighter ace was said to have used one.To be fair GM is a firm air superiority = GG to the other side fan. But then shouldn't Moskurg got air superiority while Arstotzka got the bombers through occasionally?
So we thought: hey, why don't we get soldiers to jump from our new bombers? maybe it works, lets ask our soldiers to do it.
as for equipment, our soldiers only carry their pistols. Because we don't actually have proper gear.
So, basically parachutes were always available to everybody and we don't have any gear to give our soldiers.
I am as surprised as you that we could actually get such a success with this little equipment. I was expecting a few attempts with limited effect, more to test if it was a viable tactic to invest a design/revision on.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 09:05:34 pm
QuoteWhen the GM said it was Very Expensive, you 'correct' him.
Well duh, he had forgotten to take into account extra resources given to us by Chinese rebels.QuoteA bombsight is more complicated and expensive than a scope, and you don't have cheap optics
We don't have a cheap scope. Optics strangely, doesn't appear to be a tech, and hence, don't appear to have a cost.QuoteThat is the key to Arstotzkan strategy. If you roll bad on a feature, it matters very little, as you can just try again the next turn. If you have five or six features, you can pretty much count on getting a couple of them, and it allows you to get very lucky. If you botch it, you get an okay device anyway, not a pile of junk. There is no drawback to going for more features.. it's simply more features that you can succeed with. If you go for one feature, such as a radio, a bad roll means you get nothing.
It doesn't always work. Look at our tank, which we couldn't use due to expense of added features.
Optics is expensive for Moskurg, who put it into play first. If it is free for Arstotzka, that is an oversight. If you don't have it at all, then you shouldn't have the bombsight, much less a free bombsight.
You spent three actions on that tank. Moskurg spent four actions on the radio, and three actions on it's semi-broken fighter. The difference was we only made a couple of rolls for each, and thus ended up with something that was unusable due to a few bad ones. In your case, you made four or five, and thus had a useful tank after only a few rolls.
And as for the RR, thanks to certain decisions, our soldiers had literally zero man-portable explosives. Filling that gap, with anything, no matter how bad, was of some use. It couldn't shoot fast or accurately, required to be set up before firing, misfired often, and couldn't penetrate medium armor except under ideal circumstances. It was only a minimally useful weapon.
As for the bomber getting through, well, without radar, I wouldn't expect otherwise, in all honesty.
The MK-47 doesn't work because we rolled crap on one of maybe two rolls, and were creating a somewhat too-advanced weapon. If we had a bunch of people looking at early battle rifles and making designs based on them, with examples, and you know, didn't name it after a year two decades ahead, it might have had a better chance.
One last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..
Post by: Andres on August 26, 2015, 11:57:09 pm
One last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..We've had the propellant ever since we designed the mortar, the rocket itself was extremely simple, and the projectile was basically a grenade with fins. The only new thing we added was the rocket engine.
Arstotzka offers a peace treaty to Moskurg where Moskurg unconditionally surrenders and Arstotzka wins the war.
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 12:17:37 am
One last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..We've had the propellant ever since we designed the mortar, the rocket itself was extremely simple, and the projectile was basically a grenade with fins. The only new thing we added was the rocket engine.
Umm.. mortars aren't rockets, and don't use rocket propellants, solid, liquid, or otherwise. If the projectile is a grenade with fins, that would be ineffectual against armor, and certainly require multiple hits to knock it out, even without slatted armor. As it is far more effective than a single grenade, the bomb is not a simple grenade.
Even if it was such, you could still screw up the fuse, for instance.
Everything is simple if you present it as such, and nobody objects to it. If you were to design a jet engine, for instance, and seperate it into parts such as the turbines first, you would have many, many more chances to screw it up and fail it. If you just present it as a 'jet engine', you get one roll that actually matters. Then make all the secondary rolls for bonus effects or abilities, so that you get a success even if you fail. That's what your RPG is, it's taking a dozen important items and compounding them into one roll, so you don't need a dozen successes to get a good item, only one.
If you do things like that, it's ultimately subjective how many steps there are, and if you have a team ready to pounce if the opposition does anything dodgy, and the other team that doesn't, you will win.
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 12:28:57 am
Also a Rocket motor is definitely more complicated than a perforated tube.One last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..We've had the propellant ever since we designed the mortar, the rocket itself was extremely simple, and the projectile was basically a grenade with fins. The only new thing we added was the rocket engine.
Umm.. mortars aren't rockets, and don't use rocket propellants, solid, liquid, or otherwise. If the projectile is a grenade with fins, that would be ineffectual against armor, and certainly require multiple hits to knock it out, even without slatted armor. As it is far more effective than a single grenade, the bomb is not a simple grenade.
Even if it was such, you could still screw up the fuse, for instance.
Everything is simple if you present it as such, and nobody objects to it. If you were to design a jet engine, for instance, and seperate it into parts such as the turbines first, you would have many, many more chances to screw it up and fail it. If you just present it as a 'jet engine', you get one roll that actually matters. Then make all the secondary rolls for bonus effects or abilities, so that you get a success even if you fail. That's what your RPG is, it's taking a dozen important items and compounding them into one roll, so you don't need a dozen successes to get a good item, only one.
If you do things like that, it's ultimately subjective how many steps there are, and if you have a team ready to pounce if the opposition does anything dodgy, and the other team that doesn't, you will win.
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 12:30:49 am
Also a Rocket motor is definitely more complicated than a perforated tube.
It's more than that, really. The only thing the mortar helps with is designing the launcher. It doesn't do one damn thing for the engine or the charge or the fuel. It would help with the base of the weapon or the tube the rockets fit into.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 02:01:51 am
I think main Moskurg problem is ignoring resource shortage while designing stuff. When you have less ore then your opponent your way is wooden aircrafts, light tanks\open tank destroyers and so on.Wooden aircraft, we did that with our Wasp. Which GM permanently make that shit. Hence the Yellowjacket which the GM doesn't seem to buy into (and he's definitely lawyered to believe in "the bomber always get through" doctrine).
Actually, not really. The bomber was supposed to fly higher than your crafts, but it turns out it can feasibly barrel through enemies. Neither planned nor advocated for. But in any case, "the bomber always gets through" doctrine firmly applies in this situation, with you having no means to detect bombers, and the bomber being quite fast.
That being said, I can't remember you, or anyone, complaining about said fact when you had the only bomber.
Quote
Yes and it still cannot stop Tank steamrollering. We only get a real push in the desert when we got the breaker.What did you expect, an infrantry weapon to completely eliminate tanks, in a wide open battlefield that greatly benefits the latter?
Quote
Ah, yes. The Recoilless rifle which is subjected to some horrendous lawyering. I still can't see why we can't get something as simple as a peforated tube right after 4 phases. Hell it can even be homemade while a rocket motor is much more advanced science!
It actually wasn't. The GM didn't reduce the performance of the RR in either conflict. I mean, in the second it almost got buffed. The problem is you're expecting a design to do more than it can, so no further design actions will really improve it.
Besides, you act like our RPG is some miracle weapon. The thing just plain doesn't work. It's accurate to 100 meters, and the warhead doesn't work half the time even if it wasn't negated by your armor.
Quote
To be fair GM is a firm air superiority = GG to the other side fan. But then shouldn't Moskurg got air superiority while Arstotzka got the bombers through occasionally?I haven't noticed air support being that effective. I mean, we had air superiority for ages, didn't do much.
Optics is expensive for Moskurg, who put it into play first. If it is free for Arstotzka, that is an oversight. If you don't have it at all, then you shouldn't have the bombsight, much less a free bombsight.Optics does not appear to be a technology, neither for Arztotska nor Moskurg. Besides a bombsight is a drastically different thing than a scope, so it is perfectly possible to design one that works while still having crappy scopes.
Quote
You spent three actions on that tank. Moskurg spent four actions on the radio, and three actions on it's semi-broken fighter. The difference was we only made a couple of rolls for each, and thus ended up with something that was unusable due to a few bad ones. In your case, you made four or five, and thus had a useful tank after only a few rolls.
Not actually what happened. The two revisions were both single "fix this one thing" actions. It's just that we happened to succeed, and you happened to fail.
And we stole your radio, just like you stole our tank.
Quote
One last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..Strangely enough, it wasn't our first rocket. It's something that puzzled me when it was first designed, but our mortar is not a mortar. It's actually a rocket.
Quote
This is a light mortar, consisting of a simple tube mounted on a tripod, and mortar shells which are dropped into the tube and fire off when they hit the bottom. The shells themselves are the more important part of the weapon. They are sort of like rocket-propelled grenades, consisting of a metal shell around some explosive, and a primer and propellant at the back. No longer suffers from horrible jamming.
The warheads were developed seperately as part of the grenade project (which backfired quite a bit, since apparently an RPG is more complex than a rocket + grenade ). And the end result wasn't very spectacular.
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 02:11:07 am
Also biased dice and GMs, eh?
Post by: Sensei on August 27, 2015, 03:05:53 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 03:07:14 am
Optics is expensive for Moskurg, who put it into play first. If it is free for Arstotzka, that is an oversight. If you don't have it at all, then you shouldn't have the bombsight, much less a free bombsight.Optics does not appear to be a technology, neither for Arztotska nor Moskurg. Besides a bombsight is a drastically different thing than a scope, so it is perfectly possible to design one that works while still having crappy scopes.
If that were true, Moskurg tanks, artillery and aircraft would all be equipped with them. It isn't, therefore they aren't. If you declare optics to be free, all Moskurg's stuff should have it free as well. They don't, therefore it isn't, therefore you're wrong.
Quote
QuoteYou spent three actions on that tank. Moskurg spent four actions on the radio, and three actions on it's semi-broken fighter. The difference was we only made a couple of rolls for each, and thus ended up with something that was unusable due to a few bad ones. In your case, you made four or five, and thus had a useful tank after only a few rolls.
Not actually what happened. The two revisions were both single "fix this one thing" actions. It's just that we happened to succeed, and you happened to fail.
Not quite what I was getting at. What happened was you put your tank roll for.. new tank, new cannon, new engine, new engine tech, new engine tech. You then failed one or two of the last roll, getting you the new engine tech despite failing the roll for it, because as an 'option', a failure means you get it unreliably but still get it. That would then make one design phase act for three (or more) design phases, almost regardless of the individual success or failure.
Quote
And we stole your radio, just like you stole our tank.
What was actually stole was (fuel injection {expensive}). IOW, one-quarter of one design phase.
Quote
QuoteOne last thing, it was interesting that you get one roll for the rocket projectile, instead of a roll for the rocket engine, a roll for the propellant, and a roll for the rocket itself, being your first rocket..Strangely enough, it wasn't our first rocket. It's something that puzzled me when it was first designed, but our mortar is not a mortar. It's actually a rocket.QuoteThis is a light mortar, consisting of a simple tube mounted on a tripod, and mortar shells which are dropped into the tube and fire off when they hit the bottom. The shells themselves are the more important part of the weapon. They are sort of like rocket-propelled grenades, consisting of a metal shell around some explosive, and a primer and propellant at the back. No longer suffers from horrible jamming.
The warheads were developed seperately as part of the grenade project (which backfired quite a bit, since apparently an RPG is more complex than a rocket + grenade ). And the end result wasn't very spectacular.
That's interesting. Mortar shells are very, very much not rocket-propelled grenades; Sensai was absolutely right to treat them differently. Describing them as 'like' rocket-propelled grenades, and then using that description to justify them being actual rockets, without, you know, actually having to make actual rockets is just the sort of thing that cheeses me off. That's another design phase doing the work of three or four of them, or at least intended to do so. The use of primer and propellant are straight off wikipedia, and it's not mentioned that the propellant in mortar shells is a deflagrating propellant like cordite or gunpowder.. which is very much not a rocket propellant.
At the end of the day, a mortar isn't a rocket, and if it was, it wouldn't be any good as a mortar, due to the massively less predictable range and trajectory of a rocket as opposed to a mortar shell.
Post by: andrea on August 27, 2015, 03:20:26 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 03:22:53 am
If that were true, Moskurg tanks, artillery and aircraft would all be equipped with them. It isn't, therefore they aren't. If you declare optics to be free, all Moskurg's stuff should have it free as well. They don't, therefore it isn't, therefore you're wrong.
Not really. You didn't include sights of any kind in the design of those vessels. Anyway, as has been confirmed by the GM now : Sights and scopes are different, and the sight is included in the design.
Quote
Not quite what I was getting at. What happened was you put your tank roll for.. new tank, new cannon, new engine, new engine tech, new engine tech. You then failed one or two of the last roll, getting you the new engine tech despite failing the roll for it, because as an 'option', a failure means you get it unreliably but still get it. That would then make one design phase act for three (or more) design phases, almost regardless of the individual success or failure.
Not quite. What the design included as new was :
New Tank, New cannon, new engine tech. The other engine tech was already developed for our planes.
And compare and contrast with your tank which was :
New Tank, New Cannon, New cannon tech
Quote
Nope, you got the improved fuel injection tech, and the rest of the tank as well.QuoteAnd we stole your radio, just like you stole our tank.What was actually stole was (fuel injection {expensive}). IOW, one-quarter of one design phase.
Quote
That's interesting. Mortar shells are very, very much not rocket-propelled grenades; Sensai was absolutely right to treat them differently. Describing them as 'like' rocket-propelled grenades, and then using that description to justify them being actual rockets, without, you know, actually having to make actual rockets is just the sort of thing that cheeses me off. That's another design phase doing the work of three or four of them, or at least intended to do so. The use of primer and propellant are straight off wikipedia, and it's not mentioned that the propellant in mortar shells is a deflagrating propellant like cordite or gunpowder.. which is very much not a rocket propellant.
At the end of the day, a mortar isn't a rocket, and if it was, it wouldn't be any good as a mortar, due to the massively less predictable range and trajectory of a rocket as opposed to a mortar shell.
That is the GM's description, not ours. There was no intention of our side to make it a rocket. The design request was this :
Quote
Tube mortar that can be carried and served by two men. A simple tube with a bipod and a plate at the base (to absord recoil), the AS-1911 is fired by dropping the bomb, fitted before firing with an impact-sensitive primer- into the tube.
That being said, I don't see why a rocket should take 3 or 4 design phases. I mean, we didn't need to design improved gun powder to make our guns work, or improved alloy's, or improved explosives.
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 03:24:54 am
I feel the need to clarify that I don't think Moskurg has been drastically affected by retroactive rules changes. Indeed, while things are looking pretty grim now, they came very close to putting Arstotzka on the defensive a few times, and there's even still a chance they could push back. Paratroopers were not a large factor in the proceedings of the 1931 battle, what was actually a bigger factor was Moskurg's expense credit on tanks expiring. Arstotzka's bomber sights do not have lenses, but it's a lot better than just aiming from the pilot's point of view as done in Hornets and AS-DBs. I see there's a lot of debate on what constitutes a discreet technology too: I want to say that regardless of how designs are phrased, I do my best to judge when an item involves one or more new technologies and apply it fairly to both factions.
Ahh, so the bonus is due to a seperate bombardier, then. That makes more sense. It's still extremely inaccurate, all the same. Level bombing is just not precise by any sense of the word.
Anyway, I'm complaining about this to make some things clear:
1. Why Moskurg is losing. Arstotzka did not magically make their design phases more effective, it was part of a consistant strategy to pile as much effectiveness in each turn as possible. They are winning because they are playing the game far, far better. Another thing I haven't mentioned much is their near-complete lack of duplicating previous efforts. If you can add a +2 to something while removing an already existing +1, Moskurg would do it. Arstotzka would instead make a +2 that would stack with the already existing +1. Take a look at the three Moskurgian machine guns, for instance.
2. Arstotzka has gotten away with plenty of dodgy stuff, for all the heavy complaining about anything which Moskurg fields that's even slightly effective. I'm not going to call it 'salt', or any other invented modern term to avoid describing what it is.. being critical of what you and your opponent fields is a normal method of determining what is the best option, or what is actually true; That is the basics of how science works.. you try to disprove theories as hard as possible, and the right one is the one left standing. Arstotzka did that, and Moskurg didn't.
3. Sensai has been remarkably fair, although I don't think Moskurg ever had a chance from the beginning due to player mismatch. Team Moskurg has been shooting themselves in the foot extensively throughout the game. I do think that Arstotzka has gotten away with much more, but that's a result of fielding much more due to packed design phases. If a failure on an addon cannot make the design fail, then there is no reason to not pack them in there, and that is what was done.
One last bit, your automatic cannon is ridiculous and in all honesty, is the kind of thing that should be failing an immense number of times. It was quite common for automatic aircraft cannon to jam on many, if not most, sorties, jamming perhaps for every fifty or so rounds fired, and taking quite some time to repair and refeed the cannon again. And those were the successful designs. That would make it dreadfully ineffective at infantry or anti-infantry use, as if you have to spend ten minutes fixing the cannon for every ten seconds of firing, it simply wouldn't work. You cannot suppress someone with a cannon that doesn't fire.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 03:34:35 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 03:35:53 am
Not really. You didn't include sights of any kind in the design of those vessels. Anyway, as has been confirmed by the GM now : Sights and scopes are different, and the sight is included in the design.
/me notes that sights are, indeed, now free.
Quote
Not quite. What the design included as new was :
New Tank, New cannon, new engine tech. The other engine tech was already developed for our planes.
And compare and contrast with your tank which was :
New Tank, New Cannon, New cannon tech
I would like you to tell me what new cannon tech was included in our tanks cannon that wasn't included in yours, which was basically 'same as Moskurg's, but slightly bigger.' If you mean the turret, there was turrets on the old tank, and we had electrical experiments from the endless parades of radio failures.
Quote
QuoteNope, you got the improved fuel injection tech, and the rest of the tank as well.QuoteAnd we stole your radio, just like you stole our tank.What was actually stole was (fuel injection {expensive}). IOW, one-quarter of one design phase.
/me notes that Moskurg's new plane should be Expensive, and really, really should have dominated the air when it was designed, instead of flipping a slight disadvantage into even.
If we recieved the whole tank, that also raises the question as to why we didn't field some of the Arstotzkan tanks along with our own.
Quote
That's interesting. Mortar shells are very, very much not rocket-propelled grenades; Sensai was absolutely right to treat them differently. Describing them as 'like' rocket-propelled grenades, and then using that description to justify them being actual rockets, without, you know, actually having to make actual rockets is just the sort of thing that cheeses me off. That's another design phase doing the work of three or four of them, or at least intended to do so. The use of primer and propellant are straight off wikipedia, and it's not mentioned that the propellant in mortar shells is a deflagrating propellant like cordite or gunpowder.. which is very much not a rocket propellant.
At the end of the day, a mortar isn't a rocket, and if it was, it wouldn't be any good as a mortar, due to the massively less predictable range and trajectory of a rocket as opposed to a mortar shell.
Quote
That is the GM's description, not ours. There was no intention of our side to make it a rocket. The design request was this :QuoteTube mortar that can be carried and served by two men. A simple tube with a bipod and a plate at the base (to absord recoil), the AS-1911 is fired by dropping the bomb, fitted before firing with an impact-sensitive primer- into the tube.
That being said, I don't see why a rocket should take 3 or 4 design phases. I mean, we didn't need to design improved gun powder to make our guns work, or improved alloy's, or improved explosives.
You did need to research improved alloys and explosives at several points in the game. Rocket propellants should be on the list. If you don't think rockets are hard, there is a great book you should read called "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants."
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 03:38:17 am
I found nothing the indicate that tendency to jam anywhere.
I know. I'm talking about the real world here, where automatic cannons, even very good ones, jammed an awful lot around then. (and, to a lesser extent, machine guns and automatic rifles.)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 03:49:02 am
/me notes that sights are, indeed, now free.Not free, a designable feature. Don't complain to me when you roll several 1's in a row and end up with a gold plated tank.
Quote
I would like you to tell me what new cannon tech was included in our tanks cannon that wasn't included in yours, which was basically 'same as Moskurg's, but slightly bigger.' If you mean the turret, there was turrets on the old tank, and we had electrical experiments from the endless parades of radio failures.
It has a muzzle brake. Which we later had to include on our tank destroyer, so our tank doesn't have it.
Quote
/me notes that Moskurg's new plane should be Expensive, and really, really should have dominated the air when it was designed, instead of flipping a slight disadvantage into even.Your plane is, and has always been merely expensive, but so is ours.
Engine Refinements: Your engineers finally manage to perfect a fuel-recycling, constant-flow fuel injection system. This offers increased power, mostly at full throttle, making it suitable for planes and it will help with the top speed of tanks. Most importantly, it's not Expensive this time. The T-25 is ready to be deployed with this system, and its existing turbo.
There you go! Obviously the biggest benefit is that your HF-24's and T-25's both go down in price.
Quote
You did need to research improved alloys and explosives at several points in the game. Rocket propellants should be on the list. If you don't think rockets are hard, there is a great book you should read called "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants."I read that book. We're not designing ICBM's.
And we didn't need to research improved alloy's. The only 2 examples where the mortar, where we got improved propellants, and the planes, where we got ICBM's. Both included in the design.
Post by: Sheb on August 27, 2015, 03:50:46 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 03:53:03 am
Again, for all the discussions, Sensei never nerfed a design after complains. As you said, we've played better, stacking bonuses (just look at our SMG revision vs yours). But it's not too late to turn the tide. Go forth and design!
It does not matter what you design if random passerbyers vote for flamethrowers. Victory under those conditions is impossible.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 03:59:12 am
Again, for all the discussions, Sensei never nerfed a design after complains. As you said, we've played better, stacking bonuses (just look at our SMG revision vs yours). But it's not too late to turn the tide. Go forth and design!
It does not matter what you design if random passerbyers vote for flamethrowers. Victory under those conditions is impossible.
Don't worry. Any Arztotskan tactical coherence has disintegrated over the panic of joke in your resource spoiler. At this point, I fear we might do nothing at all this turn.
Post by: Sheb on August 27, 2015, 04:08:43 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 04:17:06 am
Aye, that's what I said, free./me notes that sights are, indeed, now free.Not free, a designable feature. Don't complain to me when you roll several 1's in a row and end up with a gold plated tank.
Quote
It has a muzzle brake. Which we later had to include on our tank destroyer, so our tank doesn't have it.
/me notes that that muzzle brake provides zero benefits to anything, as our tank is outranged in the open.
Quote
Your plane is, and has always been merely expensive, but so is ours.
/me wonders why the 60-40 air war went to 50-50 when it was introduced, then.
Quote
The book isn't about designing ICBMs. It's about rocket propellants.QuoteYou did need to research improved alloys and explosives at several points in the game. Rocket propellants should be on the list. If you don't think rockets are hard, there is a great book you should read called "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants."I read that book. We're not designing ICBM's.
Post by: Aseaheru on August 27, 2015, 04:22:20 am
One last bit, your automatic cannon is ridiculous and in all honesty, is the kind of thing that should be failing an immense number of times. It was quite common for automatic aircraft cannon to jam on many, if not most, sorties, jamming perhaps for every fifty or so rounds fired, and taking quite some time to repair and refeed the cannon again. And those were the successful designs. That would make it dreadfully ineffective at infantry or anti-infantry use, as if you have to spend ten minutes fixing the cannon for every ten seconds of firing, it simply wouldn't work. You cannot suppress someone with a cannon that doesn't fire.
The secret is short bursts. Long, sustained fire can jam almost everything.
Well, except possibly the various Maxims, but they where designed for sustained fire.
--ninja edit--
It's about liquid propellants, mostly. We use solid fuel. Like gunpowder.
As for the muzzlebrake, I direct you to the suspension system we spent, what, two actions on? That doesn't do too much either.
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 04:29:35 am
Hey, if you can't convince your players to vote for good design, it's your issue.No. Its that somehow Moskurg is less GM-savvy and have to second guess GM's intentions.
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 04:30:49 am
The secret is short bursts. Long, sustained fire can jam almost everything.
Well, except possibly the various Maxims, but they where designed for sustained fire.
Short burst can jam too, it's just less likely. The larger size also makes it much harder and longer to clear jams. It also makes it much hotter and require a more robust cooling system. It's a pretty absurd weapon, even if it isn't really impossible.
It also should be, well, bigger than it is, and being inaccurate due to recoil effects on your APCs. 20mm autocannon are big mothers.
Quote
It's about liquid propellants, mostly. We use solid fuel. Like gunpowder.
As for the muzzlebrake, I direct you to the suspension system we spent, what, two actions on? That doesn't do too much either.
There's a very significant difference between deflagrating propellants and solid fuel rockets. You don't need an engine for the gunpowder, you don't need to worry about fuel flow, you don't need to worry about fuel stability, you only need to worry minimally about packaging.. some of them are issues to some degrees, but everything is ten times easier when you don't need it to actually explode continually. The two are not 'like' each other, not one bit.
I'm not really worried about the muzzlebrake. I'm miffed by being told that Moskurg's tank cannon was specially good when Arstotzka's very next turn involved designing the same gun, but bigger. It's just hypocritical.
Oh, and evilcherry, it's also because if someone jumps out and says 'flamethrower weapons suck', people still vote for them anyway.
Post by: andrea on August 27, 2015, 04:40:23 am
and once again, we explicitly had solid fuels in our public tech list, and we had a report on civilian life describing solid fuel rocketry as well known in our society. nif it wasn't for that, we wouldn't even have tried.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 27, 2015, 04:42:49 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 27, 2015, 04:48:01 am
As for guns, may I say that there are tons of nine millimeter pistols out there. Do you expect them to be identical?
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 04:50:15 am
Still though, having the tech explicitly makes the difference. It's a hell of a tech to have for free, though; I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better one.
Post by: Sensei on August 27, 2015, 04:52:10 am
Post by: Taricus on August 27, 2015, 04:53:19 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 04:53:43 am
FWIW, I'm looking at a solid propellant rocket motor on my desk right now. It has the benefit of modern chemistry, sure, but it's a bunch of white paste/powder packed into a cardboard tube. It's less mechanically complex than a roll of coins.
Neat. What's in it?
If you don't know, I'd expect with it being civilian-available and a white powder, that it's probably an ammonium chlorate oxidizer mixed with something else. Very reasonable for low-velocity rockets. That kind of thing is common in cruise missiles, for instance.
Or just straight ammonium chlorate. That's not really a rocket, but good enough for fireworks.
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 05:21:16 am
As for bad weapons, I think all of us are guilty of that at one point or another. Sadly, some people don't even want to give reasons, only +1s.
Oh, and evilcherry, it's also because if someone jumps out and says 'flamethrower weapons suck', people still vote for them anyway.
Not necessarily. Two of the better aircraft of ww2 where wooden. The German one, which never got out of being a prototype, was a jet fighter with stealth, for hevensakes. Also it was a flying wing.And yet the game don't recognize that. It also looks like that no matter how we design things, those designed later will have automatic advantage. This also explains why the Model 4 Yellowjacket won't win the skies as it should.
The other, the mosquito, was an amazing light bomber and night fighter.
Post by: Andres on August 27, 2015, 05:37:11 am
This also explains why the Model 4 Yellowjacket won't win the skies as it should.I think that has more to do with our much larger advantage in ground-based AA.
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 05:41:47 am
You don't have any ground based AA. You are basically defenseless against Model 3s strafing with Stallion.This also explains why the Model 4 Yellowjacket won't win the skies as it should.I think that has more to do with our much larger advantage in ground-based AA.
I mean, we should be pinning back your soft targets, while your bombers either have to fly low (and face the Yellowjacket diving on it from outside turret angle) or high (with the yellowjacket killing it without opposition from below). Moskurg should rule the skies, while the lucky Arstotzkan bomber will go through once in a while.
Although GM doesn't think like this.
Post by: Taricus on August 27, 2015, 05:42:17 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 27, 2015, 05:49:59 am
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 05:53:14 am
I was also under the impression our Yellowjackets were designed to have a high altitude ceiling anyway. This'd give it an even greater bonus in dogfighting, and mean it'll be able strike Arstotzkan bombers when they don't have an escort. At the same time, you'd think our 2 year old interceptor would be better than an 8 year old re-purprosed dive bomber.Nope, no. It doesn't work this way. IIRC, your Yellowjackets don't have turbochargers, so you will never be able to catch something that has 3 turbocharged engines.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 27, 2015, 05:54:58 am
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 06:03:05 am
I'm not saying they can beat them in a a straight chase, but they should be able to intercept when at an altitude above your fighter's ceiling.Except they won't be even able to reach that altitude with any reasonable speed (or even at all). Check with a flight sim (Il2?) that has Airacobra. It's known for not having a turbocharger (which is sole reason they weren't adopted in US Army) which makes it utterly useless for high-alt.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 06:04:00 am
We have flak, actually. Our artillery can fire upwards and is equiped with timed fragmentation shells.You don't have any ground based AA. You are basically defenseless against Model 3s strafing with Stallion.This also explains why the Model 4 Yellowjacket won't win the skies as it should.I think that has more to do with our much larger advantage in ground-based AA.
Although GM doesn't think like this.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 27, 2015, 06:05:22 am
Except they won't be even able to reach that altitude with any reasonable speed (or even at all). Check with a flight sim (Il2?) that has Airacobra. It's known for not having a turbocharger (which is sole reason they weren't adopted in US Army) which makes it utterly useless for high-alt.Except we explicitly said in our design that we wanted a higher altitude ceiling.
Post by: Taricus on August 27, 2015, 06:05:41 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 06:12:53 am
And we said we wanted an even higher one.Except they won't be even able to reach that altitude with any reasonable speed (or even at all). Check with a flight sim (Il2?) that has Airacobra. It's known for not having a turbocharger (which is sole reason they weren't adopted in US Army) which makes it utterly useless for high-alt.Except we explicitly said in our design that we wanted a higher altitude ceiling.
Doesn't really matter though, as the bomber prefers flying under escort.
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 06:13:33 am
Except you have it, but due to lack of turbochargers you still don't have shit on anything that does (maybe except our fighters, since they have no closed cockpit). It's pretty simple, really, turbochargers = high alt, no turbochargers = ground hugging.Except they won't be even able to reach that altitude with any reasonable speed (or even at all). Check with a flight sim (Il2?) that has Airacobra. It's known for not having a turbocharger (which is sole reason they weren't adopted in US Army) which makes it utterly useless for high-alt.Except we explicitly said in our design that we wanted a higher altitude ceiling.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 06:18:56 am
However, it is armed solely with small caliber guns, and IIRC, doesn't appear to have any special ammunition but armor piercing rounds.
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 06:28:47 am
Their design is faster, more maneuverable and can fly higher than our fighter.I am not saying our fighter flies higher, as it lacks enclosed cabin and is generally outdated as shit, but they proably can't even reach half the maximum altitude of our bomber.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 27, 2015, 06:31:54 am
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 06:51:32 am
Their design is faster, more maneuverable and can fly higher than our fighter.I am not saying our fighter flies higher, as it lacks enclosed cabin and is generally outdated as shit, but they proably can't even reach half the maximum altitude of our bomber.
The thing is, it didn't even win the skies before the bomber existed. New fighter that outclasses opponents fighters with equal numbers? Air-to-air back to even.
Post by: Andres on August 27, 2015, 07:11:35 am
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 27, 2015, 07:15:12 am
Christ this argument is off-putting.BIG +1
It is only the game with a random chance and GM's subjectivism. Focus on the great story not on "winnining"
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 07:16:17 am
That is both conjecture and exaggeration. Even though your bomber has a higher altitude, it only has a dorsal gun (I assume it was meant to be ventral?) we can just fly underneath it and shoot up.Sure. The problem is that even if your plane is theoretically capable (as Airacobra was) of getting to the same alttitude as our bomber, it will simply be unable to catch up with it. And flying underneath and shooting something requires you to raise your nose, which will slow it down even more (of course, that is implying it will be able to get to that level and close enough, firing from few km away isin't something that's practically possible).
Hey, it's not like it's Arstotzkans who suddenly said they will stop playing because Moskurg is winning.Christ this argument is off-putting.BIG +1
It is only the game with a random chance and GM's subjectivism. Focus on the great story not on "winnining"
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 07:20:32 am
This is not a good recipe for story. Rather its a recipe for salt production.
Also aren't superchargers used in aircraft engines instead of turbos? You tune the supercharger for a particular range of RPM, at lower mechanical loss.
The Dive fighter thingy is basically BS. One revise action, you suddenly get a shiny, usable fighter, and we exhausted 2 designs and 2+ revisions to catch up.Their design is faster, more maneuverable and can fly higher than our fighter.I am not saying our fighter flies higher, as it lacks enclosed cabin and is generally outdated as shit, but they proably can't even reach half the maximum altitude of our bomber.
The thing is, it didn't even win the skies before the bomber existed. New fighter that outclasses opponents fighters with equal numbers? Air-to-air back to even.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 10:09:14 am
But yeah, the point where technologically more advanced designs tend to cost more resources is quite problematic.
Post by: Devastator on August 27, 2015, 10:14:19 am
We got a shiny, useable fighter which is both more expensive and less capable.
Err.. which one would that be? I don't think you've been behind in the air race since you made your fighter-bomber eight years ago. Right now you have a fighter of equal cost that's less capable, but winning anyway.
Post by: andrea on August 27, 2015, 11:33:53 am
That was before the bomber however. But I think the general picture is the same, except that our bomber can escape your fighters. ( your fighter likely has a better service ceiling than our, but without any kind of compressor ( supercharger, turbocharger) at high altitude it is going to lose a LOT of power.)
Post by: Sensei on August 27, 2015, 01:58:25 pm
For now, hurry up designs. Both threads look like an unending argument still, and this game's going to slow to a crawl if it's still going in three weeks. We need to keep it moving in case Moskurg turns it around and has to fight all the way back across Forenia. ;)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 27, 2015, 02:02:55 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 27, 2015, 02:10:09 pm
Post by: Sensei on August 27, 2015, 02:15:19 pm
For that matter, can we get a final word on the nuke?No.
Post by: Sheb on August 27, 2015, 03:35:31 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 27, 2015, 03:43:18 pm
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 01:03:49 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 28, 2015, 01:13:55 am
Moskurg, are you gonna sign the treaty or not?I still don't see the point of the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 01:15:26 am
We have a whole company of Moskurg prisoners. High Command on both sides want us to sign an arms treaty to ensure their safety. Also, the simple point of the treaty is to ensure that neither Arstotzka nor Moskurg do anything to cruel to kill the other. Of course, you could just ignore the orders given to you by your High Command, but that's your choice.Moskurg, are you gonna sign the treaty or not?I still don't see the point of the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 28, 2015, 01:20:24 am
This is what I'm talking about—what's the point? In-character, Arstotzka and Moskurg hate each other, so it makes sense for them to be cruel. Out-of-character, why should we impose limits on weapon design? I still don't see how banning a bunch of stuff would make the game more fun.We have a whole company of Moskurg prisoners. High Command on both sides want us to sign an arms treaty to ensure their safety. Also, the simple point of the treaty is to ensure that neither Arstotzka nor Moskurg do anything to cruel to kill the other. Of course, you could just ignore the orders given to you by your High Command, but that's your choice.Moskurg, are you gonna sign the treaty or not?I still don't see the point of the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 02:59:05 am
I think some people have the notion that gas, or WMDs, or possibly other tactics might make the game less fun. Indeed, you could ban anything that makes the game less fun, even if it's not something that was banned in historical treaties- for example, you could make a treaty that forbids the decryption of encrypted communications.This is what I'm talking about—what's the point? In-character, Arstotzka and Moskurg hate each other, so it makes sense for them to be cruel. Out-of-character, why should we impose limits on weapon design? I still don't see how banning a bunch of stuff would make the game more fun.We have a whole company of Moskurg prisoners. High Command on both sides want us to sign an arms treaty to ensure their safety. Also, the simple point of the treaty is to ensure that neither Arstotzka nor Moskurg do anything to cruel to kill the other. Of course, you could just ignore the orders given to you by your High Command, but that's your choice.Moskurg, are you gonna sign the treaty or not?I still don't see the point of the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 03:16:17 am
Who wants to dig the thread for the latest iteration of the treaty?
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 03:20:30 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 04:13:26 am
I actually proposed that anti- decryption article.Concur - Because we do not want "dump an extra revision to make decryption hard" moves.
Who wants to dig the thread for the latest iteration of the treaty?
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 04:23:46 am
+1I actually proposed that anti- decryption article.Concur - Because we do not want "dump an extra revision to make decryption hard" moves.
Who wants to dig the thread for the latest iteration of the treaty?
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 04:26:26 am
The latest version of my treaty, minus the non-weapon stuff.This treaty is goin' through next turn, methinks.Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 04:48:37 am
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 04:51:45 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 05:01:43 am
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
I submit this as an amendment to the proposed treaty.
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 05:03:03 am
I don't think there is even one signatory on team Moskurg to that..Evilcherry is Moskurg. I take it you're voting against, though?
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 05:14:25 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treatythis gets my vote
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
I submit this as an amendment to the proposed treaty.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 28, 2015, 05:34:06 am
Can we get the clause: "In the unlikely event that an agreement be made with 3 players from either side, additional rules can be put forward to vote."
Allows change, without cluttering up the thread as you need at least 3 people from either side before it even needs to be considered.
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 06:25:28 am
I don't think there is even one signatory on team Moskurg to that..Evilcherry is Moskurg. I take it you're voting against, though?
I'm not even certain Evilcherry said yes. That said, one vote shouldn't be enough to carry it. I see another from Kashyyk. If I vote yes, would it be binding?
I'm against it. There are many natural radioactives. I might be in favor of the other two elements, but no banning any kind of radioactive, as it could be extended to practically any weapon if examined in detail.
Post by: Ghazkull on August 28, 2015, 06:28:34 am
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 06:49:50 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 06:51:21 am
We could change it to 'radioactive contamination sufficiently higher than background radiation that it poses significant health concerns'
(There's also the not-insignificant amount of evidence that indicates health benefits to exposure to slight but more-than-background amounts of radiation.)
What would you like to have banned? If you need help turning it into legalese, I'd be glad to write something better.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 06:53:34 am
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that causes radioactive contamination higher than background radiation such that it causes increased radiation-related health concerns is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
How's that?
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 06:55:13 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 06:57:24 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 06:58:54 am
Nukes, basically. But because legalese, it means anything that's slightly more radioactive than normal.
That's not how you ban nukes. Here's how you would write up that:
"The employment of a weapon using a fission chain-reaction to generate explosive power."
That said, I'm against banning nukes. It's like saying, 'we don't have a weapon, so we would like you to legally agree to not using it, in return for nothing.'
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 07:00:23 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:01:36 am
We are also forbidding things like dirty bombs. For example, dropping large quantities of radium. We want to preserve the island.
Dirty bombs don't really work, though. A salted fission device, which would, needs a chain reaction to work. Cleaning up a chunk of radium requires a long-handled shovel and a steel drum, and takes quite a bit of effort to extract and purify. Powder and explosive fragments would require, at worst, a week with fire hoses.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 07:05:46 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:10:19 am
How do you define not working? As in, they don't contaminate stuff?
They are not militarily effective. They only work through the action of fear.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 07:18:31 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:19:58 am
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 07:22:30 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:29:00 am
Would you vote for the treaty if it included only fission reactions?
No. Arstotzka is not making any concessions. Writing it up as fission reactions is simply to fix a clause that doesn't say what it is supposed to say.
Post by: Sheb on August 28, 2015, 07:30:59 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:34:51 am
What kind of concession are you talking about?
Resources, technology, territory, or restrictions on existing Arstotzkan weaponry.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 07:34:51 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 07:54:32 am
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 08:04:05 am
So far we have ghazkull voting to have only the ban on decryption. Evilcherry supports that, not sure of stance on other matters. Kashyyk supports the current draft.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 28, 2015, 08:04:26 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 08:13:21 am
You get us not building them either, and we have more resources and a way to deliver them.
It is possible to destroy a city and kill people perfectly well without nuclear weapons.
Post by: tryrar on August 28, 2015, 08:17:37 am
You get us not building them either, and we have more resources and a way to deliver them.
It is possible to destroy a city and kill people perfectly well without nuclear weapons.
Seriously, if there is a condition you want for you to be on board with this, would you just come out and say what exactly it is? Not that I don't think it matters at this point since a good number of Moskurg players have said yes, but more consensus is better.
Post by: Baffler on August 28, 2015, 08:26:19 am
Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that causes radioactive contamination higher than background radiation such that it causes increased radiation-related health concerns is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
How's that?
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 08:34:30 am
I'll go for this version of the treaty.+1Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that causes radioactive contamination higher than background radiation such that it causes increased radiation-related health concerns is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
How's that?
Post by: tryrar on August 28, 2015, 08:37:44 am
+1I'll go for this version of the treaty.+1Proposed Arstotzka-Moskurg War Treaty
- The intentional usage of any solid, gaseous or liquid acidic, paralytic, or nerve agent that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that utilizes harmful natural or engineered diseases that can directly harm humans on humans is prohibited
- The intentional usage of any weapon that causes radioactive contamination higher than background radiation such that it causes increased radiation-related health concerns is prohibited
- The usage or production of any weapons capable of spreading radioactive contamination over any area is prohibited
- Only the intended recipient of an encoded message is permitted to decode it
How's that?
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 08:42:55 am
+1
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 08:49:45 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 09:05:25 am
Seriously, if there is a condition you want for you to be on board with this, would you just come out and say what exactly it is? Not that I don't think it matters at this point since a good number of Moskurg players have said yes, but more consensus is better.
To be honest, Tryrar, I'm wondering if Arstotzka would have been willing to offer anything, anything at all, to their opponents. I recieved the answer; No. I would have been interested in anything; Restrictions in tank production, aircraft production, expanding bullets, strategic bombing, naval warfare, resources, territory, local ceasefires, anything that was not explicitly pro-Arstotzka. What we get is an imprecise ban on chemical weapons, which some Moskurgians proposed, a ban on radioactive materials, which only Moskurg has any of, and a ban on radio decryption, which Arstotzka stands to gain more from, due to cheaper and thus more prevalent radios.
Voting yes on a deal where each and every line item is beneficial to Arstotzka is silly, and I can't see anything written there restricting or reducing Arstotzka's many advantages, only ones designed to hurt Moskurg.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on August 28, 2015, 09:09:15 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 09:13:21 am
Arstotzka does have more radios than us, yes. But we also gain from not getting our comms decrypted, possible more so as radio encryption is too time-consuming for anything other than strategic communications at the moment anyway.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 09:16:21 am
As for us making concessions, we didn't think of this treaty as biased. You found a bias, but you never said what you thought was fair for us to give up or offer proper discussion. As far as I am concerned, trying to work a deal with you is futile, because your goals are way too nebulous. ( you proposed this! We can't accept unless you give concessions. But you must propose them)
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 09:20:09 am
All those are fair enough, but it would be nice to get something out of conceding the advantage in radio, (as given the loss of so much territory, a good case could be made for not needing strategic radio communications), and removing doubt from their minds. We have something they want, and instead of asking a price for it, you would rather give it to our opponents in a hot war for free.
Seriously, add a ban on strategic bombing, and I'd be content. Or something else.
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 09:25:20 am
As for us making concessions, we didn't think of this treaty as biased. You found a bias, but you never said what you thought was fair for us to give up or offer proper discussion. As far as I am concerned, trying to work a deal with you is futile, because your goals are way too nebulous. ( you proposed this! We can't accept unless you give concessions. But you must propose them)
Fine, then. Here's a line item that would let me support the treaty:
Cities may not be destroyed through strategic bombing. Level bombing to destroy non-city targets or military targets outside of cities is allowed, as are ships at sea. Precision bombing via dive bombers is also allowed.
Post by: Sheb on August 28, 2015, 09:30:12 am
Seriously, you're just sounding shrilled and more annoying by the minute.
Post by: tryrar on August 28, 2015, 09:33:41 am
As for us making concessions, we didn't think of this treaty as biased. You found a bias, but you never said what you thought was fair for us to give up or offer proper discussion. As far as I am concerned, trying to work a deal with you is futile, because your goals are way too nebulous. ( you proposed this! We can't accept unless you give concessions. But you must propose them)
Fine, then. Here's a line item that would let me support the treaty:
Cities may not be destroyed through strategic bombing. Level bombing to destroy non-city targets or military targets outside of cities is allowed, as are ships at sea. Precision bombing via dive bombers is also allowed.
That I can actually get behind, if just so we can stop debating this treaty. I mean, if there's a military target in a city, then all we have to do is build an airfield in the nearby desert and divebomb the shit out of it.
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 09:40:37 am
We have an encryption machine which can crack your code and that you cannot decrypt. How is that advantaging us?
Seriously, you're just sounding shrilled and more annoying by the minute.
From the 1930 battle report:
Quote
This means that this year, both sides have secure communications, except in the occasional instances in which code key cards and schedules are stolen.
There was no mention of communications being broken for or against in '31. If both comms are secure, and you have more radios, you get more from radios.
Post by: Sheb on August 28, 2015, 09:56:00 am
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 10:11:41 am
In the absense of anything written for '31, I'd have to take the '30 turn at face value.
With that in mind, would you agree to the strategic bombing ban as above?
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 10:21:20 am
If you want to ban strategic bombing, you will have to concede some limitations on militarization of cities.
But before that, since the treaty doesn't need to be unanimous, I shall wait to see if the neutral version passes.
Edit:I'll count votes from each side as soon as I get home.
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
did I miss anyone?
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 11:14:24 am
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 11:16:57 am
any preference among the three?
Post by: Devastator on August 28, 2015, 11:19:04 am
did I miss anyone?
Tryar in favor of UR's. and I'm okay with the whole thing provided strategic bombing is banned.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 11:23:05 am
tryrar I think voted that in case we couldn't get the original treaty passed. I'll change if he confirms.
Post by: tryrar on August 28, 2015, 11:24:30 am
did I miss anyone?
Tryar in favor of UR's. and I'm okay with the whole thing provided strategic bombing is banned.
Well, I'm in favor of it just to shut you up, since it has a provision dealing with strategic bombing that doesn't outright ban it, but restricts using level bombing against cities severely and still allows us to use dive bombers for precision strikes. If that's not enough for you, then I'm just gonna switch back to the currently most supported one, which is Andres' version. Really now, you're the one who's holding this up.
And yeah andrea, if the two votes from moskurg for Andres' version isn't enough, my vote countes to UR's version as well since Dev supports that one.
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 11:29:27 am
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 11:30:38 am
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
Post by: Baffler on August 28, 2015, 11:48:55 am
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 11:52:00 am
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
Post by: heydude6 on August 28, 2015, 12:19:26 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 12:23:34 pm
What is Arstotzka's opinion on it?
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 12:35:24 pm
I am willing to support the ban on level bombing of cities. However, since we are restricting our ability to drop explosives on cities, cities should not be able to hold emplacements which require bombs.
I suggest that cities should not be able to hold fortified structures ( which, right now, they don't have anyway) or fixed artillery and flak emplacements. That is the bare minimum for me to consider it.
( this still allows tanks, mobile artillery , mobile AA, fixed AA machineguns, fixed and mobile recoilless rifles and anti tank weapons.
Post by: Baffler on August 28, 2015, 12:43:12 pm
Post by: andrea on August 28, 2015, 12:53:12 pm
however, more powerful AA could interdict the close air space, to which the counter is flying higher... which we can't do.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 28, 2015, 02:03:09 pm
Artillery and fortified structures I understand, but why fixed flak installations? If there isn't any bombing going on they would be useless, and if the flak batteries are known to be there both sides will be less willing to get an advantage by breaking the rules.Large FLAK is basically artillery. For example, our artillery is.
Besides, neither side is going to break the agreement. High command is very insistent upon that.
If you read further, Sensei said we should have been able to decrypt. I guess he forgot to mention it in 1931, and we were winning on all fronts anyway.
Depends. Is giving the entire decryption team a good whack over the head something which fits into a revision order?
Post by: heydude6 on August 28, 2015, 02:13:06 pm
Post by: Baffler on August 28, 2015, 04:10:56 pm
Spoiler: vote tally (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 04:56:05 pm
I support the ban on radio decryption. My vote was missed earlier.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 05:02:38 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on August 28, 2015, 05:17:29 pm
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 05:18:04 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on August 28, 2015, 05:45:35 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 07:42:19 pm
You don't need them against our dive bombers, which can be hit by machineguns and autocannons.Can we bring in a Flakbus?
however, more powerful AA could interdict the close air space, to which the counter is flying higher... which we can't do.
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on August 28, 2015, 07:46:55 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 28, 2015, 07:48:17 pm
You don't need them against our dive bombers, which can be hit by machineguns and autocannons.Can we bring in a Flakbus?
however, more powerful AA could interdict the close air space, to which the counter is flying higher... which we can't do.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 08:31:54 pm
Minus one to the treaty, puting limits on our creativity is a good way for a game like this to begin to die.Seriously I think the only proposals that has any traction is what explicitly prevents unfun actions. Up until now, that means WMDs in general (as one can bring in a national effort Nuke, drop it atop the other capital, and claim victory), and the "I use a spy action to make better encryption" ruckus.
((to be fair, "You don't want this hypothetical weapon and you want to ban it, now please let us name one something (which can be very real) to ban in return" isn't constructive discussion, if this counts as discussion at all.))
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 08:49:25 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 08:51:46 pm
And for some reason Moskurg thinks they're entitled to use the treaty to get an advantage over us.We don't think we're entitled. We're just trying to win. Same as you guys.
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 08:53:41 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 28, 2015, 08:55:23 pm
Filthy disgusting dishonourable Moskurgs using a treaty to further their goals like dogs it's depraved.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Chill, dude, seriously. There's a very real chance that we'll lose in the next few turns.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 28, 2015, 08:58:40 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on August 28, 2015, 09:00:41 pm
Also I think the roleplaying is getting a little bit far there, Andres.
^^^
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 09:03:04 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 09:06:00 pm
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 28, 2015, 09:07:51 pm
I don't see what's so bad about this, guys. Why are you all jumping on Andres?I just thought the comment was a bit harsh for a Forum Game dispute over a Minor treaty that wasn't really going to change much.
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 09:08:44 pm
Not really, we've been saying plenty like that to each other over the whole game, that isn't much worse.I don't see what's so bad about this, guys. Why are you all jumping on Andres?I just thought the comment was a bit harsh for a Forum Game dispute over a Minor treaty that wasn't really going to change much.
Post by: Baffler on August 28, 2015, 09:17:49 pm
Not really, we've been saying plenty like that to each other over the whole game, that isn't much worse.I don't see what's so bad about this, guys. Why are you all jumping on Andres?I just thought the comment was a bit harsh for a Forum Game dispute over a Minor treaty that wasn't really going to change much.
Yeah really, I do the same thing every so often.
but leave it to the arsetotzkan pigs to take it too far. Moskurg best country. Remove RPG from the premises.
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 09:24:49 pm
Being harsh over a minor treaty is certainly in-character for Arstotzka and Moskurg. I didn't mean it as insults to the players themselves.I don't see what's so bad about this, guys. Why are you all jumping on Andres?I just thought the comment was a bit harsh for a Forum Game dispute over a Minor treaty that wasn't really going to change much.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 28, 2015, 09:33:55 pm
*Chzchh*Call off the thought police, false alarm, false alarm.*Chzchh*
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 11:20:31 pm
Quote
Warning - while you were typing 22 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.I've not read all these! If something important happened, I'll get to it later.
1932 Army Status
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 11:21:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2015, 11:22:14 pm
Some American engineers are seeking a wealthier employment designing weapons in Forenia, to get away from the Great Depression. Under cover of darkness, they flee across the ocean southward. They know only that Forenia has two nations which both are constantly producing weapons, and so will join the nation with the best propaganda made before the 1933 Battle Report, and will grand a Design Credit.
1932 Battle Report
This is the edited version of the report. Compared to the original, Moskurg radio improvements do not give them a significant advantage of Arstotzkans who already had cheap radios, and the Bumblebee is more effective against ground targets.
This year, Arstotzka built their new AS-HF-32, a turbo powered fighter plane specialized for the role. Aside from being fast and maneuverable, it's armed with two cannons, two machine guns, and optional new extra fuel tanks occupying bomb mounts. It can climb past the AS-1931-HAFB. Arstotzka also improved their parachute rigging, so that their paratroopers can be armed with rifles. Moskurg, seeking to counter Arstotzka's new bombers, build the Bumblebee AT/AA gun. It includes fuzed flak rounds and most of all, a targeting calculator which can set fuzes and help gunners predict the lead on the target. It can be aimed at the ground as well, although that doesn't really take advantage of these features. Moskurg also improved the manufacturing process used for their vacuum tubes, making the model 3 radio cheap. Aircraft and tanks are relatively easy to fit with it.
The war in the air is upset by Arstotzka's new fighter, as well as Moskurg's flak. The AS-HF-32 is by a good margin the best fighter in the skies. Its turbo engine well outperforms the AS-HF-24 as well as the Yellowjacket. This new aircraft gives Arstotzka a considerable advantage in dogfighting. Against a Yellowjacket, an HF-32 has a significant advantage in energy fighting, being able to arrive at fights with more speed and escape to higher altitudes before stalling. Its fuel droppable fuel tank system works well, and allows it to move over Moskurg's capitol, but is generally not used because the AS-1931-HAFB doesn't have as much range. However, the Bumblebee AT/AA proves very effective, at least at the AA part. While it's not much better than machine guns when engaging dive bombers at close range, AS-1931 bombers tend to be flying in straight lines at high altitude. A battery of Bumblebees firing together creates a lot of flak up in the air, and can often shoot down AS-1931's before they drop their payload. This does not mean that AS-1931's are not dropping a lot of bombs, but their effect is mitigated and it helps compensate for Arstotzka's fighter superiority. Overall, both sides successfully drop less bombs on their targets than last year. AS-DB's also see some more use, despite having the same cost as the heavier-payload AS-1931. The effectiveness of paratroopers is also impacted by Moskurg's new AA.
In the jungle, soldiers are using all of the same weapons they were last year, with the exception that Moskurg radio operators are now common on the squad level. In general Arstotzka has the advantage, their grenades and MC16's are more effective in close combat. Moskurg flamethrowers have a terrorizing effect on Arstotzkan soldiers, but are most useful in stationary fights such as in forts and emplacements due to their lack of range. Arstotzkan AS-T25's and Moskurg T2 Breakers perform similarly, but the Breakers are outnumbered. However, now most tanks and squads have a Model 3 radio. Models 3's are hastily fitted in (or literally placed inside, with batteries and all) Breakers. When AS-T25 advances on the road are spotted, Breakers fire a couple shots, then flee the scene giving orders for Recoilless Rifle crews to set up a series of ambushes and Arstotzkan tanks give chase. This doesn't make up for Arstotzka's numerical advantage, but now Moskurg roadblocks are regularly augmented with one or more Bumblee guns ready to shoot oncoming tanks, which helps slow Arstotzka's advance, although these are still often lost to infantry combat. Arstotzkan paratroopers heckle Moskurg rear lines, sometimes, but at this point a lot of fighting getting outside Arstotzkan bomber range. Arstotzka does not gain more jungle this year, but Moskurg is barely clinging on. (2/4)
In the mountains, not every Moskurg squad uses a heavy Model 3 radio, because they have a greater impact on mobility. Moskurg's mines are decently protected from air attack, but they are threatened by infantry from the south. Careful and communicative squads using M3 Sorraias and scoped rifles delay Arstotzka's advance, but only a little. Arstotzka again encounters Breaker tanks and SPATs and Bumblebee guns and similar emplacements. Breakers are difficult to kill for Arstotzkan, requiring multiple RPG and mortar hits, partly thanks to Arstotzka's wonky shaped HEAT RPGs. Arstotzka does not take Moskurg's mines. (3/4) Petyr Tavish, an Arstotzkan sniper, is awarded the Glory Cross for achieving fifty-three kills in one year.
In the desert, Arstotzkan troops attempt to march on the plains past Moskurg's eastern city, now in the central desert. The terrain here is dry and rocky, rather than rolling sand dunes, dotted with shrubs and cacti, and a few areas with deep ravines, and cliffs and caves, carved by rivers and streams which go through this dry land towards Moskurg's capitol. Moskurg soldiers know the land well, and generally outmaneuver Arstotzkans due to their intimate knowledge of nature's hidden nooks and crannies here. Moskurg's Breaker tanks and horses engage Arstotzkan T-25's and M17 motorcycles. Some bumblebees are used as portable AT guns, which helps make up for Moskurg's lack of cheap firepower. They have excellent armor penetration with HEAT rounds, but their accuracy suffers due to the sight being poorly design for ground targets, and they cannot traverse quickly when enemy tanks get close. Their lack of any armor also makes their crews high priority targets for snipers. T2 Breakers' small range advantage comes into play again, although the T25 speed advantage can often make this fleeting. Arstotzkan bombers record a lot of kills, but suffer high casualties to anti-air fire. Arstotzkan motorcycles once again clash with Moskurg cavalry, mostly as tank escorts. Moskurg cavalry armed with Hippos can sometimes take out a tank (if they aren't shot first, the visible recoilless rifles make them a priority target), but Arstotzkan motorcycles can't get get much use out of their shaped charges and RPGs. Moskurg's MK-47s used by cavalry are inaccurate but they have a wider arc of aim than sidecar AS-1924 gunners, the two have similar amounts of casualties. Infantry sometimes fight both at long range, and in dark caves and crevices where Moskurg has fortifications. Arstotzkan soldiers are decent at clearing these out, but sometimes can't advance past a flamethrower position, and Moskurg weapons caches remain well hidden. Nobody gains ground, Arstotzka still only holds the east desert.
Each nation's intelligence committee selects a new agent from their stock of learning-disabled citizens, for it is only them they can trust not to learn that they are actually working for a country that neither loves nor cares for them, and defect while abroad. You may PM me to suggest their code name.
That's all for the 1932 turn, you can start correcting my mistakes now! ;)
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 11:40:42 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 28, 2015, 11:41:36 pm
Post by: Playergamer on August 28, 2015, 11:42:35 pm
Post by: Andres on August 28, 2015, 11:43:38 pm
It's because yours was Complex when you stole it, and I don't think you ever fixed that, just converted it to inferior metric. If I'm wrong, sue me.Arstotzka sues this Moskurg filth for being wrong. When we designed our computer, it made our radio cheap.
Post by: evilcherry on August 28, 2015, 11:46:35 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 28, 2015, 11:48:28 pm
As for the flamethrowers, I'm presuming they have a lot more fuel to throw from a defensive emplacement.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 29, 2015, 12:54:13 am
Wait, how can our 88mm FlaK copy not outrange every single Astrotzkan weapon on ground?
It probably can (remove wunderwaffe from premises) but the soldiers read anti-air cannon and pointed it downwards.
Post by: Sensei on August 29, 2015, 02:47:48 am
Our radios are identical to theirs and have been cheap for ages. Why do they get a large bonus to communications all of a sudden?Hm, wow. This might be the first mistake that calls for me to properly re-write a turn. I need to pore through and make sure that's correct, if someone could find the posts where I decreased the cost of Arstotzkan vacuum tubes it would help. I had the impression that T-25's were for some reason not already usually equipped with radios- if that IS the case, then I'll probably keep the turn (even though that's a little cheap that Moskurg got the radio straight into all their tanks and Arstotzka didn't, I know) but let Arstotzka pop their radios into all craft with an order. If I made some mention of Arstotzkans having an advantage due to most of their vehicles already having radios already, then I need to rewrite the turn and amend some vehicle entries so I don't do absent-minded shit like that again.
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 02:58:31 am
In addition, you have converted the Model 3 Radio to metric manufacture, reducing its expense.This is the turn we made it cheaper. After we made the DC29, we pointed out that we'd converted the radio to metric two years prior so you said we managed to make it cheaper. I'll try finding your quote saying that.
EDIT:
On a side note, you erroneously said that we converted the radio to metric, which we already did several turns before. Does that mean it simply becomes cheap instead?
Hmm... *rolls D6*
Yes.
EDIT2:
-IP-R25: It can also fit in most vehicles without affecting performance (or take up the entire sidecar on an M17 bike).If our radio wasn't being used in our vehicles, then why was it mentioned in the description?
Post by: Taricus on August 29, 2015, 03:27:00 am
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 03:29:23 am
Some Arstotzkan aircraft are fitted with the IP-R27 radio, which helps them coordinate with ground forces to choose the most effective targets, as Moskurg has been doing for a while.So it seems we've had a history of using our radio to co-ordinate attacks. This was two years before our radio become cheap.
Post by: Funk on August 29, 2015, 03:30:27 am
Also, flamethrowers from the 1960s only had a few seconds of burn time, meaning flamethrower strikes needed to be precise and surgical. They can't be used well defensively like they're being used right now.They must have massive tanks holding large amounts of highly flammable fuel, dangerous and they must have to change the tanks often.
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 03:33:20 am
Can they really do so quickly enough before Arstotzkan stormtroopers can assault the place? Besides, if they were keeping that much flammable fuel lying around, wouldn't that be a major hazard and also a large drain on Oil?Also, flamethrowers from the 1960s only had a few seconds of burn time, meaning flamethrower strikes needed to be precise and surgical. They can't be used well defensively like they're being used right now.They must have massive tanks holding large amounts of highly flammable fuel, dangerous and they must have to change the tanks often.
EDIT: Our HF-32 is equipped with bomb racks. Since our DB is basically our old HF with bomb racks, are our HF-32 be able to function as dive bombers? Do they do the job better than the DBs?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 29, 2015, 03:49:28 am
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 03:52:01 am
One thing is tyat the Tiger's whisper is cheap, whereas our decoder isn't.But it was doing well enough to stalemate Moskurg on the communications front, so its expense apparently isn't an issue.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 29, 2015, 03:55:04 am
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 03:56:46 am
I don't know about you, but if I knew that there was a flamethrower just round the corner, I give him the opportunity to burn me. I'd be waiting around the corner for a better plan than "be a firewall for the guy behind you". All he'd have to do is release a little gout of flame to scare people off.If there was a flamethrower just around the corner, grenades would be used. We've got frag, smoke, and incendiary.
Post by: Kashyyk on August 29, 2015, 04:06:09 am
Spoiler: AS-T25 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 04:08:57 am
-AS-DB-HF-23: An airplane built entirely from aluminium. This lighter, sturdier frame allows the plane be reasonably fast with a 9-cylinder radial engine and make aggressive dives and recoveries for bombing, with half a ton of bombs. The radial engine is designed entirely around an AS-AC18 which fires through the prop shaft, necessitating a relatively heavy and thick prop shaft. It has decent maneuverability, with its metal design allowing for strong forces on the wings and tail, and large control surfaces, but it is best at dogfighting while not carrying a bomb load. Costs 4 ore, 3 oil.Neither of our aircraft descriptions say they have radios in them but it was stated that they were in use inside them.
-AS-HF-24: An airplane built entirely from aluminium. Based on the AS-DB-HF-23's light and sturdy frame, with bomb mounts omitted in favor of four lightweight AS-1924 machine guns, modified to accept belts. Two barrels visibly protrude from the front of each wing. The radial engine is designed entirely around an AS-AC18 which fires through the prop shaft, necessitating a relatively heavy and thick prop shaft. Unlike the DB version, it is fuel injected which is terribly complex and a bit heavy but allows more power for the same fuel. It has decent maneuverability, with its metal design allowing for strong forces on the wings and tail, and large control surfaces, but it is a bit heavy. Costs 4 ore, 3 oil
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2015, 04:34:51 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on August 29, 2015, 10:14:38 am
Wait, how can our 88mm FlaK copy not outrange every single Astrotzkan weapon on ground?Peculiar indeed. Maybe the optics don't work out?
Post by: heydude6 on August 29, 2015, 08:28:14 pm
Yeah, we got the Radio cheap after designing those vehicles, and I don't think Sensei updated the descriptions.The main difference is this though. Our vehicles were specifically designed to accept radios once they became cheaper.
Post by: Andres on August 29, 2015, 08:42:53 pm
But Sensei said multiple times (in our thread at least) that we could put our radios in our vehicles. The description specifically says we can put it in all of our vehicles without losing performance.Yeah, we got the Radio cheap after designing those vehicles, and I don't think Sensei updated the descriptions.The main difference is this though. Our vehicles were specifically designed to accept radios once they became cheaper.
Post by: Taricus on August 30, 2015, 02:40:41 am
Post by: Sensei on August 30, 2015, 02:49:17 am
I'm going to edit the turn now. Possibly better for Arstotzka.
Post by: Taricus on August 30, 2015, 02:51:16 am
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2015, 02:54:27 am
Actually, one thing I don't understand is how they got cheap radios whilst still having less experience in that department, doubly so since encryption machines don't use vacuum tubes.The DC29 is a computer. Computers used vacuum tubes, according to Wikipedia.
Post by: Sensei on August 30, 2015, 02:55:25 am
Actually, one thing I don't understand is how they got cheap radios whilst still having less experience in that department, doubly so since encryption machines don't use vacuum tubes.Good rolls. And the encryption machines involve receiving and transmitting radio signals as much as regular radios do.
Post by: Taricus on August 30, 2015, 03:06:40 am
Post by: Sensei on August 30, 2015, 03:12:37 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 30, 2015, 03:35:59 am
Vacuum tube computers are a bit of a way off, and weren't used for encryption. And most encryption devices in the period were mechanical computers. As for transmission, the machines weren't used for tactical-level units, just written/typed messages used in HQ units.Technically, our encryption machines are 1-bit mechanical computers.
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2015, 08:34:14 am
Post by: Kashyyk on August 30, 2015, 08:37:56 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 30, 2015, 09:12:18 am
Vacuum tube computers are a bit of a way off, and weren't used for encryption. And most encryption devices in the period were mechanical computers. As for transmission, the machines weren't used for tactical-level units, just written/typed messages used in HQ units.
Yes we have a mechanical computer, based on the Tiger's Whisper, I do not know why everyone keeps saying it has vacuum tubes.
Post by: Sheb on August 30, 2015, 12:21:25 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 30, 2015, 12:33:04 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 30, 2015, 12:36:38 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 30, 2015, 12:41:23 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 30, 2015, 01:14:24 pm
Post by: Kot on August 30, 2015, 01:18:12 pm
Post by: evilcherry on August 30, 2015, 02:10:51 pm
The thing is, it wouldn't be able to encrypt the radio signals at all. And if it's a modified tiger's whisper, it wouldn't be able to help decrypt messages, given that those two types of devices are pretty different.Not really. The Tiger's whisper works by encoding every letter to a different signal length (or in modern computer terms, how many bits it has been in the on state). Decryption is simply you feeding the signal into the output of the Tiger's whisper and it will show lights according to the signal length. The operator then jots it down (or one can use a series of solenoids/vacuum tubes to control a printout).
Its only a 1-bit computer and not that complicated.
Post by: Sensei on August 30, 2015, 03:43:02 pm
Hey Sensei, does the "pre 1933" propaganda includes the one made before 1932 too?I suppose you could resubmit them if they haven't won before.
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2015, 05:40:18 pm
and for just this one time, it is actually true, rather than an holliwood-esque 'inspired by real facts'
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2015, 05:46:44 pm
Post by: Elfeater on August 30, 2015, 05:47:43 pm
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2015, 06:10:35 pm
as for mixing us: I am the odd planetarium thingy, while Andres is the odd humanoid flaming thingy.
Post by: Baffler on August 30, 2015, 06:12:07 pm
propaganda time!
and for just this one time, it is actually true, rather than an holliwood-esque 'inspired by real facts'Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
The ongoing war is not a problem for Arstotzka, as it is fought in a foreign land, leaving a peaceful life for all civilians, immigrants, and tourists in the cities. In fact, it has been a resource, turning Arstotzka into a land of innovation and invention, of which you may soon be a part!
Absolutely disgusting. The Moskurger fights not for petty personal gains like the avaricious Arsetotzkans, who even now plunder our beautiful Forenia to construct their crude weapons and satisfy their rapacious mercenary gangs. The Moskurger fights to defend the principles of civilized society! Freedom, order, cooperation, and strength are as fundamentally intrinsic to him as they are clearly inimical to the yokels freezing themselves to death in their huts south of the border.
Seriously though, nice work there.
Post by: Andres on August 31, 2015, 04:11:35 am
Post by: evilcherry on August 31, 2015, 04:38:45 am
Is it possible for Arstotzka to loot the cities it captured to get an Expense credit?Unless you want to accelerate the game what's this good for?
Post by: Kot on August 31, 2015, 04:43:27 am
Accelerating the game.Is it possible for Arstotzka to loot the cities it captured to get an Expense credit?Unless you want to accelerate the game what's this good for?
Post by: Sheb on August 31, 2015, 04:43:41 am
Post by: Baffler on August 31, 2015, 05:02:28 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit: Fixed. For real this time!
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 31, 2015, 05:05:04 pm
More for thepropagandaaccurate and objective information pile.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The link is broken.
Post by: andrea on August 31, 2015, 05:12:48 pm
By the way, I suggest you take a new screen in which you don't have a box selected.
Nice work :) I generally use a more charged language, but probably that is me exagerating.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 01, 2015, 04:36:11 pm
Spoiler: Immigration Pamphlet (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on September 01, 2015, 04:52:28 pm
But seriously, nice work. Although the bit about 'long lasting timeline of unity' is perhaps the biggest lie ever told in the propaga war :P.
Artists of Arstotzka, defend your pride!
Post by: Taricus on September 01, 2015, 04:53:39 pm
Post by: Sheb on September 01, 2015, 04:54:02 pm
Post by: heydude6 on September 01, 2015, 04:55:58 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on September 01, 2015, 04:58:04 pm
Post by: Sheb on September 01, 2015, 04:58:30 pm
Post by: Elfeater on September 01, 2015, 04:58:56 pm
"Come to Arstotzka, we'll make you jump out of a plane towards a load of guys with AA guns!""And if you land they will still be firing at you with their AT guns"
Post by: Playergamer on September 01, 2015, 04:59:47 pm
Also, Moskurg Strong! Glorious Radio is much better then Arsetotzkan Propaganda!
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 01, 2015, 05:01:11 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on September 01, 2015, 05:04:42 pm
Seriously though, I've always thought eastern european.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 01, 2015, 05:05:06 pm
Seriously though, I've always thought eastern european.
Same.
Post by: andrea on September 01, 2015, 05:09:34 pm
edit: by the way, I want to issue a correction on my propaganda submission. The ribbon at the top was not centered and was blue, now it is fixed.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Baffler on September 01, 2015, 05:19:38 pm
Post by: andrea on September 01, 2015, 05:24:14 pm
Well , as much sense as 2 ancient tribes of russians and middle easterns on a ex british giant tiny pacific island make at any rate.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 01, 2015, 06:15:05 pm
mix of Middle Eastern and Greek
uhm... okay. I'm not sure how that'd sound, but okay. I'll try to look it up. :P
Post by: tryrar on September 01, 2015, 06:47:07 pm
'll do 4 entries per post to keep it from exceeding character count.
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday March 11th, 1932 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday March 18th, 1932 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday March 25th, 1932 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday April 1st, 1932 (click to show/hide)
Post by: tryrar on September 01, 2015, 07:14:43 pm
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday April 8th, 1932 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Diary of Lieutenant Anton Ustinev, Friday April 15th, 1932 (click to show/hide)
SStopping here to recharge brain. Whew
Post by: Kot on September 02, 2015, 08:50:11 am
Spoiler: Pssst do these old ones count (click to show/hide)
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 03, 2015, 03:48:04 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 03, 2015, 03:49:45 pm
Post by: andrea on September 03, 2015, 03:53:09 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 03, 2015, 04:05:40 pm
I always forget what day of the week it is, and I thought both sides finished their turns on, like, Tuesday.
Post by: Sensei on September 04, 2015, 03:50:41 am
Post by: Sensei on September 06, 2015, 05:48:25 am
Moskurg's excellent propaganda fliers win this contest. Moskurg gains One Design Credit. They're going to need it.
Nazi Germany
Germany, now ruled by the Nazi Party, has left the League of Nation and is beginning to re-arm, in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler is looking to Forenia, which is now internationally regarded as a source of unusual and occasionally useful weapons, as a place for weapon designs to get a head start over the rest of Europe. This year, he is looking for a general infantry rifle, and offering 1 ore for three years.
An Anonymous Contract
An intermediary seller is looking to purchase effective ship-to-ship deck guns, or machine guns. Resources to produce the weapons will be provided, in addition to one expense credit. You are discouraged from thinking too closely about the intended use for such weapons.
1933 Battle Report
This year, Arstotzka built the AS-T33 tank. It's similar to the AS-T25 design, but has Heavy front armor, an electrically operated turret, and a larger gun, and a radio as a standard feature. It's very effective, but also Very Expensive. Arstotzka also improved their RPG's rockets to fly more accurately, all rockets have twisted fins and the HEAT rockets are shaped like those which will later be invented in the rest of the world instead of being large and flat-ended. Moskurg designed the Tiger Infantry Armor, a heavy set of armor made of Manganese Steel alloy, which weighs over thirty pounds and hinders its user's movement, but includes a helmet with full face cover, upper arm and leg coverage which can stop pistol rounds, and a chest piece which can stop rifle rounds. It's Very Expensive, which means it will only be available to a few elite squads. What will likely have a bigger effect on the war is the MK-47A, Moskurg's new revision of the MK-47 built around the intermediate-sized .280 caliber round. It's a little lighter and includes a tactical rail, but the big difference is that the recoil is no longer unmanageable. It isn't select fire, though, only automatic.
In the air, Arstotzka's AS-1931-HAFB moves from Expensive to Very Expensive, due to the end of their ore contract with the Chinese. AS-DB's take up some of the slack, but the big developments this year take place on the ground.
In the rocky central desert, Arstotzka rolls towards Moskurg's capitol. Last year, Arstotzka had an advantage in armored warfare due to their tanks being less expensive and their prevalent AS-MAT26 tank destroyer. Both sides have cannons which can penetrate the other's armor at long range with a well-aimed square hit, armed with HEAT rounds. Now a good portion of Arstotzka's tanks are AS-T33's, the bigger meaner cousin of the AS-T25. In fact, in addition to their AS-T25's which are of similar quality but greater number to the T2 Breaker, Arstotzka has as many AS-T33's as Moskurg has T2 Breakers. The AS-T33's Heavy front armor can stop most hits at medium range, thanks to its aggressive sloping, and its 75mm gun can penetrate Moskurg armor from a great distance. Tank Commander Char, standing still on a ridge, has his tank destroyed because of the unexpected range of Arstotzka's new guns, but survives. Naturally, Arstotzka has a huge advantage in armored fights, although they lose a number of tanks (mostly T25's) to downwards-pointed Bumblebee guns. Moskurg cavalry and tunnel fighters adopt to MK-47A, which is lighter than the M3 Sorraia and more controllable for medium-range engagements. The few Tiger Infantry Armor suits available are assigned to bunker machine gunners and storm troopers. They are greatly effective, and the soldiers equipped with them often appear to be bulletproof heroes (until they get shot in the hand, or exposed to a 20mm AC-18). A good shot from a Nosin sniper with AP rounds will still punch through the weaker parts of the armor, sometimes including the face mask. A couple Tigers Armors are lost this way, but with careful deployment most remain in service. Officially speaking, according the Moskurg High Command, Tiger Soldiers are never killed. According to Arstotzkan high command, they are clumsy and easily dealt with. The truth is that in close quarters where sub machine guns are used, a tiger soldier was not killed this year, but a couple were in machine gun positions. Because of Moskurg's command of tunnels and bunkers, Arstozkans and their armor and supplies are regularly vexed by MK-47A armed cavalry, and infantry with Rhino Recoilless Rifles. This has a significant effect, but not enough to overcome Arstotzka's avantage in armor versus armor battles. Arstotzka gains ground. (1/4).
In the mountains, T2 breakers, SPATS, and machine gun positions are assaulted by Arstotzkan infantry with rifles (scoped for officers), light machine guns, mortars and RPG28's with new more accurate rockets and effective HEAT warheads. The new HEAT warheads have about a 50% chance of penetrating slat armor on a square hit, and more if that slat armor has already been damaged, by AS-1911 mortars for example. With Arstotzka's already significant sniper advantage, Arstotzka is able to neutralize machine gunners reliably enough that their RPG users can attack tanks, and fight the mines on an infantry level. Moskurg soldiers retreat into the mines themselves and are besieged, often unable to load trains. They do not lose control of this portion of the mountain, but the Moskurg ore supply is disrupted (Arstotzka 3/4). Failure to regain this ore will certainly end the war.
In the jungle, the new MK-47 proves very useful. While it lacks single-fire and squads still need to includes rifle and submachine gun soldiers, it fills a more flexible role than the M3 Sorraia, with the gun and its ammo both being lighter. The MK-47 can be fired accurately from standing or kneeling in bursts, although this requires good trigger discipline. It's very useful in infantry fighting around the roads, although with most troops not using the Hippo, mobile infantry assaults on armor still cannot occur. This is unfortunate for Moskurg, because the AS-T33 is far more likely to win close-range road fights with its heavy front armor and big gun, and the fact that its turret now moves almost as quickly as those on the Moskurg T2 Breaker (its heavier gun slows it somewhat) eliminates a disadvantage. The Tiger Infantry Armor is used by one squad of elite soldiers in the jungle. They move slowly compared to other soldiers, but can still run. They are very effective in close range combat, and are decent in mid-range combat where they don't use their face masks, but they are easily outmaneuvered because they are both slow and cannot easily hide in bushes. They do successfully assault some Arstotzkan forts and artillery positions. Most of the soldiers in this squad are injured multiple times, they receive rifle, pistol or SMG fire to their extremities but live to tell the tale. One receives a 7.62mmAP bullet right through the helmet. Arstotzkan soldiers recover the armor, Moskurg High Command labels the soldier as "missing". The two nations are locked into a stalemate. (2/4)
Arstotzkan Secret Agent "Fried Potato" makes a play for the plans to Moskurg's Bumblebee AT/AA gun. He crafts an identity for himself and earns a seat on a Moskurg design conference, hoping to slip into a backroom and steal the plans, or even be presented with them. Moskurg Secret Agent Kingsnake is on his trail, he captured and interrogated the man who helped Fried Potato forge his ID, but didn't learn which ID was the Arstotzkan agent exactly- only that Arstotzka was trying to plant an agent in the design conference. Consequently, he poisoned the entire conference's coffee with a powerful laxative. Fried Potato, and a number of innocent engineers, remained glued to the toilet for too long to make any attempt at stealing the Bumblebee design. However, agent Fried Potato successfully returns with a photograph of one design poster: A big sheet of paper, with the words "NUKULaR WEPON" doodled in blue crayon with an unsteady hand. The design illustrations show (Figure 1) a simple blue crayon drawing of a bomb, and an explosion made of jagged scribbled in red and yellow crayon, with little other information aside from an illustration (Figure 2) of an "ADOM", which is a Bohr-model atom consisting solely of a long red proton orbited by several blue electrons. Arstotzkan High Command cancels the construction of their secret bunker.
You may now begin the 1934 Design Phase.
Choose your actions carefully.
Post by: Sensei on September 06, 2015, 05:48:44 am
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on September 06, 2015, 05:49:04 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on September 06, 2015, 06:33:58 am
Post by: Sheb on September 06, 2015, 06:54:29 am
I mean, we aren't the one who stalled the treaty.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 06, 2015, 06:56:32 am
Re treaty. Actually you are. Last i checked we have more Moskurg signatories on the various treaty designs than Arstotzka does.
Post by: Andres on September 06, 2015, 06:59:41 am
Hehe, offer the Nazi our company of Moskurg prisoner to alpha test their camps.-1. We are not barbarians. (Also, the world doesn't know about Germany's camps yet.)
I mean, we aren't the one who stalled the treaty.
Re treaty. Actually you are. Last i checked we have more Moskurg signatories on the various treaty designs than Arstotzka does.No, we had a treaty lined up and ready to be approved but then Moskurg started saying that bombers should be banned. They even explicitly said they were trying to get something out of the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on September 06, 2015, 07:00:20 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 06, 2015, 07:01:22 am
Are we still destroying Moskurg's trains with our bombers? Considering we now have a heavy bomber, have we started destroying their trucks or at least the roads leading to Moskurg's mines?Our bomber is rather short ranged. It don't think it can actually reach the mountains.
Besides, we have or are about to disturbe their ore, so all's well.
Post by: Sheb on September 06, 2015, 07:31:43 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 06, 2015, 08:39:32 am
Quote
One receives a 7.62mmAP bullet right through the helmet.
Yes, but not always. In fact, probably not most of the time.
Post by: Sensei on September 06, 2015, 02:21:53 pm
I'm pretty sure that's what Sensei is referring to by our ore supply being disputed.It means that moskurg will not receive their ore from the mountains next turn. However, if you push the Arstotzkans back, it won't take the usual year of delay before production starts up again.
Re treaty. Actually you are. Last i checked we have more Moskurg signatories on the various treaty designs than Arstotzka does.
Post by: tryrar on September 07, 2015, 05:45:51 am
Quote
Wanna scare Arstotzka with our nukes some more? :P
Speaking of that Tar, I'll admit you gave us all a scare until we counted up the turns and realized there was no way in heck you could have initiated a secret nuclear weapons program with any action other than GM fiat :P. Whose idea was that anyways?
Post by: Kot on September 07, 2015, 09:02:12 am
Speaking of that Tar, I'll admit you gave us all a scare until we counted up the turns and realized there was no way in heck you could have initiated a secret nuclear weapons program with any action other than GM fiat :P. Whose idea was that anyways?Wait.
People actually tought Moskurgs have a real nuclear program? I thought it was a joke, because, you know, salt and stuff.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 07, 2015, 10:17:21 am
Post by: Andres on September 07, 2015, 10:41:21 pm
Post by: Taricus on September 07, 2015, 10:42:19 pm
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on September 08, 2015, 09:36:25 am
Post by: Kot on September 08, 2015, 09:42:41 am
Was it Kot? Anyways, I would like permission to defect to Moskurg, my reasons being that I would like a greater challenge.Are you implying I'm a traitor like you or the certain other person with certain nationality?
Post by: Hiddenleafguy on September 08, 2015, 10:31:42 am
Post by: Andres on September 10, 2015, 02:53:58 am
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 03:04:09 am
Post by: Sheb on September 10, 2015, 03:08:31 am
Post by: tryrar on September 10, 2015, 03:15:24 am
Yeah, don't worry, it's just that incendiary bullets are his new obsession, now that we have an SMG.
I seriously doubt incendiary is what will counter their armor, Andres. Don't Worry, I have a cunning plan! :P
Post by: Sheb on September 10, 2015, 03:18:10 am
Post by: Andres on September 10, 2015, 03:21:08 am
Yeah, don't worry, it's just that incendiary bullets are his new obsession, now that we have an SMG.I'm not obsessed, I'm just curious.
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 03:24:14 am
Frankly, they lack motorised transports, we should just have a doctrine of stepping a bit back and waiting for their troops to die from exhaustion. Or seed the countryside with millions of tiny magnetic mines.Yeah... I think you missed our truck design Sheb :P
Post by: Sheb on September 10, 2015, 03:26:09 am
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 03:29:12 am
Post by: Sheb on September 10, 2015, 03:32:44 am
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 03:37:25 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 10, 2015, 04:16:19 am
Which isn't armored, and isn't fast enough to dodge shots.Frankly, they lack motorised transports, we should just have a doctrine of stepping a bit back and waiting for their troops to die from exhaustion. Or seed the countryside with millions of tiny magnetic mines.Yeah... I think you missed our truck design Sheb :P
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 07:35:41 am
Post by: Aseaheru on September 10, 2015, 07:51:15 am
Post by: Taricus on September 10, 2015, 07:52:58 am
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 04:38:22 am
This year, Hitler announced himself Fuhrer, abolishing the old system. Both the AS-AR34 and the MK47A are submitted directly to Hitler for review. After demonstrations of the weapons, the AR34 is clearly favored, for its select fire feature and for being much lighter than the MK47. The AS-AR34 will be produced, in secret for now, as the choice weapon of Germany's infantry. Arstotzka will receive +1 ore until 1937.
Anonymous Buyers
The contract is for ship to ship deck guns, and the Bumblebee and AS-AC18 are considered. The Bumblebee, ultimately, is chosen for its range and armor-penetrating ability. Moskurg will receive an Expense Credit.
The Civilian Market
Although the great depression is still crippling much of the world, an arms import company has determined there is a market for personal defense weapons. Crime is high, and those who can afford guns need them. You may submit one weapon, which you think will be ideal for home and personal defense. Being concealable in civilian clothes is desirable, but not strictly necessary. However, the weapons cannot be automatic or more than .50 caliber. The nation with the most ideal weapon will receive an expense credit.
1934 Battle Report
This year, Arstotzka spent their entire time developing the AS-AR34. It is the world's first true assault rifle, it is a select-fire rifle chambered in the new 7.62Ll intermediate round, and gives normal infantrymen a lightweight, easily controllable automatic weapon which can also be used for single fire. Moskurg had two designs this year. The M34 Viper landmine is designed to be stacked so the same mine can be used to target both personnel and materiel. The M2 Osprey rifle is a simple bolt-action .30 caliber rifle intended specifically for sharpshooters, most of its design time was actually spent on the Eagle MkII sight which goes on top. The Eagle MkII is still expensive, but is adjustable, and available in a 1.5x-4x and 4x-7x size. They also, by a miracle of metallurgy, developed a process to manufacture the Tiger Infantry Armor more cheaply, moving it down to Expensive, part of which involved training a number of expert blacksmiths who hand finish each set of armor.
Moskurg has an issue this year though: Their mines in the mountain haven't been able to steadily ship their ore, so Moskurg has only one ore this year. This means that all of their automatic weapons except the Cascade, M2 Brumby and MK47A become Expensive, reducing the availability of large machine guns and the M3 Sorraia. The recoilless rifles become Expensive, the B2 Destroyer artillery becomes Very Expensive, the flamethrower becomes expensive, the Bumblebee becomes expensive and the Model 4 Yellowjacket becomes Very Expensive. It isn't good. Unless you're Arstotzkan, in which case it's actually really good.
The war in the air turns well in Arstotzka's favor this year. Model 4 Yellowjacket fighters, and Bumblebee AA, become less common, as do Stallions and the like on the ground. This means that Arstotzka's heavy and light bombers suffer fewer threats, and Moskurg's bombers are not as well escorted. Consequently, Arstotzka gets much more air-to-air and air-to-ground kills than Moskurg this year.
In the jungle, Moskurg suffers a little from their shortage of heavy machine guns, flamethrowers, and recoilless rifles, and artillery, although these are all situational weapons. Arstotzka's AR34 is an ideal weapon for the area, its automatic fire is good for suppression and hitting targets concealed in bushes, but it can still be used as a normal rifle for engagements out to around 250 meters, filling the role of the AS-F14. Arstotzkan soldiers also usually trade in their Nosin Magants for AS-AR34's, as although the Nosin has superior range, that range is rarely taken advantage of when in the jungle and even then only with a scope. The MC16 is reserved particularly for soldiers diving into forts and trenches, and tank crews or paratroopers whose weight and space are limited. Moskurg begins deploying armored troops regularly, now that their Tiger armor is only Expensive. Rather than issue the armor to officers, Moskurg deploys select armored squads in each company, and sometimes gives the armor to emplacement gunners. For mobile troops, the armor is a significant hindrance when trying to navigate uneven terrain, mud and foliage. Squads sometimes will assault an Arstotzkan tank with a Hippo rifle, to some success, although if an armored soldier receives sustained armor piercing AS-1924 fire from close range, it is inevitable that a few bullets will find weak points in the armor or chance to pierce the chest piece. The armor is good defense against AR34 fire, though, as long as its user minimizes the visibility of their hands and feet. A few armored storm trooper squads are successful in defeating larger numbers of Arstotzkan soldiers with Model 1 service rifles or MK47As. Often, though, the lower mobility of these soldiers makes them vulnerable to more direct methods, like grenades. The armor tends to be used wherever an M3 Sorraia emplacement is, meaning Arstotzkans need to dedicate explosives (which means getting close or using a tank) or use a sniper to defeat machine gun nests. Moskurg also begins using their Viper mines. They are heavier than they need to be for stopping infantry, so their minefields are less large and dense than Arstotzka's. The fact that the only detonator is in the middle of the wide mine means sometimes an Arstotzkan soldier will step on the edge of one, realize it is a mine, and simply pick it up for their own use, and they're relatively easy to find by soldiers who are searching for mines. Stacked up for anti-tank use, they are fairly effective. One mine will of course obliterate a motorcycle, and three will destroy a tank. Arstotzka's AS-T25 and AS-T33 both have little bottom armor, so a mine can cause fuel and ammo explosions. Again though, stacking the mines is a slow and careful task, and three stackable mines are heavier than one mine with the same explosive. Moskurg sappers can't lay mines very quickly, and sometimes explode themselves bumping armed mines as they stack them. Not a lot of Arstotzkan tanks are actually destroyed by mines, but the fear of it slows their advances. Neither side makes progress this turn, although battles measurably favor Arstotzka. (2/4)
In the mountains, Moskurg issues officers M2 Ospreys with Eagle Sight MkII scopes. These adjustable, longer range scopes give enough of an advantage to Moskurg snipers to equal the natural skill of Arstotzka's patient snipers. The Osprey affords somewhat better grouping than the Model 1 rifle, but most soldiers prefer the Model 1 because it is lighter and can be fired faster. Land mines are of limited use in the mountains, but a few gun emplacements are issued Tiger Infantry Armors. The armored soldiers are much more difficult to remove from their position than those in regular uniforms, buying more time for Moskurg snipers to engage Arstotzkan ones. However, Moskurg soldiers suffer from the shortage of M3 Sorraias, as their range was superior to the M2 Brumby most squads currently use. Most Arstotzkan soldiers don't adopt the AS-AR34 here, because long range engagements are common. Some AS-F14 users take the new AR34, where it performs well, it is more mobile than the AS-1924 for ambush purposes. The MK47A fills a similar role, although it is significantly heavier than the AR34 and not select fire, it is at least cheap. T2 Breakers, still Very Expensive, are used as mobile emplacements and take concentrated effort for Arstotzkan troops to defeat, although they're not very efficient as infantry fighting vehicles. Moskurg manages to prevent Arstotzka from occupying the mines, but they aren't really using them themselves. (Arstotzka 3/4)
In the desert, Moskurg's machine gun, artillery and aircraft shortage is the most pronounced. There are fewer B2 Destroyers, and they are often targeted by bombers, so Arstotzka sometimes outranges Moskurg in terms of artillery even though it would normally be the other way around. The Bumblebees and Recoilles Rifles of both kinds are Expensive, so Moskurg anti-armor capabilities are less ubiquitous. Moskurg does now have armored soldiers, who defend strongholds above and below ground. In machine gun emplacements, they help but are targets for tanks and snipers. Underground, they are very difficult for Arstotzkan soldiers to kill, since the armor is mostly immune to AR34 fire and quite immune to MC16's- an armored soldier has the luxury of aiming for center mass, while their opponent does not. When they are killed, it is usually by grenades. They are also often wounded instead of killed, by being shot in the extremities, and may be pulled to safety, or just as likely, gutted on the floor by Arstotzkan knives. However, the point is that armored soldiers are always on the defensive, the Arstotzkan armored and airborne war machine pushes inexorably forward- although this year Arstotzkan bombers are flying at the end of their range. Moskurg strong points are encircled and cut off before being defeated, and although there are some cave systems which are incredibly defensible, these are simply besieged. In what was named the Husayn Caverns, which once held a hidden force of five hundred soldiers and a dozen tanks, there are still a hundred soldiers who have barricaded the entrance and remained for ten months after Arstotzka took the surrounding area. Arstotzka gains ground (2/4). If they advance next year, it will be onto the fertile ground surrounding Moskurg's capitol, a mix of barley fields and villages, as well as dense dusty urban areas, the pride of Moskurg, where the streets are lined with five story buildings.
In those very streets of Moskurg's capitol now, Arstotzkan secret agent Fried Potato jumps from a window out of Taricus' office in the Engineering Bureau, and lands in the dusty street. Alarms are blaring from the building as he runs into an alley and pulls bags off a pile of trash, revealing the place he concealed his trusty AS-M17 motorcycle. It is no ordinary M17, but his own custom turbo-charged bike. He roars out into the street, there are bursts of automatic gunfire from behind him, Moskurg constables on horses. He leaves them in the dust, but is followed by a blue police Tiger truck through the streets. It smashes through fruit stands and small obstacles that line the streets, but is still gaining. Fried Potato has one more trick though- a pair of rocket motors tied to the side of the bike. He ignites them with a switch, and breaks records though the streets, into a field, and ramps off a broken box across a small canal. He carries in his coat the plans for manufacturing Tiger Infantry Armor and its manganese alloy (although not the blacksmithing expertise that makes it cheap to manufacture).
Moskurg secret agent Kingsnake sneaks unseen through Arstotzka's design offices- conveniently, there's some commotion in another part of the building, it sounds like somebody shot out a window. He pulls open a file cabinet labeled INDICES, and flicks through a set of index cards, to find one that says "AS-RPG28: See room B13. Glory to Arstotzka." Musing about the amount of ink that must be wasted each year ending every document that way, he slinks downstairs to the basement and enters room 13. It is chock full of strange shaped rocket prototypes, RPG launcher prototypes, piles of tubing, piles of explosive material, chemicals for mixing rocket propellant, tools, half-assembled warheads and more, all lit by one flickering bulb powered by a sparking wire going across the floor through a puddle of water. In the very back, on a table, is a set of documents. It takes him a minute to step carefully through the room, grab the folder, and begin stepping back, when he slips in the puddle, gets shocked, and falls against a table. Some unidentified object starts hissing and emitting sparks, to which Kingsnake sprints out of the room. The hallway outside is filling with smoke, when he realizes he hasn't got the plans. But someone is coming downstairs! Agent Kingsnake hides in a broom closet, to hear two voices speaking. "Aha! I knew it was coming from the rocket room! I keep telling you, that's a huge safety hazard." "Yeah, we just lock it whenever it starts smoking. Come on, we have work to do." Surely enough, the door is locked afterwards, and Kingsnake is forced to retreat empty handed.
You may now begin designing for 1935.
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 04:40:16 am
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 04:40:47 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 04:49:17 am
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 04:51:46 am
our agent was awesome this year, and shows the superiority of our land vehicles. Even though the motorcycle was designed in 1917.
of course this was a custom bike, but it only shows the mechanical prowess and tinkering habits of Arstotzka citizens.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 04:55:41 am
Oh well, this has long been a game of dragging out our demise for as long as possible anyway.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 04:57:17 am
I mean, Moskurg got the improvement we made to our tank engines when they stole that design. A matter of rolls?
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 04:59:09 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 05:00:17 am
But also the wastefulness of ink and the massive deathtrap that is a load of armed explosives in the basement.The use of ink shows how much ink we have which in turn is a sign of Arstotzka's prosperity. The basement was specifically designed as a counter-measure to deter incompetent Moskurg spies, which it succeeded in doing. This is also a testament to the Patience of Arstotzkans who know intrinsically to be careful and so don't need thinks like "safety and regulations".
Glory to Arstotzka.
As always, Sensei, you succeed in making absolutely hilarious espionage actions. There is no other GM that has made me laugh so hard as you and so consistently. It truly is a pleasure.
Just remember that our T33s become Expensive next year due to Nazi Ore.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 05:02:15 am
Killing Moskurger armed with terrible, oversized rifles... Just like old time!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 05:03:40 am
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 05:06:03 am
Why did we not get the improvement?
because the kind of cheapening they used is in some ways a pre-industrial process, requiring not just properly designed machines, but an high degree of personal competence and skill from a group of purposefully trained blacksmiths. We stole the designs, but we can't steal their blacksmiths. We would need to train our own, or try something else.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 05:07:04 am
Anyway, from their description:
Quote
The breastplate and taces will stop rifle bullets at all but very close range. AP Horsekillers easily penetrate at medium range.
So their larger caliber bullets are good for this.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 05:27:17 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 05:31:35 am
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 05:33:01 am
Post by: Haspen on September 11, 2015, 05:34:04 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 05:35:21 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 05:37:54 am
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 05:41:48 am
:P
Post by: evilcherry on September 11, 2015, 05:42:42 am
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 05:44:07 am
Maybe that could be a follow up game? Forenia vs nazi world.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 05:44:38 am
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 05:45:48 am
Sensei once again when will your college start? Should we just call it a day (given we are just hanging on and unlocking achievements)?Ten days, yet. Since Moskurg didn't get the ore this turn, yeah, it's probably a foregone conclusion. It could be entertaining to play it out, nonetheless...
If you don't want to drag it out, you should make a treaty. ;)
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 05:48:05 am
If hitler starts being too dangerous, united forenia can just join the war. Nobody can compete with our military technology.Indeed. Once WWII starts, Forenia will simply enter the war and save the world, earning itself +5 Glory.
Maybe that could be a follow up game? Forenia vs nazi world.
An epilogue might be enough to do it. Either that or it can be us versus the GM.
When WW2 starts, we will give the ARs to every allied nation. In bulk.Alternatively, we could just sell it cheaply to all the Allies. They get a weapon to fight the Germans and we can fund another research centre. Just imagine what we could do with three* of them!
*The third comes from the one we stole from Moskurg.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 05:52:38 am
Quote from: Proposed treaty
All military actions of Arstotzka and Moskurg must cease and desist immediately.
All members of each nation must form a large circle in the centre of the plains.
The weapons design teams of each nation must then partake in a bare-knuckle boxing team fight. Last team standing wins the war.
If Arstrotzka wins, all Moskurg nationals must be treated as equals and integrated peacefully into a united Forenia.
If Moskurg wins, all Arstrotzka nationals must be treated as equals and integrated peacefully into a united Forenia.
The flag of Forenia will be that of the winning nation.
There will be absolutely no mention of the fact that Arstotzka would have won the war.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 05:57:55 am
All research plans of Moskurg will be preserved for the use of united forenia (no destroying!).
edit: forgot the most important, not negotiable part of the treaty: United forenia will use the metric system. Imperial measurements will be obsoleted.
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 06:04:03 am
edit: forgot the most important, not negotiable part of the treaty: United forenia will use the metric system. Imperial measurements will be obsoleted.(https://media.giphy.com/media/kVVKVq4KFqMhy/giphy.gif)
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 06:04:26 am
The flag of forenia will be a joint flag, with Arstotzka symbols being prominent.These seem fair.
All research plans of Moskurg will be preserved for the use of united forenia (no destroying!).
edit: forgot the most important, not negotiable part of the treaty: United forenia will use the metric system. Imperial measurements will be obsoleted.Except for pints of milk/beer, feet and inches for measuring people and miles for travel distance.
Post by: evilcherry on September 11, 2015, 06:06:09 am
more like, the Moskurg high command is exiled due to treason of united forenia. All moskurg citizens are given equal citizenship in the forenian nation. All soldiers will be allowed to go back to their families. The flag of forenia will be a joint flag, with Arstotzka symbols being prominent.1. There is no treason. Exile so we cannot stir up anything yes, but that is not treason.
All research plans of Moskurg will be preserved for the use of united forenia (no destroying!).
edit: forgot the most important, not negotiable part of the treaty: United forenia will use the metric system. Imperial measurements will be obsoleted.
2. Agreed.
3. Agreed.
4. There is very little to argue on. Tigers and stars are very eye-catching symbols. We can do a Tudor Rose.
5. Agreed, definitely.
6. Rather say, both Imperial and Metric systems are to be used. All measurements in the future must be given in both units.
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 06:09:42 am
1. There is no treason. Exile so we cannot stir up anything yes, but that is not treason.For the record, you guys are the engineers, not High Command.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 06:10:09 am
Feet and inches may be used in common conversation, but all official documents will use meters. You are granted 10 years of double use (as in, both feet and meters are written) to get used. miles are unacceptable.
@evilcherry: 'We'? you aren't the high command. You are the research team. the high command is the bunch of military brass commanding this insurrection against Forenia. Also known as scapegoats for the whole mess, so that Arstotzka-forenia citizens are satisfied and stop demanding Moskurg blood. Of course calling it treason requires a bit of retroactive thinking and logical somersaults.
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 06:12:15 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 06:13:10 am
Edit: If you'll excuse me, I'll be hiding in a closet with a Tiger Infantry Armor and a Horsekiller while the secret police come after me.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 06:14:02 am
Post by: Haspen on September 11, 2015, 06:19:05 am
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 06:19:24 am
Quote from: United Forenian Peace Treaty
- Moskurg High Command is exiled from Forenia
- All Prisoners of War are immediately released and assistance provided to return home
- Members of both nations are now officially United Forenian Citizens
- Moskurg and Arstotzka as no longer considered independent states, but constituent regions under the flag of United Forenia
- All official measurements are hence forth to be in metric, with a ten year period of double use to ease transition
- The only exception to part five is the legal sale of alcoholic beverages in licensed drinking establishments
- The United Forenian Flag main theme is to be a single tiger and several stars (concept art pending)
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 06:20:23 am
And the secret state police comes murder you all in middle of preparations. THE END :PTHEY'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE! OR, PREFERABLY, WILL NEVER TAKE ME DEAD EITHER!
Post by: tryrar on September 11, 2015, 06:22:54 am
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 06:24:46 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 06:25:20 am
I'll agree that we're pretty much done here since Moskurg can't really field anything worth a damn(unless they start making things out of wood :P). I gotta say, looking back I think what really clinched it for us was when we managed to take the plains and prevent you guys from kicking us out, while conversely we prevented you from being able to exploit the jungle that one time you actually managed to take it.The craziest thing is that we actually had to argue in favour of both holding the Plains and kicking you out of the Jungle. There were some on our side saying it was unnecessary.
United Forenia flag:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 06:31:06 am
the time in which we were more threatened in the plains was when they had a tank I think, but I can't remember if that was also the time they took the jungle.
we solved that by tanks however, so I guess that isn't it. I suppose it is when we used the expense credit on SMG?
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 06:32:15 am
I'll agree that we're pretty much done here since Moskurg can't really field anything worth a damn(unless they start making things out of wood :P). I gotta say, looking back I think what really clinched it for us was when we managed to take the plains and prevent you guys from kicking us out, while conversely we prevented you from being able to exploit the jungle that one time you actually managed to take it.Yeah, based on this, I feel like I didn't balance things too badly. Arstotzka got some strong early momentum from taking the plains, but there were a couple spots where Moskurg almost really turned it around- but not quite, as it would happen. Moskurg once almost broke Arstotzka's hold on the plains, and once almost got a good hold on the jungle, but both times IIRC they kinda split their focus, taking their success for granted and focusing on making designs for the other front where they weren't doing as well. Thus they didn't manage to change the resource advantage.
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 06:34:48 am
what were the arguments used against both holding plains and kicking out of jungle? It has been so long I can't remember.When we were being pushed back into the Plains, some were arguing that we should just try to capture the Mountains. When Moskurg captured the Jungle, some were in favour of continuing our push into the Desert.
Yeah, that's exactly what happened. If Moskurg had just decided to press their advantages when they had them, the war would've remained a stalemate.I'll agree that we're pretty much done here since Moskurg can't really field anything worth a damn(unless they start making things out of wood :P). I gotta say, looking back I think what really clinched it for us was when we managed to take the plains and prevent you guys from kicking us out, while conversely we prevented you from being able to exploit the jungle that one time you actually managed to take it.Yeah, based on this, I feel like I didn't balance things too badly. Arstotzka got some strong early momentum from taking the plains, but there were a couple spots where Moskurg almost really turned it around- but not quite, as it would happen. Moskurg once almost broke Arstotzka's hold on the plains, and once almost got a good hold on the jungle, but both times IIRC they kinda split their focus, taking their success for granted and focusing on making designs for the other front where they weren't doing as well. Thus they didn't manage to change the resource advantage.
EDIT: Considering we're stalled in the Mountains and Jungle, Moskurg might've actually been the ones winning the war instead of Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 06:44:04 am
I was surprised when they designed the sorrraia light machinegun, out of all things. The cascade I can see, it helps in trenches. but considering we would obviously try to fix our tank, wasting time on a light machinegun seemed an odd effort.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 06:44:32 am
what were the arguments used against both holding plains and kicking out of jungle? It has been so long I can't remember.When we were being pushed back into the Plains, some were arguing that we should just try to capture the Mountains. When Moskurg captured the Jungle, some were in favour of continuing our push into the Desert.
Looking these up, but I know that for the "moskurg capture jungle, just continue push into desert" most, if not all, of the suggestions where for autocannon-armed scout cars, which turned the tide there rather well.
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 06:51:20 am
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 06:53:36 am
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 07:02:05 am
Another good idea for future game might be to require logisitc points to advance beyond a the middle provinces, counteracting the advantage the winning side gets from potentially more resources.
Anyway, I think we should summarily shoot andrea before he manages to loose the war by treaty. Seriously, Arstotzka being just another part of a new "Greater Forenia"? Our glorious flag next to the rag Moskurg use? No Tiger extermination campaign? No reparations for the untold misery Arstotzka had to suffer (like housing smelly Moskurg POW?
Is that seriously what we fought for?
Post by: Aseaheru on September 11, 2015, 07:24:43 am
-ninja edits, unnoticed for 30min-
Sheb, dont be nasty.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 07:26:26 am
Also yes, at the time the effect of taking the desert wasn't that defined I think.
Kashyyk's treaty seems fine. considering this is an annexation war ( or, rather, reunification under our rightful rule) most of those points we would have to do anyway.
Also, I should note that I am currently wearing the prototype of our newly acquired tiger armor. ( or IP-IA-35)
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 07:34:24 am
Sheb, dont be nasty.He's just being in-character. I've said much worse without criticism.
Just for the record, I'm of the belief that once Arstotzka conquers Moskurg, it should be known that the continent of Forenia is ruled by the country of Arstotzka. There will be no pseudo-alliance or changing of names. It will be Arstotzka and only Arstotzka. Glory to Arstotzka.
I'm entirely against anything that's not an unconditional surrender on Moskurg's part. We fought too hard and too long to accept anything else, especially when we're just two zones away from total victory.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 07:35:33 am
2) All Moskurg armed forces will be disbanded.
3) Moskurg High Command will be shot for treason. If possible, the Arstotzkan high command will be dressed up in Moskurger uniforms and shot too.
4) Tigers will be exterminated.
5) A ten year phasing in period will take place, which is the time needed to turns Moskurger into proud Arstotzkan citizens.
6) As reparation far all the salt Arstotzka had to use during the war, every Moskurg male aged between 18 and 50 will have to provide one year of labor in the salt mines over the next 10 years.
7) The imperial system will be banned all over Forenia, except for ordering pints in bar.
8) All Moskurger alcoholic drink will be banned, to be replaced by 5 Star Vodka. Feel free to use your pint on that.
9) Moskurg will recognize it stole the Cascade patent and repay the value of the royalties to the Arstotzkan treasury.
Post by: Ghazkull on September 11, 2015, 07:37:24 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 07:38:33 am
Wait we never used the bloody imperial system.Look at your technology list.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 07:39:40 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 07:42:35 am
1) Artotzka might be renamed Greater Arstotzka (Or AS-C-35)1. There is nothing greater than Arstotzka! To call anything Greater Arstotzka is to imply current Arstotzka can be lesser to anything! It shall be forever called Arstotzka! Glory to Arstotzka!
3) If possible, the Arstotzkan high command will be dressed up in Moskurger uniforms and shot too.
4) Tigers will be exterminated.
6) As reparation far all the salt Arstotzka had to use during the war, every Moskurg male aged between 18 and 50 will have to provide one year of labor in the salt mines over the next 10 years.
7) The imperial system will be banned all over Forenia, except for ordering pints in bar.
8) All Moskurger alcoholic drink will be banned, to be replaced by 5 Star Vodka. Feel free to use your pint on that.
3. I am against the killing of Arstotzka's High Command. Despite some mistakes they've made, they have worked for over two decades in ensuring Arstotzka's victory. They organised soldiers to be armed with weapons, generals to take objectives, and the trains to run on time. They've done Arstotzka proud.
4. Forenia is an island continent. The tigers that exist here are likely a unique species. Instead, Arstotzka should make them a protected species, unlike Moskurg who eats them, imprisons them for show, and does unsavory things with them.
6. Slavery is bad so no.
7. The imperial system will be banned completely. Pints will likewise be abolished. Once the imperial system has a foothold, it spreads like a disease. It must be completely cut out.
8. Those who were formally Moskurg should wait for 10 years before they can have the luxury of 5 Star Vodka. Moskurg should continue to be allowed to drink their own drinks, if only to prevent rebellion.
Aside from those points, I agree with the treaty.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 07:49:50 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 08:04:12 am
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 08:08:33 am
I mean, if you Arstotzkans are gonna try and push for an unconditional surrender, we could just keep killing a bunch of people. Especially because getting any sort of treaty in the first place requires us to stick our necks waaaaay out personally. We could just hold a guerrilla revolution, and the Moskurg citizens would certainly support us. Tigers released in the capital, sudden flamethrower arson, that sort of thing.Sure, giving Arstotzka an excuse to level the place is totally the logical thing to do. We still get all the resources of the island and Moskurg's technology so why should we care? Honestly, Moskurg has a lot more to lose than Arstotzka if they start getting uppity.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 08:13:09 am
Besides, we're not alone in the world. Should you try to raze Moskurg, perhaps the other nations of the world would take interest in our plight... I hear the Brits were pretty sour about the whole colony thing.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 08:14:18 am
then, I think some concessions are in orderto keep peace after the war: pints in bars, transition period from imperial to metric, universal citizenship. Arstotzka dominance can be enforced in other fields, such as political organization. But we need to frame this as a reunification to hope to rule the whole island. The old high command and some important figures can be used as scapegoats. If you want an execution, get a war hero or something.
And if the proposal I voted for wins , I totally want to fight another round :D
Post by: Playergamer on September 11, 2015, 08:18:53 am
Like, one man is created in the north of the island, one in the south, and they both walks towards the center. They get there at the same time, staring at each other, before simutaneously picking up rocks and trying to kill each other.
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 08:22:30 am
There's nothing stopping us from destroying the technology and/or some of the resources before you can get it if you're going to try to take them without OUR cooperationDo tell how you're going to destroy all the Oil and Ore deep within Forenia's crust. You might destroy the ore excavators and the oil pumps, but you can't destroy the resources themselves. As for your technology, it really isn't that great. We're about equal already, so missing out on it won't be that bad.
Besides, we're not alone in the world. Should you try to raze Moskurg, perhaps the other nations of the world would take interest in our plight... I hear the Brits were pretty sour about the whole colony thing.Something tells me the world is going to be very occupied with other stuff in the coming years. Besides, just look what happened to the Brits after they'd successfully conquered us.
you might find outright leveling us to be a very difficult task; you don't outclass us THAT much.Let's see, we have the entire well armed, well trained, and very experienced Arstotzkan army versus a bunch of Moskurg civilians with some outdated weapons. We win.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 08:25:35 am
on Arstotzka side, some exiles and executions might sate the thirst for blood.
I hope it works, but if it doesn't it will be much easier to genocide after our soldiers are in Moskurg disarmed roads. ( which they will be anyway in a couple of turns)
As for foreign nations intervening, they will soon be busy. And by the time WW2 ends, we will likely be able to match most of them. Think about it: an unified forenia might get twice the designs per turn! and we are already more advanced in some fields.( less in other, but that is what the double design is for)
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 08:31:59 am
Quote from: Andres
Do tell how you're going to destroy all the Oil and Ore deep within Forenia's crust. You might destroy the ore excavators and the oil pumps, but you can't destroy the resources themselves. As for your technology, it really isn't that great. We're about equal already, so missing out on it won't be that bad.So first you make a big deal of how Moskurger technology is one of the prizes you'll get and now it's not that bad to lose it? Sounds like sour grapes to meeeee.
Quote from: Andres
Let's see, we have the entire well armed, well trained, and very experienced Arstotzkan army versus a bunch of Moskurg civilians with some outdated weapons. We win.You are making the mistake of assuming conventional warfare. Plus it's not like you've completely wiped out our military, we've still got a significant army.
Besides, you can't refute the most important point here:
There's no downside for offering a mutually appreciable treaty for you, you'd get the technology we would otherwise destroy, and get a lot less post-war resistance from it.Surely you have that much self-interest?
Look... we may be of opposing nations, but we're both engineers, and we're probably all in some keel of danger from our High Commands now. We can fight, or we could not, but it increases all of our lifespans if we're not trying to fight basically everyone at once.
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 08:38:57 am
I only mentioned it because it's the only other thing of worth that Moskurg has. Aside from its few unique technologies and its resources, Moskurg is nothing but crap.Quote from: AndresDo tell how you're going to destroy all the Oil and Ore deep within Forenia's crust. You might destroy the ore excavators and the oil pumps, but you can't destroy the resources themselves. As for your technology, it really isn't that great. We're about equal already, so missing out on it won't be that bad.So first you make a big deal of how Moskurger technology is one of the prizes you'll get and now it's not that bad to lose it? Sounds like sour grapes to meeeee.
Moskurg and Arstotzka have been at war since time immemorial. Some post-war fighting and the temporary loss of a few non-essential technologies is a tiny price to pay for total victory.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 09:03:25 am
Post by: Taricus on September 11, 2015, 09:41:37 am
Eh, this list works. Besides, with WW2 coming up, I doubt the game will end until we end up having to storm berlin or tokyo or something. :PQuote from: United Forenian Peace Treaty
- Moskurg High Command is exiled from Forenia
- All Prisoners of War are immediately released and assistance provided to return home
- Members of both nations are now officially United Forenian Citizens
- Moskurg and Arstotzka as no longer considered independent states, but constituent regions under the flag of United Forenia
- All official measurements are hence forth to be in metric, with a ten year period of double use to ease transition
- The only exception to part five is the legal sale of alcoholic beverages in licensed drinking establishments
- The United Forenian Flag main theme is to be a single tiger and several stars (concept art pending)
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 09:45:01 am
The same could be said to you. Do you really want to see so much suffering rather than surrendering?Well, let's go over the ways this could end.
A. The war stalls out. High Command executes me unless I'm useful enough.
B. We surrender and I submit. I probably get executed anyway. If not, I have miserable pint-less existence.
C. A mutually beneficial peace deal is reached, and I don't get executed. I also get pints and tigers. You get technology and everyone prospers.
D. We surrender but we also carry on guerrilla warfare. I possibly have a fighting chance at staying alive for a while the remainder of my life is spent with glorious Moskurger culture.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 09:47:32 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 09:48:46 am
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 09:49:48 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 11, 2015, 09:51:37 am
learn to count in liters.Disgusting.
I do support the United Forenian peace treaty.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 09:53:13 am
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 09:55:12 am
How about a compromise: the pint is abolished, but all beer glass in what was Moskurg are to be 568 ml of countenance. (Or 473. Do you guys even know which pint you use?).
Post by: Kashyyk on September 11, 2015, 09:57:06 am
ninja-edit: It'd make more sense to just stick with pints for beverages.
Post by: Taricus on September 11, 2015, 09:57:33 am
Compromise on the pint isuue: All glasses have measurements in both pints and millilitres. Happy? :P
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 09:59:33 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 10:00:18 am
Post by: Taricus on September 11, 2015, 10:03:09 am
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 10:05:04 am
Post by: Taricus on September 11, 2015, 10:06:01 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 11, 2015, 10:23:42 am
How about the pint stays in use, but is slowly changed from 578 ml to 1000 ml over a ten-year period?Just define that at 578.
Sensei, I guess we no longer have the appetite to continue the 25-year-war. Just write up a grand finale for everyone.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 10:24:45 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 11, 2015, 10:29:23 am
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 11, 2015, 11:19:17 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 11, 2015, 11:30:04 am
Aaaah come on, are we really just gonna give up like that though? Moskurgers still hava lot in them, 'till the bitter end!((rather, its Sensei's college starting in a week and a half. Is it that hard to let the GM take a rest?))
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 11:37:46 am
A couple of turns might also be all the time we need to get your capital.
Post by: Kot on September 11, 2015, 11:42:58 am
Post by: Devastator on September 11, 2015, 11:48:10 am
No thanks to shading things pro-moskurg so much in the end, though. Losing 1/3 of the desert, and fighting in the capital, should have restricted our resources more already. It didn't need to be dragged out that long so we can continue our stream of incompetence for a couple more months.
Post by: Baffler on September 11, 2015, 01:40:19 pm
578ml is painful. Maybe 600ml or 550ml, or even 580ml, but not 578ml.
But a pint is, like, the perfect size. Half a liter is too small, but a full liter is too much at once (assuming Moskurg uses the British pint.)
Aaaah come on, are we really just gonna give up like that though? Moskurgers still hava lot in them, 'till the bitter end!
It's not over until Arstotzka flies that washed-out bar rag they call a banner over the burned out ruins of the last Moskurger emplacement. Or Sensei says it's over, whichever comes first.
Post by: Sheb on September 11, 2015, 01:45:16 pm
But a pint is, like, the perfect size. Half a liter is too small, but a full liter is too much at once (assuming Moskurg uses the British pint.)
Hehe, all this really make me feel like we're in 1984.
Post by: Devastator on September 11, 2015, 02:41:31 pm
It's not over until Arstotzka flies that washed-out bar rag they call a banner over the burned out ruins of the last Moskurger emplacement. Or Sensei says it's over, whichever comes first.
It's been over for about fifteen turns. It's just that the goalposts keep moving so that Arstotzka can continue having objectives to seize.
To be fair, we might have had a chance ten turns ago, but we managed to blow four consecutive actions for the loss, which sadly, is about normal performance for Team Moskurg.
Post by: Sensei on September 11, 2015, 04:49:48 pm
Oh my Armok, so emo. ;)It's not over until Arstotzka flies that washed-out bar rag they call a banner over the burned out ruins of the last Moskurger emplacement. Or Sensei says it's over, whichever comes first.
It's been over for about fifteen turns. It's just that the goalposts keep moving so that Arstotzka can continue having objectives to seize.
To be fair, we might have had a chance ten turns ago, but we managed to blow four consecutive actions for the loss, which sadly, is about normal performance for Team Moskurg.
Yeah, I did move the goalposts a bit, in Moskurg's favor, when I decided there was an extra buffer zone between capturing the plains, and moving towards Moskurg's capitol. However, I would have done this either way, I think. Otherwise capturing the plains would both give a faction more resources, AND access to their enemy's doorstep, which seems like too much at once. I like the idea of them having a bit more time to play around with those resources (and really need to take advantage of them, which took them a bit bu they ultimately did) before D-day. Or AS-D34, as Arstotzkan calendars call it.
I really liked the rebels too. This will probably disappoint you to hear, but the main reason for them not coming back in a meaningful way was, in order of importance A) the last few turns I've been getting out late and I didn't want to delay them by writing more stuff and B) logically it would probably screw Moskurg more and they were already on the defensive. I would bring them back now, even, but it would probably just constitute prolonging the game alot.
I won't be doing a big campaign where you guys conquer Berlin or Tokyo (or Washington), or Forenia goes to war with Tropico, or what have you. At least, not consecutively after this ends, I think the idea makes sense and is pretty cool. I'm going to run a simpler forum game once this is over. I still might run a sequel to this, but after a nice long break. If somebody else wants to do that, they can.
If Moskurg does want to make a conditional surrender rather than be conquered or be in for a very long, slow forum game if they somehow turn the tide, then the treaty will be signed after one more year of fighting, so you can still get to see whatever crazy designs you have in action. You might have to override High Command to do it though...
Post by: Kot on September 11, 2015, 05:19:57 pm
You might have to override High Command to do it though...So, we need to design something so glorious that they have a seizure.
Apparently that's what we're doing now, but shshshshs.
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 05:26:41 pm
Post by: Andres on September 11, 2015, 06:56:05 pm
Post by: andrea on September 11, 2015, 07:07:23 pm
Post by: Andres on September 12, 2015, 03:15:07 am
EDIT: Just thought of a really good and true phrase: Arstotzka is dankest while Moskurg is stankest.
Post by: Kot on September 12, 2015, 03:42:21 pm
EDIT: Just thought of a really good and true phrase: Arstotzka is dankest while Moskurg is stankest.(http://i.imgur.com/kaApWE1.png)
#soon
Post by: Tiruin on September 14, 2015, 12:01:20 am
I should totally make a drawing of Kot as if he's the Minister of Foreign Relations for Arstotska [ie Minister Cat].Spoiler: Kot {s}Propaganda{/s} (click to show/hide)
...One day ._.
Post by: Sensei on September 14, 2015, 07:01:30 am
Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on September 14, 2015, 07:02:06 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sensei on September 14, 2015, 07:03:46 am
Ships from both sides carrying sample weapons and designs were captured and scuttled by rebels, in AS-CV22's with the red-and-blue Rebel Union flag.
1935 Battle Report FINAL BATTLE REPORT
This turn will be taking a little different format than usual.
This year, both sides went all out with massive designs. Moskurg built The Death Ball, a 30-foot concrete and rebar boulder, with a gyro stabilizing system, rolling on two equally large steel wheels propelled by dozens of rockets in a circular arrangement. It can crush a tank, but is prone to going off course and can't really be moved once constructed. Arstotzka built the AS-ARAC-35, a massive portable runway project which turns a train into a temporary, mobile runway. It can store and refuel a small amount of planes at a time, with some difficulty, and there are only a few locations convenient to use one. Arstotzka also converted the stolen Tiger armor to metric measurements, which currently means it is Expensive and as readily available for Arstotzka as it is for Moskurg. Arstotzkan soldiers have been ordered to use the armor piecemeal as convenient, instead of necessarily saddling themselves with the whole thing.
Arstotzka spends their expense credit on the AS-T33, making it cheap. Ships full of steel arrive regularly, and tanks issue from the factories in a line like traffic on a city street. Moskurg uses their expense credit on The Death Ball, using truckloads of foreign cement and rebar to enact their twisted purposes.
The war in the air, like last year, is generally in Arstotzka's favor. However, deep in the central desert over Moskurg's capitol, Arstotzka deploys a severely reduced amount of airplanes, due to relying on a few AS-ARAC-35 installations as the only airstrips close enough. At a given time, only about three wings of planes can make a coordinated attack over Moskurg, which usually means a bomber and two or three escorts each. Fortunately for them, Moskurg has a shortage of Model 4 Yellowjacket fighters, and the Bumblebee AA is not totally ubiquitous. They are still outnumbered but due to the Model 2 hornet being a rather easy-to-shoot-down bomber, Arstotzka drops about as many bombs on targets as Moskurg.
On the ground, both sides have focused their forces entirely on the desert near Moskurg's capitol. The battle this year is greater than it has even been, men crowd the streets and fields, and there is a constant haze of smoke and dust that remains in the air for months on end until the Moskurg monsoon season. In Moskurg, the conscription process has disposed of such formalities as lists of names and military academies. If a man can fight (Moskurg High Command has stubborn policies about women), they are handed a gun and told to fight- or upon seen Arstotzkan soldiers approach their field, farmers and shepherds will take up decrepit Horsekiller rifles, tie the first strip of blue cloth they can find around their arm, and go to fight. Against this thorough resistance, Arstotzka begins similar aggressive conscription, rushing soldiers through training and pressing AR34 rifles into their hands. The war that was once spread across Forenia is now concentrated around Moskurg, and amplified two fold. Blood runs in rivulets through the streets, fields and desert. The scent of burning and rotting flesh can be smelled for leagues.
The majority of fighting is on the city borders, where a soldier might be in a wide open field or trench one hour and running from room to room in a three story building the next. Arstotzka's armored columns are ubiquitous, the AS-T33 outnumbers T2 Breaker tanks, and are not invulnerable but will typically win fights unless they're ambushed or significantly outmaneuvered. The battle through the desert itself is one of Moskurg constantly backing away from what became known as the Iron Tide, sniping what they could and running. Until Arstotzkan columns came in range of the city and villages, and saw... the boulders. At first they looked like huge bunkers. But they had wheels- maybe tanks with some kind of concrete armor? They one starts to move, rocket trails flare off of its great wheels. It's going faster, and faster, huge AS-T33 75mm cannons start firing and tear chunks of concrete off. A dozen tanks and their support crews are firing, rockets streak through the air. "HOLD THE LINE!" shouts an AS-T33 commander, over the din of battle. A shot breaks the left wheel off the Death Ball, and it spins off into an empty field- then moments later, the second one rushes upon the tank column, and crushes four AS-T33s, scatters a squadron of M17 cavalry and tumbles through a group of AS-MAT26 tank destroyers, wrecking most of them before collapsing in half at the end of its wake of destruction. A third Death Ball still sits on the outside of the little village, daring Arstotzka's army to come closer. The tank commander who ordered his men to hold to line looks at the huge rut in the ground behind him, and the twisted metal wreckage of a third of his subordinates. Then from the horizon, a .30 caliber bullet from an M2 Osprey sniper rifle kills him instantly. The group routs in panic.
A month later in another part of Moskurg's border, Arstozkan commanders have grown more wise to Moskurg's secret weapon. Death Ball fortifications -that is what they are, they are built at great effort and not moved, except to aim, until fired- are targeted from far away by venerable AS-1912 artillery and 75mm DT33 cannons on the AS-T33 tank. If either of the steel wheels are damaged, the entire Death Ball is compromised, and after several terrorizing incidents which faltered Arstotzka's Iron Tide, commanders have learned to aim for those. They are not entirely useless- they deter attack long enough for B2 Destroyer guns to lay down a lot of shots. In another border battle, the fundamental unreliability of the Death Ball comes to light. It was not unheard of for the Death Ball to go veering off course, but one desperate Moskurg defensive force fired their last death ball, with all the others having been rendered inoperable, only to watch in horror as it leaned on one damaged wheel, and perhaps with its gyroscope having failed, veered around and crushed a Moskurg bunker and a whole Destroyer battery into rubble. Officially, High Command says that damage from Arstotzkan tank rounds caused the disaster, but rumors spread of rebel sabotage.
Ultimately the fighting moved into the outer city. The fighting is once again taking place from street to street, room to room. By now Arstotzka has implemented their AS-ARAC-35 project. Four rail sites have been converted into uneven, somewhat dangerous iron airstrips, and host a total of five ARAC trains which vary a little in length. Landing on the narrow runway is a harrowing task, especially for AS-1931-HAFB bombers, so only Arstotzka's best and most glorious pilots are selected for the precious landing sites which will enable the Arstotzkan air force to strike at Moskurg's capitol directly. The first wave of aircraft consists only of AS-DB-HF-23 and AS-HF-32's to escort them, and are coordinated to fly overhead just as the first Arstotzkan forces enter the outer city for air support. On the ground the fighting is fierce. Arstotzkan soldiers mostly use the AS-AR34, selecting fire as range dictates, and benefiting from its small size and weight to clamber through debris. In a squad, there is often a soldier with an AS-1924 LMG or AS-1911 mortar for fire support, and officers will equip a scope to an AS-F14 for a weapon which compromises sharpshooting and the ability to defend oneself at medium range. In close combat, soldiers with support weapons use their AS-SP30. Some soldiers also make use of the silencer to kill as many enemies as possible in an ambush before being spotted. Squads will also often have one soldier carry an RPG or mines, and use grenades often. Special armored squads storm through buildings and favor the AS-AR34. They are countered by an equal quantity of armored, and fierce, Moskurg soldiers. What Moskurg lacks in hand grenades, they make up for in flame throwers. Most soldiers use a Model 1 Rifle or an MK47A, although armored stormtroopers sometimes prefer the original large caliber MK47- the M3 Sorraia isn't easy to operate while moving in armor, and the MK47 can blast a cowardly Arstotzkan through the wall he's hiding behind. Since the situation is desperate, more soldiers use the Hippo Recoilless Rifle than before, climbing to the tops of buildings and firing downwards at the top armor of Arstotzka's ubiquitous AS-T33 tanks. Their attempts at using mines to stop the tanks aren't successful though: on the cobblestone streets, it's difficult to pry a hole to stack mines, and a single Viper mine won't even track a tank, which leads to Arstotzka using their tanks for mine clearing. In close combat, the two nations are close to equally matched; Arstotzkans are better equipped in terms of large automatic weapons, and they have versatile grenades, but Moskurg is fierce, and puts flamethrowers and shotguns to good use. Sometimes Moskurg soldiers defending a building against Arstotzkan entry will simply run out of the building, block the doors or toss mines in front of them, and light the entire structure ablaze. Also, as Arstotzka's armored soldiers come to learn, metal armor provides no protection against a flamethrower. Arstotzka uses RPGs to assault T2 Breakers on occasion, but more often uses them to clear out a room from a distance. Because the Arstotzkan tanks outnumber Moskurg's by so much, Arstotzkan infantry mainly leave fighting armor to their own armor. Moskurg cavalry runs through the streets, hopping over rubble and issuing MK47A fire at anything that moves. Moskurg also has their snipers with the Eagle Sight MkII scope, able to equal Arstotzka's.
Major Anibal of the Moskurg army fired his Hippo into the side of an AS-T33's turret, from up above on the west side of the third floor of the Great South Library. It smokes for a moment, and the explodes outright as the ammo catches. He drops it on the ground in favor of his MK47A and makes short work of the tank's support team. An AS-1931-HAFB buzzes quietly, far overhead. There is a steady POOM-POOM-POOM over the din of battle from the small battery of Bumblebee guns in the courtyard. He watches with satisfaction as the HAFB's right engine bursts into flame and the crew parachutes out- he protected those guns. Then he spots another HAFB overhead, and picks up his radio set. "Bee team, have you got that other bomber?" No response, but the guns are still going, POOM-POOM-POOM. He looks down into the courtyard- another AS-T33 is approaching the courtyard entrance below him, and the Bumblebee guns have lowered to the ground to shoot at it. The tank's front armor blocks a shell, but then another glances on the turret, locking up the traverse. Another shell penetrates the turret, all before the tank can get more than one stray shot off. Good, at least they got it. But they need to get back to aiming at that bomber. Anibal grabbs his MK47A in one hand, and draggs his Hippo with the other to the west end of the building, above the other entrance to the courtyard. The two men he had stationed here have been shot by a fully armored Arstotzkan soldier. I'm spotted! Anibal rushes back around the corner, dropping his things on the floor, then loading the hippo and blindly firing it around the corner. He missed, but it didn't matter. The Arstotzkan pig is lying on the floor, struggle to back up, his legs wounded with shrapnel. Anibal beheads the soldier with his sword- a rightful execution. Then Anibal looks out the window over the east entrance to the courtyard. Four AS-T33s. Four tanks? Where are fucking coming from? POOM-POOM-CRASH. Before Anibal could even reload his Hippo, a 75mm Arstotzkan tank round decided to make friends with a few crates full of 3.6" flak rounds. A significant portion of the library collapses. For the first time in his life, Anibal ran.
Behind Arstotzkan lines, fierce fighting continues. Although far from the front, Moskurg soldiers seem to keep popping out of tunnels and harassing whatever kind of supply lines, repairs, or pre-victory buffets Arstotzka is attempting. The ARAC teams are working around the clock to keep as many planes as possible armed, fueled and airborne. One ARAC collapses, a single jack broke loose on a rainy night, depositing a HAFB on the right side of the runway. The pilot, scratched and bruised but not terribly injured, swears up and down he didn't hit the runway too hard. He is sent to the rear lines despite his protests. A week later, two ARAC's collapse on the same night. One resulted in an AS-HF-DB's payload of firebombs consuming multiple train cars, and the unfortunate pilot. Another stuck an AS-HF-32 into the entire week's rations. On both ARAC's, the jacks that failed are painted -with wet paint- in red and blue stripes.
Deep in Moskurg, fear is high. High Command has turned nearly every police officer into a soldier except their own personal guard, who watch the palace and turn away every plaintive citizen who wants to enter. Protests go unanswered in the streets. "END THE WAR" and "SIGN THE PEACE TREATY", proclaim red and blue posters not just in alleys, but on main streets. The rebels have got ahold of a high-powered broadcast station somewhere and their radio broadcasts are becoming impossible to drown out. The growth of rebellion looks like another sign that Moskurg is losing the war (though in Arstotzka, secret police spend time tearing down posters like "FREE THE PRISONERS" in the alleys, and firefighters carry pistols to shoot arsonists on the spot).
On September 14th, 1935, in the heart of Moskurg, air raid sirens blare. An AS-1931-HAFB and its AS-HF-32 escort fly overhead. A single payload of bombs scatters across streets, shops, factories and homes. One bomb hits close to palace, crumbling a wall, before a squadron of Yellowjackets shoots down the Arstotzkan aircraft. That wall of the palace which crumbled resulted in the release of the palace menagerie, with four tigers, a giraffe, an alligator, a dozen flamingos, a gazelle and other animals running into the streets. After this close call with airborne explosives, the Moskurg High Command finally swallowed their pride and entered peace negotiations with Arstotzka.
TO BE CONTINUED SHORTLY.
Post by: evilcherry on September 14, 2015, 07:15:10 am
Post by: Sheb on September 14, 2015, 07:16:06 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 07:20:51 am
Post by: Andres on September 14, 2015, 07:26:53 am
We're missing a more important milestone. The Swords were actually mentioned.They were mentioned way back near the beginning of the war in the trenches and the British colony.
Now that I think about it, a more fitting final mission for our agent would've been to kill Moskurg's Great Leader or destroy their Bureau of Cleverness. Oh well.
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 07:31:00 am
Awesome turn by the way, I am happy to see both ridiculous designs saw an use, and they actually were effective too! those boulders are way bigger than I thought if they can wreck that many tanks.
Post by: Sensei on September 14, 2015, 08:12:17 am
Sensei can you do something on how prominent figures from both sides of the war turn out after 25 years of fighting? Commanders, aces, or designers. Or how the world was changed by the war in an almost forgotten corner of the world.Oh, hehehehe... we're not quite on to the epilogue just yet. I meant it when I said I was updating shortly! Let's light the fuse on this rocket and see where it goes. ;)
The September Peace Summit
This is the culmination of everything you've fought for. For Arstotzka, this means victory, defeating Moskurg in war, and earning dominion over Forenia. For Moskurg, this means every Arstozkan killed, every inch ceded to Arstotzka that was paid for in blood, all the terror of your weapons which causes Arstotzka's high command to now sign a treaty instead of barging into the Moskurg palace and slaughtering its occupants. The Summit itself is held in the (miraculously intact) Foreign Embassy in Arstotzka-occupied-Moskurg, in the east part of the desert. The two armies have been in a tense ceasefire for weeks now (the September Peace Summit has dragged into November). Outside the embassy on one side is a Death Ball, pointed straight at the building, with a platoon of Moskurg soldiers and Breaker tanks and Destroyer cannons. Arstotzka has a similar force present, with AS-T33's and AS-1912 artillery, a whole platoon of soldiers with motorcycles and an ARAC that's only just been properly erected (it's where the rubble of a train station used to be). The two armies have barely interacted except to glare at eachother from a distance, and one impromptu tennis match which ended in bloodshed and nearly rekindled the war.
The actual peace treaty debate goes on behind closed doors, with the High Command of each nation arguing back and forth on fair terms. You can only hope that the treaty they come up with is reasonable. You weapon engineers have been permitted the use of some of the building's other rooms, where even now research continues in case things don't go well. You have been allowed to commingle, on the logic that unlike the actual soldiers, you're at least too smart to start a fight right now. However, communication has oft been limited to things like:
What are the costs and effects of mangalloy in terms of vehicle armour?
Just thought of a really good and true phrase: Arstotzka is dankest while Moskurg is stankest.
578ml is painful. Maybe 600ml or 550ml, or even 580ml, but not 578ml.
But a pint is, like, the perfect size. Half a liter is too small, but a full liter is too much at once.
How about the pint stays in use, but is slowly changed from 578 ml to 1000 ml over a ten-year period?
<Insert three weeks of engineers debating the nature of pints>
The great doors to the main debate room are guarded by the nations' two spies, Kingsnake and Fried Potato. They're supposed to keep everyone out, but they mostly seem concerned with watching each other- actually not a bad idea, you're pretty sure Kingsnake tried to poison Fried Potato's bottle of Five Star several times now. You have access to a radio too- it's a combative mix of propaganda from both sides, and rebel broadcasts.
Finally, after an agonizing wait, the doors open. Foreign diplomats, civilians, and soldiers from both sides are allowed to enter, as well as you, the engineers. The Glorious Leader of Arstotzka and the Heroic King of Moskurg are at the main podium, seen for the first time together. They speak in turn, and read out their speech. Everything they say is in a bold, commandy voice:
Being the council for the new nation of Arstotzka, we have seen fit the following accords:
One: The nation of Moskurg, and its people and holdings, shall become a part of the Glorious Nation of Arstotzka. Glory to Arstotzka!
Two: The High Command of Moskurg, and its palace, shall become members of the High Command of Arstotzka. The former King looks a little begrudging. The Glorious Leader elbows him, and the former king says, Glory to Arstotzka.
Three: The Soldiers taken as prisoners by Arstotzka, shall be recognized as criminals for fighting against the Glorious Nation of Arstotzka, and shall labor in the salt mines. Glory to Arstotzka!
Four: Soldiers still fighting for Moskurg, shall be conscripted immediately into the army of Arstotzka. Glory to Arstotzka!
At this point there are unhappy murmurs from the crowd. The two leaders whisper to each other for a moment, and nod.
Five: This has been a terrible war. Many suffered from the guns, bombs, tanks, artillery, fire and death. Many families have been torn asunder. You must be paid! Reparation must be paid! This seems to ease the crowd. The following parties shall be held responsible, the Guilty Parties, for the terrors of this war, and shall pay reparation to this bloodstained land. First, the Generals of each army, for leading men to their deaths in battle, and for conspiring to kill not only the soldiers, but civilians and, dare I say it, High Command of each army! A few murmurs in the crowd again. You see something happening in the side of the room- there's people moving. Soldiers. They're Arstotzkan soldiers, but with bits of blue cloth tied about their arms and hats. Moskurg soldiers too, with extra bits of red cloth added to their uniform. What are they doing? Second, the Spies of each nation shall be held guilty, for their theft and sabotage, their burning of factories, their stealing of patented submachine guns, and murder outside of the battlefield! Say, there's Agent Fried Fish and Agent Kingsnake with those unusually adorned soldiers. That was fast. Third, and most heinous, the final guilty party! These are the people, widows, responsible for your husbands being burned alive! These are the people, soldiers, responsible for your comrades falling to their deaths from the sky! These are the people, all of you who are crippled, responsible for your legs being blown out form under your armor! The Weapons Engineers of each nation are named a Guilty Party. That group of soldiers is moving close to the stage. Each Guilty Party shall you reparation- with their LIVES! They are to be executed by sunset this day, by firing squad! The Former King whispers in the Glorious Leader's ear. No, not by firing squads, by the The Ball of Death! Now soldiers, seize them!
As the leaders finish their speech, another voice calls out. It's from the group of soldiers with mismatched colors (that group seems to have gotten bigger while you weren't looking, or a bunch of people in the room have now mismatched their uniforms). Wait, you recognize that man- but didn't the newspaper say he was executed? It's a Moskurg rebel, formerly Lieutenant Otto! "FOR THE REVOLUTION!" He throws a bottle of Five Star with a burning rag onto the stage, lighting the curtains ablaze. The two Leaders run back stage, their personal bodyguards in neat black suits draw MC16A's. Suddenly the entire room full of people is a mess of fire, gunshots, and people shouting- "For Arstotzka!" "For Moskurg!" "For the Rebellion!" If nothing else, it gives you a chance to escape.
All of you rush into the lobby. It's time to end this once and for all. In your temporary office at the embassy, each of you have one unique prototype weapon/equipment. It's the end of designing, waiting for high command to approve, and going into production.
TO ACT, CHOOSE THE FOLLOWING:
1: What is your unique equipment? Provide a short description. I reserve the right to roll a die regarding whether it works as intended. If your equipment needs a crew, hope that they're loyal.
2: Who are you fighting for? Will you join the rebellion? Or are you not done fighting your nation's war? Or are you just going to try to escape Forenia?
3: What do you attempt to do? Chase after the traitorous High Commanders? Circle around the building? Just start shooting people you don't like?
Thus begins the Battle of the Embassy. You will all act individually, in this thread, until it concludes. The current situation is a battle between Those loyal to High Command, the Rebellion, and Nationalists from both sides. If you want, feel free to argue with other players why they should join your side.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 08:19:46 am
Well yes, that's one way to protect the patents.
Post by: Andres on September 14, 2015, 08:24:31 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 14, 2015, 08:44:06 am
When you copy the MK-47's breech design and upscale that for a Stallion. You got the firepower if you have enough .600 rounds.
You! Shall! Not! Pass! Orararararararararara!
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 08:49:25 am
I have two priorities: Survival, and then the imperial system. Specifically, I want to get out of Forenian to save my own skin and then move out to another country that will use my services and NOT try to execute me. America, probably: they use the imperial system, and their gun laws ensure I'll keep my Horsekillers.
I intend to use the weakest link in the guards to escape the Embassy. Specifically, I want to find the least guarded point of escape (including thin walls) and absolutely brute force my way through by storming it with my armor. (Horsekillering my own entrance through something if I have to). Then I'm just going to make a journey to the coast and out, commandeering a Tiger truck f I have to or something.
Post by: tryrar on September 14, 2015, 08:50:15 am
Post by: Funk on September 14, 2015, 08:53:57 am
Arstotzka Rocket Thunder Pistol!
An attempt at mixing the explosive power of an rpg with the small size of a pistol.
A over sized AS-SP30 that fires small 15x50mm grenade tipped rockets.
This is madness! I must escape forenia too tell others of the glory of Arstotzka!
Run away, I'll climb out the window and try to reach my motorcycle and make a run to the air port/dock/ where ever any one has a crazy vehicle stashed.
If anyone wants to come with me that's fine.
And if any of those traitors try and stop me then i'll show them the power of the of the Rocket Thunder Pistol.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 08:56:10 am
Post by: Kashyyk on September 14, 2015, 09:10:06 am
My mission: Kill High Command. Their 'guilty parties' were all following the orders of High Command. As such, it is High Command who is guilty. I will ally myself with anyone who will help me with my mission, but I will not be joining their power struggle. After they're dead. I then stay on Forenia, see what happens. Maybe design some stuff.
If we're going the whole hog, I've also got Tiger Armour and as many Arstotzkan grenades as I could scrounge.
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 09:15:05 am
well...
I'll accept anyone.
Funk gets a spot, as long as I get a spot in his motorcycle's sidecar.
Liable to change if I get a better idea or we agree to corwn ourselves kings of forenia.
Post by: Elephant Parade on September 14, 2015, 09:26:40 am
Post by: Playergamer on September 14, 2015, 09:27:38 am
My priorities: Kill the Glorious Leader, and any Arsetotzkans who stand in my way! Moskurg reigns supreme!
Begin to follow the Glorious Leader, spraying my Waterfall at any Arsetotzkan who gets in the way.
Post by: Funk on September 14, 2015, 09:29:00 am
Funk gets a spot, as long as I get a spot in his motorcycle's sidecar.That's a deal.
Liable to change if I get a better idea or we agree to corwn ourselves kings of forenia.Now how would we do that? the traitors will just level the building if we hang around proclaiming ourselves kings.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 09:29:54 am
XP-ARAC-AT
A modified version of the ARAC designed for operation closer to combat lines. The ARACAT is significantly smaller, powered by diesel in addition to steam, and armored with thick Manganese steel. The runway on the top has been shortened dramatically, replaced by a steam and rocket powered catapult system (recovery was not considered an issue, and is hence no longer possible). The space that freed up has been filled with weaponry, include 4 3*75mm batteries, and plentiful auto cannon weaponry, as well as storage carriages to transport tanks or other vehicles.
Because really, why would an ARAC present at the meeting. It's a long range support unit.
Get in the ARACAT, assert loyalty of the troops there, and escape. Given the likelihood that high command will be death by this point, attempt to restore the chain of command, and prevent the nations from decaying in chaos.
My priorities: Kill the Glorious Leader, and any Arsetotzkans who stand in my way! Moskurg reigns supreme!You do recognize the Moskurgian leader just ordered you killed, right?
Post by: Playergamer on September 14, 2015, 09:33:19 am
Post by: Sheb on September 14, 2015, 09:42:02 am
So the Moskurg King is now part of the Arstotzka High Command and should be executed too?
XP-T-35C
A new tank prototype optimised for urban warfare. It sport thick manganese armor with slats on all side (Including the top, no need to go fast in cities), a T-33 75 mm gun and a coaxial MG-1924 on the turret and two smaller turrets on oppostie corner each sporting an AC-18 and a MG-1924 to cover all corners.
Protect the XP-ARAC-AT from all comers.
Post by: Playergamer on September 14, 2015, 09:47:56 am
Also, tryrar, no way you have a pocket nuke. Otto Hahn only split the atom in 1938. Until that, nuclear weapons were just a dream.
Post by: Kot on September 14, 2015, 09:51:02 am
It's a rocket. A rocket with huge engines, huge fuel tanks, huge oxygen tanks, nice and cozy landing pod, infinite stock of Arstotzkan Five-Star and food, modified IA35 to be useable in space, lot's of red and gold paint and bunch of Arstotzkan flags. Oh, and a high-power radio.
I want to go to space ASAP, land on the moon and plant Arstotzkan flags everywhere, go around for a while and possibly paint a huge Arstotzkan flag on the surface and writing down some genius ideas in a notebook in spare time. Possibly set up an border check point. Possibly continue to invent stuff. Call for help maybe.
GLORY!
ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
EDIT:
I might get some rocket-club members on the way out. Prefferably attractive females. Maybe someone else if they bring me something useful.
EDIT2: Did I mention it's launchpad (a huge cannon) is disguised as an observatory?
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 09:52:41 am
Any other survival-minded, self-interested folks want to help me storm my way out of the building?
Post by: Funk on September 14, 2015, 10:10:03 am
I knew they'd try to execute me, I knew it! WELL LET'S SEE YOU TRY THAT NOW!Im with you on getting out of the building, if can you ride pillion then andrea has a mini sub.
Any other survival-minded, self-interested folks want to help me storm my way out of the building?
Right so it's
Escape party: andrea(mini sub), Funk(Rocket Thunder Pistol!), Powder Miner(Rabid Tiger Armour)
To space!: Kot(AS-SS1935X rocket)
Last stand: evilcherry(MK-Stallion .60), tryrar?(pocket nuke?)
Killing the high command: Playergamer(Waterfall SMG), Kashyyk(MM-12 Shotgun)
Unknown plans: 10ebbor10(XP-ARAC-AT land dreadnought?,) Sheb(XP-T-35C urban warfare tank)
Post by: Ghazkull on September 14, 2015, 10:14:14 am
an imporved Model of the Moskurgian Flamethrower, can also be loaded with chemicals. plated with Manganese alloy use din Tiger Armours to ensure that it cannot explode. Has a secret switch which will let it explode if needed.
also im wearing Tiger Armour, because why the hell not?
I will join the Rebellion, enough of this nonsense, Death to the High Command, with their madcap schemes, death to both leaders, Hail Forenia!
Burn everyone opposed ot the Rebellion, except for that guy with the nuke just keep away from him
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 10:54:52 am
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 11:27:00 am
Post by: Sheb on September 14, 2015, 11:36:56 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 11:38:17 am
Post by: Devastator on September 14, 2015, 11:42:39 am
Goal is to fight to the perimeter, and side with the Moskurg loyalists. That's the only side I fought for, anyway. Shoot those rebels, and those traitorous high commanders, if they don't surrender. Kill anyone who fights back. If engineers want to escape, let the cowards go, but look at them with disdain, especially those moskurgs running from the fate their own incompetence got them into.
Post by: evilcherry on September 14, 2015, 11:53:43 am
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 11:56:20 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 14, 2015, 12:00:29 pm
TO ACT, CHOOSE THE FOLLOWING:>_>
1: What is your unique equipment? Provide a short description. I reserve the right to roll a die regarding whether it works as intended. If your equipment needs a crew, hope that they're loyal.
2: Who are you fighting for? Will you join the rebellion? Or are you not done fighting your nation's war? Or are you just going to try to escape Forenia?
3: What do you attempt to do? Chase after the traitorous High Commanders? Circle around the building? Just start shooting people you don't like?
Thus begins the Battle of the Embassy. You will all act individually, in this thread, until it concludes. The current situation is a battle between Those loyal to High Command, the Rebellion, and Nationalists from both sides. If you want, feel free to argue with other players why they should join your side.
<_<
Does this include total spectators like me who cheer both Arstotska and Moskurg? Because I'd want in...having silently followed weapons design in brief spurts of logging in and out. ._.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 12:05:38 pm
Goal is to fight to the perimeter, and kill anyone trying to escape. Then escape the rebels myself under cover of darkness.Either 3-on-1 or we never encounter you, which is my hope.
Post by: Baffler on September 14, 2015, 12:11:29 pm
X-23B Submachinegun
A variant of the Cascade submachinegun pending approval for mass production. The magazine was swapped to a 25 round rail that slides onto the top of the gun to reduce its profile, with a more ergonomic stock and a somewhat longer barrel for increased accuracy. It has a detachable suppressor and a vertical foregrip, and was intended for use by covert agents and soldiers attacking from concealment.
Post by: QuakeIV on September 14, 2015, 01:38:44 pm
e2: The head is shaped like a diving Arstotzkan eagle, beak open.
Spoiler: Somewhat like this (click to show/hide)
I decide to chase down and kill the traitorous high command, then attempt to draft a charter for a new glorious Arstotzkan with the other engineers.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 14, 2015, 01:41:13 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 02:17:11 pm
or maybe I could find work in America...Oh yeah. Let's show those Americans how Moskurger engineers do things, and then drink GLORIOUS PINTS of alcohol after work!
We can pool our money to get the same boat out of here and everything.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 02:25:56 pm
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 02:26:31 pm
Which is quite suboptimal considering the next events.
I suddenly regret giving hitler assault rifles.
actually, reading quake's line about a new charter drafted by engineers, for a new nations likely ruled by the same engineeers... I might change my design. I really want to see an engineer nation. ( being a real life engineering student probably helps). I just need to figure out what could help killing the high command.
Post by: Taricus on September 14, 2015, 02:38:21 pm
'Alpha' Assault rifle
A bullpup assault rifle chambered in the .280 intermediate round used by moskurg. Gas operated, selective fire and sporting a 30-round capacity the rifle typically outperforms any other rifle in service, whilst being smaller and easier to handle.
Now, I'm just intent on getting out of here alive, maybe picking up any defectors along the way, storming a boat and sailing off to anywhere but forenia or antartica. Anyone with me? I'm not picky about the former side anyone was on :P
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 02:47:58 pm
Post by: Taricus on September 14, 2015, 02:51:30 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 02:53:52 pm
Post by: Taricus on September 14, 2015, 02:57:09 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 03:04:47 pm
Post by: Elfeater on September 14, 2015, 03:20:47 pm
A massive, oil powered version of the wolf armor, standing twice the height of any man it acts as mech suit in all applications, being able to even stop a tank shell to the chest.
Under one of the arms is an underslung flamethrower and beneath the other is a rotating autocannon firing .4 Inch bullet at rapid speeds.
I plan on escaping
Post by: heydude6 on September 14, 2015, 03:26:56 pm
The very first Moskurg made motorcycle and man!!! It is badass. In addition to being fast and well handling like a typical motorcycle, it also comes with many armaments to shoot your foes with. The first is a simple MK47A with it's magazine modified to carry 100 rounds (drum magazine). Then, there a Hippo in the front which carries a single HE shell allowing you to blown a hole in any wall that gets in your way. In the back, there is a downsized rocket booster (similar to the one attached to a death ball) satisfying your need for speed. Not only will you be fast as all HELL!!!!! a flamethrower attached to the back is designed to make sure your getaways look as badass as possible since you'll be leaving flame trails wherever you go. Not only does it help with looks, the rear mounted flamethrower can also be used to roast your foes alive and making you cool as ice.
Of course, a man understands that there are situations where you sometimes need a little less gun. We are aware of that and so we have taken the liberties of installing a control panel near the front allowing you to toggle all of your firepower on or off. If your ride happens to get wrecked at any moment, we have made it easy to salvage all of the weapons to perform a heroic last stand (except the flamethrower).
So come on, hop on with your friends and have a ride. You're sure to be the coolest man in town.
Escaping obviously. Preferably to the middle east.
First action, look for a window or an outer wall.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 04:13:46 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 14, 2015, 04:17:06 pm
Post by: adwarf on September 14, 2015, 04:26:38 pm
A weapon designed after the glorious rifle of old, but with all the makings of modern weapons. The Horsekiller 1935 is a grand improvement over the earlier 1912 made to act as a weapon for Moskurg's top snipers, and marksmen. It comes equipped with bipod, and adjustable telescopic sight along with a completely redesigned barrel, and firing mechanism created to provide the absolute best accuracy possible.
Determined to get out of this alive, and escape Forenia for good. Perhaps other nations will be willing to except my glorious Moskurg inventions.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 04:53:35 pm
They want the war to end. And, I assume, a significant amount of vengeance against those responsible.
Seems reasonable.
I suppose I shall stay and help destroy the rest of High Command! I'd like to see how Forenia turns out afterwords.
As for my design...
POAC
Spoiler: Looks Like This (click to show/hide)
The POAC-H is an armored car/APC. Intended to carry 6 soldiers, with a hatch on both sides at the back. It has light manganese steel armor (enough to stop small arms fire and higher caliber AP rounds) + slat armor if possible. Six wheels, middle wheel slightly set farther to the back. Pintle mounted Sorraia, as well as a Sorraia in the turret next to the main weapon.
Designed primarily for a 1.7 inch cannon, but can be replaced/refitted for a mounted Hippo Recoilless Rifle, a flamethrower, and, if most of the top of the POAC-H is removed, then a Bumblebee can be placed instead, where the crew compartment would be, or being able to hold a mortar there instead.
Post by: Andres on September 14, 2015, 05:02:10 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on September 14, 2015, 05:08:44 pm
Quote from: the Plans
Escape party: andrea(mini sub), Funk(Rocket Thunder Pistol!), Powder Miner(Rabid Tiger Armour), Baffler (X-23B Submachinegun), Taricus (Alpha Assault Rifle), elfeater (Dust Devil), heydude6 (Cycle of Death), adwarf (Horsekiller 1935)
Anti-Escape: Devastator(Pump Action Grenade Launcher)
To space!: Kot(AS-SS1935X rocket)
Last stand: evilcherry(MK-Stallion .60), tryrar?(pocket nuke?)
Killing the high command: Playergamer(Waterfall SMG), Kashyyk(MM-12 Shotgun), Ghazkull(M-36 Stallion Roaster), QuakeIV(AS-36-RPH), coleslaw35(POAC)
Unknown plans: 10ebbor10(XP-ARAC-AT land dreadnought?,) Sheb(XP-T-35C urban warfare tank)
Post by: Taricus on September 14, 2015, 05:11:26 pm
Post by: Andres on September 14, 2015, 05:13:14 pm
Why wasn't I mentioned here? My plan was the very first to be submitted.Quote from: the PlansEscape party: andrea(mini sub), Funk(Rocket Thunder Pistol!), Powder Miner(Rabid Tiger Armour), Baffler (X-23B Submachinegun), Taricus (Alpha Assault Rifle), elfeater (Dust Devil), heydude6 (Cycle of Death), adwarf (Horsekiller 1935)
Anti-Escape: Devastator(Pump Action Grenade Launcher)
To space!: Kot(AS-SS1935X rocket)
Last stand: evilcherry(MK-Stallion .60), tryrar?(pocket nuke?)
Killing the high command: Playergamer(Waterfall SMG), Kashyyk(MM-12 Shotgun), Ghazkull(M-36 Stallion Roaster), QuakeIV(AS-36-RPH), coleslaw35(POAC)
Unknown plans: 10ebbor10(XP-ARAC-AT land dreadnought?,) Sheb(XP-T-35C urban warfare tank)
Post by: Kashyyk on September 14, 2015, 05:15:29 pm
Quote from: the Plans
Escape party: andrea(mini sub), Funk(Rocket Thunder Pistol!), Powder Miner(Rabid Tiger Armour), Baffler (X-23B Submachinegun), Taricus (Alpha Assault Rifle), elfeater (Dust Devil), heydude6 (Cycle of Death), adwarf (Horsekiller 1935)
Anti-Escape: Devastator(Pump Action Grenade Launcher)
To space!: Kot(AS-SS1935X rocket)
Last stand: evilcherry(MK-Stallion .60), tryrar?(pocket nuke?)
Killing the high command: Andres(AS-MC16AW), Playergamer(Waterfall SMG), Kashyyk(MM-12 Shotgun), Ghazkull(M-36 Stallion Roaster), QuakeIV(AS-36-RPH), coleslaw35(POAC)
Unknown plans: 10ebbor10(XP-ARAC-AT land dreadnought?,) Sheb(XP-T-35C urban warfare tank)
Post by: Baffler on September 14, 2015, 05:15:50 pm
I would expect this cowardice from Moskurgers who are crap cowards but I am surprised how many Arstotzkans are running! We must fight for Arstotzka! This is the last battle before Arstotzka reigns victorious! All that stands between us and total victory is the deaths of the High Commands! Since so many Moskurgs are running away, it would be a piece of cake if we unite! Let us fight for Arstotzka! Glory to Arstotzka!
You're slated for execution by your precious Arsetotzka. Will you stand loyal to the homeland that has so callously betrayed you? The king of Moskurg likely traded the lives of the command and engineering teams for his own in a position of weakness, I don't feel I owe him any further loyalty but I don't hold it against him either. Your Glorious Leader, on the other hand, was bargaining from a position of strength and still chose to throw you to an angry mob. The rebels will likely... not appreciate our continued presence in Forenia either. If there was ever a time to set aside our differences, it'd be now.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 05:17:31 pm
Quote from: the Plans
Killing the high command: Andres(AS-MC16AW), Playergamer(Waterfall SMG), Kashyyk(MM-12 Shotgun), Ghazkull(M-36 Stallion Roaster), QuakeIV(AS-36-RPH), Coleslaw35 (POAC)
You guys want a ride in my POAC?
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 05:27:25 pm
Sorry mini sub, and sorry for everyone who wanted to ride on it. I am staying. Lets lead the revolution, lets kill the true instigators of this latest war and most importantly lets rule Arstotzka.
I am carrying a gyrojet automatic rifle. It firest silently and quickly and it uses rocket propelled projectiles.
I'll join Sheb in the glorious Arstotzka tank
Post by: Playergamer on September 14, 2015, 05:34:36 pm
Post by: Elfeater on September 14, 2015, 05:35:20 pm
You guys will have to get out of here and get to your vehicles, if you chose a vehicle, right? Since you aren't sitting in your vehicle inside of the embassy.The vehicles were in the foyer
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 05:38:13 pm
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 05:38:48 pm
I just hope devastator doesn't get in the way.
anyway, perhaps we could regroup at the ARAC if we can't quickly kill the high command? if we manage to take control of it, we can make a good show. Those things are huge. and if things go bad, it should still hold a few planes.
Post by: Sheb on September 14, 2015, 06:04:27 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on September 14, 2015, 06:06:08 pm
I am fighting against High Command.
Go bowling for High Comand members.
Spoiler: alternative, if the death ball isn't allowed (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on September 14, 2015, 06:14:47 pm
Really? Taking a design from another weapon design game? Thats sorta mean...
POACSpoiler: Looks Like This (click to show/hide)
Also, dear lord, did you guys do alot while I was ill... Ahwell, time for me to join.
Having escaped from the conference by dint of being in the bathroom when it all went down, E-AS-09-05 (engineer, Arstotskan, rank nine, number five) headed quickly to his underground office, where he took his case of prototypes. After attaching the grenade launcher to his assault rifle, he then headed for the safest place he could think of.
The front lines.
Also, I am totally not going to be revving up my forum game, and am totally not typing this in hopes that more people join to fill out the lists. But it is fun. Atleast for me.
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 06:15:00 pm
It might even be the only one in our list that would sound decent if said out loud.
Sheb, I forgot about your tank! I edited my action. I'll get to your tank with my trusty gyrojet ( although perhaps a jetpack would hold more utility, but I feel I have to shoot soon) , then I'll man an autocannon or the turret.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 06:15:11 pm
Post by: andrea on September 14, 2015, 06:17:11 pm
I guess devastator still blames everyone for moskurg's defeat.
Post by: Funk on September 14, 2015, 06:19:09 pm
I can still accept a few crewmembers in my XP-T35C if you guys feels like it.If your escaping i'll come with you.
Post by: Elephant Parade on September 14, 2015, 06:20:26 pm
why would you you sabotage fellow engineers?Well, that's my alternate action. I'd rather go bowling for High Command, but I couldn't think of anything else.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 06:35:32 pm
POACSpoiler: Looks Like This (click to show/hide)
Really? Taking a design from another weapon design game? Thats sorta mean...
lolwut, how?
Plus, this one's about to end anyways.
Quote from: Aseaheru's sneaky transparent text
Also, I am totally not going to be revving up my forum game, and am totally not typing this in hopes that more people join to fill out the lists. But it is fun. Atleast for me.
*points everyone to this*
Post by: Aseaheru on September 14, 2015, 06:38:06 pm
"And I would have gotten away with it if it wasent for you meddling forum poster!"
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 14, 2015, 06:44:23 pm
/me shakes his fist while cutting the lines on his balloon
"And I would have gotten away with it if it wasent for you meddling forum poster!"
How do you expect people to join when the only times you tell anyone about it is in transparent text that you can only see by either coincidentally highlighting it or quoting you? :P
Again, though, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic when you said I'm "being pretty mean" for using a design I used in your forum game. You probably are, and I'm probably being dumb.
Post by: Devastator on September 14, 2015, 08:08:40 pm
Devestator I have to say your attachment to grenades is legendary.
No matter how much you dislike them, they remain really good weapons. You just.. didn't want to build them. Not sure if it was because you didn't think they'd be useful, or simply couldn't work with me, but they're good weapons and you were adamantly opposed to them. I also figure the more dead leaders, the more confusion there will be, and confusion is good in this case. The rebels want everyone in the building to die, so that's the only way to convince them I'm on their side. I don't want to stay with them, because I'd expect three or four rounds of full-circle rebellion along with plenty of soldiers doing random unpredictable things.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 08:49:08 pm
The rebels want everyone in the building to dieI'm... pretty sure this isn't true in the slightest, they want High Command dead.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 14, 2015, 09:38:55 pm
Post by: Playergamer on September 14, 2015, 09:41:24 pm
And us, apparently.No, High Command wants us dead, we don't know if the rebels want us dead.
Post by: Powder Miner on September 14, 2015, 10:17:56 pm
Post by: Baffler on September 14, 2015, 10:41:53 pm
Post by: evilcherry on September 14, 2015, 11:43:18 pm
No offense intended. I thought it was IC enough to be a joke. Turned out that your attachment to the Grenade launcher is just that real.Devestator I have to say your attachment to grenades is legendary.
No matter how much you dislike them, they remain really good weapons. You just.. didn't want to build them. Not sure if it was because you didn't think they'd be useful, or simply couldn't work with me, but they're good weapons and you were adamantly opposed to them. I also figure the more dead leaders, the more confusion there will be, and confusion is good in this case. The rebels want everyone in the building to die, so that's the only way to convince them I'm on their side. I don't want to stay with them, because I'd expect three or four rounds of full-circle rebellion along with plenty of soldiers doing random unpredictable things.
I would want otherwise, but as you now wanted everyone to die, prepare for a hail of .600 rounds. ORARARARARARARARARARARA!
Post by: Devastator on September 15, 2015, 01:17:08 am
And I don't want everyone to die, just those assholes in high command, and those traitors who want only to escape abroad, rather than staying to end the fighting sooner. If you want only to leave, just keep your head down and give up your fancy weapons.
Post by: Devastator on September 15, 2015, 01:58:46 am
-edit- new orders are up.
Post by: andrea on September 15, 2015, 02:23:39 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 15, 2015, 03:17:06 am
Post by: Andres on September 15, 2015, 03:43:41 am
First of all, there was absolutely no mention of rebels up until this last battle report, at least for Arstotzka. There was some grumbling when Moskurg gave some tech away to Britain but that's it. Despite there being no rebel activity, the last turn made it very clear that there were lots of rebels and in both Arstotzka and Moskurg.
I can understand why there'd be rebels in Moskurg considering the British Thing and the fact that they're about to lose, but why are there Arstotzkan rebels? The whole point of the original rebels was to stop the war because it was a scheme for the higher-ups to stay in power, but we were just about to win the war so that's obviously not the case. There's really no point for Arstotzkans to rebel. Considering Moskurg and Arstotzka's long and violent history, I highly doubt that they would rebel out of altruism or anything.
Continuing from that, I find it really unrealistic that the soldiers of Moskurg and Arstotzka would start wearing each-others' colours. I can understand them joining together for a bit, putting aside their mutual hatred to focus on the even more hated High Command. What seems completely out of character is them wearing the colours of the enemy after quarter of a century of continuous warfare. And again, why are there so many rebel soldiers on Arstotzka's side when they were just about to win the eternal war? It makes no sense.
In conclusion, this final battle report would've been absolutely fine so long as the rebels weren't a part of it. The same situations could've happened without them and it would still be a good story, but with them it's just not.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on September 15, 2015, 04:02:20 am
Post by: Sensei on September 15, 2015, 04:37:40 am
So I've been thinking and I've come to the realisation that I don't really like this ending. I'm fine with the idea of High Command betraying everyone and everyone in turn going after them. It's the rebel element I don't like.Hehe, next time I start up with the rebels, i'll give you a little more foreplay first. :P
First of all, there was absolutely no mention of rebels up until this last battle report, at least for Arstotzka. There was some grumbling when Moskurg gave some tech away to Britain but that's it. Despite there being no rebel activity, the last turn made it very clear that there were lots of rebels and in both Arstotzka and Moskurg.
I can understand why there'd be rebels in Moskurg considering the British Thing and the fact that they're about to lose, but why are there Arstotzkan rebels? The whole point of the original rebels was to stop the war because it was a scheme for the higher-ups to stay in power, but we were just about to win the war so that's obviously not the case. There's really no point for Arstotzkans to rebel. Considering Moskurg and Arstotzka's long and violent history, I highly doubt that they would rebel out of altruism or anything.
Continuing from that, I find it really unrealistic that the soldiers of Moskurg and Arstotzka would start wearing each-others' colours. I can understand them joining together for a bit, putting aside their mutual hatred to focus on the even more hated High Command. What seems completely out of character is them wearing the colours of the enemy after quarter of a century of continuous warfare. And again, why are there so many rebel soldiers on Arstotzka's side when they were just about to win the eternal war? It makes no sense.
In conclusion, this final battle report would've been absolutely fine so long as the rebels weren't a part of it. The same situations could've happened without them and it would still be a good story, but with them it's just not.
And yeah, I did bring them back kinda suddenly. I did that because I like the rebels. I think the way they behaved makes enough sense though- there are even Arstotzkans who don't want to see Moskurg prisoners treated like animals. But I'm not going to write a long paragraph justifying details or anything.
Speaking of not writing, I started writing the next... turn? I guess I'll say it counts as a turn. But for now I need to sleep.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 15, 2015, 04:46:00 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 15, 2015, 04:59:46 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 15, 2015, 05:14:32 am
Its sounds more like an autocoup for me. Its entirely plausible for the leaders to call for the heads of us death-merchants.So I've been thinking and I've come to the realisation that I don't really like this ending. I'm fine with the idea of High Command betraying everyone and everyone in turn going after them. It's the rebel element I don't like.Hehe, next time I start up with the rebels, i'll give you a little more foreplay first. :P
First of all, there was absolutely no mention of rebels up until this last battle report, at least for Arstotzka. There was some grumbling when Moskurg gave some tech away to Britain but that's it. Despite there being no rebel activity, the last turn made it very clear that there were lots of rebels and in both Arstotzka and Moskurg.
I can understand why there'd be rebels in Moskurg considering the British Thing and the fact that they're about to lose, but why are there Arstotzkan rebels? The whole point of the original rebels was to stop the war because it was a scheme for the higher-ups to stay in power, but we were just about to win the war so that's obviously not the case. There's really no point for Arstotzkans to rebel. Considering Moskurg and Arstotzka's long and violent history, I highly doubt that they would rebel out of altruism or anything.
Continuing from that, I find it really unrealistic that the soldiers of Moskurg and Arstotzka would start wearing each-others' colours. I can understand them joining together for a bit, putting aside their mutual hatred to focus on the even more hated High Command. What seems completely out of character is them wearing the colours of the enemy after quarter of a century of continuous warfare. And again, why are there so many rebel soldiers on Arstotzka's side when they were just about to win the eternal war? It makes no sense.
In conclusion, this final battle report would've been absolutely fine so long as the rebels weren't a part of it. The same situations could've happened without them and it would still be a good story, but with them it's just not.
And yeah, I did bring them back kinda suddenly. I did that because I like the rebels. I think the way they behaved makes enough sense though- there are even Arstotzkans who don't want to see Moskurg prisoners treated like animals. But I'm not going to write a long paragraph justifying details or anything.
Speaking of not writing, I started writing the next... turn? I guess I'll say it counts as a turn. But for now I need to sleep.
Post by: Tiruin on September 15, 2015, 05:27:23 am
So I've been thinking and I've come to the realisation that I don't really like this ending. I'm fine with the idea of High Command betraying everyone and everyone in turn going after them. It's the rebel element I don't like.Hehe, next time I start up with the rebels, i'll give you a little more foreplay first. :P
First of all, there was absolutely no mention of rebels up until this last battle report, at least for Arstotzka. There was some grumbling when Moskurg gave some tech away to Britain but that's it. Despite there being no rebel activity, the last turn made it very clear that there were lots of rebels and in both Arstotzka and Moskurg.
I can understand why there'd be rebels in Moskurg considering the British Thing and the fact that they're about to lose, but why are there Arstotzkan rebels? The whole point of the original rebels was to stop the war because it was a scheme for the higher-ups to stay in power, but we were just about to win the war so that's obviously not the case. There's really no point for Arstotzkans to rebel. Considering Moskurg and Arstotzka's long and violent history, I highly doubt that they would rebel out of altruism or anything.
Continuing from that, I find it really unrealistic that the soldiers of Moskurg and Arstotzka would start wearing each-others' colours. I can understand them joining together for a bit, putting aside their mutual hatred to focus on the even more hated High Command. What seems completely out of character is them wearing the colours of the enemy after quarter of a century of continuous warfare. And again, why are there so many rebel soldiers on Arstotzka's side when they were just about to win the eternal war? It makes no sense.
In conclusion, this final battle report would've been absolutely fine so long as the rebels weren't a part of it. The same situations could've happened without them and it would still be a good story, but with them it's just not.
And yeah, I did bring them back kinda suddenly. I did that because I like the rebels. I think the way they behaved makes enough sense though- there are even Arstotzkans who don't want to see Moskurg prisoners treated like animals. But I'm not going to write a long paragraph justifying details or anything.
Speaking of not writing, I started writing the next... turn? I guess I'll say it counts as a turn. But for now I need to sleep.
Tiruin, you might as well design something. There's bound to be some engineering assistants on each team who'd be present at the embassy.Hmm, guess I've not the time to post before the next update is up. :-\
Spoiler: What was to be my...thing? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on September 15, 2015, 03:56:13 pm
Weapon: The AS-M35-2000000000
This is a massive armored motorcycle/ personal defense system. It consists of a captured Tiger Armor modified to be attached to a motorcycle. The motor cycle is heavily armored, has a top normal speed of 150 kph, and two rockets mounted to the rear wheel enable it to briefly reach speeds of up to 300kph. It has 2 sidecars on each side. Each has a rocket that can be fired to enable tighter turns. The motorcycle itself is heavily armored, with slats and spaced armor, a mineclearer in front, a mine deployer in the rear, a pair of RPG28 As mounted above the front wheel and a pair of AS-AC18s beneath the handlebars. Each sidecar has two Hippo recoiless rifles, two AS-AC18s, a pair of AS-1911 8cm Mortar, and a pair of M3 Sorrarias. Every weapon system is modifed to be controlled from where the operator sits. This includes aiming and reloading as well as firing. The Tiger Armor has a pair of As-M16-As which the operator can fire while operating all other functions.
I will attempt to destroy everything on Forenia but my fellow engineers.
I will start by attacking the High Command. I will ignore any others who fail to attack me. If someone does attack me, I will destroy them
Post by: Sensei on September 16, 2015, 07:37:59 am
The Battle of the Embassy
The battle is spilling into the lobby already as the lot of you rush for weapons. It's roughly an even mix of bi-colored rebels, High Command's black-clad personal guard and the soldiers loyal to them, and nationalist soldiers from either side. In the chaos, it looks like everybody is having trouble telling their own apart due the confusion of uniforms. The black-clad guards are just shooting anybody who approaches them, doubtless including some of their own loyal soldiers. Civilians who were present are mostly running for cover, though a lot of them have donned rebel garb since the fighting started. When you part in the lobby, there is a moment of tension- there has only been a little time to argue about causes, and not all of are certain if the person you were previously sitting next to will be an enemy once you have guns in your hands.
Andres:
You grab your MC16AW, and a backpack containing a few yards of belt. You step out into the lobby and unleash a torrent of fire in the general direction of the door, causing people of various factions to dive for cover. After a few seconds you yell, "Death to the High Command!" Three quarters of the people there figure that means you're on their side for now, and don't shoot at you. When you look down at your barrel, it's glowing orange.
Continued below at Killing High Command
evilcherry:
You grab your MK Stallion, an MK47 chambered for .600 Horsekiller rounds. When you emerge, one of the other engineers -a Moskurg engineer, your former colleague, no less- is pointing a grenade launcher at you. Or maybe he isn't really pointing at you, but he has a terrible sense of humor and you've frankly just been looking for a good excuse. You fire a string of rounds at him, or try: The muzzle rise is so drastic that by fifth round the MK Stallion has left your hands and is flipping through the air behind you. You missed completely. He aims his grenade launcher, and blasts you to smithereens.
Powder Miner:
You don your Rabid Tiger, Tiger armor with two arm-mounted Horsekillers, in your own semi-automatic variant (thank god, because it's hard to load a Horsekiller while wearing this armor). You can't use the sights at all, but that doesn't stop you form blasting an armored guard who tries to stop you right in the chest. You make your way out the front door to the growing din of battle outside.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Tryrar:
You brandish a detonator in your hand and announce, "If I let go of this trigger, my Pocket Nuclear Bomb will detonate, blowing you all sky high! I demand safe passage off of Forenia!" You're not entirely sure if your Pocket Nuke will work, but hopefully you don't have to find out. At any rate, you've got people's attention. Nobody wants to kill you badly enough to try shooting you, and you make your way out the door.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Funk:
You pick up your Rocket Thunder Pistol, and wade into the bloodbath to escape- maybe to your motorcycle parked outside. A guard gets in your way, and you explode half of his chest with a 15mm rocket. You're pretty sure this violates the Hague convention. A few blasts later, you've made it out a window close to where you parked your bike.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Kashyyk:
You equip your MM-12, the semi-automatic shotgun that you would have put into production years ago to give Moskurg a decisive close combat advantage which might have reversed the war, but it was such a cool weapon you had to keep it for yourself. You've donned Tiger armor and grabbed some grenades from the Arstotzkans, in time to see Andres yell, "Death to high command!" You echo his battlecry and join him.
Continued below at Killing High Command
Playergamer:
You load your Cascade with the new Waterfall magazine you've been working on. Like the MC16 dual drum mag, it looks a bit like, well, you know. However, the Waterfall magazine is sized to put the Arstotzkan one to shame. Sized specifically with that in mind, in fact. You see Andres going to kill High Command, noting that he has pre-emptively one-upped you by giving his SMG a belt feed! Cheeky bastard thought of everything. Well dammit, you're going to do it first!
Continued below at Killing High Command
10ebbor10:
Your experimental XP-ARAC-AT is erected outside. It's a special shortened version of the ARAC which launches small rocket-gliders by catapult. You join some of the other engineers running outside with the intent to escape by the ARAC and assert a new chain of command once the old High Command is dead. You take a bullet to your left arm on the way out.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Sheb:
You have an experimental tank outside, the XP-T35C, a heavily armored tank with three turrets for combined antitank and anti-infantry roles. You rush outside with the other escapees to get it, hoping to protect the ARAC-AT. Luckily you get to your tank, and some of the other engineers are willing to help you pilot it.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Kot:
The AS-SS1935X. Your crowning achievement. You damaged your reputation when you published papers claiming that the behavior of Moskurg's recoilless rifles was physically impossible and accused them of witchcraft, but this will prove you are Forenia's greatest engineer and physicist! It's a rocket, a rocket to end all rockets, a rocket that will carry a landing pod, crew, food, and space suits all the way to the moon where you can proclaim your success from on high (by radio). "It's time to launch the rocket!" You yell. The AS-SS1935X has been built in secret, but the Rocket Club knows it well. Most of its present members were simply fleeing, but they join you instead. Unfortunately, none of them are attractive women. In fact, every single one has a waxed mustache.
Continued below at The Rocket
Ghazkull:
You don your armor and armored M-36 Flamethrower, and join Andres to kill High Command in the name of the rebellion.
Continued below at Killing High Command
Devastator:
Those bastards are responsible for all of this. Your fellow engineers who wouldn't listen to you, the Arstotzkans, they're all a bunch of bastards. You shoot them mean glares on the way out. One of your former compatriots tries to gun you down with a ridiculous over-caliber MK47, and you blast him to bits. You make your way to the Moskurg end of the front lines as the din of battle rises outside.
Continued below at Fighting the War
Baffler:
Your X23B SMG isn't the craziest submachine gun variant on display today, but its ammo rail is light and it should get you out of here. Hopefully. Despite a close call with some maniac wielding a flamethrower who doesn't appear to be on anyone's side, you dive through one of the front windows to escape the building unharmed. Except by shards of glass. Actually, you're pretty cut up, jumping through a window was a terrible idea.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
QuakeIV:
A MOST GLORIOUS WEAPON! YOUR AS-36-RPH ROCKET HAMMER IS THE EFFIGY OF AN EAGLE, TO CRUSH YOUR FOES, POWERED BY A HOLY FIRE! YOU ARE OF IRON WILL AND STEELY MUSCLE, WITH GREAT ARMOR AND THE MIGHTIEST HAMMER YOU ARE ARMED. YOUR ARE A BULWARK AGAINST TERROR, A DEFENDER OF FORENIA, AND YOU SHALL KNOW NO FEAR! DEATH TO THE TRAITOR COMMAND!
CONTINUED BELOW AT Killing High Command
Taricus:
You awkwardly load the magazine into your bullpup Alpha Assault Rifle (you'll get used to it eventually). Other Moskurg engineers say longer guns are always more powerful, but you know better. The Alpha performs marginally better than the MK47A due to increased barrel length despite less overall length, and is select-fire. You move swiftly through the halls, blasting royal guards and nationalist soldiers, and exit the east side of the building having killed several people.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Elfeater:
You have two interns help you strap into your Dust Devil powered armor and start the motor. You lift one steel-clad leg and feel the the hydraulics move with you... and then keep going up... you try to shift your body weight slightly, but you just can't. In a moment the armor failed to catch up with your leg, and then the rest of your body, and you fall on your side. You can't get up. Lucklily, you at least have a switch to eject from the 600 pound armor. The best you can do now is rush for the door.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
heydude6:
Outside, is your Cycle of Death, a motorcycle with an assault rifle and a recoilless rifle and rockets and flamethrowers. You just have to get to it. Luckily, it's just a short sprint to the front door. You make it out without getting shot.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Adwarf:
You've had enough of this. Time to grab a rifle and get the hell out of Forenia. But for you, not just any rifle- you've been building the Horsekiller 1935, a deadly accurate, scoped, mag-fed rifle in the .60 caliber. You make a dash for the door. A stray .60 caliber bullet from some guy who can't hold on to his rifle strikes you in the head and kills you.
Coleslaw35:
Outside is your PAOC APC, a heavy armed and armored car that can carry six. You run outside to find that it's been hit by heavy artillery and destroyed. For now, you grab a motorcycle and get around the back entrance to see if High Command pops out that way.
Continued below at Killing High Command
Andrea:
You shall kill the High Command, and you shall do it with your gyrojet rifle! As long as they aren't too close when you fire it. For now though, you go to join Sheb in his tank.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Elephant Parade:
Time to go bowling! You have a half size, remote-control-assisted death ball, near the back entrance. That's probably where those high command bastards will be going. You find your way to a window with a view in case they escape the building.
Continued below at Killing High Command
Tiruin:
You don your Panthera Hybrid Armor, a set of armor considerably heavier than Tiger Infantry Armor, and proportionally more durable. However, its weight makes it impossible for an ordinary soldier to bear, so it has a series of "lightening devices" which reduce the weight of the armor. The Devices exert a force counter to the earth's gravity, making it possible for a soldier to move in the armor. Well, let's be honest, the lightening devices are balloons. You storm forward in your tank-proof armor (well, hopefully it's tank proof) with a massive congregation of colorful balloons trailing behind you. More or less the moment you enter the lobby, someone decides you look like a good target. Bullets ping harmlessly off of your armor. But then, a string of machinegun fire (it looks like some guy lost control of his MK47, spraying bullets into the air) pops most of your balloons. You fall with a clang onto the floor, unable to even get your armor off. You call for help, and somebody drags you indignantly out of the front door.
Continued below at Escaping Forenia
Urist Mc Dwarf:
You equip your modified Tiger armor, designed to fit your AS-M35-200000000 motorcycle, which is a motorcycle with rocket boosters and like fifty weapons on it. When you made it, you just started welding weapons on until there wasn't any room left, you don't even remember what all the weapons are. Before you do that, though, you pick up an AS-AR34 and join the growing party of people headed to kill High Command.
Continued below at Killing High Command
E-AS-09-05:
You attach your under-barrel grenade launcher to the rail of an AR34, and shoot your way out of the building. An Arstotzkan loyalist in armor turns to attack you, and you pull the trigger on your grenade launcher. BOOM! It explodes in the barrel, killing both of you.
Killing High Command
Five engineers have made an alliance to gun down the High Command. Playergamer, however, is more interested in doing it himself- and more to the point, some of those are Arsetotzkan bastards! Playergamer opens fire with his Waterfall SMG on Andres, but Andres jukes aside, knocking most of his team on their asses in the process. It's a duel of over-ammoed SMGs! Andres' MC16AW and Playergamer's Waterfall keeping firing constantly as the two run about the lobby spreading chaos. Neither engineer lets off the trigger the entire time. By the time Playergamer has run up on to a balcony for a better shot, both weapons' barrels have gotten so hot they will no longer fire at all. Playergamer runs through the balcony entrance to the speech room, while the rest go by the floor. Those down below are entering a battle between all of the different factions, with the rebels having the upper hand as their soldiers duck and move between rows of amphitheater seats. Urist Mc Dwarf takes a 9mm round to the leg and falls behind, retreating for his motorcycle. The party runs up on the stage and past the burning curtains, Kashyyk drops a stage light on a Tiger Armor-wearing Royal Guard with a few pumps of his shotgun. The backstage area is still occupied by the Royal Guard, loyal to High Command, and a few soldiers who have joined them. After some shooting and flaming, with support from behind by rebel soldiers, the party comes to a locked door. Quake swings his hammer, activating the rocket, and misses the door, creating a door-sized hole in the wall and turning a guard on the other side of the wall to fine red mist. The party bursts through the gap in the brick wall to see the Former King and Glorious leader hurrying out the back door. Kashyyk fire and wounds the King with some shotgun pellets, but they run outside. Playergamer, on the upper floor, watches the pair exit and drops his red hot gun on the King's head. The Glorious Leader keeps running as Elephant Parade activates his mini Death Ball and runs the king over, crashing into the building. The group on the ground climbs through the rubble around the Death Ball's impact site (the back door no longer exists in any recognizable form). The Glorious Leader is running out into the battlefield, looking for soldiers loyal to him. Coleslaw gets there just in time to tackle him to the ground. The main group holds their fire while the two are engaged in fisticuffs, giving Quake enough time to put a new rocket into his massive warhammer. Quake orders Coleslaw out of the way, raising his hammer. With one rocket blast, Quake slays the Glorious Leader, and digs him a shallow grave in the process.
The old rulers are dead. It is a new age for Forenia.
Escaping Forenia
Sheb (in tank protecting ARACAT), Baffler, elfeater
The area surrounding the embassy is utterly consumed with battle. Both armies have been shorn in two as the nationalists and loyalists turned on each other, and there is now a third rebel army, most of whom were wearing national uniforms only minutes ago. The main ARAC has launched planes, though you don't know who they're loyal to. AS-T33s have turned on eachother, circling and firing their cannons. A group of Moskurg officers are jousting each other with scimitars while riding stolen motorcycles, and all this is in addition to the continuation of a 25 year long war.
About half a dozen engineers have banded together, looking for a way out of the battle. 10ebbor10 leads the group to his ARAC AT, and Sheb and Andrea go to Sheb's experimental heavy tank. Together the group retakes the ARAC-AT from Arstotzkan nationalists, including two AS-T33s. Powder Miner and Taricus climb into the first rocket glider, and the catapult cable launches the craft along the runway before Taricus actives the rocket motor and steers out of the battle. A wing tears off of the glider and it loses control, but they manage to bail out. Funk and Tryrar board the next rocket glider. When climbing in, Tryrar accidentally drops his Pocket Nuke Detonator! ...nothing happens. A whole year of studying nuclear physics, down the drain! The glider, however, launches and flies towards Moskurg's port without incident. Heydude6 finds his Cycle of Death bike, climbs on, and realizes that it simply has too many weapons to ride effectively. The Cycle of Death is overweight and unbalanced, and the recoilless rifle is liable to hit the rider with backblast. He falls over while riding it and opts for a truck instead. Elfeater helps load Tiruin, still trapped in his armor, onto the truck and the group races out of battle for the Arstotzkan airport to the south, with Sheb covering them. 10ebbor10 and Baffler climb into the last glider and launch away. Lastly Sheb, convincing some rebels to help him crew his tank, carves a bloody path through a group of Moskurg nationalists to escape the battlefield and drives until running out of gas (surprisingly not that far) before stealing a motorcycle.
The escaping engineers charter ships and planes, and disperse themselves about the world, or go into hiding until the war is settled.
The Rocket
Kot feeds some lines about a "massive rocket weapon" to a group of Arstotzkan nationalists, to convince them to lend him an AS-HV19 truck for him and his few most trusted Rocket Club associates to drive up to the observatory. High on the peak of Mount Glory (all mountains are Mount Glory since Arstotzka took control of the mountains) sits Arstotzka's finest observatory- that is to say it cost millions of Arstotzkan Credits and doesn't even have a telescope. There are a few imported civilian stargazing telescopes to use on sight, actually, but Arstotzka's telescope manufacturing is by and large limited to 4x zoom rifle sights.
This has been an effort spanning years. Kot worked to gain the trust (and funding) of high command, plan the project from the ground up, and turn the Rocket Club from a loose group of academics who shared notes and met for experimental rocket demonstrations into an organized secret society with him as its leader. The truck was just now finishing is long climb up the bumpy road, after a two day journey. It is a clear night, the stars are visible in the sky, and little points of light are visible down below too, the fires of battle in the distance. Most of all the moon is large and full in the sky, clear overhead. No sooner than the truck comes to a halt, he is running to the doors of the observatory, and shouting to the Rocket Club members there- "It's time! It's time!" The people there are roused from their drowsy state, standing up from chairs and leaving their telescopes. "It's time!" they echo the call through the building to one another. "It's time! It's time! It's finally time!"
The observatory's two great dome halves fold back, and the rocket is lifted into position, its head (the lander capsule, with an aerodynamic shroud) rising out of its deep silo. Rocket Club workers scurry like ants about the site, removing fuel lines from the lander and placing the gangplank. Provisions are hauled from storage. Men with thick glasses look over every inch of the craft for flaws. Kot and his team are helped into their space suits, and sealed into the capsule. A countdown begins. Ten! Nine! Eight! Seven! Six! Five! Four! Three! Two! One! Ignition! Glory to Arstotzka! There is a blast unlike any before heard on earth as the silo's supply of powder is ignited, launching the entire craft abruptly into the air. Shortly thereafter, the first solid rocket stage ignites. Kot and his crew rise into the sky, the rocket growing smaller. The second stage ignites, dropping off the section of fuselage below it. By now the craft is a pinpoint in the sky, visible mostly by its trail, which glows in the light of the rocket's flame. The third stage ignites. As Kot looks out his view-port, the stars are clearer, the earth is beginning to look very round, and the atmosphere gauge reads very little. The fourth and final stage ignites, and the craft makes its days-long journey towards the moon.
The AS-SS1935X's high-powered radio seems to have failed. Arstotzka receives no radio transmission from the rocket. Arstotzka's telescopes have difficulty finding the rocket, until on November 28th, a member of the Rocket Club confirms an observation using a new high-powered astronomy telescope of their own design. They conclude this: "The rocket has not arrived at its destination. It has passed by the side, but sufficiently near to retain lunar attraction. The rectilinear movement has thus become changed into a circular motion of extreme velocity, and it is now pursuing an elliptical orbit round the moon, of which it has become a true satellite. The elements of this new star we have as yet been unable to determine; we do not yet know the velocity of its passage. The distance which separates it from the surface of the moon may be estimated at about 2833 miles. Either the attraction of the moon will end by drawing them into itself, and the travelers will attain their destination; or, the rocket, following an immutable law, will continue to gravitate round the moon till the end of time. At some future time, our observations will be able to determine this point, but till then the experiment of the Rocket Club can have no other result than to have provided our solar system with a new star."
Fighting the War
As the battle has begun to wear on a bit, the Loyalists are outnumbered and surrounded by Nationalists and Rebels. Ghazkull and Andrea go to join the rebels. Ghazkull uses his flamethrower to oust a group of Moskurg nationalists from their B2 Destroyer position, and holds it for the rebels. Andrea follows him, using the Gyrojet rifle to great effect defending the artillery trench, until an enemy soldier gets so close his standard-issue chestplate blocks the round. Andrea gets shot before Ghazkull can cover him, and is carried away from the battle, alive but bleeding badly. Andres joins the Arstotzkan nationalists, picking up a standard-issue AR34 after having melted his MC16AW's barrel. Devastator blasts a group of Arstotzkan motorcyclists with his grenade launcher, the motor-cavalry are easily dispatched in the open because the grenades don't even need to hit directly. As he makes his way towards Arstotzkan lines. Andres spots Devastator and his repeated explosions from a couple hundred yards away, and shoots him fatally in the chest before the MK47A wielding Moskurg soldiers can accurately shoot at the Arstotzkan lines. Playergamer picks up another Cascade to use with his Waterfall magazine and fights through the Moskurg motor pool, which is overrun with rebels, but is killed by a Tiger truck exploding. As the fighting continues, Andres is knocked unconscious by a falling chunk of airplane (good thing he had a helmet) and captured by rebels.
Urist Mc Dwarf gets in his AS-M35-200000000 motorcycle, and realizes it can only achieve about 35 kilometers per hour when fully loaded, and the weapons can't be aimed with any accuracy. After firing a few useless shots (and one RPG that finds a new home in a SPAT) he activates the rocket boosters, which bring the bike to 100 KPH before shaking it to pieces and causing the mines to explode in a huge fireball. Urist Mc Dwarf does not survive.
Eventually Arstotzka's army is forced to retreat, and the rebels hold the embassy. After a few months of fighting, and a lot of (not untruthful) speeches about how the old High Command were terrible and willing to throw their citizens under the bus, and the nations they built were terrible places to live, the rebels control all of Forenia. It is declared to be the new nation of United Forenia, but its charter is yet to be written.
To be continued?
Post by: evilcherry on September 16, 2015, 08:02:23 am
Post by: andrea on September 16, 2015, 08:04:10 am
it seems we might get to write the charter.
edit: also, the rocket club part sounds a lot like "the moon voyage" by Verne. I wonder if it has the same end.
Post by: Andres on September 16, 2015, 08:14:00 am
Post by: andrea on September 16, 2015, 08:17:18 am
not many of us who stayed are alive, it seems. The fighting was brutal.
Post by: Kashyyk on September 16, 2015, 08:21:27 am
Either way, I offer my services as a weapon designer to the rebels. Then see if I can get involved in this charter.
Post by: Kot on September 16, 2015, 08:45:42 am
This isin't perfect, but it's still fucking awesome. We beat Germany to achieving orbit, we beat Russians to put a satelite, we beat Russians again to get people into space, we beat Americans to sending exorbital flight. Proably beat them to land on the moon... will it be in one piece or not, I can't tell. Also the children will look better, hopefully.
I hope they name the new satelite of moon something like GLORY OF ARSTOTZKA or dunno, Kot?
Post by: Powder Miner on September 16, 2015, 08:46:27 am
At least I bailed. America, here I come!
Post by: Funk on September 16, 2015, 08:58:35 am
Post by: notquitethere on September 16, 2015, 09:15:56 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 16, 2015, 09:19:25 am
Post by: Sheb on September 16, 2015, 09:25:09 am
Post by: Kot on September 16, 2015, 09:27:28 am
I like that almost all of our new designs sucked one way or another. So is the product of engineers not having a revision phase.Getting attractive females into rocket club proably required more than revision phase.
Post by: andrea on September 16, 2015, 09:28:57 am
Post by: Playergamer on September 16, 2015, 09:29:28 am
Post by: Kot on September 16, 2015, 09:32:00 am
The game ended and I just got THE BEST IDEA EVER. (https://youtu.be/S3wjn7JXG4A)
Post by: Funk on September 16, 2015, 09:47:50 am
I like that almost all of our new designs sucked one way or another. So is the product of engineers not having a revision phase.Mine worked fine but then it was a simple design, so it was going to work or explode in my hand.
I liked the ending as it let us all use our crazy/left over designs.
Post by: tryrar on September 16, 2015, 10:13:28 am
Post by: Kashyyk on September 16, 2015, 10:32:41 am
Post by: Powder Miner on September 16, 2015, 10:48:23 am
Post by: Taricus on September 16, 2015, 11:17:37 am
But hey, alls well that ends well, now I'm off to the UK to help unfuck the situation that giving the nazis assault rifles started :P
Post by: Powder Miner on September 16, 2015, 11:26:59 am
Post by: Taricus on September 16, 2015, 11:31:35 am
Post by: Funk on September 16, 2015, 11:32:07 am
The Rasta Blaster has a nice ring to it and if the League of Nations won't act i will.
Post by: Kot on September 16, 2015, 11:52:27 am
But hey, alls well that ends well, now I'm off to the UK to help unfuck the situation that giving the nazis assault rifles started :PShit. I just realized I should have went to Poland.
Oh well...
Post by: Taricus on September 16, 2015, 11:55:12 am
Post by: Devastator on September 16, 2015, 12:13:26 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 16, 2015, 12:23:41 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on September 16, 2015, 12:26:43 pm
Post by: Sheb on September 16, 2015, 12:42:00 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on September 16, 2015, 01:10:01 pm
Post by: adwarf on September 16, 2015, 02:32:19 pm
EDIT: If it was evilcherry ... you sir have incurred my ghost's Moskurgian Tiger fueled wrath. :(
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on September 16, 2015, 03:07:03 pm
Post by: Kot on September 16, 2015, 03:08:15 pm
I kinda expected something like that for my cycle.It kinda ran on rule of coolIf it ran on rule of cool, what did my rocket ran on? Power of GLORY?
Post by: Sensei on September 16, 2015, 03:28:09 pm
You missed my actions...I actually didn't! But you're labeled as E-AS-09-05, remember? ;)
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 16, 2015, 03:42:54 pm
You did bare fist box the Glorious Leader though. Got further than any other Moskurgian did :P
I suppose you're correct. Still, I wanted to say what role the POAC would've played.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 16, 2015, 03:44:22 pm
Post by: Sensei on September 16, 2015, 03:46:23 pm
Rather sure that that wasent there before... Ahwell.You can look at the post, it's never been edited.
Post by: QuakeIV on September 16, 2015, 04:29:26 pm
Also shit, did I die or something?
Post by: Taricus on September 16, 2015, 04:34:59 pm
Will we get an epilogue on what we did after we escaped/killed high command/whetever else?
Post by: QuakeIV on September 16, 2015, 04:51:38 pm
Post by: Baffler on September 16, 2015, 05:22:04 pm
Spoiler: Epilogue (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on September 16, 2015, 05:41:22 pm
Post by: Sensei on September 16, 2015, 06:41:21 pm
But yeah, either way I'd like to leave the setting primed for another round, when Forenia goes up against Tropico or the Nazis or whatever. Not that that will be happening soon.
Post by: Taricus on September 17, 2015, 12:08:17 am
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2015, 12:37:18 am
Post by: Sensei on September 17, 2015, 06:11:31 am
It is February, 1936. The dust has mostly settled since the Battle of the Embassy. As word spread of High Command's willingness to betray their trusted generals, spies and engineers as scapegoats for the war, soldiers turned to the rebel faction. People directly loyal to High Command themselves renounced their loyalty when High Command was killed- the charisma and leadership of High Command depended on a steady stream of propaganda and scapegoats, and the scapegoat supply had been dwindling rapidly since the end of the war. A few nationalists have continued fighting, but they have retreated to the mountains and remote places. The Arstotzkans are led by a former engineer who escaped from prison, and the Moskurgs by one of the old generals. To most of Forenia, though, these are just crazy people in the hills. Civilians are becoming comfortable with the idea of peace, and soldiers have begun returning home to begin the rebuilding process. Much of former Moskurg's territory is in ruins, and Arstotzka's economy is spread thin from pouring all available resources into weapons, and every man that can be spared into the army. There is little government though, the Rebels mostly served to evict High Command without a strong plan from there. Moskurg citizens have returned to Moskurg territory and Arstotzkan citizens to Arstotzkan territory, with only the beginnings of a trade system between the two population centers.
Civilian Life
As both nations rebuild, technology is naturally spreading between them. Travel on the damaged road and rail system in central Forenia can be trying, but some merchants make great sums of money bringing things back and forth. Moskurg (now simply North Forenia, all the use of Moskurg and Arstotzka to describe the continent's two major cities persists) has enjoyed the use of gas grills since shortly after flamethrowers became common on the front lines, and Moskurg citizens cook kebabs, seafood and American-style hamburgers and sausage in their yards under the warm sun. Gas is beginning to see use in Arstotzka as indoor heating. Moskurg's civilian sector also manufactures the best radios, batteries, telescopes and lenses on Forenia, all of which is highly desirable in Arstotzka. Moskurg also has seen the invention of several varieties of mechanical calculator for business and scientific use, which are highly sought after throughout the continent. Moskurg's fine kitchen cutlery is exported to Arstotzka and countries outside of Forenia. Arstotzka's motor vehicles are regarded as the best in Forenia, and Moskurg's citizens eagerly buy them up when they are available in favor of Moskurg knock-offs (with the exception of the Tiger truck). Arstotzkan fireworks and rockets are a very popular import in Moskurg, a staple at parties. Most aircraft in use are of Arstotzkan design.
Radio broadcasting has begun to grow into a business in Forenia, complete with advertisements, and music not written with the express goal of glorifying national leaders. Astronomy has grown into a popular hobby, and Forenian astronomers (not to mention those in the rest of the world) are fascinated with nothing more than AS-SS1935X, The Star in Front of the Moon. After its launch, the formerly secret Rocket Club had eagerly told the world about their near-achievement. Now Forenians speculate about the nature of the craft and its crew- could they have survived the forces in the launch? How much food, water and air can you really fit into a spacecraft that size? When you look at it through a telescope, can you see movement through a porthole, or is it just a trick of the light? These questions might never be answered, the Rocket Club has had no success finding the resources to build another rocket without a central government to take it from the people, and everything is a bit scarce as cities are rebuilt from rubble. The massive amounts of surplus weaponry has led to shooting sports, hunting, and such all being popular for Forenian civilians. Crimes like armed robbery often turn into shootouts with automatic weaponry, or even tanks. Collateral damage (from violent crime or drunken tank joyrides) is a common occurrence. Law enforcement is largely carried by community-appointed sheriffs, vigilantes and mercenaries. Surplus weapons have found their way all over the world into unscrupulous hands, unregulated by any real government, and Forenia gains an international reputation as an arms dealer to pirates, mercenaries and gangsters.
The Outside World
Japan left the League of Nations after their embarrassment with the invasion of Manchuria. Hitler's Nazi Germany is gaining power, and even now his AS-AR34-armed soldiers are marching into the Rhineland in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Most of the western world is still reeling from the great depression, the United States especially, where the dust bowl rages. Some people come to Forenia to help rebuild, or to make money buying surplus weapons and selling them internationally. Their cost or benefit to Forenia is hotly debated, and as has been historically the case, these arguments are occasionally settled with flamethrowers. Stalin is making steady changes to Russian society, building industry and purging everyone who looks at him funny.
A New Constitution
All of this leads up to the important bit: The former Rebel Alliance has gathered to draft a constitution for the new government of United Forenia. The nation is in need of leadership to keep its populace safe, build roads and rails and runways, provide services like police, firemen and hospitals, and regulate trade and immigration, among other things. The people know this, and are supportive of leadership from the people who helped orchestrate the downfall of the old High Command. There are many questions to be answered though- What form will the leadership take- a parliament, a presidency, or something else? The judicial system? How will taxes be gathered, and what civic services will be controlled by the government? This concerns not just traditional things like power and police and transportation, but also education, scientific research, social security and health regulations on those American hamburgers people are importing. How big of an army should be kept, and should cities keep militia? Will immigrants require passports that become increasingly complicated with each day? Perhaps more importantly, how will new laws be made and the constitution be amended?
It falls, in part, to you to draft a new constitution for United Forenia. If you did not die (or hell, even if you did, you could justifiably be a different character), and wish to return to Forenia, you may write a constitution, propose changes, and vote in favor one. As one of High Command's "guilty parties", Engineers are welcome at the drafting table. However, it is not only you voting. The generals and spies are present, as well as governors, businessmen, rebel leaders, and some other people you don't immediately recognize. Some of them have expressed interest in passing a constitution sooner rather than later. Therefore, a constitution may be passed without a majority of player votes, provided the other people present like it. When the constitution is passed, it will affect the nature of Forenia (either in great detail or abstractly) in future forum games, should I in fact do a future forum game in the setting.
I will watch the thread for the next week or so and pick out a constitution with majority votes, or that I like, when I feel like it. I might not even come back to this setting. Maybe I'll do something where players run a business instead of an army, competing for market share in manufacturing guns, cars or what-have-you. We shall see.
Post by: andrea on September 17, 2015, 07:33:09 am
The power is held by a parliament, who elects a government. The nation of forenia is divided in administrative regons, each of which sends a representative to the parliament. How this representative is selected, however, is entirely up to the region. It can be elected, nominated , hereditary or other, according to each region's customs and history.
also, everything will be in metric system (and so the war begins anew)
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2015, 07:48:16 am
also, everything will be in metric system (and so the war begins anew)+1. This is most important. Absolutely no substitutes.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Ghazkull on September 17, 2015, 07:54:50 am
When the quarrelsome Arstotzkans brought up the idea of Metric system he grinned inwardly. Oh this would be good, he could use this premise to start a new War.
"I will of course support our Forenian Brothers in using the Metric System, the Imperial One sucked anyway."
Hehehe...now only to wait for them to tear at each others throats.
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2015, 07:57:46 am
Post by: Ghazkull on September 17, 2015, 08:55:54 am
Post by: Taricus on September 17, 2015, 10:56:58 am
Post by: Sheb on September 17, 2015, 11:09:32 am
Post by: Taricus on September 17, 2015, 11:19:27 am
Post by: Baffler on September 17, 2015, 11:24:01 am
There is no single Imperial system. I propose we create a new Forenian Imperial system, where all units have size that make sense in metric (so a 0,5l pint, a 1 km mile, a 500 g pound and so one.)
This system is alright with me, provided the pint remains 0.568L. It seems unusual that we would write our system of measurements into our constitution, but the politicians should have expected this when they invited engineers to help draft it I suppose.
Post by: Aseaheru on September 17, 2015, 11:44:58 am
Post by: Sheb on September 17, 2015, 11:47:54 am
Post by: Taricus on September 17, 2015, 11:56:13 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 17, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
I find it kinda odd that Moskurg is known for mechanical computers when they where developed by Arstotska... Ahwell.Our computers were utilized for decryption and encryption processes. As such, they were probably hidden as state secrets.
Post by: Baffler on September 17, 2015, 12:11:02 pm
I find it kinda odd that Moskurg is known for mechanical computers when they where developed by Arstotska... Ahwell.
The only thing that could be called a computer I see on your list is the AS-DC29 that processes the ciphers the Tiger's Whisper creates. If the DC29 is a computer, then the Tiger's Whisper generating the codes certainly is as well.
Also, targeting calculator stronk.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 17, 2015, 12:17:48 pm
Anyway, the DC-29 is far more complex than the Tiger's Whispher. After all, it has to decode messages without knowing the passcode.
Post by: evilcherry on September 17, 2015, 12:25:20 pm
The DC-29 was originally supposed to be a series of computers.Both are mechanical computers. But certainly the Bumblebee is another type of computer. So Moskurg had two. Arstotzka one.
Anyway, the DC-29 is far more complex than the Tiger's Whispher. After all, it has to decode messages without knowing the passcode.
I can also see some serious sports rivalry. Eternal Derby anyone?
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2015, 03:51:16 pm
As a counter-proposal to entirely using the metric system straight off, I would propose a duel system, with metric as the primary system. This is more to ensure that forenian products are able to reach the largest amount of people they can, given that a lot of the world still uses the imperial system.Absolutely not. The longer we keep the imperial system (even as part of a dual system), the longer we languish in a state of backwards inefficiency.
There is no single Imperial system. I propose we create a new Forenian Imperial system, where all units have size that make sense in metric (so a 0,5l pint, a 1 km mile, a 500 g pound and so one.)A third system!? Sweet Mary mother of God have you no decency!?
Post by: Elfeater on September 17, 2015, 06:27:13 pm
There is no single Imperial system. I propose we create a new Forenian Imperial system, where all units have size that make sense in metric (so a 0,5l pint, a 1 km mile, a 500 g pound and so one.)I like this
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 17, 2015, 09:32:18 pm
All in all, I am salty.
Post by: Sensei on September 17, 2015, 09:57:09 pm
Post by: Playergamer on September 17, 2015, 09:57:50 pm
Post by: Taricus on September 17, 2015, 09:59:42 pm
Post by: Sensei on September 17, 2015, 10:06:26 pm
My next forum game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=153132.0) has commenced. It's a rules-lite suggestion game.
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2015, 10:57:51 pm
Post by: Kot on September 18, 2015, 08:16:30 am
Post by: Taricus on September 18, 2015, 10:40:54 am
Post by: Baffler on September 18, 2015, 01:58:48 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on September 18, 2015, 02:10:43 pm
A little problem with that: Most of the civilised world uses imperial still. Hence why I proposed the dual system.We did not declare independence so many years ago to once again declare ourselves thralls of the British imperium, by adopting the system that bears it's name.
Post by: Taricus on September 18, 2015, 05:52:33 pm
Post by: Andres on September 18, 2015, 07:02:21 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Also, the country should be named Arstotzka because the capital is Arstotzka and there is already a country with the same name as the continent it's in (Australia). There's also the fact that Arstotzka won the war and everything.
Post by: heydude6 on September 18, 2015, 07:05:13 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on September 18, 2015, 07:09:20 pm
Reduces stress.
Post by: evilcherry on September 18, 2015, 07:10:30 pm
The capital city should be Arstotzka because it suffered the least damage in the war and already has a good, efficient bureaucracy. Also it has far less distasteful tiger statues.This is a recipe for renewed war.
EDIT: Also, the country should be named Arstotzka because the capital is Arstotzka and there is already a country with the same name as the continent it's in (Australia). There's also the fact that Arstotzka won the war and everything.
Post by: coleslaw35 on September 18, 2015, 07:42:05 pm
I vote we build a new city for the capital, in either the jungle or the plains.
Reduces stress.
This, please. That way, we can move on to the important parts of our new Constitution.
Post by: Andres on September 18, 2015, 07:48:28 pm
Kind of the point. I prefer the Forever War (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForeverWar) setting. Even if it's accepted, I'll be glad because Arstotzka would've won.The capital city should be Arstotzka because it suffered the least damage in the war and already has a good, efficient bureaucracy. Also it has far less distasteful tiger statues.This is a recipe for renewed war.
EDIT: Also, the country should be named Arstotzka because the capital is Arstotzka and there is already a country with the same name as the continent it's in (Australia). There's also the fact that Arstotzka won the war and everything.
Post by: Taricus on September 18, 2015, 09:56:56 pm
Post by: Funk on September 18, 2015, 10:14:31 pm
I vote we build a new city for the capital, in either the jungle or the plains.A new city on the plains.
Reduces stress.
This, please. That way, we can move on to the important parts of our new Constitution.Well what's the important parts?
Regulating rocket bikes?
Arms control?
Post by: Taricus on September 18, 2015, 10:21:45 pm
Post by: Funk on September 18, 2015, 11:07:18 pm
Not to mention our arms industry brings in much need cash.
Instead we should have a system of licensing.
Spoiler: Firearms licensing system (click to show/hide)
Post by: Taricus on September 18, 2015, 11:27:04 pm
Post by: Sheb on September 19, 2015, 05:01:25 am
Post by: Kot on September 19, 2015, 05:15:34 am
Oh they can still have shooting sports. So long as they're using horsekillers or nosin-magants :PNO.
USING OVERSIZED MACHINE GUNS IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR SOCIETY, SO IS ARAC RACING.
It will also come in handy if someone attacks us.
Post by: Funk on September 19, 2015, 05:17:54 am
So you can have a tank before you can own a pistol?Yes but with out the guns.
Post by: Sheb on September 19, 2015, 05:44:32 am
Spoiler: UF-C-01 (click to show/hide)
Anything missing?
Post by: Kot on September 19, 2015, 05:55:43 am
Slightly Taller High Command for Engineers.Spoiler: UF-C-01 (click to show/hide)
Anything missing?
Post by: Sensei on September 19, 2015, 06:20:42 am
3.1) Given the previous occupations of many of Forenia's engineers, it is highly possible the debates end up being solved by the application of experimental weaponry. The Forenian government is not to limit the Engineers' access to weapons. It can however sell the right to the broadcasting of the Engineers sessions.You're just trying to set up for another forum game. :P
Post by: Andres on September 19, 2015, 06:31:33 am
Should be called Supreme Command.Spoiler: UF-C-01 (click to show/hide)
Anything missing?
Post by: Kot on September 19, 2015, 06:33:04 am
Post by: Andres on September 19, 2015, 06:44:07 am
Foreign policy and defence should remain in the hands of Arstotzka and Moskurg to continue competition between them (even if it's only friendly competition now. Disgusting.)
Post by: Aseaheru on September 19, 2015, 07:49:03 am
Post by: Sheb on September 19, 2015, 07:57:46 am
3.1) Given the previous occupations of many of Forenia's engineers, it is highly possible the debates end up being solved by the application of experimental weaponry. The Forenian government is not to limit the Engineers' access to weapons. It can however sell the right to the broadcasting of the Engineers sessions.You're just trying to set up for another forum game. :P
I might run this, yeah. :p
Post by: evilcherry on September 19, 2015, 08:43:36 am
Sensha-do, anyone?3.1) Given the previous occupations of many of Forenia's engineers, it is highly possible the debates end up being solved by the application of experimental weaponry. The Forenian government is not to limit the Engineers' access to weapons. It can however sell the right to the broadcasting of the Engineers sessions.You're just trying to set up for another forum game. :P
I might run this, yeah. :p
Post by: Kot on September 19, 2015, 08:53:05 am
My tank is ready.Sensha-do, anyone?3.1) Given the previous occupations of many of Forenia's engineers, it is highly possible the debates end up being solved by the application of experimental weaponry. The Forenian government is not to limit the Engineers' access to weapons. It can however sell the right to the broadcasting of the Engineers sessions.You're just trying to set up for another forum game. :P
I might run this, yeah. :p
Post by: evilcherry on September 19, 2015, 09:09:22 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehhitnnB22kMy tank is ready.Sensha-do, anyone?3.1) Given the previous occupations of many of Forenia's engineers, it is highly possible the debates end up being solved by the application of experimental weaponry. The Forenian government is not to limit the Engineers' access to weapons. It can however sell the right to the broadcasting of the Engineers sessions.You're just trying to set up for another forum game. :P
I might run this, yeah. :p
Prepare for the derp of the KV-2!
((Must say, their Russian are great for Japanese...))
Post by: Sheb on September 19, 2015, 09:11:59 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 19, 2015, 09:22:12 am
Is Girls un Panzr any good, or just an excuse to watch panties and tanks?Its more of an excuse to animate loads of tanks, just for the sake of it. And Japanese have an unhealthy obsession of WWII hardware (just like anything else).
Post by: Kot on September 19, 2015, 09:29:38 am
Post by: evilcherry on September 19, 2015, 09:55:45 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIY36UbDbQQ
Post by: Andres on October 02, 2015, 06:40:05 am
Soldiers:
-Patient: Moskurg soldiers excel at waiting in ambush, and carefully shooting from afar, giving them and advantage in long-range engagements.
-Patient: Moskurg soldiers excel at waiting in ambush
WHAT THE F*CK IS THIS HERESY REMOVE IMMEDIATELY DESTROY MOSKURG GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 13, 2015, 04:17:46 pm
Post by: Kot on November 13, 2015, 05:20:00 pm
Post by: Sensei on November 23, 2015, 05:55:01 am
No matter. Should be about time for one last update, when I get around to it...
Post by: Kot on November 23, 2015, 10:24:07 am
I see you guys haven't exactly drawn up a constitution.We did.
It's like this: Glory. All Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: Taricus on November 23, 2015, 04:43:38 pm
Post by: Andres on November 23, 2015, 04:50:46 pm
Post by: Kot on November 23, 2015, 05:24:16 pm
Post by: Sensei on November 24, 2015, 09:02:24 am
It is now 1937, and after a time of confusion, the government of United Forenia has begun to function.
The Constitution
The broad strokes of Forenia's constitution have been laid out by the military engineers who helped bring about the outcome of the war, but this is almost honorary; all of the fine details are worked out by bickering men in suits... who are they, exactly? Some are generals and military officers, who still exchange insults with their former foes, from either nation or the rebel army. A few are common folk with a lot to say, who've managed to get into the parliament hearings. Most, however, are faceless civil functionaries who you've never seen before in your life. They probably spent most of their time following the old High Command's orders in one palace or the other and somehow not only avoided being hung after last year's coup d'etat, but negotiated their way into a position where they still have a say in government. Oh sure, every single one says they supported the rebellion, but they do so with a unanimity that's impossible to believe.
The government now follows a system where both states (Moskurg and Arstotzka) have a parliament, but there is a third federal parliament called the Supreme Command, who decide federal issues such as foreign policy as a committee, or by sub-committees they have the freedom to appoint. The first sub-committee is the Department of Engineers, who decide upon federal engineering standards from their luxurious beach-side offices (one detail of government the engineers were very insistent upon). The charter is on display for the public in the Supreme Command building, and while there is no clause about using trial by combat with experimental weaponry, rumors persist that there is such a thing on the back of the charter, where you can't see it. Metric is chosen as the federal standard system of measurement, power lines run with AC current (DC being impractical to change voltages), and a massive six-lane highway is made to run up and down the east side of Forenia.
An arms control system has been put in place where all firearms must be registered and their trade reported, with special permits for armored vehicles and artillery. However, the registry office is overwhelmed and unregistered guns aren't difficult to find, so this is rarely enforced. A standing Forenian army is raised, and soldiers are shuffled between bases in either state on the continent so as to prevent groups forming along national lines within the military. The economy on the island begins to flourish again as citizens travel up and down the highway and buildings are rebuilt, and some war factories begin instead manufacturing home appliances and farming equipment. The finer points of law vary rather significantly between the two states, with Arstotzkan drivers finding themselves chastised for igniting rocket boosters on Moskurg roads, and Moskurg travelers surprised to find fisticuffs are not acceptable as remediation for a poor refund policy in Arstotzkan stores. Taxes are paid to the state, and then states pay tax to the federal government for use in military matters ("offense spending, payable to the Department of Offense") and federal projects.
There is little real technological advancement during this time, but the engineers are kept busy overseeing construction, reverse-engineering refrigerator technology from the United States, converting factories from making tanks to tractors (whilst keeping them ready to go back to tanks again, including a scrapped project for tractors which could have armor and a turret quickly attached at any time) and converting Moskurg-style train tracks to Arstotzkan-style tank tracks, which are three centimeters wider. The AS-SS1935X still orbits the moon, and no real attempt has been made to recover it, except a tragic incident orchestrated by an Arstotzkan farmer with two 35,000 liter tanker trailers of diesel fuel.
The world outside Forenia ticks on. Nazi Germany is still on the rise, its soldiers being armed with AS-AR34 rifles. Japan has invaded China, capturing Beijing, and Russia has made a pact to support China. The civil war in Tropico has ended, again. The Spanish civil war has begun. Ronald Reagan has signed an acting contract with Warner Brothers. Amelia Earhart successfully flew around the world in a modified AS-DB-HF. The Hindenburg crashes, putting an end worldwide to the era of airships.
Tech List
I should probably tally up all the tech and designs we're left with, but I'm tired. Maybe later.
The Future
The above words describe the small continent of Forenia as we leave it, in late 1937. The nations are united, the economy is stable, a new government and army is formed. The world around it has been altered slightly by its presence, but for now history mostly stays its course.
I may continue the setting from here, but it will not be soon. If you have been inspired to make your own forum game based off of the mechanics or world of this one then by all means, do so, and feel free to leave a link- I might enjoy reading it. Maybe you can even be the one to continue the main story from here, or chronicle the arms race in Tropico from 1910 onward.
To everyone: Thanks for playing.
Post by: coleslaw35 on November 24, 2015, 10:17:43 am
Was a pleasure playing with/against all of you! It was certainly a fun experience, even if it seemed like Moskurg was losing :P
Thanks for running this, Sensei!
Post by: andrea on November 24, 2015, 01:09:11 pm
Artotzka saved amelia earhart through superior plane building! ( and perhaps doomed the world with supernazis, but lets keep to the important things)
Post by: Powder Miner on November 24, 2015, 01:37:56 pm
( and perhaps doomed the world with supernazis, but lets keep to the important things)FREEDOM will come with heavy armored suits :V
Post by: Funk on November 24, 2015, 03:21:57 pm
Forenia VS the Third Reich, that's an idea for squeal.
I had a lot of fun playing this.
Post by: Kot on November 24, 2015, 04:04:28 pm
Post by: Sheb on November 24, 2015, 05:14:05 pm
Post by: Taricus on November 24, 2015, 05:20:11 pm
Post by: Kot on November 24, 2015, 05:24:40 pm
WE ARE ARSTOTZKA!
GLORY! ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
Post by: Taricus on November 24, 2015, 05:26:14 pm
Post by: Sensei on November 24, 2015, 05:36:28 pm
It's not Arstotzka who stabbed us back, it's the traitors who stabbed Arstotzka in back!
WE ARE ARSTOTZKA!
GLORY! ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
...so reads the text, newly painted on the hull of the AS-SS1935X, if the Arstotzkan Science Council is to be believed. They're the only ones with access to a telescope powerful enough to tell for sure, and they aren't letting the public into the observatory after someone with a forged press pass tried to scratch "Glory to Moskurg" into the priceless 750mm objective lens.
Post by: Kot on November 24, 2015, 06:01:56 pm
No you're not. Arstotzka's high command was Arstotzka :PArstotzka high command was Forenians, which now rule both old Arstotzka (only because they had no honour and attacked from suprise, not that piece of rock had any value to us) and Moskurg (because Moskurg is weak), but that's kind of okay, since Arstotzka still exists (the rocket counts as a soveregin territory and we proably have our own laws and whatnot) and enslaved Moskurgs now have to toil endlessly in the salt mines. Or that's what we belive in up here. But don't worry, one day we will come back, retake our precious homeland and we may even let the Moskurgs live and graciously allow them to work for us in salt mines because that's clearly what all Moskurgs want to do. And everyone will know the glory of the Arstotzkan people and their glorious waxed moustaches!
Post by: Andres on November 25, 2015, 04:51:52 pm
I'm glad to see that Arstotzka was properly recognised for its myriad of achievements in the epilogue. Truly, they have done far more good for Forenia than Moskurg was ever capable of doing.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Iituem on November 25, 2015, 07:06:14 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 25, 2015, 07:14:26 pm
Post by: andrea on November 25, 2015, 09:51:32 pm
Similarly, I had a great deal of fun working in the Moskurg propaganda machine.
Same here. The game wouldn't have been the same without all the semi-sincere, occasionally underhanded, always heated propaganda on both sides.
Post by: Funk on November 25, 2015, 10:02:33 pm
Post by: Sensei on November 25, 2015, 10:39:39 pm
on a scale of 1 to 10, sensei, how much BS heavy infantry armor is in AMURICA's futureThat depends, perhaps, on the events of some future forum game. I have already given though to how the non-historical technology you guys made (mainly metal infantry armor and early assault rifles) would affect the battles and tech development of the second world war, but I don't particularly want to divulge, in case I DO continue this setting and people are inclined to base their decisions on what I say now.
Post by: andrea on November 25, 2015, 11:47:47 pm
Both sides propaganda was really allot of fun and made us in to more than team A and B.It was also great fun to write! Plus, the competition was always high due to worthy opponents like iituem. He was very good, for a moskurg.
Post by: Kot on November 26, 2015, 11:16:45 am
Post by: Kashyyk on November 26, 2015, 12:43:16 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 28, 2015, 09:39:52 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on November 28, 2015, 09:50:05 pm
So what do people think the odds of someone deciding to take the plunge and make a tvtropes page for this?
tvtropes? What's that?
Post by: Happerry on November 28, 2015, 09:54:36 pm
If you do continue this setting, I'd love to play more in it someday. And who knows, my team might actually win if another game goes off!on a scale of 1 to 10, sensei, how much BS heavy infantry armor is in AMURICA's futureThat depends, perhaps, on the events of some future forum game. I have already given though to how the non-historical technology you guys made (mainly metal infantry armor and early assault rifles) would affect the battles and tech development of the second world war, but I don't particularly want to divulge, in case I DO continue this setting and people are inclined to base their decisions on what I say now.
Post by: Iituem on November 29, 2015, 01:22:26 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 29, 2015, 06:43:38 pm
It's funny, I did consider the premise of a Syndicate-style twenty minutes in the future Forenia game, in which the players are the design teams of two competing corporations and you're outfitting cyborgs, but I have nowhere near enough familiarity with weapons to make such a game so. :B
Yeah, going into future tech you really need to know what you are doing. Something someone could do is run a game set in 1939 with the players in charge of a small landlocked nation that is one of the ground zeroes for an invasion from Hell after a Salvation War (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheSalvationWar)-esque message occurs. The engineers of the nation (maybe have it be switzerland?) are tasked to design the tools to beat back the legions of Hell and potentially counter invade.
Post by: Kot on November 29, 2015, 06:59:11 pm
EDIT:
What about Great Martian War (https://vimeo.com/107454954)?
EDIT:
It's an actually cool "documentary" made for History Channel (well, that's still much better than whatever rednecks they show right now, and is actually cool, if not very historical) which is actually cool.
Post by: Sensei on April 23, 2016, 03:50:57 am
Want more Arms Race?
I've started another Arms Race Game- it's here (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/arms-race-main-thread-1910-competitive-quest.387223/) on the Spacebattles forums. This takes place on its own fictitious continent, Turbados, which may one day rival Forenia in a Spacebattles VS Bay12 war. Regardless of this, anyone who wants to play more Arms Race is welcome to join over there, and the game could use a few enthusiastic players.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on April 24, 2016, 06:59:30 am
Quote
This takes place on its own fictitious continent, Turbados, which may one day rival Forenia in a Spacebattles VS Bay12 war.With Turbados starting half century behind techwise I strongly doubt that such war can be interesting. They need to do something outstanding to catch up.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 24, 2016, 10:23:36 am
QuoteThis takes place on its own fictitious continent, Turbados, which may one day rival Forenia in a Spacebattles VS Bay12 war.With Turbados starting half century behind techwise I strongly doubt that such war can be interesting. They need to do something outstanding to catch up.
Them being the ones with the only actual navy may make up for their deficiency in ground-based tech.
Post by: Aseaheru on April 24, 2016, 01:34:18 pm
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on April 24, 2016, 01:49:59 pm
Post by: Taricus on April 24, 2016, 01:53:55 pm
Post by: Sensei on April 09, 2017, 10:40:34 pm
I am now preparing for a new war to start. Forenia has been attacked by foreign invaders from Cannala, a nation of dirty pirates, who shelled the capital unprovoked with powerful battleships. These Cannalans will be played by people from another forum. The game will start approximately May 1st, if everything goes to plan.
First however, we have some preparations to make. I have proposed some new rules for the game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156417.msg7384952#msg7384952) in the Arms Race Discussion Thread. Go catch up on that starting from the post I linked if you have suggestions or want to weigh in.
You may also be interested to know we have a new avenue for discussion: There is now a Discord server (https://discord.gg/ejE9j2w) dedicated to the Arms Race game. Aseaheru is hosting it, and there are public chat channels as well as chat channels which are private to each faction. Aseaheru, Zanzetzukan and I are admins and can assign people to factions. There are still some bugs to work out, and of course a Discord splits up the discussion a little bit and makes it hard to read back through old discussion, so this may be a temporary arrangement. Those of you who'd rather not join the Discord can rest assured that design proposals and votes will only be tallied on the forum, so you won't be left out.
Before the war starts, you have some tasks!
United Forenia will need a flag! We are accepting new proposals immediately.
In addition to a flag, United Forenia should have a "banner" in her colors for people to use in their forum signature. This is a practice started in the War on Turbados. A banner consists of five ALT+219 █ characters in the national colors, like this:
Banner of Juraki Shogunate: █████
Banner of Cannala: █████
Code: [Select]
Banner of Juraki Shogunate: [COLOR=#ff0000]█[COLOR=#ffffff]█[COLOR=#ff0000]█[COLOR=#ffffff]█[COLOR=#ff0000]█[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
Banner of Cannala: [COLOR=#000000]█[COLOR=#0000ff]█[COLOR=#b30000]█[COLOR=#ffff00]█[COLOR=#00b300]█[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]Last, but not least, you may want to begin discussing now which weapons you will use in the coming war. You have access to the whole Arstotzkan and Moskurg armory, but you will want to remove redundant weapons. You may also get a bonus design before the start of the war; I am still deciding this.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 10, 2017, 03:13:12 am
I missed the first game, obviously, but Iituem's Wands Race has gotten me very interested in the concept.
Anyway, for a Forenian flag, how about something simple like
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
To whit, a combination of the constituent nation's flags. Like the Union Jack.
Which I guess would make the banner █████
Regarding weaponry, is there a list of the weapons the two sides had at the end?
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 03:42:16 am
Also that flag is eye-searing. Use a lighter tone of blue whilst replacing the red with a darker shade?
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 10, 2017, 03:54:34 am
There is indeed a list of all the weapons.Great.
...
Where?
Quote
Also that flag is eye-searing. Use a lighter tone of blue whilst replacing the red with a darker shade?That flag is literally based on the existing flags. Although I suppose the clash of red and blue makes the colours stand out more than on the originals.
I might edit it later.
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 03:55:18 am
Post by: Devastator on April 10, 2017, 03:55:36 am
..but I'll pass, due to getting zero input from either the last game or the current game. And being on discord.
Post by: andrea on April 10, 2017, 03:58:02 am
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 03:58:15 am
Post by: Andres on April 10, 2017, 05:36:56 am
Post by: Kot on April 10, 2017, 06:30:56 am
Spoiler: The only true flag of Forenia (click to show/hide)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 10, 2017, 07:45:38 am
Come now. Nationalism is outlawed in Forenia, being as it is a foolish mindset held only by primitive savages.Spoiler: The only true flag of Forenia (click to show/hide)
We must instead embrace Continentalism, the ideology of the future. Glory to Forenia (which is totally a continent)!
I made a more muted version of the combination flag;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EDIT: And a banner reflecting those colours:
█████
Code: [Select]
[COLOR=#1F219E]█[/color][COLOR=#ffffff]█[/color][COLOR=#FFD335]█[/color][COLOR=#ffffff]█[/color][COLOR=#B73F2F]█[/color]
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 10, 2017, 08:19:32 am
Come now. Nationalism is outlawed in Forenia, being as it is a foolish mindset held only by primitive savages.Spoiler: The only true flag of Forenia (click to show/hide)
We must instead embrace Continentalism, the ideology of the future. Glory to Forenia (which is totally a continent)!
I made a more muted version of the combination flag;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hmm... Maybe put a tiger within the star so there's a bit more balance between the Arstotskan and Moskurg contributions to the flag.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 10, 2017, 08:21:22 am
Post by: S34N1C on April 10, 2017, 08:24:46 am
I like itCome now. Nationalism is outlawed in Forenia, being as it is a foolish mindset held only by primitive savages.Spoiler: The only true flag of Forenia (click to show/hide)
We must instead embrace Continentalism, the ideology of the future. Glory to Forenia (which is totally a continent)!
I made a more muted version of the combination flag;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 10, 2017, 12:56:16 pm
I support it, gives off that nice patriotic feel.I like itCome now. Nationalism is outlawed in Forenia, being as it is a foolish mindset held only by primitive savages.Spoiler: The only true flag of Forenia (click to show/hide)
We must instead embrace Continentalism, the ideology of the future. Glory to Forenia (which is totally a continent)!
I made a more muted version of the combination flag;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on April 10, 2017, 01:13:21 pm
We should have like a simple flag. Like, with... red... gold...
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 04:51:59 pm
I deliberately gave it more of an Arstotzkan feel than Moskurger, since Arstotzka won the war, and would thus have more of a say in the creation of the new flag.Technically neither side won the war, what with the rebels coming in first in a surprise victory :P
EDIT: The flag could use a more muted star too. And maybe a tiger. All are equal in the new forenia!
Post by: coleslaw35 on April 10, 2017, 04:54:40 pm
I deliberately gave it more of an Arstotzkan feel than Moskurger, since Arstotzka won the war, and would thus have more of a say in the creation of the new flag.Technically neither side won the war, what with the rebels coming in first in a surprise victory :P
EDIT: The flag could use a more muted star too. And maybe a tiger. All are equal in the new forenia!
Technically, sure, neither side won. However, Arstotzka was well on its way to victory and, had the rebels not acted, would've surely emerged the inevitable victor.
EDIT: Of course, it's not about who did or didn't win. We're together now to fight against the pirates, not ourselves.
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 04:59:04 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 10, 2017, 06:06:21 pm
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 06:34:17 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 10, 2017, 07:51:16 pm
considering arstotzka won, i think that seems fair
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 07:59:04 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 10, 2017, 08:27:12 pm
Or, jsut use this old suggestion.
How about this for a united Forenian flag? If someone should ever actually win the war.
(http://flag-designer.appspot.com/gwtflags/SvgFileService?d=9&c1=2&c2=7&c3=7&o=2&c4=0&s=3&c5=5)
Moskurg blue and Arstotzkan crimson symbolize the constituent Forenian nations. The black bar is a remembrance of the conflict of their history, but it is set behind the bright rising sun which represents the glory of our shared future.
Post by: Taricus on April 10, 2017, 08:30:12 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on April 10, 2017, 09:28:10 pm
Why not both? Two tiger rampant facing eachother, one overlaying star and other overlayed with one.
Or, jsut use this old suggestion.How about this for a united Forenian flag? If someone should ever actually win the war.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg blue and Arstotzkan crimson symbolize the constituent Forenian nations. The black bar is a remembrance of the conflict of their history, but it is set behind the bright rising sun which represents the glory of our shared future.
I, personally, prefer this flag, though I suggest that the sun be, perhaps, just a circle?
Post by: Light forger on April 10, 2017, 09:44:21 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 10, 2017, 09:45:10 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 10, 2017, 09:48:15 pm
/me wheels out the "why not both" launcher
Aren't you a Canallan Pirate?
Post by: Aseaheru on April 10, 2017, 09:55:40 pm
Post by: Sensei on April 10, 2017, 10:27:18 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 10, 2017, 11:11:29 pm
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 11, 2017, 02:19:21 am
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1llYahd3AsqfvugKsS-jpA0ufTHXMaU3Ilto8Qq1pTW8/edit#gid=0
I would be fine with either flag, although if we go with this one, I agree with the sun being a circle instead.Why not both? Two tiger rampant facing eachother, one overlaying star and other overlayed with one.
Or, jsut use this old suggestion.How about this for a united Forenian flag? If someone should ever actually win the war.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Moskurg blue and Arstotzkan crimson symbolize the constituent Forenian nations. The black bar is a remembrance of the conflict of their history, but it is set behind the bright rising sun which represents the glory of our shared future.
I, personally, prefer this flag, though I suggest that the sun be, perhaps, just a circle?
If not Forenian, please stop reading here.
Spoiler: No! Bad Cannalans. No pirates allowed (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on April 11, 2017, 03:04:21 am
You...YOU UTTER BASTARD PIG CRAP TRAITOR MOSKURG-LOVING BASTARDS!!! Does your depravity know no end!?!
It was us - true glorious Arstotzka! - to pioneer the field of the field of the submachine gun, and on the very first try result in the genius of the MC16. It was wonderful, excellent, glorious! But such was our talent for innovation, the spark of true brilliance in the light of the Arstotzkan soul that we went even further beyond that, and achieved true perfection in the form of the renowned and unbeatable MC16A!
But of course, no matter how pure, how precious something might be, there was those inferior, pig-filthy tiger-molesting Moskurgs, whose utter foulness was truly beyond all measure. So corrupted were their tiny minds, so enslaved to their ravenous envy, that they could not look upon the glory of the MC16A and the destruction it visited upon them and not desire it for themselves. And so instead of preserving what little of their pretence of honour remained, instead of designing their own (inevitably inferior) copy of our glorious design, they took what was rightful property of glorious Arstotzka and stole the designs! They whose perfidy had yet been unmatched in all the history of the world, stole our forged-in-righteousness design and perverted it to their own ends, making it in Imperial measurement factories and anti-christened with a name devised in the deepest darkest pits in the headquarters of what passes for a weapons design team: Cascade Sub-Machine Gun.
And now...the blood, sweat, and more blood poured into the design of the MC16A by hard-working, virtuous Arstotzkans into the efficient anti-Moskurg implement of war is now disrespected in the most grievous and shameful way possible. The new Forenia proves its Moskurg blood true, revealing the pure blackness of their hearts by their choice of the Cascade as the premiere submachine gun of their armed forces.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 11, 2017, 03:11:10 am
Post by: Devastator on April 11, 2017, 03:18:19 am
Nah, not much point in griping. Have fun. I'll go see if my predictions are right, without affecting the experiment.
Post by: Andres on April 11, 2017, 05:05:53 am
Yeah, we only chose it because it has slightly more flexibility in terms of drum size.MC16A has a choice between 30 and 54, while the Cascade only has 30.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 11, 2017, 06:22:34 am
Oh shoot, you're right. We misread that. Yeah, we should totally be using the MC16A.Yeah, we only chose it because it has slightly more flexibility in terms of drum size.MC16A has a choice between 30 and 54, while the Cascade only has 30.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Long live United Forenia.
Post by: Taricus on April 11, 2017, 06:25:26 am
Post by: Kot on April 11, 2017, 08:17:05 am
Spoiler: GLORY! GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA! (click to show/hide)
Post by: coleslaw35 on April 11, 2017, 02:47:33 pm
Spoiler: GLORY! GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA! (click to show/hide)
Good, but I think it's got way too much going on at once. Personally, I think you should simplify the tigers and swords and remove the words.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 11, 2017, 03:24:26 pm
Forenia has, since the end of the war, rapidly acquired a new national sport. The game of 'Forenian Football' (Or Forenian Soccer, depending on who you ask) is a pleasant game that all can enjoy. The rules specifically penalise violence.
Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, that doesn't sound like a national sport that either Moskurgers or Arstotzkans could get behind. Well, I never said that Forenian Football was the national sport. The national sport comes after a game of Forenian Football. For as soon as a game ends, fans pour out of the stadium, either already or soon to be drunk- and swiftly run into fans from the other team. Naturally, this results in fisticuffs, as the gentlemen (or ladies) have some disagreement as to which team is better, and which rules infractions the ref missed (the rules of FF being so complex that no-one can truly tell when this happens).
Yes, rioting is the new national sport of Forenia. For even though Nationalism is banned (in favour of Continentalism), after a few drinks the urge to fight those cold-hearted/tiger-loving bastards rears its ugly head. Fortunately, the rioting is only occasionally deadly, and only results in minor property damage, most of the time. And it gets the urge to fight each other out of Forenian's systems, so they can focus on fighting those BLOODY PIRATES.
Post by: Funk on April 11, 2017, 03:30:42 pm
Swap one of the tigers for a bear and put them both facing the star, the supporters trend to face inwards on most coat of arms.Spoiler: GLORY! GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA! (click to show/hide)
Good, but I think it's got way too much going on at once. Personally, I think you should simplify the tigers and swords and remove the words.
Post by: Kot on April 11, 2017, 04:26:30 pm
Oh, I had no idea. GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 11, 2017, 05:00:05 pm
My attempt at another board. Those guys not really into war games. But list is there yeah.
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 12, 2017, 01:29:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EDIT: Also a red and blue version, if you don't like purple;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 12, 2017, 01:37:29 pm
Post by: coleslaw35 on April 12, 2017, 02:57:54 pm
EDIT: Also a red and blue version, if you don't like purple;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Personally, I prefer this variant.
Post by: Kot on April 12, 2017, 03:02:37 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 12, 2017, 05:40:08 pm
1: Alliances so two teams of three nations. They design/ fund/ redo their country efforts and die rolls for results in theatres of war.
2: The original version. Each player controls one whole country in a alliance. And development points are earned by game play on a weekly basis.
Cost issues: Depends. As both have logistics so can afford more stuff. In general the more powerful something is. More expensive. Like only three super units a theatre pre nation at a time ( if you could afford that anyway.)
Post by: Taricus on April 12, 2017, 06:46:52 pm
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 13, 2017, 02:47:40 am
As for the styles in game with that techblust.I think maybe you meant to post this in the other thread? The one about arm race games in general. This is about a specific game.
1: Alliances so two teams of three nations. They design/ fund/ redo their country efforts and die rolls for results in theatres of war.
2: The original version. Each player controls one whole country in a alliance. And development points are earned by game play on a weekly basis.
Cost issues: Depends. As both have logistics so can afford more stuff. In general the more powerful something is. More expensive. Like only three super units a theatre pre nation at a time ( if you could afford that anyway.)
EDIT: Also a red and blue version, if you don't like purple;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Personally, I prefer this variant.
Okay that red and blue version is great Nuke!Okay, great. Anyone else got opinions on which flag we should use? Only Sensei is awaiting our decision with bated breath. Personally I kinda like the above version, so if it comes down to tiebreakers I'll vote for it, but I'd be fine with pretty much anything proposed so far.
Post by: Taricus on April 13, 2017, 03:44:23 am
Post by: Kot on April 15, 2017, 11:13:35 am
Spoiler: ALL GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA! (click to show/hide)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 15, 2017, 11:32:43 am
Post by: S34N1C on April 15, 2017, 12:35:03 pm
+1EDIT: Also a red and blue version, if you don't like purple;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Personally, I prefer this variant.
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 01:03:34 pm
I'm gonna toss my vote in for this one.+1EDIT: Also a red and blue version, if you don't like purple;Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Personally, I prefer this variant.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 15, 2017, 01:10:53 pm
Those flag options raise the question of what sort of government United Forenia has. Personally I'd prefer a flag that doesn't too strongly push us in one direction or another- if only because if we, for example, choose an obviously communist flag and then ally with the axis... well, it'd be awkward.
Just because the design might mirror what one nation uses does not mean we share that ideology.
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 04:02:31 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 15, 2017, 05:40:44 pm
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 15, 2017, 06:02:21 pm
Yeah the last two of Kot's three are very communist which would wierd if we allied with the axis. But the first one looks very nice and neutralish.The first one is based on a nazi flag.
:/
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 07:43:42 pm
Post by: Elephant Parade on April 15, 2017, 09:32:33 pm
Gonna be honest, I really don't like the idea of allying with the axis, so a blatantly nazi-based flag doesn't appeal to me... and probably wouldn't be particularly welcome on either bay12 or SB moderation either, for that matter.+1
I'm probably not going to be an active participant, but I think we should stay as far away from the Nazis as we can, when it's possible (and it certainly is possible, right now).
On an in-character note: why would Forenia create such a blatantly Nazi-inspired flag, anyway? It'd be kinda weird—imagine a country was founded today and its flag was a palette-swapped version of the Stars and Stripes.
Post by: Taricus on April 15, 2017, 10:02:51 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 15, 2017, 10:30:43 pm
That being said, someone has to be the "bad guys" - I don't see it any different than playing as the Germans in Call of Duty or Battlefield multiplayer.
Post by: Taricus on April 15, 2017, 10:32:38 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 15, 2017, 10:40:09 pm
Gonna be honest, I really don't like the idea of allying with the axis, so a blatantly nazi-based flag doesn't appeal to me... and probably wouldn't be particularly welcome on either bay12 or SB moderation either, for that matter.
There's a timeline being assembled, and suffice to say, we've pissed off the Americans quite often and helped the Central Powers and Axis a few times.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 15, 2017, 10:41:15 pm
Edit: ninj'd
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 11:09:29 pm
Post by: Taricus on April 15, 2017, 11:10:54 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 15, 2017, 11:15:10 pm
Not fully done, and Asea triggered a glitch that caused some data to be lost (now got a backup made, but someone may want to look over the current), but a good chunk of this Arms Race's information is in there. Only dealing with when things first showed up rather than tracking every single design and revision to keep things simple.
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 11:18:11 pm
And why's that? You want to be with the OTL's winners? :P'cause I don't want to think of Forenia as Buddies of Genocide. Kinda had a more lighthearted version of the country in mind I guess.
Post by: Taricus on April 15, 2017, 11:19:17 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 15, 2017, 11:25:27 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on April 15, 2017, 11:46:23 pm
Post by: Taricus on April 15, 2017, 11:55:42 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 16, 2017, 12:07:32 am
Post by: Powder Miner on April 16, 2017, 12:12:12 am
Which may be commie so that's not likely to be an option. Besides the chinese navy also has to get past the japs.Japanese have to get through the British and American navies.
Post by: Taricus on April 16, 2017, 12:21:10 am
Post by: Powder Miner on April 16, 2017, 12:44:59 am
Post by: Taricus on April 16, 2017, 12:50:14 am
Post by: Aseaheru on April 16, 2017, 01:37:33 am
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 16, 2017, 08:00:59 am
Hey, I'm fond of forenia too. But that's why I want to side with the heils :PCan't we just stay neutral, helping or hindering one side or the other whenever it is convenient? We have our own war to focus on, we can't be sending troops to fight in some stupid foreign war.
Spoiler: TOP SECRET, CLASSIFIED, PIRATE-FREE DOCUMENTS. FORENIANS ONLY (click to show/hide)
Post by: Azzuro on April 16, 2017, 08:17:32 am
Spoiler: CLASSIFIED (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 16, 2017, 12:53:02 pm
Here's a thought, we need a national anthem, so why not make it sso we join the side that has the composer of the composition we select for our national anthem.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 16, 2017, 01:20:21 pm
Post by: Baffler on April 16, 2017, 02:07:30 pm
Spoiler: GLORY! GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aseaheru on April 16, 2017, 02:20:16 pm
Thing is, Sensei has said that whenever one side joins one faction in the second world war, the other side automatically joins the other faction of the world war.
Rather sure he said "would probably side with the other". Course, thats also implies that there would be a grand total of two sides to be on, which is not all that likely with how different Asia is from OTL, tho significantly more likely from the point of view of Sensei needing to save time where possible...
Post by: NUKE9.13 on April 18, 2017, 02:43:42 am
The other side helpfully pointed out that we can use invite-only google docs to have a more permanent place to store ideas, at least until there is a dedicated thread that Cannalans won't be reading. I've started one, the link to which you can get by joining the Discord (https://discord.gg/ejE9j2w) (Which is real easy, as it turns out. I'd never used it before this).
Alternatively, I could PM you the link. But not if you're Canallan, obviously.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 19, 2017, 08:06:12 pm
'cause I don't want to think of Forenia as Buddies of Genocide. Kinda had a more lighthearted version of the country in mind I guess.
There's a plan being formed in the discord to prevent this. Don't know how buried it would be, but there is a plan being made.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 19, 2017, 08:16:06 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 19, 2017, 09:16:06 pm
Post by: Taricus on April 19, 2017, 09:17:48 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 19, 2017, 09:20:00 pm
Post by: Sensei on April 29, 2017, 03:51:36 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 29, 2017, 04:45:57 pm
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 04:47:57 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 29, 2017, 04:50:53 pm