Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2014, 12:14:36 am
Post by: NAV on February 06, 2014, 12:20:47 am
Post by: Xantalos on February 06, 2014, 12:21:57 am
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2014, 12:27:11 am
((Can we only tinker while our characters are in the VR?))Well...lets put it like this. This is a place to both use Tinker, and to talk about ideas and stuff for tinker while not physically in it. You can hang out here and plan stuff, but you won't have the full access to tools unless you're in vr.
Because god help me if I let you fucking use tinker while you're on mission. You might notice the rolls for chronic tinkerers going badly a statistically implausible amount of the time.
Post by: Lenglon on February 06, 2014, 12:38:24 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 12:39:56 am
Post by: Xantalos on February 06, 2014, 12:43:28 am
while on mission tinkerize a twin dual double monofiliment gauss amp cannon tank plane ship with quad everything and only a marginal relationship to physics that only costs two tokens and kills everything always.Good thing I'm not a tinkerer.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 12:53:12 am
while on mission tinkerize a twin dual double monofiliment gauss amp cannon tank plane ship with quad everything and only a marginal relationship to physics that only costs two tokens and kills everything always.you totally forgot the ultimate win button on the side that kills like everything ever
Post by: Xantalos on February 06, 2014, 12:54:32 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 12:55:49 am
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2014, 12:56:09 am
while on mission tinkerize a twin dual double monofiliment gauss amp cannon tank plane ship with quad everything and only a marginal relationship to physics that only costs two tokens and kills everything always.
Where's that lock thread button...
Do we move our current tinker projects here or keep going in R&R (just realised it acronymised to that)?Move them here, yeah.
That way I can safely ignore them.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 12:57:08 am
And I'll stop dragging out the joke too.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 06, 2014, 04:59:59 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 05:11:59 am
Unless PW makes a VR thread.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 06, 2014, 05:23:53 am
Since Simus is likely to create a better fusion warhead, I think Anton will still want to see his weapon realized - even if in a smaller form.
So, taking the original Token of Appreciation idea (I really need to come up with a less unwieldy name for it), it can be made it a pretty effective manpack missile.
"Hammerhead" sub-nuclear offensive warhead
Form-factor: 65x980mm spin-stabilized missile
Propellant: Standard self-oxidizing solid fuel mix
Payload: 200 grams Aster-Ex, 2x kinetic amp ("kinamp sandwich" setup) as initiator.
Choice of: direct impact plate, 1500 grams shaped tungsten carbide pellet filler, or 1800 grams depleted uranium shaped penetration slug, as contact medium.
Detonator: Choice of impact fuse, proximity fuse, and/or command detonator.
Operation: Missile self-stabilizes following launch using deflected exhaust gases to impart spin. 500 milliseconds after leaving the launcher, the missile is armed. Upon receiving detonation signal, the 200 grams of Aster-Ex explosive detonates, pushing the contact plate of the kinamp-sandwich initiator forward, crushing the mineral foam padding within the sandwich, and imparting the force of the explosion and the momentum of the missile into the first kinetic amplifier. The force is amplified, and transferred into the second kinetic amplifier, where it is amplified once more, and transferred into contact medium. The magnitude of the forces involved releases a significant amount of energy in all directions - shooter is advised to take cover if at less than medium range.
If equipped with direct contact plate, warhead transfers all energy directly into target, imparting significant momentum to outer layers of its surface, potentially causing massive damage, but limited by the composition of the surface struck.
If equipped with depleted uranium penetrator, warhead transfers energy into the penetrator, partially melting it and imparting it a velocity in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring massive armor-penetrating damage regardless of target composition.
If equipped with tungsten carbide pellet filler, warhead creates a cloud of superheated metalloid debris moving forward in a 60 degree cone at speeds in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring a wide area of effect and massive damage to soft targets, regardless of their thermal protection.
Primary advantage: Unlike conventional explosive and nuclear weapons, leaves the shooter in far less danger than the enemy due to the directed nature of the resulting explosion.
Disadvantage: High cost... what else? Token costs of approx. 10 per missile, production costs unknown.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 05:57:57 am
Electromagnetic Reactive Armour
Composition: The armour (usually just shortened to electric armour) is made up of two or more composite conductive plates separated by some space or by an insulating material, creating a high-power capacitor. In operation, a high-voltage power source charges the armour. When an incoming body penetrates the plates, it closes the circuit to discharge the capacitor, dumping a great deal of energy into the penetrator, which may vaporize it or even turn it into a plasma, significantly diffusing the attack. Very useful against deflecting kinetic-energy and light-based attacks but prone to electrical-based ones.
Cost: Entirely dependant on amount of layers. Purely an upgrade to existing armour systems. With enough layers, possibly able to take several LESHO shots to crack.
"Stag" Medium Assault tank:
Armour: Electromagnetic reactive armour supported by laser-dispersing armour ((I forget the name :-\))
Weapons: Dual mega (120mm) gauss cannons as main turret system, hull and coaxial coilguns for infantry suppression
Movement: 2 composite tracks.
Cargo:Operates at full combat potential at 4 men (one driver, one gunner, one reloader, one coilgunner), can hold maximum of 6 troopers inside.
Support:Auto-Repair Kit
Operation: The tank's electric armour is great for deflecting heavy kinetic and laser fire, including from non-nuclear missiles. This lets the tank act as heavy fire support for use in assaulting heavily fortified enemy positions on an open battlefield, where infantry would be destroyed.
Primary Advantage: Easily capable of assaulting enemy positions taking minimal damage.
Disadvantage: Expensive. Token costs unknown, Production costs unknown.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 06, 2014, 07:31:48 am
But actually worth doing.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 07:51:41 am
For sods, I said earlier that having different kinds of sod would be best, both to spread the risk of UWM having something that's supereffective against any one thing, and because having options is always nice. After mulling it over, here's what I came up with (note: probably too late to use for this mission, but maybe for future large-scale battles/missions like this):
Light infantry: Genemodded Sods
regular sods, but genemodded by Doc to be al-round better than their UWM counterparts.
Lightly armored, like UMW sods (though their genemods help a bit in their survivability.
Armed with low-tier Armory stuff, with some mid-tier things sprinkled in where necessary (e.g. gauss rifles and metal baton or monorazor)
Have some specialists in a squad, though usually formed into specialist-squads (e.g. sniper squad with modified gauss rifles instead of a sniper for every team).
These form the bulk of out army, and can be used in a variety of roles: backing up assault, garrisoning, maintaining a military presence where needed. They are cheap enough we can afford to station them all around.
Medium infantry: upgraded robobody sods
robobody sods, but with integrated exoskeleton. If possible, the one the Mk.II has (because extra dex bonus, though not sure if this counts without the rocket pods).
Has better armor than previous sods: not full battlesuit plate, but enough to survive a few gauss round impacts or concentrated laser fire, should give at least some protection to mid-tier weapons (so a quick sweep of cutting laser shouldn't cut the trooper in two, but a slow controlled sweep would do significant damage). Exact thickness and cost would be decided after VR testing. The exoskeleton helps with carrying the armor while retaining mobility.
Have an attachment port for either a jump pack (standard option, used most often), Mk.II pods (when more mobility is really necessary, not used standard to cut costs) or special equipment.
Armed with mid-tier Armory stuff, with some high-tier things or special equipment where necessary (e.g. rocket rifles/those sibilus things, kinetic amp as standard)
Also have some specialist squads, but upgraded forms of their genemod counterparts (e.g. robobody sniper squad carries Lesho instead of modified gauss rifle for the genemod sods)
These are focused attackers (as in, are very good at straight combat), there are way less of them than genemod sods (like say, 1 of these for every 5-10 of previous) and are used when we know there'll be heavy combat, or defending really important areas where we know the enemy will attack (or used to counterattack and flank the attackers). The reason I wouldn't make these our standard troopers is because you sometimes just need some boots on the ground, just to project a military presence or light garrisoning. these robosods would be good, but too expensive for such tasks, whereas genemod sods would be perfect (but less reliable in heavy combat).
Elite infantry: synthflesh sods
synthflesh bodies, standard ones
Good armor, but lightweight (maybe a bit Avatar armor to complement innate sythflesh protectiveness)
Armed with high-tier weapons (like coils guns and tesla sabres)
Even less numerous than previous (say 1 of these per 10-20 robobody sods) but almost no cost spared, these are for getting mission-critical objectives or. Pack the meanest punch in a small package.
A reason to do it like this is to have easy to use options: if you just go with genemod sods or standard robobody sods, it'll be unclear when to use which one, whereas now their roles are much clearer: elite sods for sabotage/high risk missions, assault sods for main combat and important objectives, genemod sods for everything else and backing up previous two.
Oh, and for stuff like battlesuit troops, I think it's better to add these to squads when necessary instead of standard, to cut costs and increase flexibility (otherwise you couldn't order a squad into a building without the battlesuit troopers always staying behind and being useless. But if you know what kind of battle to expect, you just add a battlesuit (or other specialized equipment, like gunner bots) to individual squads. Or create a full battlesuit squad, if it's needed).
Example engagement:
We need to take a big city with multiple objectives. First, the synthflesh sods infiltrate and take out critical locations (e.g. generators powering defense grid). Then the robosods attack, with help from armored units and backed-up by genemod sods. The,, once they breach the defensive line, genemod sods squads fan out and flank enemies/take lesser objectives (like communications tower), while the robosods continue the main assault (capturing the command base).
After the battle, the UWM tries to take back its city.
Synthflesh sods guard the main building or stay ready for quick counterattack, robosods defend the places the enemy will most likely attack from, while genemod sods support the above two. Luckily, the genemod sods are cheap/numerous enough to also place some squads all over town, to engage in stalling urban combat should the enemy break though or attack from an unexpected angle.
Specialized equipment (like battlesuits or drone pallets) are issued to either of the different flavor of sod, depending on need.
If we want, this could be the basic template for the whole ARM military.
Opinions?
and @ piecewise: is this doable, or are there game- or background-related reasons this wouldn't work/you wouldn't be ok for this?
Post by: BFEL on February 06, 2014, 09:15:52 am
Well RC, I have a Sod Idea to add:
KAMIKAZE SODS
Similar to regular sods, but unarmed except come with amps that they are trained to overload in the midst of the enemy.
Would come with Mk.II pods for extra mobility, and probably be genemodded by doc for maximum speed and given the ability to overload if "killed" assuming that is possible.
Would be lightly armored, relying on agility for defense.
Another possible version would be
TURRURIST!! Sods
Like the Kamikaze version, but with UWM sod armor and no special equipment/genemods, only the overloady amp.
Designed to blend in with normal UWM troops, navigate to a bases important areas and then asplode.
Could also create a "civilian" look-alike version if we wanted to REALLY get Terroristing.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 06, 2014, 09:47:41 am
Edit: Might be able to get the Doc to modify them to explode into Xan-like flesh monsters.
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 06, 2014, 10:21:03 am
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2014, 10:46:48 am
So, taking the original Token of Appreciation idea (I really need to come up with a less unwieldy name for it)...How about Toa?
Anyways...
piecewise: Is it okay to test simple, single ideas in the Tinker thread when we're not in Tinker? I have a couple ideas, but I'm not sure that even the sum total is worth spending a whole turn on given the limited time before the timeskip...
Post by: WhitiusOpus on February 06, 2014, 11:43:36 am
FRCT(Fast Response Combat Transport)
armour: Roughly 90mm thick alternating layers of battle suit plating, with additional signal layer of Electromagnetic Reactive armor. The rear of the vehicle would not have the reactive armor, making it slightly more vulnerable, as well as being the exit/entrance for the troopers.
weapons: 360 degree axle mounted Cutting laser on top mount, with access from the inside. Rapid fire gauss cannons mounted on either side (think pylons).
movement: Eight heavy duty tires (or current equivalent) with equivalent of run-flat ability, slightly armored with battle suit skirt overlapping. (I was thinking treads or hover ability, but that would not give the speed I think this needs)
Cargo: operates effectively with a crew of four, (2 for pylons, 1 driver, 1 laser operator) and a carrying capacity of 12 (16 including crew)
Operation: Used as simply a transport, this provides additional protection to the troops and occasionally a light assault vehicle.
advantage: well equipped and highly mobile, a good support unit when supported and able to transport infantry effectively.
disadvantages: lightly armored, expensive(?)
Spoiler: appearance (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 06, 2014, 11:51:46 am
Hmm. With all these sod-squads, we will need a way to move them around fairly quickly to meet threats.Already have APCs. Just stick a weapon turret on one and go.
FRCT(Fast Response Combat Transport
armour: Roughly 90mm thick alternating layers of battle suit plating, with additional signal layer of Electromagnetic Reactive armor. The rear of the vehicle would not have the reactive armor, making it slightly more vulnerable, as well as being the exit/entrance for the troopers.
weapons: 360 degree axle mounted Cutting laser on top mount, with access from the inside. Rapid fire gauss cannons mounted on either side (think pylons).
movement: Eight heavy duty tires (or current equivalent) with equivalent of run-flat ability, slightly armored with battle suit skirt overlapping. (I was thinking treads or hover ability, but that would not give the speed I think this needs)
Cargo: operates effectively with a crew of four, (2 for pylons, 1 driver, 1 laser operator) and a carrying capacity of 12 (16 including crew)
Operation: Used as simply a transport, this provides additional protection to the troops and occasionally a light assault vehicle.
advantage: well equipped and highly mobile, a good support unit when supported and able to transport infantry effectively.
disadvantages: lightly armored, expensive(?)Spoiler: appearance (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 11:56:35 am
But yeah, can't give them amps/manips (though kinetic amp should work, I think, not sure). What you could try though is ask the doc to design a sod that looks the same but removes a few organs and makes some others smaller, thereby making room for chest cavity nukes.
@tavik: what is supporting that thing? What is the frame and exoskeleton and such made of? Cause I'm not sure you can have something like that be mobile or stable without using synthflesh.
@whitius: we will indeed need vehicles like these. You can already buy stuff like this from the armory though, so maybe look up a design to use as a base to work of. Just an idea.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2014, 12:08:56 pm
(though kinetic amp should work, I think, not sure)Why wouldn't they? They don't need brains like manips or "true" amps do, just kinetic stuff.
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 06, 2014, 12:23:27 pm
@BFEL: well, uhh, I guess those sods would fall under the genemodded specialists group.Not sure yet what to make it out of. Though at least one configuration will use four or six for stabilisation while the standard config uses a roller blade style system on its feet to move at speed which would the the standard versions main aspect.
But yeah, can't give them amps/manips (though kinetic amp should work, I think, not sure). What you could try though is ask the doc to design a sod that looks the same but removes a few organs and makes some others smaller, thereby making room for chest cavity nukes.
@tavik: what is supporting that thing? What is the frame and exoskeleton and such made of? Cause I'm not sure you can have something like that be mobile or stable without using synthflesh.
@whitius: we will indeed need vehicles like these. You can already buy stuff like this from the armory though, so maybe look up a design to use as a base to work of. Just an idea.
Can you help with deciding what to make it out of without using synth flesh?
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2014, 12:31:07 pm
It would be less testing and more just asking me if it would work, but I guess thats ok.So, taking the original Token of Appreciation idea (I really need to come up with a less unwieldy name for it)...How about Toa?
Anyways...
piecewise: Is it okay to test simple, single ideas in the Tinker thread when we're not in Tinker? I have a couple ideas, but I'm not sure that even the sum total is worth spending a whole turn on given the limited time before the timeskip...
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 12:42:21 pm
Quote
@ piecewise: is this doable, or are there game- or background-related reasons this wouldn't work/you wouldn't be ok for this?
Referring to idea for how we build our army. If other players agree, is this possible in-game?
Spoiler: this (click to show/hide)
((Hmm, I'm kinda torn: I have an idea for an armored vehicle, but since there are already a wide array of such vehicles in ER background I'd be breaking my own tinker guideline of not designing things if there are existing templates already. Especially since those would probably be quite efficient (the UWM being a militarized government, I could imagine them taking great care in designing decent and efficient combat vehicles).
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2014, 01:21:02 pm
Neat.Anyways...It would be less testing and more just asking me if it would work, but I guess thats ok.
piecewise: Is it okay to test simple, single ideas in the Tinker thread when we're not in Tinker? I have a couple ideas, but I'm not sure that even the sum total is worth spending a whole turn on given the limited time before the timeskip...
At the moment, I have two ideas:
1. A nuclear explosive thingy small enough to be used as a bullet or other such projectile (likely a larger-caliber one), for when normal explosive rounds just aren't enough.
2. Synthflesh/Normalflesh hybrids. I have some ideas, but first I need to make sure this is possible and sane.
Post by: syvarris on February 06, 2014, 01:23:54 pm
Spoiler: SodTalk (click to show/hide)
@Piecewise!
This might be overstepping some bounds, but can I get a weight estimate for a cutting laser? I thought it was closer to an M2 HMG (~80 pounds), but it only requires a str of five to wield effectively, so I'm not sure.
Also, how advanced is generator miniaturization tech in ER? I'd think it's pretty good, considering generators that can power lasers are light, but that might just be magic efficient lasers. Could you get a 200 Horsepower nuclear generator that weighs twenty pounds? Sixty? A hundred? Two hundred?
((Damn it GWG, how did you convince me this thing is a good idea by arguing against it?))
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 02:23:40 pm
Armour: On par with Battlesuit
Weapons: Heavy gauss cannon as main turret system, and a coaxial rapid-fire rocketgun for infantry suppression.
Movement: 2 composite tracks.
Cargo: Fully AI controlled.
Operation: This tank is designed for infantry suppression in the open, allowing supporting infantry move ahead.
Primary advantage: Fully automated. Excellent against light infantry.
Disadvantages: Not anti-vehicle.
Cost: Unknown.
Post by: NAV on February 06, 2014, 02:45:52 pm
Does the wrist mounted grappling hook have a motor to rewind the cord? A motor strong enough to lift about 300 pounds with decent speed? Also check the price.
Also try completely embedding a kinetic amp inside a sledgehammer. So that is is completely surrounded by metal. Swing the hammer and see what happens.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 04:01:49 pm
Quote
Can you help with deciding what to make it out of without using synth flesh?I'm not sure you could even really get something like this with ER tech without synthflesh. I'd kinda advise to get a battlesuit variant (added to armory in wiki by the way) that suits your needs and working from there. Or at the very least, make it smaller, 6m is really big for a (realistic, synthflesh has spacemagic so not as big a problem) legged mech.
Quote
2. Synthflesh/Normalflesh hybrids. I have some ideas, but first I need to make sure this is possible and sane.Yes you can, check the armory. If you can buy individual synthflesh limbs, you are already mixing those.
Quote
IIRC, the dex bonus of MKIIs comes from the small maneuvering rockets. They draw from the same tank as the main rockets, but you could probably shrink the tanks and remove the main rockets to cut down on priceI dunno, which is why I asked PW if there were problems with this plan. Though fitting those small maneuvering rockets between the armor seems doable.
Quote
First, something I said awhile ago, is that we should give all sods MKI suits at the least. I guess the robobody ones are getting stripped down MKIIIs, so they'll be pretty obviously different, but you can still give one or the other to synthflesh sods. Simus has shown that a regular-sized synthflesh body retains it's good stats, so putting them in MKs would make them stand out less. If you mix them with the cannon fodder at the same time, it becomes difficult to prioritize targets- the only defining characteristic is their weapon.Synthflesh sods don't need suits, they have everything the MkI suits offer (and better) already. Robosods also wouldn't 'need' them. About not standing out as much... For certain missions, this could help, but in general it kinda seems superfluous. And I'm not sure if a MkI suit wouldn't restrict the mobility of a synthflesh body a bit. And robosods couldn't use their jump pods (integrated into their back).
And MkI's are free (for players) and cheap (in-universe), but if you start giving them to troopers that don't really need them on the scale of an interplanetary army, I'm guessing the cost would ramp us fast (difference between me lending you a tablespoon of sugar or a truckload).
And regular sods could certainly get MkI's, yeah, probably should've specified that. Though I'd personally only give them when we know they'll need them (like engagements on spaceships or companies facing lots of combat) instead of every one ever. Again, cutting costs. But that's probably the inner bean counter talking, I'd be willing to give a MkI to all genemod sods if we can afford it in the grand scheme of things (though one has to wonder why the UWM wouldn't do that themselves).
Quote
Not to mention, giving them MK suits lets us have a wonderfully detailed view of the battlefield.Not a problem for robots or synthflesh, and giving a whole MkI suit to a genemod sod when you only need a few of its features seems wasteful. God I feel like an accountant.
Quote
Next thing: this is more personal preference, but I seriously recommend we mix a few designated marksmen into the general squads. They don't have to be improved, just have a precision weapon and a slight change to their programmed tactics.Well, a regular sod is already an incredible marksman. A reason I mixed laser rifles and gauss rifles in a normal squad was because gauss are crap for anything beyond close range, whereas laser rifles are less powerful but better range. But if you think a marksman in a regular squad is truly necessary, we could replace one of the grenadiers.
Quote
Do I need to go into the benefits of this?Normally, no, but you know what? go for it. Surprise me :P
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2014, 04:05:04 pm
((Damn it GWG, how did you convince me this thing is a good idea by arguing against it?))I have no idea. Normally, I'd expect that to make you think that's a bad idea.
P.S. Hey!
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 06, 2014, 04:13:00 pm
QuoteCan you help with deciding what to make it out of without using synth flesh?I'm not sure you could even really get something like this with ER tech without synthflesh. I'd kinda advise to get a battlesuit variant (added to armory in wiki by the way) that suits your needs and working from there. Or at the very least, make it smaller, 6m is really big for a (realistic, synthflesh has spacemagic so not as big a problem) legged mech.Quote2. Synthflesh/Normalflesh hybrids. I have some ideas, but first I need to make sure this is possible and sane.Yes you can, check the armory. If you can buy individual synthflesh limbs, you are already mixing those.QuoteIIRC, the dex bonus of MKIIs comes from the small maneuvering rockets. They draw from the same tank as the main rockets, but you could probably shrink the tanks and remove the main rockets to cut down on priceI dunno, which is why I asked PW if there were problems with this plan. Though fitting those small maneuvering rockets between the armor seems doable.QuoteFirst, something I said awhile ago, is that we should give all sods MKI suits at the least. I guess the robobody ones are getting stripped down MKIIIs, so they'll be pretty obviously different, but you can still give one or the other to synthflesh sods. Simus has shown that a regular-sized synthflesh body retains it's good stats, so putting them in MKs would make them stand out less. If you mix them with the cannon fodder at the same time, it becomes difficult to prioritize targets- the only defining characteristic is their weapon.Synthflesh sods don't need suits, they have everything the MkI suits offer (and better) already. Robosods also wouldn't 'need' them. About not standing out as much... For certain missions, this could help, but in general it kinda seems superfluous. And I'm not sure if a MkI suit wouldn't restrict the mobility of a synthflesh body a bit. And robosods couldn't use their jump pods (integrated into their back).
And MkI's are free (for players) and cheap (in-universe), but if you start giving them to troopers that don't really need them on the scale of an interplanetary army, I'm guessing the cost would ramp us fast (difference between me lending you a tablespoon of sugar or a truckload).
And regular sods could certainly get MkI's, yeah, probably should've specified that. Though I'd personally only give them when we know they'll need them (like engagements on spaceships or companies facing lots of combat) instead of every one ever. Again, cutting costs. But that's probably the inner bean counter talking, I'd be willing to give a MkI to all genemod sods if we can afford it in the grand scheme of things (though one has to wonder why the UWM wouldn't do that themselves).QuoteNot to mention, giving them MK suits lets us have a wonderfully detailed view of the battlefield.Not a problem for robots or synthflesh, and giving a whole MkI suit to a genemod sod when you only need a few of its features seems wasteful. God I feel like an accountant.QuoteNext thing: this is more personal preference, but I seriously recommend we mix a few designated marksmen into the general squads. They don't have to be improved, just have a precision weapon and a slight change to their programmed tactics.Well, a regular sod is already an incredible marksman. A reason I mixed laser rifles and gauss rifles in a normal squad was because gauss are crap for anything beyond close range, whereas laser rifles are less powerful but better range. But if you think a marksman in a regular squad is truly necessary, we could replace one of the grenadiers.QuoteDo I need to go into the benefits of this?Normally, no, but you know what? go for it. Surprise me :P
I'm trying to make something different from the battle suit. Not as bulky for one.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 06, 2014, 04:43:39 pm
Also i have a tinker repository in my sig for completed designs so that piecewise doesnt have to rummage thtough the threads when he forgets the details of your invention which he inevitably will, so remember to add them. :P
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 04:56:11 pm
I want an infantry support tank that has a bigass shield on the front wide enough for 2 columns of sods to hide behind it on each side that is coated with laserproof crystal and contains powerful magnetic devices to deflect gauss rounds.
Also i have a tinker repository in my sig for completed designs so that piecewise doesnt have to rummage thtough the threads when he forgets the details of your invention which he inevitably will, so remember to add them. :P
So a moving shield, basically? Cause a battlesuit with that shield the AM designed could do that.
Also, it might be better to centralize this kind of info on the wiki. In fact, do you object to having this copied into the armory section of the wiki? That way people won't have to search around for information.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 05:32:24 pm
Chassis: Unique. Trades main gun for large curved shield in front of the tank, fairly wide.
Armour: Shield: 4 layers of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal (I should really combine the two). Hull: 1 layer of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal.
Weapons: Turret mounted rapid fire rocket gun for infantry suppression
Movement: 2 composite tracks, heavy duty engine.
Cargo: Can hold weapons and ammo. Needs only a single driver and gunner. Shield capable of protecting supporting 2 supporting infantry columns from a 270 degree angle.
Operation: As a "turtle" and as heavy cover. "Turtling" allows the tank to draw enemy fire, whilst fire support moves in. The tank can also move forward, providing an advancing defensive bastion, at the price of being easier to flank.
Pros and Cons: Near invulnerable from frontal non-nuclear attacks, weak rear end. Expensive. Much better when used in wedge formation to provide more cover.
I want an infantry support tank that has a bigass shield on the front wide enough for 2 columns of sods to hide behind it on each side that is coated with laserproof crystal and contains powerful magnetic devices to deflect gauss rounds.
Also i have a tinker repository in my sig for completed designs so that piecewise doesnt have to rummage thtough the threads when he forgets the details of your invention which he inevitably will, so remember to add them. :P
Done. Totally buy me one.
Post by: syvarris on February 06, 2014, 05:44:00 pm
@Synthflesh hybrids
Do note that synthflesh limbs need a titanium seperator from the flesh just like other prosthetics; it can't connect directly.
@Synth sods don't need mk suits
True, they gain very little. But if you deploy them alongside regulars it makes them much harder to target preferentially.
It might be a little expensive, but I figured you were pulling out all the stops for elite synth troopers, and increasing one's survivability would be a priority. Equipping a few extra base sods with MKI suits wouldn't be very expensive- don't we have stockpiles full of that stuff?
Also, nobody has ever directly tested if synthflesh bodies benefit from exoskeleton/MKIIIs. I know that because it's something I've wanted to test since reading the OP, and have read pretty much every post since then, including tinkers. There was a guy who fought synthflesh bodies wearing MKIII's at one point, but I don't think their rolls were shown.
You could give just a single sod per squad an MKI if you're really worried about bean counting. Or even just the helmet, or a simple camera headband. That would give a few video feeds, and still be really cheap.
Spoiler: @Sod marksmanship (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toaster on February 06, 2014, 06:18:09 pm
Let's think what the Mk I offers- near-perfect temperature insulation, and is pressurized for airless enviroments. In terms of armor, it provides a bit of protection against blunt force trauma, but is basically useless against lasers and projectiles.
Considering these flesh Sods will be deployed on-planet, what exactly do they need the suit at all for? In terms of liability, it adds that giant heat exchange fin on the back that is an extra point to be damaged.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 06:22:14 pm
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Sorry for terribad formatting. Again, phone. :\No worries bro, I post from my phone too from time to time, I know what it's like (it suuuucks).
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True, they gain very little. But if you deploy them alongside regulars it makes them much harder to target preferentially.Are we sure they don't lose mobility, or that there aren't other possible unforseen drawbacks (like the cooling fan posing a dangerous weak point)? If not, sure, we can give them when the synthflesh sods are deployed alongside genemods. I don't see that happen on a regular basis, but it could certainly happen. I was more referring to just giving MkI's to every sod ever, including sods that are just garrisoning an unimportant outpost in the middle of nowhere (random example).
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Also, nobody has ever directly tested if synthflesh bodies benefit from exoskeleton/MKIIIs. I know that because it's something I've wanted to test since reading the OP, and have read pretty much every post since then, including tinkers. There was a guy who fought synthflesh bodies wearing MKIII's at one point, but I don't think their rolls were shown.It seems someone has some research to do :)
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You could give just a single sod per squad an MKI if you're really worried about bean counting. Or even just the helmet, or a simple camera headband. That would give a few video feeds, and still be really cheap.The bean counting thing was more against giving suits when it ain't necessary. But for genemods that are suspected to face direct combat, giving MkI certainly sounds like it could be a good idea (if only to protect them form chemical weapons and certain environment hazards). There is also the small matter of those suits maybe hindering general performance (it's still a 'bulky' suit after all), but I doubt that. Though those cooling fins are still a problem.
@ sod marksmanship: you're right, I remember thinking that was weird when that happened. Dunno, might be PW fudging the rules a bit to prevent Bishop and Auron hiding the entire mission cause a sod would headshot them at first glance otherwise.
But sure, one sod that focuses on suppression/elimination of enemy infantry by taking a good position and snipin' away sounds practical. Which is another reason to have sod commanders: they could recognize and exploit such opportunities in the field by ordering their troopers into the correct positions/giving good orders to their sods on what to do. And if you need a grenadier to give medium-range firepower, he can always trade weapons with the commander or support sod.
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Considering these flesh Sods will be deployed on-planet, what exactly do they need the suit at all for? In terms of liability, it adds that giant heat exchange fin on the back that is an extra point to be damaged.Indeed, but we're not just discussing the coming engagement, but how we design our sod army for ARM in general. There'll be other battles with vastly different circumstances in the future.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 06, 2014, 06:31:36 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2014, 06:35:02 pm
When I asked, piecewise said exoskeleton and synthflesh bonuses do not stack. Except for the spinal column.
Was he referring only to rolls though, or also to in-game reasons? I could see the bonuses not stacking due to otherwise breaking restrictive RTD gameplay, but maybe it would work for NPC's?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 06, 2014, 07:33:22 pm
I want an infantry support tank that has a bigass shield on the front wide enough for 2 columns of sods to hide behind it on each side that is coated with laserproof crystal and contains powerful magnetic devices to deflect gauss rounds.
Also i have a tinker repository in my sig for completed designs so that piecewise doesnt have to rummage thtough the threads when he forgets the details of your invention which he inevitably will, so remember to add them. :P
So a moving shield, basically? Cause a battlesuit with that shield the AM designed could do that.
Also, it might be better to centralize this kind of info on the wiki. In fact, do you object to having this copied into the armory section of the wiki? That way people won't have to search around for information.
Not exactly, i want it to still be a tank complete with energy cannon. Itd be more like lukas holding a battlesuit shield.
Personally i prefer google docs over the wiki for ease of editing (and i cant read the wiki on my phone) but feel free to copy its contents over if you really want to.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 08:47:39 pm
"Shield" Armored Infantry Support Tank
Chassis: Unique. Trades main gun for large curved shield in front of the tank, fairly wide.
Armour: Shield: 4 layers of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal (I should really combine the two). Hull: 1 layer of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal.
Weapons: Turret mounted rapid fire rocket gun for infantry suppression
Movement: 2 composite tracks, heavy duty engine.
Cargo: Can hold weapons and ammo. Needs only a single driver and gunner. Shield capable of protecting supporting 2 supporting infantry columns from a 270 degree angle.
Operation: As a "turtle" and as heavy cover. "Turtling" allows the tank to draw enemy fire, whilst fire support moves in. The tank can also move forward, providing an advancing defensive bastion, at the price of being easier to flank.
Pros and Cons: Near invulnerable from frontal non-nuclear attacks, weak rear end. Expensive. Much better when used in wedge formation to provide more cover.
Should I add a particle cannon to the Shield then? The cost would go way up, plus you'd need to shoot through or over the shield.
Also, how conductive is the laser-dispersing crystal? Could I make it conductive?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2014, 08:55:02 pm
1)give them Chimeras (or whatever lasergauss rifles are called these days :P)I'm imagining something not unlike a double-barreled shotgun with a laser duct taped on top. How close is this to your intent?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I want an infantry support tank that has a bigass shield on the front wide enough for 2 columns of sods to hide behind it on each side that is coated with laserproof crystal and contains powerful magnetic devices to deflect gauss rounds....Gauss rounds are magnetic, not magnetized. Unless you steal Tony Stark's reverse magnetism generators, that won't help.
Aside from that, sounds like a good rocket magnet, but that might just be the XCOM talking.
Operation: As a "turtle" and as heavy cover. "Turtling" allows the tank to draw enemy fire, whilst fire support moves in.Why would they shoot at it if it isn't doing anything except providing cover?
Sorry for terribad formatting. Again, phone.Here's hoping you find access to a real computer!
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@Synthflesh hybridsNoted. That only negates my more...intimate...ideas. Like synthetic torso bits around vital organs or something, what did you think I meant?
Do note that synthflesh limbs need a titanium seperator from the flesh just like other prosthetics; it can't connect directly.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 06, 2014, 09:50:30 pm
"Shield B." Armored Infantry Support Mobile Artillery
Chassis: Unique. Large curved shield in front of the tank, fairly wide. Has rotating socket for artillery piece.
Armour: Shield: 4 layers of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal (I should really combine the two). Hull: 1 layer of electromagnetic reactive armour and laserproof crystal.
Weapons: Single particle accelerator cannon piece with hull mounted rapid fire rocket gun for infantry suppression
Movement: 2 composite tracks, heavy duty engine.
Cargo: Can hold weapons and ammo. Needs only a single driver and gunner. Shield capable of protecting supporting 2 supporting infantry columns from a 270 degree angle.
Operation: As a "turtle" and as heavy cover. "Turtling" allows the tank to draw enemy fire, whilst fire support moves in. The tank can also move forward, providing an advancing defensive bastion, at the price of being easier to flank. The B variant also adds a PAC for suppressing enemy positions, by firing over the shield.
Pros and Cons: Near invulnerable from frontal non-nuclear attacks, weak rear end. Expensive. Much better when used in wedge formation to provide more cover. B variant is even more expensive, but has an added mobile PAC.
Titan Armour
Composition: A combination of electromagnetic reactive armour and laser cancelling crystals. The outer layer of the reactive armour is replaced with the diffusing crystal, allowing the armour to easily deflect both kinetic and energy based attacks, with enough layers.
Cost: Very expensive. Should be used only for high-level armour.
Post by: BFEL on February 06, 2014, 11:01:56 pm
Composition: Is made entirely of nukes
Armour: Fully armored in nuclear bonmbs
Weapons: It like to shot nuks
Movement: It move by explode
Cargo: Carries a full complement of nukes
Operation: To Nuke things what need Nuked, and as bedroom decoration
Pros and Cons: NUKALUR!!!!! also completely useless
Post by: Toaster on February 06, 2014, 11:06:08 pm
Post by: Tiruin on February 07, 2014, 12:02:22 am
ER, Repair/Rescue thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg4989196#msg4989196)
The voice of Feyri appears in the Tinker-chat.
"Simus brought me here. Not to intrude, but what is our objective in this simulation?"
Quote from: Feyri Nirel > James Kelly
Please watch over Grate for me. I...am unsure about him.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 07, 2014, 12:14:12 am
To Virtual Reality, all participants in a single Tinker session, set to record and automatically download the file for later review.
Set up my own project, with fusion fuel (call it Helium-3, just to be anuetronic, but any combination of gaseous fuels works, and enough to reach 1 kiloton TNT equivalent) held within a cylinder of lithium, which in turn is surrounded with the components for creating a closed magnetic field, creating z-pinch magnetic field, and a radio antenna set to excite the fuel within the lithium. Wrap the whole thing up in a case, with a generator and circuitry for the two fields and antenna at one end of the cylinder, as well as a remote trigger for activating the detonation sequence.
Detonation sequence is as follows: The closed magnetic field is generated, the radio antenna excites the fuel into plasma, directly after which the magnetic field's polarity is reversed, containing the new plasmoid. The Z-Pinch field activates, crushing the lithium cylinder around the plasmoid, igniting fusion.
Test this away from the others. Far away.
Feyri, I explained the objective in the briefing room: Create a unique conventional weapon to kill or disable a Battlesuit, or at the very least, destroy a sufficient portion of its armor. You may not spawn complete weapons from the conventional category that are at or above the price of a cutting laser, but you may spawn their parts.
Post by: Tiruin on February 07, 2014, 12:27:56 am
"I'm receiving you perf f ectly."
...
Great. Now I should create something new. What benefits can I give that have failed before?
Oh yes, let's put solar implants in guns and let them fire a direct stream of converted energy due to the exposure! That'll work!
Or let's modify the network of conduction so that a tesla sabre would be able to increase its output without damaging the origin.
...
"...I'll just be here then. Working. In my private space."
Designate a closed connection in the Tinker. Work there...
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 07, 2014, 01:11:22 am
NUKALUR ARMOIRE
Composition: Is made entirely of nukes
Armour: Fully armored in nuclear bonmbs
Weapons: It like to shot nuks
Movement: It move by explode
Cargo: Carries a full complement of nukes
Operation: To Nuke things what need Nuked, and as bedroom decoration
Pros and Cons: NUKALUR!!!!! also completely useless
I have to ask, why does everyone go with nuclear when making fun of other people's stuff?
Post by: Xantalos on February 07, 2014, 01:12:39 am
NUKALUR ARMOIREBeautiful.
Composition: Is made entirely of nukes
Armour: Fully armored in nuclear bonmbs
Weapons: It like to shot nuks
Movement: It move by explode
Cargo: Carries a full complement of nukes
Operation: To Nuke things what need Nuked, and as bedroom decoration
Pros and Cons: NUKALUR!!!!! also completely useless
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 07, 2014, 01:27:00 am
"I suppose I could just use that fusion missile I designed, but I think that for fairness' sake, I'll go ahead and make a new weapon anyway. Well, something of a same weapon, but in a different form factor. That alright, XO?"
Design a missile warhead based off the kinamp sandwich:
"Hammerhead" sub-nuclear offensive warhead
Form-factor: 65x980mm spin-stabilized missile
Propellant: Standard self-oxidizing solid fuel mix
Payload: 200 grams Aster-Ex, 2x kinetic amp ("kinamp sandwich" setup) as initiator.
Choice of: direct impact plate, 1500 grams shaped tungsten carbide pellet filler, or 1800 grams depleted uranium shaped penetration slug, as contact medium.
Detonator: Choice of impact fuse, proximity fuse, and/or command detonator.
Operation: Missile self-stabilizes following launch using deflected exhaust gases to impart spin. 500 milliseconds after leaving the launcher, the missile is armed. Upon receiving detonation signal, the 200 grams of Aster-Ex explosive detonates, pushing the contact plate of the kinamp-sandwich initiator forward, crushing the mineral foam padding within the sandwich, and imparting the force of the explosion and the momentum of the missile into the first kinetic amplifier. The force is amplified, and transferred into the second kinetic amplifier, where it is amplified once more, and transferred into contact medium. The magnitude of the forces involved releases a significant amount of energy in all directions - shooter is advised to take cover if at less than medium range.
If equipped with direct contact plate, warhead transfers all energy directly into target, imparting significant momentum to outer layers of its surface, potentially causing massive damage, but limited by the composition of the surface struck.
If equipped with depleted uranium penetrator, warhead transfers energy into the penetrator, partially melting it and imparting it a velocity in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring massive armor-penetrating damage regardless of target composition.
If equipped with tungsten carbide pellet filler, warhead creates a cloud of superheated metalloid debris moving forward in a 60 degree cone at speeds in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring a wide area of effect and massive damage to soft targets, regardless of their thermal protection.
Primary advantage: Unlike conventional explosive and nuclear weapons, leaves the shooter in far less danger than the enemy due to the directed nature of the resulting explosion.
Disadvantage: High cost... what else? Token costs of approx. 10 per missile, production costs unknown.
Make a simple four-tube shoulder-fired missile launcher for Hammerhead missiles. Load four Hammerheads with depleted uranium penetrators. Spawn a Battlesuit some 200m away. Commence testing.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 07, 2014, 06:58:15 am
"R right. Unique. Weapon. Conventional.
"I'm receiving you perf f ectly."
...
Great. Now I should create something new. What benefits can I give that have failed before?
Oh yes, let's put solar implants in guns and let them fire a direct stream of converted energy due to the exposure! That'll work!
Or let's modify the network of conduction so that a tesla sabre would be able to increase its output without damaging the origin.
...
"...I'll just be here then. Working. In my private space."
Designate a closed connection in the Tinker. Work there...
((Why are you having Feyri participate? She's not one of the candidates, she doesn't need to.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 07, 2014, 07:03:25 am
((Can't speak for Feyri, but at a guess... she wants to stay with Grate?"R right. Unique. Weapon. Conventional.
"I'm receiving you perf f ectly."
...
Great. Now I should create something new. What benefits can I give that have failed before?
Oh yes, let's put solar implants in guns and let them fire a direct stream of converted energy due to the exposure! That'll work!
Or let's modify the network of conduction so that a tesla sabre would be able to increase its output without damaging the origin.
...
"...I'll just be here then. Working. In my private space."
Designate a closed connection in the Tinker. Work there...
((Why are you having Feyri participate? She's not one of the candidates, she doesn't need to.))
Plus, she's been in the Corps from the get-go. We're not going to only sit on the planet all the time, PW said we'll have mini-missions of our own. Having an experienced soldier on board could be a good idea.))
Post by: Kriellya on February 07, 2014, 07:50:28 am
Project 1: Pressure Tent improvements
Ver A: Reusable variant, with assorted mechanisms to deflate and repack the tent for reuse.
Ver B: Armored variant, resistant to small arms fire.
Ver C: Supplied variant, has medical supplies, tools, and delicious snacks cleverly packed inside of it, ready for easy access after inflation.
Ver D: ALL OF THE ABOVE! If all of the above not possible, as many as possible.
Interested in price (in tokens) and feasibility :P
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 10:06:13 am
-snip-Enter Ms. Simus's VR Session
"Miss Simus, do we have a budget or something like that? Do we have restrictions on what we can make it be?"
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 07, 2014, 11:37:53 am
Quote
To Virtual Reality, all participants in a single Tinker session, set to record and automatically download the file for later review.Ooh, can I play ball to?
Quote
and you can only use parts from cutting lasers and above, and not the full weapon.Just to be clear: nothing but stuff from the regular armory listing? Cause that severely limits options (both your and Sean's designs wouldn't be applicable, for example). I went with nonstandard stuff for these, though feel free to ignore them completely.
(since I'm not actually in the running, I'll just give short concept descriptions of these instead of fully fleshed out designs.)
Spoiler: Shaped charge chemical insertion (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: automanip launcher (click to show/hide)
For both of these: if projectile cannot be made small enough to be effective, use mobile missile platform (threaded vehicle with radio, basically) and give troopers some way of designating what target they want hit.
Details like exact size, what to use as (self-oxidizing) fuel and related stuff can be worked out later on, once PW confirms concept is possible.
@ PW: just as a concept, would any of these be impossible in ER?
Post by: BFEL on February 07, 2014, 12:17:25 pm
So basically a serum what makes you have nopain, regen, and improves your stats generally?
What would the cost of such a thing be?
Oh also, where are we on designs for our Titan?
Post by: syvarris on February 07, 2014, 12:34:09 pm
When Simus finishes describing her assignment, Saint draws in a breath as if to speak, but he stays silent. Saint then follows the group to the VR machines, and gets in one after watching a few others go through the process.
Once inside, he spends his first few minutes simply watching the other participants. However, before long he walks a distance away and sets up a self contained box with a battlesuit inside. He spends several minutes examining the machine inside and out, and when that isn't enough, he checks what it was designed to fight, and how well it worked. Finally, he decides to spawn three self contained arenas. Each one has a standard UWM battlesuit fighting an enemy who has had time to equip and prepare themselves to fight one. The first arena has Altered, the second has UWM infantry, and the last has whatever the most effective rebel group that fought the UWM was. Saint pays close attention to how these forces defeat a battlesuit, or even if they're capable.
Finally, Saint pulls up the armory and spawns friendly UWM troopers equipped with the various lower tier weapons, and simply directs them to fire at dummy battlesuits. Only after watching for awhile does he launch into the actual design process.
Spoiler: Actual weapon design stuff (click to show/hide)
((Useless RP stuff at the beginning of the post is because Simus said this was testing how people work. So, I showed how Saint would work through the problem. Of course, I already know most of the stuff, so only a little bit is bolded.
Pre-post edit: Dangit, Radio! I should have posted this last night instead of waiting to proofread. Now we're building the same basic thing.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 07, 2014, 12:44:03 pm
Quote
Pre-post edit: Dangit, Radio! I should have posted this last night instead of waiting to proofread. Now we're building the same basic thing.))((Sorry dude, didn't know that. I just thought of that rough concept in like 5 minutes and jotted it down for fun's sake. But hey, Miya isn't in the running, so feel free to claim it as your own. I'll just steal one of your ideas in return :P ))
Post by: syvarris on February 07, 2014, 12:54:09 pm
And it's not really that similar. You're building a rocket launcher style thing, whereas I'm building a short ranged grenade launcher that can be used to set traps. Mine is more oriented for CQB.))
Post by: Xantalos on February 07, 2014, 12:55:02 pm
So getting back into serious mode, has anyone ever packaged all the current basic genemods together?I can have all that with a given amount of turns.
So basically a serum what makes you have nopain, regen, and improves your stats generally?
What would the cost of such a thing be?
Oh also, where are we on designs for our Titan?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 07, 2014, 01:04:43 pm
((It's not your fault, I'm just annoyed with myself for waiting. It's not really surprising we both came up with the same basic idea.
And it's not really that similar. You're building a rocket launcher style thing, whereas I'm building a short ranged grenade launcher that can be used to set traps. Mine is more oriented for CQB.))
You know, I've had the same thing: you get an idea, but you're on mission or something so no way to tinker it, then someone else mentions the concept and there goes your shot at originality. And good luck trying to prove you came up with it first if you didn't explicitly mention it.
yeah, as I noted in the description the concept is usable for other stuff depending on minimal size of automanip and computers and such. I used the rocket launcher as an anti-battlesuit example (and also cause I assumed the minimal size of shell needed would be too large for something grenade-like. If not, grenade launcher would be easier to handle).
Post by: piecewise on February 07, 2014, 02:23:28 pm
Spoiler: SodTalk (click to show/hide)
@Piecewise!
This might be overstepping some bounds, but can I get a weight estimate for a cutting laser? I thought it was closer to an M2 HMG (~80 pounds), but it only requires a str of five to wield effectively, so I'm not sure.
Also, how advanced is generator miniaturization tech in ER? I'd think it's pretty good, considering generators that can power lasers are light, but that might just be magic efficient lasers. Could you get a 200 Horsepower nuclear generator that weighs twenty pounds? Sixty? A hundred? Two hundred?
((Damn it GWG, how did you convince me this thing is a good idea by arguing against it?))
It weighs less then a gauss cannon, so probably like 60 pounds.
I'm not sure about horse power. Isn't horsepower a measure of mechanical work while generators are usually rated on how much power they generate rather then the strength with which they can turn a gear or a shaft or something?
To Virtual Reality, all participants in a single Tinker session, set to record and automatically download the file for later review.
Set up my own project, with fusion fuel (call it Helium-3, just to be anuetronic, but any combination of gaseous fuels works, and enough to reach 1 kiloton TNT equivalent) held within a cylinder of lithium, which in turn is surrounded with the components for creating a closed magnetic field, creating z-pinch magnetic field, and a radio antenna set to excite the fuel within the lithium. Wrap the whole thing up in a case, with a generator and circuitry for the two fields and antenna at one end of the cylinder, as well as a remote trigger for activating the detonation sequence.
Detonation sequence is as follows: The closed magnetic field is generated, the radio antenna excites the fuel into plasma, directly after which the magnetic field's polarity is reversed, containing the new plasmoid. The Z-Pinch field activates, crushing the lithium cylinder around the plasmoid, igniting fusion.
Test this away from the others. Far away.
Feyri, I explained the objective in the briefing room: Create a unique conventional weapon to kill or disable a Battlesuit, or at the very least, destroy a sufficient portion of its armor. You may not spawn complete weapons from the conventional category that are at or above the price of a cutting laser, but you may spawn their parts.
To Virtual Reality, all participants in a single Tinker session, set to record and automatically download the file for later review.
Set up my own project, with fusion fuel (call it Helium-3, just to be anuetronic, but any combination of gaseous fuels works, and enough to reach 1 kiloton TNT equivalent) held within a cylinder of lithium, which in turn is surrounded with the components for creating a closed magnetic field, creating z-pinch magnetic field, and a radio antenna set to excite the fuel within the lithium. Wrap the whole thing up in a case, with a generator and circuitry for the two fields and antenna at one end of the cylinder, as well as a remote trigger for activating the detonation sequence.
Detonation sequence is as follows: The closed magnetic field is generated, the radio antenna excites the fuel into plasma, directly after which the magnetic field's polarity is reversed, containing the new plasmoid. The Z-Pinch field activates, crushing the lithium cylinder around the plasmoid, igniting fusion.
Test this away from the others. Far away.
Feyri, I explained the objective in the briefing room: Create a unique conventional weapon to kill or disable a Battlesuit, or at the very least, destroy a sufficient portion of its armor. You may not spawn complete weapons from the conventional category that are at or above the price of a cutting laser, but you may spawn their parts.
Now, I'm just a simple country Hyper-chicken, but something about this seems odd to me. My background is more in chemistry then physics but wouldn't exciting a gas to the point of being a plasma using radiowaves need a fairly large amount of energy? I mean, radio waves are pretty low energy things, are they not? I mean, I (mostly) understand the mechanics here, but actually getting these things to function like you propose seems like it will need a shit ton of energy.
"R right. Unique. Weapon. Conventional.
"I'm receiving you perf f ectly."
...
Great. Now I should create something new. What benefits can I give that have failed before?
Oh yes, let's put solar implants in guns and let them fire a direct stream of converted energy due to the exposure! That'll work!
Or let's modify the network of conduction so that a tesla sabre would be able to increase its output without damaging the origin.
...
"...I'll just be here then. Working. In my private space."
Designate a closed connection in the Tinker. Work there...
Everyone stay away from Feyri's private areas. She's working with them.
What exactly do you want to work on?
Anton appears in VR with a slightly bored expression on his face.
"I suppose I could just use that fusion missile I designed, but I think that for fairness' sake, I'll go ahead and make a new weapon anyway. Well, something of a same weapon, but in a different form factor. That alright, XO?"
Design a missile warhead based off the kinamp sandwich:"Hammerhead" sub-nuclear offensive warhead
Form-factor: 65x980mm spin-stabilized missile
Propellant: Standard self-oxidizing solid fuel mix
Payload: 200 grams Aster-Ex, 2x kinetic amp ("kinamp sandwich" setup) as initiator.
Choice of: direct impact plate, 1500 grams shaped tungsten carbide pellet filler, or 1800 grams depleted uranium shaped penetration slug, as contact medium.
Detonator: Choice of impact fuse, proximity fuse, and/or command detonator.
Operation: Missile self-stabilizes following launch using deflected exhaust gases to impart spin. 500 milliseconds after leaving the launcher, the missile is armed. Upon receiving detonation signal, the 200 grams of Aster-Ex explosive detonates, pushing the contact plate of the kinamp-sandwich initiator forward, crushing the mineral foam padding within the sandwich, and imparting the force of the explosion and the momentum of the missile into the first kinetic amplifier. The force is amplified, and transferred into the second kinetic amplifier, where it is amplified once more, and transferred into contact medium. The magnitude of the forces involved releases a significant amount of energy in all directions - shooter is advised to take cover if at less than medium range.
If equipped with direct contact plate, warhead transfers all energy directly into target, imparting significant momentum to outer layers of its surface, potentially causing massive damage, but limited by the composition of the surface struck.
If equipped with depleted uranium penetrator, warhead transfers energy into the penetrator, partially melting it and imparting it a velocity in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring massive armor-penetrating damage regardless of target composition.
If equipped with tungsten carbide pellet filler, warhead creates a cloud of superheated metalloid debris moving forward in a 60 degree cone at speeds in excess of 2000 meters per second, ensuring a wide area of effect and massive damage to soft targets, regardless of their thermal protection.
Primary advantage: Unlike conventional explosive and nuclear weapons, leaves the shooter in far less danger than the enemy due to the directed nature of the resulting explosion.
Disadvantage: High cost... what else? Token costs of approx. 10 per missile, production costs unknown.
Make a simple four-tube shoulder-fired missile launcher for Hammerhead missiles. Load four Hammerheads with depleted uranium penetrators. Spawn a Battlesuit some 200m away. Commence testing.
This would work, though I'm not sure about the penetrators. The force would probably just shatter the thing into high speed shrapnel. So it would be more a shotgun then a spike. Still, it would probably punch through most armor.
Engage tinker mode: MEDICAL EDITION!A: doable. Bigger and more bulky though, since you'll need to re-compress the atmosphere and and such.
Project 1: Pressure Tent improvements
Ver A: Reusable variant, with assorted mechanisms to deflate and repack the tent for reuse.
Ver B: Armored variant, resistant to small arms fire.
Ver C: Supplied variant, has medical supplies, tools, and delicious snacks cleverly packed inside of it, ready for easy access after inflation.
Ver D: ALL OF THE ABOVE! If all of the above not possible, as many as possible.
Interested in price (in tokens) and feasibility :P
b: doable. Again, heavier and more bulky.
c. Very doable but kinda meaningless.
D. Doable. Just even bigger and bulkier too. Could strap it to flint and just have him carry it.
Neither are impossible, but that chemical charge might be hard to get balanced perfectly. And I doubt you can make that missile really reusable. Even if it is in theory I doubt many will survive to be reused.QuoteTo Virtual Reality, all participants in a single Tinker session, set to record and automatically download the file for later review.Ooh, can I play ball to?Quoteand you can only use parts from cutting lasers and above, and not the full weapon.Just to be clear: nothing but stuff from the regular armory listing? Cause that severely limits options (both your and Sean's designs wouldn't be applicable, for example). I went with nonstandard stuff for these, though feel free to ignore them completely.
(since I'm not actually in the running, I'll just give short concept descriptions of these instead of fully fleshed out designs.)Spoiler: Shaped charge chemical insertion (click to show/hide)Spoiler: automanip launcher (click to show/hide)
For both of these: if projectile cannot be made small enough to be effective, use mobile missile platform (threaded vehicle with radio, basically) and give troopers some way of designating what target they want hit.
Details like exact size, what to use as (self-oxidizing) fuel and related stuff can be worked out later on, once PW confirms concept is possible.
@ PW: just as a concept, would any of these be impossible in ER?
((Oh god. Did you really have to show Saint the VR machines? There goes any hope of roleplaying for the next couple weeks, I suppose. ;p))
When Simus finishes describing her assignment, Saint draws in a breath as if to speak, but he stays silent. Saint then follows the group to the VR machines, and gets in one after watching a few others go through the process.
Once inside, he spends his first few minutes simply watching the other participants. However, before long he walks a distance away and sets up a self contained box with a battlesuit inside. He spends several minutes examining the machine inside and out, and when that isn't enough, he checks what it was designed to fight, and how well it worked. Finally, he decides to spawn three self contained arenas. Each one has a standard UWM battlesuit fighting an enemy who has had time to equip and prepare themselves to fight one. The first arena has Altered, the second has UWM infantry, and the last has whatever the most effective rebel group that fought the UWM was. Saint pays close attention to how these forces defeat a battlesuit, or even if they're capable.
Finally, Saint pulls up the armory and spawns friendly UWM troopers equipped with the various lower tier weapons, and simply directs them to fire at dummy battlesuits. Only after watching for awhile does he launch into the actual design process.Spoiler: Actual weapon design stuff (click to show/hide)
((Useless RP stuff at the beginning of the post is because Simus said this was testing how people work. So, I showed how Saint would work through the problem. Of course, I already know most of the stuff, so only a little bit is bolded.
Pre-post edit: Dangit, Radio! I should have posted this last night instead of waiting to proofread. Now we're building the same basic thing.))
Welp, First, the altered being used here are the more limited ones from the battle of hexbarax sim.
So UWM military basically uses Piezoelectric shard launchers or plasma weaponry. And they seem to just shoot it a lot. Plasma melts through just about anything so it works, and the shards are sharp enough to embed themselves before exploding.
Altered...well they just swarm the other fucker and tear it open with brute force to get at the human inside.
The last, rebels from the Red Moon Rebellion. They tend to seem to use distraction and then jamming joints or spraying paint over cameras. Then they try to get it open but it just detonates it's claymores and...well yeah.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 02:40:55 pm
This one is for you, piecewise:
At the moment, I have two ideas:
1. A nuclear explosive thingy small enough to be used as a bullet or other such projectile (likely a larger-caliber one), for when normal explosive rounds just aren't enough.
2. Synthflesh/Normalflesh hybrids. I have some ideas, but first I need to make sure this is possible and sane.
-snip-Enter Ms. Simus's VR Session
"Miss Simus, do we have a budget or something like that? Do we have restrictions on what we can make it be?"
Post by: syvarris on February 07, 2014, 03:12:35 pm
Next question, how effective is the cutting laser at range? Test against a battlesuit at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000, and 3000m.
Lastly, you missed the actual bit of tinker in my post:
Spoiler: Actual weapon design stuff (click to show/hide)
...
I am so sorry.
Edit: If I'm allowed to, use that +/-2 dynamic AUX bonus I was charging to write a virus that can infect a computer through a text message. Nothing particularly malicious, just a virus which allows me to remotely access whatever's infected. Focus on making it hard to detect. Save the virus on my wristpad for future use.
If I'm not allowed to do this, just let the dynamic bonus float away like wisps of smoke drifting above the fires of a burning school.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 03:15:38 pm
How do automanipulators work, again?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 07, 2014, 03:19:49 pm
Post by: NAV on February 07, 2014, 03:44:16 pm
Also, I will try to make a kinetic amplified axe.
Spoiler: Diagram. (click to show/hide)
Add a button on the handle of the axe. When pressed down, it will activate the kinetic amp. When released, it will turn the amp off.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 03:47:00 pm
How do automanips work? I need some help before I can start with Grate's design.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 07, 2014, 03:51:06 pm
I should probably get to work on an idea. Let's see...A black box that can do a single thing when activated. They can be used for things such as shields or manipulator countermeasures. Very expensive, limited uses.
How do automanipulators work, again?
EDIT: @NAV: I think that will just explode.
Post by: Lenglon on February 07, 2014, 03:52:47 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 03:53:04 pm
Post by: Lenglon on February 07, 2014, 03:58:30 pm
Post by: Empiricist on February 07, 2014, 03:58:45 pm
Most of your job in there is observation, alright? You need not participate, but I wouldn't mind if you did."Understood, ma'am."
Charles observes the proceedings.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 08:33:34 pm
limited batteries, and you can make them do anything a non-overloaded manip can do, but only that one thing. it cannot be adjusted. they do not rely on nearby people.I think I know what I want my device to do, but exact specs rely on one question:
How big is it? Would I be making it into a bullet or a mortar shell?
Post by: Tack on February 07, 2014, 08:40:57 pm
I think the principles would be pretty easy, and also layered with magnet magic which I as a player don't know about, so I'm keeping it simple.
Post by: Corsair on February 07, 2014, 08:50:32 pm
enter session with simus and others move slightly away from the group spawn two battle suits facing each other one normally assembled and one shown mechanically exploded
Spoiler: design (click to show/hide)
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 08:54:48 pm
I wish to try and make a gauss shotgun.If I understand gauss, you just need a bunch of steel ball bearings contained in a proper shell.
I think the principles would be pretty easy, and also layered with magnet magic which I as a player don't know about, so I'm keeping it simple.
So you probably need a lot more than that.
Post by: BFEL on February 07, 2014, 08:55:40 pm
What armaments do you guys suggest?
Armor? Other Stuff? Pure Cosmetic stuffs?
OPTIONS MAYN! SOOOOO MANY OPTIONS.
Also I want to name it Wykydtron after the completely badass 3IOB song about giant robots that pretty much conquer the universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfMISL3dqGY
Post by: Tack on February 07, 2014, 09:02:26 pm
I wish to try and make a gauss shotgun.If I understand gauss, you just need a bunch of steel ball bearings contained in a proper shell.
I think the principles would be pretty easy, and also layered with magnet magic which I as a player don't know about, so I'm keeping it simple.
So you probably need a lot more than that.
Maybe if I treated it right, I could just make shotgun ammunition for the standard gauss rifle. Which would be cool.
Then I guess if I also made sabot ammunition, then I'd have a long range equivalent too.
Post by: NAV on February 07, 2014, 09:12:36 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 09:55:32 pm
You don't need to be piecewise to answer, you know...
Post by: Tack on February 07, 2014, 10:04:19 pm
There is already shotgun ammo available for the gauss rifle. It's called blackshot.
And thereby my tinker project is already completed.
Man I'm good at this.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 07, 2014, 10:10:15 pm
1. Big ass particle cannon
2. More armour then you can poke a stick at
3. Bar
Post by: BFEL on February 07, 2014, 10:27:45 pm
I mean think about it, if we could give his quantum immortality to OUR TITAN....
*News at 11*
The UWM fleet was spotted running away screaming today when a enemy titan repeatedly came back from utter destruction.
Top Military officials could not be reached for comment, as they were "busy hiding in their bunkers shitting themselves unconscious"
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 10:32:05 pm
We REALLY need to do some science on Grate.I'm pretty sure that was a nigh-impossible-to-reproduce event. Like the weird hard-water-and-lightning accident that made The (first) Flash. Or the gamma bomb that made the Hulk.
I mean think about it, if we could give his quantum immortality to OUR TITAN....
But if we can reproduce it...
Post by: Corsair on February 07, 2014, 10:39:46 pm
Post by: Tack on February 07, 2014, 11:09:50 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 11:16:32 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 07, 2014, 11:29:01 pm
Post by: Empiricist on February 07, 2014, 11:30:32 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 07, 2014, 11:49:59 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on February 08, 2014, 12:25:05 am
I'm basing this thing on a design that uses it for propulsion (kind of like an Orion, but the detonation occurs at the throat of a magnetic nozzel and the fusion products and lithium are the reaction mass) - with a recycle rate of 14 seconds per pulse. And there's actually not that much fusion fuel to ionize - the lithium (actually, now I've read a study or two more... aluminium is better, swap that in instead) combined with the theta pinch (what I was reading for info was wrong, it's not a z-pinch, but a theta pinch that compresses the metal liner around the fuel) is what does most of the work - and scaling up the power of the device is done, it seems, by making the liner more massive (makes sense, I suppose - the fusion fuel ends up being crushed even more with the additional mass).
Though if it's really that much of an issue, we could swap fuels to a mix with a lower Lawson Criterion (deuterium-tritium, perhaps), since if less energy is required to set off the bomb but the energy from compression remains the same, then it should require less energy given to the fuel by radio excitation.
Post by: Remalle on February 08, 2014, 01:43:44 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 08, 2014, 01:58:10 am
((Sean, you can use whatever, just so long as you're not spawning complete weapons at cutting laser level and up. And I'm not working on the engineering challenge.))I think the core of the issue here is that you need quite a lot of energy to start the reaction regardless. Part through magnetic compression, part through radio excitation, but still a lot of energy. That you get a whole lot more back is obvious, but you need that starting spark, and that means a very high-density power cell, like the ones in the Black Death.
I'm basing this thing on a design that uses it for propulsion (kind of like an Orion, but the detonation occurs at the throat of a magnetic nozzel and the fusion products and lithium are the reaction mass) - with a recycle rate of 14 seconds per pulse. And there's actually not that much fusion fuel to ionize - the lithium (actually, now I've read a study or two more... aluminium is better, swap that in instead) combined with the theta pinch (what I was reading for info was wrong, it's not a z-pinch, but a theta pinch that compresses the metal liner around the fuel) is what does most of the work - and scaling up the power of the device is done, it seems, by making the liner more massive (makes sense, I suppose - the fusion fuel ends up being crushed even more with the additional mass).
Though if it's really that much of an issue, we could swap fuels to a mix with a lower Lawson Criterion (deuterium-tritium, perhaps), since if less energy is required to set off the bomb but the energy from compression remains the same, then it should require less energy given to the fuel by radio excitation.
The entire device ends up being the aluminum fusion fuel canister surrounded by magnetic coils, plus radio antenna, plus power cell, arranged in a cylinder to be put into a missile, with the fusion canister up front. Only thing I can't say is how much energy needs to be delivered, so as to see how large the cell will need to be.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 09:13:13 am
Guys.
How big is an automanip?
Post by: Lenglon on February 08, 2014, 09:17:04 am
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 09:55:38 am
Mortar shell or something it is, I guess.
Spoiler: The Grate Shell (click to show/hide)
Post by: syvarris on February 08, 2014, 10:09:53 am
First, it's got such a low blast radius. If it's fired from a mortar, it's really only useful against a target that's entirely stationary for long periods of time- mortars have a long travel time, and are fairly innaccurate.
Second, it's probably reaally expensive. Matter conversion manips are just plain expensive without needing to be automated, an automated one's gonna cost more than twenty tokens, not even factoring in the launcher or casing or anything.
(Maybe) Third, I think automanips are decently fragile. Even with padding, you might need an inertia dampening manip just to make it survive the trip. And then you'd have a mortar round that costs more than an Avatar of War.
Plus, you could always just fire a traditional mortar round. It does require a direct hit anyways, so just a solid slug of metal should be able to take out a battlesuit.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 10:13:30 am
While not a particularly bad idea, I see two issues with that. Maybe three.True. I could set it higher, but I'm worried about excessive collateral damage and remembering that the AM at one point said that that's about the ideal size for amp stuff.
First, it's got such a low blast radius. If it's fired from a mortar, it's really only useful against a target that's entirely stationary for long periods of time- mortars have a long travel time, and are fairly innaccurate.
It's not like that that's the hardest thing to change.
Quote
Second, it's probably reaally expensive. Matter conversion manips are just plain expensive without needing to be automated, an automated one's gonna cost more than twenty tokens, not even factoring in the launcher or casing or anything.Wait, there was a 20-token budget? I missed that. Well, I might need to change the concept. Although this should work pretty well as an anti-armor round, neh? Up the radius a bit and it's great against starships (not enough to eat the whole starship, but enough to cut through both walls of the room?).
Thankfully, everything except the automanip should be pretty cheap.
Quote
(Maybe) Third, I think automanips are decently fragile. Even with padding, you might need an inertia dampening manip just to make it survive the trip. And then you'd have a mortar round that costs more than an Avatar of War.I certainly hope I don't need all that.
Quote
Plus, you could always just fire a traditional mortar round. It does require a direct hit anyways, so just a solid slug of metal should be able to take out a battlesuit....If it did, wouldn't this be pretty pointless as an exercise?
Post by: Tack on February 08, 2014, 10:24:29 am
diminutive, but not fine, nor tiny, if you want dnd terms and my memory of the progression is correct.T,D,F I think.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 10:27:44 am
Of course, this suggestion is often ignored, as the Tiny rats will show.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 08, 2014, 10:28:22 am
You're probably better off using nukes or explosives or melter rounds or... anything really.
Oh, idea. Make an automanipulator that heats everything in a line in front of it to a ridiculous degree. Essentially a short-range man-portable avatar-strength pulse-laser. Good for a short range anti tank weapon. Or depending on how much power it can put out and what shapes it can project energy in, it can also act as a shield or door opener. Or you could use a telekinetic automanip to disintegrate stuff in front of you with some sort of anti-gravity field. Really, automanipulators have many applications as conventional weapons.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 10:44:48 am
I think that a laser/heat shield-automanipulator costs 7 tokens and has 20 charges. Ask Bishop. Or search the on ship thread a bit for when he bought them.Something like that could work if this turns out to...not.
Quote
You're probably better off using nukes or explosives or melter rounds or... anything really.Been done. We're supposed to think of new stuff, aren't we?
Quote
Oh, idea. Make an automanipulator that heats everything in a line in front of it to a ridiculous degree. Essentially a short-range man-portable avatar-strength pulse-laser. Good for a short range anti tank weapon. Or depending on how much power it can put out and what shapes it can project energy in, it can also act as a shield or door opener. Or you could use a telekinetic automanip to disintegrate stuff in front of you with some sort of anti-gravity field. Really, automanipulators have many applications as conventional weapons.Another few ideas.
Post by: syvarris on February 08, 2014, 12:59:25 pm
And against spaceships... again, why can't you just use a manip-accelerated gauss round? Launching a conversion manip at them has less effect, can be intercepted more effectively (laser gauss round? Plasma is flying at you, with same or slightly less kinetic energy. Laser manip round? All the destructive potential went bye-bye.), and is way more expensive because you can just reload the accelerator batteries.
Lastly, no, it isn't pointless. This exercise isn't to find a good anti-battlesuit weapon (although that is a possible benefit), this exercise is to test our abilities as engineers and tinkers, especially under constraints. I mean, if we really wanted a good anti-battlesuit measure then there would be constraints on price of the object, not type. Telling people to design a specialized weapon, with the constraint that it has to be the type of weapon your target was designed to defend against? That's looking for creativity, not a gun.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 08, 2014, 01:18:52 pm
Quote
Neither are impossible, but that chemical charge might be hard to get balanced perfectly. And I doubt you can make that missile really reusable. Even if it is in theory I doubt many will survive to be reused.
For shaped chemical charge: how large would the smallest round be that can still reliably penetrate battlesuit frontal armor?
For automanip launcher: what is the smallest size the 'inner core' could be (this includes the automanip, guidance computers and other reusable but vulnerable bits)? And would it be possible to protect the inner core from damage when using a combination of padding, shock absorbers (hydraulic, springs and/or pneumatic) and a crumple zone?
((Also, hot damn it seems everybody and his grandmother is experimenting with automanips all of the sudden. Do I get a prize for starting a trend? :P ))
Quote
OY!Do yer own frikkin' research! Though now that the search function is borked, I guess one could be forgiven for not wanting to use that unpractical solution using google search.
How do automanips work? I need some help before I can start with Grate's design.
Quote
And thereby my tinker project is already completed.Indeed, a good tinkerer will always start out with researching if there are existing things already that do what you need. A good tinkerer is quite lazy, like a good programmer really.
Man I'm good at this.
Quote
We REALLY need to do some science on Grate.We need to determine what Grate retains from his current form when he dies. e.g. If his brain is removed to be put into a synthflesh body, does he even keep the quantum immortality?(problem: if not, the whole enterprise becomes kinda moot, since the only way of testing it is killing Grate and seeing what happens)
I mean think about it, if we could give his quantum immortality to OUR TITAN....
And if he dies while being full synthflesh, does he return full synthflesh? If yes, interesting options there.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
Do yer own frikkin' research! Though now that the search function is borked, I guess one could be forgiven for not wanting to use that unpractical solution using google search.What would I even search for? "Automanip" would turn up every post someone mentioned one in, and every post quoting one of those, and most quoting one of those. It's not just being able to search; knowing what to search for is also important.
If there isn't an "Automanip Guide" or something else with a distinctive, memorable title, search can be remarkably tough to glean data like that from; you need to find needles in haystacks, doncha know.
Quote
We need to determine what Grate retains from his current form when he dies. e.g. If his brain is removed to be put into a synthflesh body, does he even keep the quantum immortality?(problem: if not, the whole enterprise becomes kinda moot, since the only way of testing it is killing Grate and seeing what happens)And three questions come up with this.
And if he dies while being full synthflesh, does he return full synthflesh? If yes, interesting options there.
1. How would we research questions like this?
2. Would this go better in the Tinker thread or the OOC thread?
3. ...Or should we have a "Tinfoil/SuperTech/Mad Science Theorizing Thread"?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 08, 2014, 05:37:29 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 08, 2014, 06:04:14 pm
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 08, 2014, 08:13:59 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on February 08, 2014, 10:15:59 pm
((Sean, you can use whatever, just so long as you're not spawning complete weapons at cutting laser level and up. And I'm not working on the engineering challenge.))I think the core of the issue here is that you need quite a lot of energy to start the reaction regardless. Part through magnetic compression, part through radio excitation, but still a lot of energy. That you get a whole lot more back is obvious, but you need that starting spark, and that means a very high-density power cell, like the ones in the Black Death.
I'm basing this thing on a design that uses it for propulsion (kind of like an Orion, but the detonation occurs at the throat of a magnetic nozzel and the fusion products and lithium are the reaction mass) - with a recycle rate of 14 seconds per pulse. And there's actually not that much fusion fuel to ionize - the lithium (actually, now I've read a study or two more... aluminium is better, swap that in instead) combined with the theta pinch (what I was reading for info was wrong, it's not a z-pinch, but a theta pinch that compresses the metal liner around the fuel) is what does most of the work - and scaling up the power of the device is done, it seems, by making the liner more massive (makes sense, I suppose - the fusion fuel ends up being crushed even more with the additional mass).
Though if it's really that much of an issue, we could swap fuels to a mix with a lower Lawson Criterion (deuterium-tritium, perhaps), since if less energy is required to set off the bomb but the energy from compression remains the same, then it should require less energy given to the fuel by radio excitation.
The entire device ends up being the aluminum fusion fuel canister surrounded by magnetic coils, plus radio antenna, plus power cell, arranged in a cylinder to be put into a missile, with the fusion canister up front. Only thing I can't say is how much energy needs to be delivered, so as to see how large the cell will need to be.
PW was saying that the radio excitation would be so inefficient that the power required would be unfeasible. The core of what I said is that there's not even that much fuel to convert to plasma, so the inefficiency of the radio antenna made little difference. The FRC magnetic field won't require much power either, for the same reason - it doesn't have that much plasma to contain (and the plasma will be at atmospheric pressure, anyways - not a high-pressure design, which would require very powerful field generators). The highest-power part would be the theta-pinch field, and that only needs to be powerful enough to crush the liner around the plasma - though in higher-yield bombs, with thicker liners, it will need to be somewhat more powerful.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 08, 2014, 11:04:07 pm
Post by: Doomblade187 on February 08, 2014, 11:41:03 pm
How feasible is it to have a device that blasts the nyan cat song at 125dB? Would enemy infantry be disabled by pain?Sods don't feel pain.
Otherwise, it would be a plausible idea, just so long as we bumped it up a few decibels.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 09, 2014, 01:31:32 am
Quote
PEP weapons fire a laser pulse that is very intense but only a fraction of a second in duration. The pulse vaporizes a tiny portion of the hapless victim's clothing or skin, creating a plasma burst intense enough to knock the victim to the ground. This was intended to be used for crowd control. I don't know about you but it seems to me that a pulse strong enough to knock one down is also strong enough to make one's eyeballs explode if it hit your face. But I digress.
However, during test performed on animals, the researchers noticed something unexpected. The pulses were creating pain and temporary paralysis in the test animals. As it turns out, certain pulses would create a plasma burst emitting an electromagnetic signal of proper frequency to artificially stimulate the nerve endings in the animal's skin.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 09, 2014, 03:30:06 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 09, 2014, 03:44:17 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 09, 2014, 04:01:54 am
Post by: BFEL on February 09, 2014, 08:43:09 am
Viral videos transmitted via psychokinetic amp?
THE ULTIMATE RICKROLL
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 09, 2014, 09:44:38 am
No, no, no.Viral videos transmitted via psychokinetic amp?THE ULTIMATE RICKROLL
The ultimate rickroll would be doing that to an entire PLANET at once. The same one that Rick Astley is on.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 09, 2014, 02:56:50 pm
Anton, content with the destructive effect of his rockets, moves over to Simus' testing area of the VR scene.
"Ah, XO? Do you have a minute? We have a few things to finalize here, and I figure now's as good a time as any. Primarily, there's the matter of the Black Death, that's what I call my flying cannon of a ship overhaul. Its uses are strategic rather than tactical, and I was hoping to have the generals weigh in on the matter. It is going to be the biggest of the overhaul projects, and if those resources are needed elsewhere, now's the time to decide whether or not we need it.
Then there are smaller matters with the equipment of the other ships, like Tweedledee and Tweedledum - our two regular shuttles. I put weapons on them because they'll be flying during a combat situation, but I am a technician, not a tactician. More experienced warriors of ours may have a better idea of what's useful.
And finally there's a... well, a side project that I'd like your input on, and maybe permission to prototype. I kinda threw the design together just recently, but I've been thinking on the idea ever since our stay on the Canary Base, and I have reason to believe it'll help our troops in the long run.
But first things first. I know we can contact Miyamoto, but is Jim or Milno anywhere they can see us?"
Post by: piecewise on February 10, 2014, 03:34:00 pm
Posted for the ease of people.1.Gauss cannons (the man portable guns that are basically upgraded, larger gauss rifles) have 16th kiloton shells.
This one is for you, piecewise:At the moment, I have two ideas:
1. A nuclear explosive thingy small enough to be used as a bullet or other such projectile (likely a larger-caliber one), for when normal explosive rounds just aren't enough.
2. Synthflesh/Normalflesh hybrids. I have some ideas, but first I need to make sure this is possible and sane.-snip-Enter Ms. Simus's VR Session
"Miss Simus, do we have a budget or something like that? Do we have restrictions on what we can make it be?"
2. They don't hybridize. You can have a synth-flesh limb attached to a normal body, but they're not hybrid, it's just attached like a normal robot limb or prosthetic.
Hrm. One horsepower = 3/4 of a kilowatt, so 200 HP would be 150 kW. But I feel like you want to avoid giving definite levels of energy, so I'll just say that from some quick googling it looks like a modern high-performance 200 HP engine would weigh a little under three hundred pounds. Is ER tech advanced enough to make a forty pound nuclear generator with similar or greater power output? If so, how fast would it charge a cutting laser's battery, assuming you had a rechargable battery?
Next question, how effective is the cutting laser at range? Test against a battlesuit at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000, and 3000m.
Lastly, you missed the actual bit of tinker in my post:Spoiler: Actual weapon design stuff (click to show/hide)
...
I am so sorry.
Edit: If I'm allowed to, use that +/-2 dynamic AUX bonus I was charging to write a virus that can infect a computer through a text message. Nothing particularly malicious, just a virus which allows me to remotely access whatever's infected. Focus on making it hard to detect. Save the virus on my wristpad for future use.
If I'm not allowed to do this, just let the dynamic bonus float away like wisps of smoke drifting above the fires of a burning school.
I feel like this is the sort of thing I created TPU for a million years ago and it only ever sorta got used. Check the wiki, there's a list of the power outputs and usages for weapons I believe. But yeah, you could get that much energy from a generator.
>Automanip stuff
Something with those specs...5 token.
And for your launchable glue bomb thing....
Well the thing could be fired at, oh, 150, 200 miles an hour and manage not to smash itself and stick on most of the time.
Do that with a rocket and make the launcher just a metal tube and it should be like 3 tokens, so 8 over all.
As per successful...well that depends. 20 degrees isn't a lot, especially if it's for a short time. Doubly so if the pilot isn't full human or you don't hit the cockpit straight on.
Also, I'd be careful with viruses. Remember, you might not have the ability to remotely access things but steve is practically everywhere in anything electronic that can accept outside signals. He might take offense to malignant code crawling around.
The intent with the penetrator is the same as a HEAP round. Shape the penetrator in such a way that the kinetic/explosive force applied results in most of the mass going forward as a directed armor-penetrating spike, even if it means the mass deforming, melting, and otherwise doing very bad things to itself. Make the penetrator like a double-helix spring tapering to a point, for instance. The pressure and destruction wave will travel in such a way that the outer layers, at the base of the spring, would fly forward with the most force, and funnel the rest of the penetrator into a single direction as it disintegrates in their wake. The double-helix spring shape will mean that the mass of the penetrator will have an infinitesimal amount more time to react to the force applied, so that it doesn't all shatter in one go. That sort of thing.
Hmm. Well alright. That will work I suppose.
IS THE WRIST MOUNTED GRAPPLING HOOK MOTORIZED? CAN IT LIFT 300 POUNDS FAST? WHERE IS THE MOTOR LOCATED? HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?It can be. It could. Probably on the upper arm. 4 or 5 tokens.
Also, I will try to make a kinetic amplified axe.The kinetic amp is stuck to one wall of a sealed chamber inside the axe. When swung, the kinetic amp will activate and push all the air in the chamber to one side, creating a powerful pneumatic effect. Kinetic amps have no equal and opposite reaction, so this will propel the axe forward with a lot of force.Spoiler: Diagram. (click to show/hide)
Add a button on the handle of the axe. When pressed down, it will activate the kinetic amp. When released, it will turn the amp off.
I believe what you created there is either an ax shaped grenade or something that just doesn't work.
Same game different rules...I have no idea what you're trying to make there. Pump with a laser? Help.
enter session with simus and others move slightly away from the group spawn two battle suits facing each other one normally assembled and one shown mechanically explodedtest systemSpoiler: design (click to show/hide)
Hey, how big is an automanip? Such information is important for my planned Battlesuit-killer!Depends on what they're being used for and how powerful they are. The ones in cannons like the ones on the sword are the size of small trucks.
You don't need to be piecewise to answer, you know...
((Sean, you can use whatever, just so long as you're not spawning complete weapons at cutting laser level and up. And I'm not working on the engineering challenge.))
I'm basing this thing on a design that uses it for propulsion (kind of like an Orion, but the detonation occurs at the throat of a magnetic nozzel and the fusion products and lithium are the reaction mass) - with a recycle rate of 14 seconds per pulse. And there's actually not that much fusion fuel to ionize - the lithium (actually, now I've read a study or two more... aluminium is better, swap that in instead) combined with the theta pinch (what I was reading for info was wrong, it's not a z-pinch, but a theta pinch that compresses the metal liner around the fuel) is what does most of the work - and scaling up the power of the device is done, it seems, by making the liner more massive (makes sense, I suppose - the fusion fuel ends up being crushed even more with the additional mass).
Though if it's really that much of an issue, we could swap fuels to a mix with a lower Lawson Criterion (deuterium-tritium, perhaps), since if less energy is required to set off the bomb but the energy from compression remains the same, then it should require less energy given to the fuel by radio excitation.
You're getting a bit beyond my knowledge of physics at this point. I'm gonna trust that you're gonna be realistic when it comes to the details; so whats the nitty gritty of this. What are you trying to make? Just a cheaper fusion bomb?
So, several inches?This is basically the same as the Microwave glue bomb someone made elsewhere in this reply. Except it's gonna be more expensive. and bigger.
Mortar shell or something it is, I guess.Grate attempts to make the aforedescribed weapon for his Simus project, without destroying his virtual self.Spoiler: The Grate Shell (click to show/hide)
QuoteNeither are impossible, but that chemical charge might be hard to get balanced perfectly. And I doubt you can make that missile really reusable. Even if it is in theory I doubt many will survive to be reused.
For shaped chemical charge: how large would the smallest round be that can still reliably penetrate battlesuit frontal armor?
For automanip launcher: what is the smallest size the 'inner core' could be (this includes the automanip, guidance computers and other reusable but vulnerable bits)? And would it be possible to protect the inner core from damage when using a combination of padding, shock absorbers (hydraulic, springs and/or pneumatic) and a crumple zone?
((Also, hot damn it seems everybody and his grandmother is experimenting with automanips all of the sudden. Do I get a prize for starting a trend? :P ))QuoteOY!Do yer own frikkin' research! Though now that the search function is borked, I guess one could be forgiven for not wanting to use that unpractical solution using google search.
How do automanips work? I need some help before I can start with Grate's design.QuoteAnd thereby my tinker project is already completed.Indeed, a good tinkerer will always start out with researching if there are existing things already that do what you need. A good tinkerer is quite lazy, like a good programmer really.
Man I'm good at this.QuoteWe REALLY need to do some science on Grate.We need to determine what Grate retains from his current form when he dies. e.g. If his brain is removed to be put into a synthflesh body, does he even keep the quantum immortality?(problem: if not, the whole enterprise becomes kinda moot, since the only way of testing it is killing Grate and seeing what happens)
I mean think about it, if we could give his quantum immortality to OUR TITAN....
And if he dies while being full synthflesh, does he return full synthflesh? If yes, interesting options there.
This is the third auto manip launcher I've seen this post. I'm starting to feel like I'm trapped in some sort of tinker purgatory. Send help.
For that chemical charge...ohhhh, baseball sized.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 10, 2014, 04:17:25 pm
1.Gauss cannons (the man portable guns that are basically upgraded, larger gauss rifles) have 16th kiloton shells.And how big are those shells? Could they be sized down to normal-bullet-sized ones, albeit with smaller yields? Would any such bullets be able to be fired at people without the shooter being in danger?
Quote
2. They don't hybridize. You can have a synth-flesh limb attached to a normal body, but they're not hybrid, it's just attached like a normal robot limb or prosthetic.That's boring.
What's the fleshy part of synthflesh, anyways? Plastic? Rubber? Undefined intermediate polymer?
Quote
...Might not be practical for my plans.Hey, how big is an automanip? Such information is important for my planned Battlesuit-killer!Depends on what they're being used for and how powerful they are. The ones in cannons like the ones on the sword are the size of small trucks.
You don't need to be piecewise to answer, you know...
Quote
How big would an automanip for something like that be? And how flexible of a shape?So, several inches?This is basically the same as the Microwave glue bomb someone made elsewhere in this reply. Except it's gonna be more expensive. and bigger.
Mortar shell or something it is, I guess.Grate attempts to make the aforedescribed weapon for his Simus project, without destroying his virtual self.Spoiler: The Grate Shell (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Another Grate Weapon (click to show/hide)
Post by: syvarris on February 10, 2014, 06:15:33 pm
Yeah, TPU is on the wiki. I put it there.
Problem is that there's no weight for anything, so I don't know if strapping two gauss cannon generators on the thing would be light enough, or if it is how much weight I have left over. Although... really, a cutting laser should draw massively more power than 200 HP, so it's probably not very important...
How much would an 8 TPU generator (four gauss rifle/two gauss cannon equivalent) cost by itself, without the extra costs presumably caused by needing gauss generators to be miniaturized? Twenty pounds, unless it can be smaller for the same price.
Next question, how effective is the cutting laser at range? Test against a battlesuit at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000, and 3000m.
-----------
PROJECT ABS-8
As to the sticky rocket, twenty degrees is a lot. At least, if it affects the right area- the brain. If your brain is just a few degrees off temp, it's doing pretty bad. Serious seizures start happening when your brain is just five degrees over. Twenty degrees should start doing damage pretty much immediately, making coordinated dexterity hard at the least. And then, even if the manip cuts out after five seconds, their brain is still hot, and it's not going to cool before the pilot goes into a coma. Especially considering the air jumped twenty degrees too. Oh, and full robobodies should be just as susceptible- they have brains to cook too.
As far as range... How big is a battlesuit? Is the head of the pilot more than three meters up? If so, how much would it cost to increase the automanip's heating radius so it's one meter taller than a battlesuit? I'll assume it costs one token for the test.
So: Take the design I have. Create a large urban battlefield, then spawn two opposing forces a distance away. Each is composed of fifty sods with MKI suits and gauss or laser rifles alongside five battlesuits piloted by a UWM trooper in MKI. One side gets five trained UWM operatives equipped with my launcher, and four tokens worth of stealth technology for sneaking up on a battlesuit. The other side gets the same operatives, but only equipped with Piezoelectric shard launchers- no stealth stuff.
Both sides have remote commanders who have good knowledge of their force's positions, and good communications with the troops.
Run the battle an arbitrary amount of times. Who wins more often? Try to figure out why- what's the biggest failing in my weapon?
((I'm mildly surprised that this might be a feasible weapon. Only costs eight or nine tokens, and extra shots cost two if you can recover the manip. Also, it can function as a trap, leaves the battlesuit at least mostly recoverable, and should be pretty light. It's not even as short ranged as I thought it would be.
It's actually really similar to a futuristic AT4 with some added functionality, come to think of it.))
Post by: syvarris on February 10, 2014, 06:16:03 pm
Post by: Corsair on February 11, 2014, 04:23:46 am
Gain medium = the object that produces a laser (coherent light) when energised with another energy source including other lasersSame game different rules...I have no idea what you're trying to make there. Pump with a laser? Help.
enter session with simus and others move slightly away from the group spawn two battle suits facing each other one normally assembled and one shown mechanically explodedtest systemSpoiler: design (click to show/hide)
Pump = energy source for Gain medium
As above
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 11, 2014, 05:12:43 am
((I normally call that a "lasing medium". And it would really do to take a page out of the Star Trek book on technological specifications, and provide concise descriptions to go with your technobabble - regardless of whether the babble is fictional or realistic, because past a certain point many people won't be able to tell. Like PW there. :)Gain medium = the object that produces a laser (coherent light) when energised with another energy source including other lasersSame game different rules...I have no idea what you're trying to make there. Pump with a laser? Help.
enter session with simus and others move slightly away from the group spawn two battle suits facing each other one normally assembled and one shown mechanically explodedtest systemSpoiler: design (click to show/hide)
Pump = energy source for Gain medium
As above
For PW's convenience, you are making a shoulder-fired laser cannon out of a capacitor bank and a series of reinforced laser rifle emitters chained to fire in phase - a linear phased array laser with a backpack powersource, if that even makes sense.))
Post by: Corsair on February 11, 2014, 06:11:25 am
((I normally call that a "lasing medium". And it would really do to take a page out of the Star Trek book on technological specifications, and provide concise descriptions to go with your technobabble - regardless of whether the babble is fictional or realistic, because past a certain point many people won't be able to tell. Like PW there. :)((a good thind to keep in mind :)))
For PW's convenience, you are making a shoulder-fired laser cannon out of a capacitor bank and a series of reinforced laser rifle emitters chained to fire in phase - a linear phased array laser with a backpack powersource, if that even makes sense.))((Well that is entirely accurate,and yes I have absolutely no clue how powerful the final beam would be or its power drain))
Post by: BFEL on February 11, 2014, 11:15:32 am
((I normally call that a "lasing medium". And it would really do to take a page out of the Star Trek book on technological specifications, and provide concise descriptions to go with your technobabble - regardless of whether the babble is fictional or realistic, because past a certain point many people won't be able to tell. Like PW there. :)((a good thind to keep in mind :)))For PW's convenience, you are making a shoulder-fired laser cannon out of a capacitor bank and a series of reinforced laser rifle emitters chained to fire in phase - a linear phased array laser with a backpack powersource, if that even makes sense.))((Well that is entirely accurate,and yes I have absolutely no clue how powerful the final beam would be or its power drain))
So if I'm reading this right then you're basically making a normal laser, but instead of just using ONE lens, you are putting it through multiple lenses?
If this works...hmm I wonder if you could "reverse" the last lens to make the beam scatter over a wide area, or if that would just lower the power that you've gained from the other redundant focusing lenses. Probably the second.
Also if you put TOO many lenses in I assume the beam would be focused enough that it just shatters the last one.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 11, 2014, 11:34:40 am
Post by: BFEL on February 11, 2014, 11:40:09 am
Hey, it works in XCOM. Anastasiya "Socks" Smirnova, may she rest in peace, can prove it.YOU LET "Socks" DIE? YOU BASTARD, I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO THAT.
Because my first "volunteer" got the same nickname. Ah Alice Evans, how utterly badass you were.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 11, 2014, 11:51:28 am
And she wouldn't have had a chance at Volunteerhood. I never even caught an Outsider, and even if I had I couldn't have finished the Base Assault mission because of graphics issues. (Apparently, I don't have enough video memory.)
Post by: piecewise on February 11, 2014, 01:43:12 pm
1.Gauss cannons (the man portable guns that are basically upgraded, larger gauss rifles) have 16th kiloton shells.And how big are those shells? Could they be sized down to normal-bullet-sized ones, albeit with smaller yields? Would any such bullets be able to be fired at people without the shooter being in danger?Quote2. They don't hybridize. You can have a synth-flesh limb attached to a normal body, but they're not hybrid, it's just attached like a normal robot limb or prosthetic.That's boring.
What's the fleshy part of synthflesh, anyways? Plastic? Rubber? Undefined intermediate polymer?Quote...Might not be practical for my plans.Hey, how big is an automanip? Such information is important for my planned Battlesuit-killer!Depends on what they're being used for and how powerful they are. The ones in cannons like the ones on the sword are the size of small trucks.
You don't need to be piecewise to answer, you know...QuoteHow big would an automanip for something like that be? And how flexible of a shape?So, several inches?This is basically the same as the Microwave glue bomb someone made elsewhere in this reply. Except it's gonna be more expensive. and bigger.
Mortar shell or something it is, I guess.Grate attempts to make the aforedescribed weapon for his Simus project, without destroying his virtual self.Spoiler: The Grate Shell (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Another Grate Weapon (click to show/hide)
1. For shells that size you're better off with conventional explosives.
2.Synthflesh is 100% organic. And angry
3. Not very big. Size of a zippo lighter maybe?
PROJECT OVERWATCH:Oh god thats a lot of text.
Yeah, TPU is on the wiki. I put it there.
Problem is that there's no weight for anything, so I don't know if strapping two gauss cannon generators on the thing would be light enough, or if it is how much weight I have left over. Although... really, a cutting laser should draw massively more power than 200 HP, so it's probably not very important...
How much would an 8 TPU generator (four gauss rifle/two gauss cannon equivalent) cost by itself, without the extra costs presumably caused by needing gauss generators to be miniaturized? Twenty pounds, unless it can be smaller for the same price.
Next question, how effective is the cutting laser at range? Test against a battlesuit at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000, and 3000m.
-----------
PROJECT ABS-8
As to the sticky rocket, twenty degrees is a lot. At least, if it affects the right area- the brain. If your brain is just a few degrees off temp, it's doing pretty bad. Serious seizures start happening when your brain is just five degrees over. Twenty degrees should start doing damage pretty much immediately, making coordinated dexterity hard at the least. And then, even if the manip cuts out after five seconds, their brain is still hot, and it's not going to cool before the pilot goes into a coma. Especially considering the air jumped twenty degrees too. Oh, and full robobodies should be just as susceptible- they have brains to cook too.
As far as range... How big is a battlesuit? Is the head of the pilot more than three meters up? If so, how much would it cost to increase the automanip's heating radius so it's one meter taller than a battlesuit? I'll assume it costs one token for the test.
So: Take the design I have. Create a large urban battlefield, then spawn two opposing forces a distance away. Each is composed of fifty sods with MKI suits and gauss or laser rifles alongside five battlesuits piloted by a UWM trooper in MKI. One side gets five trained UWM operatives equipped with my launcher, and four tokens worth of stealth technology for sneaking up on a battlesuit. The other side gets the same operatives, but only equipped with Piezoelectric shard launchers- no stealth stuff.
Both sides have remote commanders who have good knowledge of their force's positions, and good communications with the troops.
Run the battle an arbitrary amount of times. Who wins more often? Try to figure out why- what's the biggest failing in my weapon?
((I'm mildly surprised that this might be a feasible weapon. Only costs eight or nine tokens, and extra shots cost two if you can recover the manip. Also, it can function as a trap, leaves the battlesuit at least mostly recoverable, and should be pretty light. It's not even as short ranged as I thought it would be.
It's actually really similar to a futuristic AT4 with some added functionality, come to think of it.))
An 8 tpu generator made using gauss gens would be like 5 token. And I believe the gens for those are like...I dunno, size of a deck of playing cards or so? So stack 8 of them and theres your size. Couple of pounds.
Cutting laser isn't really effective against battlesuits. Remember, their armor is made resistant to it using the reflective fibers that are spread through it.
Yeah, but that assumes you're hitting the exact right place for that to happen. It's gonna be a case of get a 5 and it's an insta kill, get a 4 and it doesn't do jack.
Battle suit is, say, 3 meters tall. Pilot's head is probably at about 7 feet off the ground, maybe a little higher. Not sure what you mean though. You want to heat like, an oblong, pill shaped area from where the thing hits up like 3 meters, so you can just aim low and not have to worry about being direct?
That simulation...probably still the piezo guys because of the area off effect of it. But not by much. Gotta remember too, that 150 miles an hour isn't outside the range of being smacked or shot down by keen eyed pilots while the shards are much faster.
So...just a big laser? I'm not seeing what makes this different from a normal laser, but bigger. Are you just trying to take a cutting laser and turn it into more of a pulsed thing?Gain medium = the object that produces a laser (coherent light) when energised with another energy source including other lasersSame game different rules...I have no idea what you're trying to make there. Pump with a laser? Help.
enter session with simus and others move slightly away from the group spawn two battle suits facing each other one normally assembled and one shown mechanically explodedtest systemSpoiler: design (click to show/hide)
Pump = energy source for Gain medium
As above
Post by: Corsair on February 11, 2014, 03:45:47 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 11, 2014, 03:53:46 pm
Put the automanip in a pistol grip. Make sure not to put it in backwards or anything stupid like that. Add a laser sight (you don't want to be missing with this) and a trigger. Change the cylindrical beam from 20 cm wide to 2 cm wide, and make it start right in front of the "barrel" (the other end is still 20 meters away). Fire this at a battlesuit. Observe results.
Can automanips be targeted by remote beacon thing? E.g, toss a beacon at someone, press a button, the automanip blows up the beacon?
What kind of armor is this, anyways? Materials? Structure?
And why is synthflesh so special if it's just organic? Or is that information above my security clearance? Would it be possible to infuse normal flesh with synthiness?
Post by: PyroDesu on February 11, 2014, 06:35:01 pm
Anton, those are not up to me, it's Miyamoto you want for deciding on your fire extinguisher of a flying plasma cannon, as well as on your armed shuttles. And i'll see your side project when the others finish their task and I've decided whether they can stay. I already have some idea, but this is the finisher. And I'm sure you can ask Jim and Milno to come and see something if you want them to, just text them.
Oh, and that improved pure fusion bomb I talked with you about? I have it here. Fairly simple when it comes down to it, yes? This one is optimized to a 1 kiloton yield, but it can be scaled up and down - well, down to a point - by changing the thickness of the aluminium liner, see?
Post by: syvarris on February 12, 2014, 12:47:29 am
So:
Why would it have to hit the exact right spot? I said to make the manip heat everything withing a three meter radius, and upgraded that to a four meter radius. That should create a sphere of heat centered on the manip. If it hits the battlesuit's foot, every part of the entire machine should be hit, because the manip isn't leaving holes. In fact, if the pilot's head is seven feet up, it should be able to hit the ground four feet away and still catch his brain.
Maybe you're confused because I said radius? If it has a four meter radius, it creates an eight meter wide sphere centered on the manip.
Not that you should aim at the ground, it's just that rolling a three should be sufficient, because that's a "near-miss".
Modify the design slightly. Change the activation signal so that an MK suit can transmit it, like the mininukes in the armory. Also, modify the projectile so that it has a little handle or something, for easy manipulation.
Re-run the sim with the corrected design, and tell the users of this thing that it can be used as a trap- hide the projectile at the entrance to an alley, then activate it when a battlesuit walks over. Also, place seven users of my device rather than five, but remove the stealth equipment.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 12, 2014, 03:01:03 am
Succinctly, yes. And it should work, in theory. I don't have very many concrete numbers, especially since I adapted the idea from a propulsion system. But I'm fairly sure the theory is good.((To put it in simple and wildly inaccurate layman's terms, this is mostly just a different way of achieving the fusion conditions - temperature and pressure. It really boils down to compressing the fusion fuel and adding energy to it. The radio antenna adds the energy, in lieu of massive compression heating. The aluminum shell in a magnetic field does essentially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sxuBsAFuI4), except the shell is very thin and the field is more uniform, resulting in uniformly and rapidly compressed shell, with the fuel compressed inside, and the radio antenna pumps in enough energy to achieve fusion.
Like I said earlier, there are only two questions. How large the rig for this needs to be (heavy-duty electromagnets tend to be thick and heavy), and how large the extreme-density power cell feeding the power needs to be.))
Quote
Anton, those are not up to me, it's Miyamoto you want for deciding on your fire extinguisher of a flying plasma cannon, as well as on your armed shuttles. And i'll see your side project when the others finish their task and I've decided whether they can stay. I already have some idea, but this is the finisher. And I'm sure you can ask Jim and Milno to come and see something if you want them to, just text them."Oh, is that the device? I see. Curious. A rather... different setup. Cheaper, but different. Seems like it needs a whole lot of power to initiate. Might want to take a page from the Black Death and use one of the extreme-density power cells, if it'll scale down well enough, otherwise I really don't see it fitting in a missile warhead. Not on a shuttle-carried missile, at least. Power cells be heavy.
Oh, and that improved pure fusion bomb I talked with you about? I have it here. Fairly simple when it comes down to it, yes? This one is optimized to a 1 kiloton yield, but it can be scaled up and down - well, down to a point - by changing the thickness of the aluminium liner, see?
Well, I'll leave you to work it out then. I'll go ask what Miyamoto has to say on the ships."
Anton leaves Simus' area and finds a clear patch of Cyberspace to contact Miyamoto.
(continued in the on-ship thread because no longer Tinker)
Post by: PyroDesu on February 12, 2014, 04:10:40 am
And playing around with one of my more-used calculators (http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php), one that lets you set custom laser parameters and see performance, I think I can say that the batteries used in our laser rifles have at least 350kW worth of juice in them. These things have been known to cut or melt through decently thick metal, let's call it steel for ease, yeah? At 10kW with a 1cm beam diameter at the target you're making holes about... 7.13mm deep. That's a single second of firing (10kJ per second). The full battery would have 600kJ, normally discharging at 10kW. And that value is probably pretty underrepresented, since I mean, how much liquid metal do you think you'd get out of 10 seconds of firing that, if it's set to heat rather than drill, at the same power? Probably not enough to make a metal cast for your leg, like Milno did in Mission 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106279.msg3184138#msg3184138).
Feel free to play around with it, but I think I've made my point.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 12, 2014, 04:29:44 am
Also, yeah, that sounds pretty low as far as power requirements go. But the numbers to go with those yields would be neat. A propulsion system is inherently designed to be only powerful enough to push the ship, not destroy it - and any fusion blasts that don't damage a ship detonating them in its stern point blank are of questionable use as actual weapons. Well, besides what the Kzinti Lesson shows - good constant energy output from numerous small pulses is a good continuous weapon, but a subpar bomb.))
Post by: PyroDesu on February 12, 2014, 04:51:08 am
Now, keeping in mind that a lot of that power is probably going to the magnetic nozzle to contain and direct those detonations as thrust.
Best numbers that might satisfy you that I can come up with are thrust for what I can only assume is each pulse, contained and directed: Low-gear gets 103 Newtons, high-gear gets 13,800 Newtons. Both have an exhaust velocity of 23,940m/s to 56,110m/s.
Also keep in mind that I'm basically working blind here. For obvious reasons, there weren't any studies as to whether this would make a good weapon, though as the Kzinti Lesson (Speaking of, has anyone else here actually read the Man-Kzin Wars novels?) taught us, any decent spacecraft propulsion is a pretty decent weapon in it's own right.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 12, 2014, 06:15:32 am
Of course, me being a verisimilitude-wielding quasi-engineer that mostly uses the various wikis for knowledge, you should probably recheck those numbers yourself, but my point still kinda stands. It takes a nuclear explosion to initiate fusion normally, and you can't take energy from nowhere to do that even with handy magnetic compression. You're really going to need a serious powersource.
(and seriously, try to ignore the way I use units... I just like the descriptions more when they're evocative, and a "kilogram-force" you can easily see as a force that supports a kilogram, or likewise a ton-force launching a lightweight compact vehicle into the air... stuff like that.)))
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 12, 2014, 04:05:04 pm
As we all know, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In the case of walking and jumping, we apply a force to the ground, and the ground applies a force to us.
Create a person with kinetic amps in his boots, right-side-up and up-side-down. See what happens with these two when they walk, run, and jump. Spawn new people as needed.
Post by: NAV on February 12, 2014, 04:18:16 pm
Secondary idea:This already exists. Faith found them in the vr a long time ago. They work well on solid terrain, but dig a pit if you try using them on soft ground.
As we all know, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In the case of walking and jumping, we apply a force to the ground, and the ground applies a force to us.
Create a person with kinetic amps in his boots, right-side-up and up-side-down. See what happens with these two when they walk, run, and jump. Spawn new people as needed.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 12, 2014, 04:42:13 pm
EDIT: And if you turn them upside down, you'll just turn your feet into minced meat.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 12, 2014, 04:43:55 pm
I think that won't work. Kinetic amps don't have opposite reaction.I know this. However, the reaction the ground (or whatever) gives is an action, which can be enhanced.
Also, try punching with a backwards kinetic amp. Does this do anything? Reduce force or something?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 12, 2014, 04:46:07 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 12, 2014, 04:59:43 pm
Post by: NAV on February 12, 2014, 05:37:24 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 12, 2014, 05:58:56 pm
((A more efficient, cheaper, more powerful laser that can be broken down into the primary parts of 3 laser rifles (one with a sniper scope) also It would be 3 laser rifles trained on one spot (if the power gain is linear)))
Hmm. So excuse my possible lack of comprehension here.
Basically, you want to take three laser rifles apart and then stick them together into a single rifle with the beams all being focused through one lens to make a beam that is 3 times as powerful as an average laser rifle?
Which automanip is lighter-sized? The beam-hydrogenizing one? What makes the automanips need to be bigger (ie, is it just complexity or does increasing AoE/magnitude make it bigger too?), and how much? Can you think of a better word for this than "hydrogenizing"?No, that one would be bigger. Harder job. Converting material is the most difficult thing to do.
Put the automanip in a pistol grip. Make sure not to put it in backwards or anything stupid like that. Add a laser sight (you don't want to be missing with this) and a trigger. Change the cylindrical beam from 20 cm wide to 2 cm wide, and make it start right in front of the "barrel" (the other end is still 20 meters away). Fire this at a battlesuit. Observe results.
Can automanips be targeted by remote beacon thing? E.g, toss a beacon at someone, press a button, the automanip blows up the beacon?
What kind of armor is this, anyways? Materials? Structure?
And why is synthflesh so special if it's just organic? Or is that information above my security clearance? Would it be possible to infuse normal flesh with synthiness?
Harder jobs, greater area of effect, greater degree of effect, they all increase size and price.
"Transmuting into hydrogen?"
Nuuuuh. Has to be a confined area. Beams have no end. It would just convert everything forever in that direction. Nuuuuh.
Nuuuuh. They only target in relation to themselves and always the same way.
Armor? What?
Nuuuuh. Yes. NUUUUUUH
Succinctly, yes. And it should work, in theory. I don't have very many concrete numbers, especially since I adapted the idea from a propulsion system. But I'm fairly sure the theory is good.
Anton, those are not up to me, it's Miyamoto you want for deciding on your fire extinguisher of a flying plasma cannon, as well as on your armed shuttles. And i'll see your side project when the others finish their task and I've decided whether they can stay. I already have some idea, but this is the finisher. And I'm sure you can ask Jim and Milno to come and see something if you want them to, just text them.
Oh, and that improved pure fusion bomb I talked with you about? I have it here. Fairly simple when it comes down to it, yes? This one is optimized to a 1 kiloton yield, but it can be scaled up and down - well, down to a point - by changing the thickness of the aluminium liner, see?
Alright. How much you think it would cost in Tokens? I assume you can guess with some degree of accuracy.
Hrm. Can the overwatch project for now. Still useful as anti-infantry, but not as nice as it was.
So:
Why would it have to hit the exact right spot? I said to make the manip heat everything withing a three meter radius, and upgraded that to a four meter radius. That should create a sphere of heat centered on the manip. If it hits the battlesuit's foot, every part of the entire machine should be hit, because the manip isn't leaving holes. In fact, if the pilot's head is seven feet up, it should be able to hit the ground four feet away and still catch his brain.
Maybe you're confused because I said radius? If it has a four meter radius, it creates an eight meter wide sphere centered on the manip.
Not that you should aim at the ground, it's just that rolling a three should be sufficient, because that's a "near-miss".
Modify the design slightly. Change the activation signal so that an MK suit can transmit it, like the mininukes in the armory. Also, modify the projectile so that it has a little handle or something, for easy manipulation.
Re-run the sim with the corrected design, and tell the users of this thing that it can be used as a trap- hide the projectile at the entrance to an alley, then activate it when a battlesuit walks over. Also, place seven users of my device rather than five, but remove the stealth equipment.
Yeah, I know, I wasn't saying it wouldn't work, and yeah, I understand you want it bigger but there are a lot of things in the design that can fail. You can miss, the glue can fail to stick and the guy will move outside the range. Quick thinking pilots can activate their claymores before they pass out, or just shoot the relatively slow moving missile out of the sky. It's not that it's an ineffective weapon, it's just not a fool proof battle suit killer.
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 12, 2014, 06:09:24 pm
Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 12, 2014, 06:15:04 pm
No, that one would be bigger. Harder job. Converting material is the most difficult thing to do.Wait, then which one was lighter-sized? And how big would the hydrogenizing one be?
Quote
"Transmuting into hydrogen?"A bit clunky, but it works I guess.
Quote
Nuuuuh. Has to be a confined area. Beams have no end. It would just convert everything forever in that direction. Nuuuuh.Damn my poor word choice! It's supposed to end after 20 meters.
Quote
Nuuuuh. They only target in relation to themselves and always the same way.Darn.
Quote
Armor? What?Oh, right, you can't be expected to remember what I was doing last time. You're busy.
I was asking what kind of armor the battlesuits we're supposed to be penetrating are.
Make an automanip that transmutes a 1-cm-wide, 20-meter-long cylinder in front of it into hydrogen. Determine how big it is, and if it could be made to fit in/as part of a pistol/rifle/whatever frame. If so, put a laser sight on it (again, not a weapon you want to miss with) and test it out on a guy in a battlesuit, to see how well it works. Estimate cost of setup.
Post by: syvarris on February 12, 2014, 10:35:08 pm
Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 (click to show/hide)
Send the schematics to Simus, along with the following message.
Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis
I have completed your assigned project. My device has proven to be four tokens cheaper than the piezoelectric shard generator, although combat simulations have shown it to be somewhat less effective as well.
Notably, it leaves the battlesuit mostly recoverable, and has the capacity to be used as a trap. Frankly, the latter function is probably more useful than firing it- its primary reason for being conventionally launched is to fulfill your assignment's requirement.
((Normally, Saint would set up a demonstration of the device and give a run down on its capabilities in person, but I've been in the hospital for two weeks and just went through surgery so... not feeling it. Sorry.))
Finally, relax and have the VR pull up information on the red moon rebellion. Don't look for anything in particular, just let the VR show me stuff. (Hint hint PW)
Post by: Corsair on February 13, 2014, 03:45:05 am
((A more efficient, cheaper, more powerful laser that can be broken down into the primary parts of 3 laser rifles (one with a sniper scope) also It would be 3 laser rifles trained on one spot (if the power gain is linear)))
Hmm. So excuse my possible lack of comprehension here.
Basically, you want to take three laser rifles apart and then stick them together into a single rifle with the beams all being focused through one lens to make a beam that is 3 times as powerful as an average laser rifle?
((Yes, although the output would be higher than simply three laser rifles I believe, as each beam is charged with the preceding ones it would have power over 1 second equal to 3 laser rifles over a time period of the overall charge))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 13, 2014, 04:43:12 am
((You won't get more power than 3 laser rifles, but you will be able to do more damage than 3 laser rifles, since you are delivering all the energy as a single beam. Not by much, however.((A more efficient, cheaper, more powerful laser that can be broken down into the primary parts of 3 laser rifles (one with a sniper scope) also It would be 3 laser rifles trained on one spot (if the power gain is linear)))
Hmm. So excuse my possible lack of comprehension here.
Basically, you want to take three laser rifles apart and then stick them together into a single rifle with the beams all being focused through one lens to make a beam that is 3 times as powerful as an average laser rifle?
((Yes, although the output would be higher than simply three laser rifles I believe, as each beam is charged with the preceding ones it would have power over 1 second equal to 3 laser rifles over a time period of the overall charge))
I have to say, the task is both too broadly defined and too difficult. There aren't that many ways to destroy a Battlesuit with any "weapon", and there is a very finite amount of ways to make a conventional weapon to do so. For instance, you can just get a megaton nuke - fair game since it's Aux - and build a giant potato gun to launch it. It'd be far more prudent to just tell everybody to build the most original combat-useful thing they can think of, because with no resource limits you can do any amount of stuff to the Battlesuit that is useless in any but the specific circumstances of the VR test.))
Post by: piecewise on February 13, 2014, 10:01:22 am
WHY AM I IN TINKER AGAIN
Look at you throwing around the Armor shrikes and Double edges like I don't have the box set of Blue gender on my shelf AT THIS VERY DAMN MOMENT.Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
So wha, you wanna make a double edge, but one that doesn't make you go kill crazy? Seems reasonable. Hell, they're one of the few mechs that are really sorta realistic in anime. Reasonable size, move quickly using wheels instead of running, etc.
No, that one would be bigger. Harder job. Converting material is the most difficult thing to do.Wait, then which one was lighter-sized? And how big would the hydrogenizing one be?Quote"Transmuting into hydrogen?"A bit clunky, but it works I guess.QuoteNuuuuh. Has to be a confined area. Beams have no end. It would just convert everything forever in that direction. Nuuuuh.Damn my poor word choice! It's supposed to end after 20 meters.QuoteNuuuuh. They only target in relation to themselves and always the same way.Darn.QuoteArmor? What?Oh, right, you can't be expected to remember what I was doing last time. You're busy.
I was asking what kind of armor the battlesuits we're supposed to be penetrating are.
Make an automanip that transmutes a 1-cm-wide, 20-meter-long cylinder in front of it into hydrogen. Determine how big it is, and if it could be made to fit in/as part of a pistol/rifle/whatever frame. If so, put a laser sight on it (again, not a weapon you want to miss with) and test it out on a guy in a battlesuit, to see how well it works. Estimate cost of setup.In case this doesn'tBecause this probably won't work efficiently, also work on something else. Maybe some kind of armor-piercing nuclear bullet? This would be a lot easier if my inquiry about the armor was understood...
Depends on how much you want to transmute.
20 meters long and 2 cm thick? You're gonna learn someday that it's not length that really matters, it's girth. So yeah Doing that....size of a brick. Would be effective though.
Oh. It's a composite of very hard metallic-ceramics laced with reflective fibers. Good against both solid and laser projectiles. Less good against plasma.
That setup is brick sized and works. You'd need to fire through something that actually, you know, is vital or its just gonna annoy the thing, but assuming you do it works.
Nuclear bullets are hard to make at sizes smaller then like a fist, at best.
Save project as open-source in Tinker.Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 (click to show/hide)
Send the schematics to Simus, along with the following message.Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis
I have completed your assigned project. My device has proven to be four tokens cheaper than the piezoelectric shard generator, although combat simulations have shown it to be somewhat less effective as well.
Notably, it leaves the battlesuit mostly recoverable, and has the capacity to be used as a trap. Frankly, the latter function is probably more useful than firing it- its primary reason for being conventionally launched is to fulfill your assignment's requirement.
((Normally, Saint would set up a demonstration of the device and give a run down on its capabilities in person, but I've been in the hospital for two weeks and just went through surgery so... not feeling it. Sorry.))
Finally, relax and have the VR pull up information on the red moon rebellion. Don't look for anything in particular, just let the VR show me stuff. (Hint hint PW)
Oh god it's too early to do lore. Er. Fast version. Without artistry.
So there were these three moons of a gas giant right? They mined shit there, mostly. Oh and the moons were red. Go fucking figure right? Anyways, they mined lots of shit there. Lots of civie workers, big complex of homes and facilities stacked like a tin beehive. And the UWM were being kinda dicks to them, undercutting their prices and forcing discounts and generally making it hard to live under the excuse of security reasons. Treating them like second class citizens too. So the miners protested and the UWM did what it usually does to protestors, which involves guns NOT filled with less then lethal ammo. Massacre of Hellion Heights happens, peaceful resistance goes violent, rebellion spreads to other two planets, big fucking thing. UWM comes enmasse, stomps the planets, basically arrests their entire population and then recrews the planets with prisoners from other worlds. Bad time had by all.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 13, 2014, 11:19:21 am
20 meters long and 2 cm thick? You're gonna learn someday that it's not length that really matters, it's girth. So yeah Doing that....size of a brick. Would be effective though.Length is, however, useful if you don't want to close to melee range with whatever you're shooting at.
Quote
Oh. It's a composite of very hard metallic-ceramics laced with reflective fibers. Good against both solid and laser projectiles. Less good against plasma.Hm. I really wish I knew more about ceramics.
Why is plasma more effective? Is it the heat?
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 13, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
I'M IN TINKER AGAIN
WHY AM I IN TINKER AGAINLook at you throwing around the Armor shrikes and Double edges like I don't have the box set of Blue gender on my shelf AT THIS VERY DAMN MOMENT.Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
So wha, you wanna make a double edge, but one that doesn't make you go kill crazy? Seems reasonable. Hell, they're one of the few mechs that are really sorta realistic in anime. Reasonable size, move quickly using wheels instead of running, etc.
How many tokens would it cost with the normal weapons? And how much would each weapon or option like the double blades cost if the characters decided to change the weapons? And how much would something more like the Armour shrikes before the Double Edge appeared?
Post by: syvarris on February 13, 2014, 05:42:52 pm
Bleh. If PW feels like storytelling/worldbuilding, have the VR find something interesting to show me. Otherwise, pull up an MK suit suit and start charging a dynamic AUX bonus for looking at it.
Post by: Corsair on February 14, 2014, 02:18:14 am
Post by: piecewise on February 14, 2014, 01:24:15 pm
Pretty much. The fibers will diffuse lasers and make them much less effective, but the plasma just freaking melts them and the armor.20 meters long and 2 cm thick? You're gonna learn someday that it's not length that really matters, it's girth. So yeah Doing that....size of a brick. Would be effective though.Length is, however, useful if you don't want to close to melee range with whatever you're shooting at.QuoteOh. It's a composite of very hard metallic-ceramics laced with reflective fibers. Good against both solid and laser projectiles. Less good against plasma.Hm. I really wish I knew more about ceramics.
Why is plasma more effective? Is it the heat?
Probably something like 15 tokens for the whole thing, with weapons and such. Because they're not terribly complex, kinda like a light battlesuit but with less options. Weapons, at least the normal guns, would all cost about the same. Think..5 tokens.I'M IN TINKER AGAIN
WHY AM I IN TINKER AGAINLook at you throwing around the Armor shrikes and Double edges like I don't have the box set of Blue gender on my shelf AT THIS VERY DAMN MOMENT.Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
So wha, you wanna make a double edge, but one that doesn't make you go kill crazy? Seems reasonable. Hell, they're one of the few mechs that are really sorta realistic in anime. Reasonable size, move quickly using wheels instead of running, etc.
How many tokens would it cost with the normal weapons? And how much would each weapon or option like the double blades cost if the characters decided to change the weapons? And how much would something more like the Armour shrikes before the Double Edge appeared?
((Aww, I was hoping for some quality PW storytelling. Oh well.))
Bleh. If PW feels like storytelling/worldbuilding, have the VR find something interesting to show me. Otherwise, pull up an MK suit suit and start charging a dynamic AUX bonus for looking at it.
Hmm. Well, interesting in what way? What kinda thing you wanna see? Otherwise I will ramble about completely unrelated crap.
test triple laser thingy on battle suit and save as "triple-laser-thingy"Well, it's not gonna be triple powerful (more like 2.5 because of losses through the focusing mediums) but it does alright against battlesuits. Really though, battle suits are bad targets to try lasers against since even cutting lasers have a hard time with them.
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 14, 2014, 01:27:26 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 14, 2014, 01:52:45 pm
I think I'll try something slightly 40k-inspired.
Title Project "Monobolas".
Connect two weights with the thin wire stuff a monorazor's "blade" is made out of. Include some kind of vibrator mechanism in the weights to make the wire oscillate (one retracts while the other releases).
Create a launcher which launches them at high speed. Perhaps a Gauss thing?
Test on a human, a wooden pillar, and a battlesuit. Determine price.
Post by: syvarris on February 14, 2014, 01:59:20 pm
GWG, that's already been done. Look up Bishop's MBL design. It's fairly effective against battlesuits, assuming they don't react quickly and break the cord.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 14, 2014, 05:41:31 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 14, 2014, 05:52:42 pm
((Didnt they need to smash the actual bolas? Trying to break the wire itself seems like kind of a bad idea.))((There's a finite speed they can cut at, at the thickness where they can be used in bolas, and they are fundamentally fairly fragile when not taut - a battlesuit has enough armor to stay together long enough to wiggle itself until they break.))
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 14, 2014, 06:05:52 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 14, 2014, 07:15:54 pm
GWG, that's already been done. Look up Bishop's MBL design. It's fairly effective against battlesuits, assuming they don't react quickly and break the cord.Goddammit. Someone really needs to...wait, someone already indexed all the tinker stuff, didn't they? Where did that go and has it been updated lately?
Hm.
Determine how hot you need to get to melt or soften battlesuit armor. Ideally, this information would come with a suggestion or two on what (other than plasma) could easily reach such a temperature.
Post by: Corsair on February 14, 2014, 08:52:35 pm
put the big laser thingy away and begin anew!
Spoiler: new design (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on February 15, 2014, 03:22:14 pm
Again: I wish I knew more about ceramics. I'm willing to bet that battlesuit plate isn't as brittle as common pottery, though. And hm...conducts heat pretty well. Melts, obviously, but at high temperatures. And plasma is about the only non-esoteric way to get to those high temperatures. I'll try something...different.
I think I'll try something slightly 40k-inspired.
Title Project "Monobolas".
Connect two weights with the thin wire stuff a monorazor's "blade" is made out of. Include some kind of vibrator mechanism in the weights to make the wire oscillate (one retracts while the other releases).
Create a launcher which launches them at high speed. Perhaps a Gauss thing?
Test on a human, a wooden pillar, and a battlesuit. Determine price.
Read...mission 3? I think it was. Zako made that exact thing. Literally that exact thing.
>Listen to PW ramble about unrelated stuff.Quiet worlds are probably one of the more interesting ideas, in my mind, when it comes to this game. It's a sort of fundamentally different vision of the end of the world; one not of big old nukes or viruses but where people just sort of went extinct in a quiet, peaceful manner and left behind a world of high tech, self sufficient machines. I really like the concept of exploring one of them; in fact on of the original ideas that come from ER was a sort of roguelike set in a quiet world where the objective would be to penetrate as deep into the substructure as you could. Perma death, of course, with people going on on their own or in groups; making your own weapons with high tech junk, plunging the increasingly strange and magical depths, etc.
GWG, that's already been done. Look up Bishop's MBL design. It's fairly effective against battlesuits, assuming they don't react quickly and break the cord.
Around 3500 c. Try some Dicyanoacetylene or oxygen lance.GWG, that's already been done. Look up Bishop's MBL design. It's fairly effective against battlesuits, assuming they don't react quickly and break the cord.Goddammit. Someone really needs to...wait, someone already indexed all the tinker stuff, didn't they? Where did that go and has it been updated lately?
Hm.
Determine how hot you need to get to melt or soften battlesuit armor. Ideally, this information would come with a suggestion or two on what (other than plasma) could easily reach such a temperature.
okay but not quite good enoughSo basically a higher speed, lower mass gauss rifle?
put the big laser thingy away and begin anew![/b]Spoiler: new design (click to show/hide)
Post by: syvarris on February 15, 2014, 05:38:49 pm
Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 Demonstration (click to show/hide)
Then record a video of myself going through the whole thing, demonstrating and examining everything I set up in detail. Send an invitation to Simus to join the scenario with me, along with this text and the recording I just made.
Quote from: Text from Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis
I have set up a full VR demonstration of my SS/BEARD-9 prototype. I would like to walk you through it so I can detail its capabilities, so I have sent you an invitation.
However, in case you are too busy at the moment, I have also sent you a recording of myself walking through the demonstration and examining all the important things. I still recommend you join the demonstration yourself, simply so you can ask questions and test things that I have not thought of.
((Also: this quote, in case Pyro missed it.))
Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 (click to show/hide)
Send the schematics to Simus, along with the following message.Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis
I have completed your assigned project. My device has proven to be four tokens cheaper than the piezoelectric shard generator, although combat simulations have shown it to be somewhat less effective as well.
Notably, it leaves the battlesuit mostly recoverable, and has the capacity to be used as a trap. Frankly, the latter function is probably more useful than firing it- its primary reason for being conventionally launched is to fulfill your assignment's requirement.
Finally, if PW is willing, relax and pull up more data on quiet worlds. Are there any that have been really extensively explored? Any interesting stories from exploration expeditions into these worlds?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 15, 2014, 05:43:13 pm
Around 3500 c. Try some Dicyanoacetylene or oxygen lance.Right after I look up what those are.
Alright, here we go...
1. Attempt to construct a thermal lance which can be used as a projectile. In the front is hot, directed with some kind of small hole in the middle is a rube full of iron rods, and in the back is a canister of pressurized oxygen. The whole thing is encased in a protective sheath of plastic or something, as aerodynamic as it can be with a hole in the front for the burning iron to come out. Call it the Thermal Pike.
2. Attempt to make thermite with tungsten replacing the iron; if that fails, try niobium, osmium, rhenium, uranium, and zirconium; and if that fails try boron, carbon, lanthanum, and neodymium. I'm a bit fuzzy on the mechanics of oxidation, but Wikipedia says thermite can reach temperatures close to the boiling point of iron or whatever metal is oxidized in its place, and the aforementioned elements have boiling points near or well above 3,500 C.
Dicyanoacetylene's Wikipedia article is surprisingly uninspiring.
3. Fill some kind of light blue plastic sphere with dicyanoacetylene and include a lighting mechanism which can be remotely triggered. Call it the Cyan Bomb, or the DEAD (short for Dicyanoacetylene Explosively Armed Device).
Fire a Thermal Pike at a battlesuit with an appropriate gauss thingy.
Detonate any successful quasi-thermite near a battlesuit. Did I mention that I'm a bit fuzzy on how people use thermite?
Throw a DEAD or two at a battlesuit.
Determine effectiveness and cost of such weapons.
Post by: Spinal_Taper on February 16, 2014, 02:19:27 am
Test the effectiveness of different weapon types against different types of armor and other defensive measures. Include the crossbow from far back with the different bolt tips.
Post by: Corsair on February 16, 2014, 03:26:06 am
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 16, 2014, 05:39:41 am
Post by: PyroDesu on February 16, 2014, 04:58:59 pm
Resource-wise, these things could potentially be cheaper than nukes, I think. Compare the rarity of near and trans-uranic elements, especially the isotopes that are actually any good for use in nuclear weapons, to deuterium, or aluminium. About the only complicated part is the firing mechanisms. And higher yields won't really be that much more expensive since the yield goes up if you increase the mass of the aluminium liner.
Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve Saint
I will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 05:21:40 am
Anton, having finished his conversation with Miyamoto, returns to Simus.Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve SaintI will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.
"Quite right. I have also discussed the ship loadouts with General Miyamoto, and he finds the idea of a "kill button" ship as having merit. If your cheaper missiles will be cheap enough, we should just squeak into our defense budget without having to modify anything else.
Now then, this idea of mine... well. As bad a sign as it may be to preface a presentation with this, but please - don't laugh. The design may seem silly at first glance, but do believe that I put some thought behind it."
With that, Anton loads the prototype design (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4152380/019_e.png) into the Tinker session between him and Simus.
"So, this here is the Artee, as I call it. RT model non-humanoid combat support unit - a "Robotic Teammate", so to speak. On the overall, it's exactly what it looks like - an equinoid, meaning horse-like, armored robotic frame. I've thought up the general concept around the same time we were bumbling around a desolate planetoid, with rapidly dwindling means of transportation and healthcare. As with all deviations from the accepted standard - that being the humanoid frame - it has its positive and negative comparative traits."
Anton loads another snapshot, of the Artee partially disassembled to show its inner structure (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4152380/022_j.png).
"I'll start with the latter, just to get them out of the way. The most obvious issue here is the lack of what you normally call grasping appendages, or hands. The machine is capable of carrying things with a special three-prong hydraulic grasp located in its head - also capable of acting as literal "jaws of life", if you're familiar with the term - but it is uncapable of any kind of manual dexterity beyond pushing the occasional button. It is likewise unable to carry standard weaponry, instead relying on specially built or modified hardware.
Another issue is with the quadruped design, which may prove a hindrance in certain situations, for instance when operating in environments specifically meant for bipedal use - like staircases. A hindrance, however, but not a barrier - the machine is agile enough to navigate acceptably in most situations. About the only thing that will stump it is rope ladders.
A more important side effect, for combat environments, may be that it can't go prone like a humanoid can. While it can lie flat on the ground, the design of the chest section means that it'll still provide a sizeable target in that position - though that is offset by very little of its offensive ability being affected by doing so.
There's also the problem of underside armor - with the various joints and a not entirely rigid body construction it is by necessity quite weak. If a minefield were to be encountered, an Artee would suffer greater - proportionally to area exposed - damage from an explosion from below than a humanoid would. Side armor is still adequate as long as the armor panels on the flank are closed.
And, of course there's the issue of literally having to build all of the support infrastructure for these machines specifically - from production lines to repair kits, literally everything these units can use would need to be specially made for them."
Anton rubs his hands together and gestures over the design.
"That's... more or less all for negatives. That I can see at a glance, at least. Some things are neutral to design, and would likely work in a humanoid frame as well. For instance, the Artee has two regular CPUs in addition to its organic brain, which act as fire control centers to aid multi-targeting. Or, if the brain is destroyed, the CPUs can be made to take over the body and provide what I call "zombie functions" - the frame can stand, execute simple motions, and of course can aim and fire all of its weapons, though it will probably need someone to designate targets for it. Provided the body itself is sufficiently intact, of course. The chest is armored to protect the brain, and the head, which holds one of the CPUs, is elongated and tapers to a point, aiding in projectile deflection. Not going to do much against lasers, but I'll take what I can get.
Then there's the weaponry. The primary armament consists of two laser rifles, held by articulate arms that hide under the wing-like armor panels on the sides of the body. This makes the weapons less likely to be damaged when not in use, and makes the unit less intimidating to civilians - when we have our public image to think of, visual appeal in design does have a place. Additional weapons and gear include a kinetic-amp battering ram on a hydraulic mount in the top of the skull, for maximum impact force; a micro-laser like that of a standard Hand Laser mounted in the head as an auxiliary deterrent and stand-in for a cutting torch; a container of medifoam under the neck armor panels, with the nozzle ending in the tip of the unit's nose for precise application; another micro-laser, augmented with an electric spark gap, on the tip of the prehensile tail - this acts as a six-degrees-of-freedom functional electrolaser turret in atmosphere, as well as a last-resort melee weapon; and finally, two gyrojet grenade launchers under the armored panels on the thighs - four shots of any 40mm custom grenades you can think to outfit them with in each.
I'm sure that, specifics disregarded, most of this weaponry and gear could reasonably be fitted to, or carried by a humanoid frame as well, though with more difficulty and less flexibility in some cases. All of this gear is powered by an internal generator and some capacitor banks, which take up most of the internal space in the torso of the unit, with just enough space left in the back for the second auxiliary CPU."
Anton pauses for a moment to take a breath, looking at Simus for signs of possible interest or obvious disdain. Not immediately noticing either, he continues.
"Now, for the positives.
Firstly, another fairly obvious trait is the reduced forward profile. This thing could be galloping towards you, all guns firing, and would still give you the same size of target as a crouching human. Less, if you count that its legs are thinner.
Second is tied with the first, and that is armoring and survivability. A regular humanoid is pretty hard to armor - a lot of vertical space to cover, and the arrangement of joints means that infantry armor has several vulnerable areas immediately visible to the enemy. Quite like a tank, an Artee is easy to equip with definitive "fore", "side", and "hind" armor, and - quite unlike a humanoid - the vulnerable areas is does have are almost always protected from any direction except "down". The generator assembly that drives the weapons and gives it power is located directly behind the same forward plate that protects the brain, as well as the brain itself. This ties into "zombie functions" as well - direct fire from the front can destroy the braincase, but leave the power systems intact, allowing the fire control CPU in the rear to take command of what's left of the body. Whereas with a humanoid frame set up in the same way, a shot to the "gut" would disable the machine as well as a shot to the brain. The only way to inflict that sort of damage on an Artee is to flank it - a task made difficult by its array of peripheral weaponry like the tail turret, and the "wing-shields" giving it extra flank armor.
It is also a more stable firing platform while moving. A humanoid upper body moves quite a lot while running to maintain balance, and targeting can be problematic even with fire control and stabilizers - while a horse-like quadruped at full gallop still maintains its general orientation, especially around the withers area where Artee's primary weapon arms are mounted. Given its selection of weapons, that particular feature can be quite useful.
And, of course, there are the other things stemming from the horse-like design - greater carrying capacity and push/pull power, greater running speed, and even extensibility - it's easier to add something new to this frame, much like a vehicle. I've been planning a few already, in fact. "R2", the focused support frame, would trade the powerful generator and laser rifles for actual hand-like manipulators on its arms, and an extended set of tools and medical supplies, giving it more flexibility at the expense of long-term firepower. The combat modification, "R3", apart from a heavier set of armor, would feature a full-scale heavy weapon mount on its back, accepting any large personal weapon. The quadruped design allows to treat the body more like a small vehicle, which, coupled with the human-comparable agility and versatility of the frame, makes for some interesting possibilities.
Construction-wise, I have already done some calculations. The token cost for prototyping one is, quite predictably, through the roof. The array of weapons, the generator, the medifoam, the CPUs, it all adds up to a hefty sum. The cost to actually manufacture one, though, would barely be higher than that of a pair of simple robot-body Sod troops, and that's with all of its equipment already installed.
But, of course, if the single Artee was to merely fight its weight in Sods, I suppose it would lose, multi-targeting and fire control or no - humanoids might carry heavier weapons. The thing is that when I thought this idea up, I didn't want a combat sidekick, although you certainly won't beat a properly trained RT in a skeet-shooting range. It's supposed to be an all-purpose, high endurance support unit, capable of providing the average team of squishy humans with some carrying capacity, ad-hoc means of transportation, medical and engineering support, as well as some decent fire support on the side. All standardized and wrapped in a nice-looking, fast-running package that can cross any walkable terrain, needs no care for itself bar the occasional combat injury, and can actually act on its own if the need arises.
And I kinda need your go-ahead to try and put one together before the invasion. Both to avoid the kind of fuss Auron made earlier, and because I won't be able to purchase the parts I need for another year or three."
Perform prewritten prototype presentation. Politely procure proper production permissions.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 17, 2014, 05:44:48 am
1. Shoot it in the head with a BFG and it becomes a mindless potato.
2. If it's knocked over, how is it going to get up?
3. Power. What's it powered by? Magfields can only get you so far before your batteries are drained.
4. It has too much firepower for its suggested usage (think russian tanks with like 20 guns). You'd need to cart along extra ammo, reducing speed and stuff we can move. Considering we spend most of our time either running or stealing, I'd remove some of the weapons and replace them with storage canisters, for carting samples on research missions and stolen goodies on assault missions.
5. Is the production cost worth it? Why not get a bunch of Sods to haul our crap instead or bring a pneumatic exo?
6. How easily replaceable are blown off legs?
Otherwise, nice. As long as the bastards don't act like anything remotely involving MLP.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 17, 2014, 05:58:53 am
A few problems with the design:1. Backup cpu makes it more like a headless cockroach, it will still meander around for a few days before kicking the bucket because it ran out of juice.
1. Shoot it in the head with a BFG and it becomes a mindless potato.
2. If it's knocked over, how is it going to get up?
3. Power. What's it powered by? Magfields can only get you so far.
4. It has too much firepower for its suggested usage (think russian tanks with like 20 guns). You'd need to cart along ammo, reducing speed and stuff we can move. Considering we spend most of our time either running or stealing, I'd remove some of the weapons and replace them with storage canisters, for carting samples on research missions and stolen goodies on assault missions.
5. Is the production cost worth it? Why not get a bunch of Sods to haul our crap instead?
2. Horses can get up when knocked down, we arent building turtles here... yet.
3. Magical infinite production but limited rate space generators, just like gauss rifles.
4. Lasers that run off of generators dont use ammo, but yes there are way too many weapons on it.
5. Id say not worth the cost, but if you remove the superflupus weaponry it might be feasable. Also robots are cooler then sods, although i still say he shoulda made a tricerabot.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 17, 2014, 06:01:01 am
although i still say he shoulda made a tricerabot.
WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THIS EARLIER
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 17, 2014, 06:04:12 am
A few problems with the design:1. Brain is in the back. Not the head. And better zombie then dead.
1. Shoot it in the head with a BFG and it becomes a mindless potato.
2. If it's knocked over, how is it going to get up?
3. Power. What's it powered by? Magfields can only get you so far.
4. It has too much firepower for its suggested usage (think russian tanks with like 20 guns). You'd need to cart along ammo, reducing speed and stuff we can move. Considering we spend most of our time either running or stealing, I'd remove some of the weapons and replace them with storage canisters, for carting samples on research missions and stolen goodies on assault missions.
5. Is the production cost worth it? Why not get a bunch of Sods to haul our crap instead or bring a pneumatic exo?
6. How easily replaceable are blown off legs?
Otherwise, nice. As long as the bastards don't act like anything remotely involving MLP.
2. Wing things on the sides can lift it. And I'm pretty sure horses can get up on their own.
3. Generators. Almost infinite power. See gauss rifle.
4. Lasers + 3. Doesn't need ammo.
6. Assuming robobody-like compatibility, you just remove the damaged leg and replace it with a new one. Torso damage would be harder to repair.
5. That is very reasonable. Why not have a couple of soldier sods and a medic sod? Better to spread things around then have one juicy target.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 06:11:32 am
A few problems with the design:((Most of these were already discussed.
1. Shoot it in the head with a BFG and it becomes a mindless potato.
2. If it's knocked over, how is it going to get up?
3. Power. What's it powered by? Magfields can only get you so far.
4. It has too much firepower for its suggested usage (think russian tanks with like 20 guns). You'd need to cart along ammo, reducing speed and stuff we can move. Considering we spend most of our time either running or stealing, I'd remove some of the weapons and replace them with storage canisters, for carting samples on research missions and stolen goodies on assault missions.
5. Is the production cost worth it? Why not get a bunch of Sods to haul our crap instead?
1. Its head is as empty as a robobody's - the brain is in the chest. Shoot the head and it loses one of its support CPUs, it main visual sensors, and some auxiliary stuff like the medifoam dispenser's nozzle.
2. As a horse would, presumably - the legs aren't mounted on rigid axles, it uses a cybernetic body for a reason. Tuck one side's legs under, extend other side and twist torso to shift weight, lift up and go. Even the Big Dog can get up if knocked over.
3. Huge-ass (literally) generator in the rear torso powering the frame itself and all the energy weapons.
4. All energy weapons except for grenades, no ammo needed. Targeting assist CPUs mean it can engage as many targets as it has weapons simultaneously without much problem. Grenade compartment can be (and will be, on the R2) converted to storage compartment, and there is ample space for any kind of backpacks and other containers on the back.
5. It costs, in production and with equipment, about as much as 2.5 cyber-Sods. It has the carry weight capacity of two standard humanoids (using all of its legs for lift), and can easily outrun all of them. Given same tier of weaponry, it will also match them for firepower, and it's a far smaller target than two regular Sods. In a way, it's a pair of Sods condensed to essentials as one unit.
As for the "too many weapons" thing - it can't be given just "one" weapon. For sheer symmetry it must have at least the two laser rifles. The kinetic amp is both for use in melee and as an obstacle-breaching kinetic ram. The electrolaser is Anton's signature weapon, and it is not mounted in the head because it's overloaded with features as-is, so it goes into the tail - making it double as a melee-range electric whip. The grenade launchers are the only things I agree on being superfluous, but I wanted it to have some indirect-fire area-control capability, especially for use in case its power supply is damaged.))
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 17, 2014, 06:22:35 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 06:33:41 am
Plus, don't forget, the RT is supposed to be a support unit. One little horse-reptile-thing is less of a target than two Sods, and is more likely to survive being shot at.))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 17, 2014, 06:41:44 am
If your really worried about antons signature weapon being included just tie a tesla coil into the spinal mount.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 17, 2014, 06:46:40 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 06:52:39 am
Honestly the only weapon you actually need is a single backlaser, this thing is a support platform not an assault droid.((The R2-"Artoo" is that. Just the headlaser and the tail-taser, the rest is handed arms and support paraphernalia. It can't power any weapons but those little lasers, so it's a true support unit with no extra fire support capacity. But it can hold other weapons. So it becomes a somewhat pricey replacement for a sod that can run faster and carry more, but is otherwise limited in the same basic ways.))
If your really worried about antons signature weapon being included just tie a tesla coil into the spinal mount.
Is there a bigger fish than fission instigator?((Avatar of War, technically. The Instigator gives you one shot. The Avatar can survive that shot, and pummel you into constituent atoms afterwards.))
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 17, 2014, 07:01:00 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 07:44:32 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 17, 2014, 08:06:29 am
Holy shit... just how powerful a tesla coil did i stick on the thundertron?
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 17, 2014, 08:20:54 am
It was 25+ tokens, RU are worth like 2-3 tokens apiece...
Holy shit... just how powerful a tesla coil did i stick on the thundertron?
Red Alert 2 level power?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 17, 2014, 09:16:07 am
Eiffel Tower mission anyone? (http://youtu.be/L1vbcoIxCoA)It was 25+ tokens, RU are worth like 2-3 tokens apiece...
Holy shit... just how powerful a tesla coil did i stick on the thundertron?
Red Alert 2 level power?
Post by: Tavik Toth on February 17, 2014, 10:00:46 am
Some should try designing as many of the units from Red Alert and Red Alert 2 while using ER tech.Eiffel Tower mission anyone? (http://youtu.be/L1vbcoIxCoA)It was 25+ tokens, RU are worth like 2-3 tokens apiece...
Holy shit... just how powerful a tesla coil did i stick on the thundertron?
Red Alert 2 level power?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 17, 2014, 10:04:44 am
A few problems with the design:1. ...No, it won't. The head has one of the auxiliary CPUs that helps with firing. The remaining weapons on the head would be made less accurate, but that's about it.
1. Shoot it in the head with a BFG and it becomes a mindless potato.
2. If it's knocked over, how is it going to get up?
3. Power. What's it powered by? Magfields can only get you so far before your batteries are drained.
4. It has too much firepower for its suggested usage (think russian tanks with like 20 guns). You'd need to cart along extra ammo, reducing speed and stuff we can move. Considering we spend most of our time either running or stealing, I'd remove some of the weapons and replace them with storage canisters, for carting samples on research missions and stolen goodies on assault missions.
5. Is the production cost worth it? Why not get a bunch of Sods to haul our crap instead or bring a pneumatic exo?
6. How easily replaceable are blown off legs?
Otherwise, nice. As long as the bastards don't act like anything remotely involving MLP.
2. Same way a horse does.
3. Read the description again.
4. Damn near all of its weapons are energy weapons.
5. Because horses are more efficient at carrying stuff. And sods don't have medifoam, multi-targeting, or other such perks.
6. About as easy as they would be for robodies.
Because it's silly. And not suited for a support unit--legs too short, body too bulky.although i still say he shoulda made a tricerabot.WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THIS EARLIER
Maybe a tank-like Ar-Prime?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 10:28:34 am
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 17, 2014, 10:36:22 am
Post by: syvarris on February 17, 2014, 11:16:00 am
Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve SaintI will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.
Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simus Ferratum-Inanis, Anton Chernozorov
Ah. Okay then, would you mind if I join you and Anton? I'm curious about his prototype, and maybe I'll learn something.
((Do either of you mind if we say this was sent before Anton's presentation? I'd like to have Saint see it in person.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 11:48:26 am
((I don't terribly mind, just don't expect me to rewrite the presentation. :P))Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve SaintI will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simus Ferratum-Inanis, Anton ChernozorovAh. Okay then, would you mind if I join you and Anton? I'm curious about his prototype, and maybe I'll learn something.
((Do either of you mind if we say this was sent before Anton's presentation? I'd like to have Saint see it in person.))
Post by: piecewise on February 17, 2014, 02:51:35 pm
Sigh, and create the following thing.Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 Demonstration (click to show/hide)
Then record a video of myself going through the whole thing, demonstrating and examining everything I set up in detail. Send an invitation to Simus to join the scenario with me, along with this text and the recording I just made.Quote from: Text from Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-InanisI have set up a full VR demonstration of my SS/BEARD-9 prototype. I would like to walk you through it so I can detail its capabilities, so I have sent you an invitation.
However, in case you are too busy at the moment, I have also sent you a recording of myself walking through the demonstration and examining all the important things. I still recommend you join the demonstration yourself, simply so you can ask questions and test things that I have not thought of.
((Also: this quote, in case Pyro missed it.))Spoiler: SS/BEARD-9 (click to show/hide)
Send the schematics to Simus, along with the following message.Quote from: From Steve Saint to Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis
I have completed your assigned project. My device has proven to be four tokens cheaper than the piezoelectric shard generator, although combat simulations have shown it to be somewhat less effective as well.
Notably, it leaves the battlesuit mostly recoverable, and has the capacity to be used as a trap. Frankly, the latter function is probably more useful than firing it- its primary reason for being conventionally launched is to fulfill your assignment's requirement.
Finally, if PW is willing, relax and pull up more data on quiet worlds. Are there any that have been really extensively explored? Any interesting stories from exploration expeditions into these worlds?
"I don't think Piecewise needs to read this"
And so he did not. You send your junk around. Hmm. Carlos Danger joke in there somewhere.
As per exploring quiet worlds; it happens but usually just the surface is explored, at least by official UWM forces. They get bogged down in documenting the surface while independent treasure hunters explore the depths and often get killed down there. You could probably search up some stories from those explorers but they may be of a dubious nature.
Around 3500 c. Try some Dicyanoacetylene or oxygen lance.Right after I look up what those are.
Alright, here we go...
1. Attempt to construct a thermal lance which can be used as a projectile. In the front is hot, directed with some kind of small hole in the middle is a rube full of iron rods, and in the back is a canister of pressurized oxygen. The whole thing is encased in a protective sheath of plastic or something, as aerodynamic as it can be with a hole in the front for the burning iron to come out. Call it the Thermal Pike.
2. Attempt to make thermite with tungsten replacing the iron; if that fails, try niobium, osmium, rhenium, uranium, and zirconium; and if that fails try boron, carbon, lanthanum, and neodymium. I'm a bit fuzzy on the mechanics of oxidation, but Wikipedia says thermite can reach temperatures close to the boiling point of iron or whatever metal is oxidized in its place, and the aforementioned elements have boiling points near or well above 3,500 C.
Dicyanoacetylene's Wikipedia article is surprisingly uninspiring.
3. Fill some kind of light blue plastic sphere with dicyanoacetylene and include a lighting mechanism which can be remotely triggered. Call it the Cyan Bomb, or the DEAD (short for Dicyanoacetylene Explosively Armed Device).
Fire a Thermal Pike at a battlesuit with an appropriate gauss thingy.
Detonate any successful quasi-thermite near a battlesuit. Did I mention that I'm a bit fuzzy on how people use thermite?
Throw a DEAD or two at a battlesuit.
Determine effectiveness and cost of such weapons.
Well, lets see. Thermal lance only really works if you hold it up and let it cut for a bit. It's basically just gonna bounce off if you just shoot it at the thing.
For thermite to work you have to set it on top of what you want to melt and then let it melt down through.
That Dead would probably be extremely effective against non-armored targets but since it's unfocused it probably won't get through the battlesuit's armor.
((I don't know whether this goes in here or the on-ship thread, but I'll put it here because it will likely evolve into tinker.))Thats kinda a wide series of tests. Also, crossbows probably aren't gonna be effective unless they're quite large and firing nuclear tipped arrows.
Test the effectiveness of different weapon types against different types of armor and other defensive measures. Include the crossbow from far back with the different bolt tips.
At least against most armor.
((It is more of a sniper weapon that could sustain fire and the gauss array has been maximised by running just a hair less current through it than would melt the wiring, making the coils bigger and using larger rounds so it is much more powerful and the impact is smaller))Hmm. Wait, larger rounds? Or is that a typo? If I remember right your original plan was for a higher powered gauss rifle with smaller rounds, which would get you the longer range you want. But larger rounds would negate the higher power and you'd just end up with a rifle that is about as powerful as the gauss but with larger bullets.
Analyse stinky fungus.WRONG THREAD
I would say each model wouldn't be more expensive than their nuclear counterpart, for the same yield. Maybe 1 token more for the clean-bomb effect.one token more for an equivalent yield bomb sounds fine. Though, we will need to use some resources to set up the manufacturing process and systems since it's a new system.
Resource-wise, these things could potentially be cheaper than nukes, I think. Compare the rarity of near and trans-uranic elements, especially the isotopes that are actually any good for use in nuclear weapons, to deuterium, or aluminium. About the only complicated part is the firing mechanisms. And higher yields won't really be that much more expensive since the yield goes up if you increase the mass of the aluminium liner.Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve SaintI will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.
((IC wall of text warning))You vomit much green text at all involved.Anton, having finished his conversation with Miyamoto, returns to Simus.Quote from: Simus>Anton, Steve SaintI will be judging when everyone's designs are done.
In the meantime, Anton, come and show me this idea you want to prototype.
"Quite right. I have also discussed the ship loadouts with General Miyamoto, and he finds the idea of a "kill button" ship as having merit. If your cheaper missiles will be cheap enough, we should just squeak into our defense budget without having to modify anything else.
Now then, this idea of mine... well. As bad a sign as it may be to preface a presentation with this, but please - don't laugh. The design may seem silly at first glance, but do believe that I put some thought behind it."
With that, Anton loads the prototype design (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4152380/019_e.png) into the Tinker session between him and Simus.
"So, this here is the Artee, as I call it. RT model non-humanoid combat support unit - a "Robotic Teammate", so to speak. On the overall, it's exactly what it looks like - an equinoid, meaning horse-like, armored robotic frame. I've thought up the general concept around the same time we were bumbling around a desolate planetoid, with rapidly dwindling means of transportation and healthcare. As with all deviations from the accepted standard - that being the humanoid frame - it has its positive and negative comparative traits."
Anton loads another snapshot, of the Artee partially disassembled to show its inner structure (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4152380/022_j.png).
"I'll start with the latter, just to get them out of the way. The most obvious issue here is the lack of what you normally call grasping appendages, or hands. The machine is capable of carrying things with a special three-prong hydraulic grasp located in its head - also capable of acting as literal "jaws of life", if you're familiar with the term - but it is uncapable of any kind of manual dexterity beyond pushing the occasional button. It is likewise unable to carry standard weaponry, instead relying on specially built or modified hardware.
Another issue is with the quadruped design, which may prove a hindrance in certain situations, for instance when operating in environments specifically meant for bipedal use - like staircases. A hindrance, however, but not a barrier - the machine is agile enough to navigate acceptably in most situations. About the only thing that will stump it is rope ladders.
A more important side effect, for combat environments, may be that it can't go prone like a humanoid can. While it can lie flat on the ground, the design of the chest section means that it'll still provide a sizeable target in that position - though that is offset by very little of its offensive ability being affected by doing so.
There's also the problem of underside armor - with the various joints and a not entirely rigid body construction it is by necessity quite weak. If a minefield were to be encountered, an Artee would suffer greater - proportionally to area exposed - damage from an explosion from below than a humanoid would. Side armor is still adequate as long as the armor panels on the flank are closed.
And, of course there's the issue of literally having to build all of the support infrastructure for these machines specifically - from production lines to repair kits, literally everything these units can use would need to be specially made for them."
Anton rubs his hands together and gestures over the design.
"That's... more or less all for negatives. That I can see at a glance, at least. Some things are neutral to design, and would likely work in a humanoid frame as well. For instance, the Artee has two regular CPUs in addition to its organic brain, which act as fire control centers to aid multi-targeting. Or, if the brain is destroyed, the CPUs can be made to take over the body and provide what I call "zombie functions" - the frame can stand, execute simple motions, and of course can aim and fire all of its weapons, though it will probably need someone to designate targets for it. Provided the body itself is sufficiently intact, of course. The chest is armored to protect the brain, and the head, which holds one of the CPUs, is elongated and tapers to a point, aiding in projectile deflection. Not going to do much against lasers, but I'll take what I can get.
Then there's the weaponry. The primary armament consists of two laser rifles, held by articulate arms that hide under the wing-like armor panels on the sides of the body. This makes the weapons less likely to be damaged when not in use, and makes the unit less intimidating to civilians - when we have our public image to think of, visual appeal in design does have a place. Additional weapons and gear include a kinetic-amp battering ram on a hydraulic mount in the top of the skull, for maximum impact force; a micro-laser like that of a standard Hand Laser mounted in the head as an auxiliary deterrent and stand-in for a cutting torch; a container of medifoam under the neck armor panels, with the nozzle ending in the tip of the unit's nose for precise application; another micro-laser, augmented with an electric spark gap, on the tip of the prehensile tail - this acts as a six-degrees-of-freedom functional electrolaser turret in atmosphere, as well as a last-resort melee weapon; and finally, two gyrojet grenade launchers under the armored panels on the thighs - four shots of any 40mm custom grenades you can think to outfit them with in each.
I'm sure that, specifics disregarded, most of this weaponry and gear could reasonably be fitted to, or carried by a humanoid frame as well, though with more difficulty and less flexibility in some cases. All of this gear is powered by an internal generator and some capacitor banks, which take up most of the internal space in the torso of the unit, with just enough space left in the back for the second auxiliary CPU."
Anton pauses for a moment to take a breath, looking at Simus for signs of possible interest or obvious disdain. Not immediately noticing either, he continues.
"Now, for the positives.
Firstly, another fairly obvious trait is the reduced forward profile. This thing could be galloping towards you, all guns firing, and would still give you the same size of target as a crouching human. Less, if you count that its legs are thinner.
Second is tied with the first, and that is armoring and survivability. A regular humanoid is pretty hard to armor - a lot of vertical space to cover, and the arrangement of joints means that infantry armor has several vulnerable areas immediately visible to the enemy. Quite like a tank, an Artee is easy to equip with definitive "fore", "side", and "hind" armor, and - quite unlike a humanoid - the vulnerable areas is does have are almost always protected from any direction except "down". The generator assembly that drives the weapons and gives it power is located directly behind the same forward plate that protects the brain, as well as the brain itself. This ties into "zombie functions" as well - direct fire from the front can destroy the braincase, but leave the power systems intact, allowing the fire control CPU in the rear to take command of what's left of the body. Whereas with a humanoid frame set up in the same way, a shot to the "gut" would disable the machine as well as a shot to the brain. The only way to inflict that sort of damage on an Artee is to flank it - a task made difficult by its array of peripheral weaponry like the tail turret, and the "wing-shields" giving it extra flank armor.
It is also a more stable firing platform while moving. A humanoid upper body moves quite a lot while running to maintain balance, and targeting can be problematic even with fire control and stabilizers - while a horse-like quadruped at full gallop still maintains its general orientation, especially around the withers area where Artee's primary weapon arms are mounted. Given its selection of weapons, that particular feature can be quite useful.
And, of course, there are the other things stemming from the horse-like design - greater carrying capacity and push/pull power, greater running speed, and even extensibility - it's easier to add something new to this frame, much like a vehicle. I've been planning a few already, in fact. "R2", the focused support frame, would trade the powerful generator and laser rifles for actual hand-like manipulators on its arms, and an extended set of tools and medical supplies, giving it more flexibility at the expense of long-term firepower. The combat modification, "R3", apart from a heavier set of armor, would feature a full-scale heavy weapon mount on its back, accepting any large personal weapon. The quadruped design allows to treat the body more like a small vehicle, which, coupled with the human-comparable agility and versatility of the frame, makes for some interesting possibilities.
Construction-wise, I have already done some calculations. The token cost for prototyping one is, quite predictably, through the roof. The array of weapons, the generator, the medifoam, the CPUs, it all adds up to a hefty sum. The cost to actually manufacture one, though, would barely be higher than that of a pair of simple robot-body Sod troops, and that's with all of its equipment already installed.
But, of course, if the single Artee was to merely fight its weight in Sods, I suppose it would lose, multi-targeting and fire control or no - humanoids might carry heavier weapons. The thing is that when I thought this idea up, I didn't want a combat sidekick, although you certainly won't beat a properly trained RT in a skeet-shooting range. It's supposed to be an all-purpose, high endurance support unit, capable of providing the average team of squishy humans with some carrying capacity, ad-hoc means of transportation, medical and engineering support, as well as some decent fire support on the side. All standardized and wrapped in a nice-looking, fast-running package that can cross any walkable terrain, needs no care for itself bar the occasional combat injury, and can actually act on its own if the need arises.
And I kinda need your go-ahead to try and put one together before the invasion. Both to avoid the kind of fuss Auron made earlier, and because I won't be able to purchase the parts I need for another year or three."
Perform prewritten prototype presentation. Politely procure proper production permissions.
TIME SKIP INCOMING
TIME SKIP INCOMING
ALL FORCES TO SHIP THREAD
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 17, 2014, 04:00:50 pm
Frowny face. I guess I'll finish my Miya project later.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 17, 2014, 04:04:32 pm
Aw. I was going to try to make some sort of armor-piercing round containing something.
Frowny face. I guess I'll finish my Miya project later.
Am I... missing something? Miya project? Sorry, can't brain anything right now.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 17, 2014, 07:26:28 pm
While I wouldn't laugh, several others back where I'm from would laugh you out of their private lab complexes.
Still, I don't particularly like it as it stands, it's too... focused on aesthetics, especially the equestrian design in general, though I will admit that it's not the worst way to design a legged creature-esque stable firing platform. Not terribly much armor, either, and if a leg is shot out you'll need an exoskeleton at least, and probably more, to bring it back, or you have to bring a fresh leg to it. And I think you're trying to put far too much into one package.
I'll tell you what: Make it in under me, and you'll have a few fabricator cycles of your own. You can use some to build a prototype. Otherwise, you'll need to come back to me with a modified design. Not heavily, mind, the base idea is sound, and I especially like your use of secondary computers to help with multi-targeting and the 'zombie mode', but somewhat modified nonetheless. Perhaps the more specialized versions are better about the whole 'too much in one package' issue, but the other points still stand.
Quote from: Simus>All Participants
I hate to end it now, but I have the strangest feeling that Steve might start getting annoyed if we tie things up much longer before we start rebuilding HQ (some final plans are dependent on how many people are staying with me). Please submit you designs. Don't worry if you're not done, just submit what you have and an explanation of where you were going with it.
Post by: syvarris on February 17, 2014, 07:48:22 pm
Saint silently listens to Anton's presentation, at first with a bemused expression. About halfway through he seems to become much more interested in the prototype.
After Simus finishes her review, Saint speaks to Anton.
"It's certainly an interesting design. Have you used the VR machines to test it's effectiveness on the battlefield?
Also, if you have any need for assistance with... refining the design, or writing the software for it, I would be happy to assist; I was in a robotics hobbyist group before being recruited by ARM, and this is exactly the sort of project we worked on, although projects this large were rare."
((Just gonna link the post with my design, cause big. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg5012503#msg5012503)))
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 17, 2014, 09:00:27 pm
Oh no! Already?Quote from: Simus>All ParticipantsI hate to end it now, but I have the strangest feeling that Steve might start getting annoyed if we tie things up much longer before we start rebuilding HQ (some final plans are dependent on how many people are staying with me). Please submit you designs. Don't worry if you're not done, just submit what you have and an explanation of where you were going with it.
Time's up.
Shoulda listened to me.
You said "Just throw me at it!"
Wouldn't that work?
Shut up, guys, I'm trying to put something together.
Spoiler: Stuff Sent to Simus (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2014, 11:06:00 pm
"Pfheh. Too much in one package. What, it would be more practical stripped down? I mean sure, let's see it." He proceeds to demonstrate his words, editing the prototype as he speaks. "Take away the lasers, the amp, the medifoam, the grenades - what's left? An empty shell on four legs, with a huge-ass generator and no way to use it." He brings his hands down on the standing unit's back, careful not to tip the unprogrammed body over. "The R2 variant loses that generator to have extra internal space, because otherwise it has nowhere to put the energy. It also can't use its fire control CPUs much, because it can't dual-wield weapons without special mounting rails. What I've just outlined here is the "deluxe" loadout for the RT - the maximum I designed it to be equipped with. You can always take things away from it, but if you agree that the basic design is sound, why remove the potential to have the extra things? It's not like any of them are useless. If there are things you would have me change that are specific to the stripped-down RT and not the equipment loadout, I'll do my best to comply to them.
And do forgive me for liking aesthetics in design. I will ensure that all my contributions following this one will be as blocky and unpleasing to the eye as possible. Should help endear us to the public, end sarcasm mode. I won't deny that I've designed it this way specifically because it's pleasing to the eye, but isn't it a valid point still?
Also, I can't speak with certainty until I have a fully functional model, but I think it can pretty effectively limp back home on its own with a shot leg. I mean, a human with one working leg can hobble, and you have three here, how is that even worse. Even if it loses both front legs, the movement range on the back ones should be enough to use the tail as a prop-up and... well, it won't do to say "pop a wheelie". "Leggie"? I mean it would be possible to carry the whole body on the two back legs, upright, using the tail as support - or using a teammate as support, if anybody is feeling like helping. Don't forget, it's not going to be a simple machine - with an organic brain it should be capable of adapting to pretty much anything, provided we train it properly."
Anton notices Saint.
"Thanks. No, I didn't test it, I mean, look -" he gives the VR Artee a gentle shove, causing the body to rock back and forth a little until it settles vertically again. "No programming at all. I only recently got back to VR and there's been lots of work here. I just didn't have the time for anything but the design. Programming help would be appreciated, by the way. Those zombie functions won't code themselves. Assuming I get the clearance to work on it, we could spend the off hours working the stuff out.
I'm Anton, by the way. Anton Chernozorov. I'm assuming you're Steve Saint? Nobody else would know of my little presentation. And... that name might have interesting consequences around here, I'm sure you've already been told. Nice to meet you."
Post by: syvarris on February 17, 2014, 11:40:52 pm
Post by: Corsair on February 18, 2014, 02:20:13 am
The design is purposed to act as a long range option that would theoretically impart a very large amount of force into a small area meaning that it can be used to take out a target with minimal damage to surrounding area thus a battle suit could be taken down by killing the pilot then recaptured given minimal repairs and redeployed (although either side could do this unfortunately)
Post by: PyroDesu on February 19, 2014, 05:51:39 pm
Anton, your solution is good: multipurpose, mostly reliable, and with what is almost becoming a signature with you, kinetic amp boosting. Along with prior experience with you, you pass by a wide margin. If you want to stay, you have my approval. And I meant no offense with my remarks about your project, mind.
Saint, your solution is also good: Again, multipurpose, though in a different manner to Anton's project. A creative use of auto-manipulators, using just enough power to kill the pilot without causing major damage otherwise. Not as reliable, and can be defended against if the pilot is sufficiently skilled, but still very good, if a bit more expensive up-front. I also note your research into battlesuits before you began work. I'm not sure exactly what you got out of watching Altered tear one apart, but it shows a more scientific or observational behavior. Useful both in a lab and in a tactical situation when applied properly, I think. You may stay if you wish, but I might recommend you go with the Sword - you can still engineer, but you'll also be of help tactically.
Grate, you never really focused on one particular solution. This is at once a good and a bad thing, good in that giving multiple solutions, or, since we ran out of time, potential solutions, implies flexibility. The bad part being that the overall process is slower. I think the good outweighs the bad, though. Now, you gave 4 different attempts: 2 based on transmutation, turning the affected area of the battlesuit to hydrogen. An interesting, if high-powered, solution. One in a rocket or mortar shell format, similar to Saint's without the glue and an impact trigger, and an auto-manipulator 'gun'. I'm not entirely sure about your incendiary solution - a hotter burning thermite - actually a nano-thermite, according to your description, aluminium-tungsten(VI) oxide hydrate type, it seems. The effectiveness against battlesuits is potentially questionable, but you didn't have time to complete your design, so it could work. And an extremely high-temperature explosive device, to which I respond similarly to the 'thermite prime'. You may stay, even without your extenuating circumstances - staying here will keep you off the front lines. Though a word of warning - if you stay, you might not see Feyri or Jim in person again for quite some time, though you will be able to keep in touch.
Joseph, yours is a simple, yet effective design. A hypervelocity gauss rifle that can easily crack layers of battlesuit plate. Probably not a one-hit kill, mind you, and you would severely damage the battlesuit's armor as you cracked though the successive plates to reach the pilot - they're designed to crack on impact, to minimize damage to the next layer in. However, with a long-rod penetrator instead of a simple small bullet, you could crack multiple plates with one shot. Doesn't help much with the wrecked armor, but does reduce the number of hits required. However, I might note a potential personality conflict from your 'interview', such as it was. You seemed rather quick to defend your work preemptively, and it indicates to me you might not take criticism very well, which could turn into an issue. I'd rather not have you stay, if this could become a problem. You can still work remotely, and procuring the 'equipment beyond your means' shouldn't be a problem if you turn out good work, which I will say, your project has potential to be.
Charles, your opinion, since you were my second for observation? You're already confirmed, mind - a more administrative and human resources-inclined person will be of great help.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 19, 2014, 06:17:39 pm
Quote
I suppose my namite could be improved in some ways, and I might try and make a MK.2 further down the line sometime. However, keep in mind that namite isn't terribly expensive to make and pretty damn effective against unarmored opponents. I'd rather you didn't try and change it, though, as it's still technically 'my' tinker project and as it's so far my only project, I'm kinda attached to it.A mixture of napalm and thermite. It is as effective as you think.I'm thinking of ways to make it better. No offense.
Idea: next to using disposable canisters with namite, make a canister that doesn't have namite but comes with a screw cap or something so one can fill it up with whatever is available, like free HMRC high-ethanol booze.
For the namite itself: increase pressure of the stream produced by the thrower, and add a better binding agent so that you will have a more coherent stream that can shoot further without it being dispelled to fast. Added pressure is for extra range and making up for possible increase in viscosity of the namite mix.
EDIT: maybe you can make a battlesuit/exoskeleton/vehicle version of this thing with enough pressure to be used a medium range. Like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_riverboat_using_napalm_in_Vietnam.jpg
Might want to increase octane rating of your fuel mix to withstand higher pressure (not sure if entirely needed, best checked in tinker).
You could also add white phosphorous to the mix, though then you might as well switch out the thermite for the phosphorous completely. Might wanna test different fuel mixes to find one with good cost/performance balance.
And maybe change the oxidizer to something more potent (though this would also be more dangerous, and require sturdier build of the thrower to reduce risk of a hit to the thrower igniting the fuel tank or something). What does the mix use as an oxidizer at the moment?
Hmm, I wonder if you used something to increase the adhesive properties of the fuel mix so that it sticks to surfaces better. Napalm already sticks to human skin though, but if you can really make it stick to various surfaces you could use it against armored targets that are resistant to the heat itself, by blocking their view (it's kinda hard to use a battlesuit's camera if said camera is covered with an intensely burning goop that also sticks and can't just be wiped of easily).
Another bonus to increasing stickiness is that if you coat a target with it, the fuel will have a chance to slowly burn its way through whatever armor there is.
EDIT: Also, according to wikipedia something resembling namite already exists. To quote:QuoteNapalm B is chemically distinct from its predecessor Napalm. It is usually a mixture of polystyrene and benzene, used as a thickening agent to make jellied gasoline. One of the advantages of this new mixture lies in its increased safety while being handled and stored. Many accidents had been attributed to personnel smoking around stockpiles.[3]
Napalm B has a commonly quoted composition of 21% benzene, 33% gasoline (itself containing between 1% and 4% (estimated) benzene to raise its octane number), and 46% polystyrene. This mixture is more difficult to ignite than napalm.[4] A reliable pyrotechnic initiator, often based on thermite (for ordinary napalm) or white phosphorus (for newer compositions), has been used.[2][4] The original napalm usually burned for 15 to 30 seconds while Napalm B can burn for up to 10 minutes.[4]
I love pyrotechnics.
@ GWG: the thing with using an adhesive to coat your target would work for your idea as well. It doesn't matter if your fuel mix can't burn through a battlesuit in one go if your fuel sticks to your target it can take its sweet time burnin' through. And a if the pilot is busy removing the burning stuff from his suit, you have an opening to do something else without that battlesuit getting in the way (like retreating or getting another shot of).
Post by: Pancaek on February 19, 2014, 06:23:23 pm
Great big sciency explanation.Yeah I just asked PW for a weapon that's basically napalm and thermite slapped together and pumped through a shooty tube. That's about as complicated as this thing got. You people obviously know a lot about the fine mechanics of these things and I am way out of my depth here.
I do believe it can be used at medium range already though, unless I remember the distance between us and MurderbotXL wrong.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 19, 2014, 07:16:02 pm
Post by: Empiricist on February 20, 2014, 02:49:48 am
Anton, judging by what the manual my rifle came with stated, prototypes may be made with our captain-equivalent's approval. I checked the armory's catalogue, your weapon wasn't on it. So either you are evidently qualified for this, having already designed something practical enough to be cleared for prototype, or, you salvaged somewhere, displaying the resourcefulness to operate it well enough to utilize it as your primary weapon. If it's the former, then I'd think you would be an exceptional designer either in a directed role, or as someone to develop versatile solutions and fit them to a problem. If it's the latter, then I suspect you'd be suitable for reverse engineering enemy equipment and using their components, if that role is actually of enough importance to warrant a position here of course.
To offer an alternate interpretation to Joseph's behavior, I propose that he may instead possess a lack of confidence or more intransigent as opposed to reacting poorly to criticism, which would explain why he chose a more conventional approach which he proceeded to repeatedly modify rather than scrap it until it became a viable option. I would recommend you Joseph, should someone with more linear but still somewhat flexible thinking is required. Someone to drive a solution into completion in the face of problems while maintaining the key features. Though that depends on whether such a person is required.
Saint, I would consider you as the opposite, someone who goes off on tangents almost immediately but still preserves the required conditions, seeing as you have apparently tested your solution in a variety of situations not limited merely to what it was meant to solve, I would say that you are less suitable for linear development and better off being prescribed an array of problems and given the task to solve as many as possible with a single, practical design seeing as you till do did take quite a bit of care, accounting for the other situations it may end up in. Once again, this depends on whether or not that role is required.
Finally, as for Grate, *sigh* I am quite conflicted about him. Call me obstinate, but the sight of a child designing lethal weapons is quite worrisome to me; I am not sure whether or not I should go into as much detail seeing as, one one hand, he is but a child here under what I presume are far lesser crimes than others, exposing him to violence is something I feel I have a duty to prevent... that being said, he is also an ally and I have long lost any right to provide care for others... thus, I shall provide my feedback as follows lest he oppose the indignity of my concerns about his age: you are not someone I would recommend for the development of clearly defined solutions, but rather someone to explore the options and narrow them down into something more specific to develop, you would likely be the most useful designing solutions for problems with no clear resolution option or otherwise presenting a variety of possible improvements to something under development."
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 20, 2014, 03:25:58 am
"Anton, judging by what the manual my rifle came with stated, prototypes may be made with our captain-equivalent's approval. I checked the armory's catalogue, your weapon wasn't on it. So either you are evidently qualified for this, having already designed something practical enough to be cleared for prototype, or, you salvaged somewhere, displaying the resourcefulness to operate it well enough to utilize it as your primary weapon. If it's the former, then I'd think you would be an exceptional designer either in a directed role, or as someone to develop versatile solutions and fit them to a problem. If it's the latter, then I suspect you'd be suitable for reverse engineering enemy equipment and using their components, if that role is actually of enough importance to warrant a position here of course.""I merely used that unmentioned clause in prototyping rules, Charles. I simply paid for all parts myself, and assembled them myself. I'd do that with all of my designs, however as I move to larger and more powerful items I feel like I will need to start making more and more use of those prototyping grants. My wages won't cover more than a prototype per decade otherwise, heh.
That said, you are mostly correct. I'd even say, if I am allowed a bit of reflective analysis, that my "signature", as XO Simus refers to it, is using and recombining existing technology in new ways. Though I have to say I can't wait to start developing some actually new tech.
And that reminds me. XO, I think my Gungnir prototype has passed field testing. It can be freely and easily assembled out of a Laser Rifle, a Tesla Saber, and a small conversion kit with a cost of three token. If I write up a manual for conversion, and schematics for the kit, do you think you could add it to our regular armory list? The Red Hand of mine is a little more complex, using a manually modified generator that I had to do quite a bit of tinkering on, so I think I'll double-check it for safety hazards before I submit it."
Post by: Empiricist on February 20, 2014, 03:42:37 am
"I merely used that unmentioned clause in prototyping rules, Charles. I simply paid for all parts myself, and assembled them myself. I'd do that with all of my designs, however as I move to larger and more powerful items I feel like I will need to start making more and more use of those prototyping grants. My wages won't cover more than a prototype per decade otherwise, heh.""I was unaware of that clause, though that is to be expected, seeing as I was but a mere psychiatrist and no longer one at that, so do excuse my ignorance of these rules. Either way, if it works, it works and seeing as I have yet to see you in the infirmary I would wager that it does fulfill what it is meant to do."
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 20, 2014, 03:57:23 am
"Hah. Infirmary. I got limbs replaced thrice already, though only once in the Infirmary, and none of those were the result of enemy fire. Let's just say that whatever my engineering qualifications are, I have yet to master the art of not having my own limbs destroyed by my own actions. But since I'm staying here, I guess I'll need a full robot body anyway. At least once this one gets old enough. Also, I feel the need to point out that I haven't once managed to hit a real enemy with any of my weapons."I merely used that unmentioned clause in prototyping rules, Charles. I simply paid for all parts myself, and assembled them myself. I'd do that with all of my designs, however as I move to larger and more powerful items I feel like I will need to start making more and more use of those prototyping grants. My wages won't cover more than a prototype per decade otherwise, heh.""I was unaware of that clause, though that is to be expected, seeing as I was but a mere psychiatrist and no longer one at that, so do excuse my ignorance of these rules. Either way, if it works, it works and seeing as I have yet to see you in the infirmary I would wager that it does fulfill what it is meant to do."
And it's not a separate clause so much as simply buying what you need. Nobody's going to stop you from building something you like if you pay for it all - it's the free parts that you need the prototyping grant for."
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 20, 2014, 10:54:15 am
Great big sciency explanation.Yeah I just asked PW for a weapon that's basically napalm and thermite slapped together and pumped through a shooty tube. That's about as complicated as this thing got. You people obviously know a lot about the fine mechanics of these things and I am way out of my depth here.
I do believe it can be used at medium range already though, unless I remember the distance between us and MurderbotXL wrong.
I dunno, I though it was short-medium range, I don't remember exactly. Either way, if you ever need a hand to mess with the composition of your namite mix, just give a yell.
That sounds pretty much identical to my neotherm thrower, except it has a backpack for fuel storage.Well yeah, the basic idea is pretty basic after all. But there's a lot of possibilities for different fuel mixes one could try out. Different oxidizers, different fuels (many options, like kerosene or propane or something else), different gelling agents, a different pyrotechnic initiator (maybe one that delays the main combustion process) like different thermites or phosphorous, binding agents or something to increase adhesive properties, more or less viscosity (maybe there's a way to let the fuel be very fluid first, to get in seeps and cracks easily, then it rapidly thickens so it can't just flow out again), other additives...
Hmmm burning things.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 04:03:15 pm
Also im pretty sure neotherm can vaporise a battlesuit, any chance youd be willing to make me a single barrel or scuba tanks worth to play with? If yes make sure to the components seperately.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 20, 2014, 05:30:37 pm
I just wanna play with some neotherm, i have my bat chip up and running so i can still see whilst blasting away with my flamethrower but the fuel just too expensive.
Also im pretty sure neotherm can vaporise a battlesuit, any chance youd be willing to make me a single barrel or scuba tanks worth to play with? If yes make sure to the components seperately.
Not for this mission (will need mindpool for battle). And filling a cannister with namite already completely exhausts Miya, so if you want a whole damn barrel of it you'll need to give something in return. Something small and easy like a knife I'd usually do for free, but if I do this I wouldn't be using my manip for quite some time, meaning noboy else could get something.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 07:02:40 pm
Id be willing to give you a token for your efforts and im not trying to necro the argument but you did jip me two tokens by deciding all loot goes to the communal pool when i was the only one who found anything of value. To you it was only two tokens you could use in your attempt to pay 30 players but that was my first piece of loot with actual value, hell if you had asked me i probably would have offered you half its value after repair and resale, you probably would have gotten 2 or 3 tokens still and id have been able to get the sense of achievement from sellng that first piece of loot which is now forever denied to me.
And no GWG before you bring up your mmorpg analogy again it doesnt apply, Auron is in no way a rogue and that cloak wasnt in a locked chest. It was in full view of everyone cycling through its different disguises, i was merely the only person to think "hold on a sec, that thing still works!"
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 20, 2014, 07:20:09 pm
I guess thats understandable, i honestly only need enough for either a standard ammo canister or a few grenades and the timeskip is 1 year long. Plus you could specify it as part of timeskip amp training, Surely thats enough time to recover?
Id be willing to give you a token for your efforts and im not trying to necro the argument but you did jip me two tokens by deciding all loot goes to the communal pool when i was the only one who found anything of value. To you it was only two tokens you could use in your attempt to pay 30 players but that was my first piece of loot with actual value, hell if you had asked me i probably would have offered you half its value after repair and resale, you probably would have gotten 2 or 3 tokens still and id have been able to get the sense of achievement from sellng that first piece of loot which is now forever denied to me.
And no GWG before you bring up your mmorpg analogy again it doesnt apply, Auron is in no way a rogue and that cloak wasnt in a locked chest. It was in full view of everyone cycling through its different disguises, i was merely the only person to think "hold on a sec, that thing still works!"
Reasonable enough. I'll add it to my action, but I won't give it top priority. If PW decides that Miya can't both train with his naginata and create some namite or whatever in the timeskip, then we'll just say I owe you a canister of the stuff after the mission sometime (to 'make up' for that cloak incident, even though we still don't know for certain that thing was ever even worth anything). Because I really want to be able to roll for UNCON when using that thing, decomp and all.
After that (whether you get it before or after the mission) we'll call ourselves even and forget the whole thing ever happened, deal?
And hey, even if you won't get to use them this mission, that just means you can save them to introduce the wonders of pyrotechnics to some aliens instead.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 07:26:47 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 20, 2014, 09:08:09 pm
Also im pretty sure neotherm can vaporise a battlesuit...More "melt through," but yeah, deployed correctly it would be devastating against them.
Id be willing to give you a token for your efforts and im not trying to necro the argument but you did jip me two tokens by deciding all loot goes to the communal pool when i was the only one who found anything of value. To you it was only two tokens you could use in your attempt to pay 30 players but that was my first piece of loot with actual value, hell if you had asked me i probably would have offered you half its value after repair and resale, you probably would have gotten 2 or 3 tokens still and id have been able to get the sense of achievement from sellng that first piece of loot which is now forever denied to me.No, you went "I look for loot!" and piecewise gave you that.
And no GWG before you bring up your mmorpg analogy again it doesnt apply, Auron is in no way a rogue and that cloak wasnt in a locked chest. It was in full view of everyone cycling through its different disguises, i was merely the only person to think "hold on a sec, that thing still works!"
And seriously, you lost. Live with it.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 09:25:18 pm
I have a hazy recollection of piecewise stating neotherm burns at some crazy temperature like 10,000+ degrees, i have another less hazy recollection of piecewise saying battlesuit plates melt at 3500...Also im pretty sure neotherm can vaporise a battlesuit...More "melt through," but yeah, deployed correctly it would be devastating against them.
No.. i went "hold on a sec, that shit still works!" What i posted was "grab the corpse and everything on it."Id be willing to give you a token for your efforts and im not trying to necro the argument but you did jip me two tokens by deciding all loot goes to the communal pool when i was the only one who found anything of value. To you it was only two tokens you could use in your attempt to pay 30 players but that was my first piece of loot with actual value, hell if you had asked me i probably would have offered you half its value after repair and resale, you probably would have gotten 2 or 3 tokens still and id have been able to get the sense of achievement from sellng that first piece of loot which is now forever denied to me.No, you went "I look for loot!" and piecewise gave you that.
And no GWG before you bring up your mmorpg analogy again it doesnt apply, Auron is in no way a rogue and that cloak wasnt in a locked chest. It was in full view of everyone cycling through its different disguises, i was merely the only person to think "hold on a sec, that thing still works!"
And seriously, you lost. Live with it.
Also i didnt lose, i chose to hand it over because the only other option at the time was to deny a pair of newbs their token each. I fully intended to recover those tokens at a later date and now i am. Ill live with that instead.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 20, 2014, 09:30:00 pm
And you can say all you like, you still failed to get what you wanted. And you had next to no support from anyone--why do you think you'd have more now?
Post by: NAV on February 20, 2014, 09:43:24 pm
Also, I think this argument has run its course.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 20, 2014, 09:45:00 pm
I have a hazy recollection of piecewise stating neotherm burns at some crazy temperature like 10,000+ degrees, i have another less hazy recollection of piecewise saying battlesuit plates melt at 3500...Also im pretty sure neotherm can vaporise a battlesuit...More "melt through," but yeah, deployed correctly it would be devastating against them.
Quick searching reveals you working with it, but no concrete numbers. Not even descriptions of effect, even. Thread searched; on-ship, search term; neotherm.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 09:48:53 pm
I had no support back then because everyone wanted money and hadnt looted anything themselves, its easy to support policies that benefit you at no personal cost.
Also radio has already agreed to make me a standard canister of neotherm. This shit is settled, why are you sill arguing?
@pyro: well it appears that dorf appears on page 753 with prior knowledge of neotherm as i included it in my second action, i might be recalling a pm or an out of thread discussion...
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 20, 2014, 10:34:36 pm
I had no support back then because everyone wanted money and hadnt looted anything themselves, its easy to support policies that benefit you at no personal cost.Which explains those on the same team as you, but what about the others, who weren't being paid from that budget? And consider: RC made it clear that the few tokens would be going entirely to new players. Veterans of previous missions knew they wouldn't see a...well, tokens don't come in fractions, but they knew they wouldn't get any benefit whatsoever. So why did they argue?
Quote
Also radio has already agreed to make me a standard canister of neotherm. This shit is settled, why are you sill arguing?Because you tried to play the victim, using this to your advantage, and were not. I do not like people pretending to be victims.
And I hate fallacious arguments.
Post by: NAV on February 20, 2014, 10:43:19 pm
Or, a better alternative: Take it to PMs.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on February 20, 2014, 10:54:34 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 21, 2014, 05:55:32 am
I have a better alternative, the matter is settled already so why dont we just stop posting about it hmmm?Indeed. I still think what I did was reasonable (something Pariah understands, it was for paying new people from the horribly hollow fund), but no matter who is wrong or right or whatever, if there's an easy solution that satisfies all parties, I'm taking that opportunity to end this for good and prevent friction between players. Besides, it won't actually cost me anything, so nothing's lost.
Post by: Corsair on February 21, 2014, 07:14:03 am
((I don't know what you are referring to with the bad response to criticism, although I may have forgotten can you point me to it))
Joseph, yours is a simple, yet effective design. A hypervelocity gauss rifle that can easily crack layers of battlesuit plate. Probably not a one-hit kill, mind you, and you would severely damage the battlesuit's armor as you cracked though the successive plates to reach the pilot - they're designed to crack on impact, to minimize damage to the next layer in. However, with a long-rod penetrator instead of a simple small bullet, you could crack multiple plates with one shot. Doesn't help much with the wrecked armor, but does reduce the number of hits required. However, I might note a potential personality conflict from your 'interview', such as it was. You seemed rather quick to defend your work preemptively, and it indicates to me you might not take criticism very well, which could turn into an issue. I'd rather not have you stay, if this could become a problem. You can still work remotely, and procuring the 'equipment beyond your means' shouldn't be a problem if you turn out good work, which I will say, your project has potential to be.
EDIT: Just checked I have no clue what you are talking about
Post by: PyroDesu on February 21, 2014, 08:20:16 am
((I don't know what you are referring to with the bad response to criticism, although I may have forgotten can you point me to it))
EDIT: Just checked I have no clue what you are talking about
"I want to stay because I know that I cannot fight not without equipment far beyond my current means, my aim here is to help be it repair work or tinkering, the only thing I really want is for my work to be respected: I have done this for more than 20 years I know what I am doing"
Relevant part bolded. He seemed rather quick to say something like that, it seemed quite defensive.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 21, 2014, 09:50:17 am
I have a better alternative, the matter is settled already so why dont we just stop posting about it hmmm?Why did you bring it up in the first place?
(P.S. The matter being settled was, essentially, my point.)
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 21, 2014, 12:21:14 pm
Post by: Corsair on February 21, 2014, 03:10:14 pm
((That wasn't really intended that way in a defensive sense (damn the lack of tonal inflection in writing) more of a request that he not have his work dismissed out of hand without a chance to defend it. also see IC below for more information ))((I don't know what you are referring to with the bad response to criticism, although I may have forgotten can you point me to it))
EDIT: Just checked I have no clue what you are talking about"I want to stay because I know that I cannot fight not without equipment far beyond my current means, my aim here is to help be it repair work or tinkering, the only thing I really want is for my work to be respected: I have done this for more than 20 years I know what I am doing"
Relevant part bolded. He seemed rather quick to say something like that, it seemed quite defensive.
"I guess you are referring to the response to why I wanted to stay, that defensiveness is rooted in my years at my old job, those scars on my face were a result of a lack of respect"
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 21, 2014, 03:22:36 pm
Anybody remember whether or not the Gauss rifles use superconductors?
Unless the supergenerator needs them, probably not.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 21, 2014, 03:45:36 pm
Why not? I'm not a physics expert but isn't the strength of magnetic fields generated by conductors related to the current going through them? So superconductor->less resistance->more current->stronger magnetic field->faster projectile.Anybody remember whether or not the Gauss rifles use superconductors?Unless the supergenerator needs them, probably not.
Post by: Corsair on February 21, 2014, 04:38:20 pm
Yeah but superconductors are still a bitch to keep cold, copper wires are far easierWhy not? I'm not a physics expert but isn't the strength of magnetic fields generated by conductors related to the current going through them? So superconductor->less resistance->more current->stronger magnetic field->faster projectile.Anybody remember whether or not the Gauss rifles use superconductors?Unless the supergenerator needs them, probably not.
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on February 21, 2014, 04:49:38 pm
Why not? I'm not a physics expert but isn't the strength of magnetic fields generated by conductors related to the current going through them? So superconductor->less resistance->more current->stronger magnetic field->faster projectile.
You can get projectile speeds of 42m/s with current technology without superconductors. That's fast enough.
The “CG-42″ Gauss Machine Gun (http://www.deltaveng.com/gauss-machine-gun/)
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 21, 2014, 04:55:26 pm
You could use a room temperature superconductor, if one has been discovered. There's also Stanene, which is technically not a superconductor but does have very small resistance at room temperature.Yeah but superconductors are still a bitch to keep cold, copper wires are far easierWhy not? I'm not a physics expert but isn't the strength of magnetic fields generated by conductors related to the current going through them? So superconductor->less resistance->more current->stronger magnetic field->faster projectile.Anybody remember whether or not the Gauss rifles use superconductors?Unless the supergenerator needs them, probably not.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanene
Post by: NAV on February 21, 2014, 05:11:25 pm
42 m/s isn't very fast for a bullet. The muzzle velocity of a glock is 375 m/s.Why not? I'm not a physics expert but isn't the strength of magnetic fields generated by conductors related to the current going through them? So superconductor->less resistance->more current->stronger magnetic field->faster projectile.
You can get projectile speeds of 42m/s with current technology without superconductors. That's fast enough.
The “CG-42″ Gauss Machine Gun (http://www.deltaveng.com/gauss-machine-gun/)
Post by: Tack on February 21, 2014, 07:38:54 pm
Take the head off a normal spear, put a kinetic force amp on the stump of the haft, with short heavy springs to either side. Clip the head to the springs, maybe with a click-on attachment, or a push'ntwist lightbulb type deal.
Basic premise.
Step 1: Stab enemy with spear.
Step 2: Impact of kinetic force amp against spearhead will cause it to massively increase the amount of power behind the jab. Anything less than superdense metal will probably explode into fragments of molten metal not dissimilar to a shaped charge explosive. A superdense spearhead will possibly just shoot off into the distance, if the armor is thin enough for complete penetration.
Step 3: Replace spearhead. Reloads in much the same way as a modern RPG.
I call it the suicide spear.
Post by: syvarris on February 21, 2014, 08:12:42 pm
Also, why would the springs do anything aside from reduce damage? It would reduce the amount of initial force that connects, and the explosion would probably push the weapon back before the spring could push any more force into the target. Plus I think kin amps only apply their force for a moment.
All that being said, it would be really cheap. Remove the springs and you might even be able to get it for free from the armory. If not, ask one of the amp smiths for a long metal baton.
...
Oh, and you really want to change your action right now. If you keep it as-is, Nyars will break your kneecaps. No Tinker until mission's over.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 21, 2014, 08:46:20 pm
First, what would you really gain over a standard kinetic amp? A bit of range, and a little bit of force. Spears do most of their damage because they have a really sharp point, and this ruins that because you're using a kin amp-- It has identical surface area to the standard punching glove.The spear-point is on the other end of the amp, and it was discovered by an investigative player that the operative part of the kinamp is a small chip-like thing.
Quote
Also, why would the springs do anything aside from reduce damage? It would reduce the amount of initial force that connects, and the explosion would probably push the weapon back before the spring could push any more force into the target. Plus I think kin amps only apply their force for a moment.Agreed.
All that being said, it would be really cheap. Remove the springs and you might even be able to get it for free from the armory. If not, ask one of the amp smiths for a long metal baton.
...
Oh, and you really want to change your action right now. If you keep it as-is, Nyars will break your kneecaps. No Tinker until mission's over.
This makes me think of something.
Retroactively look up all available information about the power source that got taken back in Mission 1.
Post by: PyroDesu on February 21, 2014, 08:47:58 pm
But will it be a problem? As you might have seen, I can be brash at times, or appear to be. Criticism will flow freely in this base, though most always intended to be constructive.
Post by: syvarris on February 21, 2014, 10:34:27 pm
Huh. I didn't realize he said to clip the head back on. I thought he meant to make an amp baton... I need to work on my reading comprehension.
That would probably make it more effective, although single shot. It'd still be useful as a long-ranged kin amp.
Also, I forgot to post this bit of RP before.
Steve listens carefully as Simus reviews his work, his expression static. He responds once she finishes with the others
"I tested how Altered would deal with a battlesuit mostly because the battlesuit was designed to combat them. Presumably, I may have missed some function of the suit, or misunderstood the use of some function, and watching a battlesuit fight them would have helped prevent that. I didn't intend to learn from how the Altered fought; I intended to learn from how the battlesuit fought.
And thank you for the recommendation. I'll keep that in mind when I make my decision."
Post by: Corsair on February 22, 2014, 02:22:16 am
((I'm going to assume Simus and co. are desynced from reality in Tinker at the moment, though only for talking - no actions. Since this entire thing was supposed to be over before the timeskip, but I ran out of time. The minor effect (number of rooms off the boardroom) can be retroactive. In reality, they're all taking part in the current activities.))"No no it won't, I am to paraphrase charles - single minded yet flexible - I can take criticism, flat denial by pulling rank and ignoring all attempts at justification is all that rankles me, although I understand how you took it the wrong way originally, in anything involving my work with a superior I have no experience with I assume the worst until I know them: Now I know you to a degree and see you are a fairer leader than most I ever seen "
But will it be a problem? As you might have seen, I can be brash at times, or appear to be. Criticism will flow freely in this base, though most always intended to be constructive.
Post by: Tack on February 22, 2014, 03:09:09 am
That would probably make it more effective, although single shot. It'd still be useful as a long-ranged kin amp.
((The basic idea is to have it as an armor-killer.
Reason for springs is simple- you need something which will keep the spearhead off the active end of the kinetic amp until you actually want to stab with it, yet will still allow it to touch the amp when you stab with it.
Reason for spear is simple- Kinetic amp behind a sharp point is hopefully more deadly than kinetic amp on the end of your fist.
Hopefully it'll do good work as a shaped charge on a stick, spearheads hopefully being pretty cheap to replace.
The reason I use a kinetic amp instead of an actual shaped charge on a stick is for better management. Explosives have to deal with that whole newton's law thing, so it'd kick like a bitch. Kinetic amp is all forward motion.
Also, on the subject of reading comprehension, I wouldn't term it as 'one use'.
The idea is to have a ready supply of spearheads, and just replace them as the kinetic amp demolishes them.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 22, 2014, 03:23:38 am
And it will be patently useless against armored targets - the spear tip will splatter on impact like a bullet, instead of the amp delivering all of the amplified force into the armor and the target directly. You're better off shooting spearheads from a gauss accelerator, at least you're not limited to 20 shots per 3 tokens.
Post by: Tack on February 22, 2014, 10:24:45 am
The kinetic amp works in such a way that anything attached to it will fly off into the distance after the first impact.That's only if it actually penetrates whatever you're shoving it up against.
However, good point on the theory that it might just end up acting as a crumple zone between the amp and the armor it's hitting.
A heavier spearhead, maybe?
(And also my character is good with uncon and terrible with con... So Gauss accelerator isn't exactly on cards for him specifically.)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 22, 2014, 10:32:13 am
Post by: Tack on February 22, 2014, 12:38:23 pm
I could try and pull the magnetics from the tesla saber in order to try and force the kinetic amp to discharge into a sharp point?
(Edit: Which is a great idea except it removes what would be necessary in the first place - i.e. shards of superheated steel fragments. If it just cuts cleanly through, that doesn't have enough collateral. Unless it's likely to cause spalling, which I'm not sure of considering the synthflesh and newmetals.)
Post by: Caellath on February 22, 2014, 12:44:47 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on February 22, 2014, 01:08:55 pm
All right. All of you have passed, a fact I find not surprising at all. You did come here with some expectation as to what we would be doing and knowledge of your own abilities, after all. Even if I think you would be more valuable with the Sword, you still have the opportunity to stay. The choice is now on you.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on February 22, 2014, 02:45:07 pm
Grate is remembering the one mission he went on.
Post by: lw on April 12, 2014, 03:54:05 pm
Summon and disassemble a laser rifle, rocket rifle and scout eye.
Try to connect a laser module from the rifle and a camera with propulsion system and control board from the scout eye to one battery from the rifle.
Then, fit the laser module on top of the rocket rifle, camera - under the barrel. Fit <that thing from the propulsion system> with the circutry and the battery near the rear side of the camera.
Rewire the circutry so that the first pull of the trigger sends N rockets (N is set on the side of the gun with a rotary switch) and activates the automatic tracking system (that's what parts from the scout eye are for) and on the second pull of the trigger it explodes the rockets with the laser.
Then, test, how much time does it take for 1 rocket to be exploded by the laser. (Needed for battery usage stats)
Then, spawn some mannequins on distances of 33, 50, 75, 100, 150, 250 and 500 feet from my current location.
Commence testing.
Post by: piecewise on April 14, 2014, 12:55:39 pm
Walk away from the spawn.Problem with that setup is that it assumes scout eyes have some sort of tracking and guidance system that can be used to target a laser at a moving rocket. They do not. In fact, Scout eyes are literally nothing more then a camera attached to rockets.
Summon and disassemble a laser rifle, rocket rifle and scout eye.
Try to connect a laser module from the rifle and a camera with propulsion system and control board from the scout eye to one battery from the rifle.
Then, fit the laser module on top of the rocket rifle, camera - under the barrel. Fit <that thing from the propulsion system> with the circutry and the battery near the rear side of the camera.
Rewire the circutry so that the first pull of the trigger sends N rockets (N is set on the side of the gun with a rotary switch) and activates the automatic tracking system (that's what parts from the scout eye are for) and on the second pull of the trigger it explodes the rockets with the laser.
Then, test, how much time does it take for 1 rocket to be exploded by the laser. (Needed for battery usage stats)
Then, spawn some mannequins on distances of 33, 50, 75, 100, 150, 250 and 500 feet from my current location.
Commence testing.
Post by: Nikitian on April 16, 2014, 09:40:23 am
Spawn a crystalline projector. Use Explode on it; study how it works (how a crystalline projectile is formed, how it is propelled and so forth).
Check the results of a crystalline projectile hitting 'soft' unprotected organical tissue (of a human), standart robot platform machinery, battlesuit plate (in a weak spot) and synthflesh.
Hey, Steve! Is there anything special about these crystals that we should know? I have a hunch there is more to them than just being thrown like rocks and their spontaneous growth. Weren't they once a bloody weird alien race, after all?
Post by: piecewise on April 16, 2014, 10:14:43 am
It's Tinkertime!The crystals appear to be formed via the use of a super concentrated solution and some manner of electrical crystallization. From what you can tell, the solution will naturally form these crystals when exposed to the right type of electrical charge.
Spawn a crystalline projector. Use Explode on it; study how it works (how a crystalline projectile is formed, how it is propelled and so forth).
Check the results of a crystalline projectile hitting 'soft' unprotected organical tissue (of a human), standart robot platform machinery, battlesuit plate (in a weak spot) and synthflesh.
Hey, Steve! Is there anything special about these crystals that we should know? I have a hunch there is more to them than just being thrown like rocks and their spontaneous growth. Weren't they once a bloody weird alien race, after all?
It is propelled using some sort of repulsive force...something similar to magnetism but electrical in nature and seemingly effecting only this crystal. Perhaps playing on some sort of unknown property of the crystal itself.
The results are pretty much a unanimous "Pierce it and then explode into shards and electricity." with the actual effectiveness of the action varying by target.
>Alien race? No. But they were developed using technology lifted from a xeno-archeological site.
Post by: Nikitian on April 16, 2014, 10:44:17 am
Post by: piecewise on April 16, 2014, 11:25:30 am
((Uhh, are we talking about the crystalline projector and not the piezoelectric shard launcher? I mean, 'explode into shards and electricity' and no mention of 'grow within the target'?))ah, yeah, sorry, brain fart. Similar names, figured you wouldn't be asking about it since you have ooc knowledge about it's creation. etc.
Er. If I remember right the thing is mostly a black box.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 16, 2014, 03:08:53 pm
Post by: Nikitian on April 17, 2014, 10:03:58 am
How long does the crystal cluster keep growing? If embedded in a human, would it grow throughout him? What about an elephant? That huge-manylegs-creature from the Abyss mission?
How well do the crystals grow within 'harder' materials like brainbot hardware? What about synthflesh? Can they penetrate armor (say, battlesuit plate in a weak/cracked spot?)?
Is it 'ACCESS DENIED' sort of blackbox (like the manipulators), or 'We don't understand it' sort of blackbox (like the High Energy Projector)?
Observe the results of successful crystal augmentation (the victim perfectly enduring the crystal growth). What changes does that introduce to the organism functioning? What are the short-term and long-term effects?
Post by: piecewise on April 17, 2014, 12:49:10 pm
Would you mind if I also tinkered in here while researching in the on ship thread? There's a lot of stuff I wanna do, but I don't wanna overload you with my stuff.Sure.
((So OOC knowledge shall be it, if you appear not to mind.))
How long does the crystal cluster keep growing? If embedded in a human, would it grow throughout him? What about an elephant? That huge-manylegs-creature from the Abyss mission?
How well do the crystals grow within 'harder' materials like brainbot hardware? What about synthflesh? Can they penetrate armor (say, battlesuit plate in a weak/cracked spot?)?
Is it 'ACCESS DENIED' sort of blackbox (like the manipulators), or 'We don't understand it' sort of blackbox (like the High Energy Projector)?
Observe the results of successful crystal augmentation (the victim perfectly enduring the crystal growth). What changes does that introduce to the organism functioning? What are the short-term and long-term effects?
Crystals grow for a set amount of time, regardless of what they hit.
They have limits, but they are quite sharp and the force with which they grow is pretty great. They could pierce battlesuit stuff with a good shot, though the damage they would do is erratic since they can't really be aimed, as it were.
As in the tinker interface just has a big black area on the schematics and attempting to access it just reveals a blank area.
"No Data Available" when you try to do that action.
Post by: Nikitian on April 17, 2014, 01:34:16 pm
So, could you please lift the restrictions and let us play with this technology to our hearts content and to the scientific glory and military might of the ARM? In the end, that's why we have Tinker, isn't it?
Load up the ammo variants used by the rocketrifle and the Sibilus gaussrocket hybrid rifle. To check: are the default variants explosive in both cases? What about special kinds of ammo?
Look up Hazmat suits like those once used by the infamous Men In Black Hazmat Suits of Paracelsus's Sword. What sorts of protection do they offer?
Look up Neotherm and it's properties.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 18, 2014, 07:11:32 am
Quote
Wait, the one in your arm? Cause that thing ain't a normal laser. It's a really complex adaption that basically has specially made focusing chambers down the length of your arm. It really can't be taken out without being altered substantially.Hmm. In that case, is there another way of turning the roll for that laser from CON to AUX? Or is there no other option but to upgrade CON if I wanna use the laser better?
Secondly, spawn an neutral avatar, and have it's pilot be killed suddenly. What happens? And if some entities that are hostile or friendly are spawned before pilot death, does the suit recognize the difference, or is it bloody death for all involved?
Post by: piecewise on April 18, 2014, 10:32:23 am
If I may ask: Steve, why is this information to be withheld from us? It's not like we are convicts anymore, if I recall correctly; it's not like we would - or even could, knowing your all-watching eye - dump the data to the UWM or something. And, it is not like these crystals are in any part connected to the Enigma of field manipulation, right?
So, could you please lift the restrictions and let us play with this technology to our hearts content and to the scientific glory and military might of the ARM? In the end, that's why we have Tinker, isn't it?
Load up the ammo variants used by the rocketrifle and the Sibilus gaussrocket hybrid rifle. To check: are the default variants explosive in both cases? What about special kinds of ammo?
Look up Hazmat suits like those once used by the infamous Men In Black Hazmat Suits of Paracelsus's Sword. What sorts of protection do they offer?
Look up Neotherm and it's properties.
>Black boxes are there for one of two reasons: Secrets or protection. Secrets are rare, protection is more common. Simply put, it would be too dangerous to the integrity of the ship and the surroundings to allow anyone not specially versed and prepared to fool around with the contents. When we leave, simus and her crew may get the opportunity to do so, should they build the facilities, but here and now it is too dangerous.
The rocket rifle is, but, if I remember right, the sibilus isn't explosive by nature. It's basically a gauss shell with rockets. Though making an explosive shell would be quite easy.
Their hazmat suits are mostly what you would call an "anti-status effect" suit. Ie they offer no real physical protection against things like projectiles or the like, but are extremely good at guarding against things like radiation, air borne contaminates, even mindfuckery, assuming it comes through a blockable channel.
Ohhh, that was a long time ago...any specific property? Beyond the fact that it gets stupidly hot?
QuoteWait, the one in your arm? Cause that thing ain't a normal laser. It's a really complex adaption that basically has specially made focusing chambers down the length of your arm. It really can't be taken out without being altered substantially.Hmm. In that case, is there another way of turning the roll for that laser from CON to AUX? Or is there no other option but to upgrade CON if I wanna use the laser better?
Secondly, spawn an neutral avatar, and have it's pilot be killed suddenly. What happens? And if some entities that are hostile or friendly are spawned before pilot death, does the suit recognize the difference, or is it bloody death for all involved?
Mechanical arm brace that uses motors to position your arm would work, I should think.
In that instance, in this simulation, nothing seems to happen. Hmm. You've beginning to think that the VR machines don't have a whole lot of accurate information on these things.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 18, 2014, 02:34:20 pm
Quote
Mechanical arm brace that uses motors to position your arm would work, I should think.
1) Would this brace hinder other uses of that arm in any way? Could I still punch stuff with it effectively?
2) Can it be turned off without it hindering use of that arm?
3) If turned on, will it turn every role for that arm into an AUX one? (e.g. if I punch a fool with the brace activated, what rolls would that use?)
4)What would it cost?
Quote
In that instance, in this simulation, nothing seems to happen. Hmm. You've beginning to think that the VR machines don't have a whole lot of accurate information on these things.
5)Ask Steve if he has a video that shows what happens when an AoW pilot dies with the suit still intact.
6)If not, ask if he could describe it to me.
Post by: Nikitian on April 19, 2014, 02:07:23 am
On the other hand, shouldn't it be allowed to tinker with it in VR without actually attempting anything on board? Say, if only to gather data to be sent to Hephaestus for real testing?
With Simus's permission perhaps?
What about any kinds of special ammo for the rocketrifle? Like chemical, insendiary, armor-piercing, etc.?
How much does a Hazmat suit cost? Can it be worn over or integrated into the Mk series suits?
How much does Neotherm cost? About how hot does it get? Is it produced on the spot by mixing two other chemicals, as I seem to remember?
Post by: PyroDesu on April 20, 2014, 06:57:47 pm
Just more of it. And flung by a gauss field as well as propelled by its own rockets.))
Post by: syvarris on April 20, 2014, 08:14:54 pm
((Note: the Sibilus uses the exact same ammo as the standard rocket rifle. I could probably even make a slight modification to allow it to use rocket rifle magazines, though the Sibius magazines are more economical (18.75 rounds/token versus 16.666 repeating rounds/token).
Just more of it. And flung by a gauss field as well as propelled by its own rockets.))
Spoiler: You /designed/ the gun, how are you wrong about this?! (click to show/hide)
((Honestly, Looking at what the Sibilus actually is, I've started to question why I thought it's such a nice gun. It damages BS armor, but only with an overcharge shot that has the equivalent of several gauss rifles' power. It isn't terribly rapid fire, at least as automatics go, and it keeps the rocket portion which I really don't understand now. I would think the actual amount of thrust they generate would be negligible, plus, why are complex rounds like that cheaper than gauss rifle rounds which are literally just a solid slug of ferromagnetic metal?))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on April 20, 2014, 08:18:30 pm
Also on the subject of neotherm so we can make a wiki page and never bother you about it again:
How long does neotherm burn for?
How long do the three chemicals take to fully react?
Does it function in vacuum/require oxygen?))
Post by: PyroDesu on April 20, 2014, 08:36:34 pm
Yeah, that's a mistake on my part (my memory may be good, but far from perfect, yeah?). Nevermind that, then.
As to whether or not it's a nice gun (I think it is, but there are certainly improvements to be made - both from wonky stats it's been given (partially my fault) to the actual design), I'll take that point by point - note that this is all from memory at the moment, I might be completely wrong on a thing or two by accidentally contradicting past me. It can damage BS armor with burst-fire as well as overcharge shots (as well - the normal overcharge shots only use 1 'set' of gauss coils, of 3), and consider that the burst-fire is the default option, as far as I can remember. Or, at least, PW has treated it as the default. As for rapid fire, it loses only to the normal rocket rifle, which has bursts of 5. Laser weapons not included in ROF estimates, of course.
As for the rocket concept itself, it was done in reality. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet) There were two major issues with it: poor accuracy and slow burn times (which meant the bullet was going very slowly as it exited the gun - but at completion of the burn, it was going at speeds equal or, in some cases, better to, normal firearms). The accuracy issue turned out not to be a flaw of the concept - the ammunition used had a manufacturing defect that left it incorrectly stabilized. The Sibilus has solved the second issue, and insofar as ER is concerned, the first doesn't exist (same with some modern attempts to replicate gyrojet guns).))
Post by: syvarris on April 20, 2014, 09:24:05 pm
So, nine rounds cracks battlesuit plate, or one round using all three circuits' overcharge. IIRC, there's five layers to BS plate, and the last two are stronger. So if you don't damage the gun, sandpapering through the first three layers takes 27 rounds, fired over 4.5 seconds. Or if you use super-overcharge, it takes only four rounds, but damages the gun to an unknown extent, and takes four times as long as it takes to charge an overcharge (which might be .5 seconds). Also kicks your arm off unless you're an inhuman monster like Feyri, or have mechanical assistance.
Y'know, someone should really check how many overcharges a gauss rifle can go through without killing itself. I think it was twenty. If so, and if an overcharge takes no longer to charge than a normal shot, there's really no purpose to ever firing standard shots. Few missions need more than twenty shots fired, and all equipment is repaired after the mission's over.
Oh, also, the Sibilus is stated to use rocket rifle ammo in the armory. No idea why.
@Rapid fire
Yes, it is rapid fire as far as our armory equipment is concerned. It's just slow in comparison to modern firearms, and I just tend to think in those terms.
...Gauss assault rifles were mentioned in the sharkmist mission. Nobody has VR tested those yet. I reaaally want someone to VR test them.
@Gyrojets
Wow, thanks for that link. Honestly, the only time I've heard about gyrojets previously was borderlands. Naturally, I assumed they made it up because, well, it's borderlands.
One problem that article doesn't mention is that I'd imagine they're quite bright and obvious, and may even leave a trail. That's a shining beacon pointing out a soldier's location, which is kinda a really bad thing.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on April 20, 2014, 11:12:06 pm
All you need to convert a standard rifle into a ballpup assault rifle is a beefy capacitor and a control circuit to serve as a timer and voltage limiter, both of which can easily be made by repurposing the overcharge circuitry all gauss rifles have.
Keeping the overcharge circuit permanently charged lets you store enough energy for an extra shot or two each time you discharge it, limiting the voltage ensures you dont fire one overpowered shell risking coil deformation and allows you to tweak the coil voltage so that you get the full 3 shot bullpup action, finally the timer keeps the discharges a set time apart allowing for the reload action to occur and also giving the capacitors a small opportunity to soak up more energy.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 20, 2014, 11:52:26 pm
Think cyclotron accelerator slash drum magazine.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 20, 2014, 11:54:19 pm
One of these days Anton will get back into Tinker. I've got a big backlog of interesting projects to try out, a Gauss Assault Cannon being one of them.
Think cyclotron accelerator slash drum magazine.
Kinda like the coil gun in an Avatar?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 20, 2014, 11:58:13 pm
Perhaps, though I honestly don't remember if the Avatar coilgun is capable of sustained automatic fire. Or indeed if it features a cyclotron.One of these days Anton will get back into Tinker. I've got a big backlog of interesting projects to try out, a Gauss Assault Cannon being one of them.
Think cyclotron accelerator slash drum magazine.
Kinda like the coil gun in an Avatar?
A "coilgun" brings to mind a stereotypical kind of videogame railgun, with electromagnetic coils accelerating a projectile along a straight line. The one I'm thinking of... is kinda different.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 21, 2014, 12:00:38 am
Perhaps, though I honestly don't remember if the Avatar coilgun is capable of sustained automatic fire. Or indeed if it features a cyclotron.One of these days Anton will get back into Tinker. I've got a big backlog of interesting projects to try out, a Gauss Assault Cannon being one of them.
Think cyclotron accelerator slash drum magazine.
Kinda like the coil gun in an Avatar?
A "coilgun" brings to mind a stereotypical kind of videogame railgun, with electromagnetic coils accelerating a projectile along a straight line. The one I'm thinking of... is kinda different.
I dunno how that Avatar's gun works, only that it's called coilgun, and that it's a rapid fire gauss cannon. Might wanna look into it, could save you some work.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 21, 2014, 12:05:32 am
Seriously, with the Avatar you could probably have it fire tungsten rebar using an auto-drawn synthflesh bowstring embedded in the arm, and it'd work as well, if not better than a gauss cannon.
My design would be intended for more... personal (as in man-portable) use, and with less egregious power requirements (though with quite a bit of a strength requirement).
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 21, 2014, 12:20:00 am
I think that in case of the Avatar, it's just a regular coilgun, just making use of the considerable power output and natural toughness of the machine, simultaneously avoiding the problems of rail erosion and heating.A gunner bot also has a coilgun, mounted on a not-synthflesh base. So a coilgun probably doesn't need Avatar strength to work.
Seriously, with the Avatar you could probably have it fire tungsten rebar using an auto-drawn synthflesh bowstring embedded in the arm, and it'd work as well, if not better than a gauss cannon.
My design would be intended for more... personal (as in man-portable) use, and with less egregious power requirements (though with quite a bit of a strength requirement).
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 21, 2014, 12:52:46 am
Probably, but I'd still like to try that design out. No reason not to, at least in VR. :PI think that in case of the Avatar, it's just a regular coilgun, just making use of the considerable power output and natural toughness of the machine, simultaneously avoiding the problems of rail erosion and heating.A gunner bot also has a coilgun, mounted on a not-synthflesh base. So a coilgun probably doesn't need Avatar strength to work.
Seriously, with the Avatar you could probably have it fire tungsten rebar using an auto-drawn synthflesh bowstring embedded in the arm, and it'd work as well, if not better than a gauss cannon.
My design would be intended for more... personal (as in man-portable) use, and with less egregious power requirements (though with quite a bit of a strength requirement).
Post by: syvarris on April 21, 2014, 09:35:06 am
Also, I as well have a massive amount of Tinker projects. Several of which are to clear up old arguments ("Is a max level decomp really three decomps of the previous type?"), and most of which have to do with automanips. I'm sure that if I get enough data on them, I can break the game.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 21, 2014, 09:57:00 am
Post by: Toaster on April 21, 2014, 10:03:00 am
Also, I as well have a massive amount of Tinker projects. Several of which are to clear up old arguments ("Is a max level decomp really three decomps of the previous type?"), and most of which have to do with automanips. I'm sure that if I get enough data on them, I can break the game.))
"Because the last one is just three of the ones before it stuck together. It's actually under-priced."
That's from the AM. I suppose she could be lying, but that's convincing enough for me.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 21, 2014, 10:07:24 am
((Well, the device I'm planning is really most likely to be a coilgun in principle, except one fed by a constant power source rather than capacitors. A cyclotron accelerates particles within a spiraling magnetic field, starting at the center and moving outward as the particles pick up speed. Applying a similar principle to a gauss weapon could allow "chambering" a stream of magnetic rounds, utilizing a constant power supply to accelerate them all at once, slower, but with the ability to spew them out at a rapid, constant rate. It's be a little like a gauss minigun, it'll take a second to spool up but once it starts firing it can keep firing till the ammunition runs out. At least, in theory.))
Feyri got a rotary gauss machinegun as her Christmas gift. I kinda suspect that'll be cheaper than building a miniature cyclotron.
Sorry for shooting down your stuff by the way, just trying to prevent you from doing unnecessary work.
Post by: piecewise on April 21, 2014, 10:07:44 am
QuoteMechanical arm brace that uses motors to position your arm would work, I should think.
1) Would this brace hinder other uses of that arm in any way? Could I still punch stuff with it effectively?
2) Can it be turned off without it hindering use of that arm?
3) If turned on, will it turn every role for that arm into an AUX one? (e.g. if I punch a fool with the brace activated, what rolls would that use?)
4)What would it cost?QuoteIn that instance, in this simulation, nothing seems to happen. Hmm. You've beginning to think that the VR machines don't have a whole lot of accurate information on these things.
5)Ask Steve if he has a video that shows what happens when an AoW pilot dies with the suit still intact.
6)If not, ask if he could describe it to me.
1.if it's designed correctly, I don't see why not.
2.See answer 1.
3.Yes, but it will only really be useful for shooting most of the time,unless you preprogram very specific actions, since trying to hit someone with it would be far too slow.
4.Probably not a lot. It would just be a metal brace with motors. 3-4 token probably, if you're just gonna use it for aiming.
5-6: >That depends on the strength of will of the pilot, their clarity of vision. The pilot of an avatar who his actively sync-ed is extremely hard to kill permanently. More often then not, you see a sync backflow and blending occur. Mechanically there are guards against this: Fluspirilene coated, graphite core, neural inhibiting spears, high dose tranquilizers, pulsed electrical current to the heart, etc. It rarely works. But you're not interested in the minutiae are you? When the pilot dies, he doesn't die. He becomes part of the avatar. If his mind is strong, the avatar will carry out whatever goal he had in death. If not, it will simply do whatever it wants now that it has been freed from it's constraints.
That manipulator you gave it makes it even more dangerous.
Post by: lw on April 21, 2014, 02:26:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also,
Find cheapest hackable electronics, to mess with.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 21, 2014, 03:00:18 pm
Quote
1.if it's designed correctly, I don't see why not.
2.See answer 1.
3.Yes, but it will only really be useful for shooting most of the time,unless you preprogram very specific actions, since trying to hit someone with it would be far too slow.
4.Probably not a lot. It would just be a metal brace with motors. 3-4 token probably, if you're just gonna use it for aiming.
5-6: >That depends on the strength of will of the pilot, their clarity of vision. The pilot of an avatar who his actively sync-ed is extremely hard to kill permanently. More often then not, you see a sync backflow and blending occur. Mechanically there are guards against this: Fluspirilene coated, graphite core, neural inhibiting spears, high dose tranquilizers, pulsed electrical current to the heart, etc. It rarely works. But you're not interested in the minutiae are you? When the pilot dies, he doesn't die. He becomes part of the avatar. If his mind is strong, the avatar will carry out whatever goal he had in death. If not, it will simply do whatever it wants now that it has been freed from it's constraints.
That manipulator you gave it makes it even more dangerous.
1) Would I need to design this brace myself from scratch, or is there one available for purchase from the Armory?
2) Ask if the things described also occur if the neural inhibitors were at 100%, and if not what happens instead.
3) Ask Steve how many inmates piloted an AoW before, and how he handled it if they became rebellious or they needed to be extracted for taking their brain (for adding to Steve).
4) Is there some sort of way of shutting down the Avatar? If one went berserk, does Steve have some sort of failsafe for that to stop it?
5) Could the automatic injector system be modified to allow injection at will (as in, when I want it to) of a stat boosting pill? Would this require a roll?
6) Could the automatic injector system be modified to automatically inject a stat boosting pill on certain conditions (e.g. when detecting the pilot is gravely wounded, or when detecting the pilot is loosing focus)?
Post by: piecewise on April 22, 2014, 10:25:45 am
Well, it's simple so I'll give you a base model and you can see if there's anything you want to add to it.Quote1.if it's designed correctly, I don't see why not.
2.See answer 1.
3.Yes, but it will only really be useful for shooting most of the time,unless you preprogram very specific actions, since trying to hit someone with it would be far too slow.
4.Probably not a lot. It would just be a metal brace with motors. 3-4 token probably, if you're just gonna use it for aiming.
5-6: >That depends on the strength of will of the pilot, their clarity of vision. The pilot of an avatar who his actively sync-ed is extremely hard to kill permanently. More often then not, you see a sync backflow and blending occur. Mechanically there are guards against this: Fluspirilene coated, graphite core, neural inhibiting spears, high dose tranquilizers, pulsed electrical current to the heart, etc. It rarely works. But you're not interested in the minutiae are you? When the pilot dies, he doesn't die. He becomes part of the avatar. If his mind is strong, the avatar will carry out whatever goal he had in death. If not, it will simply do whatever it wants now that it has been freed from it's constraints.
That manipulator you gave it makes it even more dangerous.
1) Would I need to design this brace myself from scratch, or is there one available for purchase from the Armory?
2) Ask if the things described also occur if the neural inhibitors were at 100%, and if not what happens instead.
3) Ask Steve how many inmates piloted an AoW before, and how he handled it if they became rebellious or they needed to be extracted for taking their brain (for adding to Steve).
4) Is there some sort of way of shutting down the Avatar? If one went berserk, does Steve have some sort of failsafe for that to stop it?
5) Could the automatic injector system be modified to allow injection at will (as in, when I want it to) of a stat boosting pill? Would this require a roll?
6) Could the automatic injector system be modified to automatically inject a stat boosting pill on certain conditions (e.g. when detecting the pilot is gravely wounded, or when detecting the pilot is loosing focus)?
Yes. We're not sure why.
Them acting rebellious of their own accord isn't a problem. Knocking them out works and doesn't cause problems. It's death that seems to trigger it.
Avatars are not complete. They don't function using normal metabolic processes, they draw their energy from an internal power source. This power source can be disabled (and is) when they become dangerous. However, doing so doesn't shut them down instantly, they still a minute or two worth of activity.
It is possible.
It is possible, though "losing focus" injections might require some extra sensors rather then the bio-sensors that detect injury.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 22, 2014, 04:36:28 pm
Quote
Well, it's simple so I'll give you a base model and you can see if there's anything you want to add to it.
Yes. We're not sure why.
Them acting rebellious of their own accord isn't a problem. Knocking them out works and doesn't cause problems. It's death that seems to trigger it.
Avatars are not complete. They don't function using normal metabolic processes, they draw their energy from an internal power source. This power source can be disabled (and is) when they become dangerous. However, doing so doesn't shut them down instantly, they still a minute or two worth of activity.
It is possible.
It is possible, though "losing focus" injections might require some extra sensors rather then the bio-sensors that detect injury.
1) could I get a price estate on a mechanical brace that:
-turns con into aux roll, but only for aiming/shooting a weapon with that arm
-can be turned of and on easily from within the Avatar
-when deactivated, does not hinder use of that arm in any way.
-can be detached in case it gets damaged and starts screwing up the aim
-can be added/improved upon later (hard- or software)
2) when Steve is not around to deactivate the power source, will it deactivate on it's own when the Avatar is going berserk? If yes, how does the suit know when to do that? What does it measure?
3) what would you need to reliably sense the loss of focus? Would brainwave/brain activity be sufficient? Or are there other/better options?
Post by: piecewise on April 23, 2014, 11:50:07 am
QuoteWell, it's simple so I'll give you a base model and you can see if there's anything you want to add to it.
Yes. We're not sure why.
Them acting rebellious of their own accord isn't a problem. Knocking them out works and doesn't cause problems. It's death that seems to trigger it.
Avatars are not complete. They don't function using normal metabolic processes, they draw their energy from an internal power source. This power source can be disabled (and is) when they become dangerous. However, doing so doesn't shut them down instantly, they still a minute or two worth of activity.
It is possible.
It is possible, though "losing focus" injections might require some extra sensors rather then the bio-sensors that detect injury.
1) could I get a price estate on a mechanical brace that:
-turns con into aux roll, but only for aiming/shooting a weapon with that arm
-can be turned of and on easily from within the Avatar
-when deactivated, does not hinder use of that arm in any way.
-can be detached in case it gets damaged and starts screwing up the aim
-can be added/improved upon later (hard- or software)
2) when Steve is not around to deactivate the power source, will it deactivate on it's own when the Avatar is going berserk? If yes, how does the suit know when to do that? What does it measure?
3) what would you need to reliably sense the loss of focus? Would brainwave/brain activity be sufficient? Or are there other/better options?
Letsee..
Shoot for 4. Since it's just a metal brace with a set of motors that just have to disengage and allow free movement when not in use.
Steve or someone else needs to deactivate it currently.
Probably a calibrated brainwave monitor.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 23, 2014, 12:50:00 pm
Quote
Letsee..That's quite affordable. Coolio.
Shoot for 4. Since it's just a metal brace with a set of motors that just have to disengage and allow free movement when not in use.
Quote
Steve or someone else needs to deactivate it currently.What would be the price for:
Probably a calibrated brainwave monitor.
1) a calibrated brainwave monitor?
2) a pill injection system that activates either when prompted by the user, or when the brainwave monitor detects pilot losing focus too much?
And questions:
3) could that auto-shut off be coupled to this brainwave monitor?
4) could control be given to a teammate?
5) if power is cut, does this damage the synthflesh/avatar as a whole/pilot? Is there a separate power source for powering the life support systems? How badly does the pilot suffer if life support is cut, and how long before bad shit kicks in? Do the synthflesh cells suffer from nutrient or oxygen deprivation like regular cells do, and how badly?
Post by: Nikitian on April 24, 2014, 02:32:13 am
I see. Oh well.((Missed me. Also, related:))
On the other hand, shouldn't it be allowed to tinker with it in VR without actually attempting anything on board? Say, if only to gather data to be sent to Hephaestus for real testing?
With Simus's permission perhaps?
What about any kinds of special ammo for the rocketrifle? Like chemical, insendiary, armor-piercing, etc.?
How much does a Hazmat suit cost? Can it be worn over or integrated into the Mk series suits?
How much does Neotherm cost? About how hot does it get? Is it produced on the spot by mixing two other chemicals, as I seem to remember?
((@Piecewise
Also on the subject of neotherm so we can make a wiki page and never bother you about it again:
How long does neotherm burn for?
How long do the three chemicals take to fully react?
Does it function in vacuum/require oxygen?))
Post by: piecewise on April 24, 2014, 11:33:53 am
QuoteLetsee..That's quite affordable. Coolio.
Shoot for 4. Since it's just a metal brace with a set of motors that just have to disengage and allow free movement when not in use.QuoteSteve or someone else needs to deactivate it currently.What would be the price for:
Probably a calibrated brainwave monitor.
1) a calibrated brainwave monitor?
2) a pill injection system that activates either when prompted by the user, or when the brainwave monitor detects pilot losing focus too much?
And questions:
3) could that auto-shut off be coupled to this brainwave monitor?
4) could control be given to a teammate?
5) if power is cut, does this damage the synthflesh/avatar as a whole/pilot? Is there a separate power source for powering the life support systems? How badly does the pilot suffer if life support is cut, and how long before bad shit kicks in? Do the synthflesh cells suffer from nutrient or oxygen deprivation like regular cells do, and how badly?
1. 3-4 tokens
2. Modifying the current one to do that? 2-3 token
3.Sure, though I can't guarantee it would work. The avatar's brain feeding back into yours might confuse it, not trigger the shut off.
4.Sure.
5. Cutting power will only be dangerous to the pilot if the power is cut for long enough that he deoxygenates the fluid in there via respiration. I suppose you could starve after a while too but I hope they would cut you out before that happened, if nothing else. The synthflesh is fine. Though, when you activate the cut, it's a mechanical separation. You'd need someone to physically restore the links.
No AP, but there are explosive, incendiary and melter rounds. There's even a "Sticky grenade" round.I see. Oh well.((Missed me. Also, related:))
On the other hand, shouldn't it be allowed to tinker with it in VR without actually attempting anything on board? Say, if only to gather data to be sent to Hephaestus for real testing?
With Simus's permission perhaps?
What about any kinds of special ammo for the rocketrifle? Like chemical, insendiary, armor-piercing, etc.?
How much does a Hazmat suit cost? Can it be worn over or integrated into the Mk series suits?
How much does Neotherm cost? About how hot does it get? Is it produced on the spot by mixing two other chemicals, as I seem to remember?((@Piecewise
Also on the subject of neotherm so we can make a wiki page and never bother you about it again:
How long does neotherm burn for?
How long do the three chemicals take to fully react?
Does it function in vacuum/require oxygen?))
By mass, one kilogram burns, at standard temperature and pressure, under normal circumstances, for about 30 seconds.
Nearly instant, assuming they're mixed correctly.
It's self oxidizing.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 24, 2014, 01:29:40 pm
See reference (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106279.msg4788721;topicseen#msg4788721).
If any research points left, look up the major engagements of the Red Moon rebellion. What tactics were used? What hardware? (this is for both sides)
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 24, 2014, 03:51:47 pm
Because I was thinking of using the motion sensor to pick up sound, so even in vacuum and with no radio, I could hear people. Or I could use it to pick up the vibrations inside a Sod Commander's suit, thus allowing me to record their voice.
Post by: Nikitian on April 25, 2014, 12:30:21 am
Examine the hazmat suits. How much do they cost? Can they be integrated into Mk series suits (modular design and all) or worn over? Also, on their own, are they even space-worthy?
Look up 'modern' UWM military-employed suits.
Compared to the Mk series, how good are they? Have any of the critical vulnerabilities of Mk series been overcome (the heat fins, electrical/radiation insulation, chemical resistance, etc.)?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 25, 2014, 12:35:20 am
((Uh oh! My research points must be running low! :P ))((The heat fins are a Mk1-only feature. Mk2 and up do not have that vulnerability, as they're no longer mere repurposed spacesuits. Also, radiation insulation is one of the stronger points of the Mk series already, together with thermal insulation.))
Examine the hazmat suits. How much do they cost? Can they be integrated into Mk series suits (modular design and all) or worn over? Also, on their own, are they even space-worthy?
Look up 'modern' UWM military-employed suits.
Compared to the Mk series, how good are they? Have any of the critical vulnerabilities of Mk series been overcome (the heat fins, electrical/radiation insulation, chemical resistance, etc.)?
Post by: piecewise on April 25, 2014, 10:02:35 am
Ask Steve what the 'the Young Experiment' was.
See reference (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106279.msg4788721;topicseen#msg4788721).
If any research points left, look up the major engagements of the Red Moon rebellion. What tactics were used? What hardware? (this is for both sides)
That was steve making reference to a real experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment
NO LORE FOR YOU! Sorry.
As per the red moon rebellions, you won't find much in the way of specific data about them because...well...that was probably one of the UWM's most brutal uses of force against other humans. They don't particularly like the details of what was, in essence, a genocide, to be published for general scrutiny.
Can cameyes be programmed to detect other things? EMF from electronics for example or integrate a rangefinder or use whatever Doppler measurement they use to detect vibration to detect speed. Or do they use some kind of infrared beam or optical analysis to detect motion?Hypothetically, it's possible. Not sure if the cam eyes are the best choice for it though. I mean, you're gonna need some badass level sensors to be able to detect the vibrations of a helmet from a distance and translate it into sound. I mean, think about how fucking small those vibrations are. Think about all the other noises it would have to contend with. And if that sod shakes his head it's gonna blow your eardrums out.
Because I was thinking of using the motion sensor to pick up sound, so even in vacuum and with no radio, I could hear people. Or I could use it to pick up the vibrations inside a Sod Commander's suit, thus allowing me to record their voice.
((Uh oh! My research points must be running low! :P ))You could probably wear the suit over a normal suit, with a few alterations.
Examine the hazmat suits. How much do they cost? Can they be integrated into Mk series suits (modular design and all) or worn over? Also, on their own, are they even space-worthy?
Look up 'modern' UWM military-employed suits.
Compared to the Mk series, how good are they? Have any of the critical vulnerabilities of Mk series been overcome (the heat fins, electrical/radiation insulation, chemical resistance, etc.)?
When you say their suits, do you mean sod suits or the suits normal human soldiers would wear?
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 25, 2014, 01:32:58 pm
Quote
That was steve making reference to a real experimentHuh, didn't think Steve would be making references to (from this game's perspective) ancient physics experiments. I know what the experiment was, we spend some time on it in physics class. Oh well, I'll just get my fluff somewhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment
NO LORE FOR YOU! Sorry.
Quote
As per the red moon rebellions, you won't find much in the way of specific data about them because...well...that was probably one of the UWM's most brutal uses of force against other humans. They don't particularly like the details of what was, in essence, a genocide, to be published for general scrutiny.
Ask Steve if he could tell me more about them. I already know the general history, I'm looking for more specific stuff, like how the rebels managed to hold out as long as they did, and what eventually did them in.
Look for info on the latest wars the UWM was in (not counting our rebellion). How's the Haebi war going, for example?
Post by: Toaster on April 26, 2014, 11:51:13 am
QuoteThat was steve making reference to a real experimentHuh, didn't think Steve would be making references to (from this game's perspective) ancient physics experiments. I know what the experiment was, we spend some time on it in physics class. Oh well, I'll just get my fluff somewhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment
NO LORE FOR YOU! Sorry.
He's already made references to actual films from this era at least once.
Post by: piecewise on April 29, 2014, 10:39:07 am
Mostly they managed to survive by using their knowledge of the area and the fact the UWM Never really took them seriously for a long time. They sent in small squads not armed for the close quarters urban combat that they were going to be doing. It was really a boondoggle on their part. What eventually ended it was simply the use of specialized extermination troops.QuoteThat was steve making reference to a real experimentHuh, didn't think Steve would be making references to (from this game's perspective) ancient physics experiments. I know what the experiment was, we spend some time on it in physics class. Oh well, I'll just get my fluff somewhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment
NO LORE FOR YOU! Sorry.QuoteAs per the red moon rebellions, you won't find much in the way of specific data about them because...well...that was probably one of the UWM's most brutal uses of force against other humans. They don't particularly like the details of what was, in essence, a genocide, to be published for general scrutiny.
Ask Steve if he could tell me more about them. I already know the general history, I'm looking for more specific stuff, like how the rebels managed to hold out as long as they did, and what eventually did them in.
Look for info on the latest wars the UWM was in (not counting our rebellion). How's the Haebi war going, for example?
Haebi war was never really a war so much as an attempt to exterminate a possibly dangerous life form. It's an intermittent conflict at best. The UWM hasn't had what you would call a good old fashion war for centuries.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 29, 2014, 12:49:33 pm
Quote
What eventually ended it was simply the use of specialized extermination troops.Could you tell me more about these troops? What exactly did they use? Did the rebels have any sort of response to it, or were they wiped away immediately?
Quote
Haebi war was never really a war so much as an attempt to exterminate a possibly dangerous life form. It's an intermittent conflict at best. The UWM hasn't had what you would call a good old fashion war for centuries.Did they succeed in this endeavor? What's the latest news about it that Steve knows about?
Finally, open new tinker project. Name pending.
Search for chemicals with strong adhesive properties. Then look for strong foaming agents that work with this product. I'm looking to create some sort of extremely sticky goop to restrain and detain civilians in a non-lethal way. Kinda like the 'containment foam' in Worm.
Oh, and a strong polymer whose monomers don't start crosslinking without their appropriate catalyst as well.
Post by: piecewise on April 30, 2014, 10:58:19 am
Poison gas, Fire and radiation. They basically fumigated the place. In fact, you may want to talk to lars about it, he may recognize such a being.QuoteWhat eventually ended it was simply the use of specialized extermination troops.Could you tell me more about these troops? What exactly did they use? Did the rebels have any sort of response to it, or were they wiped away immediately?QuoteHaebi war was never really a war so much as an attempt to exterminate a possibly dangerous life form. It's an intermittent conflict at best. The UWM hasn't had what you would call a good old fashion war for centuries.Did they succeed in this endeavor? What's the latest news about it that Steve knows about?
Finally, open new tinker project. Name pending.
Search for chemicals with strong adhesive properties. Then look for strong foaming agents that work with this product. I'm looking to create some sort of extremely sticky goop to restrain and detain civilians in a non-lethal way. Kinda like the 'containment foam' in Worm.
Oh, and a strong polymer whose monomers don't start crosslinking without their appropriate catalyst as well.
They stuck around for a bit, but surrendered fairly quickly. Standard procedure was to fight their way to the environmental control and then start pumping poison into the entire air supply. When you hear about an entire colony reduced to piles of blistered, melting meat by artificially enhanced supertoxins you kinda lose your will to fight.
They'll probably never really succeed in it until they know the source, which they don't. If I had to guess I could probably get close, but I'm not gonna tell them that. Let them split their forces between two fronts. Better for us.
As per their recent actions, they managed to destroy a spore world, which is a pretty impressive thing to see. Even I'll admit that they're good at killing things when they get in the groove.
Oh god there is a video I want to link here from youtube. Oh god. Oh god. Strong adhesive properties (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQfRgqulDlg). Oh god. Don't click that. Don't ask me where I found It. I forget.
Ahem. So you want a foam that is very sticky and comes in two parts so you need to apply the catalyst before it starts. Ok. How fast acting you want it to be? Want to spray them with the goo then the catalyst? Or mix them before firing and just fire a spray of the expanding goo?
Post by: Toaster on April 30, 2014, 12:04:20 pm
Poison gas, Fire and radiation. They basically fumigated the place. In fact, you may want to talk to lars about it, he may recognize such a being.
((He might? /me thinks back... ))
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 30, 2014, 12:50:23 pm
((Wasn't sure what he meant there, was hoping you'd know...Poison gas, Fire and radiation. They basically fumigated the place. In fact, you may want to talk to lars about it, he may recognize such a being.((He might? /me thinks back... ))
Think harder! Think until your brains explode!))
Quote
They'll probably never really succeed in it until they know the source, which they don't. If I had to guess I could probably get close, but I'm not gonna tell them that. Let them split their forces between two fronts. Better for us.Ask Steve if he has video footage of that event. If yes, watch it.
As per their recent actions, they managed to destroy a spore world, which is a pretty impressive thing to see. Even I'll admit that they're good at killing things when they get in the groove.
Quote
So you want a foam that is very sticky and comes in two parts so you need to apply the catalyst before it starts. Ok. How fast acting you want it to be? Want to spray them with the goo then the catalyst? Or mix them before firing and just fire a spray of the expanding goo?Mix before firing. Make the catalyst strong enough for rapid crosslinking, but weak enough that it takes a little while to really heavily start the reaction. In other words, add a window of time between mixture exiting spray nozzle and maximum crosslinking (to prevent the goo expanding too fast and not encapsulating the target).
(One way to realistically achieve this is to add another component to the goo, which acts as a 'catalyst for the catalyst'. Basically, the goo crosslinking catalyst only works once the secondary catalyst activates it. That way, by choosing the amount of secondary catalyst one can choose the time at which the reaction starts, while still getting very fast reaction once it gets going)
The effective range (range at which it can still ensnare a victim reliably) of the goop will probably be limited to melee-short range, with lower medium range being the upper limit. It should start crosslinking once it's about 1m out of the spray, so a second or two after launch (this'll depend on the exit speed of the mix)
Secondly, in choosing the polymer, be sure to also look for something that can dissolve the crosslinked goop. Also look for something that can wash away the adhesive (hopefully without being extremely toxic).
(I'll look into the hardware once the chem mixture and such is done, m'kay?)
Post by: piecewise on April 30, 2014, 01:25:52 pm
You've never met him, but you've read about him.Poison gas, Fire and radiation. They basically fumigated the place. In fact, you may want to talk to lars about it, he may recognize such a being.
((He might? /me thinks back... ))
Post by: Toaster on April 30, 2014, 01:28:43 pm
"Sim-de: God of Poison and toxins: Sim-de the toxic."
The image on the opposing page shows a man in an armored, black chemsuit with a great tank of poison on his back and what looks like the sprayer part of a flame thrower, minus the pilot light. The symbol at the bottom of the page is a bit odd. It shows a crude drawing of a gas mask with a large arrow pointing to the right at three circles arranged in an upside down triangle shape, two on top, one on the bottom. After a moment of staring at it you notice that the upper circles correspond to the circular view ports on the mask while the lower one matches the large, circular central filter.
"Sim-de is mindless, indiscriminate and pays no heed to anything but a compulsive need to spread his toxins. Luckily, his favor is also granted just as thoughtlessly and his symbol is thought to grant protection from exposure to toxins as well as aid in healing of toxic exposure. There are some who believe that being branded with his symbol grants, or rather curses, the worshiper with toxicity. "
Post by: Nikitian on May 03, 2014, 04:34:08 am
Start a new project. Working name 'ROSES-IV'.
Spawn a Black hazmat suit. Fit the Mk II medical & life support systems in it.
Add/upgrade full in-depth user health monitoring subsystem capable of detecting mind tampering side effects as well, automatically send the data to the user's designated team leader and mission control (i.e. Steve).
Integrate a small tank of medifoam and a small tank of fleshknitter into the med system: the substances are to be applied automatically in microdoses where necessary.
Reprogram the system to close gaping wounds with medifoam rather than cut the damaged bodyparts off where it is preferable.
Add the 'field remount' option of unsnapping an iris and fleshknitting the cut. Supplying medication to the snapped off bodypart must also be possible.
Post by: piecewise on May 05, 2014, 11:39:49 am
You wanna do that via just putting it over the mkII or trying to physically take all the systems out and stick it in the other suit, Because that is complex.
So Anti-mindfuck system eh? What do you want it to look for, physiology wise?
That works.
The system usually only severs if the suit is damaged in a hostile environment anyways.
You can already reopen the iris, and the suit does provide medical care to severed limbs already, though really all it does is pump it full of preserving chemicals.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 05, 2014, 12:27:59 pm
*cough cough*
((Wasn't sure what he meant there, was hoping you'd know...Poison gas, Fire and radiation. They basically fumigated the place. In fact, you may want to talk to lars about it, he may recognize such a being.((He might? /me thinks back... ))
Think harder! Think until your brains explode!))QuoteThey'll probably never really succeed in it until they know the source, which they don't. If I had to guess I could probably get close, but I'm not gonna tell them that. Let them split their forces between two fronts. Better for us.Ask Steve if he has video footage of that event. If yes, watch it.
As per their recent actions, they managed to destroy a spore world, which is a pretty impressive thing to see. Even I'll admit that they're good at killing things when they get in the groove.QuoteSo you want a foam that is very sticky and comes in two parts so you need to apply the catalyst before it starts. Ok. How fast acting you want it to be? Want to spray them with the goo then the catalyst? Or mix them before firing and just fire a spray of the expanding goo?Mix before firing. Make the catalyst strong enough for rapid crosslinking, but weak enough that it takes a little while to really heavily start the reaction. In other words, add a window of time between mixture exiting spray nozzle and maximum crosslinking (to prevent the goo expanding too fast and not encapsulating the target).
(One way to realistically achieve this is to add another component to the goo, which acts as a 'catalyst for the catalyst'. Basically, the goo crosslinking catalyst only works once the secondary catalyst activates it. That way, by choosing the amount of secondary catalyst one can choose the time at which the reaction starts, while still getting very fast reaction once it gets going)
The effective range (range at which it can still ensnare a victim reliably) of the goop will probably be limited to melee-short range, with lower medium range being the upper limit. It should start crosslinking once it's about 1m out of the spray, so a second or two after launch (this'll depend on the exit speed of the mix)
Secondly, in choosing the polymer, be sure to also look for something that can dissolve the crosslinked goop. Also look for something that can wash away the adhesive (hopefully without being extremely toxic).
(I'll look into the hardware once the chem mixture and such is done, m'kay?)
Post by: piecewise on May 06, 2014, 11:05:21 am
>You want the one they edited for tv? They're running it as part of a big Back patting propaganda campaign.
Alright, one problem with your goo: reaction temp change. Reaction can either be exothermic or endothermic, and considering the speed and change, it's probably gonna be pretty pronounced. So do you want the goo to get burning hot or frostbite cold?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 06, 2014, 11:33:44 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 06, 2014, 11:42:16 am
Sorry, only read back to my last post so I missed you.No probs, it happens.
>You want the one they edited for tv? They're running it as part of a big Back patting propaganda campaign.
Ask him to show me the edited version first. Then, if Steve has it, look at the actual raw footage. Compare them: what are the differences? What did the UWM edit, and think about why they would edit it in that way.
Quote
Alright, one problem with your goo: reaction temp change. Reaction can either be exothermic or endothermic, and considering the speed and change, it's probably gonna be pretty pronounced. So do you want the goo to get burning hot or frostbite cold?
I wasn't 101% sure on what it would be (I thought it'd be exothermic personally, because decreasing entropy has to be ofset), but some quick research showed this:
Quote from: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/468745/polymerization#ref182254
polymerization, any process in which relatively small molecules, called monomers, combine chemically to produce a very large chainlike or network molecule, called a polymer. The monomer molecules may be all alike, or they may represent two, three, or more different compounds. Usually at least 100 monomer molecules must be combined to make a product that has certain unique physical properties—such as elasticity, high tensile strength, or the ability to form fibres—that differentiate polymers from substances composed of smaller and simpler molecules; often, many thousands of monomer units are incorporated in a single molecule of a polymer. The formation of stable covalent chemical bonds between the monomers sets polymerization apart from other processes, such as crystallization, in which large numbers of molecules aggregate under the influence of weak intermolecular forces.
Two classes of polymerization usually are distinguished. In condensation polymerization, each step of the process is accompanied by formation of a molecule of some simple compound, often water. In addition polymerization, monomers react to form a polymer without the formation of by-products. Addition polymerizations usually are carried out in the presence of catalysts, which in certain cases exert control over structural details that have important effects on the properties of the polymer.
Linear polymers, which are composed of chainlike molecules, may be viscous liquids or solids with varying degrees of crystallinity; a number of them can be dissolved in certain liquids, and they soften or melt upon heating. Cross-linked polymers, in which the molecular structure is a network, are thermosetting resins (i.e., they form under the influence of heat but, once formed, do not melt or soften upon reheating) that do not dissolve in solvents. Both linear and cross-linked polymers can be made by either addition or condensation polymerization.
Quote from: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/468716/chemistry-of-industrial-polymers/76391/Ring-opening-metathesis-polymerization#ref608607
The addition polymerization reactions described above are usually exothermic—that is, they generate heat. Heat generation is seldom a problem in small-scale laboratory reactions, but on a large industrial scale it can be dangerous, since heat causes an increase in the reaction rate, and faster reactions in turn produce yet more heat. This phenomenon, called autoacceleration, can cause polymerization reactions to accelerate at explosive rates unless efficient means for heat dissipation are included in the design of the reactor.
Condensation polymerization, on the other hand, is endothermic—that is, the reaction requires an input of heat from an external source. In these cases the reactor must supply heat in order to maintain a practical reaction rate.
So, what do you think this particular reaction would be? Due to using a catalyst, I suspect it'd be addition polymerization, which would most likely be exothermic. Do you agree, or do you think it wouldn't work like this? Seeing as how we didn't even define the monomers in detail, a bit of educated guesswork is the best I can do for now really.
...Would it be possible to use these two types of polymerization to 'cancel out' the extremes? Basically, choose/engineer the polymers so that the straight (end to end) crosslinks are addition polymerization (so no by product, exothermic), but the 'sideways' crosslinks between these long strands are condensation polymerization (with by product and endothermic).
addition:
oooooo + oooooo = oooooo-oooooo
condensation:
oooooo-oooooo + oooooo-oooooo = oooooo-oooooo + byproduct (e.g. H2O, which would help further dissipate excess heat by vaporizing)
\ / / / /
oooooo-oooooo
Also, ninja'd by Sean.
EDIT: hmm, if the condensation doesn't require a catalyst, then it will probably start condensating while still in it's tank. Though that could be circumvented by saying there's a minimal temp needed before condensation polymerization occurs. So yeah, i think it comes down to how many/what kind of restrictions PW wants this to have.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 06, 2014, 02:33:50 pm
Not sure how much of an effect this would have. My chemistry courses didn't go into detail about that sort of specific detail.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 06, 2014, 02:51:55 pm
If it's endothermic, low temperatures will retard the reaction. If it's exothermic, high temperatures will do the same.
Not sure how much of an effect this would have. My chemistry courses didn't go into detail about that sort of specific detail.
Yes, I know this. But as I said, since we're dealing with hypothetical substances here, it's kinda hard to work out exact details.
Besides, if temp stays at moderate levels, I don' think it should be too much of a problem, not if the catalyst is good enough to at least drive that reaction at reasonable speeds.
also, it seems the Us army has worked on/is working on something like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_foam)
Also relevant. (http://defensetech.org/2006/03/07/sticky-foam-gets-serious/)
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 06, 2014, 03:23:37 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 07, 2014, 10:19:10 am
Would it provide protection against monorazor filaments? And be prohibitively expensive to make shields out of?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 07, 2014, 10:25:06 am
Hey piecewise, is vibranium a thing in ER? As in an instant shock dispersing meta-material.((Probably not against monorazors, at least not the literal monomolecular-edge blades. The razor-wire vibroblades that are colloquially called "monorazors", however might be in fact useless against such a material. But I'm guessing it's about as abundant as Marvelverse vibranium, otherwise it'd be standard issue for gauss round deflection and indeed many kinds of melee armor.))
Would it provide protection against monorazor filaments? And be prohibitively expensive to make shields out of?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 07, 2014, 10:32:54 am
You know, that near indestructible plate armor so cost ineffective you could buy an fullt customised avatar of war for the same price as it would take to armor your chestplate?
Post by: piecewise on May 07, 2014, 10:50:01 am
You could try to counteract it with another reaction, but thats gonna really slow down the reaction due to the temp difference retarding the reaction and the mixing making it harder for the chemicals to "Meet" each other in the fluid, if that makes sense.
Hey piecewise, is vibranium a thing in ER? As in an instant shock dispersing meta-material.Instant? Not possible. Very good at it? Possible but expensive. Standard ER protocol.
Would it provide protection against monorazor filaments? And be prohibitively expensive to make shields out of?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 07, 2014, 10:51:54 am
Im assuming that it would be similar to that... mithril? Plating one of the older characters invented.Vibranium was so rare that all the stuff on earth was enough for about one vibranium-alloy shield. Mithril isn't more common, at least not until electrolysis is figured out. (Tolkien originally based mithril on aluminum, IIRC.)
You know, that near indestructible plate armor so cost ineffective you could buy an fullt customised avatar of war for the same price as it would take to armor your chestplate?
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 07, 2014, 10:57:42 am
I really wish I had done better in the Anomalous Planetoid mission. Feels like there's so much more I could had brought back.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 07, 2014, 11:04:47 am
Silly GWG, mithril isnt a rare but naturally occuring element prized by short bearded fellows in a fantasy novel. Its an extremely expensive and difficult to produce synthetic meta-material invented by an inmate aboard a prison ship in a science fiction forum game.Im assuming that it would be similar to that... mithril? Plating one of the older characters invented.Vibranium was so rare that all the stuff on earth was enough for about one vibranium-alloy shield. Mithril isn't more common, at least not until electrolysis is figured out. (Tolkien originally based mithril on aluminum, IIRC.)
You know, that near indestructible plate armor so cost ineffective you could buy an fullt customised avatar of war for the same price as it would take to armor your chestplate?
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 07, 2014, 11:07:35 am
It wasn't invented by an inmate, as far as I remember. Some spaceships are coated with the stuff. Someone just asked about it before to one of the scientists at their kiosk.Silly GWG, mithril isnt a rare but naturally occuring element prized by short bearded fellows in a fantasy novel. Its an extremely expensive and difficult to produce synthetic meta-material invented by an inmate aboard a prison ship in a science fiction forum game.Im assuming that it would be similar to that... mithril? Plating one of the older characters invented.Vibranium was so rare that all the stuff on earth was enough for about one vibranium-alloy shield. Mithril isn't more common, at least not until electrolysis is figured out. (Tolkien originally based mithril on aluminum, IIRC.)
You know, that near indestructible plate armor so cost ineffective you could buy an fullt customised avatar of war for the same price as it would take to armor your chestplate?
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 07, 2014, 11:29:36 am
Full mythril is 30 tokens a plate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3987331#msg3987331
Search the on ship thread for Mythril. Make sure you search for Mythril with Y.
Post by: Xantalos on May 07, 2014, 11:37:27 am
There was enough to make a shield out of the stuff? That's not very rare compared to some RL metals.Im assuming that it would be similar to that... mithril? Plating one of the older characters invented.Vibranium was so rare that all the stuff on earth was enough for about one vibranium-alloy shield. Mithril isn't more common, at least not until electrolysis is figured out. (Tolkien originally based mithril on aluminum, IIRC.)
You know, that near indestructible plate armor so cost ineffective you could buy an fullt customised avatar of war for the same price as it would take to armor your chestplate?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 07, 2014, 11:41:15 am
Mixing a tiny amount of mythril in MK3 armour cost 10 tokens: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3988000;topicseen#msg3988000I stand corrected, it was invented by the science section.
Full mythril is 30 tokens a plate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3987331#msg3987331
Search the on ship thread for Mythril. Make sure you search for Mythril with Y.
In any case my point was that i was asking about super expensive meta-materials that mimic the properties of such mythical metals, not the mythical metals themselves. Because yay for science.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 07, 2014, 11:58:43 am
Mixing a tiny amount of mythril in MK3 armour cost 10 tokens: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3988000;topicseen#msg3988000News to me.
Full mythril is 30 tokens a plate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3987331#msg3987331
Search the on ship thread for Mythril. Make sure you search for Mythril with Y.
There was enough to make a shield out of the stuff? That's not very rare compared to some RL metals.It's quite rare compared to pretty much every material that exists outside a laboratory environment.
Post by: Xantalos on May 07, 2014, 11:59:56 am
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 07, 2014, 12:03:53 pm
Post by: Xantalos on May 07, 2014, 12:36:25 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 07, 2014, 12:38:32 pm
Francium has 14 naturally occurring atoms on the planet.I wonder who counted them all?
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 07, 2014, 12:41:06 pm
Francium has 14 naturally occurring atoms on the planet.I wonder who counted them all?
I did. Took ages, sorting through all those atoms by hand.
And then I had to do it all over again cause an intern spilled coffee over my reports.
Post by: Xantalos on May 07, 2014, 12:44:29 pm
Hell if I know. Who has time to document random things you read in a thing somewhere at some point that may or may not be true? :PFrancium has 14 naturally occurring atoms on the planet.I wonder who counted them all?
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 07, 2014, 02:14:54 pm
Quote
I was giving you the choice out of gameplay reasons, since it would probably be endothermic.I know it was for gameplay stuff, but I'm trying to get at least a semblance of believable chem for this.
Why do you think it should be endothermic, by the way? Any particular reason? Or just because you decided it should be condensation polymerization?
Quote
You could try to counteract it with another reaction, but thats gonna really slow down the reaction due to the temp difference retarding the reaction and the mixing making it harder for the chemicals to "Meet" each other in the fluid, if that makes sense.
If it's an endothermic reaction, then supplying heat should speed up the process, no? Why would the temp difference slow down the reaction?
How about this: we make it a condensation polymerization that gives of a bit of gaseous by-product (to help with the foaming).
Monomers are in solution A. In solution B, we add a chemical which reacts with something in A, this is exothermic. Thereby, if the concentrations are chosen good enough, once you mix A and B it'll take a short time before the exothermic reaction supplies enough heat for the endothermic polymerization to get going fast (so it doesn't start 'foaming' and expanding too fast). It doesn't really matter you need to mix them first, since heat is transferred relatively quickly, so once the initial mixing gives some heat and gets the initial crosslinking going, there will be equilibrium between the linking and expanding foam, and the exothermic 'jump-starter'. After jump-starting the linking, the secondary exothermic reaction (which will occur slower, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue) keeps the polymerization going, and keeps the temp of the whole thing at non-damaging levels.
If you really think it should have that high/low temp downside for gameplay reasons though, just say so, so we don't waste time on something you wouldn't allow anyway.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 07, 2014, 02:35:44 pm
That's more than 14 atoms. Either that or Captain 'merica's shield is so little vibranium it makes no difference.I don't know what to say about that first part. Yes, it is. Your research is Brownian in accuracy.
Obviously Cap's shield has a significant amount of vibranium in it.
The Xantalos Department of Making Up Numbers?Francium has 14 naturally occurring atoms on the planet.I wonder who counted them all?
As to how they actually figured it out, Francium is naturally formed only by radioactive decay. Figure out how much of the uranium ores containing francium there is and how fast they turn into Francium, then how long it takes them to turn into whatever they turn into.
Post by: Xantalos on May 07, 2014, 02:37:34 pm
Fun fact, tinnitus is great for concentration, especially while trying to figure out how to cook things. You should all try it.
No sarcasm here.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 12, 2014, 12:59:08 pm
Do ship sized automanipulators use some larger version of that battery?
Post by: piecewise on May 13, 2014, 10:22:49 am
Do person sized automanipulators use standard manipulator batteries?Well, sorta. The use more of the driving substance at least.
Do ship sized automanipulators use some larger version of that battery?
I feel like I answered these before for some reason...some sort of odd deja vu. Hmm...oh well. silly brain connections getting recursive on me.QuoteI was giving you the choice out of gameplay reasons, since it would probably be endothermic.I know it was for gameplay stuff, but I'm trying to get at least a semblance of believable chem for this.
Why do you think it should be endothermic, by the way? Any particular reason? Or just because you decided it should be condensation polymerization?QuoteYou could try to counteract it with another reaction, but thats gonna really slow down the reaction due to the temp difference retarding the reaction and the mixing making it harder for the chemicals to "Meet" each other in the fluid, if that makes sense.
If it's an endothermic reaction, then supplying heat should speed up the process, no? Why would the temp difference slow down the reaction?
How about this: we make it a condensation polymerization that gives of a bit of gaseous by-product (to help with the foaming).
Monomers are in solution A. In solution B, we add a chemical which reacts with something in A, this is exothermic. Thereby, if the concentrations are chosen good enough, once you mix A and B it'll take a short time before the exothermic reaction supplies enough heat for the endothermic polymerization to get going fast (so it doesn't start 'foaming' and expanding too fast). It doesn't really matter you need to mix them first, since heat is transferred relatively quickly, so once the initial mixing gives some heat and gets the initial crosslinking going, there will be equilibrium between the linking and expanding foam, and the exothermic 'jump-starter'. After jump-starting the linking, the secondary exothermic reaction (which will occur slower, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue) keeps the polymerization going, and keeps the temp of the whole thing at non-damaging levels.
If you really think it should have that high/low temp downside for gameplay reasons though, just say so, so we don't waste time on something you wouldn't allow anyway.
No reason really, beyond the fact that, as a general rule, the formation of bonds tends to take energy while the breaking of them tends to release it. That's why most epoxies and resins and similar catalyzed solidifying reactions release heat. Figured it would more then likely hold true here.
The problem would be supplying enough heat. True, it would speed the formation of bonds but too much energy could cause those bonds to break. I'm probably thinking of too great of temps though, never mind me.
That all seems fine to me, although "reaction supplies enough heat for the endothermic polymerization to get going fast" makes me wonder how this stuff would react in the open vacuum of space or on a very hot planet or something. But it's too early for me to even start considering that stuff. We'll just say that will work.
Post by: syvarris on May 13, 2014, 12:05:18 pm
Why do the normal manipulator batteries output such a strong electrical charge?
Post by: piecewise on May 14, 2014, 08:59:01 am
Do automanipulators use up that material they require to function? Must they be reloaded?Nah. They're self sustaining at that size.
Why do the normal manipulator batteries output such a strong electrical charge?
Who said they do?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 14, 2014, 09:04:22 am
If i were to somehow get my hands on that eternally burning piece of rebar that came into existence during the gratesplosion...
And if i somehow invented or discovered an infinite water source or a highly efficient steam re-condenser...
Could i make a steam turbine for jacks APC that would replace its need for fuel?
Post by: NAV on May 14, 2014, 09:14:11 am
Hey piecewise,Good luck, it's surrounded by a impenetrable forcefield.
If i were to somehow get my hands on that eternally burning piece of rebar that came into existence during the gratesplosion...
And if i somehow invented or discovered an infinite water source or a highly efficient steam re-condenser...
Could i make a steam turbine for jacks APC that would replace its need for fuel?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 14, 2014, 09:19:39 am
I dont need to the water to get in, i just need the heat to get out.Hey piecewise,Good luck, it's surrounded by a impenetrable forcefield.
If i were to somehow get my hands on that eternally burning piece of rebar that came into existence during the gratesplosion...
And if i somehow invented or discovered an infinite water source or a highly efficient steam re-condenser...
Could i make a steam turbine for jacks APC that would replace its need for fuel?
In any case we know light can escape, so we can put that sucker in a mini dyson sphere at least.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 14, 2014, 09:23:23 am
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2014, 09:39:21 am
I'm looking to make a suit of personal armor with similar internals to a MKIII suit (MKII suit under a powered exo). However, I want no rockets or "wings", and want to use those weight savings to layer on whatever metal/material would commonly be used for armor in the ER universe (which would be steel, I guess). What sort of protection would this suit provide, approx. how many tokens would it take to make, and how difficult would it be to manufacture?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 14, 2014, 09:51:44 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 14, 2014, 09:52:59 am
Alright, how difficult is something like this?
I'm looking to make a suit of personal armor with similar internals to a MKIII suit (MKII suit under a powered exo). However, I want no rockets or "wings", and want to use those weight savings to layer on whatever metal/material would commonly be used for armor in the ER universe (which would be steel, I guess). What sort of protection would this suit provide, approx. how many tokens would it take to make, and how difficult would it be to manufacture?
Basically, a Mk. III without the rocket pods but with some armor?
Go for battlesuit plate, it's very cost effective. Milno did the same as you are doing before, but he kept his rocket pods. Maybe try to find where he did that with a thread search, or ask caellath himself.
Also, ninja'd. Hard.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 14, 2014, 09:59:27 am
You'd think an eternal steam engine would be slightly inferior to a vaguely nuclear standard power generator. At least in power output, if not in longevity.
Yeah but a self sustaining steam engine translates into mechanical force better/faster, and looks cooler, and doesnt irradiate the crap out of you when someone shoots the reactor, and is environmentally friendly, and has lots of shiny pipes, and can use steam pressure to fire harpoons, and is awesome, and is cheaper, and can propel you in a vacuum, and is retro, and is train-like, and im gonna stop now...
I think the eternal steam engine when considered in a power plant scenario might be able to pump out more juice then its nuclear counterpart at the same scale, i mean steam engines dont need all the safety devices, decontamination rooms, computer consoles, radiation shielding or bigass concrete chimneys that are integral to safe operation and maintenance of a nuclear reactor of that magnitude.
Post by: NAV on May 14, 2014, 10:26:14 am
And don't bother modifying a mk3 to be less mobile and better armoured. Just buy a mining exosuit, like Auron has. It's pretty much what you're looking for.
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2014, 10:30:53 am
Post by: Toaster on May 14, 2014, 10:33:30 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 14, 2014, 10:41:05 am
I actually have a spare civilian exosuit in my possession, although its from a shipyard not a mine so it may not be as armored...
I suppose i could hold onto it for you if it meets your standards, it will probably only resell for 3 or 4 tokens and im pretty sure the mk II costs 5 so youd be looking at 8-9 tokens for both which equates to a standard unarmored exosuit.
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2014, 10:48:04 am
And it just might be Unholy! (UP? Can I call you UP?) . I'm just looking for something with MKII capabilities to patch up my squishy bits, and an exo to support some armor plating that will help me not get mangled in the first place. And preferably on the cheaper side, I don't need something that's crazy over-designed right now. Just something basic.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 14, 2014, 11:24:42 am
I was meaning that you could buy the mk II for the trauma mitigation and my civvy exosuit for the stat boost's/armor and that it would come out as being the same price as buying a standard exosuit but you would have both of the benefits.
And yeah, feel free to just call me unholy, UP or U_P, everyone else does. :P
Post by: Caellath on May 14, 2014, 12:40:52 pm
I think you can get enough to completely armor up a Mk3 for some 8 token.
Around 20 tokens and you lose the exoskeleton's strength bonus due to overweight. Let me see... Backplate three tokens, chestplate three tokens, pelvic plate two tokens, helmet one, pauldrons two, shin pads one each, upper legs three, forearm plates one, knuckles one token for both hands, knee guards one for both knees, upper arms one each. I forget how much it cost to armor the rocket pods, but it was probably two or three token. I think neck armor was originally two tokens, but I added mythril reinforcement to both neck and head armor and I forget how much that was. Thomas (Spinal_Taper's character) bought half-thickness "milnoplate" for half the price of my purchases, so that's possible too.
You're looking at one (?) layer of battlesuit plate, which is able to protect you fairly well from projectile (gauss rounds even) and laser attacks while the civic defender's longcoat, for example, only provides good protection against kinetic weaponry. That is the kind of armor I use on Milno's MkIII, though I only bought chest, back, pelvis, helmet and neck armor in order to keep the movement bonus and because personal armor's very expensive.
Rockets that give you a max speed of 500mph, a movement bonus and have high chances of saving your ass in case they don't explode violently due to damage are actually one of the MkIII's biggest boons. If your objective is not getting mangled while remaining roughly man-sized, though, I think you'll have to run a Tinker search for the types of armor that aren't in the Armory.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 14, 2014, 12:42:27 pm
Also, you probably won't be able to afford a new suit for your very first mission. Maybe Miya could build you a shield or something though.
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
@hapah: if you want pw to see something, like questions or actions, you might want to bold it. Or at least put it in a seperate paragraph. He might miss it otherwise.Oh no, certainly not first mission. Maybe not even second, dunno what pay typically is and how much this thing is going to cost in the end. Just trying to think ahead and get all my ducks in a row, see what could work and what isn't feasible while I still have downtime.
Also, you probably won't be able to afford a new suit for your very first mission. Maybe Miya could build you a shield or something though.
-stuff-That's the goal I have in mind, yes. It's looking like it might be a more expensive affair than I thought!
If your objective is not getting mangled while remaining roughly man-sized, though, I think you'll have to run a Tinker search for the types of armor that aren't in the Armory.
Post by: syvarris on May 14, 2014, 01:07:08 pm
Do automanipulators use up that material they require to function? Must they be reloaded?Nah. They're self sustaining at that size.
Why do the normal manipulator batteries output such a strong electrical charge?
Who said they do?
You, nearly two years ago. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3341699#msg3341699)
"ALL field manipulator batteries: 4 TPU"
Note that laser rifle batteries output the same amount, although we actually know how long they can supply that. Field manip batteries just give four zaps of indeterminate length, for all we know.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 14, 2014, 01:17:13 pm
Huh. That's different.I think you can get enough to completely armor up a Mk3 for some 8 token.
Around 20 tokens and you lose the exoskeleton's strength bonus due to overweight.
Well, that's personal armor for you.
I think we're going to need some suits of this kind into mass production at some point though. Avatars are too much of a commitment, Battlesuits are too large for everyday use, and MkIIIs are too flimsy.
Dammit, I want to tinker. :P
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2014, 01:18:36 pm
Post by: Kriellya on May 14, 2014, 01:28:57 pm
Yeah, I was honestly kinda surprised that the suit of armor I'm looking to make isn't already a "thing". You'd figure not-dying would be pretty high up on people's priority list, but I guess not!
When you've seen what we've seen XD
It's not that not dying isn't a priority. It's that several of us have come to the conclusion, based on what we usually are up against, that it's better to not be hit at all and have END for when we do get hit than to rely on armor, at least until you're up to the level of a battle suit or avatar of war. The sort of armor you can put on a MK X suit doesn't do much except change it from behaving like tissue paper to behaving like a tin can: good enough for really, really low caliber, but it's just going to crush under most of what we see.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 14, 2014, 01:35:26 pm
So far I have re-formulated these plans for the MCS. It consists of:
> Base suit: mostly a MkIII stripped of its rocket pods, but fitted with an assortment of hardpoints and some advanced software. Cheaper than a MkIII to allow a lower entry cost.
> Armor components: Easily applied armor sets of different types, standardized so that no DIY work is necessary. Probably some variations of Light/Heavy/Absorbent/Reactive armor.
> Torso packs: Propulsion and mission packs, either providing a manner of flight capability or some form of dedicated combat role. "Propulsion" are Rocket and Aerial flight so far. "Mission" is Melee combat, Ranged combat, Artillery, and Support.
- Rocket - Standard MkIII rocket pods, fuel cell to convert rocket fuel into power.
- Aerial - Ducted turbofan pylons, generator to power them
- Melee combat - Forearm-mounted powered impact hammers, wide enough to act as shields, kinamp-tipped. Add-on upper exoskeleton to handle the force of using the impact hammers, plus powerplant.
- Ranged combat - Two articulate synthoid arms, each holding a standard weapon, mounted behind the back. Pair of smaller articulate arms to supplement reloading. Support AI core to handle targeting of the extra weapons.
- Artillery - Two pods for holding large weapons mounted behind the back, plus powerplant to supply power and an upper exoskeletal reinforcement to handle the weight. Pods are body-length, and can be configured to fire either over the shoulder or under the arm. Support AI core to handle targeting with two weapons at once. Bracing supports optional.
- Support - An assortment of systems, including powerful comms array, medical systems, repair materials, survival gear, and a complement of versatile drones that can be used for combat, recon, comms relay, and beyond-LOS targeting.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 14, 2014, 05:11:00 pm
Post by: piecewise on May 15, 2014, 02:31:37 pm
Hey piecewise,thermocouples bro.
If i were to somehow get my hands on that eternally burning piece of rebar that came into existence during the gratesplosion...
And if i somehow invented or discovered an infinite water source or a highly efficient steam re-condenser...
Could i make a steam turbine for jacks APC that would replace its need for fuel?
Post by: tryrar on May 15, 2014, 03:48:18 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 15, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 15, 2014, 04:06:34 pm
Deadlier? You should ask Simus about the grenades she's made. I'm not sure you could get much deadlier than hers without a nuclear grenade.FOOF. Or Antimatter. Or MIRV grenades. Or something.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 15, 2014, 04:09:22 pm
Deadlier? You should ask Simus about the grenades she's made. I'm not sure you could get much deadlier than hers without a nuclear grenade.
Maybe, but some nades could be better in certain situations than the ones we currently have.
For example, once I continue working on the sticky goop I'll try to design a grenade version that's compatible with existing launchers, to deal with groups of civvies from a distance (since the normal goop thrower won't have a lot of range).
Post by: syvarris on May 15, 2014, 05:21:49 pm
Deadlier? You should ask Simus about the grenades she's made. I'm not sure you could get much deadlier than hers without a nuclear grenade.FOOF. Or Antimatter. Or MIRV grenades. Or something.
FOOF: Welp, there's much less data on it, but I still doubt it has anything on ClF3. Plus, from what I can tell, it's even more difficult to contain and keep.
Antimatter: Just a more difficult way to get the same result as nuclear, I would think. Not to mention that it will react much worse if you damage the containment.
MIRV:Doesn't a MIRV reduce the overall power of the weapon in exchange for area-of-effect? Why would you do that to a handheld grenade launcher?
Nuclear: This would be more powerful than any of Simus' current grenade types, yes. But I ask you this: Why would you want to fire a nuclear device out of a handheld grenade launcher? Buying an eigth kiloton charge then cuddling it every night would be a cheaper and more badass way to go.
...Then again, they are pretty idiot proof- one person attempted to mate with one, and lived IIRC.
Post by: tryrar on May 15, 2014, 05:45:58 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on May 15, 2014, 05:47:17 pm
So, for my first project, I wanted to make a deadlier grenade for the launcher I'm getting. First off, Michael pulls up all info on all standard grenade launchers and Simus's custom job(if that isn't encrypted).
Sorry, encrypted.
And I used Chlorine Trifluoride. That stuff's nasty. It's also not going to be available for public use without express permission. That's just one of three, though - the High-EX is stuffed with AsterEX, and is powerful enough to take out the entire front of a good-sized building.
Post by: tryrar on May 15, 2014, 05:56:50 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on May 15, 2014, 06:11:06 pm
Well, my idea was using a kinetic amp to vastly boost the power of the blast, so I guess I don't have to worry then :P
That's been Anton's department for quite a while. No grenades, but at least 1 missile and a couple other ideas.
Post by: Xantalos on May 15, 2014, 06:12:52 pm
Post by: tryrar on May 15, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on May 15, 2014, 06:31:36 pm
....my OTHER idea was seeing if I could possibly cause manip overloads on command, stuff that into a grenade casing, and have it set off on impact
People have tried the before too.
PW says the manip must have a human user at time of use, or somesuch. No remote overloads.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 15, 2014, 06:34:52 pm
Post by: syvarris on May 15, 2014, 07:00:21 pm
Well, in any case, it's still a terrible and unreliable idea. A high-yield nuclear device is more reliable, and probably cheaper. Easier too.
Also, Piecewise, why do the normal manipulator batteries output such a strong electrical charge?
Who said they do?
You, nearly two years ago. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3341699#msg3341699)
"ALL field manipulator batteries: 4 TPU"
Note that laser rifle batteries output the same amount, although we actually know how long they can supply that. Field manip batteries just give four zaps of indeterminate length, for all we know.
Post by: Kriellya on May 15, 2014, 07:28:22 pm
....my OTHER idea was seeing if I could possibly cause manip overloads on command, stuff that into a grenade casing, and have it set off on impact
People have tried the before too.
PW says the manip must have a human user at time of use, or somesuch. No remote overloads.
Automanip.
Yes, which isn't supposed to tell you 'clearly, we can make a grenade that overloads with an auto-manip'. It's supposed to make you go 'wait, what *ARE* auto-manips?'
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 15, 2014, 07:54:15 pm
They stuff a tiny human inside it to do the calculations. It's like the Mechanical Turk, but with futuristic physics-bending space calculators.....my OTHER idea was seeing if I could possibly cause manip overloads on command, stuff that into a grenade casing, and have it set off on impact
People have tried the before too.
PW says the manip must have a human user at time of use, or somesuch. No remote overloads.Automanip.
Yes, which isn't supposed to tell you 'clearly, we can make a grenade that overloads with an auto-manip'. It's supposed to make you go 'wait, what *ARE* auto-manips?'
Post by: piecewise on May 15, 2014, 09:22:42 pm
They stuff a tiny human inside it to do the calculations. It's like the Mechanical Turk, but with futuristic physics-bending space calculators.....my OTHER idea was seeing if I could possibly cause manip overloads on command, stuff that into a grenade casing, and have it set off on impact
People have tried the before too.
PW says the manip must have a human user at time of use, or somesuch. No remote overloads.Automanip.
Yes, which isn't supposed to tell you 'clearly, we can make a grenade that overloads with an auto-manip'. It's supposed to make you go 'wait, what *ARE* auto-manips?'
That would be silly.
We don't put the entire human in there.
Post by: tryrar on May 15, 2014, 09:46:00 pm
They stuff a tiny human inside it to do the calculations. It's like the Mechanical Turk, but with futuristic physics-bending space calculators.....my OTHER idea was seeing if I could possibly cause manip overloads on command, stuff that into a grenade casing, and have it set off on impact
People have tried the before too.
PW says the manip must have a human user at time of use, or somesuch. No remote overloads.Automanip.
Yes, which isn't supposed to tell you 'clearly, we can make a grenade that overloads with an auto-manip'. It's supposed to make you go 'wait, what *ARE* auto-manips?'
That would be silly.
We don't put the entire human in there.
.....you ARE joking right?
No what am I saying, of course you aren't >_>
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 15, 2014, 11:28:41 pm
Post by: tryrar on May 16, 2014, 06:08:23 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 16, 2014, 06:24:45 am
Though if you want something cheaper or more powerful or more unconventional, like a custom built fusion instigator or a nuke rocket or a kinetic amp tipped mortar or a crossbow that shoots genades of Miyamoto's Bubbly Foam of Not Hurting, you can always try building that.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 16, 2014, 06:30:27 am
Anything conventional, yes. Simus has made a very good grenade launcher, which is probably all one needs.
Though if you want something cheaper or more powerful or more unconventional, like a custom built fusion instigator or a nuke rocket or a kinetic amp tipped mortar or a crossbow that shoots genades of Miyamoto's Bubbly Foam of Not Hurting, you can always try building that.
My intention is to create foam nades that are compatible with existing nade launchers, to streamline hardware requirements.
Post by: piecewise on May 16, 2014, 10:09:58 am
So, for my first project, I wanted to make a deadlier grenade for the launcher I'm getting. First off, Michael pulls up all info on all standard grenade launchers and Simus's custom job(if that isn't encrypted).Encrypted. But I assume you've learned what you needed from all the posts after yours.
...I was going to say automanips don't overload, but then again Steve did warn us of a possible overload in the ship's coilgun automanip, didn't he?eh....well, it's a bit spoilery but the electricity from those is from a normal battery. It's used for the basic electronics and screen of the manipulator, as well as to power a start up sequence. Like a Catalyst.
Well, in any case, it's still a terrible and unreliable idea. A high-yield nuclear device is more reliable, and probably cheaper. Easier too.
Also, Piecewise, why do the normal manipulator batteries output such a strong electrical charge?Who said they do?
You, nearly two years ago. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108083.msg3341699#msg3341699)
"ALL field manipulator batteries: 4 TPU"
Note that laser rifle batteries output the same amount, although we actually know how long they can supply that. Field manip batteries just give four zaps of indeterminate length, for all we know.
Post by: Kriellya on May 16, 2014, 09:27:50 pm
Basic Goal: Use the MKIII and AUX skill to aid in aiming CON weapons
Basic Features: After calibrating with a CON weapon (likely by firing the weapon a few times at a target), displays an accurate targeting reticule for that weapon. Possibly basic range-finding
Passive? Gives a sort of weak failure protection (can still roll poorly and miss, but cannot cause friendly fire in most cases. As in, I could still shoot someone behind or in front of my target, but not someone to my left)
Advanced Features: After calibration, User can select a target. The program will then use the MKIII Exoskeleton to aim and steady the weapon at the target.
Activated AUX roll to use, gives some bonus to firing. (I can think of a lot of applicable bonus's, not sure which one you'd go for. Range bonus, aiming bonus, general CON bonus, dynamic bonus, AUX-replace-CON, etc. Not sure which one or at what power you feel is balanced.)
Main (intended) Downside: Requires per-weapon calibration to function. The program will not work immediately with any CON weapon, it needs to be calibrated for a specific weapon. Maybe you have different ideas about the calibration, PW, my thought was that it would require firing the weapon a few times at a few different ranges, but could potentially involve studying the weapon carefully and manually calibrating the system. (Handi + Aux roll? Or Con + Aux?) It could also be limited in how many weapons it can be calibrated for at once
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 18, 2014, 07:52:23 am
(Doing it like this so that one could have 1 launcher for multiple kinds of ammo).
In fact, try to change the namite thrower so that it can easily accept different kinds of containers.
If needed, ask Pancaek for help and/or permission.
Post by: Pancaek on May 18, 2014, 08:16:01 am
Now that the chem mix is ok, try to modify the namite launcher to also accept sticky foam canisters. The sticky foam canisters would hold both solutions, in separate compartments. They mix inside the tubing, start expanding a few meters out of the nozzle.regardless of wether it actually needed or not, full permission is granted
(Doing it like this so that one could have 1 launcher for multiple kinds of ammo).
In fact, try to change the namite thrower so that it can easily accept different kinds of containers.
If needed, ask Pancaek for help and/or permission.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 18, 2014, 08:17:13 am
Three automanipulators: 2 of the vector(or kinetic, whichever is best) kind and one of the electctromagnetic kind.
The two vector manipulators are positioned in an armoured sphere and can move to point anywhere inside it.
It works like this: 1 vector automanip speeds you up to as fast as possible (a fraction of c) and the other applies the same effect in the opposite direction. The electromangetic automanip nullifies all outside electrical and magnetic forces in the area the user occupies from the time the first vector automanip is activated, to the time the second is activated (or a set amount of time if variable operation time is not possible). Since that time should be presumably short, it should have little adverse effects for the user.
This should allow someone to be transported almost instantaneously between two locations, even through walls, provided the material the wall is made of isn't very dense (since atoms are mostly empty space and without electrical forces there's only the weak and strong nuclear forces that can have any sort of effect). The distance moved can be controlled by the delay between activation of the second automanip. It can also be used to alter one's speed by positioning the two vector automanipulators at an angle.
Is this possible? If yes, cost and danger of operation?
I'm willing to explain further or make a small drawing of how it would work if necessary.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 18, 2014, 08:39:24 am
Post by: syvarris on May 18, 2014, 08:48:26 am
Also, gravity works harder on the atoms in your feet than in your head, so some of your atoms are going to drift simply because of that. It may be minor, but having your atoms move any real distance in relation to others is probably really bad. Another problem is that there's a lot of atoms just floating around, even in air, and suddenly having a bunch of *new* atoms all with electrical repulsion of their own in their everywhere is probably going to be quite explosive. You would have to either phase into a vacuum, or remove the atoms at your arrival point.
Lastly, those automanips are going to be very big and expensive. Yes, they'll be accelerating particles that are effectively in a vacuum, so there will be no friction, but they're still making a lot of mass go at a high speed. Unless you mean "Fraction of c" like "My car technically moves at a fraction of c!"
PREPOSTEDIT: Actually, isn't 'heat' just atoms vibrating really fast? That would mean the moment you release the electrical bonds, you would scatter off in every direction at already massive speeds. You would have to cool yourself to absolute zero first, and even then I'm not sure if atoms stop vibrating. My knowledge of atomic physics is insufficient to really know.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 18, 2014, 08:50:57 am
Post by: syvarris on May 18, 2014, 09:09:02 am
I guess you can probably circumvent it using automanips even if there is some rule though.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 18, 2014, 10:28:08 am
Space magic might subvert that, I guess, but it's probably still subject to Heisenberg uncertainty.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 18, 2014, 11:28:02 am
Post by: piecewise on May 19, 2014, 09:21:15 am
Start writing a new program for the MKIII, called the Aim-BotSo basically functionally like unholy's hardpoint except using the MKIII exoskeleton?
Basic Goal: Use the MKIII and AUX skill to aid in aiming CON weapons
Basic Features: After calibrating with a CON weapon (likely by firing the weapon a few times at a target), displays an accurate targeting reticule for that weapon. Possibly basic range-finding
Passive? Gives a sort of weak failure protection (can still roll poorly and miss, but cannot cause friendly fire in most cases. As in, I could still shoot someone behind or in front of my target, but not someone to my left)
Advanced Features: After calibration, User can select a target. The program will then use the MKIII Exoskeleton to aim and steady the weapon at the target.
Activated AUX roll to use, gives some bonus to firing. (I can think of a lot of applicable bonus's, not sure which one you'd go for. Range bonus, aiming bonus, general CON bonus, dynamic bonus, AUX-replace-CON, etc. Not sure which one or at what power you feel is balanced.)
Main (intended) Downside: Requires per-weapon calibration to function. The program will not work immediately with any CON weapon, it needs to be calibrated for a specific weapon. Maybe you have different ideas about the calibration, PW, my thought was that it would require firing the weapon a few times at a few different ranges, but could potentially involve studying the weapon carefully and manually calibrating the system. (Handi + Aux roll? Or Con + Aux?) It could also be limited in how many weapons it can be calibrated for at once
Now that the chem mix is ok, try to modify the namite launcher to also accept sticky foam canisters. The sticky foam canisters would hold both solutions, in separate compartments. They mix inside a small mixing chamber in the container, start expanding a few meters out of the nozzle.Exactly how does the namite thrower work now? How does it throw it's payload? Is it the same as a flamethrower which has pressurized tanks of the substance? Since I don't think that will work for the foam...At least I don't think so...Hmm.
(Doing it like this so that one could have 1 launcher for multiple kinds of ammo).
In fact, try to change the namite thrower so that it can easily accept different kinds of containers.
If needed, ask Pancaek for help and/or permission.
Translocator/Blink module:Can I get a picture? It sounds interesting although I can basically already tell you it is gonna be very very costly.
Three automanipulators: 2 of the vector(or kinetic, whichever is best) kind and one of the electctromagnetic kind.
The two vector manipulators are positioned in an armoured sphere and can move to point anywhere inside it.
It works like this: 1 vector automanip speeds you up to as fast as possible (a fraction of c) and the other applies the same effect in the opposite direction. The electromangetic automanip nullifies all outside electrical and magnetic forces in the area the user occupies from the time the first vector automanip is activated, to the time the second is activated (or a set amount of time if variable operation time is not possible). Since that time should be presumably short, it should have little adverse effects for the user.
This should allow someone to be transported almost instantaneously between two locations, even through walls, provided the material the wall is made of isn't very dense (since atoms are mostly empty space and without electrical forces there's only the weak and strong nuclear forces that can have any sort of effect). The distance moved can be controlled by the delay between activation of the second automanip. It can also be used to alter one's speed by positioning the two vector automanipulators at an angle.
Is this possible? If yes, cost and danger of operation?
I'm willing to explain further or make a small drawing of how it would work if necessary.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 19, 2014, 09:36:12 am
Quote
Exactly how does the namite thrower work now? How does it throw it's payload? Is it the same as a flamethrower which has pressurized tanks of the substance? Since I don't think that will work for the foam...At least I don't think so...Hmm.
Yes, as far as I'm aware it works like a flamethrower. Why would that not work for the foam? Remember, until it start crosslinking it's just a fluid, and it only really gets going once it's a few meters or so outside the nozzle.
Also, make sure the thrower is calibrated to empty it's tubing with each shot, to prevent foam clogging it.
Post by: NAV on May 19, 2014, 09:41:43 am
2 part. In front, there will be a saboted steel flechette designed to pierce through light armour.
Behind that, there will be a Steel canister of maldavian mind rot. The canister will be designed to break open upon impact, getting several drops of mind rot in the wound.
This should be cheap, because mind rot is free at the armoury. It sould be highly effective against organic targets, because a single shot anywhere in the body will instantly incapacitate them.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 19, 2014, 09:48:17 am
New gauss ammo type.Not to undermine the effectiveness of the proposed round, but I see a sort of a problem. Namely, a regular gauss rifle shot anywhere to the body should already quite severely incapacitate the target if it penetrates. It might be more useful for the civilian gauss rifles though, since those have damage more resembling that of conventional firearms.
2 part. In front, there will be a saboted steel flechette designed to pierce through light armour.
Behind that, there will be a Steel canister of maldavian mind rot. The canister will be designed to break open upon impact, getting several drops of mind rot in the wound.
This should be cheap, because mind rot is free at the armoury. It sould be highly effective against organic targets, because a single shot anywhere in the body will instantly incapacitate them.
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2014, 09:48:41 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 19, 2014, 09:50:51 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 19, 2014, 09:57:59 am
Step 1: invent gauss tranquilizer darts.
Step 2: distill magic space pills in tranquilizer fluid.
Step 3: shoot someone.
Step 4: laugh at sleeping turkey fish man.
Step 5: loot all the things
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2014, 10:03:00 am
(And if it's suited it's probably not civilian)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 19, 2014, 10:42:20 am
Of course, it's going to be one of those "potentially nonlethal" weapons again...
Post by: Kriellya on May 19, 2014, 01:58:26 pm
So basically functionally like unholy's hardpoint except using the MKIII exoskeleton?
Yes, essentially. Just wanted to give you room to use a different bonus if you so desired.
(( Personally, I think the hard-point being straight CON to AUX is a bit... I don't know, feels a little unbalanced? Maybe it's just particularly unbalanced for us Fleshtechs, who would otherwise have an extra -1 in CON, meaning CON to AUX is essentially a gain of over 18 points in CON. I guess you feel the inflexibility of having to swap out the weapon manually and it being a worthless brick if the hardpoint is disabled is sufficient downside? ))
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2014, 02:07:57 pm
Post by: Kriellya on May 19, 2014, 02:30:37 pm
Wouldn't it also mean you can't swap it mid-mission?
(( You could, but I imagine it would require a handi roll and probably some help, since you probably can't access it with both hands. Conceivably, if it is a more flexibly designed system, there's actually an eject button that would let you take a turn to disconnect and reconnect without a roll, but you can still only have one weapon on the hardpoint, and switching in battle is likely dangerous. That's just the only downside I see, which seems minor when you consider how much benefit Fleshtechs get from it :P ))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 19, 2014, 02:51:13 pm
I'd imagine you'd get a penalty to Aux and Handi with that thing attached. Forget weight, how are you going to manipulate a keyboard with a three-foot metal brick strapped to your forearm?Wouldn't it also mean you can't swap it mid-mission?
(( You could, but I imagine it would require a handi roll and probably some help, since you probably can't access it with both hands. Conceivably, if it is a more flexibly designed system, there's actually an eject button that would let you take a turn to disconnect and reconnect without a roll, but you can still only have one weapon on the hardpoint, and switching in battle is likely dangerous. That's just the only downside I see, which seems minor when you consider how much benefit Fleshtechs get from it :P ))
Post by: syvarris on May 19, 2014, 03:40:24 pm
I'd imagine you'd get a penalty to Aux and Handi with that thing attached. Forget weight, how are you going to manipulate a keyboard with a three-foot metal brick strapped to your forearm?Wouldn't it also mean you can't swap it mid-mission?
(( You could, but I imagine it would require a handi roll and probably some help, since you probably can't access it with both hands. Conceivably, if it is a more flexibly designed system, there's actually an eject button that would let you take a turn to disconnect and reconnect without a roll, but you can still only have one weapon on the hardpoint, and switching in battle is likely dangerous. That's just the only downside I see, which seems minor when you consider how much benefit Fleshtechs get from it :P ))
If you're a robot you can send texts with your mind at the speed of thought. And as Kri is pointing out, you don't need a three-foot brick attached to your arm- just an exoskeleton or robobody.
Frankly, Saint was created with the plan of using AUX to devalue all other stats. I'm am flatly amazed at the fact PW is basically saying "yeah sure" to stuff like Kri's action. I've been figuring he'd go "Well, makes some sense, but it's completely unbalanced so no.", so I've pretty much been trying to tip-toe into it sideways.
But seriously. I already have a program that entirely devalues stats for melee combat. Apparently it's easy to make a con devaluer. Saint effectively has a +2 to more stats than most people, and will only need a single decomp. That's more OP than I ever thought I'd be allowed to do.
Post by: Kriellya on May 19, 2014, 03:48:48 pm
It also wouldn't be a concern with my program, since it isn't welded to my hand or anything. Anything that nerfs competing systems :P
He's made it pretty clear that there's no getting around Uncon on manips, though potentially you could bypass other things (it seems that you should be able to arm nukes with AUX, for example :P ), and exo is probably just beyond the computer capability to understand (assuming there aren't some Exo parts mixed into it, in which case the computer itself is probably beyond *our* ability to understand it)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 19, 2014, 04:03:05 pm
But seriously. I already have a program that entirely devalues stats for melee combat. Apparently it's easy to make a con devaluer. Saint effectively has a +2 to more stats than most people, and will only need a single decomp. That's more OP than I ever thought I'd be allowed to do.That still leaves a gaping weakspot the size of a, well, the whole suit. All somebody needs to do is scramble your suit's programming.
That's not to mention that you're only increasing the numbers on your stats. Your suit is still only as strong as what it's made of, and a good enough opponent - which having such abilities invites the GM to toss at you - will be able to easily kill you in a few good hits. As soon as your suit is damaged, all your advantage evaporates.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 19, 2014, 04:15:35 pm
I think the main thing is that pw would allow it, but charge tokens for it. So it's more or less balanced, in a way, since tokens are the limiting factor.
Also note that pw hasn't said yes to kri's plan yet.
Post by: Kriellya on May 19, 2014, 05:08:18 pm
You guys are all chumps :P Back when I made Miyamoto and gave him his aux bonus, I had planned for it to be his main 'support skill' and then use tokens to turn con rolls into aux ones, as a backup for when I ran out of mindpoints for manips. Haven't gotten around to that due to the way things went (needed tokens for other stuff).
I think the main thing is that pw would allow it, but charge tokens for it. So it's more or less balanced, in a way, since tokens are the limiting factor.
Also note that pw hasn't said yes to kri's plan yet.
No, but he didn't give an outright no, and it's *going* to take an Aux roll to build it :P
Post by: syvarris on May 19, 2014, 07:50:53 pm
But seriously. I already have a program that entirely devalues stats for melee combat. Apparently it's easy to make a con devaluer. Saint effectively has a +2 to more stats than most people, and will only need a single decomp. That's more OP than I ever thought I'd be allowed to do.That still leaves a gaping weakspot the size of a, well, the whole suit. All somebody needs to do is scramble your suit's programming.
That's not to mention that you're only increasing the numbers on your stats. Your suit is still only as strong as what it's made of, and a good enough opponent - which having such abilities invites the GM to toss at you - will be able to easily kill you in a few good hits. As soon as your suit is damaged, all your advantage evaporates.
...What are you talking about? I'm talking about programming my physical body. Because it's robotic. Anyone in a robobody is at least as vulnerable to being hacked, because I have a high AUX bonus and can set up some level of defense. Beyond that, I plan on gaining points in Exo too, and fighting through my allies. Being able to use my own body as a weapon with AUX is only icing, you realize.
And yes, being strong and effective is an invitation for the GM to try and kill you. Even if you get strong legitimately. I'm not saying I'm invincible (In fact, it's still an inferior strategy to space wizards), I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.
Post by: Toaster on May 19, 2014, 09:18:06 pm
I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.
Lars fights by will of the gods! He's more like a Paladin, really... though he's about to take a level in Psionicist.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 19, 2014, 09:40:10 pm
I hope you like big posts...
Can I get a picture? It sounds interesting although I can basically already tell you it is gonna be very very costly.Eh, token cost doesn't matter, I'm just doing this fore fun. Although there are some serious modifications I want to consider... And this does mean I'm wasting my time...
hmmm...
Oh well, fun comes first! Plus, if this works, it could get used in a covert op or maybe in a spaceship.
So, the simple part first:
The system comes with a suit, either a modified exoskeleton/MK3 or a custom built suit if necessary. It probably won't be necessary.
It will be good if the suit has flight capabilities since the when activated the system might damage the user's surroundings if automanipulators can't be set to only affect the user.
Let's assume this is the suit:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It should have a small port so that its insides can be checked, repaired and replaced as necessary without the entire system having to be disassembled.
The system can be manually programmed with the relative coordinates. It can also be controlled via a HUD, using a rangefinder to compute the distance. Finally, it can use a combination of the two systems (for example, looking where you want to move towards, setting the distance and engaging the system). It can also be allowed to be controlled remotely, but that function should be very well protected, perhaps with a physical switch on top of normal computer security, so that it cannot be easily used by the enemy or accidentally activated by AUX overshoots of teammates.
It doesn't need much armour, just enough to slow any debris down enough so that if an automanipulator is hit, the automanipulator's sensors can detect the breach and it can self destruct before it can overload, so that dying with the thing on does not mean everyone around you has to run. It would be good if the self destruct feature can be disabled in covert ops if possible, so that if the operative dies, the system can be overloaded, ensuring that the operative is not captured.
The position of the electromagnetic manipulator should be somewhere in the backpack. The where is not really important since it should remain immobile.
The vector automanipulators will be positioned like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The automanipulators each point in opposite directions.
One manipulator accelerates, the other decelerates in the other direction. The electromagnetic manipulator protects the user during the transfer. Simple as that.
The delay between activation of the first automanipulator and the activation of the second controls how far the user jumps.
They can also be used to accelerate the user by being positioned at an angle and firing simultaneously, like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The primary use for this would be the ability for the user to gain a quick burst of speed if he needs more speed than a MK3 can provide. It would also be useful if the suit is used in space, since it will allow the user to do things such as match their velocity with that of a spaceship while remaining undetected and then infiltrate it by jumping through its hull.
The two modes (acceleration and teleportation) could be combined by inducing a tiny delay between the activation of the first and second automanipulators.
That way, you could do things like teleport in front of the enemy with enough speed to deliver a fatal kinetic-amp powered punch before he has a chance to react.
Of course, this requires the system to be precise enough to correctly position the automanipulators and keep them there, since if it is not, then the user might find himself veering off course and/or getting slammed into a wall at a significant fraction of c. Which is cool if you're trying to kamikaze, but not so cool for normal operation.
If there is no system stable enough to do that, then we can scrap the above for a rigid and precisely calibrated beam where the automanipulators are mounted on.
This means that the system can no longer be used to accelerate the user (except if you activate only one automanipulator, but that would probably cause you to go insanely fast) but is much safer to use.
The system also runs various self diagnostics between jumps to ensure that the user can be warned if wear caused by jumping is starting to make the system unsafe to operate (see overload and/or slamming into a wall) or possibly damaging to the user (most probable is loss of many atoms due to going through dense materials and radiation damage due to the energy released by the few atoms that are lost during normal operation).
It should be easy to do, just a few sensors on important equipment.
If that is expensive, then cheapest we can get is a cube of densely packed conductive almost-monoatomic wires. As conductivity in each wire drops, the on board electronics can measure how many atoms have been lost and from which position and run a simulation or use statistics gathered by VR-run simulations to estimate the damage caused to the suit and user and give the user an estimate of how safe it is to continue using the suit.
Now, on to the more physics oriented stuff:
My knowledge of physics is amateur at best, just what I learned by reading and in university, so I'm not 100% certain about those stuff, so I'll keep it simple.
Also, I have no idea of how quantum physics work (then again, who does?) so I'm not certain about how electrons would behave in that situation. I'm just guessing by using Newtonian physics.
First of all the problem of the air at the arriving location:
In the best case scenario, the automanipulators would simply move the body of the user. However, if that is not possible, then they will affect an area around the user, like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So when you reach your destination, you're going to be moving at that speed V, while the air will be motionless (relative to the speed you're moving with).
Let's call the air's speed Δ, where Δ=0. So at the moment you arrive to your destination, you have something like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And then the second automanipulator activates to slow you down. But since it affects everything in the surrounding area, then the air will be accelerated in the opposite direction.
So you end up with Δ'=-V and V'=0.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Obviously this won't save you if you end up inside a wall, since the material that is accelerated still has to go somewhere. It would end up impacting the rest of the wall, overheating it and probably killing you in the process.
Then we have the impact problem:
So, your main problem when moving at high speeds is impacts, be they with the atoms in the air (friction, drag) or with the atoms in a wall (collision). Interactions between atoms happen almost exclusively via electromagnetism, since gravity and the weak and strong atomic forces are not strong enough to be of any influence at the scale we're working with.
So in the best case scenario, you would find a way to disable all outside electromagnetic forces to your body for the split second the transfer takes to happen. I know this is probably very expensive, but that should be offset by the fact that they only have to be disabled for a very short time, just enough for the transportation to happen. The electromagnetic forces between the atoms in the user's body continue happening normally, keeping the body of the user together.
If that can't be done then there's a slight problem, since you'd also have to disable electromagnetism in the user's body. And with Newtonain physics, that means that the electrons orbiting the protons in the atoms of your body will become free within moments of electromagnetism being disabled, turning your body into a cloud of cold plasma. That means that you can't travel any great distances without risking your body falling apart. Even if you survive the transfer without becoming plasma, bonds between atoms can still break and many electrons will radiate photons as their orbits decay to their ground states.
I'm unsure about how time dialation would work in that scenario. My instinct tells me it would help since things will appear to be happening slower for the user, so that means that the electrons would move slower, giving the user greater range. But I'm too sleepy to think clearly right now and I need to wrap this up.
Spoiler: Numbers (click to show/hide)
Misc:
Obviously with the same resources you could get a very powerful weapon that could probably destroy walls, but that is not the purpose of the blink module. Its purpose is to provide a mobility advantage that will probably surprise your enemies, a way to bypass obstacles and allow the infiltration of otherwise inaccessible or hard to reach areas.
Note that this can probably still be affected by other people's amps and manipulators if their effect is strong enough.
Spoiler: Not relevant to the unit's function (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kriellya on May 20, 2014, 12:33:00 am
Could we get away with a pyro manip as the shield? It seems to be that our main problem is heat and collision, something that a pyro manip could handle. It would essentially just need to cool the leading edge of the sphere as it rocketed along, preventing it from heating up too much. Potentially there may also be a concern with acceleration, but since we're using auto-manips and most of the damage caused by acceleration is caused by different parts accelerating at different rates, we shouldn't have an issue. (for example, you black out at high G's not just because of the acceleration, but because your brain is accelerating faster than your blood.) If the auto-manips are accelerating everything in some sphere to their target velocity and back at the same rate, then theoretically there should be no acceleration damage, because the amp will make *everything* in your body start moving, and then make *everything* stop again.
The only potentially ruining thing I see is actually time dilation, but this might just be a timing issue to work out, where every auto-manip in sequence actually has to start working long *before* it is needed. Otherwise, at significant fractions of c, the auto-manip to decelerate might take too long to fire, giving a minimum distance to the blink that could be significantly too long to be practical ))
Post by: piecewise on May 20, 2014, 09:55:32 am
In order to make sure it empties the tubing it's gonna need a secondary source of pressure; an tank of propellent. Thats about it, really.QuoteExactly how does the namite thrower work now? How does it throw it's payload? Is it the same as a flamethrower which has pressurized tanks of the substance? Since I don't think that will work for the foam...At least I don't think so...Hmm.
Yes, as far as I'm aware it works like a flamethrower. Why would that not work for the foam? Remember, until it start crosslinking it's just a fluid, and it only really gets going once it's a few meters or so outside the nozzle.
Also, make sure the thrower is calibrated to empty it's tubing with each shot, to prevent foam clogging it.
New gauss ammo type.Actually Mind Rot is one of the few drugs that costs money. 1 token but hey, there you go.
2 part. In front, there will be a saboted steel flechette designed to pierce through light armour.
Behind that, there will be a Steel canister of maldavian mind rot. The canister will be designed to break open upon impact, getting several drops of mind rot in the wound.
This should be cheap, because mind rot is free at the armoury. It sould be highly effective against organic targets, because a single shot anywhere in the body will instantly incapacitate them.
And as per your idea, might work. Wouldn't be INSTANT because it takes a bit to be absorbed. You also have the problem that heat from firing might just boil the booze. Or spatter it. Hard to say.
That and the fact that, the instant you get injured, I will fucking break that thing sooooooo hard. Essentially I'll just force other rolls one way or another. Also gonna have to say no to it being able to switch bonuses to different things using different stats. One stat to another stat is fine, since I can still just force a roll with other stats to by pass it.So basically functionally like unholy's hardpoint except using the MKIII exoskeleton?
Yes, essentially. Just wanted to give you room to use a different bonus if you so desired.
(( Personally, I think the hard-point being straight CON to AUX is a bit... I don't know, feels a little unbalanced? Maybe it's just particularly unbalanced for us Fleshtechs, who would otherwise have an extra -1 in CON, meaning CON to AUX is essentially a gain of over 18 points in CON. I guess you feel the inflexibility of having to swap out the weapon manually and it being a worthless brick if the hardpoint is disabled is sufficient downside? ))
For example, Sy is going to try to do everything with aux, so I'll just force various weapon skill rolls for setting things up. Oh, you want to use your gun program to automate shooting? Ok. do a con roll for calibration. Oh, you rolled a 3? Guess whose shooting a few feet over his targets every time.
I'd imagine you'd get a penalty to Aux and Handi with that thing attached. Forget weight, how are you going to manipulate a keyboard with a three-foot metal brick strapped to your forearm?Wouldn't it also mean you can't swap it mid-mission?
(( You could, but I imagine it would require a handi roll and probably some help, since you probably can't access it with both hands. Conceivably, if it is a more flexibly designed system, there's actually an eject button that would let you take a turn to disconnect and reconnect without a roll, but you can still only have one weapon on the hardpoint, and switching in battle is likely dangerous. That's just the only downside I see, which seems minor when you consider how much benefit Fleshtechs get from it :P ))
If you're a robot you can send texts with your mind at the speed of thought. And as Kri is pointing out, you don't need a three-foot brick attached to your arm- just an exoskeleton or robobody.
Frankly, Saint was created with the plan of using AUX to devalue all other stats. I'm am flatly amazed at the fact PW is basically saying "yeah sure" to stuff like Kri's action. I've been figuring he'd go "Well, makes some sense, but it's completely unbalanced so no.", so I've pretty much been trying to tip-toe into it sideways.
But seriously. I already have a program that entirely devalues stats for melee combat. Apparently it's easy to make a con devaluer. Saint effectively has a +2 to more stats than most people, and will only need a single decomp. That's more OP than I ever thought I'd be allowed to do.
Heh. You ever play jenga? Because right now, Right now you're pulling out all the blocks on the bottom.
The difference is that Lars and milno will still be able to fight when I inevitably strip them of their toys.But seriously. I already have a program that entirely devalues stats for melee combat. Apparently it's easy to make a con devaluer. Saint effectively has a +2 to more stats than most people, and will only need a single decomp. That's more OP than I ever thought I'd be allowed to do.That still leaves a gaping weakspot the size of a, well, the whole suit. All somebody needs to do is scramble your suit's programming.
That's not to mention that you're only increasing the numbers on your stats. Your suit is still only as strong as what it's made of, and a good enough opponent - which having such abilities invites the GM to toss at you - will be able to easily kill you in a few good hits. As soon as your suit is damaged, all your advantage evaporates.
...What are you talking about? I'm talking about programming my physical body. Because it's robotic. Anyone in a robobody is at least as vulnerable to being hacked, because I have a high AUX bonus and can set up some level of defense. Beyond that, I plan on gaining points in Exo too, and fighting through my allies. Being able to use my own body as a weapon with AUX is only icing, you realize.
And yes, being strong and effective is an invitation for the GM to try and kill you. Even if you get strong legitimately. I'm not saying I'm invincible (In fact, it's still an inferior strategy to space wizards), I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.
Let me be straight honest with you; when you make a game breaking glass cannon, I specifically and specially manufacture a hammer to deal with you. If you survive, then I suppose you're just good enough.
Thats how I do balancing. Wack-a-mole. Sometimes on a galactic, physics based level.
Translocator/Blink module
I hope you like big posts...Can I get a picture? It sounds interesting although I can basically already tell you it is gonna be very very costly.Eh, token cost doesn't matter, I'm just doing this fore fun. Although there are some serious modifications I want to consider... And this does mean I'm wasting my time...
hmmm...
Oh well, fun comes first! Plus, if this works, it could get used in a covert op or maybe in a spaceship.
So, the simple part first:
The system comes with a suit, either a modified exoskeleton/MK3 or a custom built suit if necessary. It probably won't be necessary.
It will be good if the suit has flight capabilities since the when activated the system might damage the user's surroundings if automanipulators can't be set to only affect the user.
Let's assume this is the suit:Then the system would be attached much like an armoured backpack (the green thing in the back, yes I said know I draw terribly). All the automanipulators along with their energy source and electronics will be in it, preferably close to the center of a sphere surrounding the user.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It should have a small port so that its insides can be checked, repaired and replaced as necessary without the entire system having to be disassembled.
The system can be manually programmed with the relative coordinates. It can also be controlled via a HUD, using a rangefinder to compute the distance. Finally, it can use a combination of the two systems (for example, looking where you want to move towards, setting the distance and engaging the system). It can also be allowed to be controlled remotely, but that function should be very well protected, perhaps with a physical switch on top of normal computer security, so that it cannot be easily used by the enemy or accidentally activated by AUX overshoots of teammates.
It doesn't need much armour, just enough to slow any debris down enough so that if an automanipulator is hit, the automanipulator's sensors can detect the breach and it can self destruct before it can overload, so that dying with the thing on does not mean everyone around you has to run. It would be good if the self destruct feature can be disabled in covert ops if possible, so that if the operative dies, the system can be overloaded, ensuring that the operative is not captured.
The position of the electromagnetic manipulator should be somewhere in the backpack. The where is not really important since it should remain immobile.
The vector automanipulators will be positioned like this:A sphere within which the automanipulators can freely move.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The automanipulators each point in opposite directions.
One manipulator accelerates, the other decelerates in the other direction. The electromagnetic manipulator protects the user during the transfer. Simple as that.
The delay between activation of the first automanipulator and the activation of the second controls how far the user jumps.
They can also be used to accelerate the user by being positioned at an angle and firing simultaneously, like this:The orange arrow is the vector of the acceleration. The smaller the angle between the two automanipulators the greater the acceleration.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The primary use for this would be the ability for the user to gain a quick burst of speed if he needs more speed than a MK3 can provide. It would also be useful if the suit is used in space, since it will allow the user to do things such as match their velocity with that of a spaceship while remaining undetected and then infiltrate it by jumping through its hull.
The two modes (acceleration and teleportation) could be combined by inducing a tiny delay between the activation of the first and second automanipulators.
That way, you could do things like teleport in front of the enemy with enough speed to deliver a fatal kinetic-amp powered punch before he has a chance to react.
Of course, this requires the system to be precise enough to correctly position the automanipulators and keep them there, since if it is not, then the user might find himself veering off course and/or getting slammed into a wall at a significant fraction of c. Which is cool if you're trying to kamikaze, but not so cool for normal operation.
If there is no system stable enough to do that, then we can scrap the above for a rigid and precisely calibrated beam where the automanipulators are mounted on.
This means that the system can no longer be used to accelerate the user (except if you activate only one automanipulator, but that would probably cause you to go insanely fast) but is much safer to use.
The system also runs various self diagnostics between jumps to ensure that the user can be warned if wear caused by jumping is starting to make the system unsafe to operate (see overload and/or slamming into a wall) or possibly damaging to the user (most probable is loss of many atoms due to going through dense materials and radiation damage due to the energy released by the few atoms that are lost during normal operation).
It should be easy to do, just a few sensors on important equipment.
If that is expensive, then cheapest we can get is a cube of densely packed conductive almost-monoatomic wires. As conductivity in each wire drops, the on board electronics can measure how many atoms have been lost and from which position and run a simulation or use statistics gathered by VR-run simulations to estimate the damage caused to the suit and user and give the user an estimate of how safe it is to continue using the suit.
Now, on to the more physics oriented stuff:
My knowledge of physics is amateur at best, just what I learned by reading and in university, so I'm not 100% certain about those stuff, so I'll keep it simple.
Also, I have no idea of how quantum physics work (then again, who does?) so I'm not certain about how electrons would behave in that situation. I'm just guessing by using Newtonian physics.
First of all the problem of the air at the arriving location:
In the best case scenario, the automanipulators would simply move the body of the user. However, if that is not possible, then they will affect an area around the user, like this:Now, when you begin the transportation, you begin moving at a certain speed. Let's call that speed V.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So when you reach your destination, you're going to be moving at that speed V, while the air will be motionless (relative to the speed you're moving with).
Let's call the air's speed Δ, where Δ=0. So at the moment you arrive to your destination, you have something like this:Where the blue thing is you and the purple the air.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And then the second automanipulator activates to slow you down. But since it affects everything in the surrounding area, then the air will be accelerated in the opposite direction.
So you end up with Δ'=-V and V'=0.That will make the air leave the location you're standing in, ensuring no nasty air bubbles in the brain will kill you.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Obviously this won't save you if you end up inside a wall, since the material that is accelerated still has to go somewhere. It would end up impacting the rest of the wall, overheating it and probably killing you in the process.
Then we have the impact problem:
So, your main problem when moving at high speeds is impacts, be they with the atoms in the air (friction, drag) or with the atoms in a wall (collision). Interactions between atoms happen almost exclusively via electromagnetism, since gravity and the weak and strong atomic forces are not strong enough to be of any influence at the scale we're working with.
So in the best case scenario, you would find a way to disable all outside electromagnetic forces to your body for the split second the transfer takes to happen. I know this is probably very expensive, but that should be offset by the fact that they only have to be disabled for a very short time, just enough for the transportation to happen. The electromagnetic forces between the atoms in the user's body continue happening normally, keeping the body of the user together.
If that can't be done then there's a slight problem, since you'd also have to disable electromagnetism in the user's body. And with Newtonain physics, that means that the electrons orbiting the protons in the atoms of your body will become free within moments of electromagnetism being disabled, turning your body into a cloud of cold plasma. That means that you can't travel any great distances without risking your body falling apart. Even if you survive the transfer without becoming plasma, bonds between atoms can still break and many electrons will radiate photons as their orbits decay to their ground states.
I'm unsure about how time dialation would work in that scenario. My instinct tells me it would help since things will appear to be happening slower for the user, so that means that the electrons would move slower, giving the user greater range. But I'm too sleepy to think clearly right now and I need to wrap this up.Spoiler: Numbers (click to show/hide)
Misc:
Obviously with the same resources you could get a very powerful weapon that could probably destroy walls, but that is not the purpose of the blink module. Its purpose is to provide a mobility advantage that will probably surprise your enemies, a way to bypass obstacles and allow the infiltration of otherwise inaccessible or hard to reach areas.
Note that this can probably still be affected by other people's amps and manipulators if their effect is strong enough.Spoiler: Not relevant to the unit's function (click to show/hide)
Translocator/Blink moduleFew minor problems I see:
I hope you like big posts...Can I get a picture? It sounds interesting although I can basically already tell you it is gonna be very very costly.Eh, token cost doesn't matter, I'm just doing this fore fun. Although there are some serious modifications I want to consider... And this does mean I'm wasting my time...
hmmm...
Oh well, fun comes first! Plus, if this works, it could get used in a covert op or maybe in a spaceship.
So, the simple part first:
The system comes with a suit, either a modified exoskeleton/MK3 or a custom built suit if necessary. It probably won't be necessary.
It will be good if the suit has flight capabilities since the when activated the system might damage the user's surroundings if automanipulators can't be set to only affect the user.
Let's assume this is the suit:Then the system would be attached much like an armoured backpack (the green thing in the back, yes I said know I draw terribly). All the automanipulators along with their energy source and electronics will be in it, preferably close to the center of a sphere surrounding the user.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It should have a small port so that its insides can be checked, repaired and replaced as necessary without the entire system having to be disassembled.
The system can be manually programmed with the relative coordinates. It can also be controlled via a HUD, using a rangefinder to compute the distance. Finally, it can use a combination of the two systems (for example, looking where you want to move towards, setting the distance and engaging the system). It can also be allowed to be controlled remotely, but that function should be very well protected, perhaps with a physical switch on top of normal computer security, so that it cannot be easily used by the enemy or accidentally activated by AUX overshoots of teammates.
It doesn't need much armour, just enough to slow any debris down enough so that if an automanipulator is hit, the automanipulator's sensors can detect the breach and it can self destruct before it can overload, so that dying with the thing on does not mean everyone around you has to run. It would be good if the self destruct feature can be disabled in covert ops if possible, so that if the operative dies, the system can be overloaded, ensuring that the operative is not captured.
The position of the electromagnetic manipulator should be somewhere in the backpack. The where is not really important since it should remain immobile.
The vector automanipulators will be positioned like this:A sphere within which the automanipulators can freely move.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The automanipulators each point in opposite directions.
One manipulator accelerates, the other decelerates in the other direction. The electromagnetic manipulator protects the user during the transfer. Simple as that.
The delay between activation of the first automanipulator and the activation of the second controls how far the user jumps.
They can also be used to accelerate the user by being positioned at an angle and firing simultaneously, like this:The orange arrow is the vector of the acceleration. The smaller the angle between the two automanipulators the greater the acceleration.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The primary use for this would be the ability for the user to gain a quick burst of speed if he needs more speed than a MK3 can provide. It would also be useful if the suit is used in space, since it will allow the user to do things such as match their velocity with that of a spaceship while remaining undetected and then infiltrate it by jumping through its hull.
The two modes (acceleration and teleportation) could be combined by inducing a tiny delay between the activation of the first and second automanipulators.
That way, you could do things like teleport in front of the enemy with enough speed to deliver a fatal kinetic-amp powered punch before he has a chance to react.
Of course, this requires the system to be precise enough to correctly position the automanipulators and keep them there, since if it is not, then the user might find himself veering off course and/or getting slammed into a wall at a significant fraction of c. Which is cool if you're trying to kamikaze, but not so cool for normal operation.
If there is no system stable enough to do that, then we can scrap the above for a rigid and precisely calibrated beam where the automanipulators are mounted on.
This means that the system can no longer be used to accelerate the user (except if you activate only one automanipulator, but that would probably cause you to go insanely fast) but is much safer to use.
The system also runs various self diagnostics between jumps to ensure that the user can be warned if wear caused by jumping is starting to make the system unsafe to operate (see overload and/or slamming into a wall) or possibly damaging to the user (most probable is loss of many atoms due to going through dense materials and radiation damage due to the energy released by the few atoms that are lost during normal operation).
It should be easy to do, just a few sensors on important equipment.
If that is expensive, then cheapest we can get is a cube of densely packed conductive almost-monoatomic wires. As conductivity in each wire drops, the on board electronics can measure how many atoms have been lost and from which position and run a simulation or use statistics gathered by VR-run simulations to estimate the damage caused to the suit and user and give the user an estimate of how safe it is to continue using the suit.
Now, on to the more physics oriented stuff:
My knowledge of physics is amateur at best, just what I learned by reading and in university, so I'm not 100% certain about those stuff, so I'll keep it simple.
Also, I have no idea of how quantum physics work (then again, who does?) so I'm not certain about how electrons would behave in that situation. I'm just guessing by using Newtonian physics.
First of all the problem of the air at the arriving location:
In the best case scenario, the automanipulators would simply move the body of the user. However, if that is not possible, then they will affect an area around the user, like this:Now, when you begin the transportation, you begin moving at a certain speed. Let's call that speed V.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So when you reach your destination, you're going to be moving at that speed V, while the air will be motionless (relative to the speed you're moving with).
Let's call the air's speed Δ, where Δ=0. So at the moment you arrive to your destination, you have something like this:Where the blue thing is you and the purple the air.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And then the second automanipulator activates to slow you down. But since it affects everything in the surrounding area, then the air will be accelerated in the opposite direction.
So you end up with Δ'=-V and V'=0.That will make the air leave the location you're standing in, ensuring no nasty air bubbles in the brain will kill you.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Obviously this won't save you if you end up inside a wall, since the material that is accelerated still has to go somewhere. It would end up impacting the rest of the wall, overheating it and probably killing you in the process.
Then we have the impact problem:
So, your main problem when moving at high speeds is impacts, be they with the atoms in the air (friction, drag) or with the atoms in a wall (collision). Interactions between atoms happen almost exclusively via electromagnetism, since gravity and the weak and strong atomic forces are not strong enough to be of any influence at the scale we're working with.
So in the best case scenario, you would find a way to disable all outside electromagnetic forces to your body for the split second the transfer takes to happen. I know this is probably very expensive, but that should be offset by the fact that they only have to be disabled for a very short time, just enough for the transportation to happen. The electromagnetic forces between the atoms in the user's body continue happening normally, keeping the body of the user together.
If that can't be done then there's a slight problem, since you'd also have to disable electromagnetism in the user's body. And with Newtonain physics, that means that the electrons orbiting the protons in the atoms of your body will become free within moments of electromagnetism being disabled, turning your body into a cloud of cold plasma. That means that you can't travel any great distances without risking your body falling apart. Even if you survive the transfer without becoming plasma, bonds between atoms can still break and many electrons will radiate photons as their orbits decay to their ground states.
I'm unsure about how time dialation would work in that scenario. My instinct tells me it would help since things will appear to be happening slower for the user, so that means that the electrons would move slower, giving the user greater range. But I'm too sleepy to think clearly right now and I need to wrap this up.Spoiler: Numbers (click to show/hide)
Misc:
Obviously with the same resources you could get a very powerful weapon that could probably destroy walls, but that is not the purpose of the blink module. Its purpose is to provide a mobility advantage that will probably surprise your enemies, a way to bypass obstacles and allow the infiltration of otherwise inaccessible or hard to reach areas.
Note that this can probably still be affected by other people's amps and manipulators if their effect is strong enough.Spoiler: Not relevant to the unit's function (click to show/hide)
First, this thing would be expensive as fuck.
Second, with automanips of that size, you' get one shot, at best, and even that would probably overload them.
Three, You talk about the electromagnetic amp for the purposes of self protection, but I fail to see how it will protect you from being pulverized into subatomic shrapnel when you jerk your body forward at significant values of c, or just c.
Fourth, ignoring all the others, even if they all worked, you're accelerating to c and then back to 0 in HOW MANY METERS?! I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure that much energy would kill you and everyone around you for several miles with just the shockwave.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 20, 2014, 10:26:51 am
Quote
First, this thing would be expensive as fuck.3. I'm assuming the amps can accelerate your entire body equally. Since the speed of your head remains the same relative to the speed of your torso, you won't loose your head, even if your speed relative to the ground changes.
Second, with automanips of that size, you' get one shot, at best, and even that would probably overload them.
Three, You talk about the electromagnetic amp for the purposes of self protection, but I fail to see how it will protect you from being pulverized into subatomic shrapnel when you jerk your body forward at significant values of c, or just c.
Fourth, ignoring all the others, even if they all worked, you're accelerating to c and then back to 0 in HOW MANY METERS?! I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure that much energy would kill you and everyone around you for several miles with just the shockwave.
4. Well, if the electromagnetic automanipulator works as I intend it to, the air between the starting point and end point will be left undisturbed. However, you're right, the air that is displaced at your endpoint would be going insanely fast, thus creating a big shockwave. So that will make it only be usable in space.
Anyway, the above mean that this will find only very limited use in space or giant robot combat, so I'm abandoning the project. If anyone feels like making teleporting giant robots or spaceships, feel free to use the above as you like.
I liked your jenga metaphor by the way. My thoughts exactly.
Edit: New project: ESDS (Electrified Surface Defense System) Battlesuit Power Plug
Check how the battlesuit's ESDS works. Would it be possible to modify it to allow it to charge the battlesuit's capacitors if the battlesuit is hit by an external electrical current, perhaps by fitting a few heavy duty transformers in it?
While I'm at it, see how the battlesuit normally charges and if it could accept power I took from a wall socket.
While I'm at it, see if I could chain the powersource of the battlesuit with that of my MK2's and my rechargeable mining laser with a few simple plugs and transformers.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 20, 2014, 11:39:19 am
Quote
In order to make sure it empties the tubing it's gonna need a secondary source of pressure; an tank of propellent. Thats about it, really.Yeah, figured as much. Sure, add a small secondary tank with pressured gas.
Also, ok if we just put the dissolvant in a spray can? And is the dissolvant damaging to skin, and if yes, to what extent?
Post by: PyroDesu on May 20, 2014, 12:31:04 pm
Since you become a plasma (and, since you've disabled electromagnetics, there's much less keeping protons away from one another, a plasma that might have a bit of fusion going on in it), and plasma is essentially gas that has been stripped of electric charge, what used to be your body is now going to attempt to equalize pressure with the surrounding atmosphere (up to and including vacuum).
Do you know what we call something solid or liquid becoming a large amount of gas all of a sudden, or rather, the gasses' attempt to equalize pressure? An explosion.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 20, 2014, 12:36:51 pm
Paris:Hence why I asked for the automanipulator to only disable the influence of outside electromagnetic forces if possible. The atoms making up the body would continue to affect each other, hence keeping the body from exploding.
Since you become a plasma (and, since you've disabled electromagnetics, there's much less keeping protons away from one another, a plasma that might have a bit of fusion going on in it), and plasma is essentially gas that has been stripped of electric charge, what used to be your body is now going to attempt to equalize pressure with the surrounding atmosphere (up to and including vacuum).
Do you know what we call something solid or liquid becoming a large amount of gas all of a sudden, or rather, the gasses' attempt to equalize pressure? An explosion.
If that was not possible, then there isn't much chance this will work unless you only want to teleport a few millimeters for some reason.
Post by: tryrar on May 20, 2014, 12:42:38 pm
((though, this idea might have to wait for the next mission))
Post by: syvarris on May 20, 2014, 01:20:15 pm
Thoughts:
One: I'm planning on using sods for the actual movements. :\ One of my first requests to Simus was going to be an obstacle course and shooting range, with a few robosods.
Two: I plan on localizing the movements to different limbs. Or trying to anyways. I want to minimize the impact of, say, missing a leg.
Three:I'm duel-speccing in exo, the other game breaking skill.
Four:One of my ideas for tinker is a sod brain backpack.
I'm absolutely amazed that PW just said my initial roll for calibrating the program would decide all rolls using it. That means I'll have sod-level accuracy as long as my suit's undamaged!
((Honestly, I'm really surprised you suggested that as a penalty. Since I'm on Heph, I'd have plenty of tries to correct the calibration back to five.))
...I'm guessing whatever is inside that Nyars box I bought has spontaneously changed into something very deadly.
Post by: Toaster on May 20, 2014, 01:56:16 pm
[Con:1-2] It beeps several times, then turns around and shoots you in the face. You are dead.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 20, 2014, 01:58:22 pm
Post by: syvarris on May 20, 2014, 02:22:23 pm
@syv: the only way you'll pull this off is by either spending a lot of tokens/RU on it, or getting extremely lucky. There's a canyon's worth of distance between 'it could be done' and actually doing it.
Perhaps. My intention is to have two or so sods practice with the cheaper, more common equipment pieces, like gauss rifles and handlasers, for a few years. Overall, on Heph, that should be pretty cheap and easy.
You do have a point though. Before PW said what he just said, I had been under the impression that he really didn't care about AUX being OP; I assumed just getting a single AUX:5 on a simple three-sentence action would be sufficient, and the rest of what I was doing was insurance/self-enforced balance.
Post by: NAV on May 20, 2014, 04:16:38 pm
Test the round vs a naked person, mk1, mk2, mk3, and civic defenders longcoat.
Also test how many it takes to bring down a t-rex.
Post by: tryrar on May 20, 2014, 04:39:21 pm
Start a project called 'Thor' Gauss mortar. Start with a metal plate, add a simple swivel mechanism, then add in succession 3 different tubes of 60mm, 80mm, and 100mm, and add a bipod to each to stabilize the firing angle.
Attach gauss coils and a generator(stepped down to ensure the whole thing doesn't fly apart upon firing) and three buttons-one to fire the thing, one to airburst the shell, and one to manually disarm the shell. Save the 60mm mortar as Thor-A, the 80mm mortar as Thor-B, and the 100mm mortar as Thor-C.
Create an appropriately sized standard frag shell for each different mortar, and test how far each of them can fire a shell downrange. test how powerful a transmitter I'd need to airburst each shell at max range, test firing parameters and practice leading targets with the shell(mortar shells tend to have a lot of hangtime). Also create high explosive and incendiary shells and practice with those.
Test the weight of each different prototype and see how strong I'd need to be to carry them(ie, how man-portable they are).
Finally, open up a sub-project involving a shell housing a kinetic amp and a shaped charge, appropriately sized to each prototype, and name this 'Mjolnir VHE shell'.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 20, 2014, 04:55:32 pm
-snip-[/b]
You really did take a page from my creation of the launcher, didn't you? Though I'll point out that the Thor-A is only 10mm higher calibre than the... I think I'll call it the Ekrixi Grenade Launcher.
Post by: tryrar on May 20, 2014, 05:08:05 pm
-snip-[/b]
You really did take a page from my creation of the launcher, didn't you? Though I'll point out that the Thor-A is only 10mm higher calibre than the... I think I'll call it the Ekrixi Grenade Launcher.
Yeah, but 60mm stands the highest chance I'll actually be able to lug this thing around, though I can go to an in-between caliber and put it at 70mm. Remember, I'd have to likely increase the size of the buttplate and bipods as barrel diameter rises to insure proper firing stability
Post by: PyroDesu on May 20, 2014, 05:18:20 pm
-snip-
You really did take a page from my creation of the launcher, didn't you? Though I'll point out that the Thor-A is only 10mm higher calibre than the... I think I'll call it the Ekrixi Grenade Launcher.
Yeah, but 60mm stands the highest chance I'll actually be able to lug this thing around, though I can go to an in-between caliber and put it at 70mm. Remember, I'd have to likely increase the size of the buttplate and bipods as barrel diameter rises to insure proper firing stability
Just saying there's not much of a gap between your lightest mortar design and my grenade launcher design, that's all. Personally, were I designing, I would start at 80mm, then 100mm, then 120mm, though the last might begin to push then envelope of what could be called 'man-portable', without a whole fireteam.
Post by: tryrar on May 20, 2014, 05:28:50 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on May 21, 2014, 12:33:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That, of course, is reality - PW doesn't do things like being weighed down by equipment, really. Or awkward equipment bulk (we can carry LESHO rifles solo, after all). Unless he can use it as an excuse for something like failing to climb a rope or whatever.
Post by: piecewise on May 21, 2014, 11:32:19 am
Recharge the batteries via being electrocuted? As in, if someone whacks you with a tesla sabre you want to hear the Wall-e battery recharge noise? Doable, but easily damaged since you'll need a mesh of wire leading into the battery and a bunch of capacitors and such to control the flow and amount and not bust the battery, Since the electrical discharge runs on a separate battery, rather then the suit's main generator.QuoteFirst, this thing would be expensive as fuck.3. I'm assuming the amps can accelerate your entire body equally. Since the speed of your head remains the same relative to the speed of your torso, you won't loose your head, even if your speed relative to the ground changes.
Second, with automanips of that size, you' get one shot, at best, and even that would probably overload them.
Three, You talk about the electromagnetic amp for the purposes of self protection, but I fail to see how it will protect you from being pulverized into subatomic shrapnel when you jerk your body forward at significant values of c, or just c.
Fourth, ignoring all the others, even if they all worked, you're accelerating to c and then back to 0 in HOW MANY METERS?! I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure that much energy would kill you and everyone around you for several miles with just the shockwave.
4. Well, if the electromagnetic automanipulator works as I intend it to, the air between the starting point and end point will be left undisturbed. However, you're right, the air that is displaced at your endpoint would be going insanely fast, thus creating a big shockwave. So that will make it only be usable in space.
Anyway, the above mean that this will find only very limited use in space or giant robot combat, so I'm abandoning the project. If anyone feels like making teleporting giant robots or spaceships, feel free to use the above as you like.
I liked your jenga metaphor by the way. My thoughts exactly.
Edit: New project: ESDS (Electrified Surface Defense System) Battlesuit Power Plug
Check how the battlesuit's ESDS works. Would it be possible to modify it to allow it to charge the battlesuit's capacitors if the battlesuit is hit by an external electrical current, perhaps by fitting a few heavy duty transformers in it?
While I'm at it, see how the battlesuit normally charges and if it could accept power I took from a wall socket.
While I'm at it, see if I could chain the powersource of the battlesuit with that of my MK2's and my rechargeable mining laser with a few simple plugs and transformers.
Battlesuit uses a generator much like the normal suits. Just a bigger one.
Ahhhhhh it will be fine. It will be fine. Don't worry. It will just dissolve the skin a liiiittle bit. Better then a bullet. Or a lot of bullets.QuoteIn order to make sure it empties the tubing it's gonna need a secondary source of pressure; an tank of propellent. Thats about it, really.Yeah, figured as much. Sure, add a small secondary tank with pressured gas.
Also, ok if we just put the dissolvant in a spray can? And is the dissolvant damaging to skin, and if yes, to what extent?
((This is as soon as the briefing is over, just getting started on this in case we don't have a lot of time before mission go))I really don't see anything here that wouldn't work. Although, I would point out that ARM/HMRC rarely gets the chance to use long range, high arc parabolic weapons. Just a heads up before you spend like 10 tokens on this and never get the chance to shoot it, except as an adhoc gauss cannon.
Start a project called 'Thor' Gauss mortar. Start with a metal plate, add a simple swivel mechanism, then add in succession 3 different tubes of 60mm, 80mm, and 100mm, and add a bipod to each to stabilize the firing angle.
Attach gauss coils and a generator(stepped down to ensure the whole thing doesn't fly apart upon firing) and three buttons-one to fire the thing, one to airburst the shell, and one to manually disarm the shell. Save the 60mm mortar as Thor-A, the 80mm mortar as Thor-B, and the 100mm mortar as Thor-C.
Create an appropriately sized standard frag shell for each different mortar, and test how far each of them can fire a shell downrange. test how powerful a transmitter I'd need to airburst each shell at max range, test firing parameters and practice leading targets with the shell(mortar shells tend to have a lot of hangtime). Also create high explosive and incendiary shells and practice with those.
Test the weight of each different prototype and see how strong I'd need to be to carry them(ie, how man-portable they are).
Finally, open up a sub-project involving a shell housing a kinetic amp and a shaped charge, appropriately sized to each prototype, and name this 'Mjolnir VHE shell'.
Well, for size reference, at least, this:Reality only comes into play when I can use it to fuck you over.is the M252 81mm mortar, with some soldiers around it providing some scale (and operating it). Looks to me like it might be possible to be single man-portable - though I doubt he'd be carrying much else, and would have fairly limited ammunition... and some trouble operating it alone, since it looks like that model uses one person to aim while the other fires it - that's not a terribly hard restriction to get around, though.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That, of course, is reality - PW doesn't do things like being weighed down by equipment, really. Or awkward equipment bulk (we can carry LESHO rifles solo, after all). Unless he can use it as an excuse for something like failing to climb a rope or whatever.
Post by: tryrar on May 21, 2014, 11:47:35 am
So, if nothing here isn't something I can't carry by myself, ramp this up to 80mm, 100mm, and 120mm and see if I can still carry the 120mm. Afterwards, test out the Mjolnir shell. What is it's blast radius? What affect does the amp have?
Next, options for the incendiary shell. What substances can I use to achieve the maximum carnage with burning death?
Finally, cost breakdown of all the mortars, shells, and materials. Would this be able to be prototyped?
For simplicity, I want to get the biggest one I can carry prototyped. If that's the 120mm mortar, cool. If not, the 100mm
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 21, 2014, 12:04:39 pm
Quote
Next, options for the incendiary shell. What substances can I use to achieve the maximum carnage with burning death?
Namite. It's very good, burns very hot (like a super napalm).
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 21, 2014, 01:01:31 pm
So if I were to be able to gain power easily from anywhere I want (by simply ripping power cables off a wall and attaching them on the battlesuit's armour for example) I could fire for much longer without having to wait to recharge the battlesuit's capacitors, at the cost of becoming stationary, essentially trading mobility for firepower.
That's why I wanted to know if I could modify the battlesuit's Electrified Surface Defence System. So that this power transfer could happen automatically, simply by attaching the wires on it without me having to get outside the battlesuit and try to connect it with the power manually.
The ability to gain power by teammates (or enemies) hitting me with a tesla saber or one of Sean's electrolasers would be an added bonus, although it probably wouldn't see much use.
Would it be possible to do the above (charging the battlesuit's main capacitor) by inserting those capacitors you mentioned and perhaps a few variable transformers or diodes and linking the above to the battlesuit's main capacitor?
Maybe add a sensor and a physical switch so that a powersource can be tested before linking it to the suit, so as to prevent damage in case it's too powerful or too weak?
Post by: PyroDesu on May 21, 2014, 01:46:42 pm
QuoteNext, options for the incendiary shell. What substances can I use to achieve the maximum carnage with burning death?
Namite. It's very good, burns very hot (like a super napalm).
Fluorine is pretty good for carnage. Especially bound up with Chlorine or Oxygen (I have used Chlorine Trifluoride, but Dioxygen Difluoride would also work (though it is unstable - it'll slowly decompose into Oxygen Difluoride, which is still pretty nasty)).
Post by: tryrar on May 21, 2014, 01:50:36 pm
Post by: NAV on May 21, 2014, 02:25:49 pm
Does the mind rot cost one token per shot, or one token per magazine of ten?Forgot me.
Test the round vs a naked person, mk1, mk2, mk3, and civic defenders longcoat.
Also test how many it takes to bring down a t-rex.
Post by: tryrar on May 21, 2014, 07:20:36 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 22, 2014, 07:00:29 am
Quote
No. Not unless the generator is strong enough to power the laser at max power. We pretty much never run out of laser battery power, unless people use it as a cutting device, and if that's a problem we should probably just make a better cutting device.I'm not just talking about players here, but sod forces as well. Also, people have run out of battery before, it just seems pw keeps much less track of ammo now that there are many more people playing. And a lot of people in the past have spend tokens on hooking up their laser weapons to some sort of generator, so they wouldn't have to worry about ammo anymore.
Also, maybe we could give that laser some extra functionality, like an electrolaser built in standard. Just an idea.
Quote
Chemical explosives are a terrible idea. Electricity is practically free in ER, plus chemical explosives are a extremely inefficient way to propel a bullet- most of the force is lost in escaping gasses after the bullet leaves.Looking at modern firearms, and taking into account that fuels/propellants in ER have incredible energy density, that little bit of chemicals explosive could give some serious extra ooomph to the weapon, while still being cheap. Sure, adding an extra charging circuit might do the same, but to decide what is most efficient, I'd like to see some empirical testing done, instead of just going by gut feeling. You guys have a shooting range, you can do it.
Quote
...Why would we make them more powerful? They're already at the level you can shoot a guy in the shin and you'll blow his leg off. And nobody uses armor unless it's basically tank armor. The only real improvements I can see for gauss rifles are a higher fire speed, and higher accuracy.Because that would be the low-tier answer to mid-tier armor. Sure, it still wouldn't oneshot a battlesuit, but it should at least still do some damage if hit in the right spot. Doesn't have to be gauss per se by the way, just an example, a rocket launcher is also good (though a grenade launcher is more a support weapon, I think). Or do a mix, make it a miniature LESHO but without the guiding systems.
Quote
I like Anton's red hand design. It has a non-lethal level, although I guess it's not necessarily reliable. It's still a wonderful sidearm.It's not usable in vaccuum though, or underwater. Or a stiff breeze (though pw probably won't ever take that into account). Not to say it's not good, but perhaps not universally usable enough.
Quote
Then, make an automatic sub-machinegun of some form. We have a distressing lack of them, and they are very powerful weapons in CQB. Especially considering how little armor most people wear, this should be a no-brainer.Could be combined with the second idea, since most battles don't go beyond lower medium range anyways. Keep things a bit streamlined.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 22, 2014, 07:20:56 am
Haha, yeah. Although it's pretty much the perfect engineer's sidearm. With a built-in feeding mechanism for welding wire, it will effectively become a self-contained universal repair tool - it can cut, it can arc-weld, it never runs out of power and in fact can act as a decent powersource, it's reasonably precise, it doesn't need a holster or occupy a hand, and it's also a reasonable self-defense weapon, both as a hand laser and with the electrolaser function.QuoteI like Anton's red hand design. It has a non-lethal level, although I guess it's not necessarily reliable. It's still a wonderful sidearm.It's not usable in vaccuum though, or underwater. Or a stiff breeze (though pw probably won't ever take that into account). Not to say it's not good, but perhaps not universally usable enough.
True about the limitations, though the stiff breeze won't make it not work, it'll just make anyone standing downwind of you really uncomfortable. But you can always electro-punch people with it.
Really, I have only a few modifications to make to it before I commit it to the armory. The mentioned feeder for welding wire is one, but what it really needs is a bigger emitter than the hand laser, perhaps a phased array of several hand lasers or just a reworked laser rifle emitter - the generator is made to power the high-voltage spark gap, so it can fire a much more powerful weapon without it. It can also use some kind of universal jack-in power port to recharge batteries or power small mounted weapons. So, as soon as I have the time to overhaul it into a non-jury-rigged contraption, I will make it available.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 22, 2014, 07:22:35 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 22, 2014, 08:11:41 am
No. Not unless the generator is strong enough to power the laser at max power. We pretty much never run out of laser battery power, unless people use it as a cutting device, and if that's a problem we should probably just make a better cutting device.Making it "standard" is probably not wise, but the Gungnir-S conversion kit, if sold separately from the saber and the rifle, is effectively just a custom bolt-on stock for the laser rifle that has a generator and slots into the power pack chamber. The generator effectively doubles the price of the weapon, but if it's made as a simple add-on pack instead of a DIY "assembly required" deal, it can very well be used as "standard".
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This is... really relying on sci-fi, so I can't exactly argue against it very well, but I'm just gonna guess the weapon would have to be especially complex, and probably quite heavy, to do this. Most of the time, I'd think having a normal gauss weapon with a standard caliber would be sufficient.The only sci-fi it relies on is a metamaterial that instantly transitions from liquid at room temperature to solid with the right conditions, while retaining magnetic properties in both states. Everything else can already be done in-universe, it just needs to be mashed together with enough force. (you know, so it fuses. :P)
It's certainly a neat idea though, and that might be enough. It really just depends on how much more costly it would be compared to standard designs.
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My ideas:The Mk1's we use are basically oldtimey spacesuits, relatively speaking. We use them because they're the cheapest and simplest thing around.
First, Fix the gorram MK.1. The UWM found some way to do away with heat fins, so we should probably copy that. Then, add a large generator to the back, at least large enough to power a red hand. Add a power port to the back of the forearm on each arm, and connect weapons to that. This way, basic suits would cost more, but weapons would overall be cheaper because each one doesn't need it's own power supply.
Taking a page from Anton's MCS, add hardpoint all over it to accept things like a larger generator, a (sod) brain box, or special weapons. Don't include stuff like exoskeletons and cameyes by default though.
Also, make sure it has a robust computer system so I can make WAFFLES very advanced. No, I don't know what that stands for. It's a battlefield awareness thing.
Really, anything we do to upgrade the Mk1 will just bring it closer to a Mk2, and is unlikely to do so at lesser cost. Though perhaps we could outfit the Mk1 with some of the Mk2's survival features, like medical systems and anti-breach compartmentalization features, at little enough cost to make this sort of a "Mk1.5" suitable as a default suit replacement.
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Then, make an automatic sub-machinegun of some form. We have a distressing lack of them, and they are very powerful weapons in CQB. Especially considering how little armor most people wear, this should be a no-brainer.And yet you say chemical explosives in weapons are useless... there is no way to make a compact and deadly SMG with gauss tech. Sometimes, there is no replacing an FN P90.
I think the main question we need to ask ourselves is what we want basic weapons to be for. Are they for expendable sods to use en masse? Are they for standard usage until you get something very specific for very specific purposes? Are they for newbies to remain useful even if they don't have a ton of tokens? Are they for unreliable people with stupid ideas to do things without causing too many problems? Because depending on what we're going for, the answer to what we want will change pretty radically. If we're hoping for newbies to keep up with vets, for instance, we'll generally want basic weapons to be short-lived but powerful, or to have a lot of utility built in that's likely to be useful but not replicated by more powerful individuals. If we want to keep newcomers from screwing everything up, we might want uncon and exo basic weapons that aren't amps or manips.My idea for "basic" weapons is primarily "weapons that are intended to be most widely used in our forces", sort of "standard issue". They may not be the cheapest or the simplest weapons we have (no beating the Gauss and Laser rifles for cost-efficiency and blunt simplicity), but they must be suitable to a wide range of uses, and be cheap enough to mass-produce, while still maintaining a measure of "punch-above-your-weight" ability for the really desperate times. Both weapons I described seem, to me, fit that idea.
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You sure these are going to count as "basic?" They seem pretty elaborate.Ultimately, a whole lot, I think. A lot of civilians are going to appreciate being guarded by Sods (
Going from the designs, though, it seems like your goal is flexibility and quite possibly standardization- making "basic" guns "normal" or "standard" rather than "garbage you use until you can afford something better."
This makes me wonder what the average life cycle of an ARM operative looks like. How many of what kinds of people are going to value these designs for how long?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 22, 2014, 08:31:18 am
Spawn monorazor sword.
Spawn one token worth of monorazor proof grade A vibranium metamaterial.
Put in a third slightly elongated limb in the centre tipped with a vibranium control anchor to hold the wire.
Move the hilt behind and trigger the vibrations from this new limb.
Reduce the distance between the original two limbs to form th crosspiece.
Make sure the new limb is thin enough to slide, or squeeze, through the hole torn by the monofilament.
Replace limb material with something stronger if necessary.
So yeah basic idea is this:
An extremely thin Vibranium shaping tip is attached to the new central limb and sort of welded to the wire itself.
This limb is then vibrated, either on its own or In conjunction with the original vibration source and allows the razor to perform slashing and stabbing attacks while the new thinner limb slides into the grooves the monofilament shreds in the target.
Basically monoatomic butchers cleaver becomes monoatomic gladius, or dirk, probably a dirk.
Post by: piecewise on May 22, 2014, 09:19:54 am
Yeah, I know that mortars don't get to be used often, but I'm on the mission to the south pole so unless I need to actually get inside the thing we are digging up I won't have a problem not using this :DNo, what I meant was nothing here looks to be something that needs to be modified in order to work. If you keep making it bigger you're not gonna be able to carry as many shells. I mean, 120mm are stupid big (http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20110527/800_ap_smuggled_mortar_shel_430241.jpg?2). You'd be able to carry like 2 and nothing else.
So, if nothing here isn't something I can't carry by myself, ramp this up to 80mm, 100mm, and 120mm and see if I can still carry the 120mm. Afterwards, test out the Mjolnir shell. What is it's blast radius? What affect does the amp have?
Next, options for the incendiary shell. What substances can I use to achieve the maximum carnage with burning death?
Finally, cost breakdown of all the mortars, shells, and materials. Would this be able to be prototyped?
For simplicity, I want to get the biggest one I can carry prototyped. If that's the 120mm mortar, cool. If not, the 100mm
That shell would really only be effective if it's directly over something. The explosion is just gonna create a really powerful downward shockwave because the amp will focus all the force of the blast straight out as an expanding cone of force. So you'd basically need a direct hit.
Namite
Cost? Oh, shells will probably be pretty cheap. Token or 2. Mortar itself is upwards of 8 to 10. As per prototyping, you're gonna have to explain to the armory master how this thing is significantly different from just buying a gauss cannon and firing in parabolas.
Yeah, I was thinking that the main limitation of the Rainbow Cannon is energy consumption (and possibly overheating, haven't tried firing for that long).Ah.
So if I were to be able to gain power easily from anywhere I want (by simply ripping power cables off a wall and attaching them on the battlesuit's armour for example) I could fire for much longer without having to wait to recharge the battlesuit's capacitors, at the cost of becoming stationary, essentially trading mobility for firepower.
That's why I wanted to know if I could modify the battlesuit's Electrified Surface Defence System. So that this power transfer could happen automatically, simply by attaching the wires on it without me having to get outside the battlesuit and try to connect it with the power manually.
The ability to gain power by teammates (or enemies) hitting me with a tesla saber or one of Sean's electrolasers would be an added bonus, although it probably wouldn't see much use.
Would it be possible to do the above (charging the battlesuit's main capacitor) by inserting those capacitors you mentioned and perhaps a few variable transformers or diodes and linking the above to the battlesuit's main capacitor?
Maybe add a sensor and a physical switch so that a powersource can be tested before linking it to the suit, so as to prevent damage in case it's too powerful or too weak?
In that case, there are a few routes you could go.
1. Your idea, wire mesh and capacitors and such, would work fine, but be easily breakable.
2. My Suggestion is that you use a "universal" plug (ie a conductive metal cup that you could just jam wires or cabling into) and have that fill an internal battery. You'd still need the capacitors and such to bring it down or up to the right current, but that battery, if you rig it up right, could then be charged from an external source or, if the suit isn't using it's full power, just charge the battery with it.
It costs 1 token per small bottle. How far that goes depends on how much you put in each round.Does the mind rot cost one token per shot, or one token per magazine of ten?Forgot me.
Test the round vs a naked person, mk1, mk2, mk3, and civic defenders longcoat.
Also test how many it takes to bring down a t-rex.
And really thats rather important, because if you're just putting a small amount in there, all thats gonna happen is when the bullet hits the blood flowing out is gonna take the Mindrot with it and not gonna effect the target. You're better off using some sort of gas grenade or chemical sprayer, or a dart round.
boot up the tinker.That would basically just snap the filament at the stress point of the "Vibranimum" Thats the problem with monorazor stuff, you can't really stab with it.
Spawn monorazor sword.
Spawn one token worth of monorazor proof grade A vibranium metamaterial.
Put in a third slightly elongated limb in the centre tipped with a vibranium control anchor to hold the wire.
Move the hilt behind and trigger the vibrations from this new limb.
Reduce the distance between the original two limbs to form th crosspiece.
Make sure the new limb is thin enough to slide, or squeeze, through the hole torn by the monofilament.
Replace limb material with something stronger if necessary.
So yeah basic idea is this:
An extremely thin Vibranium shaping tip is attached to the new central limb and sort of welded to the wire itself.
This limb is then vibrated, either on its own or In conjunction with the original vibration source and allows the razor to perform slashing and stabbing attacks while the new thinner limb slides into the grooves the monofilament shreds in the target.
Basically monoatomic butchers cleaver becomes monoatomic gladius, or dirk, probably a dirk.
You could stab with something like renen's sword, but his stuff has all sorts of unique problems.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 22, 2014, 09:32:25 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 22, 2014, 10:24:58 am
How many tokens for that plug (I'm assuming it's just two metal cups with things to hold the wires and prevent them from falling off) and the capacitors and other electronics for the thing?
Would it cost extra to have a sensor that would test the current for whether or not it's too powerful, something like a breaker switch?
Could I use that rechargable vehicle battery I have connected to my industrial mining laser or does it not have enough power to make a significant difference?
If not, what would I need to make the red plasma beam fire for twice as long? How much would it all cost?
While we're at it, what's the best energy to size ratio battery I can get installed in this system, how many times more long-lasting is it compared to Gilgamesh's main capacitor and what would that bring the cost to?
Oh, irrelevant, directed more towards our other tinker people designing weapons, but I read that the Russian Military is using some kind of generator that gets its electricity from an explosion to power their prototype railguns. Assuming that that technology has advanced and can create more power than our standard generator/capacitor combo, you could use it to create a gauss gun or pulse laser that would be more powerful at the cost of not having unlimited power.
Post by: tryrar on May 22, 2014, 10:25:48 am
As for the Mjolnir shell....check how far out the cone of effect hits out to, and how far it's diameter expands. See if there's an optimal height to airburst the shell for maximum carnage to an area. Finally, load up a battlesuit and an AoW have each of them hit by the Mjolnir to check how well this thing destroys armored targets.
Post by: syvarris on May 22, 2014, 12:11:51 pm
Looking at modern firearms, and taking into account that fuels/propellants in ER have incredible energy density, that little bit of chemicals explosive could give some serious extra ooomph to the weapon, while still being cheap. Sure, adding an extra charging circuit might do the same, but to decide what is most efficient, I'd like to see some empirical testing done, instead of just going by gut feeling. You guys have a shooting range, you can do it.
Eh, true, we don't know how good propellents are in ER. It still stands that regardless of energy density they're inefficient in how they apply it, which is what I was trying to say. More than half of the kinetic force that leaves the barrel is still in the gasses ejected, which means that a gauss weapon with the same bullet velocity and size should have less than half the recoil of a chemical propellant firearm. Muzzle brakes can mitigate this somewhat, but they can't fully solve the problem.
Beyond that, adding propellents to the bullets makes them larger, and more expensive, even if you make them caseless. And you get muzzle flash, which is more a tactical disadvantage but it's certainly a bad one.
Because that would be the low-tier answer to mid-tier armor. Sure, it still wouldn't oneshot a battlesuit, but it should at least still do some damage if hit in the right spot. Doesn't have to be gauss per se by the way, just an example, a rocket launcher is also good (though a grenade launcher is more a support weapon, I think). Or do a mix, make it a miniature LESHO but without the guiding systems.
Gauss rifles already do damage against battlesuits if you shoot them in the joints. Not much, but you can cripple them. And as far as sandpapering their armor... well, a Sibillus does that. I thiiink a series of overcharged gauss rounds can sandpaper a battlesuit too, but that was literally fifteen hundred pages of on-ship ago. And nearly two years...
And you're not gonna make a 'low-tier' mini-LESHO which fires a round larger than a gauss rifle. It's a railgun, and uses a fancy (and expensive!) meta-material that reverts to it's original form when it gets shocked.
[Anton's Red Hand is] not usable in vaccuum though, or underwater. Or a stiff breeze (though pw probably won't ever take that into account). Not to say it's not good, but perhaps not universally usable enough.
It's still a very good sidearm, and IIRC most of the cost was for the generators, which would be negated if we link suit power to our weaponry. It would be a suitable replacement for our current hand laser.
Could be combined with the second idea, since most battles don't go beyond lower medium range anyways. Keep things a bit streamlined.Yeah, to be honest we could probably replace all our weapons with SMGs and we'd be doing better. I'm as much an advocate of battle rifles as anyone, but we really don't fight many battles where range is needed.
The only sci-fi it relies on is a metamaterial that instantly transitions from liquid at room temperature to solid with the right conditions, while retaining magnetic properties in both states. Everything else can already be done in-universe, it just needs to be mashed together with enough force. (you know, so it fuses. :P)The piezoelectric shards are a liquid that changes into a crystal under an electric current, I believe.
...This might be a good time to mention that I was thinking of making a piezoelectric SMG.
The Mk1's we use are basically oldtimey spacesuits, relatively speaking. We use them because they're the cheapest and simplest thing around.
Really, anything we do to upgrade the Mk1 will just bring it closer to a Mk2, and is unlikely to do so at lesser cost. Though perhaps we could outfit the Mk1 with some of the Mk2's survival features, like medical systems and anti-breach compartmentalization features, at little enough cost to make this sort of a "Mk1.5" suitable as a default suit replacement.
Yeah, that's a good point. I still say the improved generator is important, because not having a power source in every gun would be quite useful. Also, moving the power transfer point to the palm of the hand, so that weapons can be drawn easily and not have to be plugged in. That would be very bad. It might also double as an emergency taser- just slap the enemy with your electrified glove!
And yes, we would need versions of weapons with their own power sources for black ops. Those could be specialized versions that are more expensive, or modification kits.
And yet you say chemical explosives in weapons are useless... there is no way to make a compact and deadly SMG with gauss tech. Sometimes, there is no replacing an FN P90.
D:<
Honestly, there's probably no possible way you could have stated that better, considering how much of a P90 fanboy I am. RL P90s would probably be sufficient for our purposes, actually.
But I disagree with you on the gauss weapons. The P90 still has a ten inch barrel, which I'd think is still an effective length for a gauss weapon. We can easily shrink the round to a 5mm too, and on top of that the weapon would probably have lighter recoil than a real P90. Not that that really matters. Fires like a dream already...
Between that, and powering it by suit, we could easily get a high rate of fire. And a gauss weapon can fire more bullets in a magazine by size, because it needs no propellant.
...Anyways, I'm only going to try for a gauss SMG if the PSL (hah) can't be miniaturized into a SMG cheaply. Considering how massively effective the foot long shards are, a two inch shard should still be pretty horrific against a human.
Ultimately, a whole lot, I think. A lot of civilians are going to appreciate being guarded by Sods (Yes, making specialized weapons does carry the risk that the soldier runs into a situation that he can't deal with. But, he will be able to deal with the situation he runs into most often very effectively.and Artees) that have weapons advanced enough to handle a wide variety of tasks. The weapons we have, have a certain series of flaws, or perhaps one big flaw - they are too specialized. A gauss rifle, once you choose it, is good for exactly one thing - punching a hole in the thing you point it at. It's really good for it, as long as there's only the one thing - the refire delay means that you can't engage multiple rapidly approaching targets with it, and the shot power means that if you're threatened by something numerous and unarmored - like if Xan decides to flood the universe with Xanlings - then you're wasting your limited ammo on massive overkill of single targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ew_jfj9798). Conversely, the laser rifle is great for sweeping the beam around and killing little things, but it takes a longer, more concentrated and more accurate attack to kill something big with it. The designs I thought of try to address those two points, giving the weapons more versatility so that if a soldier has only one type of weapon, he is less screwed if he encounters a situation his weapon is not intended for. While, hopefully, staying cheap enough for mass production.
Attempting to make every weapon be able to perform every role will mean that your soldier will be able to deal with any situation, but he won't be able to deal with any of them as well as if he had a specialized gun. If 80% of the situations he runs into can be dealt with the specialized one, you should give him the specialized one because chances are he'll die in one of those situations anyways.
Besides, we have swiss army knives in our forces anyways. We call them space wizards.
Also, Radio and Sean, when you're quoting posts could you start writing your message on a newline after the (/quote) tag? As it is, you just have these massive lumps that are hard to parse in the message box.
Completely unrelated: HEY! PIECEWISE! Do robot-body people have things that mimick the functions of glands, like the adrenal glands? Do they suffer/benefit from fight-or-flight?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 22, 2014, 01:51:51 pm
And yet you say chemical explosives in weapons are useless... there is no way to make a compact and deadly SMG with gauss tech. Sometimes, there is no replacing an FN P90.
D:<
Honestly, there's probably no possible way you could have stated that better, considering how much of a P90 fanboy I am. RL P90s would probably be sufficient for our purposes, actually.
But I disagree with you on the gauss weapons. The P90 still has a ten inch barrel, which I'd think is still an effective length for a gauss weapon. We can easily shrink the round to a 5mm too, and on top of that the weapon would probably have lighter recoil than a real P90. Not that that really matters. Fires like a dream already...
Between that, and powering it by suit, we could easily get a high rate of fire. And a gauss weapon can fire more bullets in a magazine by size, because it needs no propellant.
...Anyways, I'm only going to try for a gauss SMG if the PSL (hah) can't be miniaturized into a SMG cheaply. Considering how massively effective the foot long shards are, a two inch shard should still be pretty horrific against a human.
Gauss SMGs face a whole slew of problems even not taking the power requirements into account. Everything from heating to electrode erosion is an issue, and the required capacitors alone would take up significant space. Not saying it's impossible, but it will need a rather drastic rework of the whole principle of the weapon.
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Yes, making specialized weapons does carry the risk that the soldier runs into a situation that he can't deal with. But, he will be able to deal with the situation he runs into most often very effectively.
Attempting to make every weapon be able to perform every role will mean that your soldier will be able to deal with any situation, but he won't be able to deal with any of them as well as if he had a specialized gun. If 80% of the situations he runs into can be dealt with the specialized one, you should give him the specialized one because chances are he'll die in one of those situations anyways.
Ah, but I am not taking away the weapons' primary strengths. Both of these still allow the weapons to function in their original role - the metamaterial rifle will still be able to hock large metal slugs at ludicrous speeds at the enemy, and the FEL rifle will still be able to produce an on-demand laser beam that it can fire continuously. In these cases, the weapon upgrades only serve to expand their usefulness, not make tradeoffs with their primary function.
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Besides, we have swiss army knives in our forces anyways. We call them space wizards.They are rather more like swiss army chainsaw-chucks.
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Completely unrelated: HEY! PIECEWISE! Do robot-body people have things that mimick the functions of glands, like the adrenal glands? Do they suffer/benefit from fight-or-flight?I believe fight-or-flight and some other things are dependent on the
Post by: syvarris on May 22, 2014, 03:18:17 pm
Gauss SMGs face a whole slew of problems even not taking the power requirements into account. Everything from heating to electrode erosion is an issue, and the required capacitors alone would take up significant space. Not saying it's impossible, but it will need a rather drastic rework of the whole principle of the weapon.
The capacitors probably wouldn't take up all that much space, actually. The capacitors plus generators are only the size of a deck of cards in a full gauss rifle, after all.
And you can add capacitors to the side of the gun, rather than increasing the length. The whole point of a CQB SMG is being short, so width isn't a problem. It mostly just hinders where you can store the weapon.
Ah, but I am not taking away the weapons' primary strengths. Both of these still allow the weapons to function in their original role - the metamaterial rifle will still be able to hock large metal slugs at ludicrous speeds at the enemy, and the FEL rifle will still be able to produce an on-demand laser beam that it can fire continuously. In these cases, the weapon upgrades only serve to expand their usefulness, not make tradeoffs with their primary function.
Well, again, I'm stupid and don't understand the principles that your guns work on, and haven't googled them, so for all I really know your suggestions could be obvious no-brainers. Sorry.
Still, the rule of "There's effectiveness, flexibility, and afforability. Pick two." tends to stand strong. Especially when you're working in a world where god dynamically changes the physical laws to keep things balanced.
They are rather more like swiss army chainsaw-chucks.Yeah, that is correct. Still, they're being compared to simple daggers. I'm more affraid of the perfect master of the SWC-C than the perfect master of a dagger.
I believe fight-or-flight and some other things are dependent on theEpinephrine is produced by your adrenal glands, above your kidneys. There's other non-brain glands which produce stuff which affect your brain, I believe, but FOF was the first to come to mind.hippopotamus in your brainhypothalamus gland, which resides somewhere around your brainstem, so robobodies should still have their various hormone-powered reactions
Post by: piecewise on May 23, 2014, 11:19:54 am
Is the monofilament able to be bent at any small degree or is it impossible for... reasons?Well, it's an extremely thin, strong but brittle, filament vibrating at extremely high speed. The reason it's suspended between two points with a metal frame is because it will basically cut anything and the things it can't cut will cause it to break. Mono-filament is quite limited in that way.
Maybe you could ask the Heph people to make you something that is made for piercing.
Yes, your idea does sound better. And using my teammates' electrolasers as a link gun (http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Link_Gun) probably wouldn't find much use.
How many tokens for that plug (I'm assuming it's just two metal cups with things to hold the wires and prevent them from falling off) and the capacitors and other electronics for the thing?
Would it cost extra to have a sensor that would test the current for whether or not it's too powerful, something like a breaker switch?
Could I use that rechargable vehicle battery I have connected to my industrial mining laser or does it not have enough power to make a significant difference?
If not, what would I need to make the red plasma beam fire for twice as long? How much would it all cost?
While we're at it, what's the best energy to size ratio battery I can get installed in this system, how many times more long-lasting is it compared to Gilgamesh's main capacitor and what would that bring the cost to?
Oh, irrelevant, directed more towards our other tinker people designing weapons, but I read that the Russian Military is using some kind of generator that gets its electricity from an explosion to power their prototype railguns. Assuming that that technology has advanced and can create more power than our standard generator/capacitor combo, you could use it to create a gauss gun or pulse laser that would be more powerful at the cost of not having unlimited power.
ahhh Not a lot. The battery is gonna be the real price decider. How big do you want it?
Well, the capacitors and such as for the purpose of making sure it can take pretty much anything you put in. Generally, if it's gonna be too much power, it will probably be kinda obvious. Any sort of normal cabling or electric wire should work; but you should probably avoid plugging straight into some sort of electrical anomaly or something.
You're probably gonna need something much more high density then that battery.
The BEST? You should know thats gonna be silly, both in how effective and how expensive it is.
Oh, in that case just go for the 80mm then. As for how to explain how this is different from a gauss cannon firing in parabolas...Hm. Test how a gauss cannon firing like a mortar differs from using an actual mortar(range, shell accuracy, ease of aiming, etc.). If it's sufficiently different to satisfy the AM, great. If not, check the newbie fund to see if there's enough left to fund building this thing and at least 4 shells(combined with the five I haven't spent, that is). Of there is, save the shcematics to my wristpad and go to the AM to get this thing done and hit the shuttle. If there isn't enough credits left, shrug and just save the project, then log out.It's really basically gonna be the same. You could just strap an adjustable stand to the cannon and get the same effect because the two are mechanically pretty much identical, just a tube that uses gauss coils to fire big metal shells.
As for the Mjolnir shell....check how far out the cone of effect hits out to, and how far it's diameter expands. See if there's an optimal height to airburst the shell for maximum carnage to an area. Finally, load up a battlesuit and an AoW have each of them hit by the Mjolnir to check how well this thing destroys armored targets.
And I don't think there's enough cash in the newbie fund/ don't think miya would be cool with one person hording all of it just to make a weapon he made.
The robodies do a pretty good job mimicking normal bodies, complete with production of various hormones and chemical substances normal in humans.Looking at modern firearms, and taking into account that fuels/propellants in ER have incredible energy density, that little bit of chemicals explosive could give some serious extra ooomph to the weapon, while still being cheap. Sure, adding an extra charging circuit might do the same, but to decide what is most efficient, I'd like to see some empirical testing done, instead of just going by gut feeling. You guys have a shooting range, you can do it.
Eh, true, we don't know how good propellents are in ER. It still stands that regardless of energy density they're inefficient in how they apply it, which is what I was trying to say. More than half of the kinetic force that leaves the barrel is still in the gasses ejected, which means that a gauss weapon with the same bullet velocity and size should have less than half the recoil of a chemical propellant firearm. Muzzle brakes can mitigate this somewhat, but they can't fully solve the problem.
Beyond that, adding propellents to the bullets makes them larger, and more expensive, even if you make them caseless. And you get muzzle flash, which is more a tactical disadvantage but it's certainly a bad one.Because that would be the low-tier answer to mid-tier armor. Sure, it still wouldn't oneshot a battlesuit, but it should at least still do some damage if hit in the right spot. Doesn't have to be gauss per se by the way, just an example, a rocket launcher is also good (though a grenade launcher is more a support weapon, I think). Or do a mix, make it a miniature LESHO but without the guiding systems.
Gauss rifles already do damage against battlesuits if you shoot them in the joints. Not much, but you can cripple them. And as far as sandpapering their armor... well, a Sibillus does that. I thiiink a series of overcharged gauss rounds can sandpaper a battlesuit too, but that was literally fifteen hundred pages of on-ship ago. And nearly two years...
And you're not gonna make a 'low-tier' mini-LESHO which fires a round larger than a gauss rifle. It's a railgun, and uses a fancy (and expensive!) meta-material that reverts to it's original form when it gets shocked.[Anton's Red Hand is] not usable in vaccuum though, or underwater. Or a stiff breeze (though pw probably won't ever take that into account). Not to say it's not good, but perhaps not universally usable enough.
It's still a very good sidearm, and IIRC most of the cost was for the generators, which would be negated if we link suit power to our weaponry. It would be a suitable replacement for our current hand laser.Could be combined with the second idea, since most battles don't go beyond lower medium range anyways. Keep things a bit streamlined.Yeah, to be honest we could probably replace all our weapons with SMGs and we'd be doing better. I'm as much an advocate of battle rifles as anyone, but we really don't fight many battles where range is needed.The only sci-fi it relies on is a metamaterial that instantly transitions from liquid at room temperature to solid with the right conditions, while retaining magnetic properties in both states. Everything else can already be done in-universe, it just needs to be mashed together with enough force. (you know, so it fuses. :P)The piezoelectric shards are a liquid that changes into a crystal under an electric current, I believe.
...This might be a good time to mention that I was thinking of making a piezoelectric SMG.The Mk1's we use are basically oldtimey spacesuits, relatively speaking. We use them because they're the cheapest and simplest thing around.
Really, anything we do to upgrade the Mk1 will just bring it closer to a Mk2, and is unlikely to do so at lesser cost. Though perhaps we could outfit the Mk1 with some of the Mk2's survival features, like medical systems and anti-breach compartmentalization features, at little enough cost to make this sort of a "Mk1.5" suitable as a default suit replacement.
Yeah, that's a good point. I still say the improved generator is important, because not having a power source in every gun would be quite useful. Also, moving the power transfer point to the palm of the hand, so that weapons can be drawn easily and not have to be plugged in. That would be very bad. It might also double as an emergency taser- just slap the enemy with your electrified glove!
And yes, we would need versions of weapons with their own power sources for black ops. Those could be specialized versions that are more expensive, or modification kits.And yet you say chemical explosives in weapons are useless... there is no way to make a compact and deadly SMG with gauss tech. Sometimes, there is no replacing an FN P90.
D:<
Honestly, there's probably no possible way you could have stated that better, considering how much of a P90 fanboy I am. RL P90s would probably be sufficient for our purposes, actually.
But I disagree with you on the gauss weapons. The P90 still has a ten inch barrel, which I'd think is still an effective length for a gauss weapon. We can easily shrink the round to a 5mm too, and on top of that the weapon would probably have lighter recoil than a real P90. Not that that really matters. Fires like a dream already...
Between that, and powering it by suit, we could easily get a high rate of fire. And a gauss weapon can fire more bullets in a magazine by size, because it needs no propellant.
...Anyways, I'm only going to try for a gauss SMG if the PSL (hah) can't be miniaturized into a SMG cheaply. Considering how massively effective the foot long shards are, a two inch shard should still be pretty horrific against a human.Ultimately, a whole lot, I think. A lot of civilians are going to appreciate being guarded by Sods (Yes, making specialized weapons does carry the risk that the soldier runs into a situation that he can't deal with. But, he will be able to deal with the situation he runs into most often very effectively.and Artees) that have weapons advanced enough to handle a wide variety of tasks. The weapons we have, have a certain series of flaws, or perhaps one big flaw - they are too specialized. A gauss rifle, once you choose it, is good for exactly one thing - punching a hole in the thing you point it at. It's really good for it, as long as there's only the one thing - the refire delay means that you can't engage multiple rapidly approaching targets with it, and the shot power means that if you're threatened by something numerous and unarmored - like if Xan decides to flood the universe with Xanlings - then you're wasting your limited ammo on massive overkill of single targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ew_jfj9798). Conversely, the laser rifle is great for sweeping the beam around and killing little things, but it takes a longer, more concentrated and more accurate attack to kill something big with it. The designs I thought of try to address those two points, giving the weapons more versatility so that if a soldier has only one type of weapon, he is less screwed if he encounters a situation his weapon is not intended for. While, hopefully, staying cheap enough for mass production.
Attempting to make every weapon be able to perform every role will mean that your soldier will be able to deal with any situation, but he won't be able to deal with any of them as well as if he had a specialized gun. If 80% of the situations he runs into can be dealt with the specialized one, you should give him the specialized one because chances are he'll die in one of those situations anyways.
Besides, we have swiss army knives in our forces anyways. We call them space wizards.
Also, Radio and Sean, when you're quoting posts could you start writing your message on a newline after the (/quote) tag? As it is, you just have these massive lumps that are hard to parse in the message box.
Completely unrelated: HEY! PIECEWISE! Do robot-body people have things that mimick the functions of glands, like the adrenal glands? Do they suffer/benefit from fight-or-flight?
Otherwise you'd see a rather radical change in the personality of the subject placed in the body. You can turn them off manually though, if you want. Though doing so may have unforeseen effects.
Post by: Toaster on May 23, 2014, 12:47:28 pm
Otherwise you'd see a rather radical change in the personality of the subject placed in the body. You can turn them off manually though, if you want. Though doing so may have unforeseen effects.
Can they be otherwise tampered with? For example, extra adrenaline, trigger a rush of dopamine, oxytocin to feel pleasure, etc.
Post by: tryrar on May 23, 2014, 02:17:09 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 23, 2014, 02:45:38 pm
Essentially, I want to create or manufacture a version of the M320 low-velocity grenade launcher that we have today (link (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m320.htm)) in ER. Materials and whatnot might be different because future science, but the design and basic functionality should be basically the same. The technology involved is relatively simple (doubly so by ER standards), and existing weapons should be able to be modified to mount this weapon (or any other number of rail-style attachments) without much labor or cost involved.
The way I see it, this development could give Con weapon users a lightweight and cheap to manufacture/purchase option that could easily be used to supplement a different primary weapon. As a bonus, different munition types ([link removed by request]) allow this launcher to have some degree of flexibility, if you have a reasonable idea of what sort of situation you are getting yourself into. As an example, for the Mission B that I am currently on, the buckshot style canister allows the weapon to remain viable in an indoor urban scenario against lightly armored targets. The (hopefully) low price point make the weapon readily accessible to newer players, and could give them that little bit of extra "oomph" they want/need to stay relevant. It's obviously not going to be very effective against any sort of heavily armored target, but it's not designed to.
I feel that this is a niche that could stand to be filled, but I'd like the feedback of those who have more experience than I before I put too much more thought into it. So, what do you think? Questions, thoughts, concerns?
Post by: tryrar on May 23, 2014, 03:11:13 pm
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 23, 2014, 04:01:40 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 23, 2014, 04:08:44 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 23, 2014, 04:30:32 pm
@hapah: interesting idea, you might want to coordinate with Hephaustus people since they'll be desiging new basic weapons.Oh sure, I probably will once the missions are over. At the moment I'm more interested in the feedback from the players if this is something that they think would be useful to have. Would it have been good in any past missions? I'm trying to avoid putting a lot of thought into answering a question that nobody's asking, you know? Does the idea have value?
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 23, 2014, 04:37:26 pm
MLRS style launchers that can be attached to my Halberd mech design.@hapah: interesting idea, you might want to coordinate with Hephaustus people since they'll be desiging new basic weapons.Oh sure, I probably will once the missions are over. At the moment I'm more interested in the feedback from the players if this is something that they think would be useful to have. Would it have been good in any past missions? I'm trying to avoid putting a lot of thought into answering a question that nobody's asking, you know? Does the idea have value?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 24, 2014, 07:03:29 am
Vibrate the entire blade section instead of the wire itself.
Seems to me that a material that near instantly snaps back into its original shape would be perfect for a shaped monorazor.
Should be cheap too because youd only need like an Australian 5 cent piece worth of metamaterials.
new seperate project
Spawn a thin fibre obtic cable with a temperature threshold of 4000° Celsius or more.
Spawn a temperature resistant cable holder to hold the wire in a rounded rectangle shape where it feeds back into itself to form an infiniteloop but maintains a distinct laser seeding segment.
Spawn a laser rifle emmitter with no focusing lenses to serve as the hilt and feed its "beam" into the fibre optics seeding segment.
Place a thermostat in the crosspiece and connect it to the laser emmitter to regulate energy flowand coat the top of the crosspiece in that laser absorbing crystal to prevent heat reaching the hilt.
Run a power cable from the laser emmitter designed to connect easily to suit reactors.
Basic idea is that the light from the laser emmitter collects inside the fibre optics and heats it to 3500 degrees and is held at that temperature by the thermostat, then when you hit stuff with the cable it melts right through the target, or your leg if you screw up horribly.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 24, 2014, 08:45:02 am
Post by: Doomblade187 on May 24, 2014, 08:52:03 am
What's vibranium anyway? Searching the board reveals nothing.What Captain America's shield is made out of? I think he's referring to metamaterials of some sort, though. I'm not sure.
Piecewise, if I were to attach a sword point to a monoatomic razor, would the filament go to work on the stab just because of proximity, or would I have to move it once it's in the wound? Also, would makng a three-sided monoatomic blade allow me to 'stab' with the front filament?
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 24, 2014, 10:03:25 am
This might be easier way to get that.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 24, 2014, 10:30:12 am
Also, would it be possible to bend a monoatomic razor's wire with centrifugal force or would the wire not be taut enough to vibrate and cut stuff? I was thinking of having something like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 24, 2014, 10:36:41 am
@U_P: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering_ironSoldering iron =/= laser sword
This might be easier way to get that.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 24, 2014, 12:39:00 pm
@U_P: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering_ironSoldering iron =/= laser sword
This might be easier way to get that.
Indeed, but the principle behind a soldering iron might mean you can get a stretch of 'wire/cable' incredibly hot in an easier way. That's what you're trying to get, right? A stretch of very hot material to slice through things? Or is the usage of lasers absolutely critical to you? :P
Post by: piecewise on May 26, 2014, 11:35:27 am
I dunno man, you ever been hit with one? Feels about the same.@U_P: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering_ironSoldering iron =/= laser sword
This might be easier way to get that.
Yes.Otherwise you'd see a rather radical change in the personality of the subject placed in the body. You can turn them off manually though, if you want. Though doing so may have unforeseen effects.
Can they be otherwise tampered with? For example, extra adrenaline, trigger a rush of dopamine, oxytocin to feel pleasure, etc.
(In before Lars becomes a highly religious, pro weapon, oxy addict. It will be like having rush limbaugh as an inmate....
Now I want to make a character that does nothing but speak in Limbaugh quotes. Though He'd probably get shot fairly fast. )
Eh, no problem, that's fine. It was a cool idea anyways :P. Plus, if I ever get a cannon, I can just adapt the Mjolnir shell to it.True.
Really, it's probably best to get a mission under your belt before you start tinkering up weapons. Not sure if you know what happened to Bishop, but his situation is the perfect cautionary tale for such things.
Bring Halberd Mech design back up.Gonna have to kick the computers' memory bank a bit here, if you catch my drift.
replace the monofilament with a vibranium wire of equal size shaped like a gladius blade.Wait, how are you vibrating the entire blade...yet only using a small amount of material?
Vibrate the entire blade section instead of the wire itself.
Seems to me that a material that near instantly snaps back into its original shape would be perfect for a shaped monorazor.
Should be cheap too because youd only need like an Australian 5 cent piece worth of metamaterials.
new seperate project
Spawn a thin fibre obtic cable with a temperature threshold of 4000° Celsius or more.
Spawn a temperature resistant cable holder to hold the wire in a rounded rectangle shape where it feeds back into itself to form an infiniteloop but maintains a distinct laser seeding segment.
Spawn a laser rifle emmitter with no focusing lenses to serve as the hilt and feed its "beam" into the fibre optics seeding segment.
Place a thermostat in the crosspiece and connect it to the laser emmitter to regulate energy flowand coat the top of the crosspiece in that laser absorbing crystal to prevent heat reaching the hilt.
Run a power cable from the laser emmitter designed to connect easily to suit reactors.
Basic idea is that the light from the laser emmitter collects inside the fibre optics and heats it to 3500 degrees and is held at that temperature by the thermostat, then when you hit stuff with the cable it melts right through the target, or your leg if you screw up horribly.
Also that...I don't have any real knowledge when it comes to physics but something about that seems deeply wrong. Also inefficiently expensive and complex for what it does.
The vibration only effects the wire. Otherwise the thing would buzz right out of your hand.What's vibranium anyway? Searching the board reveals nothing.What Captain America's shield is made out of? I think he's referring to metamaterials of some sort, though. I'm not sure.
Piecewise, if I were to attach a sword point to a monoatomic razor, would the filament go to work on the stab just because of proximity, or would I have to move it once it's in the wound? Also, would makng a three-sided monoatomic blade allow me to 'stab' with the front filament?
Yes, that could work, having a Square shaped blade with a flat "stabbing" point on the end.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 26, 2014, 11:41:29 am
This.Probably something like 15 tokens for the whole thing, with weapons and such. Because they're not terribly complex, kinda like a light battlesuit but with less options. Weapons, at least the normal guns, would all cost about the same. Think..5 tokens.I'M IN TINKER AGAIN
WHY AM I IN TINKER AGAINLook at you throwing around the Armor shrikes and Double edges like I don't have the box set of Blue gender on my shelf AT THIS VERY DAMN MOMENT.Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
So wha, you wanna make a double edge, but one that doesn't make you go kill crazy? Seems reasonable. Hell, they're one of the few mechs that are really sorta realistic in anime. Reasonable size, move quickly using wheels instead of running, etc.
How many tokens would it cost with the normal weapons? And how much would each weapon or option like the double blades cost if the characters decided to change the weapons? And how much would something more like the Armour shrikes before the Double Edge appeared?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 26, 2014, 11:43:57 am
I don't think it'd be any different from animal control tranquilizer darts, except in physical damage delivered. So probably no on the war crime.Depends on if Maldavian mind rot is considered a WMD.
Wait, what?I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.Lars fights by will of the gods! He's more like a Paladin, really... though he's about to take a level in Psionicist.
If my calculations are correct an electron goes about 2km/s when orbiting a proton.I remember reading that if electrons really did orbit protons in a conventional sense, the moving electrical charge would cause a release of...something, I forget what, causing the electron to lose energy and crash into the proton in a tiny fraction of a second. So that number might be meaningless.
You also have the problem that heat from firing might just boil the booze.I chatted with a firearms expert I know, and he said it was doable. He said it depends on how much was getting heated up, but unless it managed to make the alcohol reach its flash point, it would be fine. He compared it to incendiary rounds, in case that helps.
When I explained the situation, he pointed out that is might be pointless. How potent is a few grams of mind rot, anyways?
Quote
Three, You talk about the electromagnetic amp for the purposes of self protection, but I fail to see how it will protect you from being pulverized into subatomic shrapnel when you jerk your body forward at significant values of c, or just c.They say that it's the sudden stop at the end that kills you, but they're wrong. What kills you is that all of you doesn't stop at the same time.
Your feet stop first, but your knees are still moving. If your shins can absorb the force, great; if not, you've got broken legs. Perhaps more importantly, when your skull stops moving, your brain hasn't stopped yet, so it bangs into the skull. I could go on, but the sum total of it is that if you accelerate all your bits and pieces an equal amount at the same time you'll be fine. Of course, at those speeds uneven rounding errors could be fatal, but aside from stuff like that, it'll be good.
Quote
Fourth, ignoring all the others, even if they all worked, you're accelerating to c and then back to 0 in HOW MANY METERS?! I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure that much energy would kill you and everyone around you for several miles with just the shockwave.Unless manips follow Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, it'll be fine.
Presumably, vector manips move material...um...they move stuff without needing to move anything in the opposite direction. Hence, the only thing that could cause issues from that is the stuff actually being accelerated...which can't actually collide with anything, since their electromagnetism is turned off.
The weapons we have, have a certain series of flaws, or perhaps one big flaw - they are too specialized. A gauss rifle, once you choose it, is good for exactly one thing - punching a hole in the thing you point it at. It's really good for it, as long as there's only the one thing - the refire delay means that you can't engage multiple rapidly approaching targets with it, and the shot power means that if you're threatened by something numerous and unarmored - like if Xan decides to flood the universe with Xanlings - then you're wasting your limited ammo on massive overkill of single targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ew_jfj9798). Conversely, the laser rifle is great for sweeping the beam around and killing little things, but it takes a longer, more concentrated and more accurate attack to kill something big with it. The designs I thought of try to address those two points, giving the weapons more versatility so that if a soldier has only one type of weapon, he is less screwed if he encounters a situation his weapon is not intended for. While, hopefully, staying cheap enough for mass production.That is a bit of a problem. Brings a new level of meaning to phrases like "general-purpose machine gun," doesn't it?
And that video is exactly what I was thinking of when I was reading that. Good ol' Bert.
So am I. That would be a good thing if I wasn't on the same team as them.They are rather more like swiss army chainsaw-chucks.Yeah, that is correct. Still, they're being compared to simple daggers. I'm more affraid of the perfect master of the SWC-C than the perfect master of a dagger.
Space magic has its own downsides. Conventional weapons might not be able to damage a given enemy efficiently; space magic probably can, but it's a lot more reliant on luck. Too low and you'll do nothing except give yourself a crippling headache (something that you can't do with a gun), too high and you'll have people trying to fit a 9 to your situation.
Otherwise you'd see a rather radical change in the personality of the subject placed in the body.Given the kind of people we're talking about, this is a bad thing?
Indeed, but the principle behind a soldering iron might mean you can get a stretch of 'wire/cable' incredibly hot in an easier way. That's what you're trying to get, right? A stretch of very hot material to slice through things? Or is the usage of lasers absolutely critical to you? :POf course it is! Lasers make everything cooler! (Except the stuff they heat up to extreme temperatures.)
Alright. Just for fun, let's see if I can design some things I saw online. Unless piecewise rejects this kind of thing because it takes up too much time.
Let's start simple.
Design a sort of belt-fed shotgun built into a gauntlet. (The belt should also be covered by part of the gauntlet.) Also design incendiary shotgun shells. I don't know enough about shotguns or incendiary rounds to see anything terribly problematic with that, so that should be sufficient.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 26, 2014, 11:52:51 am
Eh, I'm kinda out of tokens right now, but just to keep it in mind in case I do get some tokens, what kind of battery system could I get with 5 tokens? What kind of effect would it have? Use the data gathered during the defence of Hephaestus to extrapolate how much more powerful it could make the cannon.Missed me.
Also, would it be possible to bend a monoatomic razor's wire with centrifugal force or would the wire not be taut enough to vibrate and cut stuff? I was thinking of having something like this:Where the red is the monowire and the blue is the thing that makes it spin.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: NAV on May 26, 2014, 04:39:31 pm
How many grams of mind rot can I get for one token?
Post by: tryrar on May 26, 2014, 05:38:12 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 26, 2014, 06:11:27 pm
test effectiveness of vibranium wire gladius against varying materials such as steel and battleplate with slashing and stabbing attacks.
Reset laser sword except for the hilt and power lead.
Place flourescent light tube made of bulletproof heat resistant glass on end of hilt.
Place refector dish in top end and reflector ring in bottom end of tube to reflect light away from the sides of the tube and form a photon condenser.
Hit virtual stuff with laser light globe sword of death.
Post by: Toaster on May 26, 2014, 07:02:12 pm
Wait, what?I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.Lars fights by will of the gods! He's more like a Paladin, really... though he's about to take a level in Psionicist.
Quote
15 Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier
Ammo:NA
Range: NA
Stat requirement: 15 Willpower 12 Charisma
Description: An upgraded version of the Neural Connector that allows the user to freely manipulate the body chemistry of the target. A boring man would simply stop the target's heart or melt their brain, while a clnver man could hijack an alien's body and pilot it around or even completely rewrite their brains and turn them into passive drones. Feedback with this Amp tends to have rather messy results.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 26, 2014, 09:35:00 pm
...
Neat?
Post by: piecewise on May 27, 2014, 09:28:41 am
Gotcha. Alright loaded. Whatcha wanna do with it?This.Probably something like 15 tokens for the whole thing, with weapons and such. Because they're not terribly complex, kinda like a light battlesuit but with less options. Weapons, at least the normal guns, would all cost about the same. Think..5 tokens.I'M IN TINKER AGAIN
WHY AM I IN TINKER AGAINLook at you throwing around the Armor shrikes and Double edges like I don't have the box set of Blue gender on my shelf AT THIS VERY DAMN MOMENT.Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
What do you think Piecewise, is there anything you think I should add or change?
So wha, you wanna make a double edge, but one that doesn't make you go kill crazy? Seems reasonable. Hell, they're one of the few mechs that are really sorta realistic in anime. Reasonable size, move quickly using wheels instead of running, etc.
How many tokens would it cost with the normal weapons? And how much would each weapon or option like the double blades cost if the characters decided to change the weapons? And how much would something more like the Armour shrikes before the Double Edge appeared?
I see gwg is catching up on lost time.I don't think it'd be any different from animal control tranquilizer darts, except in physical damage delivered. So probably no on the war crime.Depends on if Maldavian mind rot is considered a WMD.Wait, what?I'm saying it devalues stats gained by mundane people like Lars and Milno.Lars fights by will of the gods! He's more like a Paladin, really... though he's about to take a level in Psionicist.If my calculations are correct an electron goes about 2km/s when orbiting a proton.I remember reading that if electrons really did orbit protons in a conventional sense, the moving electrical charge would cause a release of...something, I forget what, causing the electron to lose energy and crash into the proton in a tiny fraction of a second. So that number might be meaningless.You also have the problem that heat from firing might just boil the booze.I chatted with a firearms expert I know, and he said it was doable. He said it depends on how much was getting heated up, but unless it managed to make the alcohol reach its flash point, it would be fine. He compared it to incendiary rounds, in case that helps.
When I explained the situation, he pointed out that is might be pointless. How potent is a few grams of mind rot, anyways?QuoteThree, You talk about the electromagnetic amp for the purposes of self protection, but I fail to see how it will protect you from being pulverized into subatomic shrapnel when you jerk your body forward at significant values of c, or just c.They say that it's the sudden stop at the end that kills you, but they're wrong. What kills you is that all of you doesn't stop at the same time.
Your feet stop first, but your knees are still moving. If your shins can absorb the force, great; if not, you've got broken legs. Perhaps more importantly, when your skull stops moving, your brain hasn't stopped yet, so it bangs into the skull. I could go on, but the sum total of it is that if you accelerate all your bits and pieces an equal amount at the same time you'll be fine. Of course, at those speeds uneven rounding errors could be fatal, but aside from stuff like that, it'll be good.QuoteFourth, ignoring all the others, even if they all worked, you're accelerating to c and then back to 0 in HOW MANY METERS?! I'm no physicist but I'm pretty sure that much energy would kill you and everyone around you for several miles with just the shockwave.Unless manips follow Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, it'll be fine.
Presumably, vector manips move material...um...they move stuff without needing to move anything in the opposite direction. Hence, the only thing that could cause issues from that is the stuff actually being accelerated...which can't actually collide with anything, since their electromagnetism is turned off.The weapons we have, have a certain series of flaws, or perhaps one big flaw - they are too specialized. A gauss rifle, once you choose it, is good for exactly one thing - punching a hole in the thing you point it at. It's really good for it, as long as there's only the one thing - the refire delay means that you can't engage multiple rapidly approaching targets with it, and the shot power means that if you're threatened by something numerous and unarmored - like if Xan decides to flood the universe with Xanlings - then you're wasting your limited ammo on massive overkill of single targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ew_jfj9798). Conversely, the laser rifle is great for sweeping the beam around and killing little things, but it takes a longer, more concentrated and more accurate attack to kill something big with it. The designs I thought of try to address those two points, giving the weapons more versatility so that if a soldier has only one type of weapon, he is less screwed if he encounters a situation his weapon is not intended for. While, hopefully, staying cheap enough for mass production.That is a bit of a problem. Brings a new level of meaning to phrases like "general-purpose machine gun," doesn't it?
And that video is exactly what I was thinking of when I was reading that. Good ol' Bert.So am I. That would be a good thing if I wasn't on the same team as them.They are rather more like swiss army chainsaw-chucks.Yeah, that is correct. Still, they're being compared to simple daggers. I'm more affraid of the perfect master of the SWC-C than the perfect master of a dagger.
Space magic has its own downsides. Conventional weapons might not be able to damage a given enemy efficiently; space magic probably can, but it's a lot more reliant on luck. Too low and you'll do nothing except give yourself a crippling headache (something that you can't do with a gun), too high and you'll have people trying to fit a 9 to your situation.Otherwise you'd see a rather radical change in the personality of the subject placed in the body.Given the kind of people we're talking about, this is a bad thing?Indeed, but the principle behind a soldering iron might mean you can get a stretch of 'wire/cable' incredibly hot in an easier way. That's what you're trying to get, right? A stretch of very hot material to slice through things? Or is the usage of lasers absolutely critical to you? :POf course it is! Lasers make everything cooler! (Except the stuff they heat up to extreme temperatures.)
Alright. Just for fun, let's see if I can design some things I saw online. Unless piecewise rejects this kind of thing because it takes up too much time.
Let's start simple.
Design a sort of belt-fed shotgun built into a gauntlet. (The belt should also be covered by part of the gauntlet.) Also design incendiary shotgun shells. I don't know enough about shotguns or incendiary rounds to see anything terribly problematic with that, so that should be sufficient.
HEY GWG, GO DESIGN THIS ON HEPHAESTUS. YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE PLANET TO USE.
Five you could probably add 25-50% more power. It would have the effect of more power. You're not sure if it would make the cannon more powerful or simply allow it to fire more without draining the suit.Eh, I'm kinda out of tokens right now, but just to keep it in mind in case I do get some tokens, what kind of battery system could I get with 5 tokens? What kind of effect would it have? Use the data gathered during the defence of Hephaestus to extrapolate how much more powerful it could make the cannon.Missed me.
Also, would it be possible to bend a monoatomic razor's wire with centrifugal force or would the wire not be taut enough to vibrate and cut stuff? I was thinking of having something like this:Where the red is the monowire and the blue is the thing that makes it spin.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well...that idea works in theory of how to arc the wire. But right now the rotation has all the weight on one side, which means the thing is gonna either tear itself apart or jerk you around like the world's biggest rumble pack.
Based on what GWG said in this thread about the booze not boiling when shot out of a gun, and what Paris said in the OOC thread about liquid mercury bullets successfully poisoning people, I think the mind rot bullets would work.Thing is though, Liquid mercury bullets probably got lodged in people and had time to leak out. Gauss bullets tend not to get lodged.
How many grams of mind rot can I get for one token?
As per the amount you get...I don't have it weighed out. You get a small bottle. The application method is an eyedropper after all.
PW, you missed part of something I had asked. I wanted some details on the Mjolnir's effect on armored targets(I had set up some tests on battlesuits and AoWs before logging off), and the exact area of effect the shockwave cone hits out to. Doesn't matter until I get back to this after the mission, but still something I'd like to know.Depends on if it hits them (Shockwaves won't have too much an effect on them other then knocking them down) And the area of effect depends on how far you consider it effective. As in, the shockwave lessens in intensity as it heads out, so you have to know the lowest point you're willing to still consider it an effective attack.
the "blade" is the rigid vibranium monofilament, the "blade section" is the non vibranium or vibranium tipped limbs that hold it in place. Hence ill only need a tiny coins worth of metamaterial.
test effectiveness of vibranium wire gladius against varying materials such as steel and battleplate with slashing and stabbing attacks.
Reset laser sword except for the hilt and power lead.
Place flourescent light tube made of bulletproof heat resistant glass on end of hilt.
Place refector dish in top end and reflector ring in bottom end of tube to reflect light away from the sides of the tube and form a photon condenser.
Hit virtual stuff with laser light globe sword of death.
You mind drawing me a picture? Because all the ways I'm trying to visualize it don't work, but I might just be thinking about this the wrong way.
So basically it's one of those long, florescent light bulbs, but really strong and really hot because of the light bouncing around inside it?
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 27, 2014, 09:42:38 am
Post by: syvarris on May 27, 2014, 10:04:04 am
See if I can create shoulder mounted rail cannons that can be used in place of the back blades. And also see how one does against a standard sod squad with gauss rifles.
Now you're just being cruel. You can beat a bunch of sods with gauss rifles in an unarmed battlesuit, if you know what you're doing. At least give them equipment that's equal in price to what you have.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 27, 2014, 10:07:02 am
(http://s.productreview.com.au/products/images/milwaukee-m12-cordless-multi-tool_50ede0f1139fa.jpg)
Think of an oscillation grinder like the "renovator multi-tool" but with the cutting tip shaped like a vibranium edged gladius and the blade coming out of the center of the hilt instead of from below it.
As for the cutting blade, imagine an unshaded hand drawn leaf.
The exterior edging is the monofilament, the veins are the wafer thin almost superfluous support struts, the white spaces are air and the stem gets slitted into the oscillator to anchor the blade in place.
Get price check on flourescent death tube and vibranium osvillation gladius, test effectiveness against standard targets and materials.
Yeah, thats the basic gist of my flourescent laser sword, now it just needs to be telescopic and produce visible light.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 27, 2014, 10:38:14 am
How about this monoatomic Spinner Staff, Shredder Sword and Slicer Saucer? Would they work?
Assume I'm using the best quality monoatomic wire I can get and a reasonably strong material for the rest of the weapon, with something a bit stronger for the guards and covers. Assume the spinning parts are spinning as fast as possible without there being a danger of breaking.
How does each of those weapons perform against a sod and against a battlesuit? What are their problems? How do they perform in terms of cutting speed and fragility?
Spoiler: Shredder Sword (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spinner Staff (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Slicer Saucer and Saucer Launcher (click to show/hide)
Yes, I know it's going to be expensive. But man-usable-monoatomic-sword. Only problem I see is that it will need some Dex and Str to use, because unless I use very expensive materials it's going to be heavy and because of the spinning parts it's going to be resistant to twisting the sword because of angular momentum.
Post by: tryrar on May 27, 2014, 05:05:27 pm
To answer the question on effectiveness though, I'd first need to know exactly what damage to the battlesuit(BESIDES knocking it down) it does. Assume direct hit to center of mass/cockpit for this. Then, extrapolate out from this calculation to the point where it doesn't do any damage besides maybe shifting the suit a little
Post by: piecewise on May 28, 2014, 12:15:49 pm
See if I can create shoulder mounted rail cannons that can be used in place of the back blades. And also see how one does against a standard UWM squad.How powerful? Gauss cannon powerful?
Pictures... difficult...phone internets... horrible... drawing impossible...The mono-thing probably wouldn't work.
(http://s.productreview.com.au/products/images/milwaukee-m12-cordless-multi-tool_50ede0f1139fa.jpg)
Think of an oscillation grinder like the "renovator multi-tool" but with the cutting tip shaped like a vibranium edged gladius and the blade coming out of the center of the hilt instead of from below it.
As for the cutting blade, imagine an unshaded hand drawn leaf.
The exterior edging is the monofilament, the veins are the wafer thin almost superfluous support struts, the white spaces are air and the stem gets slitted into the oscillator to anchor the blade in place.
Get price check on flourescent death tube and vibranium osvillation gladius, test effectiveness against standard targets and materials.
Yeah, thats the basic gist of my flourescent laser sword, now it just needs to be telescopic and produce visible light.
As per the spinning thing, I've used tools like that before and they jerk about a fair bit, even when well balanced. I'm saying that you're gonna have to counterbalance the thing to prevent vibration. And it's also gonna be quite hard to use. Since, if you just thrust it forward willy nilly, it's just gonna hit the metal "arm" part and not the cutting surface. I suppose you could run mono-razors up the outside length of the arm. That would work.
It would also be heavy and scary as fuck. Just a giant whirring blade of death on a stick.
The glowing sword...Does it have to be a light tube? This would be so much easier if it was just a piece of metal heated with an electric current. Not that either will do much against things in a quick manner. Heat doesn't really "Chop" through stuff very well.
Thanks for the info. Wonder if Steve would let me connect to the Sword's power supply to test that. What's the worse that can happen? 6+2Shredder:
How about this monoatomic Spinner Staff, Shredder Sword and Slicer Saucer? Would they work?
Assume I'm using the best quality monoatomic wire I can get and a reasonably strong material for the rest of the weapon, with something a bit stronger for the guards and covers. Assume the spinning parts are spinning as fast as possible without there being a danger of breaking.
How does each of those weapons perform against a sod and against a battlesuit? What are their problems? How do they perform in terms of cutting speed and fragility?Spoiler: Shredder Sword (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Spinner Staff (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Slicer Saucer and Saucer Launcher (click to show/hide)
Yes, I know it's going to be expensive. But man-usable-monoatomic-sword. Only problem I see is that it will need some Dex and Str to use, because unless I use very expensive materials it's going to be heavy and because of the spinning parts it's going to be resistant to twisting the sword because of angular momentum.
So a mono-atomic chain saw basically? First thing I'd have to say is "This is a lot of moving parts, potential breaking, malfunction and chance of hurling monoatomic Frisbees into your teammates for something that is gonna have about the same function as a monoblade. I mean, realistically, why is this gonna be more effective? It's not like a chainsaw which has teeth to cut with as it rotates.
Second one is fine, though, again, I'd say you could make something substantially less breakable and more versatile by taking what amounts to a big, metal 20 sided dice and putting a monorazor on each "edge" and then mounting the whole thing on a handle to make a Mono atomic Mace of sorts.
The last one is basically just gonna be what happens when the first one breaks. I'd say there's a bit of a problem with it because the rotation is either going to be slowed rather quick and the looseness of the wire will cause it to snap, or could deflect off because of the spin.
Well, even if my round doesn't affect the armor of a battlesuit very much, I'm pretty damn sure anything that almost instantly flattens one into the ground is still gonna injure the pilot/cause joints and systems to fail.If the round actually strikes the suit and isn't an airburst, it's gonna do a lot of damage. Enough to probably kill the pilot. Air burst that knocks it down, it's hard to say what will happen. Chances are there will be some damage, either to the pilot or some system, but it's not going to be consistent.
To answer the question on effectiveness though, I'd first need to know exactly what damage to the battlesuit(BESIDES knocking it down) it does. Assume direct hit to center of mass/cockpit for this. Then, extrapolate out from this calculation to the point where it doesn't do any damage besides maybe shifting the suit a little
Probably about 30 feet, then.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 28, 2014, 12:21:49 pm
Yeah, gauss cannon powerful.See if I can create shoulder mounted rail cannons that can be used in place of the back blades. And also see how one does against a standard UWM squad.How powerful? Gauss cannon powerful?
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 28, 2014, 12:35:05 pm
Also, only advantage they have is that they can stab. That means that you can cut through a door with some effort for example.
And monoatomic manhack? It's like every teammate's worse nightmare: A remote controlled death frisbee that uses AUX. Who wouldn't want that?))
Compare the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier and the Organo-tissue Dominator Psychokinetic Amplifier. Is their only difference that one is better at modifying flesh at the cost of loosing the mind control capability? Or is there something else, like one can only influence living flesh for example.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 28, 2014, 12:41:15 pm
Quote
The glowing sword...Does it have to be a light tube? This would be so much easier if it was just a piece of metal heated with an electric current.
((Hey, I said that as well, but the man really wants his weapons to glow :P
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 28, 2014, 03:01:50 pm
Heat doesn't really "Chop" through stuff very well.My $0.02 on the matter:
Heat really isn't going to be good for "chopping" things cleanly. It tends to spread too much. It's easy enough to control at lower levels, since the air can dissipate some, but higher temperatures heat up the air too fast. Thus, if you have enough heat to cut something quickly, you have too much heat to "cut" anything with--you tend to destroy things. Also, it's not a great precision weapon in general. If you heat up something quickly, you're probably going to be heating the up a lot, so either you're taking a while to do damage or you're risking overkill for more than brief exposure.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 28, 2014, 05:18:04 pm
The mono-thing probably wouldn't work.The cutting surface is on the outside length of the limbs.
As per the spinning thing, I've used tools like that before and they jerk about a fair bit, even when well balanced. I'm saying that you're gonna have to counterbalance the thing to prevent vibration. And it's also gonna be quite hard to use. Since, if you just thrust it forward willy nilly, it's just gonna hit the metal "arm" part and not the cutting surface. I suppose you could run mono-razors up the outside length of the arm. That would work.
It would also be heavy and scary as fuck. Just a giant whirring blade of death on a stick.
The glowing sword...Does it have to be a light tube? This would be so much easier if it was just a piece of metal heated with an electric current. Not that either will do much against things in a quick manner. Heat doesn't really "Chop" through stuff very well.
Quote
As for the cutting blade, imagine an unshaded hand drawn leaf.Scary whirring death blade is exactly what im aiming for.
The exterior edging is the monofilament, the veins are the wafer thin almost superfluous support struts, the white spaces are air and the stem gets slitted into the oscillator to anchor the blade in place.
Light tube doesnt need visible light, it was a lightsaber joke.
In any case im sure a 3500°C tube will melt through stuff just fine.
But yes needs to be a light tube, im trying to make a laser sword, not a soldering iron.
Price check and standard testing regimen against mk2, steel plate, synthflrsh and battlesuit.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 28, 2014, 05:21:29 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 28, 2014, 05:43:56 pm
As per heat exhaustion, thats why im heating it internally with a photon condenser instead of using the laser directly, the surface temperature and to a lesser extent the radiated waste heat is whats used to melt through targets so its actually going to be hotter on the inside.
Overkill is the best kind of kill, this thing is running 500° hotter than battleplates melting point.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 28, 2014, 09:03:48 pm
The problem is that, if it's heating the target up, it's heating everything else in contact with it as well. Including the air.
Post by: tryrar on May 28, 2014, 10:51:45 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 29, 2014, 06:10:41 am
Post by: piecewise on May 29, 2014, 11:07:51 am
Well if you fire it straight into them you're gonna fuck'em up. Gonna fuck em up good.Yeah, gauss cannon powerful.See if I can create shoulder mounted rail cannons that can be used in place of the back blades. And also see how one does against a standard UWM squad.How powerful? Gauss cannon powerful?
((Monoatomic frisbee is the best kind of frisbee.The lower one has a lesser capacity to effect things. Basically, you can fuck with brain chemistry or nerve impulses or similar things, but if you wanted to, say, cause them to grow another finger you'd have to sit there and bugger about in their genes and then wait 2 months for them to actually grow it.
Also, only advantage they have is that they can stab. That means that you can cut through a door with some effort for example.
And monoatomic manhack? It's like every teammate's worse nightmare: A remote controlled death frisbee that uses AUX. Who wouldn't want that?))
Compare the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier and the Organo-tissue Dominator Psychokinetic Amplifier. Is their only difference that one is better at modifying flesh at the cost of loosing the mind control capability? Or is there something else, like one can only influence living flesh for example.
The other one it's like "Hey, I want to make a new finger! Roll, Screaming, Done!" Flesh-o-mancy, basically.
((Hey, Tavik, maybe try not to quote the whole post if you only need a single sentence. Kinda unwieldy.It will glow. It will glow orange or red.QuoteThe glowing sword...Does it have to be a light tube? This would be so much easier if it was just a piece of metal heated with an electric current.
((Hey, I said that as well, but the man really wants his weapons to glow :P
No, adding cutting surfaces to the metal arms holding the filament on the spinning death blade. Cause right now it is only gonna cut if used JUST right, otherwise it's gonna just smack them with the rotating arm and probably break or rip the weapon out of your hands.The mono-thing probably wouldn't work.The cutting surface is on the outside length of the limbs.
As per the spinning thing, I've used tools like that before and they jerk about a fair bit, even when well balanced. I'm saying that you're gonna have to counterbalance the thing to prevent vibration. And it's also gonna be quite hard to use. Since, if you just thrust it forward willy nilly, it's just gonna hit the metal "arm" part and not the cutting surface. I suppose you could run mono-razors up the outside length of the arm. That would work.
It would also be heavy and scary as fuck. Just a giant whirring blade of death on a stick.
The glowing sword...Does it have to be a light tube? This would be so much easier if it was just a piece of metal heated with an electric current. Not that either will do much against things in a quick manner. Heat doesn't really "Chop" through stuff very well.QuoteAs for the cutting blade, imagine an unshaded hand drawn leaf.Scary whirring death blade is exactly what im aiming for.
The exterior edging is the monofilament, the veins are the wafer thin almost superfluous support struts, the white spaces are air and the stem gets slitted into the oscillator to anchor the blade in place.
Light tube doesnt need visible light, it was a lightsaber joke.
In any case im sure a 3500°C tube will melt through stuff just fine.
But yes needs to be a light tube, im trying to make a laser sword, not a soldering iron.
Price check and standard testing regimen against mk2, steel plate, synthflrsh and battlesuit.
I'm pretty sure that, even at 3500 it's not gonna be 'Cutting" so much as "Pressing it up against stuff and having it melt through." I mean hell, look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VYXv7V8Umw
In other words, it would probably be not very effective against a lot of stuff. But it could work.
Check schematics of standard robobody. Would it be possible to use that hunterbot CPU I still have from mission 7 as a 'brain' for it? Check with Stevebot schematics to learn what other hardware and software is needed to make those things run.Yes, you could do that.
As in just their brains or the whole thing?
Because steve bots are more like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So hardware differences are pretty fucking extensive.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 29, 2014, 11:45:15 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 04:30:16 pm
I can tell im gonna have to try drawing it, my sword blade doesnt spin or have a rotating arm, are you confusing me with paris?
Spoiler: big photo, not to scale (click to show/hide)
The blade moves in, out and side to side but doesnt rotate, spin or move up and down.
Vibranium filament makes up almost the entire outside edge of the blade section.
Lock pins are there to keep the blade from turning and impacting against the inside of the hilt.
Bump the death tube temp up to 5000°C to shut GWG up.
Start new project.
Spawn kinetic amplifier and gauss rifle.
Cannibalize gauss rifle to build an arm mounted self resetting gauss piston.
Place a springloaded plate on end of barrel with trigger behind it so when you punch stuff it fires the gauss round into the back of the plate.
Incorporate kinetic amp into the trigger plate so that when gauss piston fires it strikes the amp a few millimeters before its stopping point and activates the amp firing god knows how much kinetic energy into the target.
Save as gauss piledriver.
can i get price check and testing on all 3 projects please?
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 04:43:38 pm
I cannot watch videos ever due to miniscule data limit.It's a red-hot sphere of nickel slowly melting through a stack of CDs. It has to be reheated partway through.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 04:48:31 pm
Whats the difference between the temp of the nickel and the melting point of the cd though, oh and my sword is self heating so that isnt an issue.I cannot watch videos ever due to miniscule data limit.It's a red-hot sphere of nickel slowly melting through a stack of CDs. It has to be reheated partway through.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 04:59:53 pm
My point was more that it took a long time to burn through just a few inches of CDs. Even longer, since the heat differential between the heat source and the melting thing is smaller.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 29, 2014, 05:13:02 pm
It didn't say, but going by the color it's probably somewhere in the region of 900 degrees Celsius (~1200 K). CDs melt around 600 degrees Celsius (~900 K). That's a solid 33% temperature differential, while your 3500 C (?) to 3000 C would be less than half of that.
My point was more that it took a long time to burn through just a few inches of CDs. Even longer, since the heat differential between the heat source and the melting thing is smaller.
And let's not forget that most plastics melt really rather easily (from a point source, at least). Metal will melt a lot slower, even with the temperature differential being lower. See the example where he tries to melt into lead, which melts at 600K, and barely even marks the metal. Something like battlesuit plate would be even slower - it's designed to resist laser fire, and that means being able to take a massive temperature differential - even with the beam dispersed somewhat, you're still pumping the same amount of energy into the system.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 05:30:28 pm
Theres the issue that those molten globules may have started at a high temp but they didnt maintain it, they would rather quickly cool because they are pumping all their heat into the air and each cd would be serving as a radiator, my tube however replaces that lost heat maintaining its temperature and battleplate is not really shaped to radiate heat.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 07:18:28 pm
First off, we're not saying it won't work, we're saying it won't work well.
Second off, take what Pyro said. High temperature difference between lead's melting point and the RHSN, and it's still slow. Slower than the much lower difference between the RHSN and the CDs, in fact. As Pyro noted, the battlesuit plate--designed to resist, among other things, lasers, which are all about transferring heat--would be even slower to melt.
Third off, the difference between the melting point of battlesuit plate and the heat of your sword is smaller still than the examples provided.
Fourth off, you're arguing with not only science but the GM. And two players who wound up on Hephaestus for a reason.
Post by: NAV on May 29, 2014, 07:29:56 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 07:33:18 pm
Secondly, pyros example uses something with an initial temp not a constant temp, for all you know my tube might produce more heat than striking something takes away. Also battlesuits are designed to disperse lasers using refractive fibers which have no effect on pure heat.
Thirdly, minimum difference which i fully expect to be able to increase through overcharging.
Fourthly, You wound up on haphaestus because you wanted to be there and get free tinker prototypes, not because anyone said "hey go to haphestus because you know science".
And im not arguing with the GM about the light tube, he says itll work albiet slowly against some targets and i accept that.
Im aguing with him over my vibranium oscillation sword which i believe he is misinterpereting.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 07:39:20 pm
There was a robot from mission 7 that fought with a extremely hot club. It cut though metal like butter.One, we don't know how hot it was. Two...wait, what effects did that have on the surroundings? It should have scorched any nearby exposed flesh basically instantly.
Firstly, im not expecting to actually use it against a battlesuit, i merely want the option. Its gonna be fine against the fleshy twats im generally gonna thwack with it.1. It's going to be extreme overkill, actually. And not very efficient overkill, either. Flesh tends to burn slowly rather than melt slowly.
Secondly, pyros example uses something with an initial temp not a constant temp, for all you know my tube might produce more heat than striking something takes away. Also battlesuits are designed to disperse lasers using refractive fibers which have no effect on pure heat.
Thirdly, minimum difference which i fully expect to be able to increase through overcharging.
Fourthly, You wound up on haphaestus because you wanted to be there and get free tinker prototypes, not because anyone said "hey go to haphestus because you know science".
And im not arguing with the GM about the light tube, he says itll work albiet slowly against some targets and i accept that.
Im aguing with him over my vibranium oscillation sword which i believe he is misinterpereting.
2a. No, it doesn't affect it that much. Especially since no, it wouldn't, otherwise your tube would keep heating up.
2b. That doesn't actually affect things that much. The fibers are still heat-resistant, even if the heat is distributed over a slightly larger area.
3. If you're intending to make it reach higher temperatures, you should design it for that, instead of saying you want it to go to 3500 degrees Celsius and then hoping it can safely go higher.
4. Regardless, I do know science. So does Pyro. That's why we're going to be good at tinkering, and why we're able to explain this to you.
5. So, basically you agree with us.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 08:20:38 pm
2a. I have no idea what point you trying to make, especially seeing as you put my point of my light tube continually heating up on the end.
2b. The fibers are reflective, they are there to spread the heat over a large area and slow the rate at which the battleplate heats up, if they have no light to reflect or refract then they cannot spread the heat in any meaningful manner and my death tube retains its efficacy.
3. If i wanna set it low to begin with thats my decision, also fuck safety, if im forced into a melee fight with a battlesuit im probably screwed anyway.
4. You dont need comprehensive knowledge of science to be good at tinker.
5. I agree with piecewise that currently its not as effective as it could be, nothing more.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 08:31:24 pm
2a. I'm making the point that your tube would be losing heat. Not as fast as something that isn't being heated, but it would.
2b. Except that the fibers are still obviously heat-resistant.
3. Your design states that it's supposed to go to 3500. That's kinda my point.
4. Um, yes you do. piecewise requires that your designs work by science.
5. ...That's not what you said a moment ago. Or if it is, you're phrasing it in a way that's trying to make it sound like you're disagreeing with me without being wrong.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 09:09:34 pm
2a. And im making the point that my tube is hotter inside than it is outside therefore the heat inside trying to get outside makes the outside get hotter faster than the stuff its in contact with can cool it.
2b. Heat resistant because it spreads the light and makes it take more energy to melt, sticking it with a undispersable source takes fsr less energy.
3. That its baseline, not its intended maximum.
4. Work by science yes, have anything more than a basic understanding no. Inventiveness > hard knowledge.
5. I dont agree with you because you are arguing shit at face value, i believe i told you not to do that a while back.
6. Im tired of pointlessly arguing and im getting funny looks for playing on my phone instead of rendering this house.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 09:34:00 pm
2a. Then the inside of the tube would heat the outside of the tube before the blow, which negates your point.
2b. No, the filaments need to be heat-resistant to avoid melting while they're distributing heat away.
3. You didn't say that.
4. You can't use that inventiveness if you don't science.
5. Ad hominem. How mature.
6. ...What?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 10:17:19 pm
2b. The filaments reflect light, and thus the lasers heat, away from itself and lessens the amount of energy it has to tolerate.
3. i didnt say a lot of things, because it needs testing before i can tune it and piecewise hasnt run any testing actions yet.
4. I dont need a doctoral certificate in construction or engineering or material sciences to know that diamonds are hard or that silk is strong and slightly elastic or that injecting acid into an enemy troopers brain is bad for their health.
5. Fine let me put it a different way.
I agree with piecewise that heat isnt good at cutting stuff on its own as evidenced by a video i cant watch.
I disagree with you saying that my self heating death tube being forced into a target with all the force an exosuit can muster will be ineffective because a small easily cooled droplet of metal pressured ony by its own weight and floating upon a layer of molten plastic couldnt eat through a stack of cd's. Not the same thing.
6. Im doing voluntary work building houses for poor people, volunteer dicking around on his phon instead of working gives strange impressions.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 10:25:11 pm
2b. No, it still has to deal with heat. Unless battlesuits project an anti-laser forcefield, the heat has to be dealt with (at least briefly) before being spread over the surface.
4. So? Knowledge of science is good if you want to make the really cool stuff...or if you want your cool stuff to not suffer from critical flaws upon the application of physics.
5. It's really the same issue, unless your lightsaber is somehow thick enough to cut through the battlesuit without the heat, in which case why are you bothering? And don't talk about how inapplicable a video must be if you haven't seen it, you made yourself look like an idiot.
6. ...Why aren't you waiting until you get home?
Post by: NAV on May 29, 2014, 10:34:17 pm
Hit human with it. Human dead now.
Why is there so much arguing?
Post by: yobbo on May 29, 2014, 10:37:33 pm
Post by: NAV on May 29, 2014, 10:42:00 pm
on the topic of really hot things, has anyone suggested / developed plasma weaponry yet?There's the plasma projector in the armoury. It shoots blobs of plasma. Don't think anyone's used it yet.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 10:43:11 pm
Really hot stick. Hit a battlesuit in the leg with it. Battlesuit can't move now.Equally true of any stick, if you hit it in the right place.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 29, 2014, 10:44:05 pm
2a: That you are (somewhat) correct about, U_P - if the interior of the tube is hot enough (and the tube itself has sufficient thermal conductive properties), then it can reheat itself faster than heat is taken - depending on what it's in contact with. If you were to press it against something that can cool itself faster than your 'blade' can reheat itself, it will cool.
2b: this is what GWG is right about - the dispersion of the laser only lowers the amount of energy impacting on that specific spot. The battlesuit is still absorbing the full energy of the beam, just not as concentrated - oh, and your heated 'blade' will still have a larger contact area than the somewhat-dispersed laser beam - and will have a much, much lower rate of transfer of energy (as it relies on thermal conduction rather than thermal radiation).
3: Is this really something we should be arguing about? Really? Other than the fact that if he sets the temperature up too much, it'll simply kill anyone in an area by being near them with it active?
4: Hard knowledge is critical to proper inventiveness - why do you think we teach engineers as much, if not more (since it's more varied and still as in-depth) science than scientists? I should know - I'm an engineering student, working towards a base of mechanical before specializing into nuclear.
5: PW does require a large degree of realism. And, realistically, as it stands - your design sucks. It could be improved a lot - but you don't really seem to care, preferring aesthetics. Also, if you ever want to have it, you not only have to pass the Armoury Master - you're probably going to have to pass me. Oh, and just so you know - hitting a target too hard with this would just bounce it or break it (or, if it's strong enough, the target's bones). Heat takes time.
6: This is all I'm going to say on the matter, unless U_P comes up with questions about it rather than just saying he's right and I'm not. GWG, I would advise you leave it too - you've already been muted a few times, let's not endanger more.
Post by: NAV on May 29, 2014, 10:48:47 pm
But with a really hot stick you dont have to hit it as accurately or as hard to disable the joint.Really hot stick. Hit a battlesuit in the leg with it. Battlesuit can't move now.Equally true of any stick, if you hit it in the right place.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 10:53:16 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 29, 2014, 10:55:40 pm
Depends on how hot the stick is.But with a really hot stick you dont have to hit it as accurately or as hard to disable the joint.Really hot stick. Hit a battlesuit in the leg with it. Battlesuit can't move now.Equally true of any stick, if you hit it in the right place.
Okay not arguing anymore but ill just say this because you called me an idiot and i cant let that stand, if you cant see the difference in application between a rudimentary lightsaber and a tiny dollop of molten metal when compared to burning through stuff then im sorry but you sir are completely retarded. Whether or not i have seen the video is irrelevant as you personally informed me of its contents.And you assumed that it was "a tiny dollop" which "couldn't eat through a stack of CDs". Which is not what I said.
And yes, it is relevant because you're trying to use the same physical property. You're just using it with a harder target and a lower heat differential, yet expecting vastly superior results.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 29, 2014, 11:28:14 pm
Dollop is tiny compared to a four foot tube.
Dollop applies no pressure on the melted material.
Dollop loses heat over time.
Dollop wastes heat heating already heated material.
Dollop sits on top of molten material and is greatly slowed in term of heating lower materuals.
Tube applies pressure to the target forcing molten material out of the hole.
Tube maintains its own temperature and can be increased if necessary.
Tube heats unheated material because already heated material is forced away by pressure of tube being pushed into hole.
Tube is always pushing against lowest material.
Shit is not the same.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 30, 2014, 01:16:00 am
It was used in VR at least, and we did have a huge flying plasma cannon helping us in the Battle of Hephaestus.on the topic of really hot things, has anyone suggested / developed plasma weaponry yet?There's the plasma projector in the armoury. It shoots blobs of plasma. Don't think anyone's used it yet.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 30, 2014, 02:02:24 am
I also tried converting my WWII flamethrower design to project plasma but it was just for fun and piecewise never ran the action.It was used in VR at least, and we did have a huge flying plasma cannon helping us in the Battle of Hephaestus.on the topic of really hot things, has anyone suggested / developed plasma weaponry yet?There's the plasma projector in the armoury. It shoots blobs of plasma. Don't think anyone's used it yet.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 30, 2014, 07:46:51 am
No, im really not.True but irrelevant.
Dollop is tiny compared to a four foot tube.
Dollop applies no pressure on the melted material.
Dollop loses heat over time.
Dollop wastes heat heating already heated material.
Dollop sits on top of molten material and is greatly slowed in term of heating lower materuals.
Wrong. Just so wrong. Watch the bloody video or use your head.
True for both.
True for both.
You...kinda already covered this. It's not literally true for your tube, but you'd still be heating up molten material unless you incorporated some kind of slag-excavating device. And the molten material is seen in the video rising and covering the sphere, so it's not slowing the ball that much.
Quote
Tube applies pressure to the target forcing molten material out of the hole.Not much, if you don't want to break your tube. Also not much relevant.
Tube maintains its own temperature and can be increased if necessary.
Tube heats unheated material because already heated material is forced away by pressure of tube being pushed into hole.
Tube is always pushing against lowest material.
Not particularly. Oh, sure, it helps a little. Maybe it'll partly compensate for the lower difference between the heat and the melting point or the general heat resistance of the battlesuit plate.
Nope, that doesn't actually affect it that much. See, the part behind the melty stuff? Still battlesuit plate. Besides, how much is pressure going to affect it? Let's say that somehow you manage to force all the material out. A lot of it is still going to be on some part of the blade. Oops. And it won't be that good, for the simple fact that shoving a plug into a hole isn't anywhere near the most efficient way to remove fluid from it.
No. It isn't.
Quote
Shit is not the same.It's also governed by the same properties. Besides, the differences you cite don't change as much as you seem to think.
Maybe you should add nanotubes?
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 30, 2014, 12:12:36 pm
Would it be possible for someone to rebuild someone else's body with it or would that be bordering the Overload danger area?
EDIT: What's the most one can do with a manipulator like that? Create a plant? Create a mouse? Create a goat? Create a sod? Create a human? Create a giant human?
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 30, 2014, 12:33:47 pm
Quote
As in just their brains or the whole thing?Just what is needed to make them run, yes. Stuff like memory banks and such, the 'internal hardware'. The 'external hardware' (like weapons and stuff) we can deal with later.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on May 31, 2014, 12:26:27 pm
How tall are they? How do those back blades work? How much would a small A.S. strike team affect the difficulty slider?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 31, 2014, 12:43:19 pm
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 31, 2014, 01:01:01 pm
Just out of curiosity, what are the specs on one of these "double edge" armor shrikes?Here you go.
How tall are they? How do those back blades work? How much would a small A.S. strike team affect the difficulty slider?
Work in progress.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
Post by: PyroDesu on May 31, 2014, 01:38:57 pm
Also, that thing is just slightly shorter than an Avatar of War. As in, about half a foot. Another disadvantage - giant target profile.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 31, 2014, 01:40:45 pm
Hey Tavik, did I miss PW telling you how much that thing would cost? Or did you just write that in as an assumption?Yeah, that was PWs estimate.
Also, that thing is slightly taller than an Avatar of War.
And I might make it a bit smaller.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 31, 2014, 01:51:18 pm
Hey Tavik, did I miss PW telling you how much that thing would cost? Or did you just write that in as an assumption?Yeah, that was PWs estimate.
Also, that thing is slightly taller than an Avatar of War.
And I might make it a bit smaller.
All right. No offence, but seeing a cost put in like that looked odd, and I missed the post where he said that.
Any critique of the design from me will come up if/when you send it off to Hephaestus.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 31, 2014, 02:01:12 pm
The Halberd is, as far as I see, mostly the logical continuation of the Mobility Battlesuit variant. Even less armor, even more speed, focus on just the basic weaponry. Result is lower cost, and much lower survivability unless the pilot is really good. With the scale-up to Avatar size, I can readily see the cost being low - it's just a big robot, not synthflesh or even that heavily armed and armored. It has most of the drawbacks of the Avatar, with almost none of the benefits. 15 token might be too little though - PW must have missed the size. About the same as a regular Battlesuit might be fine. 15 token would be alright if it were Battlesuit sized, because it's barely an upgrade over the Mk3 at that point.Hey Tavik, did I miss PW telling you how much that thing would cost? Or did you just write that in as an assumption?Yeah, that was PWs estimate.
Also, that thing is slightly taller than an Avatar of War.
And I might make it a bit smaller.
All right. No offence, but seeing a cost put in like that looked odd, and I missed the post where he said that.
Any critique of the design from me will come up if/when you send it off to Hephaestus.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 31, 2014, 02:05:30 pm
Oh, and Tavik - that armour's going to be not very good. It can take 1 decent shot, and then it'll take time to build up a power differential again - and that's if the shot didn't break through the outer plate (like it's supposed to) in such a way that apart of the plate comes close enough to the inner plate to not let it build a charge. If that happens, you've got tinfoil for armour.
Post by: Tavik Toth on May 31, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
I'd peg it at somewhat smaller than a normal battlesuit for that cost, which would also make one or two points of mine moot. Call it... 2 and a half meters, maybe. Still 8 foot, roughly, compared to a battlesuit's near 10 and a MkIII's probably ~6. And an Avatar's roughly 16. And it actually loses several big features of the MkIII - so the 2-token gap is fine.What armour do you suggest?
Oh, and Tavik - that armour's going to be not very good. It can take 1 decent shot, and then it'll take time to build up a power differential again - and that's if the shot didn't break through the outer plate (like it's supposed to) in such a way that apart of the plate comes close enough to the inner plate to not let it build a charge. If that happens, you've got tinfoil for armour.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 12:28:01 am
While the electroreactive armour is a nice idea, it's also wise to take a page from the people who design vehicles with reactive armours and not let it be the only armour. Any kind of active armour is nice, whether explosive, electric, or whatever - but if someone gets a shell, rocket, laser, whatever, in where the reactive armour isn't - whether it's blown off or recharging, you want passive armour there to take the hit. The same argument could be applied to any kind of shield - possible in the ER universe by automanipulator.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 02:21:31 am
Right now, your best bet is likely thinned battlesuit plate - PW's basically made a miracle material of that, I can attest (I did some stuff involving armour quite a long time ago - battlesuit plate is simply absurdly light for the protection it gives, compared to normal armour materials).Use both?
While the electroreactive armour is a nice idea, it's also wise to take a page from the people who design vehicles with reactive armours and not let it be the only armour. Any kind of active armour is nice, whether explosive, electric, or whatever - but if someone gets a shell, rocket, laser, whatever, in where the reactive armour isn't - whether it's blown off or recharging, you want passive armour there to take the hit. The same argument could be applied to any kind of shield - possible in the ER universe by automanipulator.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 02:44:23 am
And as for the size to cost ratio of the mech, i see no problem with it being 16 feet tall.
Whilst larger than the battlesuit it lacks a number of the systems included in its price such as the thick battleplate armor, claymore defence systems, the electrical conduction defense system, kinetic amps built into the fists and whatever else ive missed or forgotten.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 03:45:44 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 04:15:57 am
I was planning on asking piecewise about all the different variants of battlesuit when i went to buy one and get a comprehensive list of which variant has what but now im leaning towards buying a synthflesh body so that i can fit through doors, perhaps ill be able to update that page at least.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 07:02:26 am
-snip-Use both?
You can if you want, but that's weight added rather than replaced. Depends on how heavy you're willing to let the thing be.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 07:06:44 am
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour and/or Thinned Battle suit plate
Height: Around 16 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades as well. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
Spoiler: Appearance of Standard config (With the pilot begin enclosed of course) (click to show/hide)
Also, I'm more than willing to test it out myself.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 08:44:16 am
Hmmm, i wonder how we could go about using the pill machine to create a 16 foot tall critter with a specialised exoskeleton that we could armor the halberd with.First, we would need to make a 16-foot-tall...not really a homunculus when it isn't little anymore, but you know what I mean. Then, we would need to figure out what pills would give it an exoskeleton and make it more useful than conventionally-manufactured materials.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 08:55:16 am
You could use some kind of enlargement pill. Combine that with some kind of mechanical ant pill for the exoskeleton, constructed out of something like BS plate for armour and you're good.Hmmm, i wonder how we could go about using the pill machine to create a 16 foot tall critter with a specialised exoskeleton that we could armor the halberd with.First, we would need to make a 16-foot-tall...not really a homunculus when it isn't little anymore, but you know what I mean. Then, we would need to figure out what pills would give it an exoskeleton and make it more useful than conventionally-manufactured materials.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 08:56:42 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 09:02:52 am
Giving it a carapace is simple, iou merely start with an insect or place an entire insect or discarded carapace within the machine.Hmmm, i wonder how we could go about using the pill machine to create a 16 foot tall critter with a specialised exoskeleton that we could armor the halberd with.First, we would need to make a 16-foot-tall...not really a homunculus when it isn't little anymore, but you know what I mean. Then, we would need to figure out what pills would give it an exoskeleton and make it more useful than conventionally-manufactured materials.
As for making the exoskeleton out of more useful materials, simply introducing hard to manufacture materials is useful because you can use a single shard to create another quantity of any necessary size.
The problem i the size enlarging in my opinion.
The xeno spit pill provided a constan effect hinting that any pill consumed will continuosly apply the effect of its ingredients this likely means that if you start growing you probably wont stop without external intervention.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 09:03:33 am
We don't have any data on size-changing pills, nor any particular reason to believe they exist. As to the second part, if that works, it's probably not going to be better than battlesuit plate, so I'm a bit fuzzy on why we're bothering...Some kind of chemical cocktail, perhaps something cooked up by the Doctor or made with flesh from the Tunnel Horror could work. Just gotta make sure it has enough flesh/food and that you can make it stop growing.
As for why bother: cost and time. If you can armour a sod with 1/4 BS plate in 1/4 of the time by using 1/20 of the materials that would normally require, then you're turning a profit.
Post by: Toaster on June 02, 2014, 09:10:51 am
enlargement pill
Come up with one of those and we'll be rich!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 09:11:59 am
Giving it a carapace is simple, iou merely start with an insect or place an entire insect or discarded carapace within the machine.
Some kind of chemical cocktail, perhaps something cooked up by the Doctor or made with flesh from the Tunnel Horror could work. Just gotta make sure it has enough flesh/food and that you can make it stop growing.You know what happens when you assume something, right? You get horribly embarrassed when the results of your expensive study turn out less positively than anticipated.
As for making the exoskeleton out of more useful materials, simply introducing hard to manufacture materials is useful because you can use a single shard to create another quantity of any necessary size.Well, first off my question was about making something better than existing materials. Second off, what makes you think that it will be of equal pill-quality as the original?
Quote
The problem i the size enlarging in my opinion.Possible. Let's not bet on it yet, though. And we don't have any Pym Partcile juice, anyways.
The xeno spit pill provided a constan effect hinting that any pill consumed will continuosly apply the effect of its ingredients this likely means that if you start growing you probably wont stop without external intervention.
As for why bother: cost and time. If you can armour a sod with 1/4 BS plate in 1/4 of the time by using 1/20 of the materials that would normally require, then you're turning a profit.Indeed you would be, if we ignore the time and cost of both growing the whatever to let it be pilled and harvested, the time and tools required to harvest and process the plate, and all the stuff that goes into battlesuits or whatever aside from the outer plates.
Get your mind out of the gutter.enlargement pillCome up with one of those and we'll be rich!
Post by: Toaster on June 02, 2014, 09:16:25 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 09:16:33 am
Not only this, but you also now possess a creature capable of organically creating expensive or rare materials over time.We don't have any data on size-changing pills, nor any particular reason to believe they exist. As to the second part, if that works, it's probably not going to be better than battlesuit plate, so I'm a bit fuzzy on why we're bothering...As for why bother: cost and time. If you can armour a sod with 1/4 BS plate in 1/4 of the time by using 1/20 of the materials that would normally require, then you're turning a profit.
Think of it, you create sod with a mythril exoskeleton that it produces by consuming whatever organic material it is given and sheds its shell upon consuming enough mass so that it may grow larger before reinforcing its new exoskeleton with more mythril and repeating the process. For the price of one teeny shard you now have a living factory producing any number of increasingly large and near indestructable armored suits over the duration of its life span.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 09:26:03 am
Assuming the pill machine is even still functioning. It was caught in Grate's original outburst while protected by only a locker door, and the last description of it I remember includes several somewhat important pieces being either missing, smashed, or bent out of shape. And it has never been so much as looked at, nevermind used, again.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 09:28:30 am
Post by: piecewise on June 02, 2014, 09:50:52 am
See how many of the mechs I would need to take down a battlesuit.Not many, with that armament. They're basically just unarmored battle suits with a gauss cannon strapped on. Gauss cannon is gonna cause some damage if it hits, regardless of what you have it strapped to.
I cannot watch videos ever due to miniscule data limit.Oh so the filament itself is made of the stuff?
I can tell im gonna have to try drawing it, my sword blade doesnt spin or have a rotating arm, are you confusing me with paris?My weapon is an oscillation tool.Spoiler: big photo, not to scale (click to show/hide)
The blade moves in, out and side to side but doesnt rotate, spin or move up and down.
Vibranium filament makes up almost the entire outside edge of the blade section.
Lock pins are there to keep the blade from turning and impacting against the inside of the hilt.
Bump the death tube temp up to 5000°C to shut GWG up.
Start new project.
Spawn kinetic amplifier and gauss rifle.
Cannibalize gauss rifle to build an arm mounted self resetting gauss piston.
Place a springloaded plate on end of barrel with trigger behind it so when you punch stuff it fires the gauss round into the back of the plate.
Incorporate kinetic amp into the trigger plate so that when gauss piston fires it strikes the amp a few millimeters before its stopping point and activates the amp firing god knows how much kinetic energy into the target.
Save as gauss piledriver.
can i get price check and testing on all 3 projects please?
Alright. Teammate melter up to 5000.
You know there's an upper limit to what the suits protect from right? They do great against could and pretty good against hot but I'm starting to think you might accidentally kill yourself with radiant heat. Or just set everything around you on fire.
So basically the piledriver from "All you need is kill" or EDF but with an amp on it?
First one...probably too expensive to be worth it.
Glowstick is...probably something like 6 or 7 because of materials.
Piledriver? Like 5. Most of it being the rifle and the amp.
Would healing someone with the Organo-tissue Dominator Psychokinetic Amplifier use Medical or Exotic?
Would it be possible for someone to rebuild someone else's body with it or would that be bordering the Overload danger area?
EDIT: What's the most one can do with a manipulator like that? Create a plant? Create a mouse? Create a goat? Create a sod? Create a human? Create a giant human?
It would use exo to do it and then a medical (or int) roll to do it right. Ie, if you passed the first and failed the second they'd just end up wit a big mass of skin and muscle tissue rather then an organ or whatever.
Depends on the amount of damage, the person attempting, the time constraints, etc. It's possible but extremely, extremely hard.
Creating living things out of a mass of equivalent chemicals would be...theoretically possible. But try this for a second: Try to imagine how a pocketwatch works. Visualize every single piece and all its relations to the the other. Now do that for the entire human body down to a molecular level.
Not a lot per bot, it's basically just a very compact, powerful computer running AI taken from the snowglobe. The only real difficulty is making things that small and good takes time and special processes, and getting the AI adapted to it takes a bit too. So manufacturing time is the real bottleneck here.QuoteAs in just their brains or the whole thing?Just what is needed to make them run, yes. Stuff like memory banks and such, the 'internal hardware'. The 'external hardware' (like weapons and stuff) we can deal with later.
enlargement pill
Come up with one of those and we'll be rich!
You know, if we just went to planets and said "Every man who joins our cause gets a pill that makes your dick twice as big" we'd never run out of soldiers. That is a depressing fact, but a fact none the less.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 10:03:00 am
Hey now, revolutions are expensive to run. If we can gather mass and lift up some problems, then we can raise the mast on many new projects. Think of the growth potential! You don't want our guns to be weak and floppy, do you?No, but I do doubt the cost-effectiveness of the manufacturing methods.
Not only this, but you also now possess a creature capable of organically creating expensive or rare materials over time.If we can make a creature with a regenerating high-quality mythril exoskeleton that can be harvested without killing it, and if the mythril can be harvested at a decent rate, then yes. This isn't what you were proposing earlier sounded like, though.
Think of it, you create sod with a mythril exoskeleton that it produces by consuming whatever organic material it is given and sheds its shell upon consuming enough mass so that it may grow larger before reinforcing its new exoskeleton with more mythril and repeating the process. For the price of one teeny shard you now have a living factory producing any number of increasingly large and near indestructable armored suits over the duration of its life span.
Assuming the pill machine is even still functioning. It was caught in Grate's original outburst while protected by only a locker door, and the last description of it I remember includes several somewhat important pieces being either missing, smashed, or bent out of shape. And it has never been so much as looked at, nevermind used, again.I will be greatly annoyed with piecewise in general and the Doctor in specific if the pill machine is completely nonfunctional.
You know, if we just went to planets and said "Every man who joins our cause gets a pill that makes your dick twice as big" we'd never run out of soldiers. That is a depressing fact, but a fact none the less.Only if they believed us. And the market is full of fakes.
Post by: Toaster on June 02, 2014, 10:05:17 am
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 10:06:01 am
But aye.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 10:13:33 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 10:15:25 am
Yeah just the filament. It doesnt even need to be double sided, simply the front edge and a V for the point would suffice.I cannot watch videos ever due to miniscule data limit.Oh so the filament itself is made of the stuff?
I can tell im gonna have to try drawing it, my sword blade doesnt spin or have a rotating arm, are you confusing me with paris?My weapon is an oscillation tool.Spoiler: big photo, not to scale (click to show/hide)
The blade moves in, out and side to side but doesnt rotate, spin or move up and down.
Vibranium filament makes up almost the entire outside edge of the blade section.
Lock pins are there to keep the blade from turning and impacting against the inside of the hilt.
Bump the death tube temp up to 5000°C to shut GWG up.
Start new project.
Spawn kinetic amplifier and gauss rifle.
Cannibalize gauss rifle to build an arm mounted self resetting gauss piston.
Place a springloaded plate on end of barrel with trigger behind it so when you punch stuff it fires the gauss round into the back of the plate.
Incorporate kinetic amp into the trigger plate so that when gauss piston fires it strikes the amp a few millimeters before its stopping point and activates the amp firing god knows how much kinetic energy into the target.
Save as gauss piledriver.
can i get price check and testing on all 3 projects please?
Alright. Teammate melter up to 5000.
You know there's an upper limit to what the suits protect from right? They do great against could and pretty good against hot but I'm starting to think you might accidentally kill yourself with radiant heat. Or just set everything around you on fire.
So basically the piledriver from "All you need is kill" or EDF but with an amp on it?
First one...probably too expensive to be worth it.
Glowstick is...probably something like 6 or 7 because of materials.
Piledriver? Like 5. Most of it being the rifle and the amp.
I actually thought that the vibranium sword would be cheaper than the glowstick, a thimble full of material can be stretched a for over a kilometre if you make it thin enough and i only need a few feet. The rest of the weapon is simply a recyclyed monorazor hilt.
Yeah, ive been considering adding directional heat shields but simply setting everything around me on fire is good too.
Never watched either of those, i simply desired a purely dexterity based weapon with a preset/presettable damage level.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 10:31:09 am
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 10:43:51 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 10:57:24 am
On the sword it would cost 5 tokens because its a custom job requiring a gauss rifle to be repurposed, on haphaestus it can be manufactured cheaper by building it using a standardized gauss piston and even incorporated into prosthetic limbs and mecha forces.
Reasoning:
Mass produced variant is intended to be incorporated into the owners gear and would not need the reloading system, overcharge circuitry or its own generator as it can simply draw its power direcly from whatever system it is incorporated into.
Post by: Hapah on June 02, 2014, 11:27:33 am
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 11:29:11 am
I'd probably take the thing out on a mission for field tests before trying to put it into mass production, but that's just me.The sword or my mech?
Post by: Hapah on June 02, 2014, 11:30:42 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 11:34:53 am
I'd probably take the thing out on a mission for field tests before trying to put it into mass production, but that's just me.The sword or my mech?
Pretty sure he means my piledriver.
The effectiveness of kinetic amps is already proven against most targets using standard dex+str rolls, my piledriver negates the need for a strength roll and astronomically increases their damage output making them effective against even heavily armored targets.
Its effectiveness is pretty much gauranteed if you can get close enough to use it.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 11:38:17 am
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-srLF1qKwDBw/TXYDqOMb6OI/AAAAAAAACGI/haXeOOWJ_d0/s1600/alteisen.jpg)
Post by: Hapah on June 02, 2014, 11:38:22 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 11:41:32 am
With actual mockup wars if need be. I mean, the dead Sod bodies can be recycled back into the 'pits, right?
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 11:44:40 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 11:45:42 am
Heh, gauss piledriver. Now we need shoulder-mounted mass titanium flechette launchers, three-barrel rotary autocannon, and a head-mounted thermal blade.Edit: stupid phone posted before i even had a chance to write my comment.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-srLF1qKwDBw/TXYDqOMb6OI/AAAAAAAACGI/haXeOOWJ_d0/s1600/alteisen.jpg)
Is it bad i want to make a working scal model of this for the sole purpose of feeding it into the pill machine?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 12:03:08 pm
Is it bad i want to make a working scal model of this for the sole purpose of feeding it into the pill machine?Is it bad that I want to have a working model of this:
(http://www.collectiondx.com/files/MAX_GOKIN_BIG-O_1_30CM_APRIL2011_MAXFACTORY_39800.jpg)
...just so we can nickname it "The Big Ow"?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 12:30:09 pm
Only if its bad that i want to make this:Is it bad i want to make a working scal model of this for the sole purpose of feeding it into the pill machine?Is it bad that I want to have a working model of this:
...
...just so we can nickname it "The Big Ow"?
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120612135749/marvel-cinematic-universe/images/c/c6/THOR-DestroyerConcept.png)
...Just because i suspect i know how.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 02, 2014, 01:06:28 pm
Quote
Not a lot per bot, it's basically just a very compact, powerful computer running AI taken from the snowglobe. The only real difficulty is making things that small and good takes time and special processes, and getting the AI adapted to it takes a bit too. So manufacturing time is the real bottleneck here.
Since I have the Hunterbot CPU already, how much would it cost to have a standard robobody outfitted with it and supporting computer hardware? And how would that thing work mechanics-wise?
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 01:21:47 pm
Pyro, would Simus be willing to build a test model of the Halberd for field testing?
I will put it thus - you still have that thing equivalent in size to an Avatar. Cut it down to something that might be more appropriate for the quoted cost and practicality (that is, somewhat smaller than a battlesuit if you want it to have the dexterity and agility you think it has - and not be a massive target, passive and/or reactive armour or not), and you'll have to contact Simus IC. We do have free communications with the Sword, after all.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 01:43:05 pm
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour and/or Thinned Battle suit plate
Height: Around 13 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades or 2x Gauss cannon or 1x Gauss cannon and 1x Shoulder blade. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
PW, how much of a difference in cost is this setup?
.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 02:19:15 pm
With actual mockup wars if need be. I mean, the dead Sod bodies can be recycled back into the 'pits, right?Even if we ignore the damage to the landscape and equipment, and assume a 100% reclamation rate, our flesh pits have a finite output (which is why Project Asartes will be using homunculli rather than full sods if nonhuman subjects are unsuitable for initial testing stages). We'll lose the time.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 02:36:24 pm
What about changing some physical properties? For example, how hard would it be to make one's skin supertough by changing it into some kind of advanced polymer?
Could you use the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier to achieve effects similar to the above by very very slowly (some weeks perhaps) manipulating the DNA of the entire body and then triggering some sort of cellular regeneration to replace all old cells with new ones (that will have the modified structure resulting from the new DNA)? Essentially something similar to Ivan's transformation but more slow and controlled?
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 03:48:19 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 03:58:30 pm
Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 04:26:26 pm
Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 02, 2014, 04:37:11 pm
It's still possible to make a cheaper, lighter, and faster battlesuit by still keeping the battlesuit and making it cheaper, lighter, and faster. Reducing the size will mean a lot less space remains for the suit's workings because of the pilot.Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 04:40:55 pm
Pretty much this.It's still possible to make a cheaper, lighter, and faster battlesuit by still keeping the battlesuit and making it cheaper, lighter, and faster. Reducing the size will mean a lot less space remains for the suit's workings because of the pilot.Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 02, 2014, 05:12:12 pm
Pretty much this.It's still possible to make a cheaper, lighter, and faster battlesuit by still keeping the battlesuit and making it cheaper, lighter, and faster. Reducing the size will mean a lot less space remains for the suit's workings because of the pilot.Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Going by what Tavik posted he wants (though I'm interested in what his 'Auto Repair Kit' consists of), 7-8 feet is more than enough space. And, keep in mind - if you have it battlesuit-sized, then you have to deal with the fact that you have a battlesuit-sized target with nowhere near battlesuit-scale protection.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 05:21:00 pm
I remember the auto repair kit being mentioned earlier near the start of this thread.Pretty much this.It's still possible to make a cheaper, lighter, and faster battlesuit by still keeping the battlesuit and making it cheaper, lighter, and faster. Reducing the size will mean a lot less space remains for the suit's workings because of the pilot.Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Going by what Tavik posted he wants (though I'm interested in what his 'Auto Repair Kit' consists of), 7-8 feet is more than enough space. And, keep in mind - if you have it battlesuit-sized, then you have to deal with the fact that you have a battlesuit-sized target with nowhere near battlesuit-scale protection.
Edit: it's used in one or two of smurfs creations. So you should ask him
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 06:03:46 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 02, 2014, 06:21:52 pm
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 02, 2014, 06:37:12 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 06:43:02 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 02, 2014, 07:19:18 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 02, 2014, 08:17:58 pm
And where has Pyro given you that impression? Quote it.
EDIT: I've been told not to continue this argument, so I won't.
Post by: Corsair on June 03, 2014, 01:02:53 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 03, 2014, 01:29:31 am
Kinetic amps are three token apiece.
:\
Post by: Kriellya on June 03, 2014, 01:54:45 am
We can dream :P
Post by: Doomblade187 on June 03, 2014, 03:56:54 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 03, 2014, 04:28:01 am
The new name of the project is MACS, Mission-Adaptable Combat Suit, and I can't believe I didn't think of it as soon as mission funds were mentioned. Scratch that, as soon as the actual worth of tokens was established. I've thought about the MCS concept at length, and it really didn't add up to much. The suit won't be too attractive to most people because no one person is going to want to own all the different equipment packs, and the cost of any given module is going to be hard to justify. Plus with the different equipment setups, the expenses just aren't making this good. The mission funds help with it - you could purchase just what you need for the mission at hand, and return it later, but all in all that still had the problem of leaving it as equipment you had to functionally own. But then I kinda remembered the original idea, and looked back at my slightly communist roots.
See, the tokens aren't so much currency as they're effectively government brownie points. They're a way to prevent inexperienced and untrusted personnel from getting their hands of toys that are too powerful. So when you really think of it this way, the idea is blithely obvious.
The MACS itself is a two-component system - it consists of a suit, and a license. The basic suit is a fancy Mk3 without rockets, as described earlier, and may as well cost less than it - around 10 or 9 token. The license is to use the MACS equipment stand, and it makes up the rest of the cost, totaling around 15 token. When it really comes down to it, all the interchangeable modules give the user the same degree of "power" - be it straight-up firepower or mobility or other functions. So with the purchase of the license, the user gains access to ALL of the MACS equipment, free to select any loadout at any time they can access the equipment stand. This bypasses the matter of having to own any specific part, and saves on the hassle of figuring out individual costs - the license acts as a personal mission fund.
So... yeah. Hopefully I can make this work without it becoming as silly as some of the original designs.
Spoiler: Segway Mk2? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 03, 2014, 04:49:55 am
Hey would it be possible to create a toned down version of the Doc's baseball-bat of wind-shear with 5 token or would it be ineffective?Miya could always build you a decent bat (as in, with good weight distribution and such). Kinetic amps you'll have to buy yourself though.
Maybe ask the Doc if you could loan his bat?
@Sean: interesting idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement in terms of mechanics. for example, if you take license X, but break the equipment, what then?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 03, 2014, 05:14:01 am
@Sean: interesting idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement in terms of mechanics. for example, if you take license X, but break the equipment, what then?The suit is repaired as per normal arrangements. If you somehow lose the equipment but not the suit, you might need to reinstate your license (it'd be up to Steve to revoke it depending on circumstances). Generally, this setup means that you don't purchase the equipment so much as the right to use the equipment, and since you can only use one set of equipment with every one suit, it doesn't strictly speaking matter which set of equipment you use so long as you make it back intact-ish. There are a number of good mobility options to facilitate the "returning" bit for mission packs that don't provide flight. ^_^
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 03, 2014, 05:27:03 am
@Sean: interesting idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement in terms of mechanics. for example, if you take license X, but break the equipment, what then?The suit is repaired as per normal arrangements. If you somehow lose the equipment but not the suit, you might need to reinstate your license (it'd be up to Steve to revoke it depending on circumstances). Generally, this setup means that you don't purchase the equipment so much as the right to use the equipment, and since you can only use one set of equipment with every one suit, it doesn't strictly speaking matter which set of equipment you use so long as you make it back intact-ish. There are a number of good mobility options to facilitate the "returning" bit for mission packs that don't provide flight. ^_^
It could work, but you'll need Steve's (read: PW's) help with setting that up. And it'll mean another thing to keep track of (though, if you make 'MACS equipment license' a buyable item, and it's completely apart from the base suit itself, it could work).
You might have trouble 'balancing' the various packs though, since they'll need to be worth about as much, and they might be limited to whatever price you set the license (I somehow doubt PW will let you use 10 tokens worth of equipment for a 5 token license, for example.)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 03, 2014, 05:39:31 am
Yeah, that's pretty much the plan. The base suit is, like I said, some 9 or 10 token (it's a souped-up Mk2 with exoskeleton), and with the license purchased the total cost is around 15. The power of the suit is judged by the sum total of its cost, not the cost of the license - i.e. the Mk3 at 13 token is less powerful than the fully equipped MACS at 15. The "power" is different for every loadout, and customizable.@Sean: interesting idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement in terms of mechanics. for example, if you take license X, but break the equipment, what then?The suit is repaired as per normal arrangements. If you somehow lose the equipment but not the suit, you might need to reinstate your license (it'd be up to Steve to revoke it depending on circumstances). Generally, this setup means that you don't purchase the equipment so much as the right to use the equipment, and since you can only use one set of equipment with every one suit, it doesn't strictly speaking matter which set of equipment you use so long as you make it back intact-ish. There are a number of good mobility options to facilitate the "returning" bit for mission packs that don't provide flight. ^_^
It could work, but you'll need Steve's (read: PW's) help with setting that up. And it'll mean another thing to keep track of (though, if you make 'MACS equipment license' a buyable item, and it's completely apart from the base suit itself, it could work).
You might have trouble 'balancing' the various packs though, since they'll need to be worth about as much, and they might be limited to whatever price you set the license (I somehow doubt PW will let you use 10 tokens worth of equipment for a 5 token license, for example.)
The two flight packs - rocket and atmosphere - are the "default" - they combine the normal benefits of MACS with the flight of the Mk3, so you end up having the "same but better" thing according to cost. The non-flight packs have rather less agility, but add on more specialized functions, effectively compensating for the loss of flight with extra power. Melee makes you punch like a Battlesuit, Heavy Weapons allows you to shoot like one, while Ranged and Support packs offer more elaborate benefits, with various add-on packs supplementing them. The sum total of your firepower+defense+mobility never exceeds that of a Battlesuit, never even really approaches it, but the MACS allows you to match or exceed it in some shape or form, depending on what you need on a given mission.
And of course you are still able to fit into most corridors. :P
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 03, 2014, 06:17:23 am
@ Tavik: if I were you, I'd ask PW how small the suit could be made without losing functionality and for the same price. After that, check how much the price would increase if you made it smaller than that but retaining all it's functionality (due to needing higher grade components). Then you have a good basis to either remove equipment and downsize it, but keeping cost the same, or let it be big but with the same equipment and cost, or small with all functionality but increased cost. Basically, it'll give you a better chance to find that sweet spot where you can fill a niche without being redundant.Would you think that somewhere in the middle of a battlesuit and avatars size be good?Hey would it be possible to create a toned down version of the Doc's baseball-bat of wind-shear with 5 token or would it be ineffective?Miya could always build you a decent bat (as in, with good weight distribution and such). Kinetic amps you'll have to buy yourself though.
Maybe ask the Doc if you could loan his bat?
@Sean: interesting idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement in terms of mechanics. for example, if you take license X, but break the equipment, what then?
Post by: Toaster on June 03, 2014, 07:46:23 am
The Doktor's Mace of Windu works by using lots of kinetic amps.
But is it purple?
I see what you did there
Post by: Toady One on June 03, 2014, 10:56:14 am
Post by: piecewise on June 03, 2014, 01:00:18 pm
... I want a baneblade... A Leman Russ, at least? A Sentinel? Or maybe a little Chimaera?Eh, not a whole lot. 3-4 tokens.QuoteNot a lot per bot, it's basically just a very compact, powerful computer running AI taken from the snowglobe. The only real difficulty is making things that small and good takes time and special processes, and getting the AI adapted to it takes a bit too. So manufacturing time is the real bottleneck here.
Since I have the Hunterbot CPU already, how much would it cost to have a standard robobody outfitted with it and supporting computer hardware? And how would that thing work mechanics-wise?
And you'd get an adaptive, dangerous robot which runs on absolute logic.
Mechanics wise it would be an NPC with some bonuses and unique behaviors.
What about using the Organo-tissue Dominator Psychokinetic Amplifier to transform, rather than create something? For example, how hard would it be to transform a tiger into a lion?Yes, though difficulty is dependent on level of change. For instance, you want it to just look like a lion, or you want it to be genetically identical to one?
What about changing some physical properties? For example, how hard would it be to make one's skin supertough by changing it into some kind of advanced polymer?
Could you use the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier to achieve effects similar to the above by very very slowly (some weeks perhaps) manipulating the DNA of the entire body and then triggering some sort of cellular regeneration to replace all old cells with new ones (that will have the modified structure resulting from the new DNA)? Essentially something similar to Ivan's transformation but more slow and controlled?
Yes, though you might have to worry about stuff like rejection and other natural processes if you don't do it right.
Yes, though, again, it would take a long time and you'd need to be very careful.
(wiped out three report-magnet posts in which the posters failed to be respectful)Sorry about that. These technicians, man. One minute they're talking about theoretical physics, the next minute there's a knife fight. The ER Skunkworks is a dangerous place.
Post by: Caellath on June 03, 2014, 01:18:08 pm
The effectiveness of kinetic amps is already proven against most targets using standard dex+str rolls, my piledriver negates the need for a strength roll and astronomically increases their damage output making them effective against even heavily armored targets.
Its effectiveness is pretty much gauranteed if you can get close enough to use it.
You might want to check a similar project I made with Milno around 1~1.5 year ago. It's also an arm-mounted piledriver with a kinetic amp tip, but I had to create an adhesive surface because there was a problem with the whole thing kicking back, if I remember correctly. Then I added an easy-release system to leave the whole thing pounding away at the target while the owner escapes. piecewise gave something around 6 or 9 token back then, I forget.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 03, 2014, 02:02:02 pm
Basic Variant Test:
Create a basic spider-bot chassis, just a small radio controlled drone with 4 scout-eye-like legs, a very basic CPU, a very small laser-cutting-torch and a generator to power the whole thing, including the laser.
Don't bother with programming them, just have the VR do its thing for now, like there's some kind of perfectly programmed computer giving them orders.
Spawn a UWM ship like the one we took over or larger. Crew hostile and alerted but they don't know for sure that they've been boarded.
Spawn 10 spiderbots in various locations around the ship while giving them no information about the layout of the ship. Sometimes they're spawned all in one location, sometime in groups and sometimes each in a different location.
Have the bots go from one area of the ship to the other.
They're going to use info gained from other drones to help navigation. Movement pattern similar to telepathic ants (they split up when they don't know where to go but if an exit is detected they all know about it and use it).
They're going to use their lasers to get through small (or large if necessary) obstacles or attacking people if necessary. Make them smart enough to bypass or disable defences (cutting their power supply with their lasers for example) like turrets if they detect them.
Run the above test many times. Problems? Any places the bots can't reach or any situations where they are decimated or stumped?
((Since there's nothing pressing going on on the ship and this is a kinda-big project, I thought I'd divide it into multiple tests/posts to make it easier. Would you prefer it if I described the general idea first?))
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 03, 2014, 02:39:26 pm
Updated.Missed me Piecewise.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour and/or Thinned Battle suit plate
Height: Around 13 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades or 2x Gauss cannon or 1x Gauss cannon and 1x Shoulder blade. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
PW, how much of a difference in cost is this setup?
Post by: piecewise on June 05, 2014, 10:26:55 am
New project: Terror Drones
Basic Variant Test:
Create a basic spider-bot chassis, just a small radio controlled drone with 4 scout-eye-like legs, a very basic CPU, a very small laser-cutting-torch and a generator to power the whole thing, including the laser.
Don't bother with programming them, just have the VR do its thing for now, like there's some kind of perfectly programmed computer giving them orders.
Spawn a UWM ship like the one we took over or larger. Crew hostile and alerted but they don't know for sure that they've been boarded.
Spawn 10 spiderbots in various locations around the ship while giving them no information about the layout of the ship. Sometimes they're spawned all in one location, sometime in groups and sometimes each in a different location.
Have the bots go from one area of the ship to the other.
They're going to use info gained from other drones to help navigation. Movement pattern similar to telepathic ants (they split up when they don't know where to go but if an exit is detected they all know about it and use it).
They're going to use their lasers to get through small (or large if necessary) obstacles or attacking people if necessary. Make them smart enough to bypass or disable defences (cutting their power supply with their lasers for example) like turrets if they detect them.
Run the above test many times. Problems? Any places the bots can't reach or any situations where they are decimated or stumped?
((Since there's nothing pressing going on on the ship and this is a kinda-big project, I thought I'd divide it into multiple tests/posts to make it easier. Would you prefer it if I described the general idea first?))
New project: Terror DronesBiggest problems are the following:
Basic Variant Test:
Create a basic spider-bot chassis, just a small radio controlled drone with 4 scout-eye-like legs, a very basic CPU, a very small laser-cutting-torch and a generator to power the whole thing, including the laser.
Don't bother with programming them, just have the VR do its thing for now, like there's some kind of perfectly programmed computer giving them orders.
Spawn a UWM ship like the one we took over or larger. Crew hostile and alerted but they don't know for sure that they've been boarded.
Spawn 10 spiderbots in various locations around the ship while giving them no information about the layout of the ship. Sometimes they're spawned all in one location, sometime in groups and sometimes each in a different location.
Have the bots go from one area of the ship to the other.
They're going to use info gained from other drones to help navigation. Movement pattern similar to telepathic ants (they split up when they don't know where to go but if an exit is detected they all know about it and use it).
They're going to use their lasers to get through small (or large if necessary) obstacles or attacking people if necessary. Make them smart enough to bypass or disable defences (cutting their power supply with their lasers for example) like turrets if they detect them.
Run the above test many times. Problems? Any places the bots can't reach or any situations where they are decimated or stumped?
((Since there's nothing pressing going on on the ship and this is a kinda-big project, I thought I'd divide it into multiple tests/posts to make it easier. Would you prefer it if I described the general idea first?))
1.The bots are easy to kill. So, anyone with a gun or heavy object can smash them up.
2.They navigate most places just fine, but static defenses give them problems.
3.The more of them that get destroyed, the harder it is for them to function.
For greater success I recommend the following changes:
More powerful cutting tools: Basically, let the buggers burrow through the ship. Saves them from being seen by passive defenses and lets them do damage on the way.
Mass deployment: Use lots. Like 100s or more.
Updated.Missed me Piecewise.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour and/or Thinned Battle suit plate
Height: Around 13 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades or 2x Gauss cannon or 1x Gauss cannon and 1x Shoulder blade. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
PW, how much of a difference in cost is this setup?
Hmm. Well the battle suit plate shield is gonna put some strain on the budget. The bot itself, along with the blades are cheap. Gauss cannons are gonna be normal cost. Really the suit itself is gonna be like 12 or so, and the weapons you chose to use with it will range from like 3 to over 10. So which of those weapons you chose to use is going to make a big difference. I wouldn't recommend trying to use them all.Updated.Missed me Piecewise.
"Halberd"Rapid Battle Unit
Cost: 15 tokens. 5 for individual weapons.
Armour: Electro Reactive Armour and/or Thinned Battle suit plate
Height: Around 13 ft (how many meters is that?) tall for most configurations.
Weapons: 1 Coilgun or equivalent rapid fire weapon along with a choice of either a under barrel rocket launcher or a bayonet type weapon. 1 mech scale dagger or sword type weapon for melee. 2x shoulder blades or 2x Gauss cannon or 1x Gauss cannon and 1x Shoulder blade. 1 optional wrist mounted shield made of battle suit plate.
Movement: Roller blade style system mounted on feet to allow for quick movement across most surfaces with ability to be stowed inside the feet to allow for movement on rougher surfaces such as a wreckage strewn fields or mountains.
Cargo: 1 Pilot and/or AI controlled.
Support: Auto repair kit.
Operation: This configuration is designed to rapidly engage enemy forces while being supported by other Halberds and other friendly units including infantry and air support. And if equipped with a under barrel rocket launcher, it can engage enemy armour units if it has to.
Advantages: Speed, adaptability and same basic parts used in all configuration.
Disadvantages: not as heavily armoured as units such as a battlesuit.
PW, how much of a difference in cost is this setup?
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 05, 2014, 10:48:06 am
Test how a Halberd des against a UWM tank.
Standard Configuration:
1x Coilgun w under-barrel rocket launcher
2x Shoulder blades.
1x Sword
1x battlesuit plate shield
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 05, 2014, 11:28:57 am
Quote
Would you think that somewhere in the middle of a battlesuit and avatars size be good?
I'd personally advise you to keep it as small as possible. Between Mk.III and battlesuit at most. Because the bigger it gets, the more situations the pilot/wearer won't be able to advance or enter.
Also, I think going for either a decent shield or body armor would be better than trying to get both, for cost reasons.
Quote
QuoteSince I have the Hunterbot CPU already, how much would it cost to have a standard robobody outfitted with it and supporting computer hardware? And how would that thing work mechanics-wise?
Eh, not a whole lot. 3-4 tokens.
And you'd get an adaptive, dangerous robot which runs on absolute logic.
Mechanics wise it would be an NPC with some bonuses and unique behaviors.
Interesting. And if we were to integrate the CPU into an existing robobody or suit which already has a pilot, would that be the same cost, or lower? And how would that work? Would the occupant get a support ai (like a less sexy Cortana) and would it have any bonuses to rolls or something?
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 05, 2014, 12:54:14 pm
I didn't plan for it to do things like entering buildings. I planned for it to assist other units like battlesuits in a combine arms style or even on teams of 5-6 Halberds, either all the same configuration if its a normal team or even several different configurations in each team if possible. Several teams can also work together if one team doesn't have the equipment to face a threat.QuoteWould you think that somewhere in the middle of a battlesuit and avatars size be good?
I'd personally advise you to keep it as small as possible. Between Mk.III and battlesuit at most. Because the bigger it gets, the more situations the pilot/wearer won't be able to advance or enter.
Also, I think going for either a decent shield or body armor would be better than trying to get both, for cost reasons.QuoteQuoteSince I have the Hunterbot CPU already, how much would it cost to have a standard robobody outfitted with it and supporting computer hardware? And how would that thing work mechanics-wise?
Eh, not a whole lot. 3-4 tokens.
And you'd get an adaptive, dangerous robot which runs on absolute logic.
Mechanics wise it would be an NPC with some bonuses and unique behaviors.
Interesting. And if we were to integrate the CPU into an existing robobody or suit which already has a pilot, would that be the same cost, or lower? And how would that work? Would the occupant get a support ai (like a less sexy Cortana) and would it have any bonuses to rolls or something?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 05, 2014, 02:01:55 pm
Quote
I didn't plan for it to do things like entering buildings. I planned for it to assist other units like battlesuits in a combine arms style or even on teams of 5-6 Halberds, either all the same configuration if its a normal team or even several different configurations in each team if possible. Several teams can also work together if one team doesn't have the equipment to face a threat.
Aha, that helps. Yeah, in that case battlesuit size should be fine.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 05, 2014, 02:07:16 pm
13ft isn't much higher, correct?QuoteI didn't plan for it to do things like entering buildings. I planned for it to assist other units like battlesuits in a combine arms style or even on teams of 5-6 Halberds, either all the same configuration if its a normal team or even several different configurations in each team if possible. Several teams can also work together if one team doesn't have the equipment to face a threat.
Aha, that helps. Yeah, in that case battlesuit size should be fine.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 05, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
13ft isn't much higher, correct?QuoteI didn't plan for it to do things like entering buildings. I planned for it to assist other units like battlesuits in a combine arms style or even on teams of 5-6 Halberds, either all the same configuration if its a normal team or even several different configurations in each team if possible. Several teams can also work together if one team doesn't have the equipment to face a threat.
Aha, that helps. Yeah, in that case battlesuit size should be fine.
I'd aim for 10-11 feet max, personally. But again, you should ask pw how small the suit, in its current form, could be made, so we know what to compare.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 05, 2014, 02:24:38 pm
I might make a variant based off of the melee armour shrike and the other one used before the double blade.13ft isn't much higher, correct?QuoteI didn't plan for it to do things like entering buildings. I planned for it to assist other units like battlesuits in a combine arms style or even on teams of 5-6 Halberds, either all the same configuration if its a normal team or even several different configurations in each team if possible. Several teams can also work together if one team doesn't have the equipment to face a threat.
Aha, that helps. Yeah, in that case battlesuit size should be fine.
I'd aim for 10-11 feet max, personally. But again, you should ask pw how small the suit, in its current form, could be made, so we know what to compare.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 06, 2014, 06:08:51 am
I know this might seem useless but bear with me, this thing has a purpose as part of a larger project..
What's the most expensive sensory equipment I could get my hands on/can find in the VR? Some kind of Manipulator-based sensor?
Take a battlesuit-sized exoskeleton. Fill it with all manners of the most powerful sensory equipment I can find. Everything I can fit on it that wouldn't make it ridiculously expensive. Seismic, electro-resistive, sonar, spectrometers, radar, anything. Be sure to put them in the appropriate place for best reception (seismic sensors in the legs for example).
Then add a helmet that can save and process the gathered data and can output it as something useful that humans can understand and use.
Spawn two NPCs in a maze with sections made of random materials. One NPC has the sensor suit, the other a normal battlesuit-sized exoskeleton. Then spawn a bunch of Sod guards inside the maze hostile to them.
Is there any measurable increase in success with using the sensor suit to escape the maze? (no cheating/jumping over/breaking walls) Any materials the sensor suit can't see through?
Post by: piecewise on June 10, 2014, 10:14:08 am
A small test before I continue working on the drones:
I know this might seem useless but bear with me, this thing has a purpose as part of a larger project..
What's the most expensive sensory equipment I could get my hands on/can find in the VR? Some kind of Manipulator-based sensor?
Take a battlesuit-sized exoskeleton. Fill it with all manners of the most powerful sensory equipment I can find. Everything I can fit on it that wouldn't make it ridiculously expensive. Seismic, electro-resistive, sonar, spectrometers, radar, anything. Be sure to put them in the appropriate place for best reception (seismic sensors in the legs for example).
Then add a helmet that can save and process the gathered data and can output it as something useful that humans can understand and use.
Spawn two NPCs in a maze with sections made of random materials. One NPC has the sensor suit, the other a normal battlesuit-sized exoskeleton. Then spawn a bunch of Sod guards inside the maze hostile to them.
Is there any measurable increase in success with using the sensor suit to escape the maze? (no cheating/jumping over/breaking walls) Any materials the sensor suit can't see through?
What do you want to be sensing and on what scale? Before I give you an electron scanning microscope and you want the Hubble Telescope.
Uh, I think you're gonna have a bit of a problem if you put them on a mobile platform. I mean, the seismic sensor is going to be picking up the vibrations of the legs continuously doing micro corrections to keep standing, let alone what happens when you move. Being the most sensitive things possible also means they're gonna be very prone to interference. Plus some of them, like gravity detectors, take several hours to calibrate themselves to any particular area.
I understand what you're trying to do here, but as it is you're gonna end up with a 120 token suit covered in easily damaged sensors that would need to be completely shut down and stationary for hours before being able to use all its sensors. And the thing about it is, you're not really going to be able to get a computer set up in such a way as to interpret all this stuff and combine it into a single screen without that single screen just being a fucking mess. I mean here, watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xmo7iJ7KA
They have a giant array designed specifically to see through walls and it still only sort of works and produces blobby images that have to be interpreted by the user. With all those things in tandem and with all the meaningless background noise, it would require a specially trained operator to get anything out of it.
sorry that didn't really work out. Have a consolation prize
http://cyberneticzoo.com/
Cheaper, or about the same, really. But what you'd get, as it is, is a sort of "Autonomous mode" you could turn on or off. It wouldn't really be able to function as support, at least as it is now. It would be all on or all off. Could be useful for a battle suit, though, if the pilot dies or needs to get out for some reason.QuoteWould you think that somewhere in the middle of a battlesuit and avatars size be good?
I'd personally advise you to keep it as small as possible. Between Mk.III and battlesuit at most. Because the bigger it gets, the more situations the pilot/wearer won't be able to advance or enter.
Also, I think going for either a decent shield or body armor would be better than trying to get both, for cost reasons.QuoteQuoteSince I have the Hunterbot CPU already, how much would it cost to have a standard robobody outfitted with it and supporting computer hardware? And how would that thing work mechanics-wise?
Eh, not a whole lot. 3-4 tokens.
And you'd get an adaptive, dangerous robot which runs on absolute logic.
Mechanics wise it would be an NPC with some bonuses and unique behaviors.
Interesting. And if we were to integrate the CPU into an existing robobody or suit which already has a pilot, would that be the same cost, or lower? And how would that work? Would the occupant get a support ai (like a less sexy Cortana) and would it have any bonuses to rolls or something?
The shield is also optional so some people might not use it.If it's effective against a battle suit a tank isn't gonna stand much of a chance.
Test how a Halberd des against a UWM tank.
Standard Configuration:
1x Coilgun w under-barrel rocket launcher
2x Shoulder blades.
1x Sword
1x battlesuit plate shield
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 10, 2014, 10:54:55 am
Project name: One-eyed King (O.K.)
Sub-project name: Sandman's shroud
Take an exoskeleton. Put two sandbags on it. Then have the bags' sand be computer controlled (should be possible since it already is in a way).
There are three dials, an on/off switch and an emergency trigger.
Once the system is turned on, the sand will exit the bags and begin circling around the user. When turned off, it will return to the user's bags. Sensors will ensure that the sand keeps a small but safe distance from the user, so that he doesn't get hurt.
One dial controls how fast the sand is rotating, one controls the distance from the user and one controls the density of the sand cloud (how close the sand particles are to each other).
The emergency trigger causes some of the sand around the user to fly towards the exoskeleton and then solidify a short distance from it to form armour. (Not too short though, don't want to entomb the exoskeleton. Think of it as spaced armour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_armour).) The longer the trigger is pressed, the more sand is used to form the armour and the thicker it gets. (This would work better if it was automated but I'm keeping it manual for now.)
Spawn the above system and search through sensors until I find something that can see through the sand cloud.
Would sonar work? Or a combination of different sensors? Or sensor pods further away from the exoskeleton, like eye stalks?
Then test the result against sods with laser and gauss rifles.
Is unhardened sand effective protection against those weapons?
What about hardened?
Is it effective in reducing visibility of the enemy?
Is the sand effective at killing sods or at least blinding them long enough for the suit to close in and kill them?
Any problems other than that it can't work in vacuum?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 10, 2014, 11:01:58 am
Any problems other than that it can't work in vacuum?((Well, for one sonar isn't going to work (or rather it'll interfere), and the sand from the bags we manufacture can't be disengaged once formed into a shape. So if you form armor out of it, it'll solidify around you like a sarcophagus.))
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 10, 2014, 12:45:37 pm
Post by: Doomblade187 on June 10, 2014, 01:49:09 pm
Looking at the three-edged monoatomic sword concept, would the top/stabbing blade be effective against sods? How big a target would I have to reach before I can't effectively stab anymore? Assume a blade that fits on top of the two side monorazor frames, with sharpened corners.
Finally, can I get a price-check on this idea?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 11, 2014, 09:18:21 am
Explore the possibility of retaining gauss rifle functionality without increasing the price by allowing the trigger plate to be rotated and locked in place above the barrel or by moving the barrel above the piston and reshaping the coils as necessary.
How are gauss coils configured anyway?
Are they a single big coil wrapped around the barrel or are they multiple coils operating on the sides of the barrel that work together to push the round along?
Post by: piecewise on June 12, 2014, 09:55:30 am
Ah, I see. I was trying the reverse tinker procedure of trying to see what I could get and then building off of that towards my goal. Let me try the normal tinker procedure: Stating my goal and then looking for equipment to achieve it.
Project name: One-eyed King (O.K.)
Sub-project name: Sandman's shroud
Take an exoskeleton. Put two sandbags on it. Then have the bags' sand be computer controlled (should be possible since it already is in a way).
There are three dials, an on/off switch and an emergency trigger.
Once the system is turned on, the sand will exit the bags and begin circling around the user. When turned off, it will return to the user's bags. Sensors will ensure that the sand keeps a small but safe distance from the user, so that he doesn't get hurt.
One dial controls how fast the sand is rotating, one controls the distance from the user and one controls the density of the sand cloud (how close the sand particles are to each other).
The emergency trigger causes some of the sand around the user to fly towards the exoskeleton and then solidify a short distance from it to form armour. (Not too short though, don't want to entomb the exoskeleton. Think of it as spaced armour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_armour).) The longer the trigger is pressed, the more sand is used to form the armour and the thicker it gets. (This would work better if it was automated but I'm keeping it manual for now.)
Spawn the above system and search through sensors until I find something that can see through the sand cloud.
Would sonar work? Or a combination of different sensors? Or sensor pods further away from the exoskeleton, like eye stalks?
Then test the result against sods with laser and gauss rifles.
Is unhardened sand effective protection against those weapons?
What about hardened?
Is it effective in reducing visibility of the enemy?
Is the sand effective at killing sods or at least blinding them long enough for the suit to close in and kill them?
Any problems other than that it can't work in vacuum?
ehhhhhhhhhh.
EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Nah. I don't really want to just let you control the stuff with no rolls.
Have design be sent to Hept for testing. Then leave tinker and enter mission replay.Okie dokie. That would be back on ship.
I know I'm on mission, but just to save some time later, I have a few things I'd like to test.NOPE NOPE NOPE
Looking at the three-edged monoatomic sword concept, would the top/stabbing blade be effective against sods? How big a target would I have to reach before I can't effectively stab anymore? Assume a blade that fits on top of the two side monorazor frames, with sharpened corners.
Finally, can I get a price-check on this idea?
I ALLOW THIS EVERYONE WILL BE DESIGNING SHIT WHILE ANYWHERE.
NO NO NO.
It's the multiple coils one.
And yeah, thats possible but it's gonna have rather shit aim.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 12, 2014, 11:03:07 am
Create 5 civic defender's longcoats.
One is normal, one has the ablative anti-laser paint, one has solid sand scales, one has a coating of sand and one has scales made of that energy absorbent material from the anomalous planetoid mission (if it is available on VR).
Test the 5 against lasers and gauss rifles. Which one's the most effective? Any problems (too heavy, etc.)?
Civic defender's longcoat is 3 tokens. Civic defender's longcoat with ablative anti-laser paint is 5 tokens. Are the other modified longcoats as cheap?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 11:23:49 am
Secondly, assuming one is willing to increase the price, what is the absolute minimum size the suit would be (retaining all functionality).
Post by: piecewise on June 14, 2014, 11:37:41 am
((Damn. I really thought I had designed something good there. Oh well, I'll find something else to e-mail to Simus.))A coating of living sand is gonna do grrrrrrrreat against lasers.
Create 5 civic defender's longcoats.
One is normal, one has the ablative anti-laser paint, one has solid sand scales, one has a coating of sand and one has scales made of that energy absorbent material from the anomalous planetoid mission (if it is available on VR).
Test the 5 against lasers and gauss rifles. Which one's the most effective? Any problems (too heavy, etc.)?
Civic defender's longcoat is 3 tokens. Civic defender's longcoat with ablative anti-laser paint is 5 tokens. Are the other modified longcoats as cheap?
And that hexagonal stuff from the planetoid is gonna be best against the gauss
The sand grows when exposed to the light, so that might cause problems in the long run.
The hex stuff is pretty heavy, though not stupidly so. Just enough that it might effect normal people.
Oh, you could shrink the legs, move the sensors to the chest, and it could get to 8 feet or so.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 11:53:55 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 14, 2014, 12:21:45 pm
He replied, but skipped the quote. Look at the last line in his post.How small could tavik his new mech design (the blue gender one) be made? Assuming cost stays the same and with the same capabilities, what's the minimum height it could be?
Secondly, assuming one is willing to increase the price, what is the absolute minimum size the suit would be (retaining all functionality).
Missed me I think.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 12:39:39 pm
He replied, but skipped the quote. Look at the last line in his post.How small could tavik his new mech design (the blue gender one) be made? Assuming cost stays the same and with the same capabilities, what's the minimum height it could be?
Secondly, assuming one is willing to increase the price, what is the absolute minimum size the suit would be (retaining all functionality).
Missed me I think.
Oh yeah, somehow I thought that was part of Paris' action. Thanks.
Anyways, we can now safely assume the suit could be downsized by a third without losing anything, as by the gm's words. That would bring it just below a battlesuit I think.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 14, 2014, 02:01:59 pm
He replied, but skipped the quote. Look at the last line in his post.How small could tavik his new mech design (the blue gender one) be made? Assuming cost stays the same and with the same capabilities, what's the minimum height it could be?
Secondly, assuming one is willing to increase the price, what is the absolute minimum size the suit would be (retaining all functionality).
Missed me I think.
Oh yeah, somehow I thought that was part of Paris' action. Thanks.
Anyways, we can now safely assume the suit could be downsized by a third without losing anything, as by the gm's words. That would bring it just below a battlesuit I think.
That's... actually what I said when I discussed it with Tavik.
Pretty much this.It's still possible to make a cheaper, lighter, and faster battlesuit by still keeping the battlesuit and making it cheaper, lighter, and faster. Reducing the size will mean a lot less space remains for the suit's workings because of the pilot.Tavik, try 7-8 feet.7-8 feet sounds like a large exosuit. Battlesuit seems fine with 10.
He's trying to make something cheaper, lighter, and faster than the battlesuit - so 'large exosuit' size range is perfect for it.
Going by what Tavik posted he wants (though I'm interested in what his 'Auto Repair Kit' consists of), 7-8 feet is more than enough space. And, keep in mind - if you have it battlesuit-sized, then you have to deal with the fact that you have a battlesuit-sized target with nowhere near battlesuit-scale protection.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 02:05:05 pm
Quote
That's... actually what I said when I discussed it with Tavik.
Indeed you did, good job. I just asked so that we now have hard, conclusive proof that the suit could be downsized without loosing anything whatsoever. Just wanted to move this out of speculation and into hard data territory.
Nevertheless, good analysis, since it's exactly what the gm says as well.
Post by: PyroDesu on June 14, 2014, 02:08:29 pm
QuoteThat's... actually what I said when I discussed it with Tavik.
Indeed you did, good job. I just asked so that we now have hard, conclusive proof that the suit could be downsized without loosing anything whatsoever. Just wanted to move this out of speculation and into hard data territory.
Nevertheless, good analysis, since it's exactly what the gm says as well.
I'd point out that I got yelled at for it (admittedly, not by Tavik), but that got scrubbed by the Toad.
And I'm still wondering about that 'auto repair kit'. If nobody clarifies that, I would bet that the GM will take it to mean a stripped-down advanced emergency kit with the medical equipment removed (auto, repair kit), rather than what I think some people might think it means (auto repair, kit).
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 14, 2014, 02:33:55 pm
Post by: smurfingtonthethird on June 14, 2014, 03:48:28 pm
Sent Smurf a PM asking them to explain what the Auto Repair kit is exactly once they come online.
once they come online.
WE ARE THE SMURF
Weirdness aside, the auto repair kit was originally a box full of robotic arms that was supposed to repair minor hull/track/turret damage on the Stag tank, so that it could be fixed fairly quickly if it got disabled. Not sure how that'll translate over to a battlesuit.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 14, 2014, 04:01:25 pm
Body damage?Sent Smurf a PM asking them to explain what the Auto Repair kit is exactly once they come online.once they come online.
WE ARE THE SMURF
Weirdness aside, the auto repair kit was originally a box full of robotic arms that was supposed to repair minor hull/track/turret damage on the Stag tank, so that it could be fixed fairly quickly if it got disabled. Not sure how that'll translate over to a battlesuit.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 14, 2014, 04:17:59 pm
Regardless of the above, as an experiment, see if I could design an armour plate similar to the ones used on spaceships, but replacing the anti-laser layer with a sand layer and the anti-gauss layer with an energy absorbent hex layer.
Compare with normal space armour in terms of durability and price, if possible.
Is there any black goo danger with using living sand armour or have we developed any ways to counteract that?
If yes, is there any danger of that happening on Hephaestus due to the stuff we used during boarding?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 04:36:19 pm
Quote
I'd point out that I got yelled at for it (admittedly, not by Tavik), but that got scrubbed by the Toad.
Ach, let the troubles of the past stay in the past. Instead, let us focus on new and exciting ways to murder enemies in the future! That's much more fun.
@tavik: out of curiosity, now that we have proof the suit could be made smaller for no downside, are you going to adjust it accordingly, or leave it as it is? And if the second, why exactly? Just wondering, because a bigger suit that doesn't have extra things it can do just means you're giving your enemies a bigger target.
Post by: Tavik Toth on June 14, 2014, 04:48:36 pm
Why? Because it's meant to be in between a avatar and battlesuit in size. But cheaper-ish than a avatar.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 14, 2014, 04:56:03 pm
Going to keep it as it is.
Why? Because it's meant to be in between a avatar and battlesuit in size. But cheaper-ish than a avatar.
I understand what you are trying to do. But why make it bigger if that serves no purpose? What tactical advantage would you get just from 'being bigger'? I mean, in real life they to make their tanks and such as low as possible, so they won't get hit.
I just don't see how being larger, in and of itself, would help you.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on June 14, 2014, 05:05:50 pm
Post by: syvarris on June 14, 2014, 07:16:57 pm
Anyways, about the powered gloves, and making them safe: I'm not certain what it's called, but there's a method to monitor the integrity of a conductive surface by having electricity flow into it from one side, and measuring it at the other. It can detect holes and other abnormalities in the material.
I want to set up something like that, and as long as it doesn't detect any abnormalities, it transmits a 'safe' signal. If it stops transmitting, the power is cut. To make sure it stays working, at all times have a very tiny amount of electricity flowing, just enough to measure the integrity, but not enough to damage a person. Also, make sure it's possible to override the shutdown, although make sure it gives a BIG warning.
Additionally, see if I can make a similar power transmission surface over the glove's knuckles, so that a person can punch rather than grab.
Lastly, I want to know if the crystal rifle can penetrate milnoplate/longcoats when fired in automatic mode. And can it penetrate synthflesh sufficiently to damage the braincase?
Post by: PyroDesu on June 15, 2014, 12:23:40 am
Going to keep it as it is.
Why? Because it's meant to be in between a avatar and battlesuit in size. But cheaper-ish than a avatar.
I understand what you are trying to do. But why make it bigger if that serves no purpose? What tactical advantage would you get just from 'being bigger'? I mean, in real life they to make their tanks and such as low as possible, so they won't get hit.
I just don't see how being larger, in and of itself, would help you.
It would also be questioned (and to those watching who would prefer to perceive me saying that as a threat - you know who you are - you may as well hold your tongue) by Simus. She doesn't care about 'because it's meant to be that way'. She'll see that it could easily be made smaller with no reduction to tactical value, and indeed, a net tactical gain, and not applying that will lose points with her.
Keep in mind - she's extremely utilitarian, and is not unbiased.
Sent Smurf a PM asking them to explain what the Auto Repair kit is exactly once they come online.Weirdness aside, the auto repair kit was originally a box full of robotic arms that was supposed to repair minor hull/track/turret damage on the Stag tank, so that it could be fixed fairly quickly if it got disabled. Not sure how that'll translate over to a battlesuit.
Might want to query the GM as to whether it would work at all.
Post by: piecewise on June 16, 2014, 08:46:38 am
Has the hexagonal stuff been analysed and reproduced yet? Or is it something that has to be done on Hephaestus or on the Sword's R&D?It's not been reproduced, though there has been some research done on it. It's gonna come under the responsibility of the HEP boys now.
Regardless of the above, as an experiment, see if I could design an armour plate similar to the ones used on spaceships, but replacing the anti-laser layer with a sand layer and the anti-gauss layer with an energy absorbent hex layer.
Compare with normal space armour in terms of durability and price, if possible.
Is there any black goo danger with using living sand armour or have we developed any ways to counteract that?
If yes, is there any danger of that happening on Hephaestus due to the stuff we used during boarding?
This new version seems much much more capable, though at the current time, creating it will be more expensive since the facilities for mass production are not in place.
As long as you use the artificial stuff the lab boys made, no. It might grow bigger than you want and jam joints or something, but it won't go full gray goo.
I'm making two posts, one in Tinker, one in Heph. I figured it makes sense in-universe, considering we're supposed to have massive amounts of time thanks to the jumps. If that's not okay, ignore this post, and just do the Heph one.I don't know why you'd need to post in both? Just post it all in the heph thread.
Anyways, about the powered gloves, and making them safe: I'm not certain what it's called, but there's a method to monitor the integrity of a conductive surface by having electricity flow into it from one side, and measuring it at the other. It can detect holes and other abnormalities in the material.
I want to set up something like that, and as long as it doesn't detect any abnormalities, it transmits a 'safe' signal. If it stops transmitting, the power is cut. To make sure it stays working, at all times have a very tiny amount of electricity flowing, just enough to measure the integrity, but not enough to damage a person. Also, make sure it's possible to override the shutdown, although make sure it gives a BIG warning.
Additionally, see if I can make a similar power transmission surface over the glove's knuckles, so that a person can punch rather than grab.
Lastly, I want to know if the crystal rifle can penetrate milnoplate/longcoats when fired in automatic mode. And can it penetrate synthflesh sufficiently to damage the braincase?
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 16, 2014, 09:28:56 am
If yes, could I add some sort of pressure release tube in each armour plate that will take the extra sand and store it in sacks?
Then, if the ship comes under attack, it can release the extra sand it has gathered over time while moving, like an octopus with its ink. It'll be like an anti-laser shield-cloud that also partially blocks sight. Probably usable only when you know you're boned and want to try running away or if you absolutely must dodge or if the enemy has laser superiority but not gauss superiority. Still, it's free, so why not find a use for it besides repairing armour? (Because, as history has shown us, space battles tend to end messily and with many destroyed ships and not many damaged ships, so you'll probably won't need to repair armour much).
Post by: piecewise on June 18, 2014, 10:52:19 am
Ah, so the fact that even "dead" sand slowly grows means that the extra sand will have to be periodically "shaven off" so that the armour doesn't burst from the inside?
If yes, could I add some sort of pressure release tube in each armour plate that will take the extra sand and store it in sacks?
Then, if the ship comes under attack, it can release the extra sand it has gathered over time while moving, like an octopus with its ink. It'll be like an anti-laser shield-cloud that also partially blocks sight. Probably usable only when you know you're boned and want to try running away or if you absolutely must dodge or if the enemy has laser superiority but not gauss superiority. Still, it's free, so why not find a use for it besides repairing armour? (Because, as history has shown us, space battles tend to end messily and with many destroyed ships and not many damaged ships, so you'll probably won't need to repair armour much).
I assumed you wanted the live sand, but suspended in paint and then painted on, so that when the laser hits, it would burn away the covering paint and expose the sand, letting it absorb the energy. OR something like that. Dead sand won't produce any more sand, nor will it absorb light and energy.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 18, 2014, 11:04:10 am
Dead sand cannot absorb light/other forms of energy or reproduce. It's no better than a normal stone (in solid form) or sand (in sand form) in terms of what it can do.
Live sand engineered by the Sword's R&D will very slowly reproduce and will absorb light and other forms of energy. Its rate of reproduction is slow enough to allow it to be safely disposed of and avoid any grey goo scenarios. When this type of sand forms solid objects, it dies.
Normal live sand can do the same as the one our scientists made, only it's much more dangerous due to its rate of reproduction but can also absorb more energy. When this type of sand forms solid objects, it doesn't die.
Correct?
EDIT: While I'm at it, see if a Battlesuit has any sort of external wiring, something to interface with its computer systems from the outside. Something like some sort of technician's diagnostic/debug cable port.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 18, 2014, 01:43:48 pm
Same question for fighters, bombers and gunships.
Post by: piecewise on June 20, 2014, 11:43:16 am
So to recap, just to make sure I didn't get confused or misunderstood something:Yes
Dead sand cannot absorb light/other forms of energy or reproduce. It's no better than a normal stone (in solid form) or sand (in sand form) in terms of what it can do.
Live sand engineered by the Sword's R&D will very slowly reproduce and will absorb light and other forms of energy. Its rate of reproduction is slow enough to allow it to be safely disposed of and avoid any grey goo scenarios. When this type of sand forms solid objects, it dies.
Normal live sand can do the same as the one our scientists made, only it's much more dangerous due to its rate of reproduction but can also absorb more energy. When this type of sand forms solid objects, it doesn't die.
Correct?
EDIT: While I'm at it, see if a Battlesuit has any sort of external wiring, something to interface with its computer systems from the outside. Something like some sort of technician's diagnostic/debug cable port.
yes
yes, except for the last part. It dies too, but there was so much of it in the abyss it didn't matter.
It sorta does, but it's under an armored panel.
Does the UWM still use wheeled/tracked vehicles in combat situations? If yes, for what roles/purposes? Only support stuff like APC's, or also main battle tanks or IFV's? And if yes, how do they look like? What armaments, what armor?Rarely, but they do exist. More then likely you'll see them with local governments, ones that aren't using rockets and hard suits and giant synthflesh things for almost everything.
Same question for fighters, bombers and gunships.
Same, basically.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 20, 2014, 11:53:15 am
Now, let's see about this armoured panel. I'm assuming it is locked somehow? Is it locked from the inside? Physical locked or electronic lock? Could it be bypassed?
I was thinking that a viable anti-battlesuit strategy (if you want to take one down silently but don't have access to space magic) would be to access that panel and use an Ice Pick to quickly hack the suit and disable it. Would that be possible? Could you use a cutting laser to silently cut into the panel and then stick an Ice pick in there to hack it and disable it, perhaps killing the pilot in the process?
Or would your only hope be pressing the emergency release and hoping whoever driving isn't quick enough to override it?
EDIT: Oh, can I communicate with the people back on Hephaestus?
*looks at RC's answer* Now I'm imagining a giant synthflesh Roc with rockets and electrolasers attached on it.
Wonder if the physics bending abilities of synthflesh can allow them to produce more lift with their wings.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 23, 2014, 12:26:09 am
Quote
Rarely, but they do exist. More then likely you'll see them with local governments, ones that aren't using rockets and hard suits and giant synthflesh things for almost everything.
Could you give an explanation as to why this is? Is it because threats that aren't dealt with through orbital bombardment are engaged at close range?
Also, what do you mean exactly with 'rockets' in this context? Guided missiles, stuff like LESHO?
Post by: piecewise on June 23, 2014, 09:08:02 am
Multiple reasons, not all of them good.QuoteRarely, but they do exist. More then likely you'll see them with local governments, ones that aren't using rockets and hard suits and giant synthflesh things for almost everything.
Could you give an explanation as to why this is? Is it because threats that aren't dealt with through orbital bombardment are engaged at close range?
Also, what do you mean exactly with 'rockets' in this context? Guided missiles, stuff like LESHO?
1.because they have tons left over.
2.Because they have huge factories and built up systems for creating these things.
3.Because they've become used to just throwing troops at something till it's solved, so while this stuff might be worse in some instances then a tank or a bomber, they don't give a shit because things still get done eventually.
4.Because usually the only things they don't just shoot from space are the things that they want to take without much damage, so infantry and hardsuits make sense.
The UWM is a big organization with a lot of "Momentum", they do things the way they're used to doing them, even if there are better ways.
Great! Thanks for the info.
Now, let's see about this armoured panel. I'm assuming it is locked somehow? Is it locked from the inside? Physical locked or electronic lock? Could it be bypassed?
I was thinking that a viable anti-battlesuit strategy (if you want to take one down silently but don't have access to space magic) would be to access that panel and use an Ice Pick to quickly hack the suit and disable it. Would that be possible? Could you use a cutting laser to silently cut into the panel and then stick an Ice pick in there to hack it and disable it, perhaps killing the pilot in the process?
Or would your only hope be pressing the emergency release and hoping whoever driving isn't quick enough to override it?
EDIT: Oh, can I communicate with the people back on Hephaestus?
*looks at RC's answer* Now I'm imagining a giant synthflesh Roc with rockets and electrolasers attached on it.
Wonder if the physics bending abilities of synthflesh can allow them to produce more lift with their wings.
The only way to open it is a physical internal switch. The panel itself is secured with 4 locking pins (one on each corner) and the entire armor plate that covers it pops off so you can get access to it. When not open the armor panel sits flush and has basically no space between the armor and the hatch that someone could use to pry it open.
Well, lasers don't work too well on battlesuits, plus the suit's sensors would alert the pilot.
You can talk to them sure.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 23, 2014, 10:28:41 am
Quote
Multiple reasons, not all of them good.
1.because they have tons left over.
2.Because they have huge factories and built up systems for creating these things.
3.Because they've become used to just throwing troops at something till it's solved, so while this stuff might be worse in some instances then a tank or a bomber, they don't give a shit because things still get done eventually.
4.Because usually the only things they don't just shoot from space are the things that they want to take without much damage, so infantry and hardsuits make sense.
The UWM is a big organization with a lot of "Momentum", they do things the way they're used to doing them, even if there are better ways.
In your (or Steve's) opinion, would ARM in general benefit from designing and using tanks and other armored vehicles? Will there be engagements where ARM could really benefit from having them? Would this influence the actual outcome, or just be a fluff thing?
Secondly, same question, but specifically for us the players. Will we ever be on missions where using them makes good sense, or would they exclusively be a "behind the scenes" thing?
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 25, 2014, 08:37:08 am
Post by: piecewise on June 25, 2014, 11:42:54 am
I doubt there will be many missions where tanks will really fit in well, to be honest.
I remember asking you once, and you said that while Battlesuit's couldn't be controlled via their internal keyboard, they could be easily allowed to do that with some modifications. What kind of modifications would those be? Simply writing a program for it or something more complex, like rewiring the control cuffs?You'd have to map control of the mechanical drive systems to the keyboard and then use individual keys to control extension or retraction. Basically, each limb is controlled via the extension, retraction or rotation of actuators or electromotive cuffs. You would have to map each of these actuators and cuffs to a key or pair of keys and control them like that. The actual act of programing this is easy, but controlling it like that is quite difficult. Sure, you can move one arm around without much difficulty, if you practice it, but the whole body? Much harder.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 25, 2014, 01:52:11 pm
Quote
Depends on the situation, honestly. I mean, design and use armored vehicles ourselves? Maybe, but honestly a tank really doesn't have the mobility needed for most of our missions. However, designing them and then shipping them out to any of our allies or friendly planets (If we ever get any) could be helpful to them.
I doubt there will be many missions where tanks will really fit in well, to be honest.
Secondly, do you think there will be big combat missions again like the Hep defense? I know that didn't work out really as we hoped it would, so I understand if you'd rather not.
Thirdly, if we build vehicles for our allies, what kind of vehicles would they benefit the most from? Fast hit-and-run things, stuff for urban operations, utility vehicles like anti-air platforms?
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 27, 2014, 07:32:49 am
Let's try two different approaches.
First one, is the Ant approach:
Make thousands of tiny bots. Nothing more than a small battery/generator, some tiny scout-eye like legs and a small receiver for remote control.
For offensive capabilities just make them able to bite things and electrocute them or swarm something and then kamikaze by short-circuiting their powersource (or detonating a small explosive if their powersource can't do that).
Release them in a medium sized UWM ship with orders to kill the crew. See what happens.
Since they have no ability to bypass obstacles, make it so that all doors are stuck open for some reason.
Post by: piecewise on June 28, 2014, 11:14:30 am
Depends on their situation, but the best would probably be urban troop carriers and tanks, as artillery and larger guns will probably be prebuilt and stationary. At least in terms of armored, wheeled ground units.QuoteDepends on the situation, honestly. I mean, design and use armored vehicles ourselves? Maybe, but honestly a tank really doesn't have the mobility needed for most of our missions. However, designing them and then shipping them out to any of our allies or friendly planets (If we ever get any) could be helpful to them.
I doubt there will be many missions where tanks will really fit in well, to be honest.Question, have you read the discussion in the ooc thread about armored vehicles? Because the mobility issue was addressed there, and basically, a tank should have a good bit more mobility than a battlesuit of similar proportions, except in tight urban settings. If not, would you be willing to skim the arguments at least (it starts here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=135884.msg5401502#msg5401502))?EDIT: sorted out in dj chat, nevermind.
Secondly, do you think there will be big combat missions again like the Hep defense? I know that didn't work out really as we hoped it would, so I understand if you'd rather not.
Thirdly, if we build vehicles for our allies, what kind of vehicles would they benefit the most from? Fast hit-and-run things, stuff for urban operations, utility vehicles like anti-air platforms?
Back to my Terror Drone project:Do you want to have them run into any type of resistance? Because a one armed sod could take a ship with no one resisting.
Let's try two different approaches.
First one, is the Ant approach:
Make thousands of tiny bots. Nothing more than a small battery/generator, some tiny scout-eye like legs and a small receiver for remote control.
For offensive capabilities just make them able to bite things and electrocute them or swarm something and then kamikaze by short-circuiting their powersource (or detonating a small explosive if their powersource can't do that).
Release them in a medium sized UWM ship with orders to kill the crew. See what happens.
Since they have no ability to bypass obstacles, make it so that all doors are stuck open for some reason.
Post by: Toaster on June 28, 2014, 11:15:49 am
one armed sod
Design a Sod that's actually a slot machine.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 28, 2014, 01:47:55 pm
Just what they'd find on a ship, like the ones we took over. Except for doors. Assume doors aren't locked and can't be locked and that the robots can push the buttons to open them. I would also like to remind you that it doesn't take much to electrocute someone to death:Back to my Terror Drone project:Do you want to have them run into any type of resistance? Because a one armed sod could take a ship with no one resisting.
Let's try two different approaches.
First one, is the Ant approach:
Make thousands of tiny bots. Nothing more than a small battery/generator, some tiny scout-eye like legs and a small receiver for remote control.
For offensive capabilities just make them able to bite things and electrocute them or swarm something and then kamikaze by short-circuiting their powersource (or detonating a small explosive if their powersource can't do that).
Release them in a medium sized UWM ship with orders to kill the crew. See what happens.
Since they have no ability to bypass obstacles, make it so that all doors are stuck open for some reason.
Quote from: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html
As my electrical safety instructor said, "The reason we now have to teach the electrical safety course to all electricians at least twice per year is because some joe was bright enough to be the one person in the world who could figure out how to kill himself with a 9V battery."
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 28, 2014, 02:44:30 pm
And in terms of aerial weapons and vehicles, would these be useful? And if yes, what would be the ones we should focus on? Drones, gunships, strike fighters?
Secondly, have you read that idea for a 'guerrilla sod'? Woild it be possible, and if yes, would it be useful?
For the record, It was this:
(( Random idea:
Remember that speech sod thing somebody proposed? Has anyone looked into that? Because, if it's possible, then there are interesting things we could do.
For example, grow a sod to be charismatic, good at organizing and fluent with words and such. Then train him in things like guerrilla tactics, terrorist operations and organizing a rebel force.
Then send these around the galaxy to UWM worlds so they can rally the locals around them and train them in rebel tactics and advise them how to best fight against the UWM. Kinda like what the US and Soviet secret services did in the Cold war: send advisors to train others to fight their wars on their own, weakening the enemy in the progress. Basically letting them fight our war for us!
Of course, if those covert agents aren't able to convince the rebels to join ARM later on then we're just weakening the UWM while potentially training the future insurgents we'll have to fight ourselves (because, for example, we really need that particular planet). Exactly like with the Mujahedin!
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 28, 2014, 05:31:30 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 28, 2014, 06:23:39 pm
Post by: piecewise on June 30, 2014, 09:23:49 am
((No offense paris, but I don't think it would be wise to continue designing until you find a way around the door problem, or at least verify your drones can deal with them one way or another. Because it seems like wishful thinking that they won't form a problem like your current simulation assumes.))Aerial vehicles: you'd probably be split between UAV's for surveillance and recon and heavy aircraft for carpet bombing. No real use of fighters for the most part, since the UWM sure as hell doesn't have any big fat b52's to shoot down.
And in terms of aerial weapons and vehicles, would these be useful? And if yes, what would be the ones we should focus on? Drones, gunships, strike fighters?
Secondly, have you read that idea for a 'guerrilla sod'? Woild it be possible, and if yes, would it be useful?
For the record, It was this:
(( Random idea:
Remember that speech sod thing somebody proposed? Has anyone looked into that? Because, if it's possible, then there are interesting things we could do.
For example, grow a sod to be charismatic, good at organizing and fluent with words and such. Then train him in things like guerrilla tactics, terrorist operations and organizing a rebel force.
Then send these around the galaxy to UWM worlds so they can rally the locals around them and train them in rebel tactics and advise them how to best fight against the UWM. Kinda like what the US and Soviet secret services did in the Cold war: send advisors to train others to fight their wars on their own, weakening the enemy in the progress. Basically letting them fight our war for us!
Of course, if those covert agents aren't able to convince the rebels to join ARM later on then we're just weakening the UWM while potentially training the future insurgents we'll have to fight ourselves (because, for example, we really need that particular planet). Exactly like with the Mujahedin!
It might potentially be possible but making a sod charismatic is like making a bulldog into a gray hound: you're essentially flipping their type. And you get the possiblity of rebellion since they'd have to be at least somewhat smart in order to convince people of things. Idiot savant rhetoricians would be very odd indeed.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on June 30, 2014, 09:59:47 am
Idiot savant rhetoricians would be very odd indeed.
((It worked for the Ori... >_>))
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 30, 2014, 12:22:43 pm
Do this.Just what they'd find on a ship, like the ones we took over. Except for doors. Assume doors aren't locked and can't be locked and that the robots can push the buttons to open them. I would also like to remind you that it doesn't take much to electrocute someone to death:Back to my Terror Drone project:Do you want to have them run into any type of resistance? Because a one armed sod could take a ship with no one resisting.
Let's try two different approaches.
First one, is the Ant approach:
Make thousands of tiny bots. Nothing more than a small battery/generator, some tiny scout-eye like legs and a small receiver for remote control.
For offensive capabilities just make them able to bite things and electrocute them or swarm something and then kamikaze by short-circuiting their powersource (or detonating a small explosive if their powersource can't do that).
Release them in a medium sized UWM ship with orders to kill the crew. See what happens.
Since they have no ability to bypass obstacles, make it so that all doors are stuck open for some reason.Quote from: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.htmlAs my electrical safety instructor said, "The reason we now have to teach the electrical safety course to all electricians at least twice per year is because some joe was bright enough to be the one person in the world who could figure out how to kill himself with a 9V battery."
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 01, 2014, 12:34:32 pm
Quote
Aerial vehicles: you'd probably be split between UAV's for surveillance and recon and heavy aircraft for carpet bombing. No real use of fighters for the most part, since the UWM sure as hell doesn't have any big fat b52's to shoot down.
the UWM uses a lot of drop pods and drip ships, right? Would it be possible to build a fighter/gunship hybrid designed for shooting them down as droppods come down, then give fire support after they havr landed?
Quote
It might potentially be possible but making a sod charismatic is like making a bulldog into a gray hound: you're essentially flipping their type. And you get the possiblity of rebellion since they'd have to be at least somewhat smart in order to convince people of things. Idiot savant rhetoricians would be very odd indeed.
how extensive would these alterations be? What kind of input would you require from us, the players? And how loyal could we make these operatives through extensive indoctrination?
Post by: piecewise on July 02, 2014, 11:24:45 am
Who?Idiot savant rhetoricians would be very odd indeed.
((It worked for the Ori... >_>))
Do this.Just what they'd find on a ship, like the ones we took over. Except for doors. Assume doors aren't locked and can't be locked and that the robots can push the buttons to open them. I would also like to remind you that it doesn't take much to electrocute someone to death:Back to my Terror Drone project:Do you want to have them run into any type of resistance? Because a one armed sod could take a ship with no one resisting.
Let's try two different approaches.
First one, is the Ant approach:
Make thousands of tiny bots. Nothing more than a small battery/generator, some tiny scout-eye like legs and a small receiver for remote control.
For offensive capabilities just make them able to bite things and electrocute them or swarm something and then kamikaze by short-circuiting their powersource (or detonating a small explosive if their powersource can't do that).
Release them in a medium sized UWM ship with orders to kill the crew. See what happens.
Since they have no ability to bypass obstacles, make it so that all doors are stuck open for some reason.Quote from: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.htmlAs my electrical safety instructor said, "The reason we now have to teach the electrical safety course to all electricians at least twice per year is because some joe was bright enough to be the one person in the world who could figure out how to kill himself with a 9V battery."
Ant bots work pretty well until they face any sort of armed resistance. They're not really sturdy enough to stand up to much, so defenders tend to just smash them with grenades or sweeps of lasers. If they're facing a single enemy they'll just swarm him but against several, organized defenders they're not able to make much headway.
Maybe, but those drop pods and ships are moving stupid fast and erratic. They're meant to dodge computer guided laser defense grids, after all. What you would probably end up with is more of a flying weapons platform then anything, since human controlled fighters won't do it.QuoteAerial vehicles: you'd probably be split between UAV's for surveillance and recon and heavy aircraft for carpet bombing. No real use of fighters for the most part, since the UWM sure as hell doesn't have any big fat b52's to shoot down.
the UWM uses a lot of drop pods and drip ships, right? Would it be possible to build a fighter/gunship hybrid designed for shooting them down as droppods come down, then give fire support after they havr landed?QuoteIt might potentially be possible but making a sod charismatic is like making a bulldog into a gray hound: you're essentially flipping their type. And you get the possiblity of rebellion since they'd have to be at least somewhat smart in order to convince people of things. Idiot savant rhetoricians would be very odd indeed.
how extensive would these alterations be? What kind of input would you require from us, the players? And how loyal could we make these operatives through extensive indoctrination?
It would require pretty much an entire brain rewrite; they'd have to be made much quicker and more clever, as well as more charismatic and empathetic. The danger comes from the fact that they might empathize too much. You could tweak them to make them sociopaths who are capable of empathetic manipulation but not swayed by it. But then they might be unpredictable and self centered. You see the problem?
Post by: Xantalos on July 02, 2014, 01:40:13 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 02, 2014, 04:56:27 pm
It would require pretty much an entire brain rewrite; they'd have to be made much quicker and more clever, as well as more charismatic and empathetic. The danger comes from the fact that they might empathize too much. You could tweak them to make them sociopaths who are capable of empathetic manipulation but not swayed by it. But then they might be unpredictable and self centered. You see the problem?What does the UWM do to brainwash their soldiers into thinking suicide is preferable to defeat? Can't we use that?
Or maybe just implant the sods with memories of a family or something similar to give them a reason to fight for us?
Or maybe just make an army of clones using the generals as a template and improving on it?
Tinker post coming later.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 03, 2014, 01:18:38 pm
((See? Just mass produce me when I'm released.))
((I'd prefer a reliable weapon system :v ))
What will we use our sods most for? Shipping to allies, npc's for operations based from the Sword?
Secondly, what roles will those sods mostly need to fill? Will there be things like garrisoning duties?
Post by: piecewise on July 04, 2014, 11:09:11 am
They don't brainwash them. Sod brains are implicitly different from human ones. They lack the capacity to do many things, have greatly reduced free will, little in terms of self preservation, etc. Thats why making a orator out of a sod is such a big project. It's like making a wolf out of a sheep.It would require pretty much an entire brain rewrite; they'd have to be made much quicker and more clever, as well as more charismatic and empathetic. The danger comes from the fact that they might empathize too much. You could tweak them to make them sociopaths who are capable of empathetic manipulation but not swayed by it. But then they might be unpredictable and self centered. You see the problem?What does the UWM do to brainwash their soldiers into thinking suicide is preferable to defeat? Can't we use that?
Or maybe just implant the sods with memories of a family or something similar to give them a reason to fight for us?
Or maybe just make an army of clones using the generals as a template and improving on it?
Tinker post coming later.
You could try, but they're gonna talk to each other, you know they will. And what happens when they figure it out, that they all have the same memories?
If you wanna try that, go for it. I assume you mean milno, miya and jim.
Depends on what you and simus decide, honestly.((See? Just mass produce me when I'm released.))
((I'd prefer a reliable weapon system :v ))
What will we use our sods most for? Shipping to allies, npc's for operations based from the Sword?
Secondly, what roles will those sods mostly need to fill? Will there be things like garrisoning duties?
Again, depends on what you want to do with em.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 04, 2014, 12:56:13 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 04, 2014, 03:09:18 pm
What will we use our sods most for? Shipping to allies, npc's for operations based from the Sword?Depends on what you and Simus decide, honestly.
Secondly, what roles will those sods mostly need to fill? Will there be things like garrisoning duties?
Again, depends on what you want to do with em.
Well, you remember how we showed that tanks should still be a dependable weapon system in ER verse, but then found out they wouldn't have a whole lot of use due to the fact that big open battles (like Hep defense) for players don't work very well within ER mechanics, and thus we shouldn't put a big emphasis on them? And that vehicles such as that would mostly be used by allies?
Well, this is like that. I'm asking what kind of roles our sods will need to fill so we know what to grow. Of course, sods for 'own use' (such as sods produced to deal with the fleshmonster, or to help defend Hep) we can decide ourselves, but what would be most useful to our allies, and for deployments from the Sword? Lots of cheap organic sods that are easy to 'maintain' (no complex machinery or upkeep, just food and water), fewer more powerful sods (upgraded robobodies), a mix?
For example, I take it we won't need to train and deploy clownsods juggling grenades to entertain the populace of new ARM planets?
Post by: piecewise on July 06, 2014, 10:42:14 am
No, I meant how does the UWM brainwashe their human soldiers? Urban Executors, Arbiters of Peace, Shadow Walkers, Ghost Ships, etc. Can't we use that?Well arbiters have artificial brains, ghost ships are mostly mechanical now, and the rest mostly come from core worlds, and have a lifetime of indoctrination and propaganda behind them. And even they go rouge some times. The UWM doesn't use any special method, just good old fashion patriotism and xenophobia.
What will we use our sods most for? Shipping to allies, npc's for operations based from the Sword?Depends on what you and Simus decide, honestly.
Secondly, what roles will those sods mostly need to fill? Will there be things like garrisoning duties?
Again, depends on what you want to do with em.
Well, you remember how we showed that tanks should still be a dependable weapon system in ER verse, but then found out they wouldn't have a whole lot of use due to the fact that big open battles (like Hep defense) for players don't work very well within ER mechanics, and thus we shouldn't put a big emphasis on them? And that vehicles such as that would mostly be used by allies?
Well, this is like that. I'm asking what kind of roles our sods will need to fill so we know what to grow. Of course, sods for 'own use' (such as sods produced to deal with the fleshmonster, or to help defend Hep) we can decide ourselves, but what would be most useful to our allies, and for deployments from the Sword? Lots of cheap organic sods that are easy to 'maintain' (no complex machinery or upkeep, just food and water), fewer more powerful sods (upgraded robobodies), a mix?
For example, I take it we won't need to train and deploy clownsods juggling grenades to entertain the populace of new ARM planets?
The robo-sods being developed on Heph right now are honestly probably the best. They're more complex then fleshy ones but statistically have better survival rates. Though that may not equate to better success rates. That still needs testing. Honestly, Sods really are designed for use with a competent general, so regardless of what type we send, we might be better off offering training.
A sod which could train the citizens as well as act alone would be best, but thats not really a sod, is it?
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 07, 2014, 02:51:25 am
Quote
The robo-sods being developed on Heph right now are honestly probably the best. They're more complex then fleshy ones but statistically have better survival rates. Though that may not equate to better success rates. That still needs testing.
Why does the UWM not use robosods? Is it due to their 'momentum', or are there more legitimate reasons for it? Ask Steve if needed.
Start VR test. For starters, battle of Hephaustus. If we replace our sods with regular robosods, is there any difference? And if the UWM replaced theirs?
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Honestly, Sods really are designed for use with a competent general, so regardless of what type we send, we might be better off offering training.
You mean, we train other players, or offer training to npc allies? If second, is that something we should automate as well, or something we do 'manually'?
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A sod which could train the citizens as well as act alone would be best, but thats not really a sod, is it?
I dunno, but that sounds exactly like the kind of 'guerrilla sod' I described earlier, for which you outlined a few difficulties and which I'll get back to later I hope.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 07, 2014, 07:42:41 pm
What do you mean ghost ships are mostly mechanical? Don't they use specially conditioned human brains? Or has spending so much time as a ghost ship turned those minds into something more like a computer?
Also, tinker project:
The Modular Ordinance Magnetic Accelerator Rifle (or Gauss Slingshot for short):
Use the gauss rifle as a template but make it a bit bigger than a gauss rifle.
It has the ability to link all of its coils, transforming them into a single coil.
Inside its barrel is a cradle made of ferromagnetic material, essentially a frame for things to be placed on.
The top of the rifle can open like a bolt action rifle, allowing things to be placed inside the cradle.
When the (now singular) coil is activated, the cradle will begin accelerating, pulled by the coil's magnetic field towards its middle. When it passes the middle, the cradle will start decelerating and will eventually go in reverse until it reaches its starting position. At that point the coil should deactivate so that the cradle will stop moving. Meanwhile, whatever the cradle was carrying should keep moving and exit the barrel, assuming it is not affected by the coil's magnetic field.
The Gauss Slingshot can also be switched to magnetic projectile mode, where the cradle remains locked in place and it functions as a normal gauss rifle
The Gauss Slingshot can optionally take a magazine, for when the user wants semi-auto or full-auto firing.
The Gauss Slingshot has a knob for setting the power, so that power can be lowered if one wants to lob a grenade instead of launching a mortar.
It is essentially a grenade launcher that can be used to launch almost anything. You could use it to throw rocks at your enemies or create a stakegun/spear fishing gun for example.
I'd draw it but I'm writing this from my phone. Hopefully, you'll understand what I mean. This might help: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 08:47:41 pm
Post by: piecewise on July 10, 2014, 10:32:33 am
QuoteThe robo-sods being developed on Heph right now are honestly probably the best. They're more complex then fleshy ones but statistically have better survival rates. Though that may not equate to better success rates. That still needs testing.
Why does the UWM not use robosods? Is it due to their 'momentum', or are there more legitimate reasons for it? Ask Steve if needed.
Start VR test. For starters, battle of Hephaustus. If we replace our sods with regular robosods, is there any difference? And if the UWM replaced theirs?QuoteHonestly, Sods really are designed for use with a competent general, so regardless of what type we send, we might be better off offering training.
You mean, we train other players, or offer training to npc allies? If second, is that something we should automate as well, or something we do 'manually'?QuoteA sod which could train the citizens as well as act alone would be best, but thats not really a sod, is it?
I dunno, but that sounds exactly like the kind of 'guerrilla sod' I described earlier, for which you outlined a few difficulties and which I'll get back to later I hope.
The first one more then anything, plus they have the infrastructure needed to keep them alive and make as much as they need. They're so big and fat they can afford to do things in less efficient ways. Much like evolution, any act by a government that does not significantly reduce its ability to survive will more than likely just keep going.
Longer life span, in general, meaning you have more sods for longer. On Hephestus it's not much of a change, a bit better, but since their numbers were limited and they were fighting with you, it's a increase in efficiency of about 5-8%. On the other hand, the UWM, since they were all sods, do benefit a good deal from the change, since it makes them harder to kill, meaning they get more shots off at you.
You could automate training pretty easy. Hell, all you'd need to do is make up a good basic training vr program with someone teaching them the stuff and then produce it as both a VR program and a straight video for those without vr machines. Youtube trained insurgents, mofo. Of course, creating some sort of heavily adapted sod drill Sargent might be more effective, but would also be harder and harder to get where they need to go.
@RC: Just do a clone army. You know you want to.Mostly mechanical as in the central computer handles a lot of stuff; the consciousness of the ship is basically just there to fight. Things like designating targets, moving the ship under normal circumstances, etc are all automated or even remote controlled. And the programming they use with the subjects is often post hypnotic or subliminal, reenforced by conditioning and self-enforcing thoughts. It's quite complex and even then, it's not 100%. There were still a large number of people cut.
What do you mean ghost ships are mostly mechanical? Don't they use specially conditioned human brains? Or has spending so much time as a ghost ship turned those minds into something more like a computer?
Also, tinker project:
The Modular Ordinance Magnetic Accelerator Rifle (or Gauss Slingshot for short):
Use the gauss rifle as a template but make it a bit bigger than a gauss rifle.
It has the ability to link all of its coils, transforming them into a single coil.
Inside its barrel is a cradle made of ferromagnetic material, essentially a frame for things to be placed on.
The top of the rifle can open like a bolt action rifle, allowing things to be placed inside the cradle.
When the (now singular) coil is activated, the cradle will begin accelerating, pulled by the coil's magnetic field towards its middle. When it passes the middle, the cradle will start decelerating and will eventually go in reverse until it reaches its starting position. At that point the coil should deactivate so that the cradle will stop moving. Meanwhile, whatever the cradle was carrying should keep moving and exit the barrel, assuming it is not affected by the coil's magnetic field.
The Gauss Slingshot can also be switched to magnetic projectile mode, where the cradle remains locked in place and it functions as a normal gauss rifle
The Gauss Slingshot can optionally take a magazine, for when the user wants semi-auto or full-auto firing.
The Gauss Slingshot has a knob for setting the power, so that power can be lowered if one wants to lob a grenade instead of launching a mortar.
It is essentially a grenade launcher that can be used to launch almost anything. You could use it to throw rocks at your enemies or create a stakegun/spear fishing gun for example.
I'd draw it but I'm writing this from my phone. Hopefully, you'll understand what I mean. This might help: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
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ok, but this thing is gonna need to be pretty big for you to fit a grenade down the barrel.
Sounds alright from a theoretical standpoint, but there's one big problem I see: If you use anything that isn't rounded it's got a chance of damaging the barrel. Imagine a normal grenade, one like what we have today, like this
pic (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/MkII_07.JPG)
Now, imagine you stuff that in there and fire. Now, imagine that, as it came down the barrel, that upper part where the pin and handle are located, nosed down and scraped against the barrel and, because there were already scratches there or there was some sort of microcrack or something, it managed to bite in and catch. Now you're gonna have gauss gun force jamming that grenade through the barrel as it attempts to turn sideways. Best case scenario, barrel damage. Worst case, you are holding onto an electrified pipe bomb.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 10, 2014, 01:42:58 pm
Anyway, another project:
Remember the monoatomic shredder sword I made earlier? The one that had the spinning monowires? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg5315782#msg5315782 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg5315782#msg5315782)
Make it bigger. The size of a drill. And with rounded sides, like a V. And put the spinners on the now rounded sides so that they point to everywhere. That way, the front spinners will start digging the hole and the side spinners will enlarge it as the drill turns around.
Compare it to the drills we have on Hephaestus. Are there any glaring advantages or disadvantages in terms of wear and tear, power usage, cost or efficiency?
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 11, 2014, 01:56:27 pm
Quote
Longer life span, in general, meaning you have more sods for longer. On Hephestus it's not much of a change, a bit better, but since their numbers were limited and they were fighting with you, it's a increase in efficiency of about 5-8%. On the other hand, the UWM, since they were all sods, do benefit a good deal from the change, since it makes them harder to kill, meaning they get more shots off at you.
Can you give me a % increase in effectiveness for the UWM if they used robosods for that battle? And could you tell me how the ratio of effectiveness/cost changes?
Secondly, for sods inside battlesuits or other vehicles, is there an increase/decrease in effectiveness if the sod piloting it is a robot?
Thirdly, use vr to go over various battles and operations where the UWM deployed sods (try to get a mix of different engagements). Then replace flesh sods with regular robosods. Try to get the % increase in effectiveness. Then check effectiveness/cost ratio, taking into account the 'bigger picture' (such as higher initial production cost).
Quote
You could automate training pretty easy. Hell, all you'd need to do is make up a good basic training vr program with someone teaching them the stuff and then produce it as both a VR program and a straight video for those without vr machines. Youtube trained insurgents, mofo. Of course, creating some sort of heavily adapted sod drill Sargent might be more effective, but would also be harder and harder to get where they need to go.
Can't we do both? One of those things only requires some work from players, after all, no input from Hep. And what, exactly, would you require from us? You want me to write out a treatise on the aspects of warfare in this sci-fi setting, just give some vague guidelines and let the dice do the talking, film it live action and post it on youtube (deargodpleaseno)?
Post by: piecewise on July 12, 2014, 12:48:51 pm
Yeah, that makes sense, that's one of the problems it has. The other being that if you put something fragile in it and launch it too fast it might break apart inside the barrel and damage it. Just wanted to have your OK in case I decide to build it later or send it to Hephaestus. Because a weapon that can shoot supersonic gravel sounds like a great idea for a guerrilla force. They would be able to shoot any specialised ammunition we give them, like redshot or normal gauss rifle rounds, but once they run out of ammo, they can start shooting with whatever is available. Like what some militaries did in the old days when they run out of cannon balls.Someone sent me this:
Anyway, another project:
Remember the monoatomic shredder sword I made earlier? The one that had the spinning monowires? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg5315782#msg5315782 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg5315782#msg5315782)
Make it bigger. The size of a drill. And with rounded sides, like a V. And put the spinners on the now rounded sides so that they point to everywhere. That way, the front spinners will start digging the hole and the side spinners will enlarge it as the drill turns around.
Compare it to the drills we have on Hephaestus. Are there any glaring advantages or disadvantages in terms of wear and tear, power usage, cost or efficiency?
Quote
The burst laser is a bit dodgy physics-wise, but it's not that extreme. However, the gauss slingshot, on the other hand, is a really, really, bad idea and a giant physics mugging.
Some issues.. First, you need it shaped at least like a proper bullet or artillery shell for any accuracy beyond that of a smoothbore cannon. Secondly, due to the nature of gauss propulsion, the projectile needs to be both paramagnetic and balanced by mass or it'll rip apart during the acceleration, which could damage your gun and it's wielder pretty well.. and just eyeballing it is not accurate enough. That's not quite as big an issue with a ship-sized gauss cannon, as it's robust enough so that it will get the object out of the barrel, but it'll be leaving in a large number of pieces.
Railguns and coilguns are powerful devices. If he wants a gun he can just shoot random objects out of, he should be looking at smoothbore cannon, and he needs to remember cladding and wadding are not optional. Railguns and coilguns are fundamentally different.
Anyways;
Yeah, one of your series of completely unsafe things. Reminds me of Zako's Bolas. Whatever happened to zako anyways?
Monorazors as industrial drills is what we call "Break down city". Even well used mono-filaments break easily, and wildly grinding into stone 24 hours a day will break them very fast. So yes, they will cut more effectively then the drills we've got, but they will also need to be changed out really often. I suppose they would be a good choice if you wanted to tunnel somewhere really quickly and didn't care about gathering the stuff you're drilling, but as part of an industrial mining operation they're more trouble then benefit.
Depends on if we factor in the Artillery fun time, which rather reduced your forces.QuoteLonger life span, in general, meaning you have more sods for longer. On Hephestus it's not much of a change, a bit better, but since their numbers were limited and they were fighting with you, it's a increase in efficiency of about 5-8%. On the other hand, the UWM, since they were all sods, do benefit a good deal from the change, since it makes them harder to kill, meaning they get more shots off at you.
Can you give me a % increase in effectiveness for the UWM if they used robosods for that battle? And could you tell me how the ratio of effectiveness/cost changes?
Secondly, for sods inside battlesuits or other vehicles, is there an increase/decrease in effectiveness if the sod piloting it is a robot?
Thirdly, use vr to go over various battles and operations where the UWM deployed sods (try to get a mix of different engagements). Then replace flesh sods with regular robosods. Try to get the % increase in effectiveness. Then check effectiveness/cost ratio, taking into account the 'bigger picture' (such as higher initial production cost).QuoteYou could automate training pretty easy. Hell, all you'd need to do is make up a good basic training vr program with someone teaching them the stuff and then produce it as both a VR program and a straight video for those without vr machines. Youtube trained insurgents, mofo. Of course, creating some sort of heavily adapted sod drill Sargent might be more effective, but would also be harder and harder to get where they need to go.
Can't we do both? One of those things only requires some work from players, after all, no input from Hep. And what, exactly, would you require from us? You want me to write out a treatise on the aspects of warfare in this sci-fi setting, just give some vague guidelines and let the dice do the talking, film it live action and post it on youtube (deargodpleaseno)?
No, none that I can think of. Being a robot doesn't prevent them from doing anything that a human could do in those situations. Hell, might make them more effective because damage to the cockpit that might kill a flesh sod has a better chance of being survivable and hence let the machine keep going.
It varies by mission, but on average it's about 20%, though thats considering the UWM's massive sod production system and the fact they can crank out sods for almost nothing. On an interesting note it would mean you could have several hundred year old sods that have seen combat on dozens or hundreds of worlds.
Yeah, you could do both.
Hmm..tempting.Very tempting...
But really, what I'd just want you to do is set up the training course and what you want to say in it. Plan out the thing in text form. Doesn't have to be super detailed, just the overview, but detail in places you want to be sure about helps.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 12, 2014, 01:41:04 pm
@RC: Do the training course in that program piecewise did the warehouse history thing. And have the player pass a virtual multiple choice test in the end, where wrong options kill your virtual self in gruesome ways.
Post by: syvarris on July 12, 2014, 02:47:43 pm
Also, as to the training course, pickmepickmepickme. Modern military tactics, especially CQB, is one of my favorite things. I have more information than is actually useful.))
Post by: PyroDesu on July 13, 2014, 05:47:47 am
Well, whoever wrote that to you clearly had no idea what they were talking about because they either didn't read or didn't understand how the Gauss Slingshot works.
((I can say that I didn't write that - I would've posted it here, not sent it to PW.
Still, whoever did is correct is correct about how insanely dangerous that thing would probably be, with the ease with which it can damage and destroy itself (here's something the comment didn't mention - damage to the coils (which is basically inevitable with the way it's intended to be used) could potentially result in a magnetic IED). And the accuracy comment too. As Syv said - you'd probably be better off getting a small(-ish) vector automanipulator and a barrel that's functionally similar a smoothbore cannon barrel.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 13, 2014, 06:05:14 am
The easier way to achieve what you want is something like a gauss ballista - two discrete acceleration rails in parallel, with a sturdy pusher plate embedded inbetween and linked to permanent "projectiles" within the rails - though obviously the rails won't enclose them completely because a slit is needed to slide the pusher plate along. This way the gauss rails will work in their normal circumstances, on "projectiles" that will easily comply with the magnetic forces, without affecting the actual projectile.))
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 13, 2014, 07:47:52 pm
Sorry to the anonymous commenter if I sounded harsh, I just find hidden criticism like that annoying, because if piecewise hadn't posted that, then I would have no chance to respond. Plus the fact that I don't like writing large walls of text/arguments when I'm busy, but that's hardly the commenter's fault.
Now, on to responses:
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First, you need it shaped at least like a proper bullet or artillery shell for any accuracy beyond that of a smoothbore cannon.Well, of course. One would think that the fact that its name contains the word Slingshot and that it's made as a "launch almost anything" weapon and the fact that I actually mentioned loading cannons with improper ammunition in it would make it apparent, but if you feel the need to state the obvious, then go ahead. Still, the fact that it can launch non-aerodynamic ammunition doesn't mean that it can't launch properly constructed aerodynamic ammunition, a fact that was also mentioned in my post.
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Secondly, due to the nature of gauss propulsion, the projectile needs to be both paramagnetic and balanced by mass or it'll rip apart during the acceleration, which could damage your gun and it's wielder pretty well.. and just eyeballing it is not accurate enough. That's not quite as big an issue with a ship-sized gauss cannon, as it's robust enough so that it will get the object out of the barrel, but it'll be leaving in a large number of pieces.This is also a part where the commenter failed to read the weapon description properly. If they had, they would have noticed that:
a) The weapon does not require its ammunition to be magnetic. It CAN fire magnetic projectiles by functioning as a normal Gauss Rifle, but that's not all it can do.
b) The weapon has the problem that something fragile put in it will break apart during acceleration or when it contacts the air. There are two obvious solutions: Don't put fragile things in it and use the power setting to lower the speed/acceleration of the projectile. Same as putting non-aerodynamic things that could tumble inside the barrel and get stuck. If you can't figure that out, you probably shouldn't be handling this weapon.
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Railguns and coilguns are powerful devices. If he wants a gun he can just shoot random objects out of, he should be looking at smoothbore cannon, and he needs to remember cladding and wadding are not optional. Railguns and coilguns are fundamentally different.That's not what the weapon was designed for. Cannons require gunpowder. Gunpowder requires resources. This weapon is designed to function with as little resources necessary as possible, while allowing a large variety of ammunition to be launched. It's like a laser working off a generator that allows it to have infinite ammo, only this one has the strengths of the Gauss Rifle: It can launch specialised ammunition like Grav-Shot or other kinds of Ani-Tank Gauss Ammunition and it can launch non-magnetic ammunition designed by the wielder.
Also, what does cladding mean? I think it means to put a layer of metal on top of something but I don't understand what it means in this context.
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Still, whoever did is correct is correct about how insanely dangerous that thing would probably be, with the ease with which it can damage and destroy itself (here's something the comment didn't mention - damage to the coils (which is basically inevitable with the way it's intended to be used) could potentially result in a magnetic IED). And the accuracy comment too. As Syv said - you'd probably be better off getting a small(-ish) vector automanipulator and a barrel that's functionally similar a smoothbore cannon barrelI don't understand why damage to the coils would occur. Which part of the weapon would damage the coils?
And vector manips go against the spirit of the weapon. It's meant to be a multi-purpose tool rather than a pure weapon that can be cheaply mass produced and given to civilian forces/sod commandos/infiltrators that could end up cut off and without supplies. They would be given along with some more powerful ammunition like grav-shot or red-shot or those chemical gauss rounds that can eat through battlesuit plate, which the wielder would be instructed to try and conserve for emergencies. They could be given along with generator fed lasers with various helpful features and some other basic medical/engineering/communication supplies as a sort of "starter pack" for civilian armies, along with the more conventional and more powerful weapons that will be created in greater numbers and given to regular armies. A vector manip would mean that the weapon would be very expensive, require manipulator batteries and there would be no variable power setting (so that things like launching a grappling hook or spear or grenade from it would be impossible, greatly reducing its versatility). The fact that it can be used for those crazy projects most inmates sometimes build is an added bonus (like that one guy who tried to build that kinetic-amp-tipped-stake launcher).
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The biggest problem with that design is that it won't be able to launch anything magnetic, because whatever it is will move with the cradle.
The cradle can be locked in place and the coils unlinked so that the weapon functions like a normal gauss rifle.
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The cradle itself is also likely to break apart spectacularly because of the forces involved in sudden acceleration of something very heavy and not perfectly braced against the cradle.Simple solution: Add padding.
And lower the power setting so that you don't try to throw supersonic, irregularly shaped rocks at your enemies. If you're throwing rocks, you're probably either targeting fleshy things at really close range or are out of ammo and really desperate because you are trying to damage the cameras of the battlesuit advancing on you with rocks. And, well, if you're that desperate, damaging your weapon is the least of your problems.
A way to judge the type the ammunition inserted so that the best power setting can be selected would be best, but that would probably get complicated and require cameras and electronics and maybe some kind of spectrometer. So just a number of preset power settings with clear meanings would be best (from launch a ball to your friend all the way to Full Power)
And remember, the cradle only gives ammunition half (or less, due to its mass) the acceleration of a normal gauss rifle in the best case scenario because of the way it operates.
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The easier way to achieve what you want is something like a gauss ballista - two discrete acceleration rails in parallel, with a sturdy pusher plate embedded inbetween and linked to permanent "projectiles" within the rails - though obviously the rails won't enclose them completely because a slit is needed to slide the pusher plate along. This way the gauss rails will work in their normal circumstances, on "projectiles" that will easily comply with the magnetic forces, without affecting the actual projectile.Yeah, that's actually a very good idea. It would solve the deceleration problem when launching not-as-magnetic-as-the-cradle objects. And probably increase the power output a bit and decrease maintenance. But less pusher plate and more Π shaped, so that aerodynamic ammunition put in it would point forward and be generally easier to align with custom ammunition. Only problem I see is that then you wouldn't be able to launch magnetic projectiles like a gauss rifle that way, which is one of the features of the weapon.
Other thoughts:
An adjustable cradle size would be best, since it would ensure the ammunition will remain in place and keep pointing in the right direction. Auto-adjustable would be even better, but that might be more complex.
I could also make the barrel a bit bigger to account for whatever launched inside it tumbling.
I'd also add a plasma window (it's not like our generators lack the power to do that) and some vacuum pumps to prevent the problems arising from air resistance inside the barrel (although the cradle pushing the air inside forward would help with that) but that would make the weapon too complicated and I'm trying to design something relatively simple, relatively low maintenance that doesn't require lots of supplies to function, but with multiple uses.
Anyway, all that is for later. I just wanted to get an OK from piecewise that the basic concept works.
Post by: Devastator on July 13, 2014, 07:59:33 pm
Isn't a one-coil system dramatically less efficient than a good multi-coil system? Both in general, and the fact that you're accelerating something that you don't fire. I don't have the math for it, but I'd think the inverse square law kicks in with a one-coil system, and if it takes twenty or thirty times the power to get 60% the velocity, at best, it's not minimal resources.
And two, aren't normal coilgun projectiles basically lathed iron or steel? That's something you can make with hand tools in a cave without electricity. A good coilgun can be difficult to make, but the ammo for it should be quite easy.
I'm also not sure what it's for. If you want a gauss rifle, why not just mass-produce some real ones, and send people dies to make more, and make their own ammunition? If you want a gun you can fire anything out of, and doesn't require an external power source, why not optimize a good air cannon? That'll do the job nicely, and it'll get rid of the generator, ridiculous power needs, and likely the superconducting wire necessary for one of these gauss guns, so it can really be built by anybody with minimal tools.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 13, 2014, 11:06:16 pm
Post by: NAV on July 13, 2014, 11:20:48 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on July 14, 2014, 03:32:19 am
Dammit why do people keep stealing tinker ideas out of my head when I'm on mission? First the goop sprayer now the electroreactive ballista. This is why I wanted to buy that vr backpack.
You are now experiencing what I do quite often. Oh, and I asked for the VR packs first.
And Paris, I can understand about the 'no manipulator' part, but my thinking about possible damage to the coils is that most things that you'd end up stuffing down the barrel of one of these things is probably going to be highly irregular, and may or may not stay in the 'sling' properly (especially during acceleration (double especially if you use a slower acceleration to avoid breaking the object up), and don't even think about trying to make a big shotgun out of it by putting gravel or ball-bearings or whatever in) - if it doesn't, and scrapes the barrel, then you have a problem.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 14, 2014, 08:20:09 am
1) replace current halberd design with the smaller one (you said it could be made smaller, to about 8 feet, without losing anything)
2) replace halberd design with standard battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
3) replace halberd design with mobility battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
4) replace halberd design with melee battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
For reference, this is the test I'm talking about:
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Now do all that again but observe with normal rolls. Do 10 times then get an evaluation of the Halberd.Speed and maneuvering is its greatest strength, that's for sure. But basically, if someone shoots it in the leg and slows it down, it is boned. Very boned.
Otherwise, the weapons work fairly well, though the blades really don't work against anything with much armor.
If the Battle suits are Chromehounds mechs, then yours is Armored core style.
Quote
Depends on if we factor in the Artillery fun time, which rather reduced your forces.
Run two tests, one where Artillery fun time remains like it was, the other where the simulation is reset. Get in- or decrease in effectiveness for UWM
Quote
It varies by mission, but on average it's about 20%, though thats considering the UWM's massive sod production system and the fact they can crank out sods for almost nothing. On an interesting note it would mean you could have several hundred year old sods that have seen combat on dozens or hundreds of worlds.
Could the average UWM sod actually benefit from this battlefield experience, or not? Could our current upgraded sods benefit from it? Is it possible to create sods that are smart and independent enough to benefit from it? If yes, would we face the loyalty problems we would with that 'guerilla sod'?
Quote
@RC: Do the training course in that program piecewise did the warehouse history thing. And have the player pass a virtual multiple choice test in the end, where wrong options kill your virtual self in gruesome ways.An interesting idea, but it would be a huge amount of work. I don't think I can devote the time or energy for that, though if other people were to help it might be possible.
Quote
Also, as to the training course, pickmepickmepickme. Modern military tactics, especially CQB, is one of my favorite things. I have more information than is actually useful.))
Sure, but you'll have to wait until the flesh horror stuff on your planet is solved before Saint can help with that IC. But until then we can plan things through OOC. I'm gonna lay down a framework for these vids soon, so hold your horses for a little while.
@ Sean and Tavik: why not merge your designs and work together? If your stuff is going to fill the same niche, I think that'd be the most optimal way to go about it. Yes; I know there's pride involved in wanting your own design to be proven best and used, but I think the two of you working together would find the best solution to the 'lightly armored rapid assault mech' problem.
Dammit why do people keep stealing tinker ideas out of my head when I'm on mission? First the goop sprayer now the electroreactive ballista. This is why I wanted to buy that vr backpack.Heh, welcome to my world. But if another works out your idea in a good way, does it matter all that much you weren't the one to do it? After all, you know you had a good idea, you just didn't get the time to work on it. And you can still help out in OOC. For example, do you (or anyone else) have an idea to improve upon the goop thrower/universal chem thrower?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 14, 2014, 09:05:40 am
@ Sean and Tavik: why not merge your designs and work together? If your stuff is going to fill the same niche, I think that'd be the most optimal way to go about it. Yes; I know there's pride involved in wanting your own design to be proven best and used, but I think the two of you working together would find the best solution to the 'lightly armored rapid assault mech' problem.
We'd kind of be working long-distance, and we're not yet in time-sync, and Anton has a nonzero chance of not surviving until then anyway. Plus, Anton's design needs certain important technological breakthroughs. But yeah, like I said, the two projects are likely to end up being related. Either one based off the other, or one inspired by the other.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 14, 2014, 09:12:19 am
@ Sean and Tavik: why not merge your designs and work together? If your stuff is going to fill the same niche, I think that'd be the most optimal way to go about it. Yes; I know there's pride involved in wanting your own design to be proven best and used, but I think the two of you working together would find the best solution to the 'lightly armored rapid assault mech' problem.
We'd kind of be working long-distance, and we're not yet in time-sync, and Anton has a nonzero chance of not surviving until then anyway. Plus, Anton's design needs certain important technological breakthroughs. But yeah, like I said, the two projects are likely to end up being related. Either one based off the other, or one inspired by the other.
I kinda think PW wouldn't mind if you ignore the time-sync suff, he has said as much in the past. You are right Anton can't help right now IC, but you can always discuss things OOC. You do what you want of course, I just suspect that, if there are two designs that somwhat fill the same niche, one will just be forgotten in favor of the other, which could be a waste since you both have interesting ideas the other doesn't.
Post by: piecewise on July 14, 2014, 10:16:31 am
Run several tests (same parameters as the recent tests Tavik did for his Halberd), give the increase or decrease in effectiveness (keeping in mind different resource costs) compared to Tavik's most recent Halberd tests (without perfect rolls):1.Did about 30% better. Faster, smaller, harder to hit.
1) replace current halberd design with the smaller one (you said it could be made smaller, to about 8 feet, without losing anything)
2) replace halberd design with standard battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
3) replace halberd design with mobility battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
4) replace halberd design with melee battlesuit carrying the same weapons (or weapons of comparable strength and cost)
For reference, this is the test I'm talking about:QuoteNow do all that again but observe with normal rolls. Do 10 times then get an evaluation of the Halberd.Speed and maneuvering is its greatest strength, that's for sure. But basically, if someone shoots it in the leg and slows it down, it is boned. Very boned.
Otherwise, the weapons work fairly well, though the blades really don't work against anything with much armor.
If the Battle suits are Chromehounds mechs, then yours is Armored core style.QuoteDepends on if we factor in the Artillery fun time, which rather reduced your forces.
Run two tests, one where Artillery fun time remains like it was, the other where the simulation is reset. Get in- or decrease in effectiveness for UWMQuoteIt varies by mission, but on average it's about 20%, though thats considering the UWM's massive sod production system and the fact they can crank out sods for almost nothing. On an interesting note it would mean you could have several hundred year old sods that have seen combat on dozens or hundreds of worlds.
Could the average UWM sod actually benefit from this battlefield experience, or not? Could our current upgraded sods benefit from it? Is it possible to create sods that are smart and independent enough to benefit from it? If yes, would we face the loyalty problems we would with that 'guerilla sod'?Quote@RC: Do the training course in that program piecewise did the warehouse history thing. And have the player pass a virtual multiple choice test in the end, where wrong options kill your virtual self in gruesome ways.An interesting idea, but it would be a huge amount of work. I don't think I can devote the time or energy for that, though if other people were to help it might be possible.QuoteAlso, as to the training course, pickmepickmepickme. Modern military tactics, especially CQB, is one of my favorite things. I have more information than is actually useful.))
Sure, but you'll have to wait until the flesh horror stuff on your planet is solved before Saint can help with that IC. But until then we can plan things through OOC. I'm gonna lay down a framework for these vids soon, so hold your horses for a little while.
@ Sean and Tavik: why not merge your designs and work together? If your stuff is going to fill the same niche, I think that'd be the most optimal way to go about it. Yes; I know there's pride involved in wanting your own design to be proven best and used, but I think the two of you working together would find the best solution to the 'lightly armored rapid assault mech' problem.Dammit why do people keep stealing tinker ideas out of my head when I'm on mission? First the goop sprayer now the electroreactive ballista. This is why I wanted to buy that vr backpack.Heh, welcome to my world. But if another works out your idea in a good way, does it matter all that much you weren't the one to do it? After all, you know you had a good idea, you just didn't get the time to work on it. And you can still help out in OOC. For example, do you (or anyone else) have an idea to improve upon the goop thrower/universal chem thrower?
2.All battle suits do about the same, after the data is averaged out across several simulations. In general melee type has most kills, lowest survivability, while the other two are about even, with better survivability then the the halberd and over all more kills, but only because they can go toe to toe with other battle suits with less chance of being killed.
3.Sods can benefit from battlefield experience, yes. They're dumb but at least in terms of battle and things they know, they can recognize patterns. It might take them a while to get it through their skulls, but they can learn.
Post by: syvarris on July 14, 2014, 11:00:05 am
Spoiler: Arguments with Paris, Volume 1, Preface (click to show/hide)
An interesting idea, but it would be a huge amount of work. I don't think I can devote the time or energy for that, though if other people were to help it might be possible.
I would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"
Sure, but you'll have to wait until the flesh horror stuff on your planet is solved before Saint can help with that IC. But until then we can plan things through OOC. I'm gonna lay down a framework for these vids soon, so hold your horses for a little while.
I don't think Saint would even help IC. He's supposed to know almost nothing about actual military tactics and operations, and only knows stuff about weapons and equipment because he spent a year studying it.
That said, I'm pretty terrible at keeping my character IC when it would limit my own fun.
Heh, welcome to my world. But if another works out your idea in a good way, does it matter all that much you weren't the one to do it? After all, you know you had a good idea, you just didn't get the time to work on it. And you can still help out in OOC. For example, do you (or anyone else) have an idea to improve upon the goop thrower/universal chem thrower?
Of course it matters! Everyone has to know that you are the best tinker and have all the genius ideas! What's the point if you don't get recognized for coming up with them?
FYI, I'm making fun of myself here, not someone else.
This might be out of bounds, but I have a question: Do small automanipulators need batteries, like the handheld manips that use Uncon?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 14, 2014, 11:17:04 am
@ Sean and Tavik: why not merge your designs and work together? If your stuff is going to fill the same niche, I think that'd be the most optimal way to go about it. Yes; I know there's pride involved in wanting your own design to be proven best and used, but I think the two of you working together would find the best solution to the 'lightly armored rapid assault mech' problem.
We'd kind of be working long-distance, and we're not yet in time-sync, and Anton has a nonzero chance of not surviving until then anyway. Plus, Anton's design needs certain important technological breakthroughs. But yeah, like I said, the two projects are likely to end up being related. Either one based off the other, or one inspired by the other.
I kinda think PW wouldn't mind if you ignore the time-sync suff, he has said as much in the past. You are right Anton can't help right now IC, but you can always discuss things OOC. You do what you want of course, I just suspect that, if there are two designs that somwhat fill the same niche, one will just be forgotten in favor of the other, which could be a waste since you both have interesting ideas the other doesn't.
But there's almost nothing to discuss! The design philosophies in both cases seem to be exceedingly similar - a light-armor, highly mobile mechsuit with extra punch in close combat. Except mine is designed after a basic mass-produced Mecha Mook from a somewhat-known tactical mecha TBS, and his is a recreation of an advanced mass-produced hunter-killer mech from a little-known mecha anime. His is customizable with mounted ranged weapons, mine uses handheld weapons only. His uses its mobility more to evade the enemy, mine uses it more to close in with the enemy. His uses mostly existing tech, mine requires extensive R&D. They're two very different machines based around the same conceptual idea. I can no more help him design the Halberd than a swordsman can help an axeman improve his backswing.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 14, 2014, 02:54:04 pm
2) Are there weapon systems the UWM (often) uses that we haven't seen yet? If yes, what are they?
3) How smart and independent could sods be made? At what point do loyalty problems emerge?
4) Can you give me a % increase in effectiveness for the UWM if they used robosods during the battle for Hep? And could you tell me how the ratio of effectiveness/cost changes? Run two tests: once with artillery funtimes, one without.
Quote
But there's almost nothing to discuss! The design philosophies in both cases seem to be exceedingly similar - a light-armor, highly mobile mechsuit with extra punch in close combat. Except mine is designed after a basic mass-produced Mecha Mook from a somewhat-known tactical mecha TBS, and his is a recreation of an advanced mass-produced hunter-killer mech from a little-known mecha anime. His is customizable with mounted ranged weapons, mine uses handheld weapons only. His uses its mobility more to evade the enemy, mine uses it more to close in with the enemy. His uses mostly existing tech, mine requires extensive R&D. They're two very different machines based around the same conceptual idea. I can no more help him design the Halberd than a swordsman can help an axeman improve his backswing.
If you keep your designs apart, then indeed there is not. However, I proposed you guys merged your designs into one. In that case, you'd need to decide what parts of each design to use.
Quote
I would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"Yeah, multiple choice situations are hard to pull of. But even without that, just presenting the info, with a multiple-choice quiz at the end could be feasible. Or maybe you're presented with a few options, and for each option it tells you the advantages, disadvantages and risks, which you can then compare with what you had thought of yourself.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 14, 2014, 03:17:01 pm
If you keep your designs apart, then indeed there is not. However, I proposed you guys merged your designs into one. In that case, you'd need to decide what parts of each design to use.
The problem is that there isn't anything to merge. It's one or the other, built around essentially the same frame.
Both designs are high-mobility, low-armor, with mobility rollers in the feet, shoulder pylons, and a shield. One uses its pylons for rocket pods, the other for mounted weapons. One has a short-range plasma emitter in its arm, the other doesn't. In effect, the closest we can get to merging the two projects together is making them both based on the same chassis, that can be refitted into one model or the other, with just a few stages of "inbetween" like putting the Plasma Stake on the Halberd.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 14, 2014, 04:53:24 pm
Say you decide on a chassis. Then, for example, you take the rocket pods from the one, and the plasma emitter from the other. Or maybe got for the myomers from the one, and the electric armor from the other. Then, in the end, you have one bot using ideas and stuff from both designs.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 14, 2014, 08:27:48 pm
@Sean: Thanks for the helpful suggestions. That's a good idea. I could run some tests on something like that later.
@Syvarris: We had the exact same argument in the past. You actually need automanipulators to be as large as the ones used on ships to have them be self-sustaining. So it could work on a spaceship (or perhaps a Titan or other large vehicle) but not on something you want to be man-portable/cheap. Yes, I know piecewise usually doesn't keep track of batteries and ammo anymore.
Do person sized automanipulators use standard manipulator batteries?Well, sorta. The use more of the driving substance at least.
Do ship sized automanipulators use some larger version of that battery?
Quote
I would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"I was mostly joking with that, but if you're serious:
Not all multiple choice games are bad. It depends on the creativity of the author and how good they can be.
For example: Escaping the Prison (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/533001), a fun short multiple choice game. Or at least I find it fun.
Not that something like that would be good for a training program, because this displays a situation which relies on luck and rule of funny. In a training program you need the outcome to be less affected by luck and more realistic, since you're trying to teach someone instead of amusing them.
To create a fun training program, you'd need to challenge the player, you'd need to give them a choice that is the tactically correct choice but not the obvious choice (for example, it relies on a clue hidden in a previous choice). You'd need to make them be able to have a good score by making the right choices but only be able to get a 100% score by making the awesome choices. And you could put some funny bits in there in the non-combat situations, like when the instructor is speaking or when the player is given their evaluation. Or maybe even in the combat itself, if you find a good place to put the funny bit in.
What are Titans armed with usually?
Are they more "Weapons Platform","Mobile Bunker","Carrier","All of the above","Something else"?
How are Titans deployed on a planet? Can they fly or are there larger Titan Carriers? Or maybe they temporarily negate gravity like the Sword does? Or are they simply synthflesh battleships that usually stay in orbit, simply taking advantage of the physics bending abilities of synthflesh, only landing when absolutely necessary?
Are automanipulator shields in use on larger vessels like Battleships? If not, why? Do they somehow overheat or run out of juice and have to recharge? Or would they need to be as big as the ship to offer proper protection?
Post by: piecewise on July 16, 2014, 12:44:02 pm
((Normally I wait until the argument really gets going to start off the book, but spoilering them to start is probably better. And serves as something of a warning, I suppose.))They don't have batteries in the same way, they're single use.Spoiler: Arguments with Paris, Volume 1, Preface (click to show/hide)An interesting idea, but it would be a huge amount of work. I don't think I can devote the time or energy for that, though if other people were to help it might be possible.
I would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"Sure, but you'll have to wait until the flesh horror stuff on your planet is solved before Saint can help with that IC. But until then we can plan things through OOC. I'm gonna lay down a framework for these vids soon, so hold your horses for a little while.
I don't think Saint would even help IC. He's supposed to know almost nothing about actual military tactics and operations, and only knows stuff about weapons and equipment because he spent a year studying it.
That said, I'm pretty terrible at keeping my character IC when it would limit my own fun.Heh, welcome to my world. But if another works out your idea in a good way, does it matter all that much you weren't the one to do it? After all, you know you had a good idea, you just didn't get the time to work on it. And you can still help out in OOC. For example, do you (or anyone else) have an idea to improve upon the goop thrower/universal chem thrower?
Of course it matters! Everyone has to know that you are the best tinker and have all the genius ideas! What's the point if you don't get recognized for coming up with them?
FYI, I'm making fun of myself here, not someone else.
This might be out of bounds, but I have a question: Do small automanipulators need batteries, like the handheld manips that use Uncon?
1) Could you tell me what the rest of the waves during Hep defense looked like? The ones we didn't fight because timeskip? Because I'm curious to the other weapons the UWM uses.1. other waves? I think that directory might have been reformatted. Try again?
2) Are there weapon systems the UWM (often) uses that we haven't seen yet? If yes, what are they?
3) How smart and independent could sods be made? At what point do loyalty problems emerge?
4) Can you give me a % increase in effectiveness for the UWM if they used robosods during the battle for Hep? And could you tell me how the ratio of effectiveness/cost changes? Run two tests: once with artillery funtimes, one without.QuoteBut there's almost nothing to discuss! The design philosophies in both cases seem to be exceedingly similar - a light-armor, highly mobile mechsuit with extra punch in close combat. Except mine is designed after a basic mass-produced Mecha Mook from a somewhat-known tactical mecha TBS, and his is a recreation of an advanced mass-produced hunter-killer mech from a little-known mecha anime. His is customizable with mounted ranged weapons, mine uses handheld weapons only. His uses its mobility more to evade the enemy, mine uses it more to close in with the enemy. His uses mostly existing tech, mine requires extensive R&D. They're two very different machines based around the same conceptual idea. I can no more help him design the Halberd than a swordsman can help an axeman improve his backswing.
If you keep your designs apart, then indeed there is not. However, I proposed you guys merged your designs into one. In that case, you'd need to decide what parts of each design to use.QuoteI would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"Yeah, multiple choice situations are hard to pull of. But even without that, just presenting the info, with a multiple-choice quiz at the end could be feasible. Or maybe you're presented with a few options, and for each option it tells you the advantages, disadvantages and risks, which you can then compare with what you had thought of yourself.
2.Thats a bit difficult to say. They're often situational, you see. The use of gas bombs and toxic-fame troops is common in colony control and "liquidation" so to speak, but you've never seen them since they're not really as useful against people in open areas, especially people in space suits. So you're gonna have to narrow the type of engagement. Also, you're gonna have to assume that they're going to develop new shit to counteract your actions. (Translation: This info has a half-life.)
3.Curious question, and a difficult one. Intelligence and independence are, of course, not simple sliders. I can't say "oh yeah, 45% intelligent is the threshold. But 44%? Fine." it's more to do with specific kinds of intelligence and independence. The capacity for simple reasoning, or hell, even complex reasoning, does not necessarily correspond with free thinking or possible disobedience. There was a good deal of research done in the past on such things, most of it in regard to wetware computers, to prevent feedback while keeping some degree of personality. The doctor might have some insights, but calibrating it might just come down to time and a degree of trial and error, different models on field tests, weeding out the ones that don't perform well.
4.To be honest, these %'s are all just guesses, obviously. I don't have a working model here to simulate it. But lets go with this: basically what it would do is make lower end rolls survivable and let injured sods continue to fight, to some degree. So if we assume that 3's would have a good chance of incapacitating, and 2's would bring em down good, in terms of flesh, then we can get a rough estimate of somewhere between 16-30% increase in efficiency if we're just counting "Stay alive and keep fighting" as our goal. What that would translate to in full scale retelling of the battle, I don't know, probably a lot more of me writing about half a robot clawing it's way toward the bunker with a machine gun in one hand.
I don't have enough time (nor the desire, since I don't draw any enjoyment from this) to argue like that, so I won't. Don't know why I bothered in the first place.1.Depends on the type.
@Sean: Thanks for the helpful suggestions. That's a good idea. I could run some tests on something like that later.
@Syvarris: We had the exact same argument in the past. You actually need automanipulators to be as large as the ones used on ships to have them be self-sustaining. So it could work on a spaceship (or perhaps a Titan or other large vehicle) but not on something you want to be man-portable/cheap. Yes, I know piecewise usually doesn't keep track of batteries and ammo anymore.Do person sized automanipulators use standard manipulator batteries?Well, sorta. The use more of the driving substance at least.
Do ship sized automanipulators use some larger version of that battery?QuoteI would be willing to help out with something like that, but I'm not sure if it would work well. If it's similar to multiple choice games (Which is what I think Twine is for?), then it would probably result in a lot of "Do you order the sods to: Charge stupidly and suicidally? Advance slowly and carefully with little support? Enact a complicated plan that is obviously the right choice?"I was mostly joking with that, but if you're serious:
Not all multiple choice games are bad. It depends on the creativity of the author and how good they can be.
For example: Escaping the Prison (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/533001), a fun short multiple choice game. Or at least I find it fun.
Not that something like that would be good for a training program, because this displays a situation which relies on luck and rule of funny. In a training program you need the outcome to be less affected by luck and more realistic, since you're trying to teach someone instead of amusing them.
To create a fun training program, you'd need to challenge the player, you'd need to give them a choice that is the tactically correct choice but not the obvious choice (for example, it relies on a clue hidden in a previous choice). You'd need to make them be able to have a good score by making the right choices but only be able to get a 100% score by making the awesome choices. And you could put some funny bits in there in the non-combat situations, like when the instructor is speaking or when the player is given their evaluation. Or maybe even in the combat itself, if you find a good place to put the funny bit in.
What are Titans armed with usually?
Are they more "Weapons Platform","Mobile Bunker","Carrier","All of the above","Something else"?
How are Titans deployed on a planet? Can they fly or are there larger Titan Carriers? Or maybe they temporarily negate gravity like the Sword does? Or are they simply synthflesh battleships that usually stay in orbit, simply taking advantage of the physics bending abilities of synthflesh, only landing when absolutely necessary?
Are automanipulator shields in use on larger vessels like Battleships? If not, why? Do they somehow overheat or run out of juice and have to recharge? Or would they need to be as big as the ship to offer proper protection?
2. Depends, but the "all of the above" option works in most cases. If you really want to see, VR it and get inside one.
3.That depends as well. Most are carried aboard supermassive carriers, which would deliver them and huge amounts of other things to a target, though, if I remember right, there's only one remaining supercarrier and it's derelict. Now adays they're built on the planet they guard. They're also rare as hen teeth. There were a few...unique ones though. But I don't think you have the security clearance for that.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 16, 2014, 06:06:22 pm
Quote
1. other waves? I think that directory might have been reformatted. Try again?
1) The first wave were the sods and battlesuits and such. Second were the mass of drones. There would have been more, but we skipped them to get to the boarding. I'm curious as to what the other waves/dangers would have been.
Quote
2. So you're gonna have to narrow the type of engagement. Also, you're gonna have to assume that they're going to develop new shit to counteract your actions. (Translation: This info has a half-life.)2) How would they defend a military base? How would they assault it (assume they need to capture it, not just destroy)? And if said base has anti-air/drop pod defenses (so they can't drop in with battlesuits and such)?
Quote
3.Curious question, and a difficult one. Intelligence and independence are, of course, not simple sliders.3) I know, but even so you gave me a better idea of how to go about the sod intelligence. Guess I'll have to go bother Doc some more.
That said, could you perhaps give me a general idea, based on previous (IC, as in in-universe) data, on certain threshholds? For example: "Once a sod is intelligent enough to perform completely independant on the battlefield on par with a trained human, then questions of obediency or loyalty potentially come into play."
Quote
4.To be honest, these %'s are all just guesses, obviously.I know it's difficult, it's just that it's handy to have some sort of measurement, even if it's very abstract or with large margins (e.g. "10 to 40%") so we can make informed decisions. Giving broad ideas is good enough usually. The % is just to try and get a bit more concrete answer, so one can actually prove to another player of why it's neccesary.
4) Lastly, could certain research on Hep be done automatically? Say I need a material to have X properties, would I need to assign this to a Hep team, or could ARESTEVE do it alone?
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 16, 2014, 06:57:06 pm
Post by: syvarris on July 16, 2014, 07:35:32 pm
Ignore this!
Post by: piecewise on July 18, 2014, 12:02:57 pm
Oh, we just skipped the last wave of stragglers. Nothing different.Quote1. other waves? I think that directory might have been reformatted. Try again?
1) The first wave were the sods and battlesuits and such. Second were the mass of drones. There would have been more, but we skipped them to get to the boarding. I'm curious as to what the other waves/dangers would have been.Quote2. So you're gonna have to narrow the type of engagement. Also, you're gonna have to assume that they're going to develop new shit to counteract your actions. (Translation: This info has a half-life.)2) How would they defend a military base? How would they assault it (assume they need to capture it, not just destroy)? And if said base has anti-air/drop pod defenses (so they can't drop in with battlesuits and such)?Quote3.Curious question, and a difficult one. Intelligence and independence are, of course, not simple sliders.3) I know, but even so you gave me a better idea of how to go about the sod intelligence. Guess I'll have to go bother Doc some more.
That said, could you perhaps give me a general idea, based on previous (IC, as in in-universe) data, on certain threshholds? For example: "Once a sod is intelligent enough to perform completely independant on the battlefield on par with a trained human, then questions of obediency or loyalty potentially come into play."Quote4.To be honest, these %'s are all just guesses, obviously.I know it's difficult, it's just that it's handy to have some sort of measurement, even if it's very abstract or with large margins (e.g. "10 to 40%") so we can make informed decisions. Giving broad ideas is good enough usually. The % is just to try and get a bit more concrete answer, so one can actually prove to another player of why it's neccesary.
4) Lastly, could certain research on Hep be done automatically? Say I need a material to have X properties, would I need to assign this to a Hep team, or could ARESTEVE do it alone?
Defense would probably involve mostly automated defenses with varying degrees of armored troops depending on the importance of the base. Lower level bases might get groups of sods, maybe some in battle suits. Higher level bases might get Heavy Protectorates (Who are called that because they are considered sovereign and exempt from local law.) or High Guards, together with battle suits or, if you're really unlucky, an avatar. And, if you try and assault somewhere they REALLY don't want you, you might find a titan.
Assuming capture, that depends on the environ of the base. They'll try and poison you out if they can. Or use radiation. If they can't do those, they'll send in ground troops much like they did on Heph. Usually they'll just bury you in sod bodies (assault forces will have so many of the fucking things they'll win by sheer attrition, even if it takes 100 sods to kill one defender.) Assuming they want it fast, they'll send in human soldiers of varying kinds. They're not very subtle or tactical most of the time; they don't need to be.
Hmm. Well sods that are completely independent can be made loyal by restricting their cognitive capacities for understanding ideas. In a sense, built in neurological blinders. They can't defect to the enemy because they don't have the neural capacity to understand what the hell the enemy is talking about. Of course that also means it won't be able to understand other things...
Basically, as soon as they're capable of understanding their motivations on anything other then an instinctual level, you have potential problems. And the problem with that is, to be able to be independent they need to understand their orders and be able to think about how to carry them out. Thats why they are, in their normal form, basically just highly trained dogs.
It could be, though you'd need to create the automated materials labs for ARESTEVE to use. He can simulate a lot but sometimes you just need to have the physical stuff there.
Are automanipulator shields in use on larger vessels like Battleships? If not, why? Do they somehow overheat or run out of juice and have to recharge? Or would they need to be as big as the ship to offer proper protection?They are, but they have limits. Think about the force of a round fired from the sword. Not try and stop that round within a short distance. Thats a fuck ton of force, to use a technical term. So while their automated manip systems provide some degree of protection against smaller weapons (Below a certain size or power you're basically never going to damage one of those ships) they really can't stop a full power round without an automanip of horrendous size and frightening cost; a cost measured not solely in dollars, either.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 18, 2014, 12:06:40 pm
Okay, I'll wait to see whether or not I'm going to the rescue mission before posting an action.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 19, 2014, 07:00:46 pm
1) what are heavy Protectorates? What gear do they carry?
2) what are High Guards? What gear do they carry?
3) Could you give a short list of technologies we have the UWM doesn't in terms of things that could be used for defense or armor? For example, that anti-laser defense coating made from the Samsonite sand. Are there technologies we don't have the UWM does (that Steve knows of, of course)?
Just realized I'm also 'on mission', so I'll refrain from tinkering.
Post by: NAV on August 22, 2014, 01:11:04 pm
Monorazor can't stab. This reduces its effective reach, prevents its use against flat planes like walls, doors, or shields, and limits its use as a bayonet.
Take the thinnest possible rod (or strand) of mythril that will remain rigid. make it 1 meter long.
Give it a handle. Attach a monorazor's vibrator in the handle.
Does this work? How well does it cut compared to a monorazor? How expensive?
(Mythril's that extremely strong, extremely expensive metal. This design only calls for extremely small amounts so it might be economically viable.)
Post by: tryrar on August 23, 2014, 12:12:26 am
1:Spawn a Gauss Cannon. Examine it in action to determine the cause of the kickback
Edit: Scratch that. I have a better idea for something that might be very useful. Take a gauss cannon frame, the meta-material rails from the Lesho, some auto-stabilization systems for reducing recoil,and as many charging circuits as possible to keep fire rate up, while keeping the strength requirement at around 10. The idea here is to make essentially a man-portable HMG/autocannon for when you absolutely need to destroy incoming groups of armored targets(and anything else for that matter, really). I'm using rails to simplify things a bit, and the longer the rail, the more the muzzle velocity. This allows me to balance armor piercing with fire rate.
Post by: piecewise on August 25, 2014, 09:12:42 am
Project name: MonorapierNot a bad idea. Basically a Mythril Needle being vibrated at high speed eh? Hmm. I think it would work, however attempting to use it against thick armor might be dangerous. After all, if it is easier to vibrate the handle then the needle then thats what will happen, so if it gets stuck into the armor then you might have a hard time retrieving it. You might honestly be good with just the spike in most occasions.
Monorazor can't stab. This reduces its effective reach, prevents its use against flat planes like walls, doors, or shields, and limits its use as a bayonet.
Take the thinnest possible rod (or strand) of mythril that will remain rigid. make it 1 meter long.
Give it a handle. Attach a monorazor's vibrator in the handle.
Does this work? How well does it cut compared to a monorazor? How expensive?
(Mythril's that extremely strong, extremely expensive metal. This design only calls for extremely small amounts so it might be economically viable.)
Project:ExcaliburHmm. Well to be honest something like that would probably be exoskeleton portable only. Mostly for balance reasons. Also, Feyri's already basically got one of these, though hers is rotary. Should take a look at it when she gets back.Goal:Investigate ways to reduce or eliminate the suicidal kickback on Gauss Cannons
1:Spawn a Gauss Cannon. Examine it in action to determine the cause of the kickback
Edit: Scratch that. I have a better idea for something that might be very useful. Take a gauss cannon frame, the meta-material rails from the Lesho, some auto-stabilization systems for reducing recoil,and as many charging circuits as possible to keep fire rate up, while keeping the strength requirement at around 10. The idea here is to make essentially a man-portable HMG/autocannon for when you absolutely need to destroy incoming groups of armored targets(and anything else for that matter, really). I'm using rails to simplify things a bit, and the longer the rail, the more the muzzle velocity. This allows me to balance armor piercing with fire rate.
If she gets back.
Post by: tryrar on August 25, 2014, 12:14:50 pm
Anyways, until then, continue with the current design. Spawn an exoskeleton for me, then spawn one of the guns as per specifications and do some test fires. See if it works, for one, then see what sort of fire rate I can get from this(as a note, this is envisioned to be belt-fed). Then check armor piercing(assuming a barrel diameter of 40mm, and throwing the slugs at around mach 7) by spawning a battlesuit and seeing how many slugs it takes to punch through the armor.
As a side project, bring up my Mjolnir shell, size it for my new cannon, and see how many kinamps I can sandwich on the front and still be cost-effective. Test its armor shattering capabilities(as assumed with a direct hit), and price a belt of 10, 50, and 100 of these.
Post by: NAV on August 25, 2014, 12:24:58 pm
Estimate token cost.
design a 30cm version for roughly 1/3 the price. Ideal for bayonet use.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 25, 2014, 04:58:50 pm
How much does this cost?
How far does it fire horizontally? What about a ballistic arc?
Post by: Toaster on August 25, 2014, 08:49:59 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 26, 2014, 03:35:42 am
For comparison, you're talking about something equivalent to the W54 warhead launched from the Davy Crockett recoil-less rifle system-and that fired from at least a couple miles away, and relied on extreme radiation hazard for effect due to just how inaccurate it was. A nuclear RPG would be well within the blast radius of even the smallest warhead.
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 26, 2014, 04:39:55 am
An 1/8 kiloton charge is immediately lethal in a range of approximately 400 metres (not accounting for radiation poisoning).
So you could fire it and escape unharmed. (Whether or not it is wise to do so is another story.)
You could even fit the missile with some sort of computer+camera to help guide it on target and make sure it doesn't detonate while in range of the user.
However, while this might be a cheap launchable nuclear weapon, it is clearly not as good as a gauss cannon or LESHO rifle or similar nuke launching systems.
Something like those remote controlled nuke drones Sean used might be more useful, more controllable and just as cheap, the only downside being that it is not as fast and could be more easily shot by the enemy.
Post by: piecewise on August 27, 2014, 10:42:43 am
Exoskeleton portable is fine, since I was thinking of grabbing one anyways. I also had plans for a vehicle mount mod for it, so it works out. Oh, and thanks for the tip about Feyri's rotary cannon, I'll look on how it works later and maybe mod my design.It works, however there is a problem with using it to fire repeatedly very quickly; the rails heat up and start to distort and lose conductivity, meaning the shots get weaker the longer it fires and if fired too long, it will break all together. It's quite powerful (It's a rapid fire LESHO for god sake) but it is also very expensive. Even the Mjolnir shell of yours will cost several tokens each, meaning that this massive, expensive gun will be firing massive expensive shells at high speed. (http://youtu.be/jHgZh4GV9G0?t=27s)
Anyways, until then, continue with the current design. Spawn an exoskeleton for me, then spawn one of the guns as per specifications and do some test fires. See if it works, for one, then see what sort of fire rate I can get from this(as a note, this is envisioned to be belt-fed). Then check armor piercing(assuming a barrel diameter of 40mm, and throwing the slugs at around mach 7) by spawning a battlesuit and seeing how many slugs it takes to punch through the armor.
As a side project, bring up my Mjolnir shell, size it for my new cannon, and see how many kinamps I can sandwich on the front and still be cost-effective. Test its armor shattering capabilities(as assumed with a direct hit), and price a belt of 10, 50, and 100 of these.
Give it a strap like a wii remote. Should solve that problem.That would just tear the strap. Or the hand, whichever came first. Probably better to include some sort of remote "Vibrate off" button.
Estimate token cost.
design a 30cm version for roughly 1/3 the price. Ideal for bayonet use.
Lets see, how long was this thing? 1 meter? And tapered, I assume. You're not gonna like the price. The bayonet would cost 5.
Attempt to adapt an RPG to fire 1/8 kiloton charges with fins and the engine part of the original ammo spot-welded on.I think you might be underestimating the force of that sort of thing (http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap3d/?&clat=36.168386958824286&clng=-115.13015574313279&calt=1171.094918986934&chdg=0.157405972938568&ctlt=31.25634814941473&crll=0.28981515276680786&mlat=36.17510308978413&mlng=-115.12937338727585&mtyp=2&malt=590.8096923828125&kt=0.2)
How much does this cost?
How far does it fire horizontally? What about a ballistic arc?
You'd be much better off with a mortar. One that could fire at least a mile or so. Because while an RPG could theoretically get that kind of distance, assuming the right conditions, chances are that you're rarely going to be in the sort of situation where you'll get such a nice, unobstructed shot at a target like that.
But the general idea here works just fine and if you wanna go through with it there's nothing thats going to stop you aside from costs and teammate fear.
Post by: tryrar on August 27, 2014, 11:09:38 am
Speaking of ammo, price me the cost of a standard 200 round belt of just solid 40mm slugs. Then, create some specialized AP ammo consisting of half-sized, fin-stabilized shaped penetrators with discarding sabots(point being to concentrate ALL the force one a smaller area), and test those versus standard slugs, then price them. Next, create a HE shell, then one that has a small explosion that releases cluster munitions for an antipersonnel round, and test their effectiveness versus softer targets, and prices for a belt of both. Then, create a chem-incindiary shell using chlorine tetrafloride, price a belt of those, and test them to insure no premature detonations.
Next, create an autofeeding ammo box to put the belts in, and design a way to attach them to the gun. The ammo boxes should have a magnetic attachment system to store onto the exoskeleton until needed to swap out.
Finally, Finalize project name as the Jackhammer Autocannon, get overall cost estimates, and have Steve review this and see if this is something that might be worth sending to Hephaestus for review, and also see if I might be able to get a prototype for this.
Post by: NAV on August 27, 2014, 11:53:16 am
Design a 20cm version for 3 tokens.
Vr test to determine the best way of using this thing. How well can it cut? How well can it stab?
Can it get through battlesuit/milnoplate? Can it get through synthflesh?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 27, 2014, 05:10:06 pm
Are mark 1s radiation-proof?
*By nuclear-armed acid-shooting lunatic expendable mass-murder space magician standards
Post by: tryrar on August 27, 2014, 05:23:12 pm
Post by: Toaster on August 27, 2014, 08:28:17 pm
Are mark 1s radiation-proof?
They're a bit better than standing in the open, but not a lot.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 28, 2014, 02:10:45 am
By a fortuitous coincidence, I do have a design for a mortar already set to go, if you want me to fax it over to your char.
Can it handle side-plate-sized projectiles though? Even the 1/8ths aren't tiny.
Post by: Nikitian on August 28, 2014, 02:25:02 am
Oh, and they're smaller than football-sized, if I understand the HGC calibre correctly.))
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 28, 2014, 02:37:08 am
And at that point, I might as well just use the RPG due to small shell size and blast.
Also, that shll is equivalent to only 62 tonnes of TNT. At this point I have to seriously ask how the hell do you make it go nuclear?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 28, 2014, 02:56:01 am
Post by: Nikitian on August 28, 2014, 03:35:53 am
Oh, and if the online models I used are at least somewhat correct (they seem to be conflicting a bit), the significantly affected area (read: fireball and highest-pressure air blast radii) isn't that much reduced by halving the yield. And then, tactically speaking, at this scale of engagement, two half-yield bombs are better than one full-yield more often than not.
(You know, in cases when it's worth a 1/8kt explosion over 1/16kt, it's probably worth 1kt, and then it's worth a manipulator overload.)
And the lethal radiation: Enemy Sods probably wouldn't care much (just a little :P ), we mostly have Sword's medical facilities to deal with it, and civilians... well, they're called 'civilian casualties' for a reason, right?
The problem with conventional explosives is that we have little data on them, apart from that UWM preferred small nukes to them at this scale. Unless it is one more case of their ineptness or somehow now we have better explosives, they probably still have a point here.))
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on August 28, 2014, 04:15:45 am
Post by: tryrar on August 28, 2014, 07:15:59 am
By a fortuitous coincidence, I do have a design for a mortar already set to go, if you want me to fax it over to your char.
Can it handle side-plate-sized projectiles though? Even the 1/8ths aren't tiny.
Well, I had the tube at a barrel diameter 0f 120mm, so I can scale up if necessary.
Post by: piecewise on August 29, 2014, 12:37:39 pm
Hmm, so barrel cooling is a bit of an issue then. Bring up options for better air cooling, water cooling jackets, and the like. Worst case, disable full auto and restrict this to burst-fire to not overheat the rails. Also, scrap using Mjolnir shells with this for now, since I need to be able to actually buy ammo for this :P.Cooling via coolant circulation works under most circumstances.
Speaking of ammo, price me the cost of a standard 200 round belt of just solid 40mm slugs. Then, create some specialized AP ammo consisting of half-sized, fin-stabilized shaped penetrators with discarding sabots(point being to concentrate ALL the force one a smaller area), and test those versus standard slugs, then price them. Next, create a HE shell, then one that has a small explosion that releases cluster munitions for an antipersonnel round, and test their effectiveness versus softer targets, and prices for a belt of both. Then, create a chem-incindiary shell using chlorine tetrafloride, price a belt of those, and test them to insure no premature detonations.
Next, create an autofeeding ammo box to put the belts in, and design a way to attach them to the gun. The ammo boxes should have a magnetic attachment system to store onto the exoskeleton until needed to swap out.
Finally, Finalize project name as the Jackhammer Autocannon, get overall cost estimates, and have Steve review this and see if this is something that might be worth sending to Hephaestus for review, and also see if I might be able to get a prototype for this.
Standard 40mm with 200 rounds?! Ok, look at this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 29, 2014, 12:47:18 pm
If so are gauss rifle rounds also measured in width? Because if so then my piledriver calculations are way off.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on August 29, 2014, 12:48:31 pm
Those are 40mm rounds. That big box there holds 32 shots. You'd need 6 full boxes and 1 quarter full box to hold all that. It would be like 5 feet tall and two wide and weigh several hundred pounds. That might be a bit much for anyone not in an exoskeleton, and even then it's gonna slow em down.((Technically, those are 40mm caliber grenades, along with the gunpowder to launch them, whereas gauss rounds would be more like 40mm spheres. Each of those 40mm grenades looks like it occupies as much space as three 40mm spheres, so you'd only need just over two full boxes of them, perhaps exactly two with an efficient packing method.
Won't do much to change the weight issue though.
Also, U_P: when a gun's projectile size is mentioned, the foremost parameter is the caliber, or the diameter of the projectile. Calling it "width" is a little wrong, but effectively that's what it is.))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 29, 2014, 12:58:16 pm
I always thought bullet caliber was length.
Post by: tryrar on August 29, 2014, 01:01:11 pm
Still going to need ammo prices and overall weapon costs, as well as whether I can get this prototyped.
Edit:Run some tests for the people at hep so they don't need to ask for the data:
1) Baseline test of weapon against guy in mk 1
2) Test against robosod
3)Test against synthflesh sod
4) Test against a guy in a mk III and milnoplate
5)Full performance test against a battlesuit
6)Just for completeness, see if it can hurt a AOW at all
Finally, spawn a completed Jackhammer, and load up a full combat scenario: A couple squads and I(with the Jackhammer) in a war-torn city(lots of rubble, ruined buildings, and such) holding a hardened, fortified point blocking progress deeper into the city versus waves of increasingly difficult enemies, each wave containing at least one hard target of some description. The squads aiding me have a mix of weapons costing 10 or less credits, and some have exoskeletons with milnoplate. Ammo is assumed to be infinite for the purpose of the test, but time for swapping mags is still needed. (Since I want to run this manually, this can happen here or the On-ship thread, whichever is more convenient for you)
Post by: NAV on August 29, 2014, 01:18:02 pm
Ok, off button. ::)Then send the design to Heph for prototyping if they like it. Then exit VR.
Design a 20cm version for 3 tokens.
Vr test to determine the best way of using this thing. How well can it cut? How well can it stab?
Can it get through battlesuit/milnoplate? Can it get through synthflesh?
Post by: piecewise on August 29, 2014, 01:22:07 pm
Fuck, missed you.Ok, off button. ::)Then send the design to Heph for prototyping if they like it. Then exit VR.
Design a 20cm version for 3 tokens.
Vr test to determine the best way of using this thing. How well can it cut? How well can it stab?
Can it get through battlesuit/milnoplate? Can it get through synthflesh?
The best way to use it is definitely to stab. Cutting is possible but not very effective.
It sort of "sinks" through thicker stuff, taking a second or two of pressure to get in. But it pierces pretty well, even through milno and battle suit plate.
Consider it sent. Might want to alert simus of it.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on August 29, 2014, 02:25:47 pm
Yep... my calculations...completely wrong...
I always thought bullet caliber was length.
That doesn't really change much if the projectile is a sphere though. :P
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 29, 2014, 02:40:20 pm
Quote
Design a 20cm version for 3 tokens.
Quote
It sort of "sinks" through thicker stuff, taking a second or two of pressure to get in. But it pierces pretty well, even through milno and battle suit plate.
How thick is Milno plate? How thick is full battlesuit armor at the front?
Post by: syvarris on August 29, 2014, 04:04:04 pm
...I was thinking the rounds would be smaller overall without needing propellent, but that's a good illustration of me underestimating sizes here(I dunno how I thought soda can-sized rounds could reasonably fit 200 in a box). Ok, standard would be whatever amount that can fit in a box of reasonable size, preferably as close to 50 rounds as possible. Also, what the heck is that in the picture, some sort of squad-portable 40mm cannon?(looks baddass btw)
Still going to need ammo prices and overall weapon costs, as well as whether I can get this prototyped.
((Those rounds are mostly without propellent, compared to a rifle round. It's also a much lighter projectile than a comparable (hah) bullet, because it's an explosive. And it's very low velocity- only 240 m/s out of those mk19s.
Your bullet, especially if it's based on an upsized gauss rifle, is probably larger than those, cartride and all. Bullets are not spheres.
Anyways, to answer your question, those are mk19 automatic grenade launchers. Not cannons. I see no possible reason to give a squad a portable automatic weapon which fires forty millimeter bullets. Seriously, even if they're going up against a tank, it would be cheaper, lighter, faster, and more effective to give a carl gustav to every soldier.))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 29, 2014, 06:02:01 pm
Ummm it does if i used 20x10 cylinder instead of a 20x20 cylinder or 20mm sphere, its only like 1/4 of the actual volume.Yep... my calculations...completely wrong...
I always thought bullet caliber was length.
That doesn't really change much if the projectile is a sphere though. :P
Post by: NAV on August 29, 2014, 06:13:58 pm
1. Effects on the human body. Does the vibrating make it do any serious damage, more than just a small hole?
2. Effectiveness vs different targets. Including minimum length required to pierce the squishy bits.(Mk1, mk3, robobody, synthflesh, civic defenders, battlesuit, and a block of steel.)
3. Combat tests
Run some duels between someone with a monorazor, and someone with a same length rapier. Who generally comes out on top?
Try testing a squad of soldiers armed with gauss rifles with 20cm bayonets vs a squad armed with gauss rifles and monorazors. Close range urban combat. who wins?
Is it better than a same length monorazor against full synthflesh? against a battlesuit?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 29, 2014, 07:04:18 pm
Thats... a pretty big difference id say.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 30, 2014, 04:52:05 pm
Calculate token cost.
Edit: don't know if I made it clear but the idea here is a mortar which you can also point at the enemy if needed. Ignore that if it seems dumb.
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 30, 2014, 05:29:59 pm
Or do you want the projectiles to be rocket propelled instead of gauss propelled?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 30, 2014, 05:36:41 pm
Isn't that essentially what a gauss cannon is? Maybe with a few additions like variable power settings and better targeting systems?1) rocket propelled
Or do you want the projectiles to be rocket propelled instead of gauss propelled?
2) Mortar for indirect fire
3) man-portable
4) cheap
Post by: Nikitian on August 30, 2014, 07:11:08 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 31, 2014, 06:42:24 pm
Post by: piecewise on September 03, 2014, 12:05:26 pm
I forget with milno plate, but Battle suit is thick enough to render it mostly useless, at least in most areas. The Torso where the pilot is, for instance. But you could still stab into the limbs and reach stuff inside them.QuoteDesign a 20cm version for 3 tokens.QuoteIt sort of "sinks" through thicker stuff, taking a second or two of pressure to get in. But it pierces pretty well, even through milno and battle suit plate.
How thick is Milno plate? How thick is full battlesuit armor at the front?
...I was thinking the rounds would be smaller overall without needing propellent, but that's a good illustration of me underestimating sizes here(I dunno how I thought soda can-sized rounds could reasonably fit 200 in a box). Ok, standard would be whatever amount that can fit in a box of reasonable size, preferably as close to 50 rounds as possible. Also, what the heck is that in the picture, some sort of squad-portable 40mm cannon?(looks baddass btw)It shoots 40mm grenades.
Still going to need ammo prices and overall weapon costs, as well as whether I can get this prototyped.
Edit:Run some tests for the people at hep so they don't need to ask for the data:
1) Baseline test of weapon against guy in mk 1
2) Test against robosod
3)Test against synthflesh sod
4) Test against a guy in a mk III and milnoplate
5)Full performance test against a battlesuit
6)Just for completeness, see if it can hurt a AOW at all
Finally, spawn a completed Jackhammer, and load up a full combat scenario: A couple squads and I(with the Jackhammer) in a war-torn city(lots of rubble, ruined buildings, and such) holding a hardened, fortified point blocking progress deeper into the city versus waves of increasingly difficult enemies, each wave containing at least one hard target of some description. The squads aiding me have a mix of weapons costing 10 or less credits, and some have exoskeletons with milnoplate. Ammo is assumed to be infinite for the purpose of the test, but time for swapping mags is still needed. (Since I want to run this manually, this can happen here or the On-ship thread, whichever is more convenient for you)
Ammo price. I dunno. Weapon price. Expensive. Not sure. Something over 15. How much is a Lesho? Because it's that plus cooling systems and other stuff. So expensive. Ha, double meaning.
1-4 dead. It's a fucking lesho. It punches through tanks
5 damaging. Lots good damage
6 not as good but still not bad.
Take it to the on the ship thread. Probably better.
alrightyOk, off button. ::)Then send the design to Heph for prototyping if they like it. Then exit VR.
Design a 20cm version for 3 tokens.
Vr test to determine the best way of using this thing. How well can it cut? How well can it stab?
Can it get through battlesuit/milnoplate? Can it get through synthflesh?
Talked to simus about that. Dunno milno, probably not 7 inches. Battle suit is thick enough though.QuoteDesign a 20cm version for 3 tokens.QuoteIt sort of "sinks" through thicker stuff, taking a second or two of pressure to get in. But it pierces pretty well, even through milno and battle suit plate.
How thick is Milno plate? How thick is full battlesuit armor at the front?
More Rapier testing. Sorry PW.
1. Effects on the human body. Does the vibrating make it do any serious damage, more than just a small hole?
2. Effectiveness vs different targets. Including minimum length required to pierce the squishy bits.(Mk1, mk3, robobody, synthflesh, civic defenders, battlesuit, and a block of steel.)
3. Combat tests
Run some duels between someone with a monorazor, and someone with a same length rapier. Who generally comes out on top?
Try testing a squad of soldiers armed with gauss rifles with 20cm bayonets vs a squad armed with gauss rifles and monorazors. Close range urban combat. who wins?
Is it better than a same length monorazor against full synthflesh? against a battlesuit?
Yes. It does good damage
Against most targets the length is fine. MK1-3 are basically no length, robo body probably like 5 inches into the brain, civic defenders have no armor thickness really, battle suit is too think. Block of steel has no organs.
It's about even, with a slight advantage to the rapier because of reach.
This stays about even too, if only because everything is mostly the same. Monorazor or vibrating penetrator, as I will now and forever call it, it matters very little when the target is soft squishy man meat. Slashed or stabbed, it makes little difference; you're going to die.
Against synth and battlesuits though, it tends to work better, if only because of penetration.
Via carefree welding and cutting of RPG rounds, adapt 1/16 mininukes to fire from a multipurpose tube with folding legs for emergency direct-fire use.For a tube? like 2-3 tokens. Seriously the launcher isn't going to be the main cost here.
Calculate token cost.
Edit: don't know if I made it clear but the idea here is a mortar which you can also point at the enemy if needed. Ignore that if it seems dumb.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 03, 2014, 03:33:56 pm
Post by: piecewise on September 05, 2014, 12:02:27 pm
Yeah, that's why I asked about the cost of those gauss cannon ammo plus rocket plus fin.Where?
Via carefree welding and cutting of RPG rounds, adapt 1/16 mininukes to fire from a multipurpose tube with folding legs for emergency direct-fire use.I see nothing about gauss stuff
Calculate token cost.
Edit: don't know if I made it clear but the idea here is a mortar which you can also point at the enemy if needed. Ignore that if it seems dumb.
Post by: Nikitian on September 05, 2014, 12:15:47 pm
Post by: tryrar on September 05, 2014, 02:55:56 pm
Anyways, cancel that combat test scenario, I had a better idea for a weapon I can make that I might actually be able to afford right now. Basically, a Heavy Grenade Launcher. Take a 90mm tube, add a few gauss coils and charging circuits,, a 6-shot revolver cylinder, a computerized sight/rangefinder, and a auto-stabilizer to decrease recoil.(Basically, I'm going for a drastically upsized Milkor MGL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL) using gauss tech). The fuses are computer controlled and set, with settings from impact to proximity to VTF(Variable Timed Fuse). It includes a manual disarm and a manual override detonation button.
Test first to see if there's any problems, then do tests for each of the following ammo types:
First, standard high explosive. Spawn a group of 100 sods, all clustered in a circle with them about 5 meters from each other. Explode a round at the center of the cluster and note how big the explosion is and how many sods it kills. (of it kills all of them, widen the cluster by spawning 100 more sods 5 meters apart, and keep doing the test until some live)
Next, take the cluster round I designed for the Jackhammer(Explosion scatters many small submunitions), adapt it to this gun, and do the same test. How wide are the munitions scattered, and does the effect kill more or less sods overall?
Next, design a normal HEAT round(basically just a shaped charge focusing the blast forwards) and do the same test. The effective area should be much smaller, but how much? Then, spawn a battlesuit and assume a direct hit by the round. How effective is it in punching though/damaging a battlesuit's armor? How effective is it with a non-direct hit? Do a comparison with the normal HEAT round versus my Mjolnir round, and give me the pros and cons of both.
Now, an incendiary round using ClF3. Do the sod test and see how wide the affected area is and how many sods I can hit with an airbursted shell. Then, see what happens when it hits a battlesuit. How long does it take to melt though the armor, or at least disable important systems?
Finally, spawn some robosods and sythflesh sods and repeat the tests with all the shells against them. Finalize the name as the Thor MGL, and obtain costs for the weapon and all shells. Send to Hep, and see if I can get this prototyped, or at least all the materials for it to build myself.
Edit: Also add a HESH demolition round. For the uninformed, HESH stands for High Explosive Squash Head, which basically means the round is designed to pancake at impact and smush it's plastic explosive into a large patty before exploding. It is pretty decent about taking out chunks in armor, but even better at blowing off large chunks of buildings.
One last thing I want to create is a door/wallbreacher demolition device I'd like to call the Doorknocker. Basically, it is a reinforced frame holding several shaped charges in the shape of a door large enough to let in the average guy in an exoskeleton, with spikes to hold it to the door/wall long enough to detonate. Hopefully, the frame would be reusable and allow the charges to be replaced. Run tests on doors and walls of various thicknesses and materials, from wood to reinforced concrete and metal, the give cost and prototyping possibility.
Post by: NAV on September 05, 2014, 05:29:08 pm
The cost of his vibrator...hmm...the cost of his penetrator....hmm...the cost of his weapon is mainly due to the fact that he's using an extremely expensive and robust meta material for the spike. Even in small amounts it is very expensive. You could probably make one cheaper (If less robust) via research into new materials, or via use of some of the samples that are coming when the missions end. Basically, he made a combat knife out of diamond when tungsten carbide would probably do.Based on this quote, it seems there is something wrong about the design. If it can be made out of weaker materials and still function, then it can be made thinner (less material, better cutting) and still function. In the first tinker post I said to use the thinnest possible rod that will remain rigid.
Hmmm. You have any limits on price here? Because I mean you could use Mythril (Blame the science section's Tolkien hardon for that one) and literally tank a nuke, but that stuff would cost you 30 token a plate.I highly doubt a 1 meter long spiderweb thin needle (15 tokens) uses half as much material as a plate of armour (30 tokens), so either the armour is underpriced or the needle is overpriced.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 06, 2014, 01:37:45 am
Quote
Based on this quote, it seems there is something wrong about the design. If it can be made out of weaker materials and still function, then it can be made thinner (less material, better cutting) and still function. In the first tinker post I said to use the thinnest possible rod that will remain rigid.Materials may not work as simple as you imagine it. There may be a minimal thickness needed regardless or material needed. Or maybe mythrill has other properties that come into consideration. For example, do you know how with graphite it's easy to shave of layers in one direction, but hard to do in another due to the stacking of the planar layers? Maybe mythril has similar properties (in that it's stronger in one 'direction' than the other).
Quote
I highly doubt a 1 meter long spiderweb thin needle (15 tokens) uses half as much material as a plate of armour (30 tokens), so either the armour is underpriced or the needle is overpriced.
Economies of scale. If they have a bunch of armor plates lying around ready for use, but they need to do some serious work on one to get a strand of desired length and thickness without breaking it in the process, I could see the price difference being realistic.
Post by: piecewise on September 08, 2014, 10:13:19 am
The cost of his vibrator...hmm...the cost of his penetrator....hmm...the cost of his weapon is mainly due to the fact that he's using an extremely expensive and robust meta material for the spike. Even in small amounts it is very expensive. You could probably make one cheaper (If less robust) via research into new materials, or via use of some of the samples that are coming when the missions end. Basically, he made a combat knife out of diamond when tungsten carbide would probably do.Based on this quote, it seems there is something wrong about the design. If it can be made out of weaker materials and still function, then it can be made thinner (less material, better cutting) and still function. In the first tinker post I said to use the thinnest possible rod that will remain rigid.Hmmm. You have any limits on price here? Because I mean you could use Mythril (Blame the science section's Tolkien hardon for that one) and literally tank a nuke, but that stuff would cost you 30 token a plate.I highly doubt a 1 meter long spiderweb thin needle (15 tokens) uses half as much material as a plate of armour (30 tokens), so either the armour is underpriced or the needle is overpriced.
What he said.QuoteBased on this quote, it seems there is something wrong about the design. If it can be made out of weaker materials and still function, then it can be made thinner (less material, better cutting) and still function. In the first tinker post I said to use the thinnest possible rod that will remain rigid.Materials may not work as simple as you imagine it. There may be a minimal thickness needed regardless or material needed. Or maybe mythrill has other properties that come into consideration. For example, do you know how with graphite it's easy to shave of layers in one direction, but hard to do in another due to the stacking of the planar layers? Maybe mythril has similar properties (in that it's stronger in one 'direction' than the other).QuoteI highly doubt a 1 meter long spiderweb thin needle (15 tokens) uses half as much material as a plate of armour (30 tokens), so either the armour is underpriced or the needle is overpriced.
Economies of scale. If they have a bunch of armor plates lying around ready for use, but they need to do some serious work on one to get a strand of desired length and thickness without breaking it in the process, I could see the price difference being realistic.
Also, I'm just gonna show my hand a bit and say that I just don't want mytril becoming super common around here, namely because the stuff is supposed to be nigh unbreakable and rare as fuck. Took Radio a long month of concentration to make a few shards of it, let alone manufacture knives.
Whoops, life happened, sorry! Anyways, A Lesho is 18 credits according to you, so 20 seems right to me, though I'm not sure what I think ammo should cost(2 credits a belt? It should have some cost, but normal ammo would just be a belt of 50 of a solid hunk of metal 40mm in diameter, so I shouldn't be outrageous.) Though, I get the feeling I won't get a prototype for this, since It is basically a Lesho with cooling and belt feed, but I can dream right? :P. In any case, still send the weapon design to hep with the data I collected.This is a hell of a wall of text
Anyways, cancel that combat test scenario, I had a better idea for a weapon I can make that I might actually be able to afford right now. Basically, a Heavy Grenade Launcher. Take a 90mm tube, add a few gauss coils and charging circuits,, a 6-shot revolver cylinder, a computerized sight/rangefinder, and a auto-stabilizer to decrease recoil.(Basically, I'm going for a drastically upsized Milkor MGL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL) using gauss tech). The fuses are computer controlled and set, with settings from impact to proximity to VTF(Variable Timed Fuse). It includes a manual disarm and a manual override detonation button.
Test first to see if there's any problems, then do tests for each of the following ammo types:
First, standard high explosive. Spawn a group of 100 sods, all clustered in a circle with them about 5 meters from each other. Explode a round at the center of the cluster and note how big the explosion is and how many sods it kills. (of it kills all of them, widen the cluster by spawning 100 more sods 5 meters apart, and keep doing the test until some live)
Next, take the cluster round I designed for the Jackhammer(Explosion scatters many small submunitions), adapt it to this gun, and do the same test. How wide are the munitions scattered, and does the effect kill more or less sods overall?
Next, design a normal HEAT round(basically just a shaped charge focusing the blast forwards) and do the same test. The effective area should be much smaller, but how much? Then, spawn a battlesuit and assume a direct hit by the round. How effective is it in punching though/damaging a battlesuit's armor? How effective is it with a non-direct hit? Do a comparison with the normal HEAT round versus my Mjolnir round, and give me the pros and cons of both.
Now, an incendiary round using ClF3. Do the sod test and see how wide the affected area is and how many sods I can hit with an airbursted shell. Then, see what happens when it hits a battlesuit. How long does it take to melt though the armor, or at least disable important systems?
Finally, spawn some robosods and sythflesh sods and repeat the tests with all the shells against them. Finalize the name as the Thor MGL, and obtain costs for the weapon and all shells. Send to Hep, and see if I can get this prototyped, or at least all the materials for it to build myself.
Edit: Also add a HESH demolition round. For the uninformed, HESH stands for High Explosive Squash Head, which basically means the round is designed to pancake at impact and smush it's plastic explosive into a large patty before exploding. It is pretty decent about taking out chunks in armor, but even better at blowing off large chunks of buildings.
One last thing I want to create is a door/wallbreacher demolition device I'd like to call the Doorknocker. Basically, it is a reinforced frame holding several shaped charges in the shape of a door large enough to let in the average guy in an exoskeleton, with spikes to hold it to the door/wall long enough to detonate. Hopefully, the frame would be reusable and allow the charges to be replaced. Run tests on doors and walls of various thicknesses and materials, from wood to reinforced concrete and metal, the give cost and prototyping possibility.
1.Sounds about right. Consider it sent, though you might want to link it yourself and call it to their attention. Otherwise they might never take notice.
2, This sounds an awful lot like the genade launcher Simus uses and that- I believe -Is either in the armory or will be soon. I can't remember if hers has a revolver style magazine, but otherwise it is basically identical. Even with the CLF3 rounds.
You may just want to create different kinds of Ammo and use the Simus Launcher as the platform, since it will save time perfecting the gun. Also since it is, so far, too similar to Simus' weapon to prototype.
And I would work on the design of the rounds before going straight into testing them. Standard high explosives are fine, but you may want to be more exacting in terms of how the other shells are designed: The CLF3 round, for instance: how does it work? Is it just a tin can filled with compressed gas? Does it have explosives inside? Any built in flack or shrapnel?
Post by: tryrar on September 08, 2014, 12:11:17 pm
In any case, I guess I'll just work on my own ammo types then. The ClF3 round should be basically the same as Simus's, so forget testing that. That cluster HE is basically a shell packed with as many submunitions as can fit(and still pack a charge strong enough to burst the shell). The bomblets are impact armed with a 3-second timefuse, and a sphere of tiny ball bearings; it won't do that much overall structural damage, but the many bomblets should put out a great amount of shrapnel to wipe out soft targets.
One other thing I want to test then is the cost effectiveness of My Mjolnir shell versus a more conventional HEAT round. Spawn a battlesuit and fire a Mjolnir shell, then a HEAT shell, and see if the Mjolnir does more damage on a direct hit, then the same test on a glancing hit.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 09, 2014, 04:48:11 pm
Adapt nuclear GC shell warhead with fins and rocket motors in order to make them launch able via basic tube-style launcher mortar
Post by: Nikitian on September 10, 2014, 07:03:06 am
This is a place to both use Tinker, and to talk about ideas and stuff for tinker while not physically in it. You can hang out here and plan stuff, but you won't have the full access to tools unless you're in vr.Is this still true? Does 'planning stuff' constitute tinkering-without-working-out-details (with regular bolded actions and your vague, not in-depth responses) or just non-bolded-action 'talking' about ideas?
Can the simplest and not-technical ER-physics questions be posted here? (Like 'Can a handlaser cut through battlesuit?' 'No.', 'Can a Microwave Field Manipulator freeze things instead of cooking them?''Yes' and such)
Disclaimer:
Quote from: Attributed to Piecewise
God help you if you fucking use tinker while you're on mission. You might notice your rolls going badly a statistically implausible amount of the time.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 10, 2014, 07:26:49 am
Post by: Toaster on September 10, 2014, 07:36:43 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on September 10, 2014, 08:51:29 am
Then again, with a little creativity you could probably fit a stripped down cutting laser in there so its actually got a lot of potential.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 10, 2014, 09:47:42 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on September 10, 2014, 09:58:26 am
I wonder how much juice a battlesuits generator could feed into a cutting laser...
Post by: piecewise on September 10, 2014, 12:28:31 pm
Huh, I was sure my launcher was different enough due to being literally double the size, and being a 6 shot revolver rather than a break-action single shot(IIRC of course, feel free to correct me).The reason for it not being prototyped is it's basically the same; in that it fills the same role. It's bigger and has more shots but it's still does basically the same thing, if you get what I mean. Otherwise people could abuse the system by just making upgrades to existing weapons as a method of getting them for free.
In any case, I guess I'll just work on my own ammo types then. The ClF3 round should be basically the same as Simus's, so forget testing that. That cluster HE is basically a shell packed with as many submunitions as can fit(and still pack a charge strong enough to burst the shell). The bomblets are impact armed with a 3-second timefuse, and a sphere of tiny ball bearings; it won't do that much overall structural damage, but the many bomblets should put out a great amount of shrapnel to wipe out soft targets.
One other thing I want to test then is the cost effectiveness of My Mjolnir shell versus a more conventional HEAT round. Spawn a battlesuit and fire a Mjolnir shell, then a HEAT shell, and see if the Mjolnir does more damage on a direct hit, then the same test on a glancing hit.
SO the HE one is basically a tin can filled with small explosive spheres that have little metal pieces packed into them so that they explode the big shell and also spray little bits of shrapnel everywhere. Effective, no doubt.
Mjolnir was the amp one right? There's a lot of Nordic mythology references bouncing around in my head and I'm having a hard time remembering. Anyways, the Mjolnir is gonna be more effective usually, but also more expensive. SO the cost to value ratio depends more on how accurate you are then anything else. Since missing with one Mjolnir is gonna cost more then missing with one HEAT.
I think this fell by the wayside so...Ok. Thats easy. It's basically gonna look like a modern day RPG.
Adapt nuclear GC shell warhead with fins and rocket motors in order to make them launch able via basic tube-style launcher mortar
Simple stuff and generally just checking on a basic idea can be checked here without being in tinker, sure. However it better be a single question, in plain, simple language.This is a place to both use Tinker, and to talk about ideas and stuff for tinker while not physically in it. You can hang out here and plan stuff, but you won't have the full access to tools unless you're in vr.Is this still true? Does 'planning stuff' constitute tinkering-without-working-out-details (with regular bolded actions and your vague, not in-depth responses) or just non-bolded-action 'talking' about ideas?
Can the simplest and not-technical ER-physics questions be posted here? (Like 'Can a handlaser cut through battlesuit?' 'No.', 'Can a Microwave Field Manipulator freeze things instead of cooking them?''Yes' and such)
Disclaimer:Quote from: Attributed to PiecewiseGod help you if you fucking use tinker while you're on mission. You might notice your rolls going badly a statistically implausible amount of the time.
"I've got an idea for a gun that shoots bees. Does that seem possible?" is fine. A 12 point bulleted list is going to get you 12 bullets in response, if you catch my drift.
Post by: Xantalos on September 10, 2014, 12:30:01 pm
Post by: Toaster on September 10, 2014, 12:38:32 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 10, 2014, 12:45:51 pm
You do realize now I have to tinker up a gun that shoots Xanbees.A certain weapon from Half-Life comes to mind...
Seriously, though. Organic assault rifle. Regenerating ammo. You could pretty much make the Hivehand. Not sure about the homing projectiles, though...
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 10, 2014, 12:49:26 pm
Brilliant! Organic ammo that secretes a self-replicating fluid that dissolves organics, so you get a nice slurry of biomass for easy absorption.
I proposed stuff like this months ago, back when he got his powers. Along with a crapton of other subtle and less subtle things he could try. He never did try them, but hey, a man can try.
Post by: Nikitian on September 10, 2014, 12:59:40 pm
Can the Magnetic Amp (or the Magnetic Field Manipulator) be used to deflect gauss rifle rounds or laser beams?
@RC But then we got a whole planet with fleshpits and possibly even an organic forge to build such things ourselves :P
Honestly, organic production so far appears very promising, and it's one of the reasons Maurice is interested in the hydroponics of the Swords.
Post by: Xantalos on September 10, 2014, 02:24:33 pm
I actually was gonna when I got back from mission 15. Now that I've altered Xan's personality to be more amicable to that as well, there's gonna be more of that.Brilliant! Organic ammo that secretes a self-replicating fluid that dissolves organics, so you get a nice slurry of biomass for easy absorption.
I proposed stuff like this months ago, back when he got his powers. Along with a crapton of other subtle and less subtle things he could try. He never did try them, but hey, a man can try.
I still have all those notes.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 10, 2014, 04:53:25 pm
Christen gun "The Zanzibar Special", name nuke rockets "Avengers"
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on September 10, 2014, 05:53:33 pm
Can i make an arrow secreting quiver by putting some living sand into an incubator powered by a gauss generator that feeds the sand growths to some sharkmist that has been engineered to grow arrows?
Post by: PyroDesu on September 11, 2014, 11:26:29 am
Huh, I was sure my launcher was different enough due to being literally double the size, and being a 6 shot revolver rather than a break-action single shot(IIRC of course, feel free to correct me).
((Yours looks so similar to mine that if you weren't expressing surprise, I could swear you dug up my original plans - right down to the safety/detonation mechanism. It's almost an exact copy, apart from caliber and revolver-action (which isn't very good for something of 90mm caliber. Imagine how bulky it'd be).))
Post by: Hapah on September 11, 2014, 06:33:45 pm
I imagine it'd be something like a longcoat material jumpsuit with thin metal or some kinda space polymer plates over the good bits. I dunno if it's possible to get the material that the longcoats are made out of, though.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 11, 2014, 06:43:24 pm
How hard would it be to make armor like the Stormtrooper armor from Star Wars?
I imagine it'd be something like a longcoat material jumpsuit with thin metal or some kinda space polymer plates over the good bits. I dunno if it's possible to get the material that the longcoats are made out of, though.
Once the artifacts get shipped to Hep, we should be able to get a next generation armor series. I intent to try and get four different kinds at least:
-light armor, like defenders longcoat
-medium armor, like Milno plate (for regualr exoskeletons or Mk.III, provably less inches of heavy armor)
-heavy armor, optimal cost-protection, for battlesuits and the like
-expensive armor with high protection for low weight/thickness, but higher cost than heavy armor
Post by: tryrar on September 12, 2014, 03:45:01 am
Also, create a Bangstick; basically, a shaped charge at the end of a metal pole for blowing holes in things. The charge is ideally replacable.
Post by: NAV on September 12, 2014, 06:38:44 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 12, 2014, 07:04:25 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 12, 2014, 09:41:20 am
Post by: piecewise on September 12, 2014, 12:17:22 pm
Wonderful!Gauss rounds certainly, and lasers...perhaps. Plasma yes, but I'm not sure how magnets work on lasers. I assume it can be used to redirect them? If so, then you could block using a "Wedge" of magnetism to split and defuse the beam.
Can the Magnetic Amp (or the Magnetic Field Manipulator) be used to deflect gauss rifle rounds or laser beams?
@RC But then we got a whole planet with fleshpits and possibly even an organic forge to build such things ourselves :P
Honestly, organic production so far appears very promising, and it's one of the reasons Maurice is interested in the hydroponics of the Swords.
Price check on the weapon, check on cost per shell (~same as GC nuke rounds I think)Price of the ammo is the price of the nuke (whichever power you use) plus 1. Weapon is like a token.
Christen gun "The Zanzibar Special", name nuke rockets "Avengers"
QuestionThe human created living sand doesn't replicate, remember. So we don't end up with a cold universe devoid of light like that pocket/alternate dimension. And you'd have to find a way to make the shark mist listen to you. But hypothetically, if you could overcome/learn to live with those limitations, yes.
Can i make an arrow secreting quiver by putting some living sand into an incubator powered by a gauss generator that feeds the sand growths to some sharkmist that has been engineered to grow arrows?
How hard would it be to make armor like the Stormtrooper armor from Star Wars?Cheap white plastic armor that doesn't seem to hold up to anything more powerful then a summer's sun beam? That would be pretty cheap.
I imagine it'd be something like a longcoat material jumpsuit with thin metal or some kinda space polymer plates over the good bits. I dunno if it's possible to get the material that the longcoats are made out of, though.
Alternatively, if you wanted something like the Merc suits in Crossroads, which this sounds like, it would be fairly easy. Just some resistant fabrics with armor plate over the places that don't bend.
Alright, good to know with the shells. I guess I can adapt them to a Simus special(speaking of which, when are those going to show up regularly in the armory? I'm pretty sure Simus proved their worth...). Anyways, you didn't post anything about the Doorknocker, so reposting that for this turn. Basically, it is a reinforced frame holding several shaped charges in the shape of a door large enough to let in the average guy in an exoskeleton, with spikes to hold it to the door/wall long enough to detonate. Hopefully, the frame would be reusable and allow the charges to be replaced. Run tests on doors and walls of various thicknesses and materials, from wood to reinforced concrete and metal, then give cost and prototyping possibility.As soon as simus starts producing and sending them here.
Also, create a Bangstick; basically, a shaped charge at the end of a metal pole for blowing holes in things. The charge is ideally replacable.
Hmm. Door knocker..we've got something semi-like it. The big problem I can see with it is that it would be very large and cumbersome as just a metal frame. It would be like carrying a bedframe around with you everywhere. Perhaps look into ways to make it smaller, or to be assembled on site. If you could fit it in a bag to be carried, that would be good. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the design persay, other then that you'd need a lot of boom to get through a reenforced metal door, which is why the door opener we have is a cutting laser mounted on a circular track that cuts a hole in the door rather then knocking it down.
Bangstick eh? Which direction is the charge exploding in? And keep in mind, even if the explosion goes forward, there's gonna be a explosion propelled metal rod shooting backwards, potentially into the user.
Post by: tryrar on September 12, 2014, 01:00:53 pm
As for the Doorknocker, yeah, work on options to make it collapsible, with handy dandy carrying case/bag. Limiting it to single use is okay in this instance, though ideally it should still be reusable.
Post by: Nikitian on September 12, 2014, 01:05:58 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 12, 2014, 01:22:12 pm
Can the fleshknitter be used as a makeshift 'longevity vaccine'? Actually, is there one already? (not involving genetic alteration or cybernetic augmentation)((Considering that old age mostly involves organ failure, and that the fleshknitter doesn't do a stellar job on those, I suspect that the answer to the first one is "no".))
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 12, 2014, 05:01:07 pm
Quote
Quote2)If we let the cannons rotate around the star at about the same speed as the jump point, would that mean that we always have them between ships coming for Hep from the jump point? Would this be useful to continually attack them while they make their next move after breaking the jump point blockade?2.That would keep them with a bead on the jump point, yeah.
1) And would this actually be helpful for the defense of the system? My idea is to place them in a stable rotation, but a ways outside the straight line between jump point and Hep, so that they can continually fire at a fleet moving for Hep and thus either whittle them down, fore them to act or distract them to buy time.
Quote
Cap ships from asteroids
2) Interesting quote (though it would be nice to provide sources next time, says my academic inner child) you had there. Hmm. Would boarding the thing (en masse, mind you) and trying to take over from inside work?
If not, Could a heatblade such as the one created by the AoW on the Hep assault be able to cut it in two? If also not, would ramming one of our own small planetary bodies into it work?
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 12, 2014, 06:40:54 pm
What is better for pure mind reading/mind control? The Neural Connector Psychokinetic Amplifier (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Neural_Connector_Psychokinetic_Amplifier) or the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Organochemistry_Overrider_Psychokinetic_Amplifier)?
Post by: piecewise on September 16, 2014, 12:00:27 pm
Heh, I guess for the Bangstick we newton's third law up the bitch and go with the slightly insane option, namely add a second charge facing the opposite direction that explodes at the exact same time to counteract the forces propelling the stick. :P Test effectiveness/user safety and give a price.Hmm. Well you see that depends on what metric of "Effective" you want to use. It is highly effective at killing and breaking things, thats for sure. As per the effectiveness of killing and breaking the correct thing, thats another story.
As for the Doorknocker, yeah, work on options to make it collapsible, with handy dandy carrying case/bag. Limiting it to single use is okay in this instance, though ideally it should still be reusable.
I suggest we produce thousands and then convince the UWM to start using them. That will work wonderfully.
Collapsible works better, though because it is supposed to restrain explosives there is the...relatively small chance that it might break and spray collapsible frame shrapnel back at the team.
Can the fleshknitter be used as a makeshift 'longevity vaccine'? Actually, is there one already? (not involving genetic alteration or cybernetic augmentation)The standard method of extending your life via non-mechanical means is something akin to the system we use to heal people's injuries. It can be used to reduce the body's effective age and heal the damage caused by aging. Fleshknitter could do that sort of thing sort of, but not really. It's not precise enough.
((Guess I'll post here, for Pyro's sake.))(Source is:http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/)QuoteQuote2)If we let the cannons rotate around the star at about the same speed as the jump point, would that mean that we always have them between ships coming for Hep from the jump point? Would this be useful to continually attack them while they make their next move after breaking the jump point blockade?2.That would keep them with a bead on the jump point, yeah.
1) And would this actually be helpful for the defense of the system? My idea is to place them in a stable rotation, but a ways outside the straight line between jump point and Hep, so that they can continually fire at a fleet moving for Hep and thus either whittle them down, fore them to act or distract them to buy time.QuoteCap ships from asteroids
2) Interesting quote (though it would be nice to provide sources next time, says my academic inner child) you had there. Hmm. Would boarding the thing (en masse, mind you) and trying to take over from inside work?
If not, Could a heatblade such as the one created by the AoW on the Hep assault be able to cut it in two? If also not, would ramming one of our own small planetary bodies into it work?
Yeah, it could help. Your idea seems fine, the only problem could be other planets getting in the way, but that would be highly unlikely, considering the distances involved.
If you could get enough ships up to it and inside, then yeah. A heat blade might work but it would need to be BIG. Stupid huge.
Heh, yeah, throwing planets at them might work. It would probably be difficult to do, but fuck if it wouldn't be awesome eh?
Can I ask a small question?The first is better at just mind reading, the second is better at mind control.
What is better for pure mind reading/mind control? The Neural Connector Psychokinetic Amplifier (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Neural_Connector_Psychokinetic_Amplifier) or the Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Organochemistry_Overrider_Psychokinetic_Amplifier)?
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 16, 2014, 03:26:41 pm
Quote
Yeah, it could help. Your idea seems fine, the only problem could be other planets getting in the way, but that would be highly unlikely, considering the distances involved.
Coolio, another resource sink for us to consider.
Quote
If you could get enough ships up to it and inside, then yeah.
Would it need to be ships, or would launching boarding pods through hammer cannons (like during the boarding during Hep defense) work? Or would its automanips/point defenses push away/destroy the projectiles? Or is there another reason that it'd need to be ships (such as getting enough troops inside, since a boarding pod is rather limited)?
Quote
A heat blade might work but it would need to be BIG. Stupid huge.
And do we have the resources to build an automanip or something that can do this? If yes, could we mount this on a ship to be used specifically to defeat cap ships (since regular ships would be too small.fast too hit I presume)?
Quote
Heh, yeah, throwing planets at them might work. It would probably be difficult to do, but fuck if it wouldn't be awesome eh?
I was thinking moons or large asteroids, but yeah, it'd be cool. And hilarious, us and the UWM lobbing around celestial bodies to crash them into each other.
Post by: Nikitian on September 16, 2014, 04:32:57 pm
For example, can an amp (or, I dare say it, a field manipulator) finely tuned to moulding and bio-coding the fleshknitter be created, so as to control and complement its regenerative deficiencies?
I understand that the Organo-tissue Dominator and possibly the Organochemistry Dominator PK Amps can do that, but I'm asking about something less versatile, more focused and, most importantly, cheaper.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 16, 2014, 04:36:07 pm
At some point in past, in a conversation with the Armory Master, I think, it was mentioned that we can possibly make other kinds of amps than those listed.
For example, can an amp (or, I dare say it, a field manipulator) finely tuned to moulding and bio-coding the fleshknitter be created, so as to control and complement its regenerative deficiencies?
I understand that the Organo-tissue Dominator and possibly the Organochemistry Dominator PK Amps can do that, but I'm asking about something less versatile, more focused and, most importantly, cheaper.
((If we can indeed research new amps, then there are a few things I'd like to try. Such as a 'machine emphatics' amp that lets one influence/control machines and computers ("oh look, that UWM deathmachine has a self destruct sequence. Oops, just activated it.").
Post by: tryrar on September 16, 2014, 04:41:36 pm
Also, can I get a percentage on average failure rates for the collapsible version of the Doorknocker? Assuming ideal conditions and repeated re-usage. Basically, I'm looking for the average reuses it can do before catastrophic failure.
Post by: NAV on September 16, 2014, 04:45:51 pm
Also, can I get a percentage on average failure rates for the collapsable version of the Doorknocker? Assuming ideal conditions and repeated re-usage16.66% :P
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 20, 2014, 05:26:11 pm
What do you think is a good price? I think 2 tokens (with 1 cannister of goop or namite upon purchase) is reasonable? And 1token per can of either ammo?
Post by: tryrar on September 20, 2014, 06:52:41 pm
Post by: piecewise on September 29, 2014, 12:21:52 pm
((Thanks for source. It's fun to play around with.))Boarding pods could work, sure.You'd need a lot of them though. You'd just need enough bodies. And we'd need to slow them down heavily just before they hit the protected range or it would trigger the automated defenses.QuoteYeah, it could help. Your idea seems fine, the only problem could be other planets getting in the way, but that would be highly unlikely, considering the distances involved.
Coolio, another resource sink for us to consider.QuoteIf you could get enough ships up to it and inside, then yeah.
Would it need to be ships, or would launching boarding pods through hammer cannons (like during the boarding during Hep defense) work? Or would its automanips/point defenses push away/destroy the projectiles? Or is there another reason that it'd need to be ships (such as getting enough troops inside, since a boarding pod is rather limited)?QuoteA heat blade might work but it would need to be BIG. Stupid huge.
And do we have the resources to build an automanip or something that can do this? If yes, could we mount this on a ship to be used specifically to defeat cap ships (since regular ships would be too small.fast too hit I presume)?QuoteHeh, yeah, throwing planets at them might work. It would probably be difficult to do, but fuck if it wouldn't be awesome eh?
I was thinking moons or large asteroids, but yeah, it'd be cool. And hilarious, us and the UWM lobbing around celestial bodies to crash them into each other.
Right now? No. That would require that the amp-manip factory actually gets made. And a significant amount of a particular raw material be gathered.
At some point in past, in a conversation with the Armory Master, I think, it was mentioned that we can possibly make other kinds of amps than those listed.Maybe. But we lack the facilities on Heph to do anything like that.
For example, can an amp (or, I dare say it, a field manipulator) finely tuned to moulding and bio-coding the fleshknitter be created, so as to control and complement its regenerative deficiencies?
I understand that the Organo-tissue Dominator and possibly the Organochemistry Dominator PK Amps can do that, but I'm asking about something less versatile, more focused and, most importantly, cheaper.
I had an idea to increase effectiveness of the Bangstick: mount the charges perpendicular to the handle and swing it like some demented polearm that shoots explosions on impact. Effective? Maybe. Safe? hahahaha no. Awesome? Come on son, you're swinging around fucking exploding hammers in effect.
Also, can I get a percentage on average failure rates for the collapsible version of the Doorknocker? Assuming ideal conditions and repeated re-usage. Basically, I'm looking for the average reuses it can do before catastrophic failure.
Someone's gotten into my statistics folder again!Also, can I get a percentage on average failure rates for the collapsable version of the Doorknocker? Assuming ideal conditions and repeated re-usage16.66% :P
PW, I think the universal chem thrower is ready for full admittance into the armory by now, barring Pyro having a problem with it.Assuming pyro is ok with it, I'm thinking 3 tokens. And yeah, it's good as far as I'm concerned.
What do you think is a good price? I think 2 tokens (with 1 cannister of goop or namite upon purchase) is reasonable? And 1token per can of either ammo?
Quick trip to pull up the specs on the X3 civ gauss rifle simus made, so I know what it can do.Probably should direct that more towards her on heph then here.
Post by: Nikitian on September 30, 2014, 11:44:28 am
((If we can indeed research new amps, then there are a few things I'd like to try. Such as a 'machine emphatics' amp that lets one influence/control machines and computers ("oh look, that UWM deathmachine has a self destruct sequence. Oops, just activated it.").((I've long had an idea of at least a partially effective solution to this problem.))
Can the magnetic field manipulator/psychokinetic amplifier manipulate electrical currents at fine level, effectively allowing to influence/control electrical machines and computers? Or is there an electrical field manip/amp (available and known, I mean, just never mentioned) which could be used to those ends?
Post by: piecewise on October 01, 2014, 01:05:30 pm
You guys want a manip version of Milno's gauntlet eh?((If we can indeed research new amps, then there are a few things I'd like to try. Such as a 'machine emphatics' amp that lets one influence/control machines and computers ("oh look, that UWM deathmachine has a self destruct sequence. Oops, just activated it.").((I've long had an idea of at least a partially effective solution to this problem.))
Can the magnetic field manipulator/psychokinetic amplifier manipulate electrical currents at fine level, effectively allowing to influence/control electrical machines and computers? Or is there an electrical field manip/amp (available and known, I mean, just never mentioned) which could be used to those ends?
Well, you could theoretically use several different amps or manips to control machines in different ways but it would all be very difficult and not terrible effective. It would be like threading a needle while wearing boxing gloves. Or driving a car from the back seat using a broom handle to turn the wheel. You'd be controlling electricity to force certain interactions and doing that would require knowledge of the internal workings of the machine and...oh it's a hassle.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 01, 2014, 02:08:48 pm
Post by: Nikitian on October 01, 2014, 05:23:09 pm
You could always have the amp convert part of your brain to the machine you are trying to control. [/joking]Actually, that's a very good idea.
-beat- :P
Generally speaking, is it possible to make an amp/manipulator crossbreed, which would operate using a fleshy brain (and convert it as needed) - just not the user's one? It could then be hand-held like the regular field-manips, or hooked to the user's brain using the mind-interface (like the one used in braincases or full-sense VR simulation).
Wetware-powered manip. Except configurable in use, as opposed to standard automanips.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 01, 2014, 06:58:45 pm
Essentially a portable amp specialist?You could always have the amp convert part of your brain to the machine you are trying to control. [/joking]Actually, that's a very good idea.
-beat- :P
Generally speaking, is it possible to make an amp/manipulator crossbreed, which would operate using a fleshy brain (and convert it as needed) - just not the user's one? It could then be hand-held like the regular field-manips, or hooked to the user's brain using the mind-interface (like the one used in braincases or full-sense VR simulation).
Wetware-powered manip. Except configurable in use, as opposed to standard automanips.
Idea: we could just get some volunteers, brainwash them, give them the amp specialist treatment and put anyone that survives through the
Post by: piecewise on October 04, 2014, 11:44:21 am
You could always have the amp convert part of your brain to the machine you are trying to control. [/joking]Hmmm....
So use an interface to control the brain and then the brain controls the amp as you want it to?You could always have the amp convert part of your brain to the machine you are trying to control. [/joking]Actually, that's a very good idea.
-beat- :P
Generally speaking, is it possible to make an amp/manipulator crossbreed, which would operate using a fleshy brain (and convert it as needed) - just not the user's one? It could then be hand-held like the regular field-manips, or hooked to the user's brain using the mind-interface (like the one used in braincases or full-sense VR simulation).
Wetware-powered manip. Except configurable in use, as opposed to standard automanips.
Well you'd need to get a brain for that. Not a cloned one either, amps don't like them. Thats why sods can't use em. And one with a high exo roll. And a decomp, probably.
So let me know when you find a character who is willing to sacrifice themselves to give you a cool weapon. Then again, you could just wait till someone gets hurt and has no say in the matter...
Post by: Xantalos on October 04, 2014, 05:07:32 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 07, 2014, 08:51:47 am
Post by: piecewise on October 07, 2014, 12:59:25 pm
So a clone of me wouldn't work?Nope.
Though if you split yourself into two humans, one male and one female, then reproduced sexually and created a child THAT would work.
Amps are funny like that. They like their brains to be free range and fed on natural experiences.
Could you describe Steve bots in more detail? How do they fly, what weapons do they use, how big are they, what gadgets do they have, how easy to build are they, how resource intensive,...They're similar to the flying robots your fought in the snowglobe. Thin, mix of mechanical and synthflesh, vaguely humanoid in appearance though they have 4 gauss stake throwers for arms, an overhauled cutting laser for a head and branching octopus legs with cutters at the end of every limb. They fly using nuclear ramjets, which are dangerously radioactive to normal living things, though not to synthflesh and sufficiently shielded electronics. Their flight systems are very good at maintaining flight but relatively slow acceleration. They're about 1.5 the height of a man. They have a variety of "Gadgets", mostly sensors to let steve, or ARESTEVE control them more accurately. They're not terribly resource intensive, but they're somewhat difficult to build. They're very strong and powerful for their size and weight, due mostly to very fine and careful manipulation of materials. This results in long production times and the necessity of special machinery.
Post by: Xantalos on October 07, 2014, 01:03:45 pm
Post by: Nikitian on October 07, 2014, 01:17:20 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 07, 2014, 05:28:51 pm
Quote
They're similar to the flying robots your fought in the snowglobe. Thin, mix of mechanical and synthflesh, vaguely humanoid in appearance though they have 4 gauss stake throwers for arms, an overhauled cutting laser for a head and branching octopus legs with cutters at the end of every limb. They fly using nuclear ramjets, which are dangerously radioactive to normal living things, though not to synthflesh and sufficiently shielded electronics. Their flight systems are very good at maintaining flight but relatively slow acceleration. They're about 1.5 the height of a man. They have a variety of "Gadgets", mostly sensors to let steve, or ARESTEVE control them more accurately. They're not terribly resource intensive, but they're somewhat difficult to build. They're very strong and powerful for their size and weight, due mostly to very fine and careful manipulation of materials. This results in long production times and the necessity of special machinery.
1) Are they fully operated remotely, or can they do stuff independent (like the original murderbots)?
2) what exactly are gauss stake throwers? Big ol' slabs of metal to impale fools with from a distance?
3) could you perhaps describe the special machinery? Could Hep start production now if they wanted?
4) how resource intensive are they compared to synthflesh, and how do they compare in terms of power?
5) would it be possible to alter the design to make them a bit less powerful and with shorter production times (aka suitable for mass production)? And make it so they are a bit more versatile (so different types, and bit more humanoid where needed, such as for one designed for support rather than direct combat)? And so they can be controlled by a sod brain in a braincase supported by whatever ai they have. Basically, these could perhaps be used as a base for our 'upgraded robosods'.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 08, 2014, 05:13:28 am
With the pregnancy unnaturally accelarated or no?What I'm worried about here is that the question isn't 'why was that the first thing you thought of?' and rather 'how many corners could I cut in the process?'.
Post by: piecewise on October 11, 2014, 10:46:48 am
With the pregnancy unnaturally accelarated or no?You could try it, but no guarantees it would work.
Wait a sec...aren't you on mission? How are you here?QuoteThey're similar to the flying robots your fought in the snowglobe. Thin, mix of mechanical and synthflesh, vaguely humanoid in appearance though they have 4 gauss stake throwers for arms, an overhauled cutting laser for a head and branching octopus legs with cutters at the end of every limb. They fly using nuclear ramjets, which are dangerously radioactive to normal living things, though not to synthflesh and sufficiently shielded electronics. Their flight systems are very good at maintaining flight but relatively slow acceleration. They're about 1.5 the height of a man. They have a variety of "Gadgets", mostly sensors to let steve, or ARESTEVE control them more accurately. They're not terribly resource intensive, but they're somewhat difficult to build. They're very strong and powerful for their size and weight, due mostly to very fine and careful manipulation of materials. This results in long production times and the necessity of special machinery.
1) Are they fully operated remotely, or can they do stuff independent (like the original murderbots)?
2) what exactly are gauss stake throwers? Big ol' slabs of metal to impale fools with from a distance?
3) could you perhaps describe the special machinery? Could Hep start production now if they wanted?
4) how resource intensive are they compared to synthflesh, and how do they compare in terms of power?
5) would it be possible to alter the design to make them a bit less powerful and with shorter production times (aka suitable for mass production)? And make it so they are a bit more versatile (so different types, and bit more humanoid where needed, such as for one designed for support rather than direct combat)? And so they can be controlled by a sod brain in a braincase supported by whatever ai they have. Basically, these could perhaps be used as a base for our 'upgraded robosods'.
You're trying to trick me aren't you.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 12, 2014, 04:33:02 am
With the pregnancy unnaturally accelarated or no?You could try it, but no guarantees it would work.Wait a sec...aren't you on mission? How are you here?QuoteThey're similar to the flying robots your fought in the snowglobe. Thin, mix of mechanical and synthflesh, vaguely humanoid in appearance though they have 4 gauss stake throwers for arms, an overhauled cutting laser for a head and branching octopus legs with cutters at the end of every limb. They fly using nuclear ramjets, which are dangerously radioactive to normal living things, though not to synthflesh and sufficiently shielded electronics. Their flight systems are very good at maintaining flight but relatively slow acceleration. They're about 1.5 the height of a man. They have a variety of "Gadgets", mostly sensors to let steve, or ARESTEVE control them more accurately. They're not terribly resource intensive, but they're somewhat difficult to build. They're very strong and powerful for their size and weight, due mostly to very fine and careful manipulation of materials. This results in long production times and the necessity of special machinery.
1) Are they fully operated remotely, or can they do stuff independent (like the original murderbots)?
2) what exactly are gauss stake throwers? Big ol' slabs of metal to impale fools with from a distance?
3) could you perhaps describe the special machinery? Could Hep start production now if they wanted?
4) how resource intensive are they compared to synthflesh, and how do they compare in terms of power?
5) would it be possible to alter the design to make them a bit less powerful and with shorter production times (aka suitable for mass production)? And make it so they are a bit more versatile (so different types, and bit more humanoid where needed, such as for one designed for support rather than direct combat)? And so they can be controlled by a sod brain in a braincase supported by whatever ai they have. Basically, these could perhaps be used as a base for our 'upgraded robosods'.
You're trying to trick me aren't you.
I'm not trying to trick you. I'm doing this because it needs doing, and it's something Hep people should be doing (but they seem predisposed with other endeavors). It's not any sort of personal tinkering or designing, only stuff that are tied to the overall war effort or background stuff. If you think that's not ok or if you wanna prevent the precedent, just say so and I'll stop. If not, getting even a short rudimentary idea of the feasibility would be handy.
Post by: piecewise on October 14, 2014, 01:18:32 pm
Hmm. You're on a mission where you're not doing much...Lets put it like this. If you don't do anything on your turn in that mission, ie you just stand around, we'll assume you spend that time space googling stuff.With the pregnancy unnaturally accelarated or no?You could try it, but no guarantees it would work.Wait a sec...aren't you on mission? How are you here?QuoteThey're similar to the flying robots your fought in the snowglobe. Thin, mix of mechanical and synthflesh, vaguely humanoid in appearance though they have 4 gauss stake throwers for arms, an overhauled cutting laser for a head and branching octopus legs with cutters at the end of every limb. They fly using nuclear ramjets, which are dangerously radioactive to normal living things, though not to synthflesh and sufficiently shielded electronics. Their flight systems are very good at maintaining flight but relatively slow acceleration. They're about 1.5 the height of a man. They have a variety of "Gadgets", mostly sensors to let steve, or ARESTEVE control them more accurately. They're not terribly resource intensive, but they're somewhat difficult to build. They're very strong and powerful for their size and weight, due mostly to very fine and careful manipulation of materials. This results in long production times and the necessity of special machinery.
1) Are they fully operated remotely, or can they do stuff independent (like the original murderbots)?
2) what exactly are gauss stake throwers? Big ol' slabs of metal to impale fools with from a distance?
3) could you perhaps describe the special machinery? Could Hep start production now if they wanted?
4) how resource intensive are they compared to synthflesh, and how do they compare in terms of power?
5) would it be possible to alter the design to make them a bit less powerful and with shorter production times (aka suitable for mass production)? And make it so they are a bit more versatile (so different types, and bit more humanoid where needed, such as for one designed for support rather than direct combat)? And so they can be controlled by a sod brain in a braincase supported by whatever ai they have. Basically, these could perhaps be used as a base for our 'upgraded robosods'.
You're trying to trick me aren't you.
I'm not trying to trick you. I'm doing this because it needs doing, and it's something Hep people should be doing (but they seem predisposed with other endeavors). It's not any sort of personal tinkering or designing, only stuff that are tied to the overall war effort or background stuff. If you think that's not ok or if you wanna prevent the precedent, just say so and I'll stop. If not, getting even a short rudimentary idea of the feasibility would be handy.
So you can do an action here but only when you do nothing there.
AND IF OTHER PEOPLE TRY TO DO THAT TOO I'LL HAVE TO SEE OF I CAN ELECTROCUTE THEM JUST LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THEM LOSE CONTROL OF THEIR BOWELS!
Ahem.
So: They can operate independently but are usually being remote controlled. They have modified control systems like those from the snowglobe.
2. Basically. Like gauss rifles or cannons but they fire AP spikes.
3. The special machinery isn't anything magic, it's just specialized micro-construction systems. Small, very fine parts, basically. Heph could definitely make more of the machinery and produce more bots.
4.They use synthflesh along with other parts so as intensive as synthflesh+the work of those other parts. They're pretty hard to make as of right now. Put simply the construction technology as it exists isn't quite good enough to make them up to snuff with their originals, the snowglobe bots. As it is, we're doing the best we can, but it's still a long, difficult process using expensive meta-materials and machinery. They are, individually, much more "Powerful" in the broad sense that word can be used in, compared to synthflesh of equal size.
5.Sorta...the problem would be that if we strip out all that parts that require special production and use special materials, the parts that make them slow to produce, then what remains really isn't that special.
Post by: Nikitian on October 14, 2014, 04:06:43 pm
... I think I have never been so happy towards the prospect of losing bowel control.))
Bring that End roll on, man! With any negative modifiers you can think of! No roll at all if you wish! I am up to the challenge!
Especially even if the worst happens and bowels betray me, no one but my pride will be hurt. The suit shall conceal everything.
It is best if I do something beneficial to the ARM here rather than risk compromising the mission there.
Okay, fleshknitter gives cancer. How much, how soon, how
And - what about the stasis-cancer? Or is it stasis-sterility? Have you made up your mind?
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 14, 2014, 06:01:58 pm
((Meee! Meee! Anything to do in place of wasted turns!
... I think I have never been so happy towards the prospect of losing bowel control.))
Bring that End roll on, man! With any negative modifiers you can think of! No roll at all if you wish! I am up to the challenge!
Especially even if the worst happens and bowels betray me, no one but my pride will be hurt. The suit shall conceal everything.
It is best if I do something beneficial to the ARM here rather than risk compromising the mission there.
Okay, fleshknitter gives cancer. How much, how soon, howlethaldisabling if left untreated (way before the gruesome end)? Assuming either automated regular application via suit-tank small reservoir or one-time manual application in large doses in case of a serious injury treatable by it (muscles, bones, etc.).
And - what about the stasis-cancer? Or is it stasis-sterility? Have you made up your mind?
((... Sigh.
I'm sorry pw, I really am. Should've known better really. Didn't think the floodgates would open up immediately. Might have been smarter to just make searching stuff my action in mission, but didn't want to to prevent having to dig through several threads later on. Woe my hubris, and laziness.
Nik, you realize I added the 'purely war effort background stuff' clause to prevent this, right? That I wouldn't do personal tinker projects to prevent setting precedent for other people (since other people don't really seem to care about the mechanics of the greater background war effort)? But I do realize being stuck on the mission like you are right now has to suck, so... I dunno. Dunno what to do now. Sigh.))
If you'll still allow me, pw, I've got some more questions. If not, for the love of god nip this in the bud and I'll just do my research in the mission thread when Miya's not doing anything.
Post by: Nikitian on October 14, 2014, 11:53:02 pm
Contributing to the war effort from a slightly different angle, because Steve knows there's much enough people working on armaments of destruction, but nearly not enough on basic things to save lives. And I am making effort to think of ways to advance in that direction.
Oh, and I accept all responsibility for what happens because of this. This is clear and unabashed breech of tinker use agreement. Yet as I once again feel ashamed to even try doing something wrong on mission, I prefer to do wrong here, and accept the consequences here. As I have figured just minutes after posting that initial message, I actually don't much care if the action does not get resolved at all. It's the 'doing something distinct' for a change and 'waiting for GM's response' that is pure crack that keeps bringing me back to ER. I just saw the opening, offering nothing but massive electrical trauma, yes, but opening for an action to contribute to the cause, and shamelessly exploited the possibility. ))
Piecewise, I ask that you treat each case justly and only against itself. Do not let RC be punished for my impudence. He deserves to ask questions.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 15, 2014, 03:51:43 am
Quote
Well, actually, I vowed to myself to support your 'war effort clause' and work not for personal amusement here, but on things useful to the ARM overall. With fleshknitter being still mostly unknown factor, both the current mission (partially, but nonetheless) and MCP-II production (a lot more) sort of depend on how much it can actually be relied upon, and I really wanted the stasis side effects be sorted out. Guess it's my fault I did not make it clear from the post.
Contributing to the war effort from a slightly different angle, because Steve knows there's much enough people working on armaments of destruction, but nearly not enough on basic things to save lives. And I am making effort to think of ways to advance in that direction.
((I see what you're trying to do, but even if it's not another deathtube (something to be celebrated, the ratio of stuff that brings death as opposed to healing is disturbingly high), the project is kinda personal tinkering (as in, something you or another player could use in-game someday). But, well, we'll see what pw says.))
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 17, 2014, 07:23:48 am
Post by: piecewise on October 17, 2014, 12:38:36 pm
((Meee! Meee! Anything to do in place of wasted turns!
... I think I have never been so happy towards the prospect of losing bowel control.))
Bring that End roll on, man! With any negative modifiers you can think of! No roll at all if you wish! I am up to the challenge!
Especially even if the worst happens and bowels betray me, no one but my pride will be hurt. The suit shall conceal everything.
It is best if I do something beneficial to the ARM here rather than risk compromising the mission there.
Okay, fleshknitter gives cancer. How much, how soon, howlethaldisabling if left untreated (way before the gruesome end)? Assuming either automated regular application via suit-tank small reservoir or one-time manual application in large doses in case of a serious injury treatable by it (muscles, bones, etc.).
And - what about the stasis-cancer? Or is it stasis-sterility? Have you made up your mind?
Depends how much you use. If you fucking fill a motherfucker's abdominal cavity with it then he's gonna be a tumorous mess pretty quick. If you just use it reasonably they should be fine unless they're like milno, stubbornly holding on to their fleshy bits.
It's probably not that bad. If he gets disabling we'll just take their brain out. Don't worry about it, like I said, in our line of work it doesn't matter much.
Stasis definitely causes reproductive problems over time. Cancer? well it has a chance but it doesn't just give it to you. It's not like "You went into stasis? Cancer." it's like "You went into stasis several times? Maybe get screened".
It's fine. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCdbcPxNfc)((Meee! Meee! Anything to do in place of wasted turns!
... I think I have never been so happy towards the prospect of losing bowel control.))
Bring that End roll on, man! With any negative modifiers you can think of! No roll at all if you wish! I am up to the challenge!
Especially even if the worst happens and bowels betray me, no one but my pride will be hurt. The suit shall conceal everything.
It is best if I do something beneficial to the ARM here rather than risk compromising the mission there.
Okay, fleshknitter gives cancer. How much, how soon, howlethaldisabling if left untreated (way before the gruesome end)? Assuming either automated regular application via suit-tank small reservoir or one-time manual application in large doses in case of a serious injury treatable by it (muscles, bones, etc.).
And - what about the stasis-cancer? Or is it stasis-sterility? Have you made up your mind?
((... Sigh.
I'm sorry pw, I really am. Should've known better really. Didn't think the floodgates would open up immediately. Might have been smarter to just make searching stuff my action in mission, but didn't want to to prevent having to dig through several threads later on. Woe my hubris, and laziness.
Nik, you realize I added the 'purely war effort background stuff' clause to prevent this, right? That I wouldn't do personal tinker projects to prevent setting precedent for other people (since other people don't really seem to care about the mechanics of the greater background war effort)? But I do realize being stuck on the mission like you are right now has to suck, so... I dunno. Dunno what to do now. Sigh.))
If you'll still allow me, pw, I've got some more questions. If not, for the love of god nip this in the bud and I'll just do my research in the mission thread when Miya's not doing anything.
I don't mind non-specific or non-indepth questions. It's just things asking for lots of detail that become a pain. Especially when its a post with 10 sub posts each asking for in depth info.
And when it's only one of 10 similar posts.
Just out of curiosity, what does the battlesuit's cockpit entrance look like? Is it a small thing that you have to crawl through to get to the cockpit or does the front part of the cockpit open completely like an aircraft's canopy? Or can it do both?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 17, 2014, 04:02:06 pm
And what about Renen-like robotbodies? Can those be mass produced?
Post by: piecewise on October 20, 2014, 11:50:16 am
Could you perhaps describe Arbiter of Peace more? And how they are made? Could Hep make them now, for example? If not, what would be needed?Ok that one I'm gonna have to redirect you for. Talk to the guy who made both of them, he's the one you'd have to contact about getting more made, after all.
And what about Renen-like robotbodies? Can those be mass produced?
Though I'm loath to just start handing renen bodies out. Only thing that stops him from being MAAAASSIVELY op is the fact that he's not terribly active. It's the...what was his name...Lucas defense.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 20, 2014, 12:36:14 pm
And yes, you are right, Renen was indeed made massively op for no cost. Did he get straight fives for all his Doc rolls?
((Note, if you think that saying that thing to the advisor counts as a real action turn, ignore this and I'll repost it later.))
Post by: piecewise on October 20, 2014, 12:42:08 pm
Well... It was actually never meant for players, but for npc forces. Also, again I'll have to ask if they can be downgraded a bit to make them easier and faster to build? Or should I go to doc again? If yes, can I message him from the planet?You can talk to him on planet, just don't split your turns, like we talked about before.
And yes, you are right, Renen was indeed made massively op for no cost. Did he get straight fives for all his Doc rolls?
((Note, if you think that saying that thing to the advisor counts as a real action turn, ignore this and I'll repost it later.))
And yeah, might as well just do everything through him rather then abstract it through me and then abstract the abstract into in game results.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 20, 2014, 12:53:11 pm
Send Doc a message asking for the information in the following post:
Could you perhaps describe Arbiter of Peace more? And how they are made? Could Hep make them now, for example? If not, what would be needed?
And what about Renen-like robotbodies? Can those be mass produced?
Post by: piecewise on October 22, 2014, 10:30:49 am
((Ok then, thanks for the quick answer.))Unless you have some specific reason to post it here, post it in the mission thread next time.
Send Doc a message asking for the information in the following post:Could you perhaps describe Arbiter of Peace more? And how they are made? Could Hep make them now, for example? If not, what would be needed?
And what about Renen-like robotbodies? Can those be mass produced?
"Arbiter of peace is high quality robotics, but could be manufactured. Sticking point is artificial brain. Very tricky to make. Need to copy the brain of someone good enough to inhabit body. Non-organic, not grown. Manufactured. Needs molecular level tools. But many times better then organic. Will always out perform."
"Renen body is step two prototype. Dangerous. Renen safe, low use. Higher use, destroys vestigial brain tissue over time. Organic controller inevitable to go berserk. Unstable.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 22, 2014, 11:05:08 am
Quote
Unless you have some specific reason to post it here, post it in the mission thread next time.((I posted it here so that I would find it again easily in the future, when the knowledge gathered here would be needed. Mostly because the search function on this forum sucks. Is that a good enough reason for you?))
Post by: piecewise on October 24, 2014, 12:41:54 pm
Yeah, thats fine. It's not like it bothers me or anything; I just figured if it was gonna count as your action on mission it might as well be in the mission thread unless you had some reason not to put it there. And you do, so that's fine.QuoteUnless you have some specific reason to post it here, post it in the mission thread next time.((I posted it here so that I would find it again easily in the future, when the knowledge gathered here would be needed. Mostly because the search function on this forum sucks. Is that a good enough reason for you?))
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 24, 2014, 02:35:35 pm
Quote
Hmm. So somebody using a body like that intensively will inevitably face brain atrophy? Could that process be slowed or reversed? By, say, using an automanip that reverts the damage?
And how does Renen differ from the original Arbiters? A better design, or lesser but more resource efficient?
Post by: tryrar on October 25, 2014, 11:33:57 am
1)Combine a one-shot battery with the most powerful laser emitter I can get my hands on through our fronts. Add specially designed lenses to refract the beam(I wouldn't call it a focusing chamber, since that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do :P. Call it a refracting chamber). The chamber spins as the laser passes through, refracting the light at an upwards angle.
2)Pack it into a case that's somewhat egg-shaped and weighted on the bottom. The idea is that no matter what position it lands when I throw it, it would right itself. I'm also aiming to keep this somewhat reasonably throwable, or even better throwable AND being able to be shot from a launcher.
((Thanx paris for the tip!))
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 25, 2014, 01:13:45 pm
Post by: tryrar on October 25, 2014, 01:18:19 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on October 25, 2014, 01:27:07 pm
Alright, here's the specifics for that Laser Discoball Grenade I'm dubbing "Disco Inferno" :P.
1)Combine a one-shot battery with the most powerful laser emitter I can get my hands on through our fronts. Add specially designed lenses to refract the beam(I wouldn't call it a focusing chamber, since that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do :P. Call it a refracting chamber). The chamber spins as the laser passes through, refracting the light at an upwards angle.
2)Pack it into a case that's somewhat egg-shaped and weighted on the bottom. The idea is that no matter what position it lands when I throw it, it would right itself. I'm also aiming to keep this somewhat reasonably throwable, or even better throwable AND being able to be shot from a launcher.
((Thanx paris for the tip!))
((Last time someone (Anton) tried to make a throwable laser grenade, it was rather stupendously weak. Lasers need time to inflict their damage, compact lasers even more so. Even if you fit a few full-size laser rifle emitters into a disc the size of a manhole cover, any kind of rapid movement or rotation from being thrown or launched is going to murder its ability to murder things. Making it a single bigger laser and a rotating prism array would work better, but you'd have to put it down, and it'd have to rotate fairly slowly to be a danger to people. There are some things lasers suck at, and being a grenade is one of them.))
Post by: piecewise on October 27, 2014, 11:54:25 am
Message to Doc:Slowed, but only depending on actions of user.QuoteHmm. So somebody using a body like that intensively will inevitably face brain atrophy? Could that process be slowed or reversed? By, say, using an automanip that reverts the damage?
And how does Renen differ from the original Arbiters? A better design, or lesser but more resource efficient?
Renen different only in that his abilities not always active. Limits damage to brain, but requires extensive gene therapy and isn't always reliable, or survivable. Body also limited in capacities.
Alright, here's the specifics for that Laser Discoball Grenade I'm dubbing "Disco Inferno" :P.So a laser Weeble?
1)Combine a one-shot battery with the most powerful laser emitter I can get my hands on through our fronts. Add specially designed lenses to refract the beam(I wouldn't call it a focusing chamber, since that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do :P. Call it a refracting chamber). The chamber spins as the laser passes through, refracting the light at an upwards angle.
2)Pack it into a case that's somewhat egg-shaped and weighted on the bottom. The idea is that no matter what position it lands when I throw it, it would right itself. I'm also aiming to keep this somewhat reasonably throwable, or even better throwable AND being able to be shot from a launcher.
((Thanx paris for the tip!))
You know, you can get the discoball effect by just fracturing or warping a focusing chamber right? You don't need anything special, just a focusing chamber and a hammer.
Unfortunately this is pretty much true. The best kind of "Laser grenade" would probably be a weeble with a built in laser that slowly swept around on a track, but thats not terribly fast or easy to make.Alright, here's the specifics for that Laser Discoball Grenade I'm dubbing "Disco Inferno" :P.
1)Combine a one-shot battery with the most powerful laser emitter I can get my hands on through our fronts. Add specially designed lenses to refract the beam(I wouldn't call it a focusing chamber, since that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do :P. Call it a refracting chamber). The chamber spins as the laser passes through, refracting the light at an upwards angle.
2)Pack it into a case that's somewhat egg-shaped and weighted on the bottom. The idea is that no matter what position it lands when I throw it, it would right itself. I'm also aiming to keep this somewhat reasonably throwable, or even better throwable AND being able to be shot from a launcher.
((Thanx paris for the tip!))
((Last time someone (Anton) tried to make a throwable laser grenade, it was rather stupendously weak. Lasers need time to inflict their damage, compact lasers even more so. Even if you fit a few full-size laser rifle emitters into a disc the size of a manhole cover, any kind of rapid movement or rotation from being thrown or launched is going to murder its ability to murder things. Making it a single bigger laser and a rotating prism array would work better, but you'd have to put it down, and it'd have to rotate fairly slowly to be a danger to people. There are some things lasers suck at, and being a grenade is one of them.))
Again, what ever happened to a jar full of nails and c4?
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 27, 2014, 12:56:36 pm
Quote
What, exactly, is the 'purpose' of the Renen-body prototype? If one can use an artificial brain to work around the problem of an organic brain going berserk, why test a system that's not always on?
Oh, and do we have the needed data to produce these high quality artificial brains? If not, any idea where we could get that?
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 27, 2014, 05:48:16 pm
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
Post by: tryrar on October 27, 2014, 06:43:48 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 27, 2014, 06:55:01 pm
Just for fun:This but only the blades are mithril and then only the cutting edge, price difference?
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 27, 2014, 07:26:57 pm
((I think that will still be at least as expensive as that ice-pick-like thing that one guy made and more likely to fail. The connection between Mythril and whatever other material you are using is likely to break apart due to the stress involved with cutting something like battlesuit armour. It's better if the entire chain is made of Mythril.Just for fun:This but only the blades are mithril and then only the cutting edge, price difference?
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
Or you could just use a normal, less expensive material.
Or if you want something cheap, capable of cutting almost anything and don't care about the chance of it breaking down, you could use the spinner sword or monoatomic drill I developed.
But anyway, you're better off using a less ridiculous, less expensive and more efficient weapon like a kinetic amp.
Or just buying specialized ammo for the gauss rifle. The most efficient choice by far. Which I am surprised that almost nobody ever takes for some reason.))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 27, 2014, 07:39:38 pm
Post by: piecewise on October 29, 2014, 10:00:09 am
send message to Doc:"Artificial brains are hard to come by. A system not dependent on one would be useful. Need more research."QuoteWhat, exactly, is the 'purpose' of the Renen-body prototype? If one can use an artificial brain to work around the problem of an organic brain going berserk, why test a system that's not always on?
Oh, and do we have the needed data to produce these high quality artificial brains? If not, any idea where we could get that?
"You have bio-forge yes? First, it needs to copy the brain you're basing the artificial system on. Then, molecular level construction system needs to replicate in non-organic medium, replacing synapses with electronic equivalents. Computer simulation of brain possible but potential dangers. Aberrant behaviors. Artificial brain fine tuning takes time as well; altering structure to maximize usability."
Just for fun:"Battlesuit-sized mythril-"
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
Yes.
Just for fun:This but only the blades are mithril and then only the cutting edge, price difference?
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
You wanna run this tinkering stuff Paris? You're pretty good at it.((I think that will still be at least as expensive as that ice-pick-like thing that one guy made and more likely to fail. The connection between Mythril and whatever other material you are using is likely to break apart due to the stress involved with cutting something like battlesuit armour. It's better if the entire chain is made of Mythril.Just for fun:This but only the blades are mithril and then only the cutting edge, price difference?
Battlesuit-sized Mythril chainsword that is efficient and won't break apart after a hit: more than 30 tokens?
Or you could just use a normal, less expensive material.
Or if you want something cheap, capable of cutting almost anything and don't care about the chance of it breaking down, you could use the spinner sword or monoatomic drill I developed.
But anyway, you're better off using a less ridiculous, less expensive and more efficient weapon like a kinetic amp.
Or just buying specialized ammo for the gauss rifle. The most efficient choice by far. Which I am surprised that almost nobody ever takes for some reason.))
What he said.
Post by: Nikitian on October 30, 2014, 11:14:41 pm
How is treating sods in the field different from vanilla humans? What traditional difficulties and problems have been solved in their design (no pain, what else - boosted immune system? faster coagulating blood? etc.)?
What (if any) new medical challenges does treating sods pose? Are they even human enough to be treatable with the same medications? Would the fleshknitter work on them?
Post by: piecewise on October 31, 2014, 01:15:55 pm
Okay, tinker time. For the sake of the ARM good, nothing less!For the most part they're the same. Tougher,generally harder to kill but they're not SPASSMARINES they're not filled with redundant organs or special systems to keep'em alive. We just make more. They're storm troopers.
How is treating sods in the field different from vanilla humans? What traditional difficulties and problems have been solved in their design (no pain, what else - boosted immune system? faster coagulating blood? etc.)?
What (if any) new medical challenges does treating sods pose? Are they even human enough to be treatable with the same medications? Would the fleshknitter work on them?
You treat em like anyone else: 1 part good medicine, 9 parts malpractice.
Post by: Tavik Toth on October 31, 2014, 03:54:23 pm
Post by: Hapah on November 02, 2014, 01:35:47 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on November 02, 2014, 03:44:10 pm
Basic concept check: a Gauss Rifle that shoots smaller slugs at a faster rate-of-fire than a normal Gauss Rifle. Are there any major technical hurdles?
((Capacitors. From how I recall ER-tek Gauss Rifles (and real life ones, too) work, you have a small generator feeding a capacitor bank constantly, which discharges all at once when you fire, then starts recharging (usually fast enough to fire again in just a few moments). For example, the Sibilus, which is essentially a Gauss Rifle firing smaller rocket-propelled slugs with the capacity for burst-fire, has, I believe, three capacitor arrays.))
Post by: syvarris on November 02, 2014, 05:13:06 pm
Hapah, I've had two ideas for a smaller caliber gauss automatic, ever since the Testament was nerfed. First, an FN P90 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90) shaped SMG that fires a 9x39mm (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9739mm) projectile at subsonic velocities (which effectively makes it suppressed). A 9x39mm projectile has similar dimensions to a full 5.7x28mm cartridge, is designed for subsonic velocites, and maintains excellent accuracy and armor piercing capability at those velocities. Of course, it'd effectively be a hollowpoint, considering light body armor in ER stops 20mm rounds, and it would do less damage since real 9x39 is primarily lead, and this would be a lighter material since it needs to be magnetic. Also, you'd have to fit gauss coils inside the P90's frame, which might not be possible.
The second, more realistic idea, is basically a gauss LSW. Make it 5.56, and assuming ER 20mm has similar dimensions to real life 20mm, you could get 250 round magazines for the same material cost as the gauss rifle mags. It has the same problems as the above idea though, and doesn't even have the advantage of being silenced. And it would probably cost three tokens, one less than the Testament, which has absurd AP ability, and only somewhat worse ammo economy.
That was probably more information than anyone wanted, but there you go. Anyways, I'd suggest you not even look into low caliber gauss weapons, except maybe for use as SMGs. Lasers are basically entirely superior.))
Post by: Hapah on November 02, 2014, 05:48:11 pm
Sure, I imagine something along those lines will be the answer, but just want to check the foundation before I start building the house, as it were. If it ends up being more complicated than I thought it'd be I'll just leave the idea alone.Basic concept check: a Gauss Rifle that shoots smaller slugs at a faster rate-of-fire than a normal Gauss Rifle. Are there any major technical hurdles?((Capacitors. From how I recall ER-tek Gauss Rifles (and real life ones, too) work, you have a small generator feeding a capacitor bank constantly, which discharges all at once when you fire, then starts recharging (usually fast enough to fire again in just a few moments). For example, the Sibilus, which is essentially a Gauss Rifle firing smaller rocket-propelled slugs with the capacity for burst-fire, has, I believe, three capacitor arrays.))
That was probably more information than anyone wanted, but there you go. Anyways, I'd suggest you not even look into low caliber gauss weapons, except maybe for use as SMGs. Lasers are basically entirely superior.))Piss on lasers, I need dakka.
Post by: PyroDesu on November 02, 2014, 07:24:41 pm
((As I recall, the Sibilus has so many capacitors because it fires the rockets at a similar force to gauss rifles, despite their smaller size. There's no problem with smaller rounds, although there's probably some small issues with inefficiency- larger rounds are cheaper by weight, and making more complex mechanisms for a higher fire rate would cost more too.))
((While that's true for the Overcharge (2 capacitor banks) and Double Overcharge (all 3 capacitor banks), if it were true for normal shots, it would be incapable of burst-fire.
Take it from the guy who designed it, yeah?))
Post by: syvarris on November 02, 2014, 08:16:40 pm
Huh. If triple standard power cracks battlesuit plate in two shots, I wonder what triple overcharge does? It probably tears the gun apart, but still.))
Post by: Nikitian on November 03, 2014, 04:55:32 am
So, for real dakka, your best bet would either be a good ol' gunpowder-based machine gun, a rocket rifle (remember, it is mostly used on full auto, unlike its child Sibilus) or a rotary gauss machinegun (yep, standard gauss caliber; Feyri got one for last Xmas and Lukas has it or something very similar as part of his armaments). ))
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on November 03, 2014, 06:44:32 am
You know, change it from "what size chunks do you want to blow your teammates into?" to "which quarter of their body do you wanna leave partially intact?"
Id try, but i have not had the opportunity or resources to do so yet.
Post by: Parisbre56 on November 03, 2014, 07:02:34 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on November 03, 2014, 07:10:53 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on November 03, 2014, 08:14:54 am
Has anyone but me considered trying to scale down Lukas' particle accumulator sniper rifle?
You know, change it from "what size chunks do you want to blow your teammates into?" to "which quarter of their body do you wanna leave partially intact?"
Id try, but i have not had the opportunity or resources to do so yet.
Yeah, a lack of time with those interested is probably a big factor here. And I've already got such a big backlog of projects :/
Post by: Parisbre56 on November 03, 2014, 09:19:24 am
Or i could make a variable yield PAC and never pay for ammo again ever.If that is what you want. Just remember that running out of ammo almost never happens. And that the Particle Accelerator Cannon (PAC) is different from the Particle Condenser Rifle (PCR). And that they take some time to recharge, so you'd be using them pike the HEP.
Post by: piecewise on November 03, 2014, 12:37:44 pm
forget what I was doing and exit VR.You forget what you were doing and wander off.
Basic concept check: a Gauss Rifle that shoots smaller slugs at a faster rate-of-fire than a normal Gauss Rifle. Are there any major technical hurdles?The other guys below you in the tread basically covered this.
I like this. We've been going long enough that we have some seasoned tinkerers who literally answer questions for me. Keep up the good work!
I might have to create some sort of special position for you guys. Official Tech consultants or something. Guys whose answers I trust enough that they can, at least provisionally, be taken as truth.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 03, 2014, 06:07:40 pm
Maybe you'd want to check if you could make a mini LESHO first. Might be cheaper AND it allows you to use alternate ammo, so depending on what you want to kill, you can load the appropriate ammo. Wanna kill a soldier? Load normal rounds. Wanna take out a platoon? Load nuclear rounds. Wanna take out an avatar or another heavily armoured target without irradiating the entire area? Load grav-shells. Wanna destroy a wall? Load high explosive shells.My tinker was basically the poor man's LESHO.
Post by: Parisbre56 on November 03, 2014, 07:49:58 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on November 05, 2014, 03:47:09 pm
Quote
Do you know where the data for making the brains for the original Arbiters is? Could we access it, steal it perhaps?
Oh, and I think I might know who's brain they used previously, and I'm pretty sure you do as well. You reckon this person could be used again as a template, should the previous not be possible?
((Postponed due to action on mission.))
Post by: Hapah on November 11, 2014, 02:16:24 am
Post by: syvarris on November 11, 2014, 12:41:00 pm
5.How many traditional fragmentation grenades with an effective kill radius of fifteen meters could you get for one token, assuming we made them standard? For comparison, one token currently gets five smoke bombs, or six paralysis gas canisters.Depends on their design, but you could probably get 3 or so.
((I was tempted to just not post this, because PW might give a better deal... But that would be wrong.))
Post by: Hapah on November 11, 2014, 12:46:16 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 08, 2014, 06:33:05 pm
The way I'm thinking about it is this:
People can shoot weapons while flying.
That means that there is probably some sort of simplified flight mode that allows people to fly without requiring them to fully control the suit, its orientation, how much fuel it is using, etc.
They probably use part of their body combined with existing sensor data to specify a direction for the suit to move and a speed and the flight computer takes care of the rest, allowing the pilot to move their body more freely, without worrying that a small movement might screw their flight path.
Thus, if you lock the suit in the correct position or if you input the right command in its computer, it should keep flying (roughly) in the same direction.
I'm imagining something like the following scenario:
There's something I need to shoot/C4/grab inside a spaceship hovering above a spot.
I blow a hole to the side of the spaceship, get out of Gilgamesh and jump inside.
I shoot things that need shooting, C4 things that need C4ing and grab things that need grabbing.
I get out through the hole on the other side, jump, grab Gilgamesh and get back inside him.
Yes, I know that doing the above is probably not a very good idea and that there are better ways of achieving the same result, but hey, it will look good. And there might be a very rare situation where having the ability to do the above will turn out to be useful.
For example, if something is about to explode and I can't get the rest of the team away from it in time and nobody has an amp or something that can deal with it, I could pull a Batman and have the battlesuit move it away on its own instead of going for the heroic sacrifice. Bonus points if I can get people to believe I actually sacrificed myself for a second, before Steve snarkily tells them otherwise.
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 09, 2014, 03:06:59 pm
Post by: piecewise on December 11, 2014, 02:09:46 pm
Is it possible to get out of the battlesuit but have it keep flying in a certain direction? Something like an autopilot?The suit can perform actions autonomously but it isn't the same as an auto pilot. Basically, you can create a list of actions for the suit to take "ie burn for 30 seconds, close right hand, walk forward" and it will perform them. However, it's not intelligent; it has some stabilization systems, to help with walking and recoil, but if you program it to walk forward and it walks into a wall, it will just keep walking into that wall until its taken the number of steps it needs to.
The way I'm thinking about it is this:
People can shoot weapons while flying.
That means that there is probably some sort of simplified flight mode that allows people to fly without requiring them to fully control the suit, its orientation, how much fuel it is using, etc.
They probably use part of their body combined with existing sensor data to specify a direction for the suit to move and a speed and the flight computer takes care of the rest, allowing the pilot to move their body more freely, without worrying that a small movement might screw their flight path.
Thus, if you lock the suit in the correct position or if you input the right command in its computer, it should keep flying (roughly) in the same direction.
I'm imagining something like the following scenario:
There's something I need to shoot/C4/grab inside a spaceship hovering above a spot.
I blow a hole to the side of the spaceship, get out of Gilgamesh and jump inside.
I shoot things that need shooting, C4 things that need C4ing and grab things that need grabbing.
I get out through the hole on the other side, jump, grab Gilgamesh and get back inside him.
Yes, I know that doing the above is probably not a very good idea and that there are better ways of achieving the same result, but hey, it will look good. And there might be a very rare situation where having the ability to do the above will turn out to be useful.
For example, if something is about to explode and I can't get the rest of the team away from it in time and nobody has an amp or something that can deal with it, I could pull a Batman and have the battlesuit move it away on its own instead of going for the heroic sacrifice. Bonus points if I can get people to believe I actually sacrificed myself for a second, before Steve snarkily tells them otherwise.
Post by: Toaster on December 11, 2014, 02:45:06 pm
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on December 12, 2014, 07:33:55 am
Or the wall gives up.I can just see the man shaped holes dotting every defensive wall around the galaxy.
Post by: Hapah on December 16, 2014, 04:39:15 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 16, 2014, 04:46:55 pm
Quick Price Check: How much Pistol can I get for one token? Not energy laser pewpew pistols, something kinetic.
At least 7.4 decipistol, I think.
Also, kinetic, as in gauss or the real life ones with gunpowder (or modern equivalent)?
Post by: Hapah on December 16, 2014, 04:53:22 pm
Also, kinetic, as in gauss or the real life ones with gunpowder (or modern equivalent)?Whatever works, really.
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 16, 2014, 05:04:30 pm
Post by: Hapah on December 16, 2014, 05:12:14 pm
You could get a civilian gauss pistol. Or rifle. You could even ask for a silenced civilian gauss pistol.Oh yeah, I'm sure I can get something. Just wondering what 1 token will get me: is it enough for the super-fancy handguns, or only cheap models, or something in the middle? In the end, I'm not certain it would make that big of a difference either way, but wouldn't mind knowing if there's meaningful differences.
I wonder if you'd need to silence a gauss pistol?
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 16, 2014, 06:21:16 pm
Although the sonic boom really would not be that much trouble, since it would sound more like a very loud whistling.
Maybe the sound is not from the bullets but from the components of the gauss rifle deforming due to the high energy? Something like the noise some capacitors or transformers make? Or bending of metal due to temperature? I have no idea.
The point is, silenced gauss pistols exist in this universe, therefore they must have a reason to exist.
Post by: piecewise on December 18, 2014, 04:35:43 pm
You could get basically any kind of non-gauss kinetic pistol for one token. Silenced, gold plated, whatever you want.You could get a civilian gauss pistol. Or rifle. You could even ask for a silenced civilian gauss pistol.Oh yeah, I'm sure I can get something. Just wondering what 1 token will get me: is it enough for the super-fancy handguns, or only cheap models, or something in the middle? In the end, I'm not certain it would make that big of a difference either way, but wouldn't mind knowing if there's meaningful differences.
I wonder if you'd need to silence a gauss pistol?
Joker Team had silenced gauss handguns, although I don't know how that works. Low velocity high mass bullet shaped for maximum penetration so that there is no sonic boom?Yeah, mostly just insulated to prevent sounds from the charging and discharge of the parts. It's also less powerful so it doesn't blow holes straight through the target and the wall behind it.
Although the sonic boom really would not be that much trouble, since it would sound more like a very loud whistling.
Maybe the sound is not from the bullets but from the components of the gauss rifle deforming due to the high energy? Something like the noise some capacitors or transformers make? Or bending of metal due to temperature? I have no idea.
The point is, silenced gauss pistols exist in this universe, therefore they must have a reason to exist.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 05, 2015, 12:47:07 pm
Quote
Create sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate and have a limited lifespan before 'burning out'. Have them activate when they don't receive a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!
Just curious, but would something like this be possible? And more in general, what about programming or designing bots with certain properties to do stuff we need it to?
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 05, 2015, 01:43:16 pm
On the other hand blacksand is made out of nanobots that can use almost any sort of energy to power themselves.))
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2015, 01:12:40 pm
Hmmm. I'm rather nervous about allowing people to mess with them because I feel it might end inQuoteCreate sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate and have a limited lifespan before 'burning out'. Have them activate when they don't receive a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!
Just curious, but would something like this be possible? And more in general, what about programming or designing bots with certain properties to do stuff we need it to?
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/978/images_%282%29.jpg)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 07, 2015, 03:19:33 am
Hmmm. I'm rather nervous about allowing people to mess with them because I feel it might end inQuoteCreate sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate and have a limited lifespan before 'burning out'. Have them activate when they don't receive a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!
Just curious, but would something like this be possible? And more in general, what about programming or designing bots with certain properties to do stuff we need it to?
And even if we won't be allowed to use them, how versatile would they be, theoretically? What kinda stuff can they, or can they not, do?
Post by: piecewise on January 07, 2015, 02:19:02 pm
Theoretically? Very versitile. Any kind of nano machines or similar tech would be very powerful and useful if used right. Even if restrained by certain conditions, the ability manipulate and build like they would permit a lot of stuff not otherwise available to you. Especially if you can get them to work internally like Milno did.Hmmm. I'm rather nervous about allowing people to mess with them because I feel it might end inQuoteCreate sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate and have a limited lifespan before 'burning out'. Have them activate when they don't receive a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!
Just curious, but would something like this be possible? And more in general, what about programming or designing bots with certain properties to do stuff we need it to?
And even if we won't be allowed to use them, how versatile would they be, theoretically? What kinda stuff can they, or can they not, do?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 12, 2015, 07:59:02 am
Quote
One thing you could try for active defense is making an automanip that, in a radius of x meter at a distance of y, changes the vector of all moving particles with a few degrees. That would effectively make them miss their target, and you could set the automanip on a very precise gimbal inside the ship to target stuff.
Say, pw, would this principle work, you think? As in, do we have sensors and computers precise enough to pull of such active automanip defense? Idea would be to 'target' automanips so they don't have to cover a large amount of space.
Post by: piecewise on January 15, 2015, 01:10:15 pm
In other words, have an automanip that projects an effect in, say, a cone out in front of it. And stick that automanip on a gimble and use the gimble to swing the automanip around, pointing the effect where you want? That seems possible. Though It does complicate the mechanism a bit and give more points for it to fail. It would be very bad if one of the actuators failed during an assault, for instance.QuoteOne thing you could try for active defense is making an automanip that, in a radius of x meter at a distance of y, changes the vector of all moving particles with a few degrees. That would effectively make them miss their target, and you could set the automanip on a very precise gimbal inside the ship to target stuff.
Say, pw, would this principle work, you think? As in, do we have sensors and computers precise enough to pull of such active automanip defense? Idea would be to 'target' automanips so they don't have to cover a large amount of space.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 15, 2015, 01:42:05 pm
In other words, have an automanip that projects an effect in, say, a cone out in front of it. And stick that automanip on a gimble and use the gimble to swing the automanip around, pointing the effect where you want? That seems possible. Though It does complicate the mechanism a bit and give more points for it to fail. It would be very bad if one of the actuators failed during an assault, for instance.QuoteOne thing you could try for active defense is making an automanip that, in a radius of x meter at a distance of y, changes the vector of all moving particles with a few degrees. That would effectively make them miss their target, and you could set the automanip on a very precise gimbal inside the ship to target stuff.
Say, pw, would this principle work, you think? As in, do we have sensors and computers precise enough to pull of such active automanip defense? Idea would be to 'target' automanips so they don't have to cover a large amount of space.
hmm, I see. The reason for aiming the automanip would be so that the manip doesn't need to cover quite such a vast amount of space, thereby making it cheaper/smaller. But that doesn indeed introduce a point of failure in the system.
What do you think about it? Is the decrease in automanip 'power'/potential great enough to warrant the risk?
Post by: piecewise on January 16, 2015, 12:27:23 pm
That depends on the application, honestly. Somethings could theoretically be helped by that reduction, but then you have things like the defensive systems which simply don't have time to realign themselves in reaction to being hit, since those hits are either going at the speed of light or very close to it.In other words, have an automanip that projects an effect in, say, a cone out in front of it. And stick that automanip on a gimble and use the gimble to swing the automanip around, pointing the effect where you want? That seems possible. Though It does complicate the mechanism a bit and give more points for it to fail. It would be very bad if one of the actuators failed during an assault, for instance.QuoteOne thing you could try for active defense is making an automanip that, in a radius of x meter at a distance of y, changes the vector of all moving particles with a few degrees. That would effectively make them miss their target, and you could set the automanip on a very precise gimbal inside the ship to target stuff.
Say, pw, would this principle work, you think? As in, do we have sensors and computers precise enough to pull of such active automanip defense? Idea would be to 'target' automanips so they don't have to cover a large amount of space.
hmm, I see. The reason for aiming the automanip would be so that the manip doesn't need to cover quite such a vast amount of space, thereby making it cheaper/smaller. But that doesn indeed introduce a point of failure in the system.
What do you think about it? Is the decrease in automanip 'power'/potential great enough to warrant the risk?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 17, 2015, 06:59:35 am
Quote
That depends on the application, honestly. Somethings could theoretically be helped by that reduction, but then you have things like the defensive systems which simply don't have time to realign themselves in reaction to being hit, since those hits are either going at the speed of light or very close to it.
I'm not sure I understand you fully here. Realign in reaction to being hit? As in, can't target them before they hit the ship, or re-target after the ship being hit?
As far as I understand, if you know where the enemy is, then you can predict the path a solid round would take to reach your ship, no? Meaning that you just point the automanip in the direction of the enemy fleet (and set the cone of your defensive field wide enough), so that any round fired by them crosses its cone of deflection, thereby protecting the ship. And if you wanna shoot them yourself, you point the manip away from the front for a sec, fire, then re-aim the defense at them. How fast they go doesn't matter, since an automanip is 'always on' (eg those automanip shields Bishop has don't need to be turned on at the right moment to deflect an incoming round) so you don't care how fast the round is going, as long as you know where it's coming from. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
Post by: piecewise on January 17, 2015, 12:46:38 pm
As in a defensive shield made using these things isn't gonna function because that laser is gonna hit and do damage before the manip can swivel around to aim at it.QuoteThat depends on the application, honestly. Somethings could theoretically be helped by that reduction, but then you have things like the defensive systems which simply don't have time to realign themselves in reaction to being hit, since those hits are either going at the speed of light or very close to it.
I'm not sure I understand you fully here. Realign in reaction to being hit? As in, can't target them before they hit the ship, or re-target after the ship being hit?
As far as I understand, if you know where the enemy is, then you can predict the path a solid round would take to reach your ship, no? Meaning that you just point the automanip in the direction of the enemy fleet (and set the cone of your defensive field wide enough), so that any round fired by them crosses its cone of deflection, thereby protecting the ship. And if you wanna shoot them yourself, you point the manip away from the front for a sec, fire, then re-aim the defense at them. How fast they go doesn't matter, since an automanip is 'always on' (eg those automanip shields Bishop has don't need to be turned on at the right moment to deflect an incoming round) so you don't care how fast the round is going, as long as you know where it's coming from. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
I am, of course, assuming you're not just fighting a single ship. If you're fighting a single ship or even a handful coming at you from a similar position, thats fine. But what about if they aren't all coming from the same direction? Or firing simultaneously? Best outcome there is splitting the systems, pointing one over there, the other over there, the third over there, etc. But that splits the effectiveness.
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on January 17, 2015, 01:17:47 pm
((You're getting at the fact that we need specialized ships to handle deflection. :PAs in a defensive shield made using these things isn't gonna function because that laser is gonna hit and do damage before the manip can swivel around to aim at it.QuoteThat depends on the application, honestly. Somethings could theoretically be helped by that reduction, but then you have things like the defensive systems which simply don't have time to realign themselves in reaction to being hit, since those hits are either going at the speed of light or very close to it.
I'm not sure I understand you fully here. Realign in reaction to being hit? As in, can't target them before they hit the ship, or re-target after the ship being hit?
As far as I understand, if you know where the enemy is, then you can predict the path a solid round would take to reach your ship, no? Meaning that you just point the automanip in the direction of the enemy fleet (and set the cone of your defensive field wide enough), so that any round fired by them crosses its cone of deflection, thereby protecting the ship. And if you wanna shoot them yourself, you point the manip away from the front for a sec, fire, then re-aim the defense at them. How fast they go doesn't matter, since an automanip is 'always on' (eg those automanip shields Bishop has don't need to be turned on at the right moment to deflect an incoming round) so you don't care how fast the round is going, as long as you know where it's coming from. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
I am, of course, assuming you're not just fighting a single ship. If you're fighting a single ship or even a handful coming at you from a similar position, thats fine. But what about if they aren't all coming from the same direction? Or firing simultaneously? Best outcome there is splitting the systems, pointing one over there, the other over there, the third over there, etc. But that splits the effectiveness.
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
More seriously, the LDA system in the universe I wanted to snag the idea from, has the same limitations. Every "shield" can track only one threat - even then it can only track a half-sphere, so two shields covering the entire ship can't track two threats from the same direction. The idea is to maneuver, dodge, and ideally keep more than one ship from firing at you at a given time from a given direction.
Also, this system can't deflect lasers, at least in that universe. Too fast to intercept. But, lasers we can in theory defend against - more easily than against kinetic slugs, at least, in ER.
Also also, if you have ships coming at you from different directions and don't have some ships of your own to occupy the ships flanking you, you're boned regardless of the defense tech you're using. Having defenses is not an excuse to go waltzing into a skirmish with a sniper rifle.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 19, 2015, 11:59:31 am
Quote
As in a defensive shield made using these things isn't gonna function because that laser is gonna hit and do damage before the manip can swivel around to aim at it.
I am, of course, assuming you're not just fighting a single ship. If you're fighting a single ship or even a handful coming at you from a similar position, thats fine. But what about if they aren't all coming from the same direction? Or firing simultaneously? Best outcome there is splitting the systems, pointing one over there, the other over there, the third over there, etc. But that splits the effectiveness.
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I was kinda assuming we were talking kinetics, since we have extremely laser absorbent materials available. Though even then, the principle stands: if you have an 'always on' automanip, you don't care how fast the enemy hits, as long as you can spot the ship before they fire (and they need to spot you before they can fire anyway) and aim the defenses.
And even then, there should be ways to make it work. How about this: a lone ship in the middle of the fleet projecting a spherical defense with an automanip. To cut down on the volume it needs to cover (and thus, lower manip requirements) you only 'fill up' the outer shell of the sphere. So, eg a 10km sphere would only have the outer shell of about 100m diameter as an 'active zone'. That'd mean 4188 km3 is covered, but the automanip influence/effect volume only is 4188 - 4064 = 124km3. And the effect needed is only minimal, just pushing the projectile/particles (lasers are photons, so it might work for both) 10° perpendicular to the traveling axis. If you then place your fleet within a 9km sphere around that central ship (3053 km3 to deploy ships in), every shot will miss by at least 176m.
Post by: Nikitian on February 05, 2015, 04:47:20 pm
MCP-I plus medical systems of Mk II sans the irises (the neck one gets added, though) plus a small tank of fleshknitter (just in case you forgot, that regenerative "fill the wound to the brim with stem cells" substance, cost 5 tokens per can). How much would it cost?
Also, let's check something new that might be useful. Let's say we add the lower half - legs, to be precise - of an exosketon stripped down to 1/3 or maybe even 1/5 of original might (use the new models, of course). The idea here is that they'd assist with walking, running and jumping, taking away some of the fatigue and increasing the metrics - i.e. jumping higher, running faster, and so on. Would that very toned-down cut exoskeleton version increase the suit cost much? What if it was sold separately?
Oh, and add the wall-walking soles re-engineered from Nekarios's Doctor-upgraded mechanic legs. You know, those that originally were spidery many, and ended up a mere human-like pair.
((Mostly intended for regular army foot-infantry use where simple endurance means a lot. But wall-walking is useful to everyone. Discussion and criticism welcome! ...In Heph OOC thread, I suppose.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 05, 2015, 06:06:03 pm
Would it be possible to create exact duplicates of artifacts by developing a sort of spess magic scanner? Idea would be it just creates an exact duplicate of something. Not for actually mass producing things, but for creating a back up so testing can be done it bit more freely.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 05, 2015, 06:28:24 pm
Well, if we're doing this...There is the precision duplicator automanipulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138720.msg5304904#msg5304904), although I'm not sure if it works with non-human space magic or what adverse effects combining different kinds of space magic might have. And I bet it would be kind of expensive to build or at least rare, since it's one of the special things we need Steve to import for the space magic facility.
Would it be possible to create exact duplicates of artifacts by developing a sort of spess magic scanner? Idea would be it just creates an exact duplicate of something. Not for actually mass producing things, but for creating a back up so testing can be done it bit more freely.
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2015, 12:38:31 pm
Well, if we're doing this...It depends on the artifact. Something which is fairly mundane, like the Hex material or Samsonite abyss sand or that kind of thing could be copied. But something like the alien power source that hates milno or the deathcube couldn't be. Well, they could be but the copy would either be inferior or completely lack the original's "special" capacities.
Would it be possible to create exact duplicates of artifacts by developing a sort of spess magic scanner? Idea would be it just creates an exact duplicate of something. Not for actually mass producing things, but for creating a back up so testing can be done it bit more freely.
Okay, let's finish the deal with MCP-II. May Simus/Pyro ever forgive me.forgive me, but I forget what the MCP-I is, specifically in how it's different from a normal MKI
MCP-I plus medical systems of Mk II sans the irises (the neck one gets added, though) plus a small tank of fleshknitter (just in case you forgot, that regenerative "fill the wound to the brim with stem cells" substance, cost 5 tokens per can). How much would it cost?
Also, let's check something new that might be useful. Let's say we add the lower half - legs, to be precise - of an exosketon stripped down to 1/3 or maybe even 1/5 of original might (use the new models, of course). The idea here is that they'd assist with walking, running and jumping, taking away some of the fatigue and increasing the metrics - i.e. jumping higher, running faster, and so on. Would that very toned-down cut exoskeleton version increase the suit cost much? What if it was sold separately?
Oh, and add the wall-walking soles re-engineered from Nekarios's Doctor-upgraded mechanic legs. You know, those that originally were spidery many, and ended up a mere human-like pair.
((Mostly intended for regular army foot-infantry use where simple endurance means a lot. But wall-walking is useful to everyone. Discussion and criticism welcome! ...In Heph OOC thread, I suppose.))
It would probably increase it by a token, but at 1/5th you'd be getting very small returns in most instances.
Post by: Nikitian on February 06, 2015, 02:46:00 pm
So, MCP-II: MCP-I plus medical system and the neck iris of Mk II and a small tank of fleshknitter to boot. How much?
By the way, if the user suffered, say, a gauss rifle perforating shot, would the fleshknitter be able to seal off the blood loss? What about catching a stray non-nuclear HGC shot (in a way that does not turn you into paste)?
As for the exoskeleton, let's ditch it altogether. But keep the wall-walking soles - those are basically free, right?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 07, 2015, 09:09:11 am
Secondly, Could you describe the plasma projector? How does it look, inside and outside? When I pull the trigger, what happens inside of the gun?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 07, 2015, 02:18:43 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 09, 2015, 01:02:16 pm
What's the feasibility of jump gates? Space stations that accelerate small ships through jump points and decelerate them on the other side if needed. Can that be done? Either with space magic vector manips or giant space coilguns or solar-sail-like things accelerated by lasers?It's the sort of thing which is possible, assuming the ships can survive the acceleration.
Remember those training vids, the ones for insurgent npc's? Well, the last batch are the general strategy ones. Could you give me an idea on what kind of format you'd like that in, and how much detail? Just a very broad idea will do.Well, something along the lines of a outline of the material being presented and how it is presented would be good. You know, a bulleted list of the stuff being covered with a small summary of the goals of the video at the bottom.
Secondly, Could you describe the plasma projector? How does it look, inside and outside? When I pull the trigger, what happens inside of the gun?
MCP was Simus's Mechanical Counter-Pressure suit, skintight to protect from vacuum. The replacement for Mk I... which should've probably become standard equipment by now, or will very soon.1. Hmmm...Well, MKI are free, MkII's are 5 and their only real addition is the medical system. Say 5. Mostly because of the addition of the fleshknitter too.
So, MCP-II: MCP-I plus medical system and the neck iris of Mk II and a small tank of fleshknitter to boot. How much?
By the way, if the user suffered, say, a gauss rifle perforating shot, would the fleshknitter be able to seal off the blood loss? What about catching a stray non-nuclear HGC shot (in a way that does not turn you into paste)?
As for the exoskeleton, let's ditch it altogether. But keep the wall-walking soles - those are basically free, right?
2. Seal off the bloodloss? Probably yeah. As per that one...lets say the round just tears your damn arm off or whatever. I forget the MCP for the most part...but if I remember right it's a thing which uses negative pressure or something to seal small holes in the suit right? I'm not sure how that would react to having a whole limb ripped off. Ask simus, but the medical system, originally, was designed to use an iris to cut above the point of trauma and then seal the wound. Without the irises the thing is just gonna kinda have to spray fleshknitter in the general area and hope it works.
3.Free enough not to matter.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 09, 2015, 01:40:09 pm
Secondly, can things like plasma ball size, temperature and speed of the projectile be altered, and if yes, to what extent?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 09, 2015, 03:15:13 pm
Post by: Xantalos on February 09, 2015, 05:25:30 pm
Do people have to be in stasis during space travel?Just to answer this prematurely, I'm pretty sure they don't but they might get too old on the way to their destination and the jump transit kills people IIRC so they stasis.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 09, 2015, 06:52:56 pm
I meant jump points, yes. I'll edit to clarify.Do people have to be in stasis during space travel?Just to answer this prematurely, I'm pretty sure they don't but they might get too old on the way to their destination and the jump transit kills people IIRC so they stasis.
Post by: Nikitian on February 09, 2015, 09:29:24 pm
Can the fleshknitter tank size be safely decreased without impacting the performance as tested above? Also, could it work with just coagulant boosters instead of fleshknitter?
And how much would adding back the irises system increase the cost? What about leaving only the most crucial ones (say, one for each limb plus maybe a cross-torso one if it ever existed)?
Post by: PyroDesu on February 11, 2015, 11:09:06 am
2. Seal off the bloodloss? Probably yeah. As per that one...lets say the round just tears your damn arm off or whatever. I forget the MCP for the most part...but if I remember right it's a thing which uses negative pressure or something to seal small holes in the suit right? I'm not sure how that would react to having a whole limb ripped off. Ask simus, but the medical system, originally, was designed to use an iris to cut above the point of trauma and then seal the wound. Without the irises the thing is just gonna kinda have to spray fleshknitter in the general area and hope it works.
It uses mechanical pressure to prevent total decompression in event of rupture, nothing more or less. There's still a hole in the suit, but decompression effects remain localized (unfortunately, the only effects I know would happen would have the skin unbroken at the start - with a cut, it could act like a normal wound, foam from outgassing, or (not likely) spray like you hit an artery. With traumatic amputation, it could act like a weak tourniquet for all I know).
Post by: piecewise on February 11, 2015, 11:17:29 am
Do people have to be in stasis during travel through jump points?The jump point isn't the problem. Traveling through it is both instantaneous and completely uneventful, at least from the perspective of an observer on the ship. The problem is that the ship has to be going very quickly to "use" the point. And while we could just accurate at 1 g for a long period and everyone could sit around and wait while we traveled, under normal circumstances we accelerate at several g's, enough to kill you. Stasis is a way to protect you from the acceleration and to pass the time needed to accelerate.
Could you describe the plasma projector? How does it look, inside and outside? When I pull the trigger, what happens inside of the gun?As of right now, the standard one is rather useless as a platform to build upon. Mainly because it isn't much more then a tube with an automanip inside it. There's no real complex mechanisms or anything to tinker with.
Secondly, can things like plasma ball size, temperature and speed of the projectile be altered, and if yes, to what extent?
Run the simulation through several variants of limbs torn off, then holes punched through flesh (say, thigh or something - without ripping off the leg, just a nice awful gaping through and through hole) and through flesh with cavities (shot to the guts, etc.). Can the fleshknitter keep the user alive and (somewhat) able?According to some talking I've been doing with others, large punctures of the suit AND the person inside would be...well they would be rather unpleasant. Toothpaste tubes being squeezed is a good analogy. That combined with the fact that the fleshknitter will have a much harder time working effectively without the irises makes me think adding those irises back is a good idea.
Can the fleshknitter tank size be safely decreased without impacting the performance as tested above? Also, could it work with just coagulant boosters instead of fleshknitter?
And how much would adding back the irises system increase the cost? What about leaving only the most crucial ones (say, one for each limb plus maybe a cross-torso one if it ever existed)?
Putting the irises back wouldn't cost anything, they're simple things.
You could only use the most important ones, if you were so inclined. But that would mean losing the entire arm for a bad wound on the hand.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 11, 2015, 11:46:45 am
Quote
As of right now, the standard one is rather useless as a platform to build upon. Mainly because it isn't much more then a tube with an automanip inside it. There's no real complex mechanisms or anything to tinker with.
Wait, so everything is done by an automanip, from creating the plasma and containment field to firing it?
Would it be possible to replace part of what the manip does, such as plasma creation, to lower the cost due to needing a lesser automanip?
Post by: Nikitian on February 11, 2015, 12:07:46 pm
So, in the case where irises system is dirt-cheap, let's just put all of it back again. Now, the suit is basically hard-skintight Mk II with an added tank of fleshknitter and wall-walking soles, and it still costs mere 5 tokens (with industrial cost reduction applied, I'm working on behalf of Hephaestus here), right?
Out of curiosity, how much would the same design with no fleshknitter cost? And would it then be possible to have fleshknitter tank (refillable per maintenance) available as an upgrade? Just like that blue-rad cell addon of Mk III-A.
@Pyro: We scrapped the armor part of the original design because sharksuit was developed alongside, and an option of bying just a chestplate piece for 1 token was introduced.
Post by: piecewise on February 13, 2015, 12:58:28 pm
Gotta remember, like most of those big heavy weapons this thing is a relic of different times, one in which longevity was less important than damage.QuoteAs of right now, the standard one is rather useless as a platform to build upon. Mainly because it isn't much more then a tube with an automanip inside it. There's no real complex mechanisms or anything to tinker with.
Wait, so everything is done by an automanip, from creating the plasma and containment field to firing it?
Would it be possible to replace part of what the manip does, such as plasma creation, to lower the cost due to needing a lesser automanip?
You could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.
Once upon a time, you said that a MCP-II suit (without fleshknitter back then) as MCP-I plus medical system (no irises) and simple armoring for the torso would cost 2 (medsys) + 1 (armor) = 3 tokens; I have always presumed since then that irises system constituted the larger part of the vanilla Mk II cost. But if you changed your mind since then, it's totally fine.Yeah, that sounds about right.
So, in the case where irises system is dirt-cheap, let's just put all of it back again. Now, the suit is basically hard-skintight Mk II with an added tank of fleshknitter and wall-walking soles, and it still costs mere 5 tokens (with industrial cost reduction applied, I'm working on behalf of Hephaestus here), right?
Out of curiosity, how much would the same design with no fleshknitter cost? And would it then be possible to have fleshknitter tank (refillable per maintenance) available as an upgrade? Just like that blue-rad cell addon of Mk III-A.
@Pyro: We scrapped the armor part of the original design because sharksuit was developed alongside, and an option of bying just a chestplate piece for 1 token was introduced.
Ehhh, lets say it's 2 tokens. So 3 for the suit without it.
Post by: Xantalos on February 13, 2015, 01:03:55 pm
Post by: Nikitian on February 14, 2015, 09:27:53 am
The suit itself - use the library of new designs (software, hardware, etc. etc. ) to upgrade the corresponding systems of the suit. See if we now can fit a slightly more powerful generator without increasing overall cost. Also, check if there is a way to provide better electrical insulation (again, without increasing the suit price - maybe a tiny layer of hexsand in the suit, or something?).
Whatever changes are made, keep the price at three tokens. Or minimize/discard the required changes.
Finally, the upgrades. Just how big is that 'small tank'? Can it hold one or several doses of battlestimms? If so, design another tank-upgrade, refillable per maintenance, to be filled with chosen battlestimm substance. Of course, as expensive as it takes.
At the very least, I see that there is also potential for upgrade-tanks with bluesmoke substance and whatever temporary intoxicant for refilling mind points woks, but they would require additional research and it can come later.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 14, 2015, 09:34:00 am
Quote
You could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.
So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?
And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?
Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 14, 2015, 10:56:11 am
Take Anton's Plasma Stake and fit it with the automanip of choice if you want an interim solution. Anton will be working on a completely non-manipulator plasma weapon design once he gets through the rest of his backlog.QuoteYou could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.
So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?
And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?
Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 14, 2015, 11:43:09 am
Quote
Take Anton's Plasma Stake and fit it with the automanip of choice if you want an interim solution. Anton will be working on a completely non-manipulator plasma weapon design once he gets through the rest of his backlog.
Sure, if that works, fine by me. Unless pw asks me to, I wasn't gonna describe in detail how the plasma generation goes, since that's not an exotic mechanism or something.
Post by: piecewise on February 16, 2015, 02:16:50 pm
I should probably ask this beforehand - when I start doing biotech bullshit either onship or Heph, should I put speculation on the design here? Not quite sure how closely this is stick to IC or OOC anymore, but I do recall that shapeshifting isn't programmed into Tinker, so I'd better ask beforehand.Are you gonna be on heph?
Okay, then let's have a few slots for such or similar tanks - say, four. Let's keep the baseline suit at three tokens, and allow it to be upgraded with these small tanks.Alright.
The suit itself - use the library of new designs (software, hardware, etc. etc. ) to upgrade the corresponding systems of the suit. See if we now can fit a slightly more powerful generator without increasing overall cost. Also, check if there is a way to provide better electrical insulation (again, without increasing the suit price - maybe a tiny layer of hexsand in the suit, or something?).
Whatever changes are made, keep the price at three tokens. Or minimize/discard the required changes.
Finally, the upgrades. Just how big is that 'small tank'? Can it hold one or several doses of battlestimms? If so, design another tank-upgrade, refillable per maintenance, to be filled with chosen battlestimm substance. Of course, as expensive as it takes.
At the very least, I see that there is also potential for upgrade-tanks with bluesmoke substance and whatever temporary intoxicant for refilling mind points woks, but they would require additional research and it can come later.
I don't think we can really update much whichout raising the price.
We may, at some point here, have to institute actual currency so everything isn't restrained to 1 token or nothing.
I was thinking soda can sized. And it can be filled with battle stims already. Just take the pills and pour the liquid inside them into it.
Yeah, that could work.QuoteYou could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.
So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?
And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?
Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?
it could potentially go down, yes. By several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.
Using automanips or...?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 16, 2015, 04:45:01 pm
Quote
By several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.
Thing is, I'm not sure if we can forego the magnetism problem. I mean, we could try to focus the plasma into a tight beam, but even then I don't think it would get very far in any appreciable atmosphere. I suspect it'd disperse too fast to be of use, except maybe very sort ranges (but that plasma stake kinda has that covered).
In fact, wikipedia has a page on plasma weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon), which says:
Quote
Plasma weapons are theoretical, as they need more power than any handheld device could supply. If small portable fusion reactors are made, one potential source of weapons-grade plasma sources might be a direct tap on a fusion reactor, especially a dense plasma focus, since the natural yield of such a reactor is a hot high-speed plasma beam. Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons:Some of these points can be solved by ER scifi handwavium, but the things in bold are kinda inherent to the design. Some solutions for the second one are proposed, but they all bank on 'if hypothetical X can somehow be achieved, then it might be possible'. And then there's the last issue, of course, and if ER armor is strong enough to shrug of stuff that'd be anti-tank grade in current RL... yeah.
- The technology to create plasma compact toroids[4] and particle beams is far too bulky for anything man-portable. In such a high-performance design, the plasma would have to be stored and created in highly focused magnetic bottles, such as those used in NASA's VASIMR rocket: this design has been suggested as a potential weapon design for future real human-engineered plasma weapons. For simpler designs based on plasma cutting torches, a designer might be able to heat the plasma with an arcjet, if his power source is strong enough.
- Using current technology, if a plasma beam was fired in a planetary atmosphere, it would quickly be stopped by atmospheric resistance and would make a short hot flame like a blow torch.
- The plasma shot out of a plasma weapon would tend to dissipate in the surrounding environment within about 50 centimeters from the gun, from thermal and/or electric pressure expansion, called blooming, unless:
-The magnetic confinement bottle is extended all the way to the target. Modifications to this bottle could make the plasma home in on its target. On the other hand, magnetic fields of such strength could also be used to block the plasma.
-The plasma is somehow made self-sustaining over a much longer time period as with ball lightning.
-The particles are fired fast enough to reach a target before blooming occurs. This is then a particle beam more than a plasma shot (at least as much as any technical definition for such weapons exists). This would work for use outside atmosphere (i.e. in a space vacuum), but within an atmosphere would merely cause a hotter short flame from more violent collision between the flying particles and the atmosphere.
-It might also be possible to generate a laser beam "tunnel". High-energy lasers ionize the air around the beam, heating the atmosphere and providing the plasma bolt with an easy passage to the target (see electrolaser).
-Another laser-assisted plasma weapon approach for use in atmosphere is possible if the laser is powerful enough to blast the air out of the way, but having the plasma particles reach the target before the newly created vacuum channel collapses in on itself is a problem unless the weapon possesses sufficient power to either sustain the channel or the aforementioned "plasma particle beam" approach is used.
-It may also be possible to encase a bolt of plasma in a capsule of some material, possibly a polymer. This would allow the plasma to reach a medium distance before the capsule wears out. However, such a material could also be used to block the plasma.- A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.
- Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.
I suppose we could go for the option colored in red, aka trap the plasma inside a shell that breaks on impact and which 'aims' the plasma jet to the target, but that sounds rather expensive, though more feasible than the other options presented there. I can think of a way to make a sort of shell that creates a tiny magnetic shield just inside itself to contain the plasma, and which on impact breaks so that the magnetic shield bends toward the target, but things like creating ball
Based on the options presented above, which one do you think would be most practical/achievable using ER tech (note that I can put a science team on it if there's one that'd be perfect, but requires some R&D to get there).
Quote
QuoteFinally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?Using automanips or...?
Yes, with automanips.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 16, 2015, 10:46:13 pm
There's basically no way to avoid using ammo with the plasma weapon design. May as well make the ammo a bit fancier if it means making the weapon itself cheaper and better understood.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on February 17, 2015, 09:56:40 am
Would it be possible to dilute effects down, for example 2+/3-? Or even 1+/2-?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 17, 2015, 10:39:55 am
Quote
At the risk of compromising my own design - we don't need automanips, and we don't need a resistant shell. Tiny bluerad cell plus some superconducting wire will get you the bane of modern-day fusion research - a tokamak. Get some research done on field configurations that allow a circular ring of plasma to be maintained around a core, with no outer wall - this would yield us a throwable plasma disk saw. Stuff it into an easily-breakable aerodynamic disk shell for personal weapons (ship weapons can do without), fit it with a destruct mechanism to prevent the enemy from finding useful shards of blueraditite, and you got your poor man's plasma weapon.
There's basically no way to avoid using ammo with the plasma weapon design. May as well make the ammo a bit fancier if it means making the weapon itself cheaper and better understood.
Ha, but of course you would go with a tokamak instead of a stellerator. I'm on to you!
But for the actual idea, while the idea of throwing miniature fusion generators at people is inherently hilarious, I don't really think it'd work that well. For starters, if you're using a shell anyways to protect it from the atmosphere, you might as well forego the iffy 'field configurations that allow a circular ring of plasma to be maintained around a core, with no outer wall' and just use your outer shell to contain it. And really, if you're throwing a physical construct anyway, why not trap the plasma inside a hollow shell? It'd focus the plasma more, since inside a tokamak, it's spread out over the entire torus (i think?), while it'd be concentrated into a small sphere/prolate spheroid if you use a shell with coils in the inside to trap the plasma.
And I'm starting to wonder whether we should even bother with plasma weapons. If that wiki article is right, and plasma is easily shielded against, it might be more efficient to take the energy that would normally go into a plasma shot and instead use that energy in a different way (a big laser/PEW for example).
And either way, an automanip magical containment field has the advantage that it forces all of the plasma to go through the target and deliver its energy. If you don't use that, I can imagine a whole lot of it is lost to scatter or whatever on impact, regardless of what we use.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on February 17, 2015, 03:56:10 pm
And either way, an automanip magical containment field has the advantage that it forces all of the plasma to go through the target and deliver its energy. If you don't use that, I can imagine a whole lot of it is lost to scatter or whatever on impact, regardless of what we use.The idea is to make plasma weapons cheap. Like, cutting laser cheap. A mass of plasma delivers more destructive energy than an equivalent mass of gauss slug, and their starting state is the same. With blueraditite we have a potential source of abundant energy for compact applications.
Also, there is plasma, and there is plasma. Neutral plasma is just a really hot gas. Pick the right material to plasmarize though, and you get a highly chemically aggressive substance (it's stripped of all electrons after all) that is, on top of that, searing hot and with a very high heat capacity due to high density. Think real magma combined with Hollywood acid and turned into a compressed gas. It's just nasty. It's also hard to contain, even with magnetic fields.
You're right that the automanip forcefield is superior in that it forces the plasma to fully come in contact with the target. But in absence of space-magical forcefields, the next best thing is a dense cloud concentrated around a core. The problem with just using a shell is that the shell will break apart on impact, and the plasma will just erupt into a fireball. With a toroid magnetic field holding the plasma in a ring, the plasma won't scatter until the core itself is destroyed, and by then it'll have deposited at least half of its plasma into the target - that's not even accounting for the plasma itself spinning in the toroid. The aerodynamic shell is then simply designed to break - it is neither expensive like the plasma-containing one, nor a good source of plasma-resistant materials to the enemy, it's just there to stop the plasma from scattering to the winds.
And of course I went for the Tokamak. :P
If the design can be whittled down enough to compete with the cutting laser for cost-per-shot, we can just deploy them en masse - most of the cost for the original plasma projector's ammo is the battery cell to power the manipulator. With the "plasma disc" you'll just have a bluerad cell the size of maybe a grain of rice (it doesn't need to live long), some basic materials, and a regular gauss rifle mechanism handles the launching. Mass-producible plasma weapon. It won't have the same massive penetration, but it will defeat armor with similar ease (even if in smaller chunks), and be pretty good at taking out groups of enemies (via plasma fireball). If it can be made to work, of course.
Post by: tryrar on February 17, 2015, 04:39:21 pm
Post by: Nikitian on February 17, 2015, 08:42:02 pm
Spoiler: MCP-II recap (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2015, 12:24:28 pm
The electrolaser got away with it because there wasn't a lot of practical difference gameplay wise between it and the normal laser.QuoteBy several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.
Thing is, I'm not sure if we can forego the magnetism problem. I mean, we could try to focus the plasma into a tight beam, but even then I don't think it would get very far in any appreciable atmosphere. I suspect it'd disperse too fast to be of use, except maybe very sort ranges (but that plasma stake kinda has that covered).
In fact, wikipedia has a page on plasma weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon), which says:QuotePlasma weapons are theoretical, as they need more power than any handheld device could supply. If small portable fusion reactors are made, one potential source of weapons-grade plasma sources might be a direct tap on a fusion reactor, especially a dense plasma focus, since the natural yield of such a reactor is a hot high-speed plasma beam. Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons:Some of these points can be solved by ER scifi handwavium, but the things in bold are kinda inherent to the design. Some solutions for the second one are proposed, but they all bank on 'if hypothetical X can somehow be achieved, then it might be possible'. And then there's the last issue, of course, and if ER armor is strong enough to shrug of stuff that'd be anti-tank grade in current RL... yeah.
- The technology to create plasma compact toroids[4] and particle beams is far too bulky for anything man-portable. In such a high-performance design, the plasma would have to be stored and created in highly focused magnetic bottles, such as those used in NASA's VASIMR rocket: this design has been suggested as a potential weapon design for future real human-engineered plasma weapons. For simpler designs based on plasma cutting torches, a designer might be able to heat the plasma with an arcjet, if his power source is strong enough.
- Using current technology, if a plasma beam was fired in a planetary atmosphere, it would quickly be stopped by atmospheric resistance and would make a short hot flame like a blow torch.
- The plasma shot out of a plasma weapon would tend to dissipate in the surrounding environment within about 50 centimeters from the gun, from thermal and/or electric pressure expansion, called blooming, unless:
-The magnetic confinement bottle is extended all the way to the target. Modifications to this bottle could make the plasma home in on its target. On the other hand, magnetic fields of such strength could also be used to block the plasma.
-The plasma is somehow made self-sustaining over a much longer time period as with ball lightning.
-The particles are fired fast enough to reach a target before blooming occurs. This is then a particle beam more than a plasma shot (at least as much as any technical definition for such weapons exists). This would work for use outside atmosphere (i.e. in a space vacuum), but within an atmosphere would merely cause a hotter short flame from more violent collision between the flying particles and the atmosphere.
-It might also be possible to generate a laser beam "tunnel". High-energy lasers ionize the air around the beam, heating the atmosphere and providing the plasma bolt with an easy passage to the target (see electrolaser).
-Another laser-assisted plasma weapon approach for use in atmosphere is possible if the laser is powerful enough to blast the air out of the way, but having the plasma particles reach the target before the newly created vacuum channel collapses in on itself is a problem unless the weapon possesses sufficient power to either sustain the channel or the aforementioned "plasma particle beam" approach is used.
-It may also be possible to encase a bolt of plasma in a capsule of some material, possibly a polymer. This would allow the plasma to reach a medium distance before the capsule wears out. However, such a material could also be used to block the plasma.- A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.
- Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.
I suppose we could go for the option colored in red, aka trap the plasma inside a shell that breaks on impact and which 'aims' the plasma jet to the target, but that sounds rather expensive, though more feasible than the other options presented there. I can think of a way to make a sort of shell that creates a tiny magnetic shield just inside itself to contain the plasma, and which on impact breaks so that the magnetic shield bends toward the target, but things like creating balllightningplasma or iffy electrolaser-like designs sound implausible (then again, I didn't think an electrolaser would work well for reasons I stated when it was being made. But those issues weren't deemed problematic enough back then to halt the design, so I dunno. I guess we could make it work if we played fast and very loose with the practical limits of physics and engineering).
Based on the options presented above, which one do you think would be most practical/achievable using ER tech (note that I can put a science team on it if there's one that'd be perfect, but requires some R&D to get there).QuoteQuoteFinally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?Using automanips or...?
Yes, with automanips.
Hmm. This is a tricky thing, ain't it? The shell is probably the best alternative, but I have a sneaking suspition that it's gonna be pretty expensive and probably not that different in effectiveness or price over all. It might be better over all to ignore this as a technological dead end and focus on other, more viable technologies.
Say, do battle stims behave like christmas potions? Meaning do I have use it all at once or nothing at all? Because 5+/6- duration of effects is a bit too long for my preferences.So the same stat boosts but lower time scales on both ends?
Would it be possible to dilute effects down, for example 2+/3-? Or even 1+/2-?
Currently no, watering them down won't work. But that sounds like something Heph could make, if you ask them to.
Well then - finalize the suit, and transmit the schematics to Hephaestus for their use!(I'd post that spoiler in their thread. Give em a good slap)Spoiler: MCP-II recap (click to show/hide)
Post by: Xantalos on February 18, 2015, 03:15:13 pm
Quote
Are you gonna be on heph?If/when they get around to waking me up eventually. What with the way things are going on ship I might be there sooner than I thought, but my eventual hope is that I can have a copy of me active on both Heph and the sword with a third in stasis on Heph. Cheesy as fuck, but if you'll accept it, I can do some interesting things for their troops...
.............
anarmyofflesh
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 18, 2015, 04:43:33 pm
anti-batlesuit weapon rather than anti-infantry for the moment, since a good laser or mini PSL or gauss design probably fills anti infantry better/more efficient. Though plasma bullets does sound cool, I must admit.
Maybe as an alternative to the gauss rifle or as alternative gauss/ rocket rifle/sibilus ammo.
And let's assume for a second that the hardware price and reliability for a plasma weapon are the same as for a good laser (which is generous towards the plasma design I think, but why not). Since a laser also works through applying heat (which is also the primary damaging component of a plasma weapon) we can then compare how much damage/penetration power you get for the same amount of energy (eg same sized bluerad shard) and determine if the slightly different damage type of plasma weighs up.
If not, we can just use a laser with same energy use and be better of. The point is that we shouldn't go for a plasma weapon because plasma is cool and exotic, but because it gives good bang per buck (or at least acceptable bang per buck, so that it having a bit different 'damage type' could come into play).
Quote
The problem with just using a shell is that the shell will break apart on impact, and the plasma will just erupt into a fireball. With a toroid magnetic field holding the plasma in a ring, the plasma won't scatter until the core itself is destroyed, and by then it'll have deposited at least half of its plasma into the target - that's not even accounting for the plasma itself spinning in the toroid. The aerodynamic shell is then simply designed to break - it is neither expensive like the plasma-containing one, nor a good source of plasma-resistant materials to the enemy, it's just there to stop the plasma from scattering to the winds.
Well, you are right that it would explode into a plasma fireball if it were just a regular container.
But as I alluded to, the idea is that while traveling, the plasma is contained in a (foot)ball shape, and once the shell hits it
cracks in such a way that the magnetic field lines form a thin cone to push the plasma out in a jet stream. Kinda like how in a
regular bomb the explosion goes everywhere, but a shaped charge funnels it into a focused jet. I'm not sure if it's possible to construct the
(electro?)magnets in such a way that they'll create the correctly shaped field lines to concentrate the plasma and push it forward, but it
sounds much easier to build something like this than to get strong enough field lines to contain a plasma out of thin air (aka without an outer shell).
The shaped charge analogy is a rather apt one really, we could call it a 'shaped plasma charge' and it'd be pretty on the mark.
Here, I made some horrible drawings to illustrate the point. The lines show the magnetic containment lines, and thus how the plasma is shaped.
Note that after penetrating the armor, it might result in a spray of hot plasma everywhere depending on how far the field lines reach.
___
/ \
\___/
___ [
/ \ [
\___/ [
__ [
|__>[
[
__[
|__>
[
Quote
Hmm. This is a tricky thing, ain't it? The shell is probably the best alternative, but I have a sneaking suspition that it's gonna be pretty expensive and probably not that different in effectiveness or price over all. It might be better over all to ignore this as a technological dead end and focus on other, more viable technologies.
Yeah, I'm getting this feeling as well. However, if you'll humor me, I'm gonna look into it a little more. but if it indeed doesn't work out, I'm gonna drop it like it's hot.
So, going with the design layed out above for a solid shell to carry the plasma, what price range are we looking at here? Assume that the plasma is formed inside the gun, and then 'injected' into the shell, which is then closed up (a sliding lid or whatever) and fired.
Secondly, regardless of delivery system, how does the raw destructive power per kilojoule energy used of a decent laser compare to that of a plasma weapon
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 18, 2015, 06:13:19 pm
If you can reconfigure how the plasma will be converted and directed before firing, you can cause each bullet to behave differently. You can have armour piercing that direct the stream into a single point, anti-infantry that explodes into a wide cone, something that acts as a grenade, something that acts as a flare, etc.
You just have to compare it to regular explosives to see if it's worth it.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 18, 2015, 06:19:37 pm
Why not shoot a device that can convert the entirety of the energy contained in the bluread battery into heat directed towards the target at the moment of impact or some distance before that, depending on the setting it's on? It would probably be cheaper than maintaining a magnetic field. It's like an explosive, but because bluerad doesn't explode on its own, you have to convert the energy contained within it into electricity first.
If you can reconfigure how the plasma will be converted and directed before firing, you can cause each bullet to behave differently. You can have armour piercing that direct the stream into a single point, anti-infantry that explodes into a wide cone, something that acts as a grenade, something that acts as a flare, etc.
You just have to compare it to regular explosives to see if it's worth it.
Yeah, but again, at that point it might be simpler to just let that bluerad shard power a laser with variable settings. True, you might not get a grenade function, but to cover that you can just use... well, actual grenades.
Not entirely sure if your method would be cheaper. It's an interesting idea, but to get those magnetic fields a container made with some permanent magnets can be used, don't think it'd be extravagantly expensive, compared to a system in each shell to convert the bluerad into energy. Dunno, PW would have to say, I'll try to check turn after this one (or you can, you're allowed to tinker as well now).
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 19, 2015, 01:32:01 pm
Hey, any thoughts about the following anti-armour weapons? Which one would you say is the most effective compared to its price?
1. An armour piercing gauss round
2. A laser that fires very strong but relatively short pulses. Each shot consumes a shell containing a small bluerad bead, probably combined with some coolant to take care of the heat generated by firing such a powerful laser, if a heat sink can't cut it.
3. A shell with a small bluerad bead that uses its energy to create plasma and direct it into an armour piercing jet as it hits the target, like a shaped charge. Either permanent magnets, electromagnets feeding off the bluerad bead or a combination of the two can be used to direct the jet, combined with the natural pressure its heat provides.
4. A shell with a bluerad bead that simply maintains plasma that is created by the launcher using a combination of electromagnets feeding off the bluerad bead an permanent magnets. On impact, it uses its electromagnets to direct a plasma jet towards the target.
EDIT: Irrelevant: Hexsand armour is good at blocking heat, right? So it could be used as some sort of heat sink?
((You could probably up the destructive potential of the plasma by using a material that also causes chemical damage to the armour, but I don't know if something like that is possible.))
EDIT2: 3 is kinda like launching those short range weapons Sean made for BSs, now that I think about it, with the only difference being that it's one time use only and uses a more efficient battery, so it should be a lot cheaper.
Post by: Nikitian on February 21, 2015, 07:04:47 am
Is it possible to confer superior animal reflexes through use of animal wetware AI (or possibly a similar spinal cord-based wetware system)? Provided there are synthetic (or hydraulic, or whatever) 'muscles' (of a robot body or an exoskeleton) connected to it, of course.
Post by: piecewise on February 21, 2015, 12:31:49 pm
I'm not sure we can make it really 'cheap' while still getting enough destructive power at lower levels. I'm leaning more in the direction of
anti-batlesuit weapon rather than anti-infantry for the moment, since a good laser or mini PSL or gauss design probably fills anti infantry better/more efficient. Though plasma bullets does sound cool, I must admit.
Maybe as an alternative to the gauss rifle or as alternative gauss/ rocket rifle/sibilus ammo.
And let's assume for a second that the hardware price and reliability for a plasma weapon are the same as for a good laser (which is generous towards the plasma design I think, but why not). Since a laser also works through applying heat (which is also the primary damaging component of a plasma weapon) we can then compare how much damage/penetration power you get for the same amount of energy (eg same sized bluerad shard) and determine if the slightly different damage type of plasma weighs up.
If not, we can just use a laser with same energy use and be better of. The point is that we shouldn't go for a plasma weapon because plasma is cool and exotic, but because it gives good bang per buck (or at least acceptable bang per buck, so that it having a bit different 'damage type' could come into play).QuoteThe problem with just using a shell is that the shell will break apart on impact, and the plasma will just erupt into a fireball. With a toroid magnetic field holding the plasma in a ring, the plasma won't scatter until the core itself is destroyed, and by then it'll have deposited at least half of its plasma into the target - that's not even accounting for the plasma itself spinning in the toroid. The aerodynamic shell is then simply designed to break - it is neither expensive like the plasma-containing one, nor a good source of plasma-resistant materials to the enemy, it's just there to stop the plasma from scattering to the winds.
Well, you are right that it would explode into a plasma fireball if it were just a regular container.
But as I alluded to, the idea is that while traveling, the plasma is contained in a (foot)ball shape, and once the shell hits it
cracks in such a way that the magnetic field lines form a thin cone to push the plasma out in a jet stream. Kinda like how in a
regular bomb the explosion goes everywhere, but a shaped charge funnels it into a focused jet. I'm not sure if it's possible to construct the
(electro?)magnets in such a way that they'll create the correctly shaped field lines to concentrate the plasma and push it forward, but it
sounds much easier to build something like this than to get strong enough field lines to contain a plasma out of thin air (aka without an outer shell).
The shaped charge analogy is a rather apt one really, we could call it a 'shaped plasma charge' and it'd be pretty on the mark.
Here, I made some horrible drawings to illustrate the point. The lines show the magnetic containment lines, and thus how the plasma is shaped.
Note that after penetrating the armor, it might result in a spray of hot plasma everywhere depending on how far the field lines reach.
___
/ \
\___/
___ [
/ \ [
\___/ [
__ [
|__>[
[
__[
|__>
[QuoteHmm. This is a tricky thing, ain't it? The shell is probably the best alternative, but I have a sneaking suspition that it's gonna be pretty expensive and probably not that different in effectiveness or price over all. It might be better over all to ignore this as a technological dead end and focus on other, more viable technologies.
Yeah, I'm getting this feeling as well. However, if you'll humor me, I'm gonna look into it a little more. but if it indeed doesn't work out, I'm gonna drop it like it's hot.
So, going with the design layed out above for a solid shell to carry the plasma, what price range are we looking at here? Assume that the plasma is formed inside the gun, and then 'injected' into the shell, which is then closed up (a sliding lid or whatever) and fired.
Secondly, regardless of delivery system, how does the raw destructive power per kilojoule energy used of a decent laser compare to that of a plasma weapon
The "Stick it in a jam jar and throw it at them" approach eh? Unfortunately there's a lot of very specific things this particular jam jar has to do. Has to hold the plasma, has to "break" in just the right way, has to be aerodynamic enough not to fly like a one winged turkey, has to be a reasonable size...I can't see it being reasonable with our current tech level.
I haven't a clue, smarty pants. The projector is our only plasma weapon and it's pretty much magic so we have no good comparison point.
Okay, sure, let's ask.1. We got some o' those already.
Hey, any thoughts about the following anti-armour weapons? Which one would you say is the most effective compared to its price?
1. An armour piercing gauss round
2. A laser that fires very strong but relatively short pulses. Each shot consumes a shell containing a small bluerad bead, probably combined with some coolant to take care of the heat generated by firing such a powerful laser, if a heat sink can't cut it.
3. A shell with a small bluerad bead that uses its energy to create plasma and direct it into an armour piercing jet as it hits the target, like a shaped charge. Either permanent magnets, electromagnets feeding off the bluerad bead or a combination of the two can be used to direct the jet, combined with the natural pressure its heat provides.
4. A shell with a bluerad bead that simply maintains plasma that is created by the launcher using a combination of electromagnets feeding off the bluerad bead an permanent magnets. On impact, it uses its electromagnets to direct a plasma jet towards the target.
EDIT: Irrelevant: Hexsand armour is good at blocking heat, right? So it could be used as some sort of heat sink?
((You could probably up the destructive potential of the plasma by using a material that also causes chemical damage to the armour, but I don't know if something like that is possible.))
EDIT2: 3 is kinda like launching those short range weapons Sean made for BSs, now that I think about it, with the only difference being that it's one time use only and uses a more efficient battery, so it should be a lot cheaper.
2. Possible way to create high power laser in small package. Armor piercing capacity depends on what it is up against. Good idea for creating cutting laser level power in rifle size though.
3. Here's that fucking plasma shit again.
4. MOTHER FUCKING PLASMA AGAIN!
Yes.
Fucking plasma.
How big is the smallest (human) wetware AI capable of sapience and personality with barebone lifesupport and interfacing equipment? How much brain matter would be required? What price range are we talking about here?
Is it possible to confer superior animal reflexes through use of animal wetware AI (or possibly a similar spinal cord-based wetware system)? Provided there are synthetic (or hydraulic, or whatever) 'muscles' (of a robot body or an exoskeleton) connected to it, of course.
About the size of a basketball, if you cram everything up in one area. And price range depends on several factors, including where you get the brain and their condition. The actual lifesupprt systems and AI stuff are well understood though, so those are pretty cheap.
Superior animal reflexes? Expand what you mean by that.
Post by: Nikitian on February 21, 2015, 12:57:36 pm
Basically, I'm looking for a way to externally boost the Dex stat of the user. Since it's all too often limited by the mental ability of the user to be agile, rather than actual rigidity, sluggishness and inflexibility of the body (especially in the case of robo-bodies), then maybe a 'mentally-proficient' co-pilot could help with that?
Or, if the animals feature all to different and in-adaptable physiology, perhaps a less-than-intelligent proper piece of a well-trained human's brain could suffice? Since it's not about proper thinking or decision-making (or whatever makes pristine brain-meat efficient at space magic and other things), maybe it could even be cloned or bioforge-printed.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 21, 2015, 02:14:50 pm
Quote
The "Stick it in a jam jar and throw it at them" approach eh? Unfortunately there's a lot of very specific things this particular jam jar has to do. Has to hold the plasma, has to "break" in just the right way, has to be aerodynamic enough not to fly like a one winged turkey, has to be a reasonable size...I can't see it being reasonable with our current tech level.
Yeah, was afraid of that. Kay then, shelving it for now until either new tech emerges or I have an epiphany.
Note, if anyone wants to pick it up and continue working on it, feel free to!
Quote
2. Possible way to create high power laser in small package. Armor piercing capacity depends on what it is up against. Good idea for creating cutting laser level power in rifle size though.
Great idea. So, what is the highest power we could cram into a laser or gauss rifle sized package using a blueshard battery? Assume only a few shots (3-5 or so) and that it works in pulses.
Same question, but for a pistol sized weapon. Same parameters orherwise.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 21, 2015, 02:27:11 pm
I mean, could I do something like create a ship out of hexsand specifically modified to absorb all radiation and emit none/very little to create a stealth craft? Because if I combined a ship like that with a gravity/vector automanipulator based propulsion system, it would be virtually undetectable. You'd need to use the same method they use for finding black holes to find it (searching for missing/curved light or unnatural gravity). Would a "black hole" ship like that be possible?
Post by: piecewise on February 23, 2015, 01:27:41 pm
Cat Righting Reflex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_righting_reflex), for example (provided the body has the prerequisite flexibility - likely possible only with a specificly designed robobody, but still); and other cases where animlas have superior (to untrained humans) reaction time, agility, and so on.External methods of boosting the capacities of people eh? We've got something for that coming out soon, thanks to ARESTEVE. It's very good but situational. We're gonna install them in Joker Team when they get back.
Basically, I'm looking for a way to externally boost the Dex stat of the user. Since it's all too often limited by the mental ability of the user to be agile, rather than actual rigidity, sluggishness and inflexibility of the body (especially in the case of robo-bodies), then maybe a 'mentally-proficient' co-pilot could help with that?
Or, if the animals feature all to different and in-adaptable physiology, perhaps a less-than-intelligent proper piece of a well-trained human's brain could suffice? Since it's not about proper thinking or decision-making (or whatever makes pristine brain-meat efficient at space magic and other things), maybe it could even be cloned or bioforge-printed.
Depends on two things 1. what is the size limit you have on the shard and 2. Does the rifle have to survive the shooting? A "Burner" rifle can be much more powerful.QuoteThe "Stick it in a jam jar and throw it at them" approach eh? Unfortunately there's a lot of very specific things this particular jam jar has to do. Has to hold the plasma, has to "break" in just the right way, has to be aerodynamic enough not to fly like a one winged turkey, has to be a reasonable size...I can't see it being reasonable with our current tech level.
Yeah, was afraid of that. Kay then, shelving it for now until either new tech emerges or I have an epiphany.
Note, if anyone wants to pick it up and continue working on it, feel free to!Quote2. Possible way to create high power laser in small package. Armor piercing capacity depends on what it is up against. Good idea for creating cutting laser level power in rifle size though.
Great idea. So, what is the highest power we could cram into a laser or gauss rifle sized package using a blueshard battery? Assume only a few shots (3-5 or so) and that it works in pulses.
Same question, but for a pistol sized weapon. Same parameters orherwise.
How exactly does hexsand "eat" heat and energy? Does it cause heat to disappear entirely or does it simply radiate very little over a very long time?For all intents and purposes, it does it via magic. And it just eats it.
I mean, could I do something like create a ship out of hexsand specifically modified to absorb all radiation and emit none/very little to create a stealth craft? Because if I combined a ship like that with a gravity/vector automanipulator based propulsion system, it would be virtually undetectable. You'd need to use the same method they use for finding black holes to find it (searching for missing/curved light or unnatural gravity). Would a "black hole" ship like that be possible?
You could coat a ship in hexsand and yes, it would absorb all light, radiation and electromagnetic spectrum waves. Which would make it pretty stealthy, assuming it's not using it's engines and throwing out a giant heat signature.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 23, 2015, 04:30:21 pm
Quote
So, what is the highest power we could cram into a laser or gauss rifle sized package using a blueshard battery? Assume only a few shots (3-5 or so) and that it works in pulses.
Same question, but for a pistol sized weapon. Same parameters otherwise.QuoteDepends on two things 1. what is the size limit you have on the shard and 2. Does the rifle have to survive the shooting? A "Burner" rifle can be much more powerful.
I'd like to know for the following four designs please:
1) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed, blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip (and maybe partly protruding into body, depending on how much space is needed for optics and whatnot). 5 Shots, can be reloaded.
2) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed (same size as previous), blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip and partly in body. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
3) a laser rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of an assault rifle or something. 10 Shots, can be reloaded.
4) a gauss rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of a weapon that's still wieldable without an exoskeleton. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
Post by: Egan_BW on February 23, 2015, 05:07:52 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 23, 2015, 05:09:46 pm
Can I tinker if I don't have a character?
Welcome! A (former) lurker, I presume? Either way, you can always just make a character (though right now there's a little something going on) and just have him tinker all day everyday.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 23, 2015, 05:32:59 pm
Welcome! A (former) lurker, I presume? Either way, you can always just make a character (though right now there's a little something going on) and just have him tinker all day everyday.Thanks for the welcome!
I've actually been following ER from mission one, been feeling like joining for awhile but haven't gotten around to it.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 23, 2015, 05:46:49 pm
Oh, and you've got 3 twice.))
Okay, take a blackship-equivelant ship. A ship that can travel to other star systems and hold a few men (let's say around 6-10), equipment for them, communication systems, some weapons, etc. Then replace its armour with hexsand in the following configuration:
(http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/parisbre56/stealth_zpsg2m8kats.png)
The red, green and blue things are hexsand. They can open and close as necessary to reveal sensors, engines, doors and whatever else needs access to the outside of the ship.
The design is simplified, assume it has whatever shape makes it easier to function. Or perhaps a shape that will allow it to fly better in atmosphere. It's not necessarily egg shaped.
With that design, only the plates that need to be opened are opened, allowing maximum protection and stealth for any given circumstance.
Finally, give the ship a self sustaining gravity or vector automanipulator or a combination of the two (whatever is the most efficient) that can be used in combination with the acceleration automanipulators (the ones used to allow the ship to accelerate to jump speed) to move the ship in stealth mode, without use of its engines. Make it at least strong enough to allow it to land on an earth-like planet without need to use engines until the ship is close to the ground. Stronger if I can get away with it.
Also make sure it has accelerometers/gravity sensors and that its flight computer is good enough to allow it to fly around without external sensor data to the best of its ability so that it can fly around while in stealth mode reasonably well.
Could we build something like that? Could our black ops teams use it? Any problems with it?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 23, 2015, 05:54:28 pm
Post by: Comrade P. on February 24, 2015, 01:16:17 pm
Post by: Nikitian on February 24, 2015, 01:20:57 pm
And what is the difference between cloning, vat-growing (like sods) and bioforge-printing a person/a brain? Are they all practically the same person, or would there be noticeable differences (or lack of differences due to much better duplicating tech) in mind, personality, thoughts, abilities, etc.?
Post by: Xantalos on February 24, 2015, 01:22:47 pm
Post by: Nikitian on February 24, 2015, 01:30:00 pm
(Especially since I strongly suspect you have a tiny bit of space god's flesh in your genes, as a base for all that fleshwarping, and thus it's not exactly bound by regular rules of cloning)
Post by: syvarris on February 24, 2015, 07:01:55 pm
Collective effort around my idea created a new weapon design. Here (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/User:Comrade_P.#Gauss-powered_Amplified_Universal_Projectile_Thrower_.28GAUPT.29) is a final and illustrated description, starting here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.msg6050506#msg6050506) was the discussion on this concept. Piecewise, have a look, please.
Just to be sure, I want to clarify one major assumption I made in that discussion. I assumed that kinetic amps run on the same stuff as manipulators, rather than electricity, because:
A.They have tiny batteries, which either draw a miniscule amount of electricity per use or store nearly as much power as a lasrifle's battery. The latter would imply lasrifle batteries are inefficiently large, and the former seems unlikely, unless electricity isn't the only power source.
B: Whether they draw 0.04 TPU, or 2 TPU, it's still a trivial power draw and completely breaks conservation of energy. To my knowledge, space magic is needed to break CoA. Also, drawing only electricity would mean that hooking up a small 1 token generator would provide infinite uses.
Post by: Xantalos on February 24, 2015, 07:06:51 pm
Well, Xan-hatching is a whole another method of producing quasi-genetically-identical creatures, I am led to believe :P((It explains all the seas of flesh I keep exploding into.))
(Especially since I strongly suspect you have a tiny bit of space god's flesh in your genes, as a base for all that fleshwarping, and thus it's not exactly bound by regular rules of cloning)
Post by: Nikitian on February 24, 2015, 07:28:23 pm
((Wait. You, of all people, don't know?Well, Xan-hatching is a whole another method of producing quasi-genetically-identical creatures, I am led to believe :P((It explains all the seas of flesh I keep exploding into.))
(Especially since I strongly suspect you have a tiny bit of space god's flesh in your genes, as a base for all that fleshwarping, and thus it's not exactly bound by regular rules of cloning)
I really cannot believe that. You must have meant that as "it would explain, hehe".
...Because otherwise we might be actually useful to each other. As partners, colleagues or something like that. Let's discuss it later IC, if both of our characters survive. ))
Post by: Xantalos on February 24, 2015, 08:15:36 pm
Yeah, if you survive I'll meet up with you at some point, either after the crisis or whenever my clone gets back from Haephestus.))
Post by: piecewise on February 25, 2015, 02:09:06 pm
1 About as powerful as a rifle.QuoteSo, what is the highest power we could cram into a laser or gauss rifle sized package using a blueshard battery? Assume only a few shots (3-5 or so) and that it works in pulses.
Same question, but for a pistol sized weapon. Same parameters otherwise.QuoteDepends on two things 1. what is the size limit you have on the shard and 2. Does the rifle have to survive the shooting? A "Burner" rifle can be much more powerful.
I'd like to know for the following four designs please:
1) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed, blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip (and maybe partly protruding into body, depending on how much space is needed for optics and whatnot). 5 Shots, can be reloaded.
2) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed (same size as previous), blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip and partly in body. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
3) a laser rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of an assault rifle or something. 10 Shots, can be reloaded.
4) a gauss rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of a weapon that's still wieldable without an exoskeleton. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
2. About twice as powerful as a cutting laser.
3. About cutting laser power, probably higher actually.
4.So propane tank sized shard strapped to a rifle. One shot with something like that is probably good enough to go straight through a battlesuit. The gun is gonna melt to molten slag in the process though.
Can I tinker if I don't have a character?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
((@RC: Try a battlesuit/exoskeleton usable one next. Or maybe a one time use gauss rifle/cannon as a sort of extreme anti-tank weapon for use against one of our own battlesuits.Looks theoretically possible and potentially useful.
Oh, and you've got 3 twice.))
Okay, take a blackship-equivelant ship. A ship that can travel to other star systems and hold a few men (let's say around 6-10), equipment for them, communication systems, some weapons, etc. Then replace its armour with hexsand in the following configuration:
(http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/parisbre56/stealth_zpsg2m8kats.png)
The red, green and blue things are hexsand. They can open and close as necessary to reveal sensors, engines, doors and whatever else needs access to the outside of the ship.
The design is simplified, assume it has whatever shape makes it easier to function. Or perhaps a shape that will allow it to fly better in atmosphere. It's not necessarily egg shaped.
With that design, only the plates that need to be opened are opened, allowing maximum protection and stealth for any given circumstance.
Finally, give the ship a self sustaining gravity or vector automanipulator or a combination of the two (whatever is the most efficient) that can be used in combination with the acceleration automanipulators (the ones used to allow the ship to accelerate to jump speed) to move the ship in stealth mode, without use of its engines. Make it at least strong enough to allow it to land on an earth-like planet without need to use engines until the ship is close to the ground. Stronger if I can get away with it.
Also make sure it has accelerometers/gravity sensors and that its flight computer is good enough to allow it to fly around without external sensor data to the best of its ability so that it can fly around while in stealth mode reasonably well.
Could we build something like that? Could our black ops teams use it? Any problems with it?
Collective effort around my idea created a new weapon design. Here (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/User:Comrade_P.#Gauss-powered_Amplified_Universal_Projectile_Thrower_.28GAUPT.29) is a final and illustrated description, starting here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.msg6050506#msg6050506) was the discussion on this concept. Piecewise, have a look, please.So lets see if I got the idea right. You have a metal thing in a chamber. This metal thing is accelerated via gauss coils into a kinetic amp. This amp amplifies the impact force, which is used to fire a bullet made of sharkmist.
Correct?
By the way, what is wrong with clones (on the observable physical/social level, without taking complicated secret space magic rules and such into consideration)? Is there, perhaps, any noticeable degradation of intelligence? Can wetware AIs be made of cloned brains?Cloning a single individual through one iteration is fine. We use that crap for sods, after all. The problem is when you start having clones of clones. There are degenerative effects. Especially when you start increasing their maturation rate so they're actually useful.
And what is the difference between cloning, vat-growing (like sods) and bioforge-printing a person/a brain? Are they all practically the same person, or would there be noticeable differences (or lack of differences due to much better duplicating tech) in mind, personality, thoughts, abilities, etc.?
Well, bioforge doesn't "Grow" things. It prints them on a molecular level. One is a biological process, the other is advanced 3d printing.
Post by: Comrade P. on February 25, 2015, 02:17:13 pm
So lets see if I got the idea right. You have a metal thing in a chamber. This metal thing is accelerated via gauss coils into a kinetic amp. This amp amplifies the impact force, which is used to fire a bullet made of sharkmist.
Correct?
Yep, pretty much correct. Except maybe the amp is attached to the metal thing and moves as well.
Spoiler: Here's a sketch by Sean Mirrsen for mechanism part (click to show/hide)
Post by: Nikitian on February 25, 2015, 03:06:36 pm
Oh, I am sure it's our GM's way of saying "Welcome! Sure you can." He's probably off making a feast to celebrate you finally joining us here, even if only in this timid and non-corporeal way!Can I tinker if I don't have a character?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
On cloning: Let's see, and if we specifically introduce some slight genetic variation somehow, would that preserve the stock? Also, what if we had a couple of clones (either of different people, or... you know) reproduce the old-fashioned way, would the resulting child be effectively 'reset' as far as genetic degradation goes? Or would the accumulated degenerative issues of the parents make him just as sub-par material?
By the way, can sods reproduce with regular humans? Also, are there only male sods? If not, can sods have sod children?
How long do the sods live? Aren't the (fleshy) sods currently stationed on Hephaestus going to die of old age before they ever see any engagement? Or are they kept in stasis pods most of the time?
Generally, what is the life expectancy of an unmodified human today, provided the medi-tech (non-Doctorial) we have on the Sword? What else can be done to prolong life (in fleshy body; once again, without Doctor's intervention)?
What is the life expectancy of braincase-bound people, and what can be done to prolong that?
(I know of "a couple hundred years", I am interested in a little bit more specific statistics and maybe a couple of well-known boundary cases)
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 25, 2015, 03:31:19 pm
Okay then, final check. How plausible are limpet probes? By that I mean small probes that attach themselves to other ships to make their way through jump points undetected.
Related question: even the hexsand ship I previously described would emit radiation when jumping through a jump point, correct?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 25, 2015, 05:14:27 pm
Quote
I'd like to know for the following four designs please:
1) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed, blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip (and maybe partly protruding into body, depending on how much space is needed for optics and whatnot). 5 Shots, can be reloaded.
2) a pistol that still can be fired one-handed (same size as previous), blueshard size so that it still fits into one hand comfortably and isn't too heavy to get a decent shot off. Shard would be in the grip and partly in body. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
3) a laser rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of an assault rifle or something. 10 Shots, can be reloaded.
4) a gauss rifle sized weapon, shard a big as can fit into a stock or magazine size of a weapon that's still wieldable without an exoskeleton. 1 Shot, needs no reload (aka is destroyed after use).
And what about the cost for these? I'd like to know for both the base item, and the ammo.
And if we made a battlesuit/cutting laser variant of both the 5 shot reusable and 1 shot discardable, what kind of power (and cost) are we looking at then?
Finally, would a tiny shard inside something that looks like a pen work as a black ops assassination/covert weapon?
Post by: Egan_BW on February 25, 2015, 08:42:19 pm
I'll take that as a yes. (given you didn't say no.)Can I tinker if I don't have a character?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
Can the HEP fire even more powerful shots if we give it more power? (from say, a great big BlueRad chunk.)
This is with the goal of inventing, using unknown, alien technology, an absurdly destructive single-shot, anti-armer, rocket-launcher-shaped weapon that melts into slag as soon as it's fired, as well as both igniting and irradiating everything nearby.
Post by: piecewise on February 26, 2015, 02:05:13 am
Do you know about the Council of people I keep to advise me on matters of gameplay? Well, I've had two of them warn me about the precedent of a non-player using tinker. And about how that might mean other people would want to start using tinker. And then I'd have to start purging things with fire.I'll take that as a yes. (given you didn't say no.)Can I tinker if I don't have a character?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
Can the HEP fire even more powerful shots if we give it more power? (from say, a great big BlueRad chunk.)
This is with the goal of inventing, using unknown, alien technology, an absurdly destructive single-shot, anti-armer, rocket-launcher-shaped weapon that melts into slag as soon as it's fired, as well as both igniting and irradiating everything nearby.
So I don't mind you posting here, talking to people, giving them ideas for stuff to do, etc. But I'm not gonna accept any actions unless you're actually in the game.
Post by: Xantalos on February 26, 2015, 02:07:29 am
Post by: piecewise on February 26, 2015, 02:43:34 am
How about they can design weapons or whatever, but they can't actually implement them until they make a character. And then they have to wait an equivalent amount of time they spent tinkering without a character in order to implement the idea?Because tinker makes me want to break knees
Post by: Xantalos on February 26, 2015, 02:46:56 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 26, 2015, 10:20:11 am
Post by: Comrade P. on March 03, 2015, 01:33:25 pm
Is this even functional? If it is, what would be the closest equivalent in firepower?
Post by: NAV on March 21, 2015, 01:39:32 pm
Body: Broken heat gun
Some locker doors if necessary
Power source: Gasoline generator (4+ TPU?)
Heat gun battery pack (?? TPU)
2 MK1 power sources (?? TPU)
Assorted batteries (?? TPU)
I will add more to the gun as I get them.
I would like to know how many TPUs this is. More is better.
Barrel(s): 5 salvaged cutting lasers. I would like to know if there is any way to combine these into a more powerful laser, or should I just have lots of barrels?
I still need lenses for the cutting lasers, but I can buy those at the armoury.
Post by: Parisbre56 on March 21, 2015, 01:47:49 pm
Post by: NAV on March 21, 2015, 02:16:34 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: tryrar on March 21, 2015, 02:18:25 pm
First, spawn a battlesuit and see how big an explosion it can tank before being disabled-I'm not talking outright destruction, but at what point will things like joints and internal components start bending and failing, preventing the battlesuit from being combat effective.
With the above data, could that force be delivered with something approaching a man-portable weapon? (I was thinking a thermobaric weapon, given the ridiculous energy densities ER fuels have)
Next, take the principles of magnetohydrodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics) and pinching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_%28plasma_physics%29) to create a new, better type of HEAT warhead(it's supposed to be better and more accurate than conventional explosively formed penetrators). See if it can also be mounted in a man-portable system-I don't expect it to take on battlesuits(though that would be nice), but anything short should be fair game.
Post by: Dutrius on March 23, 2015, 12:24:35 pm
Post by: Doomblade187 on March 25, 2015, 08:50:59 pm
ptw. I might do something here later.Piecewise loves more people tinkering, as we all know. Don't worry, Piecewise, my character has a very low handicraft, so he's unlikely to be Denzel and try to build particle cannons.
Post by: Nikitian on March 29, 2015, 09:03:30 am
Hook generator up to the cutting laser, and see if it will allow continous fire.Well, if that generator of yours puts out at least 8 tpu of continuous power *which 4 gauss generators won't do* then yeah, it will work. But you've never really said what the specifics of that generator are so...yeah.
So it appears that there might be burst-type generators and flow-type, with the latter being more rare and expensive; for example, it seems reasonable that the 'cheap low-power generator' (which is somehow still ~~5 tokens, IIRC, while being only 5 TPU) strapped to the HEP device is of the latter category as well.((So, the TPUs don't add up linearly? Or is it about the yet unknown gauss rifle power generators' specifications that prevent them from maintaining the continious output? ))(They release in bursts and spurts of energy rather then a nice continuous flow. You'd have it basically strobing at very high speeds.)
Post by: tryrar on March 29, 2015, 10:38:43 pm
"Kugelblitz" portable guided missile launcher
Token cost:shoot for 10-12 tokens; missiles should be 2 tokens(3 for nukes)
Stat requirement:+1 str
Description:The Kugelblitz is a man-portable guided missile launcher firing 152mm guided missiles. It has a base unit that connects to a missile tube and provides command and control, and each missile is prepackaged into a disposable tube. Each missile comes with a semi-active radar homing package and a manual laser guidance mode, and comes in three distinct warheads: HE, MAHEM (magneto-hydrodynamic HEAT), and namite incendiary, with optional 1/8th kiloton warheads for when HE just isn't enough.(The base unit comes with a single HE missile, reloads extra)
Comments welcome
Post by: PyroDesu on March 30, 2015, 10:40:40 am
Per PW, here's the stat line for my Kugelblitz guided missile launcher for evaluation:
"Kugelblitz" portable guided missile launcher
Token cost:shoot for 10-12 tokens; missiles should be 2 tokens(3 for nukes)
Stat requirement:+1 str
Description:The Kugelblitz is a man-portable guided missile launcher firing 152mm guided missiles. It has a base unit that connects to a missile tube and provides command and control, and each missile is prepackaged into a disposable tube. Each missile comes with a semi-active radar homing package and a manual laser guidance mode, and comes in three distinct warheads: HE, MAHEM (magneto-hydrodynamic HEAT), and namite incendiary, with optional 1/8th kiloton warheads for when HE just isn't enough.(The base unit comes with a single HE missile, reloads extra)
Comments welcome
Got anything more than a statline? I (and it is me, after me it's PW and the Council) can't really make a determination about something from just a statline, you're going to have to tell me how things are working here.
Also, 152mm is going to be bigger than this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Army-fgm148.jpg/300px-Army-fgm148.jpg)
Javelin missile (and launcher and crew). Missile caliber is 127mm
That's not single-man portable, even with an exoskeleton - it's just way too bulky (weight isn't as much of an issue as bulk). Especially if you think people are going to have multiple rockets on them.
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 02:50:40 pm
Per PW, here's the stat line for my Kugelblitz guided missile launcher for evaluation:
"Kugelblitz" portable guided missile launcher
Token cost:shoot for 10-12 tokens; missiles should be 2 tokens(3 for nukes)
Stat requirement:+1 str
Description:The Kugelblitz is a man-portable guided missile launcher firing 152mm guided missiles. It has a base unit that connects to a missile tube and provides command and control, and each missile is prepackaged into a disposable tube. Each missile comes with a semi-active radar homing package and a manual laser guidance mode, and comes in three distinct warheads: HE, MAHEM (magneto-hydrodynamic HEAT), and namite incendiary, with optional 1/8th kiloton warheads for when HE just isn't enough.(The base unit comes with a single HE missile, reloads extra)
Comments welcome
Got anything more than a statline? I (and it is me, after me it's PW and the Council) can't really make a determination about something from just a statline, you're going to have to tell me how things are working here.
Also, 152mm is going to be bigger than this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Army-fgm148.jpg/300px-Army-fgm148.jpg)
Javelin missile (and launcher and crew). Missile caliber is 127mm
That's not single-man portable, even with an exoskeleton - it's just way too bulky (weight isn't as much of an issue as bulk). Especially if you think people are going to have multiple rockets on them.
Huh, looking online and you may be on to something. How about something like a 100mm? That's only 12mm bigger than a Panzerschrek, which I know was able to be carted around by a single person(not easily, but it was done). Hmm, with the smaller caliber, I just had the idea to decrease carry bulk by having the barrel telescope and fold up when not in use, creating a more compact unit to hang off a harness. This does mean abandoning the Javelin analogue idea, but on the plus side reloads are easier to carry since it's the actual missile clipped to your belt rather than a bulky entire tube. I think I'll simply copy the Stinger body for this.
Any other info you need? Performance wise, HE should be comparable(and even better) than that 50mm grenade launcher you created(two building fronts instead of one :P) and HEAT should be able to take down anything short of a battlesuit, and probably damage one pretty well anyways. Oh, and the capability to launch nuke rounds safely. The missile itself also uses a MPD thruster powered by a radite battery instead of normal volitiles, and has adjustable popout flight fins. Oh, probably important, I was thinking something like the missile itself is around 1.5 meters long, with about 40% of that warhead.
Post by: Toaster on March 30, 2015, 02:53:10 pm
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 03:05:58 pm
It's probably awkward to carry around a (single) missile that's almost as tall as you are.
Here's a little trivia for you: Yo know the stinger, that MANPAD you always see single guys lugging around? the missile is 5 feet long by itself.
...you know, that does raise a good issue. Any missile launcher we design is going to have big, long missiles if we don't want the range to be measured in meters instead of kilometers(and essentially turning it into a bigger, differently powered grenade launcher). If I up the price a little, I might be avble to include something like a simple tracked robocrawler that's just big enough to carry a useful amount of reloads(and leaves the user only having to cart around the launcher itself)
Post by: Parisbre56 on March 30, 2015, 03:16:57 pm
On the other hand, I don't see why walking around with a giant missile in an exoskeleton would be a problem. Those things carry and fire Heavy Gauss Cannons.
I've been dual wielding an alien death beam and a human death beam ripped out of a vehichle (along with its battery) with a battlesuit that's not that much larger or stronger than an exoskeleton.
In my first mission I dual wielded the same cutting laser ripped out of a vehichle along with a giant pneumatic spike used to create giant holes while using a simple mining exoskeleton.
Neither size nor weight is really that much of a problem.
Not so sure about the utility though. Why is the tube so expensive? Isn't it just a tube? Or does it have some advanced features? Can you pilot the projectile usng Aux, for example? Is it something like an autohit for armoured targets? Does being guided offer any utility or bonuses gameplay-wise? Is that enough to justify the cost?
And if not, then how is this better than a Sibilus or some other heavy rifle or even a heavy gauss cannon which has the same price and probably does about the same damage or more? Does it do enough damage to justify the price? Can it be loaded with more powerful or more versatile ammo?
Post by: Toaster on March 30, 2015, 03:27:22 pm
with a battlesuit that's not that much larger or stronger than an exoskeleton.
You might be underestimating its strength, since battlesuit beats synthflesh beats exoskeleton.
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 03:40:44 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 30, 2015, 03:45:41 pm
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 03:53:05 pm
A Gauss machine gun that requires bipod deployment (or anchoring via included mount) to allow firing without a STR requirement, and exoskeleton otherwise?
Last time I tried a machine gun, you got the Jackhammer :P
Seriously though, I know missile launchers are bulky, but they do fill a niche we don't have for cheap guided munitions. A FIM-92 Stinger weighs only 33 pounds(and most of that is the missile itself!) and is served by a crew of one. It shouldn't be hard to create something comparable, but even better due to futuretech. Hell, if we straight up create a Stinger clone, I bet I could do if for very cheap and create a packaged robodonkey for reloads.
Post by: Hapah on March 30, 2015, 03:55:45 pm
Post by: Nikitian on March 30, 2015, 03:56:30 pm
And I'd rather not shoot for anything baseline-human-portable, since it would hamper the idea more than bring any good - and only with an exoskeleton, perhaps, the length/bulkiness of the missiles (very real problem, I'll assure you) might not be a problem anymore.
Edit: Oh, you came to the idea yourself! :P Also, don't, don't, don't mention robodonkeys. Sean is nearby.
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 03:57:00 pm
I don't know that creating additional entities for PW to keep track of is the best route.
? Not sure I understand the question
Edit:Yeah, a 100mm stinger clone with infrared/radar guidance should come out at 6 at the most. Combined with 2 token missiles(which was my original price) then you have a very effective sorta cheap weapon system. I guess I was making things too complicated by going for a Javelin equivilant :P
Post by: Hapah on March 30, 2015, 04:05:41 pm
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 04:12:33 pm
Was referring to the missile donkey cart thing.
oh :P. I think I'm changing the str req, so that's not an issue anymore
Post by: tryrar on March 30, 2015, 04:53:23 pm
Kugelblitz guided missile launcher
Stat req:exoskeleton str, aux +0
Cost:6 credits for the launcher, 2 per missile(4 for nuclear rounds). Launcher comes with missile
The Kugelblitz is a 100mm, 1.5 meters long missile launcher with an offset firing tube attached to a scope and guidance package the user holds(think Stinger, but slightly bigger). Missiles are radar guided by default, and come with a backup laser guidance system for when that isn't practical, applicable. Missiles come in standard HE, HEAT, and incendiary, and have optional 1/8th kiloton nuclear warheads.
Edit: Posting a reminder for RC for the council to look at this.
Post by: syvarris on March 30, 2015, 11:33:49 pm
Is it supposed to be a payload delivered which is cheaper than a gauss cannon? That's the only role I can see it having. Anti-armor is too... adverse to our token system. A single-shot weapon that can kill an armored target is generally only half the price of a multi-shot weapon, at best.
@Paris
I think you underestimate the size of a battlesuit. The armor alone is twenty inches thick, and essentially completely surrounds the pilot; a battlesuit is really more akin to a vertical tank than a suit of power armor.
Post by: tryrar on March 31, 2015, 12:03:32 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on March 31, 2015, 12:42:06 am
I just used the battlesuit to compare it to the mining exoskeleton, which is just an exoskeleton with a layer of armour. And I used those two to show the power and capacity to lift of robotic strength enhancements.
Like comparing a bike to a car. You can say that a car, while larger than a bike, is not that much larger. And you can carry something large and heavy with either.
Post by: Hapah on March 31, 2015, 12:45:09 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on March 31, 2015, 04:55:47 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 31, 2015, 11:10:00 am
@ tryar: council idea is that 2-3 tokens for the launcher is alright, and that the price of the missiles and stat requirements is ok as well. Anything else?
Post by: tryrar on March 31, 2015, 04:05:03 pm
@ tryar: council idea is that 2-3 tokens for the launcher is alright, and that the price of the missiles and stat requirements is ok as well. Anything else?
Well, the only other thing I can think of is getting a prototype done, because that's just about everything I can think of(it's not a complicated weapon, just a tube and guidance)
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on March 31, 2015, 09:41:41 pm
If the amplifier is itself a small, salvageable component, then I will probably try my hand at tinkering.
Also, any info on the glove material- how bulky it is, whether it stretches, etc.- would be pretty useful.
Post by: Xantalos on March 31, 2015, 09:43:30 pm
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on March 31, 2015, 09:55:30 pm
The glove is just a thing the person wears, the actual kinetic amplifier is the postage stamp thing. It's been used in other things, like clubs studded with them and stuff.
That's sort of what I have in mind.... But with a Gauss slug, instead of a club.
Post by: Xantalos on March 31, 2015, 09:57:17 pm
Post by: tryrar on March 31, 2015, 09:57:51 pm
The glove is just a thing the person wears, the actual kinetic amplifier is the postage stamp thing. It's been used in other things, like clubs studded with them and stuff.
That's sort of what I have in mind. Except with a Gauss slug, instead of a club.
Done before :P basically, it turns the impact into a wider area shockwave that has a 10x force multiplier. We've tried using kinamps in warheads, with spikes, and just about everything you can think of. Most things have come back not very practical due to the cost of kinamps and danger to the wielder of in a melee weapon
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 31, 2015, 11:48:16 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on April 01, 2015, 12:59:22 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 01, 2015, 02:58:15 am
Random thought while playing CoD:AW for you tinker people. Have any of your thought about making a laser LMG using the blueradite as the shells/ammo? Make it belt fed and you'd have a decently strong squad support weaponWhile there are, as discussed earlier, certain benefits to a pulse-firing laser, there's almost no point in bothering with an "automatic weapon" that uses small disposable shells, if a single bigger shard can replace a whole belt of them with no moving parts involved. Unless you're planning a whole line of "energy firearms" that could use interchangeable ammo like that, I guess.
Post by: renegadelobster on April 01, 2015, 03:17:32 am
Post by: Comrade P. on April 01, 2015, 12:35:41 pm
Random thought while playing CoD:AW for you tinker people. Have any of your thought about making a laser LMG using the blueradite as the shells/ammo? Make it belt fed and you'd have a decently strong squad support weaponWhile there are, as discussed earlier, certain benefits to a pulse-firing laser, there's almost no point in bothering with an "automatic weapon" that uses small disposable shells, if a single bigger shard can replace a whole belt of them with no moving parts involved. Unless you're planning a whole line of "energy firearms" that could use interchangeable ammo like that, I guess.
I'll get this out of my system: I want a blueradite revolver. If I'll live long enough, I'll get one.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 01, 2015, 03:19:26 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on April 01, 2015, 03:28:09 pm
Post by: syvarris on April 01, 2015, 03:46:44 pm
Also, Sean, weren't Hammerheads nine tokens each? They were effective, but far, far too expensive to be practical.
Post by: Comrade P. on April 01, 2015, 03:56:12 pm
Why would you make a blurad handgun a revolver? There's no real benefit to it.
Have you considered Russian roulette and gambling possibilities? Also ease of loading possible specialised ammo.
Post by: syvarris on April 01, 2015, 04:08:43 pm
Also, what type of specialized ammo would a laser pistol have?
Post by: Comrade P. on April 01, 2015, 04:16:18 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 01, 2015, 04:19:38 pm
And games have taught us that revolvers are super powerful compared to pistols but have rare bullets. (See Half-life)
Post by: Hapah on April 01, 2015, 04:22:27 pm
Because movies have taught us oversized revolvers are cool and it would not change the price.It is known.
And games have taught us that revolvers are super powerful compared to pistols but have rare bullets. (See Half-life)
Post by: Nikitian on April 01, 2015, 04:39:13 pm
It's a sort of gambling, only one where losers aren't sad for losing. Humane, in a way.
Post by: Comrade P. on April 01, 2015, 11:44:50 pm
Also, I can really see us playing Russian Roulette with the survivors (victors) specifically designated by game rules as heirs to the deceased; maybe with a minor token penalty to those wounded by not killed. Then depending on if someone died, either everyone lives, or some live and get rich, while others either lose yet survive with a small payment, or lose and die permanently and don't need neither tokens nor equipment anymore.
It's a sort of gambling, only one where losers aren't sad for losing. Humane, in a way.
Basically, gambling-driven redistribution of tokens in favor of those with higher toughness or fate score.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 02, 2015, 12:52:01 am
Also, Sean, weren't Hammerheads nine tokens each? They were effective, but far, far too expensive to be practical.Six tokens for the kinamp sandwich, two for the rest of the missile. With bulk production we can shrink the cost down to six total, maybe five.
Post by: Empiricist on April 02, 2015, 05:04:41 am
I don't think designing our guns specifically to facilitate our soldiers shooting themselves is a wise idea.Sigged.
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 08:39:43 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 02, 2015, 09:28:40 am
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.That would be my doing, and no, I never actually made them, just put them forward as an idea.
Basically they'd be an offshoot of the Plasma Stake weapon, multiplied by the inverse Kzinti Lesson. Take a bluerad cell, a plasma projector chamber with a solid material core, and set it to a slow burn. Instead of plasmarizing and expelling the entire core at once (as the Plasma Stake does), the core would plasmarize gradually, and be accelerated out of the nozzle at high velocity - essentially a MagnetoPlasmaDynamic thruster with ER-tech materials and an alien power source.
I haven't so much as started preliminary research on those though. :P I was planning to use them for the rocket pods of the ATX series Assault Mechsuits. Way further down the line.
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 09:37:09 am
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.That would be my doing, and no, I never actually made them, just put them forward as an idea.
Basically they'd be an offshoot of the Plasma Stake weapon, multiplied by the inverse Kzinti Lesson. Take a bluerad cell, a plasma projector chamber with a solid material core, and set it to a slow burn. Instead of plasmarizing and expelling the entire core at once (as the Plasma Stake does), the core would plasmarize gradually, and be accelerated out of the nozzle at high velocity - essentially a MagnetoPlasmaDynamic thruster with ER-tech materials and an alien power source.
I haven't so much as started preliminary research on those though. :P I was planning to use them for the rocket pods of the ATX series Assault Mechsuits. Way further down the line.
That sounds like it would take the cost of individual rockets so far out of feasibility that there's no chance anyone will get to use it. It's a great idea, but not cheap.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on April 02, 2015, 09:44:18 am
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 09:54:16 am
Hold on, if I'm getting this right (And I most certainly am not) You mean to use a small shard of Bludarite to output enough energy to Plasma-ise a solid material gradually, then that plasma is accelerated out through the nozzle?
More like feed a small shard of bluraditite or whatever it is to the manipulator in a plasma cannon modified to slowly plasmarize the feed material, then accelerate that plasma out the nozzle (magnetic nozzle generated by the same plasma cannon innards, I bet). Watch out for backblast, because of the Kzinti lesson - plasma exhaust would be very... unpleasant to be bathed in.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 02, 2015, 09:55:42 am
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 09:57:40 am
I did research on plasma weapons a while back, in case you wanna pursue this line of research. The results were... Less than promising though.
Not plasma weapons, just plasma motors. We know they work (magnetoplasmadynamic thrusters are a thing in reality), but I think Sean's method sounds hilariously expensive (and may not even work - depends on how he modified the manipulator for the magnetic nozzle).
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 02, 2015, 10:02:28 am
By the way, any of the hepheads that would particularly like to work on the teleporter gun that's coming in?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 02, 2015, 10:57:19 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 02, 2015, 11:04:10 am
Post by: tryrar on April 02, 2015, 05:08:07 pm
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.
oh, yeah. That idea sounded cooler at 5 am than it really is, as you pointed out. Standard liquid fuel rockets(using ER verse better fuels) should still get the range I want
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 05:26:35 pm
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.
oh, yeah. That idea sounded cooler at 5 am than it really is, as you pointed out. Standard liquid fuel rockets(using ER verse better fuels) should still get the range I want
Missiles like that typically use solid rocket motors, and for a reason. Liquid fuels have issues, even ER-verse ones. They have a bit lower performance, but are much more predictable, stable, and so, so much cheaper (I've been assuming that solid rockets were the idea since the start, with that low missile price).
Post by: tryrar on April 02, 2015, 05:32:23 pm
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.
oh, yeah. That idea sounded cooler at 5 am than it really is, as you pointed out. Standard liquid fuel rockets(using ER verse better fuels) should still get the range I want
Missiles like that typically use solid rocket motors, and for a reason. Liquid fuels have issues, even ER-verse ones. They have a bit lower performance, but are much more predictable, stable, and so, so much cheaper (I've been assuming that solid rockets were the idea since the start, with that low missile price).
Point. so solid fueled rockets then(even then should have good range)
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 07:59:10 pm
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.
oh, yeah. That idea sounded cooler at 5 am than it really is, as you pointed out. Standard liquid fuel rockets(using ER verse better fuels) should still get the range I want
Missiles like that typically use solid rocket motors, and for a reason. Liquid fuels have issues, even ER-verse ones. They have a bit lower performance, but are much more predictable, stable, and so, so much cheaper (I've been assuming that solid rockets were the idea since the start, with that low missile price).
Point. so solid fueled rockets then(even then should have good range)
Well, the Stinger has an effective range of about 4.8km, so between 5 and 6 might be reasonable (this is, after all, the future!). Would vary dependent on warhead (nuclear warheads will reduce the range, call it 4km).
Post by: tryrar on April 02, 2015, 08:01:58 pm
Oi, Tyrar. Where exactly did 'plasma thrusters' come up? As far as I can tell you've never mentioned how these rockets actually work.
oh, yeah. That idea sounded cooler at 5 am than it really is, as you pointed out. Standard liquid fuel rockets(using ER verse better fuels) should still get the range I want
Missiles like that typically use solid rocket motors, and for a reason. Liquid fuels have issues, even ER-verse ones. They have a bit lower performance, but are much more predictable, stable, and so, so much cheaper (I've been assuming that solid rockets were the idea since the start, with that low missile price).
Point. so solid fueled rockets then(even then should have good range)
Well, the Stinger has an effective range of about 4.8km, so between 5 and 6 might be reasonable (this is, after all, the future!). Would vary dependent on warhead (nuclear warheads will reduce the range, call it 4km).
Still outside the range of a 1/8th kiloton's kill radius(even for the dangerous radiation!), but as you pointed, out, need to remeber to design as if the most braindead person on the team would be operating it. As Steve said "Assume your teammates are utter morons who'll accidentally kill you if you trust them with anything more deadly than a spoon. A dull spoon."
Post by: syvarris on April 02, 2015, 08:28:41 pm
We practically never fight anywhere that a 6 km range is useful anyway. It might be realistic, but it's not necessary for us. Cheapness, however, is.
Post by: tryrar on April 02, 2015, 08:33:37 pm
Why does it need such a large range? That's just gonna make ammo more expensive. 1.5 km would be fine, even for a 1/8 kiloton, considering even our basic suits have radiation shielding and are resistant to light fragments.
We practically never fight anywhere that a 6 km range is useful anyway. It might be realistic, but it's not necessary for us. Cheapness, however, is.
The launcher already is just a couple tokens(plus an exoskeleton), so 2 tokens for missiles isn't THAT much. Suggestions though for cheapening things are always welcome(maybe smaller missiles wouldn't be out of the question).
I just don't want to bug PW with exact measurements on things like range values for missile sizes, since he's stated he really hates that and would rather ballpark it. If we can get 1 token missiles by make them smaller and shorter ranged, cool. if making shorter missiles doesn't affect the price, then well...
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 02, 2015, 08:40:49 pm
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 08:47:39 pm
Long range could be useful for sod forces, especially if they had to fight something large, like an Avatar of War or Titan. Although I guess at that point using a Gauss Cannon or a LESHO would be better against the space magic armour of sythflesh, since it could probably embed itself into the enemy's synthflesh and cause more damage that way, like a firework exploding in your closed hand.
To the bolded bit, gauss cannon and LESHO ain't doing anything, as far as I understand it. That's the point when you get Steve to work his kinetic magic from orbit.
And ty, I bet we could convince them to reduce the price if we go with a 0.75-1m missile. That'd probably put maximum range at around 3-4km, which is still far more than we really need.
Post by: syvarris on April 02, 2015, 09:06:01 pm
Considering the fact that a 1/8 kt nuke is already two tokens, you probably won't be able to get a missile version for the same price.
It might not matter due to the pricing mechanics, but have you considered redesigning the launcher to use some initial gauss acceleration, as Sean suggested? It would eliminate backblast, and possibly cheapen the missiles.
@Paris
It's sorta my hope that this thing can completely replace gauss cannons, so 'this is a problem but you would use a gauss cannon instead anyway' is an issue. Hopefully, the ability to penetrate into an AoW's flesh would be countered by the fact this thing fires nuke rounds twice as powerful.
Post by: tryrar on April 02, 2015, 10:01:55 pm
@Tryrar
Considering the fact that a 1/8 kt nuke is already two tokens, you probably won't be able to get a missile version for the same price.
It might not matter due to the pricing mechanics, but have you considered redesigning the launcher to use some initial gauss acceleration, as Sean suggested? It would eliminate backblast, and possibly cheapen the missiles.
@Paris
It's sorta my hope that this thing can completely replace gauss cannons, so 'this is a problem but you would use a gauss cannon instead anyway' is an issue. Hopefully, the ability to penetrate into an AoW's flesh would be countered by the fact this thing fires nuke rounds twice as powerful.
I've already considered it, and I guess we can go for it then. we might be able to get away with .5 meter missiles then, which makes carrying reloads even easier. I can do the redesin, but I guess we should do this IC in the hep thread?
Post by: PyroDesu on April 02, 2015, 10:27:45 pm
@Tryrar
Considering the fact that a 1/8 kt nuke is already two tokens, you probably won't be able to get a missile version for the same price.
It might not matter due to the pricing mechanics, but have you considered redesigning the launcher to use some initial gauss acceleration, as Sean suggested? It would eliminate backblast, and possibly cheapen the missiles.
@Paris
It's sorta my hope that this thing can completely replace gauss cannons, so 'this is a problem but you would use a gauss cannon instead anyway' is an issue. Hopefully, the ability to penetrate into an AoW's flesh would be countered by the fact this thing fires nuke rounds twice as powerful.
I've already considered it, and I guess we can go for it then. we might be able to get away with .5 meter missiles then, which makes carrying reloads even easier. I can do the redesin, but I guess we should do this IC in the hep thread?
Nah, Simus is good if you just send a redesign. She'll see that some of the issues have been changed and modify her opinion accordingly.
And, of course, she's the one you want to really seek acceptance from. Prototyping and stocking are her purview.
Post by: tryrar on April 03, 2015, 08:41:44 pm
Post by: Xantalos on April 03, 2015, 08:53:24 pm
Post by: tryrar on April 03, 2015, 08:57:34 pm
So you wanted to put weapons on the ARSC?
I think you're misreading the size and point of an ASRC :P. An ASRC is about the size of a bunker and can fit 5 people, and is designed to plow straight through buildings. the scout pod idea I have is just big enough for one person, and while it can take impacts plowing through a building tends to be a bad idea :P
Post by: tryrar on April 04, 2015, 12:36:54 am
Dragon 70 MLRS
Stat Reqs:con+2, battlesuit or vehicle only
Price:shooting for 3-4 here, including rockets
Description: The Dragon MLRS is simply a cylindrical box attached magnetically to the battlesuit or vehicle in question, and carries 12 70mmx120cm solid-fueled HE rockets that are fired in a devastating barrage. The launcher communicates to the vehicle VIA very short ranged radio, is is pretty much disposable and detached after all rockets are expended.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 04, 2015, 04:05:27 am
Post by: tryrar on April 04, 2015, 04:23:46 am
Quick question: do you intend to finish these new projects before the mission starts? We already have a crapton of prototypes to test, and we might wanna save some for next batch. That, and I'm trying to keep a move on on the planning so we can start asap. Will put it before council regardless.
Missile launcher yes. Dragon MLRS no(need some else besides Paris to own a battlesuit for that one anyways. Come to think of it why hasn't anyone else besides you ever bought a battlesuit?). The others are just some random musings I might finish later(hint, anything I give an actual name to I'm actually serious about, well besides the Warhammer. That's just for coolness sake :P)
Edit: Reminds me, I've made a couple modifications to the Kugelblitz based off Pyro's feedback. I've added a low-power gauss launch system to the launcher, and cut the missile lengths in half(to 75cm instead of 1.5m), in an effort to reduce ammo costs and allow more reloads to be carried. Need price changes vetted
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 04, 2015, 04:30:24 am
Post by: tryrar on April 04, 2015, 04:39:04 am
Then I need a full description to persent. Also, if possible, try to wait with proposing to council until a design is mostly finished please. NO much fun discussing the same thing thrice.
Sorry :-[ just that Pyro made some pretty good suggestions, and since he's in charge of prototyping....
Anyways,
Kugelblitz GML(revised)
Stat reqs: Exoskeleton STR and +0 aux
Cost:2-3 for the launcher, missiles ??(not going to assume a price)
This guided missile launcher fires 100x750mm ordinance, with an initial boost provided by a low-power gauss coil system. The missiles track a target by a combination of radar homing and manual laser targeting, and come in HE, HEAT, and namite incendiary. There is also the option of firing 1/8th kiloton warheads for an additional cost.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 04, 2015, 06:59:10 am
EDIT: first results: for kugelditz thing:
Quote
2 tokens for the extra gauss stuff + 2/3 for tube and guiding and everything else. So 4/5 total, probably 4 due to expensive ammo. Still 2 token per missile, 4 if nuke.
An extra +1 requirement for con.
Also, that other thing, is it supposed to be refillable or not? Price might change a bit depending.
Quote
So, what exact price then? I'd say we lower the price a bit if not reusable, or up it in case it's refillable? I'll ask him what it's supposed to be.
Post by: tryrar on April 04, 2015, 07:44:49 pm
As for the Kugelblitz, no way to decrese ammo costs? Ok then*shrug*
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 02:06:59 pm
Hmm... Now then...
Specifically, the Vector Field Manip. I've heard and read that manipulators (aside from automanips, which only do one thing anyway) can't be computer controlled, but could they be computer controlled if the function was severely limited? Similar to an automanip, but the function or intensity can vary slightly based on situation. For example, holding an object up at a specific distance, but the computer can change the distance depending on inputs.
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 02:10:33 pm
Well, here I am.
Hmm... Now then...MagnetsManipulators, how do they work?
Specifically, the Vector Field Manip. I've heard and read that manipulators (aside from automanips, which only do one thing anyway) can't be computer controlled, but could they be computer controlled if the function was severely limited? Similar to an automanip, but the function or intensity can vary slightly based on situation. For example, holding an object up at a specific distance, but the computer can change the distance depending on inputs.
eh, we aren't allowed to mod manips. Many people have tried to comp control them, and even if you restrict them somehow I doubt that's gonna change, especially after the recent change where its more explicit we're using brains to power them.
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 02:16:36 pm
Back to the drawing board...
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 02:19:54 pm
Oh well, never mind then. I was planning on making a drone that hovers through use of manips to keep size and noise down.
Back to the drawing board...
A custom ordered automanip would work, but that's redundant now since scout eyes are now 3 to a pack for one credit
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 02:24:42 pm
I wonder what keeps the softball sized combat drones (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_Drone_Platform) in the air.
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 02:29:01 pm
You can't exactly mount a gun to a cam-eye though, can you?
Ah, you want something for combat, not scouting. We have drone pallets that have small cheap combat drones, you could get one of those
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 02:30:47 pm
I was thinking of something like a Gunner bot (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Gunner_Bot) that can fly and is armed with a heavy laser, something like the Raduga (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Variable_Heavy_Laser_%22Raduga%22), but with a more restricted wavelength range.
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 02:31:50 pm
They're a little small though...
They're rocket powered as well though, is why they're so cheap. In general, any solution that relies on automanips is going to quickly balloon in costs past the point of practicality
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 02:37:50 pm
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 02:40:59 pm
Alright then, how about fixing some hardpoints on the sides, on which quadcopter style rotors can be fixed for in-atmosphere use, or rocket pods for non atmospheric use.
huh, not sure how practical that is. Don't get me wrong, it is a smart idea, but you're going to run into problems with getting the rotors to work properly, and even making this modular might make this too expensive for what is essentially something pretty much disposable(while you ideally want to reuse it, plan on it getting shot and destroyed in the first 10 minute of missions)
Post by: Dutrius on April 05, 2015, 03:58:56 pm
I'm thinking of reducing the laser to a Spektr (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Variable_Laser_Rifle_%22Spektr%22) sort of thing.
I don't really want rocket pods on it if it can be helped. An exploding fuel tank is generally less survivable/salvageable than a relatively low speed crash due to loss of a rotor.
Is there some sort of robotic pack animal thing that could help carrying stuff around? I'm thinking a hexapedal robot designed purely to lug stuff around. It has no weapon and only light armour, if any.
It could come with internal storage compartments for additional equipment and interesting artefacts/shiny rocks, and maybe mounts on top for landing drones on to save power/fuel or to recover drones after they get downed.
Post by: Empiricist on April 05, 2015, 04:57:05 pm
Alright then, how about fixing some hardpoints on the sides, on which quadcopter style rotors can be fixed for in-atmosphere use, or rocket pods for non atmospheric use.Hardpoints are somewhat expensive as well at 5 tokens a pop.
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 10:46:18 pm
Ok, I've been thinking. The heavy laser looks a bit too heavy, at least if we want to attempt to recover the drone when it goes down and no one has an exoskeleton.
I'm thinking of reducing the laser to a Spektr (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Variable_Laser_Rifle_%22Spektr%22) sort of thing.
I don't really want rocket pods on it if it can be helped. An exploding fuel tank is generally less survivable/salvageable than a relatively low speed crash due to loss of a rotor.
Is there some sort of robotic pack animal thing that could help carrying stuff around? I'm thinking a hexapedal robot designed purely to lug stuff around. It has no weapon and only light armour, if any.
It could come with internal storage compartments for additional equipment and interesting artefacts/shiny rocks, and maybe mounts on top for landing drones on to save power/fuel or to recover drones after they get downed.
There are robots that can be used as a packmule yes. Just ask the AM for options. As for your drone...basically, you want a drone that has more punch than the softball ones with basically hand lasers, and more survivability. Hate to say it, unless you want it to be unaffordable, you either are going to have to go with rockets after all or quadcopter design and accept you can't bring it with you on all missions, as those are your most cost effective options. As well, I'd recommend settling for a simple 2 token laser rifle or modified Red Hand so it doesn't increse the cost past what you'd be comfortable losing, since it's likely you'd be paying for this yourself.
Post by: tryrar on April 05, 2015, 11:26:27 pm
Landspeeder Hoverbike
Stat req: Aux +1
Basically nothing more than a seat, some framing, 4 electric ducted fans just powerful enough to lift the whole thing 10 feet in the air or so, and a generator to power it, this hoverbike is miles safer than the rocketbike(in that you're very unlikely to blow up in a fireball if something looks at you funny), although it cannot be used in a no atmosphere environment.
Can the council pricecheck this as well?
Post by: syvarris on April 06, 2015, 01:09:27 am
Back at the start of this very thread, I did the preliminary work on a quad (or hex, can't remember) copter which could lift a cutting laser, and a generator to power it. Not sure on the cost, but I wanna say 5-7 for the copter? I don't remember. It was also unarmored, but could snipe from 1000m and was extremly mobile, so I didn't see that as an issue.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 06, 2015, 05:43:31 am
DP to post yet another brainstorm I had(I'm just a fountain of ideas!)
Landspeeder Hoverbike
Stat req: Aux +1
Basically nothing more than a seat, some framing, 4 electric ducted fans just powerful enough to lift the whole thing 10 feet in the air or so, and a generator to power it, this hoverbike is miles safer than the rocketbike(in that you're very unlikely to blow up in a fireball if something looks at you funny), although it cannot be used in a no atmosphere environment.
Can the council pricecheck this as well?
Have you run this by pw? What did he say? Give irc chat logs if possible.
I think this would be possible, but I'm not sure if it's such a good idea. What exactly is it for? Does it really need to be able to carry a person?
Oh, and if it gets hit, you'll still go careening down to the ground to become the spread on a pavement sandwich.
Post by: Dutrius on April 06, 2015, 06:38:45 am
Post by: NAV on April 06, 2015, 12:33:58 pm
An extremely thin needle of mythril, using the same vibrating mechanism as a monorazor. Used as a sword, it can easily stab through most armours, and causes great damage to soft tissue because of the vibrating.
Cost: 15 tokens for the 1 meter long sword variant
5 tokens for the 30cm knife variant.
I want to make it cheaper by replacing most of the needle with a less expensive material, keeping the tip of the needle pure mythril. This will keep the penetrating abilities nearly the same, but make it more fragile. Piecewise confirmed this in IRC.
What is the new price? I am aiming for similar an equivalent monorazor weapon to make this weapon actually usable.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 06, 2015, 12:56:04 pm
Post by: NAV on April 06, 2015, 01:41:16 pm
I don't think the tip would instantly snap off, there is a quite a line between indestructium and paper mache.
A possible material we could use is a 50% mythril, 50% steel alloy, to cut the strength and price roughly in half.
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 06, 2015, 07:23:25 pm
Post by: Empiricist on April 06, 2015, 07:36:31 pm
Does anyone know what happens when Piezo/Testament tanks rupture?Not much. The fluid solidifies through the use of an electrification chamber in order to become as dangerous as it is when fired. So if it just spurts out before then, it shouldn't be too dangerous except perhaps as a slipping hazard.
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 06, 2015, 07:39:53 pm
Does anyone know what happens when Piezo/Testament tanks rupture?Not much. The fluid solidifies through the use of an electrification chamber in order to become as dangerous as it is when fired. So if it just spurts out before then, it shouldn't be too dangerous except perhaps as a slipping hazard.
Ah, that's too bad.
Post by: Xantalos on April 06, 2015, 08:01:12 pm
Post by: Lenglon on April 06, 2015, 10:33:34 pm
Post by: syvarris on April 06, 2015, 11:10:09 pm
PS fluid is relatively safe, by comparison. It just crystallizes when electrocuted, and the crystal explodes when damaged. Nothing more, nothing less. Simple.
Post by: Empiricist on April 06, 2015, 11:15:45 pm
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 06, 2015, 11:17:19 pm
I'm not sure about the specific incident you're talking about, but he probably stuck them with crystalline projector fluid. That stuff will... eat your flesh and replace it, or something. It's weird.
PS fluid is relatively safe, by comparison. It just crystallizes when electrocuted, and the crystal explodes when damaged. Nothing more, nothing less. Simple.
So my idea of a suit that excreted the stuff to create continually replenishing crystal armor was really, really bad. Good to know.
Post by: syvarris on April 06, 2015, 11:53:26 pm
The weirdest properties of PS fluid are the remarkable energy density, and the fact that it seems to expand upon becoming a solid. And that last one is arguable- it's just an accidental result of PW not realizing the implications when he hands out numbers. To my knowledge, nothing explicitly physics defying happens with it.
@Doctor
Thank you, that made me laugh. No, it was not a good idea, but it was creative, and creativity is one of the most valuable ideas around here.
Post by: Empiricist on April 07, 2015, 12:03:54 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 07, 2015, 12:21:07 am
Post by: Empiricist on April 07, 2015, 12:44:37 am
Post by: Xantalos on April 07, 2015, 12:57:48 am
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 07, 2015, 01:02:04 am
What about using a toxin sac to create normally synthetic fluids? For example, a sticky-goop producing sac on your neck, which you would attach to your chem thrower with a catheter.
Post by: Doomblade187 on April 07, 2015, 01:02:37 am
EDIT: As for the organic sticky goop production idea, it would probably be easier to just carry ammo. However, it might also be feasible to make a goop organ that you can carry in box and feed with slurry to make goop and pipe into the thrower? The neck sac probably wouldn't produce much. If you don't mind a slow recharge, though...
Post by: Xantalos on April 07, 2015, 01:06:17 am
While I'm vomiting questionable ideas:Ask the Doc, he made Faith able to manufacture and secrete healing gel on a whim.
What about using a toxin sac to create normally synthetic fluids? For example, a sticky-goop producing sac on your neck, which you would attach to your chem thrower with a catheter.
Post by: Empiricist on April 07, 2015, 05:35:02 am
The throwing knife sounds more Uncon to me, but that might be me wanting explosive throwing knives.Likewise :D
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 08, 2015, 05:38:24 pm
Post by: Dutrius on April 11, 2015, 02:09:13 pm
Please could somebody give me a pricecheck on the "Corvid"?
Spoiler: Corvid specs (click to show/hide)
I've just realised that I probably won't be able to actually use this yet. Oh well.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 11, 2015, 03:40:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shaporia on April 11, 2015, 05:05:15 pm
Spoiler: Hover Board (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hidden Garrote (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Warning! (click to show/hide)
Both of these designs belong to Zayne, and are public.
Post by: syvarris on April 12, 2015, 01:05:36 pm
Quote from: About the laser bazooka
20:30 <Piecewise>: 10, 3 per shot.
Quote from: About the PEW
20:33 <SeanMirrsen>: The PEW is 12 token, 3 per 2 shots.
Quote from: About the PSL
costs 13 tokens, 4 per 30 shots.
:\
@Dutrius
I'd expect the corvid to cost... oh, eight tokens? Five for the Spektr, two for flight, and one for a wetware AI. Seven if it can get a discount on the Spektr. Removing the overcharge ability is essentially pointless, IIRC, because the overcharge is a feature of the mechanism, just like the variable wavelength, and increased power efficiency. Remove one, lose them all, or gain nothing. I'm not a councilperson though, so price isn't my decision
Also the Spektr is horribly heavy. Like sixty pounds. Maybe not the best choice for a flyer.
@Shap
It somewhat distresses me that we're starting to get more and more tinkerers who stealth-tinker in IRC and have no logs to prove it. Having done similar things in the past, this would make it very easy to have PW 'okay' things without actually okaying it; Modify some part of the design a bit, and don't mention it to PW until a few weeks later when he's forgotten and will accept a "yes, you okayed this". I guess even if we did take all IRC logs they could still be tampered with, but it's not as easy.
Anyway, the hover board, while seeming quite silly, is a fairly decent item. I'd like to see it replace the jump rocket pack since it's basically just completely better for only one more token. Also, I think it should probably require at least +0 auxiliary, like the other flying rocket devices. I don't see why a balancing board with eight rockets is any easier to operate than a jetpack with two.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 12, 2015, 01:08:53 pm
Quote
:\
Yeah, I'm not sure about the price per shot as well. I'll write it up later, and then see what you guys and the rest of the council thinks. What would you think is a reasonable price? 1 per shot might be a tad low, but 2 is still pricey compared to those 2 you showed. Then again, maybe this thing is more powerful than we thought (eg actually reliably oneshotting a battlesuit) and worth the cost.
If it really becomes too expensive (or overlaps too much with PEW), I might change it to be usable by regular person and lower it in power and price.
Post by: Shaporia on April 12, 2015, 01:17:30 pm
@Shap
Anyway, the hover board, while seeming quite silly, is a fairly decent item. I'd like to see it replace the jump rocket pack since it's basically just completely better for only one more token. Also, I think it should probably require at least +0 auxiliary, like the other flying rocket devices. I don't see why a balancing board with eight rockets is any easier to operate than a jetpack with two.
I think it's because the jetpack has gimbals that you can control through an interface, while the hoverboard has no gimbals and the eight rockets on the bottom are controlled by the electronics as one. The only interface is with the feet which primary makes it use your reaction time. I'll confirm it on the ship thread by having Zayne hop into VR and design it too.
Edit: I don't have the logs from when I was designing it, but we are discussing it on IRC right now. http://mibpaste.com/SgnpOE Piecewise also mentioned why it doesn't use Aux in this one.
Post by: Dutrius on April 12, 2015, 01:21:54 pm
I'd expect the corvid to cost... oh, eight tokens? Five for the Spektr, two for flight, and one for a wetware AI. Seven if it can get a discount on the Spektr. Removing the overcharge ability is essentially pointless, IIRC, because the overcharge is a feature of the mechanism, just like the variable wavelength, and increased power efficiency. Remove one, lose them all, or gain nothing. I'm not a councilperson though, so price isn't my decision
Also the Spektr is horribly heavy. Like sixty pounds. Maybe not the best choice for a flyer.
Alright, sounds good to me. I need to go on a couple of missions anyway to get the aux requirement if I want to use the thing, assuming the aux requirement is +2 like the Gunnerbot. The cost isn't much of an issue if I survive those missions. The overcharge can stay, if it's part of the Spektr. I want to keep the Spektr on the Corvid so I can occasionally use it as a high powered laser pointer if nothing else.
I suppose it could come in two versions, one with a Spektr, for the stuff a Spektr can do that a normal laser can not, and another with just a basic laser rifle, for a lighter, more mobile drone.
Post by: syvarris on April 12, 2015, 01:31:30 pm
I don't think 1 token per shot is too little. The Raduga costs 11, one more than this, and has infinite ammo; It will always be better for anything that doesn't require a super powerful single shot. In fact, I think it would still be kinda inferior to the others. If you only ever kill three battlesuits with it, you've saved one token by not having to buy a PSL. And you've lost all the other advantages of a PSL.
I think it would actually be better to price it around six tokens, and have it be a burner; It's something cheap that people can buy 'just in case' when a PSL or PEW is way outside their price range. It would also work well as sod equipment.
(Note that this is all from a 'balance' standpoint; IIRC, PW has said that battlesuits are near immune to lasers.)
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 12, 2015, 01:41:02 pm
@Radio
I don't think 1 token per shot is too little. The Raduga costs 11, one more than this, and has infinite ammo; It will always be better for anything that doesn't require a super powerful single shot. In fact, I think it would still be kinda inferior to the others. If you only ever kill three battlesuits with it, you've saved one token by not having to buy a PSL. And you've lost all the other advantages of a PSL.
I think it would actually be better to price it around six tokens, and have it be a burner; It's something cheap that people can buy 'just in case' when a PSL or PEW is way outside their price range. It would also work well as sod equipment.
(Note that this is all from a 'balance' standpoint; IIRC, PW has said that battlesuits are near immune to lasers.)
I've considered a burner, but I decided to first ask for a regular one that works like the others. I'll think about it, maybe ask pw what the options/specs for a burner would be sometime in OOC. Or maybe just ask if we could lower the price.
Also, I think you might be overestimating the PSL's effectiveness against a battlesuit. Mostly because he himself said a sterile tinker question might not really translate 1:1 to in-game effectiveness.
Post by: syvarris on April 12, 2015, 02:09:44 pm
Besides, even if it always takes three shots to kill a BS--three more than the sterile tinker question suggested--A PSL kills ten BSs per 4 tokens, and starts with ten potential dead BSs. The LB kills 4 BSs per 4 tokens, and starts with only one potential dead BS. And the LB is still only three tokens cheaper.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 12, 2015, 02:18:11 pm
If the blaster cannon can one-shot a Battlesuit reliably with its 3-token shot, it is going to wreck unholy amounts of hell on any non-laser-resistant target, that both the PSL and the PEW will struggle to match.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 12, 2015, 02:21:46 pm
Using that argument, any weapon we've designed to work against a BS isn't guaranteed to work. It doesn't invalidate any given item in particular.
Besides, even if it always takes three shots to kill a BS--three more than the sterile tinker question suggested--A PSL kills ten BSs per 4 tokens, and starts with ten potential dead BSs. The LB kills 4 BSs per 4 tokens, and starts with only one potential dead BS. And the LB is still only three tokens cheaper.
True, I just bring it up because you keep championing the PSL as the most OP gun ever.
In the end, I might just lower power until 1 token ammo, but then the whole thing might not be worth it anymore. Hmm.
I don't think any "laser" should be gauged by its effectiveness against a Battlesuit. A laserbazooka - or a blaster cannon, as I call it - is still a laser, and a Battlesuit is very resistant against them, unlike the kinetic/electric combo of the PSL, or the kinetic/raw energy blast of the PEW.
If the blaster cannon can one-shot a Battlesuit reliably with its 3-token shot, it is going to wreck unholy amounts of hell on any non-laser-resistant target, that both the PSL and the PEW will struggle to match.
True, but those things wouldn't need 3 darn tokens per shot of it.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 12, 2015, 02:39:37 pm
Consider the amount of laser power needed, to take out a mech that can withstand a nuke, and is specifically resistant to lasers, in one shot. Consider what will happen if that energy gets deposited into something softer than that.I don't think any "laser" should be gauged by its effectiveness against a Battlesuit. A laserbazooka - or a blaster cannon, as I call it - is still a laser, and a Battlesuit is very resistant against them, unlike the kinetic/electric combo of the PSL, or the kinetic/raw energy blast of the PEW.
If the blaster cannon can one-shot a Battlesuit reliably with its 3-token shot, it is going to wreck unholy amounts of hell on any non-laser-resistant target, that both the PSL and the PEW will struggle to match.
True, but those things wouldn't need 3 darn tokens per shot of it.
A PSL gets 23 shots per 3 tokens. That's 23 small craters in rock, and enough firepower to destroy a small mechanized platoon, or significantly damage a single large building.
A PEW gets 2 shots per 3 tokens. It will make two fairly small, but very long holes in any regular terrain, enough to damage a number of buildings in a line, or sink a pair of very unlucky navy ships.
The blaster cannon would be delivering a small nuke's worth of thermal energy into a small area, instantaneously. Which would proceed to cause an explosion, because that energy has to go somewhere. It would utterly destroy any surface building. It could level a city block with one shot, in the right circumstances. It could destroy a small army with that as well, if heat insulation weren't so ubiquitous, though the resulting shockwave should be plenty destructive on its own.
Don't sell it short, Radio. The blaster cannon can be a very destructive weapon as designed.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 12, 2015, 02:43:45 pm
I think it might be a good idea regardless to try and lower ammo cost, even if that lowers damage. If only cause i don't think anyone will ever buy a weapon that costs 3 tokens per shot (then again, pw was ok with allowing 5 to 10 lower powered shots, which might offset that again).
Maybe it's time to ask around in the potential customer base.
Post by: Empiricist on April 12, 2015, 06:18:15 pm
@Shap
Anyway, the hover board, while seeming quite silly, is a fairly decent item. I'd like to see it replace the jump rocket pack since it's basically just completely better for only one more token. Also, I think it should probably require at least +0 auxiliary, like the other flying rocket devices. I don't see why a balancing board with eight rockets is any easier to operate than a jetpack with two.
Edit: I don't have the logs from when I was designing it, but we are discussing it on IRC right now. http://mibpaste.com/SgnpOE Piecewise also mentioned why it doesn't use Aux in this one.
You may want to copy IRC chatlog of your discussions in future, since Piecewise might forget. It's best to have something to jog his memory in case that happens.
Post by: spazyak on April 12, 2015, 09:23:33 pm
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 12, 2015, 09:44:19 pm
Post by: tryrar on April 12, 2015, 11:58:55 pm
I wish to basical.y attempt to replace the laser emitter in a laser rifle with the magnetometer from a microwave so as to create one that emits microwaves, I then wish to make it variable so it can act like this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System. And be deadly and horrifically burn and boil the flesh off of things. If I can't afford the microwave, I will attempt to bargain with others, as for the laser rifle I am already buying one from the armory
Already have it in the for of a Free Electron Laser that has a microwave setting :P(it's the Spektr FYI)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 13, 2015, 12:03:44 am
What Spazyak wants there is a magnetron (not magnetometer :P) hooked up to a laser rifle's power system, as a sort of a microwave shotgun. It'd be far cheaper and easier to handle than a Spektr, but it would lack precision, and therefore range. It could still cause burns though, if only at very short range. But it'd also need a heavy-duty magnetron to do serious damage, something from a microwave is unlikely to be able to handle the requisite amount of power.
Post by: spazyak on April 13, 2015, 06:42:56 am
The Spektr is a bit too wide-spectrum (hehe), and is geared to be a precision weapon for combat.Still be a fun device. A laser shotgun
What Spazyak wants there is a magnetron (not magnetometer :P) hooked up to a laser rifle's power system, as a sort of a microwave shotgun. It'd be far cheaper and easier to handle than a Spektr, but it would lack precision, and therefore range. It could still cause burns though, if only at very short range. But it'd also need a heavy-duty magnetron to do serious damage, something from a microwave is unlikely to be able to handle the requisite amount of power.
Post by: PyroDesu on April 13, 2015, 07:49:09 am
The Spektr is a bit too wide-spectrum (hehe), and is geared to be a precision weapon for combat.Still be a fun device. A laser shotgun
What Spazyak wants there is a magnetron (not magnetometer :P) hooked up to a laser rifle's power system, as a sort of a microwave shotgun. It'd be far cheaper and easier to handle than a Spektr, but it would lack precision, and therefore range. It could still cause burns though, if only at very short range. But it'd also need a heavy-duty magnetron to do serious damage, something from a microwave is unlikely to be able to handle the requisite amount of power.
We have laser shotguns - intensity to max and cohesion to minimum on the standard laser rifle, settings any user can adjust.
What you're proposing is a microwave blunderbuss. Extremely short range, but anything that's not protected (and hopefully, said protection isn't metallic) is roasting. On the outside, at least - microwaves (on the frequencies that induce heating) don't go through things very well.
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on April 13, 2015, 08:22:58 am
The Spektr is a bit too wide-spectrum (hehe), and is geared to be a precision weapon for combat.Still be a fun device. A laser shotgun
What Spazyak wants there is a magnetron (not magnetometer :P) hooked up to a laser rifle's power system, as a sort of a microwave shotgun. It'd be far cheaper and easier to handle than a Spektr, but it would lack precision, and therefore range. It could still cause burns though, if only at very short range. But it'd also need a heavy-duty magnetron to do serious damage, something from a microwave is unlikely to be able to handle the requisite amount of power.
We have laser shotguns - intensity to max and cohesion to minimum on the standard laser rifle, settings any user can adjust.
What you're proposing is a microwave blunderbuss. Extremely short range, but anything that's not protected (and hopefully, said protection isn't metallic) is roasting. On the outside, at least - microwaves (on the frequencies that induce heating) don't go through things very well.
Bonus points if it looks like a blunderbuss.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on April 13, 2015, 08:28:24 am
Bonus points if it looks like a blunderbuss.Bonus Bonus points if you have to manually load the bludarite shells through the barrel.
Post by: spazyak on April 13, 2015, 09:24:45 am
Ok microwave blunderbuss I think it will be useful against that fugua I heard we are going to fightBonus points if it looks like a blunderbuss.Bonus Bonus points if you have to manually load the bludarite shells through the barrel.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 23, 2015, 04:37:00 am
Post by: NAV on April 23, 2015, 11:20:36 am
Quote
MYTHRIL PENETRATOR dagger
Cost: 5 tokens
Requirements: Unconventional
Range: Melee
Description: An incredibly thin vibrating needle made of mythril. It can easily pierce most armours, and does massive damage to the flesh inside. This version is 30cm long. It makes a good bayonet.
Quote
MYTHRIL PENETRATOR sword
Cost: 15 tokens
Requirements: Unconventional
Range: Melee
Description: An incredibly thin vibrating needle made of mythril. It can easily pierce most armours, and does massive damage to the flesh inside. This version is 1 meter long. It is capable of stabbing through a battlesuit and killing the pilot.
I guess a final confirmation couldn't hurt. PW, council, is this design still approved?
Spoiler: All the relevant tinker quotes. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 23, 2015, 11:35:10 am
Post by: Nikitian on April 30, 2015, 04:33:52 am
Quote from: Deputy Admin of Engineering, Dr. M.Sanctor to: Tinkerers with designs awaiting approval
Due to technical glitches and difficulties with the new personnel assignments and latest shipment to the Sword, the data on the prototype equipment awaiting approval was corrupted and partially lost. For Head of Engineering Simulacrus's and my own sake, please resend the designs that were previously awaiting approval.
Dr. M.Sanctor
((The reasons are twofold: first, I am really not sure what designs were awaiting the approval - hoverboard probably, what else? Mythril penentrator, Kugelblitz? And second, with the new age of weapon power dawning on us with RC's super blaster weapons, you might want to check up on the weapon and ammo prices, lest we do it ourselves and unfortunately have to decline previously sound designs because of the shifting expected power level for a given amount of tokens.))
Post by: Shaporia on April 30, 2015, 07:12:35 am
((The reasons are twofold: first, I am really not sure what designs were awaiting the approval - hoverboard probably, what else? Mythril penentrator, Kugelblitz? And second, with the new age of weapon power dawning on us with RC's super blaster weapons, you might want to check up on the weapon and ammo prices, lest we do it ourselves and unfortunately have to decline previously sound designs because of the shifting expected power level for a given amount of tokens.))(Zayne can't really resend it on mission, but I can give ya the designs here,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Nikitian on April 30, 2015, 08:19:13 am
Post by: Shaporia on April 30, 2015, 08:46:31 am
((Sure, it's fine. Now... does it have a set hover height, or can it ascend/descend (theoretically it should be, but the controls might be tricky for that)? Can one make rolls in the air with it, and are the feet-clamps sturdy enough to support character's weight in that case? Can the variant options be bought as separate upgrades, post-purchase? Does -10 max speed refer to speed in miles per hour or kilometers per hour? Is that a different design, or would even slight character encumbrance affect the hoverboard's speed?))It has no programming yet, so at the moment it's not set, more of just you being able to adjust the bottom thrusters power, you turn by using your body weight, so likely, Feet clamps, yes. Post purchase should be possible with modification I believe. Miles per hour, or whatever the MkIII uses to measure. I have the armored, remote, and normal in different .txt files, I can post those once I get home. And it can't support an exoskeleton's weight without modification. Only armored gets the penalty to speed. Oh, and all controls are built into the feet.
Basically, I haven't installed any programs to help control since Zayne doesn't have the Aux, I plan to get it some later. I'll double check these things with piecewise on IRC later.
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 30, 2015, 09:30:54 am
Post by: Shaporia on April 30, 2015, 09:50:55 am
I just think that if that thing can fly up and down quickly, then it should use aux, not dex. Mostly for balance, since all the equipment that we have now that can be used to fly reliably uses aux. If it can move up or down but does so slowly or if it is simply used to move forward quickly and attach ones self to vehicles then I'm fine with it using dex.The thing is, according to piecewise, as long as you're not doing anything technical with it, it's not aux (I think?) And aswell, most of those use gimbals(?). I think that's where the aux comes from. This is basically you controlling some throttles and throwing your weight around. No gimbals.
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 30, 2015, 10:17:48 am
Edit: Besides, I'm not saying it has to be aux (even though I think it should be aux), I'm just saying it has to be aux if it can be used to quickly change your altitude. If it's just like a normal skateboard but with rockets instead of wheels (and maybe the ability to slowly hover up or down) then I'd grudgingly accept it using dex.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 30, 2015, 10:24:34 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 30, 2015, 10:31:41 am
Post by: Shaporia on April 30, 2015, 10:35:38 am
Okay then. You lean forwards and backwards for speed, left and right for turning and that's it? Because that's what I've been saying, that if it's just that, then Dex is acceptable (even though I think it should still be Aux). If it's more complex than that, it's Aux.It's pressing your feet down to accelerate, leaning forward is tilting the nose down, back up, ect. It's basically how fast the user can react and change is the reason for dex. I asked piecewise 2-3 times if there would be an aux requirement, but he said just dex. Aux if it's something complicated like, cutting only one engine to spin around or something.
Edit: Sorry if I sound curt or something, typing this on a tablet.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on April 30, 2015, 11:30:48 am
Post by: Nikitian on April 30, 2015, 11:40:36 am
Hoverboard is approved. Now it needs to be prototyped and sent to the Sword for testing.
(I'll publish all the current prototype resolutions in the next Heph turn as a list, I think.)
Post by: Parisbre56 on April 30, 2015, 11:42:53 am
Post by: Shaporia on April 30, 2015, 05:45:24 pm
Spoiler: Hoverboard (click to show/hide)
Edit: Added a more condensed version which basically covers all the variants.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 01, 2015, 03:55:25 am
Quote
Hoverboard is approved. Now it needs to be prototyped and sent to the Sword for testing.
Just as a matter of protocol, but note that something passing Hep also needs to still either get PW fiat, or council approval (technically council approval then still needs PW fiat, but he often just follows our recommendation).
Post by: Nikitian on May 01, 2015, 07:11:31 am
Regardless, Hephaestus approval comes last in the line, since it's not a balance decision, but usefulness - based on already defined stats and specifications. So, people, first check your designs with Piecewise, and only then send them for approval.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 01, 2015, 07:26:16 am
Post by: Nikitian on May 15, 2015, 09:58:40 am
Approve Hoverboard prototyping. As usual, three of them to be sent in the next shipment.Ok. This prototyping shit might need to be reevaluated.
@Shaporia Okay, you probably have to check this with Piecewise once again.
Post by: spazyak on May 15, 2015, 10:02:37 am
Here's the raw .txt file's contents, for those who are intrested. Spoilered.You should add that it doesn't work on water :PSpoiler: Hoverboard (click to show/hide)
Edit: Added a more condensed version which basically covers all the variants.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 15, 2015, 11:33:48 am
Post by: Yoink on May 24, 2015, 12:50:07 am
Jobasio has been slouched in a VR machine drooling on himself for a while now.
>I want to play around with the gravity generators we have on shuttles and such.
For drops from the ship. Summon up one of those, test how it works. I tried to find a quote about them, I know there was at least one moment where they've been mentioned, but alas my search-fu was insufficient.
Post by: Parisbre56 on May 24, 2015, 05:56:37 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106279.msg3155846#msg3155846
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106279.msg3382753#msg3382753
Or do you mean the gravity generators we have on ships?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 03, 2015, 02:41:09 pm
Post by: Nikitian on June 03, 2015, 03:04:05 pm
The ultimate aspiration of Maurice, actually.
Anyway, a 'lungheart' would be a nice addition to Meditech equipment list, I agree. Is there anything else vitally important for living in the short run that we could simply 'plug in'? 'Brain-bits' coprocessor, for times when half a brain (give or take) is gone, compounded by existence of some sort of external backups when you get back to the ship? The backup doesn't need to be 'decoded' into pure information (if that is the most troubling threshold out there), just some sort of 'spare' grown out of your own brain using process similar to Distributed Neural Tissue and then 'cut off' for external storage.
Post by: syvarris on June 03, 2015, 03:36:02 pm
Anyway, I highly doubt that we'll be able to make cybernetics that deal with partial or complete brain loss. Even if we have the technology, that removes almost all risk to the game. At worst, you'd risk not getting a stat bonus for a mission.
A more viable alternative would probably be to mess with the MMI, and give it the capacity to automatically 'hibernate' a brain when braindeath is close. Then, sell cheap robots that can have an MMI'd brain shoved into them and revive it. Possibly sell full robot bodies that can be hauled around in hammerspace. This would allow reviving people from basically any wound, and has the benefit of bolstering our robot numbers.
Post by: Kriellya on June 03, 2015, 04:02:46 pm
(This was where the conversation between me and the AM ended last, it's in the on-ship thread)
That said, there's room for improvement, which was one of the things on my tinker list. I like the idea of a 'combined' functionality. Maybe a synthetic heart that 'breathes' through a port in the chest.
There is also no chance PW will let us haul fully functional robo-bodies in hammer space. It's the kind of thing he's said he's not fine with, and will put limits on it if he sees someone trying it, so we'll have to justify how spare bodies are brought into the field. That said, I am thinking of trying to develop a 'compact' robo-body, which is weaker and easier to damage but lighter, more compact when not in use; easier to carry and store in the field, much like the modifications to the robo-limbs I made which turns them into something roughly the size of a collapsible walking stick, at the cost of them being much weaker when in use. (also listed on the wiki, also under surgery tools, discussion with PW was in the cited IRC log)
After that, I wanted to develop a 'med-bay battlesuit', with the design intention being that the suit (with the aid of a skilled Fleshtech) can perform major surgery including limb and organ replacement and possible revival in the field on its occupant, and carries with it a limited amount of spare parts/bodies for use in the surgery.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 03, 2015, 11:42:37 pm
Syv, questions about mmi: how does it work exactly? How does it read brain output, and how does it provide input? Cause I kinda doubt if it can fully take over for the information stream that usually flows through nerves (if nothing else, that's quite a lot of bandwith to come with). Oh, and does it take up a brain slot like an amp does?
Post by: syvarris on June 04, 2015, 12:00:21 am
Seriously though, there wasn't much detail. It's supposed to replicate the effects of a braincase, but by miniaturizing the tech and (maybe) stealing some of the non-SM design behind amps. It really shouldn't be capable of anything that a braincase can't do, and probably can't do everything a braincase can.
Also, the external connection is a matrix-style plug, although it apparently has some wireless capability. You don't need to be plugged in to send wireless messages, although maybe you're plugged into the MCP, and using it's wireless capability? I don't really know.
Yes, it takes a single brain slot.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 04, 2015, 12:05:43 am
And hooking up nerves to machines also doesn't sound like something 'field surgery' could really do.
That said, I do have another potential use for it, if you don't mind me co-opting it a bit.
Post by: syvarris on June 05, 2015, 02:28:18 pm
Besides, PW has already stated that it's perfectly capable of allowing a pilot to control an assaultsuit wih using any other controls whatsoever. Unless you were talking with PW in IRC and he decided to retcon that, I don't see why an MMI couldn't control a basic robobody. I'd agree that an MMI shouldn't be implanted with field surgery, though.
I'd be happy to see other uses you can think if. People using tech in new and innovative ways is rarely a bad thing.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 06, 2015, 03:53:03 am
And yeah, implanting something like that in the field sounds iffy. Stuff like this would always need quite an adaptation time anyway, to learn the specifics of the host brain (brains can be quite different. Brain plasticity and such) so even if you could install it, you couldn't really use it (without an even bigger helping of handwavium, that is). I have similar concerns for the robolimbs that would be attached in the field. Though there the mmi could actually be handy to explain it, just say it's the mmi logging into the robolimb wirelessly and using it. Maybe talk to kri about it, and ask him how he was gonna have his robolimbs be controlled? Cause if I'm right, and you can't just plug something into a bunch or shoulder nerves and expect it to work, that'd be a great reason for fleshy people to get an mmi.
I'll wait with the other potential uses for later, when I know more about how pw handles these sort of things.
Post by: Nikitian on June 06, 2015, 06:56:55 am
Post by: fillipk on June 07, 2015, 12:00:24 am
I can't design this myself yet but what about a medic suit, an auxiliary suit that, instead of being super combat equipped, is surgically equipped. I will let someone prototype this if I get some credit and can test the prototype.
Post by: Comrade P. on June 07, 2015, 08:15:54 am
I'm going to assume I can post ideas here if I'm on the ship.
I can't design this myself yet but what about a medic suit, an auxiliary suit that, instead of being super combat equipped, is surgically equipped. I will let someone prototype this if I get some credit and can test the prototype.
I think you can just modify MkIII suit with needed equipment, that doesn't need to be a brand new design.
Post by: Nikitian on June 07, 2015, 08:27:03 am
And, to my knowledge, Mk III is largely auxiliary-systems-equipped instead of combat-equipped (with those fancy rockets, exoskeleton and additional software and no armor/weapons whatsoever), but there is this 'universal connector' idea floating around for a long time, which we could try and implement into an item on its own - or, if sufficiently "free" cheap, roll into MCP-III proper.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on June 07, 2015, 10:36:48 am
The problem is, I don't follow how a suit can be made surgically equipped, for example. I've been toying with the idea of making "medsupply-less" Advanced kit (consisting purely of various medical instruments, but with no consumables or anything of the kind - in an effort to make it considerably cheaper), but I cannot see what can be integrated to good effect into a suit frame.
I don't think you can make that Advanced kit you are planning. You need to pack disinfective materials to keep your tools clean, or bring those separately. Or just take risk of infecting people, it's not like medics actually care about such long term problems anyway.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on June 07, 2015, 11:27:57 am
Self sharpening and self disinfecting blades/needles.
Various hollow tubes that convert organic matter into medicine.
Silk producing tube for sutures.
It'd be like one of those old leatherbound medkit thinks but all the tools would look like carved pieces of slimy black chitin.
Post by: fillipk on June 07, 2015, 11:46:43 am
Post by: NAV on June 07, 2015, 12:00:54 pm
Post by: Nikitian on June 07, 2015, 12:12:48 pm
I don't think you can make that Advanced kit you are planning. You need to pack disinfective materials to keep your tools clean, or bring those separately. Or just take risk of infecting people, it's not like medics actually care about such long term problems anyway.To tell the truth, I don't think that's of a major importance. First of all, Maurice has been using that Instrument scalpel of his for years, and not once was there any trouble with infection or something; I presume that we can simply disinfect tools and the such between the missions and then they are preserved by virtue of ER science. And secondly, given the window frame of most missions (and the level of medical facilities available afterwards), I wouldn't say regular infections pose much problem; and when they do, it's by design and probably pretty much unavoidable (see: Sharkmist mission).
In the end, HMRC Standard is pretty much nice disinfectant in and out of itself, being 100% proof and whatnot; most of the time, crude but 'free' substitute materials are available, and the thing that is really missing are the proper instruments of the trade.
Furthermore, and that is separate from the idea above (but, of course, connected), is that I think there is some need for a toolkit similar to Emergency Kit, but with focus on handiwork/aux. Advanced kit does have all kinds of tools, both Medi and Handi/Aux, but it's fairly expensive for basic gear. Having just a toolbox or something, filled with most basic engineering/mechanic's tools might be useful for our Technicians (or whatever the guys are called these days), with or without some basic supplies in the vein of Emergency Kit hammerspace.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 07, 2015, 12:28:44 pm
Not sure if medical stuff that needs no 'ammo'/uses is all that needed, unless it can be had in a very straightforward way. True, having to spend money just to get the most basic tools to do your job that doesn't even directly help you (like a better suit would). But with the team fund, and free refills due to diplo mission loot, that should be alleviated. Sounds more worthwhile than spending a lot of effort on getting reusable medical stuff in some roundabout way (getting something high-tech that uses sharkmist to create sutures instead of just packing some darn thread seems like overdesigning a solution).
Post by: piecewise on June 10, 2015, 09:34:28 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 10, 2015, 11:12:18 am
I haven't really been paying much attention here because this seems to have become some sort of tinker OOC or similar brain storming area. Was there anyone with actions that needed handling?
Is that an invitation? Or a challenge?
Post by: spazyak on June 10, 2015, 11:21:41 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 10, 2015, 11:22:44 am
could someone create what is basically a tank with fluid similar to embryonic fluid and pump it full of a person's stem cells to allow them to better recover from grievous injuries such as an arm through the head?
Medicine/biology don't work that way I'm afraid.
Post by: spazyak on June 10, 2015, 11:24:09 am
aww would there be any way to try and get it to work in a similar fashion to this to regenerate lost limbs and suchcould someone create what is basically a tank with fluid similar to embryonic fluid and pump it full of a person's stem cells to allow them to better recover from grievous injuries such as an arm through the head?
Medicine/biology don't work that way I'm afraid.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 10, 2015, 12:54:03 pm
Then there is Kriellya's new synthetic replacements that can be used to replace organs and limbs on the field (provided you have an environment where you can perform surgery).
And finally there is the specialized healing fluid pods used in the infirmary. It is similar to fleshknitter, but acts in a controlled manner and can even regrow entire bodies. However, it is very hard to use, making it very likely for you to end up with a tumor if you try to use it. Plus, it's not instantaneous, it takes some time to regrow something. As such, it will probably be best if someone made a specialized battlesuit or APC with a tank of that fluid+the necessary equipment to use it that can be used by people with high Med and/or Aux so that limbs and organs can be regrown in the field. However, it might be much more efficient and quick (if not as cheap) to simply replace said organs with synthetics or simply remove the brain and place it in a robobody/braincase.
Post by: spazyak on June 10, 2015, 12:58:43 pm
There is flshknitter that can regrow all tissues but not with the right structure. So it works for flesh and muscle, but not things that are more complex like hearts.so could you replace part of the brain with a computer, destroying any memories and such but leaving the person with a working brain and it would be upgradeable.
Then there is Kriellya's new synthetic replacements that can be used to replace organs and limbs on the field (provided you have an environment where you can perform surgery).
And finally there is the specialized healing fluid pods used in the infirmary. It is similar to fleshknitter, but acts in a controlled manner and can even regrow entire bodies. However, it is very hard to use, making it very likely for you to end up with a tumor if you try to use it. Plus, it's not instantaneous, it takes some time to regrow something. As such, it will probably be best if someone made a specialized battlesuit or APC with a tank of that fluid+the necessary equipment to use it that can be used by people with high Med and/or Aux so that limbs and organs can be regrown in the field. However, it might be much more efficient and quick (if not as cheap) to simply replace said organs with synthetics or simply remove the brain and place it in a robobody/braincase.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 10, 2015, 01:08:37 pm
Making yourself into an AI is probably impossible. You could train an AI to act like you (maybe, if you're really really lucky) but it probably wouldn't be you.
Mechanical augmentations to your brain are possible, but it tends to be dangerous. There's an upgrade for example that lets Steve control your body, but it tends to slowly fry your brain whenever used.
In short, it's either dangerous, expensive or both.
Unless you want something else? What exactly do you mean by "upgrades"?
Post by: spazyak on June 10, 2015, 01:35:23 pm
There are ways to replace your brain with mechanical parts by replacing it neuron by neuron (if I remember correctly) but there's little benefit and large risk involved.simply pump the flesh knitter into the brain them put it on what is essentially a Frankenstein body so that you have a barely sentient body guard that works for you/my future char that may steal it.
Making yourself into an AI is probably impossible. You could train an AI to act like you (maybe, if you're really really lucky) but it probably wouldn't be you.
Mechanical augmentations to your brain are possible, but it tends to be dangerous. There's an upgrade for example that lets Steve control your body, but it tends to slowly fry your brain whenever used.
In short, it's either dangerous, expensive or both.
Unless you want something else? What exactly do you mean by "upgrades"?
Post by: Nunzillor on June 10, 2015, 01:45:37 pm
I guess this would only really be useful if switching to better brains requires a turn, whereas using the switch would be nearly instantaneous and could be coupled with an action.
Post by: Nikitian on June 10, 2015, 01:51:12 pm
Maybe we could have people who have Tinkered with you in IRC or something post all the logs of such discussion here? That way, we could still bask in what little glory remains to this dangerous yet addictive behavior.
Otherwise, I must congratulate you. Were it by your design or not, you were able to crush the impertinent spirit of Tinkering and hide away what little remains of it. As the original Tinker addict, I salute you on this accomplishment!
@AI brain transformation Actually, there is a way (well, was, up to recently) - one could get that genemod that gives +1 to Aux (not safe and sorry 'enhanced capacity' of modern times, but full-dangerous genemods of foregone era), as it would make your brain fully computer-compatible but force computer-like thinking on you. Basically, closest you can get to becoming a wetware AI without dying and being rebuilt. Not sure if you can still get those genemods without the Doctor on board.
Post by: spazyak on June 10, 2015, 02:12:00 pm
@Piecewise Having the once-glorious Tinker devolve into mere OOC discussion with all actual Tinkering done off-forum makes me sad and archaic, but it's not something that can be helped, is it?well zoltan's body is currently being held in stasis till it get's there so it can last for a long time. but let's do it! lets flash knit then add those gene mods and program him to work for us and make it a flesh golem body guard!
Maybe we could have people who have Tinkered with you in IRC or something post all the logs of such discussion here? That way, we could still bask in what little glory remains to this dangerous yet addictive behavior.
Otherwise, I must congratulate you. Were it by your design or not, you were able to crush the impertinent spirit of Tinkering and hide away what little remains of it. As the original Tinker addict, I salute you on this accomplishment!
@AI brain transformation Actually, there is a way (well, was, up to recently) - one could get that genemod that gives +1 to Aux (not safe and sorry 'enhanced capacity' of modern times, but full-dangerous genemods of foregone era), as it would make your brain fully computer-compatible but force computer-like thinking on you. Basically, closest you can get to becoming a wetware AI without dying and being rebuilt. Not sure if you can still get those genemods without the Doctor on board.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 10, 2015, 04:39:01 pm
Hey pw, now that manips changed and only need the human brain in order to function, does that mean we can now give manips to sods or robots to use? If not, why not?
This.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 11, 2015, 01:55:32 am
Man there should really be a word for Amp stress, Ampout? Ampburn? Ampdrit?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 11, 2015, 01:56:35 am
Post by: piecewise on June 11, 2015, 10:35:41 am
As long as they have a human brain they're carrying with them, yes.Hey pw, now that manips changed and only need the human brain in order to function, does that mean we can now give manips to sods or robots to use? If not, why not?
This.
Though none of them are currently trained to use them.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 11, 2015, 10:42:46 am
Post by: piecewise on June 11, 2015, 10:56:22 am
Well folks, that was it, good show. We can now have an army of soldiers that can instantly snipe any armor they come across. Probably destroys the concept behind the blazooka as well. Oh well, we had a good run.Well, do keep in mind that they're not very smart or creative, so about the best we can do is train them to do the same sort of actions repeatedly. Sort of like they're just carrying a dozen or so automanips that have distinct functions.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 11, 2015, 10:59:35 am
Well folks, that was it, good show. We can now have an army of soldiers that can instantly snipe any armor they come across. Probably destroys the concept behind the blazooka as well. Oh well, we had a good run.Well, do keep in mind that they're not very smart or creative, so about the best we can do is train them to do the same sort of actions repeatedly. Sort of like they're just carrying a dozen or so automanips that have distinct functions.
But they can correctly guess a distance and such, right? Important part of shooting a gun and all. So, if nothing else, they can snipe all the battlesuit pilots or other hard targets with a microwave manip, right? And even then, given a decent commander, can't he order them what to type in, meaning lack of creativity isn't a big issue (provided you find people to command them)?
Post by: swordsmith04 on June 11, 2015, 11:00:50 am
Post by: spazyak on June 11, 2015, 11:01:52 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 11, 2015, 11:04:06 am
Sooo who has claimed future ZOltan cyborg body guard robot?
Me, a while ago. Didn't you see? For glorious testing.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 11, 2015, 11:05:02 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 11, 2015, 11:09:18 am
Post by: spazyak on June 11, 2015, 11:30:32 am
ah yah...Sooo who has claimed future ZOltan cyborg body guard robot?
Me, a while ago. Didn't you see? For glorious testing.
Post by: syvarris on June 11, 2015, 12:54:34 pm
B:I think sod manipulators would work great, and beautifully, as long as we train them well. Sods always do what they're trained to do perfectly, and do exactly what they were told to do, but nothing more. They won't overload manips unless we tell them to deactivate their control implants (which forces them to think for themselves), and even then, we could train them to take the brain out and then destroy it if their control implants go dead. All this, of course, assumes that they're outside the current reality bubble of PW's attention, because sods have been proven to act strangely within that bubble.
...Going to reply to me? Ask a question that isn't directed at PW? Please do so in the Heph OOC thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.1185).
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 12, 2015, 03:20:05 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w)
You can assume the system we would use might have extra gauss/railgun systems to help launch it up (eg kinda like a LESHO). It also doesn't have to be equally 'man-portable' as this, something exoskeleton-fired would also be ok. Or hell, a small stationary system (like how a mortar can be used by a regular human, but said human couldn't use it on the move, he has to deploy it first). Finally, assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
Post by: piecewise on June 12, 2015, 10:36:31 am
hey pw, is something like this possible in ER:Well thats the silliest fucking defense system I've ever seen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w)
You can assume the system we would use might have extra gauss/railgun systems to help launch it up (eg kinda like a LESHO). It also doesn't have to be equally 'man-portable' as this, something exoskeleton-fired would also be ok. Or hell, a small stationary system (like how a mortar can be used by a regular human, but said human couldn't use it on the move, he has to deploy it first). Finally, assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
Anyways, so you're basically just asking if we can create some sort of ground based, semi-portable missile system for engaging targets in close orbit?
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 12, 2015, 11:01:34 am
hey pw, is something like this possible in ER:Well thats the silliest fucking defense system I've ever seen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w)
You can assume the system we would use might have extra gauss/railgun systems to help launch it up (eg kinda like a LESHO). It also doesn't have to be equally 'man-portable' as this, something exoskeleton-fired would also be ok. Or hell, a small stationary system (like how a mortar can be used by a regular human, but said human couldn't use it on the move, he has to deploy it first). Finally, assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
Anyways, so you're basically just asking if we can create some sort of ground based, semi-portable missile system for engaging targets in close orbit?
Yes (for the record, they used that so the peeps on that station could deny they themselves shot that ship full of refugees. It was for 'plausible deniability'). Failing that, how big would such a system (aka rail/gauss launcher, with rockets to further boost it up) need to be to target ships in such an orbit? Assume a payload capable of dealing decent damage to such a spaceship (shaped nuclear charge perhaps?)
Post by: Nikitian on June 17, 2015, 02:23:35 pm
Tinkerers awaiting approval for their designs' prototyping, please repost the relevant information.
Either here, or in Hephaestus OOC. Please check that you have Piecewise's approval on the design.
So far only the Hoverboard has been approved for prototyping.
Post by: tryrar on June 17, 2015, 02:41:03 pm
((Reposting since it was missed before))
Tinkerers awaiting approval for their designs' prototyping, please repost the relevant information.
Either here, or in Hephaestus OOC. Please check that you have Piecewise's approval on the design.
So far only the Hoverboard has been approved for prototyping.
Kugelblitz GML
Stat reqs: Exoskeleton STR and +0 aux
Cost:4 for the launcher, 2 per missile
This guided missile launcher fires 100x750mm ordinance, with an initial boost provided by a low-power gauss coil system. The missiles track a target by a combination of radar homing and manual laser targeting, and come in HE, HEAT, and namite incendiary. There is also the option of firing 1/8th kiloton warheads for an additional cost.
Eidt: And yes, IIRC PW said ok to this once the council and I nailed down the final costs and stats. The only remaining issue was how well it destroyed stuff and I think we worked that out over IRC(basically it won't quite damage a battlesuit unless you hit a joint, but you might crack armor plates. Unless you launch a nuke round at it :P)
Post by: Dutrius on June 17, 2015, 03:31:35 pm
Armament: Spektr laser (without overcharge ability). Powered by rocket pods.
Mobility: four small rocket pods on gimballing mounts.
AI: simple, gunnerbot style AI. Follows owner and shoots stuff, doesn't do much else.
Cost and stat requirements: probably the same as a gunnerbot.
Reposting this because someone might want to use it at some point. Prototyping could also be useful.
Post by: tryrar on June 21, 2015, 08:52:47 pm
About that medical equipment I asked you about:
1)You said it would take a full-sized white panel van or so to cart around revival machinery. How much bigger a vehicle would we need if we added a small trauma surgery suite as well as space for a "reasonable"(leave that to you) amount of replacement limbs and organs as well as a decent amount of medical supplies and drugs, a couple full robo-bodies and machinery to install brains into braincases, as well as a couple head sized stasis units for when all the above runs out?(Oh, and room for the medic to run all of this, and MAYBE a couple assistants). Basically, all the other bits needed to get troopers into a condition to be revived.
2)The cost for all the above equipment, as well as a general power requirement
3)The general weight of the above. Assuming a reasonable vehicle to carry all of this, would we need a specialized shuttle to transport and lift this into the field?
Post by: spazyak on June 21, 2015, 08:54:45 pm
Post by: Ozarck on June 22, 2015, 02:33:59 am
one option for operating space is to make the thing extendable, like a pop-up camper or something. That is, have the sides be able to be slid out, maybe the top extended. It wouldn't give a lot of space to work in, and wouldn't be quickly mobile in that state, but it would mean having a better stocked mobile surgery or whatever than if fit remained tightly sealed up like an APC. Roll up to the battle one, extend, collect wounded and do what surgery you can before having to seal up and bug out.
That's probably an option for certain types of missions, which aren't quite as hit-and-run as mission 20. So, limited use?
Post by: piecewise on June 25, 2015, 08:50:44 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 25, 2015, 09:41:35 am
So, was there anyone's questions I didn't answer in IRC yesterday?
Boatloads of questions, but couldn't really be on then. But if you have summer classes, then we could always also do it via the ol' tinker thread as well.
Post by: Nikitian on June 25, 2015, 09:51:20 am
Same here. Lots of questions still pending, but it might wait and hope to get resolved via other means.So, was there anyone's questions I didn't answer in IRC yesterday?
Boatloads of questions, but couldn't really be on then. But if you have summer classes, then we could always also do it via the ol' tinker thread as well.
Post by: tryrar on June 25, 2015, 11:03:47 am
So, was there anyone's questions I didn't answer in IRC yesterday?
One minor thing I didn't get to yesterday. What would be the cost of outfitting all our shuttles with 2 manually controlled PD laser turrets(in case we have to make a hot extraction again and have the hounds of hell chasing us)? Nothing fancy, just basically two fast turning turrets with lasers only slightly more powerful that the bog-standard rifles(and only because they are tuned for slightly extra range), a camera or two for aiming, and a way of power transfer from the shuttle's power supply.
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 26, 2015, 03:05:33 am
hey pw, is something like this possible in ER:Well thats the silliest fucking defense system I've ever seen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w)
You can assume the system we would use might have extra gauss/railgun systems to help launch it up (eg kinda like a LESHO). It also doesn't have to be equally 'man-portable' as this, something exoskeleton-fired would also be ok. Or hell, a small stationary system (like how a mortar can be used by a regular human, but said human couldn't use it on the move, he has to deploy it first). Finally, assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
Anyways, so you're basically just asking if we can create some sort of ground based, semi-portable missile system for engaging targets in close orbit?
Yes (for the record, they used that so the peeps on that station could deny they themselves shot that ship full of refugees. It was for 'plausible deniability'). Failing that, how big would such a system (aka rail/gauss launcher, with rockets to further boost it up) need to be to target ships in such an orbit? Assume a payload capable of dealing decent damage to such a spaceship (shaped nuclear charge perhaps?)
((Reposting before I forget.))
Post by: piecewise on June 29, 2015, 11:03:47 am
Well, depends on the planet it's used on honestly. Earth level gravity would make getting a handheld rocket off the planet pretty damn hard. You'd need some serious thrust on that thing, or a lot of time for it to putt putt up and out of the atmosphere slowly. How far off planet are we talking here? Upper atmosphere? Near space?hey pw, is something like this possible in ER:Well thats the silliest fucking defense system I've ever seen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9rS-x4aT5w)
You can assume the system we would use might have extra gauss/railgun systems to help launch it up (eg kinda like a LESHO). It also doesn't have to be equally 'man-portable' as this, something exoskeleton-fired would also be ok. Or hell, a small stationary system (like how a mortar can be used by a regular human, but said human couldn't use it on the move, he has to deploy it first). Finally, assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
Anyways, so you're basically just asking if we can create some sort of ground based, semi-portable missile system for engaging targets in close orbit?
Yes (for the record, they used that so the peeps on that station could deny they themselves shot that ship full of refugees. It was for 'plausible deniability'). Failing that, how big would such a system (aka rail/gauss launcher, with rockets to further boost it up) need to be to target ships in such an orbit? Assume a payload capable of dealing decent damage to such a spaceship (shaped nuclear charge perhaps?)
((Reposting before I forget.))
Even something like upper atmosphere is probably gonna require a large enough rocket that this system will need to be strapped to the back of a battle suit or something similar.
Post your questions then. Try not to post enormous walls though, it makes me less likely to actually respond.
Post by: Parisbre56 on June 29, 2015, 01:37:56 pm
I call it the "Doctor Suit" (alternate name "The Cannibal"), both because it's meant to be a medical battlesuit and because it looks a bit twisted, like one of the Doctor's creations.
Imagine a suit the size of a battlesuit, but it is made out of various robotic arms, legs and skulls.
Those are connected with and supported by various organs (hearts pumping fluid to them, guts and lungs filtering it, eyballs providing sight, synthbones providing support, the wires and electronics that make everything work, etc) that surround the cockpit.
The suit is covered by a few thin, semi-transparent sections of synthskin instead of armour, through which the various pulsating organs can be made out.
Whenever the driver wants to heal someone (be they robot or human), he disconnects and rips out the necessary limbs/organs and then performs surgery to replace whatever is missing from the injured person, essentially cannibalizing himself for parts. But he can also work in reverse, taking the still usable parts of permadead teammates and adding them to his body to be used for spare parts later.
That's the basic idea. I can answer questions about how specific parts will work if you want. I'm just not posting everything to keep it simple.
I've got a few more questions for extra equipment it could have but I just want to see if the basic idea can work for now.
I realise it's not the most efficient design, especially since it gives up most armour, but I think it's fun and looks cool.
Post by: Ozarck on June 29, 2015, 05:17:45 pm
Post by: AkumaKasai on June 30, 2015, 10:47:05 am
Post by: piecewise on June 30, 2015, 11:00:08 am
How much do you think a Dictor suit would cost? I'm not even a medic and I want one.I've already got a man's soul for one of them.
Post by: Toaster on June 30, 2015, 11:04:34 am
Post by: AkumaKasai on June 30, 2015, 11:41:24 am
...Is wearing one of those replacement limbs going to induce thoughts of omnicide?Of course. They come preinjected with near-lethal amounts of pure adrenaline and steroids.
Post by: piecewise on July 01, 2015, 09:52:17 am
...Is wearing one of those replacement limbs going to induce thoughts of omnicide?nahhhhh....probably not.
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 01, 2015, 07:01:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If a spaceship has a maximum distance X at which it can still give accurate fire support (not indiscriminate kinetic bombardment), then that range.
What if it was a system that's mounted on a modified battlesuit-like platform? Maybe a big rigid spinal-mounted super-LESHO?
What if it was a system where you have a long (several meters below ground) tube with gauss accelerators (magnets ho!) at the sides to give it a really big push? The projectile itself still has rockets, but it gets a good deal of its initial speed from the launch system.
Also, I propose you rename this (or Hep) thread to 'my hubris'.
Post by: piecewise on July 03, 2015, 10:30:28 am
Well that depends on the ship and the payload. I mean, lasers will lose coherency over a certain distance but a gauss shot will, assuming it's aimed correctly, be able to hit a planet on the other side of the freaking galaxy. Are we talking like warships or more like weaponized shuttles? Because Weaponized shuttles is basically the only thing a ground based rocket will be able to take out. Even nuke tipped rockets will probably be shot down by anything with a decent Point defense system.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If a spaceship has a maximum distance X at which it can still give accurate fire support (not indiscriminate kinetic bombardment), then that range.
What if it was a system that's mounted on a modified battlesuit-like platform? Maybe a big rigid spinal-mounted super-LESHO?
What if it was a system where you have a long (several meters below ground) tube with gauss accelerators (magnets ho!) at the sides to give it a really big push? The projectile itself still has rockets, but it gets a good deal of its initial speed from the launch system.
Also, I propose you rename this (or Hep) thread to 'my hubris'.
That could work better, Especially if you're mostly using it to aid in reaching escape velocity.
Again, that works, but kinda kills the point of mobility eh?
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 07, 2015, 10:10:08 am
Quote
TINKER: Miya's Hubris
Not what I had in mind, what with you always complaining about tinker, but still true enough.
Quote
Well that depends on the ship and the payload. I mean, lasers will lose coherency over a certain distance but a gauss shot will, assuming it's aimed correctly, be able to hit a planet on the other side of the freaking galaxy. Are we talking like warships or more like weaponized shuttles? Because Weaponized shuttles is basically the only thing a ground based rocket will be able to take out. Even nuke tipped rockets will probably be shot down by anything with a decent Point defense system.
That could work better, Especially if you're mostly using it to aid in reaching escape velocity.
Again, that works, but kinda kills the point of mobility eh?
Mobility isn't the main point, the point is checking if there is a cheap-ish way for a planet to defend itself from ships in orbit. AS for range, I specified it before:
Quote
assume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
This could be a shuttle in low orbit, or a warship higher. point is, one cannot easily defend against long-range kinetic glassing, but at that range you also don't have precise (kinetic or laser) fire support (to give artillery support to your ground troops capturing whatever it is you don't wanna nuke). I am trying to see if there is a way for a planet to 'scare away' warships in orbit (and shuttles flying lower I guess), because if yes, the UWM could use that to prevent our 'kill every hard target or group of resistance from space' doctrine.
Some facts to help:
Quote
A low Earth orbit (LEO) is an orbit around Earth with an altitude between 160 kilometers (99 mi) (orbital period of about 88 minutes), and 2,000 kilometers (1,200 mi) (about 127 minutes).
Quote
Earth observation satellites and spy satellites use LEO as they are able to see the surface of the Earth more clearly as they are not so far away. They are also able to traverse the surface of the Earth. A majority of artificial satellites are placed in LEO, making one complete revolution around the Earth in about 90 minutes.
Quote
The North American X-15 was a hypersonic rocket-powered aircraft operated by the United States Air Force and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration as part of the X-plane series of experimental aircraft. The X-15 set speed and altitude records in the 1960s, reaching the edge of outer space and returning with valuable data used in aircraft and spacecraft design. As of June 2015, the X-15 holds the official world record for the highest speed ever reached by a manned, powered aircraft. Its maximum speed was 4,520 miles per hour (7,274 km/h), or Mach 6.72.[1]
So, given a ship in LEO (say 1000km) away and a projectile with a average speed of 8 000 km/h (seems very plausible with ER tech, could probably be much higher) it would take the projectile 7.5 minutes (450 sec) for impact. If you can shoot one down every 5 seconds, that's just 90 rockets you need to take down a spaceship (that would cost more in resources, due to needing space magic for FTL engines).
Post by: piecewise on July 08, 2015, 09:58:37 am
QuoteTINKER: Miya's Hubris
Not what I had in mind, what with you always complaining about tinker, but still true enough.QuoteWell that depends on the ship and the payload. I mean, lasers will lose coherency over a certain distance but a gauss shot will, assuming it's aimed correctly, be able to hit a planet on the other side of the freaking galaxy. Are we talking like warships or more like weaponized shuttles? Because Weaponized shuttles is basically the only thing a ground based rocket will be able to take out. Even nuke tipped rockets will probably be shot down by anything with a decent Point defense system.
That could work better, Especially if you're mostly using it to aid in reaching escape velocity.
Again, that works, but kinda kills the point of mobility eh?
Mobility isn't the main point, the point is checking if there is a cheap-ish way for a planet to defend itself from ships in orbit. AS for range, I specified it before:Quoteassume the target is a spaceship that's in an orbit allowing it to do precision laser bombardment.
This could be a shuttle in low orbit, or a warship higher. point is, one cannot easily defend against long-range kinetic glassing, but at that range you also don't have precise (kinetic or laser) fire support (to give artillery support to your ground troops capturing whatever it is you don't wanna nuke). I am trying to see if there is a way for a planet to 'scare away' warships in orbit (and shuttles flying lower I guess), because if yes, the UWM could use that to prevent our 'kill every hard target or group of resistance from space' doctrine.
Some facts to help:QuoteA low Earth orbit (LEO) is an orbit around Earth with an altitude between 160 kilometers (99 mi) (orbital period of about 88 minutes), and 2,000 kilometers (1,200 mi) (about 127 minutes).QuoteEarth observation satellites and spy satellites use LEO as they are able to see the surface of the Earth more clearly as they are not so far away. They are also able to traverse the surface of the Earth. A majority of artificial satellites are placed in LEO, making one complete revolution around the Earth in about 90 minutes.QuoteThe North American X-15 was a hypersonic rocket-powered aircraft operated by the United States Air Force and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration as part of the X-plane series of experimental aircraft. The X-15 set speed and altitude records in the 1960s, reaching the edge of outer space and returning with valuable data used in aircraft and spacecraft design. As of June 2015, the X-15 holds the official world record for the highest speed ever reached by a manned, powered aircraft. Its maximum speed was 4,520 miles per hour (7,274 km/h), or Mach 6.72.[1]
So, given a ship in LEO (say 1000km) away and a projectile with a average speed of 8 000 km/h (seems very plausible with ER tech, could probably be much higher) it would take the projectile 7.5 minutes (450 sec) for impact. If you can shoot one down every 5 seconds, that's just 90 rockets you need to take down a spaceship (that would cost more in resources, due to needing space magic for FTL engines).
Well then yes, it would be a possible to make something like this and make it portable. Probably not super portable, but portable.
Post by: Hapah on July 08, 2015, 02:03:37 pm
I want a Gauss Rifle that shoots the same size slugs at a better rate of fire (3-4x?). Make the mag bigger by the same amount so that it doesn't run dry after 2 rounds of shooting. Will likely be bulkier and heavier as a result. Shooting for a price in the 6-7 token range. Does this sound feasible? Need any more info?
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 09, 2015, 09:24:04 am
Quote
Well then yes, it would be a possible to make something like this and make it portable. Probably not super portable, but portable.
So, that means that, as long as an enemy isn't willing to nuke the shit out of an area from really far away, it should be possible to deny orbital artillery support capabilities?
Next thing: artillery support shuttle. Basically a high-altitude gunship. We talked about this before, do you remember that? Think a shuttle with the following features:
-Can fly at high altitude.
-Decent sensors to be able to accurately fire.
-Has QEC to Sword and good regular comms to talk to ground troops.
-Has a shape to help with stealth (like what the B-2 has going) and a coating of stealth material.
-Has a suite of countermeasures (flares, chaff, ...)
-Armored with a ground layer of sharkmist plate and hexsand on top of it (enough to protect against conventional AA laser installations).
-Armed with:
-A couple lasers of variable output (maybe a design like the FEL cruiser, basically a big box with multiple exit sites for the laser beam). At the least, an output/turret in the front, back, sides and underside
-A LESHO-like launch system for very precise missiles that can (but don't strictly have to) be accelerated with gauss tech. Missiles can have various payloads.
-Cockpit to allow for up to 3 pilots (or 6 braincases), but can be remote-controlled by steve as well.
-When a pilot is present, the chances for an artillery strike to hit is better according to the pilot's AUX skill. But please, don't make the thing miss 4/6 of the time when on autopilot, like the Hep artillery did, that was a bit ridiculous.
-It costs 5 tokens to have the artillery shuttle deployed.
-1 token buys you 3 airstrike 'vouchers'. Spending more vouchers at once allows a larger strike (spending 1 might buy you a 3 sec laser sweep of battlesuit-damaging power, spending 2 might buy you a single laser pulse straight melting a battlesuit, spending 5 vouchers might buy you a kinetic missile with a nuclear payload, etc). Should we precisely define what amount gets you what, or woud you prefer to keep it more vague?
-Name: not sure yet; Probably High Altitude Gunship ("Deploy the HAG!") or an animal as designation (probably a bird of prey. Eagle, falcon harrier, buzzard, hawk, something like that. What would you like best or find easiest to remember?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on July 09, 2015, 10:21:38 am
-Name: not sure yet; Probably High Altitude Gunship ("Deploy the HAG!") or an animal as designation (probably a bird of prey. Eagle, falcon harrier, buzzard, hawk, something like that. What would you like best or find easiest to remember?((We've been doing well naming ships after weapons. For this one, "Kunai" would seem appropriate.))
Post by: tryrar on July 09, 2015, 11:12:27 am
-Name: not sure yet; Probably High Altitude Gunship ("Deploy the HAG!") or an animal as designation (probably a bird of prey. Eagle, falcon harrier, buzzard, hawk, something like that. What would you like best or find easiest to remember?((We've been doing well naming ships after weapons. For this one, "Kunai" would seem appropriate.))
((Then we should name the Hot Extract Shuttle the EXACTO knife :P)
Post by: Shaporia on July 09, 2015, 07:27:06 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 09, 2015, 07:38:33 pm
Post by: Nikitian on July 09, 2015, 07:43:07 pm
Scalpels are good at extracting things.Oooh! Since Tryrar semi-challenged me to make a competing shuttle design around Project Orion drives (it's all in the IRC logs!), I now have an opportunity to make a design with that name!
Post by: renegadelobster on July 09, 2015, 07:54:30 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 09, 2015, 08:18:31 pm
Bonus points if it utilises force blades for both offense and defence.Scalpels are good at extracting things.Oooh! Since Tryrar semi-challenged me to make a competing shuttle design around Project Orion drives (it's all in the IRC logs!), I now have an opportunity to make a design with that name!
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 09, 2015, 09:27:48 pm
Make it use those anti space magic rods to stab reality as a means of reactionless propulsion.Bonus points if it utilises force blades for both offense and defence.Scalpels are good at extracting things.Oooh! Since Tryrar semi-challenged me to make a competing shuttle design around Project Orion drives (it's all in the IRC logs!), I now have an opportunity to make a design with that name!
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 09, 2015, 10:06:45 pm
That wouldnt work... those rods repel space magic, not reality.Make it use those anti space magic rods to stab reality as a means of reactionless propulsion.Bonus points if it utilises force blades for both offense and defence.Scalpels are good at extracting things.Oooh! Since Tryrar semi-challenged me to make a competing shuttle design around Project Orion drives (it's all in the IRC logs!), I now have an opportunity to make a design with that name!
I did have an idea to improve seans turbofan suit though, not really cost effective but meh.
If you create a postage stamp sized forcefield anchor and surround it with a frictionless bearing you can rotate it at ludicrous speeds for a fraction of the energy a normal turbofan would require. This means that if you generate propellor shaped forcefields and put a cover over the front to catch the wind and pull you forward you could get unlimited flight time and increased top speed without needing to worry about including bulky battery packs and the like.
Actually... would rotating a forcfield generate thrust and impart it on the anchor?
I assumed it wouldnt (hence pushing air instead of pulling) because they arent physically linked, but they do have some form of meta-physical connection holding them a set distance apart...
So the question is, would the forcefield simply displace air and remain immobile? Or would the whole setup just pick itself up and fly off into the distance?
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 10, 2015, 05:52:51 am
No, see? It can definitely stab reality. :PAnd finally, question: if we coated a Hammer cannon round with those anti-spess magic rods, would that allow the round to negate a cap ship's automanip defenses and hit it anyway?Remember that our cannons use space magic to fire. Insulating a shell against space magic would make it hard to fire. Not to mention that firing a moving field like that...oh dear. Just stick a knife in reality's belly and yank upwards why don't you.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on July 10, 2015, 05:59:35 am
Post by: Nikitian on July 10, 2015, 08:53:28 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on July 10, 2015, 10:34:18 am
Post by: renegadelobster on July 10, 2015, 10:52:53 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on July 10, 2015, 11:43:35 am
I thought that's what the space magic facility in the Hephaestus system was going to do. Or are you talking about the other testicle?Obviously the other one.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on July 17, 2015, 01:53:22 pm
Basically it is a system built around bare exoskeleton. It breaks wearer's joints by bending them backwards repeatedly until it doesn't have enough strength to do so or until they don't break anymore.
Few weak lasers positioned around to cut and burn flesh, rigged to use exoskeleton's power source.
Medical system loaded with poisons and acids to inject or evaporate into breathable form.
Pistons to break major bones, ribcage and spine repeatedly.
Serrated spikes to impale and tear flesh and organs.
User wears it before being dropped on mission site and by time he gets there he's beefed up to handle most of basic forms of damage. Not intented to wear during mission.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 17, 2015, 05:57:59 pm
The Painsuit. Don't shoot me yet.
Basically it is a system built around bare exoskeleton. It breaks wearer's joints by bending them backwards repeatedly until it doesn't have enough strength to do so or until they don't break anymore.
Few weak lasers positioned around to cut and burn flesh, rigged to use exoskeleton's power source.
Medical system loaded with poisons and acids to inject or evaporate into breathable form.
Pistons to break major bones, ribcage and spine repeatedly.
Spikes to impale flesh and organs.
User wears it before being dropped on mission site and by time he gets there he's beefed up to handle most of basic forms of damage.
what the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
Sorry, no other words there.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 17, 2015, 06:09:18 pm
You said the problem with fleshknitter was that it grew things very quickly but didn't provide any structure for the cells.
What if there was a device a medic could carry that could "sculpt" organ scaffolding that is then pumped full of fleshknitter? Then the resulting cells would have a scaffold, something that would guide them, help them form the proper structure, the proper type of cells.
The advantage is that you have two tools ("printer" and fleshknitter can) that can heal most kinds of injury. (Although you'd probably need some tools from an advanced kit as well to make your job easier and more likely to succeed, since it would be better if you clean the wound and stop the bleeding and prepare the area.)
The disadvantages are that it takes more time than merely injecting some fleshknitter in the wound (printing an entire arm would take forever and probably drain the entire printer cartridge, but merely reconnecting a limb or fixing an eye would be relatively quick). It's also a sensitive process that requires the patient to remain reasonably still and the environment relatively safe. And, even though the software in the tool handles many things like analyzing the shape of the wound and knowing how to print certain kinds and configurations of flesh, the medic is responsible for making the ultimate choices about what kind of cell goes where and what shape the organ should have (meaning that with a bad roll, you might end up with an eyball in your guts). So it's much like real surgery in a way.
Overall, not as good, quick or easy to use as Xan's body and it can only work on fleshies, not robots, but it might be cheap enough and versatile enough to justify its existence. I could see it as an upgrade for a medic who already has an advanced kit and a can of fleshknitter.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 17, 2015, 07:02:53 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 17, 2015, 07:18:53 pm
Edit: What we're really missing now is a way to replace and regrow synthflesh. But that's evil-voodoo-need-to-know-only-or-the-universe-ends black box tech, meaning only Hephaestus could have a chance of doing that. Best we can do right now is replace damaged synthflesh with robotic parts.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on July 18, 2015, 05:04:01 am
what the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
Sorry, no other words there.
What? If you buy IVAN Treatment then obviously you are going to hurt yourself in order to get defensive mutations. Why not automate the process?
Post by: Comrade P. on July 20, 2015, 12:12:53 pm
Answered (IRC quote below)
Post by: swordsmith04 on July 20, 2015, 01:31:03 pm
Quote
[22:15] <+Swordsmith04> PW, Comrade P wanted to ask you whether the IVAN Treatment and the Limiter Unlocker genemods should be incompatible (he thought it might lead to something like the actual Ivan)
[22:17] <Piecewise> You might not wanna mix high level gene mods sword
Compatible, but not recommended.
Post by: Xantalos on July 20, 2015, 01:32:50 pm
So get Cthunkan to try it out, got it.Quote[22:15] <+Swordsmith04> PW, Comrade P wanted to ask you whether the IVAN Treatment and the Limiter Unlocker genemods should be incompatible (he thought it might lead to something like the actual Ivan)
[22:17] <Piecewise> You might not wanna mix high level gene mods sword
Compatible, but not recommended.
By the by, is it still possible to tinker, but to make a weapon solely for oneself, or alter an existing weapon a bit, like it originally was?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 20, 2015, 03:57:29 pm
is it possible to make a self sustaining manipulator that anchors an item to a specific object and completely elimates that objects weight in relation to its anchor?
If so how large would the manipulator be?
If the object being swung around was reduced in size would this affect the end price?
Basically, is it possible to make an automanipulator that lets you swing a battlesuit sword around as if it only weighed as much as a flashlight by metaphysically anchoring it 15cm beyond the crosspiece of a sword hilt?
And would exchanging the BS sword for a hexbug volleyball make it cheaper?
also you told me in the past that while we cannot use GPS coordinates for space magic we can use special objects to replace the space magic origin co-ordinates so that the manipulator itself doesnt need to be re-oriented.
How much would one of these space magic targetting sensors cost?
How far can they be moved from the manipulator and still function?
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 20, 2015, 04:04:15 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 20, 2015, 04:14:40 pm
Note that to make automanipulators self sustaining they need to be about the size of a car. So as long as you're fine with limited uses, it should be possible.Im not expecting this to be man portable, it would be nice though.
But yeah, barring any technological alternatives to shrink it this weapon is likely going to be vehicle and avatar only.
Although im hopeful it could be modified for use with an assault suit.
Post by: piecewise on July 23, 2015, 11:51:42 am
Well, you should be able to at least retaliate. I can't tell you how effective it would be because scenarios are different.QuoteWell then yes, it would be a possible to make something like this and make it portable. Probably not super portable, but portable.
So, that means that, as long as an enemy isn't willing to nuke the shit out of an area from really far away, it should be possible to deny orbital artillery support capabilities?
Next thing: artillery support shuttle. Basically a high-altitude gunship. We talked about this before, do you remember that? Think a shuttle with the following features:
-Can fly at high altitude.
-Decent sensors to be able to accurately fire.
-Has QEC to Sword and good regular comms to talk to ground troops.
-Has a shape to help with stealth (like what the B-2 has going) and a coating of stealth material.
-Has a suite of countermeasures (flares, chaff, ...)
-Armored with a ground layer of sharkmist plate and hexsand on top of it (enough to protect against conventional AA laser installations).
-Armed with:
-A couple lasers of variable output (maybe a design like the FEL cruiser, basically a big box with multiple exit sites for the laser beam). At the least, an output/turret in the front, back, sides and underside
-A LESHO-like launch system for very precise missiles that can (but don't strictly have to) be accelerated with gauss tech. Missiles can have various payloads.
-Cockpit to allow for up to 3 pilots (or 6 braincases), but can be remote-controlled by steve as well.
-When a pilot is present, the chances for an artillery strike to hit is better according to the pilot's AUX skill. But please, don't make the thing miss 4/6 of the time when on autopilot, like the Hep artillery did, that was a bit ridiculous.
-It costs 5 tokens to have the artillery shuttle deployed.
-1 token buys you 3 airstrike 'vouchers'. Spending more vouchers at once allows a larger strike (spending 1 might buy you a 3 sec laser sweep of battlesuit-damaging power, spending 2 might buy you a single laser pulse straight melting a battlesuit, spending 5 vouchers might buy you a kinetic missile with a nuclear payload, etc). Should we precisely define what amount gets you what, or woud you prefer to keep it more vague?
-Name: not sure yet; Probably High Altitude Gunship ("Deploy the HAG!") or an animal as designation (probably a bird of prey. Eagle, falcon harrier, buzzard, hawk, something like that. What would you like best or find easiest to remember?
Your gunship sounds acceptable too. Though, it may have limited use depending on the situation. But still, sounds acceptable. You might want to add on a box of tungsten rods for carpet bombing.
The Painsuit. Don't shoot me yet.For the ivan treatment eh? Well, It might work, but I feel like you might be surprised at the result. Remember, the ivan treatment modifies the body to deal with damage. Honestly it would probably just modify the body in such a way that it smashed out of the suit.
Basically it is a system built around bare exoskeleton. It breaks wearer's joints by bending them backwards repeatedly until it doesn't have enough strength to do so or until they don't break anymore.
Few weak lasers positioned around to cut and burn flesh, rigged to use exoskeleton's power source.
Medical system loaded with poisons and acids to inject or evaporate into breathable form.
Pistons to break major bones, ribcage and spine repeatedly.
Serrated spikes to impale and tear flesh and organs.
User wears it before being dropped on mission site and by time he gets there he's beefed up to handle most of basic forms of damage. Not intented to wear during mission.
I know I'm on a mission that has technically already started, but I'd just like to ask a question about a certain medical concept: Organ Printing (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_printing)See, fleshknitter pumps in undifferentiated cells that then rapidly differentiate and plug up holes and maybe even restore minor degrees of function due to sheer luck. The scaffolding would get them in the right shape and all, but thats generally not enough. What about all the extra cellular matrix? Or the Epidermal layers lining the inside or outside of various organs, or layers of different cells in general. I mean, you spray it in the lung, it doesn't necessarily form the alveoli pointed in the right direction, or even form them at all. Muscle cells are quite long and need to be aligned, skin needs anchoring points and bloodflow from underneath.
You said the problem with fleshknitter was that it grew things very quickly but didn't provide any structure for the cells.
What if there was a device a medic could carry that could "sculpt" organ scaffolding that is then pumped full of fleshknitter? Then the resulting cells would have a scaffold, something that would guide them, help them form the proper structure, the proper type of cells.
The advantage is that you have two tools ("printer" and fleshknitter can) that can heal most kinds of injury. (Although you'd probably need some tools from an advanced kit as well to make your job easier and more likely to succeed, since it would be better if you clean the wound and stop the bleeding and prepare the area.)
The disadvantages are that it takes more time than merely injecting some fleshknitter in the wound (printing an entire arm would take forever and probably drain the entire printer cartridge, but merely reconnecting a limb or fixing an eye would be relatively quick). It's also a sensitive process that requires the patient to remain reasonably still and the environment relatively safe. And, even though the software in the tool handles many things like analyzing the shape of the wound and knowing how to print certain kinds and configurations of flesh, the medic is responsible for making the ultimate choices about what kind of cell goes where and what shape the organ should have (meaning that with a bad roll, you might end up with an eyball in your guts). So it's much like real surgery in a way.
Overall, not as good, quick or easy to use as Xan's body and it can only work on fleshies, not robots, but it might be cheap enough and versatile enough to justify its existence. I could see it as an upgrade for a medic who already has an advanced kit and a can of fleshknitter.
Fleshknitter is basically a big benign tumor we use to plug holes. It's not lung in a can.
I have an idea that needs work, and informations.
is it possible to make a self sustaining manipulator that anchors an item to a specific object and completely elimates that objects weight in relation to its anchor?
If so how large would the manipulator be?
If the object being swung around was reduced in size would this affect the end price?
Basically, is it possible to make an automanipulator that lets you swing a battlesuit sword around as if it only weighed as much as a flashlight by metaphysically anchoring it 15cm beyond the crosspiece of a sword hilt?
And would exchanging the BS sword for a hexbug volleyball make it cheaper?
also you told me in the past that while we cannot use GPS coordinates for space magic we can use special objects to replace the space magic origin co-ordinates so that the manipulator itself doesnt need to be re-oriented.
How much would one of these space magic targetting sensors cost?
How far can they be moved from the manipulator and still function?
"infinite" automated manips exist, they're used in ships like the sword for generating gravity and increasing the power of the guns, but they're very large. Far too large and expensive for any individual.
Also, I have no memory of saying that or what it would entail. You'd have to link me to my post.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 23, 2015, 12:12:15 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 23, 2015, 03:05:00 pm
Quote
Your gunship sounds acceptable too. Though, it may have limited use depending on the situation. But still, sounds acceptable. You might want to add on a box of tungsten rods for carpet bombing.
Yeah, it'd be very limited in the amount of actual missions it can be used on, but would offer cheap and indirect firepower in return (Heabi mission would've been good :v ). Also, you sure about the rods? My idea was to use the missiles and arm them with nukes (using Simus' 'clean nuke' if needed) because I thought that'd be more cost-effective and less bulky (and a couple megaton nukes can bomb a pretty big carpet). I mean, one'd need to accelerate the rods to immense speeds to use them for carpet bombing, no? Needing enormous accelerators and/or spess mahics? Or am I missing something here?
EDIT:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Should we precisely define what amount of vouchers gets you what, or would you prefer to keep it more vague?
new idea: electronade
This is basically a non-'refillable' electricity grenade. Take the tesla arc electricity-throwing mechanism. Make it shorter and less focused so it throws electricity all around it, in an area of a few meters or so. Make it have a blueshard battery. Bigger than a regular nade, more like a grapefruit I think (Though i don't know for sure). Components are cheap and burn out through usage, should last about as long as the battery. Give it three round dials: one for % power used, one for time delay and one for how long it works. Has small battery life indicator.
different intensities:
0,5%: taser power, stuns unarmored people but doesn’t kill or harm them
2% kills unarmored people
5% kills lightly-to-medium armored people
10% full power, kills anything not very well insulated against electricity
Time dial indicates how long it works before shutting off. So at 0,5% power for ten seconds will make it work at stun intensity for 10 seconds and uses up 5% of the batteries' power. After that, it can be reused (until the battery dies out). Time delay says how long it waits to start working to prevent people zapping themselves (standard is 3 sec). Does this thing make sense? How many could we get for a token? Is 2 for a token reasonable?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on July 23, 2015, 08:12:35 pm
im probably just misinterpreting a vague memory.
Post by: Xantalos on July 24, 2015, 01:01:16 am
Ah, I see. So the problem is that this is a purely chaotic random thing. You'd need something more guided, something that will not only make the cells be in the right place but also make the right kind of cells appear Well, I guess that will require more research.Yep.
Absolutely.
Mmm hmm.
:P
Saltiness aside, would the direction of essentially imprinting the design of human bodies into the substance so it can identity where it is and grow the appropriate things work?
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 24, 2015, 01:33:34 am
Normally you'd just inject the right kind of cells in the right places in the scaffold and let them multiply (I think, going from memory here) but that would take too long to be of any use.
Post by: Xantalos on July 24, 2015, 01:39:55 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 24, 2015, 02:17:05 am
The reason I'm trying to tinker it like this is because it represents an upgrade to flesh knitter, it represents a natural progression for medics: medic gets emergency kit -> medic gets advanced kit -> (here should be a branch representing choice between flesh knitter tank and surgery kit) -> (organ printer for flesh knitter branch, more limbs for surgery kit branch)
Of course, nothing beats the combo of medic+exo+organo-dominator amp+can of fleshknitter for extra easy to process flesh. You should get that if you're ever allowed to get amps again.
Post by: AkumaKasai on July 24, 2015, 02:30:35 am
Of course, nothing beats the combo of medic+exo+organo-dominator amp+can of fleshknitter for extra easy to process flesh. You should get that if you're ever allowed to get amps again.No he should not.
Post by: Xantalos on July 24, 2015, 02:45:40 am
Also if things go like I hope I won't need that particular amp.
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 24, 2015, 02:50:15 am
Post by: Xantalos on July 24, 2015, 02:51:40 am
Post by: Gentlefish on July 24, 2015, 04:54:40 am
In that case it might be quicker to just "print" specialized flesh knitter directly, unless there's an organ that requires scaffolding to be ”sculpted". Which would probably make it more expensive, since you'd need multiple cans of flesh knitter.
The reason I'm trying to tinker it like this is because it represents an upgrade to flesh knitter, it represents a natural progression for medics: medic gets emergency kit -> medic gets advanced kit -> (here should be a branch representing choice between flesh knitter tank and surgery kit) -> (organ printer for flesh knitter branch, more limbs for surgery kit branch)
Of course, nothing beats the combo of medic+exo+organo-dominator amp+can of fleshknitter for extra easy to process flesh. You should get that if you're ever allowed to get amps again.
I think that's where Ryan's planning on going :P
Post by: HavingPhun on July 30, 2015, 08:22:47 pm
I mean, one'd need to accelerate the rods to immense speeds to use them for carpet bombing, no? Needing enormous accelerators and/or spess mahics? Or am I missing something here?
I think the idea with tungsten rods is that you release them from orbit and gravity accelerates them to a high speed. Due to their high mass and speed they don't need any explosives either. Though, the planet would have to have sufficient gravity, so it might not work on asteroids unless the ship is already moving itself. At least, this is how they claim that they would work on Earth.
Post by: spazyak on July 30, 2015, 09:39:11 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on July 31, 2015, 10:02:59 am
I mean, one'd need to accelerate the rods to immense speeds to use them for carpet bombing, no? Needing enormous accelerators and/or spess mahics? Or am I missing something here?
I think the idea with tungsten rods is that you release them from orbit and gravity accelerates them to a high speed. Due to their high mass and speed they don't need any explosives either. Though, the planet would have to have sufficient gravity, so it might not work on asteroids unless the ship is already moving itself. At least, this is how they claim that they would work on Earth.
I dunno if they'd be worth it when used like that. I mean, it's a High-altitude gunship, not an orbital warship, and normally would still operate inside the atmosphere. Longer range is possible, but then you loose accuracy, and the main use for this is precise artillery support, not indiscriminate bombardment, though when that is needed I think a complement of nukes should do the trick very well in a pinch. But if the main goal is glassing a site, then an orbital warship using a big rail/coilgun seems better.
From this video: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/reel-physics/7296-GI-Joe-Retaliation-Tungsten-Rod-Drop
A tungsten rod of 8500 kg going 8700 m/s from an altitude of 800 km gives 32800 mJ, or 78 ton (0.78 kiloton) TNT equivalent.
If we assume a gunship is flying at, say, 100 km (a Lockheed AC-130 gunship has a service ceiling of about 9 km, by the way, and 100 km is the Kármán line on earth, aka upper limit of the atmosphere), and that it wouldn't be using rods of 8.5 ton a piece (that lockheed gunship only weighs about 55 ton itself), these rods would have substantially less energy. I could do a quick calculation, but you get the idea.
In the armory you can buy a 1 kiltoton nuke for just 7 tokens. The bomb on Hiroshima was 12-15 kilotons. So really, when not using very big coilguns to actually accelerate your ammo to high speeds (which would cost a lot and probably be big and heavy, an issue for ships in atmosphere), just using nukes is much more efficient (a nuke is a lot of power in a relatively small package).
Post by: Parisbre56 on July 31, 2015, 12:47:50 pm
1. How much can it change your appearance? Can it make you look like an alien that has eight legs?
2. Can it change your appearance to someone whose existence you know, but whose exact appearance you don't know? For example, can you think "make me look like those trooper's commanding officer" even though you've never seen said commanding officer?
3. Does it also affect other senses? Would it, for example, affect how your voice sounds or how you smell or how your clothes feel?
4. How much does it confuse senses? If I disguise myself into someone that has only one arm and someone tries to touch my arm stump, will they think they are touching my arm stump or will the illusion break?
5. Can you give me a rough estimate of the distance it can affect other people's minds? Will it affect a security guard watching a video feed of me while he's standing behind the armoured door I'm trying to get him to open, for example? How about a sod trying to snipe me?
6. Can it only affect people viewing me in real-time or can I affect a recording of me wearing the halo if I'm nearby?
7. Can I project different illusions to different people?
8. Can it make you look like an inanimate object? Like a water cooler?
9. How large or small can it make you look like? Rough estimate, no need for exact numbers.
10. Can it alter how you perceive yourself or at least let you know what others are seeing?
11. Can it be used to alter what equipment others think you have, so that you can use it to make someone think you're holding a valid ID or a police badge?
Asking to see if it's worth giving my Exo backup character some charisma. Such thoughts always come to mind when Flint lands in the next deathtrap.
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 09:56:39 am
Post by: Dutrius on August 01, 2015, 10:15:30 am
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 10:29:48 am
Post by: renegadelobster on August 01, 2015, 11:18:45 am
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 11:45:00 am
Post by: renegadelobster on August 01, 2015, 12:04:51 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 12:30:31 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on August 01, 2015, 12:38:12 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 12:50:08 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on August 01, 2015, 01:34:47 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on August 01, 2015, 02:24:06 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 02:39:44 pm
Will this series of commands work, or do I need to be more specific?
Post by: Xantalos on August 01, 2015, 04:16:31 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 01, 2015, 04:22:55 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 04:28:00 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on August 01, 2015, 04:29:50 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 01, 2015, 04:48:21 pm
Space magic was the only thing that I could think of, where would I get a laser like that?The point of Tinker is either to think of a theoretical design and find out its feasibility and cost, attempt the modification and recombination of already existing equipment, test equipment without buying it, find out more about equipment or a combination of the above. Once you figure out what you want/need and how much it costs, you can buy it from the Armory (or the parts you need, since the armory can get you almost anything) or try to get Hephaestus to mass produce it.
So there's no need to worry about where the parts will come from (although keep in mind that recombining existing equipment is usually cheaper than creating or ordering custom parts and equipment). The Armory will provide them. Just focus on making a good and efficient design.
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 05:16:44 pm
Carve a hopper with a hatch on top, that is not quite as deep as the barrel and is slightly smaller then the mold below into the block of metal between the stock and the main body of the gun.
Carve out a space behind the hopper on the same level for a laser. Bore a hole between the hopper and the laser head so that the laser can melt the metal inside the hopper.
under neath the hopper there is a mold for a standard gauss rifle round. the mold is connected to the hopper by a small tunnel with a valve that when turned on allows molten metal to flow from the hopper into the mold. the mold is on the same level as the barrel carve out the metal separating the barrel and the front of the mold and replace it with a door that moves up and down. At the back of the mold there is a piston that push the round out of the mold and into the barrel.
Here is the order of the mechanical actions that happen. The hatch on top of the hopper opened. Scrap metal is loaded into the hopper. when the hatch is closed the valve separating the hopper from the mold is turned off. And the laser heats the metal until it is molten. The valve then turns to the on position dumping the molten metal into the mold. The valve is turned to the off position. The round in the mold is allowed to cool. Once the round is cool if there is no round in the barrel the door in front of the mold opens and the piston at the back of the mold pushes the round. If there is a round in the barrel the hatch on top of the hopper gets locked so that you can not put any more metal in.
When you pull the trigger it fires the round. And if there is a cooled round in the mold. It will open the door between the mold and the barrel, and then the piston at the back of the mold pushes the round into the barrel and unlocks the hatch on top of the hopper.
Fill the hopper with ferrous scrap metal, wait for it to make the round and then test fire the weapon at 100 percent power.
Then try to front load the gun using a premade Gauss rifle slug. by switching the polarity of the coils. placing the slug at the front of the barrel and firing the weapon at 2 percent power. Then put the polarity back to normal and fire the weapon at 100 percent power.
EDIT: oops I missed the clause for pulling the trigger.
EDIT 2: I forgot to say to fire the weapon.
EDIT 3: clarified, and added the ability to front load the gun
I tired to be as specific as I could be and make it very clear how everything works. Did I make any glaring errors that would prevent this from working? Does any one have a suggestion for how to improve it?
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 05:22:58 pm
Post by: Dutrius on August 01, 2015, 05:28:54 pm
Oh, just to point out, gauss rifles will only fire slugs made from a ferromagnetic metal.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 01, 2015, 05:33:37 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 05:33:59 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 05:34:54 pm
Note to self: We can levitate frogs with magnets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E). Make gauss frog gun.
I approve this!!!!!!
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 05:39:43 pm
Post by: Dutrius on August 01, 2015, 05:45:44 pm
Note to self: We can levitate frogs with magnets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E). Make gauss frog gun.
That is a 10 Tesla magnetic coil though, and it relies on the fact that water is diamagnetic.
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 06:29:19 pm
Post by: Dutrius on August 01, 2015, 06:40:25 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 06:54:58 pm
Post by: Dutrius on August 01, 2015, 07:46:50 pm
Post by: Urist McCoder on August 01, 2015, 08:02:22 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 01, 2015, 08:16:00 pm
Also, it's always a good idea to describe what you want to do in a concise manner, giving only the info needed to understand the basics of its purpose and function, before going into the specifics. It helps people better understand what you want to do. Which means it also helps piecewise understand what you want to do without him having to read a giant wall of text. Piecewise cares more about what something does and the basics of how it does that and less about how its insides look.
Post by: spazyak on August 01, 2015, 08:57:48 pm
can we make a frog shot, held tpgether with ribbitsNote to self: We can levitate frogs with magnets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E). Make gauss frog gun.
I approve this!!!!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on August 01, 2015, 10:34:48 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on August 02, 2015, 12:36:38 am
We do have a material called sharkplate that regenerates itself by absorbing carbon. You could use that to make bullets in the field.
Sharkplate repairs only itself. Sharkmist instead can build things, but you'll need a vat to contain it and god forbid if you set it loose. And that's not exactly cheap either. Remember Skylar's limb groving vat costs 10 tokens.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 02, 2015, 01:35:11 am
Post by: tryrar on August 02, 2015, 02:01:37 am
The limb vat was tryar and my project, right? Still gotta wrap that up.
Yeah, the LimbBody kinda sucked the wind out of that :P. If you wanna finish it up RC, go ahead.
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 02, 2015, 06:25:54 am
Post by: piecewise on August 08, 2015, 12:59:46 am
QuoteYour gunship sounds acceptable too. Though, it may have limited use depending on the situation. But still, sounds acceptable. You might want to add on a box of tungsten rods for carpet bombing.
Yeah, it'd be very limited in the amount of actual missions it can be used on, but would offer cheap and indirect firepower in return (Heabi mission would've been good :v ). Also, you sure about the rods? My idea was to use the missiles and arm them with nukes (using Simus' 'clean nuke' if needed) because I thought that'd be more cost-effective and less bulky (and a couple megaton nukes can bomb a pretty big carpet). I mean, one'd need to accelerate the rods to immense speeds to use them for carpet bombing, no? Needing enormous accelerators and/or spess mahics? Or am I missing something here?
EDIT:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Should we precisely define what amount of vouchers gets you what, or would you prefer to keep it more vague?
new idea: electronade
This is basically a non-'refillable' electricity grenade. Take the tesla arc electricity-throwing mechanism. Make it shorter and less focused so it throws electricity all around it, in an area of a few meters or so. Make it have a blueshard battery. Bigger than a regular nade, more like a grapefruit I think (Though i don't know for sure). Components are cheap and burn out through usage, should last about as long as the battery. Give it three round dials: one for % power used, one for time delay and one for how long it works. Has small battery life indicator.
different intensities:
0,5%: taser power, stuns unarmored people but doesn’t kill or harm them
2% kills unarmored people
5% kills lightly-to-medium armored people
10% full power, kills anything not very well insulated against electricity
Time dial indicates how long it works before shutting off. So at 0,5% power for ten seconds will make it work at stun intensity for 10 seconds and uses up 5% of the batteries' power. After that, it can be reused (until the battery dies out). Time delay says how long it waits to start working to prevent people zapping themselves (standard is 3 sec). Does this thing make sense? How many could we get for a token? Is 2 for a token reasonable?
I thought the ship was low orbit, never mind.
Eh...yeah, we should. But lets do that as soon as someone actually shows interest in using it. Till then...lazy.
Electronade sounds fine, but I think we might need to up the % costs. Probably double them. 1,4,10, 20%. Even like that it's a 5 time use grenade at full power or a basically infinite use tossable taser.
Some questions about the limits of the black halo. No need to answer all of the below if you don't have time.1. You can alter your appearance to be basically anything, though the farther you get from human, and the more detailed you are, the more difficult it is.
1. How much can it change your appearance? Can it make you look like an alien that has eight legs?
2. Can it change your appearance to someone whose existence you know, but whose exact appearance you don't know? For example, can you think "make me look like those trooper's commanding officer" even though you've never seen said commanding officer?
3. Does it also affect other senses? Would it, for example, affect how your voice sounds or how you smell or how your clothes feel?
4. How much does it confuse senses? If I disguise myself into someone that has only one arm and someone tries to touch my arm stump, will they think they are touching my arm stump or will the illusion break?
5. Can you give me a rough estimate of the distance it can affect other people's minds? Will it affect a security guard watching a video feed of me while he's standing behind the armoured door I'm trying to get him to open, for example? How about a sod trying to snipe me?
6. Can it only affect people viewing me in real-time or can I affect a recording of me wearing the halo if I'm nearby?
7. Can I project different illusions to different people?
8. Can it make you look like an inanimate object? Like a water cooler?
9. How large or small can it make you look like? Rough estimate, no need for exact numbers.
10. Can it alter how you perceive yourself or at least let you know what others are seeing?
11. Can it be used to alter what equipment others think you have, so that you can use it to make someone think you're holding a valid ID or a police badge?
Asking to see if it's worth giving my Exo backup character some charisma. Such thoughts always come to mind when Flint lands in the next deathtrap.
2. Ah, interesting question. No. It effects the target's perception, but it doesn't rely on their comprehension. In other words, you don't present their mind with some sort of incomprehensible image which they then unconsciously fill in as what you want them to. You have to mentally create the image, and they see it.
3.If you extend it to those senses, then yes. But that takes extra effort.
4. They'll see you point a stump at them and then feel something touch them. The illusion never breaks, so to speak, they'll keep seeing you as that as long as you keep the illusion going, but they'd probably wonder whats going on.
5. Anyone who can see you could theoretically be effected. But that example of yours wouldn't work because, like I said, it doesn't work on cameras. Someone watching you through a camera would just see you.
6. See previous.
7.Yes, but that will be harder.
8. Yes.
9. Well, as small as you want basically, and theoretically as large as you want, but the larger you get, the more area you need to image in detail, so the larger you get the harder it is to do.
10. Well, you'd know how you look because you'd be the one creating the image.
11. Yes.
here is my new plan, it is for a rifle that melts down any ferrous metal and then shoots it at variable ranges. Call up the schematic for a Gauss rifle. Remove any loading mechanism and repair any hole once this is done. Add a small dial on the side that controls the strength of the magnets in the barrel, and a switch that flips the polarity. Separate the stock of the rifle form the body and add a solid block of metal the width and height width of the body of the gun where you separated the stock form the gun. the block is about 5 inches long. Weld any attachment points need to attach the stock to the end of the new block of metal.A big wall of text as your first post in tinker? You'll fit in here just fine. (https://img.4plebs.org/boards/x/image/1365/38/1365383097497.jpg)
Carve a hopper with a hatch on top, that is not quite as deep as the barrel and is slightly smaller then the mold below into the block of metal between the stock and the main body of the gun.
Carve out a space behind the hopper on the same level for a laser. Bore a hole between the hopper and the laser head so that the laser can melt the metal inside the hopper.
under neath the hopper there is a mold for a standard gauss rifle round. the mold is connected to the hopper by a small tunnel with a valve that when turned on allows molten metal to flow from the hopper into the mold. the mold is on the same level as the barrel carve out the metal separating the barrel and the front of the mold and replace it with a door that moves up and down. At the back of the mold there is a piston that push the round out of the mold and into the barrel.
Here is the order of the mechanical actions that happen. The hatch on top of the hopper opened. Scrap metal is loaded into the hopper. when the hatch is closed the valve separating the hopper from the mold is turned off. And the laser heats the metal until it is molten. The valve then turns to the on position dumping the molten metal into the mold. The valve is turned to the off position. The round in the mold is allowed to cool. Once the round is cool if there is no round in the barrel the door in front of the mold opens and the piston at the back of the mold pushes the round. If there is a round in the barrel the hatch on top of the hopper gets locked so that you can not put any more metal in.
When you pull the trigger it fires the round. And if there is a cooled round in the mold. It will open the door between the mold and the barrel, and then the piston at the back of the mold pushes the round into the barrel and unlocks the hatch on top of the hopper.
Fill the hopper with ferrous scrap metal, wait for it to make the round and then test fire the weapon at 100 percent power.
Then try to front load the gun using a premade Gauss rifle slug. by switching the polarity of the coils. placing the slug at the front of the barrel and firing the weapon at 2 percent power. Then put the polarity back to normal and fire the weapon at 100 percent power.
EDIT: oops I missed the clause for pulling the trigger.
EDIT 2: I forgot to say to fire the weapon.
EDIT 3: clarified, and added the ability to front load the gun
I tired to be as specific as I could be and make it very clear how everything works. Did I make any glaring errors that would prevent this from working? Does any one have a suggestion for how to improve it?
For the future, you don't have to go super in depth if you don't want to. See the post from radiocontrolled up on top of this one? See How he describes the Electronade? Thats fine too.
Now then...Well first, I'd say you should look into induction heating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iBztmCuwgk
You can melt magnetic metals using nothing but copper coils and electricity. Which is probably gonna be a lot safer and easier then using a laser.
The issues I can see coming from this are as follows:
1. Getting the shell to take on a perfect, uniform shape will probably be difficult. This will mean that these rounds will probably be less accurate. Not to mention you might get non-magnetic metals mixed in as alloys which would also cause uneven magnetic effects on the bullet.
2. If you use multiple kinds of metals to make the bullet then you can get lots of problems. The mixing of the metals might not be perfect so you could get unevenly weighted shots, which wouldn't fly straight, or you might have the coils work unevenly on the shot as it accelerates down the barrel. Which could also cause problems.
3. There's gonna be a limit on the size of the pieces of things you can stick into the hopper, which is gonna limit the amount of material you can melt, which will limit the speed of production of shells.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 11, 2015, 04:55:59 am
Quote
I thought the ship was low orbit, never mind.
Well, it could operate in low orbit, or even a high orbit, no reason it couldn't (it has the engines and such for it). The reason it operates lower normally is to increase accuracy and reduce target acquisition time. Something outside the atmosphere 500 km away would have more trouble aiming (or need significantly more time) at a target than something inside the atmosphere 50 km away. And again, the main goal is precision fire support, not indiscriminate bombardment. But, if it does need to do that, a couple megaton nukes on missiles should do the job very well, while not needing a lot of space or being overly expensive. Unlike, as far as I know, the gauss accelerators and space magic needed to speed up a kinetic projectile to the needed velocities.
That makes sense, right? Or am I mistaken somewhere?
Because, as sad as it is to acknowledge it, just dropping big rods of tungsten isn't all that impressive. Sure, it still gives a big boom, but not nearly as big as a decent nuke. If you really want to use this kinda tech for major devastation, then you need to accelerate them a lot. Not just shoot them, but really get into significant fractions of c. Otherwise, nukes are probably more cost-effective. And if I'm not mistaken, getting this kind of speeds for a big mass costs a whole lot and isn't small.
Quote
Eh...yeah, we should. But lets do that as soon as someone actually shows interest in using it. Till then...lazy.Isn't this exactly the kind of thing the council could do? After all, it's pure balancing, so you wouldn't even need to do a lot, just give us the green light.
Quote
Electronade sounds fine, but I think we might need to up the % costs. Probably double them. 1,4,10, 20%. Even like that it's a 5 time use grenade at full power or a basically infinite use tossable taser.Sure, that sounds fair. Anything else, or can this then go on to Hep approval and armory inclusion?
Post by: HavingPhun on August 11, 2015, 07:44:42 am
The basic idea is to take a MCP-I (or higher) suit and line the arms and legs with a thin layer of synthflesh. There would be a cortical jack installed on the user's head, so they could coordinate the movements of the synthflesh with their own body.
The thickness of the synthflesh could be variable, having a thicker layer of it be more expensive. Of course it would only be so effective, at some point a synthflesh body is a better choice.
Cost?: 4-5 tokens for 1/3 inch of synthflesh?
Questions: Is this feasible? Would it cost more than I am thinking, and would it function the way that I described it? Would the benefits even be worth the extra cost, and would there really be any noticeable improvement in strength and agility?
Post by: Nikitian on August 11, 2015, 07:54:45 am
(That is, of course, if you were fine with the lower end of the cost RC suggested. If the higher - no less than a token per electro'nade - I humbly withdraw this request.)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 11, 2015, 09:19:47 am
As the representative of Heph Administration responsible for design approval, I should also ask: Can the electro'nade be made three for a token, like all standard grenades? For the sake of Brisant compatibility and standardisation.I doubt a 5-use lethal or 100-use taser grenade is going to be less than a token each.
(That is, of course, if you were fine with the lower end of the cost RC suggested. If the higher - no less than a token per electro'nade - I humbly withdraw this request.)
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on August 11, 2015, 09:30:12 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 11, 2015, 10:29:36 am
Post by: Devastator on August 14, 2015, 11:33:54 am
Smoke isn't much of a problem. Have a number of infared LEDs into a few small lamps, and use an infared camera to build up an image. Have them be deployable, so you can take the little lamps and cameras out of the box and put them where you want coverage.
To further coverage, use a blacklight emitter. This will probably have to be flourescent, as it's cheaper to make blacklights like that. Include a UV camera as well.
That should take care of smoke and darkness. I'm afraid there's no real way to see in darkness without a lamp of some kind, depending on it's range.
Radar is a bit more tricky, as with the longer-wavelength light, you need larger pickups to handle them. Most of the box would have to be the emitter for the radar system, with a pair of long, telescopic rods and amplifiers to act as the pickups. These would be networked together to provide directional coverage. It would be directional, but it should be more than sufficient. Accuracy would be limited somewhat by putting them on people, instead of a fixed stand, but it would be better than nothing.. and a collapsable stand should be included, so you can set it up properly. It would also help if you are using it to penetrate walls.
So, in short, make a box around a radar emitter and a collapsable stand for the recievers. Let the recievers be a pair of telescopic rods with amplifiers. It could be attached to a frame or carried by a person, but with limited accuracy due to the somewhat irregular movement of a person. It should be, at reasonable power levels, capable of detecting objects on the other side of narrow walls.
This box should include two IR lamps, as well as at least one IR camera. It should also include two UV lamps, and a UV camera.
Pickups from the cameras can be handled as normal, but the radar needs a fair amount of processing power behind it to make useful returns, so it'll need a small computer and something to display it's readout on. The radar will also be directional.
Audio isn't really useful. Bullets and lasers travel faster than sound, after all, and pointing a directional microphone requires you to know what direction it's coming from so you can point it in the right way. Things would be different underwater, but making a sonar box similar to the radar box isn't too hard, if that should become necessary.
As for power consumption, the whole thing should be able to run for about an hour on two or three of the laser rifle batteries.
Post by: piecewise on August 15, 2015, 01:31:48 pm
QuoteI thought the ship was low orbit, never mind.
Well, it could operate in low orbit, or even a high orbit, no reason it couldn't (it has the engines and such for it). The reason it operates lower normally is to increase accuracy and reduce target acquisition time. Something outside the atmosphere 500 km away would have more trouble aiming (or need significantly more time) at a target than something inside the atmosphere 50 km away. And again, the main goal is precision fire support, not indiscriminate bombardment. But, if it does need to do that, a couple megaton nukes on missiles should do the job very well, while not needing a lot of space or being overly expensive. Unlike, as far as I know, the gauss accelerators and space magic needed to speed up a kinetic projectile to the needed velocities.
That makes sense, right? Or am I mistaken somewhere?
Because, as sad as it is to acknowledge it, just dropping big rods of tungsten isn't all that impressive. Sure, it still gives a big boom, but not nearly as big as a decent nuke. If you really want to use this kinda tech for major devastation, then you need to accelerate them a lot. Not just shoot them, but really get into significant fractions of c. Otherwise, nukes are probably more cost-effective. And if I'm not mistaken, getting this kind of speeds for a big mass costs a whole lot and isn't small.QuoteEh...yeah, we should. But lets do that as soon as someone actually shows interest in using it. Till then...lazy.Isn't this exactly the kind of thing the council could do? After all, it's pure balancing, so you wouldn't even need to do a lot, just give us the green light.QuoteElectronade sounds fine, but I think we might need to up the % costs. Probably double them. 1,4,10, 20%. Even like that it's a 5 time use grenade at full power or a basically infinite use tossable taser.Sure, that sounds fair. Anything else, or can this then go on to Hep approval and armory inclusion?
Yeah, that makes sense.
If you guys wanna work on it, thats fine. You don't need my green light to work on things, just to implement them. Coming up with ideas for how something should work or be balanced is fine so long as you realize I might say no at the end.
I think it's fairly straight forward; you can move it on in the process.
I had an idea, though I am not sure if there would really be of any signifigant benefit other than a very slight increase in strength and or agility.It's feasible but It seems pretty complex and expensive for something that you could probably just do with higher powered actuators for less money.
The basic idea is to take a MCP-I (or higher) suit and line the arms and legs with a thin layer of synthflesh. There would be a cortical jack installed on the user's head, so they could coordinate the movements of the synthflesh with their own body.
The thickness of the synthflesh could be variable, having a thicker layer of it be more expensive. Of course it would only be so effective, at some point a synthflesh body is a better choice.
Cost?: 4-5 tokens for 1/3 inch of synthflesh?
Questions: Is this feasible? Would it cost more than I am thinking, and would it function the way that I described it? Would the benefits even be worth the extra cost, and would there really be any noticeable improvement in strength and agility?
As the representative of Heph Administration responsible for design approval, I should also ask: Can the electro'nade be made three for a token, like all standard grenades? For the sake of Brisant compatibility and standardisation.As currently designed? No. But something like it? Maybe.
(That is, of course, if you were fine with the lower end of the cost RC suggested. If the higher - no less than a token per electro'nade - I humbly withdraw this request.)
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 16, 2015, 07:28:45 am
This is assuming linear power to price but you know what I mean.
Post by: HavingPhun on August 16, 2015, 12:05:03 pm
Quote
It's feasible but It seems pretty complex and expensive for something that you could probably just do with higher powered actuators for less money.
Hmm, since I assume my current character is dead, and my next would be a melee character, I am basically trying to create a suit that allows incredible agiliy. Somewhat inspired by the Arbiter of Peace. One problem with having a very high speed exoskeleton, would be that it would move faster than the standard human can react. Even though this is more of a question for the on ship thread, is there any way we could get an implant that would basically replace the users nervous system with tons of fiber optic wires, and a coprocessor in the brain in order to improve speed and dexterity? Maybe 8-10 tokens?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 16, 2015, 03:08:05 pm
Perhaps we could get a new function for it?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on August 16, 2015, 03:21:13 pm
Well we already had the nuerophotonic spinal column for 14 tokens, but i think iit lost its function in the transition to the new system...All I can see it doing is increase reflexes and perhaps resistance against broken spines.
Perhaps we could get a new function for it?
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 16, 2015, 04:14:30 pm
EDIT: And a clarification to the Black Halo. Could I use it to deprive people of senses, instead of altering them? Could I, for example, make them NOT feel my hand as I pickpocket them?
And would they have to be looking at me for this to happen or just be ABLE TO see me, while not necessarily seeing me? I mean, it won't break if they blink or close their eyes or turn their head away from me, right?
And how far does the camera thing go? Is it the moment the "illusion image" "passes through" something electronic it turns normal or something a bit more vague, like "as long as the image reaches their optic nerves directly, it can affect robotic eye replacements"? For example, would the illusion affect someone in a robobody/synthfleshbody? Someone in a battlesuit? Someone with their faceplate down? Someone using camEyes? Someone using camEyes to look at you through a wall?
Could Miyamoto wear one and make his Avatar look tiny? (The most stealthy Avatar! Unless you're using cameras.)
Post by: Devastator on August 16, 2015, 05:22:10 pm
QuoteIt's feasible but It seems pretty complex and expensive for something that you could probably just do with higher powered actuators for less money.
Hmm, since I assume my current character is dead, and my next would be a melee character, I am basically trying to create a suit that allows incredible agiliy. Somewhat inspired by the Arbiter of Peace. One problem with having a very high speed exoskeleton, would be that it would move faster than the standard human can react.
There's also the issue with momentum. If the suit pulps the body inside it, it isn't much good.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 17, 2015, 07:01:54 am
Quote
I think it's fairly straight forward; you can move it on in the process.And it's 2 for a token, right? Like what was said initially?
Quote
If you guys wanna work on it, thats fine. You don't need my green light to work on things, just to implement them. Coming up with ideas for how something should work or be balanced is fine so long as you realize I might say no at the end.Well, true, but it's nice to know beforehand what 'order of magnitude' we are working with, so to speak, to prevent wasting our time.
Anyways, I'll see what the council says.
So, that sharkmist limb vat idea from before. Can we finish that up? Most details were worked out already. Here is a preliminary write-up:
Quote
sharkmist vat
cost: 10 tokens
It’s a big vat of sharkmist that can grow any limb or organ, but one vat can only grow 1 thing, and it can only be ‘programmed’ once. Limbs can be made to be usable on both sides of a body however. Usable for both people and robobodies (same kind of limbs can be used for both). 10 tokens, can grow unlimited number of the programmed object, but it needs organic material to refill itself, and it takes a while to grow the items. These limbs, once taken out of their production vat, have limited self-repair capabilities. Needs exoskeleton to carry, battlesuit-level strength is better. Limbs/organs can be grown on-ship and taken on mission, though one should check with pw to the limit one can grow like this. Try not to spill it on the ground, though the sharkmist is modified not to give a grey goo scenario. Nevertheless, bathing in the vat is ill-advised and voids the non-existent warranty.
To prevent people from being cute and 'programming' an entire set of organs and limbs they then separate to get around the 'one vat can only grow 1 thing' rule, the size of what can be grown is limited to about the mass of a big arm or leg.
Post by: NAV on August 18, 2015, 02:08:07 pm
Basically, take 2 robot bodies, butcher them, and combine all the muscle into one massive strand. House that in the central body of the weapon. Have two "arms", like a crossbow. When the muscle contracts it pulls on the arms, leverage happens, and it flings things at a high velocity.
You guys think this an okay idea? Got any better ideas what I could use the robobodies for?
(Funny thing, if this works it won't be the first game where I've made a ballista from robot parts.)
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 18, 2015, 03:15:55 pm
You could make a frankensteinian robobuddy/roboslave out of it, maybe. Then gather scraps and bits from other things and keep expanding it! A gun here, wheels there, you get the idea. You'd still need a controlling unit for it though, a brain of sorts. And now I just so happen to still have a highly advanced robot CPU lying around from M7 I might be willing to sell for a reasonable price...
Post by: NAV on August 18, 2015, 04:12:15 pm
Spoiler: Crappy diagram of how crossbow would work, hope it helps. (click to show/hide)
Grey is the arms
Blue is fulcrums for the arms
Red is MUSCLE
As you can see, when the muscle contracts it moves the arms and fires a projectile.
I dunno if the robot has long stretches of material strong yet flexible enough to use as bow strings.Muscle is not being used as a bowstring.
Quote
And you won't be able to make them contract like a muscle without the normal system for that (nerves firing for fleshy arm, probably an electric signal for a robot. And nutrients to maintain the thing).I can get whatever is needed to power and control the muscles from the robot body. It doesn't require nutrients, only the brain in the robot body needs nutrients.
Quote
And making a long string out of smaller subunits might make it rather weak.Not making a long string, making a thick bundle.
By the way, I'm buying a battlesuit if I survive this mission, and planning on mounting this on one of the arms of the battlesuit.
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 18, 2015, 04:30:16 pm
The nutrient/generator combo of a robobody can last for months. Yours can probably last much more, since you won't be using it continuously and won't be feeding a brain. And those robot models are (I think) operating within safety limits, if you disable those you could get the full strength and speed of the muscles. Probably not as strong as an exoskeleton, but probably faster. Then again, I don't know what that will do to their service life. But even with normal strength, it should be much more powerful than just throwing something.
And you don't need to concern yourself with the number of muscles. You can combine them indirectly through welds or something similar. Parallel muscles increase strength, serial muscles increase length. Just got to make sure to combine them in the right way so that the thing doesn't snap due to differences in length. Ninja'd: For your design, might be easier to make them all parallel.
I assume muscle crossbows gain energy in two ways:
a) by the muscles pulling at the string which in turn pulls an elastic material that forms the front part of the bow (don't know the name), thus storing energy (you can also utilize some sort of lever or gear system between the muscle and the string that will reduce the speed with which you load an arrow but allow you to use less muscles to do so, perhaps getting inspiration by steam train engines)
b) by the muscles forming the string contracting, thus lessening the length of the string, similar to how a slingshot works, thus further increasing the energy provided to the bolt on top of the energy stored in the bent part in front of the bow (only problem with this is that it might stress the weapon too much).
Both of those can probably be achieved without any major problems, assuming you can keep it from ripping itself apart. But that's why you have tinker to work out the details before you try it on ship. Find out how strong you can get this thing before it breaks and find out the best way to combine the muscles.
As for controlling them, most muscles use the standard nerve plug architecture used in most prosthetic limbs. Those things that are interchangeable, that allow the same robotic arm to be installed both in a robot and on a human. You just need to study that and find a way to stimulate the muscles you want. Which probably just means testing the current passing through the plugs or looking at their specification in tinker.
Only problem is it wouldn't be very good at penetrating heavy armour (like civil defender's longcoat, although I assume it won't have trouble with the MCPs), but I'm assuming that's not what you want it for. I'm assuming you're looking for something either made for utility or for delivering grenades or special gauss rounds converted to grenades, a cheaper version of the hand cannon.
If you need to penetrate something hard (but again, probably not as hard as most armour) or send something further away, you could use Sean's robomuscle overcharge function to create a sort of overcharge mode, similar to the gauss rifle one.
Ninja'd: Ah, sure, just using it to pull is the easier and more logical solution. But with something like robobody crossbow, I thought you'd want it to look like something a crazy robo-cannibal would make.
And sure, battlesuits are great. Grab a heavy laser one and we'll have one of each. Or a howitzer one, like the one the sods had, essentially a bit below the LESHO one but a bit above the gauss cannon and it doesn't need to lock up to fire, meaning you can keep fighting when losing a limb or in enclosed places.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 18, 2015, 04:48:44 pm
If all the muscles in your body could pull in a single direction you could lift 3.5 tons.
Portable ballistae anyone?
Post by: piecewise on August 18, 2015, 05:36:37 pm
QuoteIt's feasible but It seems pretty complex and expensive for something that you could probably just do with higher powered actuators for less money.
Hmm, since I assume my current character is dead, and my next would be a melee character, I am basically trying to create a suit that allows incredible agiliy. Somewhat inspired by the Arbiter of Peace. One problem with having a very high speed exoskeleton, would be that it would move faster than the standard human can react. Even though this is more of a question for the on ship thread, is there any way we could get an implant that would basically replace the users nervous system with tons of fiber optic wires, and a coprocessor in the brain in order to improve speed and dexterity? Maybe 8-10 tokens?
Well we already had the nuerophotonic spinal column for 14 tokens, but i think iit lost its function in the transition to the new system...We could indeed change the effect of the spine into allowing faster then normal human reflexes.
Perhaps we could get a new function for it?
Based on the guy the AM spaced during the first mission, I assume the X-ray mode of camEyes can be used to strip-search people and vehicles for concealed objects, like those scanner things they use in some airports and customs stations?Well, no. Actually she ejected him for reasons unrelated to nudity and seeing through clothing.
EDIT: And a clarification to the Black Halo. Could I use it to deprive people of senses, instead of altering them? Could I, for example, make them NOT feel my hand as I pickpocket them?
And would they have to be looking at me for this to happen or just be ABLE TO see me, while not necessarily seeing me? I mean, it won't break if they blink or close their eyes or turn their head away from me, right?
And how far does the camera thing go? Is it the moment the "illusion image" "passes through" something electronic it turns normal or something a bit more vague, like "as long as the image reaches their optic nerves directly, it can affect robotic eye replacements"? For example, would the illusion affect someone in a robobody/synthfleshbody? Someone in a battlesuit? Someone with their faceplate down? Someone using camEyes? Someone using camEyes to look at you through a wall?
Could Miyamoto wear one and make his Avatar look tiny? (The most stealthy Avatar! Unless you're using cameras.)
Maybe.
And no, they just need to be able to perceive you.
Cam eyes will make it impossible to fool their vision, but you can still fool other senses.
He could, so long as it was just people looking at him with their eyes and such.
Lets go with 1 token each as is.QuoteI think it's fairly straight forward; you can move it on in the process.And it's 2 for a token, right? Like what was said initially?QuoteIf you guys wanna work on it, thats fine. You don't need my green light to work on things, just to implement them. Coming up with ideas for how something should work or be balanced is fine so long as you realize I might say no at the end.Well, true, but it's nice to know beforehand what 'order of magnitude' we are working with, so to speak, to prevent wasting our time.
Anyways, I'll see what the council says.
So, that sharkmist limb vat idea from before. Can we finish that up? Most details were worked out already. Here is a preliminary write-up:Quotesharkmist vat
cost: 10 tokens
It’s a big vat of sharkmist that can grow any limb or organ, but one vat can only grow 1 thing, and it can only be ‘programmed’ once. Limbs can be made to be usable on both sides of a body however. Usable for both people and robobodies (same kind of limbs can be used for both). 10 tokens, can grow unlimited number of the programmed object, but it needs organic material to refill itself, and it takes a while to grow the items. These limbs, once taken out of their production vat, have limited self-repair capabilities. Needs exoskeleton to carry, battlesuit-level strength is better. Limbs/organs can be grown on-ship and taken on mission, though one should check with pw to the limit one can grow like this. Try not to spill it on the ground, though the sharkmist is modified not to give a grey goo scenario. Nevertheless, bathing in the vat is ill-advised and voids the non-existent warranty.
To prevent people from being cute and 'programming' an entire set of organs and limbs they then separate to get around the 'one vat can only grow 1 thing' rule, the size of what can be grown is limited to about the mass of a big arm or leg.
Alright; what more do we need to work out do you think? Seems fine to me, though we kinda made the current Xan as an alternative to it.
Post by: NAV on August 18, 2015, 07:14:36 pm
Actually the crossbow is a pretty good idea.I'm using two robot bodies, which are stronger than humans. so more like 8-10 tons.
If all the muscles in your body could pull in a single direction you could lift 3.5 tons.
Portable ballistae anyone?
Portable ballistae! :D
The limiting factor will probably be on how much force the frame can stand, or the speed the muscles can contract, not how much force they can provide.
Only problem is it wouldn't be very good at penetrating heavy armour (like civil defender's longcoat, although I assume it won't have trouble with the MCPs), but I'm assuming that's not what you want it for. I'm assuming you're looking for something either made for utility or for delivering grenades or special gauss rounds converted to grenades, a cheaper version of the hand cannon.I think you're underestimating it a bit. It's a weapon meant for an exoskeleton or battlesuit to wield. Think siege ballistae, not crossbow. Milnoplate would give it trouble, but it could get through a civic defenders longcoat, or at least crush their ribcage and knock them back.
Still mainly a utility weapon and not a battlesuit breaker.
Also planning on adding a winch to it, so it can fire kinamp-tipped harpoons and reel them back in. Or regular harpoons and grappling hooks.
Quote
If you need to penetrate something hard (but again, probably not as hard as most armour) or send something further away, you could use Sean's robomuscle overcharge function to create a sort of overcharge mode, similar to the gauss rifle one.Great idea. Who doesn't love self destructive overdrive modes?
Quote
And sure, battlesuits are great. Grab a heavy laser one and we'll have one of each. Or a howitzer one, like the one the sods had, essentially a bit below the LESHO one but a bit above the gauss cannon and it doesn't need to lock up to fire, meaning you can keep fighting when losing a limb or in enclosed places.Probably gonna get the mobility variant. Flying's just too damn useful.
Btw Radio, Paris, and Unholy thanks for the help designing this.
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 18, 2015, 07:45:36 pm
We should name all battlesuits after mythological figures. We could call yours Enkidu.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on August 18, 2015, 08:11:06 pm
Speed of contraction would only affect the reload speed though?Actually the crossbow is a pretty good idea.I'm using two robot bodies, which are stronger than humans. so more like 8-10 tons.
If all the muscles in your body could pull in a single direction you could lift 3.5 tons.
Portable ballistae anyone?
Portable ballistae! :D
The limiting factor will probably be on how much force the frame can stand, or the speed the muscles can contract, not how much force they can provide.
The way i envision this is that you use the muscles to draw back the arms and bowstring and then the frame locks it in place thereby eliminating strain on the muscles, then when you pull the trigger it unhooks the cable and you fire the bolt at your target. so the only things limiting the design would be the tensile strength of the cable, and the stiffnes and durability of the arms and frame.
Im pretty sure that even a five ton draw strength would be able to at least knock a battlesuit off balance, milnoplate infantry on the other hand would be lifted and thrown regardless of whether their armor protects them or not.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 19, 2015, 01:48:12 pm
Quote
Lets go with 1 token each as is.And if we were to increase % used from 1,4,10, 20% to 2,8,20,40%, would two for a token be ok then?
Quote
Alright; what more do we need to work out do you think? Seems fine to me, though we kinda made the current Xan as an alternative to it.
I dunno, this things seems much more practical to me. Like, you can put them limbs in a closed box until you need them to protect them and keep them sterile, while the limbs and organs on Xan's body better not get into an environment with a lot of sand flying around, for example. Next to that, regular medics can still make use of this without any expensive suit, and unless Xan gets free limb refills for some reason (which would be weird, since medkits normally aren't refilled, nor are things like battlesuit gun ammo) even he'll be able to make use of it.
Anyways, I do think this is mostly wrapped up. Maybe say the limb degrades over the span of a few days/weeks, to prevent people chopping their arms of to get replaced with these (for the free limited self repair, you see)? Unless you don't think that'll be a problem.
Quote
Muscle is not being used as a bowstring.Sure, but what part of the robobody will you use as a string then? unless you wanna get that somewhere else?
Also, I get the idea this design puts a lot of stress on the fulcrum part. Might I suggest an alternative design?
Quote
I can get whatever is needed to power and control the muscles from the robot body. It doesn't require nutrients, only the brain in the robot body needs nutrients.Do robomuscles even work like normal ones do? Might be that they use motors and such more, I dunno. If it's indeed like muscles, are you sure it doesn't need any nutrients, and only electricity?
Also, I think it might be hard to actually separate all those parts and rearrange them and then try to re-purpose the controlling parts, but if you catch pw in a good mood he might be lenient, heh.
Post by: NAV on August 19, 2015, 02:34:54 pm
Its a piece of string. I doubt the armoury would even charge for it.QuoteMuscle is not being used as a bowstring.Sure, but what part of the robobody will you use as a string then? unless you wanna get that somewhere else?
Quote
Also, I get the idea this design puts a lot of stress on the fulcrum part. Might I suggest an alternative design?Sure, you can suggest a different design. I don't think it will be a problem, just gotta make a heavily reinforced fulcrum. Maybe move them a bit farther apart to reduce stress.
Quote
Yes they do. It has been mentioned several times that they work basically like human muscles. There are the usual Piecewise inconsistencies of course. Even if it uses actuators, I will make an actuator powered crossbow.QuoteI can get whatever is needed to power and control the muscles from the robot body. It doesn't require nutrients, only the brain in the robot body needs nutrients.Do robomuscles even work like normal ones do? Might be that they use motors and such more, I dunno. If it's indeed like muscles, are you sure it doesn't need any nutrients, and only electricity?
And it doesn't matter whether it needs nutrients or only electricity. I can feed my crossbow robot food if I have too.
Quote
Also, I think it might be hard to actually separate all those parts and rearrange them and then try to re-purpose the controlling parts, but if you catch pw in a good mood he might be lenient, heh.So? Its far from impossible. Whats the point of handiwork if we can't make things from other things?
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 19, 2015, 02:38:49 pm
Quote
Its a piece of string. I doubt the armoury would even charge for it.
If you really wanna fire things at high velocities (high enough to be worthy for a battlesuit), I do think you'll need a very decent string material to prevent it from snapping, which might not be free.
Quote
Yes they do. It has been mentioned several times that they work basically like human muscles. There are the usual Piecewise inconsistencies of course. Even if it uses actuators, I will make an actuator powered crossbow.
And it doesn't matter whether it needs nutrients or only electricity. I can feed my crossbow robot food if I have too.
Kay then, I'll take your word for it (it's what I thought, but wasn't 100% sure).
And now I kinda wanna see you feed your weapon ("sorry, cannot fight now, out to lunch"). Silly and impractical, but darn if it wouldn't be funny.
Quote
So? Its far from impossible. Whats the point of handiwork if we can't make things from other things?Sure sure, just pointing it out. Can't hurt to try! Not mile those robobodies were gonna do much good sitting in an inventory.
Anyways, what I think might work a bit better:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As designated below the two main drawings, you can add some extra features, such as making the muscles bend around so they can pull the string up to maximum without the crossbow having to be very long by using a pulley, or make the thing very long and make the muscle broader instead of longer (aka higher muscle cross section, for more pulling strength) and let it pull the string up in increments to get higher projectile speeds (black bars are where you let the string rest between pulls and reattach the pulling muscles).
Could maybe even put the projectile and string and such inside the frame (by having a partially hollow frame) so you can stack multiple on top of each other and be able to shoot multiple times in quick succession, or even simultaneously).
Of course, a simple motor to just draw in the string would be better and easier, but meh.
Post by: Devastator on August 19, 2015, 03:18:33 pm
Here's what Leo writes down for the portable sensor package:
Smoke isn't much of a problem. Have a number of infared LEDs into a few small lamps, and use an infared camera to build up an image. Have them be deployable, so you can take the little lamps and cameras out of the box and put them where you want coverage.
To further coverage, use a blacklight emitter. This will probably have to be flourescent, as it's cheaper to make blacklights like that. Include a UV camera as well.
That should take care of smoke and darkness. I'm afraid there's no real way to see in darkness without a lamp of some kind, depending on it's range.
Radar is a bit more tricky, as with the longer-wavelength light, you need larger pickups to handle them. Most of the box would have to be the emitter for the radar system, with a pair of long, telescopic rods and amplifiers to act as the pickups. These would be networked together to provide directional coverage. It would be directional, but it should be more than sufficient. Accuracy would be limited somewhat by putting them on people, instead of a fixed stand, but it would be better than nothing.. and a collapsable stand should be included, so you can set it up properly. It would also help if you are using it to penetrate walls.
So, in short, make a box around a radar emitter and a collapsable stand for the recievers. Let the recievers be a pair of telescopic rods with amplifiers. It could be attached to a frame or carried by a person, but with limited accuracy due to the somewhat irregular movement of a person. It should be, at reasonable power levels, capable of detecting objects on the other side of narrow walls.
This box should include two IR lamps, as well as at least one IR camera. It should also include two UV lamps, and a UV camera.
Pickups from the cameras can be handled as normal, but the radar needs a fair amount of processing power behind it to make useful returns, so it'll need a small computer and something to display it's readout on. The radar will also be directional.
Audio isn't really useful. Bullets and lasers travel faster than sound, after all, and pointing a directional microphone requires you to know what direction it's coming from so you can point it in the right way. Things would be different underwater, but making a sonar box similar to the radar box isn't too hard, if that should become necessary.
As for power consumption, the whole thing should be able to run for about an hour on two or three of the laser rifle batteries.
So here's what the bolded description would be.
-The sensor package, at it's most basic, is a box a bit smaller than a breadbox.
-it contains at least two removable battery-powered IR lamps, which recharge when you put them back in their slots, from the replaceable battery in the package itself.
-likewise, it contains two similar UV lamps.
-It also contains similar removable networkable cameras, one for each of IR and UV. The cameras, in addition to being wireless, contain empty ports for network cables.
-the largest components of the box are the ones necessary for the portable radar set. The basic part of the box will contain the radar emitter set, the signal processing computers, and the reloadable batteries. It's likely any moving parts required will be behind a thin, hard, fibreglass barrier designed to look like the rest of the box, while being transparant to radar waves. This is to reduce people messing with sensitive parts that should not be messed with.
-The radar pickups will be a pair of telescoping metal rods, along with a telescoping framework that can hold the box and the recievers, in a stationary position apart from the person. The rods themselves could also be attached to a person or even just carried, although doing so will restrict the range.
-The UV and IR cameras, can be displayed on suits like the regular existing camera viewing abilities, in false color.
-The radar is somewhat more complicated, and I'll leave the desired type of display open to others to choose.
-The batteries will be wholly conventional, and sufficient to allow for a few hours of operation. This should be doable with a small number of laser rifle batteries.
-The range on the radar will be around five or so kilometers, albeit it will be directional, and restricted to a cone of around 90-120 degrees. It will also be capable of some penetration of thin walls.
Post by: piecewise on August 25, 2015, 10:32:52 am
Sure.QuoteLets go with 1 token each as is.And if we were to increase % used from 1,4,10, 20% to 2,8,20,40%, would two for a token be ok then?QuoteAlright; what more do we need to work out do you think? Seems fine to me, though we kinda made the current Xan as an alternative to it.
I dunno, this things seems much more practical to me. Like, you can put them limbs in a closed box until you need them to protect them and keep them sterile, while the limbs and organs on Xan's body better not get into an environment with a lot of sand flying around, for example. Next to that, regular medics can still make use of this without any expensive suit, and unless Xan gets free limb refills for some reason (which would be weird, since medkits normally aren't refilled, nor are things like battlesuit gun ammo) even he'll be able to make use of it.
Anyways, I do think this is mostly wrapped up. Maybe say the limb degrades over the span of a few days/weeks, to prevent people chopping their arms of to get replaced with these (for the free limited self repair, you see)? Unless you don't think that'll be a problem.QuoteMuscle is not being used as a bowstring.Sure, but what part of the robobody will you use as a string then? unless you wanna get that somewhere else?
Also, I get the idea this design puts a lot of stress on the fulcrum part. Might I suggest an alternative design?QuoteI can get whatever is needed to power and control the muscles from the robot body. It doesn't require nutrients, only the brain in the robot body needs nutrients.Do robomuscles even work like normal ones do? Might be that they use motors and such more, I dunno. If it's indeed like muscles, are you sure it doesn't need any nutrients, and only electricity?
Also, I think it might be hard to actually separate all those parts and rearrange them and then try to re-purpose the controlling parts, but if you catch pw in a good mood he might be lenient, heh.
Really, the thing is fatal, reusable, able to bypass armor and has no stat requirements. It's really powerful. I just don't want it being too cheap.
I don't think it should really need to degrade. Remember that the limbs produced by these were supposed to be temporary anyways; they're not as powerful as robot limbs, but they're a lot better then no limb.
Is this directed at me?Here's what Leo writes down for the portable sensor package:
Smoke isn't much of a problem. Have a number of infared LEDs into a few small lamps, and use an infared camera to build up an image. Have them be deployable, so you can take the little lamps and cameras out of the box and put them where you want coverage.
To further coverage, use a blacklight emitter. This will probably have to be flourescent, as it's cheaper to make blacklights like that. Include a UV camera as well.
That should take care of smoke and darkness. I'm afraid there's no real way to see in darkness without a lamp of some kind, depending on it's range.
Radar is a bit more tricky, as with the longer-wavelength light, you need larger pickups to handle them. Most of the box would have to be the emitter for the radar system, with a pair of long, telescopic rods and amplifiers to act as the pickups. These would be networked together to provide directional coverage. It would be directional, but it should be more than sufficient. Accuracy would be limited somewhat by putting them on people, instead of a fixed stand, but it would be better than nothing.. and a collapsable stand should be included, so you can set it up properly. It would also help if you are using it to penetrate walls.
So, in short, make a box around a radar emitter and a collapsable stand for the recievers. Let the recievers be a pair of telescopic rods with amplifiers. It could be attached to a frame or carried by a person, but with limited accuracy due to the somewhat irregular movement of a person. It should be, at reasonable power levels, capable of detecting objects on the other side of narrow walls.
This box should include two IR lamps, as well as at least one IR camera. It should also include two UV lamps, and a UV camera.
Pickups from the cameras can be handled as normal, but the radar needs a fair amount of processing power behind it to make useful returns, so it'll need a small computer and something to display it's readout on. The radar will also be directional.
Audio isn't really useful. Bullets and lasers travel faster than sound, after all, and pointing a directional microphone requires you to know what direction it's coming from so you can point it in the right way. Things would be different underwater, but making a sonar box similar to the radar box isn't too hard, if that should become necessary.
As for power consumption, the whole thing should be able to run for about an hour on two or three of the laser rifle batteries.
So here's what the bolded description would be.
-The sensor package, at it's most basic, is a box a bit smaller than a breadbox.
-it contains at least two removable battery-powered IR lamps, which recharge when you put them back in their slots, from the replaceable battery in the package itself.
-likewise, it contains two similar UV lamps.
-It also contains similar removable networkable cameras, one for each of IR and UV. The cameras, in addition to being wireless, contain empty ports for network cables.
-the largest components of the box are the ones necessary for the portable radar set. The basic part of the box will contain the radar emitter set, the signal processing computers, and the reloadable batteries. It's likely any moving parts required will be behind a thin, hard, fibreglass barrier designed to look like the rest of the box, while being transparant to radar waves. This is to reduce people messing with sensitive parts that should not be messed with.
-The radar pickups will be a pair of telescoping metal rods, along with a telescoping framework that can hold the box and the recievers, in a stationary position apart from the person. The rods themselves could also be attached to a person or even just carried, although doing so will restrict the range.
-The UV and IR cameras, can be displayed on suits like the regular existing camera viewing abilities, in false color.
-The radar is somewhat more complicated, and I'll leave the desired type of display open to others to choose.
-The batteries will be wholly conventional, and sufficient to allow for a few hours of operation. This should be doable with a small number of laser rifle batteries.
-The range on the radar will be around five or so kilometers, albeit it will be directional, and restricted to a cone of around 90-120 degrees. It will also be capable of some penetration of thin walls.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 25, 2015, 03:46:30 pm
Quote
Is this directed at me?Pretty sure it was?
Quote
Sure.
Really, the thing is fatal, reusable, able to bypass armor and has no stat requirements. It's really powerful. I just don't want it being too cheap.
Oh sure, I definitely understand, I'm all for balance. so, how's this for a write-up:
Quote
1 | electronade
Ammo: 1 Token for 2.
Description: It's an electricity grenade that throws around electricity like a tesla arc, and has different intensity settings so you can choose how hard you wanna make somebody's life suck today. Higher intensities drain the blueshard battery faster (it has a timer so you can choose for how many seconds it works before shutting off), and the internal components burn out and become useless when the battery is spent. Percentages are per second used (so 3 seconds at 8% drains 24% total). Comes with a delay timer to choose how long it takes the grenade to go off. Brisant compatible.
2%: taser power, stuns unarmored people but doesn’t kill or harm them
8% kills unarmored people
20% kills lightly-to-medium armored people
40% full power, kills anything not very well insulated against electricity
EDIT: made the nades Brisant-compatible, if that's alright? And gave them Brisant-nade functions, aka remote controlled detonation and such. Can this be gotten for free or not? I'd understand if not, this project has already got a lot going for it.
And limbvat write-up:
Quote
10 | Sharkmist limb/organ construction vat
Ammo: organic materials as food
Description: A bieg vat of sharkmist that can grow any limb or organ out of sharkmist. Just add some milkshakes (or appropriate organic carbon source) and let it stew for a few hours. However, one vat can only grow 1 kind of thing about the mass of a big arm or leg, and it can only be ‘programmed’ once. Limbs can be made to be usable on both sides of a body however. Usable for both people and robobodies (same kind of limbs can be used for both). These limbs or organs, once taken out of their production vat, have limited self-repair capabilities, and can be attached in the field for when teammates carelessly misplace their original one. These limbs are not as strong or dexterious as the original ones though, so one still gets a normal replacement after the mission. The vat can be taken with you, needs exoskeleton to carry but battlesuit-level strength is recommended. Though the sharkmist is modified not to give a grey goo scenario, try not to spill it on the ground regardless. Bathing in the vat is ill-advised and voids the non-existent warranty.
All good?
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 25, 2015, 04:02:03 pm
So does that mean it's OK to look at the AM with camEyes?
And any idea what I should be careful about when looking at the AM so I don't accidentally end up going through an airlock?[/fishing_for_info]
Or is this something I should investigate on ship?
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 04:03:35 am
RC wanted it a bit clearer.. so guess it's for him.QuoteIs this directed at me?Pretty sure it was.
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 26, 2015, 12:05:18 pm
@RC: Why not give it the standard Brisant grenade functions? Don't think it would cost anything extra.
I kinda thought most, or even all, grenades came Brisant-compatible these days? I mean, goop nades got it tacked no problem, though it certainly never hurts to confirm with pw. It's a bit weird that hand-thrown and launcher-lobbed nades are the same in this game, but w/ever, abstraction for simplification I guess.
Also, gonna edit in limbvat write-up, in case peeps wanna comment on it before pw runs the turn.
Post by: Devastator on August 26, 2015, 12:16:51 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 26, 2015, 12:18:47 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 26, 2015, 01:13:35 pm
So.. doing anything with that writeup, RC?
I'll respond to your pm.
I was more interested about the fact that Brisant grenades can be programmed to be remotely triggered or only trigger at a certain distance, etc. and less about the ability of being able to be launched by the Brisant. Grenades with Brisant-compatible control systems can be easily turned into remote-controlled or claymore-like mines by someone with a bit of Aux programming instead of needing handiwork and tools. (Although being able to be launched by the Brisant would certainly help.) Just thought it would be nice to confirm that it has that capability, since it would help with re-usability to be able to trigger it remotely, as a sort of area denial when combined with a camera. Or any other interesting system an Aux user could come up with.
Ah, I thought you just meant making sure it was compatible. Hmm, that might increase cost (or increase power % used to compensate) due to needing some electronics and adding extra functionality. I'll see what pw says.
Post by: Nikitian on August 26, 2015, 01:22:47 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 26, 2015, 01:36:45 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 26, 2015, 02:17:35 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 26, 2015, 02:20:54 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on August 26, 2015, 02:34:48 pm
Post by: piecewise on August 27, 2015, 11:30:38 am
Sure I suppose.QuoteIs this directed at me?Pretty sure it was?QuoteSure.
Really, the thing is fatal, reusable, able to bypass armor and has no stat requirements. It's really powerful. I just don't want it being too cheap.
Oh sure, I definitely understand, I'm all for balance. so, how's this for a write-up:Quote1 | electronade
Ammo: 1 Token for 2.
Description: It's an electricity grenade that throws around electricity like a tesla arc, and has different intensity settings so you can choose how hard you wanna make somebody's life suck today. Higher intensities drain the blueshard battery faster (it has a timer so you can choose for how many seconds it works before shutting off), and the internal components burn out and become useless when the battery is spent. Percentages are per second used (so 3 seconds at 8% drains 24% total). Comes with a delay timer to choose how long it takes the grenade to go off. Brisant compatible.
2%: taser power, stuns unarmored people but doesn’t kill or harm them
8% kills unarmored people
20% kills lightly-to-medium armored people
40% full power, kills anything not very well insulated against electricity
EDIT: made the nades Brisant-compatible, if that's alright? And gave them Brisant-nade functions, aka remote controlled detonation and such. Can this be gotten for free or not? I'd understand if not, this project has already got a lot going for it.
And limbvat write-up:Quote10 | Sharkmist limb/organ construction vat
Ammo: organic materials as food
Description: A bieg vat of sharkmist that can grow any limb or organ out of sharkmist. Just add some milkshakes (or appropriate organic carbon source) and let it stew for a few hours. However, one vat can only grow 1 kind of thing about the mass of a big arm or leg, and it can only be ‘programmed’ once. Limbs can be made to be usable on both sides of a body however. Usable for both people and robobodies (same kind of limbs can be used for both). These limbs or organs, once taken out of their production vat, have limited self-repair capabilities, and can be attached in the field for when teammates carelessly misplace their original one. These limbs are not as strong or dexterious as the original ones though, so one still gets a normal replacement after the mission. The vat can be taken with you, needs exoskeleton to carry but battlesuit-level strength is recommended. Though the sharkmist is modified not to give a grey goo scenario, try not to spill it on the ground regardless. Bathing in the vat is ill-advised and voids the non-existent warranty.
All good?
@RC: Why not give it the standard Brisant grenade functions? Don't think it would cost anything extra.You still might not want to do that. You might see something you don't like. And that she won't be happy with you.
So does that mean it's OK to look at the AM with camEyes?
And any idea what I should be careful about when looking at the AM so I don't accidentally end up going through an airlock?[/fishing_for_info]
Or is this something I should investigate on ship?
I'll tell you nothing. To tease the Tigress if you want to. STICK YOUR HAND IN THE BEAR TRAP!
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 28, 2015, 03:18:57 pm
Quote
Sure I suppose.
Then I'll go add it to the armory.
Next up: mine/demo kit.
Basically, a sturdy box with a collection of several items for taking various grenades or explosives and turning them into boobytraps or mines. Contains at least the following:
-main 'unit' where other bits are slotted into or attached to
-mechanical odds and ends to allow nades or explosives of various size to be attached to the main unit
-tripwires
-pressure sensitive plates/sensors
-infrared lasers
-small receiver/transmitter (for remote control)
-small simple cameras
-timer
-detonators
Idea would be the box works like the medkit does, in which its exact contents are a bit nebulous, and instead each box has a certain amount of uses. User can use contents of the box to create booby traps or mines with a variety of possible firing mechanisms, thought the actual 'explosive parts' (which might even be as crude as a drum of booze) aren't included in the package. Sort of like a 'do-it-yourself bomb kit (bomb sold separately)'.
Does this seem like a workable idea? Could you think of things to add or how to improve the concept? How many uses would one 'box' have, and what would its price be? Currently I'm hoping for 1 token and 5 uses. If that seems like a lot, remember that this thing on its own is rather useless, so you need to add the price of the explosives a person would need (aka another token at the very least). Though I guess you could also use the simple sensors for intelligence/recon purposes, but there are better options available for that.
Finally, could you please take a look at this and tell me what you think:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So here's what the bolded description would be.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on August 28, 2015, 08:58:01 pm
*Snip*((Well, if that gets approved, what about a more expensive version that also carries a Piezoelectric fabricator with it?))
Post by: Radio Controlled on August 29, 2015, 03:55:35 am
*Snip*((Well, if that gets approved, what about a more expensive version that also carries a Piezoelectric fabricator with it?))
Why, exactly? And can't that thing just be bought separately?
Post by: piecewise on August 31, 2015, 09:49:00 am
Well that trap kit seems fine to me. I actually have some diagrams from an old army manual about how to create landmine booby traps around here somewhere...I'll try to find them. It might give us ideas of what more to add to it. In any case, we could do the standard "Use it 5 times" med kit thing. Cost? Eh, 2 tokens should be fine. If only because small cameras and various other components from it can be used elsewhere as well.QuoteSure I suppose.
Then I'll go add it to the armory.
Next up: mine/demo kit.
Basically, a sturdy box with a collection of several items for taking various grenades or explosives and turning them into boobytraps or mines. Contains at least the following:
-main 'unit' where other bits are slotted into or attached to
-mechanical odds and ends to allow nades or explosives of various size to be attached to the main unit
-tripwires
-pressure sensitive plates/sensors
-infrared lasers
-small receiver/transmitter (for remote control)
-small simple cameras
-timer
-detonators
Idea would be the box works like the medkit does, in which its exact contents are a bit nebulous, and instead each box has a certain amount of uses. User can use contents of the box to create booby traps or mines with a variety of possible firing mechanisms, thought the actual 'explosive parts' (which might even be as crude as a drum of booze) aren't included in the package. Sort of like a 'do-it-yourself bomb kit (bomb sold separately)'.
Does this seem like a workable idea? Could you think of things to add or how to improve the concept? How many uses would one 'box' have, and what would its price be? Currently I'm hoping for 1 token and 5 uses. If that seems like a lot, remember that this thing on its own is rather useless, so you need to add the price of the explosives a person would need (aka another token at the very least). Though I guess you could also use the simple sensors for intelligence/recon purposes, but there are better options available for that.
Finally, could you please take a look at this and tell me what you think:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So here's what the bolded description would be.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As per Dev's sensor package, it looks fine...I wonder how useful it will be in the end, but I don't see anything on there that is technically impossible. Not sure what he means "Can be displayed on suits" with the cameras though. Might have to reduce the radar range a bit.
Post by: NAV on August 31, 2015, 11:10:32 am
Quote
It's a complex set of actuators, mechanical parts, metal pieces and sensors. It will transform into a tool that can be used to manipulate any basic mechanical device.Would it be possible to add this or something similar to the armoury, and how much would it cost? Maybe we have to study it on Heph first.
How about a basic handiwork tool box? Containing stuff like a welder, a few powered tools, a lot of non-powered tools and some supplies.
Post by: Nikitian on August 31, 2015, 11:58:18 am
How about a basic handiwork tool box? Containing stuff like a welder, a few powered tools, a lot of non-powered tools and some supplies.This. Oh please this. NAV, you are my savior; I've wanted something like that for ages.
Post by: Devastator on August 31, 2015, 12:27:44 pm
As per Dev's sensor package, it looks fine...I wonder how useful it will be in the end, but I don't see anything on there that is technically impossible. Not sure what he means "Can be displayed on suits" with the cameras though. Might have to reduce the radar range a bit.
Well, people don't seem to have issues accessing other people's camera feeds. I thought that system for the false color IR and UV views. Radar would need something different.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 01, 2015, 12:52:04 pm
Quote
Well that trap kit seems fine to me. I actually have some diagrams from an old army manual about how to create landmine booby traps around here somewhere...I'll try to find them. It might give us ideas of what more to add to it. In any case, we could do the standard "Use it 5 times" med kit thing. Cost? Eh, 2 tokens should be fine. If only because small cameras and various other components from it can be used elsewhere as well.
Yeah, if you wanna try and look that up, that might be interesting. If not, we luckily can abstract the exact contents a bit (like with a medkit) so if we forget something obvious, it ain't a big deal. Also, if you want one can download the US army field manual on booby traps: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vistaconceptsllc.boobytraps.AOUFHCMCYQYEOBJVX&hl or https://archive.org/details/FM_5_31_Booby_Traps_
Would 1 token for a kit of 3 uses also be all right?
Quote
As per Dev's sensor package, it looks fine...I wonder how useful it will be in the end, but I don't see anything on there that is technically impossible. Not sure what he means "Can be displayed on suits" with the cameras though. Might have to reduce the radar range a bit.
Well, for starters: you know that movie thing where people use sound echolocation to map out their environment and detect things? This could do that, but better, and uses electromagnetic waves in different parts of the spectrum. So some waves are sent out and bounce back to the detectors, mapping the walls and such, while others can penetrate walls a bit and thus map beyond them as well (though obviously there's a limit). So, if in an unknown tunnel complex, you could use this to map ahead of you and see where different branches go to, in a way that's better than echolocation.
Next to that, it could detect incoming things (shuttles, LESHO rounds, ...) even when they aren't in visible range or are stealthed (for example, on the Heabi mission they'd allow us to detect those organic missiles much sooner), since most things, even if invisible to cameyes, might not be to other parts of the spectrum.
Basically it gives some sensors and functions that cameyes don't in order to complement those. Of course, if you think alternative sensors or other adjustments might make more sense, do tell.
While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?So, is this possible?
@Nav: tool box was on the list of simple tinker projects I'm going through. Beat me to the punch! (which isn't a problem, there's too much stuff on there anyway, help is welcome).
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 01, 2015, 12:56:59 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 01, 2015, 01:00:27 pm
While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?
What, you wanna peep on the AM more efficiently?
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 01, 2015, 01:53:54 pm
I was thinking more along the lines of scanning containers so that you can see the Arbiters in them, using methods same as those used in Cargo Scanning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_scanning). Or detecting hidden enemy agents, hiding amongst civilians.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?
What, you wanna peep on the AM more efficiently?
But hey, if you want suicidal high-tech voyeurism... whatever floats your synthflesh limbs.
Hmm... there's an odd question. Does the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on September 01, 2015, 01:55:39 pm
While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?At the magnitude of X-Ray emission necessary to reliably look through walls, I think you'd be murdering people just by looking at them.
Post by: Nikitian on September 01, 2015, 01:58:58 pm
Which is sufficiently ARM way of discerning those people didn't have weapons concealed on them.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?At the magnitude of X-Ray emission necessary to reliably look through walls, I think you'd be murdering people just by looking at them.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 01, 2015, 02:01:36 pm
Are you sure? Because I've passed through Backscatter X-ray (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_X-ray) scanners when going through airports and I'm still alive.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?At the magnitude of X-Ray emission necessary to reliably look through walls, I think you'd be murdering people just by looking at them.
EDIT: To clarify, I meant through relatively thin walls, like the ones found in clothes and containers.
Post by: Devastator on September 01, 2015, 02:04:52 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 01, 2015, 02:06:23 pm
You still need an x-ray emitter to do that.CamEyes? They already have an X-ray mode? Unless you are suggesting that in the ERverse, all metal is constantly emitting X-rays.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 01, 2015, 02:42:45 pm
I was thinking more along the lines of scanning containers so that you can see the Arbiters in them, using methods same as those used in Cargo Scanning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_scanning). Or detecting hidden enemy agents, hiding amongst civilians.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?
What, you wanna peep on the AM more efficiently?
But hey, if you want suicidal high-tech voyeurism... whatever floats your synthflesh limbs.
Hmm... there's an odd question. Does the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?
Yeah, how oh how could i ever get such ridiculous ideas...
@RC: Why not give it the standard Brisant grenade functions? Don't think it would cost anything extra.
So does that mean it's OK to look at the AM with camEyes?
And any idea what I should be careful about when looking at the AM so I don't accidentally end up going through an airlock?[/fishing_for_info]
Or is this something I should investigate on ship?
Must be my over active imagination.
Post by: Devastator on September 01, 2015, 02:46:21 pm
You still need an x-ray emitter to do that.CamEyes? They already have an X-ray mode? Unless you are suggesting that in the ERverse, all metal is constantly emitting X-rays.
I thought cameyes were passive sensors, you know, to not give away your position constantly. And to make it more reasonable them being, you know, eye-sized. Passives would work fine in the situations they're normally used in.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 02, 2015, 02:58:17 am
And there's no problem with active sensors. It's a tradeoff between visibility and information. Want more info? Switch to X-ray mode. You don't have to keep it always on.
Post by: Devastator on September 02, 2015, 05:09:17 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on September 02, 2015, 05:42:34 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 02, 2015, 07:07:33 am
There is also the issue with an x-ray gun into an eyeball.Yeah, because nobody would do something as crazy and unsafe as putting a laser in their eyeballs. I mean, one accidental look away due to loss of concentration and you've just sliced someone in half... Oh, wait (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#Laser_Eyes).
But, hey, the radiation required for an X-ray scan is not that high. And I'm certain that our scientists have taken every precaution to reduce the risk of cancer and brain damage. I mean it's not like we're a bunch of disposable convicts... Oh, wait.
Post by: Dutrius on September 02, 2015, 07:26:49 am
There is also the issue with an x-ray gun into an eyeball.
It would have to be a pretty big eyeball. Normal x-ray generators are pretty big, and a free electron laser to produce a coherent beam would be larger still.
Having said that, you can produce x-rays with cellophane tape (https://youtu.be/SrmWRK7aV1s?t=1m35s) (if you are in a vacuum).
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 02, 2015, 08:58:23 am
Yes, assuming you want some sort of x-ray laser, you'd probably want something big. If you just want an x-ray scanner however, there are much smaller sources (http://www.healthimaging.com/topics/diagnostic-imaging/mu-researchers-develop-super-compact-x-ray-source) currently in development. Which will presumably only get better in the future.There is also the issue with an x-ray gun into an eyeball.It would have to be a pretty big eyeball. Normal x-ray generators are pretty big, and a free electron laser to produce a coherent beam would be larger still.
Post by: Dutrius on September 02, 2015, 09:18:07 am
Post by: Devastator on September 02, 2015, 09:19:34 am
And Dutrius, we have magic x-ray mirrors already, due to the requirement for the magic FEL laser. Also, bouncing is assumed to make the concept usable, or at least enough scatter to get an image back at the camera.
It's good to know that there is a compact source available. Now if only it said how bright the source was..
Post by: Dutrius on September 02, 2015, 09:22:24 am
Post by: Devastator on September 02, 2015, 09:33:48 am
Anyway, it's not that big of a deal, but if I knew cameyes were magic lanterns, I would have put different features in the proposed sensor package (along with a lot more, as cameyes are so cheap). Sadly, looking at it, much of it would already be stuff that would need to exist in cameyes for them to function properly, but since it isn't listed, it would be fair game.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 02, 2015, 10:03:43 am
Out of curiosity, why is it important that cameyes have x-ray capabilities, anyway?It's not important for them to have x-ray capabilities.
They have x-ray capabilities. I'm proposing an upgrade for those capabilities.
Post by: piecewise on September 03, 2015, 10:40:58 am
The multitool Simus got for christmas a couple years ago. It was described like this:QuoteIt's a complex set of actuators, mechanical parts, metal pieces and sensors. It will transform into a tool that can be used to manipulate any basic mechanical device.Would it be possible to add this or something similar to the armoury, and how much would it cost? Maybe we have to study it on Heph first.
How about a basic handiwork tool box? Containing stuff like a welder, a few powered tools, a lot of non-powered tools and some supplies.
We can do it, but keep in mind it's a mechanical thing; works great on something like an engine, but don't expect to solder anything with it or check voltages or something.
If you can think up a good list of tools to put in it, sure.
QuoteWell that trap kit seems fine to me. I actually have some diagrams from an old army manual about how to create landmine booby traps around here somewhere...I'll try to find them. It might give us ideas of what more to add to it. In any case, we could do the standard "Use it 5 times" med kit thing. Cost? Eh, 2 tokens should be fine. If only because small cameras and various other components from it can be used elsewhere as well.
Yeah, if you wanna try and look that up, that might be interesting. If not, we luckily can abstract the exact contents a bit (like with a medkit) so if we forget something obvious, it ain't a big deal. Also, if you want one can download the US army field manual on booby traps: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vistaconceptsllc.boobytraps.AOUFHCMCYQYEOBJVX&hl or https://archive.org/details/FM_5_31_Booby_Traps_
Would 1 token for a kit of 3 uses also be all right?QuoteAs per Dev's sensor package, it looks fine...I wonder how useful it will be in the end, but I don't see anything on there that is technically impossible. Not sure what he means "Can be displayed on suits" with the cameras though. Might have to reduce the radar range a bit.
Well, for starters: you know that movie thing where people use sound echolocation to map out their environment and detect things? This could do that, but better, and uses electromagnetic waves in different parts of the spectrum. So some waves are sent out and bounce back to the detectors, mapping the walls and such, while others can penetrate walls a bit and thus map beyond them as well (though obviously there's a limit). So, if in an unknown tunnel complex, you could use this to map ahead of you and see where different branches go to, in a way that's better than echolocation.
Next to that, it could detect incoming things (shuttles, LESHO rounds, ...) even when they aren't in visible range or are stealthed (for example, on the Heabi mission they'd allow us to detect those organic missiles much sooner), since most things, even if invisible to cameyes, might not be to other parts of the spectrum.
Basically it gives some sensors and functions that cameyes don't in order to complement those. Of course, if you think alternative sensors or other adjustments might make more sense, do tell.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?So, is this possible?
@Nav: tool box was on the list of simple tinker projects I'm going through. Beat me to the punch! (which isn't a problem, there's too much stuff on there anyway, help is welcome).
(http://i.imgur.com/nz5DtjO.gif)
Thats all I could find. Oh well.
In any case we'll abstract the contents and yeah 1 for 3 uses sounds fine.
Hmm. I dunno if detecting lesho rounds coming will help you much but ok. I still dunno how much actual ingame use it will get because of the way things work out, but fine to make it. Not sure on the price though.
Xray can already see through clothing and walls. Though it sees more of a skeleton then a naked person and it only works on not very dense walls.
originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.I was thinking more along the lines of scanning containers so that you can see the Arbiters in them, using methods same as those used in Cargo Scanning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_scanning). Or detecting hidden enemy agents, hiding amongst civilians.While you're at it, could you also look at upgrading camEyes so that their X-ray mode can be used to see through walls and clothes?
What, you wanna peep on the AM more efficiently?
But hey, if you want suicidal high-tech voyeurism... whatever floats your synthflesh limbs.
Hmm... there's an odd question. Does the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2015, 12:42:58 pm
How did the AoP's automanips detect the attack aimed at it in order to trigger? How do defensive anti-manips in general detect space magic in time to counter it? How did the Hebi detect amp/manip use? can any of the above be adapted into a space-magic detector?
Am not looking for the actual automanip, don't need the expensive automated space-magic box with limited charges. Just want the detection system it uses to know to activate in the first place.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 02:38:59 pm
Quote
In any case we'll abstract the contents and yeah 1 for 3 uses sounds fine.Write-up. Whadda ya think?
Quote
1 | boobytrap kit
Ammo: 3 uses per kit
Description: Do you like explosions? Do you like inflicting said explosions on unsuspecting passerby's? Then this is just the thing for you! A kit containing various bits and bobs for creating a mine or booby trap out of any explosive or grenade you happen to have handy. Has several possible sensors to fine-tune your flavor of sneaky murder (see kit's own page for more info). One kit grants you three uses. Note that it's contents could also be used in other ways, such as using the cameras as spycams.
((Nik, anything Maurice would object to/comment on?))
Quote
Hmm. I dunno if detecting lesho rounds coming will help you much but ok. I still dunno how much actual ingame use it will get because of the way things work out, but fine to make it. Not sure on the price though.
Well, that and things like it. It prevents a lot of surprises basically. What do you mean with 'dunno how much actual ingame use it will get because of the way things work out' exactly? Due to often having more cramped environments as opposed to open ones?
Can you maybe think of other uses of this kinda thing that would make sense to have according to you? Any other sensors we could add to the package? It's basically just a sensor package to complement cameyes and the sensors built into suits.
Quote
Xray can already see through clothing and walls. Though it sees more of a skeleton then a naked person and it only works on not very dense walls.There you go paris.
Remember how I was looking into "wierdsense" before? basically wanting the ability to know space magic is happening?
How did the AoP's automanips detect the attack aimed at it in order to trigger? How do defensive anti-manips in general detect space magic in time to counter it? How did the Hebi detect amp/manip use? can any of the above be adapted into a space-magic detector?
Am not looking for the actual automanip, don't need the expensive automated space-magic box with limited charges. Just want the detection system it uses to know to activate in the first place.
Didn't the automanips detect the attempted change and counteract that (eg temp change inside active range), instead of the direct spess magic?
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2015, 02:52:22 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 02:59:09 pm
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2015, 03:08:08 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 03:13:29 pm
It wasn't. The spherical area around the AoP was protected, as shown in the actual turn.
Quote
You move quickly off to the side as the thing seems to focus on lars, and attempt to tear it apart with a single, very powerful mental attack.(Emphasis mine.)
You feel the attack begin, feel the invisible force lash out of you and close in on the arbiter like a great bear trap of crushing, tearing teeth. But as the teeth bite down, they hit something. It feels like biting down as hard as you can on a rock with the teeth of your mind. You stagger and the air around the Arbiter glimmers momentarily.
Gen.Knowledge [5]
"Automanips!" you hiss over the radio, "It's got protective automanips!"
I interpreted this as the area directly outside/on top of the main AoP body being protected, not a larger spherical area. Unless you were referring to something else?
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2015, 03:17:42 pm
notice that on the turn before, the AoP is twirling the club. the twirling would overlap with the protected area. even if not, inside the case, the club would overlap with the protected area, and those kinamps are an always-on effect. the problem is a sphere centered on your center of mass is going to overlap with the end of a held item a signifigant portion of the time. the Kinamp Mace is standard-issue. so are the automanips. they wouldn't have a negative interaction like this simply because poor design choices.
so clearly the automanip can differentiate between the Kinamps and Mass-Manip Amp effects. which probably means it can detect space magic.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 03:24:50 pm
Also, 'air around it' can be the air directly outside it, no? As in, the air layer on top of the robot itself? 'Area around it' is too vague to be sure admittedly, but that's what I thought.
Quote
and those kinamps are an always-on effect.
I do think kinamps can be turned off.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 03, 2015, 04:57:04 pm
When activated, automanipulators inside the AoP's torso project a sphere around it that negates kinetic/vector/gravity effects. A sphere is projected because automanipulators can't be programmed (from what we know, although the kinetic amp can be programmed by its input ("kinetic energy") so either that does not apply to all automanipulators or the kinetic amp is not an automanipulator).
However, the sensors for triggering that sphere are located either inside or close to the surface of the AoP's body and only trigger when their programming tells them to (which explains why they didn't trigger for minor things).
There is also another option: Due to his superspeed, an Arbiter could manually trigger his automanipulators, using his own judgement and data provided from sensors across his body for when it is best to do so.
It is best to ask Steve or the Doc if you want a concrete answer, since they both seem to know about them.
EDIT: There is also the less likely assumption that it has multiple automanipulators, one of each kind for each bodypart, but that sounds like too much of an overkill. Not to mention that they would probably not fit in its body, unless they had very limited charge/small batteries.
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2015, 05:15:57 pm
Post by: NAV on September 03, 2015, 05:28:45 pm
Cool. How much would it cost?The multitool Simus got for christmas a couple years ago. It was described like this:We can do it, but keep in mind it's a mechanical thing; works great on something like an engine, but don't expect to solder anything with it or check voltages or something.QuoteIt's a complex set of actuators, mechanical parts, metal pieces and sensors. It will transform into a tool that can be used to manipulate any basic mechanical device.Would it be possible to add this or something similar to the armoury, and how much would it cost? Maybe we have to study it on Heph first.
How big/heavy would it be?
Quote
I was hoping that it would work like a medkit or Miya's bomb kit, with vaguely defined contents. But if you need a list I can do that.QuoteHow about a basic handiwork tool box? Containing stuff like a welder, a few powered tools, a lot of non-powered tools and some supplies.[/b]If you can think up a good list of tools to put in it, sure.
How much would a kit like this cost?
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 03, 2015, 05:53:43 pm
I'm thinking that, since one of the biggest selling point of gauss weapons is multiple ammo types, a revolver magazine could allow you to load multiple types of ammo in a single magazine and then switch to the ammo type you want to use.
I assume that the braincase mobility legs can be used to climb on walls and such?
Could I make a different version of the brain-case mobility system that trades the legs (and the laser if necessary) for thrusters? In case you really need to fly away really fast, in situations where just running just isn't fast enough. With the possible drawback that A) you have limited fuel and B) you have fuel stored right next to your brain. Granted, it's armoured, but it's still fuel.
Yeah, originally, why not? I didn't really expect a serious answer to be honest.Does the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.
Not really what I wanted. Guess I'll have to ask myself, now that I'm back on ship.QuoteXray can already see through clothing and walls. Though it sees more of a skeleton then a naked person and it only works on not very dense walls.There you go paris.
Can X-ray mode see through unshielded containers and things like that?
How programmable are camEyes?
Could I potentially write/buy some sort of "focus" program for them? For example, something that uses the input from both eyes to determine distance and allows you to focus on something at a certain distance, so that everything between it and you will disappear and you can get a clearer (and possibly lower quality) image of said object.
Or change the colour coding so that things with different density appear in different colours?
Or make it so that motion tracking only shows motion that fits certain parameters?
This is tinker thread. I intend to at least try to see if I can get a space-magic-detection system going.Yeah, sure, I'm not saying no. It's a useful thing to have. You should do it.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 06:36:28 pm
Quote
Not really what I wanted. Guess I'll have to ask myself, now that I'm back on ship.Hey, I just copy-pasted what you told me! Probably best to ask yourself in any case.
Quote
This is tinker thread. I intend to at least try to see if I can get a space-magic-detection system going.
Go for it, just trying to rationalize what might've been happening there. As usual though, 'insufficient data for meaningful answer'.
Post by: Nikitian on September 03, 2015, 06:48:15 pm
As usual though, 'insufficient data for meaningful answer'.Also known as "It's Space Magick, I Ain't Gonna Explain Shit" :P (No, I actually find Lenglon's drive to find out the basis behind the automanip conundrum very commendable; I often feel the same interest in small details, and I believe it can produce very useful and... ah, I'd say 'expl...', but Council is always lurking nearby, right? So let's settle at 'very useful and interesting solutions'.)
Yeah, no big problems or suggestions with the booby-trapping kit. You'll wait for the official approval before inducing it to the Armory this time, will you?
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 03, 2015, 06:55:39 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 05, 2015, 10:48:52 am
Post by: Devastator on September 05, 2015, 05:46:28 pm
Polarizing and polarized light filters should be added. This would allow some determinations to be made about the shape of a hallway out of sight, due to the polarization created when light reflects off of a flat wall. It would also allow for detailed readings of the stress on even extremely hard surfaces, when pressure is applied to them. This would reveal information about the composition of a wall, along with things such as internal hollows, cable tunnels, holes, and so forth. It wouldn't tell you exactly what's there, but it might give some help with determining locking mechanisms, booby traps, and so forth. It also would require the seperate lamps, as different frequencies may be needed for the effect to show up in different materials. It's also concievable that such effects would be visibly different for walls under the influence of certain kinds of space magic, revealing defensive automanipulators and so forth, although decoding those effects under fire would be pretty damn hard.
Post by: piecewise on September 18, 2015, 10:34:51 am
Remember how I was looking into "wierdsense" before? basically wanting the ability to know space magic is happening?Well you'd still need an automanip. Because thats the thing, the automanips are the things detecting this. Like the Ghost Ship, the automanips have a sort of extrasensory sense that allows them to "feel" things not going right. Of course this "Not right" extends into anything outside the established perimeters regardless of cause.
How did the AoP's automanips detect the attack aimed at it in order to trigger? How do defensive anti-manips in general detect space magic in time to counter it? How did the Hebi detect amp/manip use? can any of the above be adapted into a space-magic detector?
Am not looking for the actual automanip, don't need the expensive automated space-magic box with limited charges. Just want the detection system it uses to know to activate in the first place.
Hypothetically, if you just want a detector, we can rig a sort of "Space magic" Geiger counter for you.
QuoteIn any case we'll abstract the contents and yeah 1 for 3 uses sounds fine.Write-up. Whadda ya think?Quote1 | boobytrap kit
Ammo: 3 uses per kit
Description: Do you like explosions? Do you like inflicting said explosions on unsuspecting passerby's? Then this is just the thing for you! A kit containing various bits and bobs for creating a mine or booby trap out of any explosive or grenade you happen to have handy. Has several possible sensors to fine-tune your flavor of sneaky murder (see kit's own page for more info). One kit grants you three uses. Note that it's contents could also be used in other ways, such as using the cameras as spycams.
((Nik, anything Maurice would object to/comment on?))QuoteHmm. I dunno if detecting lesho rounds coming will help you much but ok. I still dunno how much actual ingame use it will get because of the way things work out, but fine to make it. Not sure on the price though.
Well, that and things like it. It prevents a lot of surprises basically. What do you mean with 'dunno how much actual ingame use it will get because of the way things work out' exactly? Due to often having more cramped environments as opposed to open ones?
Can you maybe think of other uses of this kinda thing that would make sense to have according to you? Any other sensors we could add to the package? It's basically just a sensor package to complement cameyes and the sensors built into suits.QuoteXray can already see through clothing and walls. Though it sees more of a skeleton then a naked person and it only works on not very dense walls.There you go paris.Remember how I was looking into "wierdsense" before? basically wanting the ability to know space magic is happening?
How did the AoP's automanips detect the attack aimed at it in order to trigger? How do defensive anti-manips in general detect space magic in time to counter it? How did the Hebi detect amp/manip use? can any of the above be adapted into a space-magic detector?
Am not looking for the actual automanip, don't need the expensive automated space-magic box with limited charges. Just want the detection system it uses to know to activate in the first place.
Didn't the automanips detect the attempted change and counteract that (eg temp change inside active range), instead of the direct spess magic?
looks fine.
Basically what I was saying is that due to the nature of how things are often described, I don't know if it would help a whole lot. I mean, I won't have time to draw out the map that it would project for you in game, and there's a limited amount of description I can give you without that visual; and often people don't understand my descriptions anyways. I feel like the thing might be limited by the medium. If you just want to use it like a "Alien" style motion detector though, one that detects movement through walls and stuff, that might work.
Cool. How much would it cost?The multitool Simus got for christmas a couple years ago. It was described like this:We can do it, but keep in mind it's a mechanical thing; works great on something like an engine, but don't expect to solder anything with it or check voltages or something.QuoteIt's a complex set of actuators, mechanical parts, metal pieces and sensors. It will transform into a tool that can be used to manipulate any basic mechanical device.Would it be possible to add this or something similar to the armoury, and how much would it cost? Maybe we have to study it on Heph first.
How big/heavy would it be?QuoteI was hoping that it would work like a medkit or Miya's bomb kit, with vaguely defined contents. But if you need a list I can do that.QuoteHow about a basic handiwork tool box? Containing stuff like a welder, a few powered tools, a lot of non-powered tools and some supplies.[/b]If you can think up a good list of tools to put in it, sure.
How much would a kit like this cost?
Uh...2 tokens maybe? I dunno, need to run it by the council. Size and weight though, Maybe 8-10 inches long, 3-4 wide, 10 pounds or so.
A kit like that is getting rather large, but not very expensive. A couple tokens. But it's becoming more of a large box than a kit.
Could I make/buy a revolver-like magazine for gauss weapons?
I'm thinking that, since one of the biggest selling point of gauss weapons is multiple ammo types, a revolver magazine could allow you to load multiple types of ammo in a single magazine and then switch to the ammo type you want to use.
I assume that the braincase mobility legs can be used to climb on walls and such?
Could I make a different version of the brain-case mobility system that trades the legs (and the laser if necessary) for thrusters? In case you really need to fly away really fast, in situations where just running just isn't fast enough. With the possible drawback that A) you have limited fuel and B) you have fuel stored right next to your brain. Granted, it's armoured, but it's still fuel.Yeah, originally, why not? I didn't really expect a serious answer to be honest.Does the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.Not really what I wanted. Guess I'll have to ask myself, now that I'm back on ship.QuoteXray can already see through clothing and walls. Though it sees more of a skeleton then a naked person and it only works on not very dense walls.There you go paris.
Can X-ray mode see through unshielded containers and things like that?
How programmable are camEyes?
Could I potentially write/buy some sort of "focus" program for them? For example, something that uses the input from both eyes to determine distance and allows you to focus on something at a certain distance, so that everything between it and you will disappear and you can get a clearer (and possibly lower quality) image of said object.
Or change the colour coding so that things with different density appear in different colours?
Or make it so that motion tracking only shows motion that fits certain parameters?This is tinker thread. I intend to at least try to see if I can get a space-magic-detection system going.Yeah, sure, I'm not saying no. It's a useful thing to have. You should do it.
Sure.
Yes
Yes, but those would have to be small thrusters and would have very limited range.
Thats a good question. I guess it depends on your definition of "Reproductive organs."
Depends on the container. Cardboard box? Sure. 2 inch thick metal shipping container? Nope. Drywall? Sure. Concrete wall? Nope. It's an x-ray; it's stopped by dense materials.
In your head they're not, but we could remove them and change the programming.
Sure, though I question what it would be used for.
Sure.
Sure.
Post by: Lenglon on September 18, 2015, 12:03:37 pm
Post by: Devastator on September 19, 2015, 07:17:35 am
Anyway, I'm fine with the motion detector, was mostly describing how it works so it can fail or be bypassed under circumstances that don't require changing the world.
Oh, and I wrote more stuff for it a couple of posts above.
I also thought that defensive automanips worked by essentially projecting a field of 'there is zero force being applied to this area' or 'the temperature of this area is X' and so forth, pre-empting crude amp attacks and such. You don't detect the force and then counter it, you are already being affected by zero force. That would work a lot better, be more reliable, and make sense. I didn't think amps give warning before the target is hit, and that's the reason why they don't have saves built into them.
This is a bit harsh, but what you're asking for a blanket of multiple saves against everything space-magic related forever, with no ammo, that never fails, and doesn't have any drawbacks.
If all you wanted was an automatic intuition counter against every use of space magic against you, that's a hugely powerful ability. In your case, it sounds like you want automatic fives, or something that runs on the skill of your choice, (exo) rather than one that's less than convienent, and doesn't require you to even declare it like a normal int counter.
That would let you single-handedly tank a magic threat to yourself and anyone else around you, indefinitely, with no ammo limitations, and for a low, low cost.
That should be vetoed.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 19, 2015, 11:24:47 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 19, 2015, 12:07:07 pm
Lenglon, isn't that called the 'intuition' skill?No, it's not. and your rant that follows the above quote is entirely off-base because you haven't actually read what intuition does, in addition to completely overestimating what I'm asking for when I am linking it to a human mind instead of to an auto-5-rolling-automanip.
what I'm asking for would enable rolls to be made to react to invisible amp or manip attacks and attempt to counter or avoid them. normally that situation is an auto-fail-go-directly-to-the-will-or-end-rolls setup. this would just give the user a chance to do something. maybe make a dex roll to get out of the way, or an exo roll to counter them if you have the amp, or maybe requireing an intuition roll to even understand what you're feeling, to be followed by the appropriate reaction roll. whatever. basically it would give you a chance to avoid being hit. that's all.
Post by: Devastator on September 20, 2015, 03:59:01 am
If you want such a thing approved, you should describe it for what it actually is, not something incredibly vague.
Lastly, automanips don't even need such a function to operate, as many of them counter mundane effects and attacks as well.
Post by: Lenglon on September 20, 2015, 04:32:07 am
This is the tinker thread Devastator. I'm having to be vague because I'm playing with the black boxes and am not "in the know" about them. If the design I come up with doesn't work, then it doesn't work. As the tinkerer, it is my job to figure out how to reach my endgoal or endstate, not PW's. additionally as i am working on it, I might stumble on how to do something totally differeent and cool, and that's okay. it's part of tinkering.
I don't know why I'm being assaulted for using the tinker thread for non-deathtubes, but it's really obnoxious and you're trying to backseat GM for PW, which is wrong.
Post by: Devastator on September 21, 2015, 12:16:01 am
I can accept that you want to make a broken character, that's perfectly reasonable and understandable. I don't like it if you're getting it through misrepresentation. What you described was an implant that gives you a vague feeling in the presence of space magic. What you want is an implant that lets you use your amps in combat as defensive automanipulators. The two are not the same thing.
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2015, 01:06:39 am
Broken characters are boring and uninteresting. so are invisible undetectable unstoppable instantkills. I don't want either.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on September 21, 2015, 01:25:36 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2015, 01:34:26 am
he also put a liquifier automanip on mission 20 that killed people in the first turn via invisible space magic.
Devastator, let me be clear, what I want is EXACTLY what I described. I want a vague feeling in the presence of space magic. I want to have to try to interpret that feeling. I want to have to guess what is going on and how to handle it. I want to have a chance to avoid invisible death. I'm not asking to make all amps double as automanips. that would be stupid.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on September 21, 2015, 01:36:18 am
Post by: piecewise on September 21, 2015, 10:26:26 am
I understand the desire to be able to mount a defense against invisible space magic threats. However, there are problems with this.
The first is the fact that I basically never use space magic except in big obvious ways. The last mission was the only time I remember when I had man made space magic being turned against you guys in any way other than blatantly obvious DBZ stuff. Well, ok, mind control too but you automatically rolled to save from that.
However, if I were to introduce a Haber Implant style thing into the game, that gives me the ability to start using invisible space magic.
Do you want to give me the ability to turn space magic against you in a realistic manner?
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2015, 10:50:38 am
Do you want to give me the ability to turn space magic against you in a realistic manner?Yes.
The Amp Specialist fight sucked because it made no sense and was all DBZish. I'd like to see a dual of creativity instead of dual of DBZ. one where enemies can't just flat ignore everything you do (Amp Specialist, AoP), and you have to actually care about things like if you are on camera or not. the inconsistantcy of space magic between what players are strongly advised to do and how to use it (minimal use of force, avoid flashy, avoid using at all) and what enemies do when they get to field it (large flashy attacks) has been longstanding and unusual, as well as how rare manips and ampers are in our opposition as compared to our own use. it just makes the field even.
also, I remember quite well thinking Lyra was under a mind control attack during the Heph Assault when you had her rolling to not cat every single turn. having some way to know space magic wasn't happening would have made that issue much less problematic.
Post by: Xantalos on September 21, 2015, 10:55:18 am
If it turns out to be a super meatgrinder, well, we have Tinker for a reason.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on September 21, 2015, 11:03:05 am
AS IN WHAT DO THE NON AMP AND MANIP USERS GET OUT OF THIS DEAL.
Post by: Toaster on September 21, 2015, 11:04:58 am
Post by: Nikitian on September 21, 2015, 11:08:50 am
Essentially, it would mean that somebody with Hayber implant is required on any mission (and preferably on each 5-man team). While this can be done, and even some of the ampers would accept it as necessary evil, this is a change that would hassle up the whole economy AND game meta. I don't think it is desired.
I admit that usually I'm the most staunch proponent of "realism over balance", but here going too realistic means another game-changing event. It is illogic, it is wrong, but the way things currently are formed the core of ER as we know it. I don't think we want to endanger it.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 21, 2015, 11:57:50 am
Quote from: piecewise
Could I just get that from the armory like a normal magazine? Or is it something I have to build or get Hephaestus to mass produce?Quote from: ParisCould I make/buy a revolver-like magazine for gauss weapons?Sure.
I'm thinking that, since one of the biggest selling point of gauss weapons is multiple ammo types, a revolver magazine could allow you to load multiple types of ammo in a single magazine and then switch to the ammo type you want to use.
Quote from: piecewise
I was thinking of a sort of GTFO button, to be used in case of overloads, bombs and stuff like that, perhaps similar to the battlesuit's emergency escape pod function. It's incapable of making fine movements or turn very well (so it won't be able to maneuver through a vent but it might be able to turn through a large mining tunnel with a really good aux roll and a big loss of fuel), but it's thrusters are really powerful, making it a valid choice for quickly escaping large scale destruction. Maybe also add the drawback that if you go too quickly, you are rendered unconscious or suffer brain damage.Quote from: ParisCould I make a different version of the brain-case mobility system that trades the legs (and the laser if necessary) for thrusters? In case you really need to fly away really fast, in situations where just running just isn't fast enough. With the possible drawback that A) you have limited fuel and B) you have fuel stored right next to your brain. Granted, it's armoured, but it's still fuel.Yes, but those would have to be small thrusters and would have very limited range.
Is something like that possible? If yes, would it be for the same cost?
Quote from: piecewise
Well, most, if not all living things reproduce in some way. So it is logical to assume that anything living would have part of its body dedicated to reproduction. One could argue that for most forms of life, their entire body is there to facilitate reproduction, so it is just an extended reproduction organ. So let's go with a narrower definition:Quote from: ParisThats a good question. I guess it depends on your definition of "Reproductive organs."Quote from: piecewiseYeah, originally, why not? I didn't really expect a serious answer to be honest.Quote from: ParisDoes the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.
Does the thing synthflesh come from have a thing it sticks into other things (possibly of the same species) in order to create a new member of the species? Or a thing that accepts other things (possibly of the same species) which in turn trigger the creation of a new member of the species?
Let's see how far I can push this...
Post by: swordsmith04 on September 21, 2015, 12:06:09 pm
We even have that new armour type coming out of Heph soonTM that helps protect against SM without giving people reality cancer. Anyone who wants to go on a mission likely to have hostile SM users on it, but doesn't want to buy automanips or their own SM, could get some of that.
I THINK YOU GUYS MIGHT BE IGNORING SOMETHING.
AS IN WHAT DO THE NON AMP AND MANIP USERS GET OUT OF THIS DEAL.
Realism! And if their SM-using teammates are duking it out with enemy SM-users using magicsense, neither side is probably paying too much attention to ordinary bullets or lasers, are they? Could even make that a drawback, magicsense reducing non-SM awareness when active.
Post by: Nikitian on September 21, 2015, 12:47:54 pm
I THINK YOU GUYS MIGHT BE IGNORING SOMETHING.
AS IN WHAT DO THE NON AMP AND MANIP USERS GET OUT OF THIS DEAL.
Realism! And if their SM-using teammates are duking it out with enemy SM-users using magicsense, neither side is probably paying too much attention to ordinary bullets or lasers, are they? Could even make that a drawback, magicsense reducing non-SM awareness when active.
And this comes back to the fact it would prompt far more commonplace space magic duels. I think we had one, back in the Assault on Hephaestus, and it wasn't pretty.
Basically, do we want to demote non-spacewizards to spacewizards' aides/sidekicks/bodyguards? To be fair, I don't find that sort of a game unappealing, but it is certainly a very different setup from the semi-"equal opportunities" thing we had going for Con and Exo users. If we are to accept this change we should see it for what it is: finally and inevitably changing the face of ER combat. Not a bad thing in itself, but something not to be decided lightly.
In all honesty, at this point I am actually willing to side with Devastator on noting that space magic should be ultimately offensive in nature. Defensive space-magic just runs counter to how the magic has been established so far. Having space-magic-negating automanips and other stuff is just enough.
Hmmm. Piecewise, could we go the other way here? How much of a change would it require to say that both enemy ampers AND PC ampers have to go the "flashy" way? Because of carefully thought-out reasons, of course. (Maybe because of it being drastically more difficult for precise and finely-controlled space-magic than was initially thought; that, and making indirect, remote-camera-kills attacks far, far more difficult to pull.)
The continuity would be largely preserved ("Flashy" is the HMRC way, certainly), and for lore reasons (the AM space-magicking style, for example) the option still might be on the table for ultra-high-level space wizards (say, skill level 5+: even skill level 4 is easy enough to obtain, given genemods and appropriate starting skill distribution).
Post by: NAV on September 21, 2015, 01:12:49 pm
Spoiler: Mechanical multitool: Awaiting council and Heph approval (click to show/hide)
Would the multitool be able to function as something like a saw or drill or other power tools? How good would it be in this roll? It would probably need stuff like separate saw blades, drill bits, grinding wheels, etc. added.
How about a welder/soldering iron/generator combo for 1 token?
And how about lowering the price of the cutting torch (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Cutting_Torch) to 1 token, or even combining it with the welder combo above? I think we can all agree its current 3 token price is way too much.
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2015, 01:13:50 pm
seriously, the Amp Specialist was immune to all Con attacks. that was dumb. If it had been a realistic dual of creativity, then con users would actually matter because it wouldn't have auto-shielded all their attacks. higher lethality space magic also means weaker defenses against conventional attacks so non-space-magic-users can actually matter.
and you can get the "sense space magic" implant without being a space magic user, which would enable you to at attempt to dodge, which is better than your current situation of being useless fodder that dies whenever an amp specialist wants you to. which is dumb.
Post by: Xantalos on September 21, 2015, 01:38:44 pm
I THINK YOU GUYS MIGHT BE IGNORING SOMETHING.I dunno, I'm not an amp or manipulator user.
AS IN WHAT DO THE NON AMP AND MANIP USERS GET OUT OF THIS DEAL.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 21, 2015, 02:42:18 pm
But on the caveat that SM shouldn't easily defended against by SM. The best counter to an Amper should be to not let them know you're there, or to just kill them first.
I'd also recommend having both the Haber as well as a less implanted-in-your-skull detector that would just tell you if there's Space Magic in the area.
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 21, 2015, 05:06:06 pm
Quote
Basically what I was saying is that due to the nature of how things are often described, I don't know if it would help a whole lot. I mean, I won't have time to draw out the map that it would project for you in game, and there's a limited amount of description I can give you without that visual; and often people don't understand my descriptions anyways. I feel like the thing might be limited by the medium. If you just want to use it like a "Alien" style motion detector though, one that detects movement through walls and stuff, that might work.
I think I understand what you mean. Yeah, something that does this would be fine then, if possible with the added functions of mapping stuff (because even if you can't describe it, it allows for a character to reasonably get an idea of eg where the exit leading outside is in a large building) to some extend and getting that radar/early warning system. Yes, the last might not be needed all that often, but having an extra turn to spot incoming ordnance or reinforcements might be pretty convenient all in all.
So, you think the sensor package works like this? If yes, cost and size of the package? Any other comments or restrictions?
Post by: Dutrius on September 21, 2015, 06:00:52 pm
I assume that I'll be able to procure a suitably large Dewar Flask from Heph once we get there for Mission 24.
Also, I'm thinking of strapping one of these 250L flasks to my back (if an exosuit can support that much):
Spoiler: 250L of liquid helium (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 21, 2015, 06:07:58 pm
Post by: Dutrius on September 21, 2015, 06:41:37 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 21, 2015, 06:46:59 pm
Post by: Dutrius on September 21, 2015, 06:50:03 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on September 21, 2015, 09:28:12 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on September 22, 2015, 06:10:05 am
Let's have a standardized DOOMARMS treatment please?
But, if it becomes an item, maybe make it come with some sort of protective box or whatever that contains it in normal situations. One could still go overboard when actually using it (like with an amp), but it would prevent it constantly exploding as an electricity grenade every time focus lapses for half a second. Maybe make the treatment give only 1 doom arm, and have said arm be held in a protective box meaning it can't grab things anymore (aka 'loose' function if that arm). But once the end of the box is opened by the user, it's zap time.
This to offset the raw power and added safety of the treatment.
Post by: Parisbre56 on September 22, 2015, 07:10:22 am
Let's have a standardized DOOMARMS treatment please?We already have that, but it needs willpower to release instead of willpower to contain. Which is a way more reasonable way of doing things, if a bit less powerful.
http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#Electro_Psychokinetic_Amplifier
Post by: Egan_BW on September 22, 2015, 07:26:44 am
EDIT: Hmm. Have it come with a specially designed rubberized glove, so it can be removed dramatically when it's time for DOOMING.
Post by: piecewise on September 22, 2015, 10:19:09 am
And I'm gonna have to find ways to let non-exo/uncons have fun too.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on September 22, 2015, 10:31:56 am
Post by: Devastator on September 22, 2015, 01:23:31 pm
I'd expect PW would work around that by not having space magic detectors detect PCs.
And I'm gonna have to find ways to let non-exo/uncons have fun too.
That's been out for a while already.
lastly..
(I don't want) invisible undetectable unstoppable instantkills.
What sort of character did you build again? An invisible amp-sniper? That's why I don't think you are sincere. It's because you are complaining about the exact character you built yourself.
Post by: Lenglon on September 23, 2015, 04:28:31 am
Lyra's primary role is one that mission commanders don't let her actually fill. She's a scout. In order to fill that role, she needs stealth and detection capabilities, secondary medical skills, nonlethal attacks, and the ability to get herself out of panic situations. The primary role her amps are supposed to fill are for when things go south, she's been caught, and she needs to escape. Since they are for short burst use and not her primary, she doesn't need the endurance of other ampers, hence her low Mind score. She cannot use deathtubes in any form because of her body, and the mass-manip amp is extremely useful for environment manipulation, and the reason for the microwave amp is because it's the closest thing she can get to Blue, which still hasn't left Tinker due to it being highly token inefficient, but which has psychological comfort value to her.
The problem is since nobody lets her actually do her job properly and keep bringing her in for her secondary roles as her primary purpose, she hasn't been able to actually do what she's designed to do. she is constantly kept in the middle of a large pack of people and expected to be a mainline amp fighter and medic, which is wrong. but she's better at it than newbies simply because she's a veteran character and her short burst is about as long as a newbie can last, and that burst is at full veteran firepower.
so yeah, she's been used as an invisible amp-sinper. but that's not what she's for.
and as for the specific traits: NPCs have detected her, have seen her attacks, have repeatedly stopped her cold, and she has a kilcount of 0 (check her missions if you like, she hasn't even taken down a single sod) so you can try to say she's all that, but the results have shown quite thoroughly otherwise. If I wanted what you're describing I'd have built like Xan in stats and picked up a can of 3 token or less (i think it was just 2 or 1, but I don't remember) invisopaint for her suit. by now she'd have a +5 or +6 in Exo, a will of iron, and been able to go toe-to-toe with an amp specialist DBZ style.
I don't play to minmax, and one real look at my character should have shown you that (I recently upgraded her Uncon because she's been learning to use her claws. Think about that for a second. If you need help, look at her Str). I have a character that has a low End and Mind and needs to be self-supporting. I want a chance to dodge specifically so I can do what I've set out to do. If I'd can get my way then Lyra's killcount will remain 0, I just need to be able to justify keeping her away from the stomping gun brigade so we can actually not set off every single trap PW ever sets.
Post by: Devastator on September 25, 2015, 11:52:39 am
The thing is, every character can be considered a scout, as it's a tactical role. The scout is whoever is in front. Naturally, the mission commanders don't put the most potent character in a role that can be filled by everyone, including sods and drones.
It's easy to say that you never intended to make an invisible amp-sniper, but that's what you built. Sure, you can call her a scout, but that doesn't mean you didn't make an invisible amp-sniper. The two are not exclusive.
I just have to think, though, 'do you tell the truth about your character?'.. and your character is afraid of body mods. So you've spent every token you've earned and borrowed on body mods and implants. You've submitted yourself to an experimental treatment from an item called the death-cube. Your body mods have been custom and groundbreaking, along with a long list of features that you wanted to have.
So, no, your character is not afraid of body mods. Lets look at the rest of your claims, then.
Does your character have low mind? Your character has +2 to mind. Calling +2 low is, well, inconsistant. +2, including one from char creation, is not low. It could be higher, but as mind points only rarely run out, so it's probably the optimal amount.
You do have a killcount of zero, but that's the same as most people. Many missions have very few enemies to fight, and the times when you have taken killshots (several) haven't worked out, but the attempts have been made. Saying that you refuse to kill anyone isn't correct, you've been willing to kill people in the past.
So do you have a strong prohibition against killing? Well.. no. You've never let it stop you before in the past, and you willingly volunteer on missions knowing that you may very well have to kill people. It's easy to say that you don't want it, or you don't like it, but it's never affected your in-game behavior. How about disliking being controlled by others? Well, you claim to have a very strong one, but you just found out that Steve has an override button in your brain, and despite admitting that you haven't come to terms with your officers over it, are rushing off to volunteer for another mission where that might be in play. OOC, you vote in favor of keeping the override button, and providing very few reasons for it not be used frequently.
As for optimizing, lets take a look at the -2 to con, which you chose before you ever had your body preventing you from using con weapons. In return for that, you are 'forced' into using the two most token-efficient weapons, that also have significant utility capabilities. That is what a powergamer does, goes for the most bang for the buck. Same for the uncon boost recently. You'd need three levels to get another point in exo, and there are lots and lots of useful uncon stuff available these days, and it's looking like a really bright future for an uncon user. In addition, strength is irrelevant to the new forcefield blades. I've got a feeling that the next set of body mods would have had forcefield claws in it..
The comparisons to Xan seem reasonable, but it's just as easy to interpret that as not boosting stats beyond the point where they are worth less than the points you put in them. It might mean you're a better powergamer than him.
I do believe you when you say you wanted to build a scout, though. Scout is a role that you've defined for yourself, so you would get to do whatever you want. Saying that you don't get to do "your job properly", when you are the one who has created that concept of "your job" is fully every bit as conceited and obnoxious as my pointing it out to you. So drop the double-standard, if you want me to back off.
I hear this stuff, and I hear things like "I'm perfectly okay with the murder of billions as long as I don't have to get MY character's hand's dirty." "I'm okay with Steve having control buttons for every other soldier, as long as I don't have MY freedom restricted." "Pshaw, all you dirty characters are prisoners and soldiers, but MY character is here due to a mistake, and has a nice clean job where she gets to do something useless and gets paid for it." "All you poor people have to worry about teamwork, while I get to define MY role in missions."
Me? I'm just a dirty little bastard who is projecting his problems onto you, because Lenlon is Miss Perfect who cannot have any problems of her own.
Post by: Dutrius on September 25, 2015, 11:55:30 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 25, 2015, 12:20:48 pm
Post by: NAV on September 29, 2015, 12:35:12 pm
Reposting this so it doesnt get forgotten, and editing it a bit.Spoiler: Mechanical multitool: Awaiting council and Heph approval (click to show/hide)
Would the multitool be able to function as something like a saw or drill or other power tools? How good would it be in this roll? It would probably need stuff like separate saw blades, drill bits, grinding wheels, etc. added.
How about a welder/soldering iron/generator combo for 1 token?
And how about lowering the price of the cutting torch (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Cutting_Torch) to 1 token, or even combining it with the welder combo above? I think we can all agree its current 3 token price is way too much.
Post by: NAV on September 29, 2015, 12:39:02 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 29, 2015, 03:16:10 pm
What happens when you stick a Kinetic Amplifier on a Stake
Further investigate the cost/benefit ratio of embedding Kinetic Amplifiers into projectiles and AoW systems. I'm thinking "Kicking boot of doom" and "Railgun Shell of ^2 to Destruction."
Post by: Egan_BW on September 29, 2015, 04:21:28 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on September 29, 2015, 07:30:05 pm
People have already done the "kinamp on shells" thing. They work really well but are kind of expensive. Same with on boots I think
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 29, 2015, 07:39:28 pm
@TheBiggerFishSomeone wikify that?
People have already done the "kinamp on shells" thing. They work really well but are kind of expensive. Same with on boots I think
Because right now it does not say that.
Post by: renegadelobster on September 29, 2015, 08:52:46 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 29, 2015, 09:34:33 pm
Look at the gauss rifle. It's in the special ammo section*indicates the Kinetic Amplifier page, which does not reflect this.*
Also, I don't think anyone has stuck said on a tungsten whatnot magnetic etc. launcher. Is it a launcher?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on September 29, 2015, 09:53:44 pm
From my experiences reading threads and talking to piecewise in PM's the gauss rifle is just a very basic coilgun and its basic ammo is comprised of tungsten pills the size of your thumb.Look at the gauss rifle. It's in the special ammo section*indicates the Kinetic Amplifier page, which does not reflect this.*
Also, I don't think anyone has stuck said on a tungsten whatnot magnetic etc. launcher. Is it a launcher?
Post by: renegadelobster on September 29, 2015, 10:44:51 pm
Bug one of the wiki gnomes about that. It's a gauss rifle. From what I know, it uses magnetic fields to propel ferro-magnetic rounds at ludicrously high speeds.Look at the gauss rifle. It's in the special ammo section*indicates the Kinetic Amplifier page, which does not reflect this.*
Also, I don't think anyone has stuck said on a tungsten whatnot magnetic etc. launcher. Is it a launcher?
Post by: Caellath on September 30, 2015, 02:21:18 pm
Post by: piecewise on October 01, 2015, 10:58:22 am
Yes, but it would need the bits, wheels, etc. It would be about as good as a standard power tool.Reposting this so it doesnt get forgotten, and editing it a bit.Spoiler: Mechanical multitool: Awaiting council and Heph approval (click to show/hide)
Would the multitool be able to function as something like a saw or drill or other power tools? How good would it be in this roll? It would probably need stuff like separate saw blades, drill bits, grinding wheels, etc. added.
How about a welder/soldering iron/generator combo for 1 token?
And how about lowering the price of the cutting torch (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Cutting_Torch) to 1 token, or even combining it with the welder combo above? I think we can all agree its current 3 token price is way too much.
How big and powerful a set up we talking here?
Yeah, that can be lowered to 1.
TransplantipostingWell you'd have to cut off the sharp part and create a flat end to stick it on. But you'd get a very powerful punch. Perhaps too powerful for most people.
What happens when you stick a Kinetic Amplifier on a StakePuncher ThrowerWhatsit. Also, storing energy from same in a Kinetic Shunt/Manip. Preferably, should there be any, with confidence intervals about "not backfiring horribly."
Further investigate the cost/benefit ratio of embedding Kinetic Amplifiers into projectiles and AoW systems. I'm thinking "Kicking boot of doom" and "Railgun Shell of ^2 to Destruction."
Not sure what you mean with the second part.
Well, the cost/benefit really depends on your usage. You strap one to every bullet and you're gonna hemorrhaging money. You have one bullet you save for bad situations and it will probably be worth it. Melee weapons using them are basically always worth it.
It would be possible to make a mono-force blade have serrations, right?Possible but really damn complicated.
The stake driver or the Gauss rifle? The stake driver is a melee weapon. It's a weaponized pile bunker.Look at the gauss rifle. It's in the special ammo section*indicates the Kinetic Amplifier page, which does not reflect this.*
Also, I don't think anyone has stuck said on a tungsten whatnot magnetic etc. launcher. Is it a launcher?
How expensive would it be to make the Jump Pack capable of flight instead of simple jumps? We discussed part of this via IRC, about the potential of using replaceable blueradite cells or one of those miniature fusion reactors to supply the very large amounts of energy necessary for it.Really, it depends on how far and how fast you want to fly.
Post by: NAV on October 01, 2015, 11:52:39 am
Spoiler: Council (click to show/hide)
Post by: Xantalos on October 01, 2015, 12:02:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 01, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Is it from some alien technology or something?
[Also I hereby give you permission to handwave this . :P ]
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 01, 2015, 12:09:33 pm
Why would a kinamp on a stake driver be too powerful for most people? Kinamps don't increase recoil.Blastwave (http://romanticallyapocalyptic.com/26).
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 01, 2015, 12:13:18 pm
EDIT: Oh, are those stun guns the R&D people used for sale? If yes, any idea how they work?Reposting.Quote from: piecewiseCould I just get that from the armory like a normal magazine? Or is it something I have to build or get Hephaestus to mass produce?Quote from: ParisCould I make/buy a revolver-like magazine for gauss weapons?Sure.
I'm thinking that, since one of the biggest selling point of gauss weapons is multiple ammo types, a revolver magazine could allow you to load multiple types of ammo in a single magazine and then switch to the ammo type you want to use.Quote from: piecewiseI was thinking of a sort of GTFO button, to be used in case of overloads, bombs and stuff like that, perhaps similar to the battlesuit's emergency escape pod function. It's incapable of making fine movements or turn very well (so it won't be able to maneuver through a vent but it might be able to turn through a large mining tunnel with a really good aux roll and a big loss of fuel), but it's thrusters are really powerful, making it a valid choice for quickly escaping large scale destruction. Maybe also add the drawback that if you go too quickly, you are rendered unconscious or suffer brain damage.Quote from: ParisCould I make a different version of the brain-case mobility system that trades the legs (and the laser if necessary) for thrusters? In case you really need to fly away really fast, in situations where just running just isn't fast enough. With the possible drawback that A) you have limited fuel and B) you have fuel stored right next to your brain. Granted, it's armoured, but it's still fuel.Yes, but those would have to be small thrusters and would have very limited range.
Is something like that possible? If yes, would it be for the same cost?Quote from: piecewiseWell, most, if not all living things reproduce in some way. So it is logical to assume that anything living would have part of its body dedicated to reproduction. One could argue that for most forms of life, their entire body is there to facilitate reproduction, so it is just an extended reproduction organ. So let's go with a narrower definition:Quote from: ParisThats a good question. I guess it depends on your definition of "Reproductive organs."Quote from: piecewiseYeah, originally, why not? I didn't really expect a serious answer to be honest.Quote from: ParisDoes the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.
Does the thing synthflesh come from have a thing it sticks into other things (possibly of the same species) in order to create a new member of the species? Or a thing that accepts other things (possibly of the same species) which in turn trigger the creation of a new member of the species?
Let's see how far I can push this...
Post by: Xantalos on October 01, 2015, 12:16:32 pm
Kinamps are automanips the size of a postage stamp and has infinite uses. How does it manage this?They actually have a max useage of 20.
Is it from some alien technology or something?
[Also I hereby give you permission to handwave this . :P ]
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 01, 2015, 12:18:20 pm
No, after the Sudden Reality Change (the change to the new system) they have infinite uses. Don't know if they have anything else to balance that, like slowly getting destroyed or overheating.Kinamps are automanips the size of a postage stamp and has infinite uses. How does it manage this?They actually have a max useage of 20.
Is it from some alien technology or something?
[Also I hereby give you permission to handwave this . :P ]
Post by: Xantalos on October 01, 2015, 12:21:24 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on October 01, 2015, 12:24:16 pm
Post by: SkyMarshal on October 01, 2015, 12:27:08 pm
Post by: Caellath on October 01, 2015, 01:28:34 pm
How expensive would it be to make the Jump Pack capable of flight instead of simple jumps? We discussed part of this via IRC, about the potential of using replaceable blueradite cells or one of those miniature fusion reactors to supply the very large amounts of energy necessary for it.Really, it depends on how far and how fast you want to fly.
About the same flight capabilities as a MkIII.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 01, 2015, 04:21:24 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 01, 2015, 04:22:45 pm
And as far as I understand, kin amps are not automanips, but something different.^^^
The Kinetic Shunt is the amp for kinetic energy.
Weird, isn't it.
That something stupid I mentioned with kinetic amplifiers?
Two kinetic amplifiers in what amounts to a perpetual motion machine spinning a generator.
The contact surfaces will be tied to their opposite side by an elastic material so that they are assured of reciprocal activation.
Hopefully, there will be a limiting factor on how fast I can keep them from going?
If not, what is going wrong when it gets too forceful?
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 03, 2015, 04:59:49 am
QuoteBasically what I was saying is that due to the nature of how things are often described, I don't know if it would help a whole lot. I mean, I won't have time to draw out the map that it would project for you in game, and there's a limited amount of description I can give you without that visual; and often people don't understand my descriptions anyways. I feel like the thing might be limited by the medium. If you just want to use it like a "Alien" style motion detector though, one that detects movement through walls and stuff, that might work.
I think I understand what you mean. Yeah, something that does this would be fine then, if possible with the added functions of mapping stuff (because even if you can't describe it, it allows for a character to reasonably get an idea of eg where the exit leading outside is in a large building) to some extend and getting that radar/early warning system. Yes, the last might not be needed all that often, but having an extra turn to spot incoming ordnance or reinforcements might be pretty convenient all in all.
So, you think the sensor package works like this? If yes, cost and size of the package? Any other comments or restrictions?
So yeah, this.
Also, for a possible upgrade option for the blaster pistol: The blaster pistol is small, and melts when overcharged, right? Well, I’d like to make an ‘item’ that’s essentially a modification to allow the pistol to use the overcharge without melting. Basically, it would place the pistol in a large ‘shell’ that would form the new gun body, and is capable of absorbing or radiating away the heat from the thing to prevent damage when using the full discharge. It would have a cold plate-like element in it (or maybe one of the new cold-eating spikes, that works better) that takes up and stores the heat after firing overcharge, after which this heat is transferred to from the cold plate to (certain parts of) the gun body to allow it to radiate/conduct away the heat.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 03, 2015, 05:02:37 am
Post by: NAV on October 03, 2015, 07:57:33 pm
How can we fix this issue?
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 03, 2015, 08:01:19 pm
You can eat and smoke things in any MK suits. You can't if you're wearing the newer MCP suits or underwear. This is a serious flaw that should be fixed.Are you sure? I thought they had the same helmet. Unless it's a feature of the entire suit, the MK being more bulky allowing it to have something like a mini-airlock.
How can we fix this issue?
If there's no better solution, combine a blender and a pump and hook it up in the suit's water supply or medication intake port.
Post by: Nikitian on October 03, 2015, 08:41:23 pm
Actually, that's the only way you can eat in Mk suits; the regular suit-feed supplies? Yeah, food paste.You can eat and smoke things in any MK suits. You can't if you're wearing the newer MCP suits or underwear. This is a serious flaw that should be fixed.Are you sure? I thought they had the same helmet. Unless it's a feature of the entire suit, the MK being more bulky allowing it to have something like a mini-airlock.
How can we fix this issue?
If there's no better solution, combine a blender and a pump and hook it up in the suit's water supply or medication intake port.
...Well, theoretically (with great trouble) you could (maybe) raise your hand to the face and eat something that way. Except then your food would have to be stuffed insideyour suit with you... and that's neither very healthy nor quite efficient (i.e., at all). I don't think anyone has ever done that.
And yes, the helmet is literally the same, actually. (Yes, I used 'literally' correctly here - it's exact same. By design. :P) It's the only part of MCP-suits that can depressurise... and that's because, well, it's quite hard to make it work otherwise, and then something that penetrated your helmet has likely already reduced your brain to paste or at least given you a vicious concussion in the process, thus taking you out of fight. Try not to catch bullets with your heads, people - that's what limbs are for, especially knowing our GM's not-so-secret fetish of mangling them.
Smoking though? Well, that's not suit-supported action, so that ability is lost with MCP suits, unfortunately. Clearly, this needs a clever engineering solution. Maybe we could run a tinker contest?..
Post by: NAV on October 03, 2015, 09:41:54 pm
I'm imagining a sandwich sized airlock on the front of the helmet and a set of mini roboarms that feed you. Blender and feeding tube is probably the most practical option though.
For smoking we could probably include some sort of bong or e-cig in the helmet, and a good filter. As long as it doesn't involve fire. ARM helmet bongs. This needs to be a thing.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 04, 2015, 06:00:40 am
Post by: Nikitian on October 04, 2015, 08:05:55 am
I'm certain people have smoked cigarettes and eaten sandwiches inside their suits before. Maybe they shouldn't have been able to but they did. I think it was something about the mk1/2's roominess.
I'm imagining a sandwich sized airlock on the front of the helmet and a set of mini roboarms that feed you. Blender and feeding tube is probably the most practical option though.
For smoking we could probably include some sort of bong or e-cig in the helmet, and a good filter. As long as it doesn't involve fire. ARM helmet bongs. This needs to be a thing.
As I said, smoking was quite possible (I think I did it once too), but I don't remember anyone eating that way - and then there was the whole M6 hassle because we'd have to open our helmets to eat proper food, which some of us didn't want to do, and thus preferred to subside on the suit-feed nutrient packs. But theoretically possible, I guess.
An yeah, e-cig thing could be doable. Maybe an addon/upgrade? Costing something like 1 token or free, just for flavour?
@Paris Well, I'm not overly concerned, but yeah, that's an interesting idea. The problem is that we are doing a lot of suit use via jaw-mouth-tongue tricks (like in Forever War... or was it Starship Troopers?), and I'm not quite sure how we could replace those if we went for full-skintight. Still, just being able to detect voice via vibrations is nice enough idea that makes it slightly more possible.
Post by: piecewise on October 05, 2015, 02:49:22 pm
For the welder combo we're talking about as powerful and compact as it can be for one token. Probably fairly standard. See if its possible to include a cutting torch in there too.Huh, one of the council members sent me this.Spoiler: Council (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
Hmm. Wonder what thats about~
Kinamps are automanips the size of a postage stamp and has infinite uses. How does it manage this?Actually they have batteries.
Is it from some alien technology or something?
[Also I hereby give you permission to handwave this . :P ]
I forget what you're talking aboutEDIT: Oh, are those stun guns the R&D people used for sale? If yes, any idea how they work?Reposting.Quote from: piecewiseCould I just get that from the armory like a normal magazine? Or is it something I have to build or get Hephaestus to mass produce?Quote from: ParisCould I make/buy a revolver-like magazine for gauss weapons?Sure.
I'm thinking that, since one of the biggest selling point of gauss weapons is multiple ammo types, a revolver magazine could allow you to load multiple types of ammo in a single magazine and then switch to the ammo type you want to use.Quote from: piecewiseI was thinking of a sort of GTFO button, to be used in case of overloads, bombs and stuff like that, perhaps similar to the battlesuit's emergency escape pod function. It's incapable of making fine movements or turn very well (so it won't be able to maneuver through a vent but it might be able to turn through a large mining tunnel with a really good aux roll and a big loss of fuel), but it's thrusters are really powerful, making it a valid choice for quickly escaping large scale destruction. Maybe also add the drawback that if you go too quickly, you are rendered unconscious or suffer brain damage.Quote from: ParisCould I make a different version of the brain-case mobility system that trades the legs (and the laser if necessary) for thrusters? In case you really need to fly away really fast, in situations where just running just isn't fast enough. With the possible drawback that A) you have limited fuel and B) you have fuel stored right next to your brain. Granted, it's armoured, but it's still fuel.Yes, but those would have to be small thrusters and would have very limited range.
Is something like that possible? If yes, would it be for the same cost?Quote from: piecewiseWell, most, if not all living things reproduce in some way. So it is logical to assume that anything living would have part of its body dedicated to reproduction. One could argue that for most forms of life, their entire body is there to facilitate reproduction, so it is just an extended reproduction organ. So let's go with a narrower definition:Quote from: ParisThats a good question. I guess it depends on your definition of "Reproductive organs."Quote from: piecewiseYeah, originally, why not? I didn't really expect a serious answer to be honest.Quote from: ParisDoes the thing synthflesh comes from have reproductive organs?originally? Because right now it comes from a chemical tank.
Does the thing synthflesh come from have a thing it sticks into other things (possibly of the same species) in order to create a new member of the species? Or a thing that accepts other things (possibly of the same species) which in turn trigger the creation of a new member of the species?
Let's see how far I can push this...
I assume it wouldn't be exactly like a revolver, more just a little circular selector style magazine that you would select the round and it would push it up into place. So you can get that from the armory.
Yeah thats possible, and it would cost the same.
Again, you're making it hard for me to reply here. I guess the only answer is "Kinda, but it's kinda complex".
The lack of uses was mostly because they had 20 uses and no one ever used them up before dying/losing them/upgrading to something else.No, after the Sudden Reality Change (the change to the new system) they have infinite uses. Don't know if they have anything else to balance that, like slowly getting destroyed or overheating.Kinamps are automanips the size of a postage stamp and has infinite uses. How does it manage this?They actually have a max useage of 20.
Is it from some alien technology or something?
[Also I hereby give you permission to handwave this . :P ]
It's a gameplay caveat more then anything.
Does it need to be able to maintain continous flight to the same degree or would a few minutes at a time work?How expensive would it be to make the Jump Pack capable of flight instead of simple jumps? We discussed part of this via IRC, about the potential of using replaceable blueradite cells or one of those miniature fusion reactors to supply the very large amounts of energy necessary for it.Really, it depends on how far and how fast you want to fly.
About the same flight capabilities as a MkIII.
...Stick a Kinetic Amplifier on the end of a hammer and other suitable blunt instruments (quarterstaff, mace, etc.). Force multipliers! Git'chore force multipliers here!I think someone has actually done that before. With the hammer at least.
Faith, one of our old characters, has a club covered in kinamps.
You're gonna have a material failure at some point in there.And as far as I understand, kin amps are not automanips, but something different.^^^
The Kinetic Shunt is the amp for kinetic energy.
Weird, isn't it.
That something stupid I mentioned with kinetic amplifiers?
Two kinetic amplifiers in what amounts to a perpetual motion machine spinning a generator.
The contact surfaces will be tied to their opposite side by an elastic material so that they are assured of reciprocal activation.
Hopefully, there will be a limiting factor on how fast I can keep them from going?
If not, what is going wrong when it gets too forceful?
((Dangit, weeks between tinker updates, and then he skips my action.))QuoteBasically what I was saying is that due to the nature of how things are often described, I don't know if it would help a whole lot. I mean, I won't have time to draw out the map that it would project for you in game, and there's a limited amount of description I can give you without that visual; and often people don't understand my descriptions anyways. I feel like the thing might be limited by the medium. If you just want to use it like a "Alien" style motion detector though, one that detects movement through walls and stuff, that might work.
I think I understand what you mean. Yeah, something that does this would be fine then, if possible with the added functions of mapping stuff (because even if you can't describe it, it allows for a character to reasonably get an idea of eg where the exit leading outside is in a large building) to some extend and getting that radar/early warning system. Yes, the last might not be needed all that often, but having an extra turn to spot incoming ordnance or reinforcements might be pretty convenient all in all.
So, you think the sensor package works like this? If yes, cost and size of the package? Any other comments or restrictions?
So yeah, this.
Also, for a possible upgrade option for the blaster pistol: The blaster pistol is small, and melts when overcharged, right? Well, I’d like to make an ‘item’ that’s essentially a modification to allow the pistol to use the overcharge without melting. Basically, it would place the pistol in a large ‘shell’ that would form the new gun body, and is capable of absorbing or radiating away the heat from the thing to prevent damage when using the full discharge. It would have a cold plate-like element in it (or maybe one of the new cold-eating spikes, that works better) that takes up and stores the heat after firing overcharge, after which this heat is transferred to from the cold plate to (certain parts of) the gun body to allow it to radiate/conduct away the heat.
Yeah, it seems fine.
Hmm. I'm not sure how the pistol works exactly, but you think a "Cartridge" might work better? Sort of like a bullet except it's a single use heat sink? Get a few for a token.
Post by: NAV on October 05, 2015, 03:17:31 pm
So how about 3 tokens for the multitool and 2 for the welder then?For the welder combo we're talking about as powerful and compact as it can be for one token. Probably fairly standard. See if its possible to include a cutting torch in there too.Huh, one of the council members sent me this.Spoiler: Council (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
Hmm. Wonder what thats about~
Post by: Caellath on October 05, 2015, 04:06:40 pm
Spoiler: Context spoiler in case you forget (click to show/hide)
How many minutes for the version that flies "a few minutes at a time"? Something like five or fifteen?
And what would be the price difference between that and continuous flight? I'd like to make the power input flexible for the case people want to add more batteries, generators or alien power sources.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 05, 2015, 04:35:11 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 05, 2015, 05:11:58 pm
make an angled metal hubcap that anchors onto the MK suits radiator fins or heat distribution coil.
cover the exterior in MK suit fabric.
have it contain a coldspike inside it so that when the hubcap is attached the spike eats all the heat the suit is giving off.
get price.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 06, 2015, 03:11:06 pm
Quote
Yeah, it seems fine.Coolio. So, how big would the thing be then, and how much would it cost?
Quote
Hmm. I'm not sure how the pistol works exactly, but you think a "Cartridge" might work better? Sort of like a bullet except it's a single use heat sink? Get a few for a token.How many per token are we speaking then?
Because, while that's a good idea, the problem I might see with that is that a blaster pistol gun is basically 'free', you pay for the ammo (1 token blueshard+pistol and 1 token blueshard mag). So, when firing overcharge, you 'loose' the pistol, but since you could get a 'free pistol' with every blueshard mag bought, you don't really loose anything substantial. The only thing you really gain when buying anything that solves the melting is that you don't run the risk of some molten metal encasing your hand, which isn't all that big of a deal anyways.
Post by: piecewise on October 06, 2015, 04:04:28 pm
I may have misinterpreted them.So how about 3 tokens for the multitool and 2 for the welder then?For the welder combo we're talking about as powerful and compact as it can be for one token. Probably fairly standard. See if its possible to include a cutting torch in there too.Huh, one of the council members sent me this.Spoiler: Council (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdCI15QojoA
Hmm. Wonder what thats about~
In any case, the problem is less the cost (all the parts are cheap) it's more the size. Welders tend not to be that compact. If only because they have gas canisters and lengths of welding flux wire and shit.
Post by: NAV on October 06, 2015, 05:06:28 pm
Micro-welders are already a thing in ER. Simus had one during the Heph missions. And come on, it's thousands of years in the future a small welder shouldn't be that hard.
Post by: piecewise on October 06, 2015, 06:01:39 pm
So the multitool is good then?Yeah, but I assume you wanted the cheapest model. Future or not, you can't weld, in the traditional sense of the word, without some basic materials, which take up space.
Micro-welders are already a thing in ER. Simus had one during the Heph missions. And come on, it's thousands of years in the future a small welder shouldn't be that hard.
Not much, but I mean, you're packing everything into a tiny space, even something the size of a soda can is gonna expand the size of the tool by like 30%.
Post by: NAV on October 06, 2015, 06:58:54 pm
Hey tinkerers do you think anything else absolutely needs to be crammed into this welder combo thing?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 06, 2015, 08:19:16 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 06, 2015, 08:40:03 pm
needs an anvil in case you need another tool that's not in the caseMake the case an anvil.
Post by: Gentlefish on October 06, 2015, 09:03:31 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on October 06, 2015, 09:16:02 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 06, 2015, 09:21:01 pm
A self destruct button. To keep things !!FUN!!Nah, we might be insane, but we're not !!MAD!! Scientists here. Now, a way to rig it to blow on command is entirely different.
Post by: Nikitian on October 07, 2015, 07:35:10 am
It doesn't have to be that tiny as long as it's portable. About the size of a briefcase would be fine. Welder+cutting torch+soldering iron+generator. Still at one token?
Hey tinkerers do you think anything else absolutely needs to be crammed into this welder combo thing?
Might as well throw in an electric voltmeter (they're not that complex or expensive even today, and this is The Future) into the combo, since I'm not sure how useful is soldiering iron without checking the state of soldered connections and all that. And I'm still a bit hazy on the distinction between this and the multi-tool - could you explain along what lines you split the two? Powered and unpowered? Simple and complex? Big briefcase and small multi-tool? Small briefcase and Big Bag of assorted tools with "MULTI-TOOL" logo?
(Totally making the bag if no one else implements it before that :P)
Post by: NAV on October 07, 2015, 11:11:35 am
The briefcase welder combo thing is supposed to fill the gaps and perform the functions that the multitool can't. Like welding and soldering. And electric voltometering.
Maybe the multitool should be called omnitool instead even though that's ripping off Mass Effect it's a cool name and it fits.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 07, 2015, 09:06:42 pm
Post by: Nikitian on October 08, 2015, 07:31:32 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 08, 2015, 07:39:08 am
Post by: piecewise on October 09, 2015, 10:07:31 am
Well, the thing of it is that flying around drains a lot of power. We'd have to have capacitors in there to allow it to store up power first. For continuous flight, you'd need a lot more capacitors and an even more powerful power source. For flights of specific times, we can make due with smaller power sources and more limited capacitors, so long as you're ok with a refractory period between flights. This means the pack will be smaller and cheaper. How much smaller and cheaper depends on the amount of time.Spoiler: Context spoiler in case you forget (click to show/hide)
How many minutes for the version that flies "a few minutes at a time"? Something like five or fifteen?
And what would be the price difference between that and continuous flight? I'd like to make the power input flexible for the case people want to add more batteries, generators or alien power sources.
In order to reach continuous flight, we'd need to have a pack able to fly for 50~minute bursts. Anything under that and you'll not be able to fly continuously, but your costs and size will be reduced fairly significantly.
Okay, so if I built the Kinetic Feedback Engine, how long would it run before breaking due to overstress, assuming 0-cost materials other than the KinAmps? How much power output would be lost to ensuring it doesn't explode? How much power output would it be able to sustain with that loss? How noisy is it? Is bigger better?Less then a second probably, due to residual energy multiplication. You'd honestly be better off with just using a single amp to increase power output rather then trying to create an infinite cycle.
Pre-emptive tinker project for M24, because im bored of waiting to get to heph to gain IC knowledge of coldspikes.Well, not too much. Though, doesn't the MCP not use the fins anymore? And anything MKII or above doesn't either. For the price of sticking this on there, they could get a MKII for just a bit more and have medical systems built in.
make an angled metal hubcap that anchors onto the MK suits radiator fins or heat distribution coil.
cover the exterior in MK suit fabric.
have it contain a coldspike inside it so that when the hubcap is attached the spike eats all the heat the suit is giving off.
get price.
Eh, probably the size of a large briefcase? Like this: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Large-Rolling-Case-Camera-Gun-Carrying_60233530937.htmlQuoteYeah, it seems fine.Coolio. So, how big would the thing be then, and how much would it cost?QuoteHmm. I'm not sure how the pistol works exactly, but you think a "Cartridge" might work better? Sort of like a bullet except it's a single use heat sink? Get a few for a token.How many per token are we speaking then?
Because, while that's a good idea, the problem I might see with that is that a blaster pistol gun is basically 'free', you pay for the ammo (1 token blueshard+pistol and 1 token blueshard mag). So, when firing overcharge, you 'loose' the pistol, but since you could get a 'free pistol' with every blueshard mag bought, you don't really loose anything substantial. The only thing you really gain when buying anything that solves the melting is that you don't run the risk of some molten metal encasing your hand, which isn't all that big of a deal anyways.
Cost? Eh. I'll leave that up to the council. Not a whole lot though. 3-5 token range I think.
I was thinking about 4. Which would let you use the overcharge 4 times instead of 1 for the same price.
It doesn't have to be that tiny as long as it's portable. About the size of a briefcase would be fine. Welder+cutting torch+soldering iron+generator. Still at one token?
Hey tinkerers do you think anything else absolutely needs to be crammed into this welder combo thing?
Hmm. We'll make it not that big, but something thats about 5 inches thick and a foot and 2 inches long. For 2 token.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 09, 2015, 10:28:27 am
So wait.. how do MkII's and MKIII's radiate heat if they dont have radiator fins or exhaust ports?Pre-emptive tinker project for M24, because im bored of waiting to get to heph to gain IC knowledge of coldspikes.Well, not too much. Though, doesn't the MCP not use the fins anymore? And anything MKII or above doesn't either. For the price of sticking this on there, they could get a MKII for just a bit more and have medical systems built in.
make an angled metal hubcap that anchors onto the MK suits radiator fins or heat distribution coil.
cover the exterior in MK suit fabric.
have it contain a coldspike inside it so that when the hubcap is attached the spike eats all the heat the suit is giving off.
get price.
the point of this is to completely eliminate heat emissions an all versions of the mk and mcp suits, and toallow for a perfectly contained environment.
mainly so that we dont feed the thermophage, but also because it has stealth benefits and prevents ice related explosions originating form the cooling systems.
how much would it cost to replace the existing cooling systems with a coldspike? and how much would it cost to simply add the coldspike to the existing cooling systems and cover it up with mk suit fabric?
also what is the standalone price for an individual coldspike?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on October 09, 2015, 10:33:59 am
So wait.. how do MkII's and MKIII's radiate heat if they dont have radiator fins or exhaust ports?
Entire surface of the suit radiates the excess heat.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 09, 2015, 10:58:28 am
If I did the Kinetic Feedback Engine with only one Kinetic Amplifier, but the rest being the same, would it suffer catastrophic failure? Can some sort of compensatory mechanism be installed to prevent it from breaking?
Also:
Porting a subset of common materials and ways of hitting, dissolving, moving, or removing them to a wristpad app. Also, a tester kit thing integrated with said for decent on-the-spot materials input. Also, a searchable compressed database of less common things that would still be likely. In fact, generally this should be compressed into as small a package as possible.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 09, 2015, 11:37:21 am
If the above works, try to make an add-on that makes the weapon wrist or hand mounted, like a hand laser, so it can also be used to make pneumatically enhanced kinamp punches.
And an add-on that removes the barrier the kinamp hits, thus allowing it to launch the kinamp as a crossbow bolt, for a shot that wastes whatever ammo is left in the kinamp but deals a lot of damage. Edit: Although I guess that if the bolt survives it could be retrieved and reused.
Post by: NAV on October 09, 2015, 01:45:18 pm
Welder combo also includes a voltmeter now, I assume that's no big deal.
Those two things are ready for Heph approval. I'll have a writeup in the Heph thread soon.
Post by: Caellath on October 09, 2015, 01:49:40 pm
Can the 10 minute pack be made as a sort of basic mother module and the more expensive versions made as addons/expansions to be purchased later as necessary to upgrade the flight capabilities?
Post by: AkumaKasai on October 09, 2015, 09:29:29 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 10, 2015, 10:26:13 am
Quote
I was thinking about 4. Which would let you use the overcharge 4 times instead of 1 for the same price.
Wait, I'm not following entirely. Since the overcharge always depletes the whole battery, and the gun body itself is essentially free, what does one win here in terms of tokens? The way I see it, one would be paying 1 token and in exchange be able to use an overcharge 4 times (using 4 different batteries) without running risk of the molten metal encasing the hand. Because, again, the gun body itself is practically free, so you don't 'save tokens' by saving the gun body, you just buy yourself the convenience of not running the risk of having that molten slag get on your hands. So, with that in mind, would it be possible to get the number of heat sinks up to 5 or 6 per token?
Would a mod that makes the gun from something like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
into something like this (very rough comparisons here):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and at what numbers does one start getting discounts when buying pistol ammo?
Post by: piecewise on October 14, 2015, 10:24:49 am
Hmm.You'd have to have something that reduced the energy on the return stroke. But you also forget that while the player one may have unlimited uses, in the world lore, they run on a battery, so this thing wouldn't run infinitely.
If I did the Kinetic Feedback Engine with only one Kinetic Amplifier, but the rest being the same, would it suffer catastrophic failure? Can some sort of compensatory mechanism be installed to prevent it from breaking?
Also:
Porting a subset of common materials and ways of hitting, dissolving, moving, or removing them to a wristpad app. Also, a tester kit thing integrated with said for decent on-the-spot materials input. Also, a searchable compressed database of less common things that would still be likely. In fact, generally this should be compressed into as small a package as possible.
That sort of stuff already exists. The problem is when you come up against alien things it doesn't understand.
I have a feeling I might have proposed this idea before, but is there any way to use a kinamp configuration similar to the kinamp-club to make a conventional weapon that shoots shockwaves when in atmosphere? Essentially something like a kinamp stuck on a piston that can charge up to different levels of force and then hit a surface, releasing a directed shockwave in the process. Maybe with something to redirect the force, if needed.Ie a kinamp shockwave rifle? Sure, that would just be a kinamp and some sort of mechanism to strike it. And then a casing to focus the shockwave. The problems with it are multi-fold though.
If the above works, try to make an add-on that makes the weapon wrist or hand mounted, like a hand laser, so it can also be used to make pneumatically enhanced kinamp punches.
And an add-on that removes the barrier the kinamp hits, thus allowing it to launch the kinamp as a crossbow bolt, for a shot that wastes whatever ammo is left in the kinamp but deals a lot of damage. Edit: Although I guess that if the bolt survives it could be retrieved and reused.
1. That kinamp would have batteries and limited uses
2. The shockwave itself would have very limited range, and the stronger and more long range you make it, the heavier the casing. Same with the piston punch; the stronger you make it, the stronger the mechanism and the user have to be to survive the shockwave.
3. And using the shockwaves to fire things like the expanding gas of a gun is fine, but you'd need to do various things to make sure the accuracy wouldn't be terrible and that the ammo wouldn't just blow apart.
A cold spike would be more dangerous than it's worth. Your suit would be constantly icing over, you'd be freezing everything around you if you hung around too long, it's not really viable.So wait.. how do MkII's and MKIII's radiate heat if they dont have radiator fins or exhaust ports?Pre-emptive tinker project for M24, because im bored of waiting to get to heph to gain IC knowledge of coldspikes.Well, not too much. Though, doesn't the MCP not use the fins anymore? And anything MKII or above doesn't either. For the price of sticking this on there, they could get a MKII for just a bit more and have medical systems built in.
make an angled metal hubcap that anchors onto the MK suits radiator fins or heat distribution coil.
cover the exterior in MK suit fabric.
have it contain a coldspike inside it so that when the hubcap is attached the spike eats all the heat the suit is giving off.
get price.
the point of this is to completely eliminate heat emissions an all versions of the mk and mcp suits, and toallow for a perfectly contained environment.
mainly so that we dont feed the thermophage, but also because it has stealth benefits and prevents ice related explosions originating form the cooling systems.
how much would it cost to replace the existing cooling systems with a coldspike? and how much would it cost to simply add the coldspike to the existing cooling systems and cover it up with mk suit fabric?
also what is the standalone price for an individual coldspike?
So what's the TPU on the welder's generator? I'm guessing around the same as a MK1 suit.I have no goddamn idea.
Welder combo also includes a voltmeter now, I assume that's no big deal.
Those two things are ready for Heph approval. I'll have a writeup in the Heph thread soon.
How many tokens for the version that flies continuously (50), one that flies for (25) and another that flies for (10)?Blue radite or generator? Because blue rad is cheaper for buying but you'd need to buy replacement batteries when you use the first one up.
Can the 10 minute pack be made as a sort of basic mother module and the more expensive versions made as addons/expansions to be purchased later as necessary to upgrade the flight capabilities?
Is there a model of the Sword? What about a model of a player room? If there is, pull it up and exam the walls of the room, taking note of any electrical lines/pipes/whatever.In what, tinker? No. No one has added those yet. The sword for security reasons, the player rooms because they were created recently.
QuoteI was thinking about 4. Which would let you use the overcharge 4 times instead of 1 for the same price.
Wait, I'm not following entirely. Since the overcharge always depletes the whole battery, and the gun body itself is essentially free, what does one win here in terms of tokens? The way I see it, one would be paying 1 token and in exchange be able to use an overcharge 4 times (using 4 different batteries) without running risk of the molten metal encasing the hand. Because, again, the gun body itself is practically free, so you don't 'save tokens' by saving the gun body, you just buy yourself the convenience of not running the risk of having that molten slag get on your hands. So, with that in mind, would it be possible to get the number of heat sinks up to 5 or 6 per token?
Would a mod that makes the gun from something like this:(aka rather small and unobtrusive)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
into something like this (very rough comparisons here):Be good? Just to get a mental picture. Alternatively, maybe a pistol design with the heatsink cartridges in place of bullets?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and at what numbers does one start getting discounts when buying pistol ammo?
Ah, I forgot it depleted the battery. In that case you'd need more like an expanded heatsink or cooling system rather then just a casing or something, if you want it to be reusable. So either like some sort of fluid cooling system or a big metal chunk off of it to absorb the heat.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 10:30:35 am
...It's a generator.
It can totally charge itself.
Also, if it exists, why do I have this gut feeling that no-one really uses it?
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 14, 2015, 10:35:56 am
Quote
Ah, I forgot it depleted the battery. In that case you'd need more like an expanded heatsink or cooling system rather then just a casing or something, if you want it to be reusable. So either like some sort of fluid cooling system or a big metal chunk off of it to absorb the heat.
That sounds usable, yeah. Like in this picture:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and at what numbers does one start getting discounts when buying blaster pistol ammo?
Finally, would it be possible to create an automanip that negates the effects of a nuclear explosion (aka contains heat, pressure and radiation), given that you know the exact position and strength of the nuke and automanip, and the (one use) automanip goes off once its sensors detect the start of detonation.
Post by: Caellath on October 14, 2015, 11:16:32 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 14, 2015, 11:21:39 am
so.. questions.
general:
1) what is the token cost of a coldspikee, are thre any bulk buy deals available?
2) Can you encase one side of the spike in material to dampen the effect on one side?
3) could it be handled if it were inserted into a frame made from near perfect thermal insulators such as a MK suit fabric net, then attached to a hilt or handle once outside the area of effect?
Project specific:
4) if the coldspike is held centralised in a hollow enclosure with an inner lining of MK suit fabric just outside the effects range but simultaneously housing the radiator coil within it, wouldnt that solve the icing and temperature drop issues as the effect?
5) could some simple copper wiring be overlayed on the outside and run the electricicty passively generated by the suits reactor through it as a sort of thermostat to prevent the icing by heating the fabric if the problem persists?
Side Project:
grab a long rod of metal have it end in four prongs splaying out on a 45 degree angle to the centrepoint of the rods tip.
have these prongs end with their tips ~12 inches apart or however wide they need to be to avoid the cooling effect.
use woven mk fabric ropes anchored to the prong tips to hold a coldspike in the central position where it cant touch the metal rod or prongs.
can this be used to less unsafely poke things with the coldspikes?
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 14, 2015, 12:27:21 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 14, 2015, 12:32:01 pm
@PW:The battery holds something other than electricity. Likely human neural tissue.
...It's a generator.
It can totally charge itself.
Also, if it exists, why do I have this gut feeling that no-one really uses it?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 12:39:34 pm
No?@PW:The battery holds something other than electricity. Likely human neural tissue.
...It's a generator.
It can totally charge itself.
Also, if it exists, why do I have this gut feeling that no-one really uses it?
Not that the Wiki says.
The Kinetic Amplifier is not Space Magic.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on October 14, 2015, 12:54:00 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 12:56:04 pm
Also, Piecewise said they have batteries, not brains.
Post by: NAV on October 14, 2015, 01:01:19 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 14, 2015, 01:06:13 pm
They are a type of automanipulator. They are 100% space magic. If that's not on the wiki it should be.It is in the wiki:
Quote from: http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Kinetic_Amplifier
Every time the front of the kinetic amp is hit by something, the kinetic amp registers that input and then activates its "automanipulator" to multiply that force and project it in the opposite direction right in front of the kinetic amp. Note that this is not an automanipulator in the traditional sense, since it works differently from those offered to inmates.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 01:11:45 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 14, 2015, 01:31:01 pm
I was reasonably sure that meant it wasn't an amp or manip, but okay, if you say so.It's not an amp or manipulator. And it's not an automanipulator in the same sense as those offered to us because automanipulators can only do one thing with only one output that is always the same and no input, while the kinamp can change its outputs based on its input.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 01:33:51 pm
Post by: NAV on October 14, 2015, 01:36:32 pm
That paragraph is written in a confusing way.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 14, 2015, 01:37:44 pm
It is.Yes it is.
That paragraph is written in a confusing way.
Also, the fact that it squares things but 1^2 is still 1...Let there be confusion!!!
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 14, 2015, 01:55:08 pm
And the fact that there are many flavours of space magic tech that are based on the same thing amps and manipulators are based, but work differently.
Post by: Corsair on October 15, 2015, 09:53:43 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on October 15, 2015, 10:42:02 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 15, 2015, 10:57:17 pm
from what I remember they were particle accumulator cannons.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 16, 2015, 06:56:57 am
So I will soon be returning from mission 21 [hopefully] and would like the opinion of the tinkers here as to what I should do with the tokens I shall receive assuming no bonuses a total of 12 to play with. I was tossing up between mythrilised armour for 10 or selling the PAWN and using a mighty 15 tokens to develop a Particle-beam weapon any comments on these ideas or some other ideas would be welcome.
Could get a piezoelectric shard launcher for 13. Good damage and decent ammo economy (unless you specifically want a custom weapon). Could also spend a lvl-up into uncon and get a melee weapon as a back-up. Or wait till forcefield shields are a thing (w hich might be incoming if the Hep thread ever springs into action again, or I get around to it in tinker). Or get a general suit upgrade and go for an assaultsuit/heavy robobody (or battlesuit maybe) or maybe even a synthflesh body (would get extra tokes from selling that fansuit Mk.III).
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 20, 2015, 03:44:36 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 20, 2015, 03:59:20 pm
Post by: Moopli on October 20, 2015, 04:03:57 pm
Does the teleporter rifle Aresteve made give objects it teleports the same relative velocity as the rifle? Because if yes, that principle could be used to create a replacement for our Void Ships' current automanipulator-based reactionless drive.
Velocity relative to what, though? What would moving the rifle relative to the ship, while concurrently teleporting the ship, do?
Post by: Devastator on October 20, 2015, 04:12:05 pm
We should make a plasma grenade for the Brisent, as a sort of replacement for the Plasma Projector.
For the record, shaped charges deal damage by creating shaped jets of plasma.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 20, 2015, 04:30:34 pm
Your question is confusing, so let's look at things more simply. Let's assume that we're going at speeds where relativity is not a concern. So if I teleport something with the rifle and that object has the same relative velocity as the rifle, then from the point of view of the rifle, that teleported object's velocity is zero. Or, in other words, the rifle and the object will have the same speed regardless of the point of reference chosen.Does the teleporter rifle Aresteve made give objects it teleports the same relative velocity as the rifle? Because if yes, that principle could be used to create a replacement for our Void Ships' current automanipulator-based reactionless drive.
Velocity relative to what, though? What would moving the rifle relative to the ship, while concurrently teleporting the ship, do?
Maybe I'm using the words wrongly, unfortunately I did not learn physics in English.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 20, 2015, 04:38:44 pm
Also if the rifle is moving but the ship is not what happens is the other question.
And then what happens if both.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 20, 2015, 04:51:34 pm
@Paris: Is the velocity of the ship relative to spacetime (and telerifle) conserved, I think is part of the question.The rifle can't teleport entire ships. Too big. So the question is irrelevant. Even if it was relevant, since all motion is relative, I don't see why what the ship is doing would matter, since from the rifle's point of view, the rifle would be stationary.
Also if the rifle is moving but the ship is not what happens is the other question.
And then what happens if both.
And does space have a velocity beyond its normal expansion?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 20, 2015, 04:54:31 pm
Post by: Moopli on October 20, 2015, 05:15:14 pm
Could we then use a rotating teleporter rifle to move objects at superluminal speeds? Probably (that's the entire point, right?).
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 20, 2015, 06:10:58 pm
I was thinking more about using the teleporter to create a steady point the ship could "grab" in front of it. There are many ways that could work. Magnets being the easier and moist likely.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 20, 2015, 06:23:23 pm
Like I said, range is relatively short and it can only teleport relatively small objects. Anything more requires ridiculous amounts of energy. However, in the unlikely event that rotating the rifle makes the teleported object move relative to the rifle, then that could also be used to make a reactionless drive, since you could use that to slam objects on the ship and thus "create" kinetic energy.That...Makes sense.
I was thinking more about using the teleporter to create a steady point the ship could "grab" in front of it. There are many ways that could work. Magnets being the easier and moist likely.
Post by: piecewise on October 21, 2015, 10:06:28 am
We need more Exo and Uncon weapons ASAP so I'm giving Tinkerers a lot more free reign. Submit ideas, suggestions, finished submitting, anything. Straight up token payments to accepted ideas and royalties from purchases.
Post by: Comrade P. on October 21, 2015, 10:17:59 am
Multi-Role weapon Mk.III
What we do, is we take a Mk.II of this line and replace laser rifle fire module with blaster rifle fire module and regular durable blade with Force Monosword. That's gonna be bulky, but you'll have a much better idea of where you monosword blade is because of the rifle part. And more firepower. And more cutting potential. Hence Mk.III designation.
Requirements: Exoskeleton strength, Uncon +1, Dex+1
Price: 6-8 tokens with Blaster Rifle clips?
Post by: Pancaek on October 21, 2015, 10:45:32 am
BUT I DON'T SEE THE POLICE, SO I WILL ANYWAY. This is mostly going to be stuff that already exists in a different form, because I lack imagination. Also focused on exo stuff, because that's been kind of my thing these last three years.
1. something pretty simple, an entire hand/arm made from the same stuff as the pimpcane. Pretty straightforward. means you got the interface thingy build in as well, so you can't lose it.
2. If you'll all allow me a moment of sillyness, maybe even an entire body made of the stuff. No idea how we'd make sight and hearing and shit work, but being able to repurpose your entire body would be neat.
3. A force infuser that uses the entire body to charge up the battery? To allow for multiple charges or one big charge?
4. Maybe we could put some of the weirder doctor things from the days of yore in the armoury? Like Renen's body and his bullettime? Those could come in handy, and I'm sure there are more that I've forgotten.
5. I don't suppose our tech boys could reverse engineer the
Those are the first things that spring to mind, I might come up with more stuff later. Don't hold your breath.
Post by: Hapah on October 21, 2015, 11:12:17 am
ALRIGHTThe world's a funny place when I regret things that haven't happened yet.
We need more Exo and Uncon weapons ASAP so I'm giving Tinkerers a lot more free reign. Submit ideas, suggestions, finished submitting, anything. Straight up token payments to accepted ideas and royalties from purchases.
Post by: Nikitian on October 21, 2015, 11:33:53 am
Well, technically I'm dead, so I can't tinker."No Pancaek. You are the police."
BUT I DON'T SEE THE POLICE, SO I WILL ANYWAY.
And then Pancaek was a tinkerer.
Anyway, let's join the festival, shall we?
1. Anomaly sand, unchained (as discussed earlier). Tuned to work with a "tuning fork" made of that super-vibrating metal we have recently discovered among Hephaestus anomalies.
2. Those crystals from the Crystalline Projector. Does anyone else remember that they were hinted at being "mildly psychic"? Time to use that up to eleven. (That has been my intention for a long time, and that's why it was even scheduled for research on Hephaestus... let's say that research succeeded or something.)
3. Those same crystals, only now as a body modification. Finally time to finish the Doctor's experiment of infusing flesh with crystals, only now in a controlled fashion with the user being End-boosted during the infusion.
4. The Pyramid we created HEP from. Originally, it had a very different "firing" mechanism, shooting more "lightning" or "force" (see: Milno's mangled limb) than "fire", and shooting upon Exo (or was it Will? I don't remember). Let's replicate that.
5. Living metal of Pimpcane, body enhancement. INJECT IT INTO YOURSEEEELF-style, with patching up wounds from inside, growing "bones", or maybe even flying. Prone to danger of cutting you up.
That's it for now, I guess. More coming soon!
Post by: Pancaek on October 21, 2015, 11:57:44 am
Truly a black day.Well, technically I'm dead, so I can't tinker."No Pancaek. You are the police."
BUT I DON'T SEE THE POLICE, SO I WILL ANYWAY.
And then Pancaek was a tinkerer.
Also, I somehow mixed up the deathcube with the HEP pyramid. Derp.
Post by: NAV on October 21, 2015, 11:58:41 am
2. A floating telekinesis hand that can grab and manipulate things from a distance.
3. Something based on Skylar's god computer. Reprogram reality.
Post by: Nunzillor on October 21, 2015, 12:03:58 pm
2. Lethal, more heavily AOP-inspired variants of the crowd-wire gloves might be cool.
3. Summoning box: a small auto-manipulator designed for quick bursts of space magic to attract the attention of... something else. Throw it at a UWM-entrenched position and run away, fast.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 21, 2015, 12:11:11 pm
Post by: Moopli on October 21, 2015, 01:28:50 pm
Open a localized tear in reality, let it slap stuff about a bit, use overwhelming force to close the tear.
Maybe use a nuke put inside a kinetic shunt for that energy, just for the cool-factor of it.
2: A fresh newborn (or maybe older, idk. Tiny kids are portable but a grown man would have more flesh) given the IVAN treatment and implanted with a bunch of brain-interface tech. Or just a bunch of vat-grown normal flesh with the IVAN treatment, if that's easily-controllable. IVANing a full body seems convenient because there's already a control system ready to hijack. It might be our replacement for synthflesh, no better way to test it than on a critical mission!
Post by: Pancaek on October 21, 2015, 03:35:21 pm
Hey, can I annoy someone kind and obliging? I'm kinda finickety about my new replies box, and tbh Tinker would take up a lot of my time trying to understand the science, and I'd be tempted to look, and I'm trying to get on with schoolwork and all, so:
Would somebody mind crossposting, probably just this once, some random idea I had into the Tinker Thread? Pretty please? Just a quote?Spoiler: possible tinkering (click to show/hide)
Just as a submission to the new exo weapon thing. And yes, I know this is anal and pointless of me.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on October 21, 2015, 03:52:59 pm
Sharkmist self replenishing medkits.
Sharkmist melee weapons that produce acids/venoms.
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 21, 2015, 05:11:46 pm
Quote
ALRIGHT
We need more Exo and Uncon weapons ASAP so I'm giving Tinkerers a lot more free reign. Submit ideas, suggestions, finished submitting, anything. Straight up token payments to accepted ideas and royalties from purchases.
Ahaha oh my this is gonna go so bad. I love it already.
Quote
The world's a funny place when I regret things that haven't happened yet.It's like a phantom pain but with the wrong causality.
HEY NIK, I assume we can officially suspend the 'need Hep approval' for tinker things now, right?
Ok, so let's do this bit by bit:
1) First, that blaster pistol upgrade, is that ok? I'll do non-deathtube exo/uncon things after this (and try to scrap ideas from the list that seem to have been mentioned before).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2) sharkmist. Could it be used to do any of the following?
-A treatment that fuses them with the body, like what happened to Milno
-An actual body made out of the stuff
-a big box with sharkmist that can take various shapes and forms or functionalities to do things
3) A riot shield made out of forcefield? Or a battlesuit sized one? Or straight up armor suit (maybe made from a lot of small pieces of field?)
4) An armor upgrade made from magic-eating pollen.
5) Those adaptable organic computers. Mix that with god-computer knowledge for fun and horrible effects (aka you say what you want to see done, then the organic computer reprograms itself while using the knowledge of the skylar god computer to make it happen).
6) The termite/glowworm gun. Something based off of that, perhaps allowing us to control the aliens for a change?
7) Remember what the doc did to old Xan, the shapeshifting? That, as a genemod.
8) Heabi sample. Could tie into number 7.
9) cerebrovore: genemod that lets one absorb the knowledge/skills of something by eating it/its brain. Scope of entities that can be affected up to you (can it absorb only human knowledge, anything with a similar brain structure, anything carbon based and intelligent, anything intelligent at all?)
10) that mustard gas that melted things. Would probably go into a gun or grenade of some sort though. Maybe as a chem thrower ammo type?
11) A whip that has one, or several, of the following:
-kinamp on the end
-ability to electrify the cord (with variable intensity)
-make it hollow so a bit of crystalline projector material is in it, after which a little is forced out of the tip when the whip cracks to deposit it and allow for a crystal to grow out
-make it so a little bit of high energy fuel or whatever is pushed out the end upon whipcrack, which then detonates (aka explosive whip)
12) a pope hat that interfaces with the brain of the user and allows wearer to sense all kinds of stuff (sensors are in the hat and feed dierectly to the brain so more and subtle fluctuations can be sensed). Could use sensors from earlier sensor package.
13) retractable forcefield claws
14) you know the 3D maneuvring gear from attack on Titan? That, but better (and allows user to pull things or people toward him, and maybe also can be used offensively like arbiter wires). And maybe the option to run electricity through it, why not.
((Can we only propose stuff that have some sort of in-game reason to exist, aka based on recovered artifacts, or should we just yell whatever we think of and let handwaving explain how we get it?))
Post by: Moopli on October 21, 2015, 05:51:25 pm
QuoteALRIGHT
We need more Exo and Uncon weapons ASAP so I'm giving Tinkerers a lot more free reign. Submit ideas, suggestions, finished submitting, anything. Straight up token payments to accepted ideas and royalties from purchases.
Ahaha oh my this is gonna go so bad. I love it already.
4) An armor upgrade made from magic-eating pollen.
Wow what? What did I miss? Is this the gratesplosion "pollen with strange red glow" that the wiki is wonderfully vague about?
I presume people were looking into this thing already, is there a chance we can make use of loads of this stuff to harden space-magic devices against unintended anomalous side effects?
[spoiler=possible tinkering]PODIAL GALVANISER
A nutrient-filled tank connected to a computer, electrifiable wires or conductive microfilaments entering the tank.
The limbs and organs of nonhuman life forms of a relatively normal variety can be placed in the tank, damp end first, and allowed to extend out of it.
The wires can connect to the synapses and nerves of the limb and organs, firing them at varying rates. Various neurochemical dumps can also be placed in the tank.
These electrical impulses or chemical messages can be used to control the movement of the living matter, using it for whatever rending, grappling, slicing, spraying or climbing function it was originally intended for.
It comes with a selection of organs or limbs from the ARM stockpiles, but more interesting ones can be bought or collected in the field.
Now, I would probably have to go back to NJW with this, though that would run against his wish to not get sucked into the Tinker thread, so: might it not be better to have a tighter seal in the machine-limb interface? Stick the bloody end of an arm into an aperture, an iris closes, a seal is made, the arm is held firmly, mechanically, and a bunch of little tubey things attach to the blood vessels, and wires to the nerves.
Fake blood is pumped into each blood vessel until a good flow direction is established, nerves are zapped to wrench the arm around a bit until calibrated, and boom, you have an arm kept useful.
Seems like it could have just as much medical use, with the tech switched around to allow, say, an in-field life-saving device mounted on (or replacing!) the chest to replace pumping and gas-exchange functions of the vital organs, and maybe nutrient-provision too, shouldn't be hard with some special nutrition packs.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 21, 2015, 06:28:18 pm
A metal gauntlet that uses telerifle-based tech to allow the user to teleport small distances. Uses bluerad power cells which save on weight by ditching any radiation shielding, instead dropping the cell just before teleportation. This has the downside of irradiating the area the user leaves from. Teleporting into an occupied space may have serious side effects.
Cost ~15 Token. Requires Exo +2.
Post by: renegadelobster on October 21, 2015, 11:34:44 pm
Tyrant's fist((Could use it to instead transport small spheres of metal into other objects on purpose. That way you can cause !!FUN!! on purpose! Yay!))
A metal gauntlet that uses telerifle-based tech to allow the user to teleport small distances. Uses bluerad power cells which save on weight by ditching any radiation shielding, instead dropping the cell just before teleportation. This has the downside of irradiating the area the user leaves from. Teleporting into an occupied space may have serious side effects.
Cost ~15 Token. Requires Exo +2.
Post by: Lenglon on October 22, 2015, 09:43:56 am
current system problems: initial plasma generation without amp / manip / automanip input.
token cost at last time of evaluation is unfeasibly high for the results provided
Post by: Hapah on October 22, 2015, 09:45:33 am
Post by: NAV on October 22, 2015, 10:25:01 am
2. Renen's blade.
Post by: Nikitian on October 22, 2015, 10:40:18 am
2. Renen's blade.FYC: Renen's blade was unique (read: Doctor's homebrew tech, probably extremely expensive, like every other upgrade he gave his prototype robot overlords) and default Forcefield Monosword was anyway made to the exact specs of Renen's blade (because, I presumed, Doctor's design would already be optimal in many ways).
I'm not really denying the possibility of recreating Renen's blade for everyone's use, just pointing out some details.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 22, 2015, 10:59:32 am
Post by: Caellath on October 22, 2015, 01:45:24 pm
Generator for standard, but capable of accepting blue radite cells: generator for doing the usual, blue rad if people want to buy it for extra flight time during emergencies or speed boosts.
And how about sharkmist systems that aren't implanted? Like a whip or any other similar tool/weapon made of sharkmist and maybe controlled with a mind impulse interface.
Also, could I get a Will stim as "research incentive" to see what I can glean from the alien power source?
Post by: Gentlefish on October 23, 2015, 02:32:58 am
Throwing ideas to the wall here. Exotic means physics breaking/organic/bodycontrolled/mindfuck right?
I like the idea of unchained sand. I want to be Gaara.
How about hivemind poison? Something like a contact/injected poison that places the victim under one's control much like a queen ant/bee. Maybe something like opposing mind rolls, and roll CHA for complex commands to see what gets through.
I suppose the pimpcane covers this, but what about psionic "bonded" spacemagic arrows like from Guardians of the Galaxy? Or would that also rely on Origin tech?
What about for UnCon, something FTL/scanhit? Or you could give us a Lesser Arbiter's Cudgel.
What about the Elemental infusers? Are those Origin enough to be a problem? Otherwise we could use those in interesting fashions. Like, instead of "infusing" something with fire, we turn a building (or any solid matter in a blast radius) into actual fire. Or ice. Or uranium, or flourine. No reason it has to be a "classical" element, right?
An "alchemist's stone" type of Exo weapon that allows you to rearrange atoms into other atoms, but requires mass to be conserved?
Instability genemenod?
What about Parasyte-style weapon implants? It's essentially organic crowdwire, mind-controlled.
Exo is hard.
Post by: Corsair on October 23, 2015, 03:14:04 am
Portable particle rifles
Tanks,Artillery perhaps small fighter craft for bombing/being an awesome fighter-pilot
That crystal people genemod has my vote 110%
particle weapons for orbital bombardment, because nothing says fuck you like high intensity ionizing radiation and everything being on fire.
Post by: Empiricist on October 23, 2015, 03:25:08 am
Electrically-activated shape memory alloy crossbow with pimpcane metal to quickly draw it rather than relying on a person to do so.
The icecream scoop teleportation weapon. You know, the one that teleports a small amount of matter out of a target so that a chunk of it just falls off? It's even more viable now that it's main competitor has become infested with alien death penii.
Landlord weapons. Pseudo-explosives that are basically just expendable pieces of Origin Tech that are designed to attract as much attention to their immediate area as possible so that the Lurker in the Angles ravages the place. Because if it's here, it may as well pay rent. And we only accept payment in the souls of our foes. And civilians. And occasionally our allies and teammates as well.
Pimpcane slings. Basically turret-like masses of pimpcane metal attached to the user which can be loaded with small pieces of debris (or explosives) that they hurl at foes.
Pimpcane body.
EDIT: Elemental infuser "bombs". Elemental infuser cartridges modified to be single-use but infuses a significantly larger area. So instead of blowing up a structure it can instead render it hazardous to foes. Or used to contain thermophages via cold-infusion of the surrounding region.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on October 23, 2015, 03:47:40 am
Pimpcane slings. Basically turret-like masses of pimpcane metal attached to the user which can be loaded with small pieces of debris (or explosives) that they hurl at foes.
So we are back throwing rocks at our enemies... Funny how technological progress works.
Post by: Dutrius on October 23, 2015, 08:35:46 am
If so, how about a monoatomic bolas and launcher?
How about a regular bolas for non-lethal purposes?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 23, 2015, 08:40:13 am
Specifically, induce spherical forcefields around magnetic materials, then launch them out of a railgun.
Or whatever.
Alternatively, a forcefield spike, in a similar manner as this.
Alternatively, either of those plus something that destabilizes the forcefield for explosions. Like a remote detonator sort of thing.
Yup, throwing rocks at our enemies. Magnetic rocks.
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 23, 2015, 11:57:13 am
Edit: Could call them brainjackers. And I just realised that the zombie analogy becomes more appropriate when you consider the best way to stop them is to cut off the head or destroy the brain.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 23, 2015, 10:53:44 pm
Since my character is in limbo right now, let's just say TOTAL DOMINATION is making this.
Post by: tryrar on October 23, 2015, 11:30:08 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 23, 2015, 11:36:25 pm
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on October 24, 2015, 05:08:34 am
Pimp Dagger
A Monoatomic Razor with small deposits of pimpcane metal (not sure what it's actually called) in the handle. Because flying daggers with invisible blades are a safe idea.
Lenocane
A granular substance composed of pimp metal molecules bonded to calcium. If ingested or injected into the bloodstream, it naturally deposits itself in the bones. Exo users could either do this to themselves, in order to gain psychic control over their own limbs, or to enemies, essentially converting them into meat puppets. For the latter to be feasible, we'd need either syringe guns or hypodermic spears to forcibly deliver the Lenocane.
Uncon:
Radial Monosaw
A messy polearm weapon. It has Five monoatomic razors distributed evenly around a central wheel, each turned at an angle. An axle through the wheel connects it back to its long handle. When the wielder squeezes a button on the handle, internal motors rotate the wheel at a high velocity, allowing him/her to mow down anyone and everyone standing in their path.
Chain Monosaw ("The Gusonator")
A bulkier, close-quarters Monosaw variant. Rather than using full-length razors, the Gusonator has a multitude of tiny (we're talking a few centimeters long) monoatomic blades attatched at a sharp angle to a rotating chain. In appearance, it's essentially a bulky sword-chainsaw hybrid with invisible teeth.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 24, 2015, 05:14:16 am
A forearm mounted carrier that when activated, has a small buzzsaw projected out of it, connected to a small but very powerful motor, each tooth is monomatically thin and made out of fragplate, it has another generator stored inside it to power the motor, and the saw itself can be used for a multitude of things, just don't hit it too hard on anything.
Post by: Xantalos on October 24, 2015, 05:14:50 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 24, 2015, 05:22:18 am
How about weaponising those R&D poles? Carry one of those around, maybe modified to spread the field a bit wider, and you'd have a space magic canceller, effectively.Go ahead, bold that shit, you get monetary benefits if it passes and you don't loose anything if it doesn't.
Post by: Xantalos on October 24, 2015, 05:26:08 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on October 24, 2015, 06:42:42 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on October 24, 2015, 06:52:13 am
I'm pretty sure those poles give you the meta-cancer. Slowly erasing you from reality, or something like that.S'not as bad as what can also happen to you.
Post by: Moopli on October 24, 2015, 11:52:49 am
1: Think there's any way we can harness the destructive energies of this alien god?
Open a localized tear in reality, let it slap stuff about a bit, use overwhelming force to close the tear.
Maybe use a nuke put inside a kinetic shunt for that energy, just for the cool-factor of it.
2: A fresh newborn (or maybe older, idk. Tiny kids are portable but a grown man would have more flesh) given the IVAN treatment and implanted with a bunch of brain-interface tech. Or just a bunch of vat-grown normal flesh with the IVAN treatment, if that's easily-controllable. IVANing a full body seems convenient because there's already a control system ready to hijack. It might be our replacement for synthflesh, no better way to test it than on a critical mission!
Boldinated and updated:
An IVANated, weaponized, completely implant-controlled human. Essentially an extra body for the owner, useful for stuffing full of crazy flesh-magic (tentacles, BEES, etc). With a production line cranking these bodies out, you can avoid the expense of a meticulous IVANing procedure because it's not your body that might suddenly turn into a murderhappy cicada demon if the procedure goes wrong! Comes in multiple sizes/costs, from beefcake bruiser to portable toddler.
Hmm. Could we use carefully-arranged lattices of antimagicpollen around an active manipulator to somehow 'speak the language' of the Lurker in the Angles, and restrict the crazy stuff he can do, perhaps as a way of directing his chaotic energies somewhat, so instead of being a danger to everything around it, it's only a danger to a controllable subset of what's around it? Perhaps, going forward, we can integrate the pollen into the magic-circuitry of Origin devices, hardening them against chaos enough that we can develop, say, automanips for ships again. Perhaps requiring more frequent maintenance, and less use, but usable nonetheless.
Maybe we could have another couple scientific excursion missions to weird and wacky places to look for more antimagic artifacts, to effectively protect ourselves from the lurker's chaos, giving us a massive edge over UWM.
Post by: AkumaKasai on October 24, 2015, 12:17:41 pm
Post by: piecewise on October 25, 2015, 12:25:54 pm
Technically my char is on a mission, but...[Council]
Multi-Role weapon Mk.III
What we do, is we take a Mk.II of this line and replace laser rifle fire module with blaster rifle fire module and regular durable blade with Force Monosword. That's gonna be bulky, but you'll have a much better idea of where you monosword blade is because of the rifle part. And more firepower. And more cutting potential. Hence Mk.III designation.
Requirements: Exoskeleton strength, Uncon +1, Dex+1
Price: 6-8 tokens with Blaster Rifle clips?
Well, technically I'm dead, so I can't tinker.1. We could do that, but then you'd basically have to roll everytime you want to move your arm.
BUT I DON'T SEE THE POLICE, SO I WILL ANYWAY. This is mostly going to be stuff that already exists in a different form, because I lack imagination. Also focused on exo stuff, because that's been kind of my thing these last three years.
1. something pretty simple, an entire hand/arm made from the same stuff as the pimpcane. Pretty straightforward. means you got the interface thingy build in as well, so you can't lose it.
2. If you'll all allow me a moment of sillyness, maybe even an entire body made of the stuff. No idea how we'd make sight and hearing and shit work, but being able to repurpose your entire body would be neat.
3. A force infuser that uses the entire body to charge up the battery? To allow for multiple charges or one big charge?
4. Maybe we could put some of the weirder doctor things from the days of yore in the armoury? Like Renen's body and his bullettime? Those could come in handy, and I'm sure there are more that I've forgotten.
5. I don't suppose our tech boys could reverse engineer thedeathcubeHEP pyramid? I know they engineer the HEP from it, but maybe we could get a sort of knock-off deathcube?
Those are the first things that spring to mind, I might come up with more stuff later. Don't hold your breath.
2.Same problem.
3. ?
4. We could look into it, but the problem is that they're fairly unbalanced unless they're massively expensive and only a few people have them.
5. As in one that replicates the thing rather than just the power output?
1. We can do that but the [Council] would have to ok the use of a technically limitless, self replicating weapon with the very real possibility of gray goo.Well, technically I'm dead, so I can't tinker."No Pancaek. You are the police."
BUT I DON'T SEE THE POLICE, SO I WILL ANYWAY.
And then Pancaek was a tinkerer.
Anyway, let's join the festival, shall we?
1. Anomaly sand, unchained (as discussed earlier). Tuned to work with a "tuning fork" made of that super-vibrating metal we have recently discovered among Hephaestus anomalies.
2. Those crystals from the Crystalline Projector. Does anyone else remember that they were hinted at being "mildly psychic"? Time to use that up to eleven. (That has been my intention for a long time, and that's why it was even scheduled for research on Hephaestus... let's say that research succeeded or something.)
3. Those same crystals, only now as a body modification. Finally time to finish the Doctor's experiment of infusing flesh with crystals, only now in a controlled fashion with the user being End-boosted during the infusion.
4. The Pyramid we created HEP from. Originally, it had a very different "firing" mechanism, shooting more "lightning" or "force" (see: Milno's mangled limb) than "fire", and shooting upon Exo (or was it Will? I don't remember). Let's replicate that.
5. Living metal of Pimpcane, body enhancement. INJECT IT INTO YOURSEEEELF-style, with patching up wounds from inside, growing "bones", or maybe even flying. Prone to danger of cutting you up.
That's it for now, I guess. More coming soon!
2-3: Could work. [Council]
4. Another for the hep pyramid. ok.
5. Another for living metal body parts. Ok.
1. A sledgehammer that resonates a lot and causes earthquakes, destroys buildings, shatters armour. The higher your skill the better the control of course. Could be based on that super resonating metal from the gratesplosion.1. Get out of here, tesla. Resonant frequencies don't work like that.
2. A floating telekinesis hand that can grab and manipulate things from a distance.
3. Something based on Skylar's god computer. Reprogram reality.
2. Get out of here, Elfin Lied. Also, do you mean hands made of telekinesis or robot hands that are controlled by your mind?
3. Talk to hap~
1. What about burnout manip variants, like the amps from M14? If you can only use manipulators a couple of times, they ought to become more powerful. Alternatively, the ability to connect several brains together ghostship style (if those still work) for the same purpose.The problem isn't that you can only use it a few times. The problem is the angry god on the other end that notices you poking it in the ass. That doesn't make the amps stronger nor does it make combining brains able to use them more.
2. Lethal, more heavily AOP-inspired variants of the crowd-wire gloves might be cool.
3. Summoning box: a small auto-manipulator designed for quick bursts of space magic to attract the attention of... something else. Throw it at a UWM-entrenched position and run away, fast.
We could just straight port their gloves to human use. [council] Be ready for your teammates to slice you and themselves apart accidentally.
This seems a lot like the overload bomb ideas.
1: Think there's any way we can harness the destructive energies of this alien god?There sure are a lot of people around here who wanna stick their dick in the alien god. Getting the attention of the thing that is RIGHT NOW eating a solar system is probably a poor idea.
Open a localized tear in reality, let it slap stuff about a bit, use overwhelming force to close the tear.
Maybe use a nuke put inside a kinetic shunt for that energy, just for the cool-factor of it.
2: A fresh newborn (or maybe older, idk. Tiny kids are portable but a grown man would have more flesh) given the IVAN treatment and implanted with a bunch of brain-interface tech. Or just a bunch of vat-grown normal flesh with the IVAN treatment, if that's easily-controllable. IVANing a full body seems convenient because there's already a control system ready to hijack. It might be our replacement for synthflesh, no better way to test it than on a critical mission!
I'm not sure what you're going for here besides a war crime.
PW, crossposting NJW2000's submission for the new exo/uncon tinkeringHmm, as much as I like the idea of someone lugging tank with a car battery and a giant alien battle penis sticking out of it onto the front lines of battle, I have severe doubts in how useful it will be.Hey, can I annoy someone kind and obliging? I'm kinda finickety about my new replies box, and tbh Tinker would take up a lot of my time trying to understand the science, and I'd be tempted to look, and I'm trying to get on with schoolwork and all, so:
Would somebody mind crossposting, probably just this once, some random idea I had into the Tinker Thread? Pretty please? Just a quote?Spoiler: possible tinkering (click to show/hide)
Just as a submission to the new exo weapon thing. And yes, I know this is anal and pointless of me.
Blueraditite EMP/ECM grenades.Bluerad emp/ecm eh? Hmmm
Sharkmist self replenishing medkits.
Sharkmist melee weapons that produce acids/venoms.
We should look into sharkmist stuff for generating ammo and such.
Hmm. That could work. [council]
Of course, all these shark mist things would need to be fed.
1. Yeah thats fineQuoteALRIGHT
We need more Exo and Uncon weapons ASAP so I'm giving Tinkerers a lot more free reign. Submit ideas, suggestions, finished submitting, anything. Straight up token payments to accepted ideas and royalties from purchases.
Ahaha oh my this is gonna go so bad. I love it already.QuoteThe world's a funny place when I regret things that haven't happened yet.It's like a phantom pain but with the wrong causality.
HEY NIK, I assume we can officially suspend the 'need Hep approval' for tinker things now, right?
Ok, so let's do this bit by bit:
1) First, that blaster pistol upgrade, is that ok? I'll do non-deathtube exo/uncon things after this (and try to scrap ideas from the list that seem to have been mentioned before).Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2) sharkmist. Could it be used to do any of the following?
-A treatment that fuses them with the body, like what happened to Milno
-An actual body made out of the stuff
-a big box with sharkmist that can take various shapes and forms or functionalities to do things
3) A riot shield made out of forcefield? Or a battlesuit sized one? Or straight up armor suit (maybe made from a lot of small pieces of field?)
4) An armor upgrade made from magic-eating pollen.
5) Those adaptable organic computers. Mix that with god-computer knowledge for fun and horrible effects (aka you say what you want to see done, then the organic computer reprograms itself while using the knowledge of the skylar god computer to make it happen).
6) The termite/glowworm gun. Something based off of that, perhaps allowing us to control the aliens for a change?
7) Remember what the doc did to old Xan, the shapeshifting? That, as a genemod.
8) Heabi sample. Could tie into number 7.
9) cerebrovore: genemod that lets one absorb the knowledge/skills of something by eating it/its brain. Scope of entities that can be affected up to you (can it absorb only human knowledge, anything with a similar brain structure, anything carbon based and intelligent, anything intelligent at all?)
10) that mustard gas that melted things. Would probably go into a gun or grenade of some sort though. Maybe as a chem thrower ammo type?
11) A whip that has one, or several, of the following:
-kinamp on the end
-ability to electrify the cord (with variable intensity)
-make it hollow so a bit of crystalline projector material is in it, after which a little is forced out of the tip when the whip cracks to deposit it and allow for a crystal to grow out
-make it so a little bit of high energy fuel or whatever is pushed out the end upon whipcrack, which then detonates (aka explosive whip)
12) a pope hat that interfaces with the brain of the user and allows wearer to sense all kinds of stuff (sensors are in the hat and feed dierectly to the brain so more and subtle fluctuations can be sensed). Could use sensors from earlier sensor package.
13) retractable forcefield claws
14) you know the 3D maneuvring gear from attack on Titan? That, but better (and allows user to pull things or people toward him, and maybe also can be used offensively like arbiter wires). And maybe the option to run electricity through it, why not.
((Can we only propose stuff that have some sort of in-game reason to exist, aka based on recovered artifacts, or should we just yell whatever we think of and let handwaving explain how we get it?))
2. Difficult, but maybe.
Don't we already have that to a degree with Kri's emergency limbs? Expanding it wouldn't be hard. Unless you're talking about a body made of living, mutable sharkmist?
Uh huh. Sounds more like what the pimp cane was made for. Or the sand.
Thats not really a weapon. Nor is it exo or uncon. It's possible, but not what we're looking for now.
We could do that, and it would protect against space magic, but they're fairly fragile otherwise.
Hmm, maybe.
Glowworm gun we can create, but it's gonna be a con/exo combination weapon.
We want more Xans?
Haebi transforming weapons could work well. [council]
Hmmm...an interesting idea. Could work well...in before we have a murderer on board who finds a way to eat the brain of a few vets and become a supervet.
Hmm...containing it will be hard. Need to use forcefields. But possible.
Whip...kinamp at the end is begging for trouble, but the others seem viable.
Hmm maybe.
The claws might work.
Hmm. Humans probably couldn't use it due to spine breaking and such, but the idea isn't bad.
Tyrant's fistInteresting idea for a system but why put it in a fist?
A metal gauntlet that uses telerifle-based tech to allow the user to teleport small distances. Uses bluerad power cells which save on weight by ditching any radiation shielding, instead dropping the cell just before teleportation. This has the downside of irradiating the area the user leaves from. Teleporting into an occupied space may have serious side effects.
Cost ~15 Token. Requires Exo +2.
Grenades that do the same stuff the Grav Shells do.Thats possible. [council]
1. In mission 7 there was a robot wielding "a 5 foot long cudgel or blade, it's exact shape lost in the boiling white heat pouring off it." We could replicate that, we have all the files.Superheated club? We can do that. [council]
2. Renen's blade.
Renen's blade is possible to duplicate but is very expensive. And using it is very hard.
Could forge a blade from coldspike provided it can hold an edgeWe could do that, though it would need a special scabbard. Useful against warm flesh but not against much else.
Reposting, just in case.Lets put off the flight pack for the moment. But for the record, you could probably get reasonable flight periods of a few minutes with a small generator.Generator for standard, but capable of accepting blue radite cells: generator for doing the usual, blue rad if people want to buy it for extra flight time during emergencies or speed boosts.
And how about sharkmist systems that aren't implanted? Like a whip or any other similar tool/weapon made of sharkmist and maybe controlled with a mind impulse interface.
Also, could I get a Will stim as "research incentive" to see what I can glean from the alien power source?
Possible.
Sure.
((Given "downtime" on hiveworld I, I can TOTALLY SCRIBBLE PAPERS THAT COUNT AS TINKER))
Throwing ideas to the wall here. Exotic means physics breaking/organic/bodycontrolled/mindfuck right?
I like the idea of unchained sand. I want to be Gaara.
How about hivemind poison? Something like a contact/injected poison that places the victim under one's control much like a queen ant/bee. Maybe something like opposing mind rolls, and roll CHA for complex commands to see what gets through.
I suppose the pimpcane covers this, but what about psionic "bonded" spacemagic arrows like from Guardians of the Galaxy? Or would that also rely on Origin tech?
What about for UnCon, something FTL/scanhit? Or you could give us a Lesser Arbiter's Cudgel.
What about the Elemental infusers? Are those Origin enough to be a problem? Otherwise we could use those in interesting fashions. Like, instead of "infusing" something with fire, we turn a building (or any solid matter in a blast radius) into actual fire. Or ice. Or uranium, or flourine. No reason it has to be a "classical" element, right?
An "alchemist's stone" type of Exo weapon that allows you to rearrange atoms into other atoms, but requires mass to be conserved?That's literally IVAN.
Instability genemenod?
What about Parasyte-style weapon implants? It's essentially organic crowdwire, mind-controlled.
Exo is hard.
Interesting idea. However, it needs a weapon system, not just the poison itself.
Never seen that movie, So I don't know. If they're just projectiles that are controlled by the mind then there are a few options, but pimp cane metal is probably best.
Not sure what you mean by FTL/scanhit. But the white hot cudgel is probably more realistic than the arbiter one in terms of price.
Elemental infusers don't use origin tech, but they are limited in the elements they infuse and how.
Possible I suppose.
Thats possible...sort of a limited free organic mutation system that allows you to have a particular part of your body go flesh horror. [Council]
I think thats enough for today. I'll look over the rest later. Try to hold your comments till I'm done with the current batch our we'll be here forever.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on October 25, 2015, 01:38:38 pm
Quote
1. Get out of here, tesla. Resonant frequencies don't work like that.Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
Certainly wouldn't be as useful if it wasn't stuck to... *ideabulb*
Sticky/magnetic resonators to basically vibrate the heck out of something.
Also, reiterating the exploding forcefield thing because I'm not sure you noticed.
A forcefield railgun.Right, I'll stop talking before you get out the black die.
Specifically, induce spherical forcefields around magnetic materials, then launch them out of a railgun.
Or whatever.
Alternatively, a forcefield spike, in a similar manner as this.
Alternatively, either of those plus something that destabilizes the forcefield for explosions. Like a remote detonator sort of thing.
Yup, throwing rocks at our enemies. Magnetic rocks.
Post by: Lenglon on October 25, 2015, 01:53:38 pm
((Please be less wrong, especially when you cite a real event. If you'd made something up I'd be more willing to forgive you, but you citing a real one and still not having a damn clue how it works is unacceptable. All resonating hammers will do is break themselves, it will not and can not spread to other objects / areas. don't be dumb.))Quote1. Get out of here, tesla. Resonant frequencies don't work like that.Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
Post by: Nikitian on October 25, 2015, 02:13:27 pm
I can remember a few more cases where the destruction of a bridge was caused through resonance frequency mechanics - specifically, for example, by soldiers stepping in cadence, so it's not that improbably difficult to produce frequency, it's the matter of guessing it correctly which is complicated.
(Of course, there is the matter that it might have harder time working on big, complex and interconnected objects like, say, "surface of a planet" (:P), but with enough force and precision 'exploding' a bridge, a building or something like that shouldn't be out of the realm of possible, I think.)
Oh, and of course, the hammer in question shouldn't itself resonate. Its name comes from it causing other things to resonate. Kind of misleading, I guess.))
Post by: Lenglon on October 25, 2015, 02:47:30 pm
Post by: Nikitian on October 25, 2015, 03:01:40 pm
And, I think, it's not limited to just bridges. To my knowledge, it's also explicitly forbidden to march indoors, for example. Though we might be talking about different cases with different causes.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 25, 2015, 03:13:55 pm
Quote
I think thats enough for today. I'll look over the rest later. Try to hold your comments till I'm done with the current batch our we'll be here forever.
People, please stop posting here until pw has given the green light. We have Hep OOC for all your tinker discussion needs. This also make things much easier for the council peeps, aka the people going over your numerous projects.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Post by: spazyak on October 26, 2015, 09:42:38 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on October 26, 2015, 12:50:57 pm
So I've been thinking, te artifact bougt by the Common soldier's union contains little gems in it. What if we were to carve them into lenses and replace the lenses in our laser rifles with them?Do it far away from me. But it's a good question.
Post by: spazyak on October 26, 2015, 12:58:32 pm
ok...probably what I'm going to do right before hopping into the drop pods IF I get chosen.So I've been thinking, te artifact bougt by the Common soldier's union contains little gems in it. What if we were to carve them into lenses and replace the lenses in our laser rifles with them?Do it far away from me. But it's a good question.
Post by: Nunzillor on October 26, 2015, 01:03:40 pm
Post by: spazyak on October 26, 2015, 01:11:41 pm
Hmm I thought Sullen Moon is on M24?is it, hmmm ok guess I'll have to do afterwards...I wonder what sullen moon tastes like on donuts
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 26, 2015, 01:15:54 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.0
Post by: Maegil on December 14, 2015, 02:22:16 pm
"I'm Dr. Arty. That way? Thank you."
Arty heads to the VR and runs "Tinker".
((Should I take it to the Hephestus OOC thread, or am I mistaken?))
ooooh...I'll have to actually do tinker again?
ALRIGHT, FINE.
Tinker thread is reopened. Post or repost whatever you want me to look at.
I noticed that the MkII and MPC-II and above have medical delivery systems, multiple irises and a biotelemetry sensor suite, but there's nothing in the MPC-I, long coats and sharksuits, probably other stuff too. I'm not talking about EEG or biochemistry either, they don't have even the most basic vital sign sensors...
A quick search on eBay got me a blood pressure, respiratory and heart rate (among other things) wristwatch for US$20, and a pulse oxymeter for about US$7.50. I didn't even bothered to link the thermometers, since they're so cheap.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My point is that including basic vital signs monitors in every helmet would be completely trivial, and could vastly improve the
Post by: renegadelobster on December 14, 2015, 04:14:18 pm
The "Shredder" suit
Short version, take a MkIII (or assault suit), add a fuck ton of knives and swords and shit, then add a little bit of armoring (or take away for assault suit) and rockets to not die instantly.
Long version, again start with a MkIII (or assault suit). Then add monoswords, force swords, white hot
Edit: Could also have forcefield armor to further reduce weight. AoT style maneuvering pack for quick erratic change of direction. AoP crowd wire style gloves because why the hell not at this point. Claymores if using an assault suit to encourage people to let go/get off of the suit. Some of that invisibility spray that one guy got during the attack on Hephaestus. Not to be completely invisible, just to be harder to see with the naked eye. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions :)
MOAR EDITS: Solid light armor. Especially if it uses uncon, and this is mostly an Uncon suit. Yeah. Controllable armor thickness.
Post by: Nunzillor on December 14, 2015, 04:17:08 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 14, 2015, 04:38:39 pm
Could also add arbiter-like crowd wires.
Post by: Nunzillor on December 14, 2015, 04:50:34 pm
Could also add arbiter-like crowd wires.+1
Post by: Aigre Excalibur on December 14, 2015, 05:06:10 pm
On another note, what do we have in the way of anti-manip defenses?
Post by: Nunzillor on December 14, 2015, 05:15:21 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on December 14, 2015, 08:08:46 pm
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on December 14, 2015, 08:27:03 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on December 14, 2015, 08:53:28 pm
Post by: syvarris on December 14, 2015, 10:19:41 pm
WE CAN TINKER AGAIN?! CAN I?! PLEASE?! 8D
1.Take the Heavy Robotic Body, and strip off the layer of hex composite (=cost of 2 battlesuit plate layers). Also, remove the kin. amps. Add the largest Solid Light Matter Generator it can carry, and a Solid Light Protection Field, too. Beef up the manuevering systems somewhat, so that it maintains excessive mobility. My intention is to make a more practical melee variant suit, specifically for Uncon people.
2.Rough cost estimate? I know the solid light stuff hasn't been priced yet, but is it tech that's nearly as expensive as the suit itself, or more economical than that?
Sibilus:
3.The below is meant to be answered entirely without you checking any of the wiki pages or anything. I specifically want your gut reaction, so that we can measure power creep. This is important--it's for an argument I was having a little while ago.
4.Remember the Sibilus? It's the hybrid rocket/gauss rifle that Pyro designed. Milno's gauntlet ate one, and he sometimes uses it. I want to VR-shoot a milnoplate armored person with one shot. What happens?
5....Then one overcharged shot. (3x gauss coils firing at once). What happens?
6....Then one super overcharged shot. (3x gauss coils overcharging at once). What happens?
7.Please don't hurt me. I'm just an addict.
@Radio
((Hey, can you and the council look at the Doctrine yet?))
Hey, council people, you took over weapon statistics and pricing, right? I figured I could post the information on the Doctrine (shard weapon between testament and PSL), since it's not doing anything PW hasn't approved. It's just miniaturizing the PSL less.
If this is okay, then please vet it. If not, that's fine.Spoiler: Armory entry (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Mechanical explanation (click to show/hide)Spoiler: My intentions with this (click to show/hide)
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on December 14, 2015, 10:23:31 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 14, 2015, 10:53:47 pm
when are the new items coming in?
can we change the shape and size of the dimensional door connected to our pocket dimensions, and if so can we do it more than once?
Post by: NAV on December 14, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Project name: Heavy Exoskeleton
-It is just an exoskeleton, upgraded to the same strength as a synthflesh body. Simple.
-Aim for 7-8 tokens
We need something to fill this strength tier since synthflesh is unavailable.
Project name: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton
-Take the heavy exoskeleton and add armour. That is all.
-For armour, a thinner version of assault suit armour.
-Aim for 10-12 tokens.
This is intended to fill a niche between assaultsuit and standard exoskeleton. Provide lots of protection but still lets the wearer move freely indoors, and doesn't require getting your head chopped off. Sort of like an updated and militarized version of Auron's mining exosuit.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 14, 2015, 11:56:27 pm
NO TINKERING ON MISSION.
Post by: Nunzillor on December 15, 2015, 12:01:25 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 15, 2015, 12:02:48 am
Post by: Nunzillor on December 15, 2015, 12:04:02 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 15, 2015, 12:08:11 am
Take Mk I, fill with those ballistic gel inserts, add omnidirectional jetpack.
Instant pinball wizard.
Post by: NAV on December 15, 2015, 12:09:41 am
NO. BAD NAV.Aww, but everyone else is doing it :'(
NO TINKERING ON MISSION.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on December 15, 2015, 12:56:45 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 15, 2015, 04:46:12 am
Or maybe at least first check if he's ok with mission peeps doing real tinkering (as opposed to just asking some small questions).
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on December 15, 2015, 05:23:33 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 15, 2015, 06:06:32 am
@syv: We'll look into it.
Post by: Maegil on December 15, 2015, 06:17:27 am
Snif... :'(
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 15, 2015, 06:55:18 am
...and nobody as much as bothered to comment on my basically free helmet modification for a great functionality improvement...
Snif... :'(
Why do we need a vital stats monitor? Steve is point-blank not gonna put irrelevant stuff into the free mass-produced "I don't trust you yet" space-nappy.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 15, 2015, 07:03:24 am
dont even need to modify the helmet.
Post by: Maegil on December 15, 2015, 07:19:39 am
Why do we need a vital stats monitor? Steve is point-blank not gonna put irrelevant stuff into the free mass-produced "I don't trust you yet" space-nappy.
There's this medical monitoring program that's quite useful for medics and team leaders to keep track on the team's condition, however
Monitoring system we can get you, but I think it just gets data from the monitoring systems in MKII or better suits.
Well, that's why. I'm not suggesting to fit a full diagnostics and medication dispenser systems like in the MkII, just some very basic stuff that can be found for less than US$30 on eBay and could improve both the medics and the leaders' access to important data.
Spoiler: "Aliens" M577 APC Tactical Operations Centre (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on December 15, 2015, 01:18:40 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSv6mtS6ds
"I'm Dr. Arty. That way? Thank you."
Arty heads to the VR and runs "Tinker".
((Should I take it to the Hephestus OOC thread, or am I mistaken?))
ooooh...I'll have to actually do tinker again?
ALRIGHT, FINE.
Tinker thread is reopened. Post or repost whatever you want me to look at.
I noticed that the MkII and MPC-II and above have medical delivery systems, multiple irises and a biotelemetry sensor suite, but there's nothing in the MPC-I, long coats and sharksuits, probably other stuff too. I'm not talking about EEG or biochemistry either, they don't have even the most basic vital sign sensors...
A quick search on eBay got me a blood pressure, respiratory and heart rate (among other things) wristwatch for US$20, and a pulse oxymeter for about US$7.50. I didn't even bothered to link the thermometers, since they're so cheap.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My point is that including basic vital signs monitors in every helmet would be completely trivial, and could vastly improve themedics' opportunity to roleplaysurvival rates of those who can't or don't want to use a more advanced MkII, MPC-II or better suit.
We could actually just modify wristpads that everyone already has to use this stuff, so you wouldn't even need to be wearing a suit for it to work.
In fact, consider it done.
Everyone just has it now.
((I am so sorry PW))"Controllable armor thickness"
The "Shredder" suit
Short version, take a MkIII (or assault suit), add a fuck ton of knives and swords and shit, then add a little bit of armoring (or take away for assault suit) and rockets to not die instantly.
Long version, again start with a MkIII (or assault suit). Then add monoswords, force swords, white hotcudgelsword, cold infused swords, ghost blade, basically anything and everything. Attachment point on the forearms, with a sheath system that allows you to retract them out of the way and only have out certain ones. Also, probably a little space magic will be involved, but, a way to launch them out at targets, and then also a way to recall them. Beef up the rockets for more maneuverability, some light armoring (or take away some for assault suit) and a beefed up exoskeleton to handle the weight. Use an MMI to control it, and say, oh, +2 Uncon, +1 Aux, and +2 Dex to use. Hit hard and fast, then run like hell the other way. Rinse, repeat, try to not die.
Edit: Could also have forcefield armor to further reduce weight. AoT style maneuvering pack for quick erratic change of direction. AoP crowd wire style gloves because why the hell not at this point. Claymores if using an assault suit to encourage people to let go/get off of the suit. Some of that invisibility spray that one guy got during the attack on Hephaestus. Not to be completely invisible, just to be harder to see with the naked eye. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions :)
MOAR EDITS: Solid light armor. Especially if it uses uncon, and this is mostly an Uncon suit. Yeah. Controllable armor thickness.
You want to make everything a fucking question about armor thickness?!
Why would you do this to me? Why do you hurt me so?
Works in theory of course, but might be very expensive with all that variety. Maybe narrow down the selection a bit?
((Forcefields are pretty much too expensive to be useful for any form of armor. BS Plate is vastly cheaper, by token-to-protection ratio. Also, I think it would be extremely difficult to have a forcefield strong enough to protect you to any decent degree, while remaining weak enough that it has a controllable blast.))Well "as big as it can carry" is gonna be expensive, but the theory is fine and the actual thing could be made economical. Not cheap but not outrageous. I don't remember the cost of the original but it would probably be something a bit more expensive.
WE CAN TINKER AGAIN?! CAN I?! PLEASE?! 8D
1.Take the Heavy Robotic Body, and strip off the layer of hex composite (=cost of 2 battlesuit plate layers). Also, remove the kin. amps. Add the largest Solid Light Matter Generator it can carry, and a Solid Light Protection Field, too. Beef up the manuevering systems somewhat, so that it maintains excessive mobility. My intention is to make a more practical melee variant suit, specifically for Uncon people.
2.Rough cost estimate? I know the solid light stuff hasn't been priced yet, but is it tech that's nearly as expensive as the suit itself, or more economical than that?
Sibilus:
3.The below is meant to be answered entirely without you checking any of the wiki pages or anything. I specifically want your gut reaction, so that we can measure power creep. This is important--it's for an argument I was having a little while ago.
4.Remember the Sibilus? It's the hybrid rocket/gauss rifle that Pyro designed. Milno's gauntlet ate one, and he sometimes uses it. I want to VR-shoot a milnoplate armored person with one shot. What happens?
5....Then one overcharged shot. (3x gauss coils firing at once). What happens?
6....Then one super overcharged shot. (3x gauss coils overcharging at once). What happens?
7.Please don't hurt me. I'm just an addict.
@Radio
((Hey, can you and the council look at the Doctrine yet?))Hey, council people, you took over weapon statistics and pricing, right? I figured I could post the information on the Doctrine (shard weapon between testament and PSL), since it's not doing anything PW hasn't approved. It's just miniaturizing the PSL less.
If this is okay, then please vet it. If not, that's fine.Spoiler: Armory entry (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Mechanical explanation (click to show/hide)Spoiler: My intentions with this (click to show/hide)
Milno Plate could take a normal shot, probably even a overcharge one, but beyond that and it's gonna get destroyed. Whether or not it punches through or just destroys the plate depends on the end roll.
I know im on mission and all but... general questions can slip through that crack right?Maybe today. I'm gonna post the prices for them ASAP and then the wiki peeps and load them up.
when are the new items coming in?
can we change the shape and size of the dimensional door connected to our pocket dimensions, and if so can we do it more than once?
Hmmm. Not sure.
Are we tinkering again now? Even on mission? Cool. If it's okay for mission people to tinker then tinker the following.General Questions are ok. Actually making shit ain't.
Project name: Heavy Exoskeleton
-It is just an exoskeleton, upgraded to the same strength as a synthflesh body. Simple.
-Aim for 7-8 tokens
We need something to fill this strength tier since synthflesh is unavailable.
Project name: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton
-Take the heavy exoskeleton and add armour. That is all.
-For armour, a thinner version of assault suit armour.
-Aim for 10-12 tokens.
This is intended to fill a niche between assaultsuit and standard exoskeleton. Provide lots of protection but still lets the wearer move freely indoors, and doesn't require getting your head chopped off. Sort of like an updated and militarized version of Auron's mining exosuit.
Post by: renegadelobster on December 15, 2015, 01:43:22 pm
Post by: Nunzillor on December 15, 2015, 03:08:10 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 15, 2015, 03:37:08 pm
The poor man's version of the big fancy thing, in other words. Won't do clockwork, will do stairs or ladders.
Aiming for some modularity/programmability.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 15, 2015, 03:55:07 pm
spend a turn 3D modelling a sharpened phallic sword then summon it and chase down some xeno's with your glowing new murder boner.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 15, 2015, 04:10:27 pm
Also, does solid light do gravity and other things like Portal solid light doesn't?
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 15, 2015, 04:49:40 pm
Could I use Empathetic Gland + Charisma to try to communicate with an alien? Or at least intimidate or otherwise persuade it to do something? Again, assume it's about an alien that isn't too alien to be compatible.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on December 16, 2015, 01:41:08 am
Does Black Halo technology absolutely require human contact, or could it be preprogrammed into a grenade or bullet? For example "Sensory deprivation" grenade. "Everybody is now Altered" grenade? Or grenade whose effect can be mentally programmed just before it is thrown?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 16, 2015, 02:26:39 am
does this mean the objects cannot be magnetic or electrically conductive?
What properties can we alter? is it limited to size and shape?
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on December 16, 2015, 02:08:12 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think I ever got a reply on these. Could you look them over, PW?
Post by: Maegil on December 16, 2015, 03:35:04 pm
Spoiler: St. Bernard gurney bot (click to show/hide)
- by itself, it obviously can be used to cart stuff,
- the first optional configuration can also be used for stealth insertions or as a light APC,
- the second one, I don't know, maybe it could allow silent abductions or something, especially if used together with the first option.
Post by: syvarris on December 16, 2015, 04:36:54 pm
I think a better alternative to the pimp dagger would be to mix it with a Forcefield blade. Make a glass projector which projects an omnidirectional field, forming a disk. Implant three bits of pimp metal inside it, and voila! You've got an invisible flying combination weapon/shield/grenade which you control with your mind. It probably wouldn't even be terribly expensive, if you kept it small; It's only using a small FF, and very little pimp metal. I'd make it myself, if I weren't on mission.
@Maegli
Neat Idea, but I'm unsure how useful it would be. Gunnerbots are expensive, and this seems like a niche thing for BLOPS only. In normal missions, there's almost always someone around who can carry a corpse/jim'd teammate. Plus, nobody is going to pay any significant amount of tokens, just to make transport less excrutiating.
Stealth insertion is a really good idea, though. I could see that being mission equipment for blops.
((If you respond, please respond in Heph OOC.))
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 16, 2015, 10:44:56 pm
Post by: syvarris on December 17, 2015, 12:14:48 pm
2.What size is it, if applicable?
3.Where does it project light from?
4.What surface needs to have light shone on it for the generator to function?
5.Can we use artificially generated light, and does that light need to be externally visible?
6.What are the limitations on how much light can be created? Could you spend years creating a massive stockpile, or is there a limit to how much solid light can exist at once?
7.Are there other limitations, such as light needing to be near the generator?
8.Can sods operate solid light matter generators? IIRC, they could operate uncon equipment.
Post by: piecewise on December 17, 2015, 02:16:16 pm
A middle ground between the full-on brainwave Solid Light and the Containment Gun, with some basic shapes, a visualizer, and a UV rangefinder.As in there would be a set of presets that you could project?
The poor man's version of the big fancy thing, in other words. Won't do clockwork, will do stairs or ladders.
Aiming for some modularity/programmability.
Yeah, that seems ok.
No, no, no, no. The whole point is it's supposed to be dial, point, shoot.Do...gravity? As in are the projections affected by gravity? Yes they are.
Also, does solid light do gravity and other things like Portal solid light doesn't?
Could I use Empathetic Gland + Charisma to figure out why an alien is doing something? Or would that require another roll like Brain or Intuition or Gen. Knowledge? Assume it's about an alien that isn't too eldritchFirst one, probably maybe.
Could I use Empathetic Gland + Charisma to try to communicate with an alien? Or at least intimidate or otherwise persuade it to do something? Again, assume it's about an alien that isn't too alien to be compatible.
Second one...maybe but to a lesser degree. Communication requires a lot more than knowing how someone feels.
Is effect of Attractive Bauble transmitted via vision? Can its effect be nullified with Mad Hatter distortion?It is done by vision, but I dunno about mad matter. No one has tried it yet.
Does Black Halo technology absolutely require human contact, or could it be preprogrammed into a grenade or bullet? For example "Sensory deprivation" grenade. "Everybody is now Altered" grenade? Or grenade whose effect can be mentally programmed just before it is thrown?
Dunno, maybe. But it would be a pretty expensive thing to just huck around.
Solid light objects cannot replicate chemical or electrical systems.It cannot be magnetic or electrically conductive.
does this mean the objects cannot be magnetic or electrically conductive?
What properties can we alter? is it limited to size and shape?
It's size and shape, yeah.
1. So what is the purpose of this? Just having some of that stuff in the handle to use?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think I ever got a reply on these. Could you look them over, PW?
2. Well...hm. Well there are a few problems here. The biggest being that in order to control things in a reasonably efficient way, you'd need a pretty good amount of this stuff in you. Second, deposition of calcium into bones isn't instant...or even quick. And injecting it is gonna cause hypercalcemia and potentially cause them to spasm like crazy. Or die.
3. This could work.
4.This could also work.
Q-carbon anything. Yes, no, or confusion.Confusion.
1.What shape is the solid light matter generator? Is it a box, an implant, a wand, what?Boxy.
2.What size is it, if applicable?
3.Where does it project light from?
4.What surface needs to have light shone on it for the generator to function?
5.Can we use artificially generated light, and does that light need to be externally visible?
6.What are the limitations on how much light can be created? Could you spend years creating a massive stockpile, or is there a limit to how much solid light can exist at once?
7.Are there other limitations, such as light needing to be near the generator?
8.Can sods operate solid light matter generators? IIRC, they could operate uncon equipment.
Normal one? About shoe box, maybe a bit bigger.
Oh it doesn't need like to be on the box itself, it just needs light in the area it's generating the matter in. It turns light into solid matter. No light, no matter.
As long as the light is in the right wavelength, it's fine.
It's limited by distance from the generator, ie by volume created. You can only make so much before there's no more space to fill.
None that immediately spring to mind.
Hmm...Theoretically yes, but it still requires mind to form things correctly.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 17, 2015, 03:01:15 pm
How much for that? Similar to the instant containment gun?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on December 17, 2015, 03:19:42 pm
1. So what is the purpose of this? Just having some of that stuff in the handle to use?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think I ever got a reply on these. Could you look them over, PW?
I believe his point is enabling Jedi sword fighting techniques. Throw the razor and pull it back through necks because opponent thinks it's no danger anymore.
Does Black Halo technology absolutely require human contact, or could it be preprogrammed into a grenade or bullet? For example "Sensory deprivation" grenade. "Everybody is now Altered" grenade? Or grenade whose effect can be mentally programmed just before it is thrown?Dunno, maybe. But it would be a pretty expensive thing to just huck around.
But with limited range and duration it could be reusable, right? Lob temporary hallucination grenade at enemies and shoot them while they are distracted and panicking and retrieve it once safe. Or use it perhaps as a stationary distraction: Break a door, set up a Black Halo grenade to make the door look and feel intact. Make your duplicate appear in bed, or duplicates of guards you killed standing in guard. Applications are limitless if you are brave enough.
Post by: renegadelobster on December 17, 2015, 03:50:50 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 17, 2015, 05:01:33 pm
Could you explain a bit how the 5sec reset works? Like, one activates it, then what exactly happens to any particular molecule inside the affected radius, frame by frame?
Post by: syvarris on December 17, 2015, 06:12:33 pm
2.A white mask can possess anyone/thing which touches it, right? Even if they just pick it up?
3.Can a white mask be put inside a braincase, and possess it, essentially acting as a roboperson?
4.How tough is a white mask? Would it break from being dropped?
5.Could a white mask be protected by coating it in mythril/some other metal, leaving only a small contact patch for possession?
6.Can you use a 5-second reset to clone ammo for the 5-second reset?
7.Can you use a 5-second reset to clone armory equipment/nyartifacts, which you can then sell to other players?
8.Can a 5-second reset be set to automatically activate after severe trauma?
9.How long is "a short period" when using the 5-second reset often? Is it directly prortional to how much of a munchkin the user is?
Post by: Corsair on December 17, 2015, 09:50:11 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 17, 2015, 10:09:17 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 17, 2015, 10:10:57 pm
How heavy are the objects created by the light gun?Follow up to that, would dropping hard light on something squish it?
Post by: Corsair on December 18, 2015, 06:31:59 am
If hardlight can do this I patent the anvil gun.How heavy are the objects created by the light gun?Follow up to that, would dropping hard light on something squish it?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 18, 2015, 06:54:54 am
>:(If hardlight can do this I patent the anvil gun.How heavy are the objects created by the light gun?Follow up to that, would dropping hard light on something squish it?
I patented the idea of the gun that does preset constructs already. You no can has.
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 18, 2015, 08:09:28 am
1. Imagine putting one of those self-growing organic computers we got from the Anomalous Planetoid in a battlesuit and connecting it both to the user's brain and the battlesuit itself and having it try to emulate them.
The goal is that if the pilot is incapacitated or killed, the AI in the battlesuit will take over and continue fighting, not as intelligently as the player but probably just as capable if not more. Kinda like some vehicles in Warhammer 40k that can be temporarily controlled by their machine spirit.
The AI is deactivated after some time so that it doesn't run rampant, but it could be retrieved and transported back to Hephaestus to be put in a fighting robot and get sent to the front lines to fight off-screen.
Essentially kinda like an Avatar-like upgrade for battlesuits and other exoskeletons that makes killing the pilot no longer be a foolproof strategy: "You kill me or render me unconscious, you now have a killing machine controlled by a semi-alien intelligence to deal with".
2. If I remember correctly, the problem with Stevebots is that they are so advanced and made they need an advanced AI to be controlled properly (plus the fact that creating the parts that make up a Stevebot requires very specialized machinery with very little margin for error). So get a Stevebot with no weapons (just the hyper advanced body) and put one of the above mentioned organic computers to control it. Maybe give it some speakers/multi-colour led lights/movable head parts to make it more expressive.
Once the guys on Hephaestus have gotten it to learn to use its body (walk, etc) and to understand what energy sources it needs to survive, it gets sent to the Sword and sent to accompany people on missions to gain experience and be taught things, sort of like training a dog or a baby. Someone should probably be assigned as being responsible for it, to make training easier. It should probably not have the ability to survive very long without "food", both so that it can be rewarded with it (or even be rewarded with better versions of "food") and so that if it escapes or otherwise turns against us it is harder for it to survive for long.
The end goal is that once it has completed say 10 missions, we will have a Stevebot intelligent/capable enough to be used as a template to create other Stevebots that don't actually have to be controlled by Steve or another powerful AI. They can then be taught different skills and be sent out to be warriors or assassins or bodyguards or whatever, kinda like lesser versions of the Arbiters of Peace. A bit more unstable though, since they are self-evolving AIs, but still powerful. And this universe is kinda fucked anyway, so I don't think potentially unleashing the Replicators is such a bad thing right now. They are also organic, so it's unlikely that a single individual can live forever.
Post by: NAV on December 18, 2015, 11:53:51 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 18, 2015, 12:54:39 pm
Bad Paris! No tinkering on mission, especially not walls of text like that.I'm not tinkering. I'm merely asking about piecewise's opinion on certain vague concepts. Piecewise doesn't need to think about how exactly it would work, because I'm not asking about concrete stuff and how they work or how they are combined. He merely has to give a yes/no/maybe/that sounds good/that sounds terrible/wat response on the concept itself, that is, if he feels that would be a thing that would be fun/doable in game. I did the same thing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136149.msg6338619#msg6338619) with Xan's limboskeleton design, that's why I assumed it was OK. Tinkering would involve me asking a hundred questions about how to build something and how many tokens it would cost and combining extra magnets and enlarging weapons and armour penetration and things like that. I assumed the fact that I started with
Quote
I'd like to inquire on the possibility of the following:would make that clear, but I guess I'll edit that to make it extra clear.
EDIT: Anyway, if piecewise does not like it he can say so and I'll stop immediately.
Post by: Maegil on December 18, 2015, 01:04:00 pm
- What precisely is the difference between this and the Hephaestus threads?
- Is the gurney only being considered on the Hephaestus thread, or on both?
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 18, 2015, 01:14:57 pm
The Tinker thread (this thread) is supposed to be for tinker actions.
Sometimes tinker discussion will take place in the Tinker thread.
Tinker actions will never be processed in the Hephaestus OOC thread.
I think the normal Hephaestus thread is no longer working, only the Hephaestus OOC one is.
Post by: syvarris on December 18, 2015, 04:32:23 pm
Spoiler: @Maegli (click to show/hide)
Post by: Maegil on December 18, 2015, 05:00:03 pm
St. Bernard gurney bot
Exploding a Gunner Bot (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Gunner_Bot), select the legs and actuators, the control unit, and one AV device from its sensors suite.
Break a scoop stretcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoop_stretcher) in four parts, and reconnect them with electric telescopic fittings long enough to stretch around an armored human.
Fit spring self-winding safety belts for patient immobilization.
Fix the legs around the gurney, and the AV and control unit at its head.
Optional gear: a light-bending spray painted protective shell of Milno-plate around the head and sharkplate elsewhere.
Optional gear: articulated arm, one canister of each: medifoam, painkillers, coagulant boosters and anti-shock meds to remotely work on the patient.
And yes, although not designed for it, I imagine that there are other uses:
- by itself, it obviously can be used to cart stuff,
- the first optional configuration can also be used for stealth insertions or as a light APC,
- the second one, I don't know, maybe it could allow silent abductions or something, especially if used together with the first option.
Post by: NAV on December 20, 2015, 12:28:38 pm
Similar deal with the multi-function gauntlet. Can we remove the kinamp and lower the price a token or two?
Post by: Moopli on December 21, 2015, 02:43:52 pm
Post by: piecewise on December 21, 2015, 06:11:16 pm
Yes, a set of preset shapes.Oh, about 2 or 3 more than the containment gun.
How much for that? Similar to the instant containment gun?
Huh, well ok.1. So what is the purpose of this? Just having some of that stuff in the handle to use?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think I ever got a reply on these. Could you look them over, PW?
I believe his point is enabling Jedi sword fighting techniques. Throw the razor and pull it back through necks because opponent thinks it's no danger anymore.Does Black Halo technology absolutely require human contact, or could it be preprogrammed into a grenade or bullet? For example "Sensory deprivation" grenade. "Everybody is now Altered" grenade? Or grenade whose effect can be mentally programmed just before it is thrown?Dunno, maybe. But it would be a pretty expensive thing to just huck around.
But with limited range and duration it could be reusable, right? Lob temporary hallucination grenade at enemies and shoot them while they are distracted and panicking and retrieve it once safe. Or use it perhaps as a stationary distraction: Break a door, set up a Black Halo grenade to make the door look and feel intact. Make your duplicate appear in bed, or duplicates of guards you killed standing in guard. Applications are limitless if you are brave enough.
Yes, all that is theoretically true. The problem is that the thing would have to be preprogrammed with the the hallucination it causes and it wouldn't be dynamic, at least not without connection to your brain too.
I trust your judgment on the "Shredder" suit PW. I'm on mission and really don't want to incur anythings wrath by tinkering.It's not a bad idea in theory, but focusing on a melee suit and letting the users wield their own weapons might be better.
Can one use the pocket dimension like a portal gun?Hmm. Sorta? It can only be open in any one place at any one time, but you could open it at point a, put something in, then open it at point b and take it out.
Could you explain a bit how the 5sec reset works? Like, one activates it, then what exactly happens to any particular molecule inside the affected radius, frame by frame?
How it works? Functionally, you have a device on your arm, about the size of an over sized bracelet or manacle. And it has a button. When you press it, it causes the reverting process. When this process is activated, all the molecules and matter that was within the device's active memory field is plucked out of wherever it currently is and brought back to where it used to be. It does that...well not instantly but quickly enough that solid matter between any of those molecules and their destination isn't affected.
1.Does being in a white mask render you immune to drugs, or can you get high if you possess a body that's high?Hmm thats kind of a difficult question. Your mind won't get high, but your body will. Now, the mask allows the mind to "see" without eyes, so hallucinogens won't do anything, but intoxicants might. If you drink a bunch of booze, for instance, your mind won't be effected, but your body might have reduced reflexes and balance due to the effects. Likewise, stimulants would allow the body to act more effectively even though the mind feels no effect from them.
2.A white mask can possess anyone/thing which touches it, right? Even if they just pick it up?
3.Can a white mask be put inside a braincase, and possess it, essentially acting as a roboperson?
4.How tough is a white mask? Would it break from being dropped?
5.Could a white mask be protected by coating it in mythril/some other metal, leaving only a small contact patch for possession?
6.Can you use a 5-second reset to clone ammo for the 5-second reset?
7.Can you use a 5-second reset to clone armory equipment/nyartifacts, which you can then sell to other players?
8.Can a 5-second reset be set to automatically activate after severe trauma?
9.How long is "a short period" when using the 5-second reset often? Is it directly prortional to how much of a munchkin the user is?
Yes. But you can choose to try to do it or not. You're not gonna be mindfucking everyone who touches you. Unless you want to.
Yes. It can even make the briefcase open and close like a puppet mouth.
Depends. Drop it from a few feet onto tile or brick and it will probably survive. Drop it from 6 feet and you're at 50/50 odds. It's like a strong ceramic.
As long as it can touch, it can possess, so yes
No. The 5 second reset, as it says in the armory, moves things back to previous positions. no new matter is created.
No.
The standard one doesn't have that option, but you could wire it up to trauma sensing systems on your suit and rig up a simple electrical switch to trigger the thing for you if you are too injured. Deadman switch sort of thing.
It doesn't have a hard number right now, but if you abuse it, I abuse you.
How heavy are the objects created by the light gun?Depends on their size? Assume a weight about that of metallic aluminum.
Does the white mask itself have any sensory organs? EG can you still see when you're not stuck to a body?The best way I can explain it is to say it puts you in third person mode.
Again, depends on the size doesn't it? If I drop a steel coin on you, do you die? What about a steel beam? Slightly different effect perhaps?How heavy are the objects created by the light gun?Follow up to that, would dropping hard light on something squish it?
I'd like to ask for your opinion on the following two concepts. Do they sound doable and/or like something that would be fun in game?You're on mission, aren't you...
1. Imagine putting one of those self-growing organic computers we got from the Anomalous Planetoid in a battlesuit and connecting it both to the user's brain and the battlesuit itself and having it try to emulate them.
The goal is that if the pilot is incapacitated or killed, the AI in the battlesuit will take over and continue fighting, not as intelligently as the player but probably just as capable if not more. Kinda like some vehicles in Warhammer 40k that can be temporarily controlled by their machine spirit.
The AI is deactivated after some time so that it doesn't run rampant, but it could be retrieved and transported back to Hephaestus to be put in a fighting robot and get sent to the front lines to fight off-screen.
Essentially kinda like an Avatar-like upgrade for battlesuits and other exoskeletons that makes killing the pilot no longer be a foolproof strategy: "You kill me or render me unconscious, you now have a killing machine controlled by a semi-alien intelligence to deal with".
2. If I remember correctly, the problem with Stevebots is that they are so advanced and made they need an advanced AI to be controlled properly (plus the fact that creating the parts that make up a Stevebot requires very specialized machinery with very little margin for error). So get a Stevebot with no weapons (just the hyper advanced body) and put one of the above mentioned organic computers to control it. Maybe give it some speakers/multi-colour led lights/movable head parts to make it more expressive.
Once the guys on Hephaestus have gotten it to learn to use its body (walk, etc) and to understand what energy sources it needs to survive, it gets sent to the Sword and sent to accompany people on missions to gain experience and be taught things, sort of like training a dog or a baby. Someone should probably be assigned as being responsible for it, to make training easier. It should probably not have the ability to survive very long without "food", both so that it can be rewarded with it (or even be rewarded with better versions of "food") and so that if it escapes or otherwise turns against us it is harder for it to survive for long.
The end goal is that once it has completed say 10 missions, we will have a Stevebot intelligent/capable enough to be used as a template to create other Stevebots that don't actually have to be controlled by Steve or another powerful AI. They can then be taught different skills and be sent out to be warriors or assassins or bodyguards or whatever, kinda like lesser versions of the Arbiters of Peace. A bit more unstable though, since they are self-evolving AIs, but still powerful. And this universe is kinda fucked anyway, so I don't think potentially unleashing the Replicators is such a bad thing right now. They are also organic, so it's unlikely that a single individual can live forever.
Sure. Just make sure not to give it to someone mentally unstable.
Hmm. Theory of training a brain is sound but I'm not sure about that method.
Sorry, noob questions:Heph thread is a failure and we all feel bad. Tinker is here to continue to hurt me.
- What precisely is the difference between this and the Hephaestus threads?
- Is the gurney only being considered on the Hephaestus thread, or on both?
I assume here? I'm not sure what the gurney is you're talking about. But yeah, post your tinkering here, always.
((Thank you for the replies. I'm reposting it then, this time bolded.))This will all work, though gunner bots are fairly expensive, even stripped down. Wetware computer and all.
St. Bernard gurney bot
Exploding a Gunner Bot (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Gunner_Bot), select the legs and actuators, the control unit, and one AV device from its sensors suite.
Break a scoop stretcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoop_stretcher) in four parts, and reconnect them with electric telescopic fittings long enough to stretch around an armored human.
Fit spring self-winding safety belts for patient immobilization.
Fix the legs around the gurney, and the AV and control unit at its head.
Optional gear: a light-bending spray painted protective shell of Milno-plate around the head and sharkplate elsewhere.
Optional gear: articulated arm, one canister of each: medifoam, painkillers, coagulant boosters and anti-shock meds to remotely work on the patient.
And yes, although not designed for it, I imagine that there are other uses:
- by itself, it obviously can be used to cart stuff,
- the first optional configuration can also be used for stealth insertions or as a light APC,
- the second one, I don't know, maybe it could allow silent abductions or something, especially if used together with the first option.
What should we do with the kinamps in a battlesuit's knuckles? Cause origin tech. Either remove them, or assume anyone who can afford a battlesuit is competent enough to handle some kinamps.I'd say remove and replace with something else.
Similar deal with the multi-function gauntlet. Can we remove the kinamp and lower the price a token or two?
Maybe pimpcane metal knuckles?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 21, 2015, 06:13:24 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 21, 2015, 06:25:00 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 21, 2015, 07:30:59 pm
So a Five Second Reset could bring a character back from permadeath if it's activated soon enough?unless the reset is also destroyed, yes.
its kinda the point of the thing.
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 22, 2015, 02:29:17 am
Quote
It's an addition to the shock implants that allows steve to send impulses through the spinal cord. The reason why no one remembers it is that he renders you unconscious so you don't create conflicting signals.Does Steve want to keep green storm a secret, or are people allowed to know?
In case we tell people, how would you like to handle using it? Only when a mission commander orders it, only when a person him/herself activates/requests it, or both (aka either on personal request or override as an order)?
Is a person capable of resisting it's influence through conscious action (eg opposing will roll)?
So, one cannot open 2 portals between realspace and the pocket dimension at the same time, even with 2 separate controllers? But you can choose where in realspace the portals opens if you create one in the pockets dimension? Meaning you could use it as a portal gun, but with a delay?
What frame of reference does the 5 sec reset use? Galactic coordinates, itself, the nearest mass of gravity, or what?
Post by: NAV on December 22, 2015, 02:30:48 am
Post by: Nunzillor on December 22, 2015, 03:32:35 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on December 22, 2015, 04:41:41 am
What kind of control interface does it have for manipulating its laws or contents?
Post by: piecewise on December 23, 2015, 01:20:57 pm
What if you buy the containment gun and reprogram the thing yourself?Then it would cost as much as the gun, but the gun is only made to project one object at a time, and only where it is pointed.
So a Five Second Reset could bring a character back from permadeath if it's activated soon enough?Yes. Brain blown the hell up can still be brought back together if activated quickly enough.
Steve doesn't care.QuoteIt's an addition to the shock implants that allows steve to send impulses through the spinal cord. The reason why no one remembers it is that he renders you unconscious so you don't create conflicting signals.Does Steve want to keep green storm a secret, or are people allowed to know?
In case we tell people, how would you like to handle using it? Only when a mission commander orders it, only when a person him/herself activates/requests it, or both (aka either on personal request or override as an order)?
Is a person capable of resisting it's influence through conscious action (eg opposing will roll)?
So, one cannot open 2 portals between realspace and the pocket dimension at the same time, even with 2 separate controllers? But you can choose where in realspace the portals opens if you create one in the pockets dimension? Meaning you could use it as a portal gun, but with a delay?
What frame of reference does the 5 sec reset use? Galactic coordinates, itself, the nearest mass of gravity, or what?
Either works, however I'd say that the individual option should have to be ok'd by the mission commander. Lest it be misused.
Well, they could try. It probably wouldn't work.
With two controllers you could. I assumed with just one. Though its a bit dangerous, you might get some telefragging if you're not careful.
Itself, it is recording around itself.
How would the pimpcane knuckles work, and what skill would they use?It would just be a metal knuckle plate made of pimpcane metal so it could be turned into spikes or blades or whatever you want. It would use exo, same as normal. Unless we automated it to take on a dozen or so shapes when activated and cycled through, We could do that.
*is intrigued* How would one use them, exactly? And could they be purchased without the battlesuit?I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please quote whatever I'm talking about because I've got a big ass series of posts before this one and you could be referencing lots of things.
What do we know about what we can control with the pocket dimensions?
What kind of control interface does it have for manipulating its laws or contents?
Well, aesthetics are mostly up for grabs, physical laws for the most part, though they have limits. No dialing the gravity up to infinity and then opening black holes whenever you want. It's done via a mostly numerical interface.
Post by: tryrar on December 23, 2015, 01:34:38 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 23, 2015, 01:57:27 pm
Could you elaborate about the telefragging when using 2 pocket dimension controllers?
Finally, remember that gunship idea I designed some time back? I proposed we use a system where people buy the right to use certain strikes, like buying ammo for a gun, but people weren't enthusiastic about that. Popular sentiment was that they'd prefer if it was deployed on a mission for free when requested, together with strikes being for free. What I'm afraid for though, is that that might lead to people 'abusing' it and just shooting everything everywhere with this. A possible middle road is that deployment is free, and strikes are to be payed at the end of the mission, with the idea that if it was used correctly, the team fund can take (some of) the cost, but if it was abused or used to cause rampant collateral, they have to pay more out of their paycheck.
What do you think?
Post by: NAV on December 24, 2015, 03:40:33 am
The preprogrammed pimpknuckles, can they turn into moving things like drills or sawblades or oscillating spikes or jaws of life, or would it be limited to static shapes? And preprogrammed would use uncon, right?
Pimpcane can be moved with your mind. Can pimpknuckles? Can pimpknuckles be preprogrammed to, for example increase the strength of your punches or help with lifting/pushing things?
Can pimpknuckles be added as a standalone armoury item, same price as kinamp?
Post by: Maegil on December 24, 2015, 07:04:30 am
So, what is the procedure now (argh, noobs... ;) )? The Heph OOC guys also showed some interest in it for BLOPS, so could you be more specific, please?This will all work, though gunner bots are fairly expensive, even stripped down. Wetware computer and all.
St. Bernard gurney bot
Post by: piecewise on December 28, 2015, 02:13:09 pm
Can Pocket dimensions have more than one exit? I.E. on a longer mission can we use them as a way to resupply from the Sword by connecting it to the pocket dimension at one end and our current location at the other, and simply travel through the dimension?....
I see problems.
I see PROBLEMS
Hmm. In that case, I think Miya will be making green storm public after this mission (assuming we survive of course, hah). With the stipulation that, like the classic shock collar, people cannot have it removed just like that (though leaving open the option if a person has special permission, like with Maurice). Activation happens when a mission commander requests it, or if the individual requests it (and gets approval from commander if needed). And there is still a high chance of damage or death from using it to prevent overuse. That all ok?
Could you elaborate about the telefragging when using 2 pocket dimension controllers?
Finally, remember that gunship idea I designed some time back? I proposed we use a system where people buy the right to use certain strikes, like buying ammo for a gun, but people weren't enthusiastic about that. Popular sentiment was that they'd prefer if it was deployed on a mission for free when requested, together with strikes being for free. What I'm afraid for though, is that that might lead to people 'abusing' it and just shooting everything everywhere with this. A possible middle road is that deployment is free, and strikes are to be payed at the end of the mission, with the idea that if it was used correctly, the team fund can take (some of) the cost, but if it was abused or used to cause rampant collateral, they have to pay more out of their paycheck.
What do you think?
Sounds alright.
Well, with two it would be possible of opening a door to the same physical place in two locations. If you opened one portal and then put something in and opened another so that the first object physically intersected itself, it would telefrag.
uh. I dunno. I kinda wanna limit power creep so I can murder you guys more. Otherwise we're gonna have to logan's run this and just exterminate people who get too strong.
Would it be possible to have pimpknuckles switch between standard and preprogrammed modes, or is it locked to one or the other on creation?Locked
The preprogrammed pimpknuckles, can they turn into moving things like drills or sawblades or oscillating spikes or jaws of life, or would it be limited to static shapes? And preprogrammed would use uncon, right?
Pimpcane can be moved with your mind. Can pimpknuckles? Can pimpknuckles be preprogrammed to, for example increase the strength of your punches or help with lifting/pushing things?
Can pimpknuckles be added as a standalone armoury item, same price as kinamp?
They can move, and they'd actually probably just use pure stats since punching someone with a sharp knuckle thing isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Preprogrammed? no. Done via exo rolls? Yes.
Yes
Well, if you're ok with paying 12 tokens for it, then consider it done.So, what is the procedure now (argh, noobs... ;) )? The Heph OOC guys also showed some interest in it for BLOPS, so could you be more specific, please?This will all work, though gunner bots are fairly expensive, even stripped down. Wetware computer and all.
St. Bernard gurney bot
Post by: NAV on December 28, 2015, 02:51:00 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 28, 2015, 03:50:01 pm
So, you wanna veto the gunship shuttle in its entirety? Or only allow it on a select few missions? Or would it be ok if there was an exact cost involved again, like it was originally proposed like? Something else perhaps, some totally other way of doing this?
Say I was standing on a bridge on a normal earth like world above a deep abyss. I shoot with the gauss rifle down into the pit, and hit the 5sec reset after 4 seconds. What happens? The bullet returns to my gun, right? Or do I teleport to where the bullet is?
If now someone pushes me off the bridge and I fall, and I press the reset again after 4 seconds. What happens? Do I get moved back onto the bridge, or does the piece of bridge I was standing on get ripped off and moved so it's under my still rapidly falling feet?
((I'll warn in advance, I think things might get difficult as the 5sec reset is explored. If at any point you wanna say "it doesn't make sense/I don't bloody know, it just works like I need it to in that situation, shut up" then feel free to. I'm not trying to maneuver you inti a corner, even if it might look like it.))
Post by: Egan_BW on December 28, 2015, 03:57:25 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 28, 2015, 08:08:08 pm
Also, for power creep, you could offer players the option to retire their old characters and start a sort-of new game+, with some extra levels and tokens. That's how I do it on my RTD.
You could make the old characters NPCs. Take them out of the game and have them do things in the background with the possibility of appearing in a future mission or some epic final battle. Kinda like the guy from the Ice-9 mission who was actually an HMRC member on a mission.
Oh, speaking of things happening in the background: Remember how you talked about one of the other HMRC ships infiltrating an asteroid-sized UWM ship? What's going on with the other HMRC teams like that one? Or should I ask these questions when I'm back on ship or in the ER talk page?
Post by: Maegil on December 29, 2015, 04:48:53 am
For the whole thing, with both bells and whistles? Definitively. As soon as I have 12 tokens, that is...Well, if you're ok with paying 12 tokens for it, then consider it done.So, what is the procedure now (argh, noobs... ;) )? The Heph OOC guys also showed some interest in it for BLOPS, so could you be more specific, please?This will all work, though gunner bots are fairly expensive, even stripped down. Wetware computer and all.
St. Bernard gurney bot
Lessons learned: tinkering is worth it, but expensive...
Post by: piecewise on December 30, 2015, 11:41:15 am
((Oh c'mon pw, using the pocket dimension to travel to the sword was exactly one of the things I warned for in that council pm. It's like you don't even read them (then again, there were a lot of possible exploits in there, so I can see why any particular one would get lost in the sea of hypothetical munchkinnery :P ).))(I think just straight up forgot. Sorry.)
So, you wanna veto the gunship shuttle in its entirety? Or only allow it on a select few missions? Or would it be ok if there was an exact cost involved again, like it was originally proposed like? Something else perhaps, some totally other way of doing this?
Say I was standing on a bridge on a normal earth like world above a deep abyss. I shoot with the gauss rifle down into the pit, and hit the 5sec reset after 4 seconds. What happens? The bullet returns to my gun, right? Or do I teleport to where the bullet is?
If now someone pushes me off the bridge and I fall, and I press the reset again after 4 seconds. What happens? Do I get moved back onto the bridge, or does the piece of bridge I was standing on get ripped off and moved so it's under my still rapidly falling feet?
((I'll warn in advance, I think things might get difficult as the 5sec reset is explored. If at any point you wanna say "it doesn't make sense/I don't bloody know, it just works like I need it to in that situation, shut up" then feel free to. I'm not trying to maneuver you inti a corner, even if it might look like it.))
Hmm The thing is, I'm not sure if we're gonna be getting many or any more missions in which we have a nice normal space to shoot from. We're gonna be diving through alternate dimensions and otherwise sticking our dicks in places they don't belong. I dunno if it will be worth while anymore.
The bullet returns to the gun, you stay where you are. The location that matters is where the reset is at that time.
Likewise, you end up back on the bridge, because thats where the reset thing was 5 seconds ago.
Is there any way we could weaponize our Newton enraging magic?We could wrap wire around his corpse and turn him into an electromagnet to power our weapons.
Since he's spinning in his grave.
Say that the pocket dimension doesn't work on the Sword because you have a jammer active that prevents its activation close to the ship to prevent people from accidentally damaging the ship. Or say that creating pocket dimension generators is hard/dangerous/expensive/impossible so you only have one on the sword and portals can't be created too close to the generator. Or that it doesn't work because of all the other space magic things we have there.Jammer seems reasonable.
Also, for power creep, you could offer players the option to retire their old characters and start a sort-of new game+, with some extra levels and tokens. That's how I do it on my RTD.
You could make the old characters NPCs. Take them out of the game and have them do things in the background with the possibility of appearing in a future mission or some epic final battle. Kinda like the guy from the Ice-9 mission who was actually an HMRC member on a mission.
Oh, speaking of things happening in the background: Remember how you talked about one of the other HMRC ships infiltrating an asteroid-sized UWM ship? What's going on with the other HMRC teams like that one? Or should I ask these questions when I'm back on ship or in the ER talk page?
Hmm. A NG+ where you reset to new stats but keep your items and tokens would be ok.
Well those asteroid sized ships require manips to move so...
Yep, that tends to be the general opinion.For the whole thing, with both bells and whistles? Definitively. As soon as I have 12 tokens, that is...Well, if you're ok with paying 12 tokens for it, then consider it done.So, what is the procedure now (argh, noobs... ;) )? The Heph OOC guys also showed some interest in it for BLOPS, so could you be more specific, please?This will all work, though gunner bots are fairly expensive, even stripped down. Wetware computer and all.
St. Bernard gurney bot
Lessons learned: tinkering is worth it, but expensive...
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 30, 2015, 11:54:47 am
Quote
The bullet returns to the gun, you stay where you are. The location that matters is where the reset is at that time.
Likewise, you end up back on the bridge, because thats where the reset thing was 5 seconds ago.
But before you said the 5sec reset uses itself as frame of reference. But from that frame, a bullet speeding away or a piece of bridge suddenly falling sideways and upward (as seen from the reset's point of view) is equivalent, no? How does it know to bring back the bullet in the first case, but the person (and not the piece of metal in the bridge) in the second?
A different example: say you are floating in zero gravity. How does the resett see the difference between 'a bullet moving away' and 'you moving backward while a bullet comes out of the gun and stays stationary'? After all, both 'bullet moves, you stay still' and 'you move, bullet stays still' are equivalent frames of reference on their own. So if the 5sec reset uses itself as reference frame, how does it differentiate between 'bullet moves' and 'person moves' if it doesn't use some sort of outside frame of reference?
To put it in another way: the earth spins around the sun at about 30 kilometers per second. So if the reset takes you back to 'where you were', shouldn't it teleport you 5*30=150 kilometers away, to the exact location your body was in terms of some 'galactic coordinates'?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on December 30, 2015, 12:05:39 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 30, 2015, 12:10:51 pm
But it does kinda matter, because it determines what to expect from using the device in different situations. If the rules aren't consistent, no problem, but it at least means we'd know to ask pw for what he thinks would happens if used, since figuring it out yourself wouldn't be a reliable way to make correct predictions. And if you happen to come to the wrong conclusion (wrong, in that it isn't what pw thinks, not that it isn't consistent with the rules) at a bad time, it could have serious consequences.
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 30, 2015, 03:01:48 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on December 31, 2015, 06:48:19 am
... I mean, at least how I hear PW talk about it. Ot's not so much where the reset is, it's more about the world around the reset.
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 31, 2015, 07:06:10 am
Whenever someone asks how with clearly alien and exotic artifacts, I instantly want to yell "Magic!" in the most hilarious tone of voice I can. Maybe break out into song.I't not really about 'how' it works, and more what one can expect to happen in-game when you push that button.
Sounds like the reset is the frame of reference. So if you and the bullet were to move opposite each other for five seconds, you you both be returned.
... I mean, at least how I hear PW talk about it. Ot's not so much where the reset is, it's more about the world around the reset.
Yes it is, pw has said so, but then how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?
Post by: Maegil on December 31, 2015, 08:03:15 am
how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?You have to use external reference points. Lacking those, the problem is meaningless; the very concept of immobility is a fallacy of the ground-bound mind.
Post by: Parisbre56 on December 31, 2015, 08:34:37 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 31, 2015, 09:11:28 am
how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?You have to use external reference points. Lacking those, the problem is meaningless; the very concept of immobility is a fallacy of the ground-bound mind.
That's the thing, pw says the machine only uses its own internal reference frame. And if it indeed uses some external ones, I'm trying to figure out which ones (assuming the while thing is internally consistent, which it doesn't have to be, but in which case that'd be good to know). Some sort of galactic coordinates? Does it stay in relation to the nearest gravity well?
The 5-second-reset actually has a tiny skeleton inside that decides how thongs should be reset.Deus ex lingerie?
Post by: Pancaek on December 31, 2015, 09:31:17 am
Yes it is, pw has said so, but then how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?Kinda like missiles I guess, kinda like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Dvc1NrZJI)
Post by: Radio Controlled on December 31, 2015, 10:53:09 am
Yes it is, pw has said so, but then how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?Kinda like missiles I guess, kinda like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Dvc1NrZJI)
Hah, that was unreasonably hilarious.
For the record, the very first two results already give some interesting potential results, in case people are wondering why I'm bothering with all this. For example, we know that if we fall down the pit, and hit reset, we go back up. Now imagine that instead of falling, you were standing inside a shuttle that flew down the pit so that your body has about the same trajectory as it had during the falling of the first scenario. It follows that, if you hit reset inside the shuttle, you will be teleported outside the shuttle up to that bridge (assuming the shuttle isn't so small it is teleported along with you, which is probably since the reset area isn't that large). Ergo, using the reset in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside the shuttle (and presumably to you splatting against the ground some time later). Thus, you can't safely use the reset while inside any moving vehicle.
Post by: NAV on December 31, 2015, 06:32:35 pm
Spoiler: pimpknuckles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Preprogrammed Pimpknuckles (click to show/hide)
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 31, 2015, 08:28:00 pm
Or on a moving planet? I mean...There kind of is this thing where planets move...Yes it is, pw has said so, but then how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?Kinda like missiles I guess, kinda like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Dvc1NrZJI)
Hah, that was unreasonably hilarious.
For the record, the very first two results already give some interesting potential results, in case people are wondering why I'm bothering with all this. For example, we know that if we fall down the pit, and hit reset, we go back up. Now imagine that instead of falling, you were standing inside a shuttle that flew down the pit so that your body has about the same trajectory as it had during the falling of the first scenario. It follows that, if you hit reset inside the shuttle, you will be teleported outside the shuttle up to that bridge (assuming the shuttle isn't so small it is teleported along with you, which is probably since the reset area isn't that large). Ergo, using the reset in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside the shuttle (and presumably to you splatting against the ground some time later). Thus, you can't safely use the reset while inside any moving vehicle.
Anywho, do the wristpads and such already have things like games on?
Post by: Empiricist on January 01, 2016, 12:18:45 am
((Since Heph is dead, I'll post here.)) Charles asks for what he's meant to be doing now that the UWM has effectively collapsed. Figure out a way to recruit its remnants? Consolidate loyalty?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 01, 2016, 03:13:09 am
Figure out a way to recruit its remnants?+1 Let the new empire rise from ashes of old one, which is essentially same guys, just with different name.
Post by: piecewise on January 01, 2016, 11:09:47 am
Ah, I see. So can we keep the gunship option as a 'maybe' then, should the situation ever come up?YeahQuoteThe bullet returns to the gun, you stay where you are. The location that matters is where the reset is at that time.
Likewise, you end up back on the bridge, because thats where the reset thing was 5 seconds ago.
But before you said the 5sec reset uses itself as frame of reference. But from that frame, a bullet speeding away or a piece of bridge suddenly falling sideways and upward (as seen from the reset's point of view) is equivalent, no? How does it know to bring back the bullet in the first case, but the person (and not the piece of metal in the bridge) in the second?
A different example: say you are floating in zero gravity. How does the resett see the difference between 'a bullet moving away' and 'you moving backward while a bullet comes out of the gun and stays stationary'? After all, both 'bullet moves, you stay still' and 'you move, bullet stays still' are equivalent frames of reference on their own. So if the 5sec reset uses itself as reference frame, how does it differentiate between 'bullet moves' and 'person moves' if it doesn't use some sort of outside frame of reference?
To put it in another way: the earth spins around the sun at about 30 kilometers per second. So if the reset takes you back to 'where you were', shouldn't it teleport you 5*30=150 kilometers away, to the exact location your body was in terms of some 'galactic coordinates'?
It does use itself as reference. It knows that it used to be up there on the bridge 5 seconds ago. So it puts itself back where it was.
Don't make me get todd howard in here.
Looks good, but get an exact list of the things the preprogrammed knuckles can make.Spoiler: pimpknuckles (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Preprogrammed Pimpknuckles (click to show/hide)
yesOr on a moving planet? I mean...There kind of is this thing where planets move...Yes it is, pw has said so, but then how does the device differentiate between 'I am moving away from x' and 'x is moving toward me'?Kinda like missiles I guess, kinda like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Dvc1NrZJI)
Hah, that was unreasonably hilarious.
For the record, the very first two results already give some interesting potential results, in case people are wondering why I'm bothering with all this. For example, we know that if we fall down the pit, and hit reset, we go back up. Now imagine that instead of falling, you were standing inside a shuttle that flew down the pit so that your body has about the same trajectory as it had during the falling of the first scenario. It follows that, if you hit reset inside the shuttle, you will be teleported outside the shuttle up to that bridge (assuming the shuttle isn't so small it is teleported along with you, which is probably since the reset area isn't that large). Ergo, using the reset in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside the shuttle (and presumably to you splatting against the ground some time later). Thus, you can't safely use the reset while inside any moving vehicle.
Anywho, do the wristpads and such already have things like games on?
People have programmed games for them before. Mk suit helmets had Tetris, took a Willpower roll to stop playing, back in the old system at least.Well, you could think of ways to do that.
((Since Heph is dead, I'll post here.)) Charles asks for what he's meant to be doing now that the UWM has effectively collapsed. Figure out a way to recruit its remnants? Consolidate loyalty?
Or you could just go poke the other universes.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 01, 2016, 11:29:30 am
Okay, but how does it determine the reference frame for 'where it was'? Because if that's absolute coordinates the thing's pretty useless. You would only really be able to use it in a motionless or near-motionless frame of reference, which is not most planets. Or ships.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 01, 2016, 11:38:36 am
To re-ask the last question: why doesn't it teleport you into space or into the ground if you use the reset while on a planet (which is moving around the local star at a significant speed)?
And in this case:
Quote
For the record, the very first two results already give some interesting potential results, in case people are wondering why I'm bothering with all this. For example, we know that if we fall down the pit, and hit reset, we go back up. Now imagine that instead of falling, you were standing inside a shuttle that flew down the pit so that your body has about the same trajectory as it had during the falling of the first scenario. It follows that, if you hit reset inside the shuttle, you will be teleported outside the shuttle up to that bridge (assuming the shuttle isn't so small it is teleported along with you, which is probably since the reset area isn't that large). Ergo, using the reset in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside the shuttle (and presumably to you splatting against the ground some time later). Thus, you can't safely use the reset while inside any moving vehicle.is this correct, that using it in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside of it?
And as I mentioned, if you wanna say 'it just works as I need it to, it doesn't follow any strict rules' then that's fine, but just say so. Cause now you're claiming it works like x, but every other example here is evidence it simply cannot work like that. And not even in an "this couldn't work in the real world" but in a more basic "it isn't internally consistent, so a player cannot know what should happen upon using it". As said, this isn't meant to trap you or prove the system sucks, but to figure out where we stand in regards to using the thing. If the outcome is 'just ask pw whenever you wanna use it but aren't sure what ought to happen', that's fine by me. Hell, even if not knowing for sure what will happen when you press the button and not being allowed to ask for clarification is what you wanna go for, that's fine. Could be an interesting gameplay mechanic even, where pressing the button can save your life or make things infinitely worse when the wrong things happen.
Or, of course, it does work, but then I'm just not getting it.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 01, 2016, 02:33:49 pm
So, if you're in a shuttle, then it chooses the shuttle. If you're on a planet, then it chooses the planet. If you remove the 5-second reset and give it to someone else within 5 seconds, then it uses the two users as a frame of reference.
Post by: NAV on January 02, 2016, 12:36:01 am
Spoiler: Exact List (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on January 02, 2016, 12:41:10 am
Post by: Dutrius on January 02, 2016, 08:44:57 am
Does anyone have any other ideas to include?Spoiler: Exact List (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: more stuff that may or may not be useful (click to show/hide)
Hmm... I propose we rename it to the Swiss Army Pimpknuckle.
It would also be an ideal tool for on-the-fly repairing of stuff.
Post by: NAV on January 02, 2016, 12:23:20 pm
Good suggestion. Thanks.
@Dutrius:
There is already a near infinite shapeshifting multitool in the armoury for two tokens, so I don't want to clutter the pimpknuckle with too much stuff since it requires listing every single form.
Good name though, and some good ideas.
Spoiler: Changes (click to show/hide)
Piecewise, can players download or program new forms into their pimpknuckles after the buy it?
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 02, 2016, 12:47:34 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 02, 2016, 02:14:30 pm
Post by: NAV on January 02, 2016, 04:07:04 pm
Spoiler: A few more things (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: full list (click to show/hide)
Post by: Nunzillor on January 02, 2016, 04:08:56 pm
Post by: chaotic skies on January 02, 2016, 04:30:12 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 02, 2016, 08:15:17 pm
SAW1 -> <-SAW2
So it's more like two circular saws where the total net force is into the jaws of death
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 02, 2016, 08:40:24 pm
Post by: chaotic skies on January 03, 2016, 02:24:43 am
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2016, 12:25:35 pm
5-second reset:It won't return you to empty space because the planet moved if thats your question.
Okay, but how does it determine the reference frame for 'where it was'? Because if that's absolute coordinates the thing's pretty useless. You would only really be able to use it in a motionless or near-motionless frame of reference, which is not most planets. Or ships.
If it knows that, then it is explicitly not using itself as a frame of reference, it has to use an outside one. How does it know that it was the person holding the reset that did the moving, instead of the environment (or a particular object in it) doing the moving? It can only know that if it uses some sort of outside viewpoint to determine the difference between 'reset moves towards object x, which is standing still' and 'x moves towards the reset, which is standing still.*sigh*
To re-ask the last question: why doesn't it teleport you into space or into the ground if you use the reset while on a planet (which is moving around the local star at a significant speed)?
And in this case:QuoteFor the record, the very first two results already give some interesting potential results, in case people are wondering why I'm bothering with all this. For example, we know that if we fall down the pit, and hit reset, we go back up. Now imagine that instead of falling, you were standing inside a shuttle that flew down the pit so that your body has about the same trajectory as it had during the falling of the first scenario. It follows that, if you hit reset inside the shuttle, you will be teleported outside the shuttle up to that bridge (assuming the shuttle isn't so small it is teleported along with you, which is probably since the reset area isn't that large). Ergo, using the reset in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside the shuttle (and presumably to you splatting against the ground some time later). Thus, you can't safely use the reset while inside any moving vehicle.is this correct, that using it in a moving shuttle will teleport you outside of it?
And as I mentioned, if you wanna say 'it just works as I need it to, it doesn't follow any strict rules' then that's fine, but just say so. Cause now you're claiming it works like x, but every other example here is evidence it simply cannot work like that. And not even in an "this couldn't work in the real world" but in a more basic "it isn't internally consistent, so a player cannot know what should happen upon using it". As said, this isn't meant to trap you or prove the system sucks, but to figure out where we stand in regards to using the thing. If the outcome is 'just ask pw whenever you wanna use it but aren't sure what ought to happen', that's fine by me. Hell, even if not knowing for sure what will happen when you press the button and not being allowed to ask for clarification is what you wanna go for, that's fine. Could be an interesting gameplay mechanic even, where pressing the button can save your life or make things infinitely worse when the wrong things happen.
Or, of course, it does work, but then I'm just not getting it.
It uses me as a point of reference. It just works alright? It works in an intelligent meta logic way that is hard to explain without just realizing that you're playing an rpg.
Is there a specific reason why you need to know EXACTLY how it works? Because if this is gonna be a sticking point I can just get rid of it.
@Egan:I suppose there's no reason they can't.
Good suggestion. Thanks.
@Dutrius:
There is already a near infinite shapeshifting multitool in the armoury for two tokens, so I don't want to clutter the pimpknuckle with too much stuff since it requires listing every single form.
Good name though, and some good ideas.Spoiler: Changes (click to show/hide)
Piecewise, can players download or program new forms into their pimpknuckles after the buy it?
*For a small nominal fee at your local armory*
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2016, 01:20:05 pm
I mean, imagine you think up a rifle and tell us it shoots bullets, but then when we test it every time a laser beam comes out. It's not that laser rifles are wrong, or that I want a whole technical schematic of the thing, just clarity of whether it's a or b, because it can't be both at the same time. Not having cake and eating it to, you know.
Anyway, I'll play nice and drop the reference frame questions. If I may however, is there a chance with telefragging when the place you get send beck to is occupied with something else? Say somebody placed a solid brass Isaac Newton statue at the spot on that bridge where you fell off.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 06, 2016, 01:38:39 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2016, 03:21:52 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 06, 2016, 03:31:39 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 07, 2016, 02:29:58 am
"It has a heat seeking sensor" or "it uses heat to track targets" or "it works in situations where your target has a higher temperature than its surroundings" seems mostly equivalent to me.
And it's not like the questions haven't payed off, I think I have a much better working model of the reset now, which seems to adequately fit the data we have.
Post by: piecewise on January 08, 2016, 11:24:41 am
No, that's perfectly alright. Again, this isn't to annoy you, but to get clarity (well, and to dubblecheck if isn't me just being too dumb to get it). I don't need an ic explanation, just an idea how it works mechanically. And if that's just 'depends on the situation, there is no fixed frame of reference' that's perfectly fine, and now we know.Basically, it will intelligently determine how to reconstruct you as best it can. I mean, if you're standing on a bridge and the bridge blows up and you reset as you fall, you'll probably end up back where the bridge used to be, and falling again, not down where the piece of it that you were on came to rest. It's hard to say without knowing the specific situation.
I mean, imagine you think up a rifle and tell us it shoots bullets, but then when we test it every time a laser beam comes out. It's not that laser rifles are wrong, or that I want a whole technical schematic of the thing, just clarity of whether it's a or b, because it can't be both at the same time. Not having cake and eating it to, you know.
Anyway, I'll play nice and drop the reference frame questions. If I may however, is there a chance with telefragging when the place you get send beck to is occupied with something else? Say somebody placed a solid brass Isaac Newton statue at the spot on that bridge where you fell off.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 08, 2016, 01:12:22 pm
can we levitate them around and manipulate them at will?
basically can I shoot laser swords at people and create self winding pocket watches?
also whats the range limitation that the objects need to stay within?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 09, 2016, 08:32:17 am
Quote
How do you think mission 22 (the one with the Arbiter) should be described on the 'War Effort' page?
Minor failure.
1
Major failure.
3
Minor success.
2
Major success.
1
Minor failure/minor success (neutral).
3
I don't know, we should ask PW/Steve what he thinks, and use that.
6
The poll was created at 13:32 on December 6, 2015, and so far 16 people voted.
So pw, what do you think we should classify that missions as? It seems that the general opinion slightly leans toward it being a rather major failure.
I have an idea for a 'device' of sorts to help with our quest for a new home. Or rather, to help with the colonisation/building part. Would you mind if I go into that a bit more, or is that too close to tinker (as opposed to small questions)? It isn't an armory item.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 10, 2016, 09:44:27 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2016, 12:59:33 pm
How much control do we have over solid light objects after creation?Well...Ok. You could fire light swords out at people if you fired them as they were created. If you created them, let them fall to the ground and then wanted to shoot them later? No. If you wanted to keep them in orbit around you? No. At least not without also creating some weird contraption around you that did it for you.
can we levitate them around and manipulate them at will?
basically can I shoot laser swords at people and create self winding pocket watches?
also whats the range limitation that the objects need to stay within?
It's like 100 yards.
How about some kind of Weevil explosive? Nothing special, just a pack of glow-worm degenerators designed to be planted and activated to chew through important supports, perhaps with some sort of director function to chew through a few dozen metres of steel in a door shape instead of a massive sphere of 'Ieatyou'ness.
Sounds fine to me. But we're gonna have to define a sort of sphere of how much can be destroyed.
So, you know how we sometimes have a poll on the wiki? This was the latest one:I think we can classify it as no longer important.QuoteHow do you think mission 22 (the one with the Arbiter) should be described on the 'War Effort' page?
Minor failure.
1
Major failure.
3
Minor success.
2
Major success.
1
Minor failure/minor success (neutral).
3
I don't know, we should ask PW/Steve what he thinks, and use that.
6
The poll was created at 13:32 on December 6, 2015, and so far 16 people voted.
So pw, what do you think we should classify that missions as? It seems that the general opinion slightly leans toward it being a rather major failure.
I have an idea for a 'device' of sorts to help with our quest for a new home. Or rather, to help with the colonisation/building part. Would you mind if I go into that a bit more, or is that too close to tinker (as opposed to small questions)? It isn't an armory item.
Sure, fine. We can get general stuff, just no specifics.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2016, 01:31:39 pm
Pw, any new poll you would like to see on the wiki? Anything you're curious about or would like to ask the players about (and that isn't important znough to warrant a strawpoll)? Can be something silly.
Ok, but if you had to judge the mission based on its own merits, and not in light of the lurker happening, which of those poll options would you choose? 'Not important anymore' isn't really a valid answer for this wiki page. If you really don't know/don't have an opinion, say so and we'll have another poll on the wiki, because just using the next best score is apparently unfair.
Ok then. The very basic idea is to create a sort of 'autonomous colony building unit' combining our various (non origin) xenotech. It'd basically be a non-military application of various technologies we worked so hard to aquire over the years to create something that can build and expand infrastructure in a variety of new environments/universes without needing constant oversight.
Should I expand on the idea? I can already say it might turn out to be more of a background sort of thing, but I think it could be interesting nonetheless.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 11, 2016, 02:08:49 pm
Yeah, if pw doesn't care, then I'm just gonna go and label it as a failure, as the poll indicates.I believe your logic is flawed. The poll clearly says to ask piecewise what the mission should be labelled and use that. And piecewise clearly labelled it unimportant. I don't see how you can go from "unimportant" to "failure".
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2016, 02:27:43 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 11, 2016, 02:56:42 pm
If I seem to have a very strong opinion on the matter, it's because I've encountered similar situations in elections in the past, where people manipulated things to get the result they want in spite of what the people voted.
Post by: Nunzillor on January 11, 2016, 03:03:34 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2016, 03:37:18 pm
Err... isn't the next highest scoring option a tie between "Minor failure/minor success (neutral)" and "Major failure"? ...I feel like I'm missing something. Sorry, I'm not a clever man...Hey now, don't sell yourself short, that's a very valid remark. Thing is that I looked at the general votes for 'failure vs victory vs neutral' first since otherwise the votes for victory and failure get 'split apart' so to speak. And then you could have eg. 5 votes for minor failure, 5 for major failure and 6 for neutral, and get the end result of neutral, even though the majority of people thought it was a failure to some degree.
That said, if it's really that important, I guess I can make another poll if pw won't give a straight answer. But this time I won't let it stay up for so long, I kinda want to move on with this. Any other people that would want a new poll?
EDIT: I'll ask pw again for an actual label (conform the ones the other missions have) and if there's no straight answer, I'll make a new poll. That'll be the third one.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 11, 2016, 03:54:29 pm
Like how TVs work.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 11, 2016, 06:41:39 pm
Post by: Nikitian on January 13, 2016, 06:39:45 am
(As I said, those force mono-blades are sharp but they don't have the slicing, eroding power of a monoatomic razor, they still only cut as deep as a sharp blade can cut.)Just to confirm: 1)While they don't have the eroding power and depend on the usual "cutting" mechanics, the cutting edge is still monoatomically thin, right? (So "as deep as an absolutely sharp blade"?)
2)Technically, the two blades used in this fight were identical save for the material/technology, right?
(Because the force mono-blades were directly based off that same Doctor-brand monosword, only with forcefields instead of spacemagically arranged atoms.)
Post by: piecewise on January 14, 2016, 02:15:46 pm
Yeah, if pw doesn't care, then I'm just gonna go and label it as a failure, as the poll indicates.
Pw, any new poll you would like to see on the wiki? Anything you're curious about or would like to ask the players about (and that isn't important znough to warrant a strawpoll)? Can be something silly.
Ok, but if you had to judge the mission based on its own merits, and not in light of the lurker happening, which of those poll options would you choose? 'Not important anymore' isn't really a valid answer for this wiki page. If you really don't know/don't have an opinion, say so and we'll have another poll on the wiki, because just using the next best score is apparently unfair.
Ok then. The very basic idea is to create a sort of 'autonomous colony building unit' combining our various (non origin) xenotech. It'd basically be a non-military application of various technologies we worked so hard to aquire over the years to create something that can build and expand infrastructure in a variety of new environments/universes without needing constant oversight.
Should I expand on the idea? I can already say it might turn out to be more of a background sort of thing, but I think it could be interesting nonetheless.
Well, as far as I remember the objective was just to investigate and figure out what happened. And that got accomplished, didn't it?
Hmm well give me a run down of the basics. how is it gonna be building things, providing the necessary amenities of life, power and the like.
What's the flicker-fusion rate for hard-light objects??
Like how TVs work.
Please expand upon your meaning here, sir.
Hmm, well, all the Weevil gun says in the armoury is that it can chew through several feet of material, since I don't really have a rule of thumb distance for a foot, let's say... About twice that?Sphere of... lets say 10 feet sound alright?
(I'm not tinkering, this just seemed like a good place to repost this from OOC thread where it was apparently missed by Piecewise, just as syv foretold it. Thanks for the useful advice, anyway!)They are, though the big difference here is that one is a man cutting through very tough metals and metamaterials while the other is a combat robot cutting though flesh.(As I said, those force mono-blades are sharp but they don't have the slicing, eroding power of a monoatomic razor, they still only cut as deep as a sharp blade can cut.)Just to confirm: 1)While they don't have the eroding power and depend on the usual "cutting" mechanics, the cutting edge is still monoatomically thin, right? (So "as deep as an absolutely sharp blade"?)
2)Technically, the two blades used in this fight were identical save for the material/technology, right?
(Because the force mono-blades were directly based off that same Doctor-brand monosword, only with forcefields instead of spacemagically arranged atoms.)
Post by: Nikitian on January 14, 2016, 02:23:18 pm
In other news: Friends, it is confirmed that assaultsuit-wielded forceblades would fully benefit from the enormous strength of those! And, unfortunately, it appears to be a bit unfeasible to use forceblades for Str-challenged people (unlike the monowire weapons). Not to the point of 'regular' melee weapons, but still.
(Any further discussion is welcome in the Hephaestus OOC thread.)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 14, 2016, 02:52:41 pm
Fakedit: and it seems paris already did my work for me. Coolio, thanks paris.
Pw, any new poll you would like to see on the wiki? Anything you're curious about or would like to ask the players about (and that isn't important enough to warrant a strawpoll)? Can be something silly.
Quote
QuoteOk then. The very basic idea is to create a sort of 'autonomous colony building unit' combining our various (non origin) xenotech. It'd basically be a non-military application of various technologies we worked so hard to aquire over the years to create something that can build and expand infrastructure in a variety of new environments/universes without needing constant oversight.Hmm well give me a run down of the basics. how is it gonna be building things, providing the necessary amenities of life, power and the like.
Should I expand on the idea? I can already say it might turn out to be more of a background sort of thing, but I think it could be interesting nonetheless.
Well, the idea is to use our various technologies we acquired over the years and bring them together into a coherent unit. Some of the main components would be:
-the organic computers, which we train/program beforehand to make sure they are good at coordinating construction and adapting to different environments and situations. These are the main controlling unit.
-Heabi biomass and a controlling brain, which given its high adaptability and wild variety of possible forms should be convenient for all sorts of tasks, from breaking down available nutrients to creating specific lifeforms for certain tasks (eg a digging worn to carve out tunnels, or a root system that spreads out unto the soil to search for water or minerals). The Heabi brain woud interface with the organic computers to ensure efforts are well coordinated.
-sharkmist: like Heabi, is very versatile, depending on the type of job this or the former would be used more or less. A big use would be in fabricating things to expand the colony with (eg use the nutrient sludge and minerals the Heabi root bring up and convert them to wall plates and hab units).
-Stevebots: we'd send a couple along to help with initial building (and maybe a few hunters for protection) as well as the database so that new robots tailored to the current needs can be built.
-a couple generators (can be in parts for stevebots to assemble or whole) to keep the initial operation running and a bunch of bluerad cells. This until a suitable local energy source is found, or more generators can be built.
-mapping drones and the like.
-optionally, a whole bunch of frozen embryo's. While initially we will send fes or no actual humans along with the colony unit, having a bunch of frozen embryos aboard to restart a breeding stock with will help ensure that, even if something gors catastrophicslly wrong and we all die, that humanity will have a chance to continue on, somewhere out there. Of course, these are only thawed and used if both the needed infrastructure is built, and no communications have been had for a long time (indicating shit went wrong).
-optionally, a machine for dimension hopping. A small one for sending small packages of info back (aka to stay in touch) or a bigger one that allows the colony unit to jump around.
-all this inside a ship if possible, so that the unit can redeploy to a better position once teleported. Maybe even make it so the ship folds open to establish the intial colony (depending on how much stuff can be teleported at once).
So, when one of these colony units is deployed somewhere, it will start putting up industry and building a colony livable to humans without needing constant oversight. How it goes about this depends on local circumstances and needs, which is why getting the control unit right will be very important (and to ensure eg the sharkmist bots don't start breaking down the Heabi lifeforms and vice versa in a wastefull cycle). And if a universe doesn't seem to work out well in the end for permanent habitation, then we could instruct the colony unit to instead start strip mining it for interesting materials we can then ship back to our new universe.
Gameplay wise, it would give interesting opportunities for small missions, such as a colony requesting assistance from a team to deal with some local wildlife problems, and would allow you to be really creative in colony design (after all, strange environments might warrant unorthodox methods). Such as a universe that's mostly densely gaseous, and where the main colony is a floating 'cloud city' where big Heabi barges with enormous membranous sails fly around to scope up materials and ferry them to the sharkmist fabbers inside their belly.
Thoughts?
((Sorry for wallness of post.))
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 15, 2016, 12:30:57 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 15, 2016, 07:32:34 am
Post by: piecewise on January 15, 2016, 04:07:30 pm
How fast would one need to drop and reform a solid-light object to have floating objects?Pretty damn fast.
10 Feet? Yeah, that sounds alright, it'll pro'lly look like a simple rectangle, 'bout the size of both fists put together, has a timer and remote detonator, would it be possible to direct the weevils, though? Or are they just going to chew in any direction they feel like?Directionality is...difficult. I mean we could release them all in one direction but they're gonna move however they feel like so while you'll probably have the majority of them heading off in the right direction, some might double back.
Great, then we can mark that one down as a victory and be done with it. I'll go change it.
Fakedit: and it seems paris already did my work for me. Coolio, thanks paris.
Pw, any new poll you would like to see on the wiki? Anything you're curious about or would like to ask the players about (and that isn't important enough to warrant a strawpoll)? Can be something silly.QuoteQuoteOk then. The very basic idea is to create a sort of 'autonomous colony building unit' combining our various (non origin) xenotech. It'd basically be a non-military application of various technologies we worked so hard to aquire over the years to create something that can build and expand infrastructure in a variety of new environments/universes without needing constant oversight.Hmm well give me a run down of the basics. how is it gonna be building things, providing the necessary amenities of life, power and the like.
Should I expand on the idea? I can already say it might turn out to be more of a background sort of thing, but I think it could be interesting nonetheless.
Well, the idea is to use our various technologies we acquired over the years and bring them together into a coherent unit. Some of the main components would be:
-the organic computers, which we train/program beforehand to make sure they are good at coordinating construction and adapting to different environments and situations. These are the main controlling unit.
-Heabi biomass and a controlling brain, which given its high adaptability and wild variety of possible forms should be convenient for all sorts of tasks, from breaking down available nutrients to creating specific lifeforms for certain tasks (eg a digging worn to carve out tunnels, or a root system that spreads out unto the soil to search for water or minerals). The Heabi brain woud interface with the organic computers to ensure efforts are well coordinated.
-sharkmist: like Heabi, is very versatile, depending on the type of job this or the former would be used more or less. A big use would be in fabricating things to expand the colony with (eg use the nutrient sludge and minerals the Heabi root bring up and convert them to wall plates and hab units).
-Stevebots: we'd send a couple along to help with initial building (and maybe a few hunters for protection) as well as the database so that new robots tailored to the current needs can be built.
-a couple generators (can be in parts for stevebots to assemble or whole) to keep the initial operation running and a bunch of bluerad cells. This until a suitable local energy source is found, or more generators can be built.
-mapping drones and the like.
-optionally, a whole bunch of frozen embryo's. While initially we will send fes or no actual humans along with the colony unit, having a bunch of frozen embryos aboard to restart a breeding stock with will help ensure that, even if something gors catastrophicslly wrong and we all die, that humanity will have a chance to continue on, somewhere out there. Of course, these are only thawed and used if both the needed infrastructure is built, and no communications have been had for a long time (indicating shit went wrong).
-optionally, a machine for dimension hopping. A small one for sending small packages of info back (aka to stay in touch) or a bigger one that allows the colony unit to jump around.
-all this inside a ship if possible, so that the unit can redeploy to a better position once teleported. Maybe even make it so the ship folds open to establish the intial colony (depending on how much stuff can be teleported at once).
So, when one of these colony units is deployed somewhere, it will start putting up industry and building a colony livable to humans without needing constant oversight. How it goes about this depends on local circumstances and needs, which is why getting the control unit right will be very important (and to ensure eg the sharkmist bots don't start breaking down the Heabi lifeforms and vice versa in a wastefull cycle). And if a universe doesn't seem to work out well in the end for permanent habitation, then we could instruct the colony unit to instead start strip mining it for interesting materials we can then ship back to our new universe.
Gameplay wise, it would give interesting opportunities for small missions, such as a colony requesting assistance from a team to deal with some local wildlife problems, and would allow you to be really creative in colony design (after all, strange environments might warrant unorthodox methods). Such as a universe that's mostly densely gaseous, and where the main colony is a floating 'cloud city' where big Heabi barges with enormous membranous sails fly around to scope up materials and ferry them to the sharkmist fabbers inside their belly.
Thoughts?
((Sorry for wallness of post.))
Most of that is possible, though getting all those things to play nice together might be a little tricky; Though, the dimension hopping thing is a no go. Extrauniverstal engines are...well it took the doctor several hundred years to figure out how to make it and they're very large. Not easy to mass produce.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 15, 2016, 04:11:48 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 15, 2016, 04:31:10 pm
Quote
Most of that is possible, though getting all those things to play nice together might be a little tricky; Though, the dimension hopping thing is a no go. Extrauniverstal engines are...well it took the doctor several hundred years to figure out how to make it and they're very large. Not easy to mass produce.Yeah, scrap the universe hopping then. Figured those wouldn't be easy to get anyway.
And yes, I acknowledge getting these various technologies, what with their very different origins and characteristics, go mesh together is not a trivial task. Which is why I thought the adaptive organic computers might work well for this, since we could presumably keep evolving them till it works (though if something like a wetware ai would work better that's also fine of course).
How large a ship could we teleport, by the way, with the current machine? And could we build a bigger one?
Any more info you need? More details, plans on how to do the 'training' of the contol unit? What do you/Steve think of the plan itself, think it could work/provide game opportunities? Or shouldn't we bother working on it more?
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 15, 2016, 04:38:17 pm
Post by: MidnightJaguar on January 15, 2016, 05:02:36 pm
Would it be possible to resurrect a crystal person using the crystalline projector and a unwilling test subject? You don't have to tell me if it is and please don't tell me how to do it. I'm fine with experimenting in or out of Tinker once I get done with my mission, but I thought that it might save both of us some work if I knew if what I was attempting was even possible in the game.
P.S. Please don't kill
Post by: NAV on January 15, 2016, 05:39:59 pm
Heavy Exoskeleton
-An upgraded exoskeleton that is the exact same strength as a synthflesh body.
-Bulkier than a standard exoskeleton, but should still let the wearer move freely indoors.
Because we need something to fill the gap left by synthflesh (at least strength tier wise). I'm mostly designing this as a base for the armoured version.
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton
-Add armour to the Heavy Exoskeleton, a couple layers of battlesuit plate would probably be best.
Something to fill the niche of a mini assaultsuit, that provides lots of strength and protection but still lets the wearer move around freely indoors, and doesn't require getting your body chopped off. Fills basically the same niche as the old mining and industrial exosuits except modernized and militarized.
ARM longcoat
-Take Civic defenders longcoat. Add a layer of hexsand coating. Add a hood that fits over helmets.
-Maybe weave in some battlesuit plate fibers, for added laser defense and durability. I'm not sure if that would work.
Sharkplate is very nice. There is still a niche for ultralight cloth armour, either for black ops to disguise as civilian clothes, or to layer over sharkplate, or to protect the limbs of someone wearing flight milnoplate.
Gungnir Electrolaser kit MK2
-Replace the tesla sabre with a spark gap, same power but much cheaper because it doesn't need any automanips or lightning emitters. Make it so it can be added to any suitable laser instead of just a laser rifle. Remove the token to required to attach it to the gun.
Because the Gungnir is a good idea done wrong. This should fix that making it a cheap upgrade instead of a ridiculously expensive one.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 15, 2016, 05:56:04 pm
Would there be any other problems with it or is that about it?
Post by: Nikitian on January 15, 2016, 06:52:40 pm
Now that I'm off mission it's time for tinker ;D
Heavy Exoskeleton
-An upgraded exoskeleton that is the exact same strength as a synthflesh body.
-Bulkier than a standard exoskeleton, but should still let the wearer move freely indoors.
Because we need something to fill the gap left by synthflesh (at least strength tier wise). I'm mostly designing this as a base for the armoured version.
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton
-Add armour to the Heavy Exoskeleton, hex-composite is probably the best option.
Something to fill the niche of a mini assaultsuit, that provides lots of strength and protection but still lets the wearer move around freely indoors, and doesn't require getting your body chopped off. Fills basically the same niche as the old mining and industrial exosuits except modernized and militarized.
Note that our current exoskeleton is, in fact, ~twice as light/less bulky as the one we initially had (thanks to the 2x exoskeleton strength research sometime ago) - I'm not sure if synthflesh is more than or less than twice mightier than a regular exoskeleton, but note that it probably shouldn't be that bulky as you could imagine (or, as the expression of an industrial exosuit made).
Second, if you use hex composite (I presume you mean hexsand?..), please consider to add something against purely kinetic damage - hexsand is a bit fragile and is certainly not up to the standards of the battleplate, for example.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 15, 2016, 07:08:50 pm
Post by: NAV on January 15, 2016, 07:14:22 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 16, 2016, 06:04:47 pm
Do note that anything I say is very possibly inaccurate, simply due to the randomness and luck inherent to Tinker. PW almost certainly doesn't remember how hex composite works, so thinning it could actually work exceptionally well, if you're lucky.
That said, you're probably better off just using battlesuit plate instead of thinned hex composite. Most weapons fall into one of two broad categories: weapons which have a hard time breaking one layer of BS plate, and weapons which can quickly break all five layers with ease. There's exceptions, like the HEP, but most weapons fall into one or the other. Hexcomp is made to take advantage of this, by using one layer of BS plate (becoming temporarily immune to the former category), and two layers which are nearly immune to either kinetics or energetics (becoming highly resistant to BS killer weapons, and completely immune if only kinetics or energetics are being used).
Thinning hexcomp would probably degrade this effect significantly, because you'll still die quickly to BS killers, but won't have nearly as much resistance to small arms as BS plate would grant. You'll retain immunity to certain types of BS killers--anything laser, and anything shard--but stuff like energy projectors, plasma, and HGCs will still ruin you.
So using thinned hexcomp is much more of a tradeoff; You might have something like 50% better resistance against BS killers, compared to having just two layers of BS plate, but you're going to have significantly worse resistance to small arms.
Post by: NAV on January 17, 2016, 01:00:08 am
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 17, 2016, 01:19:09 am
Can we replace the energy dissipating fibers inside battleplate with the energy devouring hexplate filaments to make some kind of super battleplate?
Post by: Pancaek on January 17, 2016, 06:04:41 pm
-A mithril plate costs about 30 tokens, per armoury description. Can I get that fashioned into an armouring for the white mask, which only leaves a patch in the back of the mask exposed so as to be able to make contact to the body.
-Also, Add in some padding so that "the bullet hits the mythril, the armour is unharmed but the mask within is shattered" doesn't happen? If mythril even lets energy through, that is.
-Would it be possible to put some amoint of pimpcane metal on the back of the mask between the mask and the armour. So that it touches the mask but cannot just leak out? Enough material so that when possesed the mask can float at a reasonable speed.
Would this work?
Post by: Empiricist on January 21, 2016, 05:42:22 pm
Post by: NAV on January 21, 2016, 05:47:01 pm
Post by: Empiricist on January 21, 2016, 05:51:15 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 21, 2016, 07:32:59 pm
Damn. Thanks for the heads up.You can always just have flying use Exo instead of Aux, by having the user directly control it. Of course, it will probably be slower than a MK suit and probably more unstable too, but probably more responsive, with better acceleration.
Imagine if it were used for ships. Every rower gathers around a giant column of evershifting pimpenium floating in the middle of the vessel, hundreds of men and women woken from stasis, each group standing on its own level. They sit down crossed legged, trying to follow instructions, even though their shackles get in the way. They close their eyes and extend their hands, until they are enveloped by the material. And then, the green voice gives the command and everyone thinks the same thought. The column snaps forward and immediately everyone is pushed hard against the floor by the acceleration. The column wobbles for a bit, the material shifting and trying to escape, but the automated systems maintain its position, making sure it is in the optimal shape, resisting stray thoughts, reaching out to grab the hands of those who falter.
It could work really well for some other setting or maybe a fanfic set in a universe settled by humanity in the future. Have the rowers be slaves, like in ancient times, moving giant vessels for trade or combat. Maybe in this universe, newton's first law is not true and objects actually decelerate when a force is not acting on them, greatly multiplying the inefficiency of vessels that carry their own fuel. Laser-powered Solar-sail-like things can be used close to colonies, but they are cumbersome and expensive. So humans have adapted by using pimpmetal to create ships that can move almost indefinitely, as long as they have rowers above and enough power to create food for them. You could even have great harverster ships coming down to collect more rowers from planets that have regressed to more primitive states. Set up an evil empire or a pirate faction that raids worlds for slaves and resources.
I know that if syvarris was in that universe he'd say that they're doing it wrong because they can embed the pimpenium in the ship instead of having it free inside it or put all rowers in braincases and brainwash them or something like that, but screw efficiency, sometimes you want to make something look cool.
FAKEEDIT: Damn my imagination. I started with writing a single sentence and then I was inspired with a story and then I had to write it.
Post by: Nikitian on January 21, 2016, 08:21:47 pm
Post by: NAV on January 22, 2016, 01:02:29 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2016, 02:31:41 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 22, 2016, 03:43:01 pm
I'm putting you in charge of tinker on a provisional basis. The council will still be around to provide advice if you need it and I'm here if you have questions. Try to strike a good balance of not making completely overpowered stuff but also still letting people have fun.
Well... That's surprising. Not unwelcome, though!
Council people! I'm assuming you'll continue deciding balance and price? I'd be willing to do it, but something tells me that's not what PW intended.
To tinkerers: I'm probably gonna be more of a jerk about Tinker than PW. If you try and ask tiny little questions just to get quotes you can use to trap me later, then I'll rule 0 those quotes into shivs whivh I can stab you in the back with. And then I'll see if I can convince PW to actually deal that damage to your chars. Try to syv syv, and you will regret it.
Aside from that, have fun! A new age of Tinker has come! :D
We have a new tinkermaster! Does that mean we can test armor thickness?
Yes. Just don't expect it to be respected by PW. In other words, go ahead; nothing has changed.
I'll deal with earlier posts later--I'm busy now, and just wanted to make an introductory post.
Post by: Empiricist on January 22, 2016, 03:48:00 pm
Try to syv syv, and you will regret it.Sigged.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 22, 2016, 03:54:56 pm
Post by: Nikitian on January 22, 2016, 04:14:53 pm
Council people! I'm assuming you'll continue deciding balance and price? I'd be willing to do it, but something tells me that's not what PW intended.Nope. Please, nope. At least, not completely. I mean, that's half of the point of Tinker to give the initial price. Without the price, we might as well have experienced tinkerers run "tinker" through explaining stuff to other people (the way you helped Pancaek, for example).
So - no. This change absolutely does not equal giving the whole pricing power to the Council; that simply must not be. In fact, it might rather be the opposite, or something in the middle. So - I highly request that you assign prices (with Piecewise's approval, of course) and maybe then they go to the Council for "balancing".
(Do not let them intimidate you. They are your peers right now, more or less. You were assigned by authority of Piecewise, not the Council.)
Edit: I do not imply that the Council shouldn't balance things if Piecewise (or you, even) call for it. I imply that you should not default to handing all equipment over to them for pricing. Because, just a few posts back, we can see that Piecewise still gave out prices on the majority of equipment (if still sometimes called for the Council's assistance in more difficult cases).
To tinkerers: I'm probably gonna be more of a jerk about Tinker than PW. If you try and ask tiny little questions just to get quotes you can use to trap me later, then I'll rule 0 those quotes into shivs whivh I can stab you in the back with. And then I'll see if I can convince PW to actually deal that damage to your chars. Try to syv syv, and you will regret it.Hey, quick litmus test! (As you know me well, and we have tinkered together, so you know my approaches.) Should I fear your rule of the Tinker?
Aside from that, have fun! A new age of Tinker has come! :D
(This is not a question about your integrity and fairness - I presume them inviolable, of course. This is a question of whether not-syvs should fear the reign of syv-Tinker.)
Post by: syvarris on January 22, 2016, 07:47:40 pm
I'll probably continue giving suggestions on what I think are fair prices. I did that even before I got appointed, after all. What I mean is that I'll give final say on stats to the council. I might argue with them more than I did before, but even if I wanted to have executive power over stats, I don't; if the council disagrees with me, their word is final.
No, you shouldn't fear me. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who should--Nobody has been very underhanded with Tinker in a long time, not even myself. Still, I am going to be much more willing to rule 0 past statements that I have made. PW's old word still trumps any of mine, of course.
Okay, but could it be done?
...This is a problem. Questions about how reality works have to be answered by PW. I can offer my opinion, but it's obviously going to be nothing more than "I think PW would do X".
Said opinion is "Probably, if you have a really high uncon skill."
Also, for future reference, please include context in your post. They can be quotes, or simple copypasta in a spoiler or whatever, but please minimize the amount of scrolling I have to do. Radio's post below is an okay example, though it lacks some context.
QuoteMost of that is possible, though getting all those things to play nice together might be a little tricky; Though, the dimension hopping thing is a no go. Extrauniverstal engines are...well it took the doctor several hundred years to figure out how to make it and they're very large. Not easy to mass produce.Yeah, scrap the universe hopping then. Figured those wouldn't be easy to get anyway.
And yes, I acknowledge getting these various technologies, what with their very different origins and characteristics, go mesh together is not a trivial task. Which is why I thought the adaptive organic computers might work well for this, since we could presumably keep evolving them till it works (though if something like a wetware ai would work better that's also fine of course).
How large a ship could we teleport, by the way, with the current machine? And could we build a bigger one?
Any more info you need? More details, plans on how to do the 'training' of the contol unit? What do you/Steve think of the plan itself, think it could work/provide game opportunities? Or shouldn't we bother working on it more?
This is another reality question. Also a Steve question. Also, there's five individual questions, which makes it somewhat unpleasant for me to parse. You know how my action posts typically have numbered bullet points, each of which typically receives one response? Using that method will probably get the most clarity from me.
In any case, I do know we can build a bigger extrauniversal engine. I asked at some point in the M26 thread, and PW said we could build it larger. Beyond that, I cannot answer any of your other questions.
Sorry to add to your workload Piecewise, but I’ve been wanting to ask this question ever since I read the first mission.
Would it be possible to resurrect a crystal person using the crystalline projector and a unwilling test subject? You don't have to tell me if it is and please don't tell me how to do it. I'm fine with experimenting in or out of Tinker once I get done with my mission, but I thought that it might save both of us some work if I knew if what I was attempting was even possible in the game.
P.S. Please don't kill
I'm sensing a trend, here...
No idea, though it sounds interesting. If I had to guess, you might get a sapient being out of this, but I highly doubt it would be useful in any manner, and it probably wouldn't be the same species as the crystal people in the same way a sod is not a human. PW ain't gonna hurt you for a question like this though, so feel free to ask him yourself.
Now that I'm off mission it's time for tinker ;D
Heavy Exoskeleton
-An upgraded exoskeleton that is the exact same strength as a synthflesh body.
-Bulkier than a standard exoskeleton, but should still let the wearer move freely indoors.
Because we need something to fill the gap left by synthflesh (at least strength tier wise). I'm mostly designing this as a base for the armoured version.
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton
-Add armour to the Heavy Exoskeleton, a couple layers of battlesuit plate would probably be best.
Something to fill the niche of a mini assaultsuit, that provides lots of strength and protection but still lets the wearer move around freely indoors, and doesn't require getting your body chopped off. Fills basically the same niche as the old mining and industrial exosuits except modernized and militarized.
ARM longcoat
-Take Civic defenders longcoat. Add a layer of hexsand coating. Add a hood that fits over helmets.
-Maybe weave in some battlesuit plate fibers, for added laser defense and durability. I'm not sure if that would work.
Sharkplate is very nice. There is still a niche for ultralight cloth armour, either for black ops to disguise as civilian clothes, or to layer over sharkplate, or to protect the limbs of someone wearing flight milnoplate.
Gungnir Electrolaser kit MK2
-Replace the tesla sabre with a spark gap, same power but much cheaper because it doesn't need any automanips or lightning emitters. Make it so it can be added to any suitable laser instead of just a laser rifle. Remove the token to required to attach it to the gun.
Because the Gungnir is a good idea done wrong. This should fix that making it a cheap upgrade instead of a ridiculously expensive one.
Ooh, I like this one.
Heavy Exoskeleton:
I don't see any reason why this couldn't exist. Shouldn't be bulky, either.
I feel like an appropriate price would be either seven or eight tokens. On one hand, it's ~twice as strong as a standard exo, which is only five tokens. On the other hand, the strength bonus isn't very helpful, since only the LESHO and Fission Instigator require synthflesh-level strength, so the only real benefit is punching through concrete walls and such.
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton:
Okay. I'm assuming you're going with two layers of battlesuit plate?
Twelve tokens, I think. Maybe one or two more. It should certainly be cheaper than an assaultsuit at 15, but it should also be more expensive than full milnoplate at 10. Balance-wise, a price of 12 isn't too close to Milnoplate since Milnoplate doesn't prevent flight, and doubling the armor doesn't double your survivability.
ARM longcoat:
Hexsand coating (assuming it's just thick enough to handle basic lasrifles) and hood should be free for an updated version.
Battlesuit plate fibers... That would stiffen the cloak a good bit, but would certainly add durability. Let's say a token (making it four total), and it doesn't shatter into uselessness when hit with a strong kinetic. Hexsand coating would still shatter, since it's a ceramic. Fibers wouldn't add much laser resistance, since the lasers could just melt around the fibers, but it would hold together better, for what that's worth.
Gungnir Electrolaser kit MK2:
Nyyyeh. Two tokens, unless the council complains. Requires a handi roll to attach. No battery rack. Uses its own Tesla Saber batteries, not the gun's. All assuming you want to mimic the gungnir's power.
If we're pricing purely on balance, this is definitely at least three tokens. Very little range loss over the tesla saber when used as a bayonet, plus it can use CON instead of UNC when in atmosphere. I think two is fair, though.
Also, the tesla saber is no longer a lightning sword, if memory serves. It's a metal stick.
Eh, the chance of them doubling back doesn't really bother me, it isn't really supposed to be something you stay next to while it goes off.
Would there be any other problems with it or is that about it?
CONTEXT.
I'm pretty sure it would be unable to deal with spaces between walls. IE:
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||| ||||Only one side would be eaten. You also might have difficulty making the bomb itself small, unless you're fine with digging a cone, or a thin hole. They can't be told to change direction after a set distance, remember.
Still, my word ain't final. I don't know how weevils work.
i wonder...I like this idea! It should make battlesuit plate even more resistant to lasers, and actually give it a good defense against plasma. I could see it being slightly more expensive, since hexsand is a ceramic, which might make the manufacturing process more difficult, but I'd call it a free upgrade.
Can we replace the energy dissipating fibers inside battleplate with the energy devouring hexplate filaments to make some kind of super battleplate?
It would make our armor less shiny, though. Probably an acceptable tradeoff, but still.
I need a cost and effectiveness for the followingYou dealt with this in IRC, right? I probably shouldn't deal with this post if not, since I was involved in the design, but I'll do it anyway.
-A mithril plate costs about 30 tokens, per armoury description. Can I get that fashioned into an armouring for the white mask, which only leaves a patch in the back of the mask exposed so as to be able to make contact to the body.
-Also, Add in some padding so that "the bullet hits the mythril, the armour is unharmed but the mask within is shattered" doesn't happen? If mythril even lets energy through, that is.
-Would it be possible to put some amoint of pimpcane metal on the back of the mask between the mask and the armour. So that it touches the mask but cannot just leak out? Enough material so that when possesed the mask can float at a reasonable speed.
Would this work?
I'd call 30 tokens fair, no padding needed, with mobility pimpmetal being free on top of that. It costs so much already that a bit of pimpmetal isn't a problem.
Are you gonna pursue armory inclusion for this? Basically gets you 25% off, although that's not exactly the main purpose of armory inclusion.
I know that if syvarris was in that universe he'd say that they're doing it wrong because they can embed the pimpenium in the ship instead of having it free inside it or put all rowers in braincases and brainwash them or something like that, but screw efficiency, sometimes you want to make something look cool.
You know me so well, don't you? :P
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 22, 2016, 07:57:29 pm
Well, I doubt many structures would have buffered layers like that, which is what the Weevil explosive would be designed to get through, and you don't really need explosive power, only enough to propel the weevils into the wall, perhaps you could have soemthing like a strecthy tarp with adhesive layers around the sides, with little pouches of weevils set in a simple pattern backed with some directed explosives, that would allow you to easily adjust the size of the hole, right?
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 22, 2016, 09:14:53 pm
So what you need is to create a larger, gauss cannon equivalent that can shoot the equivalent of nuclear rounds and a LESHO equivalent that can shoot the equivalent of computer guided nuclear AT sniper rounds. Then you can balance bullet types based on the bullet types we have on gauss rifles right now.
So, for example, for the normal, 1 token clip equivalent, you could get multiple weak bullets. Perhaps some sort of kinetic impact rounds that hit whatever the gun is pointing at with the equivalent force of a bullet, if we want to be unimaginative.
What do you think, Syv?
I briefly thought about suggesting things like repair or heal bullets, but then I realized that's the sort of thing Aux users would do, only this time I'd be replacing other skills with Con and I don't want to screw with balance.
Post by: NAV on January 22, 2016, 10:15:42 pm
For the ARM longcoat (Maybe I should rename this Dragoncoat because of the scales?) I decided against the fibers. Being more expensive than sharkplate is just wrong, and the fibers don't add enough to justify the extra token.
Council please!
Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: ARM Longcoat (click to show/hide)
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton:
How about 1 layer of hex-composite on the torso and helmet, + 1 layer of battlesuit plate on the entire body? That way the vitals have significant resistance to heavy weapons, and the entire body is basically immune to small arms.
12 tokens seems ideal, since you're still getting much less than an assaultsuit. Maybe 13. 14 is crazy.
Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2:
Why would it need a handi roll to attach? It should just bolt on to a rail like any attachment.
All the parts it needs to consist of are two metal prongs, some wires, a trigger, insulation, a rail mounting, and a transformer. All pretty cheap stuff, 1 token max. Then add a small generator. 1-2 tokens? Total: 2-3 tokens? The only thing that should cost significant money is the generator.
The main reason I want it generator powered is so we don't have to keep track of and pay for two types of ammo for one weapon.
Effect:
In atmosphere: Your laser now shoots lightning. It fries any uninsulated electronics you shoot, and it fries any uninsulated people you shoot. Really good against people in vehicles or other ungrounded metal boxes, or in water. Might have a chance to arc to multiple people or electrocute them with a near miss.
In vaccuum: You have a taser bayonet.
In water: You die.
Does that seem fair? Remember this is an upgrade not a weapon, you still have to buy the laser to put it on.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 22, 2016, 10:47:35 pm
maybe call it warplate?
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on January 22, 2016, 11:06:01 pm
Spoiler: Monosaw proposals (click to show/hide)
Post by: NAV on January 22, 2016, 11:11:59 pm
(I'm estimating 6 tokens for the radial saw and 10 for the chainsaw.)
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2016, 11:18:49 pm
About the same price as blaster, shoots electricity rather than laser, doesn't work in vacuum, has a non-lethal mode.
Electroblaster?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 22, 2016, 11:21:30 pm
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 22, 2016, 11:24:56 pm
I've got two designs.
Number 1 is a halberd.
or more specifically a profesional high flex golf club with a heavy iron club head that contains the field projector.
It uses the immense G-forces generated by the flex of the shaft as the heavy iron weight snaps forward when swung, and the weight of the club head itself, to force the blade to cleave through whatever its swung at.
The second is a curved sword.
Basically this one is gonna be similar to a kilij.
Its got a blade that continues straight for two thirds of its length, the curves back at a 35° angle for the rest.
now behind this is gonna be a curved metal rod with a heavy metal bulb on the end reminiscent of one of those plastic tennis ball throwers.
it operates on the same principle as the weapon above.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2016, 11:51:21 pm
Post by: Empiricist on January 23, 2016, 12:40:12 am
2a. So have the R&D guys figured out anything more about the God Modem?
2b. I mean beyond just making sexual harassment lions and mind control arms?
2c. What prototypes or basic widgets have they derived from it?
3a. Are throwing knives made out of pure Piezoelectric crystal UNCON? Because PW said they might be.
4a. From the aftermath of the Lurker's entrance, are there any electrical anomalies from things such as manip overloads?
5a. Can the 5 Second Reset have is time increased/decreased, changing how much battery each use requires?
5b. What happens to a human brain being carried by the user if it gets destroyed and is then reset?
5c. If you press it against someone and remotely activated it repeatedly, what happens?
5d. What if a mindless automaton uses it?
6a. Can a Pocket Dimension be given two Entrance/Exits?
6b. Can a Pocket Dimension have a dedicated Entrance in one location and a dedicated Exit in another?
7a. Is it possible to make a Matter Saver Woodchipper that quickly saves the matter it touches and ejects it in pieces?
7b. Can a Matter Saver be modified to that one end saves and the other end loads?
7c. Can a Pocket Dimension feed directly into a Matter Saver cartridge?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 23, 2016, 12:56:30 am
Post by: Nikitian on January 23, 2016, 06:42:11 am
For PIECEWISE:
- Could you please check your memory, consult your notes, and describe 1) Walking (Magister's?) Bastion, 2) High-Guard Armor, 3) Arbiter Cloak (not to be confused with Avatar Cloak) "cloth" armors?
Spoiler: Source, for reference: (click to show/hide)
- Secondly, could you explain the tech behind the Avatar Cloak a bit? I.e., just enough handwavium so we could handwave along, not in-depth technical specs, of course.
FOR SYVARRIS:
(And yeah, no selective capitalization because the name looks better when uniform. Got that!)
- Sharksuit 1.5
Add a small layer of hexsand to the sharksuit as the innermost coating. It should be cheap enough (possibly remove the equal measure of sharkmist armor for economic and uniformity purposes) not to increase the cost while marginally increasing the survivability and protecting the user from "being fed upon by his own suit", should that ever happen. - Emergency wireline
The concept is simple: I want, with our modern ER tech applied (only as relevant), a big, long reel of wire (cable?) that could be used for communications. Because anomaly missions happen (I've had this concept in mind since M6, but M21 just notched it up further), as well as because sometimes there is also enemy interference to be considered (which also might be alien/anomalous in nature, so not as easily dealt with).
I want this wire strong, I want it capable of supporting all our communications (i.e. probably a bit more than just a few threads of copper wire), I want it lightweight (for transportation and for longer length of unsupported cable) - in that order of importance. Oh, and of course, first and foremost, I want it cheap - because this isn't just yesterday tech, this isn't even last millenium tech.
(This Tinker-project is for the wire/cable itself, but for the purposes of Tinkering, let's add a 1-token reel of it to this action - unless you think it could as well be completely free.) - MCP 1.1 (suit chassis)
Add:- magnetic clamps (MCP-II already has the non-magnetic ones, but MCP-I doesn't, and let's add the secondary system as well) - on feet and additional smaller on hands and on elbows
- small comms box for using the wire/cable described above with a small reel of said wire
- simple, cheap, basic thrusters (maybe ion, feeding off the suit generator, maybe gas ones, maybe regular advanced-fuel ones with just a tiny bit of fuel) - not enough for a jump on a surface of a planet, but just enough delta-v to offer some manoeuvring capability in open space
- rope harness with a reel of rope for space and ground operations (rope strengthened (a lot) & lightened (maybe) with tech, but, again, extremely cheap), complete with a number of swiveling hooks and other related equipment (notably, a pack of special clips for affixing the wire to the rope)
- proper utility belt for all the things and connectors and stuff (implied earlier, but now we need it explicitly) - the belt should be detachable (apart from the reels/connectors, of course)
(I feel that at this point I should just stop, but - bear with me, the next one is going to be extremely short and simple. And also, four is such a nice number!) - Milnoplate brain-casing
Take Milnoplate, adapt as an armoring add-on for robo-bodies - encase the braincase with it for drastically improved survivability. As simple as a Milnoplate helmet adapted for robo-bodies. Probably shouldn't even interfere with any armoring add-ons either.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 23, 2016, 09:48:40 am
Let's finalize Chem Thrower extra chems.
1. Doomsday, 10 uses canister.
2. Haebi acid, 10 uses canister. Perhaps separate one time purchase of 1 token forcefield tubing to prevent it melting the weapon?
Post by: syvarris on January 23, 2016, 09:49:19 pm
...You asked for potential problems. I named the potential problems that came to mind. Hmm. Maybe I should roll people's int scores when they ask open ended questions like that...
Well, I doubt many structures would have buffered layers like that, which is what the Weevil explosive would be designed to get through, and you don't really need explosive power, only enough to propel the weevils into the wall, perhaps you could have soemthing like a strecthy tarp with adhesive layers around the sides, with little pouches of weevils set in a simple pattern backed with some directed explosives, that would allow you to easily adjust the size of the hole, right?
Tarp design would work. Let's say you can cut around the pouches to alter the size of the tunnel you want to dig.
Suggestion: Treat Arranger as replacement for Gauss-type weapons. Balance their bullets that way.They're essentially gauss rifles that trade slower fire rate (each bullet needs to be loaded instead of being semi-auto) for the ability to use more powerful and varied ammo types. They even have the same price.
So what you need is to create a larger, gauss cannon equivalent that can shoot the equivalent of nuclear rounds and a LESHO equivalent that can shoot the equivalent of computer guided nuclear AT sniper rounds. Then you can balance bullet types based on the bullet types we have on gauss rifles right now.
So, for example, for the normal, 1 token clip equivalent, you could get multiple weak bullets. Perhaps some sort of kinetic impact rounds that hit whatever the gun is pointing at with the equivalent force of a bullet, if we want to be unimaginative.
What do you think, Syv?
I briefly thought about suggesting things like repair or heal bullets, but then I realized that's the sort of thing Aux users would do, only this time I'd be replacing other skills with Con and I don't want to screw with balance.
Hmm. I do like that idea. It could potentially obsolete a lot of guns, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's up to the council in the end, though.
Repair and heal bullets are fine with me, as long as they're expensive. Buy an emergency kit with five uses for three tokens, or buy a single-use medibullet for four, plus the gun at two. Not terribly unbalanced.
The heavy exoskeleton's good for more than just wielding a LESHO. There are several guns that require an exoskeleton and +1 or +2 strength. It would let people without +1 or +2 strength wield those.I hadn't considered the heavy exo's use for getting around strength stat requirements. Good point. My price recommendation doesn't change, though now I'm leaning more towards 8 rather than 7 tokens.
For the ARM longcoat (Maybe I should rename this Dragoncoat because of the scales?) I decided against the fibers. Being more expensive than sharkplate is just wrong, and the fibers don't add enough to justify the extra token.
Council please!Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: ARM Longcoat (click to show/hide)
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton:
How about 1 layer of hex-composite on the torso and helmet, + 1 layer of battlesuit plate on the entire body? That way the vitals have significant resistance to heavy weapons, and the entire body is basically immune to small arms.
12 tokens seems ideal, since you're still getting much less than an assaultsuit. Maybe 13. 14 is crazy.
Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2:
Why would it need a handi roll to attach? It should just bolt on to a rail like any attachment.
All the parts it needs to consist of are two metal prongs, some wires, a trigger, insulation, a rail mounting, and a transformer. All pretty cheap stuff, 1 token max. Then add a small generator. 1-2 tokens? Total: 2-3 tokens? The only thing that should cost significant money is the generator.
The main reason I want it generator powered is so we don't have to keep track of and pay for two types of ammo for one weapon.
Effect:
In atmosphere: Your laser now shoots lightning. It fries any uninsulated electronics you shoot, and it fries any uninsulated people you shoot. Really good against people in vehicles or other ungrounded metal boxes, or in water. Might have a chance to arc to multiple people or electrocute them with a near miss.
In vaccuum: You have a taser bayonet.
In water: You die.
Does that seem fair? Remember this is an upgrade not a weapon, you still have to buy the laser to put it on.
Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton:
This is fine. Do note that, as with all heavy armor, the user's joints will be relatively vulnerable.
I stand by my price recomendation of 12-14 tokens. I agree that 12 is best, and 14 is extreme, but remember that this provides nearly as much armor as a mobility assaultsuit, and doesn't have any stat requirement. *suits got a 25% discount--5 tokens--purely because of the new requirement of +2 AUX.
Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2:
It requires a handi roll because it's vastly more complex to attach than a bayonet. Yes, it's relatively simple to attach a M9 bayonet to an M16, because both items were designed for each other. However, this is designed to attach to any laser rifle, all of which were made by different people with no standardization whatsoever; Here's a picture of both the standard lasrifle (top) and the FEL (bottom) (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/File:901.png). It's like making a bayonet that can attach to an M16, an AK47, or a QBZ95.
Also, the gungnir is much more complex than a simple bayonet. You have to mount the battery, a second trigger, a power selector, and the spark gap itself. And wire it properly. It can't really be just one piece that's bolted on in a few places due to the severe differences in our guns.
So yeah. Either it requires a handi roll, or you design it to work with only one thing. Or get the council to say it shouldn't need a handi roll for game reasons. *shrug*
AS TO THE MECHANICAL BITS...That's all fine. Note that if you want it generator powered, I say it costs three tokens, and requires time to recharge in between full-power shots, like the hand laser. Battery powered is two tokens, and can be used until the battery's dead.
And yes, I remember that this is an upgrade. Mentally, I'm adding two tokens to account for a las rifle, and comparing to a tesla saber.
Can I get my super battleplate put up for armory inclusion?
maybe call it warplate?
Sure, I'm fine with it. Talk to Nik and the Council.
Warplate sounds good.
PW said that the below designs "could work" a while back, but we didn't discuss pricing. Could I get a token estimate on both variants?Spoiler: Monosaw proposals (click to show/hide)
Hmm. Sabaton started playing as soon as I started reading your post. Fitting.
Radial Monosaw costs four or five tokens, leaning towards four.
Chain Monosaw... How long is it? If it's similar in length to the Monomachete, I'd say six tokens. It's a lot more complex.
...You might want to go with forcefields instead, since those are cheaper than monowires. Compare the monosword at 3t, to the monomachete at 4t. Also, FFs don't have the problem of being fragile wires, though that may be a lesser flaw than exploding when they break.
Those seem more like something someone crazy with too many tokens would order custom, or something someone would assemble after finding a large stash of monorazors and power tools. Not something to put in the armoury.
(I'm estimating 6 tokens for the radial saw and 10 for the chainsaw.)
I've been assuming this is obvious, but I'm giving mass-production prices. I.E. the price if it's in the armory. Custom stuff always costs more; the radial monosaw would cost 7t, and the chainsaw one would be... far too high. 10t sounds accurate.
It would make sense to have an electrolaser blaster rifle variant.
About the same price as blaster, shoots electricity rather than laser, doesn't work in vacuum, has a non-lethal mode.
Electroblaster?
That's pretty much what NAV's doing with his Gungnir update--it can be mounted to blasters. Unless you mean literally shooting just lightning, like the Tesla Arc. I'm not sure how you could do that without essentially making a lightning bomb. Not necessarily a bad idea if you're insulated...
What about a really high-power taser, for that matter?
Tasers are fine. If you want more than that, give me details. Pistol-shaped with barbs and wires? Handheld buzzer box? Zap gloves? We already have an electrostick.
Ooh I wanna get in on the monoblade market.
I've got two designs.
Number 1 is a halberd.
or more specifically a profesional high flex golf club with a heavy iron club head that contains the field projector.
It uses the immense G-forces generated by the flex of the shaft as the heavy iron weight snaps forward when swung, and the weight of the club head itself, to force the blade to cleave through whatever its swung at.
The second is a curved sword.
Basically this one is gonna be similar to a kilij.
Its got a blade that continues straight for two thirds of its length, the curves back at a 35° angle for the rest.
now behind this is gonna be a curved metal rod with a heavy metal bulb on the end reminiscent of one of those plastic tennis ball throwers.
it operates on the same principle as the weapon above.
I'd prefer you consolidate your posts. And by that I mean I might ignore all posts aside from the first, if multiposting gets common.
Halberd is 3t, +0 dex, +1/2(?) unc. Much easier to use than the sword since you have a very visible weight to hit the target with. Much easier to break, too, and can't do as much damage since it's harder to force the massive metal weight through the target.
I remember watching some videos of a guy just hacking a pig to pieces with a kilij. I dunno if he was just really strong or if the design helped out, but it was impressive all the same. 4t in any case, and has the same flaws/benefits as the halberd. Price increase is because you have to have multiple projectors to get that angle in the blade.
While I'm at it, I should also mention one of my first tinker ideas, the single-shot electroblaster bazooka. :P
Yeah, this would be so powerful you basically can't insulate yourself enough to survive. It's a bomb, really.
1a. What do planets currently do with their sewage, trash and industrial waste?
2a. So have the R&D guys figured out anything more about the God Modem?
2b. I mean beyond just making sexual harassment lions and mind control arms?
2c. What prototypes or basic widgets have they derived from it?
3a. Are throwing knives made out of pure Piezoelectric crystal UNCON? Because PW said they might be.
4a. From the aftermath of the Lurker's entrance, are there any electrical anomalies from things such as manip overloads?
5a. Can the 5 Second Reset have is time increased/decreased, changing how much battery each use requires?
5b. What happens to a human brain being carried by the user if it gets destroyed and is then reset?
5c. If you press it against someone and remotely activated it repeatedly, what happens?
5d. What if a mindless automaton uses it?
6a. Can a Pocket Dimension be given two Entrance/Exits?
6b. Can a Pocket Dimension have a dedicated Entrance in one location and a dedicated Exit in another?
7a. Is it possible to make a Matter Saver Woodchipper that quickly saves the matter it touches and ejects it in pieces?
7b. Can a Matter Saver be modified to that one end saves and the other end loads?
7c. Can a Pocket Dimension feed directly into a Matter Saver cartridge?
Thank you for the bullets!
1a.Currently? I imagine they're just dumping it wherever there's room, alongside the bodies. Most worlds probably recycled with matter conversion automanips, and after the Lurker... well, everything got a lot shittier.
2a.God Modem? What? Is that the God Computer? I'm not giving you free tech, at least not from that.
2b.^
2c.^
3a.Sure. Primarily because they're quite fragile, and break if you hold them wrong. "Armor-piercing frag grenades" is what I've called them before.
4a.I'm not exactly sure what you're asking? I don't think I can answer anyway.
5a.This is a Dangerous question. No.
5b.Exactly the same thing as happens to your brain when it gets destroyed and reset.
5c.Exactly the same thing as if they had activated it themselves. (͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)
5d.It isn't origin tech. Should function normally. Strangely, you can still suffer the deleterious effects overuse, despite not being within the activation radius. *hint hint*
6a.Judging by the last mission briefing, yes.
6b.^
7a.I don't know, maybe? Why?
7b.^
7c.Uh. I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds extremely dangerous. I invite you to try it yourself, though. You're in M26; you can afford it.
Well, since everyone is happily doing things, I guess I'll jump on this train as well. Been months since I tinkered...
For PIECEWISE:
- Could you please check your memory, consult your notes, and describe 1) Walking (Magister's?) Bastion, 2) High-Guard Armor, 3) Arbiter Cloak (not to be confused with Avatar Cloak) "cloth" armors?
Edit: Found the Shadow Walker cloak item description, removed from question.Spoiler: Source, for reference: (click to show/hide)
- Secondly, could you explain the tech behind the Avatar Cloak a bit? I.e., just enough handwavium so we could handwave along, not in-depth technical specs, of course.
FOR SYVARRIS:
(And yeah, no selective capitalization because the name looks better when uniform. Got that!)
- Sharksuit 1.5
Add a small layer of hexsand to the sharksuit as the innermost coating. It should be cheap enough (possibly remove the equal measure of sharkmist armor for economic and uniformity purposes) not to increase the cost while marginally increasing the survivability and protecting the user from "being fed upon by his own suit", should that ever happen.- Emergency wireline
The concept is simple: I want, with our modern ER tech applied (only as relevant), a big, long reel of wire (cable?) that could be used for communications. Because anomaly missions happen (I've had this concept in mind since M6, but M21 just notched it up further), as well as because sometimes there is also enemy interference to be considered (which also might be alien/anomalous in nature, so not as easily dealt with).
I want this wire strong, I want it capable of supporting all our communications (i.e. probably a bit more than just a few threads of copper wire), I want it lightweight (for transportation and for longer length of unsupported cable) - in that order of importance. Oh, and of course, first and foremost, I want it cheap - because this isn't just yesterday tech, this isn't even last millenium tech.
(This Tinker-project is for the wire/cable itself, but for the purposes of Tinkering, let's add a 1-token reel of it to this action - unless you think it could as well be completely free.)- MCP 1.1 (suit chassis)
Add:That's a long list, but all those things are dirt cheap or extremely cheap, so the intention is that it wouldn't change the price of our MCP-suits.
- magnetic clamps (MCP-II already has the non-magnetic ones, but MCP-I doesn't, and let's add the secondary system as well) - on feet and additional smaller on hands and on elbows
- small comms box for using the wire/cable described above with a small reel of said wire
- simple, cheap, basic thrusters (maybe ion, feeding off the suit generator, maybe gas ones, maybe regular advanced-fuel ones with just a tiny bit of fuel) - not enough for a jump on a surface of a planet, but just enough delta-v to offer some manoeuvring capability in open space
- rope harness with a reel of rope for space and ground operations (rope strengthened (a lot) & lightened (maybe) with tech, but, again, extremely cheap), complete with a number of swiveling hooks and other related equipment (notably, a pack of special clips for affixing the wire to the rope)
- proper utility belt for all the things and connectors and stuff (implied earlier, but now we need it explicitly) - the belt should be detachable (apart from the reels/connectors, of course)
(I feel that at this point I should just stop, but - bear with me, the next one is going to be extremely short and simple. And also, four is such a nice number!)- Milnoplate brain-casing
Take Milnoplate, adapt as an armoring add-on for robo-bodies - encase the braincase with it for drastically improved survivability. As simple as a Milnoplate helmet adapted for robo-bodies. Probably shouldn't even interfere with any armoring add-ons either.
I highly doubt PW still reads this thread. The entire purpose of having me run it is so that he can pretend it doesn't exist.
Also, I'm pretty sure he's said in the past that he doesn't even remember what most of those specific items are.
1.I let the ARMLongcoat have a layer of hexsand for free, so I suppose it's fair to give one to the sharksuit. You already know my thoughts on this, I imagine.
2.I'm pretty sure this could be free. We get forcefield containers for free, and other tools too. There's nothing inherently special about comms cables, unlike the AWaCCP. If it isn't free... how about a token per two hundred feet, and it's really good wire.
3.You get:
- comms box
- hooks and loops and such for attaching rope. Rope sold seperately, though it's probably free.
- Simple utility belt. Utilities sold seperately.
4.Yeah, one token. This is a really good idea and I have no idea why I never did it myself. It might interfere with some of the braincase mods though.
Why not me too?
Let's finalize Chem Thrower extra chems.
1. Doomsday, 10 uses canister.
2. Haebi acid, 10 uses canister. Perhaps separate one time purchase of 1 token forcefield tubing to prevent it melting the weapon?
1.I don't remember exactly how effective Doomsday is, and I don't feel like searching. I think it was like a megavirus or something?
2.Hmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 23, 2016, 10:12:23 pm
Quote
Hmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.Remember that tokens are not only a measure of resources needed to build something. They're also a measure of trust. Do you really want to give someone the ability to melt an Avatar of War for 3 tokens? And to make holes in almost anything for one token? Without suffering the results of a nuclear explosion?
If you feel like you need to justify the cost, say it's because the ammo canister is also armoured.
Irrelevant: I really liked your pun.
Post by: syvarris on January 23, 2016, 10:35:18 pm
I'm sort of split between pricing things based on balance, and on literal cost. I'm focusing more on the latter, since the council is the final word for balancing; it doesn't seem illogical for the acid to be inexpensive, and if it's OP, the price can be upped by the council. You have a good point about armoring the canister, though...
And... what pun? The quote contained none. Though I do find them fun.
Post by: Ozarck on January 23, 2016, 10:36:06 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 23, 2016, 10:40:59 pm
Similar to the Gungnir, yes, but as a complete weapon, so that it doesn't need a Handi roll to assemble.It would make sense to have an electrolaser blaster rifle variant.
About the same price as blaster, shoots electricity rather than laser, doesn't work in vacuum, has a non-lethal mode.
Electroblaster?
That's pretty much what NAV's doing with his Gungnir update--it can be mounted to blasters. Unless you mean literally shooting just lightning, like the Tesla Arc. I'm not sure how you could do that without essentially making a lightning bomb. Not necessarily a bad idea if you're insulated...While I'm at it, I should also mention one of my first tinker ideas, the single-shot electroblaster bazooka. :P
Yeah, this would be so powerful you basically can't insulate yourself enough to survive. It's a bomb, really.
And for both of these weapons, they have a very weak laser component, like the hand laser/red hand, not to deal damage, but to guide the electricity to it's target. Consequently, these are weapons for use in-atmosphere only.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 23, 2016, 10:43:48 pm
Anyway, with a design like that, could you ballpark the price for me?
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 23, 2016, 10:47:16 pm
Quote
No, wait, is that a pun? Maybe it's something else? Like when that CSI guy puts on his glasses and says "YEAAAAAH!"? I don't remember. Too tired.QuoteWhat do planets currently do with their sewage, trash and industrial waste?Currently? I imagine they're just dumping it wherever there's room, alongside the bodies. Most worlds probably recycled with matter conversion automanips, and after the Lurker... well, everything got a lot shittier.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 23, 2016, 10:48:42 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 23, 2016, 11:04:03 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 23, 2016, 11:38:08 pm
Post by: Empiricist on January 24, 2016, 12:22:01 am
Basically, can I arrange a Pocket Dimension Exit and Matter Saver Cartridge so that stuff that exits is immediately saved?7c. Can a Pocket Dimension feed directly into a Matter Saver cartridge?7c.Uh. I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds extremely dangerous. I invite you to try it yourself, though. You're in M26; you can afford it.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 24, 2016, 01:51:00 am
Ooh I wanna get in on the monoblade market.
I've got two designs.
Number 1 is a halberd.
or more specifically a profesional high flex golf club with a heavy iron club head that contains the field projector.
It uses the immense G-forces generated by the flex of the shaft as the heavy iron weight snaps forward when swung, and the weight of the club head itself, to force the blade to cleave through whatever its swung at.
The second is a curved sword.
Basically this one is gonna be similar to a kilij.
Its got a blade that continues straight for two thirds of its length, the curves back at a 35° angle for the rest.
now behind this is gonna be a curved metal rod with a heavy metal bulb on the end reminiscent of one of those plastic tennis ball throwers.
it operates on the same principle as the weapon above.
I'd prefer you consolidate your posts. And by that I mean I might ignore all posts aside from the first, if multiposting gets common.
Halberd is 3t, +0 dex, +1/2(?) unc. Much easier to use than the sword since you have a very visible weight to hit the target with. Much easier to break, too, and can't do as much damage since it's harder to force the massive metal weight through the target.
I remember watching some videos of a guy just hacking a pig to pieces with a kilij. I dunno if he was just really strong or if the design helped out, but it was impressive all the same. 4t in any case, and has the same flaws/benefits as the halberd. Price increase is because you have to have multiple projectors to get that angle in the blade.
yeah sorry about the segregation, ill try to reign that in.
Hmm... that doesnt seem right. The point of these weapons is to increase the damage dealt since they rely on user strength.
Halberd and Kilij modification
What if we projected the forceblade out of the front of the club heads, but have the two thirds or three quarters of the blades extending outward past them.
That way you just need to swing the club directly in front of your opponent and the weight doesnt get in the way of the cleaving action, but if they do get hit by it they still take some damage.
also is the second field emitter on the kilij really necessary? i thought the shape mimicked that of the anchor material.
okay dokey, at Nik's behest its time for more armor tinkering.
possibly for warplate inclusion, possibly standalone.
Idea #1, Heavy ablative armor.
okay the idea here is we take one of the heavy duty battle plate layers and replace it with hexbug lattice, not a hexbug plate.
Now this here anti-kinetic lattice should still be reasonably thick, not an aerogel nano-lattice, and we are gonna fill it with hexplate or hexsand or whatever we decided to call it.
this should allow for it to easily shrug off attacks from any single weapon type and remove the instant vulnerabilty to certain weapons we suffer when the arnors surface layer is breached.
idea #2, probably gonna need piecewise help on this one.
We have heat eating meta-crystals and stock battleplate layers that are specifically desinged to disperse heat over a wide area.
How effective would it be to line one of the lower layers of this material with a number of small cryotic crystals?
Alternatively, we have nigh unbreakable hexbug armor that melts faster than an australian icecream,
how effective would it be to stud it with cryotic crystals and place a metal sheet over the top of it that has high thermal resistance?
alternatively do we have any heatproof impact gel?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 24, 2016, 03:34:44 am
Why not me too?
Let's finalize Chem Thrower extra chems.
1. Doomsday, 10 uses canister.
2. Haebi acid, 10 uses canister. Perhaps separate one time purchase of 1 token forcefield tubing to prevent it melting the weapon?
1.I don't remember exactly how effective Doomsday is, and I don't feel like searching. I think it was like a megavirus or something?
2.Hmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.
Doomsday is liquid that liquefies organic matter on contact. It is listed on armory, you lazy bastard, but it was never used. Anyway, quote from Limbo:
Noticing business set up by Eddie Ulrich establishes competing business line: Meditation. Less you move, less our precious and limited resources you are burning. More you train your mind, better you can resist immaterial alien reproductive organs being forcefully inserted into your brain.You would basically spray it in a sort of fluid or mist but would turn to gas fairly quickly. Depends on the volume of the canister
While I meditate I think about expanding ammo variety for Universal Chem Thrower.
- Doomsday (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#Doomsday). Is this gaseous or liquid substance? If fitted for standard thrower canister would it still be 1 token per canister?
- The Ram (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#.22The_Ram.22). Likewise price check. Does this thing need special strength canisters?
- Gauss Rifle seems to have "melter" rounds. "Filled with nasty chemichals, this will ruin the day of everyone not wearing chem-off." Is this viable for chem thrower?
- Likewise "Vit-O-Phage", Armory Master's mystery coctail of horrible death. What type of chemical is used there?
- Haebi acid, should we be able to produce it by now or in near future.
It would need a special coating, but thats it. Again, volume of the canister.
Eh, it would basically be the same thing as ram.
I forget.
Yes. Please speak to the nearest man with a haebi arm for an unlimited supply.
If he asks you to jerk his arm off, he may be unreliable.
How about using chem-off to protect against acid instead of forcefields?
Post by: Nikitian on January 24, 2016, 07:47:01 am
I assume that my questions were also included in the pm, so I will wait for its results as well. Mostly because it'd give both you and me the OOC GenKnow basis for working with the designs to come.
Anyway, then I'll assume Sharksuit 1.5 and Milno-plate brain-casing (right, interference with braincase modifications, as usual) are finalised, and ask the Council on the matter of Emergency Wireline price (free or not free) and MCP 1.1 chassis upgrade price (whether or not those other things qualify as free).
In loving memory of Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis. Sleep peacefully, my dear Queen of VR addicts.
- Brisant-compatibility
Take Hand Cannon ammo types.Take Arranger ammo types.Take gauss rifle special ammo types (G-shells mostly - whatever are left in the stocks, but also Organgrinders and other appropriate stuff). Take all the assorted grenades in the armory that aren't Brisant-compatible.
Make them Brisant-compatible.
(For reference, Brisant's calibre is40mm50mm, just checked.) - Brisant 1.5 & variants
First, let's revamp the Brisant slightly with the modern tech advances. I am aiming at bringing the price down to 2 tokens or, if impossible, slightly upgrading the capabilities without increasing the cost. So: advanced generators (yeah, we do have them) for cheaper energy supply; hexplate (hexsand?) barrel coating for decreased barrel/coil wear from heat and friction (and possibly better precision); cheaper wiring/capacitors; anything else you, Tinker assistance or my character can think of but I cannot (by all means, roll Intelligence, if you wish).
Second, firing approaches: Let's settle this question once and for all. Make two Brisant variants available: One with a bipod and slightly longer barrel (for greater precision; I believe this is how the original Brisant was meant to be), one more "cut down"/"carbine" variant that has a bit less precision, but can be more easily fired on the move/from the hip/etc. Both are intended to have identical price of 2-tokens (if the first paragraph succeeded).
(Per discussion.)
Oh, and let's throw in the timer/explosion delay function into the gun/grenade controls. The grenades already have enough the electronics, the matter is about adding a few more buttons and several lines of code. - Antimatter dawn
What's with trapping antimatter? I assume ER tech knows how to do that, and can do so cheaply (well, far more cheaply than us)?
(Consider utilizing the super-conductive materials we have discovered, for example, or stuff like that. Or wait, just forcefields should work too, though not sure how cheap that would be, compared to other approaches.)
IF it can be used (and I don't see reasons why it cannot, given the advanced ER state), let's consider its use for:
Propulsion (by tiny microblasts)
Large-scale explosives (cheaper, bigger and badder "nukes")
Small-scale explosives (extra-powerful grenades and explosive ammo) - Grenade fun
Let's tinker some new Brisant grenades, shall we?..
(Note that, by tradition, grenades are sold in 3-packs, so if relevant, please consider the split-token effective price this convention enables - i.e. 1/3, 2/3, 4/3 etc.)- Crystalline Frag grenade, designed to detonate and spray everything with crystal-seeds in the radius. Note that apparently it can already push out the crystal-seeds somehow, or "explode" into fragments on occasion, so this might be as easy as slightly modifying the magazine of the weapon.
(Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack.) - EMP grenade 2.0 - Upgraded with the modern tech advances, including the blueshard power supply (which should cut the cost drastically).
(Aiming for somewhere between 1-token grenade and default 1-token 3-pack) - PSL AP Frag grenade, since you mentioned it yourself.
(No idea about the price.) - Antimatter grenades - (if the tech is available, per above point) in two variants: "Hey, Not Too Rough" 0,1 mcg payload; "Ultra-violence" 11 mcg payload. Probably contained in other ways than magnetic chamber, because of the gauss propulsion of Brisant - unless it can be circumvented somehow (I don't know, would Faraday Cage even work here? Maybe a specialised variant?..).
(No idea about the price, but please do refer to its production cost, not its "balanced price". We have the Council for that. First and foremost I want to know if it is even economically viable.) - Spray bomb B-type - take Doomsday/Organgrinder/Vit-O-Phage, put under (some) pressure, rig the container with a little explosives for better spread. Bonus points if using the force fields is economical here.
(Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack or 2-token 3-pack) - Spray bomb N-type - same as above, but put the Ram inside instead. N for Necrochemistry, of course.
- Spray bomb P-type - same as above, but put the Haebi acid inside instead. Will likely require forcefields, so greater price, but also greater destruction.
- Gas bombs - same general design as above, but adapt for gaseous substances instead. For a test variant, let's go with paralysis gas (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Paralysis_Gas_Canisters).
- Crystalline Frag grenade, designed to detonate and spray everything with crystal-seeds in the radius. Note that apparently it can already push out the crystal-seeds somehow, or "explode" into fragments on occasion, so this might be as easy as slightly modifying the magazine of the weapon.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 24, 2016, 08:06:13 am
perhaps I should tinker up some pure forcefield rounds of differing price and volatility?
Post by: Nikitian on January 24, 2016, 08:23:41 am
Yeah, because if that's the weapon our scientific advancement have thrust into our hands, I would rather have it be used as much as possible. Remember, item prices don't affect just the player characters, they are also vaguely relevant to how much it costs to arm an NPC trooper. As such, I do want the very best weapons for our footsoldiers.QuoteHmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.Remember that tokens are not only a measure of resources needed to build something. They're also a measure of trust. Do you really want to give someone the ability to melt an Avatar of War for 3 tokens? And to make holes in almost anything for one token? Without suffering the results of a nuclear explosion?
(But, for the record, I support the notion of armoring the canister. Just in case. And because we know who is going to use it. :P
And, honestly, Haebi-acid is not that all-destroying. I mean, if we clad our Avatars in forcefield armor, they would be invulnerable to it - as probably are quite a few alien entities out there. No need to complicate things beyond what they are.)
Why dont you use a forcefield to contain your antimatter?I, uh, list that as one of the options, I believe?.. In the dedicated antimatter tinkering section.
forcefields are not made of matter.
They also have this brilliant side effect of being highly explosive in their own right.
perhaps I should tinker up some pure forcefield rounds of differing price and volatility?
As for forcefield explosives - the problem with them is that regular explosives are simply more efficient/economical (the idea was brought early on). It's when the "containment" part gets added to the equation that they begin to rival mere conventional explosives.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 24, 2016, 08:34:11 am
didnt read it the first time, just saw non magnetic containment in the grenade section.
still, forcefield nukes could have other tactical applications that make up for the reduced yield.
like say... pencil thin super armor piercing rounds?
for busting through battleplate and the like.
also the yield is governed by the material I I recall,
so you could theoretically buy a super weak material that grants extraordinary yield pretty cheaply, it just wouldnt be a very large field.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 24, 2016, 09:40:34 am
Also not agreeing with the second argument. Just because some aliens are invincible doesn't mean our weapons should cost nothing. Just because protection is available from a weapon with a single form of armor (two if Chem-off does anything to it) doesn't make them any less potent to other kind of armor. I mean, look at hexplate. It eats lasers and plasma. Do we have any avatar-sized cutting lasers available for 6 tokens?
I'm not saying it should be 20 tokens a can or something. After all, it might be powerful, but it has a worse range than the plasma projector. But I think it could stand to be a token or two more expensive. You know, a price that makes it something more special, not something you'd waste like it's nothing.
Also:
Quote
Take Hand Cannon ammo types. Take Arranger ammo types. Take gauss rifle special ammo types (G-shells mostly - whatever are left in the stocks, but also Organgrinders and other appropriate stuff). Take all the assorted grenades in the armory that aren't Brisant-compatible.While I agree with the rest of this idea (having some sort of unified ammo type list that only changes its size) I'm pretty sure you can't do that with the arranger. The arranger doesn't fire bullets. It's more like a magic wand. It rearranges the matter in the cartridge so that it projects an effect. To make t the casing Brittany compatible, you'd have to modify the Brisant and every other weapon to be able to rearrange the matter in them and contain whatever effect they unleash. Or make the arranger bullets self-contained, which would make the arranger useless and the casings more expensive (although they would make for some fun grenades. At least, that's how I understand it.
Make them Brisant-compatible.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 24, 2016, 09:46:11 am
Post by: Nikitian on January 24, 2016, 10:18:44 am
And I don't have anything against increasing the cost a token or two (in theory) - that's exactly the role of the Council, after all, if I understand it correctly. I am just against giving it an unrealistically high price just because it is that good (and then sticking to that price as the real "production cost" price, which is how the system currently works).
If there was an alternative system, where the production cost was decoupled from the market item price, and actually known and referenced (and the item price might be reviewed afterwards, with real the production cost in mind and in light of other new Armory additions) - such opposition would be unnecessary. But, as currently the link between the "production cost" and "item price" is inviolable and regularly quoted upon (when, say, similar items are designed), concerns about preserving the price close to the production cost need to be voiced to ensure the system works properly.
(If you wish to continue this discussion, I am open to it, but I'd suggest we move it to the Hephaestus OOC thread.)
Post by: NAV on January 24, 2016, 12:15:36 pm
We should give all our deathtubes a standardized rail system as part of the armory cleanup.
More stuff ready for Council!
Spoiler: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2 (click to show/hide)
Other finished designs, just keeping them in one post.
Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dragoncoat (click to show/hide)
EDIT:
Brain Preservation Suit Upgrade
I was looking through the armory and found this, designed by the Armory Master:
Quote
Brain Box.Now we have no idea how big is "rather large", and we have no idea how much it costs.
Description: A rather large machine designed to hold a severed head and keep it preserved and ready for reanimation. Requires head to be hooked up to feed of chemicals and submerged in biogel. Machine is very heavy and large, technically portable but also fairly fragile.
I want to try miniaturizing it using our modern ARM technology, and building it into a suit. Not as a full suit, but as a replacement helmet/backpack thing to add to MK/MCP suits.
Effect: You don't lose stat points on tempdeath, at least not from regular tempdeath. Things like brain melting soundwaves will still cause stat loss.
Your brain won't go bad and become permadead after a few hours.
Post by: piecewise on January 24, 2016, 03:48:37 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on January 24, 2016, 04:31:10 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 24, 2016, 04:49:03 pm
Post by: renegadelobster on January 24, 2016, 05:00:36 pm
Post by: Xantalos on January 24, 2016, 08:00:46 pm
Post by: Empiricist on January 24, 2016, 08:02:02 pm
Maybe a defensive thing that amplifies the user's sex appeal to the point where people have to roll willpower against your charisma to attack you?I definitely want that for Charles!
Post by: Xantalos on January 24, 2016, 08:09:49 pm
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 24, 2016, 08:28:41 pm
Yeah, you could say it was based off of the distracting ball thing.Its called sticking the bauble in the pill machine.
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
if they fail the roll they want to own you, not kill you.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 24, 2016, 09:55:39 pm
Perfect for PvP.Yeah, you could say it was based off of the distracting ball thing.Its called sticking the bauble in the pill machine.
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
if they fail the roll they want to own you, not kill you.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 24, 2016, 10:25:23 pm
you know I was gonna make a joke about an alternative method to make this...Perfect for PvP.Yeah, you could say it was based off of the distracting ball thing.Its called sticking the bauble in the pill machine.
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
if they fail the roll they want to own you, not kill you.
But its rather sexist and involves something thats probably a considered A criminal offense in the more civilised parts of the world.
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on January 25, 2016, 01:44:36 am
...
I'm not really sure how force fields work in ER, to be honest, and there's not much that I can find on the wiki about them. How much would forcefield variants of the Monosaws cost, and technologically, what would that entail?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 25, 2016, 02:46:48 am
+1 to testicle baubles.http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Materials#Forcefield
...
I'm not really sure how force fields work in ER, to be honest, and there's not much that I can find on the wiki about them. How much would forcefield variants of the Monosaws cost, and technologically, what would that entail?
http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Monosword
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 25, 2016, 05:39:37 am
Yeah, you could say it was based off of the distracting ball thing.Ah, so I guess we'll change the ARMy men uniform into something that includes kilts?
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
Post by: Ozarck on January 25, 2016, 08:32:28 am
Problem with making it a pill: you have to roll will against a constant autosexual desire. All of Elizas' sexual drive turned inward.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 25, 2016, 08:45:26 am
cant be affected if you arent actually seeing it.
Post by: Nikitian on January 25, 2016, 09:34:48 am
Batchip.Also, Mad Hatter, of course. It's whole point is to have visuals of things without actually "seeing" them in the magic-related way.
cant be affected if you arent actually seeing it.
U_P, would you be interested in adding your batchip design to the updated Mad Hatter? Perhaps I could even find a token (or two, but less likely - I'm broke) somewhere to smooth over the matter.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 25, 2016, 09:47:51 am
Batchip is now magically available for mad hatter use.
now to go spend my token before ive even recieved it.
Post by: Caellath on January 25, 2016, 03:56:37 pm
Spoiler: Electrically-Powered Flight Pack (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 25, 2016, 03:57:09 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Could you run this?
I think it can work but I'm just saying that if something goes wrong it's gonna go very wrong. Nuclear reactor style: You can make it as safe as you possibly can, but at the end of the day you're still working with inherently dangerous materials.
That depends. the machine transports a certain volume of matter, so density matters. 10,000 sponge cakes vs 100 bars of lead.
Worry about that latter, or more than likely, hash it out with sy and come to me with specific problems neither of you know how to fix.
So then, you up for it, syvvy-kun?
Post by: syvarris on January 25, 2016, 06:11:50 pm
So what do I do now? Contract the council about creating Gauss Canon equivalents for arranger? Contact the council about balancing arranger bullets like Gauss rifle bullets? Make up things and say how much I think they would cost? I need to know, quick! I need more guns to continue my transformation to mech warrior.QuoteHmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.Remember that tokens are not only a measure of resources needed to build something. They're also a measure of trust. Do you really want to give someone the ability to melt an Avatar of War for 3 tokens? And to make holes in almost anything for one token? Without suffering the results of a nuclear explosion?
If you feel like you need to justify the cost, say it's because the ammo canister is also armoured.
Irrelevant: I really liked your pun.
As to the arrranger bullets, that's magic, and I don't know how magic works or if there's supposed to be limitations. Ask PW if I can just hand you magic bullets and a price.
As to the acid cost, I've thought about it more, and I still think it's fair. For three tokens, one can buy the gun and have enough sticky goop to disable a battlesuit at short range (with a bit of luck). Add another two, for the barrel, and they can have acid to actually finish it off. Yes, it's powerful, but it's powerful for a logical reason and I've always been in favor of that.
While the armoring is a decent idea, I forsee it being abused by people asking for refills. I think it would be better for the ammunition itself to just cost two tokens, if the council decides it's too cheap.
Similar to the Gungnir, yes, but as a complete weapon, so that it doesn't need a Handi roll to assemble.It would make sense to have an electrolaser blaster rifle variant.
About the same price as blaster, shoots electricity rather than laser, doesn't work in vacuum, has a non-lethal mode.
Electroblaster?
That's pretty much what NAV's doing with his Gungnir update--it can be mounted to blasters. Unless you mean literally shooting just lightning, like the Tesla Arc. I'm not sure how you could do that without essentially making a lightning bomb. Not necessarily a bad idea if you're insulated...While I'm at it, I should also mention one of my first tinker ideas, the single-shot electroblaster bazooka. :P
Yeah, this would be so powerful you basically can't insulate yourself enough to survive. It's a bomb, really.
And for both of these weapons, they have a very weak laser component, like the hand laser/red hand, not to deal damage, but to guide the electricity to it's target. Consequently, these are weapons for use in-atmosphere only.
Oh, hmm. HRM.
Okay, so, this seems like something very likely to get nerfed by the council. 3t for a laser rifle with a power equal to a hand laser, and tesla-saber level shocking. Battery powered.
Completely useless against insulated foes, nearly useless out of atmosphere, but very very good when neither of those are problems.
Hey, I appreciate you pointing out potential problems, and I realise it's a problem for the Weevil degenerators, but I don't really know how to fix that problem.
Anyway, with a design like that, could you ballpark the price for me?
How big a tarp do you want? I don't remember you specifying.
I'll assume it's seven feet by four feet, as that would be a comfortable walkway even for our more heavily armored troops. I'll very loosely say 4t, because you can split it into smaller sections, and weevils are probably expensive. That gets you one 3.5'x2' crawlspace per token.
Basically, can I arrange a Pocket Dimension Exit and Matter Saver Cartridge so that stuff that exits is immediately saved?7c. Can a Pocket Dimension feed directly into a Matter Saver cartridge?7c.Uh. I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds extremely dangerous. I invite you to try it yourself, though. You're in M26; you can afford it.
Ask PW. I don't know how the Matter Saver works.
Ooh I wanna get in on the monoblade market.
I've got two designs.
Number 1 is a halberd.
or more specifically a profesional high flex golf club with a heavy iron club head that contains the field projector.
It uses the immense G-forces generated by the flex of the shaft as the heavy iron weight snaps forward when swung, and the weight of the club head itself, to force the blade to cleave through whatever its swung at.
The second is a curved sword.
Basically this one is gonna be similar to a kilij.
Its got a blade that continues straight for two thirds of its length, the curves back at a 35° angle for the rest.
now behind this is gonna be a curved metal rod with a heavy metal bulb on the end reminiscent of one of those plastic tennis ball throwers.
it operates on the same principle as the weapon above.
I'd prefer you consolidate your posts. And by that I mean I might ignore all posts aside from the first, if multiposting gets common.
Halberd is 3t, +0 dex, +1/2(?) unc. Much easier to use than the sword since you have a very visible weight to hit the target with. Much easier to break, too, and can't do as much damage since it's harder to force the massive metal weight through the target.
I remember watching some videos of a guy just hacking a pig to pieces with a kilij. I dunno if he was just really strong or if the design helped out, but it was impressive all the same. 4t in any case, and has the same flaws/benefits as the halberd. Price increase is because you have to have multiple projectors to get that angle in the blade.
yeah sorry about the segregation, ill try to reign that in.
Hmm... that doesnt seem right. The point of these weapons is to increase the damage dealt since they rely on user strength.
Halberd and Kilij modification
What if we projected the forceblade out of the front of the club heads, but have the two thirds or three quarters of the blades extending outward past them.
That way you just need to swing the club directly in front of your opponent and the weight doesnt get in the way of the cleaving action, but if they do get hit by it they still take some damage.
also is the second field emitter on the kilij really necessary? i thought the shape mimicked that of the anchor material.
okay dokey, at Nik's behest its time for more armor tinkering.
possibly for warplate inclusion, possibly standalone.
Idea #1, Heavy ablative armor.
okay the idea here is we take one of the heavy duty battle plate layers and replace it with hexbug lattice, not a hexbug plate.
Now this here anti-kinetic lattice should still be reasonably thick, not an aerogel nano-lattice, and we are gonna fill it with hexplate or hexsand or whatever we decided to call it.
this should allow for it to easily shrug off attacks from any single weapon type and remove the instant vulnerabilty to certain weapons we suffer when the arnors surface layer is breached.
idea #2, probably gonna need piecewise help on this one.
We have heat eating meta-crystals and stock battleplate layers that are specifically desinged to disperse heat over a wide area.
How effective would it be to line one of the lower layers of this material with a number of small cryotic crystals?
Alternatively, we have nigh unbreakable hexbug armor that melts faster than an australian icecream,
how effective would it be to stud it with cryotic crystals and place a metal sheet over the top of it that has high thermal resistance?
alternatively do we have any heatproof impact gel?
Let me clarify--these weapons would do more damage than the regular forceblade, when wielded by normal humans, or wielded against very tough enemies. Remember that guy who attacked Renen? He would have done more damage if he had a force halberd, because the heavy weight would have added more energy to the blow. However, if Renen had a force halberd, he would have had more difficulty doing what he did, because the halberd's projector wouldn't slide neatly through Iveson's head. Renen doesn't need the heft, so it's only a disadvantage to him.
True monoblades have a higher cap to their damage, because they don't need to make much room for themselves. Your weapons have a lower cap, but are easier to do damage with when operating within that cap. Understand?
Moving the weight towards the hilt would help with that issue, though it would also mean the weight doesn't help as much with the cleaving action. I'm pretty sure it would also make the kilij into a regular scimitar, since the entire point is to have weight at the tip.
((Please bullet your questions. It makes it easier for me to answer them.)
As the kilij's emitter, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. It could work if the forcefield projector follows behind the entire length of the blade, but you're not reducing total mass spent in projectors, which is the issue.
But eh. I'll let you have the kilij for 3t, because I'm supposed to let people have fun, and because I haven't exactly made it easy for other people to learn how FFs work.
Heavy ablative armor:
I think this might be something PW is supposed to answer? It's material science, at least. Eh.
Making hexbug into a lattice will significantly reduce its kinetic resistance. It'll be heavier for the same degree of resistance, even before accounting for the hexsand. The hexsand will help with energy weapons, but will lose a significant degree of energy resistance because it is spread out.
I think the final result would be very resistant to kinetic small arms, with lasers and such relatively easily melting around the hexsand strands. So, better than warplate against kinetics, but worse against energy weapons (but much thinner, if not lighter). This is because hexbug is very easily melted, whereas the metal in BS plate--aside from the reflective fibers--is more resistant to heat.
That being said, we're very much getting into how I think things work, which is not necessarily how things really work. Maybe hexbug is actually more heat resistant by cost than base BS plate metal, and the fiber/lattice system is more effective than I give it credit for. *shrug*.
Cryotic
Excessively effective, but very very expensive. IIRC, those rods were expensive, and had a relatively short range, so you'd need to line the armor with them all over the place. Furthermore, the rods would make things necessarily very bulky, which would prevent you from using this strategy near the joints and hands.
Still, your main body would basically have true immunity to any sort of heat based weapon, which is half of them. You'd also be able to tank a nuke pretty well, better than even FFs.
Get a price on one of those rods, and I'll give you a price for a full layer of armor.
Why not me too?
Let's finalize Chem Thrower extra chems.
1. Doomsday, 10 uses canister.
2. Haebi acid, 10 uses canister. Perhaps separate one time purchase of 1 token forcefield tubing to prevent it melting the weapon?
1.I don't remember exactly how effective Doomsday is, and I don't feel like searching. I think it was like a megavirus or something?
2.Hmm. We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive. 1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive. Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.
Doomsday is liquid that liquefies organic matter on contact. It is listed on armory, you lazy bastard, but it was never used. Anyway, quote from Limbo:Noticing business set up by Eddie Ulrich establishes competing business line: Meditation. Less you move, less our precious and limited resources you are burning. More you train your mind, better you can resist immaterial alien reproductive organs being forcefully inserted into your brain.You would basically spray it in a sort of fluid or mist but would turn to gas fairly quickly. Depends on the volume of the canister
While I meditate I think about expanding ammo variety for Universal Chem Thrower.
- Doomsday (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#Doomsday). Is this gaseous or liquid substance? If fitted for standard thrower canister would it still be 1 token per canister?
- The Ram (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#.22The_Ram.22). Likewise price check. Does this thing need special strength canisters?
- Gauss Rifle seems to have "melter" rounds. "Filled with nasty chemichals, this will ruin the day of everyone not wearing chem-off." Is this viable for chem thrower?
- Likewise "Vit-O-Phage", Armory Master's mystery coctail of horrible death. What type of chemical is used there?
- Haebi acid, should we be able to produce it by now or in near future.
It would need a special coating, but thats it. Again, volume of the canister.
Eh, it would basically be the same thing as ram.
I forget.
Yes. Please speak to the nearest man with a haebi arm for an unlimited supply.
If he asks you to jerk his arm off, he may be unreliable.
How about using chem-off to protect against acid instead of forcefields?
Doomsday:
One token. The current armory entry has 2.6 gallons to the token, which might be far more or far less than the UCT's 10 units per canister. Balance wise, I don't see how this is any more powerful than namite or haebi acid anyway. Even Mk.Is act as perfect armor.
Chem-Off:
Nyyeeh. I'm not entirely certain chem-off's good enough for haebi acid. If it is, 1t, and no explosions. The council's gonna up that for sure, though.
@syvarris Yeah, I think going for the "costs" price is the best approach here. The Council is out there for balancing anyway, and Piecewise's main function in pricing was to provide the base cost price (which could be further tweaked a little, but not too much). "God help us, it's a cheap and distressingly effective weapon" was said for a reason, after all. ;)
I assume that my questions were also included in the pm, so I will wait for its results as well. Mostly because it'd give both you and me the OOC GenKnow basis for working with the designs to come.
Anyway, then I'll assume Sharksuit 1.5 and Milno-plate brain-casing (right, interference with braincase modifications, as usual) are finalised, and ask the Council on the matter of Emergency Wireline price (free or not free) and MCP 1.1 chassis upgrade price (whether or not those other things qualify as free).
In loving memory of Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis. Sleep peacefully, my dear Queen of VR addicts.
- Brisant-compatibility
Take Hand Cannon ammo types.Take Arranger ammo types.Take gauss rifle special ammo types (G-shells mostly - whatever are left in the stocks, but also Organgrinders and other appropriate stuff). Take all the assorted grenades in the armory that aren't Brisant-compatible.
Make them Brisant-compatible.
(For reference, Brisant's calibre is40mm50mm, just checked.)- Brisant 1.5 & variants
First, let's revamp the Brisant slightly with the modern tech advances. I am aiming at bringing the price down to 2 tokens or, if impossible, slightly upgrading the capabilities without increasing the cost. So: advanced generators (yeah, we do have them) for cheaper energy supply; hexplate (hexsand?) barrel coating for decreased barrel/coil wear from heat and friction (and possibly better precision); cheaper wiring/capacitors; anything else you, Tinker assistance or my character can think of but I cannot (by all means, roll Intelligence, if you wish).
Second, firing approaches: Let's settle this question once and for all. Make two Brisant variants available: One with a bipod and slightly longer barrel (for greater precision; I believe this is how the original Brisant was meant to be), one more "cut down"/"carbine" variant that has a bit less precision, but can be more easily fired on the move/from the hip/etc. Both are intended to have identical price of 2-tokens (if the first paragraph succeeded).
(Per discussion.)
Oh, and let's throw in the timer/explosion delay function into the gun/grenade controls. The grenades already have enough the electronics, the matter is about adding a few more buttons and several lines of code.- Antimatter dawn
What's with trapping antimatter? I assume ER tech knows how to do that, and can do so cheaply (well, far more cheaply than us)?
(Consider utilizing the super-conductive materials we have discovered, for example, or stuff like that. Or wait, just forcefields should work too, though not sure how cheap that would be, compared to other approaches.)
IF it can be used (and I don't see reasons why it cannot, given the advanced ER state), let's consider its use for:
Propulsion (by tiny microblasts)
Large-scale explosives (cheaper, bigger and badder "nukes")
Small-scale explosives (extra-powerful grenades and explosive ammo)- Grenade fun
Let's tinker some new Brisant grenades, shall we?..
(Note that, by tradition, grenades are sold in 3-packs, so if relevant, please consider the split-token effective price this convention enables - i.e. 1/3, 2/3, 4/3 etc.)(Aoshima, great thanks for all the chemicals links!)
- Crystalline Frag grenade, designed to detonate and spray everything with crystal-seeds in the radius. Note that apparently it can already push out the crystal-seeds somehow, or "explode" into fragments on occasion, so this might be as easy as slightly modifying the magazine of the weapon.
(Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack.)- EMP grenade 2.0 - Upgraded with the modern tech advances, including the blueshard power supply (which should cut the cost drastically).
(Aiming for somewhere between 1-token grenade and default 1-token 3-pack)- PSL AP Frag grenade, since you mentioned it yourself.
(No idea about the price.)- Antimatter grenades - (if the tech is available, per above point) in two variants: "Hey, Not Too Rough" 0,1 mcg payload; "Ultra-violence" 11 mcg payload. Probably contained in other ways than magnetic chamber, because of the gauss propulsion of Brisant - unless it can be circumvented somehow (I don't know, would Faraday Cage even work here? Maybe a specialised variant?..).
(No idea about the price, but please do refer to its production cost, not its "balanced price". We have the Council for that. First and foremost I want to know if it is even economically viable.)- Spray bomb B-type - take Doomsday/Organgrinder/Vit-O-Phage, put under (some) pressure, rig the container with a little explosives for better spread. Bonus points if using the force fields is economical here.
(Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack or 2-token 3-pack)- Spray bomb N-type - same as above, but put the Ram inside instead. N for Necrochemistry, of course.
- Spray bomb P-type - same as above, but put the Haebi acid inside instead. Will likely require forcefields, so greater price, but also greater destruction.
- Gas bombs - same general design as above, but adapt for gaseous substances instead. For a test variant, let's go with paralysis gas (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Paralysis_Gas_Canisters).
1.Done. Unless the council complains.
2.I don't like handing out arbitrary upgrades like "better generators" unless we have a reason for the generators to be better. So the Brisant is stuck at 3 tokens unless you can name some non-arbitrary tech which would cut costs.
2.1.You can make a more accurate bipod variant, but it costs an extra token if you want any meaningful change. Cut-down carbine version (for 3t) is fine, though it'll have reduced power of course.
2.2.Timer/Explosion delay controls being added to the gun is fine.
3.FFs should trap antimatter fine. Should be pretty cheap, since small amounts of trapped antimatter are still extremely useful. All your suggested uses are fine, but I want you to go talk with PW before you start actually utilizing AM.
4.1.I like the idea, but I don't know how those crystals work exactly, so talk to PW.
4.2.2t for 3-pack.
4.3.1t for 6-pack. I checked my old tests with actual crystal frags, and the tradeoff you get compared to actual frags is that, while the shards maintain exceptional lethality out to a good distance, there aren't many individual shards which form; You could stand ten feet away and be missed entirely, or stand a hundred feet away and have one penetrate your helmet.
4.4.See 3. FFs should be fine containment, since the tiny amount of antimatter you need to contain means you don't need a lot of projecting mass.
4.5.1t for three. You know that Maurice's name will be on these in-universe, right?
4.6.1t for three. Behaves similarly to ClF3 grenades.
4.7.Hmm. I'm unsure how haebi acid compares to Ram. Go ask PW.
4.8.Paralysis gas? 1t for four. More expensive than those canisters because these grenades are fairly complex. Also, Doomsday apparently prefers to be a gas, so you already have a gas grenade type.
As for forcefield explosives - the problem with them is that regular explosives are simply more efficient/economical (the idea was brought early on). It's when the "containment" part gets added to the equation that they begin to rival mere conventional explosives.
Actually, this isn't quite true, because PW contradicted himself to some degree. The strongest FF we can make has a yield of ~.7 kilotons per pound. Standard nuclear bombs cost 7t for a kiloton, and are quite heavy and bulky. IIRC, of course, but I checked this stuff fairly recently. I was gonna make use of this excessive yield with micro FF bullets, but I don't even know if I can tinker anymore.
Hey, Syv, assuming you get the answer you're waiting for from piecewise, could you give me an estimate about what you think a good price for battlesuit sized arranger, battlesuit sized light shield and battlesuit sized light sphere projector? I'm especially interested in those last two. I think they could have very interesting uses that fit with my playstyle.
I got the answer I was waiting for, and that answer is the poke thread. I can't give you a price for a BS-sized arranger or light projector.
@Aoshi: You can try lining the barrel with Chem-Off. It won't explode, and might be cheaper.
We should give all our deathtubes a standardized rail system as part of the armory cleanup.
More stuff ready for Council!Spoiler: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2 (click to show/hide)
Other finished designs, just keeping them in one post.Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dragoncoat (click to show/hide)
EDIT:
Brain Preservation Suit Upgrade
I was looking through the armory and found this, designed by the Armory Master:QuoteBrain Box.Now we have no idea how big is "rather large", and we have no idea how much it costs.
Description: A rather large machine designed to hold a severed head and keep it preserved and ready for reanimation. Requires head to be hooked up to feed of chemicals and submerged in biogel. Machine is very heavy and large, technically portable but also fairly fragile.
I want to try miniaturizing it using our modern ARM technology, and building it into a suit. Not as a full suit, but as a replacement helmet/backpack thing to add to MK/MCP suits.
Effect: You don't lose stat points on tempdeath, at least not from regular tempdeath. Things like brain melting soundwaves will still cause stat loss.
Your brain won't go bad and become permadead after a few hours.
I would not be opposed to a standardized rail system.
The brain preservation thing... What do you mean by building it into a suit? Does it operate like the brain box, and a medic wears it around until it's needed? If so, 2t if it works on full heads, 1t if it works on just brains (and requires a med roll to seperate the brain). The patient might still lose statpoints if the medic takes awhile to get the head into the device.
If you mean that it's something which works on the wearer... I'm not sure how that would function. Could you explain it in more detail?
Would it be possible to make something like the CASIE implant from Deus Ex:HR? It uses pheromones or some other handwavey thing to help influence people. Say, two versions, one for squishy people, that uses their body to slowly replenish its "charges" and another for robutts that can only be refilled on ship. Something to help us that may or may not of dumped CHA to -2 be gooder with talkings at people. Say it has 2 or 3 charges before it must be refilled
Handwavey things can't be answered by me. Ask PW.
Yeah, you could say it was based off of the distracting ball thing.
...
I'm gonna make it formal so I get money if anyone buys it.
Sex Appeal Enhancer
Based off of the distraction ball thing, this piece of equipment (which may or may not be a bunch of really small baubles superglued to the user's genitals) raises the user's sex appeal to the point where it forces an attacker to roll willpower vs the user's charisma to actually attack him. This only applies to those who actually notice the device, of course.
Anyone wanna help me make this feasible?
And then see what happens when a person with -2 cha wears it?
Okay... The bauble says nothing about making people think better of anything, let alone the holder. In fact, the bauble's description says it might make people try to obtain the bauble for themselves. When obtaining an object, people tend to seperate that object from its previous owner.
Are you sure you want to superglue this thing to your genitals?
+1 to testicle baubles.
...
I'm not really sure how force fields work in ER, to be honest, and there's not much that I can find on the wiki about them. How much would forcefield variants of the Monosaws cost, and technologically, what would that entail?
Yeeeaah, I really should improve that materials page sometime. I've been keeping it up as a tab since its creation, as a way to constantly remind myself that I should add to it, but I am exceptionally good at procrastination. >.>
FF Radial Monosaw costs 3t, because while it needs less projector than the FF monosword, it has a strong motor. Has lesser stat requirements too, for the same reason unholy's FF weapons are getting stat cuts. It's essentially a disk which projects an invisible monoatomic circular saw around it, and is rotated rapidly by a motor.
FF chainsword is... eh, 5t, again assuming similar length to other swords. It's essentially identical to a regular chainsword except with invisible teeth. Shouldn't need any stat requirements either ('cept maybe strength), because you can't even see the teeth when using a chainsaw.
Reposting this since it's been quite a while since I've been trying to make this happen. I want a price and an answer about the modular design. Edit: And I also want to know whether the new, improved version of exoskeletons is being installed in MkIIIs.Spoiler: Electrically-Powered Flight Pack (click to show/hide)
"We discussed part of this via IRC" :\
6t for a jump pack capable of simple flight for ten minutes, recharge period of twenty minutes. 1t for a blushard battery capable of two hours of flight. Four extra tokens gets you continual flight.
It's capable of Mk.III level manuverability, but uses double power while doing so. The continual variant gives you ten minutes of acrobatic flight, with a twenty minute recharge during which you can still fly normally. It can still use blurad batts if that's insufficient.
Note that it does not include any extra features like an exoskeleton, suit, or armor. It's just flight. It probably also doesn't work when you're out of atmosphere and not near anything, but the jump pack is essentially magic so I don't know.
As to MkIII exos, the "improved" exoskeleton design was incorporated to them back when the armory shift happened. It's the IC excuse for the MkIII getting a discount.
They don't get the heavy exoskeleton design that the one guy just made, though. MkIIIs only grant standard exoskeleton strength, and not synthflesh level strength.
Post by: syvarris on January 25, 2016, 06:13:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Could you run this?
I think it can work but I'm just saying that if something goes wrong it's gonna go very wrong. Nuclear reactor style: You can make it as safe as you possibly can, but at the end of the day you're still working with inherently dangerous materials.
That depends. the machine transports a certain volume of matter, so density matters. 10,000 sponge cakes vs 100 bars of lead.
Worry about that latter, or more than likely, hash it out with sy and come to me with specific problems neither of you know how to fix.
So then, you up for it, syvvy-kun?
I... think so? I'm having a remarkable degree of difficulty figuring out exactly what you're asking.
Do you want me to go over every tech that you're including in the autocolony thing, and say which bits work and which bits don't? This is really a place where I'd love bullets and question marks.
Also, this monster put my post over the length limit. So it gets to sit here all alone, because it's too fat to fit in with everyone else. Just like a certain general we know.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 25, 2016, 06:26:27 pm
Post by: Nikitian on January 25, 2016, 06:31:22 pm
(Haven't yet finished reading the massive post. Always happy for such walls of text! *cough*cough*Happy it wasn't me who caused the post split.*cough*cough*)
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 25, 2016, 06:34:58 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 25, 2016, 06:43:30 pm
I'm not sure who Styx is, but Milno's electric Mk.III was the hardest thing in that post. I don't really know how the Jump Pack works, so I was largely comparing it with the MCP-Aero suit. The Aero "just flies", while the Mk.III is acrobatic, so that's where the two different flight modes came from. Milno was specifically asking for a continual flight variant, and for whatever reason I didn't want it to cost more than the Mk.III, which meant it couldn't have comparable agility.
I'd be fine with having the genner cost even more, in trade for not having the divide between regular and acrobatic flight, if Milno wants that instead.
@Nik
Hex comes from hexstone/flatground, which redirected any kinetic attacks directed at it. IIRC, it was cut out with lasers. The rocklice were heat-resistant, but I guess they weren't heat resistant enough to offset the hexstone. Also, note that hexbug is excessively heavy and expensive, which is why the AS's hexbug layer is only an inch thick. Compared to the four inches a standard BS plate has, it might be more heat resistant by volume, but not by cost.
Mostly though, I'm going off of the old armor penetration tests I did with hexbug. Lasers could cut through it in seconds. We never tested with base BS plate metal, but I think it would last longer than seconds.
@Paris2
Ask PW.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 25, 2016, 06:48:26 pm
I actually cut Hexplate out of the ground with a monoatomic razor, because lasers and gauss rounds did nothing to it and I found it easier to dig under it than use overwhelming force. Edit: I think Hexplate stays at absolute zero and is incredibly smooth (hexplate skates would be fun) while hexsand just eats energy. I guess Hexplate is like a perfect reflector/insulator, although it's not that good against kinetics.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 25, 2016, 07:11:13 pm
Okey Dokey, not sure how to bullet point effeciently but ill give it a shot.Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Let me clarify--these weapons would do more damage than the regular forceblade, when wielded by normal humans, or wielded against very tough enemies. Remember that guy who attacked Renen? He would have done more damage if he had a force halberd, because the heavy weight would have added more energy to the blow. However, if Renen had a force halberd, he would have had more difficulty doing what he did, because the halberd's projector wouldn't slide neatly through Iveson's head. Renen doesn't need the heft, so it's only a disadvantage to him.
True monoblades have a higher cap to their damage, because they don't need to make much room for themselves. Your weapons have a lower cap, but are easier to do damage with when operating within that cap. Understand?
Moving the weight towards the hilt would help with that issue, though it would also mean the weight doesn't help as much with the cleaving action. I'm pretty sure it would also make the kilij into a regular scimitar, since the entire point is to have weight at the tip.
((Please bullet your questions. It makes it easier for me to answer them.)
As the kilij's emitter, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. It could work if the forcefield projector follows behind the entire length of the blade, but you're not reducing total mass spent in projectors, which is the issue.
But eh. I'll let you have the kilij for 3t, because I'm supposed to let people have fun, and because I haven't exactly made it easy for other people to learn how FFs work.
Heavy ablative armor:
I think this might be something PW is supposed to answer? It's material science, at least. Eh.
Making hexbug into a lattice will significantly reduce its kinetic resistance. It'll be heavier for the same degree of resistance, even before accounting for the hexsand. The hexsand will help with energy weapons, but will lose a significant degree of energy resistance because it is spread out.
I think the final result would be very resistant to kinetic small arms, with lasers and such relatively easily melting around the hexsand strands. So, better than warplate against kinetics, but worse against energy weapons (but much thinner, if not lighter). This is because hexbug is very easily melted, whereas the metal in BS plate--aside from the reflective fibers--is more resistant to heat.
That being said, we're very much getting into how I think things work, which is not necessarily how things really work. Maybe hexbug is actually more heat resistant by cost than base BS plate metal, and the fiber/lattice system is more effective than I give it credit for. *shrug*.
CryoticCrystalCarbon Rod armor
Excessively effective, but very very expensive. IIRC, those rods were expensive, and had a relatively short range, so you'd need to line the armor with them all over the place. Furthermore, the rods would make things necessarily very bulky, which would prevent you from using this strategy near the joints and hands.
Still, your main body would basically have true immunity to any sort of heat based weapon, which is half of them. You'd also be able to tank a nuke pretty well, better than even FFs.
Get a price on one of those rods, and I'll give you a price for a full layer of armor.
Monoblades
1.) My monoblades are meant to improve damage for everyone, even Renen.
I get your point about the projector getting in the way lessening the damage, thats why i moved the blades so that only a small portion is in front of it.
basically my halberd is now closer to a bardiche, both designs now have a "low" damage redundancy section in front of the projector and a high damage cleaving section above it.
That way the projector only gets in the way of the cut with low uncon/dex rolls such as 2's and 3's and on a 4+ the projector stays in front of the enemy while the blade passes through them.
Spoiler: basically im talking about the blade on the far right (click to show/hide)
2.) yay full sized Kilij, thanks.
Armors
unfortunately piecewise has stated he doesnt wanna do armor anymore, so youre the lucky guy i get to pester about it. :P
3.) Im not sure i got my idea across properly about the lattice, the reduction in strength probably would not be all that significant. sure, you are striking a point with a smaller surface area than a standard plate, but it still has the strength of all the material behind it and all the material that is behind the material that is supporting that material and so forth.
Basically your shooting something that actively spreads out the kinetic force over a large portion of the plate, instead of something that tries to tank it all in one spot.
Lattices are hard to explain... Basically im expecting to be be more weight efficient for the same protection, but less efficient by size or volume.
4.) As for the hexsand, i know weve had a miscommunication here. It is not meant to be spread out at all.
It is meant to fill the voids in the hexbug lattice and flow around all the lattice struts forming a single contiguous plate, albiet one with lots of small wireframe hexbug pyramids in it.
5.)Yeah the Cryotic rods had a range of a few inches, so youd probably need one every 8 inches or so.
ill go pester piecewise about the price of the cryotic carbon rods, kinda expecting this one to be a bit expensive.
update:
THe expensiveness level of using mass produced cryotic rods is... "Not very..."
Neat idea I forgot about, Headcrab mobility system.
5.) Cant believe I forgot about this thing.
Basic idea here is to give the braincase mobility system a really sharp blade, possibly hydraulically driven, and a single universal limb port.
Now when your robo/synth body gets broken beyond repair you simply eject yourself and jump on the nearest schmuck you see, use the blade to sever their spinal cord through their neck, and the universal limb port slaves their central nervous system to your braincase giving you complete control over their body.
Post by: Nikitian on January 25, 2016, 07:15:44 pm
@syvarris
Sure. Just wanted to point out since you specifically called out "heat resistance". This adds to the point where I am slightly hazy on how exactly the lasers "cut", so yeah.
Brisant 1.5
To be honest, I don't really know what you implied by cut down variant in the discussion, but since I was undertaking it anyway, I hypothesised you meant the firing methods (which, I admit, are really hazy - is the current Brisant fired from the ground/braced or just held in arms? or even put on the shoulder for firing? those variants have all been implied in the past). I would still rather keep to "different variants, same price" philosophy, as it seems to be prominent and relevant in these days. So perhaps the "carbine" variant could be optimised for shorter range and aimed directly (and in that mostly equivalent to the current Hand Cannon from user's point of view), whereas the "mortar" variant would be optimised more for longer range, require bracing and be fired high-arc? (Does that last part even make any sense for a personal weapon? And, of course, exoskeleton users with their strength & stability would probably ignore bracing requirement. Dirty cheaters. :P )
As for concrete tech, yep, I do have it. Here, under "Technology", third line. (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Hephaestus#CURRENT_STOCKPILES) They were developed quite some time ago, but Brisant predates even that. (And judging by neighouring entries, this is a significant upgrade.) Thanks for the work, RC!
Plus, as I said, hex-something-inner coating for barrels. I know that it was one of the limits for gauss weapons in the past that barrels/coils could be damaged through regular use (especially if the shot was overcharged, for example), so I'd like to use that as a reason why using hex-barrels might be economically feasible and actually make them cheaper.
Also, uhhh, Maurice's name? Why?..
Post by: NAV on January 25, 2016, 07:50:12 pm
It senses when the wearer dies, then it pumps their head full of chemicals and submerges it in biogel. Exactly like the "brain box" except fully automated, and only works on the person wearing it.
The medic backpack version is a decent idea though, I'm asking the council about it.
Council! The designs keep piling up!
Spoiler: Brain Preservation Backpack (click to show/hide)
Other finished designs waiting for council, still in one post.
Spoiler: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2 (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dragoncoat (click to show/hide)
Edit:
syyvarris, I want to argue with you about the electrolaser kit needing a handiwork roll. It is in a spoiler and not bolded though so you don't have to read it or respond if you don't want.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Caellath on January 25, 2016, 08:40:05 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 26, 2016, 12:53:31 am
Spoiler: buncha quotes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 26, 2016, 03:36:49 am
A design which implants a device into the user which, when biosensors detect massive & fatal trauma, activates a 1-shot pocket-dimension transfer to a predefined medical treatment area.
For an extra token, it can be activated manually
The idea being the natural evolution of all these brain case escape systems, combined with an equivalent for all the squishes out there who don't want their expensive genemods to go to waste.
Price is presumably high, but hopefully significantly less than the full PD generator.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 26, 2016, 03:57:12 am
Quote
I... think so? I'm having a remarkable degree of difficulty figuring out exactly what you're asking.
Do you want me to go over every tech that you're including in the autocolony thing, and say which bits work and which bits don't? This is really a place where I'd love bullets and question marks.
Also, this monster put my post over the length limit. So it gets to sit here all alone, because it's too fat to fit in with everyone else. Just like a certain general we know.
I dunno either man, pw send me here. Didn't think this was anything that you would do, since it's not exactly a regular tinker thing or an armory entry, but here we are. I guess we can just go over every item one at a time, though I suspect there'll be a very large amount of 'ask pw'. :-\
Hey, you take that back! Milno isn't that fat! He's just been slacking off of his diet, is all. And really, you wanted the context.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 26, 2016, 06:03:29 am
Doomsday, 10 uses canister, 1 token. Excellent against unarmored civilians.
Haebi Acid, 10 uses canister, 1 token. Makes avatar armor melt.
Also requires one time purchase of 2 token forcefield shielding. Handle with care.
So how does this armory inclusion go?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 26, 2016, 06:18:38 am
Post by: Empiricist on January 27, 2016, 03:31:55 pm
Prrressenting... the newest squad automatic weapon, the DEFINITIVE solution to all our waste problems and a memorial to the fallen - the General Waste Gun, or GWG for short! You take all of a planet's waste and you pump it straight into a Pocket Dimension, you then feed it straight into a Matter Saver Cartridge, and then straight out, at ABSOLUTELY ludicrous velocities! It has functionally infinite ammo, no recoil and comes with a fire selector! Who knows what it will fire? It could be raw sewage, electrical appliance shrapnel, even spent fuel rods, all determined by the user's Fate stat! It may not be able to pierce battleplate, but against groups of likely armored foes, it is UNPARALLELED! Suppress enemies until they drown in filth! Cut down whole swarms of combat drones! All in a compact little package! Sure, its raw components cost 19 tokens in total, but we're sure we can get the planets that benefit from it to chip in and MASSIVELY subsidize the cost! Approve one today!
Okay, so the design is as follows: You place a Pocket Dimension entrance on a planet and let them dump all of their assorted waste into it, the planet's government agrees to subsidize the cost in exchange for having a quick and easy way to get rid of their waste. The Pocket Dimension exit will, upon being opened, eject some of that waste in front of a Matter Saver that then, as quickly as possible, saves and loads the matter at high velocities, propelling it forwards. This should be fast enough to provide a high rate of fire, which combined with its effectively limitless ammunition, makes it superb for suppressive fire. It would count as a conventional weapon, but when firing, it would use a Fate roll to determine what exactly it is that comes out of the exit.
Post by: renegadelobster on January 27, 2016, 06:14:56 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 27, 2016, 06:19:57 pm
Post by: Nikitian on January 27, 2016, 06:41:00 pm
Post by: Grunhill on January 27, 2016, 09:07:45 pm
Put an Force infuser in a bat. The button would be in one of the sides.
To charge, the user should just move around.
For the cost, should be the price of 1 force infuser + 1 token for the changes, so 3 tokens
Post by: syvarris on January 28, 2016, 11:54:01 pm
Okey Dokey, not sure how to bullet point effeciently but ill give it a shot.
Monoblades
1.) My monoblades are meant to improve damage for everyone, even Renen.
I get your point about the projector getting in the way lessening the damage, thats why i moved the blades so that only a small portion is in front of it.
basically my halberd is now closer to a bardiche, both designs now have a "low" damage redundancy section in front of the projector and a high damage cleaving section above it.
That way the projector only gets in the way of the cut with low uncon/dex rolls such as 2's and 3's and on a 4+ the projector stays in front of the enemy while the blade passes through them.Spoiler: basically im talking about the blade on the far right (click to show/hide)
2.) yay full sized Kilij, thanks.
Armors
unfortunately piecewise has stated he doesnt wanna do armor anymore, so youre the lucky guy i get to pester about it. :P
3.) Im not sure i got my idea across properly about the lattice, the reduction in strength probably would not be all that significant. sure, you are striking a point with a smaller surface area than a standard plate, but it still has the strength of all the material behind it and all the material that is behind the material that is supporting that material and so forth.
Basically your shooting something that actively spreads out the kinetic force over a large portion of the plate, instead of something that tries to tank it all in one spot.
Lattices are hard to explain... Basically im expecting to be be more weight efficient for the same protection, but less efficient by size or volume.
4.) As for the hexsand, i know weve had a miscommunication here. It is not meant to be spread out at all.
It is meant to fill the voids in the hexbug lattice and flow around all the lattice struts forming a single contiguous plate, albiet one with lots of small wireframe hexbug pyramids in it.
5.)Yeah the Cryotic rods had a range of a few inches, so youd probably need one every 8 inches or so.
ill go pester piecewise about the price of the cryotic carbon rods, kinda expecting this one to be a bit expensive.
update:
THe expensiveness level of using mass produced cryotic rods is... "Not very..."
Neat idea I forgot about, Headcrab mobility system.
5.) Cant believe I forgot about this thing.
Basic idea here is to give the braincase mobility system a really sharp blade, possibly hydraulically driven, and a single universal limb port.
Now when your robo/synth body gets broken beyond repair you simply eject yourself and jump on the nearest schmuck you see, use the blade to sever their spinal cord through their neck, and the universal limb port slaves their central nervous system to your braincase giving you complete control over their body.
Monoblades:
1)I get what you mean. It'll have advantages and disadvatages compared to both the traditional monosword and your previous design. This design will probably have the best damage when used correctly, but still has the disadvantage of the projector being closer to your foe (and therefore easier to damage) compared to the original monosword, and it will be harder to use than your previous design. None of this means it is inferior, just different. Of course, PW's interpretation may end up being different in-game, but that applies to everything.
Armor:
3)...Okay, so by lattice you mean something like this (http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3191447/324134411/stock-photo-seamless-wooden-wicker-lattice-isolated-on-white-background-texture-basket-a-high-resolution-324134411.jpg), right? The strength reduction would be significant. It's easier to shear a bar than it is to shear an entire plate. No getting around that.
4)Yeah, I thought you had meant the hexsand would be like the reflective fibers in BS plate. Basically, I thought you were trying to replace the metal in warplate with hexbug. What you're trying to do would work better, though it wouldn't be able to eat plasma, unless you're making it so thick the hexbug reinforcement doesn't matter. I'm thinking having some connection between different masses of hexsand does not combine their energy eating properties, else we could just have a massive ball of hexsand inside the suit, and have tendrils leading to paint-thick exterior armor layers.
5)Okay. Ask him how hexbug performs at temperatures of a few K. I feel like hexbug would do well because it doesn't seem to be ductile at all at normal temps, but I honestly just don't know. Also, explain to me how you'll insulate the cockpit.
As for price, I'll say that a single solid layer of hexbug with implanted cryo cylinders is equal in cost to a mobility AS' armor, and is as bulky as a normal AS' armor. Council'll probably change that.
Headcrab:
6)Uh. Okay. I have no idea if a limb collector can work on an entire body, so ask PW about that. While you're at it, ask what the required physical dimensions of a limb collector are, because I'm not sure one can comfortably fit on a braincase. Lastly, what type of blade do you wanna put on this? FF, monowire, normal knife?
Note:It is best if you remove excess quotes from your posts if they aren't needed for context, because I generally won't. I write these up in a text file and then add in the quotes afterward. This post wasn't a problem, but I could easily see this typeof thing creating some bad quote pyramids if left unchecked.
Let's go short version this time. I know, a shocker, right?
@syvarris
Sure. Just wanted to point out since you specifically called out "heat resistance". This adds to the point where I am slightly hazy on how exactly the lasers "cut", so yeah.
Brisant 1.5
To be honest, I don't really know what you implied by cut down variant in the discussion, but since I was undertaking it anyway, I hypothesised you meant the firing methods (which, I admit, are really hazy - is the current Brisant fired from the ground/braced or just held in arms? or even put on the shoulder for firing? those variants have all been implied in the past). I would still rather keep to "different variants, same price" philosophy, as it seems to be prominent and relevant in these days. So perhaps the "carbine" variant could be optimised for shorter range and aimed directly (and in that mostly equivalent to the current Hand Cannon from user's point of view), whereas the "mortar" variant would be optimised more for longer range, require bracing and be fired high-arc? (Does that last part even make any sense for a personal weapon? And, of course, exoskeleton users with their strength & stability would probably ignore bracing requirement. Dirty cheaters. :P )
As for concrete tech, yep, I do have it. Here, under "Technology", third line. (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Hephaestus#CURRENT_STOCKPILES) They were developed quite some time ago, but Brisant predates even that. (And judging by neighouring entries, this is a significant upgrade.) Thanks for the work, RC!
Plus, as I said, hex-something-inner coating for barrels. I know that it was one of the limits for gauss weapons in the past that barrels/coils could be damaged through regular use (especially if the shot was overcharged, for example), so I'd like to use that as a reason why using hex-barrels might be economically feasible and actually make them cheaper.
Also, uhhh, Maurice's name? Why?..
...Okay, you really need bullets. You've got seven question marks in that post, half of which seem to be rhetorical, and several statements which imply a question.
Regardless, you first seem to be asking about the difference between a standard and carbine variant. Standard variant, to my mind, would be identical to the current brisant, while the carbine would be closer to the hand cannon. Both cost the same.
You don't get a mortar variant without a price increase. This is because the mortar would have to have a fairly significant power increase, due to the way PW's mind works. He doesn't do minor tweaks; a gauss rifle with a foregrip is identical to a normal gauss rifle, despite the fact that it would be easier to fire from the hip.
As to the generator tech... I really, really hate that, and I vocalized that opinion back when we got it. There was no reason for that upgrade--it was just "Scientists! Go science and improve things!" and a month later the scientists unlocked Generator tech level 2. Even beyond that, why would slightly improved generators cut the weapon's cost by 33%?
Using a different material with better properties is a much better way to convince me to cheapen things. However, why would a barrel coating make the coils less likely to melt? Are you giving them hexsand heatsinks? Are you giving them frictionless hexground coatings, so that they don't have to work as hard?
Lastly, I was joking that I wouldn't expect Maurice to design the horrible flesh-melting aerosol grenades.
Brain Preservation Suit Upgrade
It senses when the wearer dies, then it pumps their head full of chemicals and submerges it in biogel. Exactly like the "brain box" except fully automated, and only works on the person wearing it.
The medic backpack version is a decent idea though, I'm asking the council about it.
Council! The designs keep piling up!Spoiler: Brain Preservation Backpack (click to show/hide)
Other finished designs waiting for council, still in one post.Spoiler: Heavy Armoured Exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2 (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Heavy exoskeleton (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dragoncoat (click to show/hide)
Edit:
syyvarris, I want to argue with you about the electrolaser kit needing a handiwork roll. It is in a spoiler and not bolded though so you don't have to read it or respond if you don't want.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"...so you don't have to read it or respond if you don't want."
Are you kidding? I love arguing! Normally, I have to restrain myself because other people don't want to argue! :D
Spoiler: Response (click to show/hide)
Alright. Anything else we need to do or should I submit this to the council for summary nerfing?Spoiler: buncha quotes (click to show/hide)
Nope. Submit it to the council.
Design: Portable Emergency Room.
A design which implants a device into the user which, when biosensors detect massive & fatal trauma, activates a 1-shot pocket-dimension transfer to a predefined medical treatment area.
For an extra token, it can be activated manually
The idea being the natural evolution of all these brain case escape systems, combined with an equivalent for all the squishes out there who don't want their expensive genemods to go to waste.
Price is presumably high, but hopefully significantly less than the full PD generator.
Okay, you can get this as a mod to a regular pocket dimension for one token. If you want a cheaper burnout pocket dimension, you have to ask PW, because I have no idea if such a thing is possible.
QuoteI... think so? I'm having a remarkable degree of difficulty figuring out exactly what you're asking.
Do you want me to go over every tech that you're including in the autocolony thing, and say which bits work and which bits don't? This is really a place where I'd love bullets and question marks.
Also, this monster put my post over the length limit. So it gets to sit here all alone, because it's too fat to fit in with everyone else. Just like a certain general we know.
I dunno either man, pw send me here. Didn't think this was anything that you would do, since it's not exactly a regular tinker thing or an armory entry, but here we are. I guess we can just go over every item one at a time, though I suspect there'll be a very large amount of 'ask pw'. :-\
Hey, you take that back! Milno isn't that fat! He's just been slacking off of his diet, is all. And really, you wanted the context.
Spoiler: Blegh. (click to show/hide)
Universal Chem Thrower extra chemicals:
Doomsday, 10 uses canister, 1 token. Excellent against unarmored civilians.
Haebi Acid, 10 uses canister, 1 token. Makes avatar armor melt.
Also requires one time purchase of 2 token forcefield shielding. Handle with care.
So how does this armory inclusion go?
You asking the council? I can't decide jack about armory inclusion.
5 token avatar kill? Ewwwwwwww
It's not really a five token avatar kill, because you have a very limited supply of the stuff. Yes, you can hurt an avatar, but an ant can hurt you too.
Also, you have to get fairly close to use the UCT. Within easy reach, at least.
((Read the following with the voice of a wrestling announcer.))
Prrressenting... the newest squad automatic weapon, the DEFINITIVE solution to all our waste problems and a memorial to the fallen - the General Waste Gun, or GWG for short! You take all of a planet's waste and you pump it straight into a Pocket Dimension, you then feed it straight into a Matter Saver Cartridge, and then straight out, at ABSOLUTELY ludicrous velocities! It has functionally infinite ammo, no recoil and comes with a fire selector! Who knows what it will fire? It could be raw sewage, electrical appliance shrapnel, even spent fuel rods, all determined by the user's Fate stat! It may not be able to pierce battleplate, but against groups of likely armored foes, it is UNPARALLELED! Suppress enemies until they drown in filth! Cut down whole swarms of combat drones! All in a compact little package! Sure, its raw components cost 19 tokens in total, but we're sure we can get the planets that benefit from it to chip in and MASSIVELY subsidize the cost! Approve one today!
Okay, so the design is as follows: You place a Pocket Dimension entrance on a planet and let them dump all of their assorted waste into it, the planet's government agrees to subsidize the cost in exchange for having a quick and easy way to get rid of their waste. The Pocket Dimension exit will, upon being opened, eject some of that waste in front of a Matter Saver that then, as quickly as possible, saves and loads the matter at high velocities, propelling it forwards. This should be fast enough to provide a high rate of fire, which combined with its effectively limitless ammunition, makes it superb for suppressive fire. It would count as a conventional weapon, but when firing, it would use a Fate roll to determine what exactly it is that comes out of the exit.
This is... creative, I guess. Why isn't the matter saver inside the pocket dimension, though?
Talk to PW regardless. The primary hurdle for this gun is convincing a planet to dump its waste in your pocket.
Idea for a new Shockwave bat.
Put an Force infuser in a bat. The button would be in one of the sides.
To charge, the user should just move around.
For the cost, should be the price of 1 force infuser + 1 token for the changes, so 3 tokens
I don't see any problem with this, though the shockwave bat had a whole bunch of kinamps, whereas this only has one infuser. I've always thought the multiple-kinamp idea was idiotic, but it actually would matter for force infusers because they each charge and discharge individually.
3t is fine.
Post by: Unholy_Pariah on January 29, 2016, 01:07:05 am
Monoblades:Monoblades seem finished so we'll skip those and get nik to review them or something.
1)I get what you mean. It'll have advantages and disadvatages compared to both the traditional monosword and your previous design. This design will probably have the best damage when used correctly, but still has the disadvantage of the projector being closer to your foe (and therefore easier to damage) compared to the original monosword, and it will be harder to use than your previous design. None of this means it is inferior, just different. Of course, PW's interpretation may end up being different in-game, but that applies to everything.
Armor:
3)...Okay, so by lattice you mean something like this (http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3191447/324134411/stock-photo-seamless-wooden-wicker-lattice-isolated-on-white-background-texture-basket-a-high-resolution-324134411.jpg), right? The strength reduction would be significant. It's easier to shear a bar than it is to shear an entire plate. No getting around that.
4)Yeah, I thought you had meant the hexsand would be like the reflective fibers in BS plate. Basically, I thought you were trying to replace the metal in warplate with hexbug. What you're trying to do would work better, though it wouldn't be able to eat plasma, unless you're making it so thick the hexbug reinforcement doesn't matter. I'm thinking having some connection between different masses of hexsand does not combine their energy eating properties, else we could just have a massive ball of hexsand inside the suit, and have tendrils leading to paint-thick exterior armor layers.
5)Okay. Ask him how hexbug performs at temperatures of a few K. I feel like hexbug would do well because it doesn't seem to be ductile at all at normal temps, but I honestly just don't know. Also, explain to me how you'll insulate the cockpit.
As for price, I'll say that a single solid layer of hexbug with implanted cryo cylinders is equal in cost to a mobility AS' armor, and is as bulky as a normal AS' armor. Council'll probably change that.
Headcrab:
6)Uh. Okay. I have no idea if a limb collector can work on an entire body, so ask PW about that. While you're at it, ask what the required physical dimensions of a limb collector are, because I'm not sure one can comfortably fit on a braincase. Lastly, what type of blade do you wanna put on this? FF, monowire, normal knife?
Note:It is best if you remove excess quotes from your posts if they aren't needed for context, because I generally won't. I write these up in a text file and then add in the quotes afterward. This post wasn't a problem, but I could easily see this typeof thing creating some bad quote pyramids if left unchecked.
Ablative Armor
3.)That picture... not nearly what i was thinking of. :P
what i meant was something like this, but extending into a full plate shaped object, where the struts are thicker and made of hexbug and the empty spaces are filled with hexsand.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
4.) yeah this is a seperate armor layer, if i get it working right i might stick it behind my warplate to form something seriously beefy, but im not gonna mess with that when i know it already works.
The hexsand in this new armor as you can hopefully now see isnt a series of interconnected segments, its a big block of energy eating goodness that has some structural reinfocements to keep it from shattering at the first sign of trouble.
probably gonna aim for a 60/40 ratio of bug to sand as the kinetics have more impact so to speak.
Cryotic Armor
5.)Not quite sure about the insulation yet, i was simply checking to see if the armor itself was feasible.
Im thinking something along the lines of venting waste heat through or along the cockpits exterior plating, that way it keeps the cockpit warm and the cryotic rods cant force the armor itself all the way down to near zero kelvin.
Headcrab
6.) yeah word of piecewise would probably help
i dont really see any issues regarding the size of the port, its an adaptive material that can flow out and resize itself so you could probably get it to squish itself into a little ball or something when its not connected to anything.
Normal steel blade, that and the stock laser should get you the access you need.
Spoiler: Armory entry just for my reference (click to show/hide)
Post by: Nikitian on January 29, 2016, 03:27:20 am
@syvarris
Well, I did not use the bullet points, because those was never meant as separate things. More of a lump arguments. Also, I'd really like to finish Brisant here before Maurice is executed by Ulrich, since no one would ever care to deal with it later.
I am fine with the current/carbine versions for new Brisant (no mortar one, it was silly, I guess).
My arguments (not to be taken separately, but bulleted for your convenience):
- Better generators. Yeah, we have them. Just like 2x stronger exoskeletons and better fuels that came from the same research. I believe the official reason for that was that we had been still using the Altered Wars-era designs and tech almost everywhere, and no one cared to upgrade them since then. So yes, now we have them, they are significantly better (don't know how much - TPU we have were given far earlier; but, as you said, Piecewise doesn't deal with "slight improvements"), and I think it's appropriate as an argument to lower the cost. (I mean, Piecewise himself approved this tech when he gave it to us.)
- Hex-something (pure hex? hexsand? whichever works better) for barrel coating - to deal away with friction and extra damage to the barrel itself from the firing. More economical in the longer view, if anything (to reduce the support "repair" costs).
- Hexsand for insulation and as heatsink for the charging circuit - to reduce the wear, again.
- Cold-rods (fragments - I recall that they work if they are "under the specific size" and fragmenting preserves their qualities), if economically viable, as an alternative heatsinks tech (vs. the option above).
With the above arguments in mind, I would like to bring Brisant price down to 2 tokens. Do you think it is reasonable, or not?
Post by: NAV on January 29, 2016, 10:07:22 am
Brain Preservation Suit UpgradeYou missed this.
It senses when the wearer dies, then it pumps their head full of chemicals and submerges it in biogel. Exactly like the "brain box" except fully automated, and only works on the person wearing it.
Here's a deathtube. It's heavily based on Spazyak's design, so he gets any credit and tokens this makes.
Kinetic charge carbine
-Build a force infuser into a small rifle body. Uses Con. 2 tokens.
-A gauss piston repeatedly slams into the force infuser, charging kinetic battery. 1 token.
-Dial on the side lets you select the amount of kinetic energy to use for a shot.
-Fires any gauss rifle ammo.
-Total 3 token cost.
Do you see any problems with this?
It would take at most a couple seconds charging for a gauss rifle power shot. How long do you think it would take to crack milnoplate? Battlesuit? Assaultsuit? Avatar of war?
Post by: spazyak on January 29, 2016, 11:01:00 am
Yay, I did something usefull for once.Brain Preservation Suit UpgradeYou missed this.
It senses when the wearer dies, then it pumps their head full of chemicals and submerges it in biogel. Exactly like the "brain box" except fully automated, and only works on the person wearing it.
Here's a deathtube. It's heavily based on Spazyak's design, so he gets any credit and tokens this makes.
Kinetic charge carbine
-Build a force infuser into a small rifle body. Uses Con. 2 tokens.
-A gauss piston repeatedly slams into the force infuser, charging kinetic battery. 1 token.
-Dial on the side lets you select the amount of kinetic energy to use for a shot.
-Fires any gauss rifle ammo.
-Total 3 token cost.
Do you see any problems with this?
It would take at most a couple seconds charging for a gauss rifle power shot. How long do you think it would take to crack milnoplate? Battlesuit? Assaultsuit? Avatar of war?
Though I wonder if the gauss rifle's overcharge settings could be implemented into this? Also seems that the design coule be modified to fire things like grenades or gas pellets by switching out the tub that holds the amunition
Post by: syvarris on January 29, 2016, 10:30:03 pm
Monoblades:Monoblades seem finished so we'll skip those and get nik to review them or something.
1)I get what you mean. It'll have advantages and disadvatages compared to both the traditional monosword and your previous design. This design will probably have the best damage when used correctly, but still has the disadvantage of the projector being closer to your foe (and therefore easier to damage) compared to the original monosword, and it will be harder to use than your previous design. None of this means it is inferior, just different. Of course, PW's interpretation may end up being different in-game, but that applies to everything.
Armor:
3)...Okay, so by lattice you mean something like this (http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3191447/324134411/stock-photo-seamless-wooden-wicker-lattice-isolated-on-white-background-texture-basket-a-high-resolution-324134411.jpg), right? The strength reduction would be significant. It's easier to shear a bar than it is to shear an entire plate. No getting around that.
4)Yeah, I thought you had meant the hexsand would be like the reflective fibers in BS plate. Basically, I thought you were trying to replace the metal in warplate with hexbug. What you're trying to do would work better, though it wouldn't be able to eat plasma, unless you're making it so thick the hexbug reinforcement doesn't matter. I'm thinking having some connection between different masses of hexsand does not combine their energy eating properties, else we could just have a massive ball of hexsand inside the suit, and have tendrils leading to paint-thick exterior armor layers.
5)Okay. Ask him how hexbug performs at temperatures of a few K. I feel like hexbug would do well because it doesn't seem to be ductile at all at normal temps, but I honestly just don't know. Also, explain to me how you'll insulate the cockpit.
As for price, I'll say that a single solid layer of hexbug with implanted cryo cylinders is equal in cost to a mobility AS' armor, and is as bulky as a normal AS' armor. Council'll probably change that.
Headcrab:
6)Uh. Okay. I have no idea if a limb collector can work on an entire body, so ask PW about that. While you're at it, ask what the required physical dimensions of a limb collector are, because I'm not sure one can comfortably fit on a braincase. Lastly, what type of blade do you wanna put on this? FF, monowire, normal knife?
Note:It is best if you remove excess quotes from your posts if they aren't needed for context, because I generally won't. I write these up in a text file and then add in the quotes afterward. This post wasn't a problem, but I could easily see this typeof thing creating some bad quote pyramids if left unchecked.
Ablative Armor
3.)That picture... not nearly what i was thinking of. :P
what i meant was something like this, but extending into a full plate shaped object, where the struts are thicker and made of hexbug and the empty spaces are filled with hexsand.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
4.) yeah this is a seperate armor layer, if i get it working right i might stick it behind my warplate to form something seriously beefy, but im not gonna mess with that when i know it already works.
The hexsand in this new armor as you can hopefully now see isnt a series of interconnected segments, its a big block of energy eating goodness that has some structural reinfocements to keep it from shattering at the first sign of trouble.
probably gonna aim for a 60/40 ratio of bug to sand as the kinetics have more impact so to speak.
Cryotic Armor
5.)Not quite sure about the insulation yet, i was simply checking to see if the armor itself was feasible.
Im thinking something along the lines of venting waste heat through or along the cockpits exterior plating, that way it keeps the cockpit warm and the cryotic rods cant force the armor itself all the way down to near zero kelvin.
Headcrab
6.) yeah word of piecewise would probably help
i dont really see any issues regarding the size of the port, its an adaptive material that can flow out and resize itself so you could probably get it to squish itself into a little ball or something when its not connected to anything.
Normal steel blade, that and the stock laser should get you the access you need.((i feel like i need to explain my things better.))Spoiler: Armory entry just for my reference (click to show/hide)
3)Ah, okay. My mind wasn't sure what exact shape you meant by "lattice", and the picture I posted was what the internet gave me.
4)60/40... hmm. Well, small arms kinetics will crack the hexsand portion, but it'll mostly remain in position. Biggest problem is that cracks will weaken the hexsand's energy resistance. Heavy kinetics like the HGC will crumple the lattice and make a decent hole in the armor, though not destroy an entire section like with warplate. AP kinetics like the PSL will penetrate and destroy... Eh, two layers; hexbug primarily resists the initial penetration due to its hardness, and an external explosion isn't nearly as bad as an internal explsion. Lasers won't touch it, but plasma will eat through it somewhat, and will eat through it quite quickly if it's been cracked. Plasma projector would get through... oh, two layers. Three if the first is severely cracked.
5)Once you've decided on insulation method, explain it to me. You're not gonna avoid 0 kelvin armor though--the cryotic rods instantly drain all heat within their radius.
Also, while processing Nik's action, I actually looked up the rods. PW said they stop functioning when encased in material; they need some space to operate, for some reason. So your armor has to be partially hollow.
Ah, screw it. Tinkering to the very end! ((And Maurice doesn't have a shock implant. :P ))
@syvarris
Well, I did not use the bullet points, because those was never meant as separate things. More of a lump arguments. Also, I'd really like to finish Brisant here before Maurice is executed by Ulrich, since no one would ever care to deal with it later.
I am fine with the current/carbine versions for new Brisant (no mortar one, it was silly, I guess).
My arguments (not to be taken separately, but bulleted for your convenience):
- Better generators. Yeah, we have them. Just like 2x stronger exoskeletons and better fuels that came from the same research. I believe the official reason for that was that we had been still using the Altered Wars-era designs and tech almost everywhere, and no one cared to upgrade them since then. So yes, now we have them, they are significantly better (don't know how much - TPU we have were given far earlier; but, as you said, Piecewise doesn't deal with "slight improvements"), and I think it's appropriate as an argument to lower the cost. (I mean, Piecewise himself approved this tech when he gave it to us.)
- Hex-something (pure hex? hexsand? whichever works better) for barrel coating - to deal away with friction and extra damage to the barrel itself from the firing. More economical in the longer view, if anything (to reduce the support "repair" costs).
- Hexsand for insulation and as heatsink for the charging circuit - to reduce the wear, again.
- Cold-rods (fragments - I recall that they work if they are "under the specific size" and fragmenting preserves their qualities), if economically viable, as an alternative heatsinks tech (vs. the option above).
With the above arguments in mind, I would like to bring Brisant price down to 2 tokens. Do you think it is reasonable, or not?
1.Exoskeletons got their price reduced in half when the roll system changed, to account for the fact that they were less useful. We used the "They're twice as strong now, but we decided to make them half cost rather than double strength." as an in-universe excuse for why this was done. The better fuels never had any in-game effect--just check the Mk.III's page history (http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Mk_III_Suit?action=history) if you don't believe me. The generators have never affected anything before you brought them up to try and cheapen the Brisant. The only direct effect from those improved techs was in the Assaultsuit, and I designed the assaultsuit. Check Emp's sig if you don't understand why that invalidates it.
2.Hexground was literally frictionless, so I'm assuming you mean that. While it might improve efficiency, it won't help wear, because IIRC overcharges deform the coils, not the barrel. Either way, adding metamaterials isn't going to make the design cheaper.
3.Okay, this would actually make the gun last longer without damage. It's still an expensive metamaterial, though, and would fetch a price increase.
4.Coldrods lose their cooling ability below a minimal size. They also cool things to absolute 0, making them flawed crystals, which is a very bad thing both for grenades and barrels. Notably, this *would* make the coils into superconductors, but that's probably not worth having a gun that shatters upon being fired.
So no. You have not convinced me the Brisant should be cheaper.
Brain Preservation Suit Upgrade:Brain Preservation Suit UpgradeYou missed this.
It senses when the wearer dies, then it pumps their head full of chemicals and submerges it in biogel. Exactly like the "brain box" except fully automated, and only works on the person wearing it.
Here's a deathtube. It's heavily based on Spazyak's design, so he gets any credit and tokens this makes.
Kinetic charge carbine
-Build a force infuser into a small rifle body. Uses Con. 2 tokens.
-A gauss piston repeatedly slams into the force infuser, charging kinetic battery. 1 token.
-Dial on the side lets you select the amount of kinetic energy to use for a shot.
-Fires any gauss rifle ammo.
-Total 3 token cost.
Do you see any problems with this?
It would take at most a couple seconds charging for a gauss rifle power shot. How long do you think it would take to crack milnoplate? Battlesuit? Assaultsuit? Avatar of war?
Sorry about that.
2t, 1t if your suit already has medical systems (MkII or better). The 1t version improves your suit to have a headchopping iris. I don't remember if MCPIs have med injection ports, but if not, this adds them. Everything is helmet mounted, making the helmet even more bulbous, but that way you still only have to rescue the head.
Kinetic charge carbine:
"Carbine", heh.
The primary problem I see is that you're assuming the force infuser can be machine-operated. Please provide a PW quote stating that such a thing is possible, unless you want the gun to be combination con/exo.
Also, you should ask PW if the Infuser has any limitations on capacity, and if it can expend only a portion of its power at a time. And if it has any inefficiency.
As for damage by charge...
Spoiler: syv tries to science, and probably fails severely (click to show/hide)
@Spazy
Overcharge function can't be incorporated without adding the coils back in, which would raise the price by two tokens. It wouldn't help much, anyway--your design is perfectly capable of destroying itself, given time to charge.
That was a damn good idea, though. If the force infuser can be machine-operated, I'm definitely gonna try and use it to make reactionless jetboots.
Post by: spazyak on January 30, 2016, 12:35:04 am
also one only needs to have a part of the force infuser in contact with them. So one could take the part that would normal contact the user's skin and put it in the grip of the gun allowing for it to still be used and controlled like a normal force infuser.
Post by: Nikitian on January 30, 2016, 07:32:28 am
Also, for the record, the fuels also never did anything because we never specified to use them. No, really, we never explicitly stated that. I intended to rectify that with MCP-III, but I probably won't be able to - so please just don't dismiss this in the future just because it never seemed to have an effect. I can even check how significant the benefit was with Piecewise in the Poke thread, if you wouldn't take that as a syvving attempt.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2016, 04:01:29 pm
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I know buddy, I know. We can glare at pw's general direction together as we struggle through this. Turn spoilered for length.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I will be posting council results in hep OOC to prevent clutter here. It would also be very helpful if people who have stuff ready for council checking post their full write-up in there and indicate that it's ready for council review.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 30, 2016, 06:57:27 pm
Quote
We could also look into making the ship into 'modules' that can reattach once shipped, but that seems like an engineering nightmareI dunno about that. Isn't that how we built stuff like the ISS? Isn't it how they plan to build large vessels if humanity doesn't get a space elevator or off-world mining and construction any time soon? Even if you've got future tech available, I don't see why you wouldn't want a modular design for non-military vessels.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 30, 2016, 08:58:27 pm
Post by: NAV on January 31, 2016, 04:54:18 pm
I mostly chose carbine because it sounds wonderfully alliterative :P
Spoiler: Questions and Answers! (click to show/hide)
How about a barrel made of that frictionless material, that should allow higher power shots without damaging the barrel I think.
How well would it work and much would it cost?
Dual brain saver backpack:
How about a version that can hold 2 heads instead of 1? I don't think it has to be twice as large, nor twice as expensive since presumably some of the components can be shared between both heads.
Slip'n'slide boots:
Make the bottom of a pair of boots out of our frictionless material. A grippy sole normally covers the bottom, but can slide out of the way revealing the frictionless ones beneath.
I'm not sure exactly what military uses these would have but they would be fun.
Return of the sub-exoskeleton
The MCP-Aero "fat sparrow" suit increases the user's strength to robobody levels, but not to full exoskeleton strength. Make just an exoskeleton version of that.
Honestly this is an afterthought, but it should be extremely cheap, and help with certain strength requirements and endurance tasks.
Stupid question:
How much would an assaultsuit with absolutely none of the armour or bonus features cost?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 02, 2016, 03:30:26 am
Quote
How much would an assaultsuit with absolutely none of the armour or bonus features cost?So basically just the exoskeleton?
Post by: syvarris on February 04, 2016, 09:49:21 pm
Anyway, from now on, Please post all finished designs in the Heph OOC thread, where the council can see them. It's best if you provide the council with a full writeup, including both the armory entry, and a more detailed description for the item's page. It's also a good idea to provide any relevant quotes from me or PW, so that the council doesn't have to waste time searching for the quotes.
Why can't a force infuser be machine operated, you would have to create a sort of artificial brain that would tell it to use a certain amount of force which can be decided based on a dial
also one only needs to have a part of the force infuser in contact with them. So one could take the part that would normal contact the user's skin and put it in the grip of the gun allowing for it to still be used and controlled like a normal force infuser.
Please bold questions if you want me to answer them. Question marks are also extraordinarily useful things.
A force infuser probably could work the way you describe, since that's basically what an automanipulator is, but you'd need the brain and life support for it, which will drive up cost. Also, I can't decide whether or not you're allowed to automate items, that's poke material.
I accept this failure. Then, for 3-token upgraded Brisant, what are the options that you would allow? Two variants, as discussed; what of meta-material upgrades, etc.?
Also, for the record, the fuels also never did anything because we never specified to use them. No, really, we never explicitly stated that. I intended to rectify that with MCP-III, but I probably won't be able to - so please just don't dismiss this in the future just because it never seemed to have an effect. I can even check how significant the benefit was with Piecewise in the Poke thread, if you wouldn't take that as a syvving attempt.
You're gone, aren't you? ;-;
Well, the two variants you described were a slightly larger brisant, and a cut-down more mobile brisant. I'm fine with the cut-down one, since removing stuff won't increase the price. It's up to you how much you want it to be cut down, though you should probably do it to such an extent it actually means something to PW; If it's the same thing except five inches shorter, stockless, and has a foregrip, PW probably won't actually treat it any differently.
QuoteSpoiler (click to show/hide)
I know buddy, I know. We can glare at pw's general direction together as we struggle through this. Turn spoilered for length.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I will be posting council results in hep OOC to prevent clutter here. It would also be very helpful if people who have stuff ready for council checking post their full write-up in there and indicate that it's ready for council review.
Spoiler: Responses (click to show/hide)
Kinetic Charge Carbine:
I mostly chose carbine because it sounds wonderfully alliterative :PSo it's most likely a con/exo weapon. I'm waiting for a reply from PW on how exactly the con/exo works and if it can be made pure con.Spoiler: Questions and Answers! (click to show/hide)
How about a barrel made of that frictionless material, that should allow higher power shots without damaging the barrel I think.
How well would it work and much would it cost?
Dual brain saver backpack:
How about a version that can hold 2 heads instead of 1? I don't think it has to be twice as large, nor twice as expensive since presumably some of the components can be shared between both heads.
Slip'n'slide boots:
Make the bottom of a pair of boots out of our frictionless material. A grippy sole normally covers the bottom, but can slide out of the way revealing the frictionless ones beneath.
I'm not sure exactly what military uses these would have but they would be fun.
Return of the sub-exoskeleton
The MCP-Aero "fat sparrow" suit increases the user's strength to robobody levels, but not to full exoskeleton strength. Make just an exoskeleton version of that.
Honestly this is an afterthought, but it should be extremely cheap, and help with certain strength requirements and endurance tasks.
Stupid question:
How much would an assaultsuit with absolutely none of the armour or bonus features cost?
Kinetic Charge Carbine:
Frictionless material lets the gun survive any level of charge up to 160s, and probably more, all assuming it remains without rifling. Rifling requires forcefields, and forcefields have the flaw of being explosive. Also, rifling is very fiddly and probably wouldn't even work well with this gun anyway.
As to power, within atmosphere, 160s remains your best setting. Beyond that you get diminishing returns due to ablation. Out of atmosphere, well, there's nothing stopping you from firing it at light speed if you wait long enough.
Frictionless barrel costs 2t, for 5t total. The barrel doesn't actually need to be terribly thick or strong because there isn't much force acting on it.
Dual brain saver backpack:
The council repriced this, right? I'll say the two head version costs 50% more than whatever price they gave for the single head version.
Slip'n'slide boots:
I'll say 1t. The problem you get into eith this is that it's difficult to get going at a high speed, and it only works on smooth ground. You're not gonna skate over rubble.
Also, +1 dex minimum, and requires dex rolls for anything aside from moving in a straight line on a level surface. Frictionless soles have to be much harder to ride than skates.
Return of the sub-exoskeleton
I think this only matters for five weapons, and even then, only if you have negative strength. 2t.
There are no stupid questions:
This is extremely difficult, because the assaultsuit is only 50% more expensive than the Mk.III, but adds so much. I can't really use my typical "production cost" methodology, because the AS is just far too cheap.
Bleh, 10t. It's vastly stronger than an Mk.III, but requires +2 aux and has none of the other features.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 04, 2016, 10:01:05 pm
Post by: spazyak on February 04, 2016, 10:10:13 pm
Guess we should call it the Kinetic Charge Musket, then. :PWe could sell it in a complete kit or a diy kit. Perhals some jack that one coukd hook uo their own generator to the battery may be in order to allow for costumizability and general usefullness
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 04, 2016, 10:55:41 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 05, 2016, 09:29:28 am
Remember the liquid we found at the Anomalous Planetoid? The one that solidified into very hard crystal whenever it came into contact with other forms of matter? I'd like to put that in as a chem thrower ammo as something that can be used to make more sturdy barricades and trap things even better than sticky goop. A sort of instant cement, if you like. I assume 1 token per can is fine?
It also has the added advantage that someone with handiwork skill could use it to create objects or create moulds for objects.
EDIT: Ah, wait, just found this:
The liquid crystal appears to be something akin to stemcells, able to take on many different configurations depending on stimulus. However, we cannot, as of yet, manage to reproduce it via chemical or mechanical means.So it's probably not possible to do that, unless piecewise says we found a way to get more. And now we can't even duplicate it using automanipulators. Maybe we could use the cube...
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 05, 2016, 12:37:32 pm
Is it possible to get a long-barelled version of the Brisant with enough gauss coils to have it fire like a normal hypersonic rifle, instead of the usual ballistic arc?
(I seem to recall that the Brisant had most of its coils stripped so that the grenades were slow enough that the inventor could bounce grenades around corners and stuff)
Price? Price to convert a normal one?
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 05, 2016, 01:57:43 pm
That sounds a lot like a bag of Instant Sandbag at 1/8th the price.Well, you can't use it to eat lasers or tear things to shreds or grow more of itself or do any of the other fun things you can with a sandbag, but you can use it in vacuum.
Is it possible to get a long-barelled version of the Brisant with enough gauss coils to have it fire like a normal hypersonic rifle, instead of the usual ballistic arc?
(I seem to recall that the Brisant had most of its coils stripped so that the grenades were slow enough that the inventor could bounce grenades around corners and stuff)
Price? Price to convert a normal one?
Also, won't a bigger brisant basically be a big Gauss rifle or a small Gauss cannon?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 05, 2016, 04:49:17 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 05, 2016, 05:32:21 pm
I'd like a Gauss rifle that fires grenades like normal ones fire slugs, not a ten-foot-long nuclear artillery system.Wouldn't it be more convenient to add the grenades you want as special Gauss rifle ammo instead of converting a grenade launcher to a cannon?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 05, 2016, 07:19:49 pm
Mostly I'm looking for things to do later, since PW is busy flailing at all the happy shoppers/mutineers/aliens to respectively sit down, shut up, and eat plasma.
Post by: syvarris on February 07, 2016, 03:42:32 pm
Could we have a hard-light shooty thingy? Like, it makes bullets and flings them in the direction you're pointing?
Come on, you can use your words. All you have to do is try. I believe in you!
Anyway, the answer is "Yes, though you'll have issues with your bullets disappearing once they leave the range of your SLMG". If you want something better than that, you'll have to ask more specific questions, preferably specifying what method you'll use for propulsion.
Sticky goop is nice for restraining things, trapping things and closing holes and it has the added benefit that it can easily be dissolved. However, it is not very strong or very versatile. So I propose the use of another material:
Remember the liquid we found at the Anomalous Planetoid? The one that solidified into very hard crystal whenever it came into contact with other forms of matter? I'd like to put that in as a chem thrower ammo as something that can be used to make more sturdy barricades and trap things even better than sticky goop. A sort of instant cement, if you like. I assume 1 token per can is fine?
It also has the added advantage that someone with handiwork skill could use it to create objects or create moulds for objects.
EDIT: Ah, wait, just found this:The liquid crystal appears to be something akin to stemcells, able to take on many different configurations depending on stimulus. However, we cannot, as of yet, manage to reproduce it via chemical or mechanical means.So it's probably not possible to do that, unless piecewise says we found a way to get more. And now we can't even duplicate it using automanipulators. Maybe we could use the cube...
Ask PW if we can replicate the stuff (or provide a quote if he's already said we can), and preferably ask him how expensive it is to produce in comparison to other substances. While you're at it you might want to ask how effective it is in that role.
Note that it won't be nearly as easy to dissolve as stickygoop, and I could easily see it being lethal to fleshies for that reason, but I guess this is kinda your point.
prepostedit: Bold everything relevant to the question, please. I initially assumed that text below the quote was directed at someone else, but it actually meant "nevermind, ignore this post". >:(
That sounds a lot like a bag of Instant Sandbag at 1/8th the price.
Is it possible to get a long-barelled version of the Brisant with enough gauss coils to have it fire like a normal hypersonic rifle, instead of the usual ballistic arc?
(I seem to recall that the Brisant had most of its coils stripped so that the grenades were slow enough that the inventor could bounce grenades around corners and stuff)
Price? Price to convert a normal one?
Define "hypersonic". My definition is "above mach 5", and I've generally been under the impression that the gauss rifle has a muzzle velocity just under mach 3. Also, "normal hypersonic rifle" is a bit of a misnomer; off the top of my head, I can't think of a single military cartridge which is faster than 1700 m/s. So I'm gonna assume you mean "supersonic".
Spoiler: This is how I think (click to show/hide)
1t extra for a supersonic brisant. You've got ~70% the power of a GR, and get a muzzle velocity of 401 m/s. If you want it literally hypersonic, well, that's going to be pretty damn expensive because the brisant will be a little more than half as powerful as a heavy gauss cannon, with normal rounds.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 08, 2016, 12:50:48 am
Or actually you point, click, and then there's a spike of hard-light ramming the thing you just pointed at, like 'instant mass driver' except probably not as strong as a mass driver? Actually, the math of that might need to be worked out, but it's known that you can impart velocity at construct generation, up to some maximum presumably limited by the hardware, and that I think you can generate things without direct connections to the SLMG? But if so, a rangefinder and a rapidly moving spike construct ought to hurt lots of things. Assuming they're in the proper wavelength. Add a mangler bursty thing I don't know the name of that's in big game rounds for extra killing.
Also, would changing the color the SLMG and etc. use be cosmetic or a new item/researchy thing?
And did we ever get the Containment Gun? Because it's pretty much like that only it makes a weapon instead.
Post by: renegadelobster on February 08, 2016, 01:21:52 am
Post by: NAV on February 09, 2016, 01:19:20 am
Its a good gun I don't want it destroyed.
Force Infuser gun.
Spoiler: Quotes from Piecewise (click to show/hide)
Try changing ammo type to a longer, thinner, denser spike. That should give it better ballistics at such high velocities and let pierce an entire battlesuit, not just most of a battlesuit. Check price.
Can it have a full auto setting? As long as the infuser has enough charge I don't see why not.
So we have:
-Small gauss piston used to charge the force infuser.
-Automated force infuser, set to fire using 160 seconds of charge. Nothing more, nothing less.
-Can build charge indefinitely and hold an unlimited amount of charge.
-Safety will not let the gun fire if it has less than 160 seconds of charge built up.
-Frictionless smoothbore barrel that can handle 160 seconds of charge.
-Fires dense armour piercing spikes. May or may not be able to pierce all the way through a battlesuit's armour.
If you are smart you will charge it during timeskips, such as while we are stasised before a mission, then you will likely never have to charge again.
Possible customizations?:
-Change caliber to 20mm, lets you fire gauss rifle ammo
-Replace automated force infuser with standard. Lets you control the amount of force used, but uses both Exo and Con.
-More powerful charging piston, charges twice as fast.
-Disable safety: The gun will go unstable and probably kill you. You idiot.
Post by: spazyak on February 09, 2016, 05:33:51 pm
Post by: NAV on February 09, 2016, 05:37:55 pm
Post by: syvarris on February 09, 2016, 10:14:47 pm
Like, the hard-light bullets just materialize with velocity.
Or actually you point, click, and then there's a spike of hard-light ramming the thing you just pointed at, like 'instant mass driver' except probably not as strong as a mass driver? Actually, the math of that might need to be worked out, but it's known that you can impart velocity at construct generation, up to some maximum presumably limited by the hardware, and that I think you can generate things without direct connections to the SLMG? But if so, a rangefinder and a rapidly moving spike construct ought to hurt lots of things. Assuming they're in the proper wavelength. Add a mangler bursty thing I don't know the name of that's in big game rounds for extra killing.
Also, would changing the color the SLMG and etc. use be cosmetic or a new item/researchy thing?
And did we ever get the Containment Gun? Because it's pretty much like that only it makes a weapon instead.
Use bullets for your questions about bullets, please. It makes things easier for me to understand and respond to. If you don't bullet, I'll probably just give you a broad response which misses minor questions.
Said broad response is this: I can't help you. The SLMG is new tech, mostly untested, so I don't understand how it works. I don't think you can spawn things with a velocity, but I really don't know. Even if you can, I don't know how fast you can make things go, so I can't say how damaging a hardlight bullet would be. I also don't know what a SLMG's maximum range is, so I don't know if you can make anything better than a videogame shotgun. I don't know if you can change the SLMG's required colors, either.
I do know that you can automate a SLMG, though, so this gun would at least be a pure con weapon. It would also be hideously expensive, since SLMGs are expensive.
Lastly, we do have containment guns. They're in the armory.
How much would it cost to get my Number Gun covered in Milnoplate? I'm assuming 1 token, since it's pistol sized and a helmet costs 1 token.
Its a good gun I don't want it destroyed.
Force Infuser gun.Spoiler: Quotes from Piecewise (click to show/hide)
Try changing ammo type to a longer, thinner, denser spike. That should give it better ballistics at such high velocities and let pierce an entire battlesuit, not just most of a battlesuit. Check price.
Can it have a full auto setting? As long as the infuser has enough charge I don't see why not.
So we have:
-Small gauss piston used to charge the force infuser.
-Automated force infuser, set to fire using 160 seconds of charge. Nothing more, nothing less.
-Can build charge indefinitely and hold an unlimited amount of charge.
-Safety will not let the gun fire if it has less than 160 seconds of charge built up.
-Frictionless smoothbore barrel that can handle 160 seconds of charge.
-Fires dense armour piercing spikes. May or may not be able to pierce all the way through a battlesuit's armour.
If you are smart you will charge it during timeskips, such as while we are stasised before a mission, then you will likely never have to charge again.
Possible customizations?:
-Change caliber to 20mm, lets you fire gauss rifle ammo
-Replace automated force infuser with standard. Lets you control the amount of force used, but uses both Exo and Con.
-More powerful charging piston, charges twice as fast.
-Disable safety: The gun will go unstable and probably kill you. You idiot.
I'll say one token for gun armor, though you can't get real milnoplate. A full thickness plate of milnoplate is a little under four inches thick.
As to the KCC, using a different bullet shape doesn't help. Within an atmosphere, it's still going to tumble because of atmospheric ablation. Out of atmosphere, I'm gonna say hits against battlesuits (the only thing tough enough to withstand a hit) aren't going to penetrate more because the bullet is basically disintegrating on impact anyway.
Full auto is fine. I can't fathom why you'd ever need it, but you can have it anyway.
Lastly, you might not be able to get infinite power. We abstract our generators as having infinite power, but I doubt they actually do.
Current price is 5t. That's 2t for the infuser, 1t for the body and charger, 2t for the barrel. Council price is probably something closer to 20t, and I halfway agree with them on that. Just FYI.
Post by: NAV on February 09, 2016, 10:33:18 pm
I'll say one token for gun armor, though you can't get real milnoplate. A full thickness plate of milnoplate is a little under four inches thick.What's wrong with putting 4 inch thick armour on my gun?
Post by: syvarris on February 09, 2016, 10:58:22 pm
That would you could only have thick armor on three sides of the block. Grip needs to be held, keypad needs to be accessible, and firing thingy needs to be unobstructed.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 09, 2016, 11:09:30 pm
Price for above?
Post by: syvarris on February 09, 2016, 11:40:01 pm
A fairly normal machete, mostly made from mundane handwavy future space steel, except for the edge, which is made from hexbug sharpened to a monomolecular edge. Not as damaging as a monoatomic razor, but very sturdy and prone to not exploding in your face.
Price for above?
1t, maaaybe 2t.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 10, 2016, 05:32:03 am
And it can't bend. It's so sturdy it can damage things it's mounted on. So you might encounter a situation where the hex bug holds, but the sword itself breaks. Or worse, your hands break.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 11, 2016, 11:07:28 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: NAV on February 11, 2016, 12:40:20 pm
Set an automated FA to really really powerful, way more so than the gun. Then activate it without charging at all.
It "either goes unstable or can violently draw potential and kinetic energy out of the area. Mostly by tearing potential, chemical and thermal energy out of the environment."
Sorry I had to. Please don't shock me.
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 11, 2016, 12:55:19 pm
A Bomb![Schwarzenegger voice]Everybody chill![/Schwarzenegger voice]
Set an automated FA to really really powerful, way more so than the gun. Then activate it without charging at all.
It "either goes unstable or can violently draw potential and kinetic energy out of the area. Mostly by tearing potential, chemical and thermal energy out of the environment."
Sorry I had to. Please don't shock me.
*throws cryo-grenade*
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2016, 12:59:30 pm
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 11, 2016, 01:06:33 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2016, 01:12:19 pm
Then you can build them back up into a snow spessman.
Post by: Aigre Excalibur on February 12, 2016, 01:45:56 pm
How about carbon-fiber underlayers for those sharksuits. This will increase its ablative capabilities without munching the operator. A simple carbon-fabric under the armor would suffice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon
Post by: spazyak on February 13, 2016, 02:06:22 am
It would be something like this
= gauss
F force infuser.
) Activation button
==F=)
So when it impacts the button is pressed releasing the energy in the force infuser
Post by: Aigre Excalibur on February 13, 2016, 03:30:52 am
You know what I was thinking, use a precharged auto force infuser set in the middle of a gauss round set to activate a little bit after impact just to help with the penatrating ability if the guass round and the damage it can do.
It would be something like this
= gauss
F force infuser.
) Activation button
==F=)
So when it impacts the button is pressed releasing the energy in the force infuser
What you mean by "activation button" is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_fuze
(https://www.marstar.ca/images/RefLibrary/Yugoslav%20Ordnance/img30-1.jpg)
Post by: spazyak on February 13, 2016, 08:18:42 am
Post by: syvarris on February 13, 2016, 10:08:52 pm
Spoilered for length.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Length (click to show/hide)
A Bomb!
Set an automated FA to really really powerful, way more so than the gun. Then activate it without charging at all.
It "either goes unstable or can violently draw potential and kinetic energy out of the area. Mostly by tearing potential, chemical and thermal energy out of the environment."
Sorry I had to. Please don't shock me.
Don't worry, I won't shock you for using PW's strange ideas to break the game. I'll only shock you if you try and trick me. Or if you anger me.
Regardless, 2t, and I have no idea how effective or reliable this would be. I recommend you make it a brisant grenade.
More noob support stuff:
How about carbon-fiber underlayers for those sharksuits. This will increase its ablative capabilities without munching the operator. A simple carbon-fabric under the armor would suffice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon
Nikitian tried to add a hexsand lining to the inside of sharksuits a while ago, for the same reasons. Either method is a free upgrade, since both're adding a negligible amount of material, neither of which provide any real protection from anything. Sharksuits don't eat their wearer in the first place, and are already an inch thick and made of nearly solid carbon; adding a thin layer of carbon fabric won't improve their ablative protection to any notable degree.
If you want to add enough fabric that it notably improves the sharksuit's resistance to lasers, you can do that, but note that carbon fabric isn't the most efficient material you could use.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 14, 2016, 05:44:56 am
Spoiler: responses and most of the turn here (click to show/hide)
Edit: will organize different modules into their own spoilers by category, for easier reading.
Spoiler: command and control (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: raw resources/expendables/consumables (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: knowledge (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: colonists/species propagation (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: EUE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spess shups (click to show/hide)
I'm sure you or anyone foolish enough to read up to this point can come up with quite a few things I missed. Do enlighten me!
Post by: NAV on February 15, 2016, 11:41:37 am
Made new post.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 17, 2016, 12:52:47 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 17, 2016, 02:34:36 am
Can't we just configure all our Solid Light Protection Fields by default to turn off for a split second whenever the user fires a weapon?Something like Star Trek, where they have a shield frequency they use to make their weapons shoot through it?
Post by: Egan_BW on February 17, 2016, 09:25:44 am
Post by: NAV on February 17, 2016, 09:35:37 am
It reminds me of how ww1/ww2 fighter planes used to shoot machineguns through their propellers, and time the shots so it wouldn't hit the blades. Not exactly the same but similar concept.
Post by: spazyak on February 21, 2016, 11:20:30 pm
Post by: NAV on February 23, 2016, 06:11:43 pm
I want to get this thing so it can one shot a battlesuit pilot. Then I will finally be satisfied.
-Change the bullet material from iron to something much more resistant to ablation. Probably hexbug. Should also help it not shatter on impact.
-Try different bullet shapes. Musket ball, ordinary bullet, spike, egg, teardrop, etc. Something has to be the best shape at these speeds.
-Just crank up the power until it can pierce a battlesuit's cockpit. Hopefully get there before hexbug starts to ablate. Even if hexbug starts to ablate hopefully get there soon.
Also, how about an underbarrel brisant variant?
Post by: Egan_BW on February 24, 2016, 06:51:22 pm
New Deathtube time!
This one is mostly just a refit of my electroblaster which, instead of simply nerfing as normal, they decided to simply not approve because of something something redundant.
Spoiler: Less-than-lethal electrolaser sniper rifle (click to show/hide)
Giving syv a list nine items long. :P
Post by: syvarris on February 25, 2016, 03:35:47 pm
*SNIP*
The "responses" spoiler doesn't seem to need replies. I'm open to a PM discussion if you send me one, though I have a distinct feeling you already have a pretty good idea of anything I might come up with.
Spoiler: command and control (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: raw resources/expendables/consumables (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: knowledge (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: colonists/species propagation (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: EUE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spess shups (click to show/hide)
Can't we just configure all our Solid Light Protection Fields by default to turn off for a split second whenever the user fires a weapon?
Ehhh, maybe? That's really more poke thread material. I don't see any real reason why not, aside for the need for some way to detect your own gun's activation, but that should be trivial.
Also, lasers.
Force infuser gun
I want to get this thing so it can one shot a battlesuit pilot. Then I will finally be satisfied.
-Change the bullet material from iron to something much more resistant to ablation. Probably hexbug. Should also help it not shatter on impact.
-Try different bullet shapes. Musket ball, ordinary bullet, spike, egg, teardrop, etc. Something has to be the best shape at these speeds.
-Just crank up the power until it can pierce a battlesuit's cockpit. Hopefully get there before hexbug starts to ablate. Even if hexbug starts to ablate hopefully get there soon.
Also, how about an underbarrel brisant variant?
You know, I learned something new today. Beyond a point, making your projectile go faster won't actually improve penetration depth, at least not within speeds attainable while in atmosphere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth
More energy would increase damage, but I'm fairly certain you'd need to significantly penetrate the armor if you want the shock to be lethal.
Using hexbug darts helps greatly due to their excessive mass, but if you want something capable of getting reliable battlesuit kills you're going to end up with expensive ammo. Also, you'll actually reduce lethality against unarmored targets, because you'll just be poking thin holes in them. Hexbug isn't going to deform for anything short of steel.
As for the underbarrel brisant... It's difficult. You should be able to get one that has less launching power than the normal brisant, and since it would be greatly cut down it should be cheaper. But, from PW's perspective, it would perform exactly the same because he can't handle granularity.
Fuck it--balance is the council's job. 2t.
PW just okayed something in the Poke thread, and you know what that means.
New Deathtube time!
This one is mostly just a refit of my electroblaster which, instead of simply nerfing as normal, they decided to simply not approve because of something something redundant.Spoiler: Less-than-lethal electrolaser sniper rifle (click to show/hide)
Giving syv a list nine items long. :P
1.You misspelled "Will never be seen again".
2.'Kay. 1t laser. Still effective enough to boil flesh, it just doesn't do much cutting. Excrutiating pain it'll do, but you won't cut off an arm without a long wait.
3.How much longer? 2t for assault-rifle type range, 3t for sniper type range.
4.Only taser level? ...+0t, I guess. Ineffective against any real insulation, including space suits, at least until the laser's melted through.
5.I'm... fairly certain Milno's suit was just asking Feyri's suit for vitals. Even if not, that sort of technoology would be very difficult to use at significant range. +5t for the scope, works to sniper range, and only sees in the visible spectrum. Alternatively, you could hook the gun up to cameyes, but that would only work to... let's say short range. Sniper scope doesn't work against people in bulky armor, but cameyes do.
6.Okay. This could be a problem for snapshots because the gun refuses to fire until it's fully analyzed a person. It would also be a massive problem because the computer would almost certainly get false negatives, leaving its operator defenseless, but you probably realize that.
7.Okay. That's very good.
8.'Kay.
9.'Kay.
A list nine points long isn't too bad--Go look at Radio's post. He isn't even giving me real questions to answer. However, posting twice without consolidating posts is annoying...
Post by: Egan_BW on February 25, 2016, 03:51:37 pm
Post by: NAV on February 25, 2016, 04:10:55 pm
Post by: spazyak on February 25, 2016, 04:25:28 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 25, 2016, 05:18:56 pm
Spoiler: Less-than-lethal electrolaser sniper rifle (click to show/hide)
1: Yup, that's pretty much the plan.
2: Not sure how powerful the laser has to be to create the plasma channel, but if it could be lower power than that, that would be good.
3: Sniper. Like it says in the name of the weapon. :P
4: Not too worried about insulation, this is for use on defenceless civilians. (As we already have a method for electrocuting rowdy spessmen.)
5: Dunno. I was asking PW in the poke thread if this was possible and he said yes after me and Nav pointed out that quote. 5t seems like a lot for a visual-spectrum camera and a computer, but fine.
6: Fine.
7: I agree.
8: Kay.
9: Kay.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 26, 2016, 03:59:02 am
Quote
A list nine points long isn't too bad--Go look at Radio's post. He isn't even giving me real questions to answer. However, posting twice without consolidating posts is annoying...I shall henceforth be known as His Wallness, the Sultan of Prose.
Spoiler: speaking of walls (click to show/hide)
Finally, there's this little thing from the poke thread:
Fair enough. You can leave this entirely in the computer's hands then, if you want. But it's gonna at LEAST need a prime directive. Some overriding goal for its construction and management. Just in case it runs into things it has no background for.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well, thing is, in some situations it really might be better to keep the people closed in if there's lethal radiation storms outside, whereas in other said storms might be weak enough to warrant letting people outside. I'll quote something from the tinker thread to try and give you a better idea of what I mean:So, it would basically try to give the colonists as much freedom and quality of life as it can afford without endangering the long-term survival of the colony.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's why I have difficulty setting up a standard requirements list, because different universes might ask for radically unconventional base designs. From the Wikipedia page on 'Colonization of Mars':So, a list like this would be the minimal requirements for any colony, but how each item is achieved is difficult to predict.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For example, on a planet with good, livable conditions outside, the colony might decide not to build a real rec room and instead just let colonists entertain themselves outside, saving resources for other projects. But then in another universe, where due to circumstances usable space is really limited, it might decide to provide all leisure through VR machines because there just isn't any room for a real life rec room. And in a third it might decide that a regular rec room is an acceptable use of resources. But that all depends on the circumstances, which vary so wildly (at least, from what I've seen from the universes explored already) I dunno if any 'standard requirements list' would be worth anything.
If you are afraid that you won't be able to come up with a good base design for a particular universe, you could always just ask us for inspiration. Or, ask yourself the question 'what are the main difficulties and limitations for this universe? How do they relate to filling need X? How could that need still be fulfilled then?
Remember that you won't have to describe (or even work out) every colony in every universe we send these to, just when necessary.
So, I propose we work out what that 'overriding goal for its construction and management' would be in here so we can save pw's precious sanity a little, unless you really prefer I keep it directly with pw.
((I really wish we could nest spoilers like quotes, would be soooo convenient).
Post by: MidnightJaguar on February 27, 2016, 01:33:47 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: spazyak on February 27, 2016, 09:18:34 am
If done right it could have some good range and what little bit of the mixture that hasn't burned away by the time it hits the target would coat the target in flaming liquid. I think that this would be best work against unarmored foes and make hreat crowd control,
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 27, 2016, 09:22:16 am
Post by: spazyak on February 27, 2016, 09:24:05 am
We do have a flame thrower, a really good one at that. Universal chem thrower with namite loaded. Burns just about anything short of a literal alien god (though we haven't tried to torch the lurker yet, so even that might still be on the table).Oh okay,, maybe this could workas a cheaper option for the poor people. Fill the liquid container with namite.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 27, 2016, 09:39:55 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on February 28, 2016, 11:39:46 pm
Post by: syvarris on February 29, 2016, 02:54:08 pm
So how expensive and how long do you think each hexbug dart would have to be to pierce a battlesuit?
...
I don't want to answer this question. I don't know enough about the relative properties of hexbug and BS plate to make a good decision.
I'll just go out on a limb and say you need a flechette type projectile that's seven inches long, because I like that number and it should be plenty, so you should get reliable kills. Also, five minute charge time.
Let's say... four flechettes to the token. That's assuming they're fairly thick, to maximize damage even against targets who aren't behind two feet of metal. Also, they have no stabilization, and are thus inaccurate beyond closeish range. Finally, they're traveling at several km/s, but not anywhere near as fast as an equivalent metal slug, so no worries about atmospheric ablation.
You can choose to make them thinner, which'll tend to cause less damage to less heavily armored targets because more of the energy will overpenetrate through. Shouldn't change effectiveness against BSs though, because you're essentially turning their armor into more projectile mass, by dumping a crapton of energy into it. The flechettes'll be cheaper if you make them thinner.
You can also choose to give the flechettes stablizing fins, which will increase accuracy at range. That would increase cost.
Also, you can choose to run the design past the council, which will let people actually use the weapon in game, but will also significantly increase cost. It might be better as NPC equipment.
LAST THING: This gun doesn't work in alternate universes. It only works in the universe we're abandoning.
Gonna leave this ideal here, space super soaker flamethrower.
Okay... do you want me to run this post? If so, please bold it. Do you want to just suggest the tinker concept to someone else? Post in Heph OOC.
Regardless, we already have a space super soaker. It's called the Universal Chemical Thrower, and is capable of shooting napalm sufficiently hot to melt battlesuits, acid sufficiently strong to melt battlesuits in a different way, and gooop sufficiently sticky to trap battlesuits.
Spoiler: Less-than-lethal electrolaser sniper rifle (click to show/hide)
1: Yup, that's pretty much the plan.
2: Not sure how powerful the laser has to be to create the plasma channel, but if it could be lower power than that, that would be good.
3: Sniper. Like it says in the name of the weapon. :P
4: Not too worried about insulation, this is for use on defenceless civilians. (As we already have a method for electrocuting rowdy spessmen.)
5: Dunno. I was asking PW in the poke thread if this was possible and he said yes after me and Nav pointed out that quote. 5t seems like a lot for a visual-spectrum camera and a computer, but fine.
6: Fine.
7: I agree.
8: Kay.
9: Kay.
1. Don't respond to my bullets unless you have questions.
2.I don't know either, and it's difficult to find data on how powerful a laser needs to be to create a plasma channel. Also, it's difficult to find how powerful a laser needs to be to harm a person. So I'm just gonna make both numbers up and say that your laser needs to be of high enough intensity to hurt people, even if it hurts less than a hand laser.
5.It's high because spotting someone's heartbeat with a visual camera would be really, really hard. You'd need it to have excessively high definition AND a very strong computer to process the images to figure out the heartrate. I feel like it should cost even more than that, but then again cameyes are more multifunctional, much smaller, and have binocular vision.
Anything else?
QuoteA list nine points long isn't too bad--Go look at Radio's post. He isn't even giving me real questions to answer. However, posting twice without consolidating posts is annoying...I shall henceforth be known as His Wallness, the Sultan of Prose.Spoiler: speaking of walls (click to show/hide)
Finally, there's this little thing from the poke thread:Fair enough. You can leave this entirely in the computer's hands then, if you want. But it's gonna at LEAST need a prime directive. Some overriding goal for its construction and management. Just in case it runs into things it has no background for.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well, thing is, in some situations it really might be better to keep the people closed in if there's lethal radiation storms outside, whereas in other said storms might be weak enough to warrant letting people outside. I'll quote something from the tinker thread to try and give you a better idea of what I mean:So, it would basically try to give the colonists as much freedom and quality of life as it can afford without endangering the long-term survival of the colony.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's why I have difficulty setting up a standard requirements list, because different universes might ask for radically unconventional base designs. From the Wikipedia page on 'Colonization of Mars':So, a list like this would be the minimal requirements for any colony, but how each item is achieved is difficult to predict.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For example, on a planet with good, livable conditions outside, the colony might decide not to build a real rec room and instead just let colonists entertain themselves outside, saving resources for other projects. But then in another universe, where due to circumstances usable space is really limited, it might decide to provide all leisure through VR machines because there just isn't any room for a real life rec room. And in a third it might decide that a regular rec room is an acceptable use of resources. But that all depends on the circumstances, which vary so wildly (at least, from what I've seen from the universes explored already) I dunno if any 'standard requirements list' would be worth anything.
If you are afraid that you won't be able to come up with a good base design for a particular universe, you could always just ask us for inspiration. Or, ask yourself the question 'what are the main difficulties and limitations for this universe? How do they relate to filling need X? How could that need still be fulfilled then?
Remember that you won't have to describe (or even work out) every colony in every universe we send these to, just when necessary.
So, I propose we work out what that 'overriding goal for its construction and management' would be in here so we can save pw's precious sanity a little, unless you really prefer I keep it directly with pw.
((I really wish we could nest spoilers like quotes, would be soooo convenient).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was thinking of making a grenade based off the crystalline projector. It has the shape of a pineapple grenadeWith crystalline projector seed crystals set in each section of the pineapple grenade.There is aster ex in the center and when it explodes it sends the seed crystals everywhere like your standard frag grenade.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hmm. This is a pretty good idea. It'd be a great method of area denial in addition to the normal role of area murder--step on the crystals, they eat your foot.
Cost is hard to say, because it's black box tech--I don't know how crystalline projectors work. If you're essentially just copying the same design, minimum cost per grenade would be 2t, because that's the cost for a CP magazine. However, you could ask PW if you can get it cheaper because the magazine doesn't need to function with the gun--maybe the two tokens of cost are for propulsion or something.
Alternatively, the council might give you a discount, though they tend to err on the side of too expensive.
Oh, and I'll just say you make this a brisant grenade. There's no loss compared to the pineapple design, and it makes the grenade more useful.
@Syv,NAV: I just wanted to add that one-shot-ing a battlesuit with the new armor Syv has developed should be almost impossible, since hexsand can stop almost any bullet. The problem is that it can only do so once before it shatters. So you might need some sort of bullet that breaks apart or a burst of bullets for multiple simultaneous devastating offensive deep strikes that can break apart the armour before penetrating it. That, of course, doesn't take into account that piecewise might have forgotten the exact properties of hexsand.
Well, he's not trying to one-shot an assaultsuit. That's one of the primary reason I gave my design a different name. :P
In any case, he could at least two-shot an assaultsuit, assuming both shots hit near each other (which would be trivial with a two-shot burst, due to the lack of recoil). Yeah, hexbug has great resistance to kinetics, but he's shooting it with an absurdly high velocity hexbug flechette. The hexbug layers in an assaultsuit cost about the same as a layer of BS plate, and resist a little over twice as well... but an AS only has two of them, plus one layer of BS plate. The hexsand/sharkplate layers don't contribute much because even if they have great properties, they simply aren't on the level of hexbug.
Oh, and NAV? If you want your gun to be able to one-shot an assaultsuit, you only need use a higher power shot. AS armor is only nine inches thick, and its average density is only a little higher than BS armor; your obstacle is only energy, not penetration depth.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 29, 2016, 05:07:04 pm
Spoiler: It's a spoiler! (click to show/hide)
Post by: syvarris on February 29, 2016, 09:18:54 pm
Spoiler: Radio Reply (click to show/hide)
Just FYI to readers, you can join in this discussion if you want. I don't believe I have any special weight in this, and even if I did, I'm fine with just saying "they're right", even if everyone disagrees with me on some issue.
Post by: NAV on March 01, 2016, 12:29:12 pm
You can also choose to give the flechettes stablizing fins, which will increase accuracy at range. That would increase cost.Yes.
Quote
Oh, and NAV? If you want your gun to be able to one-shot an assaultsuit, you only need use a higher power shot. AS armor is only nine inches thick, and its average density is only a little higher than BS armor; your obstacle is only energy, not penetration depth.Yes!
What do you think it could do to an AoW? Killing the pilot is obviously a bad idea because the you have to deal with an unchained avatar, but crippling a limb?
Quote
Also, you can choose to run the design past the council, which will let people actually use the weapon in game, but will also significantly increase cost. It might be better as NPC equipment.Correction: It doesn't work in any of the 4 alternate universes we've tested so far. There are almost certainly infinite alternate universes where it does work.
LAST THING: This gun doesn't work in alternate universes. It only works in the universe we're abandoning.
Still, I don't like the chances of this thing ever seeing use and it's probably not worth asking the council about right now. At least it was fun to design.
"Spider Pod"
Like a tripod, but probably has more legs. Attaches to bottom of your gun. Automatically adjusts to terrain, can change height, walks when you push it.
Maybe have separate light and heavy versions for rifles and cannons respectively. Depends mostly on size and costs.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 02, 2016, 05:11:55 pm
Anyways, taking it to the Hep ooc. Not today though, bed time now.
Post by: syvarris on March 02, 2016, 09:23:24 pm
You can also choose to give the flechettes stablizing fins, which will increase accuracy at range. That would increase cost.Yes.QuoteOh, and NAV? If you want your gun to be able to one-shot an assaultsuit, you only need use a higher power shot. AS armor is only nine inches thick, and its average density is only a little higher than BS armor; your obstacle is only energy, not penetration depth.Yes!
What do you think it could do to an AoW? Killing the pilot is obviously a bad idea because the you have to deal with an unchained avatar, but crippling a limb?QuoteAlso, you can choose to run the design past the council, which will let people actually use the weapon in game, but will also significantly increase cost. It might be better as NPC equipment.Correction: It doesn't work in any of the 4 alternate universes we've tested so far. There are almost certainly infinite alternate universes where it does work.
LAST THING: This gun doesn't work in alternate universes. It only works in the universe we're abandoning.
Still, I don't like the chances of this thing ever seeing use and it's probably not worth asking the council about right now. At least it was fun to design.
"Spider Pod"
Like a tripod, but probably has more legs. Attaches to bottom of your gun. Automatically adjusts to terrain, can change height, walks when you push it.
Maybe have separate light and heavy versions for rifles and cannons respectively. Depends mostly on size and costs.
Accurized flechettes cost 1t for two. They make avatars angry and are the equivalent of stabbing a pencil deep into someone; Hurts, might be really bad if you strike a vital organ, but overall not too bad structurally. Considering Avatars feel no pain and only get angrier if you kill their one vital organ, it isn't a very good weapon for avatar hunting. Remember, this is penetrating armor with directed energy, not dumping so much energy that you're cratering things.
Spider pod... 4t. I'm comparing to the remote hand which has many more useful included items, but is much smaller as well. Yes, 4t is vastly cheaper than PW's walkabout tripod which presumably inspired this. Remember that both the walkabout and this are useless.
Post by: piecewise on March 05, 2016, 11:55:55 am
We've reached a point in the game where we're getting close enough to the end and the cessation of missions that continued invention is gonna be...well it's gonna feel awful anti-climatic if you work on some giant weapon only for the game to end a mission or two later and no one uses it. So the Tinker workshop is shutting down. And so soon after I let Sy run it too. Should have done that years ago.
However, don't leave just yet. As you know, I want to include a crafting system in the next game, so I want to hear from you tinker addicts as to what you would like to see in it? Or just name some good crafting systems you've seen elsewhere.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 05, 2016, 12:12:44 pm
For example, any person could propose putting together items A, B and C, and the gm (or co-gm tinkermaster) could say if it has any chance to work at all. But to see if it leads to a really workable product or find out unforeseen problems, one would have to actually roll to make it for the first time, and the skill level could both/either influence the chance of making it correctly or influence the difficulty level a char can work at (eg level 1 handiwork means you're limited to using 3 different items/resources at once when crafting, but level 3 handi means you could use up to 7 different things).
I wouldn't make it so that every item needs to be rolled for every time though, but make it so that when you crafted it successfully for the first time, it can then be bought from npc 'shops' standard. Whoever originally invented it would get a discount to buying it, or could still just make it themself somewhat cheaper than buying it. And perhaps we can make it so npc shops have a certain level, and said level is determined by the level of development of whatever base/outpost you are at, or perhaps limited by the type of resources that are available in the vicinity.
Basically, make it so tinker oriented chars need to have the skills to back it up (not like now where a dolt with -2 mind and -2 gen knowledge and -2 aux and handi could tinker up thermonuclear laser guided dongs), but anyone can still think about and ask about possible designs.
Post by: syvarris on March 05, 2016, 02:50:00 pm
As for shopkeepers, I don't think they should sell completed items unless those items have gotten really popular and common. That would make the whole system essentially identical to our current tinker system, just with the caveat that it's parts based rather than infinite-resources based. Instead, at most there should be NPCs with handi skill, who you can pay if you don't want to risk making something with your own -2 handi. Maybe make them charge more based on how high their handi skill is.
Of course, if you want things to be less safe you could say there's no NPCs, and that players are the only ones who can craft. Might make sense if some parts are demonic, and thus can corrupt people if mishandled.
As for systems I like... well, Fallout 4's system is pretty good, from what I've seen. Different gun parts which can be assembled into a larger whole. The system probably isn't granular enough for that. A more gamey system is the type where various parts have specific alignments; say, you can get a gun barrel, but it might be aligned to holy or unholy or fire or insanity. Then, if you mix parts from different alignments your gun might be degraded or unstable or something, but if you mix parts from one alignment, it gets a powerful effect from that. Do you assemble this gun right now, using both holy and unholy parts, because those are all you have and you need the gun now? Or do you wait until you can get holy versions of the unholy parts, making your gun entirely holy and granting it a unique effect?
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 05, 2016, 04:48:41 pm
I do like the idea of the holyness, but unsure if there should be types beyond holy and unholy/corrupt. Maybe just have items have a holyness score, the higher the better (and rarer). And maybe have it so items become more corrupt over time (like a degrading mechanism for guns in some games). But maybe make it so items can be 'cleansed' by something (eg holy water) to bring them back to their original holyness level.
Also/alternatively make it so demonic items are more powerful, but increase the 'attention' the city and its inhabitants give you, and/or increase the chance for corruption of the wielder.
Post by: syvarris on March 05, 2016, 07:51:21 pm
I do think holy shouldn't be intrinsically better than occult--rather, it should be safer, but have less power to compensate. Or perhaps holy items could only be used by pure characters--who would generally be newbies--while occult items are equal, but can be used by anyone AND advance their user's corruption. That would work well with our balancing system, no?
Post by: renegadelobster on March 05, 2016, 10:42:17 pm
Post by: AoshimaMichio on March 06, 2016, 04:24:18 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 06, 2016, 05:42:38 am
I agree pretty much completely with the above post. Having more than two alignments allows for more of a collection game, but just holy vs. occult would probably be more fun. I was really just spitballing, anyway.
I do think holy shouldn't be intrinsically better than occult--rather, it should be safer, but have less power to compensate. Or perhaps holy items could only be used by pure characters--who would generally be newbies--while occult items are equal, but can be used by anyone AND advance their user's corruption. That would work well with our balancing system, no?
One thing that could be interesting would be (like in dark souls, kinda) temporary effect you could add to a weapon, like 'oil of +2 fire damage' that only last for a single battle/x turns. You could upgrade these oils or combine them for special effects, but they're a limited resource, so you'd have to make hard decisions about when to use them or whether or not to combine them, and gives a constant feeling of scarcity and being pressured. And make it take time to combine them and apply them (and maybe certain rolls?), so you'd have to plan for encounters, and anticipating badly can be disastrous.
For people who hate these kind of decisions, maybe make it also possible to just straight up upgrade your weapons, but make that be much less cost effective (in a power per credit way) so again it comes down to making meaningful choices.
And do not let players tinker anything that they aren't going to use by themselves. Otherwise we end up in our latest state of tinker where Armory is full of player made items that nobody has ever used or purchased. The "get royalties" idea gave tinkerers entirely wrong kind of incentive. Make them pay for parts.
Yeah, depending on how things work with npc's, we'd have to think long and hard how to handle how to handle that side of tinkering. If we indeed go with something not being mass produced, but instead having to pay an npc to build it for you if you can't do it yourself (being less money efficient) you could still give the inventor some sort of bonus to building it (though perhaps only for a limited time?). If we go with the holyness level thing, perhaps the original inventor grants a little holyness bonus to anything he makes that he himself invented.
Also, whatever the currency ends up being, maybe make it so the smallest amount of money is worth much less than 1 token currently is (like, make standard mission pay something like 50 to 500 credits). This allows more granularity and makes it easier to pay other players for small favors (should stimulate inter-player economy), and leaves more room for haggling.
Post by: Parisbre56 on March 06, 2016, 12:10:57 pm
And prices/recipes don't have to be set in stone. It's a magical world. The rules of reality can change. Or the market conditions can change. Or new design flaws might appear or technological advancements might be made.
Post by: syvarris on March 06, 2016, 02:57:29 pm
I don't think you should be able to upgrade stuff after it's been made, unless upgading is really rare or difficult. I like the concept of having to search for parts to make a new, better weapon, or having to rely on luck to find something awesome. Plus, if it's easy for anyone to upgrade their equipment, it devalues the excitement when someone finds a really awesome +4 vorpal revolver of lightning.
I like the suggestion of letting the original designer being able to craft their own designs slightly better than others. I'm somewhat biased here, though, because I want to play a crafting-focused character who stays inside the city and tries to run a business. For that reason, I'd also like NPC crafters to have a price that one can undercut, so there's a good reason for players to do business between each other rather than only with NPCs.
I also very highly support more granular currency, pretty much for the same reasons Radio listed, but also because it makes it easier to only slightly undercut NPCs.
Does anyone else have suggestions for an alternate crafting system, beyond the parts and alignments? Are there any games which did things differently than usual, and it worked well? Could we steal their system?
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 06, 2016, 03:04:52 pm
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I've always hated one-use temporary buff items. Whenever they appear, I always end up hoarding them and never, ever using them. Alternatively, I just end up selling them. Others might like them though, I guess.
Oh yeah, I'm all too aware of the 'too awesome to use' syndrome, but I kinda think it can be a good gameplay mechanic. If you have to brood and think and doubt over when to use that one item you have, you are actively engaged with the world and making hard, meaningful choices that have an impact. And then as long as there is no 'obviously superior solution', different players can make different choices that match their playstyle (for example, you could choose to use your resources on things other than one use items, but at the risk of not having that extra bit of oomph when you really need it).
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I don't think you should be able to upgrade stuff after it's been made, unless upgading is really rare or difficult. I like the concept of having to search for parts to make a new, better weapon, or having to rely on luck to find something awesome. Plus, if it's easy for anyone to upgrade their equipment, it devalues the excitement when someone finds a really awesome +4 vorpal revolver of lightning.
I kinda like the idea, gives an alternative to the one time things while giving the idea of progression beyond just levels. Doesn't mean it has to be cheap or the most cost effective, but it allows things like people getting attached to a certain piece of kit they then keep upgrading to keep it somewhat on par with other char's new fancy toys, even though there might be a better option available. Or maybe make it so you can 'upgrade' things to be different instead of just more powerful/plain better to match a playstyle (eg mod rifle to get higher damage but lower range, mod sword to be lighter for small dex bonus but damage penalty).
Post by: syvarris on March 06, 2016, 03:26:53 pm
I still dislike being able to give flat upgrades to things, because it makes equipment less interesting. I do like mere modifications, though. Being able to optimize for one role at the loss of other roles is a very good mechanic, IMO.